Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 13, 2013, 06:55:26 PM
Title: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 13, 2013, 06:55:26 PM
Can anybody give a video link to this alert please?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: DCI on May 13, 2013, 06:57:24 PM
Now i know we fall out a lot - but do you have a link to the full videos?
The fuller link at 40.00 onwards, is a longer version of the dogs in the border.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id167.html
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
Somewhere amongst the statements (haven't got time to look at the mo) the question is asked of Martin Grime whether the varying levels of intensity of the dog's alert is relevant (words to that effect). Martin Grime assures him that 'the dogs either alert or they don't.' And yet when Eddie only barks once in the garden Grime states that it was a 'weak' alert. That seems to be a direct contradiction of his previous assertion.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mrs. B on May 14, 2013, 01:02:13 PM
Here Benice
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert.
Somewhere amongst the statements (haven't got time to look at the mo) the question is asked of Martin Grime whether the varying levels of intensity of the dog's alert is relevant (words to that effect). Martin Grime assures him that 'the dogs either alert or they don't.' And yet when Eddie only barks once in the garden Grime states that it was a 'weak' alert. That seems to be a direct contradiction of his previous assertion.
This perhaps.
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert.
EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2013, 01:33:45 PM
Somewhere amongst the statements (haven't got time to look at the mo) the question is asked of Martin Grime whether the varying levels of intensity of the dog's alert is relevant (words to that effect). Martin Grime assures him that 'the dogs either alert or they don't.' And yet when Eddie only barks once in the garden Grime states that it was a 'weak' alert. That seems to be a direct contradiction of his previous assertion.
This perhaps.
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert.
EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'.
To begin, I thought that line of questioning might have been prompted by Eddie's alert in the garden, which was more of a whimper than a bark.
But I now think it more likely to have been prompted by the inspection in the gym, the only justification for which in the files seems to be to re-test clothing (sic) "possibly alerted to in the villa".
That inspection, even more than the one in the villa, wreaks of something unsavoury and underhand.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the questioning was prompted by our old friend Inspector Dias, who is my absolute PJ hero in the Madeleine investigation.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 01:44:01 PM
Eddie's alert in the garden, which was more of a whimper than a bark.
***
Clearly a bark.
ETA I have looked at the whole outside search and believe you are correct, the two alerts are more like ruffs or wimpers in the garden, the bark audible in the short PT voiced over video I believe took place on the verandah, in the video here at 56.25 though its so dark its hard to distinguish
The garden *noises* were at 53 mins or so. The search ends at 58 mins
ETA @ Benice below, I have no idea
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2013, 01:52:06 PM
Somewhere amongst the statements (haven't got time to look at the mo) the question is asked of Martin Grime whether the varying levels of intensity of the dog's alert is relevant (words to that effect). Martin Grime assures him that 'the dogs either alert or they don't.' And yet when Eddie only barks once in the garden Grime states that it was a 'weak' alert. That seems to be a direct contradiction of his previous assertion.
This perhaps.
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.
The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert.
EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'.
Thanks Redblossom (also Mrs B) - I'm still puzzled as to why he thought it was necessary to point out that in his opinion the dog's alert in the garden was a weak one if, as he claims, no different conclusions are to be drawn from weak alerts as opposed to strong ones. What was the point he was making?
Also - whilst on the subject of the garden alert. I have never heard any evidence that any investigative 'digging' took place at that spot. If not why not?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 14, 2013, 01:59:43 PM
There's not much to dig there, very much occupied by the roots of a Bougainvilliers.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2013, 02:07:16 PM
There's not much to dig there, very much occupied by the roots of a Bougainvilliers.
So they wouldn't know whether Eddie had alerted to something below ground which was totally unrelated to Madeleine.
The garden had recently been fertilised and there is a fertiliser that is pig-based ...
And for some reason they used the fertiliser to clean the flat...
That's probably more likely to be down to Mr Gordon's shaving cut.
Or straightforward alerting error, such as cuddle-cat ...
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 02:20:17 PM
That's probably more likely to be down to Mr Gordon's shaving cut.
Or straightforward alerting error, such as cuddle-cat ...
****
If an error, then Keela was in error too
And a bad shaving cut that took 45 minutes to stop whilst wandering around the apartment wouldnt have left just a few microscopic bits of blood in just one spot behind the sofa!
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2013, 02:23:00 PM
That's probably more likely to be down to Mr Gordon's shaving cut.
Or straightforward alerting error, such as cuddle-cat ...
****
If an error, then Keela was in error too
And a bad shaving cut that took 45 minutes to stop whilst wandering around the apartment wouldnt have left just a few microscopic bits of blood in just one spot behind the sofa!
As Grime himself explains, the place where Eddie alerts is not necessarily the place where the source of the alert was deposited ...
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 02:31:38 PM
That's probably more likely to be down to Mr Gordon's shaving cut.
Or straightforward alerting error, such as cuddle-cat ...
****
If an error, then Keela was in error too
And a bad shaving cut that took 45 minutes to stop whilst wandering around the apartment wouldnt have left just a few microscopic bits of blood in just one spot behind the sofa!
As Grime himself explains, the place where Eddie alerts is not necessarily the place where the source of the alert was deposited ...
But it is for Keela so.....thats that as far as blood and Eddie is concerned
Edited
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2013, 03:05:11 PM
That's probably more likely to be down to Mr Gordon's shaving cut.
Or straightforward alerting error, such as cuddle-cat ...
****
If an error, then Keela was in error too
And a bad shaving cut that took 45 minutes to stop whilst wandering around the apartment wouldnt have left just a few microscopic bits of blood in just one spot behind the sofa!
As Grime himself explains, the place where Eddie alerts is not necessarily the place where the source of the alert was deposited ...
But it is for Keela so.....thats that as far as blood and Eddie is concerned
Edited
You think Keela found all blood there was to find?
Was Keela deployed in the bathroom?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 03:16:26 PM
You think Keela found all blood there was to find?
Was Keela deployed in the bathroom?
***
You know the answer to that, she was not, as Eddie had been, and gave no alert.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2013, 03:25:20 PM
You think Keela found all blood there was to find?
Was Keela deployed in the bathroom?
***
You know the answer to that, she was not, as Eddie had been, and gave no alert.
Very likely there was more blood than Keela found.
And as Grime himself says, the place Eddie alerts is not necessarily the (original) site of the deposit, because airborne molecules carrying the scent drift with movement of air in enclosed spaces.
There is also that cut of Lino, the PJ officer ...
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 03:40:50 PM
Very likely there was more blood than Keela found.
And as Grime himself says, the place Eddie alerts is not necessarily the (original) site of the deposit, because airborne molecules carrying the scent drift with movement of air in enclosed spaces.
***
Where? And why did not Eddie alert to it?
As for Grime's explanation about place of deposit and place of settlement, I very much doubt he was referring to blood but to cadaver scent.
Are you suggesting there was blood in the bathroom and Eddie alerted in the bedroom instead because the scent of blood had travelled there?? That's really stretching it! Lol
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2013, 03:44:56 PM
Very likely there was more blood than Keela found.
And as Grime himself says, the place Eddie alerts is not necessarily the (original) site of the deposit, because airborne molecules carrying the scent drift with movement of air in enclosed spaces.
***
Where? And why did not Eddie alert to it?
As for Grime's explanation about place of deposit and place of settlement, I very much doubt he was referring to blood but to cadaver scent.
Are you suggesting there was blood in the bathroom and Eddie alerted in the bedroom instead because the scent of blood had travelled there?? That's really stretching it! Lol
As an aficionado of Grime, you should know that Grime himself says that the place Eddie alerts is not necessarily the place where the source of the alert was deposited. That is because molecules bearing the scent that carries the odour move with movement of air in enclosed spaces.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 03:56:00 PM
I already commented on that. perhaps you missed it. I dont think a) he was talking about blood and b) does not suggest the scent travels throughout several rooms of a house, it is clear to me the scent originated in that room and not the bathroom.
And I find your theory quite implausible at best, but you are free to have your opinions.
Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.
What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.
Edited
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2013, 04:04:20 PM
I already commented on that. perhaps you missed it.
And I find your theory quite implausible at best, but you are free to have your opinions.
Beg your pardon:
As for Grime's explanation about place of deposit and place of settlement, I very much doubt he was referring to blood but to cadaver scent.
Why do you doubt that? Molecules bearing scent could be blood scent as well as cadaver ...
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Redblossom on May 14, 2013, 04:09:15 PM
Because that is what I think. See my edited previous post. Besides, any blood in the bathroom will have long been eliminated by regular cleaning over three months. We will have to agree to disagree. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 12, 2016, 06:22:19 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Eddie, the cadaver dog, alerted in the garden of G5A (McCann apartment)?
He did not alert in any other garden searched, for the record.
Perhaps where the dog did not alert should be considered.
As in the garden of 27 Rua das Flores, where according to one myth ... Then there's the one about buried under Jenny Murat's driveway. No alert there either. Dang!
Until Eddie manages to speak to us in English, and communicates from across the grave, we can debate this till the cows come home.
He alerted. Reason unknown.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 12, 2016, 07:53:13 PM
Perhaps where the dog did not alert should be considered.
As in the garden of 27 Rua das Flores, where according to one myth ... Then there's the one about buried under Jenny Murat's driveway. No alert there either. Dang!
Until Eddie manages to speak to us in English, and communicates from across the grave, we can debate this till the cows come home.
He alerted. Reason unknown.
Yes, but we are not talking about myths Shining, are we? I'm talking about a cited fact, namely that Eddie alerted in the garden for 5A. What could be the explanation for that? You sound a little like Gerry when you say 'ask the dogs!' -- but I'm asking why a trained dog alerted in that spot, and not in any other gardens searched -- a fact that was recorded as evidence in an official PJ document. When Scotland Yard appeared in Luz in 2014, they brought cadaver dogs with them -- so there must be a lot of confidence in the training methods and outcomes surrounding these dogs one might argue.
Thus again -- does anyone have any thoughts on explaining the cadaver alerts in the garden of 5A -- rented by the McCanns?
Thanks, G.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 12, 2016, 08:17:14 PM
Eddie also alerted on the balcony. Here is where he was sniffing immediately before he alerted. His nose is sticking through a gap in the railings outside the adult bedroom, into the climbing plant on the other side of the railing. So this alert made from the balcony is actually an alert to either the flowerbed below, or to the climbing plant partway down from the railing to the flowerbed.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: jassi on April 12, 2016, 08:22:11 PM
Yes, but we are not talking about myths Shining, are we? I'm talking about a cited fact, namely that Eddie alerted in the garden for 5A. What could be the explanation for that? You sound a little like Gerry when you say 'ask the dogs!' -- but I'm asking why a trained dog alerted in that spot, and not in any other gardens searched -- a fact that was recorded as evidence in an official PJ document. When Scotland Yard appeared in Luz in 2014, they brought cadaver dogs with them -- so there must be a lot of confidence in the training methods and outcomes surrounding these dogs one might argue.
Thus again -- does anyone have any thoughts on explaining the cadaver alerts in the garden of 5A -- rented by the McCanns?
Thanks, G.
Indeed I do, but I can hear the screams of "libelous post" even before I put finger to keyboard, so my views must remain my own . 8)-)))
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 12, 2016, 08:39:57 PM
From what I have read about remnant scent and from basic chemistry I don't see how the scent could have lasted 3 months out in the open
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 12, 2016, 08:48:36 PM
Indeed I do, but I can hear the screams of "libelous post" even before I put finger to keyboard, so my views must remain my own . 8)-)))
What if it was a burglary-gone-wrong (didn't SY consider that hypothesis?) and the unnamed unknown burglar concealed something in that flowerbed?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 12, 2016, 08:51:45 PM
So to sum up so far:
Pegasus and Jassi consider that either a cadaver or something that has come in contact with a cadaver could have been the cause of Eddie's alert. Davel is sceptical that cadaverine can survive in the open, but has no cite. And Shining repeats Gerry McCann's argument that we need to ask the dogs.
My view is cadaver dogs, alert to human cadavers an overwhelming percentage of the time -- but clearly, the dogs are simply a guide to helping the PJ and SY understand what went on both at 5A, but also in some of the dig sights of 2014.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: faithlilly on April 12, 2016, 08:52:53 PM
From what I have read about remnant scent and from basic chemistry I don't see how the scent could have lasted 3 months out in the open
Good point. In the burglary-gone-wrong hypothesis, would there need to be a physical source still present, to yield an alert at an outdoor location 3 months later?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 12, 2016, 08:59:00 PM
Since when did Eddie clearing his nasal passages constitute an alert to an odour which he was trained to respond to? Multiple barks were the normal response.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 12, 2016, 09:01:37 PM
Since when did Eddie clearing his nasal passages constitute an alert to an odour which he was trained to respond to? Multiple barks were the normal response.
The moment it went into an official document, cited below.
Good point. In the burglary-gone-wrong hypothesis, would there need to be a physical source still present, to yield an alert at an outdoor location 3 months later?
there has to be a physical source present for any alert although it may not be visible to the naked eye...the point is taht after 3 months all molecules would have dissipated imo
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Gadfly1.3 on April 12, 2016, 09:05:30 PM
there has to be a physical source present for any alert although it may not be visible to the naked eye...the point is taht after 3 months all molecules would have dissipated imo
You have any cites/scientific knowledge in the area we should know about Davel? Or is that simply speculative?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 12, 2016, 09:09:09 PM
I didn't realise that O level chemistry covered cadaver scents - it certainly didn't in my day.
Ok, let us test Davel. This is the EASIEST question on an A-level Chemistry paper. (Taken by 17/18 year olds). Have a go at it and prove your credentials. I'll give you the answer soon.
I didn't realise that O level chemistry covered cadaver scents - it certainly didn't in my day.
some of us went beyond O level...
I would be looking at the number of molecules deposited by contact with a cadaver...then the rate of dilution by rain and evaporation by heat...then there is degradation in the soil..and estimating what would be left after 3 months.
the only study I have seen suggests that cadaver scent can last up to 12 months in a CLOSED building... I can't see how it could last 3 months in the open with dilution by wind and rain...what do you think
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 12, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
Pegasus and Jassi consider that either a cadaver or something that has come in contact with a cadaver could have been the cause of Eddie's alert. Davel is sceptical that cadaverine can survive in the open, but has no cite. And Shining repeats Gerry McCann's argument that we need to ask the dogs.
My view is cadaver dogs, alert to human cadavers an overwhelming percentage of the time -- but clearly, the dogs are simply a guide to helping the PJ and SY understand what went on both at 5A, but also in some of the dig sights of 2014.
The best approach is to forget cadaver/cadaverine (incidentally separate and distinct scents) and (at least in respect of PdL) foucus exclusively on the handler.
Not for nothing did Harrison (then representing an arm of the British police) distance himself entirely from inspections in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, inspections he had nothing to do with, including that (unlike other searches) he did not recommend them ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 12, 2016, 09:31:12 PM
Ok, let us test Davel. This is the EASIEST question on an A-level Chemistry paper. (Taken by 17/18 year olds). Have a go at it and prove your credentials. I'll give you the answer soon.
I said basic chemistrty...its been neraly 50 yrs since I took Alevel but it looks like the answer is A..all the others have a degree of isometry
If it helps davel, look up on google trans-/cis-, or Stereoisomerism in the form of Geometrical Isomerism, the latter of which some exam boards do not allow reference to anymore.
and a bit more if it helps..
trans- is now called the E- form, and cis- is Z- form.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 12, 2016, 09:42:49 PM
If it helps davel, look up on google trans-/cis-, or Stereoisomerism in the form of Geometrical Isomerism, the latter of which some exam boards do not allow reference to anymore.
and a bit more if it helps..
trans- is now called the E- form, and cis- is Z- form.
stephen....I took a level almost 50 yrs ago...have a look at my number sequence...that's raw intelligence and reasoning power
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 12, 2016, 09:43:02 PM
So let's see you for a change justify your statement, rhetoric is irrelevant.
so you are unable to offer a critique...fair enough...it makes perfect sense..its ashame you are more interested trying to score personal points against me than discussing an important and interesting point
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 12, 2016, 10:03:57 PM
After all , isn't that the correct forum procedure.
I have put forward a theory...based on dilution and based on the only study anyone has quoted here on how long remnant scent lasts...you seem unable to counter it....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 12, 2016, 10:08:22 PM
I would be looking at the number of molecules deposited by contact with a cadaver...then the rate of dilution by rain and evaporation by heat...then there is degradation in the soil..and estimating what would be left after 3 months.
the only study I have seen suggests that cadaver scent can last up to 12 months in a CLOSED building... I can't see how it could last 3 months in the open with dilution by wind and rain...what do you think
there you are stephen......can you make a useful comment..grime didn't ask for a soil sample...perhaps he agrees with me
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 12, 2016, 10:10:28 PM
I have put forward a theory...based on dilution and based on the only study anyone has quoted here on how long remnant scent lasts...you seem unable to counter it....
You have given no theory at all, just your view.
Do you know the soil chemistry in that area, rainfall patterns, types of vegetation, the adsorbtion rates of pentane-1,5-diaamine and other compounds, their relative volatilities, temperature records of the area, pH of the solid involved ?
That is just to start.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 12, 2016, 10:11:31 PM
It is interesting that despite continual affirmations that the McCanns were suspected only of concealing their daughter's remains after her accidental death it seems that was not the actual thinking of those who wrote this report.
** snip In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
So much being invested in what the dogs appeared to be telling them may have clouded judgement more than a little.
Eddie did not give his trained response of continual barking while in the garden ( a sneeze and a half hearted single bark) nor did his handler make any claim about the possibility of reaction to cadaver scent. On camera he says "There is some interest here but it will take further examination to see what's going on"
At approximately 57:10 something is lifted from the flower bed to be looked at on the morrow in daylight. Anyone know what it was, it doesn't appear to be mentioned in any evidence chain?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 12, 2016, 10:12:35 PM
Do you know the soil chemistry in that area, rainfall patterns, types of vegetation, the adsorbtion rates of pentane-1,5-diaamine and other compounds, their relative volatility especially, temperature records of the area, pH of the solid involved ?
That is just to start.
remnant scent last 12 months in a CLOSED building....how long do you think it would last outside in wind and rain...it is not a difficult question
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 12, 2016, 10:14:22 PM
now you are thinking.....how many times did it rain in 3 months...then we have wind...there would be nothing left...just like when a homeopath repeatedly dilutes his ingredients...eventually there is not one molecule left in the solution...did you know that
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 12, 2016, 10:19:37 PM
My experience of portugal is quite a lot of very heavy rain..in short bursts of course
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 12, 2016, 10:20:28 PM
@Sadie are you claiming that the garden alert was to human urine?
IIRC it has been shown on here that the dogs alert to any human remains /fluids/ scents has it not? Please correct me if I am remembering this incorrectly.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 13, 2016, 02:24:56 AM
IIRC it has been shown on here that the dogs alert to any human remains /fluids/ scents has it not? Please correct me if I am remembering this incorrectly.
Grime has never claimed that Eddie had been de-sensitised to all odours except those pertaining solely to the stages of human decomposition.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 13, 2016, 02:58:10 AM
IIRC it has been shown on here that the dogs alert to any human remains /fluids/ scents has it not? Please correct me if I am remembering this incorrectly.
No it hasnt Sadie I have never read any back up proof for cadaver dogs alerting to pee, poo, sweat, nose snot, toenails, used plasters, pork chops, bacon, black pudding, dead birds,animals,pizza or mushrooms...ad infinitum
If you think logically, then these dogs would be barking non stop
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: slartibartfast on April 13, 2016, 07:03:04 AM
That's one of your celestial teapot arguments. You have made a statement with no backing evidence and challenging others to disprove it.
I have supplied evidence. We have one paper on the net that states that remnant scent can last for up to 12 months in a closed building...evidence the dogs detect airborne molecules...fact airborne molecules dissipate...fact... not so quickly in a closed room...fact if we want to get rid of a smell we open a window to increase the rate of dissipation...fact in an open enviroment with wind and rain the molecules would dissipate quicker...fact
so would their be anything left after 3 months.....I would say no and that is the only unknown
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: slartibartfast on April 13, 2016, 08:16:10 AM
I have supplied evidence. We have one paper on the net that states that remnant scent can last for up to 12 months in a closed building...evidence the dogs detect airborne molecules...fact airborne molecules dissipate...fact... not so quickly in a closed room...fact if we want to get rid of a smell we open a window to increase the rate of dissipation...fact in an open enviroment with wind and rain the molecules would dissipate quicker...fact
so would their be anything left after 3 months.....I would say no and that is the only unknown
An sheltered garden.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2016, 08:20:03 AM
I have supplied evidence. We have one paper on the net that states that remnant scent can last for up to 12 months in a closed building...evidence the dogs detect airborne molecules...fact airborne molecules dissipate...fact... not so quickly in a closed room...fact if we want to get rid of a smell we open a window to increase the rate of dissipation...fact in an open enviroment with wind and rain the molecules would dissipate quicker...fact
so would their be anything left after 3 months.....I would say no and that is the only unknown
There was an alert in the garden.
The olfactory organs of dogs are incredibly sensitive (125 to 300 million olfactory receptors compared to humans 5 million receptors, beagles have 225 million by the way), and able to detect the presence of even small numbers of molecules.
The olfactory organs of dogs are incredibly sensitive (125 to 300 million olfactory receptors compared to humans 5 million receptors, beagles have 225 million by the way), and able to detect the presence of even small numbers of molecules.
You have not proved one iota, any residual scent would have dispersed after the period elapsed.
Why are you trying so hard to say otherwise ? &%+((£
what is more important is the actual number of molecules deposited to cause the residual scent and the rate of dispersion of these molecules....you have not addressed any points I have raised. It doesn't matter how many receptors the dogs have if there is nothing left to detect and we know for a fact residual scent dissipates
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 13, 2016, 09:26:24 AM
what is more important is the actual number of molecules deposited to cause the residual scent and the rate of dispersion of these molecules....you have not addressed any points I have raised. It doesn't matter how many receptors the dogs have if there is nothing left to detect and we know for a fact residual scent dissipates
I know full well the scent would dissipate, I never said it wouldn't. You have not proved one iota it had totally dispersed in the area alerted to.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2016, 09:32:25 AM
I know full well the scent would dissipate, I never said it wouldn't. You have not proved one iota it had totally dispersed in the area alerted to.
If remnant scent lasts 12 months in a closed building how long do you think it would last in an a garden open to the elements
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: John on April 13, 2016, 09:37:02 AM
Davel and Stephen. The personal comments cease now TY.
Moderators please note!
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2016, 09:58:04 AM
Who thinks it's strange fibres were discovered on the wall next to the climbing plant where Eddie indicated? Wonder if if they were from a long sleeved top which the Smiths saw &%+((£
"Subsequently, as previously determined, there proceeded the collection of various hairs from the ground of the pathway in the garden area next to the window of the couple's bedroom, they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 25.
After the above there proceeded the collection of several branches of the climbing plant in the garden they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 21 and of possible fibres on a wall of the apartment garden, next to the climbing plant, using six Crystal-Tabs appropriate for this they having been referenced as trace evidence number 26."
Who thinks it's strange fibres were discovered on the wall next to the climbing plant where Eddie indicated? Wonder if if they were from a long sleeved top which the Smiths saw &%+((£
"Subsequently, as previously determined, there proceeded the collection of various hairs from the ground of the pathway in the garden area next to the window of the couple's bedroom, they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 25.
After the above there proceeded the collection of several branches of the climbing plant in the garden they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 21 and of possible fibres on a wall of the apartment garden, next to the climbing plant, using six Crystal-Tabs appropriate for this they having been referenced as trace evidence number 26."
Remember that the window of the couple's bedroom is also a door where you can enter and exit the apartment quickly!
p.s. all bags and clothes dumped in bins that night should have been kept for possible future evidence.
What was the point I wonder of taking foliage from a climbing plant?
Plants and trees take in nutrients from decomposing flesh ... as you yourself posted about the dog alerting to the branches of the tree where 'cadaver soup' had been discarded by the handler some time previously ... so unless any body had lain there and decomposed, the foliage from the plant could have told them nothing.
I would be of the opinion that was not an action advised by Martin Grime to be carried out because it shows a basic misunderstanding of the scent intelligence they were looking for.
No mention of whatever it was that was removed from the garden ... any ideas on that?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 12:06:46 PM
What was the point I wonder of taking foliage from a climbing plant? (snip)
IMO the hypothesis was of a fall over the railing into the climbing plant. Samples of the branches of the climbing plant branches were taken to look for blood resulting from a fall into the plant. Also samples of pink and white fibres were taken from the wall behind the climbing plant, to compare with fibres from that manufacture of pyjamas. No rocket science degree is needed to realise the risk of a child on a balcony climbing and falling over a railing. In fact there was a sign in apartment 5A warning about exactly this risk
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 13, 2016, 12:17:14 PM
IMO the hypothesis was of a fall over the railing into the climbing plant. Samples of the branches of the climbing plant branches were taken to look for blood resulting from a fall into the plant. Also samples of pink and white fibres were taken from the wall behind the climbing plant, to compare with fibres from that manufacture of pyjamas. No rocket science degree is needed to realise the risk of a child on a balcony climbing and falling over a railing. In fact there was a sign in apartment 5A warning about exactly this risk
Keela would have told them immediately if there was any blood scent there ... they only had to deploy her.
Had she alerted ... it would then have been appropriate to take the whole plant to ascertain whose blood it might be.
Did the fibres match the fibres of the M&S pyjamas sourced by the PJ? No?
Therefore there was absolutely no evidence that Madeleine had tumbled over the balcony and was injured or killed as a result.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 13, 2016, 12:33:39 PM
6^1 5^2 4^3 3^4 2^5 Next must be 1^6 The answer is 1 Davel, which brings us back on topic because that is the number of alerts in the garden.
I like your style Peggy ?{)(**
There was this bloke named Matthew Zarella who used dogs to find MIAs in VietNam. He had some interesting things to to say about scent and how long it lasted. Another geezer named Andy Rebmann who wrote extensively on the topic did too.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 12:40:58 PM
Keela would have told them immediately if there was any blood scent there ... they only had to deploy her.
Had she alerted ... it would then have been appropriate to take the whole plant to ascertain whose blood it might be.
Did the fibres match the fibres of the M&S pyjamas sourced by the PJ? No?
Therefore there was absolutely no evidence that Madeleine had tumbled over the balcony and was injured or killed as a result.
Keela cannot deploy aerially half way up inside a climbing plant. There were various pink and white (natural and synthetic) clothing fibres on the wall behind the climbing plant. IMO the fibre forensics were inconclusive. Also there were two slightly different designs of these pjs IMO which might hypothetically include different fibre types.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2016, 12:41:57 PM
What was the point I wonder of taking foliage from a climbing plant?
Plants and trees take in nutrients from decomposing flesh ... as you yourself posted about the dog alerting to the branches of the tree where 'cadaver soup' had been discarded by the handler some time previously ... so unless any body had lain there and decomposed, the foliage from the plant could have told them nothing.
I would be of the opinion that was not an action advised by Martin Grime to be carried out because it shows a basic misunderstanding of the scent intelligence they were looking for.
No mention of whatever it was that was removed from the garden ... any ideas on that?
To my understanding they collected broken branches. Probably wondering the reason why they had broken off the climbing plant. Detective work needs to follow up this lead after Eddie was most interested in that area.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 13, 2016, 12:42:16 PM
IIRC it has been shown on here that the dogs alert to any human remains /fluids/ scents has it not? Please correct me if I am remembering this incorrectly.
That's one of them thar myths you keep on about.
"Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue".
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2016, 12:42:46 PM
There was this bloke named Matthew Zarella who used dogs to find MIAs in VietNam. He had some interesting things to to say about scent and how long it lasted. Another geezer named Andy Rebmann who wrote extensively on the topic did too.
there is a difference in remnant scent and that emanating from a body that is still in situ....two completely different situations
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2016, 01:01:59 PM
This search by Eddie was months after the body had been removed.
Further searches identified a location where the EVRD alerted in the front bedroom of the offender's empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had laid in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 01:05:23 PM
There were two slightly different versions of this pj top - see rear of collar http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P13/13_VOLUME_XIIIa_Page_3484.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/madjam_468x695.jpg
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
Why has the neck/collar tag been ripped off?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 01:10:55 PM
This search by Eddie was months after the body had been removed.
Further searches identified a location where the EVRD alerted in the front bedroom of the offender's empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had laid in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
which case is this on your link...do you have a name as I can't see it
found it now seems the house was unoccupied so undisturbed....how long after the death did the dog go in
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 13, 2016, 02:21:38 PM
Attracta Harron - nearly 4 months later. McCann case was only 3 months later.
Mr Mooney told the jury, the Fire Brigade had been called to a car fire at 12.57pm on December 11, 2003 to Hamilton’s home.
He said highly trained dogs were also employed on April 5, 2004 to search the property and the river, and it was through the dogs that the remains were found.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 13, 2016, 02:32:54 PM
To my understanding they collected broken branches. Probably wondering the reason why they had broken off the climbing plant. Detective work needs to follow up this lead after Eddie was most interested in that area.
Martin Grime said further investigation was required; if such was ever carried out it added nothing to Eddie's 'interest' since we have heard nothing further.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2016, 02:42:28 PM
Attracta Harron - nearly 4 months later. McCann case was only 3 months later.
Mr Mooney told the jury, the Fire Brigade had been called to a car fire at 12.57pm on December 11, 2003 to Hamilton’s home.
He said highly trained dogs were also employed on April 5, 2004 to search the property and the river, and it was through the dogs that the remains were found.
in this case the house was empty and therefore undisturbed...as opposed to the mccanns apt ...that makes a massive difference
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 13, 2016, 02:51:03 PM
To my understanding they collected broken branches. Probably wondering the reason why they had broken off the climbing plant. Detective work needs to follow up this lead after Eddie was most interested in that area.
They did get them checked for synthetic fibres, but there weren't any.
What doesn't appear to have been investigated is whether there was a crawl space under there or not.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 02:56:08 PM
Attracta Harron - nearly 4 months later. McCann case was only 3 months later.
Mr Mooney told the jury, the Fire Brigade had been called to a car fire at 12.57pm on December 11, 2003 to Hamilton’s home.
He said highly trained dogs were also employed on April 5, 2004 to search the property and the river, and it was through the dogs that the remains were found.
Attracta Harron was Eddie's finest hour....but it seems he had very few hours
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 13, 2016, 03:07:12 PM
in this case the house was empty and therefore undisturbed...as opposed to the mccanns apt ...that makes a massive difference
There were three or four different sets of people holidaying in the house in the intervening period. That would have involved a normal cleaning routine plus a deep clean between each occupancy.
Entirely different from an enclosed, undisturbed area.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 13, 2016, 03:33:57 PM
The alerts in jersey and PDL seemed unreliable.....modesty prevents me listing my finest hours
In Jersey in late 2008 "the new team in charge dismissed suggestions, made in February, that children could have been murdered or tortured at the care home." Are you satisfied with this dismissal of the cadaver dog alerts, and with the new team's conclusion that no murderers or torturers were ever at that place?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 13, 2016, 04:43:43 PM
No it hasnt Sadie I have never read any back up proof for cadaver dogs alerting to pee, poo, sweat, nose snot, toenails, used plasters, pork chops, bacon, black pudding, dead birds,animals,pizza or mushrooms...ad infinitum
If you think logically, then these dogs would be barking non stop
No, they would only alert when given the signal to search or whatever the handler would call it. Otherwise Eddie would also be barking at someone who had a bloody tissue in his/her pocket etc.
They do alert to mushrooms and decaying vegetation.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 13, 2016, 06:12:43 PM
In Jersey in late 2008 "the new team in charge dismissed suggestions, made in February, that children could have been murdered or tortured at the care home." Are you satisfied with this dismissal of the cadaver dog alerts, and with the new team's conclusion that no murderers or torturers were ever at that place?
I think there may have been abuse but no murders
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 13, 2016, 07:54:40 PM
In Jersey in late 2008 "the new team in charge dismissed suggestions, made in February, that children could have been murdered or tortured at the care home." Are you satisfied with this dismissal of the cadaver dog alerts, and with the new team's conclusion that no murderers or torturers were ever at that place?
Part of the problem for some in Jersey was that the cadaver and CSI dogs failed to substantiate the claims made of numerous murders committed in the children's home and the burial of the victims within the grounds.
They did their job, they found human decomposition, but forensic study of the items proved that there was no evidence that the alleged murders had happened.
They alerted to the things they were trained to among which were ...
the infamous tissues
historic human bone
milk teeth
an area where human ashes had been scattered
It is no reflection on the dogs if they fail to find what isn't there to be found.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 12:00:11 AM
Part of the problem for some in Jersey was that the cadaver and CSI dogs failed to substantiate the claims made of numerous murders committed in the children's home and the burial of the victims within the grounds.
They did their job, they found human decomposition, but forensic study of the items proved that there was no evidence that the alleged murders had happened.
They alerted to the things they were trained to among which were ...
the infamous tissues
historic human bone
milk teeth
an area where human ashes had been scattered
It is no reflection on the dogs if they fail to find what isn't there to be found.
Might be an idea to peruse the HG visitor book, just on the offchance there is an entry that rings every alarm bell?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 15, 2016, 12:10:49 AM
Part of the problem for some in Jersey was that the cadaver and CSI dogs failed to substantiate the claims made of numerous murders committed in the children's home and the burial of the victims within the grounds.
They did their job, they found human decomposition, but forensic study of the items proved that there was no evidence that the alleged murders had happened.
They alerted to the things they were trained to among which were ...
the infamous tissues
historic human bone
milk teeth
an area where human ashes had been scattered
It is no reflection on the dogs if they fail to find what isn't there to be found.
Dogs are not used to find evidence of murder, thats up to humans, theyare used to find evidence if death
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 07:09:49 AM
The dog alerts to the scent, the human finds the knife.
The dogs are used to find evidence...not just of death...that's the point. The dog may well find the knife itself...you appear to be arguing for arguing sake
the whole point is the dogs are used to find evidence...not just evidence of death
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: slartibartfast on April 15, 2016, 08:19:20 AM
The dogs are used to find evidence...not just of death...that's the point. The dog may well find the knife itself...you appear to be arguing for arguing sake
the whole point is the dogs are used to find evidence...not just evidence of death
So you are suggesting that a dog will alert to a forensically clean knife?
Not arguing for the sake of it, just pointing out the flaw in your case.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 08:22:27 AM
So you are suggesting that a dog will alert to a forensically clean knife?
Not arguing for the sake of it, just pointing out the flaw in your case.
According to Martin Grime the dogs would alert to a vestige of blood so tiny that it could not been seen by the naked eye or be detected by forensic examination.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 09:23:51 AM
Part of the problem for some in Jersey was that the cadaver and CSI dogs failed to substantiate the claims made of numerous murders committed in the children's home and the burial of the victims within the grounds.
They did their job, they found human decomposition, but forensic study of the items proved that there was no evidence that the alleged murders had happened.
They alerted to the things they were trained to among which were ...
the infamous tissues
historic human bone
milk teeth
an area where human ashes had been scattered
It is no reflection on the dogs if they fail to find what isn't there to be found.
However, it may be a reflection on the dog that he reacted to a piece of wood or coconut.
I say maybe, because there might have been something (else) in the vicinity (of the search) within the dog's scent-range he actually reacted to.
In which case, that would be a reflection on the handler, for not having the dog screen the area beforehand for pre-existing scents, we know (from the corrupted record of the inspection at the gym) inspections are supposed to be carried out.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 09:53:32 AM
However, it may be a reflection on the dog that he reacted to a piece of wood or coconut.
I say maybe, because there might have been something (else) in the vicinity (of the search) within the dog's scent-range he actually reacted to.
In which case, that would be a reflection on the handler, for not having the dog screen the area beforehand for pre-existing scents, we know (from the corrupted record of the inspection at the gym) inspections are supposed to be carried out.
for such a potentially important piece of evidence why didn't grime do a second test.....put the coconut in a bucket of sand and see if the dog reacts to it
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2016, 10:05:30 AM
I think I started the move to Off Topic, so my fault ... please take us back into the garden folks.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 15, 2016, 10:06:53 AM
for such a potentially important piece of evidence why didn't grime do a second test.....put the coconut in a bucket of sand and see if the dog reacts to it
Why would he have expected to find a piece of coconut buried in the ground ?
and can you tell me what kind of compounds coconuts would excrete in common with the decomposing remains of a body ?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 15, 2016, 10:07:54 AM
Why would he have expected to find a piece of coconut buried in the ground ?
and can you tell me what kind of compounds coconuts would excrete in common with the decomposing remains of a body ?
can you tell me it was the coconut fragment that eddie alerted to...no you cant...neither can Grime...the simplest thing to do would be to retest......intelligent people find simple solutions to problems
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 15, 2016, 10:31:39 AM
can you tell me it was the coconut fragment that eddie alerted to...no you cant...neither can Grime...the simplest thing to do would be to retest......intelligent people find simple solutions to problems
Well why don't you forward your request to the lab concerned, Kew Gardens forensic laboratory , by recollection.
Now if what I posted a few weeks ago is correct, the specimen was tested elsewhere by a non-standard procedure, and if true, has no value at all.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2016, 10:36:28 AM
Where is it positively stated Eddie alerted to anything in the garden.
Watching the video ... Martin Grime said he had shown some interest and it would need to be checked out ... but I never heard him saying anything about an alert. Eddie's trained response seemed to be barking continually until ordered to stop ... we saw none of that.
Did any of the items recovered from the garden and sent off for forensic testing show any connection to or trace of Madeleine ... or was it just an elimination process as recommended by Martin Grime?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 10:38:05 AM
Where is it positively stated Eddie alerted to anything in the garden.
Watching the video ... Martin Grime said he had shown some interest and it would need to be checked out ... but I never heard him saying anything about an alert. Eddie's trained response seemed to be barking continually until ordered to stop ... we saw none of that.
Did any of the items recovered from the garden and sent off for forensic testing show any connection to or trace of Madeleine ... or was it just an elimination process as recommended by Martin Grime?
the whole alert episode seems to be something of a shambles and that is part of the reason why no inferences can be drawn without forensic confirmation
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 15, 2016, 10:40:35 AM
Surely standard procedure in a forensics laboratory.
from what i can conclude they were not asked to It does not seem to have been sent to a forensic lab it was sent to a university lab for carbon dating. The technician immediately realised it was not bone when he drilled it and the low level of nitrogen meant carbon dating was impossible
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 15, 2016, 10:46:00 AM
can you tell me it was the coconut fragment that eddie alerted to...no you cant...neither can Grime...the simplest thing to do would be to retest......intelligent people find simple solutions to problems
I think you're perhaps misunderstanding Grimes role. Just like with the Renault alerts in Luz it wasn't his job to be involved in the forensic recovery of evidence. I wouldn't expect him to be even there when the digging took place, his job was done when Eddie alerted. The recovery was in other hands; the forensic anthropologist was the expert on things found. It was up to him/her to ask for screening of the found item if they thought it was necessary.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2016, 10:47:27 AM
from what i can conclude they were not asked to It does not seem to have been sent to a forensic lab it was sent to a university lab for carbon dating. The technician immediately realised it was not bone when he drilled it and the low level of nitrogen meant carbon dating was impossible
You too for off topic Davel ... I'm going to have to start deleting. Garden, please.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 15, 2016, 10:48:03 AM
deleted.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 10:56:27 AM
I think you're perhaps misunderstanding Grimes role. Just like with the Renault alerts in Luz it wasn't his job to be involved in the forensic recovery of evidence. I wouldn't expect him to be even there when the digging took place, his job was done when Eddie alerted. The recovery was in other hands; the forensic anthropologist was the expert on things found. It was up to him/her to ask for screening of the found item if they thought it was necessary.
I think you are...Grime put the keyfob into a bucket of sand as I remember and the alert was confirmed. Having seen the shambles re the coconut I would suggest that items are checked as I suggested to save the time and money involved in the lab testing
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 11:04:46 AM
I think you are...Grime put the keyfob into a bucket of sand as I remember and the alert was confirmed. Having seen the shambles re the coconut I would suggest that items are checked as I suggested to save the time and money involved in the lab testing
This business of checking the same stuff twice in different locations was a precursor of the modus operandi Grime would later employ on a different continent (America) in the Bianca Jones case (where D'Lane was ultimately convicted of her murder).
Grime used PdL as a sort of 'trial run' for an occasion (and an investigation) of that sort (at the time of PdL, unknown).
Reverting back on-topic, the alert in the garden, I have seen it suggested that Eddie might have alerted to a pig-based manure, recently used to manure the garden.
Seems plausible ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 15, 2016, 11:09:54 AM
This business of checking the same stuff twice in different locations was a precursor of the modus operandi Grime would later employ on a different continent (America) in the Bianca Jones case (where D'Lane was ultimately convicted of her murder).
Grime used PdL as a sort of 'trial run' for an occasion (and an investigation) of that sort (at the time of PdL, unknown).
Reverting back on-topic, the alert in the garden, I have seen it suggested that Eddie might have alerted to a pig-based manure, recently used to manure the garden.
Seems plausible ....
Why is it plausible ?
Perhaps you can provide a cite for that and any evidence for the use of pig products in the garden.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2016, 11:10:19 AM
I think you are...Grime put the keyfob into a bucket of sand as I remember and the alert was confirmed. Having seen the shambles re the coconut I would suggest that items are checked as I suggested to save the time and money involved in the lab testing
The alert being confirmed by the further alert in the sand bucket in combination with no further alert to the Renault, proving the key was the source ... it was still sent off to forensics and it was established the alert was to cellular material.
I don't know if Keela was used in the garden, didn't see her in the video ... if she was not it suggests to me that Martin Grime was of the opinion that Eddie did not alert in the garden. If he thought that he had alerted he would have brought Keela in as he did in the garage to check if Eddie was alerting to blood which Keela would have homed in on.
It is my opinion that there was no alert in the garden.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 11:13:30 AM
We are looking for some reason (within the dog's scent-range, obviously nothing to do with Madeleine) that would account for the alert.
If there is nothing, the dog screwed up, just as the dog screwed up in alerting to a coconut at HdLG.
I'm not sure he did screw up, Ferryman.
There is a forensic report regarding items from the garden in which the dog may or may not have shown an interest ... but did Martin Grime actually go further than what he said in the video about Eddie being interested and say he had alerted there.
If he did alert it wasn't backed up by forensics or Keela checking to see if he alerted to blood.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 11:26:31 AM
There is a forensic report regarding items from the garden in which the dog may or may not have shown an interest ... but did Martin Grime actually go further than what he said in the video about Eddie being interested and say he had alerted there.
If he did alert it wasn't backed up by forensics or Keela checking to see if he alerted to blood.
The standard protocol was (at least supposed to be) that stuff sent to the FSS was stuff alerted to by both dogs.
Was it not?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2016, 11:39:56 AM
The standard protocol was (at least supposed to be) that stuff sent to the FSS was stuff alerted to by both dogs.
Was it not?
In the verbal report by Martin Grime all I can find him saying is pretty much what we saw on the video ... I can't discover where the interest shown by the dog became an alert.
Does anyone have that reference?
Outside perimeter of apartments
We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on. Martin Grime http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
He has summed up every other alert from both dogs ... why wouldn't he mention the garden one?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 11:47:37 AM
In the verbal report by Martin Grime all I can find him saying is pretty much what we saw on the video ... I can't discover where the interest shown by the dog became an alert.
Does anyone have that reference?
Outside perimeter of apartments
We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on. Martin Grime http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
He has summed up every other alert from both dogs ... why wouldn't he mention the garden one?
Again, you need to take stock of what they were looking for, which was Madeleine's blood.
(Minute) traces of Madeleine's blood in the garden would have been as innocuous as minute traces in the apartment (even Amaral understood that).
So what was the point of an inspection in the garden?
Perhaps, to look for a body, but then, if that was the suspicion, you'd have expected them to excavate the garden.
They didn't.
So why inspect the garden?
And why ignore the alert?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 11:58:47 AM
In the verbal report by Martin Grime all I can find him saying is pretty much what we saw on the video ... I can't discover where the interest shown by the dog became an alert.
Does anyone have that reference?
Outside perimeter of apartments
We've searched the outer perimeter, there is some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on. Martin Grime http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
He has summed up every other alert from both dogs ... why wouldn't he mention the garden one?
All the work performed was recorded on video in image and sound.
Between 21h49 and 22h00, in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A, accessible from by way of the veranada and steps, the cadaver dog alerted in a garden-bed directly below the veranda.
Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 12:20:48 PM
All the work performed was recorded on video in image and sound.
Between 21h49 and 22h00, in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A, accessible from by way of the veranada and steps, the cadaver dog alerted in a garden-bed directly below the veranda.
Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
thank you for bringing amaral's lies to the forum...no wonder he has found himself in so much trouble
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 12:33:58 PM
thank you for bringing amaral's lies to the forum...no wonder he has found himself in so much trouble
What pathfinder quotes was actually written by Joao Carlos and (although it appears in McCannpjfiles) is not a part of the official files.
Unsure how it got in there, but it isn't indexed.
Carolos (at that point), like far too many others, was duped and deceived by the antics of the dog-handler ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 12:41:42 PM
Here is the whole extract from what Pathfinder quotes.
My justification for quoting the whole is extract is to expose something scandalous and wicked; inclusion (in, supposedly, the 'official' files) of something unofficial and not part of the body of released files.
Note the give-away absence, no official file reference number:
Quote
TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH BY ANNA ESSE Inspection of the apartments.
Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert), Eddie & Keela (English Springers) Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.
On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:
5A:
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through. 8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom. 8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road. From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through. 8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.
5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.
Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):
9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.
Date: 01 ao? 2007 - 06h00
Inspection of the surrounding areas.
Date: August 1st - 6am
After evaluation of the area surrounding the Ocean Club tourist village, based in Praia da Luz, taking account of the characteristic topography of the ground and the distance from where the small child Madeleine McCann disappeared, an inspection was carried out with the help of dogs specialised in the detection of cadaver odour, in various places, such as described:
1 - At 6.40am, an area between the "Piteira" road and the "Oliveira" road, was inspected. At 7.15am the inspection was completed with nothing being detected by the dogs.
2 - At 7.25am, an area adjacent to the "BEIJAFLOR" property on the "Figueira," road, defined by the "Ramalhete" road. An inspection of the whole area was made and nothing abnormal was noted. The inspection was completed at 7.45am.
3 - At 7.55am, an area between the "Casa Azul" residence on the "Figueira" road and the "Casa Pandora" residence as well as a dirt road on the left of the "Figueira" road was inspected by the dogs without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.05am.
4 - At 8.20am, an area between the residences "Casa Pandora" on the "Figueira" road, "Quinta Mimosa" and "Casa Ladeira" without anything abnormal being noted. The inspection ended at 8.40am.
A photographic report of the places inspected is attached.
Initial conclusion.
To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.
Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.
So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:
1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal. 2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.
We suggest that this inspection is entrusted to the PJ and ask the Public Prosecutor for a 20 day mandate. Thus, we consider that there are indications that consolidate strong suspicions according to which, there are elements of evidence of a crime, inside the vehicle used by the McCann's and, moreover, likely to reveal important details of fundamental importance for the investigation.
Villa rue des Fleurs.
Report:
August 2nd 2007 -6.14pm - 27 Rue das Floras- Praia Da Luz - Lagos
Participants:
PJ: Ricardo P & J. Carlos P., inspectors. UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime & Eddie.
On that date, within the context of a residential search, carried out at the McCann couple's current residence, an inspection by a dog handling team was made. Thus, at the time indicated at the beginning of the report, all areas of the property were inspected and the following results obtained:
6.36pm - The dog Eddie, who detects cadaver odours, "marked" the area of a cupboard in the living room. On checking, the dog was indicating a pink soft toy belonging to Madeleine McCann. The clothes.
Date: August 2nd 2007 - 11.20pm
On that date, following the home visit made to the McCann's' current residence, on the Rue des Fleurs, various items of clothing were laid out in an appropriate place for this purpose, to carry out an inspection by the dog handling unit.
The collected items of clothing were set out individually with the agreement and under the directions provided by the British technicians, the dogs having previously covered the space where the clothing was laid out.
1 - 11.20pm: Prior reconnaissance of the place by the two canine units to guarantee that the space was clear of all odours being sought. The reconnaissance was completed at 11.30pm without anything being signalled by the dogs.
2 - 11.30pm: An initial inspection by the human blood detecting dog, began with the clothing packed in the box bearing the notation: "Living room." At 11.40pm, the inspection was completed without the dog showing anything abnormal.
11.41: The canine human remains recovery dog started its inspection and "marked" various clothes. The inspection was completed at 11.52pm. The clothes were returned to their box for later use.
From 12.02am until 1.30am, (03/08/07) all the other boxes, containing clothing from the twins' bedroom, from the friends' bedroom, from the bedroom of the couple labelled 1 & 2, as well as the empty luggage, was inspected by the two dogs without conclusive results.
Apartment 5A - OCEAN CLUB
As joinder to the procedure. It is made known and according to superior orders that today at 8pm, specialists from LPC (Police forensics lab) Fernando V. and Lino R., after having seen the recorded images resulting from the inspection by the dog handling unit on 31/07/07 in apartment 5A, duly mandated, proceeded with the collection of whole floor tiles where the dogs used in the inspection indicated the possible existence of traces of human blood as well as the presence of a body in the apartment. The tiles were lifted so as to preserve possible samples to be analysed by the appropriate laboratory. This entire action was filmed in order to illustrate the way in which the lifting was accomplished and with what tools so that the experts had a better idea of the work.
Robert Murat/Casa Liliana
Report:
August 4th and 5th 2007.
Casa Liliana, residence of the suspect Robert Murat, situated on "Ramalhete" road - Praia da Luz - Lagos.
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A., chief inspector, J. Carlos P., Ricardo P, inspectors UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime and Eddie.
On that date, within the context of residential visits, which were carried out at the home of the suspect ROBERT MURAT, an inspection by the dog handling unit was made in the gardens and inside the residence of the accused.
August 4th 2007 - 7.28pm: Start of the inspection of the gardens of the residence. Eddie, human remains recovery dog, covered the whole perimeter outside the dwelling and nothing abnormal was signalled.
August 5th 2007 - 3.22pm: The same dog inspected all rooms of the residence and nothing in particular was signalled.
RUSSELL O'BRIEN
To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.
In the context of the investigation, we have collected information concerning a vehicle used by RUSSELL O'BRIEN, friend and member of the group who spent their holiday with the McCann family in the Algarve . At the time of the request for vehicles considered important to the procedures that follow, we were not aware of the identification details of this vehicle. Meantime, our investigation has led us to establish that it may be a vehicle of the "Opel" range, a "Corsa" model, registration....AG - 62. At the present time, we do not have a mandate to search for and seize the vehicle to allow us to add the vehicle to the planned inspections. As a consequence, we request such a legal mandate in order to be able to realize the planned inspections.
Samples sent to the lab.
Between 3pm on August 4th 2007 and 6.30am on August 5th 2007, the following samples were recovered in the living room of apartment 5A at the OCEAN CLUB where a murder probably took place.
Samples 1A to 3B: recovered on the floor. Samples 4A to 13B: recovered on the wall. Samples 14A to 15B: recovered behind the sofa. Sample 16A: recovered from the blue curtain. Samples 16B: recovered from the white curtain behind the blue curtain.
All of these elements have been handed over to the Birmingham Forensic Science Services. (FSS)
Samples recovered in the car.
Between August 6th at 9.30pm and August 7th at 4am, the following samples were recovered in the grey Renault Scenic car.
From the driver's side:
1A: Hair 1B: Fibre and hairs 1C: Fibres and hairs 1D: Fingernail
Front passenger side:
2A: Hair 2B: Hair 2C: Fibres and hairs 2D: Fibres and hairs 2E: Fingernail
Between the seats:
3A: Hair
Back seat:
4A: Hair 4B: Fibres and hairs 4C: Fibres and hairs
Centre seat:
5A: Hair 5B: Fibres and hairs 5C: Fibres and hairs
Right-hand seat:
6A: Hair 6B: Fibres and hairs 6C: Fibres and hairs
Luggage compartment (rear boot)
7A: Hair 7B: Fibres and hairs 7C: Fibres
8A: Hair 8B: Fibres and hairs 8C: Fibres and hairs
9, 10 and 11: Hair
12: Car key
13: Control samples of seat fabric
All of these were handed over to Birmingham FSS for analyses.
We know that Joao Carlos (who wrote the above) redeemed himself later and proved himself (over the whole investigation) a worthy and commendable PJ officer.
But the above was not his finest moment.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 12:48:22 PM
Here is the whole extract from what Pathfinder quotes.
My justification for quoting the whole is extract is to expose something scandalous and wicked; inclusion (in, supposedly, the 'official' files) of something unofficial and not part of the body of released files.
Note the give-away absence, no official file reference number:
We know that Joao Carlos (who wrote the above) redeemed himself later and proved himself (over the whole investigation) a worthy and commendable PJ officer.
But the above was not his finest moment.
Very definitely a genuine misunderstanding of Eddie's behaviour in the garden.
A mistake was made which has entered into the lexicon and which we have all accepted.
The video makes it clear that Martin Grime did not claim Eddie had alerted in the garden. Subsequently when enumerating alleged alerts he did not claim that there had had been an alert in the garden.
On that basis I think it is clear that Eddie did not alert in the garden and that any such claim is mistaken.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 01:34:27 PM
Very definitely a genuine misunderstanding of Eddie's behaviour in the garden.
A mistake was made which has entered into the lexicon and which we have all accepted.
The video makes it clear that Martin Grime did not claim Eddie had alerted in the garden. Subsequently when enumerating alleged alerts he did not claim that there had had been an alert in the garden.
On that basis I think it is clear that Eddie did not alert in the garden and that any such claim is mistaken.
Certainly I can't find a reference to the garden in anything Grime has written
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Eleanor on April 15, 2016, 01:49:36 PM
Didn't we all see Martin Grime saying that he should bring the dogs back again in daylight because he wasn't sure? Or was it just Eddie?
This never happened. So, A Dog's Breakfast.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 03:29:20 PM
"What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times." MG
Eddie clearly barks in the flower bed.
At 39 seconds for proof.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 03:37:54 PM
That certainly sounded like a bark (to me).
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 15, 2016, 03:50:13 PM
Very definitely a genuine misunderstanding of Eddie's behaviour in the garden.
A mistake was made which has entered into the lexicon and which we have all accepted.
The video makes it clear that Martin Grime did not claim Eddie had alerted in the garden. Subsequently when enumerating alleged alerts he did not claim that there had had been an alert in the garden.
On that basis I think it is clear that Eddie did not alert in the garden and that any such claim is mistaken.
So if Eddie, indeed, alerted in the garden, we are back to looking to some defence (for the dog) of why he did so.
Pig-based fertiliser is one (plausible) explanation.
Any others?
The proposition was that Eddie did not alert in the garden. The Archiving Report says he did. I merely pointed the proposition was incorrect and provided a link to the cite as per forum rules. Whether you can find it in the archiving report and how you want to dress it up is no concern of mine.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 04:35:43 PM
The proposition was that Eddie did not alert in the garden. The Archiving Report says he did. I merely pointed the proposition was incorrect and provided a link to the cite as per forum rules. Whether you can find it in the archiving report and how you want to dress it up is no concern of mine.
So Martin Grime made no reference to Eddie's alert in the garden.
Why not?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 04:36:38 PM
(snip) Eddie clearly barks in the flower bed. At 39 seconds for proof. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhgaJVARWz0
Probably some will claim that noise in the flowerbed is not necessarily a bark at all, and that the dog is just clearing his throat because he's tired out after a long pant, or he could be pining for the south yorkshire dales.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 04:37:50 PM
The proposition was that Eddie did not alert in the garden. The Archiving Report says he did. I merely pointed the proposition was incorrect and provided a link to the cite as per forum rules. Whether you can find it in the archiving report and how you want to dress it up is no concern of mine.
You have misunderstood what it says in the report Read it again
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 15, 2016, 04:47:36 PM
You have misunderstood what it says in the report Read it again
Just cut to the chase and tell us what you think it says.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 04:47:53 PM
Listening to the audio of this http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=56m21s 56m25 Loud bark = Eddie alerts in flowerbed 56m43 "... to really sort of make him..." 56m48 "... root, it must have been right at the root..." (the root of the large climbing plant presumably) 56m51 "...can you ..... it when you come in? ..." (can anyone hear what that verb is please?) 56m55"... yeah I think so ..."
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 04:58:07 PM
So, in summary, the video evidence is that Eddie alerted in the garden.
But Grime makes no reference in anything he has written to the alert (or even the inspection, I don't think) in the garden
Why not?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 05:02:40 PM
You have misunderstood what it says in the report Read it again
Here is the relevant page of the Report which you are reading Davel. Item 3 clearly states that the dog signalled in the garden. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4628.jpg
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2016, 05:32:12 PM
Here is the relevant page of the Report which you are reading Davel. Item 3 clearly states that the dog signalled in the garden. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4628.jpg
thanks...couldnt be bothered to look through it and hoped my post would produce just such a response
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 15, 2016, 05:42:29 PM
Here is the relevant page of the Report which you are reading Davel. Item 3 clearly states that the dog signalled in the garden. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4628.jpg
Would you please quote, from MG's written report, his observations about the nature of the alerts in the garden?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 06:23:38 PM
So the opening post asked for a link to Eddie's alert (in the garden) which was duly provided.
Where do we go from there?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 06:24:58 PM
Would you please quote, from MG's written report, his observations about the nature of the alerts in the garden?
I am interested in facts, and here the fact is that Eddie very clearly barked while he was in the flowerbed. Eddie is completely logical. I prefer to independently interpret the facts that Eddie states on video - and not rely on other humans' interpretations thanks.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 06:31:02 PM
I am interested in facts, and here the fact is that Eddie very clearly barked while he was in the flowerbed. Eddie is completely logical. I prefer to independently interpret the facts that Eddie states on video - and not rely on other humans' interpretations thanks.
Cuttings from the flower bed were sent to the FSS for analysis presumably for traces of Madeleine's blood.
I suppose the theory was that Madeleine might have fallen into the garden?
We are not off-topic, here, because the opening post places no restriction, beyond the alert in the garden.
I seem to recall it was an English technician who recommended that cuttings from the flower-bed be sent to the FSS.
I'm guessing they wanted to rule out that something dreadful befell Madeleine in the garden
That was ruled out.
Coming back to the central question, why did Eddie alert in the garden?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 06:42:29 PM
So the opening post asked for a link to Eddie's alert (in the garden) which was duly provided.
Where do we go from there?
Next step is look at plausible scenarios which might result in Eddie signalling the flowerbed. In the dog video, the panning of the camera after the alert, to show not only the 5A balcony above, but also the higher balconies and roof, implies that there was maybe an immediate hypothesis of some kind of fall? Also the next day coillection of branch material from the climbing plant and fibres from the wall near that plant implies there was possibly a hypothesis of a fall into the plant? I am not agreeing with those, just observing how the investigators were thinking.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 15, 2016, 06:48:02 PM
I am interested in facts, and here the fact is that Eddie very clearly barked while he was in the flowerbed. Eddie is completely logical. I prefer to independently interpret the facts that Eddie states on video - and not rely on other humans' interpretations thanks.
We have seen and heard Eddie alerting in the apartment at the couch area.
Also in the corner of the bedroom.
We have seen and heard him alerting at the cupboard in the villa and his performance at the Renault was unforgettable.
We have seen him throwing clothes around in the gymnasium.
That little woof in the garden is surely a little bit of an anti climax in comparison.
Why did Martin Grime report on all the alerts ... but didn't mention any alert in the garden?
Merely an academic question as none of the alerts really mean a thing.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 06:51:29 PM
BTW this isn't my hypothesis, it's straight from the warning notice in the lounge..
What would happen, hypothetically, if a child climbed and fell over the railing just outside the south bedroom?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 15, 2016, 06:52:01 PM
I am interested in facts, and here the fact is that Eddie very clearly barked while he was in the flowerbed. Eddie is completely logical. I prefer to independently interpret the facts that Eddie states on video - and not rely on other humans' interpretations thanks.
Eddie was facing his handler when he uttered a single bark. In light of the nature of all his other alerts, both in Luz & Jersey, what could be determined from one bark?
Eddie was facing his handler when he uttered a single bark. In light of the nature of all his other alerts, both in Luz & Jersey, what could be determined from one bark?
13m52 single bark 14m11 single bark Both inside 5a, not remarked upon.
Quote
Photos 2 through 8: External shots of the front and side of the apartment. According to information provided by the DIC of Portimao, on 31 July 2007 a search had been performed inside the apartment using English police dogs one specialised in the detection of traces of human blood and the other in the detection of human cadaver scent.
They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room and that the dog specialised in detection of human cadaver odour had detected the presence thereof in the couple's bedroom and in the back garden of the apartment.
Because of this it was also asked of the undersigned that they entered into contact with an English scientific advisor, named Jonathan Smith, who indicated which traces should be collected and the best way to proceed with their collection.
In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom,with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant.
It is not a little woof. It is a loud and clear woof. Possibly you mean it is a single woof, whereas the woofs in the bedroom, and in the lounge, were multiple?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 07:11:04 PM
The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.
John Lowe
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 08:53:32 PM
Eddie was facing his handler when he uttered a single bark. In light of the nature of all his other alerts, both in Luz & Jersey, what could be determined from one bark?
13m52 single bark 14m11 single bark Both inside 5a, not remarked upon.
IMO 13m52 is a the sound of a human moving a chair And 14m11 is Eddie clearing his nose, definitely not barking. BTW also at 16m07 Eddie clears his nose.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 15, 2016, 09:21:31 PM
IMO 13m52 is a the sound of a human moving a chair And 14m11 is Eddie clearing his nose, definitely not barking. BTW also at 16m07 Eddie clears his nose.
Isn't it curious that Pathfinder, you & I all have a different opinion of the same noises?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 09:27:11 PM
The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.
John Lowe
It doesn't have to be blood if a body was in the flower bed at some point. Maybe the abductor saw somebody coming and quickly hid the body in the flower bed.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 09:30:56 PM
It doesn't have to be blood if a body was in the flower bed at some point. Maybe the abductor saw somebody coming and quickly hid the body in the flower bed.
What body?
Either we find some (plausible) explanation for Eddie's alert such as pig-based manure, I Eddie alerted falsely, same as Eddie alerted falsely to cuddle-cat and alerted falsely to a coconut in HdLG ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 09:32:07 PM
Either we find some (plausible) explanation for Eddie's alert such as pig-based manure, I Eddie alerted falsely, same as Eddie alerted falsely to cuddle-cat and alerted falsely to a coconut in HdLG ....
The body SY are looking for. Maybe you missed their searches for it.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 09:43:07 PM
Isn't it curious that Pathfinder, you & I all have a different opinion of the same noises?
Yes it is Misty but please listen to it again. Eddie goes to the table area where there are chairs. It sounds like he knocked into one because he searches quickly.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 09:52:05 PM
You must look for an alternative explanation of an apparent alert there.
You don't know that when there was an alert. If the abductor came out that side with Madeleine then maybe somebody was coming so she was quickly hidden then retrieved when the coast was clear.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 15, 2016, 10:00:26 PM
You don't know that when there was an alert. If the abductor came out that side with Madeleine then maybe somebody was coming so she was quickly hidden then retrieved when the coast was clear.
I look at Eddie's track-record.
He first didn't alert to cuddle cat (but picked it up and played with it); then (after the toy was hidden in a cupboard) he alerted to it.
In HdlG, Eddie alerted to a piece of wood or a coconut.
That's not the kind of stuff cadaver dogs are supposed to do (any of it).
Adrian Prout, Eddie alerted in the matrimonial home when Prout murdered and buried his wife in an out-house, a few hundred yards away.
It all raises question-marks ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 10:16:29 PM
He first didn't alert to cuddle cat (but picked it up and played with it); then (after the toy was hidden in a cupboard) he alerted to it.
In PdL, Eddie alerted to a piece of wood or a coconut.
That's not the kind of stuff cadaver dogs are supposed to do (any of it).
Adrian Prout, Eddie alerted in the matrimonial home when Prout murdered and buried his wife in an out-house, a few hundred yards away.
It all raises question-marks ....
276 acre farm he lived on. CC was a toy. Dogs like playing with toys so MG hid it.
Depends on what reports you read:
Prout had shown officers an area of 300 square yards (250 square metres) on Redhill Farm but was unable to give the exact location.
Prout, who fathered a child with Ms Garlick after his wife's disappearance, was thought to have strangled her and then used his expertise as a professional pipe-layer to bury her body.
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 10:33:28 PM
276 acre farm he lived on. CC was a toy. Dogs like playing with toys so MG hid it.
Depends on what reports you read:
Prout had shown officers an area of 300 square yards (250 square metres) on Redhill Farm but was unable to give the exact location.
Prout, who fathered a child with Ms Garlick after his wife's disappearance, was thought to have strangled her and then used his expertise as a professional pipe-layer to bury her body.
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
Eddie did not find Theresa's body. He merely corroborated an alert by another cadaver dog at a particular location.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 10:39:03 PM
276 acre farm he lived on. CC was a toy. Dogs like playing with toys so MG hid it.
Depends on what reports you read:
Prout had shown officers an area of 300 square yards (250 square metres) on Redhill Farm but was unable to give the exact location.
Prout, who fathered a child with Ms Garlick after his wife's disappearance, was thought to have strangled her and then used his expertise as a professional pipe-layer to bury her body.
FBI Recruits Expert, K-9 From UK A dog who is trained to find human remains has been brought in from the United Kingdom to help in the search for Theresa Parker, the Walker County 911 operator who has been missing for almost six months. FBI Regional Director John Parrish said Martin Grimes and his English springer spaniel Eddie are some of the best in the world at finding bodies. Walker County Sheriff Steve Wilson introduced Mr. Grimes and Eddie at a press conference in LaFayette on Thursday afternoon.
Finding a body within a 300 yard area would be a fairly straightforward exercise.
And in the Theresa Parker case, Grime was required to task Eddie to find a sample pair of trousers (sic) laced with a cadaver scent.
Sounds, suspiciously, like pseudo-scent, to me ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 15, 2016, 10:58:54 PM
It is not a little woof. It is a loud and clear woof. Possibly you mean it is a single woof, whereas the woofs in the bedroom, and in the lounge, were multiple?
This is somewhat akin to British Rail and "the wrong sort of snow". In this case "the wrong sort of bark". Oh dear.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 15, 2016, 11:36:15 PM
This is somewhat akin to British Rail and "the wrong sort of snow". In this case "the wrong sort of bark". Oh dear.
If anyone had ever been responsible for safety on the railways they would know that the greatly increased stopping distances which can be caused by snow ice or leaves are serious matters, which sometimes require speed reductions and necessary delays. It is science that if you put a slippery substance between two bits of metal the friction is reduced, just as it is science that when a cadaver scent detector alerts, it means there is cadaver scent there.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Admin on April 16, 2016, 12:25:56 AM
Topic please!
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 16, 2016, 12:48:57 AM
If anyone had ever been responsible for safety on the railways they would know that the greatly increased stopping distances which can be caused by snow ice or leaves are serious matters, which sometimes require speed reductions and necessary delays. It is science that if you put a slippery substance between two bits of metal the friction is reduced, just as it is science that when a cadaver scent detector alerts, it means there is cadaver scent there.
Not strictly true. It means that the cadaver scent detector is responding to the chemical odours it has been programmed to react to. As the odour unique to human cadaver has yet to be identified. such odour may be present in other substances, naturally occurring or otherwise.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 16, 2016, 12:50:45 AM
Not strictly true. It means that the cadaver scent detector is responding to the chemical odours it has been programmed to react to. As the odour unique to human cadaver has yet to be identified. such odour may be present in other substances, naturally occurring or otherwise.
such as ? And Which did not exist anywhere in all the PDL search areas?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 16, 2016, 01:15:57 AM
such as ? And Which did not exist anywhere in all the PDL search areas?
If your smoke alarm goes off, is it scientific proof that your house is on fire or may it be as a result of someone smoking a cigarette near it?? If a carbon monoxide detector goes off, is it scientific proof that you have a faulty boiler or is there a forest fire outside?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 16, 2016, 01:27:29 AM
If your smoke alarm goes off, is it scientific proof that your house is on fire or may it be as a result of someone smoking a cigarette near it?? If a carbon monoxide detector goes off, is it scientific proof that you have a faulty boiler or is there a forest fire outside?
Its not scientific proof house is on fire but proof the detector picked up smoke...smoke is smoke
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 16, 2016, 01:55:52 AM
Its not scientific proof house is on fire but proof the detector picked up smoke...smoke is smoke
A smoke detector is not necessarily set off by smoke. It can react to heat, or condensation entering the unit which cuts off the electric current bouncing between the plates in the ionising chamber.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 16, 2016, 04:11:34 AM
I trust this rule will be applied strictly to all posters Although I don't have a cite at the moment I have read in one of grimes statements that Eddie alerts to body fluids and it is keela who only alerts to blood There was also an article posted on here Again no cite Which said that once dogs are trained to alert to a particular substance that skill cannot be unlearnt
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 16, 2016, 07:57:50 AM
We know that the claim of training on human remains is a pile of crock.
And we know that in the Sam Parker case, Grime was tasked to order Eddie to find a sample pair of pants perfumed with a cadaver scent (almost certainly pseudo-scents).
And we know that a primary constituent of pseudo-scents is cadaverine, also a constituent of urine.
Ergo, it seems reasonable to speculate that Eddie would react to urine.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 16, 2016, 09:36:22 AM
We know that the claim of training on human remains is a pile of crock.
And we know that in the Sam Parker case, Grime was tasked to order Eddie to find a sample pair of pants perfumed with a cadaver scent (almost certainly pseudo-scents).
And we know that a primary constituent of pseudo-scents is cadaverine, also a constituent of urine.
Ergo, it seems reasonable to speculate that Eddie would react to urine.
Cadaverine is just one of many compounds found in decomposition, a result of the breakdown of Lysine as I am sure your googling will show.
Occasionally found in urine in higher than expected levels, due to a certain metabolic condition.
However, Urine also contains other compounds as well.
So speculate away, but it doesn't mean someone urinated in the garden.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 16, 2016, 10:52:40 AM
"We know a joke about this don't we Billy" ? @)(++(* This really has got my sense of the ridiculous going. In order to account for Eddie alerting in a garden we have half the population, including the transients I guess, pi**ing over walls and off balconies so Eddie could detect it. Two gross assumptions here. 1 The pi**ing competition. 2 Eddie was not desensitised to urine. 'scuse me I must be off now I have a game of "pee sticks" arranged. It's like Pooh Sticks but .....................................
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 16, 2016, 02:33:06 PM
We know that the claim of training on human remains is a pile of crock.
And we know that in the Sam Parker case, Grime was tasked to order Eddie to find a sample pair of pants perfumed with a cadaver scent (almost certainly pseudo-scents).
And we know that a primary constituent of pseudo-scents is cadaverine, also a constituent of urine.
Ergo, it seems reasonable to speculate that Eddie would react to urine.
You have been informed repeatedly your first sentence is not true.
Why do you persist in it ?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 16, 2016, 03:57:21 PM
The photos I posted are of a jar used for training, and of a cadaver dog (Eddie) alerting to that jar during training in which the jar had been hidden. It doesn't look like pseudo-scent does it?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 16, 2016, 09:15:00 PM
The photos I posted are of a jar used for training, and of a cadaver dog (Eddie) alerting to that jar during training in which the jar had been hidden. It doesn't look like pseudo-scent does it?
What are the common elements between century old human skeletal remains & a human cadaver a few hours old?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 16, 2016, 09:40:42 PM
What are the common elements between century old human skeletal remains & a human cadaver a few hours old?
The common element is that both are detectable by a cadaver dog like Eddie. The CSST experiment found that detectability begins only after a post-mortem-interval of at least 1 hour 25 minutes.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 16, 2016, 10:17:15 PM
The common element is that both are detectable by a cadaver dog like Eddie. The CSST experiment found that detectability begins only after a post-mortem-interval of at least 1 hour 25 minutes.
An excellent article by a renowned specialist in her field. The training of a dog can only ever be as good as scientific knowledge permits. Eddie alerted to the jar because the contents of the jar were present, exposed & contained a smell he recognised (a limited number of chemical compounds due to the age of the skeleton). We have no evidence that Eddie was ever trained using cadaver as fresh as 1hr 25 mins post mortem.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 16, 2016, 10:31:49 PM
An excellent article by a renowned specialist in her field. The training of a dog can only ever be as good as scientific knowledge permits. Eddie alerted to the jar because the contents of the jar were present, exposed & contained a smell he recognised (a limited number of chemical compounds due to the age of the skeleton). We have no evidence that Eddie was ever trained using cadaver as fresh as 1hr 25 mins post mortem.
Precisely Misty, he has never been trained on a human source with such a short PMI.
Therefore the best information we have is the CSST experiment which indicated that detection requires a PMI of at least 85 minutes.
Try squeezing that into the almost universally assumed 9.05pm-10.00pm timewindow and it simply doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 16, 2016, 11:15:18 PM
That's where I got links to a few of her articles, after googling articles about research being conducted by a student at Huddersfield Uni. It's clear that whilst the UK's research into cadavers/dogs has progressed a lot since Eddie commenced training in 2003, we are still way behind the US.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 16, 2016, 11:49:00 PM
That's where I got links to a few of her articles, after googling articles about research being conducted by a student at Huddersfield Uni. It's clear that whilst the UK's research into cadavers/dogs has progressed a lot since Eddie commenced training in 2003, we are still way behind the US.
Oh indeed we are, and behind the RCMP, most US State Trooper organisations and US Marine Corps to name but a few as I posted several months ago. But on here seemingly "we" are happy to promote all sorts of blx. The reliability of research apparently is dependent upon how it affects the McCann case so anything that would tend to show Gene Keela & Eddie and Martin Grime were not w****rs is cobblers by definition .....yawn.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 16, 2016, 11:56:04 PM
Oh indeed we are, and behind the RCMP, most US State Trooper organisations and US Marine Corps to name but a few as I posted several months ago. But on here seemingly "we" are happy to promote all sorts of blx. The reliability of research apparently is dependent upon how it affects the McCann case so anything that would tend to show Gene Keela & Eddie and Martin Grime were not w****rs is cobblers by definition .....yawn.
One day I may properly understand what your posts actually mean but until then, ponder the question - why did SYP relinquish ownership of those 2 money-making assets?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: sadie on April 16, 2016, 11:58:40 PM
This has been thoroughly discussed before, as you must know.
At that time it was acknowledged that Eddie was doubly trained ... and the initial sort of training included bodily fluids, the other was just for Cadavar odour and blood.
I cant remember what the initial training was called .... but it is all there on the forum for you to find if you really want to re-see it.
When undertaking a new discipline of learning, a dog cannot UNLEARN training that he already has. He will alert to both types of scent.
Sorry but I am not going to waste the limited period I have left in life, searching for and reproducing infomation that you and others on here have already read.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 17, 2016, 12:19:18 AM
We've been through this a million times. He was deconditioned to urine otherwise he would be alerting to a lot of toilets @)(++(*. Go ask MG yourself and find out the truth from his trainer/owner.
Remember one important thing. In all the missing person cases Eddie has alerted to cadaver scent not one person has turned up alive. Now go chew on that bone.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 12:33:26 AM
We've been through this a million times. He was deconditioned to urine otherwise he would be alerting to a lot of toilets @)(++(*. Go ask MG yourself and find out the truth from his trainer/owner.
Remember one important thing. In all the missing person cases Eddie has alerted to cadaver scent not one person has turned up alive. Now go chew on that bone.
*snipped* As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
*snipped* As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.
One can only speculate as to how many of the 17 occasions resulted in alerts but no body.
We hear about successes when bodies are recovered.
We don't hear about the many occasions when that doesn't happen; under normal circumstances we should never have heard anything about Keela and Eddie in Praia da Luz because that search turned up nothing apart from very old blood which had nothing to do with the McCann family ~ fresh blood deposited by the officer tasked with lifting the tiles where the old blood was found ~ cellular material on a key fob from Madeleine's father ~ old blood in the boot of the Renault hire car with nothing to do with the McCanns.
The garden search where Eddie showed interest according to his handler turned up nothing of relevance to the McCanns.
Praia da Luz is just another case among the many where the dogs' deployment turned up nothing of value.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 01:58:54 AM
We hear about successes when bodies are recovered.
We don't hear about the many occasions when that doesn't happen; (snip)
What about the Gilroy case in Edinburgh? No body has ever been recovered. But we've certainly heard about the alerts by a South Yorkshire cadaver dog called Buster. And the successful conviction.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 02:38:14 AM
What about the Gilroy case in Edinburgh? No body has ever been recovered. But we've certainly heard about the alerts by a South Yorkshire cadaver dog called Buster. And the successful conviction.
Buster was one of 2 cadaver dogs deployed. Did the other dog alert to anything? Gilroy was convicted mainly through CCTV footage & mobile phone activity. Whilst he maintains his innocence, there would appear to be compelling circumstantial evidence of his guilt.
ETA - no alerts to the clothes he was wearing the day she went missing?????
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 17, 2016, 05:26:33 AM
This has been thoroughly discussed before, as you must know.
At that time it was acknowledged that Eddie was doubly trained ... and the initial sort of training included bodily fluids, the other was just for Cadavar odour and blood.
I cant remember what the initial training was called .... but it is all there on the forum for you to find if you really want to re-see it.
When undertaking a new discipline of learning, a dog cannot UNLEARN training that he already has. He will alert to both types of scent.
Sorry but I am not going to waste the limited period I have left in life, searching for and reproducing infomation that you and others on here have already read.
Which part of the first couple paragraphs refers to bodily fluids from live humans?
Buster was one of 2 cadaver dogs deployed. Did the other dog alert to anything? Gilroy was convicted mainly through CCTV footage & mobile phone activity. Whilst he maintains his innocence, there would appear to be compelling circumstantial evidence of his guilt.
ETA - no alerts to the clothes he was wearing the day she went missing?????
therefore supporting the validity of the dog alerts and not making them "meaningless" unless you like others thnk they may have been reacting to pee and mushrooms
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 17, 2016, 07:20:12 AM
This has been thoroughly discussed before, as you must know.
At that time it was acknowledged that Eddie was doubly trained ... and the initial sort of training included bodily fluids, the other was just for Cadavar odour and blood.
I cant remember what the initial training was called .... but it is all there on the forum for you to find if you really want to re-see it.
When undertaking a new discipline of learning, a dog cannot UNLEARN training that he already has. He will alert to both types of scent.
Sorry but I am not going to waste the limited period I have left in life, searching for and reproducing infomation that you and others on here have already read.
I remember this assertion being made before and it was not shown to be true at all. One of us is 'misremembering' it seems.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 08:16:24 AM
The dogs' alerts are to be considered as an area of interest or possible testing.
as I have repeatedly said the dogs alert show where to look for evidence and are not evidence in themselves...not even circumsatntial.
Harrison said no inference can be drawn from the alerts...yet many here and elsewhere do ...which shows they do not understand the alerts
Yet Redwood stated Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, and whilst still coordinating the investigation dogs were used and indicated nothing elsewhere.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 17, 2016, 08:45:04 AM
What about the Gilroy case in Edinburgh? No body has ever been recovered. But we've certainly heard about the alerts by a South Yorkshire cadaver dog called Buster. And the successful conviction.
The evidence which led to his prosecution and conviction was compelling ... his appeal against conviction failed.
As stand alone evidence the alerts of the cadaver dog would never have been presented in court ... that was all the justification they had in Portugal for making the McCanns arguidos, that and Piava's alleged recollections of a dream.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 08:51:26 AM
Yet Redwood stated Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, and whilst still coordinating the investigation dogs were used and indicated nothing elsewhere.
Redwood doesn't need the dogs to think maddie may have died in the apartment...cadaver dogs are only used when death has already been suspected...that is obvious
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 08:53:22 AM
Redwood doesn't need the dogs to think maddie may have died in the apartment...cadaver dogs are only used when death has already been suspected...that is obvious
Yet clearly Redwood and co., have never considered anything but abduction despite the lack of evidence to back it up.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 09:00:30 AM
So demonstrate where Redwood and his team, or since his departure Wall, have considered anything but abduction.
From the onset, it was a 1 sided investigation and on that basis, totally worthless.
IMO of course.
you demonstrate that Redwood has not interviewed the McCanns...you cannot..its all your opinion. We don't know what was considered. All just your opinion...my opinion is that he looked at all the facts ...decided the McCanns were not involved which makes abduction odds on...that's my opinion
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 09:25:11 AM
you demonstrate that Redwood has not interviewed the McCanns...you cannot..its all your opinion. We don't know what was considered. All just your opinion...my opinion is that he looked at all the facts ...decided the McCanns were not involved which makes abduction odds on...that's my opinion
So CITE when Redwood or any member of Operation Grange interviewed the mccanns or associates.
Looking at the facts, means investigating all scenarios, and that they clearly have not done.
It was a ONE SIDED INVESTIGATION from the start, as I predicted, and likewise , as I predicted, has found nothing, because there is nothing to find as regards abduction.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 09:40:10 AM
So CITE when Redwood or any member of Operation Grange interviewed the mccanns or associates.
Looking at the facts, means investigating all scenarios, and that they clearly have not done.
It was a ONE SIDED INVESTIGATION from the start, as I predicted, and likewise , as I predicted, has found nothing, because there is nothing to find as regards abduction.
you are now totally off topic and posting your opinion as fact...predictable
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 09:46:03 AM
I asked for a cite, which of course doesn't exist.
The abduction scenario is as dead as a Dodo.
As to predictability, that is what I see in your posts.
the fact that there is no cite does not mean the mccanns have not been interviewed. You have been told this many times. You are totally off topic and continue to promote your opinion as fact...that's all it is...your opinion. Unfortunately you cannot see that
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Eleanor on April 17, 2016, 09:56:13 AM
That is quite enough, thank you. No one knows whether or not The McCanns were interviewed by Scotland Yard.
But this is just going round and round in ever decreasing, Off Topic circles.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 10:03:55 AM
That is quite enough, thank you. No one knows whether or not The McCanns were interviewed by Scotland Yard.
But this is just going round and round in ever decreasing, Off Topic circles.
Alert in the garden.
We know.
and that is not extracting the urine.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 17, 2016, 10:51:17 AM
Forensic Search Dog A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Anyone who thinks that a 7 year old dog would still be used if he alerted to the above substances is flying in the face of logic imo.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Eleanor on April 17, 2016, 10:56:25 AM
Forensic Search Dog A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Anyone who thinks that a 7 year old dog would still be used if he alerted to the above substances is flying in the face of logic imo.
He was used, even though he alerted to Blood. Who knows what other substances he would alert to.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 11:02:43 AM
Forensic Search Dog A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Anyone who thinks that a 7 year old dog would still be used if he alerted to the above substances is flying in the face of logic imo.
anyone who doesn't accept that NO INFERENCE can be drawn from these alerts is ignoring the experts
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 17, 2016, 11:24:20 AM
Forensic Search Dog A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Anyone who thinks that a 7 year old dog would still be used if he alerted to the above substances is flying in the face of logic imo.
From the above link:
1) There is a significant potential for a dog handler to offer unintentionally misleading or improper testimony about the presence or absence of residual scent from decomposed human tissue.
Quite!
And in your post, you make a very pertinent point.
Grime, indeed, states (in his PdL profile) that Eddie (at the time Grime wrote it) was aged 7.
Grime is (purported) to have taken Eddie to America for this (alleged) 'enhanced' training in the New Year 2006.
Assuming Grime wrote his PdL profile in 2007, Eddie's age would have been the same as the last digit of the year, meaning (in 2005-6) Eddie would have been aged about 5 or 6 and then (certainly) 18 months from retirement as a police dog (even if he continued to work privately for Grime some time thereafter).
If we (in England) are going to indulge the expense and hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways outlawed as illegal and unethical in England, why would we indulge that expense and hypocrisy on a dog, at the time Eddie is supposed to have gone, aged about 5 or 6, and 18 months from retirement from police service?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 11:36:38 AM
One day I may properly understand what your posts actually mean but until then, ponder the question - why did SYP relinquish ownership of those 2 money-making assets?
Maybe because the handler left SYP? It is common practice for dogs to be retired out with their handler. Jeez you ought to know that. What my post meant is this: The world of McCannophilia is such that no law whether scientific or any other kind applies as it does elsewhere in the world if it is detrimental to the official line. The debates are a bit like a Sunday League football match. Only three rules. 1 If it's moving kick it. 2 If it's not moving kick it till it does. 3 When in doubt play the man not the ball.
Don't take it too seriously it's really jolly good fun all round and not supposed to make sense.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 11:42:33 AM
This article shows the alerts are not the exact science some think them to be.
Who said they were an exact science?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 11:49:05 AM
The stock response from "supporters" to articles posted seems to be: Gene Keela and Eddie were rubbish dogs with a rubbish handler. They can't be daft enough to think that worldwide the law is "all dogs and handlers are rubbish".......surely?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 17, 2016, 11:53:07 AM
The stock response from "supporters" to articles posted seems to be: Gene Keela and Eddie were rubbish dogs with a rubbish handler. They can't be daft enough to think that worldwide the law is "all dogs and handlers are rubbish".......surely?
Strawman.
Those of us on the side of truth of justice (for both Madeleine and Kate and Gerry) have never (particularly) had a grouse against the dog (even if the conclusion of official enquiry into the Haut de la Garenne debacle was that the dog was probably not very good).
Our grouse has long been against the dog-handler.
Get the distinction?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 17, 2016, 12:06:21 PM
Those of us on the side of truth of justice (for both Madeleine and Kate and Gerry) have never (particularly) had a grouse against the dog (even if the conclusion of official enquiry into the Haut de la Garenne debacle was that the dog was probably not very good).
Our grouse has long been against the dog-handler.
Get the distinction?
Your grouse is for anything which contestants abduction.
Got the distinction ?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Eleanor on April 17, 2016, 12:12:26 PM
I will be deleting anything further that looks even remotely like an Insult, or Off Topic.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: sadie on April 17, 2016, 12:33:51 PM
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.
So, as I said, Eddie alerts to bodily fluids in addition to blood and human remains.. Urine is a bodily fluid.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: faithlilly on April 17, 2016, 12:50:55 PM
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 17, 2016, 02:01:15 PM
(http://s23.postimg.org/hyunycr7v/coldcase5.jpg)
(http://s22.postimg.org/r5bksji4x/coldcase6.jpg)
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 02:05:44 PM
More details about the http://s23.postimg.org/8cvj7h8nf/cadaverdog2.png NY case mentioned by Pathfinder
"Later that day, the defendant's step mother met with Det. Gregory at his office. She informed the detective that the defendant had borrowed a 1995 Nissan Pathfinder (SUV) on June 30, 2001 and returned the vehicle on July 1, 2001 at about 3:00 p.m. Det. Gregory then drove the defendant's step mother home. During the ride, the detective asked the step mother if there was anything unusual about the SUV after it was returned to the step mother by the defendant. The step mother replied, "Funny that you should ask me that, my daughter on our way to the mall said to me, 'Mommy the back of the truck stinks'"".
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 17, 2016, 02:30:36 PM
"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."
Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 02:40:08 PM
"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."
Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.
Yes it's a US source. BTW a CSST experiment found that the minimum post-mortem interval required for even 1 out of 7 cadaver dogs to alert is 1 hour 25 minutes. http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 17, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."
Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.
The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider variety of scenarios. Pig is used as it has been proven in training and operationally over the last 20 years to be a reliable analogue for human remains detecting training for dogs. The possession of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).
Yes it's a US source. BTW a CSST experiment found that the minimum post-mortem interval required for even 1 out of 7 cadaver dogs to alert is 1 hour 25 minutes. http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Thanks, I remember reading that.
They needed to agree on terms to describe the dogs' various training capabilities for the purposes of the paper, but the terms don't appear to be universal. The problem is that Eddie doesn't fit into any of those categories. Neither does Keela, actually.
NB: Just seen the full paragraph on that:
"6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search. All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively conditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue. It must be kept in mind, however, that many dogs will react or show interest to any decomposed tissue at certain short times during the decomposition process."
I haven't found anything that specifically states what Eddie would or wouldn't react to in working mode (I have concerning Keela, but not Eddie).
I would normally assume that he had been desensitised to urine / faeces, but something that always intrigued me in the clothes video was the lack of underwear (aside from one pair of knickers). Was underwear deliberately excluded, or did none (aside from that one pair) just not happen to be in that box?
There is also Eddie's first alert (which for some reason didn't make it to the list noted by the PJ) of the tiny blue shorts. Could a toddler's wee-wee accident have contaminated other clothes in that box?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 17, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption as specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider variety of scenarios. Pig is used as it has been proven in training and operationally over the last 20 years to be a reliable analogue for human remains detecting training for dogs. The possession of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption).
Possibly. But then that also illustrates that even those trained solely on human remains are reacting to certain VOCs common to both (fewer than I'd originally assumed, depending on which research paper one wades through).
And then there was the research paper about chickens having more in common with humans than pigs.
I don't think they've got it worked out yet...
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 03:49:02 PM
They needed to agree on terms to describe the dogs' various training capabilities for the purposes of the paper, but the terms don't appear to be universal. The problem is that Eddie doesn't fit into any of those categories. Neither does Keela, actually.
NB: Just seen the full paragraph on that:
"6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search. All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively conditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue. It must be kept in mind, however, that many dogs will react or show interest to any decomposed tissue at certain short times during the decomposition process."
I haven't found anything that specifically states what Eddie would or wouldn't react to in working mode (I have concerning Keela, but not Eddie).
I would normally assume that he had been desensitised to urine / faeces, but something that always intrigued me in the clothes video was the lack of underwear (aside from one pair of knickers). Was underwear deliberately excluded, or did none (aside from that one pair) just not happen to be in that box?
There is also Eddie's first alert (which for some reason didn't make it to the list noted by the PJ) of the tiny blue shorts. Could a toddler's wee-wee accident have contaminated other clothes in that box?
Consider this: Every toilet, and the floor around it (unless it has just been cleaned or is a female only toilet) is contaminated by numerous splashes of human urine. Eddie did not alert in 5A bathroom, 5B bathroom, 5D bathroom, 5H bathroom, 4G bathroom, CL bathroom, Rua das Flores bathroom. It is evident that Eddie, much as as some people would like him to, does not alert to urine.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 17, 2016, 04:01:33 PM
Common sense should tell you all that but you don't see much on this board where it comes to dissing dogs.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 04:10:52 PM
Did no-one listen to that word in the audio of the garden dog video I couldn't make out? Also does anyone see the dog attempting to dig?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 17, 2016, 04:30:33 PM
Consider this: Every toilet, and the floor around it (unless it has just been cleaned or is a female only toilet) is contaminated by numerous splashes of human urine. Eddie did not alert in 5A bathroom, 5B bathroom, 5D bathroom, 5H bathroom, 4G bathroom, CL bathroom, Rua das Flores bathroom. It is evident that Eddie, much as as some people would like him to, does not alert to urine.
I'm aware of that, but he could be directed away from loos. The bathtub would be of more interest. I don't see how it could be useful for his work to NOT be desensitised: I'm thinking of all the grotty places such dogs would be expected to search (underground passways, etc.).
At the same time, I'm still intrigued by the lack of underwear and the fact that while there was a clear list for Keela, there wasn't one for Eddie. And the unclear response concerning the Jersey tissues.
A different possibility, that is something we still don't know, is if there is some kind of crawl space under that end of the building, and whether it was accessible.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 04:51:25 PM
Those of us on the side of truth of justice (for both Madeleine and Kate and Gerry) have never (particularly) had a grouse against the dog (even if the conclusion of official enquiry into the Haut de la Garenne debacle was that the dog was probably not very good).
Our grouse has long been against the dog-handler.
Get the distinction?
I did reply out of courtesy. The mods appear not to have liked my turn of phrase. Never mind eh ? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Eleanor on April 17, 2016, 04:54:33 PM
"All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively deconditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue."
Erm... Is that a US source? A bit difficult when UK dogs were trained on human blood and dead piglets.
How does one desensitise a dog? Beat it out of him?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 04:59:15 PM
'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain.
So, as I said, Eddie alerts to bodily fluids in addition to blood and human remains.. Urine is a bodily fluid.
Human remans emit fluids.....ergo not from alive people, ergo not from someone taking a leak!
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 17, 2016, 07:06:13 PM
With respect, John, that was done-and-dusted by about the third post on page one.
Someone requested a video of the dog alert, which was duly provided.
And it is on record that the dog alerted.
The idea that the dog intelligence says who did anything is incorrect. The garden alert (and the ones inside) could be the result of a crime by a stranger. Why don't supporters ever follow that line?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: slartibartfast on April 17, 2016, 09:33:48 PM
The idea that the dog intelligence says who did anything is incorrect. The garden alert (and the ones inside) could be the result of a crime by a stranger. Why don't supporters ever follow that line?
Because it implies an unacceptable level of guilt and responsibility.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 09:52:37 PM
Because it implies an unacceptable level of guilt and responsibility.
Even those who are completely convinced this was a crime by a stranger, should be using that garden alert (and the alerts inside) as intelligence to catch that stranger.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 10:04:00 PM
Even those who are completely convinced this was a crime by a stranger, should be using that garden alert (and the alerts inside) as intelligence to catch that stranger.
Grime referred to a smell in the garden as he stood close to where Eddie barked once in the garden. If there was odour detectable by a human nose, then there must have been a remnant source. That should have been investigated unless the odour was identified - and it may have been the reason for Eddie's limited interest.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 17, 2016, 10:12:55 PM
Even those who are completely convinced this was a crime by a stranger, should be using that garden alert (and the alerts inside) as intelligence to catch that stranger.
I'm convinced this is a crime by a stranger but I am not convinced by the alerts. Why should I draw an inference from an alert when Harrison said no inference can be drawn
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 17, 2016, 10:25:01 PM
Grime referred to a smell in the garden as he stood close to where Eddie barked once in the garden. If there was odour detectable by a human nose, then there must have been a remnant source. That should have been investigated unless the odour was identified - and it may have been the reason for Eddie's limited interest.
He picked something up and put it in his pocket ... what was it?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 17, 2016, 10:43:28 PM
He picked something up and put it in his pocket ... what was it?
No he certainly does not put anything in his pocket Brietta. Watch carefully, and (important) listen too. Then I predict you'll drop the accusation. And while you're there, can you hear what that word is which I asked about earlier?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 17, 2016, 10:56:23 PM
He picked something up and put it in his pocket ... what was it?
Having now looked at the scenes in freeze-frame, I can't see anything in his hand. The strap of the torch is dangling around but I don't see him putting anything in his pocket (unless you can give me a precise time to see otherwise).
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 12:01:28 AM
Having now looked at the scenes in freeze-frame, I can't see anything in his hand. The strap of the torch is dangling around but I don't see him putting anything in his pocket (unless you can give me a precise time to see otherwise).
He picks something up (probably just a stone), examines it in torchlight, realises its of no interest, and then ... listen. But of much more interest is what is said about the flowerbed, does anyone else hear what Misty and I hear?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 12:07:15 AM
Again I'm asking for ears. What is the word where is green stars? Misty has answered. Anyone else? http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=56m21s 56m25 Loud bark = Eddie alerts in flowerbed 56m43 Handler: "to really sort of make him" 56m48 Handler: "root, it must have been right at the root" 56m51 Handler: "can you ***** it when you come in?" 56m55 Man2: "yeah I think so" 56m00 Man2: "I'm getting .. something"
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 12:51:36 AM
I'm convinced this is a crime by a stranger but I am not convinced by the alerts. Why should I draw an inference from an alert when Harrison said no inference can be drawn
Because it is most important for the innocent relatives that this gets solved Davel.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 18, 2016, 01:03:22 AM
Again I'm asking for ears. What is the word where is green stars? Misty has answered. Anyone else? http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=56m21s 56m25 Loud bark = Eddie alerts in flowerbed 56m43 Handler: "to really sort of make him" 56m48 Handler: "root, it must have been right at the root" 56m51 Handler: "can you ***** it when you come in?" 56m55 Man2: "yeah I think so" 56m00 Man2: "I'm getting .. something"
You are of the opinion the PJ should have dug up that area?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 01:24:56 AM
You are of the opinion the PJ should have dug up that area?
That garden and balcony video requires more study Misty. The handler says "... interest .... but not enough to make him really ..." But see the dog tunneling his nose way into the undergrowth at one place. The tiny alert from above (nose through railing) is also puzzling.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2016, 01:34:04 AM
Having now looked at the scenes in freeze-frame, I can't see anything in his hand. The strap of the torch is dangling around but I don't see him putting anything in his pocket (unless you can give me a precise time to see otherwise).
57:10 using flashlight bends forward to pick up something from the ground 57:13 studies something held between thumb and forefinger of left hand by torchlight 57:17 says " ... take a look at this tomorrow in daylight" 57:18 left hand goes down out of sight ... I don't see the object being returned to where it was picked up 57:27 says, "come back in daylight" another says "yeah"
57:34 "tell me, Martin what ... ??? " Martin replies "No ..."
57:43 "the em ~ we've searched the em outer perimeter and em there's some interest here but it will take some further examination to see what's going on
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2016, 01:49:19 AM
That garden and balcony video requires more study Misty. The handler says "... interest .... but not enough to make him really ..." But see the dog tunneling his nose way into the undergrowth at one place. The tiny alert from above (nose through railing) is also puzzling.
I don't think it requires any more study than we have already given it, Pegasus. In my opinion if Eddie had alerted Martin Grime would have said so on camera ... and of course he was 'interested', it was his job to be interested in the search for odours and that was what he was doing.
Don't place too much reliance on the continuity of the video. There are edits; for example one just prior to 57:10.
If the humans could smell something it was neither residual scent or a cadaver in situ ... Eddie would have alerted and so would Martin Grime. If what I have read about the smell emitted from rotting human remains is true ... once smelt, never forgotten or mistaken for anything else ... and Martin Grime knew what that smelt like by the nature of his job.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 02:37:08 AM
You may be right Brietta but remember that old saying - leave no stone unturned
The humans could not possibly smell the same thing that an infinitely more capable dog could barely smell.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 18, 2016, 07:29:35 AM
Because it is most important for the innocent relatives that this gets solved Davel.
the alerts add nothing to the investigation
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2016, 09:39:34 AM
They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room and that the dog specialised in detection of human cadaver odour had detected the presence thereof in the couple's bedroom and in the back garden of the apartment.
Because of this it was also asked of the undersigned that they entered into contact with an English scientific advisor, named Jonathan Smith, who indicated which traces should be collected and the best way to proceed with their collection.
In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant.
He advised further that after the recovery of the tiles the animal specialised in detection of human blood should perform another search of the area from where the tiles had been recovered to verify [check for] the existence of possible human blood in the area from where the tiles had been lifted.
They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room and that the dog specialised in detection of human cadaver odour had detected the presence thereof in the couple's bedroom and in the back garden of the apartment.
Because of this it was also asked of the undersigned that they entered into contact with an English scientific advisor, named Jonathan Smith, who indicated which traces should be collected and the best way to proceed with their collection.
In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant.
He advised further that after the recovery of the tiles the animal specialised in detection of human blood should perform another search of the area from where the tiles had been recovered to verify [check for] the existence of possible human blood in the area from where the tiles had been lifted.
They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room and that the dog specialised in detection of human cadaver odour had detected the presence thereof in the couple's bedroom and in the back garden of the apartment.
Because of this it was also asked of the undersigned that they entered into contact with an English scientific advisor, named Jonathan Smith, who indicated which traces should be collected and the best way to proceed with their collection.
In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant.
He advised further that after the recovery of the tiles the animal specialised in detection of human blood should perform another search of the area from where the tiles had been recovered to verify [check for] the existence of possible human blood in the area from where the tiles had been lifted.
The point is that not one teeny weensy smidgeon of the blood from the tiles had anything to do with Madeleine's case ... I admit the photograph in the files with all the markers on the surrounding wall looks as if a chain saw massacre had taken place there ... but nothing at all to do with anyone we know about.
All that episode proved was that Keela alerted to blood.
If Eddie alerted in the garden and outside the bedroom window ... why didn't Martin Grime say so to camera, which is the source of the verbal report? When and how and by whom was that transcribed to contain information about alerts not mentioned in the verbal report?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2016, 10:52:55 AM
The point is that not one teeny weensy smidgeon of the blood from the tiles had anything to do with Madeleine's case ... I admit the photograph in the files with all the markers on the surrounding wall looks as if a chain saw massacre had taken place there ... but nothing at all to do with anyone we know about.
All that episode proved was that Keela alerted to blood.
If Eddie alerted in the garden and outside the bedroom window ... why didn't Martin Grime say so to camera, which is the source of the verbal report? When and how and by whom was that transcribed to contain information about alerts not mentioned in the verbal report?
You don't know what was discussed after filming stopped. This was late at night in the dark. We know they went back to the garden to collect items.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 18, 2016, 10:54:45 AM
Using the best dogs in the world nothing was found...that suggests there was nothing to find.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Alice Purjorick on April 18, 2016, 10:56:25 AM
Does anyone know* the contractual relationship between all the parties? PJ LP NPIA SYP MG It might be interesting to know.
*as in know for sure with docs to back it up, not just another "well I fink" or "it's common sense innit".
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2016, 10:58:21 AM
Using the best dogs in the world nothing was found...that suggests there was nothing to find.
"The forensic evidence gathered at the time of Madeleine’s disappearance has been stored at the National Institute for Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra in central Portugal."
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 18, 2016, 11:09:32 AM
"The forensic evidence gathered at the time of Madeleine’s disappearance has been stored at the National Institute for Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in Coimbra in central Portugal."
so in the words of alice..."well I fink"...are you saying there is more evidence
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 18, 2016, 11:17:42 AM
I've tried listening again.
I haven't always been able to stop at the precise second.
I've marked "G" for Grime (his voice is quite distinctive). "H" for the other male English voice. "PT" for a male voice with a foreign accent.
56:26 Bark. “Heel” (or “here”) …
56:27-8 “There you go”.
56:36-37 H: “There’s something up there ?” 56:38 G: “ isn’t half… 56:40 -50 G: “it’s interesting… not enough to really … make him… maybe get a good (inaudible) … roots , (inaudible)… must have been right (inaudible) his reach (?).”
56: 50 G: Question (turning around) “Now you can (sight / light?) me, can you (sight / light?) me?
56:56 H: Yeah, I think so.
56:58 H: Did you get a flashlight? PT voice: Yes. Can I.”
57:02 “Getting a.. something. Yes, so this is.”
H? "(Inaudible)... There’s no need to…”
57:12 G (Picks up item from undergrowth - Slight sound could be Grime throwing it back down.)
57: 15 H: “Let’s have a look at this tomorrow, in daylight.” 57:20 G “… torch…” 57:21 H: “Hmm, yeah.”
57:25 H: “Come back in daylight.” 57:30 G “Yeah”
57:32: “(inaudible) too much interest here” H?: Yeah.
57:34 PT: Tell me Martin, what…? 57:37 G: No.
57:42 G to camera: “The, hmm. We’ve searched the, hmm, the outer perimeter and, hmm, there is some interest here, but it will take some further examination to see what’s going on.” PT: OK.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 12:56:00 PM
Thanks Brietta and Carana for your transcripts. IMO it's not completely clear whether he asks "can you sight" or "can you smell"
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: parapono on April 18, 2016, 01:13:07 PM
Does anyone know* the contractual relationship between all the parties? PJ LP NPIA SYP MG It might be interesting to know.
*as in know for sure with docs to back it up, not just another "well I fink" or "it's common sense innit".
It might be good to add the FSS to your list.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2016, 01:15:24 PM
This photo shows the actual height of the climbing plant behind the railing on that night 3rd/4th May. What is the height of the top of that railing above the balcony floor? Which light is the outdoors section of the restaurant?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2016, 01:16:52 PM
Some parts of the garden are visible to pedestrians just outside the street gate, and some parts aren't. The alert location (corner of flowerbed near base of that climbing plant) is not visible from the streetgate.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 18, 2016, 02:50:12 PM
Thanks Brietta and Carana for your transcripts. IMO it's not completely clear whether he asks "can you sight" or "can you smell"
Can't work it out. In one, what I heard sounded more like "sight / light" - which was just before someone turned up with a flashlight / torch.
In another instance, earlier on, what I think I heard sounded more "sm..."
Really hard to tell.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 18, 2016, 03:30:04 PM
I can understand that they didn't want to attract more attention than necessary, but what light were they actually trying to work from that night before someone eventually found a flashlight / torch?
How long had Eddie been in work mode by that time? Grime looks quite exhausted by then as well.
Something did seem to be of interest to Eddie, but his single barks seem in contrast to other occasions of multiple barks in quick succession.
Was the interest in the balcony a smell coming up from garden level that he couldn't quite pinpoint? If so, he showed interest at ground level, but again only isolated single barks.
Could he have been too tired at that point?
Were he and Keela taken back the next day?
If there had been any sign of digging in that small garden bed, wouldn't it have been noticeable?
If someone had dug up a mature climbing plant to bury something, wouldn't the bush have shown signs of ill health?
Was a crawl space or some kind of drain ever excluded?
If patio windows had been opened on occasion (almost certainly during summer lets), could whatever was in the garden bed have wafted up and accumulated in the flat?
Was a ground soil analysis ever done?
Lots of questions... few answers.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2016, 03:51:09 PM
They found more answers by doing further searches on clothes, vehicles etc.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 18, 2016, 04:03:13 PM
They found more answers by doing further searches on clothes, vehicles etc.
I find the clothes analysis to be incomprehensible. I can't find any consistency between Eddie's reactions and what was noted by the PJ. For some reason, Grime said that he wasn't in possession of the details of what the dog alerted to.
Didn't Harrison keep a record?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 18, 2016, 04:13:44 PM
You don't know what was discussed after filming stopped. This was late at night in the dark. We know they went back to the garden to collect items.
We've seen the video ... we've heard the commentary ... we know Eddie may have been interested from that, but there was never any mention of an alert. Maybe something added in translation?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 18, 2016, 05:16:58 PM
The most recent (literally today!) news confirms that Eddie's alert in the garden had nothing whatever to do with Madeleine ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2016, 05:35:37 PM
I can understand that they didn't want to attract more attention than necessary, but what light were they actually trying to work from that night before someone eventually found a flashlight / torch?
How long had Eddie been in work mode by that time? Grime looks quite exhausted by then as well.
Something did seem to be of interest to Eddie, but his single barks seem in contrast to other occasions of multiple barks in quick succession.
Was the interest in the balcony a smell coming up from garden level that he couldn't quite pinpoint? If so, he showed interest at ground level, but again only isolated single barks.
Could he have been too tired at that point?
Were he and Keela taken back the next day?
If there had been any sign of digging in that small garden bed, wouldn't it have been noticeable?
If someone had dug up a mature climbing plant to bury something, wouldn't the bush have shown signs of ill health?
Was a crawl space or some kind of drain ever excluded?
If patio windows had been opened on occasion (almost certainly during summer lets), could whatever was in the garden bed have wafted up and accumulated in the flat?
Was a ground soil analysis ever done?
Lots of questions... few answers.
Risible that they filmed in the dark without proper lighting.
Agreed that Martin Grime looked Exhausted.
The garden was searched and not I imagine for the first time that night as it was the logical place to check for a child who might have wakened and wandered ...
**Snip One hour into the search by holiday makers of the hotel and surrounding areas, about 23.00 hrs, Mr McKenzie approached the McCann's apartment from the bushes at the rear of the apartment.
He was searching the gardens. He did not know it was the McCann's apartment.
He saw Mr Gerry McCann standing alone in the doorway at the rear of the apartment talking on his mobile telephone.
Mr McCann was looking our over the swimming pool and did not see Mr McKenzie.
Mr McCann was absolutely distraught ... http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GRAHAM-MCKENZIE.htm
As far as the construction of the flats is concerned I imagine being built on such a slope there would be a necessity for it to be well anchored. All I could find about the foundation of such buildings was as follows ... and whether applicable to Praia da Luz I have no idea.
**snip Construction of flats in Quinta de São Mateus Dafundo, Lisbon, Portugal
It was necessary to provide a gallery within the basements of flats to ensure access for restressing of the anchors in the future. Twenty-five load cells were also installed to monitor the actual load of the DYWIDAG Strand Anchors. https://www.dywidag-systems.at/en/projects/project-details/article/quinta-de-saeo-mateus-dafundo-lisbon-portugal.html
I would imagine that there would also be access for the maintenance of other services.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2016, 05:49:02 PM
I find the clothes analysis to be incomprehensible. I can't find any consistency between Eddie's reactions and what was noted by the PJ. For some reason, Grime said that he wasn't in possession of the details of what the dog alerted to.
Didn't Harrison keep a record?
The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz. During the first week of her disappearance the GNR tasked personnel to search through the village for the scenario of Madeleine still being alive. This involved visiting dwellings and business premises and a physical search of the refuse bins. A full scale re-search of the village is not currently advised due to its speculative nature and resource implications. Should new information or intelligence identify a specific location then it would be recommended to re-search it adopting the similar model of reconnaissance followed by a search using several detecting methods as detailed in this report to provide a high assurance of detection for a concealed body.
At the conclusion of this initial process of “clearing the ground under your feet” I am satisfied a systematic review and search procedure has been conducted and accurately recorded by the PJ.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 18, 2016, 05:52:34 PM
@ Brietta.
Agreed.
Not being very techie myself, an architect friend had a look at the layout and drew me two diagrams (since lost) of likely foundations. One involved what would apparently have been a very expensive solution and the other would have involved a gradually larger crawl space towards that end of the building.
The question my friend asked was whether anyone had contacted the architect responsible for a definitive answer. Still a good question... did the police ever do so?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Brietta on April 18, 2016, 06:08:19 PM
Not being very techie myself, an architect friend had a look at the layout and drew me two diagrams (since lost) of likely foundations. One involved what would apparently have been a very expensive solution and the other would have involved a gradually larger crawl space towards that end of the building.
The question my friend asked was whether anyone had contacted the architect responsible for a definitive answer. Still a good question... did the police ever do so?
My money would be on the cheaper option being used leaving the larger crawlspace underneath 5A similar to Casa Liliana.
**snip Des Taylor, the British architect who built Casa Liliana in 1993, told police of its existence after realising they were examining the house, which is 80 yards from where Madeleine went missing.
**snip The retired civil engineer, 78, said: "The house was built on a hill but it had to be horizontal, so there is a big space underneath. Effectively the entire living room has a hollow floor. "It is a big room, nine metres long, five metres wide and one and a half metres deep. "We didn't fill it in when we finished the house. We just put a paving slab over it and tiled the floor." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-455144/Madeleine-Police-swoop-Russian-experts-flat.html#ixzz46CNmhH2S
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: ferryman on April 18, 2016, 06:13:02 PM
The searches described in this document were limited to certain locations. Therefore, it can not be said that the concealed remains of Madeleine McCann are not within the village of Praia da Luz. During the first week of her disappearance the GNR tasked personnel to search through the village for the scenario of Madeleine still being alive. This involved visiting dwellings and business premises and a physical search of the refuse bins. A full scale re-search of the village is not currently advised due to its speculative nature and resource implications. Should new information or intelligence identify a specific location then it would be recommended to re-search it adopting the similar model of reconnaissance followed by a search using several detecting methods as detailed in this report to provide a high assurance of detection for a concealed body.
At the conclusion of this initial process of “clearing the ground under your feet” I am satisfied a systematic review and search procedure has been conducted and accurately recorded by the PJ.
We know that (at least in parts) the procedure was not accurately recorded by the PJ.
The PJ did not accurately record the inspection in the gym (for example) although the still greater scandal is that there was inspection in the gym at all ....
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: slartibartfast on April 18, 2016, 06:45:46 PM
We know that (at least in parts) the procedure was not accurately recorded by the PJ.
The PJ did not accurately record the inspection in the gym (for example) although the still greater scandal is that there was inspection in the gym at all ....
No one has called it a scandal except you No one has called grime a disgrace but you No one has said it was a pj murder enquiry but you No one has stated Grime never went to the usa wth eddie except you You seem to type alot of thngs that are your opinion and attempting to pass them off as facts, but we inow you dont care, as its all been debunked, but you carry on regardless
feel free to post facts with credible cites hereonin
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2016, 02:35:17 AM
The most recent (literally today!) news confirms that Eddie's alert in the garden had nothing whatever to do with Madeleine ....
Did you notice that the very senior policeman who gave the press release is head of h******* Ferryman? VR dog alerts are taken very seriously in that department
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 06:51:51 AM
The most recent (literally today!) news confirms that Eddie's alert in the garden had nothing whatever to do with Madeleine ....
This news?
He told the Standard: “There is a missing girl and if she has been murdered and if we think we have got justifiable and reasonable lines of inquiry to pursue then they should be dealt with.” http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/madeleine-mccann-detective-we-still-hope-to-find-her-alive-a3227561.html
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 07:17:35 AM
He told the Standard: “There is a missing girl and if she has been murdered and if we think we have got justifiable and reasonable lines of inquiry to pursue then they should be dealt with.” http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/madeleine-mccann-detective-we-still-hope-to-find-her-alive-a3227561.html
you are quoting selectively...the report says maddie may still be alive...that would mean they are prepared to ignore all the alerts...fact
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: slartibartfast on April 19, 2016, 07:36:00 AM
The chief honcho wasn't even as certain as that - He was talking only of a possibility, which, to me, suggests that they have no certainty as to what happened.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 09:21:06 AM
you are quoting selectively...the report says maddie may still be alive...that would mean they are prepared to ignore all the alerts...fact
I'm posting what the man said, you are not;
There is always a possibility that we will find Madeleine and we hope that we will find her alive.
That means imo that there's an outside chance they will find her. In the event that they do, they hope she will be alive.
I wonder what the odds are that four people sitting in an office in London are going to find a child who went missing in Portugal 9 years ago. Four men who don't know what happened, don't know how she was removed from the apartment or who removed her.
I wonder where they got the idea that she could have been murdered then? Woof!
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 09:33:35 AM
There is always a possibility that we will find Madeleine and we hope that we will find her alive.
That means imo that there's an outside chance they will find her. In the event that they do, they hope she will be alive.
I wonder what the odds are that four people sitting in an office in London are going to find a child who went missing in Portugal 9 years ago. Four men who don't know what happened, don't know how she was removed from the apartment or who removed her.
I wonder where they got the idea that she could have been murdered then? Woof!
they have said repeatedly that Maddie may still be alive...you are in denial.......do you really believe they think maddie may have been murdered based on the dog alerts...if the dogs had never been to PDL it is quite obvious taht Maddie may have been the victim of a murder. you are drawing an inference from the alerts...do I really need to continually remind you what Harrison said about this
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Benice on April 19, 2016, 09:49:29 AM
There is always a possibility that we will find Madeleine and we hope that we will find her alive.
That means imo that there's an outside chance they will find her. In the event that they do, they hope she will be alive.
I wonder what the odds are that four people sitting in an office in London are going to find a child who went missing in Portugal 9 years ago. Four men who don't know what happened, don't know how she was removed from the apartment or who removed her.
I wonder where they got the idea that she could have been murdered then? Woof!
[/b]
Wherever they got it from - it doesn't involve the parents as they have been ruled out as suspects.
The possibility that Madeleine may not have left 5A alive was a consideration in relation to the predator who broke into several holiday apartments and assaulted many UK children whilst their parents were in another room.
As far as we know - no-one knows what happened to Madeleine after she was taken from 5A - and it goes without saying that she may well have been murdered as that is what happens to most children who are abducted by sexual predators.
However whilst there is no evidence that she has been murdered and we know that people trafficking exists - it cannot be claimed as a fact - and until there is evidence of her death her parents will always carry on hoping that she is still alive - just as Kerry Needham is still hoping Ben is alive.
The idea that ' Madeleine may have been murdered' is some new revelation that SY have recently come up with is preposterous IMO.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 10:17:04 AM
Wherever they got it from - it doesn't involve the parents as they have been ruled out as suspects.
The possibility that Madeleine may not have left 5A alive was a consideration in relation to the predator who broke into several holiday apartments and assaulted many UK children whilst their parents were in another room.
As far as we know - no-one knows what happened to Madeleine after she was taken from 5A - and it goes without saying that she may well have been murdered as that is what happens to most children who are abducted by sexual predators.
However whilst there is no evidence that she has been murdered and we know that people trafficking exists - it cannot be claimed as a fact - and until there is evidence of her death her parents will always carry on hoping that she is still alive - just as Kerry Needham is still hoping Ben is alive.
The idea that ' Madeleine may have been murdered' is some new revelation that SY have recently come up with is preposterous IMO.
Just to be clear there's no evidence that the parents have been 'ruled out'. That implies that they have been investigated by OG and there's no evidence that they have been.
Are you saying OG suggested the 'sexual predator' killed Madeleine in the apartment? Cite?
There is no mention of 'abduction' in the article, so perhaps it's time people stopped referring to it as if it's a fact.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Just to be clear there's no evidence that the parents have been 'ruled out'. That implies that they have been investigated by OG and there's no evidence that they have been.
Are you saying OG suggested the 'sexual predator' killed Madeleine in the apartment? Cite?
There is no mention of 'abduction' in the article, so perhaps it's time people stopped referring to it as if it's a fact.
There is evidence the parents have been ruled out...and the article talks of Maddie being taken..abduction isn't afact ....but it's the odds on favourite
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: G-Unit on April 19, 2016, 11:10:21 AM
There is evidence the parents have been ruled out...and the article talks of Maddie being taken..abduction isn't afact ....but it's the odds on favourite
Cite that the parents have been investigated please.
Taken can mean remove. Removal doesn't mean abduction.
Abduction is the odds on favourite in the opinion of some people, not in the opinion of others.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 11:55:57 AM
your post... Just to be clear there's no evidence that the parents have been 'ruled out
the fact that SY have said they are not suspects is evidence they have been ruled out...taken means taken....not removed by the parents
taken and removed are synonyms Davel for example The handler removed the tennis ball from his pocket The handler took the tennis ball from his pocket You can't claim that one means the tennis ball is alive and the other means the tennis ball is not
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 12:47:24 PM
taken and removed are synonyms Davel for example The handler removed the tennis ball from his pocket The handler took the tennis ball from his pocket You can't claim that one means the tennis ball is alive and the other means the tennis ball is not
a very weak argument...synonyms are not interchangeable and you are using your own interpretation...how about the perpetrator abducted Maddie...or the perpetrator took Maddie...making taken a synonym for abduction
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2016, 12:51:06 PM
a very weak argument...synonyms are not interchangeable and you are using your own interpretation...how about the perpetrator abducted Maddie...or the perpetrator took Maddie...making taken a synonym for abduction
Yet not a piece of evidence to show conclusively what happened.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2016, 01:44:36 PM
a very weak argument...synonyms are not interchangeable and you are using your own interpretation...how about the perpetrator abducted Maddie...or the perpetrator took Maddie...making taken a synonym for abduction
It is impossible to take something out of an apartment without removing it from the apartment. On the other hand is very possible to take something out of an apartment without abducting it. For example if you take an umbrella out of your apartment you are certainly not abducting it.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
It is impossible to take something out of an apartment without removing it from the apartment. On the other hand is very possible to take something out of an apartment without abducting it. For example if you take an umbrella out of your apartment you are certainly not abducting it.
When you take a missing child away you are the abductor whoever you are. The Smiths testimony is going to be crucial.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 19, 2016, 10:29:53 PM
A lone voice, perhaps, but I still don't understand what the outcome of the garden episode actually was.
Bits of a shrub were sent off... ok. No blood found and any fibres unlikely to have been of any relevance. Did I miss something?
But then I'm still confused about the differences between the video of the clothes inspection in the gym and what the PJ noted.
There hasn't been an outcome. Reference was made to a smell in the flowerbed by Grime. We have no idea if this was followed up, although we do know that certain exhibits from the garden were removed at some stage later & set away for testing. Pegasus could see Eddie digging in the flowerbed. Eddie dug at the Bob Rose burial site. Has anyone dug up the garden at 5a?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2016, 06:22:24 PM
There hasn't been an outcome. Reference was made to a smell in the flowerbed by Grime. We have no idea if this was followed up, although we do know that certain exhibits from the garden were removed at some stage later & set away for testing. Pegasus could see Eddie digging in the flowerbed. Eddie dug at the Bob Rose burial site. Has anyone dug up the garden at 5a?
Grime and Eddie seemed a bit bewildered that night.
I'm still curious as to whether there was a crawl space or not and whether anyone followed up on that possibility.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2016, 08:59:49 PM
Grime and Eddie seemed a bit bewildered that night.
I'm still curious as to whether there was a crawl space or not and whether anyone followed up on that possibility.
They look bewildered, this is very much a photographic effect of the lighting. However, Eddie possibly might be saying something like "I need to get closer" just IMO (and I'm no dog expert). And the handler seems uncertain exactly how to interpret the alert.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2016, 09:24:20 PM
There hasn't been an outcome. Reference was made to a smell in the flowerbed by Grime. We have no idea if this was followed up, although we do know that certain exhibits from the garden were removed at some stage later & set away for testing. Pegasus could see Eddie digging in the flowerbed. Eddie dug at the Bob Rose burial site. Has anyone dug up the garden at 5a?
I'm not sure it's digging, but at one stage he sort of tunnels his nose way down low into the thick plant cover in the flowerbed, could this be what "right at the root" refers to?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
I'm not sure it's digging, but at one stage he sort of tunnels his nose way down low into the thick plant cover in the flowerbed, could this be what "right at the root" refers to?
Probably fertiliser then, hence the weak alert. I thought they both looked hot & tired & Eddie was saying "can we go now please?".
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 21, 2016, 10:42:06 PM
There was no body there or Eddie would have found it. They went back to inspect and gather items. If a body was there for a very short time period then the scent would be a lot weaker being outdoors 3 months later.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 21, 2016, 10:48:22 PM
There was no body there or Eddie would have found it. They went back to inspect and gather items. If a body was there for a very short time period then the scent would be a lot weaker being outdoors 3 months later.
Would Eddie have found a body wrapped in a dozen bin liners & buried?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: Mr Gray on April 21, 2016, 10:52:43 PM
There was no body there or Eddie would have found it. They went back to inspect and gather items. If a body was there for a very short time period then the scent would be a lot weaker being outdoors 3 months later.
it would be non existent
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 21, 2016, 11:21:36 PM
Would Eddie have found a body wrapped in a dozen bin liners & buried?
He could locate remains under concrete,whether thats because of material permeability Im not sure The dog(s) used in the Tia Sharp case alerted to her body wrapped in a bin bag, so it might be possible,then again it depends I suppose if a body had lain there or not before being concealed allowing contamnation (if not possible).Then again, maybe its possible if there was a tear, all grisly and academic
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 12:20:53 AM
He could locate remains under concrete,whether thats because of material permeability Im not sure The dog(s) used in the Tia Sharp case alerted to her body wrapped in a bin bag, so it might be possible,then again it depends I suppose if a body had lain there or not before being concealed allowing contamnation (if not possible).Then again, maybe its possible if there was a tear, all grisly and academic
This is an interesting read - David Guilfoyle murder - start at page 60. http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf
Despite knowing where the victim was buried, it took a tremendous amount of effort to locate his remains in a shallow grave & there was no alert by the cadaver dogs.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: mercury on April 22, 2016, 12:28:57 AM
This is an interesting read - David Guilfoyle murder - start at page 60. http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf
Despite knowing where the victim was buried, it took a tremendous amount of effort to locate his remains in a shallow grave & there was no alert by the cadaver dogs.
Theres always a reason and each case is different Will have a read later or tomorrow, off to watch Afterlife ,thanks for link
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 12:32:59 AM
Thanks Misty.
If the victim is transported by the offender, 88% of bodies are deposited with 50 metres of the vehicle and the remainder within 150 metres.
He described digging a shallow grave no more than six inches deep and placing the body in it, wrapped in a plastic sheet.
More worryingly, in the years since the body had been buried the area had changed significantly with trees being felled and replaced and some of the area had changed from woodland to grouse shooting. We had clearly underestimated the difficulty that this would pose in trying to follow the directions Fitzpatrick had given and the indications he had made on the map.
Fitzpatrick was becoming agitated at his inability to locate the body but said he was sure that we were in the right area. It seemed clear to me that he was genuinely trying to assist but that the changes in the landscape were making the task very tricky.
Based on the previous searches and the areas indicated by Fitzpatrick during his visit, we identified a number of sites of potential interest and prioritised these for excavation by the mechanical digger. This proved successful and on the afternoon of Friday 9th November, a piece of blue plastic sheeting was uncovered. Further examination confirmed the presence of David’s body wrapped in a plastic sheet located in a shallow grave as described by Fitzpatrick.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 22, 2016, 12:46:54 AM
If the victim is transported by the offender, 88% of bodies are deposited with 50 metres of the vehicle and the remainder within 150 metres.
He described digging a shallow grave no more than six inches deep and placing the body in it, wrapped in a plastic sheet.
More worryingly, in the years since the body had been buried the area had changed significantly with trees being felled and replaced and some of the area had changed from woodland to grouse shooting. We had clearly underestimated the difficulty that this would pose in trying to follow the directions Fitzpatrick had given and the indications he had made on the map.
Fitzpatrick was becoming agitated at his inability to locate the body but said he was sure that we were in the right area. It seemed clear to me that he was genuinely trying to assist but that the changes in the landscape were making the task very tricky.
Based on the previous searches and the areas indicated by Fitzpatrick during his visit, we identified a number of sites of potential interest and prioritised these for excavation by the mechanical digger. This proved successful and on the afternoon of Friday 9th November, a piece of blue plastic sheeting was uncovered. Further examination confirmed the presence of David’s body wrapped in a plastic sheet located in a shallow grave as described by Fitzpatrick.
How do you equate 88% & the distance, as detailed in the statistics above, with the Smithman sighting?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 01:35:37 PM
How do you equate 88% & the distance, as detailed in the statistics above, with the Smithman sighting?
If death happened and she was discovered close to the crime scene then time of death could be established. Maybe the perps didn't want that to happen because time of death can lead you straight to them.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 22, 2016, 02:07:12 PM
If death happened and she was discovered close to the crime scene then time of death could be established. Maybe the perps didn't want that to happen because time of death can lead you straight to them.
If that was the case, then the perp would have locked the apartment doors & carried out no checks, maintaining a consistent alibi at the bar.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 22, 2016, 02:36:17 PM
This is an interesting read - David Guilfoyle murder - start at page 60. http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf
Despite knowing where the victim was buried, it took a tremendous amount of effort to locate his remains in a shallow grave & there was no alert by the cadaver dogs.
Very interesting reading. The grave was hand-dug (no spade!) and covered by only about 6 inches of soil. It was discovered about 7 and a half years later.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 22, 2016, 02:39:11 PM
If death happened it could have been established at a time before they left for the tapas bar.
Death must have occurred before they left for the Tapas Bar if you accept Eddie's alerts are directly attributable to Madeleine, thus ruling out a woke & wandered scenario. How do you therefore account for the DCS saying the police had a "much fuller understanding" of the circumstances surrounding Madeleine's disappearance AFTER interviewing POI in Portugal?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 22, 2016, 10:18:15 PM
This is an interesting read - David Guilfoyle murder - start at page 60. http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf
Despite knowing where the victim was buried, it took a tremendous amount of effort to locate his remains in a shallow grave & there was no alert by the cadaver dogs.
Ive read it now, police and dogs were obviously taken to the wrong place. What is the relevance to this case?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 22, 2016, 10:28:55 PM
(snip) How do you therefore account for the DCS saying the police had a "much fuller understanding" of the circumstances surrounding Madeleine's disappearance AFTER interviewing POI in Portugal?
Misty do you mean this which was said by MR ? "This work has enabled us to better understand events in Praia da Luz the night Madeleine McCann went missing ..."
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 22, 2016, 10:39:24 PM
Ive read it now, police and dogs were obviously taken to the wrong place. What is the relevance to this case?
Yes the perp's initial directions given from jail were inadequate. And his directions later when taken to the area were IMO inaccurate because in the 7+ years since the crime the terrain had changed from thick woodland to fairly open.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 22, 2016, 11:22:35 PM
Misty do you mean this which was said by MR ? "This work has enabled us to better understand events in Praia da Luz the night Madeleine McCann went missing ..."
Probably. I thought I'd read an updated version by MD a few days back but must be mistaken.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pegasus on April 22, 2016, 11:33:29 PM
Probably. I thought I'd read an updated version by MD a few days back but must be mistaken.
Quite possible you did Misty. This from the Sun recently quotes MD "The police chief admitted detectives did not have a 'full understanding' of what happened to Madeleine or why she was taken" maybe implies they think they have some understanding?
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 22, 2016, 11:49:11 PM
Quite possible you did Misty. This from the Sun recently quotes MD "The police chief admitted detectives did not have a 'full understanding' of what happened to Madeleine or why she was taken" maybe implies they think they have some understanding?
That was probably the one (my NewsNow links are playing up).
We roughly know the "when", SY refer to the "what" & the "why" but there is a deafening silence on the "who".
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 23, 2016, 01:25:48 AM
Death must have occurred before they left for the Tapas Bar if you accept Eddie's alerts are directly attributable to Madeleine, thus ruling out a woke & wandered scenario. How do you therefore account for the DCS saying the police had a "much fuller understanding" of the circumstances surrounding Madeleine's disappearance AFTER interviewing POI in Portugal?
That would lead to a new arguido. Somebody who was saved or had great fortune because Goncalo Amaral didn't see a statement given in May 2007.
Title: Re: Eddie's alert in the garden
Post by: misty on April 23, 2016, 02:34:42 AM