UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: peter claridge on April 26, 2013, 06:01:54 PM
-
They took the usual route to the “TAPAS”, where they arrived a little after 20H35, not having passed on the route anyone known nor detected anything abnormal. Asked, he said that the dinner bookings were made since Monday, it was already the intention of the group to take their meals there. They were the first of the group to arrive, seating themselves at the biggest table, as usual, which is located in the middle between other tables, under an awning with a transparent plastic surface at the front. He mentions that they were seated at the table, in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment, through which they left and entered and which gave access to the living room.
They left the apartment between 8:30-8:35 p.m., and headed straight for the Tapas where they arrived 1 minute later maximum. None of the group were at the Tapas because they were usually the first to arrive, but she isn’t sure this was the case every night. There was a couple there who they knew, Steve and Carolyn Carpenter, who belonged to Gerry’s tennis group. They talked with them for a few moments before sitting down. Meanwhile, while they talked to the Carpenters, the rest of their group arrived and sat down at a round table, where they sat every day. Order of arrival: Kate and Gerry first, then Jane, she thinks on her own, then Mathew and Rachel, then Russell, she thinks, and right afterwards David, Fiona and Diane. She makes a sketch of the table and says that both she and Gerry were not facing the apartments. Sketch attached.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5
-
They took the usual route to the “TAPAS”, where they arrived a little after 20H35, not having passed on the route anyone known nor detected anything abnormal. Asked, he said that the dinner bookings were made since Monday, it was already the intention of the group to take their meals there. They were the first of the group to arrive, seating themselves at the biggest table, as usual, which is located in the middle between other tables, under an awning with a transparent plastic surface at the front. He mentions that they were seated at the table, in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment, through which they left and entered and which gave access to the living room.
They left the apartment between 8:30-8:35 p.m., and headed straight for the Tapas where they arrived 1 minute later maximum. None of the group were at the Tapas because they were usually the first to arrive, but she isn’t sure this was the case every night. There was a couple there who they knew, Steve and Carolyn Carpenter, who belonged to Gerry’s tennis group. They talked with them for a few moments before sitting down. Meanwhile, while they talked to the Carpenters, the rest of their group arrived and sat down at a round table, where they sat every day. Order of arrival: Kate and Gerry first, then Jane, she thinks on her own, then Mathew and Rachel, then Russell, she thinks, and right afterwards David, Fiona and Diane. She makes a sketch of the table and says that both she and Gerry were not facing the apartments. Sketch attached.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5
A transcript would have been helpful. It was noted as the "deponent". Did he say "I" or "we"? Would this have been exclusively the deponent, or simply including him? If he said "we", who is "we"? Kate and Gerry? Or the group in general?
Why didn't the PJ clarify?
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
Why do you think they changed their seating position to be looking away from the patio doors?
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
Why do you think they changed their seating position to be looking away from the patio doors?
As I am denied the gift of retrospective telepathy, I have no ides.
A draft, a wobbly chair, wanting to speak to someone else, a command voice because of schizophrenia, a fear of spiders.
Such speculation is silly and meaningless.
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
Why do you think they changed their seating position to be looking away from the patio doors?
As I am denied the gift of retrospective telepathy, I have no ides.
A draft, a wobbly chair, wanting to speak to someone else, a command voice because of schizophrenia, a fear of spiders.
Such speculation is silly and meaningless.
Why do you think they changed their original statement of having a clear view of the rear of the apartment to looking the other way
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
Why do you think they changed their seating position to be looking away from the patio doors?
As I am denied the gift of retrospective telepathy, I have no ides.
A draft, a wobbly chair, wanting to speak to someone else, a command voice because of schizophrenia, a fear of spiders.
Such speculation is silly and meaningless.
Why do you think they changed their original statement of having a clear view of the rear of the apartment to looking the other way
Because peoples' memories are fallible. Memory is a constructive process nothing like a vide recording.
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
Why do you think they changed their seating position to be looking away from the patio doors?
As I am denied the gift of retrospective telepathy, I have no ides.
A draft, a wobbly chair, wanting to speak to someone else, a command voice because of schizophrenia, a fear of spiders.
Such speculation is silly and meaningless.
Why do you think they changed their original statement of having a clear view of the rear of the apartment to looking the other way
Because peoples' memories are fallible. Memory is a constructive process nothing like a vide recording.
Must explain how Dianne Webster's rogatory altered so much from her original statements to fall in line with the ever reconsructed timelines then. They must really hate that Smith family!
-
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
It must be such a benefit to have the gift of telepathy!
Why do you think they changed their seating position to be looking away from the patio doors?
As I am denied the gift of retrospective telepathy, I have no ides.
A draft, a wobbly chair, wanting to speak to someone else, a command voice because of schizophrenia, a fear of spiders.
Such speculation is silly and meaningless.
Why do you think they changed their original statement of having a clear view of the rear of the apartment to looking the other way
Because peoples' memories are fallible. Memory is a constructive process nothing like a vide recording.
Must explain how Dianne Webster's rogatory altered so much from her original statements to fall in line with the ever reconsructed timelines then. They must really hate that Smith family!
Either that or they are honestly confused about historic memories; which we know from research into memory is the totally normative position.
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
Peter with respect - I think you are expecting too much from people who were being asked to remember something which at the time was not important - and so they had no reason to make a point of remembering it down to the last detail.
People do forget stuff- which may later be remembered if their memory is jogged. Surely everyone has experienced that at some time in their lives.
Also people do have different concepts of time and distance, and some have brilliant recall and others do not.
During Jane Tanners rog interview DC 4078 FERGUSON reassured her that for different people to have differing recollections about the same event is quite normal - when she said the following to her.
QUOTE
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
End quote
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
Isn't there a bit of confusion? If so, on whose part? The McCanns, the "interpreter" or the officer taking notes?
From your OP
They took the usual route to the “TAPAS”, where they arrived a little after 20H35, not having passed on the route anyone known nor detected anything abnormal. Asked, he said that the dinner bookings were made since Monday, it was already the intention of the group to take their meals there. They were the first of the group to arrive, seating themselves at the biggest table, as usual, which is located in the middle between other tables, under an awning with a transparent plastic surface at the front. He mentions that they were seated at the table, in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment, through which they left and entered and which gave access to the living room.
Ok... that makes it sound as if they arrived and immediately sat down, but then...
They left the apartment between 8:30-8:35 p.m., and headed straight for the Tapas where they arrived 1 minute later maximum. None of the group were at the Tapas because they were usually the first to arrive, but she isn’t sure this was the case every night. There was a couple there who they knew, Steve and Carolyn Carpenter, who belonged to Gerry’s tennis group. They talked with them for a few moments before sitting down. Meanwhile, while they talked to the Carpenters, the rest of their group arrived and sat down at a round table, where they sat every day. Order of arrival: Kate and Gerry first, then Jane, she thinks on her own, then Mathew and Rachel, then Russell, she thinks, and right afterwards David, Fiona and Diane. She makes a sketch of the table and says that both she and Gerry were not facing the apartments. Sketch attached.
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
Peter with respect - I think you are expecting too much from people who were being asked to remember something which at the time was not important - and so they had no reason to make a point of remembering it down to the last detail.
People do forget stuff- which may later be remembered if their memory is jogged. Surely everyone has experienced that at some time in their lives.
Also people do have different concepts of time and distance, and some have brilliant recall and others do not.
During Jane Tanners rog interview DC 4078 FERGUSON reassured her that for different people to have differing recollections about the same event is quite normal - when she said the following to her.
QUOTE
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
End quote
I don't think that it's even that (although it's a possibility).
The person taking notes for the statement, via translation, could have simply confused WHEN they sat down (a moment in time) as opposed to where they sat when they DID sit down (seating arrangements).
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
Peter with respect - I think you are expecting too much from people who were being asked to remember something which at the time was not important - and so they had no reason to make a point of remembering it down to the last detail.
People do forget stuff- which may later be remembered if their memory is jogged. Surely everyone has experienced that at some time in their lives.
Also people do have different concepts of time and distance, and some have brilliant recall and others do not.
During Jane Tanners rog interview DC 4078 FERGUSON reassured her that for different people to have differing recollections about the same event is quite normal - when she said the following to her.
QUOTE
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
End quote
I don't think that it's even that (although it's a possibility).
The person taking notes for the statement, via translation, could have simply confused WHEN they sat down (a moment in time) as opposed to where they sat when they DID sit down (seating arrangements).
Or;
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
Peter with respect - I think you are expecting too much from people who were being asked to remember something which at the time was not important - and so they had no reason to make a point of remembering it down to the last detail.
People do forget stuff- which may later be remembered if their memory is jogged. Surely everyone has experienced that at some time in their lives.
Also people do have different concepts of time and distance, and some have brilliant recall and others do not.
During Jane Tanners rog interview DC 4078 FERGUSON reassured her that for different people to have differing recollections about the same event is quite normal - when she said the following to her.
QUOTE
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
End quote
I don't think that it's even that (although it's a possibility).
The person taking notes for the statement, via translation, could have simply confused WHEN they sat down (a moment in time) as opposed to where they sat when they DID sit down (seating arrangements).
Or;
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
Telepathy is so valuable.
-
in a position that allowed the deponent to see almost the entire back door of his apartment.
We don't know what he actually said.
If he'd said "we", it could be interpreted as meaning including him personally or could mean members of our group.
He's talking about himself and Kate at a time when they were the only two seated at the table (alledgedly)!
Peter with respect - I think you are expecting too much from people who were being asked to remember something which at the time was not important - and so they had no reason to make a point of remembering it down to the last detail.
People do forget stuff- which may later be remembered if their memory is jogged. Surely everyone has experienced that at some time in their lives.
Also people do have different concepts of time and distance, and some have brilliant recall and others do not.
During Jane Tanners rog interview DC 4078 FERGUSON reassured her that for different people to have differing recollections about the same event is quite normal - when she said the following to her.
QUOTE
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
End quote
I don't think that it's even that (although it's a possibility).
The person taking notes for the statement, via translation, could have simply confused WHEN they sat down (a moment in time) as opposed to where they sat when they DID sit down (seating arrangements).
Or;
It's because when they realised that their original claim (their prefered choice) of abductor entering via the bedroom window meant that their abductor would had been in the apartment during Gerry's claimed check, they would now have to have their abductor entering through the unlocked patio doors which only became unlocked to allow Mathew Oldfield's claimed "just listening" check from inside the apartment; that's why Kate & Gerry had to change their seating position at the Tapas bar... they must really hate that Smith family
Telepathy is so valuable.
I knew you were going to say that!