Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on April 28, 2013, 12:01:22 AM
Title: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on April 28, 2013, 12:01:22 AM
The PJ Coordinator in the Madeleine case, Dr Gonçalo Amaral, was pictured in front of a hotel's CCTV camera which he claims captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine on the night she disappeared. Unfortunately though, he claims that his officers failed to identify this camera and by the time he found it the hotel had deleted the recordings.
(http://i.imgur.com/DrwTEhg.jpg)
Former PJ Coordinator Dr Amaral pictured in front of the elusive CCTV camera. 8((()*/
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on October 19, 2013, 11:56:59 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/wvuU1wc.jpg)
This map depicts the route (shown in red) which former PJ Coordinator Dr Amaral believes the man carrying Madeleine took on the night she disappeared.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Mr Moderator on December 08, 2013, 03:11:47 PM
This topic has been parked for some time.
Since the BBC Crimewatch programme has failed to turn up a single lead relating to Smithman should we consign this claim by Amaral to the litter bin?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on December 08, 2013, 03:55:57 PM
Since the BBC Crimewatch programme has failed to turn up a single lead relating to Smithman should we consign this claim by Amaral to the litter bin?
You forgot to unlock @)(++(*
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 08, 2013, 04:18:48 PM
IMO this route is only a quarter of a mile, which would take under 3 minutes. Interesting because if the sighting turns out to be a little later than 10.00, even for example if was only 10 mins later, it would have the man leaving the apartment after the group had rushed back there, which would make Mr R's time revelation an understatement.
BTW even if the man with child used a slightly different route and not past this camera, it would definitely have filmed the witnesses returning home and would have provided an accurate timing for the sighting.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 05:47:03 PM
Since the BBC Crimewatch programme has failed to turn up a single lead relating to Smithman should we consign this claim by Amaral to the litter bin?
If he ran half-way it would take no more than 2 minutes. How do you know it failed to turn up a single lead? It's interesting that the Portuguese officially reopened the case after the Crimewatch efits were shown. Missing that camera was a massive mistake.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 07:24:47 PM
IMO this route is only a quarter of a mile, which would take under 3 minutes. Interesting because if the sighting turns out to be a little later than 10.00, even for example if was only 10 mins later, it would have the man leaving the apartment after the group had rushed back there, which would make Mr R's time revelation an understatement.
BTW even if the man with child used a slightly different route and not past this camera, it would definitely have filmed the witnesses returning home and would have provided an accurate timing for the sighting.
Good point Pegasus. The camera may also have picked up other witnesses or potential witnesses in addition to the Smith Family.
As a matter of interest - probably moot as the camera film is lost - does anyone know if the scrub ground between Rua Primeiro di Maio and Rua Escola is enclosed by a perimeter fence? Would it have been possible for Smithman to have entered the scrub ground on the corner of Rua Primeiro and traverse it diagonally, coming out further down Rua Escola just before meeting the Smiths?
In that case he may not have been caught on the camera in the first place.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 07:30:26 PM
It's all fenced off on the north end so Smithman would have to follow the road from the apartment. There's an entrance into the wasteland half-way down that road opposite the tennis courts.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 07:40:28 PM
It's all fenced off on the north end so Smithman would have to follow the road from the apartment. There's an entrance into the wasteland half-way down that road opposite the tennis courts.
Thanks for that, pathfinder. So theoretically he may not have walked past the corner the camera is placed at.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
I believe he would've passed that corner either from the road or the path next to the camera. I don't think he went over the fence or the other road/ocean club side.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 07:46:32 PM
Yes he would've passed that corner either from the road or the path next to it.
Oh I think I see what you mean now. I was looking at the tennis courts on the east side of Rua Primeiro de Maio. If he entered the scrub ground at that point, he would avoid the camera.
So the entrance to the scrub is on Rua Escola, south of the camera?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 07:49:12 PM
Yes entrance is south of the camera opposite tennis courts. I saw the entrance and followed that road on Google Earth. You can follow that route on Google Earth. He didn't go over the fence IMO.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 07:51:15 PM
Yes entrance is south of the camera opposite tennis courts. I saw the entrance and followed that road on Google Earth. You can follow that route on Google Earth.
OK thanks will do
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 07:56:52 PM
It's a pity I can't follow beach level or grey stone slab on top of hill ground level on Google Earth.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 08:05:48 PM
It's a pity I can't follow beach level or grey stone slab on top of hill ground level on Google Earth.
I just looked at the perimeter fence there, and the entrance we are talking about doesn't look like a formal entrance. It's just a place where the fencing appears to have been broken and collapsed to the ground. In fact the whole fence seems pretty flimsily constructed. It's all pieced together in small sections like lego, and not very high. Probably quite easy to enter that ground from any point - theoretically.
I think it's an important question because SY believe that more people must have seen Smithman. If he was in the scrub ground at any point the chances of that are presumably less. There's also a possibility he went down Rua Primeiro until much further down, turning into Rua Alvernaz at the south edge of the scrub.
This looks like a slightly busier route and therefore less likely, though we don't know how well Smithman knew the town.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 08:24:58 PM
I just looked at the perimeter fence there, and the entrance we are talking about doesn't look like a formal entrance. It's just a place where the fencing appears to have been broken and collapsed to the ground. In fact the whole fence seems pretty flimsily constructed. It's all pieced together in small sections like lego, and not very high. Probably quite easy to enter that ground from any point - theoretically.
I think it's an important question because SY believe that more people must have seen Smithman. If he was in the scrub ground at any point the chances of that are presumably less. There's also a possibility he went down Rua Primeiro until much further down, turning into Rua Alvernaz at the south edge of the scrub.
This looks like a slightly busier route and therefore less likely, though we don't know how well Smithman knew the town.
The dogs checked the wasteland and didn't find nothing. That fence is quite tall. He may have went the other way (ocean club side) but I don't think he did. I think the route shown in the map is the route that he probably would have taken (the path is a possibility). There's a bin on the west side of the perimeter fence opposite the camera which I think was a possible hiding place for Madeleine which Smithman later ran to in the first searches, retrieved her and went past the camera corner and followed the road straight down to the Smith family sighting. He could run from the apartment to the bin and then quickly walk with Madeleine and be seen by Smith family in only 2 minutes IMO.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 08:34:28 PM
The dogs checked the wasteland and didn't find nothing. That fence is quite tall. He may have went the other way (ocean club side) but I don't think he did. I think the route shown in the map is the route that he probably would have taken (the path is a possibility). There's a bin on the west side of the perimeter fence opposite the camera which I think was a possible hiding place for Madeleine which Smithman later ran to in the first searches, retrieved her and went past the camera corner and followed the road straight down to the Smith family sighting. He could run from the apartment to the bin and then quickly walk with Madeleine and be seen by Smith family in only 2 minutes IMO.
I forgot that the dogs checked this area.
I remember what you said about the bin, though if she wasn't taken til perhaps towards ten o'clock according to the current timeline then Smithman would not be going back and forward, leaving her then retrieving her again....
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
My theory is she was moved from the apartment by Smithman to the bin once everyone had arrived at the tapas bar. So she was moved just after 9pm.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 08, 2013, 09:01:25 PM
An early portuguese press article "On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions" refers to a building on this route
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 08, 2013, 09:03:52 PM
An early portuguese press article "On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions" refers to a building on this route
Which building?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 09:04:03 PM
The source is an article in "Sol" dated 15 September 2007 which was previously easy to find on the internet in original PDF form but now is very difficult to find, however there is a translation at mccannfiles site.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 09:34:11 PM
Thanks Pegasus. Which building is apartment block 'Pedras Brancas'?
Silence has returned to Praia da Luz
By Maria Mateus 15 September 2007
"People are saying they always walked hand in hand, and that he squeezed her hand when she talked too much". Inacio Salgadinho hands out the ticket that allows us to park within the parking lot that belongs to the village hall. He is 77, a man of few words but who doesn't excuse himself from answering the questions that, invariably, are asked by the people who leave their car there, in front of the beach: "Was the girl located? Was it the parents after all? Where is the Ocean Club apartment?"
Initially, he let the journalists park at no cost, but the space was quickly invaded by the media exclusively. "I started demanding the payment from everyone, because the village hall doesn't forgive me, I have to pay them at the end of each month!", he justifies.
The "problem" of journalists doesn't exist anymore. Now, very few are still around, and even these prefer to park around the church. In fact, if it weren't for the half dozen dishes on the satellite-cars and the cameras pointing at the church's main door, nobody would say that Praia da Luz, in the Algarve, had been the stage for the most mediatised police case there ever was in Portugal.
There are no longer photos of Madeleine in the shop windows, or yellow ribbons in the hair and around the wrists. And there are already people who fear the long-term consequences of the case, which the village will suffer: "With time, the English will stop coming here", Jorge Silva, a cook, foresees, and he explains: "We'll be remembered for a bad thing".
Business was good for some cafes and restaurants but nobody wants to admit a big increase in their income because of Maddie's case. Behind the counters, the reply is always the same: "High season here can be felt starting in early May" - precisely when the girl went missing.
Only at the bar of the local supermarket, the Baptista, Elsa Barros admits: "This year, we've had August twice". But she adds: "We usually sell well all year round".
Silence has returned to the village. Because there are less tourists, and because Kate and Gerry don't drag onlookers and the media behind them anymore.
But there is still a restlessness that is no longer due to the sidewalks being crowded and to the noise that came from the generators of the journalists' machinery. The noise is present in the memory of those who live in Luz. "We have a bigger fear of people. We had never heard anything about missing children around here. After this case, we started to be afraid", Celia Rodrigues says, while she irons at the local laundry shop. "My son, who is 11, is still frightened when a stranger looks at him", she adds. And even at school, Silvia Silva continues, "if someone stops and looks into the playground area - it's complicated! We suspect everything and everyone".
Silvia lives at the apartment block 'Pedras Brancas', which was inspected by the Policia Judiciaria (PJ). On the days right after the disappearance of Madeleine, a muffled cry that came from that location raised suspicions.
"On Saturday, around half past midnight, two inspectors from the Judiciaria asked to enter my home. My daughter was four months old back then. They looked at her often, they walked around the bathroom, the kitchen, they even peeked into the laundry basket", she recalls. The reports follow one another on the same subject, because on that night the PJ visited other homes, leaving the inhabitants restless and disturbed. "We didn't want to risk someone watching us talking to the PJ, like it happened with Luis, Robert Murat's friend. After the police talked to him, he never got himself another pool to clean", Silvia remembers.
The truth is that the Madeleine case brought the world unique images from Praia da Luz. The sand beach, the cliffs, the sea, the meandering streets that lead down to the beach, the church that overlooks the ocean - images that introduced an Algarve where one feels like going to. But that is not what people talk about at Luz. There, everybody laments that "we are only known for something so bad".
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 09:40:13 PM
Diligence carried out on couple in Edificio Pedras Brancas, Luz, Lagos 2007.05.09
Responsible Officers: Reis Santos, Inspector Chief, Helder Carmo and Tony Almeida
Description and result: ---At 08H30, it came to the attention of the PJ, from an individual who chose not to identify himself, that the day before yesterday (08/05/07), a couple resident at number *** Edificio Pedras Brancas ' Luz ' Lagos, had conversed, and in the middle of the conversation it appeared to him that they were discussing a child and the possibility of the Police finding her in that place; ---We immediately left for that residence indicated above; ---Upon approaching the residence in question, we were greeted by the owner identified as K*** P***** K*****, born 12/04/1968, in Scarborough ' U.K., holder of a British passport no. ******, and to whom we explained the reason for our visit. He immediately invited the PJ inspectors to enter and to carry out all necessary checks; ---In conversation with K*** K******, he confirmed having had a discussion with his wife and referred to the situation of the missing child and that she had to be found by the police in the Luz area; ---K*** ***** also informed the officers that on 02/05/2007, he was hospitalised due to a right foot fracture; ---He also identified his wife, S****** D***** R*****, - Germany, holder of a German passport, no. **********; ---We looked through the home, and nothing was found.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 08, 2013, 09:47:03 PM
White with blue pathfinder, that diligence was presumably the Sat night (5/6 May)? There was also a smaller different diligence morning of 8th which you found, also other references in the statements files.
P.S. In Sol article the original text of noise was "um choro abafado" and the day and time of resulting PJ diligence was "no sábado, por volta da meia noite e meia". So presumably that means very late Saturday night???
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 09, 2013, 01:12:02 AM
Responsible Officers: Reis Santos, Inspector Chief, Helder Carmo and Tony Almeida
Description and result: ---At 08H30, it came to the attention of the PJ, from an individual who chose not to identify himself, that the day before yesterday (08/05/07), a couple resident at number *** Edificio Pedras Brancas ' Luz ' Lagos, had conversed, and in the middle of the conversation it appeared to him that they were discussing a child and the possibility of the Police finding her in that place; ---We immediately left for that residence indicated above; ---Upon approaching the residence in question, we were greeted by the owner identified as K*** P***** K*****, born 12/04/1968, in Scarborough ' U.K., holder of a British passport no. ******, and to whom we explained the reason for our visit. He immediately invited the PJ inspectors to enter and to carry out all necessary checks; ---In conversation with K*** K******, he confirmed having had a discussion with his wife and referred to the situation of the missing child and that she had to be found by the police in the Luz area; ---K*** ***** also informed the officers that on 02/05/2007, he was hospitalised due to a right foot fracture; ---He also identified his wife, S****** D***** R*****, - Germany, holder of a German passport, no. **********; ---We looked through the home, and nothing was found.
What does this mean? Is it just a bad translation?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 10, 2013, 12:32:08 AM
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 10, 2013, 12:42:28 AM
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 12:14:19 PM
If Smithman is an innocent father with child, then why would he be walking that way at that time? One possibility may arises from parking. What if the parking spaces on Rua 25 Abril, and on the lanes reached by going down those steps, are generally fully occupied at 10pm? If so, it is possible that an innocent father returning home by vehicle might park in the parking area on the left in the last photo in post above ( http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg ) and then walk downhill to their home (presumably a short distance south of R. 25 Abr). The hypothesis depends on the rules for this parking area.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on December 11, 2013, 12:19:59 PM
If Smithman is an innocent father with child, then why would he be walking that way at that time? One possibility may arises from parking. What if the parking spaces on Rua 25 Abril, and on the lanes reached by going down those steps, are generally fully occupied at 10pm? If so, it is possible that an innocent father returning home by vehicle might park in the parking area on the left in the last photo in post above ( http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg ) and then walk downhill to their home (presumably a short distance south of R. 25 Abr). The hypothesis depends on the rules for this parking area.
I suppose anything is possible. After all, it took Tannerman over six years to decide go come forward.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 12:25:02 PM
Another possibility: In same photo ( http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9058/zvk9.jpg ) could the small rectangular structure (to the right of the bins) be a bus shelter? If so then it is possible an innocent father with child gets off bus and walks downhill to their home. The location of bus stops and whether there is a bus arriving at about 10pm might easily be checked.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 11, 2013, 01:06:01 PM
That's why they'll be checking all phone records but I think this would've been kept secret from anyone. Too much to lose if found out.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: twisted on December 11, 2013, 01:38:44 PM
Another terrible possibility. Smithman LIVES on the route from Ocean Club to sighting. He snatches Madeleine around 21.45. Is at his home on route by 21.50. Abuses the little girl who then screams. You can figure the rest. Moves the body quickly towards ocean. The abductor almost certainly, IMO, speaks English. How else would he have found out about the lax checking?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 11, 2013, 02:10:03 PM
Another terrible possibility. Smithman LIVES on the route from Ocean Club to sighting. He snatches Madeleine around 21.45. Is at his home on route by 21.50. Abuses the little girl who then screams. You can figure the rest. Moves the body quickly towards ocean. The abductor almost certainly, IMO, speaks English. How else would he have found out about the lax checking?
Smithman who by shear coincidence happens to bare a passing resemblance to Gerry McCann, speaks English & lives near the Ocean Club, has an overwhelming urge to abduct one specific child from her bed & carries out a detailed surveillance on a holiday groups child care arrangements in order to fulfill his desire.
Once he has carried out his terrible deed he returns to his usual life & despite having been so successful in his previous act he never re offends in his local area again.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2013, 02:44:54 PM
Smithman is indeed very interesting and the key to unlocking this case. Hey Pegasus, the keys to the church were received on Tue 8 May. Have you any plans of the church? What's underneath it? Were there any reports of any bad smells there or just rumours?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
I am not sure if the keys were given Tue or a previous day. They were visited by both denominations sooner than that. Have no plans of church and no indication of catacombs cellars or secret tunnels. There are several modern circular drain outlets on the shore. On the rocks at the small beach below the fortaleza there is an old big rectangular drain outlet there is a photo somewhere of two exsoldier searchers checking it but I don't know where it drains from.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2013, 03:36:33 PM
Thanks. I've seen the pipe picture with the soldiers. I'm wanting to know if there is a cellar or access to a room underneath the church? Sat 12 May Madeleine's 4th Birthday at Church. Any reports of bad smells?
p.s. Sat 5th May when Patricia Cameron arrived. She said they had a car to use. It would be interesting to know which car that was in light of the Carolyn Kish discrepancy sighting on the 7 May?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 06:14:24 PM
At the small beach it is not a pipe, it looks much older, see the last outlet here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id340.html
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2013, 06:46:22 PM
Thanks see church thread. Keep it on that one.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 15, 2013, 05:11:21 PM
"almost certain" is no speculation, DCI RW said it and it's certainly not equal to "certain".
didn't you say annne that by law no cctv cameras can be pointed towards the street in portugal
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 15, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
But in that case why would Amaral have made such a strong point about the missing tape?
perhaps anne could explain
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 15, 2013, 07:23:06 PM
But in that case why would Amaral have made such a strong point about the missing tape?
I don't think he made such a strong point. The camera was pointing to the access of some private property. Doing this it had to catch a part of the street. What if Smithman walked on the other side ?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 15, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
I don't think he made such a strong point. The camera was pointing to the access of some private property. Doing this it had to catch a part of the street. What if Smithman walked on the other side ?
oh you did anne
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 16, 2013, 12:03:01 AM
I don't think he made such a strong point. The camera was pointing to the access of some private property. Doing this it had to catch a part of the street. What if Smithman walked on the other side ?
I'm confused, Anne.
Dr Amaral talks on camera about this CCTV, as recorded in more than one documentary on this topic. (Sorry I am very busy tonight and don't have time to look them up).
Numerous stills exist of him photographed underneath the camera, lamenting the fact that his officers got there too late.
Isn't that the topic of this thread?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 01:57:05 AM
Dr Amaral talks on camera about this CCTV, as recorded in more than one documentary on this topic. (Sorry I am very busy tonight and don't have time to look them up).
Numerous stills exist of him photographed underneath the camera, lamenting the fact that his officers got there too late.
Isn't that the topic of this thread?
I never read a tabloid nor the pale Portuguese copy of it (O CdM), all I can say is that I never heard Mr Amaral speak of that CCTV as being a crucial point, possibly because the function of this private camera isn't to spot the whole street but the access from the street. Until Mr Smith called, nobody knew that a carrier had been seen at the bottom of this road. Ms Tanner had from the very beginning attracted the attention on a carrier walking towards the opposite direction. CCTVs are prohibited in the public space in Portugal. But private properties have a right to CCTV their accesses.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 16, 2013, 03:15:10 AM
I never read a tabloid nor the pale Portuguese copy of it (O CdM), all I can say is that I never heard Mr Amaral speak of that CCTV as being a crucial point, possibly because the function of this private camera isn't to spot the whole street but the access from the street. Until Mr Smith called, nobody knew that a carrier had been seen at the bottom of this road. Ms Tanner had from the very beginning attracted the attention on a carrier walking towards the opposite direction. CCTVs are prohibited in the public space in Portugal. But private properties have a right to CCTV their accesses.
I am looking for the documentary in which I first learned of Amaral's comments on the camera.
Here is something in its place, meanwhile. The Express might not be literary enough for some, but the article here does contain what appear to be direct quotes from Amaral regarding his belief that the camera, property of the Estrela da Luz hotel, captured Smithman on his walk.
Those comments always struck me as significant because it is in their context that Amaral openly admits to his officers having made mistakes. He laments the fact that his officers got to the tape too late, after it had been recorded over.
(For ref: Here is the link. Forgot to include in initial posting: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 16, 2013, 07:07:26 AM
SH and Anne, the following links about the use of CCTV in Portugal may be of use to you...
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 12:04:18 PM
Thank you, Myster ! The first link has broken links unfortunately or working links that have nothing to do with the matter. But the second link is interesting, it shows that the private use (there's no public use except for high roads and cameras spot cars, not persons) of CCTVs is regulated : "it is not enough that workers witness the installation of the system because (…) this duty includes information about the purpose of the recordings, its scope, in terms of sound and image, as well as the display of a written warning, in addition to information on the period of time of conservation of the recordings". I'm not sure that the private CCTV of the Estrela da Luz resort could spot the whole Escola Primaria street without a very large angle that would deform any image. Its purpose wasn't to spot fathers carrying their child back home but cars forcing the entrance to the resort, for instance. If by chance the camera had spotted a child carrier who didn't enter in the resort, the image provided would hardly be usable like evidence. The exception would be crime prevention, security of individuals and property and as long as it is not considered an invasion of private life. When the instruction judge, Pedro Frias, refused to the MP, the access to Mr McCann's deleted cell phone records, invasion of private life was the motive. Nevertheless I guess that if the life of a person was at stake, the judge would have accepted.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 12:06:37 PM
Those comments always struck me as significant because it is in their context that Amaral openly admits to his officers having made mistakes. He laments the fact that his officers got to the tape too late, after it had been recorded over.
If you hunting mea culpa from the PJ, I can provide you with some... as well as intern critical views. Nobody's perfect, even in Portugal !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: icabodcrane on December 16, 2013, 01:33:16 PM
When the instruction judge, Pedro Frias, refused to the MP, the access to Mr McCann's deleted cell phone records, invasion of private life was the motive. Nevertheless I guess that if the life of a person was at stake, the judge would have accepted.
Sorry to snip your post Anne, but I was struck by this last point you made
I was not aware that the Portuguese police ( under privacy laws ) were denied access to the McCanns deleted phone records
Would Scotland Yard be be so restricted, do we know ?
I recall reading that an important facet of the Yard's investigation was 'a forensic' study of phone records ... would that include information that was previously inaccessible, I wonder
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2013, 02:17:08 PM
@ Myster
Thanks for those links. Interesting. From the first one:
Territorial privacy Video surveillance
Law 207/200517 sets the means of any electronic (including video) surveillance for road safety used by law enforcement agencies.18 The system is limited to specific and determined purposes: catching traffic infractions, traffic control, locating stolen or illegal vehicles, and use as evidence of a crime.19 The installation of the surveillance methods should be directed, as much as possible, to capture images of vehicles.20 Information from the system may be released for didactic and statistical purposes, as long as no individuals or vehicles are identifiable.21 The CNPD published a clarification in response to many inquiries concerning the surveillance.22 The clarification states that according to the law these systems do not need CNPD approval. The equipment should be registered with the CNPD, and the make, model, and serial number of the surveillance equipment used is published on the CNPD website.
In 2006, Law 51/2006 on the use of video surveillance to monitor traffic as well as other incidents entered into force.23 That law grants permission to "Estradas de Portugal" (Roads of Portugal) to install roadway video surveillance equipment in the interests of road safety. All such installation is subjected, however, to the terms of Act No. 67/98, particularly the requirement of prior notification to the CNPD.
In August 2007, Portugal published a new law punishing improper handling of visual data with fines up to EUR 10,000 and directed captured images to be deleted if the threat did not actually materialise.24
In October 2008, three Portuguese cities were authorised to be equipped with CCTV cameras.25
On 14 July 2008, the CNPD issued an opinion on the use of video surveillance and set down conditions, including: using the system at night if possible, not recording sound, and preventing private houses from being recorded.26
I don't see where it says that cameras can't be used on streets... The issue concerning restrictions seems to be the use that is actually made such images, as it is in many countries.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2013, 02:19:11 PM
I am looking for the documentary in which I first learned of Amaral's comments on the camera.
Here is something in its place, meanwhile. The Express might not be literary enough for some, but the article here does contain what appear to be direct quotes from Amaral regarding his belief that the camera, property of the Estrela da Luz hotel, captured Smithman on his walk.
Those comments always struck me as significant because it is in their context that Amaral openly admits to his officers having made mistakes. He laments the fact that his officers got to the tape too late, after it had been recorded over.
Why does he blame his officers? He was the coordinator...
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 02:24:23 PM
In October 2008, three Portuguese cities were authorised to be equipped with CCTV cameras.25
On 14 July 2008, the CNPD issued an opinion on the use of video surveillance and set down conditions, including: using the system at night if possible, not recording sound, and preventing private houses from being recorded.26[/i]
I don't see where it says that cameras can't be used on streets... The issue concerning restrictions seems to be the use that is actually made such images, as it is in many countries.
Haven't you seen that the link 25 sends to a page with no information on this and that the link 26 goes nowhere ? CCTVs aren't allowed in Portugal. And that's good !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 02:42:36 PM
Sorry to snip your post Anne, but I was struck by this last point you made
I was not aware that the Portuguese police ( under privacy laws ) were denied access to the McCanns deleted phone records
Would Scotland Yard be be so restricted, do we know ?
I recall reading that an important facet of the Yard's investigation was 'a forensic' study of phone records ... would that include information that was previously inaccessible, I wonder
On the 21 of September, the instruction judge Pedro Frias rejected the request of the MP for access to the content of the messages sent and received by the group around the 3rd of May, with the justification that the allowance couldn't be retroactive. But, as the investigation was on an homicide, an abduction, a risky neglect or a concealment of cadaver, the three first crimes being sanctioned by more than 3 years of jail, and as it was important to determine when the child disappeared exactly and where were and what were doing the persons who were close to her, in order to confirm or exclude their involvement in the matter investigated, the judge authorized access to the list of calls received and sent by the group between the 28th of April and the 9th of September 2007. The MP launched an appeal in the Evora Court and lost it on 29th of April 2008. I've no idea if SY is entitled to bypass that.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 02:54:02 PM
A poster repaired the link 25 : Big Brother will be watching you... in News · 25-10-2008 00:00:00 · 0 Comments
Public CCTV surveillance cameras have been authorized for three Portuguese cities, Oporto, Portimão and Fátima, a pioneering step in Portugal’s safety. @)(++(* A Home Affairs office source confirmed that the Ribeira do Porto, Praia da Rocha parking lot (Portimão), and Fátima’s Sanctuary have all been authorised to be equipped with CCTV systems. The same source confirmed more requests are being looked into from the councils of Coimbra, Bragança and Lisbon. CCTV systems in public places are only authorised by the Home Affairs office after the National Committee for Data Protection gives its approval. 2 private places.. The CCTV of the Ribeira of Porto (historical centre) were asked by an association. I don't know if they still exist. It was a one year experience in 2009. http://www.jn.pt/paginainicial/pais/concelho.aspx?Distrito=Porto&Concelho=Porto&Option=Interior&content_id=1406031 (http://www.jn.pt/paginainicial/pais/concelho.aspx?Distrito=Porto&Concelho=Porto&Option=Interior&content_id=1406031)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 16, 2013, 02:55:18 PM
Thank you, Myster ! The first link has broken links unfortunately or working links that have nothing to do with the matter. But the second link is interesting, it shows that the private use (there's no public use except for high roads and cameras spot cars, not persons) of CCTVs is regulated : "it is not enough that workers witness the installation of the system because (…) this duty includes information about the purpose of the recordings, its scope, in terms of sound and image, as well as the display of a written warning, in addition to information on the period of time of conservation of the recordings". I'm not sure that the private CCTV of the Estrela da Luz resort could spot the whole Escola Primaria street without a very large angle that would deform any image. Its purpose wasn't to spot fathers carrying their child back home but cars forcing the entrance to the resort, for instance. If by chance the camera had spotted a child carrier who didn't enter in the resort, the image provided would hardly be usable like evidence. The exception would be crime prevention, security of individuals and property and as long as it is not considered an invasion of private life. When the instruction judge, Pedro Frias, refused to the MP, the access to Mr McCann's deleted cell phone records, invasion of private life was the motive. Nevertheless I guess that if the life of a person was at stake, the judge would have accepted.
This is certainly the impression we gather, considering Portuguese law on the matter.
Odd then that Amaral seems to be adamant that crucial information has been lost.
Not only that, he is very forward in conceding that his officers were negligent in not discovering the camera before the tape had been taped over.
Why so readily admit a flaw in his investigation when there was no information to be gleaned anyway?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 16, 2013, 02:59:23 PM
Haven't you seen that the link 25 sends to a page with no information on this and that the link 26 goes nowhere ? CCTVs aren't allowed in Portugal. And that's good !
Could you help to find where it is stated that CCTVs or surveillance cameras aren't allowed in Portugal? How are roads monitored for traffic accidents, for example?
What would you classify the webcams (links at the top of this forum) as?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 16, 2013, 04:24:46 PM
I imagine that it was because a child was missing and any chance of information was to be grabbed, no matter how slim that chance was.
Yes I suppose that's right, Cariad.
And if there had been some footage, however incomplete, it may have contained at least something of use to us.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 16, 2013, 04:32:47 PM
At that time we were told the same old story that CCTV is not allowed in Portugal. That is patently untrue.
We were told by Montclair that the camera was not pointing to the road but nothing was posted to support that rather odd idea.
We were of course reminded that Amaral himself tells us the PJ failed completely to get hold of the recording before it was wiped. But we are not told precisely how long it took them to get all the way round the corner (about 200 metres) to notice this rather obvious CCTV camera and request the images.
Now we are being told that the camera probably did not cover enough of the street to be of value. But once again nothing is posted to support that guesswork.
To summarise all we do know is that CCTV footage was available which may or may not have assisted in the search for this little girl and that the local police force according to the officer responsible for coordination failed to retrieve that footage. Their error and theirs alone.
If the camera had been pointing outwards (as almost all security cameras of this type do) then it may have recorded something of critical value. If it was pointing inwards at the complex then it would at least have given an accurate timing for the Smith return to the complex.
No weasel words or random guesswork as to what may or may not have been the coverage of the camera can gloss over the fact that a potentially valuable resource was missed by the PJ. It was but one of the appalling errors of the team coordinated by Amaral, the senior detective who was later thrown off the case because he overstepped the mark and spoke out of turn.
eta It was even suggested on that previous thread, in a rather futile attempt to mitigate the damage this failure on the part of the PJ might have done to the search, that the PJ may have concentrated on CCTV closer to the crime scene. Rather laughable when according to Anne Guedes there is virtually no CCTV in the country and rather laughable when it is considered that this glaringly obvious pole is a mere 200 metres away where a missing child could have been carried, could have wandered or ....
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 16, 2013, 06:19:20 PM
At that time we were told the same old story that CCTV is not allowed in Portugal. That is patently untrue.
We were told by Montclair that the camera was not pointing to the road but nothing was posted to support that rather odd idea.
We were of course reminded that Amaral himself tells us the PJ failed completely to get hold of the recording before it was wiped. But we are not told precisely how long it took them to get all the way round the corner (about 200 metres) to notice this rather obvious CCTV camera and request the images.
Now we are being told that the camera probably did not cover enough of the street to be of value. But once again nothing is posted to support that guesswork.
To summarise all we do know is that CCTV footage was available which may or may not have assisted in the search for this little girl and that the local police force according to the officer responsible for coordination failed to retrieve that footage. Their error and theirs alone.
No weasel words or random guesswork as to what may or may not have been the coverage of the camera can gloss over the fact that a potentially valuable resource was missed by the PJ. It was but one of the appalling errors of the team coordinated by Amaral, the senior detective who was later thrown off the case because he overstepped the mark and spoke out of turn.
Yes & let's not forget either that e fits of the man who may or may not have been caught on that camera were "shut away in a private investigation file for 5 years" & "now British police are treating them with the utmost importance".
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: jassi on December 16, 2013, 06:23:08 PM
One is making the assumption, of course, that the camera was actually working at that time. It is surprising how often crucial footage can be absent due to camera malfunction.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: mitch on December 16, 2013, 06:43:35 PM
One is making the assumption, of course, that the camera was actually working at that time. It is surprising how often crucial footage can be absent due to camera malfunction.
hi jassi
it is a big assumption to right. a poster made the point earlier in the thread that mr amaral didn't make a big deal about the camera but that is not how i read the article. from my reading of it he was devastated when he found out about the smiths reported sighting and when he added up the dots and walked the route he was furious that a delay in reporting meant that the old footage from the camera had been over recorded.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 06:47:02 PM
Could you help to find where it is stated that CCTVs or surveillance cameras aren't allowed in Portugal? How are roads monitored for traffic accidents, for example?
What would you classify the webcams (links at the top of this forum) as?
Sure I can help, Carana, just read this : public CCTVs aren't allowed in Portugal. There are CCTVs in self service gas stations on highways to monitor cars . Traffic accidents would require a camera every 50m to spot an eventual crash. And please don't think that Portugal, once more, is special. France doesn't accept CCTV in the public area. Private entities have CCTVs, but as I posted above, they are submitted to a strict regulation.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 06:50:40 PM
At that time we were told the same old story that CCTV is not allowed in Portugal. That is patently untrue.
No.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 06:53:14 PM
We were of course reminded that Amaral himself tells us the PJ failed completely to get hold of the recording before it was wiped.
No. Kindly avoid tabloids if you pretend to be correctly informed.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Redblossom on December 16, 2013, 06:54:47 PM
Do police forces normally seize any and all cctv tapes in existence around a crime scene? How far out do they go? (Are all cctv cameras registered with police?)
Or do they pinpoint those of immediate interest based on information and leads?
GA does say he asked all cctv footage to be collected around the village but his officers never got to that particular one in time
When he asked for that is not known..its not something that would appear in the files, only the results of such exercises, if any
Unless the PJ were to seize any and all cctv footage immediately or asap there is every chance this footage if it existed could have been wiped over asap as..no one knows what the roll was in that hotels camera, it may have been deleted the same night or the next day or even before may 3
Dont forget the PJ never had the Smiths evidence for over a week.....who knows if their efforts were trained in retrieving cctv camera footage as a priority in that >>>>>>> direction vis a vis the Tanner sighting rather than <<<<< in the Smiths direction which they had no inkling of at the time
Im thinking GA regretted not acting fast enough in collecting any and all and was a lost opportunity, nothing more nothing less, just my take, a possibility that could have helped but by no means any gaurantee of anything really lost
No police force is perfect....
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 06:56:35 PM
To summarise all we do know is that CCTV footage was available which may or may not have assisted in the search for this little girl and that the local police force according to the officer responsible for coordination failed to retrieve that footage. Their error and theirs alone.
No. Are you aware of an ignorance that should advise you not to judge ?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 06:59:29 PM
No weasel words or random guesswork as to what may or may not have been the coverage of the camera can gloss over the fact that a potentially valuable resource was missed by the PJ. It was but one of the appalling errors of the team coordinated by Amaral, the senior detective who was later thrown off the case because he overstepped the mark and spoke out of turn.
Blame Mr Amaral, your obsession ! @)(++(*
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 07:01:20 PM
Rather laughable when according to Anne Guedes there is virtually no CCTV in the country
Instead of attacking me, kindly provide a link denying what I said.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: mitch on December 16, 2013, 07:12:47 PM
mr amaral had no reason to believe an abductor on foot would walk so far with a abducted child in his arms and I still don't believe it since there was every chance that they would be seen and challenged.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2013, 07:22:34 PM
Sure I can help, Carana, just read this : public CCTVs aren't allowed in Portugal. There are CCTVs in self service gas stations on highways to monitor cars . Traffic accidents would require a camera every 50m to spot an eventual crash. And please don't think that Portugal, once more, is special. France doesn't accept CCTV in the public area. Private entities have CCTVs, but as I posted above, they are submitted to a strict regulation.
'Vidéoprotection' ...or Big Brother? Connexion edition: March 2011
Privacy campaigners are worried about a nationwide plan to treble the number of public CCTV cameras in cities, towns and villages across France.
President Sarkozy wants 2011 to be the year that "vidéoprotection" goes mainstream, and has set a target of 60,000 cameras watching public spaces around the country by the end of this year, up from the current 20,000.
Nice has recently led the way by installing hundreds of cameras linked to a state-of-the-art surveillance centre, and Paris is set to follow. The word videosurveillance is rarely used, with public officials preferring terms such as vidéoprotection, vidéoprévention and even vidéotranquillité.
However, the biggest growth has been in the private use of CCTV. The French data protection authority, Cnil (the Commission nationale de l'informatique et des libertés) says it is aware of more than 400,000 privately run CCTV cameras in France. Cnil is concerned that the safeguards in place to protect people cannot cope with a sharp rise in the use of videosurveillance.
Despite this, Cnil research suggests that 71 per cent of French people approve the idea of videosurveillance in public places. Jean-Claude Vitran, a member of the Ligue des Droits de l'Homme and the group's national campaigner on CCTV, fears people are coming to accept that France is "becoming a surveillance society".
Mr Vitran said: "The state is lying when it uses the word vidéoprotection; video has never protected anyone. When you install a camera, the crime moves elsewhere. Criminals put on a crash helmet or balaclava: they're not idiots."
The interior ministry has previously said it is keen to avoid the "Anglo-Saxon" approach to CCTV, and France is certainly still a long way behind the UK, which has four million cameras.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 07:31:50 PM
Do police forces normally seize any and all cctv tapes in existence around a crime scene? How far out do they go? (Are all cctv cameras registered with police?)
Or do they pinpoint those of immediate interest based on information and leads?
GA does say he asked all cctv footage to be collected around the village but his officers never got to that particular one in time
When he asked for that is not known..its not something that would appear in the files, only the results of such exercises, if any
Unless the PJ were to seize any and all cctv footage immediately or asap there is every chance this footage if it existed could have been wiped over asap as..no one knows what the roll was in that hotels camera, it may have been deleted the same night or the next day or even before may 3
Dont forget the PJ never had the Smiths evidence for over a week.....who knows if their efforts were trained in retrieving cctv camera footage as a priority in that >>>>>>> direction vis a vis the Tanner sighting rather than <<<<< in the Smiths direction which they had no inkling of at the time
Im thinking GA regretted not acting fast enough in collecting any and all and was a lost opportunity, nothing more nothing less, just my take, a possibility that could have helped but by no means any gaurantee of anything really lost
No police force is perfect....
I agree very much with this post.
Moita Flores is much more critical than posters here about the PJ's losing opportunities, but the CCTV isn't one of them. Had it shown a man carrying a child, this evidence couldn't be used in court. The Kelly's tickets have all an indication of the time it was registered. The Smith then remembered what they drank, who drank and who paid. Mr Rebelo did find necessary to interview them on that topic or if he did the rog letter got lost.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 07:39:01 PM
President Sarkozy wants 2011 to be the year that "vidéoprotection" goes mainstream, and has set a target of 60,000 cameras watching public spaces around the country by the end of this year, up from the current 20,000.
Yes, but Nicolas Sarkozy wasn't re-elected.. and, these days, no parliamentary commission is studying such a project.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 16, 2013, 07:41:00 PM
mr amaral had no reason to believe an abductor on foot would walk so far with a abducted child in his arms and I still don't believe it since there was every chance that they would be seen and challenged.
Nobody would dream of such an abduction type, you're perfectly right !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2013, 08:44:32 PM
"the current 20,000" and that was back in 2011. Are we being asked to believe that they have all been dismantled? If so, please provide the proof. Are we to believe that none of these 20,000 existed in 2007? If so please provide the evidence.
eta This page shows that those 20,000 cameras actually existed in 2008.
and this page refers to the growing number of cameras in France (2013) and specifically refers to them being used to monitor public places to catch those who allow dogs to foul the pavements or who park on pavements.
The claim that "France doesn't accept CCTV in the public area" is to put it bluntly, a complete untruth and beyond that is quite daft.
When people make rather silly claims such as that they do themselves no credit at all.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: gilet on December 16, 2013, 10:05:54 PM
To be accurate the regulations in France for the positioning of PUBLIC CCTV cameras (cameras de surveillance) allow for their use (with authorisation) for all the following reasons (from the official government source).
Installation reasons for CCTV
Watching a public place may be authorized in the following cases:
protection of buildings and public facilities and their surroundings,
useful safeguard national defense installations,
regulation of traffic flows,
finding of violations of traffic rules,
prevention of harm to the safety of persons and property in areas particularly exposed to the risk of assault, theft or drug trafficking,
prevention of acts of terrorism,
prevention of natural and technological risks,
relief to people and defense against fire,
Security welcoming the public in amusement parks facilities.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 16, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
mr amaral had no reason to believe an abductor on foot would walk so far with a abducted child in his arms and I still don't believe it since there was every chance that they would be seen and challenged.
Correct if Matt Oldfield had gone in to the bedroom at 9.30 he would have found Madeleine missing IMO. I believe that camera would have caught Smithman and the child if the range went that far.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2013, 10:55:47 PM
What is Luckman going on about if, as he stated, Amaral was upset that his officers hadn't got those CCTV images that might have shown someone carrying a child in that direction if CCTV images couldn't or shouldn't have shown anything on a street?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 12:14:34 AM
You are incredibly obstinate, Carana ! It's amazing ! I have nevertheless to thank you for teaching me something. I didn't know of this videocontrol, I ignored it depended on local collectivities and is very variable (Marseille, a city with a highest rate of murders, has a few cameras only!) I see that the Court of Accounts made a very negative report on them and I'm glad they did (this is a very high institution) because those cameras mean going back to before the age of Enlightenment.
Nicolas Sarkozy was the president of France in 2010. If you could have a good translation of those articles, you would see the benefit of those cameras is almost nul. And they cost a fortune. In which state are they now ? I've never seen someone being arrested after being spotted by a public CCTV in France. Recently (end of November) a man threatened to kill in various places in Paris and almost killed a Liberation photographer, he was spotted by a camera of that newspaper, but he was identified and arrested thanks to DNA !
Have you got a link about CCTVs in public spaces in Portugal ? I'm not sure too that Portugal has money for it....
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 12:20:38 AM
The sightings of the Smith family are much more precise than any image from the resort CCTV could eventually (Smithman was going on the left side, as Peter Smith stated) have caught : an image of Smithman's back.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 17, 2013, 02:51:48 PM
You are incredibly obstinate, Carana ! It's amazing ! I have nevertheless to thank you for teaching me something. I didn't know of this videocontrol, I ignored it depended on local collectivities and is very variable (Marseille, a city with a highest rate of murders, has a few cameras only!) I see that the Court of Accounts made a very negative report on them and I'm glad they did (this is a very high institution) because those cameras mean going back to before the age of Enlightenment.
Nicolas Sarkozy was the president of France in 2010. If you could have a good translation of those articles, you would see the benefit of those cameras is almost nul. And they cost a fortune. In which state are they now ? I've never seen someone being arrested after being spotted by a public CCTV in France. Recently (end of November) a man threatened to kill in various places in Paris and almost killed a Liberation photographer, he was spotted by a camera of that newspaper, but he was identified and arrested thanks to DNA !
Have you got a link about CCTVs in public spaces in Portugal ? I'm not sure too that Portugal has money for it....
We seem to have agreed that surveillance cameras do, indeed, exist in France, contrary to your previous assertion. Mistakes happen, we all make them.
Concerning Portugal, I would have thought that those who have asserted that CCTV / video surveillance in public areas in Portugal does not exist, or is illegal should be able to provide objective information on the matter.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Luz on December 17, 2013, 03:48:20 PM
The PJ Coordinator in the Madeleine case, Dr Gonçalo Amaral, was pictured in front of a hotel's CCTV camera which he claims captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine on the night she disappeared. Unfortunately though, he claims that his officers failed to identify this camera and by the time he found it the hotel had deleted the recordings.
(http://i.imgur.com/DrwTEhg.jpg)
Former PJ Coordinator Dr Amaral pictured in front of the elusive CCTV camera. 8((()*/
Amaral never said it captured the "image of the man carrying Madeleine"... What he said was that if there was anyone carrying Madeleine down the street below, that cam would have captured it.
Since that recording was never retrieved there's no point in speculating around it, in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2013, 03:55:13 PM
Amaral never said it captured the "image of the man carrying Madeleine"... What he said was that if there was anyone carrying Madeleine down the street below, that cam would have captured it.
Since that recording was never retrieved there's no point in speculating around it, in my humble opinion.
Then what was the point of him standing under it for this article? He blamed his officers for not having retrieved the images in time, when he was the coordinator. Did he order them to do so in due time or not? If not, why is he blaming his subordinates?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 17, 2013, 04:01:29 PM
Do police forces normally seize any and all cctv tapes in existence around a crime scene? How far out do they go? (Are all cctv cameras registered with police?)
Or do they pinpoint those of immediate interest based on information and leads?
GA does say he asked all cctv footage to be collected around the village but his officers never got to that particular one in time
When he asked for that is not known..its not something that would appear in the files, only the results of such exercises, if any
Unless the PJ were to seize any and all cctv footage immediately or asap there is every chance this footage if it existed could have been wiped over asap as..no one knows what the roll was in that hotels camera, it may have been deleted the same night or the next day or even before may 3
Dont forget the PJ never had the Smiths evidence for over a week.....who knows if their efforts were trained in retrieving cctv camera footage as a priority in that >>>>>>> direction vis a vis the Tanner sighting rather than <<<<< in the Smiths direction which they had no inkling of at the time
Im thinking GA regretted not acting fast enough in collecting any and all and was a lost opportunity, nothing more nothing less, just my take, a possibility that could have helped but by no means any gaurantee of anything really lost
No police force is perfect....
Indeed, the Smith family sighting was not reported for over a week - but that wouldn't have prevented police from looking at the camera earlier.
An hotel located 200m, as gilet says, from 5A, would surely be a very obvious place to investigate.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 17, 2013, 04:06:42 PM
Of course it may be that Smithman - assuming he was an abductor, that is - was familiar with the town, did his research, and carefully avoided walking past the camera.
It doesn't really tally with the general brazenness with which he was acting otherwise, though it is a possibility.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Benice on December 17, 2013, 04:14:40 PM
Indeed, the Smith family sighting was not reported for over a week - but that wouldn't have prevented police from looking at the camera earlier.
An hotel located 200m, as gilet says, from 5A, would surely be a very obvious place to investigate.
JT's sighting was reported soon after the GNR arrived on the 3rd. That sighting should have triggered immediate action by the PJ regarding any cameras in the vicinity imo.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2013, 04:17:39 PM
Of course it may be that Smithman - assuming he was an abductor, that is - was familiar with the town, did his research, and carefully avoided walking past the camera.
It doesn't really tally with the general brazenness with which he was acting otherwise, though it is a possibility.
Perhaps Smithman did avoid CCTV cameras. But how many did the police actually have to check in this sleepy village? And what were the results of those in the timeframe in question?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: jassi on December 17, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
JT's sighting was reported soon after the GNR arrived on the 3rd. That sighting should have triggered immediate action by the PJ regarding any cameras in the vicinity imo.
I thought Tannerman was supposed to be heading in the other direction.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 04:25:20 PM
Indeed this article is perfectly clear that Anne Guedes' claim about CCTV in public places is utterly incorrect.
I was wrong saying France managed to resist to the security utopia syndrome. 13 years after the UK the contagion reached France, under presidency of Nicolas Sarkozy. At least there are (yet) no cameras in streets without other purpose than to be there just in case. A strong and justified motive is needed.
Gilet, as irresistibly rude as usual, is carefully omitting the rights of the public. The cameras must be very visible and their presence has to be clearly signalized. They therefore have at best a dissuading effect, they don't suppress delinquency, they shift it towards areas without control. Here is a very interesting study (2005) about the impact of CCTVs and their real effectiveness. It is the second meta-analysis (the first was in 2002) financed by the HO but realized by an independent entity. It's really worthwhile reading. https://www.cctvusergroup.com/downloads/file/Martin%20gill.pdf (https://www.cctvusergroup.com/downloads/file/Martin%20gill.pdf)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Benice on December 17, 2013, 04:32:49 PM
I thought Tannerman was supposed to be heading in the other direction.
It wouldn't make any difference which direction he was heading in at that stage. Knowing that a man had been seen carrying a child which could have been Madeleine should have been enough to order a check on any cameras in the surrounding area as a matter of urgency imo.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 04:34:35 PM
I thought Tannerman was supposed to be heading in the other direction.
Yes, he was walking towards east, just turning his back to the famous CCTV of the Estrela da Luz resort. As he was walking, they could have run in the same direction as soon as Ms Tanner told the group her sighting.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 04:38:47 PM
The localisation of Mrs Murat's villa was a misfortune for Mr Murat. Tannerman, as he was walking carrying a child in a tiring position was bound to go nearby. From the 5A and in the direction followed by Tannerman, the villa seemed to be the perfect place.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Benice on December 17, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
I was wrong saying France managed to resist to the security utopia syndrome. 13 years after the UK the contagion reached France, under presidency of Nicolas Sarkozy. At least there are (yet) no cameras in streets without other purpose than to be there just in case. A strong and justified motive is needed.
Gilet, as irresistibly rude as usual, is carefully omitting the rights of the public. The cameras must be very visible and their presence has to be clearly signalized. They therefore have at best a dissuading effect, they don't suppress delinquency, they shift it towards areas without control. Here is a very interesting study (2005) about the impact of CCTVs and their real effectiveness. It is the second meta-analysis (the first was in 2002) financed by the HO but realized by an independent entity. It's really worthwhile reading. https://www.cctvusergroup.com/downloads/file/Martin%20gill.pdf (https://www.cctvusergroup.com/downloads/file/Martin%20gill.pdf)
It is not rude to point out that a statement is incorrect if it is proved to be just that.
Your own comment about Gilet is both rude and totally uncalled for. IMO
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 04:44:16 PM
Which ones ? Do you have a map with their localisation and indication of type of monitoring ? To make the cameras move and change their spotting angle, someone has to watch the monitor.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 04:46:05 PM
Then what was the point of him standing under it for this article? He blamed his officers for not having retrieved the images in time, when he was the coordinator. Did he order them to do so in due time or not? If not, why is he blaming his subordinates?
Can you provide a link to Mr Amaral blaming his subordinates ? Of course no tabloid.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2013, 04:56:52 PM
Can you provide a link to Mr Amaral blaming his subordinates ? Of course no tabloid.
What is John's photo of Amaral under a CCTV based on?
ETA: What is this entire thread based on?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 04:59:36 PM
An hotel located 200m, as gilet says, from 5A, would surely be a very obvious place to investigate.
That's why they likely investigate that place among so many others.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
So what is Amaral doing posing for a tabloid photo under a CCTV?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 05:16:45 PM
Is there a difference between a tabloid camera and any other type of camera?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 05:43:34 PM
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 05:43:54 PM
Is there a difference between a tabloid camera and any other type of camera?
What does Amaral think about that? He posed for it.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2013, 05:48:56 PM
How does the interview with Luckman fit in? Luckman was very supportive of Amaral on the fact that this CCTV footage should have been examined.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 05:50:18 PM
What does Amaral think about that? He posed for it.
He's a very nice boy.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 05:51:11 PM
The PJ Coordinator in the Madeleine case, Dr Gonçalo Amaral, was pictured in front of a hotel's CCTV camera which he claims captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine on the night she disappeared. Unfortunately though, he claims that his officers failed to identify this camera and by the time he found it the hotel had deleted the recordings.
(http://i.imgur.com/DrwTEhg.jpg)
Former PJ Coordinator Dr Amaral pictured in front of the elusive CCTV camera. 8((()*/
Mr Amaral was very clear about the significance of the hotel CCTV camera and was angry that because the Smiths delayed in coming forward the delay resulted in the video footage being lost. It wasn't his officers fault that the film was lost.
It was Amaral's belief that the abductor walked past that hotel on his way to meeting the Smiths a few minutes later and would have been captured by the private CCTV camera.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 07:34:50 PM
Whether is - or isn't - isn't the issue. Did he - or did he not - think that that CCTV could have revealed vital clues?
You were arguing he accepted being photographed, weren't you ? I suggested he was a very nice boy and I was serious. Now you're changing the issue ! I don't know if he thought the CCTV could "have revealed vital clues", I think he lamented more that no photograph of the group was made by the scientific police.. But I know what treatment tabloids do with the information they gather. So one better hears what people have to say than believes the tabloid soup.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 07:36:26 PM
Mr Amaral was very clear about the significance of the hotel CCTV camera and was angry that because the Smiths delayed in coming forward the delay resulted in the video footage being lost. It wasn't his officers fault that the film was lost.
Where have you heard that ?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 17, 2013, 07:40:42 PM
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 07:56:01 PM
Have you not read the article? Why do you think he is standing there anyway?
I read it, I think, when it was published : typical tabloid work. When you're a very nice boy those things happen to you..
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 07:56:45 PM
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Mr Moderator on December 17, 2013, 08:31:42 PM
Its called goading and is unacceptable behaviour wherever it comes from.
Yes and so is criticism of moderators by members who have a long history of warnings for inappropriate postings.
If a member doesn't want to answer a question that is their prerogative. Repeated bumping and goading will achieve nothing.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 17, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
Paul Luckman, editor of 'The Portugal News', describes to Sky's Robert Nisbet the route Madeleine McCann's abductor is thought to have taken.
Quote re Goncalo Amaral...
"He is convinced that whoever was carrying the child walked down this road..."
"He was furious that his officers never found that camera..."
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 17, 2013, 09:16:39 PM
Paul Luckman, editor of 'The Portugal News', describes to Sky's Robert Nisbet the route Madeleine McCann's abductor is thought to have taken.
Quote re Goncalo Amaral...
"He is convinced that whoever was carrying the child walked down this road..."
"He was furious that his officers never found that camera..."
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 10:02:48 PM
Paul Luckman, editor of 'The Portugal News', describes to Sky's Robert Nisbet the route Madeleine McCann's abductor is thought to have taken.
Quote re Goncalo Amaral...
"He is convinced that whoever was carrying the child walked down this road..."
"He was furious that his officers never found that camera..."
Paul Luckman likely read the tabloids... Right after the case was shelved, Gonçalo Amaral claimed it shouldn't be. He has been the only one to say so during quite a time. Once he got back his right to express himself on the case, he made some attempts to suggest that there were leads to explore. I'm pretty sure however that Gonçalo Amaral doesn't know more than us.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 18, 2013, 12:11:51 AM
Mr Amaral was very clear about the significance of the hotel CCTV camera and was angry that because the Smiths delayed in coming forward the delay resulted in the video footage being lost. It wasn't his officers fault that the film was lost.
Where have you heard that ?
Have I answered your question Anne. It came from Amaral.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 12:29:34 AM
Have I answered your question Anne. It came from Amaral.
Well, no, sorry Angelo... I've never heard Mr Amaral saying this. I suppose he spoke of this camera but what did he say exactly ? Imo it sounds like the mystery of the pink blanket, the one that disappeared... in the country of apparitions..
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 18, 2013, 12:55:22 AM
Well he told Luckman that he was furious that his officers hadn't collected the video footage from the hotel CCTV. Nobody, least of all him ever dreamt that the abductor walked that way until the Smiths report came in. Thus if Amaral is furious with anyone it is with the Smiths.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 01:31:08 AM
Well he told Luckman that he was furious that his officers hadn't collected the video footage from the hotel CCTV. Nobody, least of all him ever dreamt that the abductor walked that way until the Smiths report came in. Thus if Amaral is furious with anyone it is with the Smiths.
Hum hum.. Are you sure GA spoke to Mr Luckman ? And, no, he can't have been furious with the Smiths (I can't figure out this man as "furious", after having observed him during those court sessions). He could, yes, be furious with himself, because they should have done a reconstitution with the Smiths, taking into account the sound issue (sounds gain interest in the darkness). Let's face it, the Smiths were called to PDL in the hope they would identify Mr Murat. Their denial should have opened a new and crucial lead, as their description of the little girl so well matched Madeleine. It didn't.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 18, 2013, 02:02:43 AM
Hum hum.. Are you sure GA spoke to Mr Luckman ? And, no, he can't have been furious with the Smiths (I can't figure out this man as "furious", after having observed him during those court sessions). He could, yes, be furious with himself, because they should have done a reconstitution with the Smiths, taking into account the sound issue (sounds gain interest in the darkness). Let's face it, the Smiths were called to PDL in the hope they would identify Mr Murat. Their denial should have opened a new and crucial lead, as their description of the little girl so well matched Madeleine. It didn't.
Luckman says at the very start of the clip 'He walked me through the route'.
It appears they walked though the town together discussing the case.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 02:36:46 AM
Luckman says at the very start of the clip 'He walked me through the route'.
It appears they walked though the town together discussing the case.
Yes, thank you for making me look at the clip and sorry, Angelo, for not understanding why you sent the clip proving that GA met Mr Luckman ! But the furor seems to be Mr Luckman's interpretation. Do you think the camera spots the point where Mr Luckman and the SkyNews journalist are at the very beginning ?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 18, 2013, 03:17:14 AM
Yes, thank you for making me look at the clip and sorry, Angelo, for not understanding why you sent the clip proving that GA met Mr Luckman ! But the furor seems to be Mr Luckman's interpretation. Do you think the camera spots the point where Mr Luckman and the SkyNews journalist are at the very beginning ?
It's hard to tell, isn't it, exactly what the camera might have picked up. In fact the film taken above actually chops off the camera itself and we only see the long pole supporting it!
Who knows how it was angled on that night. Perhaps someone at the hotel might have an idea. But if Mr Luckman is to be taken at his word and Dr Amaral was furious with his officers at not seizing the tape, then presumably Amaral knew that the direction of the camera meant it could have held something significant.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 06:20:32 AM
It's hard to tell, isn't it, exactly what the camera might have picked up. In fact the film taken above actually chops off the camera itself and we only see the long pole supporting it!
Who knows how it was angled on that night. Perhaps someone at the hotel might have an idea. But if Mr Luckman is to be taken at his word and Dr Amaral was furious with his officers at not seizing the tape, then presumably Amaral knew that the direction of the camera meant it could have held something significant.
Any police officer worth his salt must have examined the range and coverage of that CCTV camera as part of the investigation after the event, even if it was too late, for him to say that he was angry (whether at himself or subordinates).
CCTV Camera screen shot from video (arrowed) (http://imageshack.com/a/img41/1262/yw23.png)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 11:19:58 AM
Thank you very much, Myster, for showing where the camera is. I didn't dare to ask ! Shouldn't it spot the access to the resort instead of Escola Primaria which is perpendicular to the resort's street ? "Yesterday controversial figure Goncalo Amaral backed Kate and Gerry McCann’s demand for a review and reopening of the investigation." That's how the Express NOV 2010 begins. The reopening of the case has always been GA's wish and the Appeal Court had restored his right to speak of the case 3 weeks before. This is when likely Mr Luckman met GA. There's no furor nor blaming of the team in this article. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 18, 2013, 11:47:31 AM
Thank you very much, Myster, for showing where the camera is. I didn't dare to ask ! Shouldn't it spot the access to the resort instead of Escola Primaria which is perpendicular to the resort's street ? "Yesterday controversial figure Goncalo Amaral backed Kate and Gerry McCann’s demand for a review and reopening of the investigation." That's how the Express NOV 2010 begins. The reopening of the case has always been GA's wish and the Appeal Court had restored his right to speak of the case 3 weeks before. This is when likely Mr Luckman met GA. There's no furor nor blaming of the team in this article. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue)
I didnt think he made a huge fuss what i heard was opportunities were lost getting the tape from the camera, non of his bereating employees. Anyway shouldnt he for gods sake if they didnt do their jobs properly....all this fuss over nothing AGAIN.
I despair. Nothing new is being spoken about its like ground hog day....
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 12:18:43 PM
I despair. Nothing new is being spoken about its like ground hog day....
Don't despair ! Sooner or later SY will have to take some initiative concerning Smithman, once they'll finish discarding the 3 (?) thousand calls and e-mails CW triggered. Unless one of them appears to be Innocent2. I wonder what kind of protocol between Ireland, the UK and Portugal would allow the Smiths to be interviewed and eventually participate in a reconstruction.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 01:04:51 PM
Thank you very much, Myster, for showing where the camera is. I didn't dare to ask ! Shouldn't it spot the access to the resort instead of Escola Primaria which is perpendicular to the resort's street ? "Yesterday controversial figure Goncalo Amaral backed Kate and Gerry McCann’s demand for a review and reopening of the investigation." That's how the Express NOV 2010 begins. The reopening of the case has always been GA's wish and the Appeal Court had restored his right to speak of the case 3 weeks before. This is when likely Mr Luckman met GA. There's no furor nor blaming of the team in this article. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/210032/Madeleine-McCann-Did-the-camera-hold-vital-clue)
As I said when it was discussed once before, the camera might have been wide-angled to take in as much of the area as possible including the junction of Primary School Street, rather than just focussed on the gates and pathway leading into the Estrela da Luz complex.
A year or so ago when my property was burgled, I heard a white transit van drive off at about 3am, but I was too late to catch it. The following day I asked the local sub Post Office on the main road about 200 metres away which had a security camera located outside if it was possible to obtain footage for the same time period. Cost me £5 for about 10 minutes of footage on a USB flash drive. Unfortunately there was no van filmed hence no vehicle registration number, although it did record a wider and more distant area than just the outside of the shop. So the culprits must have driven in the opposite direction. Perhaps the CCTV outside that hotel was more sophisticated, to take in a greater distance... we'll never know !
I'm not a policeman but I was determined to find out who did it.. so I thought any CCTV footage in Luz would have been the first resort for those involved in finding a disappeared child like Madeleine.
(http://i.imgur.com/Zv51IFL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Bg1LfGi.jpg)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 18, 2013, 01:15:18 PM
Don't despair ! Sooner or later SY will have to take some initiative concerning Smithman, once they'll finish discarding the 3 (?) thousand calls and e-mails CW triggered. Unless one of them appears to be Innocent2. I wonder what kind of protocol between Ireland, the UK and Portugal would allow the Smiths to be interviewed and eventually participate in a reconstruction.
I am trying not to despair but really its all the same ground.
As to people also saying smith man must be the abductor as no one has come forward well why is that the case?
We are to believe only just recently JTanners abuductor has just come out of the woodwork showing off PJs from 6 years ago, so why shouldnt the same be with SM?
Maybe they just dont want to be dragged into this miele and be accused of something etc....who would blame them really.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 01:23:10 PM
I am trying not to despair but really its all the same ground.
As to people also saying smith man must be the abductor as no one has come forward well why is that the case?
We are to believe only just recently JTanners abuductor has just come out of the woodwork showing off PJs from 6 years ago, so why shouldnt the same be with SM?
Maybe they just dont want to be dragged into this miele and be accused of something etc....who would blame them really.
Tannerman was fishy because of his strange carrying way. That is not the case with Smithman. Whoever he was, he was caring for the child he had in his arms. None of the Smith suspected he wasn't the father. If Smithman is Innocentman2, what reason would he have not to say so ? Didn't SY prove with CW that anonymity was well preserved, no details were given and no blame cast ?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 18, 2013, 01:30:52 PM
Tannerman was fishy because of his strange carrying way. That is not the case with Smithman. Whoever he was, he was caring for the child he had in his arms. None of the Smith suspected he wasn't the father. If Smithman is Innocentman2, what reason would he have not to say so ? Didn't SY prove with CW that anonymity was well preserved, no details were given and no blame cast ?
I have no clue, that is of course if smithman exists at all....its like twists and turns and smoke and mirrors this story. I still do not understand why an abductor would walk through the streets of PDL with a stolen child why?
I dont know PDL, but just looking at the images, there would be an easier way to go which is out of PDL surely, not through it.....even the beach was rocky with little places to hide. No i dont get this sighting to be honest.
Something so off about it, i knew JT sighting was rubbish, this one just seems similar or for other purposes.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 01:32:43 PM
As I said when it was discussed once before, the camera might have been wide-angled to take in as much of the area as possible including the junction of Primary School Street, rather than just focussed on the gates and pathway leading into the Estrela da Luz complex.
I'm not a policeman but I was determined to find out who did it.. so I thought any CCTV footage in Luz would have been the first resort for those involved in finding a disappeared child like Madeleine.
(http://i.imgur.com/Zv51IFL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Bg1LfGi.jpg)
You could make a good cop, Myster ! Thank you for those pictures, but I observe they are not perspectives from the camera wall. According to them, the camera seems to spot the entrance of the garage. Wouldn't a very large angle deform number plates ?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 01:36:51 PM
I still do not understand why an abductor would walk through the streets of PDL with a stolen child why?
It doesn't make sense, therefore it probably didn't happen (an abductor). It's most easy to get out from PDL in a nutshell when you're in Agostinho da Silva. Even walking...
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 02:14:28 PM
You could make a good cop, Myster ! Thank you for those pictures, but I observe they are not perspectives from the camera wall. According to them, the camera seems to spot the entrance of the garage. Wouldn't a very large angle deform number plates ?
No sweat, Anne.. but I don't like the idea of being shot at !
It's surprising how much information can be gleaned using sophisticated software for picture enhancement and number plate recognition that the police use. Off topic here, but such software enabled the arrest and prosecution of Stephen Seddon for the murder of his mother and father. Without CCTV footage showing the movements of his car close to his parent's home in Sale, Manchester on the day in question - (over a hundred miles from where Seddon lived) he could well have got away with it.
Look at the distance and width covered by just one outside camera on a supermarket at 3:30 onwards.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 02:32:40 PM
Look at the distance and width covered by just one outside camera on a supermarket at 3:30 onwards.
Thank you, Myster. I'm amazed by the quality of the images.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 02:34:43 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/DrwTEhg.jpg) I thought the camera could be the thing on top of this mast, but it isn't, it not on that picture.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 02:39:52 PM
That is the camera located on the pole and encased in a hemispherical plastic or glass cover... and GA is pointing in the wrong direction !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on December 18, 2013, 02:43:31 PM
The CCTV camera nest.
(http://i.imgur.com/htgOkDN.jpg)
Here is a close up of the camera which is in fact two cameras.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 02:51:30 PM
Here is a close up of the camera which is in fact two cameras.
One is a 360 degree and the other directional.
There are 3 cameras then : one on the wall and two on the mast ? What is a 360 degree camera ? Isn't "directional" one you can move from your monitoring desk ? I'm still reading the 2005 report on the social impact of those cameras. People feel secure up to a certain point. If something happens, that feeling decreases a lot.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on December 18, 2013, 03:01:19 PM
Camera on a wall?
(http://i.imgur.com/4p97rz5.jpg)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 03:06:03 PM
Thanks John.. missed that thread first time round !
The right hand cylindrical one looks fixed & focused on the garage entrance, whilst the second glass/plastic encased one could be wide ranging and as you say controlled to rotate from a security desk... or automatically set to rotate over a time period to cover a broader area.
Don't see any on a wall Anne !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on December 18, 2013, 03:08:15 PM
Thanks John.. missed that thread first time round !
The right hand cylindrical one looks fixed & focused on the garage entrance, whilst the second glass/plastic encased one could be wide ranging and as you say controlled to rotate from a security desk... or automatically set to rotate over a time period to cover a broader area.
Don't see any on a wall Anne !
Unless Anne means that yellow domed thingy on top of the pillar which I assume is an infra red detector for the automatic gates.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 03:11:28 PM
I got it wrong. I didn't see the mast on that picture and thought the camera was on the wall.. (http://imageshack.com/a/img41/1262/yw23.png) Now, finally, I understand how it was possible that the 360° camera (constantly turning to sweep all around) eventually could catch the rua da Escola Primaria. As this street was very dark (when I was there in 2011), the best could have been, as Gilet suggested, a time indication.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 03:14:47 PM
Unless Anne means that yellow domed thingy on top of the pillar which I assume is an infra red detector for the automatic gates.
I meant the thing which the arrow points to. I didn't see the mast and thought it was on the wall !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on December 18, 2013, 03:15:53 PM
That's an excellent point Anne which I think is lost on us looking at daytime photos. There is a tall 10m overhead street light at the junction with other 2.5m street lights on one side of the road but the best I think Dr Amaral could have achieved from CCTV would have been the silhouette of a man carrying a child, a time stamp and little more.
(http://i.imgur.com/1qJ1AFr.jpg)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 03:18:59 PM
Unless Anne means that yellow domed thingy on top of the pillar which I assume is an infra red detector for the automatic gates.
Looks like it is some type of IR thingumajig for the gate (or just a decorative uplighter with a yellow shade)
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 03:28:39 PM
That's an excellent point Anne which I think is lost on us looking at daytime photos. There is a tall 10m overhead street light at the junction with other 2.5m street lights on one side of the road but the best I think Dr Amaral could have achieved from CCTV would have been the silhouette of a man carrying a child, a time stamp and little more.
Agreed but it would be important to see further details e.g. hair style/length, the jacket the man was wearing to possibly match with known images etc.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 03:29:37 PM
I had to google thingumajig, but what's IR for ? InfraRed ? And then why thingumajig ? I'm lost.
Sorry Anne, my apologies for using slang terms. A thingy is a quick term used by us Brits to describe an object on the spur of the moment when you have a sudden brain fritz and forget exactly what you were gonna say. A thingumajig basically the same.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Myster on December 18, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
Sorry Anne, my apologies for using slang terms. A thingy is a quick term used to describe an object on the spur of the moment when you have a sudden brain fritz and forget exactly what you were gonna say. A thingumajig basically the same.
Happens to me all the time... particularly when I type faster then I can think !!!
You'll have Anne googling "brain fritz" next... LOL!
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 03:43:28 PM
Sorry Anne, my apologies for using slang terms. A thingy is a quick term used by us Brits to describe an object on the spur of the moment when you have a sudden brain fritz and forget exactly what you were gonna say. A thingumajig basically the same.
I see, like "truc", "machin" in French (the Portuguese would just change the genre of the word for thing, coisa > coiso). Thank you, John !
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 03:54:48 PM
Happens to me all the time... particularly when I type faster then I can think !!!
You'll have Anne googling "brain fritz" next... LOL!
Gosh, it didn't pass my mind before I read your post ! I imagined it meant "a lapse of memory". But then I googled and all I found was Hans & Fritz brain teasers...
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 19, 2013, 04:06:26 AM
Any police officer worth his salt must have examined the range and coverage of that CCTV camera as part of the investigation after the event, even if it was too late, for him to say that he was angry (whether at himself or subordinates).
CCTV Camera screen shot from video (arrowed) (http://imageshack.com/a/img41/1262/yw23.png)
Thanks so much for the clarification, Myster.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: John on April 27, 2014, 05:33:26 PM
A reminder of the Sky News interview with Paul Luckman of The Portugal News.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2015, 12:24:48 PM
Sorry, Anna. I meant I had posted the details of CCTV around Estrela on my blog (true).
However, it is basically non-news.
In brief Estrela has 9 entrances, each with 1 CCTV, apart from 1 which has 2. Basically, 8 of these are looking inside, with 2 that are irrelevant to Smithman seeing a bit of the outside.
Forget the 'missing' CCTV. It would have added nothing.
It may have added nothing to information on Smithman ... but would it not have confirmed the exact time of the Smith family's return home?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 30, 2015, 07:13:20 PM
It may have added nothing to information on Smithman ... but would it not have confirmed the exact time of the Smith family's return home?
The 3 Smith's are neatly co-ordinated into 10 PM or a few minutes before for the sighting. Interesting thought, Brietta, but no, I very much doubt the missing tape would.
Mind you, there's a 9 out of 10 chance that the time of the Smith sighting could be corroborated from the CCTV that was recovered.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: DCI on March 30, 2015, 07:23:24 PM
The 3 Smith's are neatly co-ordinated into 10 PM or a few minutes before for the sighting. Interesting thought, Brietta, but no, I very much doubt the missing tape would.
Mind you, there's a 9 out of 10 chance that the time of the Smith sighting could be corroborated from the CCTV that was recovered.
Amaral said the CCTV had been erased. If I remember correctly he said the It hadn't been collected till too late.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Brietta on March 30, 2015, 07:58:31 PM
Amaral said the CCTV had been erased. If I remember correctly he said the It hadn't been collected till too late.
Exactly so DCI.
** snip
‘I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,’ he said.
‘I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/19/madeleine-mccann-cctv-footage-of-suspect-was-deleted-says-goncalo-amaral-4152295/
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: Carana on March 30, 2015, 08:05:31 PM
‘I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,’ he said.
‘I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/19/madeleine-mccann-cctv-footage-of-suspect-was-deleted-says-goncalo-amaral-4152295/
PdL wasn't exactly a sprawling metropolis, was it? How long did it take them to work out which buildings had security cameras?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: DCI on March 30, 2015, 08:51:52 PM
‘I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,’ he said.
‘I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/19/madeleine-mccann-cctv-footage-of-suspect-was-deleted-says-goncalo-amaral-4152295/ (http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/19/madeleine-mccann-cctv-footage-of-suspect-was-deleted-says-goncalo-amaral-4152295/)
There was also a camera on Estrela da Luz, which could have picked up the Smith family coming up the road. Amaral only showed one, when with James Murray.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: DCI on March 30, 2015, 08:56:23 PM
PdL wasn't exactly a sprawling metropolis, was it? How long did it take them to work out which buildings had security cameras?
Well it took Amaral 3 years to mention this one. He doesn't say when they realised they had been erased. No mention of this camera till 2010, as I can find.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 30, 2015, 11:59:13 PM
PdL wasn't exactly a sprawling metropolis, was it? How long did it take them to work out which buildings had security cameras?
Have a guess. Luz is roughly the same size as the square mile in London (20 minutes across on foot in one direction, a little over 10 minutes on foot on the other). This is not what you survey in one day and take everything in.
I have no doubt the square mile has more security cameras.
So let's have a guess at where they might be in Luz, as that would be a good game.
Bank ATMS. Useless for anything other than the ATM. How many banks were there?
Restaurants fitted with CCTV. Clearly the Paraíso had one, otherwise we wouldn't have the Paraíso footage. How about other restaurants and pubs? I am led to believe that the Bull has one, and since the same chap owns the Luz Tavern, I would venture that the Luz Tavern has one. Possibly quite a few others too. It seems to be fitted mainly to stop staff fiddling the till (but I am a cynic).
So, how many pubs, restaurants and ATMs? I think I am up to about 20 to 25 on a map in ShiningInLuz even as we speak, and I would guess I've got around the same to go again. But my map will not highlight Estrela da Luz, because if I did not know of the missing CCTV tape, I wouldn't realise that Estrela is 'significant'.
Madeleine disappeared on 3 May, the Smiths gave statements about their sighting on 26 May. The only thing that surprises me is that the PJ got any CCTV from Estrela in that time. I wonder if anything proves that they did?
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: misty on March 31, 2015, 12:10:00 AM
I've always been vaguely surprised that there was no CCTV outside LuzDoc.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2015, 12:19:40 AM
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: DCI on March 31, 2015, 12:34:50 AM
Madeleine McCann: Did the camera hold vital clue?
THEdetective who led the initial investigation into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance believes her abductor was caught on camera – but revealed that the film was wiped before detectives saw it.
By JAMES MURRAY PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Nov 7, 2010
Yesterday controversial figure Goncalo Amaral backed Kate and Gerry McCann’s demand for a review and reopening of the investigation.
The Sunday Express took Mr Amaral, whose book Maddy: The Truth Of The Lie was banned briefly from bookstores, to Praia da Luz to ask him to reveal where mistakes were made.
The detective believes Madeleine McCann s abductor was caught on camera
He walked the route he believes the person who snatched Madeleine took. It begins at apartment 5A of the Ocean Club, from where the three-year-old disappeared on May 3, 2007.
Mr Amaral believes the person would have crossed a road leading to a poorly lit road alongside waste ground.
Standing at an entrance to the waste ground, Mr Amaral said: “This area was thoroughly searched.”
He walked a few steps and looked up at a CCTV camera and sighed loudly. The camera belongs to the Estrela da Luz resort hotel. “I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera,” he said.
“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over. It was a mistake and I will always regret it. I do feel Madeleine was let down.”
Walking alongside the waste ground, he enters a narrow street called Rua da Escola Primaria. “This is where there was a significant sighting of a man carrying a child in his arms,” he said. “He was seen by a witness, Martin Smith from Ireland.”
The man with the child continued down the hill and would have come to a crossroads. Opposite the junction is an empty villa with a large garden. The wooden door leading to the garden is open.
“It was open at the time and the villa is still empty,” Mr Amaral said. “My officers spent a lot of time here.”
Mr Amaral concludes that any new investigation should fully consider the statement of Mr Smith. “I hope this is seriously examined because it is an important aspect of the case,” he said.
THE detective who led the initial investigation into Madeleine McCann’s disappearance believes her abductor was caught on camera – but revealed that the film was wiped before detectives saw it.
By JAMES MURRAY PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Nov 7, 2010
*sigh* Perhaps he'd have been better explaining why the Smiths' statements were sat on from the end of May until October 2007 and then disregarded again. But, just like any bad workman, he blamed his tools.
Title: Re: The CCTV camera which Amaral claimed captured the image of the man carrying Madeleine.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on March 31, 2015, 04:01:22 PM
There's a lot of discussion on this in the "Irish teenager smoking" thread, and it is clearly getting into Smithman sighting territory. My attempt to say the missing Estrela da Luz CCTV was not significant produced a flurry of responses, so I'm splitting the topic out. Thanks to those who posted in the "Irish teenager smoking" thread as that has improved my understanding of the missing Estrela da Luz CCTV. (Oh, and the route Amaral thinks Smithman took.)
The graphic attached is the closest one gets to Estrela whilst staying on the Smithman route of Primary School Street. It's at the SE corner of EdL. And I do mean the very closest. Smithman should have been further away, on the other side of Primary School Street.
So have a look at this pic and what do you see?
The CCTV is on the elevated pole beside the gate. Please note the pole is nearer to the point of view than the gate it is monitoring. That is important.
Now have a look at what is between the gate and the viewing point.
I make it a pedestrian crossing. Then 4 of the underground waste bins. Then a street sign. Then a small gap before there is a lamp pole. Then the pedestrian walkway that goes up the East side of EdL (and that has two more entrances and 3 more CCTV cameras).
Google Streetview is not great for working what is going on here. The CCTV pole has 2 objects on it. One is the cylinder that is the CCTV. The other is a ball shaped object that does whatever. I don't know and I don't care.
Back to the CCTV. It is closer to the viewpoint (and thus Smithman) than the entrance. Since the CCTV is pointing at the area inside of the gate, it is pointing away from the viewer (aka Smithman).
So, it is pointing in completely the wrong direction, and it is so far away that it would be useless if for some strange reason it was pointing towards Primary School Street.
The 'missing' EdL CCTV is a red herring.
I can only speculate as to why such a red herring exists, so here goes. Pop out of apartment 5A (with Madeleine), exit the car park and turn left. Head to the end of the road and hit Primeiro de Maio. Cross PdM and into Primary School Street. Go along it then down it until you hit Smithman sighting.
This fits Amaral's vague theory that the one doing this is (allegedly) Gerry.
Now things get interesting. The time to walk this route is about 4 minutes. Of course, if it was Gerry, he had to do something with Madeleine, however long that took, and return. A further 4 minutes plus.
So is Amaral doing a bit of finger-pointing? Was the vital evidence that was never collected actually vital? Or is it the case that. since the CCTV does not cover the alleged Smithman route at all, it is simply another allegation without substance?