Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: John on April 26, 2013, 04:54:50 PM
Title: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on April 26, 2013, 04:54:50 PM
The known facts are as follows.
Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro (8) was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. At around 9.30 p.m. João Cipriano left the house, headed towards the store where he met Leandro Silva and MM, who were already there, and whom he told that Joana had not returned home. Leandro Silva and MM returned to the Cipriano home and when it was confirmed to them that Joana was in fact missing they went out to look for her.
Between 10.30 and 11.00pm the child's mother, Leonor Cipriano, joined her partner Leandro Silva and MM, to whom she reiterated that Joana was missing, and only at that point in time did she go to store and asked the owner (NN) if Joana had been there caliming that she had disappeared.
Leonor Cipriano didn't inform the police authorities about the missing child despite there being GNR officers on duty in Figueira as a popular fair called "Mussels Party" was taking place at the time. It was the shop owner (NN) who made the call at around 12.44am on the 13 September, when she heard that Leonor hadn't yet done so. It was as a result of this telephone call that Leonor ended up talking with GNR officers near the church in Figueira. She told the officers that she hadn't telephoned them because she had no credit on her mobile phone.
Later at around 2.00am, Leonor was seen to buy cakes in a pastry shop in the village.
The next morning Leonor went to the GNR Station, in Portimão, accompanied by partner João Cipriano, where they filed a complaint over the disappearance of Joana.
Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
Was the disappearance of two children unknown to each other, within a period of four years in a seven-mile radius, simply a huge coincidence?
Well the GNR knew about it at 12.45a.m. So why didn't they do anything about it?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Benice on June 13, 2013, 10:42:36 PM
I'm not ignoring it Redblossom, I simply don't know enough yet - about what happened between 8.00 pm and 12.45am when Joana's disappearance was reported to the police to make a comment at the moment.
But that doesn't alter the fact that the GNR apparently did nothing at all when it was reported to them.
This is Portugal not the UK - different culture, different attitudes - the very fact that in Portugal children have siestas and stay up late is one of them. I would need to find out much more before condemning anyone.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 10:52:03 PM
This is Portugal not the UK - different culture, different attitudes - the very fact that in Portugal children have siestas and stay up late is one of them. I would need to find out much more before condemning anyone.
Children have no "siesta" in Portugal. Pre-school and school start at 8:00. Holidays allow obviously a different routine.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: DCI on June 13, 2013, 10:58:25 PM
IIRC Anne I think the point was made in the McCann case that the Portuguese found it strange that the McCann children went to bed so early.
They found it early, especially for Madeleine, being on holidays. In Portugal children go to bed around 8:30, except for Friday and Saturday because there's no school the following day.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 11:20:50 PM
Yep this freedom of speech malarkey is a right b*gger at times, isn't it Eleanor !
There is never freedom to tell lies though
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 12:16:57 AM
Joana was reported missing in less than 5 hours after she set off to the shops
It was a special festival that day. I think Anne told us about it. No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.
Finally when she got really anxious she would have to visit all the places Joana might be. It was fiesta so it is quite possible that Leonor with kiddies, or Leandro, did not return home until quite late themselves. Men like to drink at festivals.
Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?
There could be all sorts of reasons why she was later than most of us would be in reporting the loss of her daughter. Joanas grandma was in the next village IIRC. She could have been there ... or dozens of other places, especially with fiesta.
All as I suspect you must know.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 14, 2013, 12:34:52 AM
A happy picture. All clean and nicely dressed. Toys in the cot
Hope that this photograph will not be removed
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 01:03:00 AM
I have altered the header and added several details explaining how it came about that the shopkeeper who served Joana was the one who ended up telephoning the police.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 01:07:49 AM
Where did you get that report from John? Whose report was it?
Would like to see the full report pls.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 01:17:23 AM
Another happy photo of a bonny child, Joana Cipriano, dressed in a cute and newish looking jump suit. Spotlessly clean child and spotlessly clean house.
Not expensive furniture ... but sound stuff and well looked after and cared for
Well looked after and cared for, like Joana appears to have been.
And like the neighbours said in the parallel thread, never any signs of maltreatment.
Btw, Why have we got a parallel thread John?
Haven't we had enough wumming already?
I hope this photograph nwill not be wiped and that the text will not be modified
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 14, 2013, 01:22:18 AM
It was a special festival that day. I think Anne told us about it. No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.
What ? I certainly didn't say such a thing ! I said yesderday, 13 of June, was St Anthony's day and a holiday because St Anthony de Padua was born in Lisbon.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 14, 2013, 01:27:54 AM
Joana was reported missing in less than 5 hours after she set off to the shops
It was a special festival that day. I think Anne told us about it. No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.
Finally when she got really anxious she would have to visit all the places Joana might be. It was fiesta so it is quite possible that Leonor with kiddies, or Leandro, did not return home until quite late themselves. Men like to drink at festivals.
Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?
There could be all sorts of reasons why she was later than most of us would be in reporting the loss of her daughter. Joanas grandma was in the next village IIRC. She could have been there ... or dozens of other places, especially with fiesta.
All as I suspect you must know.
oh sadie
Why are you pretending that there is nothing questionable about an eight year old little girl going to the shops at 8pm and not being reported as missing until quarter to one in the morning ?
Joining in the festivities ? ... an eight year old ? ... until one o'clock in the morning !
Please stop .... it's awful to see you do this
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2013, 01:31:04 AM
Joana was reported missing in less than 5 hours after she set off to the shops
It was a special festival that day. I think Anne told us about it. No doubt her mother would think that she had joined in the festivities, or was visiting a friend, or relative.
Finally when she got really anxious she would have to visit all the places Joana might be. It was fiesta so it is quite possible that Leonor with kiddies, or Leandro, did not return home until quite late themselves. Men like to drink at festivals.
Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?
There could be all sorts of reasons why she was later than most of us would be in reporting the loss of her daughter. Joanas grandma was in the next village IIRC. She could have been there ... or dozens of other places, especially with fiesta.
All as I suspect you must know.
This is how I am thinking Sadie. From the bits I have read so far Joana went out at around 8.00pm. The round trip to the shop was 840 metres, which is quite a long way, and taking into account that she spent time in the shop it could have been around 9.00 before her mother became anxious. As you say there are various possible reasons as to why she hadn't returned and there came a point where her brother, husband and his friend were out searching. She would wait to see whether they found her before contacting the police.
The call was made to the GNR at 0.45a.m, but in the meantime Leonor met up and spoke with GNR officers. I could be completely wrong of course, but reading between the lines I would say that they told her to go home and come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up, which apparently is what Leonor did.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 14, 2013, 01:40:38 AM
reading between the lines I would say that they told her to go home and come to the police station the next morning if Joana had not turned up, which apparently is what Leonor did.
What would you say if you were reading the lines instead ?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 01:43:34 AM
I am happy with your thoughts, Benice
sadie
Quote
Once home and the little ones were in bed, can you tell me how a woman with several kiddies can leave them to go searching?
@Icabod
Is it Ok Icabod, for a woman to completely leave her children and go 800+yards away ?
I thought that you were one of the strongest opponents of the Mccanns when they had the patio doors to the apartment in view and were within hailing distance, at only 50 metres away
Why was it Ok for Leonor to go 800 metres away .. yet not for the Mccanns to be only 50 metres away in what was effectively their back garden
Double standards seems
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 01:50:36 AM
What would you say if you were reading the lines instead ?
I'm assuming that as the GNR (as far as I know) did not go to Leonor's house when she spoke to them or take any action, then they must have told her to come back the next day if Joana had not been found.
As I have said, I'm not that 'au fait' about this case, apart from the torture aspect, but having skipped through the links Redblossom gave us the other day, this is what I think at the moment. That doesn't mean I won't change my mind when I've had a chance to spend more time reading about the case.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 14, 2013, 01:54:39 AM
Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro (8) was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. At around 9.30 p.m. João Cipriano left the house, headed towards the store where he met Leandro Silva and MM, who were already there, and whom he told that Joana had not returned home. Leandro Silva and MM returned to the Cipriano home and when it was confirmed to them that Joana was in fact missing they went out to look for her.
Between 10.30 and 11.00pm the child's mother, Leonor Cipriano, joined her partner Leandro Silva and MM, to whom she reiterated that Joana was missing, and only at that point in time did she go to store and asked the owner (NN) if Joana had been there caliming that she had disappeared.
Leonor Cipriano didn't inform the police authorities about the missing child despite there being GNR officers on duty in Figueira as a popular fair called "Mussels Party" was taking place at the time. It was the shop owner (NN) who made the call at around 12.44am on the 13 September, when she heard that Leonor hadn't yet done so. It was fas a result of this telephone call that Leonor ended up talking with GNR officers near the church in Figueira. She told the officers that she hadn't telephoned them because she had no credit on her mobile phone.
Later at around 2.00am, Leonor was seen to buy cakes in a pastry shop in the village.
The next morning Leonor went to the GNR Station, in Portimão, accompanied by partner João Cipriano, where they filed a complaint over the disappearance of Joana.
Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.
Was the disappearance of two children unknown to each other, within a period of four years in a seven-mile radius, simply a huge coincidence?
I've been searching the net looking for 'facts' on this case ( not very successfully ) and in one post you have clarified more than endless threads here have done ... how did you manage to uncover that information ?
Well done
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 01:57:16 AM
Just to be clear this thread is intended to be about Joana and not Leonor so lets keep to the facts which we know and leave the details of the prosecution's case to the other thread.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 01:59:24 AM
I've been searching the net looking for 'facts' on this case ( not very successfully ) and in one post you have clarified more than endless threads here have done ... how did you manage to uncover that information ?
Well done
Luckily I came across the Acórdão do Supremo Tribunal de Justiça and the translation in English which set out certain facts as agreed by all parties.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 02:09:17 AM
If I didn't know you better, I would think you were trying to blind me with science. To pull the wool over my eyes. Why produce a Spanish/portuguese /Brazilian document with no internet address? And in a foreign language.
This is a British forum, I am British and I am confronted with a huge document in a foreign language.
If you claim that to be the document you have used, to say what you did on this thread, then the least you can do is to provide the webpage address.
Edited to add Just for the record. An enormous document was posted at about 1.50 am this morning and maybe nobody saw it except me, as it was removed early today ... in answer to my request for the source of information, a document of about 50,000 words was posted. Not a single word of English in it, hence my indignation above. Every word was in a foreign language, I believe Portuguese.
The document was http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Thank you for posting the correct address now John, with an english speaking website
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 02:09:35 AM
I hope this photograph will not be wiped and that the text will not be modified
Why would we want to remove the photos Sadie?
As for modifying text, this will only occur if there is a very good reason for doing so. Examples being derogatory or abusive language, defamation or spelling errors. Contrary to the bleatings of some former members, text has never been modified in such a way as to purposely alter the meaning of any post.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 02:11:00 AM
If I didn't know you better, I would think you were trying to blind me with science. To pull the wool over my eyes. Why produce a Spanish/portuguese /Brazilian document with no internet address? And in a foreign language.
This is a British forum, I am British and I am confronted with a huge document in a foreign language.
If you claim that to be the document you have used, to say what you did on this thread, then the least you can do is to provide the webpage address.
Tbh, It doesn't even seem to be about the Cipriano case at all.
This is the original document, the names of those involved have been given coded references.
In Spain and in summer, because it's very hot, people, not only children, had traditionally a siesta. With air conditioning this has changed.
In the South there's still pretty much siesta time every day of the week actually, between 2 pm & 5 pm.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 14, 2013, 09:55:19 AM
And btw, since when is 1 am considered too late for children to be up during fiesta time in the South of Europe? Last time I went to one was in April this year, plenty of kids of all ages around at 2 am when I walked home.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2013, 12:01:57 PM
The context seems to be a sleepy village with a local, quite possibly noisy, fête on that night.
- Joana was sent on an errand to get milk and tuna at around 8pm. I haven't checked the time on any till receipt, if there was one.
- A neighbour saw her walking towards home and for some reason it seems to have been assumed that she did actually get back home.
- At around 9:30 pm, the brother went out and told Leandro and the other person that she was missing. No idea if this was considered immediately alarming or not. Apparently, they went home for confirmation, then went out searching for her.
- There were two other sleeping chlldren in their home.
- Leonor went to check with the shop herself later in the evening.
- The lady at the shop phoned the GNR, apparently because Leonor no longer had credit on her phone. Was Leonor's phone checked? If so, what did her phone reveal? If not, why not? When did her phone credit run out? Had she been phoning other people from home to check if anyone had seen her? Or was this never investigated?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 01:00:50 PM
The context seems to be a sleepy village with a local, quite possibly noisy, fête on that night.
- Joana was sent on an errand to get milk and tuna at around 8pm. I haven't checked the time on any till receipt, if there was one.
- A neighbour saw her walking towards home and for some reason it seems to have been assumed that she did actually get back home.
- At around 9:30 pm, the brother went out and told Leandro and the other person that she was missing. No idea if this was considered immediately alarming or not. Apparently, they went home for confirmation, then went out searching for her.
- There were two other sleeping chlldren in their home.
- Leonor went to check with the shop herself later in the evening.
- The lady at the shop phoned the GNR, apparently because Leonor no longer had credit on her phone. Was Leonor's phone checked? If so, what did her phone reveal? If not, why not? When did her phone credit run out? Had she been phoning other people from home to check if anyone had seen her? Or was this never investigated?
It does seem to be an odd excuse as she could have telephoned 112 free of charge. Did the other adults also have no credit on their phone? The GNR were in the village in any event so why not just go see them?i
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
It does seem to be an odd excuse as she could have telephoned 112 free of charge. Did the other adults also have no credit on their phone? The GNR were in the village in any event so why not just go see them?i
- Phoning 112 in 2004 in Portugal? Even today it's not a well-known number.
- Yes, she could have presumably got other people to phone the GNR. But don't forget that the context is a sleepy village with a fête.
Not everyone will immediately suspect that a chlld late home in a village with a fête in full swing had been abducted.
In the first few hours, it may have been checking whether she'd met up with other kids and was dancing around, been invited for a cola or whatever, as kids sometimes do.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2013, 01:45:49 PM
This is so unfair. Her family were out looking for the child. Why didn't one of them phone the police when they couldn't find her? Why does it always have to be the mother crawling around distraught, on her hands and knees? Or do you think Kate should have gone to The Ocean Club Reception to organize things? Not that The GNR would have done much, judging from their reaction to The McCanns.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 14, 2013, 02:24:01 PM
This is so unfair. Her family were out looking for the child. Why didn't one of them phone the police when they couldn't find her? Why does it always have to be the mother crawling around distraught, on her hands and knees? Or do you think Kate should have gone to The Ocean Club Reception to organize things? Not that The GNR would have done much, judging from their reaction to The McCanns.
In the first hour or so in the context of a normally sleepy village with a local fête going on, people may have assumed that she'd got distracted and was likely to turn up home at any time. She didn't.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2013, 02:35:02 PM
In the first hour or so in the context of a normally sleepy village with a local fête going on, people may have assumed that she'd got distracted and was likely to turn up home at any time. She didn't.
Of course they would have done. Thousands of children do turn up. And the advice is always to wait for a while. No one automatically assumes that the child has been abducted unless there is some immediate evidence to this effect. But why is it always the mother who is supposed to organize everything, and do the searching while still seeing to any other children? One might wonder what use men are.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2013, 02:40:23 PM
The brother does indeed seem to have a criminal record. And he was apparently staying at that home at the time.
That would seem to be a legitimate antenna-raising reason for the PJ to investigate.
But I'm less convinced about what happened to the child.
Joana's mother and uncle have been convicted of her murder
The uncle, who, when not living in Joana's home lived in cars, has previously been in prison for violent crime
The mother has six children by five different men, three of whom she subsequently abandoned
There is an attempt on this thread to 'normalise' their behaviour on the night Joana went missing, when, in truth, normal behaviours could not really be expected of this pair
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2013, 03:39:44 PM
It does seem to be an odd excuse as she could have telephoned 112 free of charge. Did the other adults also have no credit on their phone? The GNR were in the village in any event so why not just go see them?i
Following the phone call she did go and speak to them John.
Quote from the Case Ruling:
following said telephone call that the arguida ended up talking to GNR officers near the church in Figueira' unquote.
Which is why I am asking the question .....''What did the GNR do about it?''
The following morning she went to the police station and reported her daughter missing. That would imply that the GNR did nothing at all after Leonor spoke to them - so it would appear that not even the police were concerned at that time.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
Joana's mother and uncle have been convicted of her murder
The uncle, who, when not living in Joana's home lived in cars, has previously been in prison for violent crime
The mother has six children by five different men, three of whom she subsequently abandoned
There is an attempt on this thread to 'normalise' their behaviour on the night Joana went missing, when, in truth, normal behaviours could not really be expected of this pair
Do you think it was normal behaviour for the GNR to do nothing after Leonor met up with them and reported her daughter missing at around 1 o'clock in the morning?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 04:28:57 PM
Following the phone call she did go and speak to them John.
Quote from the Case Ruling:
following said telephone call that the arguida ended up talking to GNR officers near the church in Figueira' unquote.
Which is why I am asking the question .....''What did The GNR do about it?''
The following morning she went to the police station and reported her daughter missing. That would imply that the GNR did nothing at all after Leonor spoke to them - so it would appear that not even the police were concerned at that time.
I will have to do a bit more research on this when I get home but it could very well be a case of keep looking and if she doesn't turn up by the morning to come to the police station.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 04:44:53 PM
Do you think it was normal behaviour for the GNR to do nothing after Leonor met up with them and reported her daughter missing at around 1 o'clock in the morning?
Normal behaviour does not appear to sit too well with Leonor. What was normal to her was alien to most of us. We cannot therefore judge her actions by our own standards. What does appear to be without dispute however was her abysmal parenting skills. She abandoned most of her offspring to others to look after. It is little wonder therefore that the police were not in a great hurry to go looking for one of them.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2013, 04:55:20 PM
Normal behaviour does not appear to sit too well with Leonor. What was normal to her was alien to most of us. We cannot therefore judge her actions by our own standards. What does appear to be without dispute however was her abysmal parenting skills. She abandoned most of her offspring to others to look after. It is little wonder therefore that the police were not in a great hurry to go looking for one of them.
It's lucky that people in the UK hadn't given up hope of finding Shannon alive ...
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2013, 05:10:30 PM
Normal behaviour does not appear to sit too well with Leonor. What was normal to her was alien to most of us. We cannot therefore judge her actions by our own standards. What does appear to be without dispute however was her abysmal parenting skills. She abandoned most of her offspring to others to look after. It is little wonder therefore that the police were not in a great hurry to go looking for one of them.
I'm shocked that you would give bad parenting skills as a justification for the GNR to ignore a report of a missing 8 year old girl in the early hours of the morning.
I don't know the circumstances of what happened with her children. She was 18 when she first married, and it could be that she was abandoned by their fathers and couldn't cope. Who knows - but it does seem to be a habit to blame the mother for everything. No blame attached to Joana's father or uncle for not ringing the police earlier I notice, only the mother is condemned.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Dog The Bounty Hunter on June 14, 2013, 05:14:55 PM
What was it?? Six little dudes by five different men says it all in my book. @)(++(*
I'm shocked that you would give bad parenting skills as a justification for the GNR to ignore a report of a missing 8 year old girl in the early hours of the morning.
I don't know the circumstances of what happened with her children. She was 18 when she first married, and it could be that she was abandoned by their fathers and couldn't cope. Who knows - but it does seem to be a habit to blame the mother for everything. No blame attached to Joana's father or uncle for not ringing the police earlier I notice, only the mother is condemned.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2013, 05:25:14 PM
What was it?? Six little dudes by five different men says it all in my book. @)(++(*
I'm afraid I cant see the connection between that and having the capacity to murder your own child, cut the body up and feed it to the pigs. Do the two go together in your opinion?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 05:27:41 PM
What was it?? Six little dudes by five different men says it all in my book. @)(++(*
where did that information come from?
Is it real or is it a myth?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2013, 05:40:20 PM
There's some pretty blatant sexism going on here. Blame Leonor. Blame Kate. Whatever happened to the hunter, gatherer? The protector of women and children? Nothing to do with them?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 14, 2013, 05:54:26 PM
Normal behaviour does not appear to sit too well with Leonor. What was normal to her was alien to most of us. We cannot therefore judge her actions by our own standards. What does appear to be without dispute however was her abysmal parenting skills. She abandoned most of her offspring to others to look after. It is little wonder therefore that the police were not in a great hurry to go looking for one of them.
where do you get this negative information about Leonors parenting skills from, John?
From reports of neighbours and photographs her parenting skills look pretty good to me.
Joana looks a very happy little girl ... also clean and well nourished... with a simply furnished but nice home, also spotlessly clean
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2013, 06:03:21 PM
I will have to do a bit more research on this when I get home but it could very well be a case of keep looking and if she doesn't turn up by the morning to come to the police station.
What are you saying, John? That seems somewhat ambiguous to me in terms of what the public might expect as a police response to a missing child.
Whatever the (quite possibly informal) custodial arrangements over time, had she ever declared a child missing before?
When a child goes missing, do the socioeconomic/cultural/ethnic/gender/photogenic characteristics of the family play a role in how seriously the alert is taken by the police and in the media attention?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 14, 2013, 06:27:50 PM
I'm afraid I cant see the connection between that and having the capacity to murder your own child, cut the body up and feed it to the pigs. Do the two go together in your opinion?
I can't see it either. Karen Matthews had had several children by different fathers. In that case, whatever went through Karen's head doesn't seem to have taken into account Shannon's best interests (an understatement). Perhaps, one day, they will be able to talk about what happened.
The most important point is that the public hadn't given up on finding Shannon. And the police did check on a lead and found her.... alive.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 14, 2013, 06:39:57 PM
Another happy photo of a bonny child, Joana Cipriano, dressed in a cute and newish looking jump suit. Spotlessly clean child and spotlessly clean house.
Not expensive furniture ... but sound stuff and well looked after and cared for
Well looked after and cared for, like Joana appears to have been.
And like the neighbours said in the parallel thread, never any signs of maltreatment.
Btw, Why have we got a parallel thread John?
Haven't we had enough wumming already?
I hope this photograph nwill not be wiped and that the text will not be modified
Sadie, can I just say, That photo is not taken at Joana's home, but in a cafe.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 14, 2013, 08:45:30 PM
So, we have a mother who sends her 8 yr old out on her own after sunset to the shops a km round trip at 8pm.....does nothing before 10.30 -11 pm, alledgedly assumes (posted by some on here as normal) she must be playing with other kids or at relatives or taking part in the local notting hill festival, (but doesnt ring them to ask if she is there or go and see where she might be until ages later), does not call police (citing no credit on her phone utterly lamentable excuse that it is) or ask anyone else to call the police, it remained for a concerned member of the public to ring the police near 1am! On finding out they had not been rung!
Epitomy of a loving and concerned mother of an 8 yr old.
Was she on drugs? Or are some posters here on them
Other witnesses said she didnt seem bothered or upset!
Now, in *sleepy villages* where everyone knows everyone, people might have a sense of security, but do they let their 8 yr olds out alone and dont check what is going on for two hours plus? Do strangers never pass by *sleepy villages*?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 14, 2013, 08:50:52 PM
So, we have a mother who sends her 8 yr old out on her own after sunset to the shops a km round trip at 8pm.....does nothing before 10.30 -11 pm, alledgedly assumes (posted by some on here as normal) she must be playing with other kids or at relatives or taking part in the local notting hill festival, (but doesnt ring them to ask if she is there or go and see where she might be until ages later, does not call police (citing no credit on her phone utterly lamentable excuse that it is) or ask anyone else to call the police, it remained for a concerned member of the public to ring the police near 1am! On finding out they had not been rung!
Epitomy of a loving and concerned mother of an 8 yr old.
Was she on drugs?
Now, in *sleepy villages* where everyone knows everyone, people might have a sense of security, but do they let their 8 yr olds out alone and dont check what is going on for two hours plus? Do strangers never pass by *sleepy villages*?
Apparently Joana was much older than her 8 years which might well explain why they weren't really bothered about her disappearance. Several neighbours testified to this and explained that the little girl was more like a slave than a daughter. She was always running errands for her mother as she was on the evening she disappeared. It often happened that she had to go to the bakery for Leonor at 3am or 4am as her mother liked the warm cakes.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 14, 2013, 09:11:05 PM
Apparently Joana was much older than her 8 years which might well explain why they weren't really bothered about her disappearance. Several neighbours testified to this and explained that the little girl was more like a slave than a daughter. She was always running errands for her mother as she was on the evening she disappeared. It often happened that she had to go to the bakery for Leonor at 2am as her mother liked the warm cakes.
8 yr olds are 8 yr olds for snatchers whether they are slaves to their family or not or more advanced for their childhood age, or able to do more chores, or seht out in the bloody dark on their own and not thought about after the latest half hour they should beback, sickening that there are so many apologists for the mother on here
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 09:26:04 PM
What are you saying, John? That seems somewhat ambiguous to me in terms of what the public might expect as a police response to a missing child.
t Whatever the (quite possibly informal) custodial arrangements over time, had she ever declared a child missing before?
When a child goes missing, do the socioeconomic/cultural/ethnic/gender/photogenic characteristics of the family play a role in how seriously the alert is taken by the police and in the media attention?
Yes. My own experience of these communities is that the police tend to know what goes on to a greater extent than they do in the UK. The police are part of the fibre of the community and can be seen on the streets whereas in Blighty you would be lucky to ever see the same cop twice and even then only as he whizzes past in a Panda car. The police knew Leonor and the family by reputation so they probably assumed that the little girl had gone off to stay with a half brother or half sister.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 14, 2013, 09:38:02 PM
- Phoning 112 in 2004 in Portugal? Even today it's not a well-known number.
Before 112 became the european emergency number, the Portuguese national emergency number was 115. Up to 2007 you could either call 115 (everybody knew as everybody in the UK knows 999) or 112. Free of charge.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 14, 2013, 09:43:27 PM
Before 112 became the european emergency number, the Portuguese national emergency number was 115. Up to 2007 you could either call 115 (everybody knew as everybody in the UK knows 999) or 112. Free of charge.
that a citizen of any country doesnt know the their own police emergency number is a joke, whether it was 999 or 112 or anything else, carana is having a pretty pathetic laugh, oh dear oh dear @)(++(*
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 14, 2013, 09:56:21 PM
where do you get this negative information about Leonors parenting skills from, John?
From reports of neighbours and photographs her parenting skills look pretty good to me.
Joana looks a very happy little girl ... also clean and well nourished... with a simply furnished but nice home, also spotlessly clean
Unbelievable Sadie. The woman abandoned two of her children already leaving the father to pick up the pieces. By all accounts it was Joana who looked after her two younger brothers. To make matters worse she then has a incestuous relationship with her brother behind her common law husbands back.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 14, 2013, 10:13:30 PM
I can't see it either. Karen Matthews had had several children by different fathers. In that case, whatever went through Karen's head doesn't seem to have taken into account Shannon's best interests (an understatement). Perhaps, one day, they will be able to talk about what happened.
The most important point is that the public hadn't given up on finding Shannon. And the police did check on a lead and found her.... alive.
Why shouldn't the poor girl be alive ? This was a pure staging to get money wasn't it ? Didn't they ask for a little help from the McCann who managed to get so much ?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: DCI on June 14, 2013, 10:39:28 PM
Why shouldn't the poor girl be alive ? This was a pure staging to get money wasn't it ? Didn't they ask for a little help from the McCann who managed to get so much ?
It is obvious you know nothing of this case Anne, except what you are being told.
Shannon Matthews kidnap 'inspired by donations to Madeleine McCann fund' Matthews had seven children by five fathers. Four of the children lived with her.
It is obvious you know nothing of this case Anne, except what you are being told.
Shannon Matthews kidnap 'inspired by donations to Madeleine McCann fund' Matthews had seven children by five fathers. Four of the children lived with her.
I admit I know nothing but you're not making it clearer. I remember being amazed not by Mrs Matthews mimicking Mrs McCann with some CC but by everybody seeming to believe her. Of course I ignored then she had planned a faked abduction, but I was sure the mother was taking advantage of her daughter's disappearance.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2013, 11:32:37 PM
Unbelievable Sadie. The woman abandoned two of her children already leaving the father to pick up the pieces. By all accounts it was Joana who looked after her two younger brothers. To make matters worse she then has a incestuous relationship with her brother behind her common law husbands back.
[/b]
The Pj claimed they had this incestuous relationship - which they gave as the motive, but it was not beleived by the court who threw it out - thereby removing their whole motive. The court couldn't find any other motive, but still found them guilty anyway. How weird is that?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 14, 2013, 11:41:04 PM
The Pj claimed they had this incestuous relationship - which they gave as the motive, but it was not beleived by the court who threw it out - thereby removing their whole motive. The court couldn't find any other motive, but still found them guilty anyway. How weird is that?
Do you know why ?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: icabodcrane on June 15, 2013, 12:53:03 AM
Unbelievable Sadie. The woman abandoned two of her children already leaving the father to pick up the pieces. By all accounts it was Joana who looked after her two younger brothers. To make matters worse she then has a incestuous relationship with her brother behind her common law husbands back.
I read in an Algarve News article ( dated 2005 ) that Joana was always on 'errands' day and night, but your revelation that the little girl was frequently sent out out at 2 o'clock in the morning to fetch warm cakes for her mother dismayed me
The mother is clearly disfunctional, and the uncle, who was imprisoned for attempted murder, was described by his own lawyer as having well below average intelligence ... yet there are those here who insist that the unfortunate child was parented adequately
Unbelievable indeed
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 01:00:55 AM
Unbelievable Sadie. The woman abandoned two of her children already leaving the father to pick up the pieces. By all accounts it was Joana who looked after her two younger brothers. To make matters worse she then has a incestuous relationship with her brother behind her common law husbands back.
Would you please prove all that John, in English, with sources
And please do not produce a document, 50,000 words long, in a language that is not English as you did last night.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 01:09:22 AM
Sadie, can I just say, That photo is not taken at Joana's home, but in a cafe.
Thank you DC1. I have another photograph of the same place but from a different angle and I am surprised that it is not at home, cos there are no other tables in sight and it shows a lot of the room.
but I am happy to accept what you say.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: DCI on June 15, 2013, 02:05:20 AM
Would you please prove all that John, in English, with sources
And please do not produce a document, 50,000 words long, in a language that is not English as you did last night.
Also he really ought to know by now that all the incest garbage was thrown out by the appeal court. And does it never dawn on them that there were other people in the house when all this incest, murder and dismemberment was going on? I'd like to know how Amaral found out Joana was supposed to have walked in on them, in the act!
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 12:05:32 PM
DC1
Quote
I'd like to know how Amaral found out Joana was supposed to have walked in on them, in the act!
8@??)(
Also I would like to know how Amaral knew the method, step by step, of Joanas supposed dissection.
No body and no witnesses. No forensics either
So how did he know?
To remind peeps, supposed evidence, tortured out of people is NOT EVIDENCE.
When a tortured person can stand the pain no longer, he / she will say what he is told to say, to stop the pain.
The Official reports / documents that people keep promoting on here are a total farce.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 01:29:41 PM
Would you please prove all that John, in English, with sources
And please do not produce a document, 50,000 words long, in a language that is not English as you did last night.
It was the original court document Sadie which was the source you asked for in the first place. I also provided two references in English for you had you bothered to look.
The extent of the neglect afforded that little girl was widely reported during the trial, she was nothing more than a slave to her mother according to the neighbours who testified in court. I have yet to see any evidence which shows Leonor in anything but a bad light. What the PJ detectives did to her was inexcusable but that doesn't change what she herself was like as a person.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2013, 01:36:14 PM
It was the original court document Sadie which was the source you asked for in the first place. I also provided two references in English for you had you bothered to look.
The extent of the neglect afforded that little girl was widely reported during the trial, she was nothing more than a slave to her mother according to the neighbours who testified in court. I have yet to see any evidence which shows Leonor in anything but a bad light. What the PJ detectives did to her was inexcusable but that doesn't change what she herself was like as a person.
But it doesn't make her a murderer either.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Mrs. B on June 15, 2013, 01:44:22 PM
No, and if you have a quick look through the evidence presented, nothing else seems to either. There's very little in the way of actual, physical evidence but a lot of evidence geared towards her "character". That, in conjunction with proven torture, makes her conviction even more unsafe.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 01:45:16 PM
Also I would like to know how Amaral knew the method, step by step, of Joanas supposed dissection.
No body and no witnesses. No forensics either
So how did he know?
To remind peeps, supposed evidence, tortured out of people is NOT EVIDENCE.
When a tortured person can stand the pain no longer, he / she will say what he is told to say, to stop the pain.
The Official reports / documents that people keep promoting on here are a total farce.
Joa participated in a videotaped reconstruction which was showed in court, much to the defence's chagrin.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 01:49:01 PM
Please confine your posts to the subject of Joana as per the header. The trial for murder and the subsequent conviction is discussed on another thread. This thread is solely concerned with Joana prior to her disappearance regardless of whether she was sold, abducted or murdered.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 01:52:48 PM
Also he really ought to know by now that all the incest garbage was thrown out by the appeal court.
Do you have anything to back that statement up in respect of what an appeal court did or didn't do DCI?
So let's see, the appeal failed so she must be innocent? Is this some sort of Portuguese reverse logic? 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2013, 02:24:15 PM
Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected. Why were none of those produced in Court?
And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning. Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 15, 2013, 02:27:07 PM
Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected. Why were none of those produced in Court?
And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning. Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.
Fiesta time?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: DCI on June 15, 2013, 02:30:08 PM
Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected. Why were none of those produced in Court?
And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning. Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.
See wrong again. According to the PJ, it was Leonor, who was supposed to have gone for cakes at two o'clock in the morning. After reporting Joana missing. In the court document!
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 02:37:23 PM
See wrong again. According to the PJ, it was Leonor, who was supposed to have gone for cakes at two o'clock in the morning. After reporting Joana missing. In the court document!
You are correct of course, it was Leonor who went to buy her cakes at 2am the morning after Joan's disappeared but it was Joana who usually went for them with the time being reported at around 3 or 4am.
Still awaiting your proof that the appeal court kicked out the incestuous allegation claim?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
Some of the neighbours have said that Joana was not neglected. Why were none of those produced in Court?
And I would love to find a bakery that produces hot cakes at two o'clock in the morning. Around here where they really do bake on the premises, start work at 6 am.
Seems that the individuals who spoke in glowing terms of Cipriano's parenting skills were her friends who, you may think, would not want to admit they knew she treated her children badly because didn't they nothing about it.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2013, 03:03:20 PM
You are correct of course, it was Leonor who went to buy her cakes at 2am the morning after Joan's disappeared but it was Joana who usually went for them with the time being reported at around 3 or 4am.
Still awaiting your proof that the appeal court kicked out the incestuous allegation claim?
The Incest claim was kicked out at the original Trial, as seen in The Court Transcript. It almost certainly wasn't mention at The Appeal as it had been disposed of.
I wonder sometimes if anyone actually reads my posts.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 03:44:27 PM
If I didn't know you better, I would think you were trying to blind me with science. To pull the wool over my eyes. Why produce a Spanish/portuguese /Brazilian document with no internet address? And in a foreign language.
This is a British forum, I am British and I am confronted with a huge document in a foreign language.
If you claim that to be the document you have used, to say what you did on this thread, then the least you can do is to provide the webpage address.
Edited to add Just for the record. An enormous document was posted at about 1.50 am this morning and maybe nobody saw it except me, as it was removed early today ... in answer to my request for the source of information, a document of about 50,000 words was posted. Not a single word of English in it, hence my indignation above. Every word was in a foreign language, I believe Portuguese.
The document was http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Thank you for posting the correct address now John, with an english speaking website
Contrary to Sadie's mistaken assertion nothing has been removed. The original post only ever containers the link to the original Portuguese decree which was naturally in Portuguese. I also added two links to the translation of this document in English.
I look forward to you withdrawing those comments Sadie.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2013, 03:49:08 PM
@ John. I asked you a question a bit further up. You may well have missed it.
It was quite simply: what evidence is there that the child actually got back home that evening?
Her village may have been normally a sleepy one, but there was a fiesta going on. Noise, alcohol, a festive atmosphere and possibly people from elsewhere.
Little Mari Luz went off to get sweets in a similar situation and never returned.
Little Ylenia was sent back to get her shampoo from the local swimming pool. If someone hadn't noticed something suspicious, no one would have thought that her mother was innocent, either.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Carana on June 15, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
Contrary to Sadie's mistaken assertion nothing has been removed. The original post only ever contained the link to the original Portuguese decree which was naturally in Portuguese. I also added two links to the translation of this document in English.
All the posts remain in their original form.
I look forward to you withdrawing those comments Sadie.
@ Sadie,
The Portuguese link that John posted last night is the same supreme court one concerning that case that I had found.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
This is what was held to be proven by the Portuguese Court. "…the arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] manifests socially deviant behaviour at the level of norms, values and responsibilities…". The operative word being deviant.
e) a arguida BB manifesta comportamento socialmente desviante ao nível das normas, valores e responsabilidades,
The Incest claim was kicked out at the original Trial, as seen in The Court Transcript. It almost certainly wasn't mention at The Appeal as it had been disposed of.
I wonder sometimes if anyone actually reads my posts.
Funny how some read only what they want to see, isn't it?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 05:26:29 PM
The Incest claim was kicked out at the original Trial, as seen in The Court Transcript. It almost certainly wash's mention at The Appeal as it had been disposed of.
I take it you can back that statement up Eleanor?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Eleanor on June 15, 2013, 05:31:20 PM
It's in The Trial Transcript that can be found on Joana Morais Blog.
We are well past the trial stage now Eleanor.
The Court which reviewed the case held that it was unproven that she had incestuous sex on the livingroom floor on the evening that Joana disappeared. It did not hold that she had never had incestuous sex with her brother as claimed.
As I have posted above, the Court also held that she was of deviant character.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 05:46:38 PM
The Portuguese link that John posted last night is the same supreme court one concerning that case that I had found.
Carana. You didn't see the original, which was posted, very late. VERY late at night and nobody saw it. It was a Portuguese document with no English. 50,000 words long. I copied it.
Wondered at one time if it was a joke. To pull my leg. But I wasted time on it. Too much time trying to find out what it was about . Went to bed past 3am.
But when it had gone in the morning it took on another air.
But John is our leader. It is hia forum . He can do as he likes as he has proven before.
Having on the following morning seen the English part version, I realised what it was about ... an "Official Portuguese Document" carrying phoney made up details ... and from the PT Courts. No way was I going to waste time re reading it that with its phoney details..
Phoney because it makes claims as proof that cannot be proven. Made up claims with NO EVIDENCE whatso ever. Full stop.
Two of which are illustrated in my earlier post
Much of that document is pure waffle. Written to prop up an extremely unsafe case case. A case run by a man who later was proven as a liar in the Courts. AMARAL is his name, ably assisted by Cristavao
Both Amaral and Cristavao have made mega bucks by writing books about these cases, Joana and Madeleines.
Edited to correct spelling.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 05:54:03 PM
Cipriano was convicted of lying with regard to details of her torture. Amaral was convicted of perjury based on Cipriano's lies therefore it is Amaral's conviction that is unsafe, not Cipriano 's.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 05:56:00 PM
You are talking nonsense now Sadie. Icabodcrane and others saw what was posted and that was the link to the Supreme Court review. It is still there and has never been edited.
When you opened the link you saw it was in Portuguese and that is when you posted your comment. I then posted the two links for you to the translation. Again, it is all there for everyone to see.
Why you would suggest that I posted a document much later on is beyond me when the links had already been posted.
And please don't bring my own case into this issue.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: icabodcrane on June 15, 2013, 06:01:40 PM
You are talking nonsense now Sadie. Icabodcrane and others saw what was posted and that was the link to the Supreme Court review. It is still there and has never been edited.
When you opened the link you saw it was in Portuguese and that is when you posted your comment. I then posted the two links for you to the translation. Again, it is all there for everyone to see.
Why you would suggest that I posted a document much later on is beyond me when the links had already been posted.
Yes, I was active on the board when John posted the links and can confirm that he is entirely accurate in his description of how the thread progressed
( perhaps you were tired and misunderstood sadie ... it was very late )
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 06:02:14 PM
You are talking nonsense now Sadie. Icabodcrane and others saw what was posted and that was the link to the Supreme Court review. It is still there and has never been edited.
When you opened the link you saw it was in Portuguese and that is when you posted your comment. I then posted the two links for you to the translation. Again, it is all there for everyone to see.
Why you would suggest that I posted a document much later on is beyond me when the links had already been posted.
And please don't bring my own case into this issue.
Sadie never let's the truth get in the way of a good story John. I thought you'd have realised that by now.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 15, 2013, 06:03:43 PM
Sadie never let's the truth get in the way of a good story John. I thought you'd have realised that by now.
@)(++(* 8@??)(
I don't know what the problem is anyway. I have never claimed that Leonor was party to the murder of Joana. There is lots of evidence however that she was a rotten parent.
I must also point out (wrong thread I know) that the photos of Leonor's injuries were altered. I saw the original and the fake so just goes to show.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 15, 2013, 06:08:16 PM
No, Amaral was found guilty based on the fact that he repeated, five months after the event, that Cipriano sustained her injuries when falling down the stairs in the police station in Portimao. This was found to be a lie, as the courts established that torture had indeed taken place, though the court could not determine who was responsible for the torture.
Gonçalo Amaral was convicted for simple false statement, since the version of the alleged fall on the stairs of Leonor Cipriano wasn't proved. Thus, the court considered that Amaral had lied, in order to cover the actions of his unknown colleagues.
With reference to Cipriano's perjury case:
That court considered the aggressions proven even though the identity of the attackers was never established.
Both articles are listed here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 06:16:10 PM
I don't know what the problem is anyway. I have never claimed that Leonor was party to the murder of Joana. There is lots of evidence however that she was a rotten parent.
I must also point out (wrong thread I know) that the photos of Leonor's injuries were altered. I saw the original and the fake so just goes to show.
Thank you for verifying what was strongly suspected already John. So if Cipriano has lied about how she obtained her injuries and the photographs of those injuries have been faked where does that leave Amaral's conviction ?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 06:29:12 PM
Thank you for verifying what was strongly suspected already John. So if Cipriano has lied about how she obtained her injuries and the photographs of those injuries have been faked where does that leave Amaral's conviction ?
It leaves it in the realm of *politics*, a thoroughly shadowy place of many pathetic shenanigans
IMO
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 15, 2013, 06:30:33 PM
Amaral's conviction stays exactly where it is, he lied about the fall down the stairs, this was established by a court of law in Portugal, not once, but twice.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 06:39:30 PM
Amaral's conviction stays exactly where it is, he lied about the fall down the stairs, this was established by a court of law in Portugal, not once, but twice.
he signed off a report, he didnt say she fell down the stairs as he wasnt there @)(++(*
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 15, 2013, 06:46:49 PM
No, he repeated, IN COURT, the lie that Cipriano had fallen down the stairs in the police station. That was what he was charged with & convicted for. You cannot go to court & repeat hearsay btw. I thought most people knew that. If he'd used that excuse, he probably wouldn't have been charged nor convicted.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 06:47:58 PM
Amaral's conviction stays exactly where it is, he lied about the fall down the stairs, this was established by a court of law in Portugal, not once, but twice.
Amaral lied about Leonors fall down stairs and was convicted . This conviction was was verified twice in the Courts.
Amaral was proven a liar.
He signed off a report, written by him or ... at his bidding ... so did he lie about it's veracity in court?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 06:49:34 PM
No, he repeated, IN COURT, the lie that Cipriano had fallen down the stairs in the police station. That was what he was charged with & convicted for. You cannot go to court & repeat hearsay btw. I thought most people knew that. If he'd used that excuse, he probably wouldn't have been charged nor convicted.
Got a link for that? Anyhow what is the difference between signing off your officers reports and sayng what was said in them?
The only way he could have been lying is if he knew she DIDNT fall down the stairs, got any link to prove that he did?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 06:50:28 PM
I don't know what the problem is anyway. I have never claimed that Leonor was party to the murder of Joana. There is lots of evidence however that she was a rotten parent.
I must also point out (wrong thread I know) that the photos of Leonor's injuries were altered. I saw the original and the fake so just goes to show.
You did?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 06:52:32 PM
Amaral's conviction stays exactly where it is, he lied about the fall down the stairs, this was established by a court of law in Portugal, not once, but twice.
The second time was simply repeating the verdict of the first court. The only thing the second court established was that Cipriano lied.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 06:53:18 PM
Cite please for signing a report written by him or at his bidding, ta
no need. That is what his case was about
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 15, 2013, 06:54:09 PM
And again
Gonçalo Amaral was convicted for simple false statement, since the version of the alleged fall on the stairs of Leonor Cipriano wasn't proved. Thus, the court considered that Amaral had lied, in order to cover the actions of his unknown colleagues.
With reference to Cipriano's perjury case:
That court considered the aggressions proven even though the identity of the attackers was never established.
Both articles are listed here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html
Little bit early isn't it?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 06:54:36 PM
Gonçalo Amaral was convicted for simple false statement, since the version of the alleged fall on the stairs of Leonor Cipriano wasn't proved. Thus, the court considered that Amaral had lied, in order to cover the actions of his unknown colleagues.
With reference to Cipriano's perjury case:
That court considered the aggressions proven even though the identity of the attackers was never established.
Both articles are listed here:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id248.html
Little bit early isn't it?
Context is everything Mrs B. Below is the quote in context :
'The contradictory statements about the aggressions of which she was a target were made between 2008 and 2009, at the time of the trial1 of the inspectors who investigated the "Joana Case", which resulted in the condemnation of two of the five defendants in that process.
That court considered the aggressions proven even though the identity of the attackers was never established.'
The court that the inspectors were tried at considered the aggression proven ie not the court where Cipriano's perjury was established.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 07:04:38 PM
The appeal took place before Cipriano's perjury conviction.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Angelo222 on June 15, 2013, 07:05:33 PM
It's great to be back again and to see we are all in such good spirits at last. I think some members should have a look at the following video. You don't even need to understand Portuguese. @)(++(*
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 07:08:27 PM
It's great to be back again and to see we are all in such good spirits at last. I think some members should have a look at the following video. You don't even need to understand Portuguese. @)(++(*
It's great to be back again and to see we are all in such good spirits at last. I think some members should have a look at the following video. You don't even need to understand Portuguese. @)(++(*
I posted the same video yesterday and some rabid people said, oh its a video by xklmation, joana morais, which makes it unsound...only she only uploaded it she didnt MAKE IT @)(++(*J
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: icabodcrane on June 15, 2013, 07:24:13 PM
I posted the same video yesterday and some rabid people said, oh its a video by xklmation, joana morais, which makes it unsound...only she only uploaded it she didnt MAKE IT @)(++(*J
Yet we have had nothing but links to Xclamation's site today by the supporters. They are a rather fickle bunch.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 15, 2013, 07:27:10 PM
I do think Antonio Colaço knows what he is talking about regardless of what the later court saw fit to accept.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: faithlilly on June 15, 2013, 07:31:29 PM
It's great to be back again and to see we are all in such good spirits at last. I think some members should have a look at the following video. You don't even need to understand Portuguese. @)(++(*
So easy to do that Angelo. Get rid of bruises on the real image and produce flawless skin on the faked image
My hubby can do that in a flash. Think he uses Micrographax or something like that.
Another con trick Angelo. They have tricked you.
The Prison Governor saw them and testified to them The Doctor saw them and testified to them The photographer saw them and probably testified... cant be botherd to check that ... cos it is a con
The Courts saw them and accepted them
Twice
Wonder if they will take Amaral to Court again for falsifying evidence? ... and wasting Court time.
Maybe it wasn't him, but I wonder ... really I do
Only my thoughts, of course. Could be any of them.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 09:01:12 PM
Why was it only when she got marcos the mad one as her lawyer and why? The one who was recruited by the the mccanns to dig the dirt on mr amaral? He is quoted as saying target hit?
abuse
But nothing new
No poiint in reporting it . Nothing happens.
Perhaps i will. And maybe some other people should know if you keep on in this vein, Red
Leonoras mother put her into prostitution in its the. Court document, no wonder she left home sadie at 11 no libel just fact of a dysfunctional upbringing, she is unfortunately a damged individual and not the saint and perfect mother YOU wish her to be, after all, she abandoned most of her kids, silly
Oh btw carana, havent got time to hunt the right thread, bit joanoa was back home that night because her shoes that she was wearing were found there, catch up tomorrow, btw sadie you are right marcos is very guilty and more of abuse at best
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 09:05:11 PM
Leonoras mother put her into prostitution in its the. Court document, no wonder she left home sadie at 11 no libel just fact of a dysfunctional upbringing, she is unfortunately a damged individual and not the saint and perfect mother YOU wish her to be, after all, she abandoned most of her kids, silly
I was not aware of that Red; thet her mother put her into prostitution. Please can you supply a cite?
Sorry, I see thta it was in THAT Court Document. The one based upon NO EVIDENCE except the words Of Amaral, and he is a convicted perjurer.
NO EVIDENCE. The Court Documents are a nonsense
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Redblossom on June 15, 2013, 09:11:59 PM
Who do you think? The same guy who abused his authority as a lawyer to extract a confession from Joanas uncle.
It is very obvious that the photos were enhanced to make the injuries look much worse than they originally were.
And when were the photo's first taken, Angelo?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: sadie on June 15, 2013, 10:59:43 PM
The Court report depended upon TORTURED OUT EVIDENCE or on ?Amarals word.
Amarals word, or that of his associates, of whom he is the superior.
He was the head honcho in this case, so he carries the buck.
TORTURED OUT EVIDENCE is NOT EVIDENCE, so the case is unsafe.
Likewise the Official Court Documents which were saying things like the body was cut up in a precise manner and describing that exact manner in detail. Stuff that nobody witnessed and of which there was NO FORENSIC or other evidence.
So how did the Courts know this?
Please tell me.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Angelo222 on June 15, 2013, 11:37:10 PM
So easy to do that Angelo. Get rid of bruises on the real image and produce flawless skin on the faked image
My hubby can do that in a flash. Think he uses Micrographic or something like that.
Another con trick Angelo. They have tricked you.
The Prison Governor saw them and testified to them The Doctor saw them and testified to them The photographer saw them and probably testified... cant be botherd to check that ... cos it is a con
The Courts saw them and accepted them
Twice
Wonder if they will take Amaral to Court again for falsifying evidence? ... and wasting Court time.
Maybe it wasn't him, but I wonder ... really I do
Only my thoughts, of course. Could be any of them.
It is impossible to reverse edit photos which show injuries as in the Capriano fakes which indicates that you don't understand software capabilities and limitations. The advocado was holding an original photo of Leonor showing black eyes only which was the real extent of her bruising. Had he attempted to con the Court he would have been in contempt. No advocado is going to do this or to show the press the photos if there was a chance that he would be held in contempt of court. Leonora was found guilty, she has had her appeal refused. The supreme court has not been persuaded of her innocence in the murder of Joana so until that changes she is guilty.
Leonor had injuries certainly but they were not as shown by a defence lawyer who has himself faced censure and claims that he has mental health issues.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: Benice on June 16, 2013, 12:01:25 AM
So you are saying that DR Ana was telling lies are you Angello?
If the injuries were so slight, one wonders why the Govenor called in a doctor, and then one wonders why it was thought necessary to take photographs of such minor injuries? I think both were absolutely appalled at the state Leonor was in. Comments were also made that her condition worsened after a month or so because of the amount of blood which had collected behind her eyes due to the severity of the beatings. No doubt there will be doctor's reports on this - (other than the one which said that the injuries were not conducive with a fall downstairs) , which may not have been made public.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: sadie on June 16, 2013, 12:28:40 AM
If the injuries were so slight, one wonders why the Govenor called in a doctor, and then one wonders why it was thought necessary to take photographs of such minor injuries? I think both were absolutely appalled at the state Leonor was in. Comments were also made that her condition worsened after a month or so because of the amount of blood which had collected behind her eyes due to the severity of the beatings. No doubt there will be doctor's reports on this - (other than the one which said that the injuries were not conducive with a fall downstairs) , which may not have been made public.
so, am I right ? Are you saying that Dr Ana was telling lies and the Medical Doctor and the photographer?
Were the photographs produced with all those bruises added, just by the defense Lawyer?
Is that what you are saying, Angello?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: DCI on June 16, 2013, 01:19:10 AM
As you well know DCI the photos were ordered by the prison boss who was concerned for her own functionaries.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Well done Angelo, you have tonight proved you know nothing about any of this topic. Except what you are being fed.
1. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer, in 2007 2. He would not have had those photo's, till 2008.
After Joana disappeared in September 2004, Leonor was arrested by the PJ in Portimao on October 14 at 8am.
Held there and in the city of Faro without access to a lawyer, she was interrogated without sleep for 22 hours.
Then, after a two-hour respite, she was interrogated again until 7am on October 16.
By this time, as photos published by the Portuguese media make clear, her face was a mass of bruises.
According to Grade: "Not just her face but her whole body was black and blue."
The police said she "tried to commit suicide" by throwing herself down stairs.
If the alleged torture was to force a confession, it succeeded ? only for Leonor to withdraw it when she finally saw her lawyer the next day.
The supporters of the accused police have claimed that the officers must be innocent because Cipriano could not pick out her alleged attackers in an identity parade.
So your lie should be removed, from this thread 8()(((@#
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: sadie on June 16, 2013, 01:37:00 AM
Well done Angelo, you have tonight proved you know nothing about any of this topic. Except what you are being fed.
1. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer, in 2007 2. He would not have had those photo's, till 2008.
After Joana disappeared in September 2004, Leonor was arrested by the PJ in Portimao on October 14 at 8am.
Held there and in the city of Faro without access to a lawyer, she was interrogated without sleep for 22 hours.
Then, after a two-hour respite, she was interrogated again until 7am on October 16.
By this time, as photos published by the Portuguese media make clear, her face was a mass of bruises.
According to Grade: "Not just her face but her whole body was black and blue."
The police said she "tried to commit suicide" by throwing herself down stairs.
If the alleged torture was to force a confession, it succeeded ? only for Leonor to withdraw it when she finally saw her lawyer the next day.
The supporters of the accused police have claimed that the officers must be innocent because Cipriano could not pick out her alleged attackers in an identity parade.
So your lie should be removed, from this thread 8()(((@#
8@??)( 8@??)( 8((()*/
Spot on DC1. Exactly what i was thinking ... but you put it better than I could..
What i was trying to find out from Angello was when the photos that he says cannot be changed were supposed to be taken.
My hubby could change them dead easily. No probs. So why say that?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing sooner?
Post by: DCI on June 16, 2013, 01:38:31 AM
Police officer made arguido in the process of assaults against Leonor Cipriano, 04 May 2007 Police officer made arguido in the process of assaults against Leonor Cipriano Expresso
An official of the PJ of Portimão is the seventh police officer to be implicated in the process of alleged assaults on the mother of Joana. (http://expresso.sapo.pt/imv/0/47/213/ng1011060-cf6d.jpg)
Leonor Cipriano complained of having been beaten to punch, kick and with a cardboard tube
18:00 Friday, May 4, 2007
Gonçalo Amaral, coordinator of the Judicial Police in Portimao has been made an arguido in the process investigating the alleged assaults on Leonor Cipriano, which occurred in October 2004. The woman complained of having been beaten by punches, kicks and with a cardboard tube during "informal inquiries" that ocurred without the presence of a defense counsel and without the knowledge of the Public Prosecutor who investigated the disappearance of the child, the eight-year-old daughter of Leonor.
Goncalo Amaral was then coordinator of the PJ in Faro and this is why he has been made an arguido. Six inspectors of the Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism are also arguidos and have already been acknowledged. Four were not recognized by the complainant, who identified the other two but exonerated them of any assault. Leonor Cipriano was sentenced to 16 years in prison for the murder, co-authored with her brother, of Joana. The child's body was never found.
Well done Angelo, you have tonight proved you know nothing about any of this topic. Except what you are being fed.
1. Marcos was not Leonors lawyer, in 2007 2. He would not have had those photo's, till 2008.
After Joana disappeared in September 2004, Leonor was arrested by the PJ in Portimao on October 14 at 8am.
I never mentioned 2007. The Marcos to whom you refer has already been discredited for lying to Joana's uncle in order to get a statement which might be of some use in his appeal on behalf of Leanor. He failed abysmally and only succeeded in wrecking his own career.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: DCI on June 16, 2013, 03:06:08 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote from: icabodcrane on June 15, 2013, 07:24:13 PM So who faked the photos ?
I never mentioned 2007. The Marcos to whom you refer has already been discredited for lying to Joana's uncle in order to get a statement which might be of some use in his appeal on behalf of Leanor. He failed abysmally and only succeeded in wrecking his own career.
You said Marcos faked the photo's.
So the photo's were taken in 2004, and Grade told about the bruises, while he was her lawyer, how did Marcos fake them. Oh and for your information, his career is just fine. I suppose you think, he's in Brazil, too. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
You could try asking The Portuguese Bar Association.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 16, 2013, 03:48:05 AM
I must say, I find the lies and the misrepresentations in the Joana case to be utterly appalling and a very sad indictment of Portuguese judicial processes. What is clear however is that it is accepted by the courts at the highest level's that Leanor and John were tortured to obtain a confession.
Amaral has lost twice now and he was very lucky not to have received a custodial sentence the first time. He was convicted of altering documents to cover up for the officers who tortured Leanor but on the basis that he was not present when the abuse occurred. It must be said however that Leonor is adamant that he was there and provided the glass ashtrays upon which she was forced to kneel.
I think the Report by Marcos Aragão Correia is worth looking at in its entirety so I will post it when I can later today.
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: stephen25000 on June 16, 2013, 08:02:14 AM
I must say, I find the lies and the misrepresentations in the Joana case to be utterly appalling and a very sad indictment of Portuguese judicial processes. What is clear however is that it is accepted by the courts at the highest level's that Leanor and John were tortured to obtain a confession.
Amaral has lost twice now and he was very lucky not to have received a custodial sentence the first time. He was convicted of altering documents to cover up for the officers who tortured Leanor but on the basis that he was not present when the abuse occurred. It must be said however that Leonor is adamant that he was there and provided the glass ashtrays upon which she was forced to kneel.
I think the Report by Marcos Aragão Correia is worth looking at in its entirety so I will post it when I can later today.
Marcos Aragão Correia.
I have as much time for this man as I do Bennett.
i.e. None.
P.S. Hasn't he flown off to Brazil some time ago ?
Title: Re: The disappearance of Joana Cipriano and why was she not reported missing soo
Post by: John on June 16, 2013, 07:29:18 PM