UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Redblossom on May 19, 2013, 06:28:59 PM
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Does anyone know?
Title Amended for Muratfan who was wondering if by *all the others* it meant why did all the people in PDL lock their back doors except for the Mccanns
8((()*/
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Does anyone know?
No I don't, I'm afraid
But it always struck me as odd that the McCanns themselves were admant from the start that the apt. was unlocked (unsecured) - had they said 'Gosh, I really can't recall whether we locked all doors' - that would have rung true(r)/more plausible.
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What do you mean by back door RedBlossom?
oh fgs Martha, you me and everyone else knows what the back door refers to, the patio doors on the verandah at the back of the flat, ie not the front door end!!
Now, why do you think they left them open?
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What do you mean by back door RedBlossom?
oh fgs Martha, you me and everyone else knows what the back door refers to, the patio doors on the verandah at the back of the flat, ie not the front door end!!
Now, why do you think they left them open?
Charming response!
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Does anyone know?
No I don't, I'm afraid
But it always struck me as odd that the McCanns themselves were admant from the start that the apt. was unlocked (unsecured) - had they said 'Gosh, I really can't recall whether we locked all doors' - that would have rung true(r)/more plausible.
So they left them delibarately unlocked, why is what I wonder
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What do you mean by back door RedBlossom?
oh fgs Martha, you me and everyone else knows what the back door refers to, the patio doors on the verandah at the back of the flat, ie not the front door end!!
Now, why do you think they left them open?
Charming response!
Nothing uncharming about it, factual, everyne knows what the back door is six years later, to be asked which door I am asking about is facetious
So your view is ?
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What do you mean by back door RedBlossom?
oh fgs Martha, you me and everyone else knows what the back door refers to, the patio doors on the verandah at the back of the flat, ie not the front door end!!
Now, why do you think they left them open?
Crikey, no need to be so cross. I should think they left them open because they were the nearest for those checking to gain access to - did they lock from the outside or not? I hesitate to ask without having my head bitten off again. >@@(*&)
All the others were nearest for checking on too but they didnt leave them open
And no they dont lock from outside Martha, whats that to do with anythign btw, I certainly am not cross, just BEMUSED that you seem so ignorant about the facts
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Does anyone know?
No I don't, I'm afraid
But it always struck me as odd that the McCanns themselves were admant from the start that the apt. was unlocked (unsecured) - had they said 'Gosh, I really can't recall whether we locked all doors' - that would have rung true(r)/more plausible.
If the others took the long way round, it would presumably be because they'd locked the verandah door from the inside. No?
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Well if they don't lock and unlock from the outside it would mean walking further and therefore take longer to gain access to the apartment wouldn't it? So, if the flat was on fire they could get in a few seconds earlier. I hope you don't find this answer too bemusing or provocative.
So? That doesnt answer my op
Now your post is confusing rather than bemusing there is no question that the mccanns ever used a key to enter the flat via the patio doors, there wa no outside key access to them, sheesh, so, answer the query, why did the mccanns leave their flat open? Whilst others who were also checking every half hour didnt
Quite a deafening silence in general apart from the silly posts
i imagne this thread to go down like a lead balloon as its unhelpful nd no mccannite can stub this hole despite iw forum discussion being full of around 80 per cent mccannites, interesting
8((()*/
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All the others were nearest for checking on too but they didnt leave them open
Some people feel more secure than others, generally speaking.
I suggest to stop calling this a door when it is not. A door allows opening and closing,entry and exit, this one doesn't allow entry when closed. This a high sliding window.
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All the others were nearest for checking on too but they didnt leave them open
Some people feel more secure than others, generally speaking.
I suggest to stop calling this a door when it is not. A door allows opening and closing,entry and exit, this one doesn't allow entry when closed. This a high sliding window.
yea its like double glazing here, shut only and locked from inside, no lock or access from outside
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Well if they don't lock and unlock from the outside it would mean walking further and therefore take longer to gain access to the apartment wouldn't it? So, if the flat was on fire they could get in a few seconds earlier. I hope you don't find this answer too bemusing or provocative.
So? That doesnt answer my op
Now your post is confusing rather than bemusing there is no question that the mccanns ever used a key to enter the flat via the patio doors, there wa no outside key access to them, sheesh, so, answer the query, why did the mccanns leave their flat open? Whilst others who were also checking every half hour didnt
Quite a deafening silence in general apart from the silly posts
i imagne this thread to go down like a lead balloon as its unhelpful nd no mccannite can stub this hole despite iw forum discussion being full of around 80 per cent mccannites, interesting
8((()*/
I presume they all decided on their own individual arrangements - they weren't joined at the hip. It's easy to see why the McCanns left the patio door unlocked - because it meant they could check the children in less than a minute - rather than having to go the much longer way round. It's a 'human nature' thingy.
My postman jumps over the fence between me and my next door neighbour - rather than walk back down my path, along the road and up their path. Of course if he caught his foot on the fence climbing over it - he could possibly have a nasty accident - but obviously he doesn't think that is going to happen to him. (another human nature thingy)
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Sorry no, leaving the kids at risk to make it quicker for them to check? Are you serious?
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Sorry no, leaving the kids at risk to make it quicker for them to check? Are you serious?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing Redblossom. The McCanns did not think they were leaving their children at risk - that's the whole point.
Do you honestly think that the McCanns were the ONLY people on holiday that night to leave a door unlocked - either by accident or design? I very much doubt it.
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If the others took the long way round, it would presumably be because they'd locked the verandah door from the inside. No?
The mistake, imo, is considering there were two entries when in fact there was only one.
Of course if, instead of using the door, you prefer jumping over a window previously left slightly open for the effect, people will likely think that you forgot your key, not that you use your window as a short cut !
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Sorry no, leaving the kids at risk to make it quicker for them to check? Are you serious?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing Redblossom. The McCanns did not think they were leaving their children at risk - that's the whole point.
Do you honestly think that the McCanns were the ONLY people on holiday that night to leave a door unlocked - either by accident or design? I very much doubt it.
Why not stick to the OP and then feel free to give links to other parents on hols who left their kids alone and also left the doors unlocked, cheers
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There is a very strong and claimed for years thesis that all doors and windows were locked. Something dreadful happened and neglect was a second worse.
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There is a very strong and claimed for years thesis that all doors and windows were locked. Something dreadful happened and neglect was a second worse.
come again please - none of the above makes sense
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Some just don't believe that responsible and educated parents could have left their kids in a strange and unlocked place (consider that the 3 other couples did lock). Then why would they pretend the place wasn't all locked ?
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Some just don't believe that responsible and educated parents could have left their kids in a strange and unlocked place (consider that the 3 other couples did lock). Then why would they pretend the place wasn't all locked ?
Now that is closer to what I've been rabitting about
WHY on earth did the McCanns themselves exclaim the joint was unlocked?
WHY was that an issue for them to raise - when they could have simply said 'Oh maybe we forgot to lock it' - (holiday/couple of glasses of vino) END of
They made the unlocked apt. an issue - and I just wonder why
(I have a theory - but got myself chucked off various forums before for it - so in the interest of comfort - I'll wait to see whether someone else chimes in)
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Sorry no, leaving the kids at risk to make it quicker for them to check? Are you serious?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing Redblossom. The McCanns did not think they were leaving their children at risk - that's the whole point.
Do you honestly think that the McCanns were the ONLY people on holiday that night to leave a door unlocked - either by accident or design? I very much doubt it.
Why not stick to the OP and then feel free to give links to other parents on hols who left their kids alone and also left the doors unlocked, cheers
I've already answered the OP. If you want to believe that the McCanns were the only parents on the planet who left their holiday apartment/flat/caravan/hotel door unlocked either accidentally or on purpose when they went out then that's your prerogative. IMO the only difference between them all - is that the McCanns were the 'ONE' couple 'in a 'millions-to-ONE' chance - who ended up having their child abducted because of it. The same thing could have happened to any of the others - but it didn't. There for the grace of god...........
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Some just don't believe that responsible and educated parents could have left their kids in a strange and unlocked place (consider that the 3 other couples did lock). Then why would they pretend the place wasn't all locked ?
Now that is closer to what I've been rabitting about
WHY on earth did the McCanns themselves exclaim the joint was unlocked?
WHY was that an issue for them to raise - when they could have simply said 'Oh maybe we forgot to lock it' - (holiday/couple of glasses of vino) END of
They made the unlocked apt. an issue - and I just wonder why
(I have a theory - but got myself chucked off various forums before for it - so in the interest of comfort - I'll wait to see whether someone else chimes in)
Theories don't send innocents to jail. What is it ? May be you could open a thread. Those afraid wouldn't read...
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Sorry no, leaving the kids at risk to make it quicker for them to check? Are you serious?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing Redblossom. The McCanns did not think they were leaving their children at risk - that's the whole point.
Do you honestly think that the McCanns were the ONLY people on holiday that night to leave a door unlocked - either by accident or design? I very much doubt it.
Why not stick to the OP and then feel free to give links to other parents on hols who left their kids alone and also left the doors unlocked, cheers
I've already answered the OP. If you want to believe that the McCanns were the only parents on the planet who left their holiday apartment/flat/caravan/hotel door unlocked either accidentally or on purpose when they went out then that's your prerogative. IMO the only difference between them all - is that the McCanns were the 'ONE' couple 'in a 'millions-to-ONE' chance - who ended up having their child abducted because of it. The same thing could have happened to any of the others - but it didn't. There for the grace of god...........
No you didnt, its nothing to do with millions on the planet or god for that matter, the op question was very specific and
Again why didnt any of the other families leave their back door open for ease of checking?
And again how could ease of checking ever ever override safety, and lets not forget gerry said he never ONCE looked in on the kids, hello? So why go inside instead of listening from outside? A secure apartmenf
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Well if they don't lock and unlock from the outside it would mean walking further and therefore take longer to gain access to the apartment wouldn't it? So, if the flat was on fire they could get in a few seconds earlier. I hope you don't find this answer too bemusing or provocative.
So? That doesnt answer my op
Now your post is confusing rather than bemusing there is no question that the mccanns ever used a key to enter the flat via the patio doors, there wa no outside key access to them, sheesh, so, answer the query, why did the mccanns leave their flat open? Whilst others who were also checking every half hour didnt
Quite a deafening silence in general apart from the silly posts
i imagne this thread to go down like a lead balloon as its unhelpful nd no mccannite can stub this hole despite iw forum discussion being full of around 80 per cent mccannites, interesting
8((()*/
As I'm neither a McCann nor one of their friends how do you expect me to answer your question? I've offered a sensible, logical reason for the McCanns NOT locking the patio door, beyond that I can't help you, nor I suspect can anyone else.
there was no sensible or logical reason that i saw especially in the context of the op, sorry to disagree
Question remains why they left the door open and seeing as mrs mccann says according to her mates she left it open on thursdsy to go find her in case she woke up agaih like last wed night makes a mockery of her book input that a three yr old couldnt have opened curtains patio door and gate
Well apart from suggesting by kate that thats the ONLY night they left it open! LOL couldnt make it up
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
wow, one vile anti Anglican rant redblossom
would love to hear your views about Islam too
But you would not dare go anywhere near that subject - would you pet?
Hypocrite
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Red, imo
1) the alleyway was dark and rather creepy to go along at night, especially for women checking
2) The back of the flats was a dark quiet place to leave a door unlocked and as you correctly say the patio door had no locking from the outside.. It would have ben vulnerable to burglars.
3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
5) For the Mccanns the front door wasn't a "nice" route, especially for womeen. The doorway was deeply recessed, out of sight and it was in pitch blackness. I feel sure it was reported that the porch light was broken. Pls correct me if i am wrong
6) I have a feeling that Matt used the back patio door to his apartment the once, but I haven't checked the rogs so pls correct me if I am wrong. Certainly on the Mccann reconstruction he appears from the direction of the alleyway.
Hope this sorts it out for you. there are probably other reasons that i haven't yet picked up upon.
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
wow, one vile anti Anglican rant redblossom
would love to hear your views about Islam too
But you would not dare go anywhere near that subject - would you pet?
Hypocrite
Who or what is anglican? I dont know, you obviously do, I dont make any distinction between any priests or religions, when I slam them, your mistake, AGAIN, cheers, now do go find someone else to bully since youre bored, zzzz
8((()*/
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Red, imo
1) the alleyway was dark and rather creepy to go along at night, especially for women checking
2) The back of the flats was a dark quiet place to leave a door unlocked and as you correctly say the patio door had no locking from the outside.. It would have ben vulnerable to burglars.
3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
5) For the Mccanns the front door wasn't a "nice" route, especially for womeen. The doorway was deeply recessed, out of sight and it was in pitch blackness. I feel sure it was reported that the porch light was broken. Pls correct me if i am wrong
6) I have a feeling that Matt used the back patio door to his apartment the once, but I haven't checked the rogs so pls correct me if I am wrong. Certainly on the Mccann reconstruction he appears from the direction of the alleyway.
Hope this sorts it out for you. there are probably other reasons that i haven't yet picked up upon.
Sadie - you obviously have checked this thoroughly
And I see logic and reason within
What I don't understand is that all these complicated manœuvres could have been avoided - by just taking the children to the blooming tapas with them
It was their holiday too
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Red, imo
1) the alleyway was dark and rather creepy to go along at night, especially for women checking
2) The back of the flats was a dark quiet place to leave a door unlocked and as you correctly say the patio door had no locking from the outside.. It would have ben vulnerable to burglars.
3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
5) For the Mccanns the front door wasn't a "nice" route, especially for womeen. The doorway was deeply recessed, out of sight and it was in pitch blackness. I feel sure it was reported that the porch light was broken. Pls correct me if i am wrong
6) I have a feeling that Matt used the back patio door to his apartment the once, but I haven't checked the rogs so pls correct me if I am wrong. Certainly on the Mccann reconstruction he appears from the direction of the alleyway.
Hope this sorts it out for you. there are probably other reasons that i haven't yet picked up upon.
Bless you sadie, ps your point no 4 is false
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
wow, one vile anti Anglican rant redblossom
would love to hear your views about Islam too
But you would not dare go anywhere near that subject - would you pet?
Hypocrite
Who or what is anglican? I dont know, you obviously do, I dont make any distinction between any priests or religions, when I slam them, your mistake, AGAIN, cheers, now do go find someone else to bully since youre bored, zzzz
8((()*/
does zzzz indicate you need some rest?
yes probably right
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6) is false, but 4) is right (but not "by far") and 3) is the reason why 5A was considered more vulnerable.
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"when I slam them"
Very nice joke, Redblossom, thank you !
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"when I slam them"
Very nice joke, Redblossom, thank you !
noted
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"when I slam them"
Very nice joke, Redblossom, thank you !
religion and religious people need to be now and then depending on circumstances obviosly
They do take the pee just like anyone else and should be questioned about it
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"when I slam them"
Very nice joke, Redblossom, thank you !
religion and religious people need to be now and then depending on circumstances obviosly
They do take the pee just like anyone else and should be questioned about it
I thought you'd gone up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire
Redblossom
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
wow, one vile anti Anglican rant redblossom
would love to hear your views about Islam too
But you would not dare go anywhere near that subject - would you pet?
Hypocrite
Who or what is anglican? I dont know, you obviously do, I dont make any distinction between any priests or religions, when I slam them, your mistake, AGAIN, cheers, now do go find someone else to bully since youre bored, zzzz
8((()*/
does zzzz indicate you need some rest?
yes probably right
Zzz refers to YOU and religious nonsense, do try harder
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4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
It was quite a bit further Anne. Measures about 10 or 11 metres on GE. It was the width of two appartments further and it weas sooo dark by that deeply recessed front door. Gave me the creeps.
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"when I slam them"
Very nice joke, Redblossom, thank you !
religion and religious people need to be now and then depending on circumstances obviosly
They do take the pee just like anyone else and should be questioned about it
I thought you'd gone up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire
Redblossom
Enjoy stalking u wierdo
8((()*/
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
wow, one vile anti Anglican rant redblossom
would love to hear your views about Islam too
But you would not dare go anywhere near that subject - would you pet?
Hypocrite
Who or what is anglican? I dont know, you obviously do, I dont make any distinction between any priests or religions, when I slam them, your mistake, AGAIN, cheers, now do go find someone else to bully since youre bored, zzzz
8((()*/
does zzzz indicate you need some rest?
yes probably right
Zzz refers to YOU and religious nonsense, do try harder
God loves a trier 8(0(*
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3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
Anne 3) .... is the reason why 5A was considered more vulnerable.
I beg to differ.
5a was most vulneravble only cos it could easily be watched from afar and because its front door was so very deeply recessed and in complete darkness.
The back of 5A was far safer than the backs of any of the adjoining flats. It was well lit and raised. the backs of the other flats were in semi darkness and off a spooky alleyway.
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Madeleine could have opened the French window rather easily, but I don't think she would have gone down those dark tricky stairs.
Oh dont discount what kids will do if they want to get from a to b, my own 4 yr old navigated 200 plus stone steps to the beach whilst my back was turned one summer!
Father Seddon said Madeleine was adventurous. But she fell on the plane stairs.
That was an accident anyway whats with all these priests pontificating and commenting like they know anything, blah blah, unrequired useless people, then we have father bleeding hubbard, telling the world this that andthe other when he has no clue in any way shape or form about events which happened before he even stuck his pious pontificating guilt faced ridden foot in the country, nite nite
wow, one vile anti Anglican rant redblossom
would love to hear your views about Islam too
But you would not dare go anywhere near that subject - would you pet?
Hypocrite
Who or what is anglican? I dont know, you obviously do, I dont make any distinction between any priests or religions, when I slam them, your mistake, AGAIN, cheers, now do go find someone else to bully since youre bored, zzzz
8((()*/
does zzzz indicate you need some rest?
yes probably right
Zzz refers to YOU and religious nonsense, do try harder
God loves a trier 8(0(*
god does loves a trier but not a stalking wierdo who loses an argument
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3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
Anne 3) .... is the reason why 5A was considered more vulnerable.
I beg to differ.
5a was most vulneravble only cos it could easily be watched from afar and because its front door was so very deeply recessed and in complete darkness.
The back of 5A was far safer than the backs of any of the adjoining flats. It was well lit and raised. the backs of the other flats were in semi darkness and off a spooky alleyway.
Oh dear sadie, 5a well lit and open to people off the street, so was the safest? beggars belief nite nite
still not had a rational answer to the op
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3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
Anne 3) .... is the reason why 5A was considered more vulnerable.
I beg to differ.
5a was most vulneravble only cos it could easily be watched from afar and because its front door was so very deeply recessed and in complete darkness.
The back of 5A was far safer than the backs of any of the adjoining flats. It was well lit and raised. the backs of the other flats were in semi darkness and off a spooky alleyway.
5a is by far the most exposed apt. - right on the road
From what I've seen of the complex - 5a is the perfect place to rob/spirit someone away from
I would have not let my cat in 5a unsupervised/unlocked - and I'm not even that fond of my cat
Strange the doctors with all their nous and academic background did not realise that
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Well Registrar, they left the appartment believing the front to be secure.
They were in sight of the rear steps and patio doors which was only 50 metres away and well lit. They were within earshot.
Nobody expects someone to come in and steal their child. I certainly didn't in my back garden which had a side gate to the front, often left unlocked ... and an open back door on the side and out of sight.
You have to admit that it would be hard to find a more sleepy and outwardly safe place than PdL
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Well Registrar, they left the appartment believing the front to be secure.
They were in sight of the rear steps and patio doors which was only 50 metres away and well lit. They were within earshot.
Nobody expects someone to come in and steal their child. I certainly didn't in my back garden which had a side gate to the front, often left unlocked ... and an open back door on the side and out of sight.
You have to admit that it would be hard to find a more sleepy and outwardly safe place than PdL
I concede that Luz was the most quiet/sleep inducing town I have ever come across on many a travels
I maintain though that 5a's location (precisely for the amnesia of Luz) was a-waiting to be burgled
it's almost too perfect
and G&K as very bright professionals should have realised this - on day one
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Well Registrar, they left the appartment believing the front to be secure.
They were in sight of the rear steps and patio doors which was only 50 metres away and well lit. They were within earshot.
Nobody expects someone to come in and steal their child. I certainly didn't in my back garden which had a side gate to the front, often left unlocked ... and an open back door on the side and out of sight.
You have to admit that it would be hard to find a more sleepy and outwardly safe place than PdL
In her rogatory interview, Fiona Payne says that the McCanns had originally locked the apartment ( as everyone else was doing ) and it was some time later that they decided to leave the patio doors unlocked
She says she can't remember when they made that decision, exactly, but that she remembers having a conversation with Kate about it, and she thinks it was about 'half way through'
Given that they had only been eating at the tapas bar for four nights ( including the one that Madeleine disappeared ) then I guess that suggests the McCanns only started leaving the the apartment unlocked from Tuesday night onwards ( by Fiona Payne's reckoning )
Russell O'Brien, though, in his rogatory interview, says that he checked the McCann children earlier in the week, via the open patio doors, on the first night they ate at the tapas bar ( Sunday ) and that the Mccanns had been 'doing things differently from the word go'
It's all very confusing ... but the indisputable fact is that the McCann children were left vulnerable in that unsecured apartment ( whether the McCanns had the forsight to realise it or not ) ... the sad outcome is testimony to that
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4 nights excluding the disappearance one.
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4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
It was quite a bit further Anne. Measures about 10 or 11 metres on GE. It was the width of two appartments further and it weas sooo dark by that deeply recessed front door. Gave me the creeps.
Where have you seen the light wasn't working ? OC has employees to fix this rapidly. The corridor's lights were always on (at night).
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4 nights excluding the disappearance one.
Yes, you're right Anne ( sorry, I got that wrong )
So if the McCanns changed their checking methods 'half way through', as Fiona suggests, then they would have started leaving the patio doors unlocked on the Tuesday night ?
Why they left those doors unlocked at ALL is, in truth, of course, inexplicable
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vulnerable in that unsecured apartment ( whether the McCanns had the forsight to realise it or not ) ... the sad outcome is testimony to that
I'm not sure danger was bound to come from the outside. See the OB, they didn't lock in case of intrusion but to prevent exit. Madeleine was unfortunately able to get out of her bed, of her room, of her flat. I can't believe she had cried more than an hour staying in her bed.
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4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
It was quite a bit further Anne. Measures about 10 or 11 metres on GE. It was the width of two appartments further and it weas sooo dark by that deeply recessed front door. Gave me the creeps.
Where have you seen the light wasn't working ? OC has employees to fix this rapidly. The corridor's lights were always on (at night).
Anne, I dont know now, but it was common knowledge and not a myth, I think. I hope others will remember too, or better still find it in the files. I am too tired these days to go wading thru files.
When I was there, much of the East front of block 5 was in darkness. Very dreary and positively uninviting to walk to the front door of 5A
I think the light was properly broken, hanging down rather than just a bulb needing replacing.
ETA.
Anne I have done a quick search and I cant find anything about the light being broken. Therefore unless anyone else can come up with the relevant info, pls disregard it
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4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
It was quite a bit further Anne. Measures about 10 or 11 metres on GE. It was the width of two appartments further and it weas sooo dark by that deeply recessed front door. Gave me the creeps.
Where have you seen the light wasn't working ? OC has employees to fix this rapidly. The corridor's lights were always on (at night).
Anne, I dont know now, but it was common knowledge and not a myth, I think. I hope others will remember too, or better still find it in the files. I am too tired these days to go wading thru files.
When I was there, much of the East front of block 5 was in darkness. Very dreary and positively uninviting to walk to the front door of 5A
I think the light was properly broken, hanging down rather than just a bulb needing replacing.
sadie ... don't you ever wonder why Kate and Gerry felt 'so safe' in such a dark, dreary, and uninviting environment ? ... safe enough to leave their infants in an unlocked apartment ?
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I think the light was properly broken, hanging down rather than just a bulb needing replacing.
When I was there, the light was working. But the false pepper trees had been completely cut, sadness. Sometimes the wind in the leaves makes you shiver.
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4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
It was quite a bit further Anne. Measures about 10 or 11 metres on GE. It was the width of two appartments further and it weas sooo dark by that deeply recessed front door. Gave me the creeps.
Where have you seen the light wasn't working ? OC has employees to fix this rapidly. The corridor's lights were always on (at night).
Anne, I dont know now, but it was common knowledge and not a myth, I think. I hope others will remember too, or better still find it in the files. I am too tired these days to go wading thru files.
When I was there, much of the East front of block 5 was in darkness. Very dreary and positively uninviting to walk to the front door of 5A
I think the light was properly broken, hanging down rather than just a bulb needing replacing.
sadie ... don't you ever wonder why Kate and Gerry felt 'so safe' in such a dark, dreary, and uninviting environment ? ... safe enough to leave their infants in an unlocked apartment ?
Icabod, my comment was selective. It mentioned much of the east front of the building, after dark. Nothing else.
It was a very nice place for a 3* . The whole of PdL felt very safe.
Anne, pls note I have ammended my previous post.
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They were in sight of the rear steps and patio doors which was only 50 metres away and well lit. They were within earshot.
Nobody expects someone to come in and steal their child. I certainly didn't in my back garden which had a side gate to the front, often left unlocked ... and an open back door on the side and out of sight.
You have to admit that it would be hard to find a more sleepy and outwardly safe place than PdL
Which change, please Sadie ?
They weren't within earshot, this could be achieved giving the kids the south bedroom (two beds as well). It would also allow to see a light put on.
But I agree with you that in PDL nobody would expect a child to be stolen from bed.
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What do you mean "What change" Anne?
I agree: they weren't in sound range from the bedroom, but from the balcony, they were.
The decision as to bedrooms would have been taken before Kate and Gerry weere aware of the likely eating arrangements. Once unpacked and settled in, they wouldn't change rooms because, nobody, even in their wildest nighmare, could have thought that Madeleine would have been stolen.
Let's be realistic.
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(http://img1.imagilive.com/0212/View_of_Apartment_5A_from_Balcony__-_complete.jpg)
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4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
It was quite a bit further Anne. Measures about 10 or 11 metres on GE. It was the width of two appartments further and it weas sooo dark by that deeply recessed front door. Gave me the creeps.
Where have you seen the light wasn't working ? OC has employees to fix this rapidly. The corridor's lights were always on (at night).
Anne, I dont know now, but it was common knowledge and not a myth, I think. I hope others will remember too, or better still find it in the files. I am too tired these days to go wading thru files.
When I was there, much of the East front of block 5 was in darkness. Very dreary and positively uninviting to walk to the front door of 5A
I think the light was properly broken, hanging down rather than just a bulb needing replacing.
ETA.
Anne I have done a quick search and I cant find anything about the light being broken. Therefore unless anyone else can come up with the relevant info, pls disregard it
June Hughes:
The apartment was also vulnerable for the fact that the entryway light (side of the street) was hanging and did not function. This made the entryway very dark. It was off from the street with a small parking zone between the street and the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm
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Carana,
I think Sadie was meaning the lamp on the wall at the right of the door.
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June Hughes:
The apartment was also vulnerable for the fact that the entryway light (side of the street) was hanging and did not function. This made the entryway very dark. It was off from the street with a small parking zone between the street and the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JUNE-HUGHES.htm
Entry of the private parking then ?
What I'm sure of is that the trees (especially those) make impressive shadows.
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Thank you Carana, very kind of you ...but yes as Anne says, I was meaning the light immediately by the front door to 5A.
I especially like the photo of the new street lamps against the photo of the old street lamps. The one taken after dark. The balconies shown are the balconies to block 6 immediately across the road to the steps up to 5A. The place where I have thought that the watcher might have watched from.
These pictures graphically show the shadows at the back of the balcony. The shadows that i alluded to in my theory
(http://img1.imagilive.com/0212/View_of_Apartment_5A_from_Balcony__-_complete.jpg)
Wonderful illustration of what I was trying to explain. Thanks.
We are looking at block 6, which is immediately opposite, across the road to the side of 5A. The place where I thought that the watcher might have been
The balconies are in the middle of the large photograph, just to the left of the RH lamppost [We are viewing from North to South]
As demonstrated by the comparisons of light emitted, the lamps in the after dark photo are considerably brighter than those at the time of Madeleines abduction, so the balconies would have been much less lit then than in this photo
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Without reading RedBlossom's endless crap...
Is there anywhere where other people have said that they have locked their doors??
Also, as McCanns were there for the first time, maybe others knew what the area was always targeted by criminals and such.
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Without reading RedBlossom's endless crap...
Is there anywhere where other people have said that they have locked their doors??
Also, as McCanns were there for the first time, maybe others knew what the area was always targeted by criminals and such.
Not that I've seen, MF.
So the door being unlocked, gives someone the right to walk in and abduct a child?
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Without reading RedBlossom's endless crap...
Is there anywhere where other people have said that they have locked their doors??
Also, as McCanns were there for the first time, maybe others knew what the area was always targeted by criminals and such.
Not that I've seen, MF.
So I take it you have NOT read the Tapas 7 statements then where they state they all locked their back doors at night? That is what this thread was so obviously about, and NOT the general population
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You said EVERYBODY but the McCanns.... care to change that
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You said EVERYBODY but the McCanns.... care to change that
No
All the others is *obviously* the others in their group, not the population of PDL, the others,who we *know* locked them, if it were not obvious someone, until you appeared go make a silly criticism, would have bought it up, unless you didnt understand of course, if so my humblest apologies, you not happy with the thread title, ask admin to change it
ETA Bless your little cotton socks, changed just for you
8((()*/
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Red, you keep on about why did the Mccanns keep their one door unlocked when apparantly the others locked theirs
I gave several good reason s way back in post number 33
sadieRed, imo
1) the alleyway was dark and rather creepy to go along at night, especially for women checking
2) The back of the flats was a dark quiet place to leave a door unlocked and as you correctly say the patio door had no locking from the outside.. It would have ben vulnerable to burglars.
3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
5) For the Mccanns the front door wasn't a "nice" route, especially for womeen. The doorway was deeply recessed, out of sight and it was in pitch blackness. I feel sure it was reported that the porch light was broken. Pls correct me if i am wrong
6) I have a feeling that Matt used the back patio door to his apartment the once, but I haven't checked the rogs so pls correct me if I am wrong. Certainly on the Mccann reconstruction he appears from the direction of the alleyway.
Hope this sorts it out for you. there are probably other reasons that i haven't yet picked up upon.
Why are you ignoring them?
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In answer to the original thread question, Gerry gives an explanation in the their documentary ( which John hasposted on another thread )
He is speaking to Matthew Oldfield ( fast forward to 13.50 ) and says :
"Part the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn't want to disturb them"
What is odd about that statement is that Gerry says they 'ended up' coming through the back ( via patio doors ) implying that they had, at first, been using the front door
Yet Russell O'Brien, in his statement, says that he checked on the McCann children on Sunday night ( the very first time they had gone to eat at the tapas bar ) ... and that he had entered using the unlocked patio doors. He even noted that they ( the McCanns ) had been doing things differently to everyone else "right from the word go"
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In answer to the original thread question, Gerry gives an explanation in the their documentary ( which John hasposted on another thread )
He is speaking to Matthew Oldfield ( fast forward to 13.50 ) and says :
"Part the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn't want to disturb them"
What is odd about that statement is that Gerry says they 'ended up' coming through the back ( via patio doors ) implying that they had, at first, been using the front door
Yet Russell O'Brien, in his statement, says that he checked on the McCann children on Sunday night ( the very first time they had gone to eat at the tapas bar ) ... and that he had entered using the unlocked patio doors. He even noted that they ( the McCanns ) had been doing things differently to everyone else "right from the word go"
Maybe after using the front door several times - to come and go during Saturday and Sunday - and noticing the noise it made they decided that was another reason to use the back door- and so ended up doing just that.
I don't see anything odd in what GM said, but then I personally dont put every single word he uttered under a microscope or think that every single word the McCanns ever spoke should be taken literally at all times. People often don't use the 100% correct word or phrase when talking about something - so I wouldn't expect the McCanns to be any different.
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Nothing odd here and no noise.
As he understood, only Gerald and Kate used the system of entering through the sliding doors, as this was easier. Russel OB (2nd statement)
The kids were left on their own from Sunday on (on Saturday, parents and kids had dinner at the Millenium).
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In answer to the original thread question, Gerry gives an explanation in the their documentary ( which John hasposted on another thread )
He is speaking to Matthew Oldfield ( fast forward to 13.50 ) and says :
"Part the reason we ended up coming through the back was the noise coming through the front door. We didn't want to disturb them"
What is odd about that statement is that Gerry says they 'ended up' coming through the back ( via patio doors ) implying that they had, at first, been using the front door
Yet Russell O'Brien, in his statement, says that he checked on the McCann children on Sunday night ( the very first time they had gone to eat at the tapas bar ) ... and that he had entered using the unlocked patio doors. He even noted that they ( the McCanns ) had been doing things differently to everyone else "right from the word go"
Maybe after using the front door several times - to come and go during Saturday and Sunday - and noticing the noise it made they decided that was another reason to use the back door- and so ended up doing just that.
I don't see anything odd in what GM said, but then I personally dont put every single word he uttered under a microscope or think that every single word the McCanns ever spoke should be taken literally at all times. People often don't use the 100% correct word or phrase when talking about something - so I wouldn't expect the McCanns to be any different.
Fiona Payne says that the Mccanns had been using the front door at first but changed to using the unlocked patio doors at some stage. She can't remember when, but thinks it was about 'half way through' ( she remembers having a conversation about it )
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Red, you keep on about why did the Mccanns keep their one door unlocked when apparantly the others locked theirs
I gave several good reason s way back in post number 33
sadieRed, imo
1) the alleyway was dark and rather creepy to go along at night, especially for women checking
2) The back of the flats was a dark quiet place to leave a door unlocked and as you correctly say the patio door had no locking from the outside.. It would have ben vulnerable to burglars.
3) the Mccanns didn't have to go along any dark alleyways, and the rear entrance was well lit by the street lamp on the pavement opposite. Their rear entrance was basically on the street. Burglars would have to be crazy to consider going in that way when it was so well lit and overlooked by peeps in the tapas area.
4) It was by far the most convenient route for the Mccanns. Their walk to the front door was further than ony of the others.
5) For the Mccanns the front door wasn't a "nice" route, especially for womeen. The doorway was deeply recessed, out of sight and it was in pitch blackness. I feel sure it was reported that the porch light was broken. Pls correct me if i am wrong
6) I have a feeling that Matt used the back patio door to his apartment the once, but I haven't checked the rogs so pls correct me if I am wrong. Certainly on the Mccann reconstruction he appears from the direction of the alleyway.
Hope this sorts it out for you. there are probably other reasons that i haven't yet picked up upon.
Why are you ignoring them?
The McCann never left the back door opened. That allegation only appeared after the police published there was no forced entry in the front door. If you read G.McCann testimonies he said that he used the front door with the key, even when he was in a urge to go to the WC. Only later did it become convenient to imply that the back door was not locked.
You see, it's all this incongruousness that makes it imperatif for the McCann to come clean if they want a re-opening of the investigation (which we know they don't).
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Which WE ALL KNOW they don't (if the McCann wanted to keep the investigation running they could have asked so for 20 days after the publishing of the AG report) and since then at any time, as long as they provided just a shred of evidence that they would co-operate, just by saying so by e-mail or a registered letter.
But the OP is why did they leave the door opened. There is no proof they ever did leave it open but for their own testimony which arrived rather late, after all the other possibilities of entering the apartment by a stranger were proved impossible - no jemmied window and no forced front door.
Now, even if some (many) people accuse the McCann of bad parenting for leaving the children alone while going for dinner, how many of those people would believe they would leave a door to the apartment open. A door that leads directly to the main street by a small gate that doesn't lock? A gate that is not visible from the place where they were just like the balcony door also wasn't. Even if you believe they are highly negligent parents, can you believe they would leave their children in an unlocked apartment from where their kids could get out without anybody of the group noticing?!
Furthermore, Gerald McCann proved to be a scrooge when demanding a lowering on the price of the apartment because there was no listening service as he was lead to believe by his friend Payne, would such a person leave his belongings alongside his kids in an open apartment?! - Yes, I am speculating. But think about it.
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Oops. Repeated below
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No, that's another myth, as far as the AG's archiving report reads, nobody could request the re-opening of the investigation without providing NEW evidence to support their reasons for requesting it.
Nevertheless, anyone who feels unsatisfied about the epilogue of the investigations, will have the possibility to react against it, having the possibility of eventually changing that epilogue, by prompting diligences based on new evidence, as long as that person has the legitimacy to request them and the requested diligences are serious, pertinent and consequent. They may do so in three ways: by requesting the reopening of the inquiry, under article 279, number 1 of the Penal Process Code; by appealing hierarchically against this dispatch under number 2 of article 278, or in another case, under number 2 of article 279 of the Penal Process Code, or by requesting the opening of the instruction under article 287, number 1, item b, of the Penal Process Code.
Finally, it should be noted that an archiving decision may be a fair decision, although of the possible justice, and, especially, to underline heavily that the archiving of the present files does not equal a definite and irreversible closing of the process. This process, as long as the prescription deadline for the possibly committed crimes does reach its term, and if new evidence that justifies it, appears, can always be reopened, officiously or through the request of an assistant, again ordinate to a final decision of accusation or non accusation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Later repeated in another official statement in 2009
Following last week’s brief visit to Portugal by the father of missing toddler Madeleine McCann, the Portuguese Attorney General’s office has said that the case would only be reopened if “new facts” arose.
http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/view/994-14
As for leaving the door unlocked, if they felt it safe enough to leave the children, they would have felt it safe enough to leave their possessions. It's a common mistake tourists make, regardless of how many times they've been warned, they still do it.
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
spot on
Bell Pottinger were brought in by Mark Warner within 24 hrs of the disappearance
Nothing to do with the McCanns
Damage limitation writ large
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
Yes I agree with that. Especially as the tour operators were already aware of a spate of incidents in which an intruder had entered holiday apartments at night and molested children in their own beds. The tour operators had chosen to keep this information 'confidential' - (for obvious reasons).
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
Yes I agree with that. Especially as the tour operators were already aware of a spate of incidents in which an intruder had entered holiday apartments at night and molested children in their own beds. The tour operators had chosen to keep this information 'confidential' - (for obvious reasons).
What do you suggest they should have said to thousands upon thousands of tourists then when booking their holidays, every year?
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Why did THE TAPAS 7 ALL lock their back doors but the Mccanns left theirs op
the Mccans had an entrance gate and stairs to their ground floor balcony.
Did the other tapas group have that too?
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
Yes I agree with that. Especially as the tour operators were already aware of a spate of incidents in which an intruder had entered holiday apartments at night and molested children in their own beds. The tour operators had chosen to keep this information 'confidential' - (for obvious reasons).
What do you suggest they should have said to thousands upon thousands of tourists then when booking their holidays, every year?
THE TRUTH for a start and should have had a security guard patrol at the resort for another.
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Why did THE TAPAS 7 ALL lock their back doors but the Mccanns left theirs op
the Mccans had an entrance gate and stairs to their ground floor balcony.
Did the other tapas group have that too?
maybe red will answer this.
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
Yes I agree with that. Especially as the tour operators were already aware of a spate of incidents in which an intruder had entered holiday apartments at night and molested children in their own beds. The tour operators had chosen to keep this information 'confidential' - (for obvious reasons).
What do you suggest they should have said to thousands upon thousands of tourists then when booking their holidays, every year?
They could have installed CCTV for a start.
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Why did THE TAPAS 7 ALL lock their back doors but the Mccanns left theirs op
the Mccans had an entrance gate and stairs to their ground floor balcony.
Did the other tapas group have that too?
Zooming in close up on GE it appears that all the ground floor apartments had a gate. But in their case, they all opened on to a dark alleyway, whilst The Mccanns appartment opened on to a lit street, with a street light opposite illuminating the rear entrance. Quite a difference!
Certainly the women wouldn't want to walk along a quiet dark alleyway
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Why did THE TAPAS 7 ALL lock their back doors but the Mccanns left theirs op
the Mccans had an entrance gate and stairs to their ground floor balcony.
Did the other tapas group have that too?
Zooming in close up on GE it appears that all the ground floor apartments had a gate. But in their case, they all opened on to a dark alleyway, whilst The Mccanns appartment opened on to a lit street, with a street light opposite illuminating the rear entrance. Quite a difference!
Certainly the women wouldn't want to walk along a quiet dark alleyway
In Sadie's world - are all women afraid of the dark - as almost by default?
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Why did THE TAPAS 7 ALL lock their back doors but the Mccanns left theirs op
the Mccans had an entrance gate and stairs to their ground floor balcony.
Did the other tapas group have that too?
Zooming in close up on GE it appears that all the ground floor apartments had a gate. But in their case, they all opened on to a dark alleyway, whilst The Mccanns appartment opened on to a lit street, with a street light opposite illuminating the rear entrance. Quite a difference!
Certainly the women wouldn't want to walk along a quiet dark alleyway
In Sadie's world - are all women afraid of the dark - as almost by default?
Well I am ... in unfamiliar public places ... and even familiar places if there is a man around on his own, especially if they are walking behind me.. I always keep an eye on them and cross the street away from them. Even walk up drive ways to get away from them. I like them in front of me, where I can see them.
..... But I have experienced a man trying to pull me into a car, and I have experienced several flashers and a man try and grab me from my bicycle ... all when I was younger and a bit of a looker. Now I drive everywhere, but I still look around me before I get out. Maybe I am too cautious?
I am not alone; other women are like me. That I know
I would NEVER go down a dimly lit alleyway. Asking for trouble.
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Why did THE TAPAS 7 ALL lock their back doors but the Mccanns left theirs op
the Mccans had an entrance gate and stairs to their ground floor balcony.
Did the other tapas group have that too?
Zooming in close up on GE it appears that all the ground floor apartments had a gate. But in their case, they all opened on to a dark alleyway, whilst The Mccanns appartment opened on to a lit street, with a street light opposite illuminating the rear entrance. Quite a difference!
Certainly the women wouldn't want to walk along a quiet dark alleyway
In Sadie's world - are all women afraid of the dark - as almost by default?
Well I am ... in unfamiliar public places ... and even familiar places if there is a man around on his own, especially if they are walking behind me.. I always keep an eye on them and cross the street away from them. Even walk up drive ways to get away from them. I like them in front of me, where I can see them.
..... But I have experienced a man trying to pull me into a car, and I have experienced several flashers and a man try and grab me from my bicycle ... all when I was younger and a bit of a looker. Now I drive everywhere, but I still look around me before I get out. Maybe I am too cautious?
I am not alone; other women are like me. That I know
I would NEVER go down a dimly lit alleyway. Asking for trouble.
fair comment
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
Yes I agree with that. Especially as the tour operators were already aware of a spate of incidents in which an intruder had entered holiday apartments at night and molested children in their own beds. The tour operators had chosen to keep this information 'confidential' - (for obvious reasons).
What do you suggest they should have said to thousands upon thousands of tourists then when booking their holidays, every year?
THE TRUTH for a start and should have had a security guard patrol the resort for another.
It's called company policy, you are simply not allowed to. You can't sell a "family friendly" resort if you at the same time tell people that there are literally no security checks on who is allowed to just walk in & out of the resort at any time of the day.
Even the simple things you have to warn guests about has to be sugar coated in one way or another. E.g. instead of saying "don't drink the tap water because you may get ill" you are instructed to say "it's not dangerous to drink tap water here, but it doesn't taste very nice so we recommend you buy bottled water".
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I agree Mrs B, it is always their own commercial interests which come first with these Companies. However, there was much which Mark Warner holidays could have done behind the scenes to improve security. Even their own staff have commented in the police statements that too many strangers were wandering in every day to use the private facilities. The question must be asked, was John Hill far too complacent or was he simply not up to the job of resort manager?
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I think this a useful debate.
How much of your personal 'liberties' are you willing to give up on your holiday to improve safety?
Ex. 1) on a cruise of the Red Sea a few years ago - all passengers were photographed and then issued with their personal swipe card - no swipe card - no admission to the ship - reasonable I thought, judging by the characters hanging around quay side in various ports
Ex. 2) In a less volatile region the old wrist band method might suffice
But as John pointed out it's all about the dosh - if on holiday say in Spain - ANY hotel is happy for you to use their facilities - the trade off being that you simply buy a couple of drinks at THEIR bar rather than at anyone elses bar.
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Applied to the Ocean Club my comment above is of course redundant.
As 5a was outside the safety parameter of the complex.
Just like the apt. I staid in at Portimao.
Right on the road - anyone could have come in at anytime.
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I totally agree, but sadly, I don't actually think OC was any worse or better than any other resorts, IMO they're all equally bad. Another added complication is that most resorts aren't owned by the Tour Operators, they're owned by separate companies. So there's generally conflict between what the Tour Operator want & what the Resort Management are willing to give. Security is the Hotel Management's responsibility & Security Guards, CCTV, alarms etc cost money.
Of course, the OC in PDL had apartments that weren't even inside the resort which makes security even harder to maintain.
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I still believe John Hill and Mark Warner holidays were culpable. They were taking annual maintenance fees from owners like Ruth McCann who owned and who still owns apartment 5a where the McCanns stayed and from where Madeleine was taken. They knew that there was a history of intruders breaking in to apartments. They knew staff were concerned at the number of strangers wandering around the private grounds with some touting for business. Why did they not invoke the most basic security?
Why have the McCanns not sued them?
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It's time to clarify a few things here. Firstly the patio door (singular) was not lft open...it was closed but unlocked. Secondly, Matt used the door without a key thus evidencing that it was unlocked.
Somebody posted a few days ago that they felt that the McCanns had been lured into a false sense of security by their serene surroundings. I agree. They saw the tapas bar from their balcony and assumed that their balcony could be seen from the tapas bar. What they didn't realise was that you couldn't properly see through the plastic screen windows.
I also blame Mark Warner for not giving adequate advisements to guests in respect of security. I justify this by adding that there had been other break-ins at the resort prior to the Tapas-9 arrival and it was the responsibility of the hotel management to alert guests to theses goings on. I also blame Mark Warner for their obvious lapse in security. Where was the security guard?
My own view is that Mark Warner and Ocean Club let the McCanns down very badly.
Yes I agree with that. Especially as the tour operators were already aware of a spate of incidents in which an intruder had entered holiday apartments at night and molested children in their own beds. The tour operators had chosen to keep this information 'confidential' - (for obvious reasons).
What do you suggest they should have said to thousands upon thousands of tourists then when booking their holidays, every year?
They could have installed CCTV for a start.
That is a fair criticism
No holiday company could be expected to safeguard children from 'abduction' but Mark Warner were aware of the burglaries that had occured, and installing CCTV would have been a response that showed they were, at, least, concerned
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Very much so. There is also reference in statements to strangers taking photographs of children without their parents knowledge as they played in the grounds. Is anyone really going to tell me that the management at the resort were oblivious to this? Were they also oblivious to the fact that the area around the Club was a haven for British paedophiles?
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Very much so. There is also reference in statements to strangers taking photographs of children without their parents knowledge as they played in the grounds. Is anyone really going to tell me that the management at the resort were oblivious to this? Were they also oblivious to the fact that the area around the Club was a haven for British paedophiles?
"a haven for British paedophiles" ?
You go too far sometimes John ... you really do
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Very much so. There is also reference in statements to strangers taking photographs of children without their parents knowledge as they played in the grounds. Is anyone really going to tell me that the management at the resort were oblivious to this? Were they also oblivious to the fact that the area around the Club was a haven for British paedophiles?
"a haven for British paedophiles" ?
You go too far sometimes John ... you really do
Not my words but the words of a bar owner from Praia da Luz who knew exactly what was going on.
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how many of the Tapas 7 had stairs to their balcony?
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how many of the Tapas 7 had stairs to their balcony?
I think, Heri's photo's, show at least one gate, up the alley way, in front of 5A.
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From GEarth it appears that all the ground floor apartments have gates on to the alleyway.