UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: colsville on April 18, 2025, 01:03:34 PM
-
Anyone know how Jeremy Bamber's CCRC application is going?
I randomly searched the Guardian Website today, and it turns out that only yesterday (17 Apr) They were saying that the results from the CCRC were to ne made public...at least that's how I interpreted the words of the Guardian journalist Simon Hattenstone.
As we know, Simon Hattenstone, along with the now dead eric allison, has promoted Jeremy Bambers faked evidence and relentless lies, over the last 15 - 20 years, as truth.
So nothing that Simon Hattenstone says can be trusted.
Of course, Bambers application will be thrown out, as all information published by Simon Hattenstone and other Jeremy Bamber supporters regarding this current application, has pointed to the 'new evidence' being nothing of the sort, and is actually a re-hash of what's gone before.
And even what has gone before was never actually new evidence or even evidence at all.
And we know what the CCRC said about that last application in 2012...Let's just remind ourselves:
Quoted from the Independant newspaper:
Giving its reasons in a 109-page statement, it said: "Matters of pure speculation or unsubstantiated allegation constitute neither new evidence nor new argument capable of giving rise to a real possibility that the Court of Appeal will quash a conviction.
"Neither can such a real possibility arise from the accumulation of multiple unsubstantiated allegations.
"The Commission is satisfied that nothing in the submissions made by and on behalf of Mr Bamber or any issues raised in the recent documentary can, either individually or cumulatively, give rise to a real possibility that the Court of Appeal would find any of Mr Bamber's convictions to be unsafe."
And the current application seems to be a re-submission of the previous application, just submitting physically different pieces of paper, to try and justify it being 'new evidence'.
Obviously Jeremy Bambers hopeless and hapless campaign team will go quiet on this when the decision goes against him...and pretty much everything they do now is clouded in a fuggy haze of deception and misdirection anyway.
So does anyone out there have any actual facts as to what's going on?
-
I don't think anything has changed, certainly there is no new evidence being produced which speaks for itself.
I'm afraid an all life term means exactly that for dear Jeremy.
-
So you dont believe the Aga burned Nevills back then, John?
-
So you dont believe the Aga burned Nevills back then, John?
I doubt Sheila wrestled Big Nev to the ground and overpowered him, with her being 7st wet through.
-
I doubt Sheila wrestled Big Nev to the ground and overpowered him, with her being 7st wet through.
Absolutely no way indeed.
-
I doubt Sheila wrestled Big Nev to the ground and overpowered him, with her being 7st wet through.
So what do you think burned Nevills back then,General?
-
So what do you think burned Nevills back then,General?
Well, I haven't been down this rabbit hole for quite some time, but it was August, so why was the aga used? To boil a kettle? Big Nev usually had a G&T if memory serves.
Was it warm to the touch upon entry?
What did the burn look like? Where exactly was it?
All relevant questions if you can answer my question - how did Sheila overpower Nev? It wasn't coersion, as a serious struggle had taken place and she had a fresh looking nighty on.
Chronologically you need to answer my question first.
-
Well, I haven't been down this rabbit hole for quite some time, but it was August, so why was the aga used? To boil a kettle? Big Nev usually had a G&T if memory serves.
Was it warm to the touch upon entry?
What did the burn look like? Where exactly was it?
All relevant questions if you can answer my question - how did Sheila overpower Nev? It wasn't coersion, as a serious struggle had taken place and she had a fresh looking nighty on.
Chronologically you need to answer my question first.
OK,i'll give you my opinion about the burns to Nevills back, General, why I think the Aga made them and how this evidence may exonerate Jeremy Bamber.
The truth is, an adequate explanation for the burns was never found, nor indeed why the killer would inflict them anyway. Torture was suggested, checking for signs of life, or simply when Nevill was frog marched to the kitchen, none of which make much logical sense really!
The marks, or two of them at least were roughly the same size as the rifle barell so it was just assumed this was what made the marks, after all, no one could come up with a better explanation at the time.
But then, after many years, Yvonne Hartley and JB himself came up with the idea that the Aga may have been responsible for the marks, after all, it was the only other source of heat in the house.
So they asked Philip Boyce to look into the possibility of the Aga burning Nevills back, and lo and behold if someone was lying on their side with their back against the Aga the handle and other protruding parts could cause burn marks remarkably similar in size and shape to those found on Nevills back.
The spacings matched too, allowing for Nevills neck jutting forward where the top larger burn was made, so could this really be coincidence? I mean, what would the odds be of someone intentionally burning Nevills back and the marks almost matching exactly those which could be inflicted by the Aga?
Surely it is far more logical that the marks occurred accidentally rather than any other suggestion that has been made?
Now to answer your other questions, General!
Yes, I believe it has been claimed that Nevill often showered and changed into his pyjamas down stairs before having a G and T in the sitting room before retiring to bed,so this may have been where he was when Sheila came down stairs to get the rifle.
Oh yes, you ask why the Aga was on! Well Yvonne explained that the Aga was on 24/7, it was the only source of heating and hot water, not sure if there was another cooker in the kitchen or not. Anyway, a lot of hot water would be needed at least with the extra guests in the house,besides, I think the temperature guage can be seen in the crime scene photos.
So, Nevill hears Sheila in the kitchen and goes to investigate, and I believe that it is at this time that he ends up lying beside the Aga burning his back!
You see, you ask how Sheila overpowered Nevill, General, and the answer is she simply took him by surprise by whacking him on the head with the butt of the rifle, so ferociously that it broke the stock of the rifle and caused fractures to Nevills skull. This may have happened quite unexpectedly after a short argument/conversation around midnight sending Nevill to the floor in front of the Aga where his back would be burned until around 3.00 when a shaken brain injured Nevill would regain conciousness and frantically phone JB before staggering up stairs.meanwhile Sheila had killed the family unhindered and Nevill would be next!
I put this theory to the JB campaign over on Twitter, needless to say they disagree, they believe Nevill was dead while lying against the Aga and was moved to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
Anyway, whatever happened, surely the Aga theory is important 'new evidence' if accepted by the CCRC?
-
OK,i'll give you my opinion about the burns to Nevills back, General, why I think the Aga made them and how this evidence may exonerate Jeremy Bamber.
The truth is, an adequate explanation for the burns was never found, nor indeed why the killer would inflict them anyway. Torture was suggested, checking for signs of life, or simply when Nevill was frog marched to the kitchen, none of which make much logical sense really!
The marks, or two of them at least were roughly the same size as the rifle barell so it was just assumed this was what made the marks, after all, no one could come up with a better explanation at the time.
But then, after many years, Yvonne Hartley and JB himself came up with the idea that the Aga may have been responsible for the marks, after all, it was the only other source of heat in the house.
So they asked Philip Boyce to look into the possibility of the Aga burning Nevills back, and lo and behold if someone was lying on their side with their back against the Aga the handle and other protruding parts could cause burn marks remarkably similar in size and shape to those found on Nevills back.
The spacings matched too, allowing for Nevills neck jutting forward where the top larger burn was made, so could this really be coincidence? I mean, what would the odds be of someone intentionally burning Nevills back and the marks almost matching exactly those which could be inflicted by the Aga?
Surely it is far more logical that the marks occurred accidentally rather than any other suggestion that has been made?
Now to answer your other questions, General!
Yes, I believe it has been claimed that Nevill often showered and changed into his pyjamas down stairs before having a G and T in the sitting room before retiring to bed,so this may have been where he was when Sheila came down stairs to get the rifle.
Oh yes, you ask why the Aga was on! Well Yvonne explained that the Aga was on 24/7, it was the only source of heating and hot water, not sure if there was another cooker in the kitchen or not. Anyway, a lot of hot water would be needed at least with the extra guests in the house,besides, I think the temperature guage can be seen in the crime scene photos.
So, Nevill hears Sheila in the kitchen and goes to investigate, and I believe that it is at this time that he ends up lying beside the Aga burning his back!
You see, you ask how Sheila overpowered Nevill, General, and the answer is she simply took him by surprise by whacking him on the head with the butt of the rifle, so ferociously that it broke the stock of the rifle and caused fractures to Nevills skull. This may have happened quite unexpectedly after a short argument/conversation around midnight sending Nevill to the floor in front of the Aga where his back would be burned until around 3.00 when a shaken brain injured Nevill would regain conciousness and frantically phone JB before staggering up stairs.meanwhile Sheila had killed the family unhindered and Nevill would be next!
I put this theory to the JB campaign over on Twitter, needless to say they disagree, they believe Nevill was dead while lying against the Aga and was moved to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
Anyway, whatever happened, surely the Aga theory is important 'new evidence' if accepted by the CCRC?
Sheila surprised Nev with the butt of the rifle? This isn't the movies, kid, Sheila still couldn't summon enough leverage to make a dent in Big Nev, even blind-sided, it would be nothing more than a minor inconvenience, then he'd wrench the rifle off her and pick her up by the neck with the other hand. She was a waif, not a Bulgarian Shotputter.
Try again, this time with a remotely plausible explanation of how she managed to subdue the hulking Nev.
-
Sheila surprised Nev with the butt of the rifle? This isn't the movies, kid, Sheila still couldn't summon enough leverage to make a dent in Big Nev, even blind-sided, it would be nothing more than a minor inconvenience, then he'd wrench the rifle off her and pick her up by the neck with the other hand. She was a waif, not a Bulgarian Shotputter.
Try again, this time with a remotely plausible explanation of how she managed to subdue the hulking Nev.
OK, thanks, General!
Now you can answer my question as promised!
What do you think burned Nevills back?
-
OK, thanks, General!
Now you can answer my question as promised!
What do you think burned Nevills back?
OK, it's been a while. Where's the pics?
Was the aga the only source of hot water? I can't remember.
Let's be clear - he definitely shot two wee boys at point blank range while they slept, the poor little fckers. But, given the appalling handling of the crime scene and case generally, there was a miscarriage of justice - due process was not provided in my opinion.
I hope he dies of syphillus, the horrible c..t.
-
OK, it's been a while. Where's the pics?
Was the aga the only source of hot water? I can't remember.
Let's be clear - he definitely shot two wee boys at point blank range while they slept, the poor little fckers. But, given the appalling handling of the crime scene and case generally, there was a miscarriage of justice - due process was not provided in my opinion.
I hope he dies of syphillus, the horrible c..t.
Pics of what, General? the burns on Nevills back?
You can find them in several places on the web in association with Philip Boyces Aga theory, there's a short youtube video and an extended video on a site called Bamber versus the doc maker, although you have to subscribe to that one.
The campaign team have posted on Twitter recently regarding Boyce's evidence too,oh and Yvonne Hartley did a half hour podcast a while back explaining the Aga burns in detail! So plenty out there to look at regarding the burns, General, have you seen any of it? If not, you may wish to watch some of it before deciding if Boyce is correct or not. It may change your view of the case and Jeremy Bamber!
Thing is, there isn't much point discussing scenarios where we accept the Aga burned Nevills back if you dont believe this actually happened, is there?
-
OK, it's been a while. Where's the pics?
Was the aga the only source of hot water? I can't remember.
Let's be clear - he definitely shot two wee boys at point blank range while they slept, the poor little fckers. But, given the appalling handling of the crime scene and case generally, there was a miscarriage of justice - due process was not provided in my opinion.
I hope he dies of syphillus, the horrible c..t.
I wouldn't think so. Aga's are normally turned off during the summer months so there would need to be alternatives for hot water.
Just an aside, apropos of nothing! I can't believe that, in the middle of this current heatwave, I suspect it maybe snowing!!!
-
Pics of what, General? the burns on Nevills back?
You can find them in several places on the web in association with Philip Boyces Aga theory, there's a short youtube video and an extended video on a site called Bamber versus the doc maker, although you have to subscribe to that one.
The campaign team have posted on Twitter recently regarding Boyce's evidence too,oh and Yvonne Hartley did a half hour podcast a while back explaining the Aga burns in detail! So plenty out there to look at regarding the burns, General, have you seen any of it? If not, you may wish to watch some of it before deciding if Boyce is correct or not. It may change your view of the case and Jeremy Bamber!
Thing is, there isn't much point discussing scenarios where we accept the Aga burned Nevills back if you dont believe this actually happened, is there?
Nothing will change my mind, save for some hitherto unseen groundbreaking evidence surfacing.
Nev's burns were probably incurred peri-mortem, perhaps Bamber, having subdued him sufficiently, prodded him to check if he was still alive, then turned him over and delivered a coup de grace.
Bamber mistakenly turned this in to a two person whodunnit with his dodgy phonecalls. If he'd have given it some more thought he could have introduced a third person, giving rise to reasonable doubt, but he wasn't as clever as he thought he was. Even the utterly idiotic, incompetent Essex police somehow managed to get to the truth of his simple ruse eventually. Using the rifle was a necessity, but also his undoing; he wasn't able to introduce a third party, as they wouldn't have access to it.
As an aside, that rifle is almost as long as Sheila was tall. I'm exaggerating, but wee Sheila wielding a metre long weapon weighing about 4kg that requires the casual user to aim down the barrel in the confines of those rooms - and never missed. She should have considered taking it up professionally.
-
Nothing will change my mind, save for some hitherto unseen groundbreaking evidence surfacing.
Nev's burns were probably incurred peri-mortem, perhaps Bamber, having subdued him sufficiently, prodded him to check if he was still alive, then turned him over and delivered a coup de grace.
Bamber mistakenly turned this in to a two person whodunnit with his dodgy phonecalls. If he'd have given it some more thought he could have introduced a third person, giving rise to reasonable doubt, but he wasn't as clever as he thought he was. Even the utterly idiotic, incompetent Essex police somehow managed to get to the truth of his simple ruse eventually. Using the rifle was a necessity, but also his undoing; he wasn't able to introduce a third party, as they wouldn't have access to it.
As an aside, that rifle is almost as long as Sheila was tall. I'm exaggerating, but wee Sheila wielding a metre long weapon weighing about 4kg that requires the casual user to aim down the barrel in the confines of those rooms - and never missed. She should have considered taking it up professionally.
Well Boyce's Aga theory just may be that groundbreaking evidence if you accept his findings, yet you prefer to dismiss his evidence in favour of far less logical reasons for the burns, Genaral!
If I read you correctly, Nevill was slumped over the scuttle in the kitchen, motionless, after being shot in the face and body, and was dying or dead, and that rather than make sure with a head shot like the other victims, Bamber opted to check for signs of life instead by burning Nevills back and checking for a reaction?
So Bamber heats something up and burns Nevills back, ist burn-no reaction, 2nd burn-again no reaction, oh well, maybe third time lucky? yes sure enough, with the 3rd burn Nevill reacts in some way so Bamber shoots him four times in the head! Not once, four times!!
Oh and it just happens that the three random burns can be more or less replicated by the Aga knobs!
In all honesty isn't it simpler just to accept that the Aga did indeed cause the burns, General?
Isn't that the logical thing to do?
Funnily enough, I found a thread on Red here from around 2012 in which the burns to Nevills back were discussed, this was obviously many years before the Boyce evidence. And in this thread, John and Puglove pointed out that the three burns were different sizes and shapes, not sure what point they were making at the time, but obviously if the marks were indeed made by 'different' parts of the Aga then of course they wont look the same in appearance, will they?? As opposed to three burns made by the 'same' object!
Wont you consider the possibility that Boyce has hit the nail on the head , General?
-
So what do you think burned Nevills back then,General?
Bamber burned Nevill's back with a metal object.
His 2012 CCRC application says this was done with the rifle minus silencer.
Experts say it would take 5 minutes to heat this on an Aga plate.
Most people think this was to check for signs of life.
-
OK,i'll give you my opinion about the burns to Nevills back, General, why I think the Aga made them and how this evidence may exonerate Jeremy Bamber.
The truth is, an adequate explanation for the burns was never found, nor indeed why the killer would inflict them anyway. Torture was suggested, checking for signs of life, or simply when Nevill was frog marched to the kitchen, none of which make much logical sense really!
The marks, or two of them at least were roughly the same size as the rifle barell so it was just assumed this was what made the marks, after all, no one could come up with a better explanation at the time.
But then, after many years, Yvonne Hartley and JB himself came up with the idea that the Aga may have been responsible for the marks, after all, it was the only other source of heat in the house.
So they asked Philip Boyce to look into the possibility of the Aga burning Nevills back, and lo and behold if someone was lying on their side with their back against the Aga the handle and other protruding parts could cause burn marks remarkably similar in size and shape to those found on Nevills back.
The spacings matched too, allowing for Nevills neck jutting forward where the top larger burn was made, so could this really be coincidence? I mean, what would the odds be of someone intentionally burning Nevills back and the marks almost matching exactly those which could be inflicted by the Aga?
Surely it is far more logical that the marks occurred accidentally rather than any other suggestion that has been made?
Now to answer your other questions, General!
Yes, I believe it has been claimed that Nevill often showered and changed into his pyjamas down stairs before having a G and T in the sitting room before retiring to bed,so this may have been where he was when Sheila came down stairs to get the rifle.
Oh yes, you ask why the Aga was on! Well Yvonne explained that the Aga was on 24/7, it was the only source of heating and hot water, not sure if there was another cooker in the kitchen or not. Anyway, a lot of hot water would be needed at least with the extra guests in the house,besides, I think the temperature guage can be seen in the crime scene photos.
So, Nevill hears Sheila in the kitchen and goes to investigate, and I believe that it is at this time that he ends up lying beside the Aga burning his back!
You see, you ask how Sheila overpowered Nevill, General, and the answer is she simply took him by surprise by whacking him on the head with the butt of the rifle, so ferociously that it broke the stock of the rifle and caused fractures to Nevills skull. This may have happened quite unexpectedly after a short argument/conversation around midnight sending Nevill to the floor in front of the Aga where his back would be burned until around 3.00 when a shaken brain injured Nevill would regain conciousness and frantically phone JB before staggering up stairs.meanwhile Sheila had killed the family unhindered and Nevill would be next!
I put this theory to the JB campaign over on Twitter, needless to say they disagree, they believe Nevill was dead while lying against the Aga and was moved to the chair/scuttle upon entry.
Anyway, whatever happened, surely the Aga theory is important 'new evidence' if accepted by the CCRC?
The CT will not agree with your theory.
It does not support the narrative they are trying to project - the police disturbed the crime scene pre photos but have never said they did.
-
Nothing will change my mind, save for some hitherto unseen groundbreaking evidence surfacing.
Nev's burns were probably incurred peri-mortem, perhaps Bamber, having subdued him sufficiently, prodded him to check if he was still alive, then turned him over and delivered a coup de grace.
Bamber mistakenly turned this in to a two person whodunnit with his dodgy phonecalls. If he'd have given it some more thought he could have introduced a third person, giving rise to reasonable doubt, but he wasn't as clever as he thought he was. Even the utterly idiotic, incompetent Essex police somehow managed to get to the truth of his simple ruse eventually. Using the rifle was a necessity, but also his undoing; he wasn't able to introduce a third party, as they wouldn't have access to it.
As an aside, that rifle is almost as long as Sheila was tall. I'm exaggerating, but wee Sheila wielding a metre long weapon weighing about 4kg that requires the casual user to aim down the barrel in the confines of those rooms - and never missed. She should have considered taking it up professionally.
Agree it was to check for signs of life. No point torturing a man who at best was unconcious and at worst dead.
-
Well Boyce's Aga theory just may be that groundbreaking evidence if you accept his findings, yet you prefer to dismiss his evidence in favour of far less logical reasons for the burns, Genaral!
If I read you correctly, Nevill was slumped over the scuttle in the kitchen, motionless, after being shot in the face and body, and was dying or dead, and that rather than make sure with a head shot like the other victims, Bamber opted to check for signs of life instead by burning Nevills back and checking for a reaction?
So Bamber heats something up and burns Nevills back, ist burn-no reaction, 2nd burn-again no reaction, oh well, maybe third time lucky? yes sure enough, with the 3rd burn Nevill reacts in some way so Bamber shoots him four times in the head! Not once, four times!!
Oh and it just happens that the three random burns can be more or less replicated by the Aga knobs!
In all honesty isn't it simpler just to accept that the Aga did indeed cause the burns, General?
Isn't that the logical thing to do?
Funnily enough, I found a thread on Red here from around 2012 in which the burns to Nevills back were discussed, this was obviously many years before the Boyce evidence. And in this thread, John and Puglove pointed out that the three burns were different sizes and shapes, not sure what point they were making at the time, but obviously if the marks were indeed made by 'different' parts of the Aga then of course they wont look the same in appearance, will they?? As opposed to three burns made by the 'same' object!
Wont you consider the possibility that Boyce has hit the nail on the head , General?
I've let you ramble on to permit you to debunk your own case.
The knobs, Joe, the knobs. I assume they're Bakelite; extemely poor heat conductor and used for a reason - they don't get hot, otherwise the user would burn their hands every time they touched them.
Can anyone think of something that would be hot enough to superficially burn skin in that kitchen during the attack?
....and you still haven't explained how 7st 6lb Bambi managed to subdue the farm-fit 15st Nevill.
-
Bamber burned Nevill's back with a metal object.
His 2012 CCRC application says this was done with the rifle minus silencer.
Experts say it would take 5 minutes to heat this on an Aga plate.
Most people think this was to check for signs of life.
Well as I said Adam,if it was the rifle barrel why weren't the three marks identical instead of various shapes and sizes? Even John and Puglove pointed this out years ago!
No no, the Aga evidence holds up, no question!
-
I've let you ramble on to permit you to debunk your own case.
The knobs, Joe, the knobs. I assume they're Bakelite; extemely poor heat conductor and used for a reason - they don't get hot, otherwise the user would burn their hands every time they touched them.
Can anyone think of something that would be hot enough to superficially burn skin in that kitchen during the attack?
....and you still haven't explained how 7st 6lb Bambi managed to subdue the farm-fit 15st Nevill.
I can tell you a little bit about Aga's as we have one exactly the same model as the Bamber's. The only difference is that theirs was used to heat water. Their kitchen, like ours, appears fairly cramped. Aga's throw out vast amounts of heat. Ours runs 24/7 because it's out primary cooking method. The Bamber's had alternative means of cooking, ergo, it seems reasonable that during summer months, the Aga would be turned off and an emersion heater used to provide hot water.
So how hot do Aga's get? I don't imagine you need to be told that it's not a good idea to put one's hands on the hot plates, even though one is less hot than the other. The hot plate covers are hot enough to air small items of clothes. However, Boyce and his crew weren't dealing with the top, they were dealing with the oven, of which there are two, a roasting oven at the top and a slow oven at the bottom. I can open the slow oven door without oven gloves, and providing the handles of the dish aren't metal, I can remove a cooked item without them. Under no circumstances could I touch the handle of the roasting oven without protection.
The various knobs/handles to which Boyce refers to as having made burns? I have measured ours numerous times. It's not just about the distance from one handle to another. They not only vary in shape, but they also stand proud of another. The 'body' Boyce uses for his experiment is, obviously! very much alive so thus is able to 'adjust' himself to fit against the handles. Something Nevill wouldn't have been capable of doing. My calculations -for what they're worth- show the distance between handles doesn't relate to the distance shown on the pigskin experiment, and burning would only apply if the Aga was hot.
I hope this is useful.
-
The CT will not agree with your theory.
It does not support the narrative they are trying to project - the police disturbed the crime scene pre photos but have never said they did.
I know the campaign narrative is different, Adam!
But not as to 'what' caused the burns, only as to 'when' they were formed!
-
Agree it was to check for signs of life. No point torturing a man who at best was unconcious and at worst dead.
Why three burns and then a further 'four' shots, Adam?
That doesn't make much sense to me!
-
I've let you ramble on to permit you to debunk your own case.
The knobs, Joe, the knobs. I assume they're Bakelite; extemely poor heat conductor and used for a reason - they don't get hot, otherwise the user would burn their hands every time they touched them.
Can anyone think of something that would be hot enough to superficially burn skin in that kitchen during the attack?
....and you still haven't explained how 7st 6lb Bambi managed to subdue the farm-fit 15st Nevill.
One knob, which looks like metal to me, and two other parts which are not designed to be handled, General!
Why couldn't Sheila bash Nevill on the head with the rifle? You talk as if she was completely immobile, no weight lifting champion but i'm sure she could swing a rifle in a psychotic state surely? One unexpected blow and Nevill was out cold with a fractured skull. No problem whatsoever!
-
I can tell you a little bit about Aga's as we have one exactly the same model as the Bamber's. The only difference is that theirs was used to heat water. Their kitchen, like ours, appears fairly cramped. Aga's throw out vast amounts of heat. Ours runs 24/7 because it's out primary cooking method. The Bamber's had alternative means of cooking, ergo, it seems reasonable that during summer months, the Aga would be turned off and an emersion heater used to provide hot water.
So how hot do Aga's get? I don't imagine you need to be told that it's not a good idea to put one's hands on the hot plates, even though one is less hot than the other. The hot plate covers are hot enough to air small items of clothes. However, Boyce and his crew weren't dealing with the top, they were dealing with the oven, of which there are two, a roasting oven at the top and a slow oven at the bottom. I can open the slow oven door without oven gloves, and providing the handles of the dish aren't metal, I can remove a cooked item without them. Under no circumstances could I touch the handle of the roasting oven without protection.
The various knobs/handles to which Boyce refers to as having made burns? I have measured ours numerous times. It's not just about the distance from one handle to another. They not only vary in shape, but they also stand proud of another. The 'body' Boyce uses for his experiment is, obviously! very much alive so thus is able to 'adjust' himself to fit against the handles. Something Nevill wouldn't have been capable of doing. My calculations -for what they're worth- show the distance between handles doesn't relate to the distance shown on the pigskin experiment, and burning would only apply if the Aga was hot.
I hope this is useful.
So, do the parts that Boyce refers to get hot, April? Thats all we want to know!
I imagine however they do, else his experiment would be a non starter as it were!
-
One knob, which looks like metal to me, and two other parts which are not designed to be handled, General!
Why couldn't Sheila bash Nevill on the head with the rifle? You talk as if she was completely immobile, no weight lifting champion but i'm sure she could swing a rifle in a psychotic state surely? One unexpected blow and Nevill was out cold with a fractured skull. No problem whatsoever!
So all one has to do is prove she was having a psychotic episode. Something she was adequately medicated against such occurring.
-
So all one has to do is prove she was having a psychotic episode. Something she was adequately medicated against such occurring.
In my opinion, all one has to do is prove that the Aga burned Nevills back, April, then everything else falls into place for a guilty Sheila!
-
So, do the parts that Boyce refers to get hot, April? Thats all we want to know!
I imagine however they do, else his experiment would be a non starter as it were!
Obviously he used a hot Aga for the experiment or there'd have been no point in doing it! If the Bamber's Aga was on, ie cooking mode, it would be hot. What we don't know is how hot/warm/tepid/cool/cold was the Bamber Aga.
-
In my opinion, all one has to do is prove that the Aga burned Nevills back, April, then everything else falls into place for a guilty Sheila!
Without knowing if it was on, how is such possible? It might equally be said that they were freezer burns. Ice burns in the same way as heat.
-
I know the campaign narrative is different, Adam!
But not as to 'what' caused the burns, only as to 'when' they were formed!
Thought the CT are saying the 'what' is the aga caused the burns.
-
Well as I said Adam,if it was the rifle barrel why weren't the three marks identical instead of various shapes and sizes? Even John and Puglove pointed this out years ago!
No no, the Aga evidence holds up, no question!
Believe each burn would be less profound the colder the burning instrument got. It would not stay hot for long.
Would also depend on how hard each burn was pressed onto Nevill's skin.
-
Why three burns and then a further 'four' shots, Adam?
That doesn't make much sense to me!
The burns could have been at any time between shots 5-8. Or after shot 8.
Either in quick succession or individually.
-
The burns could have been at any time between shots 5-8. Or after shot 8.
Either in quick succession or individually.
Ha ha! Maybe you should delete that post, Adam!
-
Believe each burn would be less profound the colder the burning instrument got. It would not stay hot for long.
Would also depend on how hard each burn was pressed onto Nevill's skin.
Maybe, Adam,maybe! But they would still all be the same size and shape as pictured in Boyces 2012 experiment, or whenever it was!
-
Without knowing if it was on, how is such possible? It might equally be said that they were freezer burns. Ice burns in the same way as heat.
Does your Aga have a temperature guage, April?
I think the CT are claiming you can see the Bamber one in the crime scene photos!
-
Thought the CT are saying the 'what' is the aga caused the burns.
Yes, that is what I said Adam.
I fully agree that the Aga caused the burns, but not between 3,30-7.35!
I think they were caused sometime between 12.00 midnight-3.00!
-
Does your Aga have a temperature guage, April?
I think the CT are claiming you can see the Bamber one in the crime scene photos!
I don't know one which doesn't, Snow! They're more thermometers than temperature guages because the temperature can't be controlled from them. If the Bamber's was in the position as ours -and being the same model, I've no reason to think otherwise- of course it would have been visible in CS pictures. Quite whether it's readable is another question! If you've ever seen the old fashioned thermometers nurses used, you'll know what I'm talking about! Magnifying glasses help!!
-
I don't know one which doesn't, Snow! They're more thermometers than temperature guages because the temperature can't be controlled from them. If the Bamber's was in the position as ours -and being the same model, I've no reason to think otherwise- of course it would have been visible in CS pictures. Quite whether it's readable is another question! If you've ever seen the old fashioned thermometers nurses used, you'll know what I'm talking about! Magnifying glasses help!!
I'll take a look at the photos then, April!
Its Joe remember! 8(0(*
-
I'll take a look at the photos then, April!
Its Joe remember! 8(0(*
Ooops! Sorry for the typo, Joe!
-
I'll take a look at the photos then, April!
Its Joe remember! 8(0(*
-
Bamber did have the time to burn Nevill's back.
He only had time restrictions after calling his cottage from WHF. If he did this. The long gap between him ringing Julie and the police shows he was in no rush.
The judge mentioned Sheila's 38 minute time restriction to get everything done from 3.10am. Some supporters say Nevill was speaking to the police from 3.26am - 3.36am which would have given Sheila 12 minutes. So very limited time to fit in burning Nevill's back.
-
Bamber did have the time to burn Nevill's back.
He only had time restrictions after calling his cottage from WHF. If he did this. The long gap between him ringing Julie and the police shows he was in no rush.
The judge mentioned Sheila's 38 minute time restriction to get everything done from 3.10am. Some supporters say Nevill was speaking to the police from 3.26am - 3.36am which would have given Sheila 12 minutes. So very limited time to fit in burning Nevill's back.
Mostly everything was already done by Sheila between 12.00-3.00 while Nevill was lying against the Aga, Adam!
No one needed 'any' time to burn Nevills back, it happened accidentally!
-
Mostly everything was already done by Sheila between 12.00-3.00 while Nevill was lying against the Aga, Adam!
No one needed 'any' time to burn Nevills back, it happened accidentally!
It's all very well to keep posting tiny little snippets of theories, but none of them holds water until you can produce feasible and viable back stories.
So, according to you, we have Nevill accidentally falling in a convenient enough position, against the Aga, so deeply unconscious already that he fails to move away from a heat we don't even have evidence of, but managing to rise with enough clarity of mind to phone JB and police, presumably stopping to look up their number, just like his son, but not phoning 999?
-
Mostly everything was already done by Sheila between 12.00-3.00 while Nevill was lying against the Aga, Adam!
No one needed 'any' time to burn Nevills back, it happened accidentally!
Oh yes, Sheila did everything while Nevill was knocked out between 12.00pm & 3.00am.
-
It's all very well to keep posting tiny little snippets of theories, but none of them holds water until you can produce feasible and viable back stories.
So, according to you, we have Nevill accidentally falling in a convenient enough position, against the Aga, so deeply unconscious already that he fails to move away from a heat we don't even have evidence of, but managing to rise with enough clarity of mind to phone JB and police, presumably stopping to look up their number, just like his son, but not phoning 999?
I believe this is the only theory that fits unless you believe that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle after entering the Whitehouse, April!
Someone with a fractured skull would be unaware they were being slowly burned by the Aga, and their actions upon recovering conciousness would be muddled and unpredictable.
-
Oh yes, Sheila did everything while Nevill was knocked out between 12.00pm & 3.00am.
Yes, that is correct, Adam!
It is the only scenario that fits if we accept that the Aga caused the burns, else the police moved Nevill upon entry of course, take your pick!
-
I believe this is the only theory that fits unless you believe that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle after entering the Whitehouse, April!
Someone with a fractured skull would be unaware they were being slowly burned by the Aga, and their actions upon recovering conciousness would be muddled and unpredictable.
So muddled and unpredictable that he took the time to clean his blood from the Aga before looking up phone number and calling JB and police? Just a thought! How, with a smashed jaw and missing teeth? did he manage to talk to them without them realizing he was crippled by his injuries?
-
So muddled and unpredictable that he took the time to clean his blood from the Aga before looking up phone number and calling JB and police? Just a thought! How, with a smashed jaw and missing teeth? did he manage to talk to them without them realizing he was crippled by his injuries?
No no, April you're jumping forward in the scenario!
Nevill had no gunshot wounds inflcted on him while he lay against the Aga, only a beating from the rifle!
So no blood on the Aga and quite capable of speech on coming round again!
The gunshot wounds came later as a shaken brain injured Nevill accended the stairs to meet Sheila!
-
No no, April you're jumping forward in the scenario!
Nevill had no gunshot wounds inflcted on him while he lay against the Aga, only a beating from the rifle!
So no blood on the Aga and quite capable of speech on coming round again!
The gunshot wounds came later as a shaken brain injured Nevill accended the stairs to meet Sheila!
Why when she?d blithely shot everyone else did she not shoot her father when he lay on the ground propped up by the Aga?
-
No no, April you're jumping forward in the scenario!
Nevill had no gunshot wounds inflcted on him while he lay against the Aga, only a beating from the rifle!
So no blood on the Aga and quite capable of speech on coming round again!
The gunshot wounds came later as a shaken brain injured Nevill accended the stairs to meet Sheila!
Then I support the poster who claimed that at 5'7" and weighing 8.5 stone, a fully medicated and drowsy Sheila, who's lifestyle was more couch potato than athlete, wouldn't have been able to overpower her fit, 6'4" father. I think you need to brush up on the effects of concussion!
-
Why when she?d blithely shot everyone else did she not shoot her father when he lay on the ground propped up by the Aga?
Exactly! It appears that her aim was to kill everyone and in Joe's scenario she had a sitting -or should that be a laying- duck. Why not use it to advantage?
-
Why when she?d blithely shot everyone else did she not shoot her father when he lay on the ground propped up by the Aga?
I dont know, Vertigo! Maybe she thought that she had killed him anyway, as long as he was subdued and unable to stop her killing June and the boys I dont suppose she cared!
Maybe she had to bash him over the head because the magazine wasn't inserted into the rifle at that point, who knows!
Point is, if the Aga caused the burns then the possible scenarios are very limited.
Do you think the Aga caused the burns, Vertigo?
Personally, I think anyone who doesn't think so is only delaying the inevitable, as it were!
-
Then I support the poster who claimed that at 5'7" and weighing 8.5 stone, a fully medicated and drowsy Sheila, who's lifestyle was more couch potato than athlete, wouldn't have been able to overpower her fit, 6'4" father. I think you need to brush up on the effects of concussion!
Yes, I keep hearing about Sheila being unable to overpower Nevill, April! But it wasn't a wrestling match!
One unexpected swing of the rifle from someone in a psychotic state and it was all over for big Nev, as General calls him!
Quite possible, April, quite possible!
-
I dont know, Vertigo! Maybe she thought that she had killed him anyway, as long as he was subdued and unable to stop her killing June and the boys I dont suppose she cared!
Maybe she had to bash him over the head because the magazine wasn't inserted into the rifle at that point, who knows!
Point is, if the Aga caused the burns then the possible scenarios are very limited.
Do you think the Aga caused the burns, Vertigo?
Personally, I think anyone who doesn't think so is only delaying the inevitable, as it were!
In your version of events She had a gun in her hands and shot everyone else multiple times each. The idea that she thought a bash to the head for her dad would suffice is frankly preposterous. I don?t know why you are fixating on the aga burns. Please explain why it would have been impossible for Nevill to have sustained these injuries with Bamber as the protagonist .
-
I dont know, Vertigo! Maybe she thought that she had killed him anyway, as long as he was subdued and unable to stop her killing June and the boys I dont suppose she cared!
Maybe she had to bash him over the head because the magazine wasn't inserted into the rifle at that point, who knows!
Point is, if the Aga caused the burns then the possible scenarios are very limited.
Do you think the Aga caused the burns, Vertigo?
Personally, I think anyone who doesn't think so is only delaying the inevitable, as it were!
Maybe's, possibly's and perhaps's won't cut the mustard, Joe, it's all theory. The best you can say re the Aga causing the burns is "IF" -and here I'm prepared to add one of my own! "IF" they were burns caused by the Aga, it doesn't mean JB is innocent. An unsafe conviction doesn't make him innocent, either. Are you happy with the idea of a convicted murderer being free on maybe's, may haves, possibly's and perhaps's?
-
In your version of events She had a gun in her hands and shot everyone else multiple times each. The idea that she thought a bash to the head for her dad would suffice is frankly preposterous. I don?t know why you are fixating on the aga burns. Please explain why it would have been impossible for Nevill to have sustained these injuries with Bamber as the protagonist .
We dont know what Sheila's plans were initially, Vertigo, or who she set out to kill!
She had to end up shooting June in the head because the body shots failed to kill her in bed!
Having witnessed this, Sheila made no such mistake with the boys, shooting them several times in the head only!
Sheila had to make things up on the hop, she had no real idea what damage the rifle was capable of inflicting!
-
We dont know what Sheila's plans were initially, Vertigo, or who she set out to kill!
She had to end up shooting June in the head because the body shots failed to kill her in bed!
Having witnessed this, Sheila made no such mistake with the boys, shooting them several times in the head only!
Sheila had to make things up on the hop, she had no real idea what damage the rifle was capable of inflicting!
So having bopped her dad on the head leaving him possibly still alive she then became so intent on murder that she went upstairs and shot her mother and two little boys numerous times in the head? Nah.
-
So having bopped her dad on the head leaving him possibly still alive she then became so intent on murder that she went upstairs and shot her mother and two little boys numerous times in the head? Nah.
Why not, Vertigo? Someone did!
Anyway! Lets start at the beginning, what do you think caused the burns to Nevills back?
What is the most likely cause or reason for them even?
-
Why not, Vertigo? Someone did!
Anyway! Lets start at the beginning, what do you think caused the burns to Nevills back?
What is the most likely cause or reason for them even?
No idea. How about you answer my question first though which was why the burns on his back mean Bamber couldn?t have been responsible for them?
-
You see people, Mr Philip Boyce has really got the JB guilters in a bit of a bind with his Aga burn theory, it just doesn't fit into the scenario put forward at trial at all!
That is, if the burns took anything like an hour or more to form, just where can this be inserted?
The Crown case has Nevill being firstly shot in bed before being pursued by Bamber soon after to be beaten and shot to death in the kitchen while slumped over the scuttle! The police case doesn't allow for any opportunity nor time needed to burn Nevills back on the Aga knobs!
There is nowhere the Aga evidence can be inserted in their scenario, nowhere at all!!
That is why most guilters just refuse to accept Boyce's theory, instead they claim the burns were caused by some unknown object to check for signs of life.Whether they actually believe that, I do not know!
Why are the marks different shapes and sizes if they were made by the rifle or any other solitary artticle?
The top mark even looks oval, resembling the knob on the Aga!
Anyway, the CCRC has the Aga evidence as you know, so its down to them!
In the mean time, all we can do is look at the implications of the Aga evidence if accepted, and as far as I can see there are only two possibilities, either Sheila is guilty and the Aga burned Nevills back between 12.00-3.00 after being knocked out! Or the CT are right and Nevill was beaten and shot to death 'before' falling against the Aga around 3.30, meaning that the police did indeed move Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle after entry around 7.40.
The problem with the CT scenario is, just how can we tell who shot and killed Nevill at 3.30 and left him lying against the Aga? I just dont see how this scenario clears Bamber? Why couldn't it have been him that killed Nevill before leaving? Not at 3.30 of course, if JB is guilty then he would have killed everyone and left the Whitehouse around 2.30.
And if the CT are correct, it means all injuries were inflicted to Nevill before falling against the Aga, including the final four head shots, so where was Nevill sitting when the four head shots were inflicted? And why was there no blood stains to prove this, say on the table?
There was certainly no blood on the Aga nor on the floor if Nevill was shot before falling, and no blood had ran onto his pyjama top either!
Realistically, Nevills final position in the crime scene photos fit perfectly! The blood on the scuttle and the floor fits, and Nevills final position is ideal for the final four head shots, two to the top and two above the right ear!
Anyways, if the Aga burns are accepted, that is your only two choices as far as I can see, either the burns happened between 12.00-3.00 when Nevill was still alive but injured, or they happened later on between 2.30?-7.40 and Nevill was then moved to the scuttle when the police entered!
Any other Aga burn scenarios out there?
-
Maybe's, possibly's and perhaps's won't cut the mustard, Joe, it's all theory. The best you can say re the Aga causing the burns is "IF" -and here I'm prepared to add one of my own! "IF" they were burns caused by the Aga, it doesn't mean JB is innocent. An unsafe conviction doesn't make him innocent, either. Are you happy with the idea of a convicted murderer being free on maybe's, may haves, possibly's and perhaps's?
Well as I have just said, April, I dont quite see how the CT theory that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry proves JBs innocence!
Not sure what their plan is!
If it was me, I would be adament about two things, one that no one moved Nevill upon entry and two, the Aga burned Nevills back, which should prove JBs innocence in my opinion!
-
No idea. How about you answer my question first though which was why the burns on his back mean Bamber couldn?t have been responsible for them?
Please read reply 59, Vertigo, that may answer some of your questions!
-
You see, its the time needed for the Aga to cause the burns, the time!!
Completely changes everything, completely!!!
-
Please read reply 59, Vertigo, that may answer some of your questions!
I expect you know that for this exercise to be an experiment, not only must it be done using like for like, it must also be done at the same temperature, and repeated many times before it can be considered as established fact. It isn't even known if the Bamber's Aga was on. Come to think of it, it's never been categorically established that the marks on Nevill's back are burns. As you know, I've taken measurements of all protruding parts of our Aga. Because some stand proud of others, unless, like Boyce's stooge, someone forces themselves against it, they can't be in contact with all the parts which protrude. An unconscious body would be limp.
I have no idea what the marks are. It's not even clear that they were made that night. Reddened areas could denote a skin condition? I don't go with a heated rifle barrel.
-
You see, its the time needed for the Aga to cause the burns, the time!!
Completely changes everything, completely!!!
How long does it take Aga knobs to cause burn marks then and how was this ascertained? When was it confirmed the burns were caused by Aga knobs anyway?
-
I expect you know that for this exercise to be an experiment, not only must it be done using like for like, it must also be done at the same temperature, and repeated many times before it can be considered as established fact. It isn't even known if the Bamber's Aga was on. Come to think of it, it's never been categorically established that the marks on Nevill's back are burns. As you know, I've taken measurements of all protruding parts of our Aga. Because some stand proud of others, unless, like Boyce's stooge, someone forces themselves against it, they can't be in contact with all the parts which protrude. An unconscious body would be limp.
I have no idea what the marks are. It's not even clear that they were made that night. Reddened areas could denote a skin condition? I don't go with a heated rifle barrel.
Thanks, April!
But as I said, the non believers shall we say, are simply denying the inevitable as far as the Aga evidence is concerned!
-
Thanks, April!
But as I said, the non believers shall we say, are simply denying the inevitable as far as the Aga evidence is concerned!
As opposed to supporters -or maybe just you?- clutching at it as if it's last chance saloon?
-
As opposed to supporters -or maybe just you?- clutching at it as if it's last chance saloon?
Ha ha! Yes, April, it probably is last chance saloon for JB!
Well the whole current submission that is! Not just the Aga evidence!
-
How long does it take Aga knobs to cause burn marks then and how was this ascertained? When was it confirmed the burns were caused by Aga knobs anyway?
Nothing is confirmed regarding the Aga evidence as far as we know, Vertigo!
It is still in the hands of the CCRC!
Boyce suggests it would have taken hours rather than minutes for the marks to form!
-
I expect you know that for this exercise to be an experiment, not only must it be done using like for like, it must also be done at the same temperature, and repeated many times before it can be considered as established fact. It isn't even known if the Bamber's Aga was on. Come to think of it, it's never been categorically established that the marks on Nevill's back are burns. As you know, I've taken measurements of all protruding parts of our Aga. Because some stand proud of others, unless, like Boyce's stooge, someone forces themselves against it, they can't be in contact with all the parts which protrude. An unconscious body would be limp.
I have no idea what the marks are. It's not even clear that they were made that night. Reddened areas could denote a skin condition? I don't go with a heated rifle barrel.
Several experts say they are burns.
Bamber's 2012 and 2021 CCRC submissions were on the basis that they are burns.
-
Well as I have just said, April, I dont quite see how the CT theory that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry proves JBs innocence!
Not sure what their plan is!
If it was me, I would be adament about two things, one that no one moved Nevill upon entry and two, the Aga burned Nevills back, which should prove JBs innocence in my opinion!
It does not prove his innocence.
But it would show the raid team and EP lied in there WS's when saying Nevill was on the coal scuttle.
The CT can then ask what else has the raid team and EP lied about.
-
One knob, which looks like metal to me, and two other parts which are not designed to be handled, General!
Why couldn't Sheila bash Nevill on the head with the rifle? You talk as if she was completely immobile, no weight lifting champion but i'm sure she could swing a rifle in a psychotic state surely? One unexpected blow and Nevill was out cold with a fractured skull. No problem whatsoever!
There's no way that little slip of a thing was capable of mustering the leverage and swing force required to render Nevil unconscious, not even taken unawares. Not a chance. Ever.
And that's also irrelevant anyway, as that's not what happened. In the life and death struggle across two floors and down the stairs, Nevil put up extreme resistance, despite being mortally wounded. Bamber used everything at his disposal to eventually subdue him and dispatch him, including using the butt of the rifle to batter him.
If Essex Police weren't so institutionally, criminally inept we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
'Yes, Jeremy, feel free to burn anything you like in the garden'.
-
It does not prove his innocence.
But it would show the raid team and EP lied in there WS's when saying Nevill was on the coal scuttle.
The CT can then ask what else has the raid team and EP lied about.
What clear evidence does the CT have that proves Nevill was moved from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry, Adam?
-
What clear evidence does the CT have that proves Nevill was moved from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry, Adam?
They are saying the aga is the proof.
-
There's no way that little slip of a thing was capable of mustering the leverage and swing force required to render Nevil unconscious, not even taken unawares. Not a chance. Ever.
And that's also irrelevant anyway, as that's not what happened. In the life and death struggle across two floors and down the stairs, Nevil put up extreme resistance, despite being mortally wounded. Bamber used everything at his disposal to eventually subdue him and dispatch him, including using the butt of the rifle to batter him.
If Essex Police weren't so institutionally, criminally inept we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
'Yes, Jeremy, feel free to burn anything you like in the garden'.
Nevill had two potentially fatal shots to his face and a broken arm by the time he reached the kitchen, General, he gave little or no resistance! No battering was needed, only four head shots to finish him off!
The battering took place earlier on when Nev ended up lying by the Aga!
That was when the rifle was damaged causing part of the stock to break off.
-
I dont know, Vertigo! Maybe she thought that she had killed him anyway, as long as he was subdued and unable to stop her killing June and the boys I dont suppose she cared!
Maybe she had to bash him over the head because the magazine wasn't inserted into the rifle at that point, who knows!
Point is, if the Aga caused the burns then the possible scenarios are very limited.
Do you think the Aga caused the burns, Vertigo?
Personally, I think anyone who doesn't think so is only delaying the inevitable, as it were!
From his injuries it is clear that Nevill was in a life and death struggle, so why was he unable to overcome his bird-like daughter in such a struggle as clearly the blow to the head wasn?t enough to stop him in his tracks (unless you?re suggesting that the blow to the head came after the life and death struggle?). Taken from another site:
Blood on right hand, face, upper & lower pyjamas, legs.
Severe swelling and bruising to both eyes.
Severe fractures to the skull.
Laceration to right eyebrow.
Laceration to right side of the nose.
Bruising and grazing to nose.
Bruising to both sides of the forehead.
Severe bruising to both cheekbones and temples.
Two linear abrasions to left cheek.
Face appeared deformed due to fracture of lower jaw.
Bruising to right ear.
Laceration to the top of the head.
Loss of skin from the palm of the hand.
Collection of bruises on the right forearm.
Bruising around the elbow.
Bruising to wrist and biceps.
Graze on left shoulder.
Bruising and grazing on the chest.
Three 'distinct' burn marks on back.
Bruising on right and left knee.
Bruising to toes and feet.
-
From his injuries it is clear that Nevill was in a life and death struggle, so why was he unable to overcome his bird-like daughter in such a struggle as clearly the blow to the head wasn?t enough to stop him in his tracks (unless you?re suggesting that the blow to the head came after the life and death struggle?). Taken from another site:
Blood on right hand, face, upper & lower pyjamas, legs.
Severe swelling and bruising to both eyes.
Severe fractures to the skull.
Laceration to right eyebrow.
Laceration to right side of the nose.
Bruising and grazing to nose.
Bruising to both sides of the forehead.
Severe bruising to both cheekbones and temples.
Two linear abrasions to left cheek.
Face appeared deformed due to fracture of lower jaw.
Bruising to right ear.
Laceration to the top of the head.
Loss of skin from the palm of the hand.
Collection of bruises on the right forearm.
Bruising around the elbow.
Bruising to wrist and biceps.
Graze on left shoulder.
Bruising and grazing on the chest.
Three 'distinct' burn marks on back.
Bruising on right and left knee.
Bruising to toes and feet.
Negative, Vertigo!
The injuries show that Nevill was beaten and shot by someone, thats all!!
There is no evidence whatsoever that he was in a life or death struggle, if this was the case then the killer would have shown some injuries too!
Neither JB nor Sheila showed any signs of being in a fight, and if JB had any hidden bruises on his body Julie would have told the police about this after she came forward!
-
They are saying the aga is the proof.
Well the Aga is proof I suppose if you rule out any other possible scenarios, Adam!
I asked the CT over on Twitter if they ever considered that the burns could have happened earlier on when Nevill was still alive?
They replied- 'It was considered but given the time it would take to achieve that level of burns to Nevills back that isn't a possibility. He would have rolled away if he could have.'
I then replied- 'What if Nevill was knocked out around 12.00 and came round at 3.00 before phoning JB? The Aga would be hotter at this time! If Nevill had a fractured skull his reflexes wouldn't alert him to roll away from the Aga. Did Vanezis state when the beating to the head took place? '-- To which I got no reply!!
-
Negative, Vertigo!
The injuries show that Nevill was beaten and shot by someone, thats all!!
There is no evidence whatsoever that he was in a life or death struggle, if this was the case then the killer would have shown some injuries too!
Neither JB nor Sheila showed any signs of being in a fight, and if JB had any hidden bruises on his body Julie would have told the police about this after she came forward!
Some of those injuries were most likely sustained as Nevill tried to defend himself. Are you saying he was unable to defend himself against his daughter and that he was not in a struggle for his life? A struggle between the two men, one wielding a weapon, would not necessarily have resulted in noticeable injuries to the latter.
-
Well the Aga is proof I suppose if you rule out any other possible scenarios, Adam!
I asked the CT over on Twitter if they ever considered that the burns could have happened earlier on when Nevill was still alive?
They replied- 'It was considered but given the time it would take to achieve that level of burns to Nevills back that isn't a possibility. He would have rolled away if he could have.'
I then replied- 'What if Nevill was knocked out around 12.00 and came round at 3.00 before phoning JB? The Aga would be hotter at this time! If Nevill had a fractured skull his reflexes wouldn't alert him to roll away from the Aga. Did Vanezis state when the beating to the head took place? '-- To which I got no reply!!
What do you have Sheila Bamber doing in the 4 hours between smashing her dad round the head and him coming to, apart from the three murders which would have taken a few seconds to execute?
-
What do you have Sheila Bamber doing in the 4 hours between smashing her dad round the head and him coming to, apart from the three murders which would have taken a few seconds to execute?
I dont know how long the burns took to form, Vertigo, I give a window of three hours as a rough guide only until we see Boyce's Aga evidence in detail!
Anyway, June took a while to kill having managed to get out of bed before being finished off, the boys were probably wakened by the screaming, so Sheila would have to reassure them that everything was ok and get them back to sleep again! No way would she want them to suffer like June, they had to be asleep,unaware of what was about to happen, then a succession of head shots as quick as possible followed!
Who knows what Sheila did after killing June and the boys, there was letters found that she had written to her birth mother, possibly a suicide note too! She may have washed too and tidied herself up, maybe changed her clothing. There was a wet pair of leggings hanging over the ballustrades at the top of the stair.
I suppose a few prayers asking for forgiveness before she met her maker would be likely too!
Thing is,we will never know, especially with someone suffering from mental issues!
-
Nevill had two potentially fatal shots to his face and a broken arm by the time he reached the kitchen, General, he gave little or no resistance! No battering was needed, only four head shots to finish him off!
The battering took place earlier on when Nev ended up lying by the Aga!
That was when the rifle was damaged causing part of the stock to break off.
How do you think he sustained the injuries, a trip on the stairs? A fight to the death occurred.
Gun or no gun, manicured nails or no, Bambi had no chance, as was proved by Nevil managing to hold on as long as he did.
I don't care about your aga, Jeremy Bamber shot two defenceless children in the head. Here's hoping he gets MND and withers away to a crisp, the cnut.
Incidentally, what order does your crackpot theory have them shot in?
-
I dont know how long the burns took to form, Vertigo, I give a window of three hours as a rough guide only until we see Boyce's Aga evidence in detail!
Anyway, June took a while to kill having managed to get out of bed before being finished off, the boys were probably wakened by the screaming, so Sheila would have to reassure them that everything was ok and get them back to sleep again! No way would she want them to suffer like June, they had to be asleep,unaware of what was about to happen, then a succession of head shots as quick as possible followed!
Who knows what Sheila did after killing June and the boys, there was letters found that she had written to her birth mother, possibly a suicide note too! She may have washed too and tidied herself up, maybe changed her clothing. There was a wet pair of leggings hanging over the ballustrades at the top of the stair.
I suppose a few prayers asking for forgiveness before she met her maker would be likely too!
Thing is,we will never know, especially with someone suffering from mental issues!
All the while leaving her father downstairs, not knowing if he was alive or dead. Yeah very plausible. So you have her as a beserk homicidal maniac who managed to calm down enough to soothe her boys back to sleep before pumping their brains full of lead. Again, highly likely I?m sure. And then once she?s pumped herself up to homicidal maniac status again to kill her sons and father she then calms right down again to perform some light laundry, have a nice relaxing bath and write a few letters, before somehow managing to blow her own brains out with a shotgun. It?s all quite laughable really.
-
Some of those injuries were most likely sustained as Nevill tried to defend himself. Are you saying he was unable to defend himself against his daughter and that he was not in a struggle for his life? A struggle between the two men, one wielding a weapon, would not necessarily have resulted in noticeable injuries to the latter.
The prosecution case is that Nevill was shot in the bedroom to begin with before fleeing to the kitchen, Vertigo! That is, the two face shots and the arm and body shots. If you read the details of the face shots you will find that they could have been potentially fatal on their own having lodged in Nevills vertebra, the arm shot broke his arm and caused overlapping of the bones, very nasty painfull injuries, very nasty!
Now even if Sheila was the killer, Nevill would still have recieved the same injuries before reaching the kitchen, albeit on the landing beside the main bedroom and the stair case retreating to the kitchen!
But!! Whoever shot him and where, he was still in no condition whatsoever to fight back in anyway once he reached the kitchen, at best, all Nevill could do was stumble onto a chair exhausted and hold up his one good arm to defend himself.
And this does indeed seem to be the case, his right arm recieved injuries which resembled poking from the rifle barrel, and linear bruises were found on his shoulders thought to be from the whacking of the barrel.
The sight of the rifle probably slashed Nevills hand at this time too!
Nevills pyjama bottoms came down in the scuffle too and he finally tripped up and stumbled onto the chair, his head landing in the scuttle which stopped him falling to the floor.
Now at peace, succumbing to pain and blood loss, Nevill is in the perfect position to recieve the final four shots to the head!
No 'treeemendous' struggle nor fight for life took place in the kitchen, Vertigo!
That simply was not possible! A three year old kid could have finished off Nevill at that stage!
-
All the while leaving her father downstairs, not knowing if he was alive or dead. Yeah very plausible. So you have her as a beserk homicidal maniac who managed to calm down enough to soothe her boys back to sleep before pumping their brains full of lead. Again, highly likely I?m sure. And then once she?s pumped herself up to homicidal maniac status again to kill her sons and father she then calms right down again to perform some light laundry, have a nice relaxing bath and write a few letters, before somehow managing to blow her own brains out with a shotgun. It?s all quite laughable really.
Indeed it may sound far fetched, Vertigo!
But if, if the Aga made the burns, what other explanation is there?
Only that the police must have moved Nevill upon entry, do you favour that scenario?
Or can you come up with an alternative Aga burn scenario??
-
How do you think he sustained the injuries, a trip on the stairs? A fight to the death occurred.
Gun or no gun, manicured nails or no, Bambi had no chance, as was proved by Nevil managing to hold on as long as he did.
I don't care about your aga, Jeremy Bamber shot two defenceless children in the head. Here's hoping he gets MND and withers away to a crisp, the cnut.
Incidentally, what order does your crackpot theory have them shot in?
June shot first, next the boys and then Nevill, General!
Why dont you care about the Aga?
-
Indeed it may sound far fetched, Vertigo!
But if, if the Aga made the burns, what other explanation is there?
Only that the police must have moved Nevill upon entry, do you favour that scenario?
What other explanation is there? That something else caused the burns, which may not even have been burns.
-
The prosecution case is that Nevill was shot in the bedroom to begin with before fleeing to the kitchen, Vertigo! That is, the two face shots and the arm and body shots. If you read the details of the face shots you will find that they could have been potentially fatal on their own having lodged in Nevills vertebra, the arm shot broke his arm and caused overlapping of the bones, very nasty painfull injuries, very nasty!
Now even if Sheila was the killer, Nevill would still have recieved the same injuries before reaching the kitchen, albeit on the landing beside the main bedroom and the stair case retreating to the kitchen!
But!! Whoever shot him and where, he was still in no condition whatsoever to fight back in anyway once he reached the kitchen, at best, all Nevill could do was stumble onto a chair exhausted and hold up his one good arm to defend himself.
And this does indeed seem to be the case, his right arm recieved injuries which resembled poking from the rifle barrel, and linear bruises were found on his shoulders thought to be from the whacking of the barrel.
The sight of the rifle probably slashed Nevills hand at this time too!
Nevills pyjama bottoms came down in the scuffle too and he finally tripped up and stumbled onto the chair, his head landing in the scuttle which stopped him falling to the floor.
Now at peace, succumbing to pain and blood loss, Nevill is in the perfect position to recieve the final four shots to the head!
No 'treeemendous' struggle nor fight for life took place in the kitchen, Vertigo!
That simply was not possible! A three year old kid could have finished off Nevill at that stage!
At what point in this above fantasy, I mean scenario do you have Nevill making the phone call to JB?
-
At what point in this above fantasy, I mean scenario do you have Nevill making the phone call to JB?
After he regained conciousness around 3.00. Vertigo!
Before he went up stairs to be shot!
-
What other explanation is there? That something else caused the burns, which may not even have been burns.
No no, I was asking if you had any Aga burn scenarios in mind yourself, Vertigo?
That is, I want you to give a scenario that includes the Aga burning Nevills back!
-
After he regained conciousness around 3.00. Vertigo!
Before he went up stairs to be shot!
So he was in the condition to fight back when Sheila allegedly first went at him with the gun.
-
So he was in the condition to fight back when Sheila allegedly first went at him with the gun.
Oh yes! Fully fit, but taken by surprise!
May have been slightly drowsy though after a long days work and a large G&T!
-
No no, I was asking if you had any Aga burn scenarios in mind yourself, Vertigo?
That is, I want you to give a scenario that includes the Aga burning Nevills back!
why would I do that when it hasn?t been demonstrated that the Aga caused the burns that night? Is there a photograph of these alleged burns and these Aga knobs?
-
Oh yes! Fully fit, but taken by surprise!
May have been slightly drowsy though after a long days work and a large G&T!
so she administers one almighty thwack to the head that renders him unconscious for 3 hours? Where was Sheila when he made his phonecall?
-
so she administers one almighty thwack to the head that renders him unconscious for 3 hours? Where was Sheila when he made his phonecall?
Sheila was more than likely up stairs when Nev called Jeremy at 3.10. Vertigo!
-
why would I do that when it hasn?t been demonstrated that the Aga caused the burns that night? Is there a photograph of these alleged burns and these Aga knobs?
Good heavens, there's videos and podcasts all over the web explaining Philip Boyces theory, Vertigo!
You really should watch and listen to them before making a decision.
Just print in 'Philip Boyce Aga burns' or such like! There's a six minute video on youtube and Yvonne Hartley does a half hour audio podcast explaining things too.
Print in Jeremy Bamber podcasts.
-
Sheila was more than likely up stairs when Nev called Jeremy at 3.10. Vertigo!
Then why did Nevill stop talking to Jeremy after one short sentence? What happened directly after he uttered the words ?you sister?s gone crazy, she?s got a gun??
-
Good heavens, there's videos and podcasts all over the web explaining Philip Boyces theory, Vertigo!
You really should watch and listen to them before making a decision.
Just print in 'Philip Boyce Aga burns' or such like! There's a six minute video on youtube and Yvonne Hartley does a half hour audio podcast explaining things too.
Print in Jeremy Bamber podcasts.
. if this is such a big and important theory why hasn?t it formed the basis of previous appeals? Isn?t it the case that every time an appeal fails Bamber?s team have to come up with a new theory of why he couldn?t have done it? That?s how it seems to me?
-
. if this is such a big and important theory why hasn?t it formed the basis of previous appeals? Isn?t it the case that every time an appeal fails Bamber?s team have to come up with a new theory of why he couldn?t have done it? That?s how it seems to me?
It was actually JB and Yvonne Hartley who came up with the Aga theory, they realized that if you were to lie on your side in front of the Aga, leaning against it, then various parts could possibly cause burns similar to those found on Nevills back!
So, JB/CT hired Philip Boyce to conduct an experiment to prove this! And sure enough, three marks could be produced on pig skin which were similar in size, shape, and spacing to Nevills burns.
But no, this evidence could not be used before because it is only in recent years that the source of the burns was 'discovered' shall we say.
So the Aga theory really is 'new evidence', which was unavailable at the time of previous appeals, Vertigo!
-
Then why did Nevill stop talking to Jeremy after one short sentence? What happened directly after he uttered the words ?you sister?s gone crazy, she?s got a gun??
Well I suppose Nevill was anxious to get up stairs and see if anyone had been injured, so just said what was neccessary to JB and hung up!
-
Well I suppose Nevill was anxious to get up stairs and see if anyone had been injured, so just said what was neccessary to JB and hung up!
he didn?t hang up though did he? Jeremy stated that he could hear noises in the house after his father spoke. Didn?t mention hearing gunshots though.
-
he didn?t hang up though did he? Jeremy stated that he could hear noises in the house after his father spoke. Didn?t mention hearing gunshots though.
I cant remember what JB said regarding the phone call, would need to check!
But I think JB would have put the phone down before an injured Nevill had staggered up stairs anyway!
Have you watched or listened to any of the Aga evidence yet, Vertigo?
-
This is what JB said in his first statement- About 3.10 a.m. I recieved a telephone call from my father. His voice was distressed and he said something like 'Sheila's gone crazy,she has got a gun'. After a few seconds the phone went dead.
-
It was actually JB and Yvonne Hartley who came up with the Aga theory, they realized that if you were to lie on your side in front of the Aga, leaning against it, then various parts could possibly cause burns similar to those found on Nevills back!........................
Mmm. So he's been inside for the best part of 40 years during which time, after numerous failed attempts to gain his freedom, he's dispensed with the services of many who've supported him. The above sounds like nothing less than another cooked up attempt, as in "Yeh! This one might work!". It sounds like one of the numerous sessions he had with MT, cooking up scenarios which became more and more ludicrous, ie supposing A and B happen, and we can suggest it did, possibly X,Y, and Z should follow.
-
This is what JB said in his first statement- About 3.10 a.m. I recieved a telephone call from my father. His voice was distressed and he said something like 'Sheila's gone crazy,she has got a gun'. After a few seconds the phone went dead.
I don't recall that "His voice was distressed......." formed part of his call to police, initially. It was only included as an afterthought after he'd been put on hold..............which is a bit rich considering he'd taken a good 10 minutes looking up, and making calls to, various police stations rather than call 999.
-
This is what JB said in his first statement- About 3.10 a.m. I recieved a telephone call from my father. His voice was distressed and he said something like 'Sheila's gone crazy,she has got a gun'. After a few seconds the phone went dead.
I?m sure you know that in court he claimed to have stayed in the line for a while and could hear noises elsewhere in the house. Also the phone was off the hook when found was it not? It seems inconceivable that Nevill would not have added ?phone the police? or ?I have phoned the police? if that is what is now being claimed he did and just left his son hanging like that. I could understand it if he suddenly heard a gun shot or a scream but Jeremy made no mention of either happening during the call.
-
The ridiculous timeline suggested by Blogsy aside, with Nevill failing to mention in the phonecall that Sheila had crowned him with the rifle butt, Nevill's wounds are consistent with a man who fought with every fibre of his being to protect his family; serious, life-threatening injuries, broken bones, defensive wounds - that man went out on his shield. If his attacker was Sheila he would have folded her up like a deck chair pretty early on in proceedings and subdued her.
All logic and reason tells us that a frail, unstable, 8st woman could not inflict those injuries on a man twice her size. Even blindsided or hit over the head by Sheila while sleeping it wouldn't take long for him to deal with her. Your average farmer develops unnatural strength, so this is not old gramps, sitting in his armchair in his slippers.
No, Bamber had to kill Nevill, and I bet he shit himself when Nevill put up almighty resistance over several minutes.
And we have to remember that Bamber had to make it look plausible that Sheila killed everyone, so couldn't manually stangle him, or bludgeon him with a tyre iron or hammer, so he had not choice but to try to get shots off, manipulating him into position to do so.
....and if I'm going to continue to discuss this case I'm going to have to refer to Bamber as 'the cnut' from now on, if everyone's OK with that.
-
With all due respect to everyone, this thread is really about the latest submission and the question, 'does it contain any new material'?
And with all due respect, i've heard all the arguments about Sheila's size and strength too!
The question I am asking is quite simple really, when was Nevill lying against the Aga?
That is, if you accept that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, how does this fit into 'your' crime scene scenario?
Thats all I want to know!
You see, its all very well saying Sheila couldn't do this or couldn't do that, but if the Aga burn evidence points to a guilty Sheila then we will simply have to accept that she 'could' have done this or that on the night of the murders!
Now I can understand why those who think JB is guilty dont want to accept the Aga evidence or even discuss it, for try as they may, they know that Nevill lying against the Aga for several hours just doesn't fit into a JB guilt scenario!
The Aga evidence is just a nuisence for them, their scenario is, or at least 'was' quite simple, Nevill was shot in the bedroom ran downstairs and was beaten and shot to death in the kitchen soon after, ending up on a chair/scuttle!
But!! if by chance the Aga evidence is proven and accepted by the CCRC then the police scenario will obviously have to be updated to include the burns!
So people, you have two choices, either sit tight and hope the CCRC throw the Aga evidence out, or give your own Aga burn scenario meantime in preparation, just incase Boyce's evidence is indeed proven and accepted!
-
With all due respect to everyone, this thread is really about the latest submission and the question, 'does it contain any new material'?
And with all due respect, i've heard all the arguments about Sheila's size and strength too!
The question I am asking is quite simple really, when was Nevill lying against the Aga?
That is, if you accept that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, how does this fit into 'your' crime scene scenario?
Thats all I want to know!
You see, its all very well saying Sheila couldn't do this or couldn't do that, but if the Aga burn evidence points to a guilty Sheila then we will simply have to accept that she 'could' have done this or that on the night of the murders!
Now I can understand why those who think JB is guilty dont want to accept the Aga evidence or even discuss it, for try as they may, they know that Nevill lying against the Aga for several hours just doesn't fit into a JB guilt scenario!
The Aga evidence is just a nuisence for them, their scenario is, or at least 'was' quite simple, Nevill was shot in the bedroom ran downstairs and was beaten and shot to death in the kitchen soon after, ending up on a chair/scuttle!
But!! if by chance the Aga evidence is proven and accepted by the CCRC then the police scenario will obviously have to be updated to include the burns!
So people, you have two choices, either sit tight and hope the CCRC throw the Aga evidence out, or give your own Aga burn scenario meantime in preparation, just incase Boyce's evidence is indeed proven and accepted!
Bollix to you Joe Blogs, with your magic aga theory. You don't like hearing the truth, that's why your new old evidence is so important to you.
He'll be dead soon anyway, hopefully, the cnut.
-
With all due respect to everyone, this thread is really about the latest submission and the question, 'does it contain any new material'?
And with all due respect, i've heard all the arguments about Sheila's size and strength too!
The question I am asking is quite simple really, when was Nevill lying against the Aga?
That is, if you accept that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, how does this fit into 'your' crime scene scenario?
Thats all I want to know!
You see, its all very well saying Sheila couldn't do this or couldn't do that, but if the Aga burn evidence points to a guilty Sheila then we will simply have to accept that she 'could' have done this or that on the night of the murders!
Now I can understand why those who think JB is guilty dont want to accept the Aga evidence or even discuss it, for try as they may, they know that Nevill lying against the Aga for several hours just doesn't fit into a JB guilt scenario!
The Aga evidence is just a nuisence for them, their scenario is, or at least 'was' quite simple, Nevill was shot in the bedroom ran downstairs and was beaten and shot to death in the kitchen soon after, ending up on a chair/scuttle!
But!! if by chance the Aga evidence is proven and accepted by the CCRC then the police scenario will obviously have to be updated to include the burns!
So people, you have two choices, either sit tight and hope the CCRC throw the Aga evidence out, or give your own Aga burn scenario meantime in preparation, just incase Boyce's evidence is indeed proven and accepted!
It won?t be accepted because even if by some miracle it can be proven without doubt that those burns were caused by the Aga knobs it doesn?t necessarily follow that the only way they could have got there is if Sheila murdered her entire family. IMO. Maybe Jeremy left Nevill for dead in the kitchen but the latter wasn?t quite finished off, got up with one last almighty effort got to the chair and collapsed toward the coal scuttle headfirst. For example.
-
Bollix to you Joe Blogs, with your magic aga theory. You don't like hearing the truth, that's why your new old evidence is so important to you.
He'll be dead soon anyway, hopefully, the cnut.
Maybe its you who doesn't like hearing the truth about the Aga burns, General!
-
It won?t be accepted because even if by some miracle it can be proven without doubt that those burns were caused by the Aga knobs it doesn?t necessarily follow that the only way they could have got there is if Sheila murdered her entire family. IMO. Maybe Jeremy left Nevill for dead in the kitchen but the latter wasn?t quite finished off, got up with one last almighty effort got to the chair and collapsed toward the coal scuttle headfirst. For example.
No, it wasn't possible for Nevill to get up from the Aga once JB left, he had four bullets in his brain, Vertigo!
If JB left him against the Aga,then it was the police who moved him sometime after entry at 7.40!
It isn't easy to come up with a guilty JB scenario which includes Nevill burning his back on the Aga, not without the police tampering with the crime scene!
-
No, it wasn't possible for Nevill to get up from the Aga once JB left, he had four bullets in his brain, Vertigo!
If JB left him against the Aga,then it was the police who moved him sometime after entry at 7.40!
It isn't easy to come up with a guilty JB scenario which includes Nevill burning his back on the Aga, not without the police tampering with the crime scene!
If Sheila csn have a violent struggle with a man twice her size and win, then Nevill can hoist himself off the ground with four bullets in his brain, both theories equally nutty imo.
-
If Sheila csn have a violent struggle with a man twice her size and win, then Nevill can hoist himself off the ground with four bullets in his brain, both theories equally nutty imo.
Well, there's nutty, and then there's scientifically impossible, Vertigo!
-
With all due respect to everyone, this thread is really about the latest submission and the question, 'does it contain any new material'?
And with all due respect, i've heard all the arguments about Sheila's size and strength too!
The question I am asking is quite simple really, when was Nevill lying against the Aga?
That is, if you accept that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, how does this fit into 'your' crime scene scenario?
Thats all I want to know!
You see, its all very well saying Sheila couldn't do this or couldn't do that, but if the Aga burn evidence points to a guilty Sheila then we will simply have to accept that she 'could' have done this or that on the night of the murders!
Now I can understand why those who think JB is guilty dont want to accept the Aga evidence or even discuss it, for try as they may, they know that Nevill lying against the Aga for several hours just doesn't fit into a JB guilt scenario!
The Aga evidence is just a nuisence for them, their scenario is, or at least 'was' quite simple, Nevill was shot in the bedroom ran downstairs and was beaten and shot to death in the kitchen soon after, ending up on a chair/scuttle!
But!! if by chance the Aga evidence is proven and accepted by the CCRC then the police scenario will obviously have to be updated to include the burns!
So people, you have two choices, either sit tight and hope the CCRC throw the Aga evidence out, or give your own Aga burn scenario meantime in preparation, just incase Boyce's evidence is indeed proven and accepted!
They didn't and he wasn't .............. NEXT!
-
They didn't and he wasn't .............. NEXT!
Sorry, Caroline, who's 'they' and 'who' wasn't?
Can you expand a little please!
-
Most people think Nevill was burnt to check for signs of life. Even some supporters although have not explained how Sheila was able to lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle/chair.
That is the most simple explanation. Bamber had the time, strength and available equipment.
The police/raid team moving him & then lying about it or Nevill being knocked out for 3 hours are too unlikely.
-
Most people think Nevill was burnt to check for signs of life. Even some supporters although have not explained how Sheila was able to lift Nevill onto the coal scuttle/chair.
That is the most simple explanation. Bamber had the time, strength and available equipment.
The police/raid team moving him & then lying about it or Nevill being knocked out for 3 hours are too unlikely.
Checking for signs of life is something you do before rushing someone to a hospital, Adam!
-
Checking for signs of life is something you do before rushing someone to a hospital, Adam!
Or if you want to ensure they’re dead. You know that experiment with the pig skin - was it done under clothes fabrics?
-
Or if you want to ensure they’re dead. You know that experiment with the pig skin - was it done under clothes fabrics?
I am not aware of Boyce covering the pig skin in cloth for his experiments, Vertigo, but he may have done!
Maybe some with cloth and some without?? I really dont know, but no doubt all his experimentation will have been given to the CCRC!
We have to bear in mind too that Nevills pyjama jacket had a tear in it, so it may have catched on part of the Aga as he fell, pulling it to one side, hence no marks on the jacket!
-
Would therr have been any good or logical reason for the police to have hauled Nevill’s body off the floor and onto a chair in a very serious breach of protocol?
-
Would therr have been any good or logical reason for the police to have hauled Nevill’s body off the floor and onto a chair in a very serious breach of protocol?
I'm not sure if the CT have given an actual reason why Nevill was moved from the Aga to the chair/scuttle, Vertigo!
Would need to check!
Maybe someone else can help with that question?
-
Would therr have been any good or logical reason for the police to have hauled Nevill’s body off the floor and onto a chair in a very serious breach of protocol?
Why would they reposition Nevill's body where it would interfere with circulation of investigators through the kitchen? Makes no sense other than to Bamber supporters, obviously.
-
Why would they reposition Nevill's body where it would interfere with circulation of investigators through the kitchen? Makes no sense other than to Bamber supporters, obviously.
Good to see you back, Myster &^^&*
-
Or if you want to ensure they’re dead. You know that experiment with the pig skin - was it done under clothes fabrics?
The guinea pig in Boyce's woeful experiment was wearing a t-shirt. Nevill had a tear in his blue pyjama top but nowhere near the burns on his nape...
-
Good to see you back, Myster &^^&*
Hello April, I've been observing Joe's shenanigans from afar and thought I'd better return and contribute to debunking all the misinformation.
-
Hello April, I've been observing Joe's shenanigans from afar and thought I'd better return and contribute to debunking all the misinformation.
One is inclined to suspect a sad case of terminal brainwashing! Debunking, certainly. Perhaps some debriefing, too?
-
Boyce's experiment was carried out on an oil-fired AGA (repurposed SF), superficially similar to the solid-fuel fired one at WHF, but of different thermal character. So not a true like-for-like representation. The oil supply control box is at the right-hand side with a 8 or 10 mm microbore supply pipe painted white leading to the enclosed burner within on the left (concealed behind the AGA front vent and former ashpit door). It's also raised on a brick plinth whereas the WHF AGA was resting directly on the kitchen floor...
-
They also claim that the top two burns on Nevill's nape were caused by the chrome-plated handle and the corresponding housing for its ball catch, as shown in a highly misleading composite photo (attached), where the parts in question appear to be in the same vertical plane 1.25" apart, when in fact the 3-dimensional view tells a different story, the separating distance being something over 2.25" NOT 1.25".
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11477219/Forensic-scientist-reveals-used-PIG-SKIN-test-theory-Jeremy-Bamber-case.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11477219/Forensic-scientist-reveals-used-PIG-SKIN-test-theory-Jeremy-Bamber-case.html)
Using the forensic scale it's easy to gauge the distance, each black and white space representing 10mm, giving something like 60mm (or 2.36") total.
APRIL has also confirmed the same measurement on her own old converted AGA.
-
Very nicely debunked Myster.
-
Very nicely debunked Myster.
Nicely debunked, Vertigo?
How so? Did I miss something?
-
Nicely debunked, Vertigo?
How so? Did I miss something?
obviously!
-
obviously!
If its the spacing of the top mark, then the CT have explained that, Nevill was lying against the Aga with his head forward and his chin tucked in, when he was photod at the morgue he was lying flat on his face which would shorten the distance of the top mark!
Try it with your hand, Vertigo! same principal! Let your wrist go limp and allow your hand to hang down, now put one mark with a pen on the joint area and another further up the wrist, measure the distance between the two points and then straighten your wrist again, as you will see the distance obviously shrinks!
Its no good just measuring the points on the Aga as reference, the human body is flexible, Vertigo!
If April wants a true result she will have to mark the three points on her Aga with lipstick or such, get down and lie against the cooker until all three points are in contact with her neck/back and then get up and straighten her head, then when someone measures the distance between the top too marks it will be less than the two points on the actuall Aga.
Quite simple!
Anything else?
-
If its the spacing of the top mark, then the CT have explained that, Nevill was lying against the Aga with his head forward and his chin tucked in, when he was photod at the morgue he was lying flat on his face which would shorten the distance of the top mark!
Try it with your hand, Vertigo! same principal! Let your wrist go limp and allow your hand to hang down, now put one mark with a pen on the joint area and another further up the wrist, measure the distance between the two points and then straighten your wrist again, as you will see the distance obviously shrinks!
Its no good just measuring the points on the Aga as reference, the human body is flexible, Vertigo!
If April wants a true result she will have to mark the three points on her Aga with lipstick or such, get down and lie against the cooker until all three points are in contact with her neck/back and then get up and straighten her head, then when someone measures the distance between the top too marks it will be less than the two points on the actuall Aga.
Quite simple!
Anything else?
Are dead bodies that flexible? It seems to me there are too many variables at play to prove it one way or the other.
-
Are dead bodies that flexible? It seems to me there are too many variables at play to prove it one way or the other.
Well it takes 8-12 hours for rigor mortis to set in fully, Vertigo, so Nevill would probably have been stretchered out flat on his back before then?
But I mean, just look at the blown up photos of the burns that Myster has posted, its obvious they are all different, and it cant be denied that the top mark is bigger, surely this mirrors the Aga knob and the two smaller points of the catch, as opposed to three burns from the rifle barrel which should be almost identical give or take surely?
-
Well it takes 8-12 hours for rigor mortis to set in fully, Vertigo, so Nevill would probably have been stretchered out flat on his back before then?
But I mean, just look at the blown up photos of the burns that Myster has posted, its obvious they are all different, and it cant be denied that the top mark is bigger, surely this mirrors the Aga knob and the two smaller points of the catch, as opposed to three burns from the rifle barrel which should be almost identical give or take surely?
In the pig skin experiment the top mark caused by the aga handle doesn’t appear to be anything more than an indentation whereas on Nevill’s body the top mark seems to be the worst of the burns.
-
In the pig skin experiment the top mark caused by the aga handle doesn’t appear to be anything more than an indentation whereas on Nevill’s body the top mark seems to be the worst of the burns.
Yes thats true, Vertigo!
Others have pointed that out before.
Not sure if the CT have given an explanation for this or not.
There is a lot of info about the burns on substacks/Bamber versus the doc maker, you need to pay a subscription to view it though.
I'll take another look there!
-
In the pig skin experiment the top mark caused by the aga handle doesn’t appear to be anything more than an indentation whereas on Nevill’s body the top mark seems to be the worst of the burns.
It's just a large white, lens-shaped depression bearing no resemblance whatsoever to the topmost mark/burn. If they are burns, as Vanezis firmly stated, to me they seem to have been inflicted in an instant as one would expect with branding, not from contact with hot/warm raised projections over a longer period of time. His body wasn't moved from the AGA by anyone either, but found perched on a chairback (as noted in various police wit/stats) and no-one can get round the fact that Nevill's final minute was spent with his head in the scuttle when he had ceased to resist as 4 rounds (nos.1, 2, 3 & 4) were fired into his brain from above by the experienced Anschutz 525 user who was rightly convicted...
-
It's just a large white, lens-shaped depression bearing no resemblance whatsoever to the topmost mark/burn. If they are burns, as Vanezis firmly stated, to me they seem to have been inflicted in an instant as one would expect with branding, not from contact with hot/warm raised projections over a longer period of time. His body wasn't moved from the AGA by anyone either, but found perched on a chairback (as noted in various police wit/stats) and no-one can get round the fact that Nevill's final minute was spent with his head in the scuttle when he had ceased to resist as 4 rounds (nos.1, 2, 3 & 4) were fired into his brain from above by the experienced Anschutz 525 user who was rightly convicted...
May I ask, at what point in your scenario did JB 'brand' Nevill, and who else was alive at that time, Myster?
-
You see the thing is, if Bamber is guilty then his plan went pear shaped once Nevill escaped to the kitchen, at that stage he had lost containment of the victims, as it were!
Now just who was alive at this stage is debatable, but quite probably Sheila and a badly injured June at least!
Now you could probably assume that Bamber was out of ammo at this stage too, so he would probably beat Nevill unconcious with the rifle once he reached the kitchen before re-loading?
Although truth be told, Nevills injuries suggest a poking and whacking with the rifle barrel! Oh well, never mind!
So, at this stage what does JB do? Surely he must be in a right old state, desperate to get back upstairs to check if June is dead and then kill Sheila incase she has wakened and tried to flee the house? Yes?
But! if this is the case, why did Bamber decide to burn Nevills back instead, delaying going back upstairs for at least five minutes, probably nearer ten by the time he shot Nevill another four times in the head?
Or are we to conclude that JB went back upstairs to kill Sheila and June before he burned Nevills back and shot him in the head?
In all honesty, wouldn't the logical thing to do have been to just re-load as quick as possible once Nevill was out cold in the kitchen and then shoot him in the head before rushing upstairs?
Why oh why would JB just simply stop mid massacre and waste time burning Nevills back?? Its madness to suggest such a thing! Especially when the victims were seperated surely?
Gee whizz, Sheila or June could have smashed a window and cried for help or anything, yet Bamber thinks its more important to heat up the barrel of the rifle for five minutes to check for signs of life? Just shoot him for christs sake and get back upstairs ASAP!!!!
What on earth was the need to resrict the amount of bullets Nevill received anyway??? Did he think less bullets would point to a guilty Sheila? If that was the reason why did he put two bullets into Junes skull and eight into the boys??Besides, he ended up putting four bullets into Nevills head anyway for heavens sake!!
Truth is, there was absolutely no need to burn Nevills back, no logical reason whatsoever, and no real suitable time to do so in the middle of the massacre!
No, we have to accept that the most logical reason for the burns to Nevill back is the Aga and that they were purely accidental people! Purely accidental!
-
You see the thing is, if Bamber is guilty then his plan went pear shaped once Nevill escaped to the kitchen, at that stage he had lost containment of the victims, as it were!
Now just who was alive at this stage is debatable, but quite probably Sheila and a badly injured June at least!
Now you could probably assume that Bamber was out of ammo at this stage too, so he would probably beat Nevill unconcious with the rifle once he reached the kitchen before re-loading?
Although truth be told, Nevills injuries suggest a poking and whacking with the rifle barrel! Oh well, never mind!
So, at this stage what does JB do? Surely he must be in a right old state, desperate to get back upstairs to check if June is dead and then kill Sheila incase she has wakened and tried to flee the house? Yes?
But! if this is the case, why did Bamber decide to burn Nevills back instead, delaying going back upstairs for at least five minutes, probably nearer ten by the time he shot Nevill another four times in the head?
Or are we to conclude that JB went back upstairs to kill Sheila and June before he burned Nevills back and shot him in the head?
In all honesty, wouldn't the logical thing to do have been to just re-load as quick as possible once Nevill was out cold in the kitchen and then shoot him in the head before rushing upstairs?
Why oh why would JB just simply stop mid massacre and waste time burning Nevills back?? Its madness to suggest such a thing! Especially when the victims were seperated surely?
Gee whizz, Sheila or June could have smashed a window and cried for help or anything, yet Bamber thinks its more important to heat up the barrel of the rifle for five minutes to check for signs of life? Just shoot him for christs sake and get back upstairs ASAP!!!!
What on earth was the need to resrict the amount of bullets Nevill received anyway??? Did he think less bullets would point to a guilty Sheila? If that was the reason why did he put two bullets into Junes skull and eight into the boys??
Truth is, there was absolutely no need to burn Nevills back, no logical reason whatsoever, and no real suitable time to do so in the middle of the massacre!
No, we have to accept that the most logical reason for the burns to Nevill back is the Aga and that they were purely accidental people! Purely accidental!
Most people say Bamber burnt Nevill's back to check for signs of life.
This could have been done at any time after he had inflicted the 40+ injuries to Nevill with the rifle in the kitchen fight. He had the time, strength and equipment.
The police/raid team moving Nevill & pulling his trousers down for no reason, then denying it, does not work.
Nevill being knocked out for 3 hours. Then starting to ring Bamber's answering machine does not work either.
-
I do not agree with the theory that Bamber burnt Nevill's back due to spite, rage or torture.
He had just shot him multiple times, inflicted multiple injuries with the rifle & was inheriting his fortune. So any feelings of spite & rage would have been exorcised.
No point torturing a dead or dying man.
He also needed to keep focused on his mission and not get side tracked.
-
You see the thing is, if Bamber is guilty then his plan went pear shaped once Nevill escaped to the kitchen, at that stage he had lost containment of the victims, as it were!
Now just who was alive at this stage is debatable, but quite probably Sheila and a badly injured June at least!
Now you could probably assume that Bamber was out of ammo at this stage too, so he would probably beat Nevill unconcious with the rifle once he reached the kitchen before re-loading?
Although truth be told, Nevills injuries suggest a poking and whacking with the rifle barrel! Oh well, never mind!
So, at this stage what does JB do? Surely he must be in a right old state, desperate to get back upstairs to check if June is dead and then kill Sheila incase she has wakened and tried to flee the house? Yes?
But! if this is the case, why did Bamber decide to burn Nevills back instead, delaying going back upstairs for at least five minutes, probably nearer ten by the time he shot Nevill another four times in the head?
Or are we to conclude that JB went back upstairs to kill Sheila and June before he burned Nevills back and shot him in the head?
In all honesty, wouldn't the logical thing to do have been to just re-load as quick as possible once Nevill was out cold in the kitchen and then shoot him in the head before rushing upstairs?
Why oh why would JB just simply stop mid massacre and waste time burning Nevills back?? Its madness to suggest such a thing! Especially when the victims were seperated surely?
Gee whizz, Sheila or June could have smashed a window and cried for help or anything, yet Bamber thinks its more important to heat up the barrel of the rifle for five minutes to check for signs of life? Just shoot him for christs sake and get back upstairs ASAP!!!!
What on earth was the need to resrict the amount of bullets Nevill received anyway??? Did he think less bullets would point to a guilty Sheila? If that was the reason why did he put two bullets into Junes skull and eight into the boys??
Truth is, there was absolutely no need to burn Nevills back, no logical reason whatsoever, and no real suitable time to do so in the middle of the massacre!
No, we have to accept that the most logical reason for the burns to Nevill back is the Aga and that they were purely accidental people! Purely accidental!
If Bamber was checking for signs of life on his father then why couldn’t that have been the last thing he did before exiting the house?
-
Most people say Bamber burnt Nevill's back to check for signs of life.
This could have been done at any time after he had inflicted the 40+ injuries to Nevill with the rifle in the kitchen fight. He had the time, strength and equipment.
The police/raid team moving Nevill & pulling his trousers down for no reason, then denying it, does not work.
Nevill being knocked out for 3 hours. Then starting to ring Bamber's answering machine does not work either.
You say that Bamber had the time to burn Nevills back, Adam, but not when he did so?
-
If Bamber was checking for signs of life on his father then why couldn’t that have been the last thing he did before exiting the house?
But why waste time and go to all that bother checking for signs of life when all he had to was put a bullet in Nevills head just like all the other victims? as I said, what was special about Nevill? and why risk leaving tell tale signs on his back?
Do you really think it makes any sense, Vertigo? I certainly dont!
-
You say that Bamber had the time to burn Nevills back, Adam, but not when he did so?
It could have been at any time after the kitchen fight & before he excited out of the kitchen window.
Up to him.
-
But why waste time and go to all that bother checking for signs of life when all he had to was put a bullet in Nevills head just like all the other victims? as I said, what was special about Nevill? and why risk leaving tell tale signs on his back?
Do you really think it makes any sense, Vertigo? I certainly dont!
He had already put 4 bullets in him upstairs. Plenty of life still left in Nevill.
He had no time constraints.
-
But why waste time and go to all that bother checking for signs of life when all he had to was put a bullet in Nevills head just like all the other victims? as I said, what was special about Nevill? and why risk leaving tell tale signs on his back?
Do you really think it makes any sense, Vertigo? I certainly dont!
Who know? Perhaps he saw Nevill twitch, or thought he did. Bamber would probably have been a bit huped up at the time considering what he’d just done so maybe he wasn’t acting with 100% cool hard logic, eh? I mean I can lock my front door before going to work and then have to walk back home after five minutes on the road to double check even though I’m pretty sure I did it.
-
Who know? Perhaps he saw Nevill twitch, or thought he did. Bamber would probably have been a bit huped up at the time considering what he’d just done so maybe he wasn’t acting with 100% cool hard logic, eh? I mean I can lock my front door before going to work and then have to walk back home after five minutes on the road to double check even though I’m pretty sure I did it.
Ha ha! Sounds like you've got a touch of OCD like myself, Vertigo!
I'm always re-checking doors too!
-
It could have been at any time after the kitchen fight & before he excited out of the kitchen window.
Up to him.
But as I said, what about dealing with the other victims, dont they come into it, Adam?
-
But as I said, what about dealing with the other victims, dont they come into it, Adam?
The crime scene showed he did not forget about anyone.
-
The crime scene showed he did not forget about anyone.
I think thats what is called a cop out, or at least avoiding the question anyway, Adam!
Seems it isn't even that easy to produce a credible scenario where Bamber deliberately burns Nevills back!
This is the thing, guilters and supporters alike give their view of certain aspects of the murders, like the burns to Nevills back etc, but few give a complete crime scene scenario tying it all together!
-
I think thats what is called a cop out, or at least avoiding the question anyway, Adam!
Seems it isn't even that easy to produce a credible scenario where Bamber deliberately burns Nevills back!
This is the thing, guilters and supporters alike give their view of certain aspects of the murders, like the burns to Nevills back etc, but few give a complete crime scene scenario tying it all together!
He burnt his back after the kitchen fight and before his kitchen window exit.
Would only take minutes. Up to him when he did it.
Not sure what the problem is.
-
Bamber did say in his 2012 CCRC application the rifle nozzle burnt Nevill.
If correct it was after the shooting had been done and the silencer put away.
Nevill had already been lifted onto the coal scuttle/chair for his 5-8 head shots. So a spontaneous decision to burn his back to check for signs of life.
-
But why waste time and go to all that bother checking for signs of life when all he had to was put a bullet in Nevills head just like all the other victims? as I said, what was special about Nevill? and why risk leaving tell tale signs on his back?
Do you really think it makes any sense, Vertigo? I certainly dont!
Here's a decent reason: Nevill's lifeless body shifted, no doubt ending up in that awkward, unnatural position, as Bamber was collecting himself after the struggle. He turns and, using his knowledge of that firearm, knowing it can burn skin which he may have experienced himself, burns Nevill to check for a reaction.
Bamber removed the moderator after the attack, so prodding him with the hot muzzle makes perfect sense, as he needed the moderator to cool prior to pocketing it (he probably stuck it in the box as an after thought at a later time) and wouldn't have wanted to put it back on to shoot him again.
Edit: It may be that the moderator was removed once only Nevill was left alive, or Sheila was in a state of incapacitation, but no dead at that point. This also fits with the revisionism, as Bamber stages Sheila's body (and the comically obvious bible placement), he realises the moderator had to be removed because she can't physically reach the trigger from a reverse thumb position (being 5ft nothing and all that).
-
I think thats what is called a cop out, or at least avoiding the question anyway, Adam!
Seems it isn't even that easy to produce a credible scenario where Bamber deliberately burns Nevills back!
This is the thing, guilters and supporters alike give their view of certain aspects of the murders, like the burns to Nevills back etc, but few give a complete crime scene scenario tying it all together!
It’s very easy to provide a credible scenario where Bamber deliberately burns Nevill’s back. Far less easy to provide a credible scenario in which Sheila spends three hours indulging in self care and a bit of correspondence between killing 3 of her family members and finally getting round to dispatching the fourth.
-
I think Bamber crept in, knowing Nevill's routine of G&T and dozing off downstairs, shot all upstairs as they were executed with close contact shots, with no signs of movement or struggle. Sheila is mortally wounded and at this point Nevill hears a commotion and goes to investigate. Either the life or death struggle ensues, Nevill attempts a phonecall, or Nevill attempts a phonecall but Bamber springs on him (probably logically the latter).
Once he subdues Nevill he goes back up and creates his absurd 'suicide by two shots' scenario.
If the building walls and doors are factored in, coupled with the use of the moderator, Bamber chose to take his chance killing Nevill last knowing he might be able to subdue the children, June and Sheila pretty quickly. If it's the other way around there's a chance all four upstairs occupants would be running around screaming, which would ruin any chance of a staged suicide.
June also had to be killed first to stop her using the upstairs phone.
-
Here's a decent reason: Nevill's lifeless body shifted, no doubt ending up in that awkward, unnatural position, as Bamber was collecting himself after the struggle. He turns and, using his knowledge of that firearm, knowing it can burn skin which he may have experienced himself, burns Nevill to check for a reaction.
Bamber removed the moderator after the attack, so prodding him with the hot muzzle makes perfect sense, as he needed the moderator to cool prior to pocketing it (he probably stuck it in the box as an after thought at a later time) and wouldn't have wanted to put it back on to shoot him again.
Edit: It may be that the moderator was removed once only Nevill was left alive, or Sheila was in a state of incapacitation, but no dead at that point. This also fits with the revisionism, as Bamber stages Sheila's body (and the comically obvious bible placement), he realises the moderator had to be removed because she can't physically reach the trigger from a reverse thumb position (being 5ft nothing and all that).
Sorry, General, gut it isn't a decent reason!
Same answer, if he saw Nevill move, SHOOT HIM!!! Besides, as I was saying, June needed head shots to finish her off so why wouldn't JB have done this to Nevill once he re-loaded anyway?
Nevill had managed to struggle to the kitchen remember! Are we to believe that JB thought a beating would suffice to finish him off? No way, I dont buy that!
Anyway the evidence shows that Nevill was prodded and whacked with the rifle barrel once he reached the kitchen, is this something Bamber would bother doing?
This is another logical argument to dismiss any terrific struggle in the kitchen, I mean, how could a terrific struggle consist of someone being continually prodded and whacked with the rifle?? Are we to believe that JB and his dad were dancing around the kitchen a few meters appart with JB poking and whacking Nevill?? RIDICULOUS RUBBISH!! Nevill was obviously stationary, holding up his one good arm as the killer prodded him!! probably slumped on a chair ready to topple onto the scuttle! The lamp shade was probably smashed at this time too and Nevills watch was hooked by the sights and pulled off!
But no real beating took place at this stage and once Nevill was beyond fighting back Sheila kept an eye on him while she re-loaded the rifle with the bullets spread out beside the phone!
Then Sheila put four bullets into Nevills head to make sure he couldn't get up again, she had learned her lesson with June getting out of bed and struggling, she had to make sure!
The Bible was picked up and moved by Ron Cook, and Sheila was five feet seven I believe!
But no, I dont think you have given a decent reason for burning Nevills back, General, I dont think one exists!
-
It’s very easy to provide a credible scenario where Bamber deliberately burns Nevill’s back. Far less easy to provide a credible scenario in which Sheila spends three hours indulging in self care and a bit of correspondence between killing 3 of her family members and finally getting round to dispatching the fourth.
I know it may sound far fetched, Vertigo, but once you have eliminated all other possibilities as they say!
-
I know it may sound far fetched, Vertigo, but once you have eliminated all other possibilities as they say!
Have you eliminated the possibility that the back injuries weren’t even caused that night? If so how did you arrive at this conclusion?
-
Sorry, General, gut it isn't a decent reason!
Same answer, if he saw Nevill move, SHOOT HIM!!! Besides, as I was saying, June needed head shots to finish her off so why wouldn't JB have done this to Nevill once he re-loaded anyway?
Nevill had managed to struggle to the kitchen remember! Are we to believe that JB thought a beating would suffice to finish him off? No way, I dont buy that!
Anyway the evidence shows that Nevill was prodded and whacked with the rifle barrel once he reached the kitchen, is this something Bamber would bother doing?
This is another logical argument to dismiss any terrific struggle in the kitchen, I mean, how could a terrific struggle consist of someone being continually prodded and whacked with the rifle?? Are we to believe that JB and his dad were dancing around the kitchen a few meters appart with JB poking and whacking Nevill?? RIDICULOUS RUBBISH!! Nevill was obviously stationary, holding up his one good arm as the killer prodded him!! probably slumped on a chair ready to topple onto the scuttle! The lamp shade was probably smashed at this time too and Nevills watch was hooked by the sights and pulled off!
But no real beating took place at this stage and once Nevill was beyond fighting back Sheila kept an eye on him while she re-loaded the rifle with the bullets spread out beside the phone!
Then Sheila put four bullets into Nevills head to make sure he couldn't get up again, she had learned her lesson with June getting out of bed and struggling, she had to make sure!
The Bible was picked up and moved by Ron Cook, and Sheila was five feet seven I believe!
But no, I dont think you have given a decent reason for burning Nevills back, General, I dont think one exists!
Do you use all those superfluous exclamation marks when you write to the c..t in prison?
And you need to read...
Nevill woke, heard the obvious disturbance, went to investigate, there's the c..t shooting everyone (he may have disturbed him staging Sheila's suicide), Nevill, knowing that he needed to get to a phone, runs down the stairs, is shot on the way down and the struggle continued, with Nevill making it to the phone and managing to connect to the operator. Bamber can't shoot while he's got the receiver open, so he delivers blunt force trauma with the rifle butt, replaces the handset, then shoots him several times. The rifle either jams or he has to reload, as it was found in a ready position (quite how wee Bambi knew to ready the rifle again in a pschotic episode should be a fun one for you to explain).
Nevill is still mustering resistance, but the struggle ends by the aga. Bamber thinks it's done, but Nevill's dead weight settles, so he goes over and checks with the rifle muzzle.
And tell me again, what's your proposed sequence of shootings?!!!!
!!!!
!
-
Have you eliminated the possibility that the back injuries weren’t even caused that night? If so how did you arrive at this conclusion?
It was more or less agreed by Vaneziz and other experts that they were made that night Vertigo!
Besides, surely the likes of JB and other relatives and farm workers would have known if they were old wounds or recent injuries inflicted through work?
No we can be pretty sure they happened on the night of the murders!
-
It was more or less agreed by Vaneziz and other experts that they were made that night Vertigo!
Besides, surely the likes of JB and other relatives and farm workers would have known if they were old wounds or recent injuries inflicted through work?
No we can be pretty sure they happened on the night of the murders!
We can be sure the massive head trauma happened on the night he killed them though.
I'm about the same size as Nevill was (fought for his family til death), if someone of Sheila's size hit me with a rifle butt, blindsided or not, I'd probably laugh, snatch the rifle and go and put the kettle on.
-
It was more or less agreed by Vaneziz and other experts that they were made that night Vertigo!
Besides, surely the likes of JB and other relatives and farm workers would have known if they were old wounds or recent injuries inflicted through work?
No we can be pretty sure they happened on the night of the murders!
That’s a pretty big assumption. Why would anyone (perhaps with the exception of his close family who were all dead) have necessarily known about these injuries? What if they’d happened earlier in the day, when we was working along for example? Would he have been duty bound to call around his extended family network and other farm workers to tell them about it?
-
Sorry, General, gut it isn't a decent reason!
Same answer, if he saw Nevill move, SHOOT HIM!!! Besides, as I was saying, June needed head shots to finish her off so why wouldn't JB have done this to Nevill once he re-loaded anyway?
Nevill had managed to struggle to the kitchen remember! Are we to believe that JB thought a beating would suffice to finish him off? No way, I dont buy that!
Anyway the evidence shows that Nevill was prodded and whacked with the rifle barrel once he reached the kitchen, is this something Bamber would bother doing?
This is another logical argument to dismiss any terrific struggle in the kitchen, I mean, how could a terrific struggle consist of someone being continually prodded and whacked with the rifle?? Are we to believe that JB and his dad were dancing around the kitchen a few meters appart with JB poking and whacking Nevill?? RIDICULOUS RUBBISH!! Nevill was obviously stationary, holding up his one good arm as the killer prodded him!! probably slumped on a chair ready to topple onto the scuttle! The lamp shade was probably smashed at this time too and Nevills watch was hooked by the sights and pulled off!
But no real beating took place at this stage and once Nevill was beyond fighting back Sheila kept an eye on him while she re-loaded the rifle with the bullets spread out beside the phone!
Then Sheila put four bullets into Nevills head to make sure he couldn't get up again, she had learned her lesson with June getting out of bed and struggling, she had to make sure!
The Bible was picked up and moved by Ron Cook, and Sheila was five feet seven I believe!
But no, I dont think you have given a decent reason for burning Nevills back, General, I dont think one exists!
Bamber was not doing any prodding to a standing Nevill.
He recieved 40+ bruises and lacerations to his head, face, arms & torso. Black eyes, a broken nose & his face looked deformed.
The rifle broke and Nevill"s watch smashed and fell off.
Sgt Bernard did say the bible was moved during photos by Cook. This was to show blood underneath.
The reason given for Bamber's back burning by most people is to check for signs of life.
-
Just to correct all the garbage that Nevill was moved from lying in front of the AGA by the TFU/TFG or any policemen, this is from a statement by A/Ps Peter Woodcock (20th Sept '85), who was one of the first raid team members to enter the kitchen and find Nevill's body perched on a chairback with his head in the scuttle...
-
Bamber was not doing any prodding to a standing Nevill.
He recieved 40+ bruises and lacerations to his head, face, arms & torso. Black eyes, a broken nose & his face looked deformed.
The rifle broke and Nevill"s watch smashed and fell off.
Sgt Bernard did say the bible was moved during photos by Cook. This was to show blood underneath.
The reason given for Bamber's back burning by most people is to check for signs of life.
When does the prodding to Nevills arm and the whacking to his shoulders take place in your scenario, Adam?
-
When does the prodding to Nevills arm and the whacking to his shoulders take place in your scenario, Adam?
During the kitchen fight.
It was hitting with great force. You don't get bruises and a smashed, dislodged watch from prodding.
-
Just to correct all the garbage that Nevill was moved from lying in front of the AGA by the TFU/TFG or any policemen, this is from a statement by A/Ps Peter Woodcock (20th Sept '85), who was one of the first raid team members to enter the kitchen and find Nevill's body perched on a chairback with his head in the scuttle...
Thanks Myster! So that means Nevill burned his back on the Aga between 12.00-3.00 then, right??
-
Thanks Myster! So that means Nevill burned his back on the Aga between 12.00-3.00 then, right??
You're obviously incapable of reasoned logical thought. No-one knows exactly what caused the marks/burns, least of all Boyce and co. with his fudged distances. Discussing such is fruitless too because they might have been the result of the stray red-hot fourth missing casing bouncing of the AGA wall onto his neck or even a minor farm accident occurring during daytime. They weren't crucial evidence in securing a conviction, period.
-
You're obviously incapable of reasoned logical thought. No-one knows exactly what caused the marks/burns, least of all Boyce and co. with his fudged distances. Discussing such is fruitless too because they might have been the result of the stray red-hot fourth missing casing bouncing of the AGA wall onto his neck or even a minor farm accident occurring during daytime. They weren't crucial evidence in securing a conviction, period.
Ha ha! The missing casing bouncing onto Nevills neck then jumping from mark to mark, thats a beauty, Myster! And what happened after the casing caused the three burns, did it jump off Nevills neck and disintegrate?
That really is the best one yet!
Anyway, the marks may not have been crucial evidence in securing a conviction, but by golly they may well be crucial in securing an acquital !!
-
Ha ha! The missing casing bouncing onto Nevills neck then jumping from mark to mark, thats a beauty, Myster! And what happened after the casing caused the three burns, did it jump off Nevills neck and disintegrate?
That really is the best one yet!
Anyway, the marks may not have been crucial evidence in securing a conviction, but by golly they may well be crucial in securing an acquital !!
That’s just not going to happen. Not in this universe anyway.
-
That’s just not going to happen. Not in this universe anyway.
So i've been told many times by guilters and supporters alike, Vertigo!
But!!!! Stranger things have happened no doubt!!!
-
So i've been told many times by guilters and supporters alike, Vertigo!
But!!!! Stranger things have happened no doubt!!!
Guilters? Is that what you call people of reasonable mind who know he's been convicted and will die in prison because he's a child killer? Is that the most creative pejorative epithet you could come up with? Is there a whole phalanx of Bamberettes safely locked in their online belief perseverance echo chamber dreaming up fantastic inconguencies to test the proven narrative?
Do you all send him sweaty draws, or do you take turns? You know he'll never crack one out into them, don't you, as they'll be confiscated. So if he writes back telling you he does, he's lying. Again.
-
Guilters? Is that what you call people of reasonable mind who know he's been convicted and will die in prison because he's a child killer? Is that the most creative pejorative epithet you could come up with? Is there a whole phalanx of Bamberettes safely locked in their online belief perseverance echo chamber dreaming up fantastic inconguencies to test the proven narrative?
Do you all send him sweaty draws, or do you take turns? You know he'll never crack one out into them, don't you, as they'll be confiscated. So if he writes back telling you he does, he's lying. Again.
You're a character, General!
-
Sorry, Caroline, who's 'they' and 'who' wasn't?
Can you expand a little please!
'They' are the POLICE and NEVILL wasn't moved by them! You have exhausted this 'theory' on the blue forum and now you have brought it here for another airing. It's not that guilty supporters are afraid of the Aga theory Snow, it's that they think it's RIDICULOUS and I have expressly told you that on the blue forum many times. You don't seem to get that it IS ONLY a theory and have invested your whole self in it. The whole things rests on the police moving Nevill - not only moving him, but literally perching him on a chair arm, with his head in the coal scuttle. For what reason? Also, he'd have been dead some time by the time the TFG broke into the house, so pray tell how he is still bleeding profusely from his head after being moved? We know he was bleeding profusely because of the large amount of blood that had ran down the side of the coal scuttle and pooled in the floor next to it.
-
'They' are the POLICE and NEVILL wasn't moved by them! You have exhausted this 'theory' on the blue forum and now you have brought it here for another airing. It's not that guilty supporters are afraid of the Aga theory Snow, it's that they think it's RIDICULOUS and I have expressly told you that on the blue forum many times. You don't seem to get that it IS ONLY a theory and have invested your whole self in it. The whole things rests on the police moving Nevill - not only moving him, but literally perching him on a chair arm, with his head in the coal scuttle. For what reason? Also, he'd have been dead some time by the time the TFG broke into the house, so pray tell how he is still bleeding profusely from his head after being moved? We know he was bleeding profusely because of the large amount of blood that had ran down the side of the coal scuttle and pooled in the floor next to it.
If truth be told, Caroline, I inadvertently ended up on Red via Twitter, posting about the Luke Mitchell case, but once on Red it was inevitable that sooner or later I would post about Bamber and the burns to Nevills back!
Anyway, for the umpteenth time, Caroline, my Aga burn scenario doesn't include the police moving Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after they entered the Whitehouse. That is the CT claim!!
-
If truth be told, Caroline, I inadvertently ended up on Red via Twitter, posting about the Luke Mitchell case, but once on Red it was inevitable that sooner or later I would post about Bamber and the burns to Nevills back!
Anyway, for the umpteenth time, Caroline, my Aga burn scenario doesn't include the police moving Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after they entered the Whitehouse. That is the CT claim!!
How did he get up there then?
-
How did he get up there then?
Ha ha! You're as bad as Caroline, Vertigo!
I presume you mean how did Nevill get up from the Aga and onto the chair/scuttle?
Well I thought I had made that clear in my recent posts, but apparently not!
Oh well, we will have to go through it all again.
OK, firstly the CT scenario, or at least the part of their scenario dealing with the burns to Nevills back.
To be quite honest, I dont really know what the complete CT scenario is anyway.
So, the CT [not me!] believe that Nevill was beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga around 3.30 on the night of the murders, he lay there burning his back until the police/TFG moved him to the chair/scuttle sometime after entering the Whitehouse at 7.40. OK? Have you got that, Vertigo?
And now, for one more time, this is what I think may have happened!
Nevill is beaten and knocked out by Sheila with the rifle around 12.00 on the night of the murders, Nevill falls against the Aga with fractures to his skull the rifle stock is splintered and cracked at this stage.
Sheila proceeds to kill June and the boys.
Nevill comes to around 3.00 and phones JB before heading upstairs, Sheila shoots him in the face and then the arm and shoulder as he flees back to the kitchen. Sheila follows Nevill and finds him badly injured sitting on a chair, she tries to shoot him in the head but he holds up his one good arm to sheild himself, Seila prods and whacks Nevill with the barrel of the rifle and he finally trips up and falls across the chair and scuttle exhausted!
Now at peace, Sheila shoots Nevill in the head!
So, do you see the difference, Vertigo? The CT have Nevill shot and killed around 3.30 and he falls against the Aga burning his back until the police move him to the chair/scuttle sometime after 7.40.
Alternativelly, I have Nevill simply knocked out while he is lying against the Aga from roughly 12.00-3.00, he then gets up before being shot and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle!
So, CT = Nevill dead whilst lying against the Aga from 3.30-7.40. [then moved by police to chair/scuttle after entry.
Me = Nevill alive [but knocked out] whilst lying against the Aga from 12.00-3.00. [then gets up, only to be shot and killed, ending up on the chair/scuttle]
Is that clear, Vertigo?
-
Ha ha! You're as bad as Caroline, Vertigo!
I presume you mean how did Nevill get up from the Aga and onto the chair/scuttle?
Well I thought I had made that clear in my recent posts, but apparently not!
Oh well, we will have to go through it all again.
OK, firstly the CT scenario, or at least the part of their scenario dealing with the burns to Nevills back.
To be quite honest, I dont really know what the complete CT scenario is anyway.
So, the CT [not me!] believe that Nevill was beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga around 3.30 on the night of the murders, he lay there burning his back until the police/TFG moved him to the chair/scuttle sometime after entering the Whitehouse at 7.40. OK? Have you got that, Vertigo?
And now, for one more time, this is what I think may have happened!
Nevill is beaten and knocked out by Sheila with the rifle around 12.00 on the night of the murders, Nevill falls against the Aga with fractures to his skull the rifle stock is splintered and cracked at this stage.
Sheila proceeds to kill June and the boys.
Nevill comes to around 3.00 and phones JB before heading upstairs, Sheila shoots him in the face and then the arm and shoulder as he flees back to the kitchen. Sheila follows Nevill and finds him badly injured sitting on a chair, she tries to shoot him in the head but he holds up his one good arm to sheild himself, Seila prods and whacks Nevill with the barrel of the rifle and he finally trips up and falls across the chair and scuttle exhausted!
Now at peace, Sheila shoots Nevill in the head!
So, do you see the difference, Vertigo? The CT have Nevill shot and killed around 3.30 and he falls against the Aga burning his back until the police move him to the chair/scuttle sometime after 7.40.
Alternativelly, I have Nevill simply knocked out while he is lying against the Aga from roughly 12.00-3.00, he then gets up before being shot and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle!
So, CT = Nevill dead whilst lying against the Aga from 3.30-7.40. [then moved by police to chair/scuttle after entry.
Me = Nevill alive [but knocked out] whilst lying against the Aga from 12.00-3.00. [then gets up, only to be shot and killed, ending up on the chair/scuttle]
Is that clear, Vertigo?
Yes all apart from 2 questions:
1) what is CT
2) why is it not possible that the scenario you describe wrt to Nevill’s demise could have been carried out by Jeremy Bamber himself?
-
Yes all apart from 2 questions:
1) what is CT
2) why is it not possible that the scenario you describe wrt to Nevill’s demise could have been carried out by Jeremy Bamber himself?
CT is the campaign team, Vertigo, [including JB] they claim the police moved Nevill and have put this to the CCRC.
Which scenario could have been carried out by Bamber, the CT one, or mine?
-
CT is the campaign team, Vertigo, [including JB] they claim the police moved Nevill and have put this to the CCRC.
Which scenario could have been carried out by Bamber, the CT one, or mine?
yours obviously.
-
yours obviously.
So you think JB would have waited three hours for Nevill to come round again before killing him?
-
Ha ha! You're as bad as Caroline, Vertigo!
I presume you mean how did Nevill get up from the Aga and onto the chair/scuttle?
Well I thought I had made that clear in my recent posts, but apparently not!
Oh well, we will have to go through it all again.
OK, firstly the CT scenario, or at least the part of their scenario dealing with the burns to Nevills back.
To be quite honest, I dont really know what the complete CT scenario is anyway.
So, the CT [not me!] believe that Nevill was beaten and shot to death before falling against the Aga around 3.30 on the night of the murders, he lay there burning his back until the police/TFG moved him to the chair/scuttle sometime after entering the Whitehouse at 7.40. OK? Have you got that, Vertigo?
And now, for one more time, this is what I think may have happened!
Nevill is beaten and knocked out by Sheila with the rifle around 12.00 on the night of the murders, Nevill falls against the Aga with fractures to his skull the rifle stock is splintered and cracked at this stage.
Sheila proceeds to kill June and the boys.
Nevill comes to around 3.00 and phones JB before heading upstairs, Sheila shoots him in the face and then the arm and shoulder as he flees back to the kitchen. Sheila follows Nevill and finds him badly injured sitting on a chair, she tries to shoot him in the head but he holds up his one good arm to sheild himself, Seila prods and whacks Nevill with the barrel of the rifle and he finally trips up and falls across the chair and scuttle exhausted!
Now at peace, Sheila shoots Nevill in the head!
So, do you see the difference, Vertigo? The CT have Nevill shot and killed around 3.30 and he falls against the Aga burning his back until the police move him to the chair/scuttle sometime after 7.40.
Alternativelly, I have Nevill simply knocked out while he is lying against the Aga from roughly 12.00-3.00, he then gets up before being shot and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle!
So, CT = Nevill dead whilst lying against the Aga from 3.30-7.40. [then moved by police to chair/scuttle after entry.
Me = Nevill alive [but knocked out] whilst lying against the Aga from 12.00-3.00. [then gets up, only to be shot and killed, ending up on the chair/scuttle]
Is that clear, Vertigo?
I was going to suggest that this was a load of old dog shit, but that would be doing a load of old dog shit a disservice. I'm not going to unpick it all, as it doesn't warrant my time. I lost 38 IQ points just by reading it. The forum's average IQ went down 2 points the moment you pressed send. An alarm went of in the webmaster's office, informing them that the intelligence lower limit had been breached for the first time.
Sheila 'knocks Nevill out with the rifle butt'. That's it. We can stop right there. In human history, has there ever been a recorded case of a 100lb woman procuring a rifle and rather than point the thing at their 220lb victim, decides to assail the 6ft veteran farmer with the butt - and succeeding? Feel free to consult Google and any AI platform you can find.
Even blindsided while asleep, although quite how she crept past Nevill to retrieve, check and load the gun is a new mystery you've introduced, swing the rifle butt (instead of shooting him in the back of the head) and successfully knock him unconscious? All logic dictates that she would have to kill him to leave the way clear to kill everyone else. Don't tell me, she was crazy at the time, so, yer know, logic and all that....
....and how did she wield the rifle? Two handed, with a 'prodding / thrusting' motion like you see on old war films? What about a two-handed baseball bat type swing? Perhaps a combination of the two - one hand on the stock, the other on the barrel, with a cricketing square cut? And all without the merest sign of damage to her nails and fingers.
....and why not fetch a lump hammer from the shed and brain him, killing him instantly?
-
So you think JB would have waited three hours for Nevill to come round again before killing him?
Well your theory has Sheila doing that, so why not? Perhaps he went for a lie down after his exertions, or read a book for a bit, or went to check on the livestock. Perhaps he had a shower to wash off all the blood, laundered his clothes, poured himself a couple of drams, watched a horror movie on the vhs (if they had one), or maybe he spent three hours admiring his bloody handiwork, getting off on it, or perhaps he spent the time tormenting his sister before killing her, all as plausible as any scenario you have involving Sheila.
-
I was going to suggest that this was a load of old dog shit, but that would be doing a load of old dog shit a disservice. I'm not going to unpick it all, as it doesn't warrant my time. I lost 38 IQ points just by reading it. The forum's average IQ went down 2 points the moment you pressed send. An alarm went of in the webmaster's office, informing them that the intelligence lower limit had been breached for the first time.
Sheila 'knocks Nevill out with the rifle butt'. That's it. We can stop right there. In human history, has there ever been a recorded case of a 100lb woman procuring a rifle and rather than point the thing at their 220lb victim, decides to assail the 6ft veteran farmer with the butt - and succeeding? Feel free to consult Google and any AI platform you can find.
Even blindsided while asleep, although quite how she crept past Nevill to retrieve, check and load the gun is a new mystery you've introduced, swing the rifle butt (instead of shooting him in the back of the head) and successfully knock him unconscious? All logic dictates that she would have to kill him to leave the way clear to kill everyone else. Don't tell me, she was crazy at the time, so, yer know, logic and all that....
....and how did she wield the rifle? Two handed, with a 'prodding / thrusting' motion like you see on old war films? What about a two-handed baseball bat type swing? Perhaps a combination of the two - one hand on the stock, the other on the barrel, with a cricketing square cut? And all without the merest sign of damage to her nails and fingers.
....and why not fetch a lump hammer from the shed and brain him, killing him instantly?
Then you go with the CT claim that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after entry then, General?
Or do you simply dismiss the Aga evidence alltogether?
-
Well your theory has Sheila doing that, so why not? Perhaps he went for a lie down after his exertions, or read a book for a bit, or went to check on the livestock. Perhaps he had a shower to wash off all the blood, laundered his clothes, poured himself a couple of drams, watched a horror movie on the vhs (if they had one), or maybe he spent three hours admiring his bloody handiwork, getting off on it, or perhaps he spent the time tormenting his sister before killing her, all as plausible as any scenario you have involving Sheila.
Well you may be right about watching a movie, Vertigo!
The Bambers did indeed have a vhs video recorder which JB took from the Whitehouse after the murders.
-
Then you go with the CT claim that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after entry then, General?
Or do you simply dismiss the Aga evidence alltogether?
It’s not aga evidence though is it? It’s one man with a piece of pig skin’s theory, that’s all.
-
It’s not aga evidence though is it? It’s one man with a piece of pig skin’s theory, that’s all.
Well the marks on the pig skin come from the Aga, and they match those found on Nevills back give or take. You keep on about all the coincidences re-Bruckner, yet you use every conceivable excuse to rule out the likelihood that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, Vertigo! Dont you?
-
Well the marks on the pig skin come from the Aga, and they match those found on Nevills back give or take. You keep on about all the coincidences re-Bruckner, yet you use every conceivable excuse to rule out the likelihood that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, Vertigo! Dont you?
No they do NOT, nothing like and you've been shown they don't, yet you're still rabbiting on about it.
-
No they do NOT, nothing like and you've been shown they don't, yet you're still rabbiting on about it.
"When you're in a hole, stop digging" is a well learned lesson, but as he appears to be well enroute to Australia, I guess he may be out of hearing range?
-
I was going to suggest that this was a load of old dog shit, but that would be doing a load of old dog shit a disservice. I'm not going to unpick it all, as it doesn't warrant my time. I lost 38 IQ points just by reading it. The forum's average IQ went down 2 points the moment you pressed send. An alarm went of in the webmaster's office, informing them that the intelligence lower limit had been breached for the first time.
Sheila 'knocks Nevill out with the rifle butt'. That's it. We can stop right there. In human history, has there ever been a recorded case of a 100lb woman procuring a rifle and rather than point the thing at their 220lb victim, decides to assail the 6ft veteran farmer with the butt - and succeeding? Feel free to consult Google and any AI platform you can find.
Even blindsided while asleep, although quite how she crept past Nevill to retrieve, check and load the gun is a new mystery you've introduced, swing the rifle butt (instead of shooting him in the back of the head) and successfully knock him unconscious? All logic dictates that she would have to kill him to leave the way clear to kill everyone else. Don't tell me, she was crazy at the time, so, yer know, logic and all that....
....and how did she wield the rifle? Two handed, with a 'prodding / thrusting' motion like you see on old war films? What about a two-handed baseball bat type swing? Perhaps a combination of the two - one hand on the stock, the other on the barrel, with a cricketing square cut? And all without the merest sign of damage to her nails and fingers.
....and why not fetch a lump hammer from the shed and brain him, killing him instantly?
... or use a sharp pointed cook's knife readily to hand from the kitchen drawer to kill them all, as women are prone to do in this country, like for example - Jemma 'decapitator' Mitchell, Jane 'Fergie's awful dresser' Andrews, Virginia 'Cheer up, at least you caught the bad guy' McCullough, and Penelope 'He's on the kitchen floor, bleeding to death with any luck' Jackson.
-
Then you go with the CT claim that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after entry then, General?
Or do you simply dismiss the Aga evidence alltogether?
You see, what you've done there is perpetrated about 13 logical fallacies in one sentence.
Feel free to explain all of my points instead of 'look over here, not there'.
Put your Magic Aga theory to one side for a moment and consider the chronology and pathology of the crime itself, which you've notcieably failed to do thus far.
Explain how Sheila killed Nevill.
Explain why she killed him first.
Explain how June, Sheila and the kids all slept through a monumental fight.
-
Well the marks on the pig skin come from the Aga, and they match those found on Nevills back give or take. You keep on about all the coincidences re-Bruckner, yet you use every conceivable excuse to rule out the likelihood that the Aga caused the burns to Nevills back, Vertigo! Dont you?
No I don’t and the two are not remotely comparable. You’ve already conceded that the mark caused on the pig skin by the largest knob on the aga didn’t even cause a burn on the skin, just an indentation, whereas the corresponding mark on Nevill’s body was smaller and the worst of the three marks judging by the photo. I am entirely correct when I say that it’s an aga theory, not aga evidence.
-
"When you're in a hole, stop digging" is a well learned lesson, but as he appears to be well enroute to Australia, I guess he may be out of hearing range?
Ha ha, very good April, very good indeed!
-
Ha ha, very good April, very good indeed!
Never mind replying to the low hanging fruit, answer my questions.
(Not you, April, the concept of Blogsie replying to anything other than the important issues)
-
Never mind replying to the low hanging fruit, answer my questions.
(Not you, April, the concept of Blogsie replying to anything other than the important issues)
I hear you, General. Thank-you ?{)(**
-
No they do NOT, nothing like and you've been shown they don't, yet you're still rabbiting on about it.
Negative, Myster, they do match!
As I have said, its all explained in Bamber vs the doc maker in the articles 'the Aga evidence' parts one and two!
-
Negative, Myster, they do match!
As I have said, its all explained in Bamber vs the doc maker in the articles 'the Aga evidence' parts one and two!
Back to square one for you, docmaker and all the other gullibles. His appeal has been rejected...
https://theupsetterstrikes.substack.com/p/bamboozled (https://theupsetterstrikes.substack.com/p/bamboozled)
-
No I don’t and the two are not remotely comparable. You’ve already conceded that the mark caused on the pig skin by the largest knob on the aga didn’t even cause a burn on the skin, just an indentation, whereas the corresponding mark on Nevill’s body was smaller and the worst of the three marks judging by the photo. I am entirely correct when I say that it’s an aga theory, not aga evidence.
Well it is evidence really, Vertigo! It is sitting with the CCRC being concidered as we speak.
-
Well it is evidence really, Vertigo! It is sitting with the CCRC being concidered as we speak.
It's been rejected, can you not read? An obviously biased statement from his supporters...
-
Well it is evidence really, Vertigo! It is sitting with the CCRC being concidered as we speak.
Whilst you may call it 'evidence'. It MAY be "sitting with the CCRC............" Whether, or not, it's "being considered" is an entirely different question. It might end up being recycled, ending up as one of you loo rolls.
-
Back to square one for you, docmaker and all the other gullibles. His appeal has been rejected...
https://theupsetterstrikes.substack.com/p/bamboozled (https://theupsetterstrikes.substack.com/p/bamboozled)
What on earth does that mean, Myster? Is the CCRC taking a break from looking at JBs submission till sometime in the future?
If so, they probably haven't looked at the Aga evidence yet! Sneaky!
-
It's been rejected, can you not read? An obviously biased statement from his supporters...
Ah, thanks, Myster!
So just the phone call and the silencers have been concidered then?
So it isn't so much a refusal, more of an update saying that the submission hasn't yet reached the thresshold to refer with the first three or four points that have been looked at?
-
What on earth does that mean, Myster? Is the CCRC taking a break from looking at JBs submission till sometime in the future?
If so, they probably haven't looked at the Aga evidence yet! Sneaky!
"To endless years the same"... mushy overcooked sprouts and lumpy gravy for Christmas Dinner in countless years to come.
They've examined your tired old hobbyhorse and carted it off to the knacker's yard (Issue 3)...
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/new-ccrc-submission (https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/new-ccrc-submission)
-
Whilst you may call it 'evidence'. It MAY be "sitting with the CCRC............" Whether, or not, it's "being considered" is an entirely different question. It might end up being recycled, ending up as one of you loo rolls.
Well it seems the Aga evidence hasn't been concidered yet, April, going by the articles that Myster has posted.
-
"To endless years the same"... mushy overcooked sprouts and lumpy gravy for Christmas Dinner in countless years to come.
They've examined your tired old hobbyhorse and carted it off to the knacker's yard (Issue 3)...
https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/new-ccrc-submission (https://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/new-ccrc-submission)
Do you mean issue 3, the integrity of the scene?
Not sure if the Aga burns are part of that issue or not, Myster! They were some of the last evidence to be submitted remember.
-
You see, what you've done there is perpetrated about 13 logical fallacies in one sentence.
Feel free to explain all of my points instead of 'look over here, not there'.
Put your Magic Aga theory to one side for a moment and consider the chronology and pathology of the crime itself, which you've notcieably failed to do thus far.
Explain how Sheila killed Nevill.
Explain why she killed him first.
Explain how June, Sheila and the kids all slept through a monumental fight.
'Explain how Sheila killed Nevill'=four shots to the head.
'Explain why she killed him first,'=She didn't! Nevill was killed last.
'Explain how June, Sheila and the kids all slept through a monumental fight=They didn't!June and the kids were dead by then, and Sheila wasn't in bed at all, she was one of the participants of the 'momumental fight'!
-
'Explain how Sheila killed Nevill'=four shots to the head.
'Explain why she killed him first,'=She didn't! Nevill was killed last.
'Explain how June, Sheila and the kids all slept through a monumental fight=They didn't!June and the kids were dead by then, and Sheila wasn't in bed at all, she was one of the participants of the 'momumental fight'!
OK Explain why she didn’t kill Nevill first but chose to only bash him on the head with a loaded shotgun and then leave him alive before going upstairs to kill everyone else.
-
Well it seems the Aga evidence hasn't been concidered yet, April, going by the articles that Myster has posted.
Or it was considered too irrelevant to give credence to? I'm not the only person with an Aga. Even with my limited mathematic knowledge it was obvious to me that Boyce's didn't have teeth. I've been perfectly happy to share my own beliefs/measurements with those who are more technical. All of them, having taken finer measurements, have concurred with my findings.
-
Or it was considered too irrelevant to give credence to? I'm not the only person with an Aga. Even with my limited mathematic knowledge it was obvious to me that Boyce's didn't have teeth. I've been perfectly happy to share my own beliefs/measurements with those who are more technical. All of them, having taken finer measurements, have concurred with my findings.
It doesn't matter what you or others have measured, April, unless you bend your head forward and lie down by the Aga and mark the three points on your neck before holding your head back and measuring the distances, then you are wasting your time!
-
It doesn't matter what you or others have measured, April, unless you bend your head forward and lie down by the Aga and mark the three points on your neck before holding your head back and measuring the distances, then you are wasting your time!
Have just read the press report. The whole thing has been chucked out. No mention of an Aga.
-
Have just read the press report. The whole thing has been chucked out. No mention of an Aga.
The whole 8 or 10 issues or whatever, April?
The whole shebang?
-
The whole 8 or 10 issues or whatever, April?
The whole shebang?
And, by the look of how it reads, the whole kit and caboodle, too.
-
Have just read the press report. The whole thing has been chucked out. No mention of an Aga.
It would have formed part of Issue 3. Moving of body or ham shank...
-
OK Explain why she didn’t kill Nevill first but chose to only bash him on the head with a loaded shotgun and then leave him alive before going upstairs to kill everyone else.
I cant really explain Sheila's thoughts or actions, Vertigo, I can only give a possible scenario that revolves around the known facts and crime scene itself!
-
I cant really explain Sheila's thoughts or actions, Vertigo, I can only give a possible scenario that revolves around the known facts and crime scene itself!
What do you think might be the reason she decided to render him unconscious then kill him later? Go on, have a pop at it, somthing that fits your version of events.
And did she use the sound moderator?
Answer both questions and you get a biscuit.
You see, killing Nev last only makes sense for one reason. Let's see if you can work it out.
-
It would have formed part of Issue 3. Moving of body or ham shank...
Ta for that, Myster. Doesn't exactly look like a serious scientific experiment, does it?
-
It doesn't matter what you or others have measured, April, unless you bend your head forward and lie down by the Aga and mark the three points on your neck before holding your head back and measuring the distances, then you are wasting your time!
The only people wasting their time are you and other Gullible travellers supporting a 5x murderer.
-
It doesn't matter what you or others have measured, April, unless you bend your head forward and lie down by the Aga and mark the three points on your neck before holding your head back and measuring the distances, then you are wasting your time!
Good God! Someone would have needed to hold him in that position to achieve what you're suggesting. A total waste of time if the Aga was on idle.
-
Ta for that, Myster. Doesn't exactly look like a serious scientific experiment, does it?
Wonder if they cooked the juicy shank in roasting oven, boiled some potatoes, carrots and sprouts on the hot plates and had a subdued dinner to mourn their failure at producing a desired result?
-
Wonder if they cooked the juicy shank in roasting oven, boiled some potatoes, carrots and sprouts on the hot plates and had a subdued dinner to mourn their failure at producing a desired result?
Reasonable compensation, under the circumstances, for the poor guy who had to be forced into such an uncomfortable position for hours! Hope they had some apple sauce handy.
-
If truth be told, Caroline, I inadvertently ended up on Red via Twitter, posting about the Luke Mitchell case, but once on Red it was inevitable that sooner or later I would post about Bamber and the burns to Nevills back!
Anyway, for the umpteenth time, Caroline, my Aga burn scenario doesn't include the police moving Nevill from the Aga to the chair/scuttle after they entered the Whitehouse. That is the CT claim!!
The STOP mentioning it then. The following was you right?
No, it wasn't possible for Nevill to get up from the Aga once JB left, he had four bullets in his brain, Vertigo!
If JB left him against the Aga,then it was the police who moved him sometime after entry at 7.40!
It isn't easy to come up with a guilty JB scenario which includes Nevill burning his back on the Aga, not without the police tampering with the crime scene!
-
What do you think might be the reason she decided to render him unconscious then kill him later? Go on, have a pop at it, somthing that fits your version of events.
And did she use the sound moderator?
Answer both questions and you get a biscuit.
You see, killing Nev last only makes sense for one reason. Let's see if you can work it out.
As I said, Sheila didn't hate her dad so mayhave been reluctant to kill him at first.
The silencer most certainly was not on the rifle when Nevill was prodded in the arm!
Anyway. you are the one with the enormous IQ, General, you tell me the reason why Nevill was killed last?
-
The STOP mentioning it then. The following was you right?
But dont you see, Caroline, I am merely pointing out 'all' the possible Aga burn possibilities!
Possibilities! Doesn't mean I agree with them.
-
But dont you see, Caroline, I am merely pointing out 'all' the possible Aga burn possibilities!
Possibilities! Doesn't mean I agree with them.
No, I don't see. It's not the first time you have mentioned the police moving Nevil. If you don't think that happened, then why mention it? I don't believe that the burns were caused by the AGA, or that they are relevant, so I don't post it as a possibility. Generally, if I don't find it relevant, I don't post it as a possibility. No one here is capable of knowing 'that you mean' or you motives for stating a certain point, unless you say so.
-
As I said, Sheila didn't hate her dad so mayhave been reluctant to kill him at first.
The silencer most certainly was not on the rifle when Nevill was prodded in the arm!
Anyway. you are the one with the enormous IQ, General, you tell me the reason why Nevill was killed last?
She didn’t hate him so just severely beat him so badly that he remained unconscious for three whole hours despite his back being horribly burned in three places by the Aga. Yer rigght…
-
She didn’t hate him so just severely beat him so badly that he remained unconscious for three whole hours despite his back being horribly burned in three places by the Aga. Yer rigght…
Nevill had a fractured skull, Vertigo, his normal reflexes would not have alerted him to the fact his back was slowly burning, although the burns may have played a part in making Nevill regain cociousness once they were fully formed!
-
Nevill had a fractured skull, Vertigo, his normal reflexes would not have alerted him to the fact his back was slowly burning, although the burns may have played a part in making Nevill regain cociousness once they were fully formed!
Whatever you say dear.
-
Whatever you say dear.
Ha ha! I do precious!
-
Nevill had a fractured skull, Vertigo, his normal reflexes would not have alerted him to the fact his back was slowly burning, although the burns may have played a part in making Nevill regain cociousness once they were fully formed!
When did he call Jeremy?
-
When did he call Jeremy?
Soon after he regained consciousness, Caroline!
With all of his might he pulled himself up onto a chair and dialed JBs number, only to say a few words in a very shaken state! Maybe he was in a rush to call the police also? Before summoning up the strength to get up and stagger upstairs to his fate!
-
Soon after he regained consciousness, Caroline!
With all of his might he pulled himself up onto a chair and dialed JBs number, only to say a few words in a very shaken state! Maybe he was in a rush to call the police also? Before summoning up the strength to get up and stagger upstairs to his fate!
How did he know she’d gone crazy with a gun if she’d snuck up behind him as he dozed in his chair and fractured his skull with it?
-
Soon after he regained consciousness, Caroline!
With all of his might he pulled himself up onto a chair and dialed JBs number, only to say a few words in a very shaken state! Maybe he was in a rush to call the police also? Before summoning up the strength to get up and stagger upstairs to his fate!
I don't recall there being a chair in situ near the phone, nor do I recall that JB acted with any sense of urgency. Indeed, I believe him to have claimed that he didn't think it was...............which would have explained why he wasted time phoning police. I'm inclined to think, from the ever more stupid responses you give to the reasonable questions put to you, that you're making it up as you go!
-
As I said, Sheila didn't hate her dad so mayhave been reluctant to kill him at first.
The silencer most certainly was not on the rifle when Nevill was prodded in the arm!
Anyway. you are the one with the enormous IQ, General, you tell me the reason why Nevill was killed last?
Here we go again, you sausage, you answer the question so I can rip it to bits.
...and the first bit - 'may have been reluctant to kill him'? This might make sense to you, but are you now suggesting that she somehow managed to bludgeon him senseless and popped upstairs and killed everyone else but him? Then when he regained his senses was quite annoyed at being beaten half to death and wanted to have a stern word with Sheila, so dragged himself upstairs?
Then, of course, she committed suicide with that commonly used method of shooting oneself in the head twice, uisng a long-barrelled firearm; a method used in a vanishingly small number of successful suicides. And don't get me going on the almost certain loss of motor fiunction following the first shot.
-
How did he know she’d gone crazy with a gun if she’d snuck up behind him as he dozed in his chair and fractured his skull with it?
I said Sheila took him by surprise, Vertigo!
I never mentioned sneaking up on him.
I said Nevill found her in the kitchen with the rifle.
-
I don't recall there being a chair in situ near the phone, nor do I recall that JB acted with any sense of urgency. Indeed, I believe him to have claimed that he didn't think it was...............which would have explained why he wasted time phoning police. I'm inclined to think, from the ever more stupid responses you give to the reasonable questions put to you, that you're making it up as you go!
Ha ha! I do add in the odd thought at times if it comes into my mind, April!
Adding to the 'authenticity' as it were!
-
Here we go again, you sausage, you answer the question so I can rip it to bits.
...and the first bit - 'may have been reluctant to kill him'? This might make sense to you, but are you now suggesting that she somehow managed to bludgeon him senseless and popped upstairs and killed everyone else but him? Then when he regained his senses was quite annoyed at being beaten half to death and wanted to have a stern word with Sheila, so dragged himself upstairs?
Then, of course, she committed suicide with that commonly used method of shooting oneself in the head twice, uisng a long-barrelled firearm; a method used in a vanishingly small number of successful suicides. And don't get me going on the almost certain loss of motor fiunction following the first shot.
Sheila shot herself in the neck first, General, then fell back and shot herself up into the head soon after!
I dont recall Vanezis mentioning loss of motor function after the first shot? He saw no problem with a two shot suicide.
-
Sheila shot herself in the neck first, General, then fell back and shot herself up into the head soon after!
I dont recall Vanezis mentioning loss of motor function after the first shot? He saw no problem with a two shot suicide.
Whilst you may not be aware that the first shot splintered her cervical vertebrae, you are surely aware that our limbs are connected to such, ergo, lifting her arms to take a second shot and keeping them steady enough to make certain the shot found its mark, would be an impossibility.
-
Whilst you may not be aware that the first shot splintered her cervical vertebrae, you are surely aware that our limbs are connected to such, ergo, lifting her arms to take a second shot and keeping them steady enough to make certain the shot found its mark, would be an impossibility.
I see, April!
Why didn't Vanezis point this out at the onset then?
I dont remember this being claimed in court either?
What about Nevills 'terrific' fight with two bullets in his vertebra, April??
-
I see, April!
Why didn't Vanezis point this out at the onset then?
I dont remember this being claimed in court either?
What about Nevills 'terrific' fight with two bullets in his vertebra, April??
It's readily available and what's more, I believe it was Vanezis who pointed it out initially. I don't believe he ever mentioned Nevill having two bullets in his vertebrae.
-
It's readily available and what's more, I believe it was Vanezis who pointed it out initially. I don't believe he ever mentioned Nevill having two bullets in his vertebrae.
The two bullets to Nevills face ended up in the vertebra of his neck, April, and were potentially fatal on their own! See Vanezis trial testimony. This adds to the reason why no terrific struggle took place in the kitchen.
Appart from the face shots, Nevill had a broken arm and shoulder wound, he was at deaths door by the time he reached the kitchen.
All that Nevill could do was sit down and hold up his good arm which Sheila prodded with the rifle [obviously no silencer attached]
Vanezis stated in court that Nevill would have survived for a short time after the two face shots!
One of the shots was interfering with his breathing.
How could Nevill put up a terrific struggle if he couldn't even get breath?
Its just nonsense children!
-
The two bullets to Nevills face ended up in the vertebra of his neck, April, and were potentially fatal on their own! See Vanezis trial testimony. This adds to the reason why no terrific struggle took place in the kitchen.
Appart from the face shots, Nevill had a broken arm and shoulder wound, he was at deaths door by the time he reached the kitchen.
All that Nevill could do was sit down and hold up his good arm which Sheila prodded with the rifle [obviously no silencer attached]
Vanezis stated in court that Nevill would have survived for a short time after the two face shots!
One of the shots was interfering with his breathing.
How could Nevill put up a terrific struggle if he couldn't even get breath?
Its just nonsense children!
You're not supposed to eat the crayons the nice lady gave you.
So you're fully versed in the order of the shots Bamber fired into Nevill, but you still can't explain how Sheila inflicted the injuries ergonomically?
Cherry picking can be added to your logical fallacy count.
-
You're not supposed to eat the crayons the nice lady gave you.
So you're fully versed in the order of the shots Bamber fired into Nevill, but you still can't explain how Sheila inflicted the injuries ergonomically?
Cherry picking can be added to your logical fallacy count.
Ergonomically?
Can you expand a little there, General?
-
Ergonomically?
Can you expand a little there, General?
How did she wield the rifle? The manner in which it was supposedly used. There's plenty of ways, pick one.
-
The two bullets to Nevills face ended up in the vertebra of his neck, April, and were potentially fatal on their own! See Vanezis trial testimony. This adds to the reason why no terrific struggle took place in the kitchen.
Appart from the face shots, Nevill had a broken arm and shoulder wound, he was at deaths door by the time he reached the kitchen.
All that Nevill could do was sit down and hold up his good arm which Sheila prodded with the rifle [obviously no silencer attached]
Vanezis stated in court that Nevill would have survived for a short time after the two face shots!
One of the shots was interfering with his breathing.
How could Nevill put up a terrific struggle if he couldn't even get breath?
Its just nonsense children!
I'm not going to be coerced into a segway here. You seem particularly well versed in Nevill's wounds, but less so on Sheila's. The first wound Sheila sustained also grazed her jugular, which means that whilst the sound was mortal, it wasn't immediately fatal. Lifting her arms and having to hold them steady to take a second shot could very possibly have changed that, causing a massive bleed. I wonder if you've ever held a rifle above your head from the barrel end and tried to swing it? Probably no more than you've been up close and personal with an Aga.?
-
I said Sheila took him by surprise, Vertigo!
I never mentioned sneaking up on him.
I said Nevill found her in the kitchen with the rifle.
So Nevill was standing up when he found her in the kitchen?
-
I don't think we're going to get anything remotely congruent from ping pong Blogs.
I'm still waiting for any kind of reply to the mode of attack. Probably because every conceivable concept is coming out ludicrous.
-
Soon after he regained consciousness, Caroline!
With all of his might he pulled himself up onto a chair and dialed JBs number, only to say a few words in a very shaken state! Maybe he was in a rush to call the police also? Before summoning up the strength to get up and stagger upstairs to his fate!
So, doesn't mention being cracked over the head, just "Sheila had got the gun"? Also, this scenario leads to a dead end. It doesn't prove a phone call and it doesn't tell you who the killer is. It's an embarrassing none starter, like someone trying to start a race at the Olympics with a banana!
-
How did she wield the rifle? The manner in which it was supposedly used. There's plenty of ways, pick one.
Do you mean when Sheila knocked her dad out, General?
Well I cant be specific, but obviously it was the stock/butt that made contact with Nevills head, causing a bit to splinter off the end and cause cracks around the trigger guard.
So take your pick! Either Sheila raised up the rifle and took the butt down on Nevills head or she swung it like a bat.
In my opinion, this had to happen at the onset of the massacre around 12.00, a severe beating later on once Nevill was shot to pieces just doesn't fit! as I have pointed out, he was at deaths door at this time and little threat.
Also, why would the killer prod and whack Nevill with the rifle barrel and then all of a sudden decide to break the butt over Nevills head? Doesn't fit, does it?
Likewise, the killer couldn't bash Nevill over the head first of all in the kitchen, else he would have been knocked out and unable to hold up his arm to be prodded, would he?
No the evidence undoubtably shows that Nevill had the rifle broken over his head at the outset around 12.00 and then recieved the prodding/whacking later on when he was at deaths door and only had one good arm to hold up.
Gee Whizz, its obvious Nevill was slumped in a chair for the whacking to his shoulders anyway, how else could the killer reach? Couldn't be done while Nevill was standing, could it?
No, its pretty clear what the sequence of events were, General, which fit in nicely with the Aga burns, dont you think, sir?
-
I'm not going to be coerced into a segway here. You seem particularly well versed in Nevill's wounds, but less so on Sheila's. The first wound Sheila sustained also grazed her jugular, which means that whilst the sound was mortal, it wasn't immediately fatal. Lifting her arms and having to hold them steady to take a second shot could very possibly have changed that, causing a massive bleed. I wonder if you've ever held a rifle above your head from the barrel end and tried to swing it? Probably no more than you've been up close and personal with an Aga.?
Ha ha! No i've never tried to swing a rifle, Vertigo,and hope I never need to!
But as I was saying to The General it isn't possible to know how Sheila held the rifle, only that the butt made contact with Nevills forehead!
And no, i've never got up close and personal with an Aga!
Oops! Sorry, I see that post was from you April, not Vertigo!
-
So Nevill was standing up when he found her in the kitchen?
Initially,Vertigo! But he may have sat down and tried to calm her down as was the norm, unfortunately Sheila may have been breaking down into a psychotic state just like Freddie Emani or whatever you called him had
witnessed previously. Then bang! She snapped completely!
-
So, doesn't mention being cracked over the head, just "Sheila had got the gun"? Also, this scenario leads to a dead end. It doesn't prove a phone call and it doesn't tell you who the killer is. It's an embarrassing none starter, like someone trying to start a race at the Olympics with a banana!
But surely it does tell us who the killer was, Caroline! You see, if we accept that the police did not move Nevill, and accept that the Aga burned Nevills back, then this can only mean that the burns were formed much earlier on when Nevill was still alive! Roughly between 12.00-3.00.
Doesn't that scenario rule out Bamber?
-
Yes, and its pretty obvious the silencer was never on the rifle either, why would the killer chase Nevill to the kitchen and immediately take it off before proceeding to prod him?
-
Initially,Vertigo! But he may have sat down and tried to calm her down as was the norm, unfortunately Sheila may have been breaking down into a psychotic state just like Freddie Emani or whatever you called him had
witnessed previously. Then bang! She snapped completely!
You don’t sit down if your daughter is threatening you with the blunt end of a shotgun, giving her an opportunity she wouldn’t have had otherwise to bash you in the head, that’s just ridiculous.
-
You don’t sit down if your daughter is threatening you with the blunt end of a shotgun, giving her an opportunity she wouldn’t have had otherwise to bash you in the head, that’s just ridiculous.
I never said Sheila was threatening Nevill before she hit him, Vertigo!
I said she snapped and took him by surprise.
-
But surely it does tell us who the killer was, Caroline! You see, if we accept that the police did not move Nevill, and accept that the Aga burned Nevills back, then this can only mean that the burns were formed much earlier on when Nevill was still alive! Roughly between 12.00-3.00.
Doesn't that scenario rule out Bamber?
How does it? Are you accepting as true the times he gives? We only have his word for it and as there's no one alive to dispute them,he can say whatever fits with his story, can't he?
-
I never said Sheila was threatening Nevill before she hit him, Vertigo!
I said she snapped and took him by surprise.
So he sits down before she has the gun in her arms?
-
How does it? Are you accepting as true the times he gives? We only have his word for it and as there's no one alive to dispute them,he can say whatever fits with his story, can't he?
But, April, we are governed by the phone call that JB made to the police around 3.30!
Dont you see, this means the only two possible times that the burns could have formed were either 'before' 3.30 or after!
The 3.30 phone call breaks the night into two parts as it were!
OK, we know JB was back home to his cottage before 3.30 when he called the police, right? So if the police didn't move Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle after entry, JB must have left him in that position if guilty, right?
So in that case, just when on earth were the burns formed by Nevill lying against the Aga??
It means that if JB is guilty then a similar scenario to the Sheila one took place where Nevill was against the Aga for a few hours and then somehow ended up on the scuttle before JB exited the house , right?
But this obviously means that JB broke in around 11.30 to kill his family and did not leave until around 2,30 once the burns were formed and Nevill moved or got moved to the scuttle, right? Which is just nonsense surely???
No, if the Aga burned Nevills back, and I sincerely believe without a doubt that it did, then it is very,very unlikely, if not impossible that Jeremy Bamber killed his family!
-
So he sits down before she has the gun in her arms?
Unlikely,Vertigo, if Sheila was in the kitchen, then she had probably already retrieved the rifle from the bench beside the back door.
-
But, April, we are governed by the phone call that JB made to the police around 3.30!
Dont you see, this means the only two possible times that the burns could have formed were either 'before' 3.30 or after!
The 3.30 phone call breaks the night into two parts as it were!
OK, we know JB was back home to his cottage before 3.30 when he called the police, right? So if the police didn't move Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle after entry, JB must have left him in that position if guilty, right?
So in that case, just when on earth were the burns formed by Nevill lying against the Aga??
It means that if JB is guilty then a similar scenario to the Sheila one took place where Nevill was against the Aga for a few hours and then somehow ended up on the scuttle before JB exited the house , right?
But this obviously means that JB broke in around 11.30 to kill his family and did not leave until around 2,30 once the burns were formed and Nevill moved or got moved to the scuttle, right? Which is just nonsense surely???
No, if the Aga burned Nevills back, and I sincerely believe without a doubt that it did, then it is very,very unlikely, if not impossible that Jeremy Bamber killed his family!
Okay, so we know JB called police from his cottage, and we know -roughly- what time he called. What we don't know is what time he got back to the cottage from WHF. I don't believe it would have taken him the 3 hours you're suggesting to dispatch the family. Given that Nevill was found with his head in a coal scuttle, and there has never been a previous suggestion of him being anywhere other, you appear to be the only poster -between the two forum known to me- who puts this theory forward.
-
I never said Sheila was threatening Nevill before she hit him, Vertigo!
I said she snapped and took him by surprise.
She snapped, went to the gun cupboard, unlocked it, found the gun, checked the breach, loaded it, waltzed back out, didn't shoot him with it, but decided to take him on physically and bludgeoned him unconscious in a manner you can't conceive let alone describe. And Nevill just sat there while she armed herself.
It's imbecilic.
-
Yes, and its pretty obvious the silencer was never on the rifle either, why would the killer chase Nevill to the kitchen and immediately take it off before proceeding to prod him?
Here it is, finally, the massive hole in your narrative and you still haven't spotted it.
I'll wait a wee while to see if you can connect the dots. As soon as you put it together your story will unravel.
-
She snapped, went to the gun cupboard, unlocked it, found the gun, checked the breach, loaded it, waltzed back out, didn't shoot him with it, but decided to take him on physically and bludgeoned him unconscious in a manner you can't conceive let alone describe. And Nevill just sat there while she armed herself.
It's imbecilic.
Bamber claimed he left the rifle out, leaning against the settle with a 10-round loaded magazine on its seat in the rear hall/scullery, and that Sheila saw it as a sign that she could/should use it to kill her family. Utter bollix, as you would say.
Settle on the left under a coat-rack here...
-
Bamber claimed he left the rifle out, leaning against the settle with a 10-round loaded magazine on its seat in the rear hall/scullery, and that Sheila saw it as a sign that she could/should use it to kill her family. Utter bollix, as you would say.
Settle on the left under a coat-rack here...
Always good to receive accurate information from an expert.
It's been a while since I rabbit-holed this. I've retained a lot of it, but these details I just take a fly at instead of researching.
Did he visit the farm the day before? Again, I can't remember, but I have a vague notion of him premeditating.
-
Always good to receive accurate information from an expert.
It's been a while since I rabbit-holed this. I've retained a lot of it, but these details I just take a fly at instead of researching.
Did he visit the farm the day before? Again, I can't remember, but I have a vague notion of him premeditating.
He worked there every day at rapeseed harvest time early August, toiling on his tractor from dawn to dusk.
-
Always good to receive accurate information from an expert.
It's been a while since I rabbit-holed this. I've retained a lot of it, but these details I just take a fly at instead of researching.
Did he visit the farm the day before? Again, I can't remember, but I have a vague notion of him premeditating.
There's a strong possibility that he would have. Workers, during harvest, start at first light, usually stopping for breakfast around 10am. It's reasonable to assume JB wouldn't have made sandwiches before leaving Goldhanger so I'm guessing that breakfast was provided by June or Jean (housekeeper).
-
Unlikely,Vertigo, if Sheila was in the kitchen, then she had probably already retrieved the rifle from the bench beside the back door.
So he sits down to enable her to smash him round the head with a rifle. Got ya.
-
Okay, so we know JB called police from his cottage, and we know -roughly- what time he called. What we don't know is what time he got back to the cottage from WHF. I don't believe it would have taken him the 3 hours you're suggesting to dispatch the family. Given that Nevill was found with his head in a coal scuttle, and there has never been a previous suggestion of him being anywhere other, you appear to be the only poster -between the two forum known to me- who puts this theory forward.
You said it, April! IT WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN JB THREE HOURS TO KILL HIS FAMILY!!! Nuff said!
-
She snapped, went to the gun cupboard, unlocked it, found the gun, checked the breach, loaded it, waltzed back out, didn't shoot him with it, but decided to take him on physically and bludgeoned him unconscious in a manner you can't conceive let alone describe. And Nevill just sat there while she armed herself.
It's imbecilic.
Sheila had already retrieved the rifle before Nevill found her in the kitchen, General!
-
Here it is, finally, the massive hole in your narrative and you still haven't spotted it.
I'll wait a wee while to see if you can connect the dots. As soon as you put it together your story will unravel.
Ha ha! Sounds interesting, General! Cant wait!
-
So he sits down to enable her to smash him round the head with a rifle. Got ya.
No one knows exactly what happened in the Whitehouse that night, Vertigo!
All we can do is to try and join the dots as best we can, right? now, for the life of me, I cant think of any other way that Nevill ended up lying against the Aga apart from being injured by Sheila! But!!!! i'm open to all suggestions!
-
You said it, April! IT WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN JB THREE HOURS TO KILL HIS FAMILY!!! Nuff said!
But we have no way of knowing, for certain, what were the time-lines, ergo, all we can do is speculate and come up with ever more ludicrous scenarios...............Nuff said!
-
No one knows exactly what happened in the Whitehouse that night, Vertigo!
All we can do is to try and join the dots as best we can, right? now, for the life of me, I cant think of any other way that Nevill ended up lying against the Aga apart from being injured by Sheila! But!!!! i'm open to all suggestions!
But no one actually saw him in that position. It's only in your mind.
-
But we have no way of knowing, for certain, what were the time-lines, ergo, all we can do is speculate and come up with ever more ludicrous scenarios...............Nuff said!
Well again, the 3.30 call tells us a lot as far as JB is concerned, it obviously means that everything must have done and dusted at the Whitehouse by that time, if he is guilty! So we are back to the fact that he must have been in the house from around 11.30-2.30 while Nevills back was burned! Right, April? And you dont believe any more than I do, or indeed any jury would do, that JB took over three hours to kill his family! No way!
-
But no one actually saw him in that position. It's only in your mind.
Deep down, I suspect you think there is a good chance that the Aga burned Nevills back, April, and the ramifications of this!
-
Ha ha! Sounds interesting, General! Cant wait!
It's me who's waiting.
-
Well again, the 3.30 call tells us a lot as far as JB is concerned, it obviously means that everything must have done and dusted at the Whitehouse by that time, if he is guilty! So we are back to the fact that he must have been in the house from around 11.30-2.30 while Nevills back was burned! Right, April? And you dont believe any more than I do, or indeed any jury would do, that JB took over three hours to kill his family! No way!
You can't just make times up to fit your narrative.
-
Deep down, I suspect you think there is a good chance that the Aga burned Nevills back, April, and the ramifications of this!
After having doubted your claims from the start, and taken my own measurements -ok, not perfect- that were picked up, worked on and perfected by those more knowledgeable than I, confirming my doubts, do you really "think there is a good chance" I'd believe "that the Aga burned Nevill's back"?
-
Well again, the 3.30 call tells us a lot as far as JB is concerned, it obviously means that everything must have done and dusted at the Whitehouse by that time, if he is guilty! So we are back to the fact that he must have been in the house from around 11.30-2.30 while Nevills back was burned! Right, April? And you dont believe any more than I do, or indeed any jury would do, that JB took over three hours to kill his family! No way!
I suspect this "US" you constantly include in your posts is tantamount to the Royal "WE"?
-
You can't just make times up to fit your narrative.
But there is no other alternative, General!
If the burns weren't formed between 3.30-7.40 then they must have been formed around 11.30-2.30, right?
-
After having doubted your claims from the start, and taken my own measurements -ok, not perfect- that were picked up, worked on and perfected by those more knowledgeable than I, confirming my doubts, do you really "think there is a good chance" I'd believe "that the Aga burned Nevill's back"?
Well they aren't exactly my claims, April! The Aga evidence was conceived by Yvonne and JB who got hold of Philip Boyce to carry out a series of experiments!
I am merely fitting a scenario around this!
-
But there is no other alternative, General!
If the burns weren't formed between 3.30-7.40 then they must have been formed around 11.30-2.30, right?
No.
-
I suspect this "US" you constantly include in your posts is tantamount to the Royal "WE"?
Ha ha! Yes, I suppose it is, April!
-
No one knows exactly what happened in the Whitehouse that night, Vertigo!
All we can do is to try and join the dots as best we can, right? now, for the life of me, I cant think of any other way that Nevill ended up lying against the Aga apart from being injured by Sheila! But!!!! i'm open to all suggestions!
You’re not though as you won’t countenance the possibility that the burns on Nevill’s back were caused by something other than the aga and you won’t countenance the possibility that JB is guilty.
-
You’re not though as you won’t countenance the possibility that the burns on Nevill’s back were caused by something other than the aga and you won’t countenance the possibility that JB is guilty.
Well my starting point is accepting that the Aga did cause the burns, and then forming a scenario around this fact, Vertigo!
That is the stance I am taking for this exercise.
-
Saw an article in the Guardian today. CCRC not referring the case to the Court of Appeal. Contains a new (ie new to me) point, namely that a 999 call was made from WHF at 6.09 AM on 6 Aug 85. I’m as skeptical about this as I am about Neville’s supposed call to Chelmsford police the same night because:
• the evidence for it is murky
• had the call been made, not only Blake (the officer monitoring the open line) would have known about it, so would the emergency operator, whoever he or she passed it onto, the person to whom it was passed & inevitably also the officers on the scene
• like Neville’s supposed call, it would have settled the case definitively, putting it beyond any doubt that Sheila was the killer & that as of 7 Aug 85 there was no doubt at all what happened & no need for further enquiry
• since the lead officer in the case pronounced murder-suicide at once, there would have been no reason to hide or suppress evidence of the call, the reputation of Essex police not being at stake
• a subsequent suppression of records of the call, a bizarre scenario, would rope in yet more conspirators who, for no reason or advantage to themselves & at great risk to their liberty, would have jeopardised their careers by suppressing or destroying evidence
ETA the article said 4 of 10 grounds had been considered. The CCRC is still considering the other 6.
-
Saw an article in the Guardian today. CCRC not referring the case to the Court of Appeal. Contains a new (ie new to me) point, namely that a 999 call was made from WHF at 6.09 AM on 6 Aug 85. I’m as skeptical about this as I am about Neville’s supposed call to Chelmsford police the same night because:
• the evidence for it is murky
• had the call been made, not only Blake (the officer monitoring the open line) would have known about it, so would the emergency operator, whoever he or she passed it onto, the person to whom it was passed & inevitably also the officers on the scene
• like Neville’s supposed call, it would have settled the case definitively, putting it beyond any doubt that Sheila was the killer & that as of 7 Aug 85 there was no doubt at all what happened & no need for further enquiry
• since the lead officer in the case pronounced murder-suicide at once, there would have been no reason to hide or suppress evidence of the call, the reputation of Essex police not being at stake
• a subsequent suppression of records of the call, a bizarre scenario, would rope in yet more conspirators who, for no reason or advantage to themselves & at great risk to their liberty, would have jeopardised their careers by suppressing or destroying evidence
ETA the article said 4 of 10 grounds had been considered. The CCRC is still considering the other 6.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jul/04/review-body-ccrc-refuses-to-refer-jeremy-bamber-murder-case-back-court-of-appeal (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/jul/04/review-body-ccrc-refuses-to-refer-jeremy-bamber-murder-case-back-court-of-appeal)
I think you mean Nicholas Milbank? Heidi Blake wrote The New Yorker article.
Regarding Nevill's alleged call to the police...
https://www.mediafire.com/file/tsqmckweq303th6/PC_MICHAEL_WEST_LOW_DEF.mp4/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/tsqmckweq303th6/PC_MICHAEL_WEST_LOW_DEF.mp4/file)
Transcript of former PC Michael West's appearance on the Mindhouse series, Episode 4 (around 30:50 mins in)...
Thirty years is a good time to come round and say -"That's not what happened". The phone call from Jeremy to me has always been a matter of interest to others.
This is the log of my phone call that I received from Jeremy, timed 03.36.
I'm the receiver 1990 - that was my Collar number. I've written - Father phoned Age 62 - "Please come over, your sister has gone crazy and has the gun" - the phone went dead.
So if you then look at the log that Malcolm Bonnett started... the sender he's recorded as CD, in brackets 1990. So the person who spoke to Malcolm Bonnett is myself. So all of the information on there refers to what I have said to Malcolm Bonnett. He's receiving it third hand and has transposed it third hand. Malcolm Bonnett recorded the time that I spoke to him at 03.26. Much is made that this referred to a phone call that Nevill Bamber made, but nowhere on there does that say Nevill Bamber, and of course if I'd rung Malcolm Bonnett ten minutes after he'd had a phone call from Nevill Bamber, you tend to think the first words out of his mouth would be - "That's a coincidence, Mick... I've just had a phone call from Nevill Bamber" - Nothing of the sort.
There was an error over the time... I looked at a clock. There was no time stamp on a computer that there would be today. Some of the errors were just human nature. It's risible in my opinion to think that at any stage I was part of a conspiracy. I was a young police officer, but that's all it was... a simple error made by a young police constable at half past three in an uneventful, up until then, night shift.
-
ETA the article said 4 of 10 grounds had been considered. The CCRC is still considering the other 6.
They took four years to examine the first 4. How long do you think it would take for the rest?
-
They took four years to examine the first 4. How long do you think it would take for the rest?
It seems a deeply flawed organisation. I'm not suggesting the outcomes are wrong, but the process and structure are lamentable.
-
Thanks for the correction, Myster, & for the useful further detail about Neville’s supposed call. It’s entirely what I would expect.
-
But surely it does tell us who the killer was, Caroline! You see, if we accept that the police did not move Nevill, and accept that the Aga burned Nevills back, then this can only mean that the burns were formed much earlier on when Nevill was still alive! Roughly between 12.00-3.00.
Doesn't that scenario rule out Bamber?
How does that rule out Bamber?
-
How does that rule out Bamber?
Well, April spelled it out for you, Caroline, JB would not take three hours to kill his family! No way!
-
Well, April spelled it out for you, Caroline, JB would not take three hours to kill his family! No way!
[/quote
I have spelled out nothing, other than to respond to a suggestion made by you, following a timeline created by you, which means nothing because it's something you've made up and can't be verified................'course, you could still be doing a wind up.
-
Well, April spelled it out for you, Caroline, JB would not take three hours to kill his family! No way!
[/quote
I have spelled out nothing, other than to respond to a suggestion made by you, following a timeline created by you, which means nothing because it's something you've made up and can't be verified................'course, you could still be doing a wind up.
Ha ha! Very good, April!
But no! Absolutely no wind up!
And I believe Jeremy Nevill Bamber and the CT will sooner or later agree that Sheila knocked Nevill out and left him alive lying by the Aga! I dont think they will have any choice, it is the only route left for them as far as I can see!
-
Well, April spelled it out for you, Caroline, JB would not take three hours to kill his family! No way!
Who said he did?
-
Well my starting point is accepting that the Aga did cause the burns, and then forming a scenario around this fact, Vertigo!
That is the stance I am taking for this exercise.
Right and as yet, you haven't been able to make it relevant to the murders.
-
Who said he did?
The Aga marks, Caroline, 'They' said he did!
If the marks took several hours to form as Philip Boyce claims, then JB had to wait in the Whitehouse until this happened, and then [somehow] get Nevill onto the chair/scuttle! Right?
-
Ha ha! Very good, April!
But no! Absolutely no wind up!
And I believe Jeremy Nevill Bamber and the CT will sooner or later agree that Sheila knocked Nevill out and left him alive lying by the Aga! I dont think they will have any choice, it is the only route left for them as far as I can see!
Quite likely JB will. He's tried most other hairbrained ideas, ie cake baking and poetry reading.. Why not Aga burning courtesy of Sheila. Maybe he'll suddenly remember her having body building lessons, too?
-
Well, April spelled it out for you, Caroline, JB would not take three hours to kill his family! No way!
Is this it? Is this the sum total of your theory?
You're relying on one of the more insignificant and obscure pieces of evidence to base your case upon.
You still haven't explained how Sheila battered Nevill. You stated that you don't know. In fact you've stated 'I don't know, none of us know, we weren't there' to anything that you can't even begin to explain.
Don't you see, you have your whimsical aga theory, whereas there's about 20 other aspects you dare not touch, because you can't come up with anything remotely rational.
For example, explain Sheila's appearance - no cuts, abrasions, bruises to hands or forearms, in fact none at all.
Her nails were in tact (this alone would probably be enough to dismiss a case against a live accused) having shot 25 times and reloaded multiple times. No gunshot residue on her hands / forearms which is an impossibility having fired 25 times. Clean nighty.
I know you say there was no 'almighty struggle', but there obviously was a struggle when Nevill incurred life-threatening injuries. Again, illogical to the point of absurd.
If you flip this on its head for a second, if you have the required cognition, if Sheila was alive, no court in the land would convict her given the described above. It wouldn't get to court, it wouldn't pass the simplest of tests. That's not reasonable doubt, it's absolutely no doubt.
You need to park your aga theory and just explain the above, then we can talk agas, pigskins and burns.
-
Is this it? Is this the sum total of your theory?
You're relying on one of the more insignificant and obscure pieces of evidence to base your case upon.
You still haven't explained how Sheila battered Nevill. You stated that you don't know. In fact you've stated 'I don't know, none of us know, we weren't there' to anything that you can't even begin to explain.
Don't you see, you have your whimsical aga theory, whereas there's about 20 other aspects you dare not touch, because you can't come up with anything remotely rational.
For example, explain Sheila's appearance - no cuts, abrasions, bruises to hands or forearms, in fact none at all.
Her nails were in tact (this alone would probably be enough to dismiss a case against a live accused) having shot 25 times and reloaded multiple times. No gunshot residue on her hands / forearms which is an impossibility having fired 25 times. Clean nighty.
I know you say there was no 'almighty struggle', but there obviously was a struggle when Nevill incurred life-threatening injuries. Again, illogical to the point of absurd.
If you flip this on its head for a second, if you have the required cognition, if Sheila was alive, no court in the land would convict her given the described above. It wouldn't get to court, it wouldn't pass the simplest of tests. That's not reasonable doubt, it's absolutely no doubt.
You need to park your aga theory and just explain the above, then we can talk agas, pigskins and burns.
But you cant flip it on its head, General, if Sheila was found alive it would mean she was the killer, wouldn't it?
Anyway, I think the Aga burn evidence is all the sum total you need to free Bamber! The burns are akin to fingerprints tying Nevill to the cooker, and this evidence undoubtably points to a guilty Sheila no matter what condition she was found in. Sheila had plenty of time to wash and change anyway, and all the time in the world to re-load between victims.
So!! Can we talk Agas, pigskins and burns, General? Lets have your views, sir!
-
But you cant flip it on its head, General, if Sheila was found alive it would mean she was the killer, wouldn't it?
Anyway, I think the Aga burn evidence is all the sum total you need to free Bamber! The burns are akin to fingerprints tying Nevill to the cooker, and this evidence undoubtably points to a guilty Sheila no matter what condition she was found in. Sheila had plenty of time to wash and change anyway, and all the time in the world to re-load between victims.
So!! Can we talk Agas, pigskins and burns, General? Lets have your views, sir!
Why does a suicidal maniac wash and change before blowing their brains out and getting all messy again? Doesn’t make sense but in your fantasy that’s what you have to say happened even though there is no evidence of it. The burns are not akin to fingerprints as no one can say categorically what caused the marks on Nevill’s back or when and are therefore open to interpretation. Fingerprints you can’t argue with.
-
But you cant flip it on its head, General, if Sheila was found alive it would mean she was the killer, wouldn't it?
Anyway, I think the Aga burn evidence is all the sum total you need to free Bamber! The burns are akin to fingerprints tying Nevill to the cooker, and this evidence undoubtably points to a guilty Sheila no matter what condition she was found in. Sheila had plenty of time to wash and change anyway, and all the time in the world to re-load between victims.
So!! Can we talk Agas, pigskins and burns, General? Lets have your views, sir!
So all this hangs on Sheila being found alive, does it? I guess it's up to someone to prove such. I wonder what she did with her bloodied clothes? I very much doubt they amounted to only one/two pairs of knickers, and I don't recall any being found.
-
Did she have two baths and changes of clothes that nightJoe Bloggs? You had her upstairs cleaning herself up after killing her mother and children, but then she went downstairs and according to you killed Nevill, but her feet showed no traces of the spilt sugar that was found in the kitchen, and her hands no gunshot residue so did she have another bath before killing herself? Actually for the latter she would have needed a bath after she killed herself so maybe that’s what happened.
-
Did she have two baths and changes of clothes that nightJoe Bloggs? You had her upstairs cleaning herself up after killing her mother and children, but then she went downstairs and according to you killed Nevill, but her feet showed no traces of the spilt sugar that was found in the kitchen, and her hands no gunshot residue so did she have another bath before killing herself? Actually for the latter she would have needed a bath after she killed herself so maybe that’s what happened.
It wasn't gunshot residue, broken nails nor lack of blood on Sheila's feet that convicted Bamber, Vertigo, the jury were mainly interested about whose blood was in the silencer and whether or not the Boutflours would gain if JB was found guilty! Indeed there was no hullabaloo in the first month of the investigation about such issues from Vaneziz nor the ballistics people, and the coroner had no problem in concluding suicide either!
All that was concluded in court was that the killer would have been expected to have gunshot residue on their person after firing 25 shots and handling the bullets, thats all! Besides, the hand swabs were rejected anyway, remember.
No, there was no 'strong' circumstantial evidence against Bamber, and the Aga evidence beats it all!
You see, discussing any case is like playing cards, Vertigo! Whatever cards you play in the Bamber case regarding blood on feet, gunshot residue or whatever the Aga evidence takes the trick, it is the 'TOP TRUMP' bar none!!
And thats that, children!!
-
Why does a suicidal maniac wash and change before blowing their brains out and getting all messy again? Doesn’t make sense but in your fantasy that’s what you have to say happened even though there is no evidence of it. The burns are not akin to fingerprints as no one can say categorically what caused the marks on Nevill’s back or when and are therefore open to interpretation. Fingerprints you can’t argue with.
The behaviour of a person with mental issues is wildly unpredictable, leading to some being locked up for their own good and the safety of others, Vertigo!
What Sheila got up to on the night of the murders may have been bizzare to say the least!
-
It wasn't gunshot residue, broken nails nor lack of blood on Sheila's feet that convicted Bamber, Vertigo, the jury were mainly interested about whose blood was in the silencer and whether or not the Boutflours would gain if JB was found guilty! Indeed there was no hullabaloo in the first month of the investigation about such issues from Vaneziz nor the ballistics people, and the coroner had no problem in concluding suicide either!
All that was concluded in court was that the killer would have been expected to have gunshot residue on their person after firing 25 shots and handling the bullets, thats all! Besides, the hand swabs were rejected anyway, remember.
No, there was no 'strong' circumstantial evidence against Bamber, and the Aga evidence beats it all!
You see, discussing any case is like playing cards, Vertigo! Whatever cards you play in the Bamber case regarding blood on feet, gunshot residue or whatever the Aga evidence takes the trick, it is the 'TOP TRUMP' bar none!!
And thats that, children!!
Strange it’s taken so many years for this particular card to move all the way to the top of the deck but if you think it’s going to spring JB from jail I think you’re going to be very disappointed.
-
The behaviour of a person with mental issues is wildly unpredictable, leading to some being locked up for their own good and the safety of others, Vertigo!
What Sheila got up to on the night of the murders may have been bizzare to say the least!
Were her clothes tested for Nevill’s blood?
-
Were her clothes tested for Nevill’s blood?
If, as suggested, she showered and changed, there must have been some very bloodied clothes laying around. It's been suggested that JB pushed his bloodied clothes into the Aga -not that there would have been room and the Aga may not even have been on- but I suppose Sheila might have washed hers?...............but hang on, there were no clothes found in the washing machine, were there? Just two pairs of bloodied knickers in a pail, and the children's play clothes in another.
-
Were her clothes tested for Nevill’s blood?
Yes as far as I know, Vertigo, but all clothing was conveniently destroyed with other exhibits in 1996 before they could be DNA tested.
-
If, as suggested, she showered and changed, there must have been some very bloodied clothes laying around. It's been suggested that JB pushed his bloodied clothes into the Aga -not that there would have been room and the Aga may not even have been on- but I suppose Sheila might have washed hers?...............but hang on, there were no clothes found in the washing machine, were there? Just two pairs of bloodied knickers in a pail, and the children's play clothes in another.
We only have Ann Eatons word as to what was in the pails, April, and just like the silencer they were found after the Whitehouse was vacated by the police.
I have always been suspicious of this! Wonder what the boys were doing to dirty their clothing to such an extent that they needed soaking over night?
-
Strange it’s taken so many years for this particular card to move all the way to the top of the deck but if you think it’s going to spring JB from jail I think you’re going to be very disappointed.
Well I think most people including JB thought the marks were made by the barrel of the rifle, that is why he got Philip Boyce to carry out tests about ten years ago to prove the marks couldn't be made with the silencer attached.
-
We only have Ann Eatons word as to what was in the pails, April, and just like the silencer they were found after the Whitehouse was vacated by the police.
I have always been suspicious of this! Wonder what the boys were doing to dirty their clothing to such an extent that they needed soaking over night?
At a guess, as they were due to go home the following day, from where they were going on holiday with their father, I'd say Sheila may have been trying to get ahead with their washing? You must have a thoroughly nasty mind to be suspicious of why they were soaking. Children can get their clothes dirty without trying, ie food spilled down the front, and in the case of twins as close as D and N, probably at exactly the same time!
-
The Aga marks, Caroline, 'They' said he did!
If the marks took several hours to form as Philip Boyce claims, then JB had to wait in the Whitehouse until this happened, and then [somehow] get Nevill onto the chair/scuttle! Right?
Right - Snow cracked the case, let's all go home and leave Snow to turn out the light!
(Just wait till he's gone and sneak back in). @)(++(*
-
It wasn't gunshot residue, broken nails nor lack of blood on Sheila's feet that convicted Bamber, Vertigo, the jury were mainly interested about whose blood was in the silencer and whether or not the Boutflours would gain if JB was found guilty! Indeed there was no hullabaloo in the first month of the investigation about such issues from Vaneziz nor the ballistics people, and the coroner had no problem in concluding suicide either!
All that was concluded in court was that the killer would have been expected to have gunshot residue on their person after firing 25 shots and handling the bullets, thats all! Besides, the hand swabs were rejected anyway, remember.
No, there was no 'strong' circumstantial evidence against Bamber, and the Aga evidence beats it all!
You see, discussing any case is like playing cards, Vertigo! Whatever cards you play in the Bamber case regarding blood on feet, gunshot residue or whatever the Aga evidence takes the trick, it is the 'TOP TRUMP' bar none!!
And thats that, children!!
And you're the only one backing it, you'd get great odds on this because they likelihood of striking gold is next to zero - child!!
-
And you're the only one backing it, you'd get great odds on this because they likelihood of striking gold is next to zero - child!!
Ha ha! Very good Caroline, very good!
But yes, I cant help it if i'm the only one in the mean time who can see what clearly happened at WHF that night!
It doesn't look like JB/Boyce/CT are going to get very far with their insistence that the police moved Nevill anyway!
-
Ha ha! Very good Caroline, very good!
But yes, I cant help it if i'm the only one in the mean time who can see what clearly happened at WHF that night!
It doesn't look like JB/Boyce/CT are going to get very far with their insistence that the police moved Nevill anyway!
They won't, because they didn't and there's a reason why you're the only one.
-
They won't, because they didn't and there's a reason why you're the only one.
And what would that reason be, Caroline?
-
And what would that reason be, Caroline?
Because it's bollocks.
-
Because it's bollocks.
Ha ha! Well you cant make it any clearer than that, Caroline.
But!!! I'll stick with it mean time, *&(+(+
-
Ha ha! Well you cant make it any clearer than that, Caroline.
But!!! I'll stick with it mean time, *&(+(+
I love emoji's.
The best part about your solo crusade is that it reeks of irony.
Bamber definitiely did kill his entire family, including shooting two defenceless, sleeping kids. That makes him a member of a depraved group of cnuts of the highest order.
The irony? He's almost certainly the 'victim' of a miscarriage of justice, given the generational ineptitude and misconduct that most police forces suffered / tolerated / encouraged at the time, and the can's been kicked down the road by all appeal judges and Home Secretary's and this will continue until he dies.
The funniest bit? He's going to die in jail - guaranteed. It's been decided. It's over.
So carry on, because for every post you submit it reminds me of how futile your attempts are and how he's going to rot in his little hovel, wallowing in his library of self-deceit.
But here's to him being castrated by an inmate with a sharpened spoon.
-
I love emoji's.
The best part about your solo crusade is that it reeks of irony.
Bamber definitiely did kill his entire family, including shooting two defenceless, sleeping kids. That makes him a member of a depraved group of cnuts of the highest order.
The irony? He's almost certainly the 'victim' of a miscarriage of justice, given the generational ineptitude and misconduct that most police forces suffered / tolerated / encouraged at the time, and the can's been kicked down the road by all appeal judges and Home Secretary's and this will continue until he dies.
The funniest bit? He's going to die in jail - guaranteed. It's been decided. It's over.
So carry on, because for every post you submit it reminds me of how futile your attempts are and how he's going to rot in his little hovel, wallowing in his library of self-deceit.
But here's to him being castrated by an inmate with a sharpened spoon.
No irony, I just dont get offended easily, General! After all, it isn't me thats rotting in jail!
No, i sincerely believe the Aga evidence points to an innocent Bamber, and I am hardly a solo crusader, its just that the other crusaders have a different guilty Sheila scenario at the moment, although i'm not quite sure exactly what it is. When the Aga evidence was presented, I thought wow, this is a breakthrough and surely points to an innocent JB, alas, most other supporters have been less enthusiastic about the possibility that the cooker caused the burns.
Although, JB and the CT have certainly embraced the Aga evidence but used it merely as a tool to claim the police moved Nevill upon entry, which is a mistake in my opinion as it seems the Aga evidence will be wasted and dismissed along with that claim.
But no, I dont think JB deserves the status you place him in, General, and therefore should not be attacked with a sharpened spoon! Ouch!
-
No irony, I just dont get offended easily, General! After all, it isn't me thats rotting in jail!
No, i sincerely believe the Aga evidence points to an innocent Bamber, and I am hardly a solo crusader, its just that the other crusaders have a different guilty Sheila scenario at the moment, although i'm not quite sure exactly what it is. When the Aga evidence was presented, I thought wow, this is a breakthrough and surely points to an innocent JB, alas, most other supporters have been less enthusiastic about the possibility that the cooker caused the burns.
Although, JB and the CT have certainly embraced the Aga evidence but used it merely as a tool to claim the police moved Nevill upon entry, which is a mistake in my opinion as it seems the Aga evidence will be wasted and dismissed along with that claim.
But no, I dont think JB deserves the status you place him in, General, and therefore should not be attacked with a sharpened spoon! Ouch!
That's all great.
The bottom line remains you backed the wrong horse and the cnut gets to rot, his only solace is found in getting pulled off by his fellow wrong un's, but constantly looking over his shoulder for the next would-be Napalming.
Can't come too soon.
-
That's all great.
The bottom line remains you backed the wrong horse and the cnut gets to rot, his only solace is found in getting pulled off by his fellow wrong un's, but constantly looking over his shoulder for the next would-be Napalming.
Can't come too soon.
If the Aga burned Nevills back, then I am pretty sure that I have backed the right horse, General!
So if I was you I would watch your hatred of JB, just incase the slam-dunk appears and blows the case apart!
If that were to happen, you would be so full of shame and remorse that you would have to pack up and join the Salvation Army to repent for your wrongful thoughts and persecution of JB!
And there you would have to remain for years, playing the tambourine and singing 'Bringing in the Sheaves' until you had earned the rank of General, General!!
SO! Beware my lad!! Curb that anger!
-
If the Aga burned Nevills back, then I am pretty sure that I have backed the right horse, General!
So if I was you I would watch your hatred of JB, just incase the slam-dunk appears and blows the case apart!
If that were to happen, you would be so full of shame and remorse that you would have to pack up and join the Salvation Army to repent for your wrongful thoughts and persecution of JB!
And there you would have to remain for years, playing the tambourine and singing 'Bringing in the Sheaves' until you had earned the rank of General, General!!
SO! Beware my lad!! Curb that anger!
I didn't read any further than 'Magic Aga'.
-
If the Aga burned Nevills back, then I am pretty sure that I have backed the right horse, General!
So if I was you I would watch your hatred of JB, just incase the slam-dunk appears and blows the case apart!
If that were to happen, you would be so full of shame and remorse that you would have to pack up and join the Salvation Army to repent for your wrongful thoughts and persecution of JB!
And there you would have to remain for years, playing the tambourine and singing 'Bringing in the Sheaves' until you had earned the rank of General, General!!
SO! Beware my lad!! Curb that anger!
And where will you slink off to when your theory is shown to be bollox?
-
I didn't read any further than 'Magic Aga'.
Ha ha! Yes you did, General!
You read it all and then took stock!
-
And where will you slink off to when your theory is shown to be bollox?
Mmmm? Where do you suggest, April? What can you conjure up?
-
Mmmm? Where do you suggest, April? What can you conjure up?
Back to the Luke Mitchell forum perhaps? It seeks to have gone a bit quiet there. Don?t tell me his supporters have given up already?
-
Back to the Luke Mitchell forum perhaps? It seeks to have gone a bit quiet there. Don?t tell me his supporters have given up already?
Nah! Just like JB and his team, LM and his team will never give up on freedom and exoneration of his alleged crime, Vertigo.
But yes, things are a bit quiet at the moment, even on Twitter! Although the Team did give an update about LM parole prospects not so long ago.
Not sure if any progress has been made with the testing of any remaining samples either.
-
Nah! Just like JB and his team, LM and his team will never give up on freedom and exoneration of his alleged crime, Vertigo.
But yes, things are a bit quiet at the moment, even on Twitter! Although the Team did give an update about LM parole prospects not so long ago.
Not sure if any progress has been made with the testing of any remaining samples either.
Out of interest are there any convicted murderers currently in prison who you don?t believe are the victims of a miscarriage of justice?
-
Out of interest are there any convicted murderers currently in prison who you don?t believe are the victims of a miscarriage of justice?
Ha ha! Of course most murderers are guilty, Vertigo! As a society we have to believe that the police get it right most of the time!
But some cases are special, where there is very little concrete evidence against the convicted individual, and said individual refuses to admit to the crime they are accused of, even if it keeps them in jail for longer than need be.
-
Ha ha! Of course most murderers are guilty, Vertigo! As a society we have to believe that the police get it right most of the time!
But some cases are special, where there is very little concrete evidence against the convicted individual, and said individual refuses to admit to the crime they are accused of, even if it keeps them in jail for longer than need be.
How ironic,then, that you're happy to pin this atrocity on Sheila with 'evidence' which is no more than conjecture. The facts are that she was more than adequately medicated, she'd only ever experienced episodes when she was unmedicated, and she'd never shown physical violence to anyone, other than herself. But never mind the facts, eh? Especially when they're brushed aside for a good yarn!
-
How ironic,then, that you're happy to pin this atrocity on Sheila with 'evidence' which is no more than conjecture. The facts are that she was more than adequately medicated, she'd only ever experienced episodes when she was unmedicated, and she'd never shown physical violence to anyone, other than herself. But never mind the facts, eh? Especially when they're brushed aside for a good yarn!
If the facts were so clean cut then JB would have no supporters nor a campaign team, April!
Its one of those cases as they say!
-
If the facts were so clean cut then JB would have no supporters nor a campaign team, April!
Its one of those cases as they say!
But the facts are there. It's just that supporters choose to ignore/twist them. The only occasions when she'd been psychotic were A) prior to diagnosis, B) as the result of failure to take prescribed medication to prevent episodes, resulting in her being injected to prevent a recurrence. Despite what is known of her previous behaviours and her consultant's knowledge of her, supporters insist she was psychotic, violent, and was adept with a rifle, NONE of which there is evidence of, so they make up scenarios which fit their insistence that she's guilty.
-
But the facts are there. It's just that supporters choose to ignore/twist them. The only occasions when she'd been psychotic were A) prior to diagnosis, B) as the result of failure to take prescribed medication to prevent episodes, resulting in her being injected to prevent a recurrence. Despite what is known of her previous behaviours and her consultant's knowledge of her, supporters insist she was psychotic, violent, and was adept with a rifle, NONE of which there is evidence of, so they make up scenarios which fit their insistence that she's guilty.
Poor Sheila was indeed very ill. April, finally being diagnosed with schizophrenia in the years before her death!
-
Poor Sheila was indeed very ill. April, finally being diagnosed with schizophrenia in the years before her death!
Very ill? Well, she certainly had been prior to being diagnosed and medicated. Sadly, because she failed to take her prescribed medication, she had a relapse which caused her to be readmitted to hospital. It was then decided to medicate her with injections to prevent another relapse. It's not impossible that, through the course of your daily life, you've met schizophrenics! For their own safety, they keep it to themselves. They're hardly likely to broadcast such a condition, are they? They are perfectly well as long as they are medicated. Unfortunately, those who take their meds orally, very often stop taking them when they feel well. It's at this point they can become dangerous to themselves and to others. They often wander at this point and fall through the 'nets' which protect them. Of course, none of this happened to Sheila because she was adequately medicated.
-
Very ill? Well, she certainly had been prior to being diagnosed and medicated. Sadly, because she failed to take her prescribed medication, she had a relapse which caused her to be readmitted to hospital. It was then decided to medicate her with injections to prevent another relapse. It's not impossible that, through the course of your daily life, you've met schizophrenics! For their own safety, they keep it to themselves. They're hardly likely to broadcast such a condition, are they? They are perfectly well as long as they are medicated. Unfortunately, those who take their meds orally, very often stop taking them when they feel well. It's at this point they can become dangerous to themselves and to others. They often wander at this point and fall through the 'nets' which protect them. Of course, none of this happened to Sheila because she was adequately medicated.
I believe Dr Ferguson or whoever it was originally diagnosed Sheila with psychosis and paranoia, and then later decided on paranoid schizophrenia.
So apart from the schizophrenia muddling her thoughts and disconnecting her from reality, Sheila thought that everyone was out to get her, even the twins! This threat alone may have caused Sheila to take drastic action if she feared for her life, who knows?
Anyway, in Sheila's case, I dont think it would have been as simple as taking her medicine for a guaranteed status quo regarding her well being, April!
-
I believe Dr Ferguson or whoever it was originally diagnosed Sheila with psychosis and paranoia, and then later decided on paranoid schizophrenia.
So apart from the schizophrenia muddling her thoughts and disconnecting her from reality, Sheila thought that everyone was out to get her, even the twins! This threat alone may have caused Sheila to take drastic action if she feared for her life, who knows?
Anyway, in Sheila's case, I dont think it would have been as simple as taking her medicine for a guaranteed status quo regarding her well being, April!
Certainly, in the grip of psychosis, Sheila's thoughts would have been muddled. However once on meds, she'd have been clearer, which was probably one of the reasons she stopped taking them, ie she thought she was better, ergo, no need for medication. Incidentally, this is probably why most schizophrenics stop taking oral meds. Ultimately, not taking them led to Sheila's second breakdown and return to hospital. During that stay it was decided that the best way forward was meds by injection.
Schizophrenics will never be 'cured'. However, with medication, the condition, along with the muddled thoughts which lead to psychosis, can be controlled. What you have gone to great pains to have us believe, Sheila's belief that "everyone, including the twins, was out to get her" didn't form part of the reasons for her second admission. This being verified by Dr Ferguson. Not that I think you'll be prepared to listen to any of what I've said because you're too determined to make Sheila responsible, at whatever cost to her reputation!
-
Certainly, in the grip of psychosis, Sheila's thoughts would have been muddled. However once on meds, she'd have been clearer, which was probably one of the reasons she stopped taking them, ie she thought she was better, ergo, no need for medication. Incidentally, this is probably why most schizophrenics stop taking oral meds. Ultimately, not taking them led to Sheila's second breakdown and return to hospital. During that stay it was decided that the best way forward was meds by injection.
Schizophrenics will never be 'cured'. However, with medication, the condition, along with the muddled thoughts which lead to psychosis, can be controlled. What you have gone to great pains to have us believe, Sheila's belief that "everyone, including the twins, was out to get her" didn't form part of the reasons for her second admission. This being verified by Dr Ferguson. Not that I think you'll be prepared to listen to any of what I've said because you're too determined to make Sheila responsible, at whatever cost to her reputation!
Well,i've been reading about the different symptoms and statistics of paranoid Schizophrenia, April!
Not a nice condition to say the least!
So! We have to decide if Sheila was the killer due to her mental illness, or that Bamber simply killed his family, including women and children, without any diagnosed mental illness just for the dosh!
One things for sure, if JB was the killer the Judge was right about the son of a gun being indeed evil almost beyond belief! Could someone be that evil without being nuts, April?
-
Well,i've been reading about the different symptoms and statistics of paranoid Schizophrenia, April!
Not a nice condition to say the least!
So! We have to decide if Sheila was the killer due to her mental illness, or that Bamber simply killed his family, including women and children, without any diagnosed mental illness just for the dosh!
One things for sure, if JB was the killer the Judge was right about the son of a gun being indeed evil almost beyond belief! Could someone be that evil without being nuts, April?
Absolutely they could! Do you recall hearing about Hindley and Brady suffering unspecified mental conditions? What JB had been 'suffering' had built up over many years. Sibling rivalry, of itself, isn't unusual and most siblings eventually come to an understanding. However, JB and Sheila weren't true siblings, although I have no evidence of adopted siblings being greater rivals than biological siblings, and it may be that this played a part in his growing sense of entitlement. I magine, from where he was, he saw Sheila getting the lion's share of everything. She was allowed to change schools when she wasn't happy. He had to stay at Greshams. Sheila flipped from one 'glamorous' job to the next, always funded by the bank of June and Nevill. Sheila lived in London. Never mind that he was compensated with trips to Australia, ultimately, his life was mapped out. He was to work on the farm, something he clearly wasn't cut out for, partly because it didn't pay him enough to lead the life he wanted.
I guess thing became worse when Sheila married a man who couldn't support her, and the twins she delivered, and Nevill and June were spending more and more on her. When it became obvious that Sheila would be unlikely to work again, he must have seen his inheritance diminishing rapidly. Then there was the cost of her health care. Soon there would be the boys' education. He may be forgiven for believing he was working for nothing. He may be forgiven for believing he was working to keep Sheila and her boys. He may even be forgiven for feeling resentful. The sibling rivalry had turned into an overblown sense of entitlement. As he, himself said "I won't be sharing any of my inheritance with Sheila".
-
Absolutely they could! Do you recall hearing about Hindley and Brady suffering unspecified mental conditions? What JB had been 'suffering' had built up over many years. Sibling rivalry, of itself, isn't unusual and most siblings eventually come to an understanding. However, JB and Sheila weren't true siblings, although I have no evidence of adopted siblings being greater rivals than biological siblings, and it may be that this played a part in his growing sense of entitlement. I magine, from where he was, he saw Sheila getting the lion's share of everything. She was allowed to change schools when she wasn't happy. He had to stay at Greshams. Sheila flipped from one 'glamorous' job to the next, always funded by the bank of June and Nevill. Sheila lived in London. Never mind that he was compensated with trips to Australia, ultimately, his life was mapped out. He was to work on the farm, something he clearly wasn't cut out for, partly because it didn't pay him enough to lead the life he wanted.
I guess thing became worse when Sheila married a man who couldn't support her, and the twins she delivered, and Nevill and June were spending more and more on her. When it became obvious that Sheila would be unlikely to work again, he must have seen his inheritance diminishing rapidly. Then there was the cost of her health care. Soon there would be the boys' education. He may be forgiven for believing he was working for nothing. He may be forgiven for believing he was working to keep Sheila and her boys. He may even be forgiven for feeling resentful. The sibling rivalry had turned into an overblown sense of entitlement. As he, himself said "I won't be sharing any of my inheritance with Sheila".
Well that's one theory, one explanation, one diagnosis as it were, April!
So, a life time of jealousy coupled with extreme greed and selfishness and obviously no moral compass at all led to the murders?
-
Well that's one theory, one explanation, one diagnosis as it were, April!
So, a life time of jealousy coupled with extreme greed and selfishness and obviously no moral compass at all led to the murders?
Sounds eminently plausible to me, and certainly wouldn?t be the first time a family has been wiped out for personal gain.
-
Sounds eminently plausible to me, and certainly wouldn?t be the first time a family has been wiped out for personal gain.
Thank-you, and you're right! It certainly wouldn't. Nonetheless, I'd be very surprised if the Blog hasn't his fingers firmly in his ears, intoning "Lalala", along with blinkers over his eyes!
-
Thank-you, and you're right! It certainly wouldn't. Nonetheless, I'd be very surprised if the Blog hasn't his fingers firmly in his ears, intoning "Lalala", along with blinkers over his eyes!
Ha ha! Very good, April, very good! But yes, the Blog will have to dismiss your theory due to the Boyce evidence obviously!
I believe the General agrees with me now too, and has even applied to work in a factory which manufactures Aga cookers! 8(0(*
-
Sounds eminently plausible to me, and certainly wouldn?t be the first time a family has been wiped out for personal gain.
Oh its certainly plausible, Vertigo! But so is Sheila going crazy due to her mental illness, surely?
-
Ha ha! Very good, April, very good! But yes, the Blog will have to dismiss your theory due to the Boyce evidence obviously!
I believe the General agrees with me now too, and has even applied to work in a factory which manufactures Aga cookers! 8(0(*
Instead of hitching yourself to the wagon of someone whose previous theory has already been discounted, it might be more appropriate if you did the same, ie, learn about Aga's rather than taking Boyce's word for something you clearly have no knowledge of. I imagine hell will freeze over before the General supports your crackpot theory?
-
Oh its certainly plausible, Vertigo! But so is Sheila going crazy due to her mental illness, surely?
Did she have a history of extreme violence caused by her illness?
-
Did she have a history of extreme violence caused by her illness?
I dont think there was much violence to others, just objects!
But her behaviour certainly frightened people!
-
Did she have a history of extreme violence caused by her illness?
No is the answer to that! She would hit herself, maybe punishing herself, is as far as it went. Episodes are frightening to witness. Freddie Armani was scared for his life but she never attempted to touch him.
-
If the facts were so clean cut then JB would have no supporters nor a campaign team, April!
Its one of those cases as they say!
Nobody say's that.
As for the first bit - just about every case that has undecided elements attracts general idiots and consiprary knobheads. Nicola Bulley was drowned by someone now along with 14 other women.
-
Nobody say's that.
As for the first bit - just about every case that has undecided elements attracts general idiots and consiprary knobheads. Nicola Bulley was drowned by someone now along with 14 other women.
Like Madeleine was killed by her parents, hidden in a fridge and then driven to a disposal site by them 23 days later, all covered up by them and their friends and family, plus a few celebrity paedos and politicians. Like you say, general idiots and conspiracy knobheads.
-
Like Madeleine was killed by her parents, hidden in a fridge and then driven to a disposal site by them 23 days later, all covered up by them and their friends and family, plus a few celebrity paedos and politicians. Like you say, general idiots and conspiracy knobheads.
Not like that at all. And I don't think you're a knobhead.
-
Not like that at all. And I don't think you're a knobhead.
Aww, sweet.