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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on April 26, 2013, 04:53:52 PM
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At what time was the first telephone call made to police?
There appears to be some dubiety among members as to when the first telephone calls were made to police and who made them.
This thread affords everyone an opportunity to seek out this information and settle this question once and for all.
Below is the route which the police first responders had to take, a distance of 14Km.
(http://i.imgur.com/1v0vLLL.jpg)
541
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You're right there's no evidence the place was cleaned and they only disturbed the crime scene closing the window and the shutters. But it is untrue that the GNR took nearly an hour to arrive because they were tied up somewhere else. The GNR Lagos post was contacted by phone at 22h41 (or 43), first call registered, it's a fact. Officers on patrol arrived less than 20 minutes later.
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That's completely false Anne. The Ocean Club telephoned the police immediately they placed their missing child plan into operation around 10.15pm. If you read the GNR statements and in particular the one by the officer in charge that night you will find that they received several calls but were unable to send a patrol as the only one was already tied up with another call. The patrol got to Praia da Luz as fast as they could after being alerted and arrived at 11pm.
Amaral didn't even arrive until midnight so explain that too please??
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That's completely false Anne. The Ocean Club telephoned the police immediately they placed their missing child plan into operation around 10.15pm. If you read the GNR statements you will find that they received several calls but were unable to send a patrol as the only one was already tied up with another call. The patrol got to Praia da Luz as fast as they could after being alerted and arrived at 11pm.
Amaral didn't even arrive until midnight so explain that too please??
Sorry, Angelo, but I insist this is not true. Please consult in the PJfiles the register of phone calls received on that night by the GNR. The missing child plan is an OC intern operation that has nothing to do with the police. If there's a document from the GNR alleging they were busy and couldn't come, please send the link.
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
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That's completely false Anne. The Ocean Club telephoned the police immediately they placed their missing child plan into operation around 10.15pm. If you read the GNR statements and in particular the one by the officer in charge that night you will find that they received several calls but were unable to send a patrol as the only one was already tied up with another call. The patrol got to Praia da Luz as fast as they could after being alerted and arrived at 11pm.
Amaral didn't even arrive until midnight so explain that too please??
The call to GNR is registered at 22:41 and they arrived 10 minutes later. The PJ was not called until at least after 10min past midnightm when the GNR started to suspect that was not just a case of a wandering child.
(and no, I will not direct you to the files, you know were they are, move your fingers and get there)
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Luz really does have a problem with supporting her assertions with cites!
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Luz really does have a problem with supporting her assertions with cites!
But you are so good at supporting unsupported arguments, why should I differ?!
But my arguments always lead to documents accessible to all, I just don't always have the time (and sometimes the will) to put the links on.
But I'll try, in the future, dear Debuker 8(0(*
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First authorities called:
lets start with media reports http://www.mccannfiles.com/id121.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id121.html),
now official reports:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html), go over all those depositions and come back to talk to me.
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Luz really does have a problem with supporting her assertions with cites!
But you are so good at supporting unsupported arguments, why should I differ?!
But my arguments always lead to documents accessible to all, I just don't always have the time (and sometimes the will) to put the links on.
But I'll try, in the future, dear Debuker 8(0(*
You will find that I always provide cites.
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That's completely false Anne. The Ocean Club telephoned the police immediately they placed their missing child plan into operation around 10.15pm. If you read the GNR statements and in particular the one by the officer in charge that night you will find that they received several calls but were unable to send a patrol as the only one was already tied up with another call. The patrol got to Praia da Luz as fast as they could after being alerted and arrived at 11pm.
Amaral didn't even arrive until midnight so explain that too please??
Angelo, Amaral didn't arrive, at all. He never went near the apartment, till the McCann's had left Portugal. >@@(*&)
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
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That's completely false Anne. The Ocean Club telephoned the police immediately they placed their missing child plan into operation around 10.15pm. If you read the GNR statements and in particular the one by the officer in charge that night you will find that they received several calls but were unable to send a patrol as the only one was already tied up with another call. The patrol got to Praia da Luz as fast as they could after being alerted and arrived at 11pm.
Amaral didn't even arrive until midnight so explain that too please??
Angelo, Amaral didn't arrive, at all. He never went near the apartment, till the McCann's had left Portugal. >@@(*&)
Fantastic, Dr. Amaral has a double and I didn't know. Throughout the second half of May 2007 I saw someone that looked and talked just like Dr. Amaral in the OC.
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Ah ah ah! 8@??)( How cute!
and I'm the one that doesn't provide links. But you were probably in the man's bedroom to see that he remained in bed.
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Sorry, Angelo, but you got the bed wrong as well. GA didn't sleep a wink ! A little lost girl, nobody in Portugal, knowing that, goes to bed.
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Police were called at 10.40pm, the first officers arrived at 10.47pm and senior detectives from the Policia Judiciaria arrived at 1am.
The apartment was not cleared of searchers until 2am, when police said there were up to 50 people inside.
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Police were called at 10.40pm, the first officers arrived at 10.47pm and senior detectives from the Policia Judiciaria arrived at 1am.
The apartment was not cleared of searchers until 2am, when police said there were up to 50 people inside.
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Thank you to put order in this circus.
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Police were called at 10.40pm, the first officers arrived at 10.47pm and senior detectives from the Policia Judiciaria arrived at 1am.
The apartment was not cleared of searchers until 2am, when police said there were up to 50 people inside.
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GNR was called at 10:41, as Luz said, the officers were called 2 minutes later, they arrived around 11h (they were about 7 kms far from PDL, countryside little roads).
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So it has been established, with evidence, that the first call to the police that night was made at 10.41pm
Is that correct ?
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So it has been established, with evidence, that the first call to the police that night was made at 10.41pm
Is that correct ?
The call to the Ocean Club was between 9.30-10pm ...
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So it has been established, with evidence, that the first call to the police that night was made at 10.41pm
Is that correct ?
Yes, it's one of the rare facts ! Precious !
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So it has been established, with evidence, that the first call to the police that night was made at 10.41pm
Is that correct ?
The call to the Ocean Club was between 9.30-10pm ...
Call to the Ocean Club ?
The first phone call made to the police was at 10.41pm ... is that correct ?
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So it has been established, with evidence, that the first call to the police that night was made at 10.41pm
Is that correct ?
The call to the Ocean Club was between 9.30-10pm ...
Call to the Ocean Club ?
The first phone call made to the police was at 10.41pm ... is that correct ?
A receptionist at the Ocean Club took a call at between 930 and 10.00 that a little girl had gone missing from the Ocean Club.
The call was made from the Tapas Restaurant.
Ocean Club reception, I should say ...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
Hmmmmm!
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So it has been established, with evidence, that the first call to the police that night was made at 10.41pm
Is that correct ?
The call to the Ocean Club was between 9.30-10pm ...
Call to the Ocean Club ?
The first phone call made to the police was at 10.41pm ... is that correct ?
A receptionist at the Ocean Club took a call at between 930 and 10.00 that a little girl had gone missing from the Ocean Club.
The call was made from the Tapas Restaurant.
Ocean Club reception, I should say ...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
Hmmmmm!
Phone records prove that the Ocean Club receptionist was mistaken
No call was recieved until 10.41pm
As it happens, just about everything that is claimed to have happened that night, indicates that he was mistaken
How, for instance, could he have made a call to the police by 10.00pm when the alarm had not even been raised until 10 minutes later according to the Tapas group ?
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No call was recieved until 10.41pm
Evidence of that being what?
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No call was recieved until 10.41pm
Evidence of that being what?
The Ocean Club telephone records are available to view in the police files
All call made from reception are listed there
The first call made to the police that night was at 10.41pm
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No call was recieved until 10.41pm
Evidence of that being what?
The Ocean Club telephone records are available to view in the police files
All call made from reception are listed there
The first call made to the police that night was at 10.41pm
I was just looking at that.
I can't make head or tail of it.
Can you?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm
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This appears to be the link
Towards the foot of the page, highlighted in yellow: 2221:49 (seconds) ...
But that seems to be the time the call was made from the Ocean Club to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
The call from the Tapas Restaurant to the reception would obviously have been made earlier ...
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That's completely false Anne. The Ocean Club telephoned the police immediately they placed their missing child plan into operation around 10.15pm. If you read the GNR statements and in particular the one by the officer in charge that night you will find that they received several calls but were unable to send a patrol as the only one was already tied up with another call. The patrol got to Praia da Luz as fast as they could after being alerted and arrived at 11pm.
Amaral didn't even arrive until midnight so explain that too please??
Angelo, Amaral didn't arrive, at all. He never went near the apartment, till the McCann's had left Portugal. >@@(*&)
Fantastic, Dr. Amaral has a double and I didn't know. Throughout the second half of May 2007 I saw someone that looked and talked just like Dr. Amaral in the OC.
Course you did, Luz. You keep up with your lies, it makes you look such an idiot.
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This appears to be the link
Towards the foot of the page, highlighted in yellow: 2221:49 (seconds) ...
But that seems to be the time the call was made from the Ocean Club to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_3051.jpg
The call from the Tapas Restaurant to the reception would obviously have been made earlier ...
Yes, that is the telephone list of all calls made from the Ocean Club reception
The highlighted calls are the only ones made to the police that night
... the first call was made at 10.41pm ( not 10.21pm as you have stated above )
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Does anyone know if there is a record of the call made from the Tapas restaurant?
I've had a look; I can't find it.
I've found a statement of a manager who was on the premises at the critical time; but he doesn't appear to have been the one to make the call to reception.
I'm thinking, also, that it's possible more than one call was made to the GNR?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIAGO_BARREIROS.htm
That he became aware of the situation that occurred at the OC with respect to the disappearance of a child when he arrived at the Tapas around 22H00/22H30. He was immediately informed at arriving by work colleagues.
That after finding out what happened he immediately proceeded to join some searches next to the pool and the apartment zone around the resort. He stayed in the OC until around 01H30 when he left with his girlfriend.
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Does anyone know if there is a record of the call made from the Tapas restaurant?
I've had a look; I can't find it.
I've found a statement of a manager who was on the premises at the critical time; but he doesn't appear to have been the one to make the call to reception.
I'm thinking, also, that it's possible more than one call was made to the GNR?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIAGO_BARREIROS.htm
That he became aware of the situation that occurred at the OC with respect to the disappearance of a child when he arrived at the Tapas around 22H00/22H30. He was immediately informed at arriving by work colleagues.
That after finding out what happened he immediately proceeded to join some searches next to the pool and the apartment zone around the resort. He stayed in the OC until around 01H30 when he left with his girlfriend.
The Ocean Club phone records are 'hard evidence'
They 'prove' that the only calls made from reception to the police that night occured at 22.41pm and 22.52pm
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Does anyone know if there is a record of the call made from the Tapas restaurant?
I've had a look; I can't find it.
I've found a statement of a manager who was on the premises at the critical time; but he doesn't appear to have been the one to make the call to reception.
I'm thinking, also, that it's possible more than one call was made to the GNR?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIAGO_BARREIROS.htm
That he became aware of the situation that occurred at the OC with respect to the disappearance of a child when he arrived at the Tapas around 22H00/22H30. He was immediately informed at arriving by work colleagues.
That after finding out what happened he immediately proceeded to join some searches next to the pool and the apartment zone around the resort. He stayed in the OC until around 01H30 when he left with his girlfriend.
The Ocean Club phone records are 'hard evidence'
They 'prove' that the only calls made from reception to the police that night occured at 22.41pm and 22.52pm
I'm not disputing that you've quoted (actually, that I quoted) is accurate.
I'm questioning whether it's complete!
Was the call highlighted the only call made to the GNR?
Or was there an earlier call, then a hurry up call, the one highlighted?
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Does anyone know if there is a record of the call made from the Tapas restaurant?
I've had a look; I can't find it.
I've found a statement of a manager who was on the premises at the critical time; but he doesn't appear to have been the one to make the call to reception.
I'm thinking, also, that it's possible more than one call was made to the GNR?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIAGO_BARREIROS.htm
That he became aware of the situation that occurred at the OC with respect to the disappearance of a child when he arrived at the Tapas around 22H00/22H30. He was immediately informed at arriving by work colleagues.
That after finding out what happened he immediately proceeded to join some searches next to the pool and the apartment zone around the resort. He stayed in the OC until around 01H30 when he left with his girlfriend.
The Ocean Club phone records are 'hard evidence'
They 'prove' that the only calls made from reception to the police that night occured at 22.41pm and 22.52pm
I'm not disputing that you've quoted (actually, that I quoted) is accurate.
I'm questioning whether it's complete!
Was the call highlighted the only call made to the GNR?
Or was there an earlier call, then a hurry up call, the one highlighted?
There were two calls to the police that night
The first at 10.41pm
... and the 'hurry up' call was made 11 minutes later at 22.52pm ( the police were already on their way at that point, and arrived about 8 minutes later )
The suggestion that it took Portuguese police nearly an hour to respond to the first call should be relegated to the 'myth' section
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There were other calls to the police well before 10.40pm if I remember what I read in the statements including calls from England. It was a simple matter to place an emergency call to 112.
I will check my notes when I get back to my office,. I also think this subject is worthy of its own thread since there appears to be a dispute about the calls and the timings.
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Sorry, Angelo, but you got the bed wrong as well. GA didn't sleep a wink ! A little lost girl, nobody in Portugal, knowing that, goes to bed.
That rather depends on how you read his book, but why would he tell us that his wife pulled the daughter to herself to leave his place in the bed free if he was not going to use it?
Contei-lhe e instinitivamente colocou a mao no peito pequeno e quente de Ines, sem no entanto a puxar para junto de si de forma a deixar o meu lugar livre...
Your claim that nobody knowing that goes to bed is quite silly really. Most Portuguese people, even in PDL did go to bed. Why people make such wild exaggerated statements as that about nobody going to bed is quite beyond me.
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Mr Amaral most probably assumed she would turn up as many have done before after getting lost. He would have let his minions get on with it.
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Sorry, Angelo, but you got the bed wrong as well. GA didn't sleep a wink ! A little lost girl, nobody in Portugal, knowing that, goes to bed.
That rather depends on how you read his book, but why would he tell us that his wife pulled the daughter to herself to leave his place in the bed free if he was not going to use it?
Contei-lhe e instinitivamente colocou a mao no peito pequeno e quente de Ines, sem no entanto a puxar para junto de si de forma a deixar o meu lugar livre...
Your claim that nobody knowing that goes to bed is quite silly really. Most Portuguese people, even in PDL did go to bed. Why people make such wild exaggerated statements as that about nobody going to bed is quite beyond me.
Tut! Tut!
ANNOUNCEMENT OF A DISAPPEARANCE: THE FIRST SEVENTY-TWO HOURS
On this evening, May 3rd 2007, I decide to dine at the Carvi Brasserie, in the centre of Portimão, before going home. I have been living for a year in this town, where I lead the Department of Criminal Investigation of the police judiciaire. In 1982, when I was 23 and I had just taken up this career, I had already gone there. There, I had made the acquaintance of someone who was to become my friend, Manuel João. Former local official and sporty, a charismatic person. He always lent a hand to members of the police judiciaire who went to the town for the purposes of an investigation. As an elected local official, he originated the creation of a police judiciaire department in Portimão. Thus, that evening, while savouring fruits de mer, we discuss the problems of Portuguese society.
It is midnight when I receive the news about the disappearance of a little four-year-old English girl. The police officer on call was informed about it by the National Guard of The Republic (GNR) At the time of her disappearance, the little girl was supposed to have been sleeping in an apartment while her parents were dining a hundred metres away. An inspector is sent to the scene immediately to establish the initial facts. A forensic expert assigned to security of the premises will join him. All precautions are taken to preserve possible clues and elements of evidence. I demand to be informed very regularly and, before going home, I call on the police on duty to check that all urgent measures are underway. The head of the Guard has already alerted the police authorities at Faro airport and the control post set up on the Guadiana* bridge.
(*The river on the frontier between Portugal and Spain.)
THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED
The examination of the premises by the investigator and the representative of the forensic police just after the announcement of the disappearance turns out to be quite unproductive. A concise report, where their observations are written up, is accompanied by numerous photographs taken inside and outside apartment 5A - which don't give an account of, according to us, everything they could have observed. This error is explained by the absence of procedures in case of a child's disappearance, notably concerning the actions to be taken when examining the scene.
Lots of people were already in place; however, nobody appeared in the photos. We don't know, for example, how they were dressed. Such observations can turn out to be important later on. The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there.
That evening, on arriving home, I see Inès, my younger daughter, who is sleeping close to my wife, Sofia. In silence, in the dim light of the bedroom, I sit on the edge of the bed. Outside, far from her mother's warmth, a child of the same age is lost. Sofia wakes up and asks me what is happening. I tell her about Madeleine's disappearance and instinctively, she holds our daughter tightly in her arms and makes room for me.
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Does anyone know if there is a record of the call made from the Tapas restaurant?
I've had a look; I can't find it.
I've found a statement of a manager who was on the premises at the critical time; but he doesn't appear to have been the one to make the call to reception.
I'm thinking, also, that it's possible more than one call was made to the GNR?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIAGO_BARREIROS.htm
That he became aware of the situation that occurred at the OC with respect to the disappearance of a child when he arrived at the Tapas around 22H00/22H30. He was immediately informed at arriving by work colleagues.
That after finding out what happened he immediately proceeded to join some searches next to the pool and the apartment zone around the resort. He stayed in the OC until around 01H30 when he left with his girlfriend.
The Ocean Club phone records are 'hard evidence'
They 'prove' that the only calls made from reception to the police that night occured at 22.41pm and 22.52pm
I'm not disputing that you've quoted (actually, that I quoted) is accurate.
I'm questioning whether it's complete!
Was the call highlighted the only call made to the GNR?
Or was there an earlier call, then a hurry up call, the one highlighted?
There were two calls to the police that night
The first at 10.41pm
... and the 'hurry up' call was made 11 minutes later at 22.52pm ( the police were already on their way at that point, and arrived about 8 minutes later )
The suggestion that it took Portuguese police nearly an hour to respond to the first call should be relegated to the 'myth' section
it surely should. Very unfair.
At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. John Hill, the Mark Warner resort manager, came up to the veranda behind our apartment. I remember screaming at him to do something. ‘Where are the police?’ I yelled at him. He tried to reassure me they’d be with us soon but I could tell that he, too, was finding the waiting difficult. Minutes felt like hours.
"Madeleine"
After thoroughly searching the apartment, his wife, scared and shocked, went to the restaurant to inform him of the disappearance. Immediately, the group took themselves around the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, who, at the same time, contacted the authorities
(GMC 4 May statement)
Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted.... At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
Mrs Fenn
If you want something done right, do it yourself ! What are cell phones made for ?
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There were other calls to the police well before 10.40pm if I remember what I read in the statements including calls from England. It was a simple matter to place an emergency call to 112.
I will check my notes when I get back to my office,. I also think this subject is worthy of its own thread since there appears to be a dispute about the calls and the timings.
I look forward to seeing that evidence John.
Ferryman, wondering what the nonsense you posted earlier was about, the main receptionist ringing police between 9.30 and 10 pm, immediately after he was caled by the Tapas Bar receptionist. Why would anyone ring him before the alarm was raised, which was at least 10pm or as late as 10.20 if Gerry Mccanns statement is correct.
The recollection of 9.30-10pm is obviously wrong here, isnt it.
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There were other calls to the police well before 10.40pm if I remember what I read in the statements including calls from England. It was a simple matter to place an emergency call to 112.
I will check my notes when I get back to my office,. I also think this subject is worthy of its own thread since there appears to be a dispute about the calls and the timings.
I look forward to seeing that evidence John.
So do I.
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There were other calls to the police well before 10.40pm if I remember what I read in the statements including calls from England. It was a simple matter to place an emergency call to 112.
I will check my notes when I get back to my office,. I also think this subject is worthy of its own thread since there appears to be a dispute about the calls and the timings.
I look forward to seeing that evidence John.
So do I.
(GMC 4 May statement)
Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted.... At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
Mrs Fenn
If you want something done right, do it yourself ! What are cell phones made for ?
Are you 100% sure about that statement Anne, re Mrs Fenn?
Gerald Patrick McCann
Date: 2007/05/04
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
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The evidence of what occurred with respect to phoning the police that night is all in the statements.
Just before I dig them all out and put a time-line together does anyone want to retract their comments? I would be interested to know who really believes that a nearly 4-year-old child goes missing from her bedroom in a foreign holiday apartment at 10pm and no-one bothers their ar.. to telephone the police until 10.41pm. Are you for real?
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The evidence of what occurred with respect to phoning the police that night is all in the statements.
Just before I dig them all out and put a time-line together does anyone want to retract their comments? I would be interested to know who really believes that a nearly 4-year-old child goes missing from her bedroom in a foreign holiday apartment at 10pm and no-one bothers their ar.. to telephone the police until 10.41pm. Are you for real?
lets see it then
I retract nothing as the only evidence I have seen is the official call logs from the ocean ckub and other reports from police detailing the time of the first call,happy to be corrected though
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Apparently you haven't bothered to read all the statements then Redblossom. You really have to start looking at all the evidence.
Nobody has answered my question yet. Your child is abducted in a foreign holiday resort, do you wait 40 minutes before phoning the police?
Maybe nobody wanted to trouble the poor dears.
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Apparently you haven't bothered to read all the statements then Redblossom. You really have to start looking at all the evidence.
Nobody has answered my question yet. Your child is abducted in a foreign holiday resort, do you wait 40 minutes before phoning the police?
Maybe nobody wanted to trouble the poor dears.
Of course I havent read every page of the files, who has? Very few I guess. Thats the whole point of this issue, did the Mccanns call police immediately or was there a delay. And if so why was there one. So once I read your evidence I guess I will be educated.
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The evidence of what occurred with respect to phoning the police that night is all in the statements.
Just before I dig them all out and put a time-line together does anyone want to retract their comments? I would be interested to know who really believes that a nearly 4-year-old child goes missing from her bedroom in a foreign holiday apartment at 10pm and no-one bothers their ar.. to telephone the police until 10.41pm. Are you for real?
Before you 'dig out' witness statements, be aware that they cannot be deemed as reliable as documented factual information in the form of the recorded phone records
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Apparently you haven't bothered to read all the statements then Redblossom. You really have to start looking at all the evidence.
Nobody has answered my question yet. Your child is abducted in a foreign holiday resort, do you wait 40 minutes before phoning the police?
Maybe nobody wanted to trouble the poor dears.
you may look for 40 minutes first and when all possibilities have gone, you phone the police.
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The evidence of what occurred with respect to phoning the police that night is all in the statements.
Just before I dig them all out and put a time-line together does anyone want to retract their comments? I would be interested to know who really believes that a nearly 4-year-old child goes missing from her bedroom in a foreign holiday apartment at 10pm and no-one bothers their ar.. to telephone the police until 10.41pm. Are you for real?
Before you 'dig out' witness statements, be aware that they cannot be deemed as reliable as documented factual information in the form of the recorded phone records
Quite, as the one touted by ferryman today, that the receptionist called police straight away about a missing child when informed between 9.30 and 10.00, like the mccanns raised the alarm between 9.30 and 10.00 LOL
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The evidence of what occurred with respect to phoning the police that night is all in the statements.
Just before I dig them all out and put a time-line together does anyone want to retract their comments? I would be interested to know who really believes that a nearly 4-year-old child goes missing from her bedroom in a foreign holiday apartment at 10pm and no-one bothers their ar.. to telephone the police until 10.41pm. Are you for real?
Before you 'dig out' witness statements, be aware that they cannot be deemed as reliable as documented factual information in the form of the recorded phone records
just phone statements or any statements?
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The evidence of what occurred with respect to phoning the police that night is all in the statements.
Just before I dig them all out and put a time-line together does anyone want to retract their comments? I would be interested to know who really believes that a nearly 4-year-old child goes missing from her bedroom in a foreign holiday apartment at 10pm and no-one bothers their ar.. to telephone the police until 10.41pm. Are you for real?
Before you 'dig out' witness statements, be aware that they cannot be deemed as reliable as documented factual information in the form of the recorded phone records
just phone statements or any statements?
John can produce as many witnesses as he likes who say the police were phoned from reception before 10.41pm ... the fact is though, if they had, then the calls would have shown up on the recorded telephone data
The only phone calls made from the Ocean Club reception to the police that night were at 10.41pm and 10.52pm
... and that is a 'hard evidence' supported fact
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look forward to reading proof about police being called very early on that night and also by people in the uk, people in the uk ringing the gnr/pj? When? was it philomena maccann who said the gnr took HOURS to arrive? When it was ten or fifteen minutes? How did she know how long they were, obviously someone LIED to her, for some reason
?>)()<
nite nite dont let the bed bugs bite
Philomena McCann: "It was hours before the local police turned up and we're talking two bobbies that totally downplayed the incident and said that Maddie had maybe just wandered off, and that... but what 3-year-old would wander off for hours on their own? It took the CID 5 hours before they responded to come and even then it was, kind of, shrug of the shoulders. There's been no feedback from the Portuguese police to Gerry. The stress levels have been through the roof because of this, it's just been shocking."
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Ever hear of a mobile telehone?
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
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That time frame is impossible John, should be in room 101 like yesterday
catch up tomorrow
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Ever hear of a mobile telehone?
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
You are presuming that the receptionist used his mobile to phone the police, rather than the Ocean Club reception phone in front of him, as a way of excusing why the call did not show up on phone records ?
That really is straw grasping John !
By the way, you do realise that if you are taking this witness's word as gospel, that you must accept that Gerry McCann was not at the Tapas bar when Mr Smith made his sighting ?
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Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club Amy Tierney confirmed that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to35 minutes to arrive.
That would place the call to the police around 10.30pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
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Manager Emma Louise Knight stated that at about 22.17 she received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing her that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'. She adds that the hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised and I can confirm that he called the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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Just as a casual aside - is it important?
The only relevance is because luz said they cleaned the apartment before the GNR arrived.
It will be Monday before she confirms that
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Head of the Baby Club and Mini Club Amy Tierney confirmed that the girl's father went to the reception to call the police as soon as her disappearance was noticed and that twenty minutes had passed. The GNR took 30 to35 minutes to arrive.
That would place the call to the police around 10.30pm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
Hearsay ... of no evidential value at all
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Manager Emma Louise Knight stated that at about 22.17 she received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing her that the girl had gone missing.
So we have a fairly accurate, documented, record putting Kate's alert at least close to 2200 ...
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Manager Emma Louise Knight stated that at about 22.17 she received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing her that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'. She adds that the hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised and I can confirm that he called the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Hearsay again, and of no evidential value
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Manager Emma Louise Knight stated that at about 22.17 she received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing her that the girl had gone missing.
So we have a fairly accurate, documented, record putting Kate's alert at least close to 2200 ...
if so makes a mockery of your trying to make out police were called from 9.30 to 10 haha
8((()*/
Tara
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Sorry, Angelo, but you got the bed wrong as well. GA didn't sleep a wink ! A little lost girl, nobody in Portugal, knowing that, goes to bed.
He stayed in bed - whether he slept a wink or not does not matter a jot
He had made up his mind and did precisely NOTHING
That's unprofessional at best - callous and cruel at worst
Regardless of the nationality of the girl
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Sorry, Angelo, but you got the bed wrong as well. GA didn't sleep a wink ! A little lost girl, nobody in Portugal, knowing that, goes to bed.
He stayed in bed - whether he slept a wink or not does not matter a jot
He had made up his mind and did precisely NOTHING
That's unprofessional at best - callous and cruel at worst
Regardless of the nationality of the girl
hmm ... the Chief of police should have been scouring scrub land on his hands and knees should he ? ... whilst the missing child's father was in the kip ( yes ! ... Gerry McCann went to sleep that night too ... as confirmed by Kate in her book )
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And of course we get to the crux of the matter when we find out that Matthew asked reception to phone the police at...wait for it...just after 10.05pm!!
all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know, at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm, and everybody was just running around like sort of headless chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I mean, I don't know why I said that but I think I'd just read too many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we're just going to find her and she's going to be there, but, you know, she's like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn't really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Stamp 00.48.23 > 00.51.10
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Soooooooooooo, the question arises now...why didn't they or did they?? 8(0(*
Now we get to the truth just as I thought.
"Quite quick then''
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Stamp 00.51.10 > 00.55.19
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And of course we get to the crux of the matter when we find out that Matthew asked reception to phone the police at...wait for it...just after 10.05pm!!
all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know, at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm, and everybody was just running around like sort of headless chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I mean, I don't know why I said that but I think I'd just read too many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we're just going to find her and she's going to be there, but, you know, she's like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn't really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
John, whether Matthew Oldfield asked reception to phone the police or not ( and the receptionist makes no mention of the request in the witness statement you brought to us ) the fact is ... no call was made until 20.41pm that night
That is a 'fact' ... it is there in the phone records !
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Just as I thought the Portuguese receptionist was shit scared to call out the GNR in case it was a wild goose chase. Bloody typical!!
They wasted 30 precious minutes!
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Just as I thought the Portuguese receptionist was shit scared to call out the GNR in case it was a wild goose chase. Bloody typical!!
They wasted 30 precious minutes!
That is a possibility
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Just as I thought the Portuguese receptionist was shit scared to call out the GNR in case it was a wild goose chase. Bloody typical!!
They wasted 30 precious minutes!
Great work on the statement cites John.
Too many people never bother to put the effort into wading through them as you have. I am going to have a look at that receptionists statement again because I agree that there is an issue here which Ocean Club and Manager John Hill may just have to address. Was this receptionist negligent?
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Just as I thought the Portuguese receptionist was shit scared to call out the GNR in case it was a wild goose chase. Bloody typical!!
They wasted 30 precious minutes!
Great work on the statement cites John.
Too many people never bother to put the effort into wading through them as you have. I am going to have a look at that receptionists statement again because I agree that there is an issue here which Ocean Club and Manager John Hill may just have to address. Was this receptionist negligent?
Here's a few for starters, Angelo.
Date: 2007/05/09
Witness Statement
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
Reads, signs, ratifies.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
Emma Louise KNIGHT
Hotel Manager
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Amy Tierney
The witness remembers that upon entering the bedroom at the time of the disappearance, she saw that the bed that the two babies were sleeping (reparou que a cama que os dois bebes encontravam-se a dormir) and she saw that the bedclothes of the bed near the window were rumpled as if someone had been sitting there, that the bedclothes of Madeleine's bed had been pushed back and that on top of the bed was a small child's blanket and a cuddly toy.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/AMY-ELLEN-TIERNEY.htm
JOHN ELLIOT HILL
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
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And the inspector Gonçalo Amaral didn't arrive at all !
Sorry Anne and DCI. I got that wrong. I should have said the PJ arrived at around midnight. Amaral stayed in bed.
Sorry, Angelo, but you got the bed wrong as well. GA didn't sleep a wink ! A little lost girl, nobody in Portugal, knowing that, goes to bed.
That rather depends on how you read his book, but why would he tell us that his wife pulled the daughter to herself to leave his place in the bed free if he was not going to use it?
Contei-lhe e instinitivamente colocou a mao no peito pequeno e quente de Ines, sem no entanto a puxar para junto de si de forma a deixar o meu lugar livre...
Your claim that nobody knowing that goes to bed is quite silly really. Most Portuguese people, even in PDL did go to bed. Why people make such wild exaggerated statements as that about nobody going to bed is quite beyond me.
Instead of treating "silly" anyone you feel like treating so, read ! read honestly ! read without cutting phrases in the middle !
...colocou a mão no peito pequeno e quente de Inês, sem no entanto a puxar para junto de si de forma a deixar o meu lugar livre. A minha mulher conhece-me bem e sabe que não me iria deitar.
You're dangerous, Gilet, you try to make people say exactly the contrary of what they said. What for ? This is how "myths" (a beautiful word for ridiculous lies) are born.
I would appreciate your apologizing.
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Many thanks for posting those extracts DCI. 8((()*/
The two members who asserted the following >
I. It didn't take the GNR nearly an hour to respond to the first alert.
II. The GNR weren't dealing with another call when alerted.
I will accept that apology now Anne and Ica??
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For the sake of new readers let's list the facts.
10.05pm» Matthew Oldfield spoke with Gerry McCann immediately after checking the apartment shortly after 10pm and went immediately to reception where he asked the receptionist to phone the police for help. The receptionist was dismissive of his plea and suggested a local search of the grounds first.
10.15pm» Appears to have been a discussion between restaurant manager Vitor Santos and main receptionist Helder Luis as to why the GNR were taking so long to arrive and commented that Club Manager John Hill was agitated at the delay.
10.30pm» John Hill describes arriving at the resort just after 10.30pm and asks main receptionist to call GNR again.
What I would like to know is why the first telephone call listed on the telephone schedule is only recorded at 10.41pm?
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It's easy to cherry pick from statements to build a theory of what happened and when based on prople's memories, fact is the timeline of when the alarm was raised varies from 9.30 to near 10.30. To take Matthew Oldfield's time of 10.05 as defacto as the time when he asked for police to be called, is stretching it a bit IMO as the check happened at 10pm, the flat was searched, Kate ran back to the tapas bar, everyone running up to check, Matthew checking his own child, having a think about what to do with all the chaos, everyone in a panic, and setting off on his search, and on the way stopping at the reception, all within five minutes?
None of the Tapas group said the check was before 10pm. In fact according to Gerry it was at 10.03***
My point being, no one can really pinpoint anything with any accuracy. It would be better if the call records of the person who said he called police *several* times to be found.
----
***
Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, having entered through the back door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her taking so long, and, at the moment the deponent prepared to get up and to check why she was taking so long, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the entire house.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
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It's easy to cherry pick from statements to build a theory of what happened
You have been doing it for 6 years now, yet moan when someone else does it.
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The truth lies somewhere within the above posts by Angelo and Redblossom. We know for sure that the check by Kate was done at10pm give or take a few minutes, add a few minutes to this for Madeleine's disappearance to be discovered and to run back to the tapas bar. A further few minutes for a cursory search to have been carried out and to get to reception and that leaves the time around 10.15pm.
This I would suggest was when the first request to the receptionist was made to telephone the police. Question is, why didn't he do it?
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They have always said they asked reception to do it because none of them could speak Portuguese.
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Many thanks for posting those extracts DCI. 8((()*/
The two members who asserted the following >
I. It didn't take the GNR nearly an hour to respond to the first alert.
II. The GNR weren't dealing with another call when alerted.
I will accept that apology now Anne and Ica??
Angelo
It does not matter how many people say they assumed the police had been called, or even how many people say they directly asked reception to call the police ... the fact remains that the police were NOT called from the Ocean Club reception until 10.41pm
It's there in the phone records
It is a myth that the police took an hour to respond to the first call
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We now know that the GNR patrol was dealing with another call at Odiaxere when they were first alerted to the missing child. A call they, by their own admission, didn't immediately take too seriously.
Odiaxere is between 13 and 14 km away from the Ocean Club resort at Praia da Luz and the time for them to travel there would be about 20 minutes always assuming they left the first call immediately. Since we know their time of arrival at Ocean club to be confirmed as 11pm we can then deduce therefore that the very earliest they could have started out from Odiaxere was not before 11.40pm.
Given the delay between the telephone call and the radio message being sent it also doesn't take too much to work out that the police were not responding to the 11.41 call as Icabodcrane and Anne claim but were responding to an earlier one.
Icabodcrane. Have you seen the mobile telephone records for everyone who telephone the police?
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We now know that the GNR patrol was dealing with another call at Odiaxere when they were first alerted to the missing child. A call they, by their own admission, didn't immediately take too seriously.
Odiaxere is between 13 and 14 km away from the Ocean Club resort at Praia da Luz and the time for them to travel there would be about 20 minutes always assuming they left the first call immediately. Since we know their time of arrival at Ocean club to be confirmed as 11pm we can then deduce therefore that the very earliest they could have started out from Odiaxere was not before 11.40pm.
Which exactly corresponds to the phone records at the Ocean Club
First phone call to the police from reception at 22.41pm
Police, who are twenty minutes away, respond immediately, and arrive at approx 11pm
Can we add the claim that the police took an hour to respond to the myth section now ?
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We now know that the GNR patrol was dealing with another call at Odiaxere when they were first alerted to the missing child. A call they, by their own admission, didn't immediately take too seriously.
Odiaxere is between 13 and 14 km away from the Ocean Club resort at Praia da Luz and the time for them to travel there would be about 20 minutes always assuming they left the first call immediately. Since we know their time of arrival at Ocean club to be confirmed as 11pm we can then deduce therefore that the very earliest they could have started out from Odiaxere was not before 11.40pm.
Which exactly corresponds to the phone records at the Ocean Club
First phone call to the police from reception at 22.41pm
Police, who are twenty minutes away, respond immediately, and arrive at approx 11pm
Can we add the claim that the police took an hour to respond to the myth section now ?
They didn't respond immediately. Which part of they were attending another call don't you understand Ica??
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Can I remind you of the Accommodation Manager's statement...
He had no reason to lie, had he?
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
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So by my reckoning the police had at least 50 minutes to respond.
I thus agree, it is a myth that the police took an hour to arrive at the Ocean Club as they took 50 minutes.
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Could I have a reply please Icabodcrane?
Can I remind you of the Accommodation Manager's statement...
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet.
A reply to what John ... whether or not I have seen the mobile phone records of people who were there that night ?
Well of course I havn't ... and neither have you
Nor can you produce a witness statement from anyone even claiming to have contacted the police using a mobile phone
I am going by evidence alone
The evidence ( indisputable and hard evidence ) 'proves' that no call was made from the Ocean Club reception to police until 22.41pm
As you, yourself pointed out, when that call was made the police were 20 minutes away ... 20 minutes later they arrived in response to that first call
Do you dispute any of the above, with evidence to support it ( not assumptions or witness 'hearsay' ... but actual evidence ? )
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Could I have a reply please Icabodcrane?
Can I remind you of the Accommodation managers statement...
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
Well that can't be right either. If the GNR took 20 minutes to arrive, the call to police must have been made at least between 9.40 and 9.50 if not earlier if many calls were made. See what I mean? ETA, IF the police left immediately
How could John Hill have been agitated between 10 and 10.15 when according to him the first he heard was near 10.30
The timings dont add up
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found.
Answer:
Because John Hill assumed the police would be in the town
whereas they were 14 km away dealing with another call.
John 8(0(*
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If you read the John Hill document you will note that it is written in part in the third person, namely...
With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007.
Inspector Carlos Dordonnat never did his homework properly and missed the accommodation managers statement. One wonders what else has been missed? @)(++(*
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Can I remind you of the Accommodation Manager's statement...
He had no reason to lie, had he?
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
John, this witness is reporting what someone else told him they had done ... it is hearsay, and of no evidential value
Why are you so determined to believe the police took too long to respond to the first call, when all evidence ( 'hard' evidence ) proves they did not ?
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John why have you amended my times in my previous post? The post makes no sense now. If by 10-10.15 Vitor Manuel da Santos said he was called by Helda from reception and said John Hill was getting agitated because police hadnt arrived, after been called several times, it must mean police were called at least 9.40 if it took them 20 minutes to get there???? Or earlier if they didnt respond immediately. Which makes no sense either if the alarm was raised after 10pm
>@@(*&)
Also I dont think it is right that anyones post should be altered, moderated yes, but not altered in meaning, at least not saying why
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If you read the John Hill document you will note that it is written in part in the third person, namely...
With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007.
Inspector Carlos Dordonnat never did his homework properly and missed the accommodation managers statement. One wonders what else has been missed? @)(++(*
John Hill didnt dispute it.
No more was said. Signs statement together with the interpreter.
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John, this witness is reporting what someone else told him they had done ... it is hearsay, and of no evidential value
Why are you so determined to believe the police took too long to respond to the first call, when all evidence ( 'hard' evidence ) proves they did not ?
What hard evidence are you referring to icabodcrane?
So suddenly the Accommodation Manager is an unreliable witness because you basically don't like what he has to say in his statement?
I have no doubt whatsoever that the police were telephoned shortly after the discovery that Madeleine had gone missing and most likely from a mobile telephone. The telephone call recorded as being made from Reception at 10.41pm was much later and a follow up call as a result of Gerry and Matthew pressurising John Hill to phone the GNR again.
The report of this call was passed to the GNR patrol who were already on their way arriving some 15 minutes later so you see the call to the GNR at 10.41 was not the first call otherwise the police would not have been able to travel the distance they did in time to be at the resort by 11pm.
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John, this witness is reporting what someone else told him they had done ... it is hearsay, and of no evidential value
Why are you so determined to believe the police took too long to respond to the first call, when all evidence ( 'hard' evidence ) proves they did not ?
What hard evidence are you referring to icabodcrane?
So suddenly the Accommodation Manager is an unreliable witness because you basically don't like what he has to say in his statement?
The 'hard evidence' is the phone record from the Ocean Club reception
Witnesses, like the accommodation manager are not 'unreliable' ... they are irrelevent ! in this regard, in as much as what they have to say is 'hearsay' ( they cannot confirm what someone else actually did ... only what they were told someone else did )
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John, this witness is reporting what someone else told him they had done ... it is hearsay, and of no evidential value
Why are you so determined to believe the police took too long to respond to the first call, when all evidence ( 'hard' evidence ) proves they did not ?
I have no doubt whatsoever that the police were telephoned shortly after the discovery that Madeleine had gone missing and most likely from a mobile telephone.
Where is your evidence ?
How can you have 'no doubt whatsoever' when all you are presenting is a theory ... an 'assumption' ... that is based on nothing more than hearsay
Actually, the 'mobile phone' part of your theory isn't even based on that ... it is purely imagined on your part ( there is not a single witness who claims to have phoned the police on a mobile, or to have seen anyone else do so )
I am baffled as to why you persist with the accusation that the police took 50 minutes to arrive after the first phone call when you have no evidence of any substance to support it ( whilst continuing to ignore the evidence that proves the contrary )
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What hard evidence are you referring to icabodcrane?
So suddenly the Accommodation Manager is an unreliable witness because you basically don't like what he has to say in his statement?
The 'hard evidence' is the phone record from the Ocean Club reception
Witnesses, like the accommodation manager are not 'unreliable' ... they are irrelevent ! in this regard, in as much as what they have to say is 'hearsay' ( they cannot confirm what someone else actually did ... only what they were told someone else did )
Sorry icabodcrane, all that means is that there was a telephone call made from the land-line to the police at 10.41pm. It does not prove it was the first call.
A witness who was a Manager irrelevant? Now you are just being silly.
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet.
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John why have you amended my times in my previous post? The post makes no sense now. If by 10-10.15 Vitor Manuel da Santos said he was called by Helda from reception and said John Hill was getting agitated because police hadnt arrived, after been called several times, it must mean police were called at least 9.40 if it took them 20 minutes to get there???? Or earlier if they didnt respond immediately. Which makes no sense either if the alarm was raised after 10pm
>@@(*&)
Also I dont think it is right that anyones post should be altered, moderated yes, but not altered in meaning, at least not saying why
I will change them back as I see what you are getting at but you have effectively destroyed your own argument because John Hill would have assumed that the GNR patrol would have been around the town whereas we now know that they were 14Km away dealing with another call. By their own account they were not in any hurry to attend the Ocean club and it was only because of the further radio call to them after 10.41pm that they got their finger out and put the foot down. (Apologies to anyone who hasn't got English as their first language for the idioms.)
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What hard evidence are you referring to icabodcrane?
So suddenly the Accommodation Manager is an unreliable witness because you basically don't like what he has to say in his statement?
The 'hard evidence' is the phone record from the Ocean Club reception
Witnesses, like the accommodation manager are not 'unreliable' ... they are irrelevent ! in this regard, in as much as what they have to say is 'hearsay' ( they cannot confirm what someone else actually did ... only what they were told someone else did )
Sorry icabodcrane, all that means is that there was a telephone call made from the land-line to the police at 10.41pm. It does not prove it was the first call.
A witness who was a Manager irrelevant? Now you are just being silly.
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet.
What the Accomodation manager has to say about contacting the police is 'irrelevent' ... heH did not contact the police ... and when he relates that someone else told him they had done so, it is mere hearsay ( and of no evidential value )
I can provide not just evidence, but documented 'proof' that the first phone call to the police from the Ocean Club reception that night was at 22.41pm
What evidence, or proof, can you provide to support your claim that an earlier call was made on a mobile phone ?
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I can provide not just evidence, but documented 'proof' that the first phone call to the police from the Ocean Club reception that night was at 22.41pm
How are you going to do that?
If the journey to Praia da Luz took 20 mins and they were already in the middle of dealing with another call they would not have been able to get to Ocean Club by 11pm had they only found out about the call at about 10.45pm.
Work it out for yourself for heavens sake.
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I can provide not just evidence, but documented 'proof' that the first phone call to the police from the Ocean Club reception that night was at 22.41pm
How are you going to do that?
If the journey to Praia da Luz took 20 mins and they were already in the middle of dealing with another call they would not have been able to get to Ocean Club by 11pm had they only found out about the call at about 10.45pm.
Work it out for yourself for heavens sake.
All sounds very logical to me mate. There were many mobile telephones mentioned in the police files but they had no reason to provide itemised lists for staff members.
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Well John, you have got me confused, but anyway, if it is not proved that the Pj were called at 10 pm-10.15 pm or earlier as some of those statements suggest, which is a bit ridiculous that they could have been, if Gerry Mccann says Kate didnt come to the tapas bar until 10.13, it cant be taken as true
Whats with all the minutes of the hour being recorded anyway? Gerry checked at 9.04, Kate at 10.03... Did he have a speaking clock in his head?
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All this evidence that the police were contacted well before 10.41pm is well and truly mounting up from several sources. The tapas waiter, Ricardo Oliveira, who served the group on the fateful night also remembers Kate's scream from the balcony just minutes after 10pm.
After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5 A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so) called the reception asking them to inform the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
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All this evidence that the police were contacted well before 10.41pm is well and truly mounting up from several sources. The tapas waiter, Ricardo Oliveira, who served the group on the fateful night also remembers Kate's scream from the balcony just minutes after 10pm.
After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5 A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so) called the reception asking them to inform the police.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
There is not a single witness who claims to have phoned the police on their mobile that night
Why do you insist that one of them must have ?
You are making an unsubstanciated 'guess' ... nothing more
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It is a bit of a dogs dinner isnt it
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It is a bit of a dogs dinner isnt it
coconut ice cream perchance?
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It is a bit of a dogs dinner isnt it
The only 'evidence' to support the claim that the police were contacted before the first call was logged at 22'41pm, is that people were running around assuming that they had been called ... but none of them having done so themselves
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It is a bit of a dogs dinner isnt it
The only 'evidence' to support the claim that the police were contacted before the first call was logged at 22'41pm, is that people were running around assuming that they had been called ... but none of them having done so themselves
That is not true icabodcrane so please stop creating myths. I have already pointed out to you that the police had to have been contacted well before 10.40pm in order to have arrived by 11pm. This in itself is evidence and evidence by the Portuguese police so please stop posting that there is no evidence of an earlier call.
Evidence comes from many sources both direct and indirect, it is the job of an investigator to interpolate that evidence and fit it together to create a full picture. Harping on about a telephone call at 11.41pm is only evidence of a telephone call. It is not evidence of it being the first, the last, the 5th, 6th, or 7th that was made to police that night.
To be absolutely honest, it is bloody stupid to suggest that it took 40 minutes for anyone to call the police when a child had disappeared in such circumstances. If it had been my child I would have telephoned them within 10 to 15 minutes of the discovery having made a cursory search of the immediate area.
I will also add that it is very clear that the telephone records of who telephoned who that night are far from complete.
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It is a bit of a dogs dinner isnt it
The only 'evidence' to support the claim that the police were contacted before the first call was logged at 22'41pm, is that people were running around assuming that they had been called ... but none of them having done so themselves
That is not true icabodcrane so please stop creating myths. I have already pointed out to you that the police had to have been contacted well before 10.40pm in order to have arrived by 11pm. This in itself is evidence and evidence by the Portuguese police so please stop posting that there is no evidence of an earlier call.
Evidence comes from many sources both direct and indirect, it is the job of an investigator to interpolate that evidence and fit it together to create a full picture. Harping on about a telephone call at 11.41pm is only evidence of a telephone call. It is not evidence of it being the first, the last, the 5th, 6th, or 7th that was made to police that night.
To be absolutely honest, it is bloody stupid to suggest that it took 40 minutes for anyone to call the police when a child had disappeared in such circumstances. If it had been my child I would have telephoned them within 10 to 15 minutes of the discovery having made a cursory search of the immediate area.
The police were a twenty minute driving distance away when they recieved the first call, at 22.41pm, and arrived approx twenty minutes later in response
It is you who are creating a myth John ( and for the life of me, I can't think why )
There is no evidence that someone rang the police earlier on a mobile phone ... none at all
I maintain that it is a myth that the police took 50 minutes to respond to the first ( imaginery ) call
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So lets see, call commences at 10.41pm.
Add a few minutes for the call itself.
Add another few minutes to get to the radio.
Call the officers on the radio.
Mobile unit finishes up what they were already doing.
What time is that now? 10.51pm or later?
So tell me, how did they get from Odiáxere to Praia da Luz in 10 minutes? Tardis?
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So lets see, call commences at 10.41pm.
Add a few minutes for the call itself.
Add another few minutes to get to the radio.
Call the officers on the radio.
Mobile unit finishes up what they were already doing.
What time is that now? 10.51pm or later?
So tell me, how did they get from Odiáxere to Praia da Luz in 10 minutes? Tardis?
Remind me, what time was the second call from Reception recorded?
10 minutes for an emergency call to be relayed to the nearest police car ?
pfft
Why are you so determined to malign the police on this John ... when you have no evidence to support your accusations ?
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So according to the Ocean Club telephone records the first call made from their main line at reception was made at 10.41pm with a second call made at 10.52pm with the caller being on the phone for about a minute each time.
The Club Manager, John Hill, was contacted as a priority early on. If he instructed his staff to call the police almost immediately why did it not happen until 10.41?
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So according to the Ocean Club telephone records the first call made from their main line at reception was made at 10.41pm with a second call made at 10.52pm with the caller being on the phone for about a minute each time.
The Club Manager, John Hill, was contacted as a priority early on. If he instructed his staff to call the police almost immediately why did it not happen until 10.41?
That's a fair question
... because, for whatever reason, it did not happen until 10.41pm
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redblossom
have you ever been to Praia da Luz?
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Please don't hijack this thread with your late night bickering
John, I, and others are having a serious and civilized debate here
thanks
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Please don't hijack this thread with your late night bickering
John, I, and others are having a serious and civilized debate here
thanks
Removed *bickering replies* And original that prompted them, goodnight
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Just out of interest here is the route which the GNR police first responders had to make to get to the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, a distance of about 14 Km.
(http://i.imgur.com/2qkw93Y.jpg)
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How long would you estimate that journey to take John, at that time of night, in a police car ?
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Thanks for the debate guys, there are a few unanswered questions still on this issue of the phone calls but one thing is very clear and that is that the abduction was assisted by the delay in getting the police to the scene of the crime.
The phone records also reveal that no other calls were made from Ocean Club after 10pm, not even one to John Hill.
The only possible scenarios for what occurred are...
I. The McCann's didn't request police assistance as soon as the cursory search was completed.
II. The McCann's or Matthew asked the receptionist to phone the police at around 10.15pm, alas he didn't do so but waited for the manager to arrive.
III. Someone phoned the police using a mobile phone after 10.15pm which was followed by the two other calls from reception but the police were delayed due to being tied up with another call.
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Just out of interest here is the route which the GNR police first responders had to make to get to the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, a distance of about 14 Km.
(http://i.imgur.com/2qkw93Y.jpg)
John, the GNR guys were in the Odiaxere area when they received the first call and in the Vila Valverde area when they received the second one, ten minutes later.
I've seen nowhere that John Hill instructed the receptionist to call the police. Actually I think that if he had thought the police had to be called immediately he would have called himself on his cell phone. Likely the receptionist finally called because MO insisted. Receptionists aren't supposed to call the police before alerting the manager (imo).
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According to the hotel manager, Emma Knight, resort manager John Hill telephoned the police or at least he instructed the receptionist to do so as he didn't speak much Portuguese.
"The hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised and I can confirm that he called the police."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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So there we have it, all that lost time from 10pm to 10.41pm while the abductors were making their escape. GNR police arrive at 11pm but it is after midnight before the PJ put out a full alert.
By then any would-be abductors could have been over 160 miles away quite easily. Remember too that the Spanish border was only 80 miles or 80 minutes away.
It is ironic too but if the abductors aimed for the border they could have used the very road the police would have come down just over an hour later.
The abductors planned their escape well, they picked the moment of least resistance. Most of the Ocean Club senior staff were off duty, a minimal police presence in the area, the cover of darkness and light traffic.
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According to the hotel manager, Emma Knight, resort manager John Hill telephoned the police or at least he instructed the receptionist to do so as he didn't speak much Portuguese.
"The hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised and I can confirm that he called the police."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
John Hill says he was informed at 10:28 by the head of child care service, Mrs Lindsay. He then went to the resort and saw a lot of people "searching the grounds". Then "the deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted". And most likely they had been because all he describes had to take more than 10 minutes.
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Question is why didn't the receptionist alert the police as Matthew Oldfield wanted him to do at 10.15pm? He never even telephoned the manager to ask for permission. Obviously he didn't take the situation too seriously.
Mark Warner's child search plan might work very well in daylight with all staff on duty but it was severely lacking at 10pm at night. A 40 minute delay in telephoning police was inexcusable.
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By then any would-be abductors could have been over 160 miles away quite easily. Remember too that the Spanish border was only 80 miles or 80 minutes away.
Not any would-be abductor, John but a motorized one. This one was the walking kind : 40/45 minutes for 400/450m, this is not even 1km/h (this is why they suspected a local guy).
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By then any would-be abductors could have been over 160 miles away quite easily. Remember too that the Spanish border was only 80 miles or 80 minutes away.
Not any would-be abductor, John but a motorized one. This one was the walking kind : 40/45 minutes for 400/450m, this is not even 1km/h (this is why they suspected a local guy).
The PJ set up a series of road blocks some distance away from Praia da Luz and had the border security put on alert so it appears they had a lot more on their mind other than a pedestrian.
Unfortunately, they were too late.
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Question is why didn't the receptionist alert the police as Matthew Oldfield wanted him to do at 10.15pm?
We don't know whether MO was there at 10:15, 10:20/25 seems more likely. He first searched around and I think he had the idea Madeleine could have taken the short cut to the creche and checked there too, then was asked by Mr McCann (?) to go to the main reception (why not the near by Tapas restaurant ?), took at least 5 minutes to get there.
The asking the main reception to call and the receptionist differing the call are facts not easy to understand. The receptionist might have alerted Mrs Lindsay, since it was a problem with a child, and Mrs Lindsay found she had to inform Mr Hill.
I guess employees are trained to respect hierarchy in those resorts.
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You mean the regime is such that they are shit scared to put a foot wrong?
Irrespective of who did and said what, reception knew shortly after 10pm that a young child had disappeared but did not feel it necessary to call the police. That for me reveals a major problem with the resorts after-hours procedures.
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By then any would-be abductors could have been over 160 miles away quite easily. Remember too that the Spanish border was only 80 miles or 80 minutes away.
Not any would-be abductor, John but a motorized one. This one was the walking kind : 40/45 minutes for 400/450m, this is not even 1km/h (this is why they suspected a local guy).
The PJ set up a series of road blocks some distance away from Praia da Luz and had the border security put on alert so it appears they had a lot more on their mind other than a pedestrian.
Unfortunately, they were too late. (Amaral never ever did get there did he?) @)(++(*
Road blocks were later and frankly I ignore whether border security could be put on alert, since there's no border anymore in Schengen space. Nowadays, in case of a proven case of child abduction non existent borders would be reactivated for some hours.
If you read the GNR's report, you'll see that those officers were worried with a little girl lost, cold and in the darkness. Up to the sunrise. The Jane T scenario didn't sound like an abduction because 1) parent carrying their kid isn't a rare event and 2) as he was walking, the carrier didn't match the idea one has of an abductor (someone in a hurry, thus motorized).
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Question is why didn't the receptionist alert the police as Matthew Oldfield wanted him to do at 10.15pm? He never even telephoned the manager to ask for permission. Obviously he didn't take the situation too seriously.
Mark Warner's child search plan might work very well in daylight with all staff on duty but it was severely lacking at 10pm at night. A 40 minute delay in telephoning police was inexcusable.
MO doesn't say what he and the receptionist did after he asked to call the police. MO says he said the child was abducted, but the phone call to the GNR only mentioned a child had disappeared. If the GNR had been informed of an abduction, they would have called the PJ right away. Mrs Lindsay also seems to have understood a child had disappeared.
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By then any would-be abductors could have been over 160 miles away quite easily. Remember too that the Spanish border was only 80 miles or 80 minutes away.
Not any would-be abductor, John but a motorized one. This one was the walking kind : 40/45 minutes for 400/450m, this is not even 1km/h (this is why they suspected a local guy).
The PJ set up a series of road blocks some distance away from Praia da Luz and had the border security put on alert so it appears they had a lot more on their mind other than a pedestrian.
Unfortunately, they were too late.
Let's be fair here John, if Madeleine was abducted at 9.15pm as the McCanns insist, then an hour had gone by before the alert was even raised
It was already too late
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John, since we observe that the police wasn't alerted on (reasonable) time, the proverb "if you want something done right do it yourself" is once more verified.
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Let's be fair here John, if Madeleine was abducted at 9.15pm as the McCanns insist, then an hour had gone by before the alert was even raised
It was already too late
I totally agree, it seems to have been error compounded upon error.
Very true Anne!
Nite all.
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Thanks for the debate guys, there are a few unanswered questions still on this issue of the phone calls but one thing is very clear and that is that the abduction was assisted by the delay in getting the police to the scene of the crime.
The phone records also reveal that no other calls were made from Ocean Club after 10pm, not even one to John Hill.
The only possible scenarios for what occurred are...
I. The McCann's didn't request police assistance as soon as the cursory search was completed.
II. The McCann's or Matthew asked the receptionist to phone the police at around 10.15pm, alas he didn't do so but waited for the manager to arrive.
III. Someone phoned the police using a mobile phone after 10.15pm which was followed by the two other calls from reception but the police were delayed due to being tied up with another call.
I think option III can be dismissed as unevidenced, and therefore not a viable possibility ( no witness even claims to have contacted the police using a mobile that night )
With regard to the remaining two possibilities, it might be worth noting that even Kate, herself, in her book, does not claim that Matthew Oldfield told reception to contact the police ... she merely remarks that just after 1010pm Gerry asked him to
Matthew himself, has this to say about the incident in his rogatory interview :
"I think if I'd done anything differently I would have stood by the desk and said, no, you must ring now, you really must, rather than just sort of saying, oh, you know, and sort of thinking, well maybe they're right, maybe I'll go back and she's turned up and that'll be absolutely fantastic, maybe I'm wasting his time, but I didn't stand over the desk and say, do it"
To me that sounds like Oldfield was told that it was too soon to phone police because the child had not even been 'looked for' yet
It sounds like he was persuaded that a more thorough search should be done before calling the police in, and when he left reception he was fully aware that the police hadn't been called
Whether he relayed that to the McCanns, we do not know, but it wasn't until 10.35pm that he was asked ( again by Gerry ) to go back to reception
That would tie in with the first recorded call to the police being made at 10.41pm
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Matthew himself, has this to say about the incident in his rogatory interview :
"I think if I'd done anything differently I would have stood by the desk and said, no, you must ring now, you really must, rather than just sort of saying, oh, you know, and sort of thinking, well maybe they're right, maybe I'll go back and she's turned up and that'll be absolutely fantastic, maybe I'm wasting his time, but I didn't stand over the desk and say, do it"
To me that sounds like Oldfield was told that it was too soon to phone police because the child had not even been 'looked for' yet
It sounds like he was persuaded that a more thorough search should be done before calling the police in, and when he left reception he was fully aware that the police hadn't been called
Whether he relayed that to the McCanns, we do not know, but it wasn't until 10.35pm that he was asked ( again by Gerry ) to go back to reception
That would tie in with the first recorded call to the police being made at 10.41pm
Icabodcrane, how could MO be "persuaded that a more thorough search should be done before calling the police in" since, in his first statement he said clearly that he thought it was a "kidnapping with the intention to demand a ransom from the parents, because these are people who are very comfortable financially" ?
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Matthew himself, has this to say about the incident in his rogatory interview :
"I think if I'd done anything differently I would have stood by the desk and said, no, you must ring now, you really must, rather than just sort of saying, oh, you know, and sort of thinking, well maybe they're right, maybe I'll go back and she's turned up and that'll be absolutely fantastic, maybe I'm wasting his time, but I didn't stand over the desk and say, do it"
To me that sounds like Oldfield was told that it was too soon to phone police because the child had not even been 'looked for' yet
It sounds like he was persuaded that a more thorough search should be done before calling the police in, and when he left reception he was fully aware that the police hadn't been called
Whether he relayed that to the McCanns, we do not know, but it wasn't until 10.35pm that he was asked ( again by Gerry ) to go back to reception
That would tie in with the first recorded call to the police being made at 10.41pm
Icabodcrane, how could MO be "persuaded that a more thorough search should be done before calling the police in" since, in his first statement he said clearly that he thought it was a "kidnapping with the intention to demand a ransom from the parents, because these are people who are very comfortable financially" ?
I find that comment from you most odd.
Can you not understand that the comment at the end of the May 4th Interview was made 12 hours or so after the events of the previous night? Can you not see the possible difference in thinking between the moments after being told that a child is missing and the answer to such a question posed 12 hours after a child has gone missing?
Can you not understand that a person may well have changed their mind about the situation based on the fact that it was by then fairly clear that she had not simply wandered or she would almost certainly have been found?
I cannot understand how you apparently conflate the statement made after 12 hours, much of that time in serious reflection I suspect about what had occurred, and the reactions a person would be having immediately after being informed of a child's disappearance.
What was going through Matthew Oldfield's mind at 10pm, minutes after being told Madeleine was not in her bed, and what he would be thinking 12 or more hours later when the child still had not been found are unlikely to be the same thoughts. Initially there would be hope of immediate discovery of the child. After 12 hours other thoughts would come to the fore.
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"I said, you've got to phone the Police, a child's been taken"
ROG MO
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Processos Vol XVII Pages 4599 to 4622
With thanks to Ines
(Part B of the Archiving Dispatch)
B – Concrete Analysis
According to the GNR, the disappearance would have occurred at about 22.40 (it was later checked that the detection and subsequent alarm effectively happened between 22.00 and 22.10) on 3rd May 2007, in one of the apartments of the Ocean Club resort, situated in Praia da Luz – Lagos, where the British family, composed of a couple and three young children were staying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
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Processos Vol XVII Pages 4599 to 4622
With thanks to Ines
(Part B of the Archiving Dispatch)
B – Concrete Analysis
According to the GNR, the disappearance would have occurred at about 22.40 (it was later checked that the detection and subsequent alarm effectively happened between 22.00 and 22.10) on 3rd May 2007, in one of the apartments of the Ocean Club resort, situated in Praia da Luz – Lagos, where the British family, composed of a couple and three young children were staying.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Yes, the child's disappearance was noticed some time between 10pm and 10.10pm, and the alarm was immediately raised
The first phone call to the police was at 22.41pm
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what I find a bit odd is that it is a direct line no to the GNR - not the national emergency number of 112 - if someone suddenly asked mt call the police quick even if I was in front of a desk I wouldn't look up the direct line no I would hit 999
I would want to know if any other extensions in the place called 112 - M<aybe 112 had been called a couple of times and then the Ocean Club reception found the direct no to chase - Did the Tapas bar have an outside line ? did the creche have an outside line ? Are these records fully available Do we have the mobile phone records of all staff from that night to examine ?
Without any of this information all we have is an incomplete picture of how many calls were made to the PJ or GNR - did any one call 112 at any time ??
we do know that there was calls made at 10.41 - but that evidence does not tell us if they were the 1st 2nd or last -
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what I find a bit odd is that it is a direct line no to the GNR - not the national emergency number of 112 - if someone suddenly asked mt call the police quick even if I was in front of a desk I wouldn't look up the direct line no I would hit 999
I would want to know if any other extensions in the place called 112 - M<aybe 112 had been called a couple of times and then the Ocean Club reception found the direct no to chase - Did the Tapas bar have an outside line ? did the creche have an outside line ? Are these records fully available Do we have the mobile phone records of all staff from that night to examine ?
Without any of this information all we have is an incomplete picture of how many calls were made to the PJ or GNR - did any one call 112 at any time ??
we do know that there was calls made at 10.41 - but that evidence does not tell us if they were the 1st 2nd or last -
We can only make a conclusion on the evidence we have ... that there were only two calls to the police that night and they were made from the Ocean Club reception at 22.41pm and 22.52pm
No witness has claimed to have made a call to the police from anywhere else, either by landline or mobile
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dont you think that it is a bit strange that there were no calls that night to 112 ? not one - Maybe the system is different in Portugal but I would have thought that you always call the national emergency -
That has been the the thing about this case from the beginning - files and evidence that is available on line suddenly becomes the absolute
I would want to see a ton more records of calls from the whole resort that night - mobiles the lot before as an investigator I can say yup that was the first call.
Hopefully that is what Grange is doing -
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dont you think that it is a bit strange that there were no calls that night to 112 ? not one - Maybe the system is different in Portugal but I would have thought that you always call the national emergency -
That has been the the thing about this case from the beginning - files and evidence that is available on line suddenly becomes the absolute
I would want to see a ton more records of calls from the whole resort that night - mobiles the lot before as an investigator I can say yup that was the first call.
Hopefully that is what Grange is doing -
Hundreds of people were interviewed ... and not one of them said they had phoned the police that night, either by landline or mobile
The only mention of making a phone call to the police was that made by Mrs Fenn. She says she offered to call the police but that she was told not to by one of the tapas group ( Gerry ? ) because it had already been done
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No witness has claimed to have made a call to the police from anywhere else, either by landline or mobile
Mrs Fenn offered her phone around 22:30 but it was refused because the police had already been called.
Had the national 112 been called, they would have transferred immediately either to the local GNR (lost little girl) or to the regional PJ (abducted little girl). Neither the GNR nor the PJ were contacted before 22:41.
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dont you think that it is a bit strange that there were no calls that night to 112 ? not one - Maybe the system is different in Portugal but I would have thought that you always call the national emergency -
That has been the the thing about this case from the beginning - files and evidence that is available on line suddenly becomes the absolute
I would want to see a ton more records of calls from the whole resort that night - mobiles the lot before as an investigator I can say yup that was the first call.
Hopefully that is what Grange is doing -
Why would Grange do that? Anyway, you wouldnt need the records of everyone there that night, just 112 and local police number records. No 112 calls were made from main reception that day, from any extension just the two calls mentioned earlier.
The Tapas group and Management will have dealt with everything, not people around at the time ringing police off their own backs, IMO
PS Are you implying Grange think police lied about the time of the first call?
I would have thought that was exactly the type of thing that any cold case enquiry does - you go back to the beginning and look at every statement , every detail with a new light - and to me when the alarm was made and who called the police is one of the areas that must have been of interest - you might find nothing but if you go in with the mindset that the phone calls said 10.41 so that must be then IMO you are starting out on the wrong track
The 10.41 first call is fair enough - it doesn't in its self seem that odd - I just raised the question that I did find it strange from the evidence we have presented that no one that night called 112 - no one .
I would have thought that the first call would have been routed through that no - not the direct line of GNR in Lagos - it would be something as an investigator I would want to ask to satisfy my own curiosity
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bumped for Mrs B
All of the issues you raise regarding phone calls to the police on the thread entitled 'Independent witnesses place Gerry at the table ... ' have been discussed here
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bumped for Mrs B
All of the issues you raise regarding phone calls to the police on the thread entitled 'Independent witnesses place Gerry at the tapas bar at 10pm', have been discussed here
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Yes, and now we're raising them again.
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Yes, and now we're raising them again.
Let's do it here then shall we, on the appropriate thread ... rather than derail the other one ?
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It is normal practice for hotels to have the telephone number of the local police station to hand thus avoiding the need to go through the national emergency network in many cases. Calling the local police station directly ensures that the correct information is passed to those who need to know. You also have to remember that the vast majority of any calls made by a hotel to the police are routine and not emergency calls. I am not surprised in the least that the receptionist called the local station to report a missing youngster.
Remember also that this receptionist knew about the furore and the missing girl as early as about 22.10 but did nothing. He was asked to phone the police but didn't do so. He was very content to wait and see the outcome of the hotels missing child plan before contacting anyone and that included the resort manager. For all intents and purposes this was a child who had wandered off as far as the staff were concerned thus the searches all around the premises using torches. By about 22.30 the penny had dropped....this was not a child who had wandered off but something more sinister. Thus the first call to police a few minutes later at 22.41. By then the resort manager Mr Hill had arrived on site and was then beginning to get agitated about the absence of the police. That is when the receptionist put in the second call to the GNR at 22.52. The GNR for their part were not in any hurry to attend the scene as the missing child was NOT notified to them as an abduction. Bad Press you see, no need to make a big deal about it? It was only when they got the second call that the police realised that they might have a bigger problem than they were initially alerted to. Fortunately for them though they were only a few minutes away from Praia da Luz by that point and arrived 10 minutes later at 23.00.
I would say it is unlikely that anyone else phoned the police by 22.52 since had they done so the GNR would have been alerted to a more serious problem than they were first alerted to. As far as they were concerned when they received the first call from reception at 22.41 this was a youngster who had wandered off, nothing more. However by 22.52 they began to realise that they might have a more serious issue to deal with and alerted the mobile patrol accordingly.
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Over the years we have heard from time to time about the resort's "missing child plan." Is this plan detailed anywhere in any of the files, and how much of it was implemented at the beginning of this case?
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Over the years we have heard from time to time about the resort's "missing child plan." Is this plan detailed anywhere in any of the files, and how much of it was implemented at the beginning of this case?
There is something about it in the statement of Lindsey Johnsone, creche supervisor:
To our question, the informant states that Madeleine McCann was accompanied by her parents, Kate and Gerald McCann who are renting apartment G5A at the Ocean Club.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure. This procedure consists of dividing the site into several areas, which are allocated to various of the company's employees to start searching for the missing child. To that effect, the informant explains that, around 10.25pm, the date indicated, the said procedure was begun, dividing the whole site into three distinct areas, namely the north zone, the central zone (including the area of the company) and all the roads surrounding the company and which go as far as the beach. Five of the company's employees were mobilised to coordinate the searches, helped by various people ( other employees, tourists and residents)
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It is normal practice for hotels to have the telephone number of the local police station to hand thus avoiding the need to go through the national emergency network in many cases. Calling the local police station directly ensures that the correct information is passed to those who need to know. You also have to remember that the vast majority of any calls made by a hotel to the police are routine and not emergency calls. I am not surprised in the least that the receptionist called the local station to report a missing youngster.
Remember also that this receptionist knew about the furore and the missing girl as early as about 22.10 but did nothing. He was asked to phone the police but didn't do so. He was very content to wait and see the outcome of the hotels missing child plan before contacting anyone and that included the resort manager. For all intents and purposes this was a child who had wandered off as far as the staff were concerned thus the searches all around the premises using torches. By about 22.30 the penny had dropped....this was not a child who had wandered off but something more sinister. Thus the first call to police a few minutes later at 22.41. By then the resort manager Mr Hill had arrived on site and was then beginning to get agitated about the absence of the police. That is when the receptionist put in the second call to the GNR at 22.52. The GNR for their part were not in any hurry to attend the scene as the missing child was NOT notified to them as an abduction. Bad Press you see, no need to make a big deal about it? It was only when they got the second call that the police realised that they might have a bigger problem than they were initially alerted to. Fortunately for them though they were only a few minutes away from Praia da Luz by that point and arrived 10 minutes later at 23.00.
I would say it is unlikely that anyone else phoned the police by 22.52 since had they done so the GNR would have been alerted to a more serious problem than they were first alerted to. As far as they were concerned when they received the first call from reception at 22.41 this was a youngster who had wandered off, nothing more. However by 22.52 they began to realise that they might have a more serious issue to deal with and alerted the mobile patrol accordingly.
Of course the direct lines of police and gnr are at hand in hotels and receptionists know whether it's convenient to call the police or the gnr.
Normally rented flats have also a board with the reception nb, if not emergency nbs.
The patrol was doing routine and did react immediately. They weren't on highways but on small roads and were already half way when they got the second call. In a case of a small child missing, the second call in itself means it is serious.
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It is normal practice for hotels to have the telephone number of the local police station to hand thus avoiding the need to go through the national emergency network in many cases. Calling the local police station directly ensures that the correct information is passed to those who need to know. You also have to remember that the vast majority of any calls made by a hotel to the police are routine and not emergency calls. I am not surprised in the least that the receptionist called the local station to report a missing youngster.
Remember also that this receptionist knew about the furore and the missing girl as early as about 22.10 but did nothing. He was asked to phone the police but didn't do so. He was very content to wait and see the outcome of the hotels missing child plan before contacting anyone and that included the resort manager. For all intents and purposes this was a child who had wandered off as far as the staff were concerned thus the searches all around the premises using torches. By about 22.30 the penny had dropped....this was not a child who had wandered off but something more sinister. Thus the first call to police a few minutes later at 22.41. By then the resort manager Mr Hill had arrived on site and was then beginning to get agitated about the absence of the police. That is when the receptionist put in the second call to the GNR at 22.52. The GNR for their part were not in any hurry to attend the scene as the missing child was NOT notified to them as an abduction. Bad Press you see, no need to make a big deal about it? It was only when they got the second call that the police realised that they might have a bigger problem than they were initially alerted to. Fortunately for them though they were only a few minutes away from Praia da Luz by that point and arrived 10 minutes later at 23.00.
I would say it is unlikely that anyone else phoned the police by 22.52 since had they done so the GNR would have been alerted to a more serious problem than they were first alerted to. As far as they were concerned when they received the first call from reception at 22.41 this was a youngster who had wandered off, nothing more. However by 22.52 they began to realise that they might have a more serious issue to deal with and alerted the mobile patrol accordingly.
I think that's a fair summary of events Matthew - except that I would say it was the McCanns who were getting frantic when the police had not arrived by the time Mr Hill arrived, because having sent Matt over to reception earlier to ask for the police to be called - they were under the impression that that call had actually been made as requested, and could not understand why the police had not yet arrived.
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My sentiments exactly Benice. After over half an hour the McCanns must have been frantic with worry alright as the staff failed to find any trace of her. Surely it was a sign that all was not as it should be when cuddle cat was still there???
Can someone answer this for me. I keep seeing references to the beach as if it was nearby??? Even the reference to the search arrangements by Lindsay above mention it. Why on earth would they want to search a beach which was over a quarter of a mile away before searching the surrounding streets and paths first? And especially in the dark. No 4 year old child would know where the beach was in daylight let alone in the dark???
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My sentiments exactly Benice. After over half an hour the McCanns must have been frantic with worry alright as the staff failed to find any trace of her. Surely it was a sign that all was as it should be too when cuddle cat was still there???
Can someone answer this for me. I keep seeing references to the beach as if it was nearby??? Even the reference to the search arrangements by Lindsay above mention it. Why on earth would they want to search a beach which was over a quarter of a mile away before searching the surrounding streets and paths first? And especially in the dark. No 4 year old child would know where the beach was in daylight let alone in the dark???
Perhaps their missing child protocol ( as in 'child who may have wandered off and got lost' ) was implemented because that was the only plan they had to follow ... even though, as you say, searching for a three year old on a beach some distance away, at night, makes little sense
The plan was probably in place to deal with youngsters who 'got lost' during daylight hours ... it is highly unlikely that staff would have been trained to deal with the situation they were faced with, or that a specific procedure would be in place for such an eventuality
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Why on earth would they want to search a beach which was over a quarter of a mile away before searching the surrounding streets and paths first? And especially in the dark. No 4 year old child would know where the beach was in daylight let alone in the dark???
They guessed Madeleine had gone out in search of her parents. Matthew Oldfield thought she could have taken the familiar route to the main reception. This is likely why he went there instead of asking the Tapas staff to call the main reception.
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My sentiments exactly Benice. After over half an hour the McCanns must have been frantic with worry alright as the staff failed to find any trace of her. Surely it was a sign that all was as it should be too when cuddle cat was still there???
Can someone answer this for me. I keep seeing references to the beach as if it was nearby??? Even the reference to the search arrangements by Lindsay above mention it. Why on earth would they want to search a beach which was over a quarter of a mile away before searching the surrounding streets and paths first? And especially in the dark. No 4 year old child would know where the beach was in daylight let alone in the dark???
Perhaps their missing child protocol ( as in 'child who may have wandered off and got lost' ) was implemented because that was the only plan they had to follow ... even though, as you say, searching for a three year old on a beach some distance away, at night, makes little sense
The plan was probably in place to deal with youngsters who 'got lost' during daylight hours ... it is highly unlikely that staff would have been trained to deal with the situation they were faced with, or that a specific procedure would be in place for such an eventuality
I find the idea that the protocol was to deal with daytime situations quite feasible.
I'm not even sure how many torches or headlamps were available - people were ringing around to try to get hold of more.
Lots of people did join in the search, which is heartwarming, but it must have been a bit chaotic at night.
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Some probably thought their voices could scare her.
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Response to Mrs B's post on the other thread at 7.25pm so as not to derail that one any more
Quote Mrs B
I maintain that there are CONFLICTING witness statements contained within the files & I also maintain that the telephone records ONLY show that a phone call was made at a certain time from that particular line. That, in itself, does not EXCLUDE that a phone call could have been made EARLIER from another line or a mobile phone.
It's not difficult!
Unquote
***
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm
See bottom of page, the second picture details the first and second call, highlighted in yellow, ALL OC extensions are included for calls made out
Is your argument that a call was made to either 112 or the local GNR and it was in the first instance, not put through to the local GNR immediately by the 112 operators? Or any call made to the GNR outwith the main reception on a landline or mobile was not recorded by the GNR? Highly unlikely.
PJ report states when the call came through
Informed about the disappearance, the whole group went to the McCann's apartment, accompanied by OC employees, who searched the apartment and the adjacent area several times, without results. The call to the GNR took place at 22.41, according to the list in folio 3051.http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAO_CARLOS.htm
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I have read it, in fact, I've read most of the files. I still haven't seen any records relating to mobile phones. If you have access to them, I would be most interested. Thanks you!
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I have read it, in fact, I've read most of the files. I still haven't seen any records relating to mobile phones. If you have access to them, I would be most interested. Thanks you!
Irrelevant until you answer my queries, thats presuming your last post was a response to mine
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Irrelevant, as you have not made any query.
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Irrelevant, as you have not made any query.
Do reread my second paragraph, after the first link,in your haste perhaps you overlooked it
Edited for clarity
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Yes, I claim that there is a possibility that a receptionist could have called local police using a mobile phone. The reference 3051 mentioned in Joao Carlos statement is in fact the telephone record referred to in your first link, i.e. not a separate GNR log. Therefore I cannot EXCLUDE the possibility that a receptionist could have used a mobile phone to make a local call to the police. Something that is routinely done in any reception all over the world, in my experience.
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So why is there no police record? And why do the Pj say the call came in at 22 41 and not any mention of a call before
?
Why the insistence an earlier call was made? Or probably was made or possible was made? Witness statements on the timeline are all over the shop, they are only valid if corroborated by others and by hard evidence imo and none of that is happening here
Edited for afterthought
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No, what I'm saying is that the possibility cannot be EXCLUDED & as far as I can tell, nobody has so far provided any document that does exclude it.
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No, what I'm saying is that the possibility cannot be EXCLUDED & as far as I can tell, nobody has so far provided any document that does exclude it.
Why does a remote possibility that someone rang police before the police say they did need to be excluded? Or included for that matter
Bottom line, what is the problem here?
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Problem? There is no problem as far as I'm concerned, there are conflicting statements & records in the files. As is to be expected in a major investigation.
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You dodged the question, and there are no conflicting records vis a vis when the police received their first phone call
Conflicting statements, yes a penny a dozen for those and that includes the tapas 9
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You dodged the question, and there are no conflicting records vis a vis when the police received their first phone call
Conflicting statements, yes a penny a dozen for those and that includes the tapas 9
With regard to the first phone call to the police, there is only one conflicting witness statement ... that of the Ocean Club receptionist
His statement is in direct conflict with the recorded telephone data
No other witness ... not a single one ... claims to have made a phone call to the police that night, either by landline or mobile
it is insupportable to insist that someone 'might' have done so, based on no evidence whatsoever
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Well, you can find it as insupportable as you wish. You have still not provided any proof that the witness was lying or is mistaken. And if you don't understand the concept of time, I really cannot help you.
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Well, you can find it as insupportable as you wish. You have still not provided any proof that the witness was lying or is mistaken. And if you don't understand the concept of time, I really cannot help you.
Anyone corroborate this witness? Cos John Hill certainly doesnt
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So? Not a good enough reason to discard a witness off hand, there is nothing that contradicts it.
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So? Not a good enough reason to discard a witness off hand, there is nothing that contradicts it.
The factual, unquestionable 'phone records' contradict it
You are being obtuse in not accepting that simple truth
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So? Not a good enough reason to discard a witness off hand, there is nothing that contradicts it.
AT LEAST two witness statements contradict it, the pj police contradict it, so where does that leave your peculiar incessant need to make it true
>@@(*&)
now you can argue it with someone who cares anymore for this pointless point
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No, I'm not actually. The telephone records are what they are, they show the time when A phone call was made to the police, they show nothing else but that.
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So? Not a good enough reason to discard a witness off hand, there is nothing that contradicts it.
AT LEAST two witness statements contradict it, the pj police contradict it, so where does that leave your peculiar incessant need to make it true
>@@(*&)
LOL No, they don't. The only reference is to the land line record. Nobody is denying that A phone call was made. But it doesn't exclude that an earlier one COULD have taken place.
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So? Not a good enough reason to discard a witness off hand, there is nothing that contradicts it.
AT LEAST two witness statements contradict it, the pj police contradict it, so where does that leave your peculiar incessant need to make it true
>@@(*&)
LOL No, they don't. The only reference is to the land line record. Nobody is denying that A phone call was made. But it doesn't exclude that an earlier one COULD have taken place.
Amy Tierney and John Hills statements contradict it, there are no records of calls to the police so unless you want to accuse the PJ of hiding records of phone calls made before 22 41 there is no Lol about it, enjoy, Im out of this pointless merrygoround
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Yes, good idea, there are conflicting statements in the files. Live with it. Nothing changes that fact.
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Yes, good idea, there are conflicting statements in the files. Live with it. Nothing changes that fact.
No, the POINT is no one and nothing corroborates your star witness, and you have no FACTS in this respect, there is a total lack of any, not rocket science
blocking you for time wasting claptrap
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Even better idea 8((()*/
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unless you want to accuse the PJ of hiding records of phone calls made before 22 41 there is no Lol about it, enjoy, Im out of this pointless merrygoround
Not as pointless as that, Redblossom, the subliminal attempt can't be but cast a doubt on the PJ, the GNR or the 112. One more doubt ! Is it a smart way to divert the doubt from elsewhere ? I... doubt it.
The eventually guilty entity eventually omitted the eventual cellphone call of the OC receptionist who regularly received eventual orders from Mr Hill and from nobody else.
In hotels, normally, every mature person (not having a cell phone, which is rare nowadays) can freely use the reception land line. No receptionist will refuse that.
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Can we get back to the nitty gritty here - as this could go round and round forever.
The fact is that the sceptics hold up the telephone record showing the first call was made at 10.41pm because they want to say 'the McCanns didn't even bother to ring the police untiil that time' Those that don't agree then produce evidence from the witness files to show that was not the case.
The truth of the matter IMO is that the McCAnns never rang the police at all, because
(a) they didn't know the number
and
(b) even if they had known the number they could not speak Portuguese.
But, I do believe that Matt did go to reception early on at Gerry's request and asked the receptionist to ring the police. I believe this because no way would Matt claim to have had a face to face conversation with the Receptionist if it never happened - as it could be so easily disproved..
Personally I don't think that phone call was made, but Gerry BELIEVED it had been made, and so when the police did not arrive within the time he expected them too - he got Mr. Hill to make, what he thought was ANOTHER call - but which in actual fact may have been the first call to the police at 10.41.
So yes the sceptics may be right in saying the first call was made at 10.41 but they are wrong to claim that it was because the McCanns could not be bothered to ring them until then.
This is just my opinion - no-one is obliged to agree with it.
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Very nicely put, Benice.
8((()*/
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No other witness ... not a single one ... claims to have made a phone call to the police that night, either by landline or mobile
it is insupportable to insist that someone 'might' have done so, based on no evidence whatsoever
Well I can give you one Ica. Jeronimo asked Ricardo to telephone the police. In fact there is no reason why someone didn't use a mobile telephone to call 112...problem is we will never know.
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Can we get back to the nitty gritty here - as this could go round and round forever.
The fact is that the sceptics hold up the telephone record showing the first call was made at 10.41pm because they want to say 'the McCanns didn't even bother to ring the police untiil that time' Those that don't agree then produce evidence from the witness files to show that was not the case.
The truth of the matter IMO is that the McCAnns never rang the police at all, because
(a) they didn't know the number
and
(b) even if they had known the number they could not speak Portuguese.
But, I do believe that Matt did go to reception early on at Gerry's request and asked the receptionist to ring the police. I believe this because no way would Matt claim to have had a face to face conversation with the Receptionist if it never happened - as it could be so easily disproved..
Personally I don't think that phone call was made, but Gerry BELIEVED it had been made, and so when the police did not arrive within the time he expected them too - he got Mr. Hill to make, what he thought was ANOTHER call - but which in actual fact may have been the first call to the police at 10.41.
So yes the sceptics may be right in saying the first call was made at 10.41 but they are wrong to claim that it was because the McCanns could not be bothered to ring them until then.
This is just my opinion - no-one is obliged to agree with it.
ABSOLUTELY!!! 8@??)(
The receptionist didn't bother his ar.. phoning the police because he thought she would be found hiding somewhere in the grounds and that would make him look like a right tit when the GNR arrived.
If John Hill hadn't arrived on site would he have bothered at all and delayed for another half hour?
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No other witness ... not a single one ... claims to have made a phone call to the police that night, either by landline or mobile
it is insupportable to insist that someone 'might' have done so, based on no evidence whatsoever
Well I can give you one Ica. Jeronimo asked Ricardo to telephone the police. In fact there is no reason why someone didn't use a mobile telephone to call 112...problem is we will never know.
It doesn't matter if Jeronimo asked Ricardo to telephone the police ... what matters is whether the phone call was actually made
And with regard to an earlier call to the police by mobile, what we do know is that no-one claims to have made one
This long thread has, I think, established that it is a myth that police took 50 minutes to an hour to respond to the first call
Can it be logged on the Myth forum now ?
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No other witness ... not a single one ... claims to have made a phone call to the police that night, either by landline or mobile
it is insupportable to insist that someone 'might' have done so, based on no evidence whatsoever
Well I can give you one Ica. Jeronimo asked Ricardo to telephone the police. In fact there is no reason why someone didn't use a mobile telephone to call 112...problem is we will never know.
Precisely, we will never know, we can only assume.
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No other witness ... not a single one ... claims to have made a phone call to the police that night, either by landline or mobile
it is insupportable to insist that someone 'might' have done so, based on no evidence whatsoever
Well I can give you one Ica. Jeronimo asked Ricardo to telephone the police. In fact there is no reason why someone didn't use a mobile telephone to call 112...problem is we will never know.
It doesn't matter if Jeronimo asked Ricardo to telephone the police ... what matters is whether the phone call was actually made
And with regard to an earlier call to the police by mobile, what we do know is that no-one claims to have made one
This long thread has, I think, established that it is a myth that police took 50 minutes to an hour to respond to the first call
Can it be logged on the Myth forum now ?
Can it also be logged that the claim that the McCanns could not be bothered to ring the police until 10.40 is also a myth?
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
Please, where has the police admitted that they didn't treat the call as an emergency ?
Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa
02-Processos Volume II Pages 417-419
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
G.N.R. Military Personnel
Concerning the issue of the process said;
. In the sequence of facts, he was with the patrol of the GNR that went to the Ocean Club Gardens establishment (situated in Para da Luz) on night of May 03, 2007, with the goal of investigating the circumstances that surrounded the disappearance of a minor, of British nationality, that was installed there temporarily, together with the rest of her more direct family ' knowing these to be, the respective parents, and two siblings, twins, minors, whose name do not need to be clarified;
. Clarifies that the occurrence in question was transmitted to the above referenced patrol via radio, at time when they were located in Odiaxere;
. The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child;
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
The police arrived within 20 minutes of the first call ( at 22.41pm ) ... when the second call was made at 22.52pm they werev already on their way, and arrived less than 10 minutes later
Whether or not someone 'might' have called the police on a mobile phone sometime earlier is entirely speculatory, as there is no evidence whatsover to support that suggestion
It is a 'myth' that the police took 50 minutes or more to respond to the first call, and it is disappointing that the forum will not acknowlege that
We have a 'Myths' section, and this one should certainly be there
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
The police arrived within 20 minutes of the first call ( at 22.41pm ) ... when the second call was made at 22.52pm they werev already on their way, and arrived less than 10 minutes later
Whether or not someone 'might' have called the police on a mobile phone sometime earlier is entirely speculatory, as there is no evidence whatsover to support that suggestion
It is a 'myth' that the police took 50 minutes or more to respond to the first call, and it is disappointing that the forum will not acknowlege that
We have a 'Myths' section, and this one should certainly be there
I wouldn't disagree with that - as long as you will agree that the sceptics' claim that the reason why the first call was not made until 10.40 was because the McCanns could not be bothered to call the police until then is also a myth. Can we agree on that?
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In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
You believe a colleague and acquaintance's child has been abducted , the poor father sends you out of despair search help close to authorities. You only find a receptionist, but at least he's got a phone and speaks also the language of the authorities. You tell him what happened. He doesn't react. You do nothing, you don't scream, you just stare at him and wait and then finally leave hoping he will call ?
And the famous call made on a cell phone, who made it ? The receptionist ? Why didn't this phone call produce any reaction whereas the 21:41 one produced one ? The GNR thought "Oh, it will be fine" ? And considering nothing went fine, they decided to conceal they had received a first call nobody claims to be, though a register on a cell phone proves the right thing was done ?
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
The police arrived within 20 minutes of the first call ( at 22.41pm ) ... when the second call was made at 22.52pm they werev already on their way, and arrived less than 10 minutes later
Whether or not someone 'might' have called the police on a mobile phone sometime earlier is entirely speculatory, as there is no evidence whatsover to support that suggestion
It is a 'myth' that the police took 50 minutes or more to respond to the first call, and it is disappointing that the forum will not acknowlege that
We have a 'Myths' section, and this one should certainly be there
I wouldn't disagree with that - as long as you will agree that the sceptics' claim that the reason why the first call was not made until 10.40 was because the McCanns could not be bothered to call the police until then is also a myth. Can we agree on that?
Absolutely
There is evidence that the McCanns thought the police had been contacted about 25 minutes before they actually were
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
The police arrived within 20 minutes of the first call ( at 22.41pm ) ... when the second call was made at 22.52pm they werev already on their way, and arrived less than 10 minutes later
Whether or not someone 'might' have called the police on a mobile phone sometime earlier is entirely speculatory, as there is no evidence whatsover to support that suggestion
It is a 'myth' that the police took 50 minutes or more to respond to the first call, and it is disappointing that the forum will not acknowlege that
We have a 'Myths' section, and this one should certainly be there
Hate to point this out but we can't be sure of the time of the first call. In addition, rightly or wrongly, it is stated that several calls were made to the police.
Can I remind you of the Accommodation managers statement...
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
As John Hill never arrived until after 10.30pm we can only assume that they were in contact by mobile telephone.
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First off, the police have admitted that they did not treat the call as an emergency in the first instance and it was only following the receipt of the second call that they sped to the scene.
In the absence of any mobile telephone records it is not possible to determine when the first call was made to the police or by whom.
If anyone was responsible for a delay it was the receptionist.
The police arrived within 20 minutes of the first call ( at 22.41pm ) ... when the second call was made at 22.52pm they werev already on their way, and arrived less than 10 minutes later
Whether or not someone 'might' have called the police on a mobile phone sometime earlier is entirely speculatory, as there is no evidence whatsover to support that suggestion
It is a 'myth' that the police took 50 minutes or more to respond to the first call, and it is disappointing that the forum will not acknowlege that
We have a 'Myths' section, and this one should certainly be there
Hate to point this out but we can't be sure of the time of the first call.
Yes we can
It was made from the Ocean Club reception at 22.41pm
That is the first call to the police that there is any record of and evidence for
'Imagining' that an earlier call might have been made, is nothing more than make-believe !
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There is no way of knowing for sure if this was the first call to police. Anyone could have made a 112 call from a mobile telephone.
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There is evidence that the McCanns thought the police had been contacted about 25 minutes before they actually were
If the McCanns admit they thought the police had been contacted about half an hour before the police was actually contacted, if they read the files, why don't they reckon that the police arrived in a very decent delay ?
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By their own evidence the police admit that they didn't treat the first call as urgent.
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There is no way of knowing for sure if this was the first call to police. Anyone could have made a 112 call from a mobile telephone.
Anyone could, that's true, but nobody did, unfortunately, because all were well equipped and could have lend their cellphones to the Tapas restaurant employees, asking to call the emergency service.
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By their own evidence the police admit that they didn't treat the first call as urgent.
I asked you a link to that evidence... And sent the statement of one patrolling officer that shows it's not true.
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I clearly need a holiday
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By their own evidence the police admit that they didn't treat the first call as urgent.
I asked you a link to that evidence... And sent the statement of one patrolling officer that shows it's not true.
With pleasure...I will remind you of GNR Chief officer Roque's statement Anne.
As regards the facts on the night of 3rd May, when he was on patrol with his colleague Costa in Odiaxere, he received a radio communication from the central telling him to go to P da L, specifically to the reception of OC resort where the father of a girl who had disappeared was. When they were on their way to this place and had reached the zone of Valverde he received another communication saying that this was a very young girl and that her father had called again. They continued on their way, now with urgency, heading for the main reception of the resort.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
In English that means they weren't in a hurry until they got yet another call.
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Very interesting that Officer Roque added...
He did not feel that this was an abduction, although this was the line indicated by the father.
Now why would that be?
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By their own evidence the police admit that they didn't treat the first call as urgent.
I asked you a link to that evidence... And sent the statement of one patrolling officer that shows it's not true.
With pleasure...I will remind you of GNR Chief officer Roque's statement Anne.
As regards the facts on the night of 3rd May, when he was on patrol with his colleague Costa in Odiaxere, he received a radio communication from the central telling him to go to P da L, specifically to the reception of OC resort where the father of a girl who had disappeared was. When they were on their way to this place and had reached the zone of Valverde he received another communication saying that this was a very young girl and that her father had called again. They continued on their way, now with urgency, heading for the main reception of the resort.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
In English that means they weren't in a hurry until they got thyet another call.
The statement I sent was made on the 7th of May by the officer Nelson Roque Costa
The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child
The statement you're sending was made in October by the same officer Nelson Roque. Costa
When they were on their way to this place and in the Valverde area, they received a new communication, informing them that this was a very young child and that her father had called again. They continued on their way, now with urgency, heading for the main reception of the resort.
First statements are always more accurate, as you know. Besides the "urgency" of this second statement betrays that the officers were more worried than after the first call, as anyone would be.
I followed this route in my old Corsa and it took me more time (of course it was the first time for me, not for the GNR).
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It is noteworthy that the statement by Roque and that by Coasta are almost identical to begin with evidencing the fact that they colluded in making their statements to the PJ. Naughty cops. @)(++(*
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The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment
So, when they finally arrived at the OC they went STRAIGHT to reception. i.e. they didn't go anywhere else, didn't stop to have a quick beer in the tapas bar or visit the little boys' room or anything, no, they went to the reception. That's all it means.
And we know that they didn't treat the matter as urgent because of the following:
He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere.
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They probably thought that the missing girl had run off and hid somewhere in the resort grounds being more or less what the receptionist said to Matthew when he initially approached the main desk for help. This was something new to Ocean Club and something I personally feel they would rather not have happened to them.
Did everyone notice the comment by the police officers about the involvement of the British envoy and Sky News? What the hell!!! ???
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Hang on a bit. Somewhere I thought that I had read that they were in Oxiadere when the call came in <<< but I am not sure of that.
Oxiadere is just 6 miles away from PdL, crow flies. Am I right that they claim they got the call when they were at Oxiadere? Valdeverte is 20 miles, crow flies, in the opposite direction
If so, why did they chose to drive, not to PdL but 20 miles in the opposite direction to Valdeverte?
[Both distances considerably longer by road, probably 25 miles each way ... a total of about 50 miles ... and they are not motorways either}
To drive 25 miles in the wrong direction then 25 miles back to PdL, would take a tadge longer than 20 minutes.
Have I misunderstiid the situation or is some one telling porkies?.
Was the call received much earlier than is claimed by the GNR?
What's going on here? ... or have I missed something? If I have, pls tell me.
John, if I am right, about this scenario, is there any chance that we can have a GE image showing these places, please? Might be good to have the image, anyhow, if it is not too much trouble.
Cheers sadie x
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They probably thought that the missing girl had run off and hid somewhere in the resort grounds being more or less what the receptionist said to Matthew when he initially approached the main desk for help. This was something new to Ocean Club and something I personally feel they would rather not have happened to them.
Did everyone notice the comment by the police officers about the involvement of the British envoy and Sky News? What the hell!!! ???
I saw the mention of the Consulate Staff in Batista's statement ("He did not see the fridge" - he mentions out of the blue...hmmm) but who mentioned Sky News?
Nelson Costa mentioned both the Embassy and Sky News here on 17 Oct 2007 (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA.htm)
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Like a lot of towns and villages the name is repeated. The GNR were in the Odiaxere (depicted A on map) when they received the first call and in the Vila Valverde area (depicted B on map) when they received the second one, ten minutes later.
Ocean Club depicted C on map.
(http://i.imgur.com/iiJCoPV.jpg)
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Thanks John, that clears that one up nicely
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Some excerpts taken from Madeleine.
(http://i.imgur.com/f9SKbd8.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/CJH3GhJ.png)
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Some excerpts taken from Madeleine.
(http://i.imgur.com/f9SKbd8.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/CJH3GhJ.png)
What point are you making John ?
We know that Matthew Oldfield was asked by Gerry to go to reception, and we know that Oldfield did as Gerry requested
In his own statement , though, Oldfield expresses regret that he did not insist that the reception call the police there and then ( in fact, he gives the impression that he left reception fully aware that the police had not been called at that point )
As to John Hill being described by Kate as finding the wait ( for the police to arrive ) difficult, it should be pointed out that John Hill ( by his own statement ) declares that he was first informed, on his mobile, at 22.28pm. Five minutes later ( 22.33pm ) he presented himself at the resort
He says that on arrival he saw about a hundred people searching the grounds, and that intially he thought that the child had got lost. When the searches did not produce any results he became increasingly worried
It was not until then that he went to reception to see if the authorities had been alerted ( this would exactly correspond to that first call being made to the police at 22.41, through John Hill's instruction )
Also worth noting, is that John Hill declares that a further 15 minutes passed before he went to the McCann's apartment and met them
Kate's extract reads as though John Hill was with her at 10.35pm, and that he was already agitated that the police had not arrived
That is misleading. John Hill ( by his own timing ) did not meet the McCanns until 10.55pm, some 15 minutes after he ordered that the police be called ( which explains his reassurance to Kate that the police would be there soon ) ... he was right, they arrived within the next five minutes ( 20 minutes after they had first been contacted )
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So what route did Matthew take to get to the main Ocean Club reception?
At this point I am more interested in why Gerry asked Matthew to go to the 24 hour reception when he had already been there himself
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Thanks Anne, it is always best to get the basics sorted even now. Some photos on the internet even show the wrong position for the tapas bar never mind the completely wrong location for the Murat villa.
Here is the reference mentioned earlier. Two points worthy of note.
1. The Mini Club is above the 24-Hr reception (blue dot on map).
2. Gerry asked Mat to go 'back down' to the 24-hr reception at 10.35pm to find out why the GNR had not arrived. Remind me...didn't the staff only telephone them at 10.41pm according to some?
3. So looks like Gerry had been down to the Mini Club/24-Hr Reception soon after the disappearance was discovered, returned to the apartment and had to ask Mat to go back down again when the police didn't arrive.
4. Pleading with people to call the police from the tapas area. So there are other calls independent from those listed on the land-line records attributed to reception. 8@??)(
(http://i.imgur.com/W1Ys51R.jpg)
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Thanks Anne, it is always best to get the basics sorted even now. Some photos on the internet even show the wrong position for the tapas bar never mind the completely wrong location for the Murat villa.
Here is the reference mentioned earlier. Two points worthy of note.
1. The Mini Club above the 24-Hr reception.
2. Gerry asked Mat to go 'back down' to the 24-hr reception at 10.35pm to find out why the GNR had not arrived. Remind me...didn't the staff only telephone them at 10.41pm according to some?
(http://i.imgur.com/W1Ys51R.jpg)
I would add
3. At that moment she (Pamela Fenn) offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30.
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Thanks Anne, it is always best to get the basics sorted even now. Some photos on the internet even show the wrong position for the tapas bar never mind the completely wrong location for the Murat villa.
Here is the reference mentioned earlier. Two points worthy of note.
1. The Mini Club is above the 24-Hr reception (blue dot on map).
2. Gerry asked Mat to go 'back down' to the 24-hr reception at 10.35pm to find out why the GNR had not arrived. Remind me...didn't the staff only telephone them at 10.41pm according to some?
3. So looks like Gerry had been down to the Mini Club/24-Hr Reception soon after the disappearance was discovered, returned to the apartment and had to ask Mat to go back down again when the police didn't arrive.
4. Pleading with people to call the police from the tapas area. So there are other calls independent from those listed on the land-line records attributed to reception. 8@??)(
(http://i.imgur.com/W1Ys51R.jpg)
What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
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What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
Nothing odd about it, when Mrs Fenn offered to let Gerry use the phone, around 10.30, they had already been called. By 10.35 they still hadn't arrived, so they were called again.
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That's what she says, he thanked her for her kind offer but assumed the reception guy had done it when Gerry asked him shortly after 10.10pm. Question is why didn't he do so? Hmm... >@@(*&)
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Since Matthew is unlikely to have been aware of the short cut ( having no child using the mini club ) he probably took the long way round
Matthew went there twice.
Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, to the main reception essentially, looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten". It was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just woken up and he thought she's probably wandered off or something like that and you thought maybe you're right, can you please, it was , it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, he'd ring, but you had to stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, maybe about ten past ten maybe. , then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn't in the apartment, I volunteered to go up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the restaurant,
so we'd only been at the initial welcoming,
at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around, and they were very good, they, they obviously, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police,
I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, back to reception, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well
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What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
Nothing odd about it, when Mrs Fenn offered to let Gerry use the phone, around 10.30, they had already been called. By 10.35 they still hadn't arrived, so they were called again.
'Around 10.30' and 'by 10.35' . Splitting hairs, aren't we ?
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What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
Nothing odd about it, when Mrs Fenn offered to let Gerry use the phone, around 10.30, they had already been called. By 10.35 they still hadn't arrived, so they were called again.
'Around 10.30' and 'by 10.35' . Splitting hairs, aren't we ?
If you say so!
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What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
Yes, that struck me as being significant too ... the more people raising the alarm the better, yet Gerry rejected a direct offer to call the police
Even more significant, though, is the fact that Gerry himself had been at the 24 hour reception but made no demand for the police to called while was there ... did not even ask whether the police had been called already and stress that they were needed urgently
He just went back to the apartment and asked Matthew to go back to the 24 hour reception and do what he had chosen not to do himself while he was there
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insert
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What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
Yes, that struck me as being significant too ... the more people raising the alarm the better, yet Gerry rejected a direct offer to call the police
Even more significant, though, is the fact that Gerry himself had been at the 24 hour reception but made no demand for the police to called while was there ... did not even ask whether the police had been called already and stress that they were needed urgently
He just went back to the apartment and asked Matthew to go back to the 24 hour reception and do what he had chosen not to do himself while he was there
That's not how the description in Kate's book reads to me. If you read the 'extract' in it's full context, imo Gerry wasn't going to reception to speak to someone in reception - he was going to the Mini club to look for Madeleine.
It's not clear from Kates's book when he did that, but it sounds as if it was part of all the frantic searching here there and everywhere that he was doing - and was AFTER he thought the police had already been called from Reception.
When he didn't find her at the Mini club he went back to the apartment at some stage - still under the impression that the police had been called - and when the police still hadn't arrived at around 10.30 he asked Matt to go back to reception. And that's when John Hill arrived at 5A. IMO
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What strikes me about the extract from Kate's book posted by you John is if the McCanns were pleading with people to phone the police too why did Gerry refuse Mrs Fenn's offer to call them ?
Yes, that struck me as being significant too ... the more people raising the alarm the better, yet Gerry rejected a direct offer to call the police
Even more significant, though, is the fact that Gerry himself had been at the 24 hour reception but made no demand for the police to called while was there ... did not even ask whether the police had been called already and stress that they were needed urgently
He just went back to the apartment and asked Matthew to go back to the 24 hour reception and do what he had chosen not to do himself while he was there
Just to follow on from my post above, I should mention that I was going by Kate's book alone ... she says that Gerry asked Matthew to go to the 24 hour reception to ask them to call the police at just after 10.10pm. She adds that when the police still hadn't arrived at 10.35pm Gerry again asked Matthew to go back to the 24 hour reception and find out what was happening
Kate mentions that at some point Gerry had been to the Mini Club ( above the 24 hour reception ) to see if Madeleine had made her own way there after being left somewhere ) She makes no mention of Gerry, himself, having made any request to reception for the police to be called
From Gerry's 7th September interview there is this though :
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they remained inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While guests and resort workers were searching, he went to themain reception to check whether they had called the police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After returning from reception he went back into the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom
So Gerry had gone to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ( according to his own witness statement ) yet, in her book, Kate contradicts this and says it was Matthew who did it ( twice ) at Gerry's request
What to believe ?
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Just to follow on from my post above, I should mention that I was going by Kate's book alone ... she says that Gerry asked Matthew to go to the 24 hour reception to ask them to call the police at just after 10.10pm. She adds that when the police still hadn't arrived at 10.35pm Gerry again asked Matthew to go back to the 24 hour reception and find out what was happening
Kate mentions that at some point Gerry had been to the Mini Club ( above the 24 hour reception ) to see if Madeleine had made her own way there after being left somewhere ) She makes no mention of Gerry, himself, having made any request to reception for the police to be called
From Gerry's 7th September interview there is this though :
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they remained inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While guests and resort workers were searching, he went to themain reception to check whether they had called the police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After returning from reception he went back into the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom
So Gerry had gone to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ( according to his own witness statement ) yet, in her book, Kate contradicts this and says it was Matthew who did it ( twice ) at Gerry's request
What to believe ?
Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check. Matt asked them, Gerry checked probably while also checking the club, and later when they had not arrived asked Matthew to recheck. That is how it reads to me.
Nothing contradictory at all.
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What to believe? Not KMs book for sure
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What to believe? Not KMs book for sure
Why?
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I do agree Benice, Gerry's first thoughts at going to the 24-Hr Reception was to see if Maddie had wandered down there, to the Club, a route she knew quite well. He would have indicated a potential problem to staff but they appear not to have acted on it. Going by what Mat states in his interviews the reception staff were dismissive of his request to call the police even later on which is corroborated by the telephone records which show that the receptionist never phoned the GNR until 10.41pm having most probably got a flea in his ear from manager John Hill.
All that wasted time.
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Just to follow on from my post above, I should mention that I was going by Kate's book alone ... she says that Gerry asked Matthew to go to the 24 hour reception to ask them to call the police at just after 10.10pm. She adds that when the police still hadn't arrived at 10.35pm Gerry again asked Matthew to go back to the 24 hour reception and find out what was happening
Kate mentions that at some point Gerry had been to the Mini Club ( above the 24 hour reception ) to see if Madeleine had made her own way there after being left somewhere ) She makes no mention of Gerry, himself, having made any request to reception for the police to be called
From Gerry's 7th September interview there is this though :
When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they remained inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While guests and resort workers were searching, he went to themain reception to check whether they had called the police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After returning from reception he went back into the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom
So Gerry had gone to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ( according to his own witness statement ) yet, in her book, Kate contradicts this and says it was Matthew who did it ( twice ) at Gerry's request
What to believe ?
Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
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I do agree Benice, Gerry's first thoughts at going to the 24-Hr Reception was to see if Maddie had wandered down there, to the Club, a route she knew quite well. He would have indicated a potential problem to staff but they appear not to have acted on it. Going by what Mat states in his interviews the reception staff were dismissive of his request to call the police even later on which is corroborated by the telephone records which show that the receptionist never phoned the GNR until 10.41pm having most probably got a flea in his ear from manager John Hill.
All that wasted time.
Phew. Glad that's cleared up.
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
The thrust of that particular part of the book was the frustration and anguish they were suffering as a direct consequence of the delay in the police arriving
Yet Kate, whilst recalling Gerry having twice asked Matthew to go and ask at reception, makes no mention of Gerry having gone there himself to ask about the police
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
The thrust of that particular part of the book was the frustration and anguish they were suffering as a direct consequence of the delay in the police arriving
Yet Kate, whilst recalling Gerry having twice asked Matthew to go and ask at reception, makes no mention of Gerry having gone there himself to ask about the police
And you think that proves what exactly?
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
The thrust of that particular part of the book was the frustration and anguish they were suffering as a direct consequence of the delay in the police arriving
Yet Kate, whilst recalling Gerry having twice asked Matthew to go and ask at reception, makes no mention of Gerry having gone there himself to ask about the police
So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
The thrust of that particular part of the book was the frustration and anguish they were suffering as a direct consequence of the delay in the police arriving
Yet Kate, whilst recalling Gerry having twice asked Matthew to go and ask at reception, makes no mention of Gerry having gone there himself to ask about the police
So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
The thrust of that particular part of the book was the frustration and anguish they were suffering as a direct consequence of the delay in the police arriving
Yet Kate, whilst recalling Gerry having twice asked Matthew to go and ask at reception, makes no mention of Gerry having gone there himself to ask about the police
So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
You may think it's significant but apparently Kate didn't when she was writing her book. She gave a description of what happened in the hour after Madeleine had been abducted. I don't suppose for a second that she has mentioned every single thing she remembers - or every single thing everyone did that she knows about. She was writing a book not a minute by minute report. It would have been set of volumes had she done that.
The phrase 'You can't please all of the people all of the time' springs to mind.
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Both accounts.
Because there is absolutely no contradiction at all.
One focuses on the phone call and one focuses on the search for the child.
There is nothing there that suggests Gerry did not at some point ask Matthew to go back and check.
But why did Kate omit to mention that Gerry, himself, had been to the 24 hour reception to ask about calling the police ?
Brevity? Not every breath, thought and action is reported in the book. The editors would have a fit if they were.
Perhaps she thought that as this was in the context of the paragraphs of searching and calling the police there was enough detail. Perhaps she was highlighting the different aspects of the searching?
I repeat there is absolutely no contradiction as you claimed in those few pages of the book relating to the calling of the police.
That you are nit-picking over the fact that Kate did not mention every single action that everybody undertook that evening is to my mind rather pointless.
The thrust of that particular part of the book was the frustration and anguish they were suffering as a direct consequence of the delay in the police arriving
Yet Kate, whilst recalling Gerry having twice asked Matthew to go and ask at reception, makes no mention of Gerry having gone there himself to ask about the police
So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
you don't even know the layout or anything
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So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
In my view it it utterly insignificant and is merely a form of nitpicking.
One account refers to the fact that Gerry checked the kids club. This may have been at the same time as he went to the Reception. We do not know for sure.
Another account written with a completely different focus some years previously relates the fact that Gerry went to the reception. Perhaps he insisted then, perhaps not. We really do not know and probably never will.
There is no inconsistency or discrepancy at all, no significance whatsoever.
You still have failed to explain what you think any of this proves.
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So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
In my view it it utterly insignificant and is merely a form of nitpicking.
One account refers to the fact that Gerry checked the kids club. This may have been at the same time as he went to the Reception. We do not know for sure.
Another account written with a completely different focus some years previously relates the fact that Gerry went to the reception. Perhaps he insisted then, perhaps not. We really do not know and probably never will.
There is no inconsistency or discrepancy at all, no significance whatsoever.
You still have failed to explain what you think any of this proves.
It proves that six years later we still havn't had answers from the McCanns to even the most basic questions
Did Gerry ask the receptionist to call the police that night, for instance ?
It's a pretty fundemental question isn't it ? ... and it's never been answered has it ?
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So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
In my view it it utterly insignificant and is merely a form of nitpicking.
One account refers to the fact that Gerry checked the kids club. This may have been at the same time as he went to the Reception. We do not know for sure.
Another account written with a completely different focus some years previously relates the fact that Gerry went to the reception. Perhaps he insisted then, perhaps not. We really do not know and probably never will.
There is no inconsistency or discrepancy at all, no significance whatsoever.
You still have failed to explain what you think any of this proves.
It proves that six years later we still havn't had answers from the McCanns to even the most basic questions
Did Gerry ask the receptionist to call the police that night, for instance ?
It's a pretty fundemental question isn't it ? ... and it's never been answered has it ?
Apols if I'm wrong, but I thought you said he gave the answer to that in his statement to the police.
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So she didn't mention it - so what is so sinister about that?
I didn't say it was 'sinister' I said it was significant ... and it is in relation to this thread, which asks when the police were first contacted, and by whom
We are told, by Gerry, through his police statement, that he went to the 24 hour reception to ask about the police
So what time was that ? ... what did they tell him ? ... did they tell him that the police had already been called, or that that the police had not been called yet ... what was Gerry's response, did he insist that the police be called there and then in his presence, or did he not ?
This is very relevent detail ( especially with a view to the McCanns subsequent berating of the police response ) so why hasn't Gerry given those details ? ... and why did Kate not take the opportunity to give them in her book ?
In my view it it utterly insignificant and is merely a form of nitpicking.
One account refers to the fact that Gerry checked the kids club. This may have been at the same time as he went to the Reception. We do not know for sure.
Another account written with a completely different focus some years previously relates the fact that Gerry went to the reception. Perhaps he insisted then, perhaps not. We really do not know and probably never will.
There is no inconsistency or discrepancy at all, no significance whatsoever.
You still have failed to explain what you think any of this proves.
It proves that six years later we still havn't had answers from the McCanns to even the most basic questions
Did Gerry ask the receptionist to call the police that night, for instance ?
It's a pretty fundemental question isn't it ? ... and it's never been answered has it ?
Apols if I'm wrong, but I thought you said he gave the answer to that in his statement to the police.
He said he went to the 24 hour reception to 'ask about the police'
What does that mean ? ... and what did reception tell him 'about the police' ?
And why did Kate make no mention of this visit made to reception by Gerry in her book ... whilst bothering to tell us about the two times Gerry asked Matthew to go there ?
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
"03- Processos Vol III Pages 796 to 797
TRANSLATIONS BY INES
03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_796
03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_797
Date: 2007/05/09
Witness Statement
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception VÃtor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
Reads, signs, ratifies."
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I understand that there are some who think the McCanns should not be questioned about anything regarding their daughter's disappearance, but there are those of us who think they should, at least, be clear about the most fundemental details
They have been fully aware of the questions that have been asked ... indeed, whilst the Portuguese investigation was ongoing they frequently alluded to the fact that they wanted to address the questions being asked, but were compelled not to, given Portuguese judicial secrecy
Yet five years after the 'secrecy' impediment was lifted, we still don't even know something as basic as how soon Gerry went to reception and what was said there
I have never come across anyone who thinks the McCanns should not be questioned about absolutely everything relating to the case.
The difference is that you appear to think that they should be questioned by and have to answer amateur detectives on forums, blogs and even on Twitter. The reality is that they have no responsibilty to do any such thing.
And you have claimed that you think it is a fundamental matter that Gerry's statement and Kate's book written years later don't match word for word. I find that idea ridiculous personally. It is not fundamental, it isn't even significant to the crux of the matter the disappearance of Madeleine.
I think you are nit-picking and I think many readers here will feel the same.
Regarding the topic under discussion it is not merely a matter of Gerry's statement and Kate's book not 'matching word for word' it is a case of Gerry saying he did something ( went to reception to ask about the police ) and Kate implying ( by ommission ) that he had done any such thing
And it certainly is significant to the crux of this thread, which seeks to determine who first contacted the police and when
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I do not in any way whatsoever think as you do that the omission suggests what you claim about Gerry going to the Reception or not. She says he was at the miniclub. She says nothing about reception.
That's true, Gilet, but is also true the fact that nobody of the miniclub saw Mr McCann.
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Rachael :
her husband headed to the main reception to see if he could find MADELEINE there, since her "nursery" was there, that also being the place he contacted the local police authorities.
Matt sort of went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, and I went to tell Jane what had happened
Fiona :
I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police.
Matthew :
Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police
I volunteered to go up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken
It seems the idea to go and phone the police was Fiona's.
Going to the Millennium Restaurant was a smart idea, because Madeleine could have thought her parents were there since she had had dinner with them in that restaurant.
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I do not in any way whatsoever think as you do that the omission suggests what you claim about Gerry going to the Reception or not. She says he was at the miniclub. She says nothing about reception.
That's true, Gilet, but is also true the fact that nobody of the miniclub saw Mr McCann.
Do you actually have any evidence to support that claim or is that just your assumption based on omissions? Have each of the staff present at the time actually stated that?
I simply do not accept that omission of this kind is evidence of anything because we do not know what those staff were asked.
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Rachael :
her husband headed to the main reception to see if he could find MADELEINE there, since her "nursery" was there, that also being the place he contacted the local police authorities.
Matt sort of went off to sort of look a bit more and search and he, he went down to call the Police at the main reception of the Ocean Club, and I went to tell Jane what had happened
Fiona :
I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police.
Matthew :
Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police
I volunteered to go up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken
It seems the idea to go and phone the police was Fiona's.
Going to the Millennium Restaurant was a smart idea, because Madeleine could have thought her parents were there since she had had dinner with them in that restaurant.
Seriously are you trying to suggest that in the panic of the moment, in the desperation of such a situation there could not have been two people who made similar suggestions?
Or what is the point you are making by the use of this snippet?
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I have no reason to doubt what the TP7 told, except for a few un-truths said to protect themselves from neglect accusation. So when Matthew says Fiona asked him and when Fiona says she asked Matthew to go to the main reception in order to have the police called, I'm prone to think it is true.
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I have no reason to doubt what the TP7 told, except for a few un-truths said to protect themselves from neglect accusation. So when Matthew says Fiona asked him and when Fiona says she asked Matthew to go to the main reception in order to have the police called, I'm prone to think it is true.
I also think this is true. Just as I think it is true that Gerry made the same suggestion.
You still don't seem to be aware that more than one person can make the same suggestion. Just because Fiona suggested it does NOT mean Gerry didn't.
On the other matter, could you please specify what "untruths" you are referring to regarding people covering up neglect or is that just a nasty dig without real evidence?
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Gerry McCann asked for the police to be called a lot earlier than that.
Really.
What time was that then, and can it be corroborated ?
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Gerry McCann asked for the police to be called a lot earlier than that.
Whether or not the parents were neglectful or not shouldn't have been an issue, a child was missing and that child deserved to have been given 100 %. Not putting out her photo straight away, not alerting the ferry and airports etc. in my opinion is not giving 100%. It was Amaral's fault not the police who were just following orders.
Who did Gerry ask to call the police? Fiona asked Matt to do it, but he was too wimpish to get the job done;
I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Who did Gerry ask to call the police? Fiona asked Matt to do it, but he was too wimpish to get the job done;
I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Gerry wasn't with them when Fiona asked Matt to go. Matt didn't see Gerry next after the alarm until he arrived with John Hill at reception at around 10:40.
Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well. (MO)
10:10 to 10:40 = 30 minutes
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I have heard from various sources - those being newspaper reports largely that the police were first called at 10.14 on the 3rd of May after Madeleine disappeared. I've also heard contradictory reports that the Portuguese police say the first call they received was at 10.40.
So what time were the police in fact called that night? Any actual evidence would be appreciated although I suspect this is another area of huge uncertainty.
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I have heard from various sources - those being newspaper reports largely that the police were first called at 10.14 on the 3rd of May after Madeleine disappeared. I've also heard contradictory reports that the Portuguese police say the first call they received was at 10.40.
So what time were the police in fact called that night? Any actual evidence would be appreciated although I suspect this is another area of huge uncertainty.
Several people claimed to have phoned the police but the local GNR call records reveal that the first one was received at 10.40pm. There is always the possibility that a call was made by a member of OC staff to a known police mobile number and this was not included within the files.
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Several people claimed to have phoned the police but the local GNR call records reveal that the first one was received at 10.40pm. There is always the possibility that a call was made by a member of OC staff to a known police mobile number and this was not included within the files.
Someone could have used a mobile phone to phone them, but no-one phoned using the Ocean Club land line. It's cut off the times, but the full page is here;
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/Processo11aVolumeXIapage3051.JPG&target=tlx_picukbw
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I have heard from various sources - those being newspaper reports largely that the police were first called at 10.14 on the 3rd of May after Madeleine disappeared. I've also heard contradictory reports that the Portuguese police say the first call they received was at 10.40.
So what time were the police in fact called that night? Any actual evidence would be appreciated although I suspect this is another area of huge uncertainty.
10.14 is a deliberate or accidental inversal of the time the first police call was logged, ie 10.41
There simply isn't any evidence in existence that police were called before then, which does, understandably raise many questions
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Several people claimed to have phoned the police but the local GNR call records reveal that the first one was received at 10.40pm. There is always the possibility that a call was made by a member of OC staff to a known police mobile number and this was not included within the files.
Why would police not include an earlier phone call in the files, this is getting a bit silly tbh
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You can't rule out a call on a mobile though imo. Easiest thing in the world to use your personal mobile especially for convenience even sheer laziness. The phone record here I assume is simply a record of the ocean club reception phone data, so of course a call on a mobile or different phone would not be on there. I was just interested in this as I've seen it written several times that the first phone call to police was at 10.14. Is interesting that 10.14 is 10.41 reversed. Where did the time 10.14 originate from? I can't see that info anywhere... perhaps a media invention?
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Perhaps 10.14 was in the press because that's near to the 'official' time that the group said they asked reception to phone. The record I provided covers all of the Ocean Club including the Tapas, Millennium, etc. I can't imagine the receptionist using his mobile for company business, although he says he called the police earlier than the record shows. Although John Hill had a mobile phone he went to reception and asked the receptionist to telephone the police at around 10.40pm, I think.
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You can't rule out a call on a mobile though imo. Easiest thing in the world to use your personal mobile especially for convenience even sheer laziness. The phone record here I assume is simply a record of the ocean club reception phone data, so of course a call on a mobile or different phone would not be on there. I was just interested in this as I've seen it written several times that the first phone call to police was at 10.14. Is interesting that 10.14 is 10.41 reversed. Where did the time 10.14 originate from? I can't see that info anywhere... perhaps a media invention?
Invention or accident as I already posted.Probably invention IMO
IF someone had called police on their mobile, dont you thnk it might be recorded gossipped about or spilt in the papers?
Only a conspiracy theorist could explain that police were called but they never said so
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Oh i see. Confusing.
So, rereading this, is the record provided of phone calls that night to the local police or police emergency number like 999? Is the record complete and does it include all phone calls that night to the police or just Ocean Club, Millennium etc?
I could possibly see someone using their mobile tbh. People don't always stick to company guidelines and Portugal is a fairly chilled place. Local phone calls are practically free nowadays.
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first you have to answer why police would lie about something which can be checked easily
second, you have to question why people state police WERE called without any evidence at all to back up their claims
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Do these policeman have to be lying? These policeman could have just been made aware of the situation from the police call center at that time....
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Do these policeman have to be lying? These policeman could have just been made aware of the situation from the police call center at that time....
everythng is logged and printed in the PJ files
an action of such importance would be included IMO
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Oh i see. Confusing.
So, rereading this, is the record provided of phone calls that night to the local police or police emergency number like 999? Is the record complete and does it include all phone calls that night to the police or just Ocean Club, Millennium etc?
I could possibly see someone using their mobile tbh. People don't always stick to company guidelines and Portugal is a fairly chilled place. Local phone calls are practically free nowadays.
Yes the records of the Lagos GNR station landline are in the files and show all incoming calls, from landlines and mobiles, from everyone.
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Yes the records of the Lagos GNR station landline are in the files and show all incoming calls, from landlines and mobiles, from everyone.
THAT surely settles that then? no one called the police until 10 41
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THAT surely settles that then? no one called the police until 10 41
Yes 10:41pm was the first call to police (unless Portugal Telecom's computer had its clock set wrong which is unlikely).
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Yes 10:41pm was the first call to police (unless Portugal Telecom's computer had its clock set wrong which is unlikely).
thats why i dont understand the lies
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thats why i dont understand the lies
What lies? Do you think these 2 independant witnesses who clearly state that the first phone calls to the police were made between 10.00 and 10.15 were lying?
No witnesses lied IMO. But because of the known fallibility of memory, it does not follow that their recollections regarding times were accurate. Lying doesn't come into it.
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis, receptionist
"He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared. That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again."
Vitor Manuel dos Santos, Head of accommodation
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
End quote.
As far as the McCanns knew - the reception staff had been asked to phone the police - and they had done that.
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@Benice. But JH did not arrive in PDL until about 22.33pm
... he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found. Upon arriving at the scene he saw about 100 people, employees, guests and residents searching the grounds, the beach and adjoining areas calling out the child's name. Initially the deponent thought that the child had got lost or disorientated, but as the searches did not produce any results he became increasingly worried. The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted ...."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
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@Benice. But JH did not arrive in PDL until about 10.33pm
... he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found. Upon arriving at the scene he saw about 100 people, employees, guests and residents searching the grounds, the beach and adjoining areas calling out the child's name. Initially the deponent thought that the child had got lost or disorientated, but as the searches did not produce any results he became increasingly worried. The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted ...."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
I think you have missed the point Pegasus, which was because different people's recall of what time phone calls were made are incorrect, it does not mean they were lying. That includes the McCanns and their friends.
Mercury apparently thinks people lied. IMO everyone gave their genuine recollections of the times - and lying does not come into it.
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Benice, phone calls are logged, thats it, there is proof when police were called and it doesnt add up with when people say therey were called, thats all, unless you can prove otherwise
Ok let me reverse my post they werent lies they were beliefs but no one has any right to state a belief as a fact, that ok?
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Benice, phone calls are logged, thats it, there is proof when police were called and it doesnt add up with when people say therey were called, thats all, unless you can prove otherwise
So do you think the two witnesses I quoted (one of whom actually did make the phone calls) were lying? If so, why would they do that?
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How are all the calls to 112 handled? How are the redirected calls recorded on that computer print out?
JH dialled the GNR Lagos on the direct line.
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So do you think the two witnesses I quoted (one of whom actually did make the phone calls) were lying? If so, why would they do that?
I have no idea what they were doing but they certainly did not call the police at time that is reported
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I have no idea what they were doing but they certainly did not call the police at time that is reported
I agree that the first phone call was 10.41. Would you agree that as there is no reason for those two witnesses to lie - they were simply mistaken in the times they state - and their recollections re times were simply wrong - but not intentionally so?
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I agree that the first phone call was 10.41. Would you agree that as there is no reason for those two witnesses to lie - they were simply mistaken in the times they state - and their recollections re times were simply wrong - but not intentionally so?
Of course i do, why wouldnt i, but kate lied
in her book!!
FACT
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I think you have missed the point Pegasus, which was because different people's recall of what time phone calls were made are incorrect, it does not mean they were lying. That includes the McCanns and their friends.
Mercury apparently thinks people lied. IMO everyone gave their genuine recollections of the times - and lying does not come into it.
The first phonecall to police was at 22.41, an exact time in the network computer records of Portugal Telecom.
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Of course i do, why wouldnt i, but kate lied
in her book!!
FACT
Cite please?
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The first phonecall to police was at 22.41, an exact time in the network computer records of Portugal Telecom.
Yes I know, so do you think the two independent witnesses (one of whom actually made the phone calls) were lying when they stated that they were made between 10.00 and 10.15? If so - why?
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Cite please?
The cite is the recorded phone calls benice!
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Yes I know, so do you think the two independent witnesses (one of whom actually made the phone calls) were lying when they stated that they were made between 10.00 and 10.15? If so - why?
Therere is no proof he she made the phone calls at that time
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So what did Kate say which makes her a liar?
That the police were called, after all her book was entitled an account of the truth.this wasnt any truth ergo a lie
Ps lets not forget she had all the police files af the time, so will have known the FACTS
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How are all the calls to 112 handled? How are the redirected calls recorded on that computer print out?
JH dialled the GNR Lagos on the direct line.
IMO the two calls from reception landline to GNR landline were probably direct, not routed via 112.
The Portugal Telecom records in the files state the GNR Lagos number.
It was HL who made those calls (at JH's request).
BTW if the T9 with their 8 mobiles had known the number 112 they could have spoken with english speaking operator.
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Therere is no proof he she made the phone calls at that time
Exactly - in fact the telephone records show that they were both mistaken - and if they didn't lie, (which I don't believe they did) - then it simply proves the fallibility of memory and how different human beings have completely different perceptions of time, which can be grossly inaccurate. But what has that got to do with your claim that Kate lied in her book? What did she say?
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That the police were called, after all her book was entitled an account of the truth.this wasnt any truth ergo a lie
Ps lets not forget she had all the police files af the time, so will have known the FACTS
But the police were called. So where is the lie?
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Many here say the Mccanns didnt know the 112 number though it comes up as the emergency number when your phone moves Countries, still, maybe many ignore it but that is no excuse in not finding a police number as soon As you KNOW you kid has been abducted, not FOURTY MORE
MINUTES AT LEAST LATER!
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Exactly - in fact the telephone records show that they were both mistaken - and if they didn't lie, (which I don't believe they did) - then it simply proves the fallibility of memory and how different human beings have completely different perceptions of time, which can be grossly inaccurate. But what has that got to do with your claim that Kate lied in her book? What did she say?
what? What telephone records proved who was mistaken? There are records of all calls from ocean club phones and records to pj and gnr phone lines.NO PHONE CALL WASMADE BEFORE 10 41, get over it benice
Ps kate mccann asserted a phone call was made 5/10 mins after 10 pm..it wasnt
Tis just hearsay and possibly probBly a LIE
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Nowhere does MO claim that anyone actually phoned police at 22.10.
Actually he states "I don't know if they rang at that point"
BTW is possible that the employee MO spoke to was not HL?
What if he was on rest break and someone else was covering desk?
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Many here say the Mccanns didnt know the 112 number though it comes up as the emergency number when your phone moves Countries, still, maybe many ignore it but that is no excuse in not finding a police number as soon As you KNOW you kid has been abducted, not FOURTY MORE
MINUTES AT LEAST LATER!
What has any of that got to do with your claim that Kate lied in her book. Please provide the cite backing that claim up.
The fact that the correct times the phone calls were made are in the files is irrelevant. I presume (because I haven't seen the cite) that Kate was describing her recall of what happened as she remembered it that night - in exactly the same way as those other two witnesses (one of whom made the calls) described what happened as they remembered it.
Lying doesn't come into it IMO.
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Many here say the Mccanns didnt know the 112 number though it comes up as the emergency number when your phone moves Countries, still, maybe many ignore it but that is no excuse in not finding a police number as soon As you KNOW you kid has been abducted, not FOURTY MORE
MINUTES AT LEAST LATER!
There is a video stating "we didn't know the emergency number"
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There is a video stating "we didn't know the emergency number"
thanks
But no excuse still not to ask anyone else immediately, fact remains police were not called for about one hour and a half later from the so called abduction and then told they were mugs cos they lost the golden hour
Nice start of the planned campaign to slag off the police
which fat philo started. 4 may
It was the Mccanns responsible for the loss of the golden hour, no one else, must them
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what? What telephone records proved who was mistaken? There are records of all calls from ocean club phones and records to pj and gnr phone lines.NO PHONE CALL WASMADE BEFORE 10 41, get over it benice
Ps kate mccann asserted a phone call was made 5/10 mins after 10 pm..it wasnt
Tis just hearsay
The telephone records which showed the first call was made at 10.41 proved they were all mistaken. The 2 independent witnesses also claimed the first call was made between 10.00 and 10.15. It is a well known fact that memory recall is notoriously unreliable in human beings - and whether you like it or not that includes the McCanns.
Off to bed now. G'night mercury.
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thanks
But no excuse still not to ask anyone else immediately, fact remains police were not called for about one hour and a half later from the so called abduction and then told they were mugs cos they lost the golden hour
Nice start of the planned campaign to slag off the police
which fat philo started. 4 may
It was the Mccanns responsible for the loss of the golden hour, no one else, must them
The other reason given for not using one of their 8 mobiles to phone police, was "we didn't speak portuguese", which is reasonable and true. (However Portugal does provide english speaking 112 operators).
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The other reason given for not using one of their 8 mobiles to phone police, was "we didn't speak portuguese", which is reasonable and true. (However Portugal does provide english speaking 112 operators).
Everyone speaks english!!!
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18:54 I knew straight away she had been taken. Well put it this way I knew she hadn't walked out of the apartment. Kate
I have to say when I got there and Kate told me and when I looked at the scene as well I had absolutely no doubt. But our immediate reaction was to double and triple check. We did do that both in the apartment and in the vicinity. And then we said call the police and one of our friends alerted both the resort manager and the police. Gerry
19:33 And that was within 5 minutes or so it was very quick. Kate
Source - Chile documentary - see documentaries thread for full transcript.
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Everyone speaks english!!!
LOL You don't seriously believe that, do you? The GNR officers who showed up certainly didn't.
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thanks
But no excuse still not to ask anyone else immediately, fact remains police were not called for about one hour and a half later from the so called abduction and then told they were mugs cos they lost the golden hour
Nice start of the planned campaign to slag off the police
which fat philo started. 4 may
It was the Mccanns responsible for the loss of the golden hour, no one else, must them
How can a call at 10:41 be an hour and a half after 10:10?
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18:54 I knew straight away she had been taken. Well put it this way I knew she hadn't walked out of the apartment. Kate
I have to say when I got there and Kate told me and when I looked at the scene as well I had absolutely no doubt. But our immediate reaction was to double and triple check. We did do that both in the apartment and in the vicinity. And then we said call the police and one of our friends alerted both the resort manager and the police. Gerry
19:33 And that was within 5 minutes or so it was very quick. Kate
Source - Chile documentary - see documentaries thread for full transcript.
The resort manager was first notified at 22.28, by a phonecall from employee Lindsay.
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How can a call at 10:41 be an hour and a half after 10:10?
What call at 10.10 ?
Where is the unadulterated record and proof that this occurred ?
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What call at 10.10 ?
Where is the unadulterated record and proof that this occurred ?
What was said is that the 10.41 call was made one and a half hours after the alleged abduction at 9.15, so criticising the Portuguese police for delays is a waste of time. Any abductor could have been miles away by the time the police were called.
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What was said is that the 10.41 call was made one and a half hours after the alleged abduction at 9.15, so criticising the Portuguese police for delays is a waste of time. Any abductor could have been miles away by the time the police were called.
Precisely.
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What was said is that the 10.41 call was made one and a half hours after the alleged abduction at 9.15, so criticising the Portuguese police for delays is a waste of time. Any abductor could have been miles away by the time the police were called.
As far as the McCanns knew the police had been called when Russell asked for the call to be made- which was around 10 mins after they had checked and double checked 5a and the immediate vicinity.
However IMO the reception staff decided not to call the police until the Manager authorised it. After all, no child had ever been abducted in the past and all children who had previously gone missing had been found as a result of the 'Missing child' protocol. They probably thought at that early stage that this was going result in the same outcome.
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As far as the McCanns knew the police had been called when Russell asked for the call to be made- which was around 10 mins after they had checked and double checked 5a and the immediate vicinity.
However IMO the reception staff decided not to call the police until the Manager authorised it. After all, no child had ever been abducted in the past and all children who had previously gone missing had been found as a result of the 'Missing child' protocol. They probably thought at that early stage that this was going result in the same outcome.
ANY PROOF OF THAT WHATSOEVER ?
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As far as the McCanns knew the police had been called when Russell asked for the call to be made- which was around 10 mins after they had checked and double checked 5a and the immediate vicinity.
However IMO the reception staff decided not to call the police until the Manager authorised it. After all, no child had ever been abducted in the past and all children who had previously gone missing had been found as a result of the 'Missing child' protocol. They probably thought at that early stage that this was going result in the same outcome.
I agree with that Benice. Reading Russell's statement they were very reluctant to ring the police, so as you have said probably waited for the Manager to authorise it.
A waiter also mentioned about calling the police when Gerry was searching around the pool area, whether he did or not I don't know.
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I agree with that Benice. Reading Russell's statement they were very reluctant to ring the police, so as you have said probably waited for the Manager to authorise it.
A waiter also mentioned about calling the police when Gerry was searching around the pool area, whether he did or not I don't know.
If something happened to a child at 21:20 and the first request to call police was at about 22:05 that is an initial delay of about 45 minutes which obviously is not the fault of the holiday company nor of the police.
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If something happened to a child at 21:20 and the first request to call police was at about 22:05 that is an initial delay of about 45 minutes which obviously is not the fault of the holiday company nor of the police.
Who knew before Madeleine's mother found her bed empty at appx. 22:00 that anything was amiss in the apartment?
Your 21:20 time is therefore impossible.
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The telephone records which showed the first call was made at 10.41 proved they were all mistaken. The 2 independent witnesses also claimed the first call was made between 10.00 and 10.15. It is a well known fact that memory recall is notoriously unreliable in human beings - and whether you like it or not that includes the McCanns.
Off to bed now. G'night mercury.
Sorry, missed this, I agree, thanks, they were mistaken, police were not called till 10 41, so it's no good saying police were called at 10.10 and then complaining they took ages to arrive, it's been eight years,the facts are out there, and Kate McCann should have known better than to promote such "stuff"
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LOL You don't seriously believe that, do you? The GNR officers who showed up certainly didn't.
112 operators do, plenty of ocean club employees did, plus when your mobile switches countries you are given the local emergency number, granted, some take no notice, but it's not hard to ask anyone around in an English speaking resort what the police number is, rather than send someone tracking the other side of the resort, could have done both
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How can a call at 10:41 be an hour and a half after 10:10?
This has been answered by others, 10 41 is an hour and a half more or less from 9 15 ...my point partly being the police got the blame for wasting that initial golden hour
Everyone agreed police were NOT called 5/10 minutes after 10 pm? as alledged by some? there is proof when they WERE called, there is no proof they WERE called before that
Another "non notch" in the book called "an account of the truth"
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This has been answered by others, 10 41 is an hour and a half more or less from 9 15 ...my point partly being the police got the blame for wasting that initial golden hour
Everyone agreed police were NOT called 5/10 minutes after 10 pm? as alledged by some? there is proof when they WERE called, there is no proof they WERE called before that
Another "non notch" in the book called "an account of the truth"
Kate was giving a description of what happened after they found Madeline missing. She described what they did, and what they thought. They genuinely THOUGHT that the police had been called at around 10.10. so she wasn't lying in her book. The fact that many months later it was shown that the first phone call was at 10.41 does not make any difference to what she believed at the time.
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The question of this thread can be answered in 5 letters:
22:41
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Was the person to whom Russell spoke with on the 24 hour reception desk interviewed?
Russell went to the desk and asked them to call the police, he would have presumed they had.
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Was the person to whom Russell spoke with on the 24 hour reception desk interviewed?
Russell went to the desk and asked them to call the police, he would have presumed they had.
It was Matt.
I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Kate was giving a description of what happened after they found Madeline missing. She described what they did, and what they thought. They genuinely THOUGHT that the police had been called at around 10.10. so she wasn't lying in her book. The fact that many months later it was shown that the first phone call was at 10.41 does not make any difference to what she believed at the time.
I wonder why she didn't mention in the book that although they thought the call had been made at 10.10pm, it was not actually made until 10.41pm? She had been in possession of the released files for some time before the book was published.
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I wonder why she didn't mention in the book that although they thought the call had been made at 10.10pm, it was not actually made until 10.41pm? She had been in possession of the released files for some time before the book was published.
Exactly but nothing's changed. They still have Tannerman on their website. Fenn hearing Madeleine crying is not in their book nor what time they got back to the apartment that night. It is not an account of the FULL truth only what they want you to know after cross-checking everything against the files not to implicate themselves. She now looks out of the window after knowing her fingerprints were found in the files. You have to slide the window to open it where fingerprints were discovered. No glove marks dear dear dear. And why haven't they been released? The fund paid from public money.
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It was Matt.
I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Yes, it was Matt, I was just going to alter my post thank you PF.
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I wonder why she didn't mention in the book that although they thought the call had been made at 10.10pm, it was not actually made until 10.41pm? She had been in possession of the released files for some time before the book was published.
Because she was giving a description of what happened that night - what they did and what they thought. She wasn't talking about anything else other than that. If you have read her book you would realise that.
Even when she got the files, she would still think 10.10 was the correct time as 2 of the staff - including the person who made the calls - confirm it in their statements. It wouldn't be until - ( if and when) she saw the Telephone record that she would realise they were mistaken. However, none of that changes what they did and what they believed to be the events on the night of the 3rd as they happened - which was what she was exclusively describing in her book in that particular chapter.
To accuse her of lying about the times in her book (which another poster did) - on the grounds that info which showed she was wrong - but which she didn't know about until many moons later - is grossly unfair IMO.
AIMO
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Because she was giving a description of what happened that night - what they did and what they thought. She wasn't talking about anything else other than that. If you have read her book you would realise that.
Even when she got the files, she would still think 10.10 was the correct time as 2 of the staff - including the person who made the calls - confirm it in their statements. It wouldn't be until - ( if and when) she saw the Telephone record that she would realise they were mistaken. However, none of that changes what they did and what they believed to be the events on the night of the 3rd as they happened - which was what she was exclusively describing in her book in that particular chapter.
To accuse her of lying about the times in her book (which another poster did) - on the grounds that info which showed she was wrong - but which she didn't know about until many moons later - is grossly unfair IMO.
AIMO
How would she know they were called? Why didn't she ring Matt to find out if the police were on their way? He was at reception. They had mobiles but they weren't used until gone 11pm. The PJ couldn't find any bloody calls the next day except one on Kate's phone but not on Gerry's. How much abnormal behaviour do you want? You don't ring to find out but you wipe phone call history. Dear dear dear!
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How would she know they were called? Why didn't she ring Matt to find out if the police were on their way? He was at reception. They had mobiles but they weren't used until gone 11pm. The PJ couldn't find any bloody calls the next day except one on Kate's phone but not on Gerry's. How much abnormal behaviour do you want? You don't ring to find out but you wipe phone call history. Dear dear dear!
Why would she be interested in confirming during all that mayhem what time Matt went to phone the police? As far as she knew she already knew the time. That's a ridiculous suggestion IMO - she did have other things on her mind in case you have forgotten Once again you are using hindsight which they didn't have at the time - and also expecting them all to be completely unaffected by what had just happened. So unrealistic IMO.
I know nothing about mobile phones, but IIRC some mobiles only allowed a limited no. of call/messages(?) to be stored and so to make room for new calls at such a time seems sensible to me.
Must go out now.
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One needs a keen sense of the ridiculous when digesting the content of this thread.
A bunch of professional intelligentsia, as we are oft advised by a few posters, allegedly trained to act decisively and think lucidly in emergencies:
One delegates the task of phoning the police to another and/or there is a chat about who should make a call or indeed if a call should be made and to whom. It is not quite clear and no one really seems to know what happened with any degree of certainty.
We are led to believe none of them knew the emergency phone number !
The time of the first phone call, alleged to be before 10:41, was not known or recorded by either the OC or the mobile phone from which the call was made, whichever.
The police recorded the incorrect time because they were incompetent or, even at such early doors, were already involved in a conspiracy of events before they even knew what the event was.
All the protagonists reacted in the same way, panic!. Nary a one was of the type who in an emergency has a hyper-arousal of the senses and thinks lucidly and acts accordingly?
I guess in the absence of anything else reasonable, one would be inclined to believe 10:41.
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One needs a keen sense of the ridiculous when digesting the content of this thread.
A bunch of professional intelligentsia, as we are oft advised by a few posters, allegedly trained to act decisively and think lucidly in emergencies:
One delegates the task of phoning the police to another and/or there is a chat about who should make a call or indeed if a call should be made and to whom. It is not quite clear and no one really seems to know what happened with any degree of certainty.
We are led to believe none of them knew the emergency phone number !
The time of the first phone call, alleged to be before 10:41, was not known or recorded by either the OC or the mobile phone from which the call was made, whichever.
The police recorded the incorrect time because they were incompetent or, even at such early doors, were already involved in a conspiracy of events before they even knew what the event was.
All the protagonists reacted in the same way, panic!. Nary a one was of the type who in an emergency has a hyper-arousal of the senses and thinks lucidly and acts accordingly?
I guess in the absence of anything else reasonable, one would be inclined to believe 10:41.
Good to see you back, refreshed and in relatively good form.
Yeah ... it is a bit ridiculous that this group of professionals were responding to an emergency situation in a foreign land by running around like headless chickens ... just as us 'normal chavs' would have done if one of our children had gone missing from her bed.
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Good to see you back, refreshed and in relatively good form.
Yeah ... it is a bit ridiculous that this group of professionals were responding to an emergency situation in a foreign land by running around like headless chickens ... just as us 'normal chavs' would have done if one of our children had gone missing from her bed.
I can believe and excuse the parents going into flight rather than fight mode under the circumstances but everyone else too? That does take some believing.
I find it odd, that seemingly in this group of above average highly trained people not one seems to have instinctively known where to start. Like with so many other issues in this case most points of argument are justified on the basis of being able to have ones bun and ones ha'penny when it suits; quite admirably demonstrated in your line about the intelligentsia behaving like a bunch of chavs. The point is they had been trained at some considerable expense not to, so if they did why did they?
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Not too headless to be unable to phone all the right people, though.
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I can believe and excuse the parents going into flight rather than fight mode under the circumstances but everyone else too? That does take some believing.
I find it odd, that seemingly in this group of above average highly trained people not one seems to have instinctively known where to start. Like with so many other issues in this case most points of argument are justified on the basis of being able to have ones bun and ones ha'penny when it suits; quite admirably demonstrated in your line about the intelligentsia behaving like a bunch of chavs. The point is they had been trained at some considerable expense not to, so if they did why did they?
They actually did what the manuals said ... they searched the immediate environs ... they phoned the authorities or rather they thought they did. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.0
Wouldn't it be great if we could turn the clock back to 'what might have been' or 'I wish I had done that' or 'I wish I hadn't done that'.
What's done is done and rehashing it ad nauseam does no good for anyone, particularly Madeleine McCann.
Fortunately Scotland Yard and the Polícia Judiciária have managed to progress and are conducting their inquiries in the present day real time which stands a far better chance of helping to find Madeleine than wallowing in the events of 2007 for a favoured pastime of getting the boot right into her parents.
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Why would she be interested in confirming during all that mayhem what time Matt went to phone the police? As far as she knew she already knew the time. That's a ridiculous suggestion IMO - she did have other things on her mind in case you have forgotten Once again you are using hindsight which they didn't have at the time - and also expecting them all to be completely unaffected by what had just happened. So unrealistic IMO.
I know nothing about mobile phones, but IIRC some mobiles only allowed a limited no. of call/messages(?) to be stored and so to make room for new calls at such a time seems sensible to me.
Must go out now.
She was quick to get Dianne to check shutters instead of calling cops. But Smithman was out somewhere then wasn't he?
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I can believe and excuse the parents going into flight rather than fight mode under the circumstances but everyone else too? That does take some believing.
I find it odd, that seemingly in this group of above average highly trained people not one seems to have instinctively known where to start. Like with so many other issues in this case most points of argument are justified on the basis of being able to have ones bun and ones ha'penny when it suits; quite admirably demonstrated in your line about the intelligentsia behaving like a bunch of chavs. The point is they had been trained at some considerable expense not to, so if they did why did they?
You only have to read Matthew's pathetic description of speaking to the receptionist. No insistence, no standing over the guy and saying 'phone the police now!'. I think Brietta's so-called 'chavs' would have done a much better job, they would have had him by the throat in minutes.
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So, is the purpose of this thread simply to criticise the McCanns' friends for not being together enough to insist the police were called immediately, using force if necessary?
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You only have to read Matthew's pathetic description of speaking to the receptionist. No insistence, no standing over the guy and saying 'phone the police now!'. I think Brietta's so-called 'chavs' would have done a much better job, they would have had him by the throat in minutes.
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”.
00.51.10 4078 “Quite quick then?”
Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post476.html#p476
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So, is the purpose of this thread simply to criticise the McCanns' friends for not being together enough to insist the police were called immediately, using force if necessary?
No!
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I do wonder if the papers have some info/source material we are not privy too as i've read the time described as indisputably 10.14 when the police were first contacted. This 10.14 time always quoted should have come from somewhere? I suspect it was the time when OC reception were first approached, but did not in fact call it in till 10.41. Although, the 10.14 and 10:41 is a bit of a coincidence and looks like minutes have simply been reversed. Also, the time in both cases is very specific as if the time is quoted in either case from a spreadsheet or readout and not from a witness who would surely say 10.15.
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I do wonder if the papers have some info/source material we are not privy too as i've read the time described as indisputably 10.14 when the police were first contacted. This 10.14 time always quoted should have come from somewhere? I suspect it was the time when OC reception were first approached, but did not in fact call it in till 10.41.
Here possibly, but what difference does it make to anything now?
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”.
00.51.10 4078 “Quite quick then?”
Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post476.html#p476
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Here possibly, but what difference does it make to anything now?
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”.
00.51.10 4078 “Quite quick then?”
Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post476.html#p476
Nope, It doesn't matter. There you go then the OC staff were reluctant to phone the police immediately. I was more interested in why the papers all report it so. Phone call made to police at 10.14. I think the papers have for whatever reason knocked 30 minutes off the time or reversed the numbers. It's just interesting that they all say this exact time.
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It doesn't matter. There you go then the OC staff were reluctant to phone the police immediately. I was more interested in why the papers all report it so. Phone call made to police at 10.14. I think the papers have for whatever reason knocked 30 minutes off the time or reversed the numbers. It's just interesting that they all say this exact time.
It is possible that one newspaper seeing 10.41 and comparing it with reports of the OC staff being informed at 10.10 ish, assumed that the former timing was back to front ie: 41=14. I believe that would start the ball rolling.
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Yeah that would work. Seems like bad standards though and guesswork? Especially for serious papers I would think. I do suspect that initially one paper uses a figure and the others copy, so it gets repeated and becomes fact.
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I'm happy in the knowledge that the investigating police will know exactly when the calls were made, irrespective of what the media might say.
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Yeah that would work. Seems like bad standards though and guesswork? Especially for serious papers I would think. I do suspect that initially one paper uses a figure and the others copy, so it gets repeated and becomes fact.
That is indeed, how it usually works LP, but apart from blaming one or another for the lateness of calling the police. It is of no importance now IMO
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Important to the police perhaps if the McCanns are being investigated, but largely more important I suspect to current investigators, because the child could have been missing for 1hr+ before they were called. Madeleine could have been 80 miles away by then. Though, from what we have seen all the signs seem to point to a more local connection.
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It is possible that one newspaper seeing 10.41 and comparing it with reports of the OC staff being informed at 10.10 ish, assumed that the former timing was back to front ie: 41=14. I believe that would start the ball rolling.
Correct it is a typing error. 10:41 has changed to 10:14. Matt was told oh no she has probably wandered off when he asked them to call the police. But that doesn't stop them using their phone to call.
At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared. When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
So at around 10:20 only two were seen at 5A - Kate and Fiona. Dianne Webster is now in the Payne's apartment looking after their kids. At around 10:30 Gerry is talking to Pamela Fenn at 5A. Minutes later manager John Hill arrives at 5A and they make their way to main reception to call the police at 10:41.
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Important to the police perhaps if the McCanns are being investigated, but largely more important I suspect to current investigators, because the child could have been missing for 1hr+ before they were called. Madeleine could have been 80 miles away by then. Though, from what we have seen all the signs seem to point to a more local connection.
Where do you get 1hr+ from LP? Matt's statement says 10.10 ish the police were phoned at 10.41 =31 mins difference
The child disappeared(discovered) 10pm police eventually called (after J Hill arrived) 10.41 =41 mins according to phone records.
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Ah no I just mean't Madeleine could feasibly have been an abducted an 1hr+ earlier before police were eventually called. If she was abducted straight after Gerry's check for instance.
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Ah no I just mean't Madeleine could feasibly have been an abducted an 1hr+ earlier before police were eventually called. If she was abducted straight after Gerry's check for instance.
Of course LP. I see what you mean now.
Yes I agree that it was very possibly after 9.30pm, that she disappeared.
I often wonder if JT got muddled (when she saw a man with a child) with her check at 9.15 and the one about 9.40 when she went to take over from Russ who was tending their child. We will never know.
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Important to the police perhaps if the McCanns are being investigated, but largely more important I suspect to current investigators, because the child could have been missing for 1hr+ before they were called. Madeleine could have been 80 miles away by then. Though, from what we have seen all the signs seem to point to a more local connection.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Even at this remove anyone with a modicum of common sense cannot fail to have a bit of an understanding of the panic which must have occurred when Madeleine was found to be gone.
Which shines through in the statements made in the immediate aftermath of the discovery.
I think the initial connection was local as you say ... but I think you are wrong in thinking Madeleine was not well away probably even before her mother found she was missing.
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Please stay on topic and do not disrupt the thread. Thank You
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The police were called at 10.41, why is there any dispute about this?? The only dispute seems to be about whether or not the McCanns and their friends should have called them earlier on the mobile phones and for some to berate them for not doing so, or for not shaking receptionists by the throat until they did so. Again I ask, what purpose does this serve?
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The police were called at 10.41, why is there any dispute about this?? The only dispute seems to be about whether or not the McCanns and their friends should have called them earlier on the mobile phones and for some to berate them for not doing so, or for not shaking receptionists by the throat until they did so. Again I ask, what purpose does this serve?
What would you do if you were certain your child had been abducted through an open window?
1. Would you examine shutters and waste precious time?
OR
2. Would you call the police with your mobile phone to try and apprehend the abductor asap?
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He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Even at this remove anyone with a modicum of common sense cannot fail to have a bit of an understanding of the panic which must have occurred when Madeleine was found to be gone.
Which shines through in the statements made in the immediate aftermath of the discovery.
I think the initial connection was local as you say ... but I think you are wrong in thinking Madeleine was not well away probably even before her mother found she was missing.
Yes that is the possibility that she was well away. Whether she was we can only speculate I suppose... although given the supposed elimination of tannerman; someone going by car makes more sense to me...
I expect had Matt known of the open window then he would have been more forceful. Especially if either of the parents had been there. Empty room, window open, abduction would be my first thought... sickening.
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What would you do if you were certain your child had been abducted through an open window?
1. Would you examine shutters and waste precious time?
OR
2. Would you call the police with your mobile phone to try and apprehend the abductor asap?
Quite right.
I would like to know why they were "tested" at all, seeing as a humungous patio door was left unsecured, and what difference would it have made at all what the point of entry or exit was. Anyone got any ideas on that last point?
Pre-empting police?? That could be construed as a sign of something to hide/meddling.
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The police were called at 10.41, why is there any dispute about this?? The only dispute seems to be about whether or not the McCanns and their friends should have called them earlier on the mobile phones and for some to berate them for not doing so, or for not shaking receptionists by the throat until they did so. Again I ask, what purpose does this serve?
Because the long running Telegraph Online Thingy says it was 10:14? or
Because 10:14 then offers an opportunity to slag off the GNR for delays?
The main issue as has been posted before is: "Did OC/MW have a procedure to follow in the event of notification of a missing child, was the procedure suitable and was it implemented when notified"?
Any discussion relating to the efficacy of the procedure by poorly informed journalistic hacks and internet pundits being largely irrelevant.
It serves no purpose other than to underline the poor argument presented by some that these people were so superior in intellect and ability compared with the average Joe and as a consequence blah blah blah.
They were no different from a lot of people who rarely go abroad except for a holiday.
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Because the long running Telegraph Online Thingy says it was 10:14? or
Because 10:14 then offers an opportunity to slag off the GNR for delays?
The main issue as has been posted before is: "Did OC/MW have a procedure to follow in the event of notification of a missing child, was the procedure suitable and was it implemented when notified"?
Any discussion relating to the efficacy of the procedure by poorly informed journalistic hacks and internet pundits being largely irrelevant.
It serves no purpose other than to underline the poor argument presented by some that these people were so superior in intellect and ability compared with the average Joe and as a consequence blah blah blah.
They were no different from a lot of people who rarely go abroad except for a holiday.
LOL and there was me thinking it served no purpose other than to slag off the McCanns and friends for not calling the police the instant they discovered Madeleine missing (see Pathfinder's post above as an example).
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What would you do if you were certain your child had been abducted through an open window?
1. Would you examine shutters and waste precious time?
OR
2. Would you call the police with your mobile phone to try and apprehend the abductor asap?
How many minutes did Gerry spend examining the shutters? Kate may have felt certain that Madeleine had been abducted but was that the view of them all, at 10pm on the evening of 3rd May? My 3 year old went missing in a public place a few years ago, she could have been abducted but she may have just been separated from us when following us out of a crowded shopping centre (we parents each thought the other had her). Should I have instantly called the police once I knew she wasn't with us, or should I have spent a few minutes looking for her first? As it happens she was found within 3 or 4 minutes, calling the police the instant she disappeared would have been something of an over-reaction, but what if she actually had been abducted - would you be criticising me too?
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LOL and there was me thinking it served no purpose other than to slag off the McCanns and friends for not calling the police the instant they discovered Madeleine missing (see Pathfinder's post above as an example).
No it's saying the police were called almost immediately when patently that is not the case. And by inference and various statements suggesting the police took ages to arrive, (insert lazy,incompetent, tweedles and drums etc etc) when they patently did not.
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Someone thought to get someone to ring the police fairly quickly. The MW missing child protocol was set in motion immediately.
I haven't really followed the the phone records saga.
Wasn't there an earlier call to a GNR mobile number?
And 30 minutes after the alert to the reception the GNR station was alerted.
In the circumstances, running to the reception to alert them seems to have been a sensible course of action. The reception was informed of the emergency, but the point was to find her as fast as possible and she could still have been in the village.
Useless time could have been spent waiting to find someone who spoke English on 112, then having to explain the situation and then, "Your address, please?" "Ocean Club", Praia da Something". "Praia da what?" "Praia da Luz". "Where in the Ocean Club?" "On the corner near the tennis courts and a swimming pool." "Which tennis courts and which swimming pool?"...
Hiow many patrol cars would the GNR have had available at that time of night in pre-peak tourist season? When called, they came as quickly as they could, but it still took time to take notes as to what had happened and all the rest of it. In the meantime, the MW protocol was actually what was in place to look for her.
The parents were convinced that she'd been abducted, but there was always that hope that she'd woken and wandered, or that an abductor had dumped her within the village.
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Someone thought to get someone to ring the police fairly quickly. The MW missing child protocol was set in motion immediately.
I haven't really followed the the phone records saga.
Wasn't there an earlier call to a GNR mobile number?
And 30 minutes after the alert to the reception the GNR station was alerted.
In the circumstances, running to the reception to alert them seems to have been a sensible course of action. The reception was informed of the emergency, but the point was to find her as fast as possible and she could still have been in the village.
Useless time could have been spent waiting to find someone who spoke English on 112, then having to explain the situation and then, "Your address, please?" "Ocean Club", Praia da Something". "Praia da what?" "Praia da Luz". "Where in the Ocean Club?" "On the corner near the tennis courts and a swimming pool." "Which tennis courts and which swimming pool?"...
Hiow many patrol cars would the GNR have had available at that time of night in pre-peak tourist season? When called, they came as quickly as they could, but it still took time to take notes as to what had happened and all the rest of it. In the meantime, the MW protocol was actually what was in place to look for her.
The parents were convinced that she'd been abducted, but there was always that hope that she'd woken and wandered, or that an abductor had dumped her within the village.
If that was the case, it just goes to show that there is a right way of doing things and a wrong way.
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Someone thought to get someone to ring the police fairly quickly. The MW missing child protocol was set in motion immediately.
I haven't really followed the the phone records saga.
Wasn't there an earlier call to a GNR mobile number?
And 30 minutes after the alert to the reception the GNR station was alerted.
No but do feel free to cite
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How many minutes did Gerry spend examining the shutters?
Why examine them in the first place? For what purpose?
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112 operators in Portugal do speak English
http://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-portugal
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112 operators in Portugal do speak English
http://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-portugal
I don't think it was as simple as that Pegasus. There are a couple of reports from witnesses who had problems using the phone because of language difficulties (it was discussed on an earlier thread) and even yet it doesn't appear to be as fail safe as it should be ...
**snip
Many citizens also reported having had language problems: one in ten people had problems in communicating in another language when calling 112 from abroad, despite Member States saying their 112 emergency centres were prepared to deal with the calls at least in English.
http://www.flytap.com/Portugal/en/informations-and-services/single-emergency-number-for-europe
I think the most efficient course of action ... although we now know it was not ... was to have gone to reception and used the native speaker there to relay an emergency call to the authorities.
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The point being none of the tapas 9 even tried
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The point being none of the tapas 9 even tried
They decided to go to Reception instead - where they knew staff spoke English as well as Portuguese - who knew the number to ring and who could phone the police with no possibility of the language barrier being a problem. Also had they not done that then the Missing child procedure would not have been put into operation as quickly as it was.
PS
( Thank you mercury for that info on another thread about the investigation into the Leic. police officer)
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They decided to go to Reception instead - where they knew staff spoke English as well as Portuguese - who knew the number to ring and who could phone the police with no possibility of the language barrier being a problem. Also had they not done that then the Missing child procedure would not have been put into operation as quickly as it was.
PS
( Thank you mercury for that info on another thread about the investigation into the Leic. police officer)
I can see no connection between the two? Matthew went to reception. Amy Tierney phoned Lyndsey from the night creche because a parent told her people had lost a child.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
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Evening creche is located in same building, above 24-hour reception.
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I can see no connection between the two? Matthew went to reception. Amy Tierney phoned Lyndsey from the night creche because a parent told her people had lost a child.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
There were presumably several people trying to get the word out that she'd disappeared. The parent who told Amy must have heard it from someone.
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Evening creche is located in same building, above 24-hour reception.
I'm aware of that, but the missing child procedure wasn't connected to any of the Tapas group as far as we know. It was begun by Lyndsey following a call from Amy who heard it from a mother collecting a child. We haven't been told how the mother knew or who she was.
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I can see no connection between the two? Matthew went to reception. Amy Tierney phoned Lyndsey from the night creche because a parent told her people had lost a child.
She indicates that on May 3rd 2007, at around 10.20pm, she was informed by her colleague Amy T. that Madeleine McCann had disappeared. At that, she immediately launched the "missing child" procedure.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LYNSAY-JAYNE.htm
I see what youre saying but there were loads of englsh speaking people around them aT the time, ino would have been first port of call rather than running to the reception area mikes away so to speak
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I see what youre saying but there were loads of englsh speaking people around them aT the time, ino would have been first port of call rather than running to the reception area mikes away so to speak
Maybe the reason for going to reception was things together? To notify the holiday company and to notify police. ETA also to search the route between 5A and lobsters a route the child knew. Three things together.
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Maybe the reason for going to reception was things together? To notify the holiday company and to notify police. ETA also to search the route between 5A and lobsters a route the child knew. Three things together.
Err no
You dont decide to go to an english speaking centre because en route you will have the opportunity of looking for a missing child "as well"
you go there if there is no alternative
there were many alternatives before that
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Err no
You dont decide to go to an english speaking centre because en route you will have the opportunity of looking for a missing child "as well"
you go there if there is no alternative
there were many alternatives before that
Yes even if they didn't know 112 they could have simply asked anyone to phone police.
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Yes even if they didn't know 112 they could have simply asked anyone to phone police.
exactly which makes it sad we are even having this conversation, fact remains no one ensured police were called before 10.41 that night, thats 40 minutes after an assured abduction! well, more in reality if the mccanns assert she was "taken" at 9.15
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I see what youre saying but there were loads of englsh speaking people around them aT the time, ino would have been first port of call rather than running to the reception area mikes away so to speak
Oh come off it mercury running to the reception area was what most people would do.
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exactly which makes it sad we are even having this conversation, fact remains no one ensured police were called before 10.41 that night, thats 40 minutes after an assured abduction! well, more in reality if the mccanns assert she was "taken" at 9.15
Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it, in the middle of the absolute terror of not being able to find your child, after asking Matt to call the police, screaming with frustration they are going to think 'did the reception call the police?' I believe the OC manager asked them to be called again.
Stop trying to blame the parents.
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it, in the middle of the absolute terror of not being able to find your child, after asking Matt to call the police, screaming with frustration they are going to think 'did the reception call the police?' I believe the OC manager asked them to be called again.
Stop trying to blame the parents.
We're back to the..... ''If the parents didn't do exactly what I would have done in their circumstances - then they are wrong because I know far better than they do'' argument.
Unless they have been in those same circumstances themselves - they don't know how they would react - they only think they do. IMo
So easy to pass judgement on others from the comfort of your own home and with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
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We're back to the..... ''If the parents didn't do exactly what I would have done in their circumstances - then they are wrong because I know far better than they do'' argument.
Unless they have been in those same circumstances themselves - they don't know how they would react - they only think they do. IMo
So easy to pass judgement on others from the comfort of your own home and with the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
Crime unknown.
The mccanns didn't take proper care of their children.
So if someone drove too fast in poor driving conditions and had an accident, which resulted in injury or worse, what then of hindsight ?
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it, in the middle of the absolute terror of not being able to find your child, after asking Matt to call the police, screaming with frustration they are going to think 'did the reception call the police?' I believe the OC manager asked them to be called again.
Stop trying to blame the parents.
Of course the parents didn't ask anyone to phone the police, Fiona Payne asked Matthew to do it.
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Crime unknown.
The mccanns didn't take proper care of their children.
So if someone drove too fast in poor driving conditions and had an accident, which resulted in injury or worse, what then of hindsight ?
Tell me what that has to do with whether the McCann's or friends ran to the Reception to ask them to ring the police, and then not checking that they had? Nothing as far as I can see, just another opportunity taken by you to repeat your mantra.
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Tell me what that has to do with whether the McCann's or friends ran to the Reception to ask them to ring the police, and then not checking that they had? Nothing as far as I can see, just another opportunity taken by you to repeat your mantra.
The mantra was in your previous reply.
There was no excuse for not ringing the police immediately.
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Of course the parents didn't ask anyone to phone the police, Fiona Payne asked Matthew to do it.
Gerry McCann states that he asked Mathew in his statement of the 10th May.
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The mantra was in your previous reply.
There was no excuse for not ringing the police immediately.
No, there was no mantra in my post.
They did ask reception to call the police and soon as it was obvious Madeleine was not there, you are so full of what they should or shouldn't have done, typical of someone who hasn't a clue of how the parents were feeling at the time and unable to understand.
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No, there was no mantra in my post.
They did ask reception to call the police and soon as it was obvious Madeleine was not there, you are so full of what they should or shouldn't have done, typical of someone who hasn't a clue of how the parents were feeling at the time and unable to understand.
Typcal ???
The crime is undetermined and you can't get away from that ?
Why do the mccanns deserve sympathy for something they were responsible for ?
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Typcal ???
The crime is undetermined and you can't get away from that ?
Why do the mccas deserve sympathy for something they were responsible for ?
Here you go again, save it Stephen, I'm not getting into a discussion of the McCann's leaving the children AGAIN it's the only subject you seem to want to talk about, you bore me.
The fact that they don't get your sympathy is something that they no doubt don't give a toss about, they care about getting Madeleine back.
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Here you go again, save it Stephen, I'm not getting into a discussion of the McCann's leaving the children AGAIN it's the only subject you seem to want to talk about, you bore me.
The fact that they don't get your sympathy is something that they no doubt don't give a toss about, they care about getting Madeleine back.
What makes you think Madeleine will return ?
You appear to believe in fairy tales.
It is Madeleine who deserves sympathy.
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Gerry McCann states that he asked Mathew in his statement of the 10th May.
Fiona and Matthew thought it was Fiona who asked Matthew (rogatory interviews). Who knows? Clearly none of them are sure.
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Fiona and Matthew thought it was Fiona who asked Matthew (rogatory interviews). Who knows? Clearly none of them are sure.
Correct neither said it was Gerry. The only statements supporting Gerry's whereabouts is when Dianne returned the second time to 5A and Balu/Berry missing statements. We know he was talking to Pamela Fenn at around 10:30.
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Correct neither said it was Gerry. The only statements supporting Gerry's whereabouts is when Dianne returned the second time to 5A and Balu/Berry missing statements. We know he was talking to Pamela Fenn at around 10:30.
Could be Fiona mentioned calling the police to Mathew and Gerry said 'yes call the police' or something, it doesn't really matter, the fact is that Mathew did go to reception to ask them to call the police.
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Could be Fiona mentioned calling the police to Mathew and Gerry said 'yes call the police' or something, it doesn't really matter, the fact is that Mathew did go to reception to ask them to call the police.
It does matter. All of their whereabouts matter.
I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know, at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm, and everybody was just running around like sort of headless chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I mean, I don't know why I said that but I think I'd just read too many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we're just going to find her and she's going to be there, but, you know, she's like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn't really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Oh come off it mercury running to the reception area was what most people would do.
Oh, right , if you say so
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It does matter. All of their whereabouts matter.
I just remember being behind Dave as he was, and Gerry, as they were running, erm, Russell I think (inaudible) a bit behind and so we all ran. If you ask whether we went, you know, into the apartment and I'm almost a hundred percent sure we didn't go to the apartment, we were, because it was just so awful, so Gerry and Kate and maybe Dave, I'm not sure, but went sort of to the bottom of the steps and they sort of went in, erm, and as soon as they sort of said, you know, she's gone and everything, all hell broke loose, we went round to check firstly on Grace to make sure she was okay and we dropped Rachael up there, telling her that she wasn't to move, Jane came out of the apartment, did she come out of the apartment at that point or was it later in the evening, I can't remember, but I remember seeing them, you know, most of the time and then for the rest of the evening they were stood, you know, at the doorways to the apartments, erm, we went back round, erm, and everybody was just running around like sort of headless chickens, so I remember saying, you know, we need a plan, I mean, I don't know why I said that but I think I'd just read too many novels, because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we're just going to find her and she's going to be there, but, you know, she's like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn't really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
In her statement Fiona says she told Mathew to phone the police and that she was going to go to Kate and Gerry's apartment, she said 'Gerry had come down by then' so it is possible that he heard her say that to Mathew and said 'yes go and call the police' Fiona said Gerry was in and out of the apartment all the time.
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Why would anyone take any notice of Fiona Payne the queen of yeah, was monday tuesday wednesday or friday, how helpful was she? as helpful as a pork chop in a synagogue
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In her statement Fiona says she told Mathew to phone the police and that she was going to go to Kate and Gerry's apartment, she said 'Gerry had come down by then' so it is possible that he heard her say that to Mathew and said 'yes go and call the police' Fiona said Gerry was in and out of the apartment all the time.
Matt didn't see Gerry at that time. After Fiona sent Matt on his way she went to see Kate in 5A and only Kate was present no Gerry so I don't know what's she's going on about. When Emma Knight arrived around 10:20 only Kate and Fiona were present at 5A.
He either came down as she was going to 5A or around this time she saw him when he was talking to Balu/Berry at around 10:15 but their first statements were not released.
At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
1485
'And''
Reply
'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
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Matt didn't see Gerry at that time. After Fiona sent Matt on his way she went to see Kate in 5A and only Kate was present no Gerry so I don't know what's she's going on about. When Emma Knight arrived around 10:20 only Kate and Fiona were present at 5A.
He either came down as she was going to 5A or around this time she saw him when he was talking to Balu/Berry at around 10:15 but their first statements were not released.
At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd. Erm, we were trying to ascertain whether Madeleine could have got out, and I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy, and I was almost trying to convince Kate that she could have opened the shutter and climbed out, although knowing that wasn't a likely thing, but at that point we were just trying to pacify Kate in that Madeleine was going to be alright. Erm, and I, I think I touched the webbing in that room, but because Sean and Amelie were asleep, I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
1485
'And''
Reply
'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Pfinder, I am unable to find any reference to the time that Gerry was seen talking to Raj and Neil being 10.15.
Would you be so kind as to point to where it said 10.15? Cos, I seem to remember 10.00 or 10.05
Thanks ever so
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Pfinder, I am unable to find any reference to the time that Gerry was seen talking to Raj and Neil being 10.15.
Would you be so kind as to point to where it said 10.15? Cos, I seem to remember 10.00 or 10.05
Thanks ever so
He wasn't with the others was he? They were all searching around 5A. Gerry said he went to the reception/creche but nobody saw him at that time. And Matt didn't leave until that time and didn't see him (Fiona sent him not what the book says). Balu/Berry were near to 5A so the time doesn't fit until around 10:15 after Matt left and before Fiona goes to 5A and finds Kate alone. Emma arrives at 10:20 and still they are both alone. I think it's says AFTER 10pm in the statement so it's very vague until we see their first statements.
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He wasn't with the others was he? They were all searching around 5A. Gerry said he went to the reception/creche but nobody saw him at that time. And Matt didn't leave until that time and didn't see him. Balu/Berry were near to 5A so the time doesn't fit until around 10:15 after Matt left and before Fiona goes to 5A and finds Kate alone. Emma arrives at 10:20 and still they are both alone. I think it's says AFTER 10pm in the statement so it's very vague until we see their first statements.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm
From 22.00 onwards all the events that took place were already described in my previous statement of 7th May 2007 and i cannot add any further information, other than that which was already added.
No mention of 10.15 that I can see. So you are embroidering it a little ... kinda making it up a bit, then?
So that it becomes a myth?
To shoe-horn it into your theory?
Lets' have facts Pfinder. Please.
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@Sadie Do you think this happened before or after 10.15pm?
"Gerald was seen and spoken to by NB and RB. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on N's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
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@Sadie Do you think this happened before or after 10.15pm?
"Gerald was seen and spoken to by NB and RB. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on N's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BRIGADE-OF-INFORMATION.htm
I have no idea pegasus .... and I see no reason to speculate.
Do you?
Altho upon thinking about it, it seems that Gerry was rather tied up in despair and things other than searching later on ... such as visiting the Reception, dealing with John Hill and maybe others who I have forgtten, and the GNR and PJ later on.
So it is likely thta it was earlier, rather than later, IMO.
But it is only speculation and not fact. I know that I could well be wrong.
I will be quite frank :
I find the fact that Neil Berrys and Raj Balus early statements are being hidden rather alarming.
I wonder why they are missing.
They could have saved Gerry all this speculation against him.
Likewise they could have gone against what Amaral and many on your side are spouting.
Perhaps Amaral did not want them "out". Perhaps such quality witnesses would have blown his theory?
Dunno
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Raj Balu and Berrys statements are NOT being hidden
There are dozens of interviews conducted by the Leicester police which arent in the files for some reason, but it certainly isnt because Amaral decided so, sheesh
Get over your conspiratorial hatred woman!
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@Sadie. Yes earlier than 10.15pm IMO.
BTW MO walked directly past NB/RB balcony on way to reception to request police call.
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Could be Fiona mentioned calling the police to Mathew and Gerry said 'yes call the police' or something, it doesn't really matter, the fact is that Mathew did go to reception to ask them to call the police.
The fact is that he said he did and Fiona and Gerry confirmed it. The receptionist didn't confirm it. He never mentioned a visit from Matt.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
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Could be Fiona mentioned calling the police to Mathew and Gerry said 'yes call the police' or something, it doesn't really matter, the fact is that Mathew did go to reception to ask them to call the police.
It could well be something like that Lace. Some folk seem to believe that the only words uttered by anyone that night are the ones in the files. In reality they are only a fraction IMO.
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@Sadie. Yes earlier than 10.15pm IMO.
BTW MO walked directly past NB/RB balcony on way to reception to request police call.
What time did Berry/Balu join in the search? The missing child procedures didn't start until 10:17? They weren't searching with the others at that time. It was definitely AFTER 10pm. So I put it at around 10:15 at the earliest.
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Raj Balu and Berrys statements are NOT being hidden
There are dozens of interviews conducted by the Leicester police which arent in the files for some reason, but it certainly isnt because Amaral decided so, sheesh
Get over your conspiratorial hatred woman!
Raj Balu and Neil Berry each have their initial statements missing.
One of the Carpenters also has his statement missingh IIRC.
These three statements could have likely proved that Gerry WAS searching from the early minutes. They could also have proved that Amarals theory was LACKING, because if Gerry was talking to Neil and Raj immediately or almost immediately after the [Kates] alert, then he could not be down by the Smiths carrying Madeleine to hide her.
Those three statements are extremely important to prove the lie of Amarals Theory (and PFinders).... and they are missing !!!
So strange that only a VERY FEW statements are missing, and ALL THREE of the important ones to prove Gerrys innocence have gone.
No doubt, SY will have interviewed Raj and Neil again, so THEY will know the truth anyway.
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Raj Balu and Neil Berry each have their initial statements missing.
One of the Carpenters also has his statement missingh IIRC.
These three statements could have likely proved that Gerry WAS searching from the early minutes. They could also have proved that Amarals theory was LACKING, because if Gerry was talking to Neil and Raj immediately or almost immediately after the [Kates] alert, then he could not be down by the Smiths carrying Madeleine to hide her.
Those three statements are extremely important to prove the lie of Amarals Theory (and PFinders).... and they are missing !!!
So strange that only a VERY FEW statements are missing, and ALL THREE of the important ones to prove Gerrys innocence have gone.
No doubt, SY will have interviewed Raj and Neil again, so THEY will know the truth anyway.
Are you blaming Amaral again ?
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Raj Balu and Neil Berry each have their initial statements missing.
One of the Carpenters also has his statement missingh IIRC.
These three statements could have likely proved that Gerry WAS searching from the early minutes. They could also have proved that Amarals theory was LACKING, because if Gerry was talking to Neil and Raj immediately or almost immediately after the [Kates] alert, then he could not be down by the Smiths carrying Madeleine to hide her.
Those three statements are extremely important to prove the lie of Amarals Theory (and PFinders).... and they are missing !!!
So strange that only a VERY FEW statements are missing, and ALL THREE of the important ones to prove Gerrys innocence have gone.
No doubt, SY will have interviewed Raj and Neil again, so THEY will know the truth anyway.
The statements are not MISSING any more than any other statements given to the Leicester Police and not included in the PJ files released
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Raj Balu and Neil Berry each have their initial statements missing.
One of the Carpenters also has his statement missingh IIRC.
These three statements could have likely proved that Gerry WAS searching from the early minutes. They could also have proved that Amarals theory was LACKING, because if Gerry was talking to Neil and Raj immediately or almost immediately after the [Kates] alert, then he could not be down by the Smiths carrying Madeleine to hide her.
Those three statements are extremely important to prove the lie of Amarals Theory (and PFinders).... and they are missing !!!
So strange that only a VERY FEW statements are missing, and ALL THREE of the important ones to prove Gerrys innocence have gone.
No doubt, SY will have interviewed Raj and Neil again, so THEY will know the truth anyway.
Here's a bit of info;
After 22:00 R. R. S. B. and his wife were still sitting on the veranda in the B. family apartment. They heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. Gerald was seen and spoken to by N.B. and R.R.S.B. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on N.B.'s balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
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Here's a bit of info;
After 22:00 R. R. S. B. and his wife were still sitting on the veranda in the B. family apartment. They heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. Gerald was seen and spoken to by N.B. and R.R.S.B. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on N.B.'s balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
Who is the author of ... The Timeline Theory?
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Who is the author of ... The Timeline Theory?
Its not a "theory "but a summary of FACTS FROM the PJ files..and....if you read the link the first thing you will have come across is who wrote it!
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Its not a "theory "but a summary of FACTS FROM the PJ files..and....if you read the link the first thing you will have come across is who wrote it!
Then why is it headed ... TIME LINE THEORY?
I'm not really interested in who the translator was ... more in who the author was? ... do you have any idea?
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Then why is it headed ... TIME LINE THEORY?
I'm not really interested in who the translator was ... more in who the author was? ... do you have any idea?
Where does it say anywhere it is a theory? The author is Kazlux and there is no translation involved, its a summary of various peoples statements timewise.
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sorted now Brie?
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After 22:00 R. R. S. B. and his wife were still sitting on the veranda in the B. family apartment. They heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. Gerald was seen and spoken to by N.B. and R.R.S.B. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on N.B.'s balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm
GM was the very first searcher heard/seen by NB and RB from 606 balcony.
MO's route to reception went straight under 606 balcony.
Therefore they heard/saw GM before MO went to reception.
(Otherwise MO, not GM, would have been the first searcher they heard/saw)
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GM was the very first searcher heard/seen by NB and RB from 606 balcony.
MO's route to reception went straight under 606 balcony.
Therefore they heard/saw GM before MO went to reception.
(Otherwise MO, not GM, would have been the first searcher they heard/saw)
As it was dark and they were probably talking MO could have run past and they wouldn't have seen him unless he was shouting. They noticed Gerald because he was calling out.
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As it was dark and they were probably talking MO could have run past and they wouldn't have seen him unless he was shouting. They noticed Gerald because he was calling out.
MO on way to reception can hear and see 606 balcony because he passes within a few metres of it.
If NB and RB had still been on balcony then MO would have shouted up to them have you seen a girl.
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MO on way to reception can hear and see 606 balcony because he passes within a few metres of it.
If NB and RB had still been on balcony then MO would have shouted up to them have you seen a girl.
If they were there and if he saw them he may have, he may not have. He was on a mission allegedly. Truth is we don't know if he ever went to reception, he wasn't mentioned by the receptionist.
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Are you blaming Amaral again ?
I blame who ever was responsible for witholding such important documents, Stephen
But in all truth, Amaral had the most to gain by witholding them, dont you agree?
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MO on way to reception can hear and see 606 balcony because he passes within a few metres of it.
If NB and RB had still been on balcony then MO would have shouted up to them have you seen a girl.
Gerry must have got their first. Strange. Got any statements to back Gerry's statement of going to reception straight away? Only Kate stayed in the apartment.
--- When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Just after ten past ten, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club’s twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. (Madeleine)
Don't worry it gets better.
At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. (Madeleine)
He has asked Matt twice to go now.
So what is Gerry going on about going to reception and told Kate to stay in the apartment?
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Gerry must have got their first. Strange. Got any statements to back his statement? Only Kate stayed in the apartment.
--- When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way.
While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Just after ten past ten, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club’s twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. (Madeleine)
Don't worry it gets better.
At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. (Madeleine)
He has asked Matt twice to go now.
So what is Gerry going on about going to reception and told Kate to stay in the apartment &%+((£
Why are you making a meal of the poor mans distress?
1. In all probability he was saying he was going to reception quite early on, but was assured that Matt had already gone.
2. When after a decent period, no police arrived, he would be beyond himself with anxiety so Matt was asked to go again
3. Still no police arrived, so all of a dither, he went on his own
It is all so simple Pfinder. I cant understand why you are unable to fathom it out. Remember this was over a period of 40 odd minutes IIRC .
Are you sure that you are not just trying to put the boot in? Criticism for criticisms sake, cos Gerry is a Mccann?
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Why are you making a meal of the poor mans distress?
1. In all probability he was saying he was going to reception quite early on, but was assured that Matt had already gone.
2. When after a decent period, no police arrived, he would be beyond himself with anxiety so Matt was asked to go again
3. Still no police arrived, so all of a dither, he went on his own
It is all so simple Pfinder. I cant understand why you are unable to fathom it out. Remember this was over a period of 40 odd minutes IIRC .
Are you sure that you are not just trying to put the boot in? Criticism for criticisms sake, cos Gerry is a Mccann?
This interview was in September months later and it doesn't add up. Matt said Fiona asked him and she confirmed it. And he would have demanded they call if he went there. No statements back up him being at main reception until Manager John Hill was present at 10:40. He asked Kate to stay in the apartment and he went to reception &%+((£
40 minutes is not quick in an emergency Sadie. Doctors know speed is required in an emergency. If you go to reception you go straight away. If he wasn't in the apartment and wasn't at reception he was somewhere else.
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This interview was in September months later and it doesn't add up. Matt said Fiona asked him and she confirmed it. And he would have demanded they call if he went there. No statements back up going there until John Hill was there at 10:40. This is before Balu/Berry sighting. He asked Kate to stay in the apartment and he went to reception &%+((£
Here you go again Pfinder, putting times on the Balu/Berry chat with Gerry.
WILL YOU KINDLY STOP IT
YOU dont know the time they chatted with Gerry and neither do we.
You are just trying to plant another myth about the time, I do believe. Let's stick to the truth. FACTS.
Simply to progress your strange unlikely hypothesis?
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Here you go again Pfinder, putting times on the Balu/Berry chat with Gerry.
WILL YOU KINDLY STOP IT
YOU dont know the time they chatted with Gerry and neither do we.
You are just trying to plant another myth about the time, I do believe. Let's stick to the truth. FACTS.
Simply to progress your strange unlikely hypothesis?
Balu/Berry were drinking on their balcony not checking the time.
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This interview was in September months later and it doesn't add up. Matt said Fiona asked him and she confirmed it. And he would have demanded they call if he went there. No statements back up him being at main reception until Manager John Hill was present at 10:40. He asked Kate to stay in the apartment and he went to reception &%+((£
40 minutes is not quick Sadie. If you go to reception you go straight away. If he wasn't in the apartment and he wasn't at reception then he somewhere else.
How do you KNOW that he would have demanded they call if he [Matt] went there ? You dont.
As I said in my previous post, Gerry believed that as Matt had been to reception early on, the Police would soon arrive. After what seemed like a long delay, you say that he sent Matt again. You may be right on that, but I cant remember it.
And , yes he did meet John Hill at about 10.40pm at reception IIRC.
In the meantime, he ran around searching, spoke with Raj and Neil Berry, returning to 5a to check if Madeleine had returned and to comfort Kate. Also IIRC to speak with the customer relations lady and to despair.
Poor bloke would have been like a wrung out dish cloth with all his anxiety. Why do you keep on trying to change times and facts to blame him
.... and to fit him into your [sorry] phoney theory
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How do you KNOW that he would have demanded they call if he [Matt] went there ? You dont.
As I said in my previous post, Gerry believed that as Matt had been to reception early on, the Police would soon arrive. After what seemed like a long delay, you say that he sent Matt again. You may be right on that, but I cant remember it.
And , yes he did meet John Hill at about 10.40pm at reception IIRC.
In the meantime, he ran around searching, spoke with Raj and Neil Berry, returning to 5a to check if Madeleine had returned and to comfort Kate. Also IIRC to speak with the customer relations lady and to despair.
Poor bloke would have been like a wrung out dish cloth with all his anxiety. Why do you keep on trying to change times and facts to blame him
.... and to fit him into your [sorry] phoney theory
Gerry said in response to why they both stayed in the apartment whilst the others were searching. He said it wasn't like that. He told Kate to stay in the apartment and he went to reception. This was in September and that doesn't mean 40 minutes later.
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Balu/Berry were drinking on their balcony not checking the time.
They were likely having a drink on the balcony, yes.
How do YOU know that they were NOT checking the time? You DONT
The statements that they gave, have both gone missing.
Now that is the interesting thing to me.
Both the statements that might have disproved Amarals theory HAVE GONE MISSING.
BOTH of them
.... and also IIRC, one of the Carpenter statements has gone missing too !!!!
I wonder what SY make of that?
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Gerry said in response to why they both stayed in the apartment whilst the others were searching. He said it wasn't like that. He told Kate to stay in the apartment and he went to reception. This was in September and that doesn't mean 40 minutes later.
You DONT KNOW what he means. And you are linking things in a way that they should not be linked, out of order and missing relevant times.
Please stop making it up.
Remember, SY will know if Gerry searched, where and when ... and they believe both Mccanns innocent. Doesn't that tell you something?
Cheers
Nigh Night Pfinder.
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They were likely having a drink on the balcony, yes.
How do YOU know that they were NOT checking the time? You DONT
The statements that they gave, have both gone missing.
Now that is the interesting thing to me.
Both the statements that might have disproved Amarals theory HAVE GONE MISSING.
BOTH of them
.... and also IIRC, one of the Carpenter statements has gone missing too !!!!
I wonder what SY make of that?
But Sadie do you realise that the three statements you talk of (by C Carpenter and N Berry and R Balu) were all taken in England by English police forces?
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But Sadie do you realise that the three statements you talk of (by C Carpenter and N Berry and R Balu) were all taken in England by English police forces?
Interesting. No mention of hearing Gerry calling in Balu's rogatory. I would who the people conversing were, and what was interesting about the 'paper'.
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
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But Sadie do you realise that the three statements you talk of (by C Carpenter and N Berry and R Balu) were all taken in England by English police forces?
That's news to me.
No-one has ever claimed that before ... and I have breached this topic several times. You have been on forum at those times.
How come you never made this claim before?
And where do you get that info from? Citation please.
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Neil and I stayed at the bar drinking and talking with J*** J***** and A*** W******. Neil and I eventually left the bar after 19:00. (Raj Balu)
So they were out early drinking.
Annie Wiltshire and her sister Jayne Jensen.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504950/British-witnesses-We-saw-blond-men-balcony-Madeleine-apartment.html
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Interesting. No mention of hearing Gerry calling in Balu's rogatory. I would who the people conversing were, and what was interesting about the 'paper'.
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment. We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared. My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
Thanks for the reminder. A paper was used so it sounds like the search wasn't that disorganised when they joined. Past the headless chickens routine of the initial searches. After 10 could mean any time if they weren't sure of the exact time. They had started drinking before 7pm.
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That's news to me.
No-one has ever claimed that before ... and I have breached this topic several times. You have been on forum at those times.
How come you never made this claim before?
And where do you get that info from? Citation please.
All three left PDL on 5th May 2007 as did many on the one week booking beginning 28 April. Ref is made to statements given in the UK in the rogatory letters of request and the interviews themselves. See Raj Balu's rogatory interview e.g. referring to his 6th May 2007 statement to British police.
Their 2007 statements just aren't included in the PJ files, as aren't plenty of others undertaken in the UK in May 2007. (Most probably on request by Leicester Police). No mystery or cloak and dagger shenanigans going on here.IMO.
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Thanks for the reminder. A paper was used so it sounds like the search wasn't that disorganised when they joined. Past the headless chickens routine of the initial searches. After 10 could mean any time if they weren't sure of the exact time. They had started drinking before 7pm.
The Mark Warner missing child procedure handed out leaflets with locations to search on them. when that area had been searched people took the leaflet back and were given a new one. The missing child procedure wasn't begun until after 10.20pm, so if the 'paper' was issued by Mark Warner as part of the search procedure they were given it after 10.20pm;
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
This procedure involved the distribution of leaflets that had already been prepared, with the names of the locations, for the members of staff, indicating the zones that they should search. Once the location indicated had been searched, the leaflet was returned and another one with a different location was handed over. This procedure was followed by the members of staff, but on that night about 6 residents from the complex were also involved in the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
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The thing to remember is Kate KNEW right away that Maddie had been abducted from evidence of open shutters and window and blowing curtains and maddie missing from her bed. ( if you believe that). Rather than shout from the balcony ( because they were like sitting in their garden like and could see the apartment) again if you believe that, Kate could have shouted Maddie has been abducted please help and someone call the police... now again, this story just comes to pieces when looked at more closely, which the PJ did.
1. Kate did not know right away that Maddie was 'abducted' because she checked the flat to see if she was in another room BEFORE she then ran out to the; nowere near like a garden, and did not have a clear view of any comings and goings to that apartment, to tell every one Maddie was missing!
2. People started looking for a missing girl- who may have wandred...
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The thing to remember is Kate KNEW right away that Maddie had been abducted from evidence of open shutters and window and blowing curtains and maddie missing from her bed. ( if you believe that). Rather than shout from the balcony ( because they were like sitting in their garden like and could see the apartment) again if you believe that, Kate could have shouted Maddie has been abducted please help and someone call the police... now again, this story just comes to pieces when looked at more closely, which the PJ did.
1. Kate did not know right away that Maddie was 'abducted' because she checked the flat to see if she was in another room BEFORE she then ran out to the; nowere near like a garden, and did not have a clear view of any comings and goings to that apartment, to tell every one Maddie was missing!
2. People started looking for a missing girl- who may have wandred...
Whar ARE YOU going on about Mistaken?
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The Mark Warner missing child procedure handed out leaflets with locations to search on them. when that area had been searched people took the leaflet back and were given a new one. The missing child procedure wasn't begun until after 10.20pm, so if the 'paper' was issued by Mark Warner as part of the search procedure they were given it after 10.20pm;
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group of colleagues at 22.30 to go out. At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
This procedure involved the distribution of leaflets that had already been prepared, with the names of the locations, for the members of staff, indicating the zones that they should search. Once the location indicated had been searched, the leaflet was returned and another one with a different location was handed over. This procedure was followed by the members of staff, but on that night about 6 residents from the complex were also involved in the search.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Thank you for the information so search papers handed out after 10:20. I knew Balu/Berry didn't meet Gerry until much later than 10pm. That is Sadie's alibi for Gerry but it's not. Nobody knows where he was after he told them to split up and search! We will find out where he was and at what time if this case is solved.
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Whar ARE YOU going on about Mistaken?
Oh just breaking down a story about how a woman claims to have known instantly her daughter was abducted but didn't act like it.
1. because she was looking for her in the flat?
2. she ran out of the apartment to get help?
3 she did not phone the police or ask anyone who spoke portugese to phone the police as soon as she KNEW, whch was instantly...apparently.
Better?
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Oh just breaking down a story about how a woman claims to have known instantly her daughter was abducted but didn't act like it.
1. because she was looking for her in the flat?
2. she ran out of the apartment to get help?
3 she did not phone the police or ask anyone who spoke portugese to phone the police as soon as she KNEW, whch was instantly...apparently.
Better?
What? In the max five minutes before she ran for help. During which she hoped she was wrong.
Who do you think she is, Speedy Goncalo?
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What? In the max five minutes before she ran for help. During which she hoped she was wrong.
Who do you think she is, Speedy Goncalo?
*&*%£
I love your wit!
well she did say it took her only a few seconds to leave the room and reach the Tapas. I think 19 seconds was mentioned but hey I am not an olympic track ref.
The fact is...she could have run into the tapas bar shouted blah blah and scream someone call the police Maddie has been abducted....but she didn't. because she was UNSURE, which is quite the opposite of KNEW INSTANTLY-jemmied shutters-open window-blowing whoosing curtains..being cited as her reason for knowing.
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*&*%£
I love your wit!
well she did say it took her only a few seconds to leave the room and reach the Tapas. I think 19 seconds was mentioned but hey I am not an olympic track ref.
The fact is...she could have run into the tapas bar shouted blah blah and scream someone call the police Maddie has been abducted....but she didn't. because she was UNSURE, which is quite the opposite of KNEW INSTANTLY-jemmied shutters-open window-blowing whoosing curtains..being cited as her reason for knowing.
Looking at the bed, my first question might have been 'Did we really put her in that bed?' It didn't look like anyone had been in it, unlike the bed under the window.
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Thank you for the information so search papers handed out after 10:20. I knew Balu/Berry didn't meet Gerry until much later than 10pm. That is Sadie's alibi for Gerry but it's not. Nobody knows where he was after he told them to split up and search! We will find out where he was and at what time if this case is solved.
FGS, Pfinder, why are you twisting the facts?
What have search papers handed out at 10.20 got to do with the time that Gerry talked with Raj Balu and Neil Berry?
If I hadn't just read I would not have believed that anyone could have tried such a deception. Unless you are so naive ... but this "naivity" is all the time ! 8)-)))
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FGS, Pfinder, why are you twisting the facts?
What have search papers handed out at 10.20 got to do with the time that Gerry talked with Raj Balu and Neil Berry?
If I hadn't just read I would not have believed that anyone could have tried such a deception. Unless you are so naive ... but this "naivity" is all the time ! 8)-)))
The men and Fiona had first split up to search before Balu/Berry knew about the missing child. The Smithman sighting happened when only the men and Fiona were first out searching. They went down as far as Baptista supermarket in those initial searches before they reconvened (not Gerry) so Fiona sent Matt to call the police at 10:05-10:10.
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FGS, Pfinder, why are you twisting the facts?
What have search papers handed out at 10.20 got to do with the time that Gerry talked with Raj Balu and Neil Berry?
If I hadn't just read I would not have believed that anyone could have tried such a deception. Unless you are so naive ... but this "naivity" is all the time ! 8)-)))
Quote from: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 07:37:30 AM
Interesting. No mention of hearing Gerry calling in Balu's rogatory.
I would who the people conversing were, and what was interesting about the 'paper'.
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment.
We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared.
My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
end Quote
The inventiveness of those who wish to hang on in there and keep the myth going that Dr Gerald McCann was the man identified by Martin Smith ... bearing in mind Martin Smith no longer thinks so ... and Mr McCluskey whose description was mirrored word for word by Mr Smith was certainly wrong ... is truly remarkable.
I think there are interesting points to take from PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm but they are not the absolutely arbitrary timing of when they may have retrieved a paper containing the MW search procedures ... even if that is what they were discussing and that certainly is not made clear ... and the ridiculous attempt to use it to "time" Dr McCann's whereabouts.
Ten out of ten for inventiveness there ... minus ten for "interpretation".
Of interest as well is the fact the original statements are missing from the files and the ones we are using were taken a year after the event when some information may not have been remembered well.
Shining has summed it up quite well on her blog ... but whatever ... she certainly makes it all a lot more interesting than constant myopic attempts to set in tablets of stone another ridiculous theory, disowned by its author and disregarded by the investigation.
Enjoy some background reading here ...
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/textusa-v-neil-berry-and-raj-balu-continued/
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Quote from: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 07:37:30 AM
Interesting. No mention of hearing Gerry calling in Balu's rogatory.
I would who the people conversing were, and what was interesting about the 'paper'.
After 22:00 we were still sitting on the veranda in the Berry apartment.
We heard noises downstairs and afterwards found out that a child had disappeared.
My testimony dated 6th of May 2007 related the details of the conversation we overheard and the information regarding the paper that Neil and I used in the searches.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
end Quote
The inventiveness of those who wish to hang on in there and keep the myth going that Dr Gerald McCann was the man identified by Martin Smith ... bearing in mind Martin Smith no longer thinks so ... and Mr McCluskey whose description was mirrored word for word by Mr Smith was certainly wrong ... is truly remarkable.
I think there are interesting points to take from PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm but they are not the absolutely arbitrary timing of when they may have retrieved a paper containing the MW search procedures ... even if that is what they were discussing and that certainly is not made clear ... and the ridiculous attempt to use it to "time" Dr McCann's whereabouts.
Ten out of ten for inventiveness there ... minus ten for "interpretation".
Of interest as well is the fact the original statements are missing from the files and the ones we are using were taken a year after the event when some information may not have been remembered well.
Shining has summed it up quite well on her blog ... but whatever ... she certainly makes it all a lot more interesting than constant myopic attempts to set in tablets of stone another ridiculous theory, disowned by its author and disregarded by the investigation.
Enjoy some background reading here ...
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/02/03/textusa-v-neil-berry-and-raj-balu-continued/
I don't understand what Shining's blog has to do with this, she doesn't discuss times after the alarm was given. Likewise Smith and McClusky. I was posting to P'finder about the likely time when Berry and Balu began to search. They used a 'paper'. If it was issued as part of the Missing Child process then they searched after 10.20pm. I have no idea what time they discovered that a child was missing except it was 'after 10pm'.
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My other main concern is: We do not have an actual time of Maddies dissapearance. Last independent witness is early on that day! Ok let's say from 7 onwards. No physical checking at all. Just 'listening'.
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I don't understand what Shining's blog has to do with this, she doesn't discuss times after the alarm was given. Likewise Smith and McClusky. I was posting to P'finder about the likely time when Berry and Balu began to search. They used a 'paper'. If it was issued as part of the Missing Child process then they searched after 10.20pm. I have no idea what time they discovered that a child was missing except it was 'after 10pm'.
You say they had a paper. I can neither confirm nor dispute that.
But one thing that I do know is that they could have been searching a while before they were given any paper that might have existed.
Having a paper proves NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA
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You say they had a paper. I can neither confirm nor dispute that.
But one thing that I do know is that they could have been searching a while before they were given any paper that might have existed.
Having a paper proves NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA
Having pointers proves nothing.
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Having pointers proves nothing.
Not to you, cos you dont know what they are
But seems they revealed something to SY
Nigh night stephen.
Sleep well
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You say they had a paper. I can neither confirm nor dispute that.
But one thing that I do know is that they could have been searching a while before they were given any paper that might have existed.
Having a paper proves NOTHING, ZILCH, NADA
i never said it did. Neither does the fact that they heard Gerald calling Madeleine, because we can't put a time on that either.
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Topic Please. Or Else.
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i never said it did. Neither does the fact that they heard Gerald calling Madeleine, because we can't put a time on that either.
They never did get a 'timeline' conversation- nothing they said matched up. The only accurate time we have is the police record.
It was not beyond the capabilities of 'intelligent doctors' very smart people' 'well educated' to shout "does anyone here in the tapas" speak portugues? could they phone the police...
ok argue out that one?
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They never did get a 'timeline' conversation- nothing they said matched up. The only accurate time we have is the police record.
It was not beyond the capabilities of 'intelligent doctors' very smart people' 'well educated' to shout "does anyone here in the tapas" speak portugues? could they phone the police...
ok argue out that one?
They would be so destraught, rather like headless chickens.
They would not need to phone the Police because they believed that the receptionist (who Matt had rushed to) had called the police within about 10 minutes of realising that Madeleine had gone missing.
In their minds, the Police would be arriving any minute, as in the UK generally.
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They would be so destraught, rather like headless chickens.
They would not need to phone the Police because they believed that the receptionist (who Matt had rushed to) had called the police within about 10 minutes of realising that Madeleine had gone missing.
In their minds, the Police would be arriving any minute, as in the UK generally.
No sadie.
The first call to the police is well documented and it wasn't 10.10 pm.
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No sadie.
The first call to the police is well documented and it wasn't 10.10 pm.
... and if the police had been called when people believed they had been called ... and not after the MW manager had been alerted as actually happened ... what do you think they (the police) would have done differently.
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No sadie.
The first call to the police is well documented and it wasn't 10.10 pm.
That was the Receptionist and The Polices fault.
As far as the Tapas group were concerned, the Police had been called.
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That was the Receptionist and The Polices fault.
As far as the Tapas group were concerned, the Police had been called.
Is there absolute proof of that ?
and if so where ?
As it stands the recorded time is 10.40 pm.
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Is there absolute proof of that ?
and if so where ?
As it stands the recorded time is 10.40 pm.
No one seriously believes that The McCanns didn't want The Police to be called, do they?
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No one seriously believes that The McCanns didn't want The Police to be called, do they?
No, I don't believe they didn't want to call the police, but I don't believe they wanted them called right away until they got a story together to explain how that could happen if they were with the children. I explained reasons for them not wanting to, but having to, hence the time delay. Just my opinion. It is also my reason for not believing in the jemmied shutters and whooshing curtains and sitting in the garden baloney. They were on the defence immediately.
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No, I don't believe they didn't want to call the police, but I don't believe they wanted them called right away until they got a story together to explain how that could happen if they were with the children. I explained reasons for them not wanting to, but having to, hence the time delay. Just my opinion. It is also my reason for not believing in the jemmied shutters and whooshing curtains and sitting in the garden baloney. They were on the defence immediately.
Surely if this was all pre-planned, they would have got their 'story together' before they even raised the alarm, never mind before they called the police. Once the alarm was raised they had no way of knowing in advance whether someone else - apart from themselves - would immediately call the police.
If the McCanns knew there was no evidence that the shutters/window had been damaged/broken into and it was all a big lie - no-one has explained why they would then be so stupid as to claim that there was, knowing that as soon as the shutters/windows were examined it would be revealed that they lied.? That makes no sense whatsoever. IMO
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Surely if this was all pre-planned, they would have got their 'story together' before they even raised the alarm, never mind before they called the police. Once the alarm was raised they had no way of knowing in advance whether someone else - apart from themselves - would immediately call the police.
If the McCanns knew there was no evidence that the shutters/window had been damaged/broken into and it was all a big lie - no-one has explained why they would then be so stupid as to claim that there was, knowing that as soon as the shutters/windows were examined it would be revealed that they lied.? That makes no sense whatsoever. IMO
Who is they? And who saw the window open?
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That was the Receptionist and The Polices fault.
As far as the Tapas group were concerned, the Police had been called.
The receptionist doesn't mention seeing Matthew Oldfield, so we don't know if he did or not. If he did see him he didn't take him seriously, which must be partly Matthews fault for not being clear or forceful enough. How can the police be blamed for not responding to a call they never received? I know some think everything is their fault, but really!
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The receptionist doesn't mention seeing Matthew Oldfield, so we don't know if he did or not. If he did see him he didn't take him seriously, which must be partly Matthews fault for not being clear or forceful enough. How can the police be blamed for not responding to a call they never received? I know some think everything is their fault, but really!
This poor chap who must have been in quite a state of anxiety, didn’t remember the police telling him about a burglary holding them up on his first call(which he told Santos about).
He got all his times wrong except for what time Hill arrived in reception and what time he left to go home (24hrs) . All other times were too early by 30-50minutes( as was Santos’ times) in their statements.
I wonder why?
Santos
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-10.html
Helder
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post193.html#p193
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This poor chap who must have been in quite a state of anxiety, didn’t remember the police telling him about a burglary holding them up on his first call(which he told Santos about).
He got all his times wrong except for what time Hill arrived in reception and what time he left to go home (24hrs) . All other times were too early by 30-50minutes( as was Santos’ times) in their statements.
I wonder why?
Santos
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-10.html
Helder
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post193.html#p193
I think he ignored requests to call the police because he thought the child would be found. He responded only to John Hill because he had the authority. When he realised that he had possibly messed up he tried to cover his tracks. There is no record of him calling Santos, so he may have been trying to help him out (as his boss). That's just my guess of what may have happened, obviously. There's a wide spread of times with mostly Tapas employees giving earlier times than the T9. We don't know who got it wrong.
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I think he ignored requests to call the police because he thought the child would be found. He responded only to John Hill because he had the authority. When he realised that he had possibly messed up he tried to cover his tracks. There is no record of him calling Santos, so he may have been trying to help him out (as his boss). That's just my guess of what may have happened, obviously. There's a wide spread of times with mostly Tapas employees giving earlier times than the T9. We don't know who got it wrong.
Thanks G
I agree there seemed to be a covering of tracks somewhere along the way. We do know however that Santos could not have got his times correct
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 received a phone call from receptionist (2) who said that John Hill was agitated
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
Santos must have been called after 10.25 by Helder, if J Hill was agitated and he had to have arrived after 11pm if the GNR were there, so this timing is way out, by about 30 minutes at least and more if the GNR had been phoned at 10.41, before Santos was called
If the police were phoned immediately after the call from the waiter. The waiter's request must have been close to 10.30-10.40, but I suspect as you have already said, that Helder was awaiting instructions fro JH.
What a muddle of times and why wasn't the receptionist questioned about the request for him to phone the police by Matt? All very strange indeed.
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Thanks G
I agree there seemed to be a covering of tracks somewhere along the way. We do know however that Santos could not have got his times correct
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 received a phone call from receptionist (2) who said that John Hill was agitated
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
Santos must have been called after 10.25 by Helder, if J Hill was agitated and he had to have arrived after 11pm if the GNR were there, so this timing is way out, by about 30 minutes at least and more if the GNR had been phoned at 10.41, before Santos was called
If the police were phoned immediately after the call from the waiter. The waiter's request must have been close to 10.30-10.40, but I suspect as you have already said, that Helder was awaiting instructions fro JH.
What a muddle of times and why wasn't the receptionist questioned about the request for him to phone the police by Matt? All very strange indeed.
At the beginning the PJ collected lots of statements, but they didn't seem to have examined them very closely. If had done that they could have gone back and tried to discover why and how the various inconsistences arose. Whether it was incompetence, shortage of manpower or pressure of work we don't know, but there seem to be questions which were never asked.
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At the beginning the PJ collected lots of statements, but they didn't seem to have examined them very closely. If had done that they could have gone back and tried to discover why and how the various inconsistences arose. Whether it was incompetence, shortage of manpower or pressure of work we don't know, but there seem to be questions which were never asked.
In this investigation they produced vast reams of statements, on a scale they appear to have never encountered before.
The statements are all on paper i.e. non-computerised. We armchair detectives have had years to collate them. The PJ did not.
And whilst the thread title and number of responses says this forum's members have noted discrepancies in the statements re call times, why would the PJ have this high on their priorities?
They had the call logs showing the phone times, plus the police statements as to when the police arrived. The main issue was probably fending off allegations that they were slow to respond.
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In this investigation they produced vast reams of statements, on a scale they appear to have never encountered before.
The statements are all on paper i.e. non-computerised. We armchair detectives have had years to collate them. The PJ did not.
And whilst the thread title and number of responses says this forum's members have noted discrepancies in the statements re call times, why would the PJ have this high on their priorities?
They had the call logs showing the phone times, plus the police statements as to when the police arrived. The main issue was probably fending off allegations that they were slow to respond.
I completely agree. They did their best under very difficult circumstances. Nevertheless they accepted that the alarm was raised at about 10pm, despite quite a few statements saying it was quite a bit earlier.
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In this investigation they produced vast reams of statements, on a scale they appear to have never encountered before.
The statements are all on paper i.e. non-computerised. We armchair detectives have had years to collate them. The PJ did not.
And whilst the thread title and number of responses says this forum's members have noted discrepancies in the statements re call times, why would the PJ have this high on their priorities?
They had the call logs showing the phone times, plus the police statements as to when the police arrived. The main issue was probably fending off allegations that they were slow to respond.
I agree that in the first instance it was important to find out what had happened and to set the wheels in motion to find Madeleine, and as far as the main issue you mention goes ... of course they had an eye to covering their backsides.
However I find it extraordinary that one of the first things the Rebelo investigation found it necessary to do was to collate all these pieces of paper you mention and put the information contained onto hard drives.
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I agree that in the first instance it was important to find out what had happened and to set the wheels in motion to find Madeleine, and as far as the main issue you mention goes ... of course they had an eye to covering their backsides.
However I find it extraordinary that one of the first things the Rebelo investigation found it necessary to do was to collate all these pieces of paper you mention and put the information contained onto hard drives.
You might be right about when this stuff was put onto hard drives therefore I am not going to suggest otherwise.
I had the impression that taking jpgs (photos or scans) of the statements was done shortly prior to the release of the files.
Photos (or scans) of statements is a truly awful way to getting the information cross-referenced.
I haven't seen anything in the PJ Files that suggests they had a decent system for analysing/linking whatever. Was the oldest such system called a Rolladex?
To be fair, I haven't seen anything that suggests SY is using more advanced technology than this.
Whilst it appears to me a couple of posters on here have the info cross-referenced on what looks like a spreadsheet. In lots and lots of lovely detail.
Maybe we should chip in and help them?
After all, we can tell when the police were called, can we not?
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You might be right about when this stuff was put onto hard drives therefore I am not going to suggest otherwise.
I had the impression that taking jpgs (photos or scans) of the statements was done shortly prior to the release of the files.
Photos (or scans) of statements is a truly awful way to getting the information cross-referenced.
I haven't seen anything in the PJ Files that suggests they had a decent system for analysing/linking whatever. Was the oldest such system called a Rolladex?
To be fair, I haven't seen anything that suggests SY is using more advanced technology than this.
Whilst it appears to me a couple of posters on here have the info cross-referenced on what looks like a spreadsheet. In lots and lots of lovely detail.
Maybe we should chip in and help them?
After all, we can tell when the police were called, can we not?
Do you think that true? Why on earth would anyone bother - is it that important to anyone other than the police?
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Do you think that true? Why on earth would anyone bother - is it that important to anyone other than the police?
Would you prefer Madeleine found or not?
Would you like the perps found or not?
Cos detail is very important if you want them found.
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Would you prefer Madeleine found or not?
Would you like the perps found or not?
Cos detail is very important if you want them found.
And like you think you will make any difference ? @)(++(*
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You might be right about when this stuff was put onto hard drives therefore I am not going to suggest otherwise.
I had the impression that taking jpgs (photos or scans) of the statements was done shortly prior to the release of the files.
Photos (or scans) of statements is a truly awful way to getting the information cross-referenced.
I haven't seen anything in the PJ Files that suggests they had a decent system for analysing/linking whatever. Was the oldest such system called a Rolladex?
To be fair, I haven't seen anything that suggests SY is using more advanced technology than this.
Whilst it appears to me a couple of posters on here have the info cross-referenced on what looks like a spreadsheet. In lots and lots of lovely detail.
Maybe we should chip in and help them?
After all, we can tell when the police were called, can we not?
What would you expect to be able to see of the Met's technology used in this case? We do know they have a computer system called HOLMES which helps them to sift through thousands of pieces of data to help formulate information such as the timeline, is this really no more sophisticated than a Rolladex?
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Do you think that true? Why on earth would anyone bother - is it that important to anyone other than the police?
I haven't checked the numbers. I think that at least two or more posters on here have clicked up cross-referenced info that comes from a better source than merely paper. It pops up frequently faster than traffic lights change from red to green.
As far as I am aware, this covers the PJ Files, Kate's book, possibly Gonçalo's book and possibly media reports from the time that Madeleine disappeared to now.
Is it important? Yes, I think so. I have a 'database' (aka spreadsheet) that I would consider to be much less advanced that these posters. And in certain, very very restricted areas, I am miles ahead of SY.
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I haven't checked the numbers. I think that at least two or more posters on here have clicked up cross-referenced info that comes from a better source than merely paper. It pops up frequently faster than traffic lights change from red to green.
As far as I am aware, this covers the PJ Files, Kate's book, possibly Gonçalo's book and possibly media reports from the time that Madeleine disappeared to now.
Is it important? Yes, I think so. I have a 'database' (aka spreadsheet) that I would consider to be much less advanced that these posters. And in certain, very very restricted areas, I am miles ahead of SY.
Well done Shining.
I think I was too, but of course I had several years start.
I have shared most stuff with them ... could I suggest you do that too.
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Do you think that true? Why on earth would anyone bother - is it that important to anyone other than the police?
Perhaps they are learning to use Excel and needed a subject for trial?
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Perhaps they are learning to use Excel and needed a subject for trial?
I have a vision of that scene from Star Trek, or was it Dr Who, where the speaking computer states " Illogical, illogical - cannot compute, cannot compute" and self-destructs in a cloud of smoke @)(++(*
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In the book "Vanished - The Truth About the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann"
By Danny Collins the author states "who called the Police .... has never been satisfactorily resolved."
Can we do better than that?
Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lots of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. ...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
It appears the police were only called once John Hill approved the phone call.
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This quite believable:http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
because everybody just seemed to just sort of run, there was sort of no organisation, you know, and it was obviously important that we, you know, we did something constructive rather than just running around looking in the hedgerows if, you know, what we, because we all went through this, you know, is she really gone, surely she must have just sort of wandered off and we're just going to find her and she's going to be there, but, you know, she's like a four year old child and, you know, she, I mean, all the doors were shut, she wasn't really going to run off and then Jane said, the shutters up, and, you know, we sort of scarpered and Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
So you would have to say it was Matt who tried his best to get the Police to be called but OC had their procedures to follow first. And I suppose that procedure also had a clause that the staff had to get approval from a senior member of the staff first before ringing as well, well that sounds good but what happens if he is out of cell phone range or his phone is switched off or on another call?
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It appears the police were only called once John Hill approved the phone call.
According to the Ocean Club Reception yes, procedures had to be followed. There was discussion however between tapas staff members about phoning the police but since there is no record of the calls from their mobile phones in the files it is unknown whether they did so.
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In the book "Vanished - The Truth About the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann"
By Danny Collins the author states "who called the Police .... has never been satisfactorily resolved."
Can we do better than that?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
It appears the police were only called once John Hill approved the phone call.
What is the date of publication of the book?
Why does Collins think that who called the police has never been satisfactorily resolved?
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According to the Ocean Club Reception yes, procedures had to be followed. There was discussion however between tapas staff members about phoning the police but since there is no record of the calls from their mobile phones in the files it is unknown whether they did so.
Would it still be possible to get the cellphone records from the cellphone towers in that area? OK it might be tricky to identify who was ringing who but maybe the phone companies can release that information to Scotland Yard's Operation Grange.
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What is the date of publication of the book?
Why does Collins think that who called the police has never been satisfactorily resolved?
It is his words in the book so I suppose that is his opinion. He didn't go into a lot of detail. Was it a recent publication? "Published October 1st 2008 by John Blake"
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It is his words in the book so I suppose that is his opinion. He didn't go into a lot of detail. Was it a recent publication? "Published October 1st 2008 by John Blake"
Re PJ Files - "It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law"
I would suggest Collins either did not have access to a copy of the PJ Files or did not have sufficient time to study them to identify the two calls from the OC land line to the GNR, the first at 10.41pm. From memory, someone recently posted that shortly before both of these calls there was a phone call from John Hill to reception, presumably requesting these two calls.
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Re PJ Files - "It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law"
I would suggest Collins either did not have access to a copy of the PJ Files or did not have sufficient time to study them to identify the two calls from the OC land line to the GNR, the first at 10.41pm. From memory, someone recently posted that shortly before both of these calls there was a phone call from John Hill to reception, presumably requesting these two calls.
I was involved in those recent discussions and they don't stack up, there was no need to ring the police twice 10 minutes apart.
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I was involved in those recent discussions and they don't stack up, there was no need to ring the police twice 10 minutes apart.
Whatever your opinion of the calls, the files clearly show 2 calls from the OC land line to the GNR. And that, AFAIK, is consistent with every relevant statement in the PJ Files.
Mr Collins seems to have got it wrong because he did not have (sufficient) access to the evidence.
You've got access to the evidence, therefore it is up to you to come up with something better than stating that in your opinion it does not stack up.
What is correct procedure when you have a missing child, a missing child search has produced nothing, and the police have not (yet) arrived following your first phone call?
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Whatever your opinion of the calls, the files clearly show 2 calls from the OC land line to the GNR. And that, AFAIK, is consistent with every relevant statement in the PJ Files.
Mr Collins seems to have got it wrong because he did not have (sufficient) access to the evidence.
You've got access to the evidence, therefore it is up to you to come up with something better than stating that in your opinion it does not stack up.
What is correct procedure when you have a missing child, a missing child search has produced nothing, and the police have not (yet) arrived following your first phone call?
we'll be reviewing all the evidence over the next week.
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we'll be reviewing all the evidence over the next week.
I have examined it already, so whoever 'we' supposedly is, it does not include me.
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I have examined it already, so whoever 'we' supposedly is, it does not include me.
1. If that is the case could you present your best argument and I'll see if it stands scrutiny please?
2. Please explain the reason if the Police were rung at 22:42 they would need ringing again at 22:53 or thereabouts? (Correction thanks to Pegasus and .....)
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1. If that is the case could you present your best argument and I'll see if it stands scrutiny please?
2. Please explain the reason if the Police were rung at 20:42 they would need ringing again at 20:53 or thereabouts?
Is there something about 'it does not include me' that you don't understand?
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(snip)... if the Police were rung at 20:42 they would need ringing again at 20:53 or thereabouts?
http://www.math-salamanders.com/image-files/24-hour-clock-face.gif.pagespeed.ce.uvnMWc8Xls.gif
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Is there something about 'it does not include me' that you don't understand?
Yes there is, the bit I don't understand is the bit where you say "I have examined it already". If that is true and you show the forum your result then we will accept it.
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http://www.math-salamanders.com/image-files/24-hour-clock-face.gif.pagespeed.ce.uvnMWc8Xls.gif
I was asking a serious question and you show me a diagram of a clock face! Fixed it. Thanks.
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Re PJ Files - "It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law"
I would suggest Collins either did not have access to a copy of the PJ Files or did not have sufficient time to study them to identify the two calls from the OC land line to the GNR, the first at 10.41pm. From memory, someone recently posted that shortly before both of these calls there was a phone call from John Hill to reception, presumably requesting these two calls.
His book was publshed MAY 2008, and largely based on news articles and talking to various people, therefore well before the files were published.
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It is so interesting to see what people have said in the past: Take this post from Pegasus http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6456.msg256228#msg256228
The other reason given for not using one of their 8 mobiles to phone police, was "we didn't speak portuguese", which is reasonable and true. (However Portugal does provide english speaking 112 operators).
That might be true but if you haven't tried it before you would not know that. So do you know this from personal experience?
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That thread linked to another older thread started by Anna http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg228871#msg228871
Having checked out the timing I can’t understand, why the police weren’t called earlier?
People knew and called reception and other staff from approx 10.10pm, but no call was made from OC to police until 10.41 pm (2) (23) (29) (33)
2..………… Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
……………Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post193.html#p193
23 .……… Emma Louise KNIGHT
Occupation: Hotel Manager
Date: 30th April 2008
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-50.html
29.……… Marina Paulo Raposo Batista Castela
Date: 2007 – 05 – 16
Place of Work: Ocean Club
Occupation: General Manager
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-130.html
33.……… Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas
Date: 2007/05/06
Occupation: Barman / Waiter
Place of Work: Ocean Club
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-140.html
This does not include Matt's apparent visit to reception at 10.20 as statements
I have an idea that no one can understand this till they know the reason why. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7494.0
[Potential libel deleted.]
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Ribeiro http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-10.html
Helder http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6456.msg259311#msg259311
I completely agree. They did their best under very difficult circumstances. Nevertheless they accepted that the alarm was raised at about 10pm, despite quite a few statements saying it was quite a bit earlier.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg228876#msg228876
Good comment showing difficulty of establishing times of events.
I believe that the timing is inaccurate, as the waiter called at 10.15 and since Diane was still in the restaurant that would be about right. He then decided to call police at 10.41pm and Gerry and John Hill arrived so he called again at 10.51.
In Vitor Santos statement Times seem wrong too. John Hill didn't arrive until 22.33 so way out.
?
Vitor Manuel dos Santos With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00-22.25he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-10.html
(phoned the police several times???) (what theft?)
Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception Vítor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post193.html#p193
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6160.msg228881#msg228881 also important.
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Does anyone know why the rental apartments didn't have phones in, which at least gave a link to reception?
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They actually followed advice which is to get immediate assistance. Reception should acted immediately by dialling the emergency number ... which is what the receptionist on duty said he had done, so it looks like ...
- he lied in his statement because he knew that is what he should have acted immediately
- he delegated
- or he did ... but used a mobile
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They actually followed advice which is to get immediate assistance. ... (snip)
The Irish Foreign Office site you have quoted advises:
"If you’re a victim of a crime while in Portugal, report it to the local police immediately"
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They actually followed advice which is to get immediate assistance. Reception should acted immediately by dialling the emergency number ... which is what the receptionist on duty said he had done, so it looks like ...
- he lied in his statement because he knew that is what he should have acted immediately
- he delegated
- or he did ... but used a mobile
112 first became standardised during 1970s and was implemented by EU in 1990s.
So the average Brit takes more than ten years to catch on ? and in some cases a quarter of a century you seem to suggest. I am not surprised; most should not be allowed beyond the soggy bit at Dover without their mums.[/list]
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Does anyone know why the rental apartments didn't have phones in, which at least gave a link to reception?
The apartments might or might not have had phones in - typical cost 30€ per month for line rental - whether the apartment was booked or not.
I am responding to you right now down our telephone line, but in 2007?
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The Irish Foreign Office site you have quoted advises:
"If you’re a victim of a crime while in Portugal, report it to the local police immediately"
The Paynes booked the holiday therefore they would have been sent all the relevant literature, not the McCanns.
Did MW issue an information pack to all their guests upon arrival, I wonder?
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They actually followed advice which is to get immediate assistance. Reception should acted immediately by dialling the emergency number ... which is what the receptionist on duty said he had done, so it looks like ...
- he lied in his statement because he knew that is what he should have acted immediately
- he delegated
- or he did ... but used a mobile
He is caught between what he should do and what he's got to do to keep his job. His boss seems to get real grumpy if he is not obeyed. So he takes his orders from the boss.
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The Paynes booked the holiday therefore they would have been sent all the relevant literature, not the McCanns.
Did MW issue an information pack to all their guests upon arrival, I wonder?
Even if they did do you read them?
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The apartments might or might not have had phones in - typical cost 30€ per month for line rental - whether the apartment was booked or not.
I am responding to you right now down our telephone line, but in 2007?
The reason I asked was because the outgoing calls record from OC appears to show that there were several extensions used that day to make calls, even to the UK.
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The reason I asked was because the outgoing calls record from OC appears to show that there were several extensions used that day to make calls, even to the UK.
The OC had a base unit plus 100 extensions tacked onto their number. As to why this included calls to the UK, I would be guessing, Thomas Cook? Mark Warner? Owner occupiers? Don't know.
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Even if they did do you read them?
If I had read them, I doubt the emergency number would be top of my "things to remember" list.
In the UK, besides our 999 Emergency number, we have 3 other different numbers for dialling non-emergency police, ambulance & fire brigade. I doubt there is a person on this forum who knows those numbers without resorting to google or a phone book.
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The OC had a base unit plus 100 extensions tacked onto their number. As to why this included calls to the UK, I would be guessing, Thomas Cook? Mark Warner? Owner occupiers? Don't know.
That's a lot of extensions - which begs the question as to why the Tapas waiter had to use his mobile to contact reception to tell them about the missing child. Are none of those extensions located there?
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He is caught between what he should do and what he's got to do to keep his job. His boss seems to get real grumpy if he is not obeyed. So he takes his orders from the boss.
This procedure most probably was developed after other children had gone missing previously and after the police had been called they were found hiding somewhere nearby. Waste of police time and resources and all that! The receptionist was undoubtedly well aware of such occurrences so didn't want to attract the wrath of his manager should it turn out to be yet another false alarm.
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This procedure most probably was developed after other children had gone missing previously and after the police had been called they were found hiding somewhere nearby. Waste of police time and resources and all that! The receptionist was undoubtedly well aware of such occurrences so didn't want to attract the wrath of his manager should it turn out to be yet another false alarm.
But the important thing in this case is the manager "is already in a bad mood" because of the earlier call to the Police, the one where they say they can't come straight away because they are busy sorting out that robbery. OK it turns out less important and the OC management seem to handle it themselves. But there is no way that that story fits in with such an efficient response to the OC calls re MM once they are made at 10:41 or 10:52, for if you ring at 10:41 and they tell you "they are busy with a robbery" you don't ring them back 10 minutes later wondering where they have got too!
[ speculation removed ]
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The OC had a base unit plus 100 extensions tacked onto their number. As to why this included calls to the UK, I would be guessing, Thomas Cook? Mark Warner? Owner occupiers? Don't know.
The equipment and line rental gave the potential to install up to 100 lines. The actual number of lines installed was probably much less.
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But the important thing in this case is the manager "is already in a bad mood" because of the earlier call to the Police, the one where they say they can't come straight away because they are busy sorting out that robbery. OK it turns out less important and the OC management seem to handle it themselves. But there is no way that that story fits in with such an efficient response to the OC calls re MM once they are made at 10:41 or 10:52, for if you ring at 10:41 and they tell you "they are busy with a robbery" you don't ring them back 10 minutes later wondering where they have got too!
There was an earlier call and we will find it if we look again. At this stage I have only just been isolating the resources and I haven't finely analysed them as yet. I don't feel beaten, no yet.
How come there is no comment about this Pegasus?
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The reason I asked was because the outgoing calls record from OC appears to show that there were several extensions used that day to make calls, even to the UK.
Column 3 is not extension numbers, see column heading. Categoria tráfego.
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Column 3 is not extension numbers, see column heading. Categoria tráfego.
That translates to "category traffic". What would you think that means in practical terms?
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That translates to "category traffic". What would you think that means in practical terms?
traffic category
fairly obvious what that is if you actually look at the data
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traffic category
fairly obvious what that is if you actually look at the data
Have you identified all the owners of the phone numbers
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The equipment and line rental gave the potential to install up to 100 lines. The actual number of lines installed was probably much less.
I agree. 8((()*/
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How long would a normal trip between Lagos and Praia da Luz take?
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How long would a normal trip between Lagos and Praia da Luz take?
About 20 minutes from central Lagos to Praia da Luz.
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About 20 minutes from central Lagos to Praia da Luz.
And you have to get ready so if you are asked to return to work the trip itself would be twenty minutes but the preparation prior to leaving would easily be 10 minutes. So if a person lives in Lagos is asked to return to work the ETA would be 30 minutes at least.
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Column 3 is not extension numbers, see column heading. Categoria tráfego.
I see the general pattern now, excluding the local numbers dialled. How does that work?
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Here is (yet another!) example of why we should be wary (of what we read on line).
From the archiving dispatch:
According to the GNR, the disappearance would have occurred at about 22.40 (it was later checked that the detection and subsequent alarm effectively happened between 22.00 and 22.10) on 3rd May 2007, in one of the apartments of the Ocean Club resort, situated in Praia da Luz – Lagos, where the British family, composed of a couple and three young children were staying.
So the alarm was raised at between 10pm and 1010 pm (and Madeleine vanished at 1040pm)?
Seems reasonable to assume that the Madeleine vanished around 9.40 pm (2140) and the alarm was raised, 20 minutes later.
Seems about right.
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Here is (yet another!) example of why we should be wary (of what we read on line).
From the archiving dispatch:
So the alarm was raised at between 10pm and 1010 pm (and Madeleine vanished at 1040pm)?
Seems reasonable to assume that the Madeleine vanished around 9.40 pm (2140) and the alarm was raised, 20 minutes later.
Seems about right.
Nope.
"
----- Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
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Nope.
"
----- Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children. She immediately made her way to the apartment by the usual path, she having entered by the rear door. About 10 minutes later, he started to worry about her lateness and, at the moment he prepared to stand and to go to see the reason for her lateness, KATE appeared running, completely distraught and crying, saying that MADELEINE had disappeared and that she was sure because she had looked throughout the house."
You are taking (yet another!) report, taken in one language, translated into a different language and transcribed (from one, spoken language to another, written language), before being (yet again translated) to the English form we read on line) and (attempting) to infer something deeply sinister from it.
It's the way you (and others) have carried on since Madeleine was abducted.
Just won't do.
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You are taking (yet another!) report, taken in one language, translated into a different language and transcribed (from one, spoken language to another, written language), before being (yet again translated) to the English form we read on line) and (attempting) to infer something deeply sinister from it.
It's the way you (and others) have carried on since Madeleine was abducted.
Just won't do.
Why did you say that? I didn't get anything sinister from that?
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Why did you say that? I didn't get anything sinister from that?
By the literal and semantic interpretation (of reports that we read on line) you can take it that the alarm was already raised by 10.00pm; or yet to be raised at 10.00pm.
That is the angle faith lilly (and others) would home in on.
It is wholly spurious, indicative of nothing (sinister) and suggestive of how patchy the reports (that we read on line) are.
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About 20 minutes from central Lagos to Praia da Luz.
It is a distance of about 6km by road. I waited until I could speak to my better half. We both think 10mins maximum.
That time becomes important because it influences when the GNR moved from OC 24hr reception to apartment 5A, and so when many people first thought the GNR had finally turned up.
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It is a distance of about 6km by road. I waited until I could speak to my better half. We both think 10mins maximum.
That time becomes important because it influences when the GNR moved from OC 24hr reception to apartment 5A, and so when many people first thought the GNR had finally turned up.
Of course the GNR patrol which responded was in Odiaxere, 15-20 minutes away depending on traffic;
Clarifies that the occurrence in question was transmitted to the above referenced patrol via radio, at time when they were located in Odiaxere;
The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child;
Following, this patrol went to the residence
José Maria Batista Roque
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
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But the important thing in this case is the manager "is already in a bad mood" because of the earlier call to the Police, the one where they say they can't come straight away because they are busy sorting out that robbery. OK it turns out less important and the OC management seem to handle it themselves. But there is no way that that story fits in with such an efficient response to the OC calls re MM once they are made at 10:41 or 10:52, for if you ring at 10:41 and they tell you "they are busy with a robbery" you don't ring them back 10 minutes later wondering where they have got too!
[ speculation removed ]
I see no problem whatsoever with the two calls by Receptionist Helder to police just 11 minutes apart.
In his statement Helder claims he was initially alerted by staff from the tapas restaurant and phoned the police immediately. Warner Manager John Hill for his part claims he was initially alerted on his mobile at 10.28pm by head of childcare Lindsay and arrived on site some 5 minutes later. Hill states that after observing the searching going on around the resort he went to OC main reception and advised Helder to phone the police again.
This was after all, one of two possibilities, a suspected child abduction or a child in peril. Almost an hour after the disappearance and with no sign whatsoever of the child, some panic and urgency was plainly warranted.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm
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Of course the GNR patrol which responded was in Odiaxere, 15-20 minutes away depending on traffic;
Clarifies that the occurrence in question was transmitted to the above referenced patrol via radio, at time when they were located in Odiaxere;
The patrol of which he took part, and now as a witness, went immediately to the principal reception of the aforementioned establishment, where there was encountered the father of the missing child;
Following, this patrol went to the residence
José Maria Batista Roque
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
I accept the GNR unit was in Oxiaxere when it got the first request. The records show 10.41 as the first call from the land line of the OC to the land line of GNR Lagos. But when that request was relayed to the mobile patrol in Odiaxere is not on record. In addition to the OC mobile it appears there was also a mobile for GNR Lagos, so we may or may not be missing some info.
The records show a call from the OC land line to GNR Lagos at around 10.52 or 10.53. I can't see anything to say how quickly that resulted in a hurry up to the mobile GNR unit, merely that the patrol was passing the Vale Verde restaurant when they got it. It could have been 10.53 or minutes later.
Now there is the question of the call between the receptionist and his boss, which I can't see in the records, only in their statements. This was made after the hurry up call, it seems. The boss was in Lagos, but made it in time to arrive at OC 24 hr reception with the GNR present talking to Gerry.
That for me is the importance of the Lagos-Luz time. If the boss had taken 20 minutes, I can't see how the GNR would still have been in the OC reception.
That takes me to Gerry's 2 calls to Kate at 11.14 and 11.17. These are consistent with Gerry still being at the OC with the GNR around that time telling her what was going on, the boss being on-site, and the GNR not reaching 5A until close to 11.20.
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Always remembering that the GNR were already on their way to Praia da Luz when they were contacted by their HQ again following the second call at 10.52pm. Thereafter arriving at Main Reception around 11pm.
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I see the general pattern now, excluding the local numbers dialled. How does that work?
Something like this Misty
04,05=local
10,15=longdist
34=mob
16,55,64=other tariffs
52=dir enq
20=international
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Always remembering that the GNR were already on their way to Praia da Luz when they were contacted by their HQ again following the second call at 10.52pm. Thereafter arriving at Main Reception around 11pm.
John Hill lived in Espiche, which is maybe 1km away from OC reception. He was on-site earlier than Vitor, and we recently established his mobile was in contact with OC reception shortly before each call to the GNR.
So - call 1 - John Hill to reception. Call 2 - reception calls GNR Lagos. John Hill did not speak Portuguese, according to his statement, so getting someone Portuguese to do it makes sense.
Call 3 - John Hill to reception - time passing, possibly a hurry-up call. Call 4 reception to GNR Lagos - appears to have been a hurry up call. Possibly there is a call from the receptionist to his direct boss Vitor in Lagos, and Vitor moves as quick as he can.
Call 5 - Gerry to Kate at 11.14. This is not required if the GNR, Gerry and Kate are all ensconced in 5A. On best evidence, Gerry is in OC reception, presumably telling Kate the GNR are on their way. Call 6 - Gerry to Kate - 11.17 - speculation on my part, but it fits Gerry telling Kate the GNR have arrived and/or they are all heading for 5A.
All of this suggests the GNR did not make it to 5A until around 11.20pm.
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That's a good summary Shining.
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I haven't trawled through the phone records as yet so well done to those who have.
Receptionist Helder appears to have been under some pressure what with Matt and then John Hill insisting that he call the police combined with their failure to attend the scene urgently.
Matt claims in his rog that he went down to reception immediately after the disappearance was discovered (approx 10.10pm) and asked the staff to phone the police but they fobbed him off basically.
Snip
...so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
00.51.10 4078 'Quite quick then''
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment...
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
while
Ocean Club manager Vitor Manuel dos Santos who had responsibility for reception was called by receptionist Helder pursuant to John Hill's insistances that the police be called.
Snip
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm
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What I cannot reconcile however is the following.
John Hill claims that his first alert was down to Lindsay at 10.28pm yet Vitor Santos claims that Helder in reception contacted him as early as 10.15pm to advise that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared?
Surely in the circumstances a difference of some 15 minutes is rather odd?
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What I cannot reconcile however is the following.
John Hill claims that his first alert was down to Lindsay at 10.28pm yet Vitor Santos claims that Helder in reception contacted him as early as 10.15pm to advise that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared?
Surely in the circumstances a difference of some 15 minutes is rather odd?
But that is not so hard to understand if there had been two incidents involving children on the same night. Then it actually makes perfect sense.
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John Hill lived in Espiche, which is maybe 1km away from OC reception. He was on-site earlier than Vitor, and we recently established his mobile was in contact with OC reception shortly before each call to the GNR.
So - call 1 - John Hill to reception. Call 2 - reception calls GNR Lagos. John Hill did not speak Portuguese, according to his statement, so getting someone Portuguese to do it makes sense.
Call 3 - John Hill to reception - time passing, possibly a hurry-up call. Call 4 reception to GNR Lagos - appears to have been a hurry up call. Possibly there is a call from the receptionist to his direct boss Vitor in Lagos, and Vitor moves as quick as he can.
Call 5 - Gerry to Kate at 11.14. This is not required if the GNR, Gerry and Kate are all ensconced in 5A. On best evidence, Gerry is in OC reception, presumably telling Kate the GNR are on their way. Call 6 - Gerry to Kate - 11.17 - speculation on my part, but it fits Gerry telling Kate the GNR have arrived and/or they are all heading for 5A.
All of this suggests the GNR did not make it to 5A until around 11.20pm.
Do you have any suggestions for the other two calls from Garry to Kate?
what was her reason for deleting three of the four calls, between 23.14 and 23.17, from her husband on that critical night'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
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G-unit there was one call at 23:14 and one call at 23:17.
1+1=2 calls in total.
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Do you have any suggestions for the other two calls from Garry to Kate?
what was her reason for deleting three of the four calls, between 23.14 and 23.17, from her husband on that critical night'.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
We've done this one before.
Gerry on Vodafone, so Vodafone records 2 calls from him to Kate. Kate on Optimus, so Optimus records 2 calls to Kate from Gerry.
Only 2 calls, but recorded slightly differently by Vodafone and Optimus. 2x2 =4. Just 2 calls recorded on 2 different networks.
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But that is not so hard to understand if there had been two incidents involving children on the same night. Then it actually makes perfect sense.
Evidence and facts please Bob. Had there been two incidents someone somewhere would have mentioned it by now don't ya think?
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Evidence and facts please Bob. Had there been two incidents someone somewhere would have mentioned it by now don't ya think?
Once you allow yourself to read the statements with that option the evidence appears. You see the players covering their butts and pulling fast ones on the GNR officers and pointing the finger at Robert Murat to get the only really fluent translator out of the way.
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Once you allow yourself to read the statements with that option the evidence appears. You see the players covering their butts and pulling fast ones on the GNR officers and pointing the finger at Robert Murat to get the only really fluent translator out of the way.
Maybe a more accurate pronoun might be "I" ?
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Maybe a more accurate pronoun might be "I" ?
What about you then, have you ever considered the possibility of an earlier accident, incident interfering with the later incident?
If they released all the calls made from 9:00 PM onward and the cell phone to cell phone calls made in that area between 9:00 and 12:00 maybe then we all could see it.
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I just keep on wondering if there is a reward any more.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4017.0
The last post is pertinent
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4017.0
The last post is pertinent
Still would be alright for 6 months work.
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Something like this Misty
04,05=local
10,15=longdist
34=mob
16,55,64=other tariffs
52=dir enq
20=international
Thank you for explaining that.
For what seems to be a data-recording system full of much information, why do you think it would throw up an "UNKNOWN" (international) in the midst of scores of other numbers on a phone record?
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Thank you for explaining that.
For what seems to be a data-recording system full of much information, why do you think it would throw up an "UNKNOWN" (international) in the midst of scores of other numbers on a phone record?
Which page?
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Which page?
Will send you a p.m.
ETA Or perhaps not?!!
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Will send you a p.m.
I turned them off Misty. BTW there are plenty of redacted numbers in the phone data, but they also always redact whether they are domestic or foreign.
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I turned them off Misty. BTW there are are plenty of redacted numbers, but they also always redact whether they are domestic or foreign.
The numbers are not redacted in the same manner as on GM's records - there would have been no need. The print out says UNKNOWN but has all the other data,