Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on May 22, 2013, 03:53:00 PM
Title: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 03:53:00 PM
The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
This video contains footage recorded inside the Vista Mar Villa, Rua das Flores, in which the McCanns lived from 02 July - 09 September 2007. This video was recorded on 02 August 2007.
Before making any comment about this event lets have another look at the actual video.
Video: > Eddie in McCann's rented villa. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 04:15:54 PM
Lets have a look at the sequence of events...
First of all from 00.55 we have Eddie being introduced to the bedside wardrobe.
He shows no interest in it whatsoever.
(http://i.imgur.com/YfMGwaH.jpg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 05:06:03 PM
Next sequence from 01.20 sees Eddie taking an interest in some toys which have been laid out for him on a table in the lounge area of the villa.
Again he shows no interest in any of them.
(http://i.imgur.com/PGxXGcY.jpg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
Next sequence from 01.40 has Eddie running around the apartment lounge sniffing before he comes across the toy bucket containing Cuddle Cat.
(http://i.imgur.com/LvDKK3U.jpg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 05:23:47 PM
At sequence from 01.47 Eddie pulls Cuddle Cat out of the bucket...
(http://i.imgur.com/R2thTCm.jpg)
...and drops him unceremoniously on the floor...
(http://i.imgur.com/Y8v5tlq.jpg)
...before having a good sniff at Cuddle cat
(http://i.imgur.com/4hQsywN.jpg)
...and then leaving without the slightest response whatsoever yet again.
Following this failure to mark Cuddle Cat, Martin Grime attempts to encourage him back around again but he is not interested.
This is where the video is conveniently cut before recommencing at the next sequence.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 05:59:55 PM
The next sequence from 02.17 finds us back in the bedroom again and with attention yet again being drawn towards the bedside wardrobe. Grime opens the door of the wardrobe to let Eddie in and some 20 seconds later out he comes without making any response. Grime puts a pink towel back in which Eddie had displaced.
(http://i.imgur.com/YUGk5KU.jpg)
From 03.50 Eddie then goes into the lounge area again and starts barking in front of a sideboard after sniffing what was on top of it.
(http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg)
Grime then summons the dog back into the bedroom again and the bedside wardrobe. Again, Eddie shows no interest and leaves before being called back yet again.
Again the dog wanders off and is called back for what must be the umpteenth time. Again no response.
From 05.30 Grime then takes the dog back to the lounge and sits him down. He goes to the sideboard at which the dog had earlier reacted by barking and opens it to find Cuddle Cat on the lower shelf.
(http://i.imgur.com/NQFrebk.jpg)
Grime hold Cuddle cat up for the camera as if it was some sort of trophy.
(http://i.imgur.com/2iIH1dK.jpg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 06:22:36 PM
Point being in all of this is that Eddie was quite content to play with Cuddle Cat and never once identified him as a cadaver mark.
This event is referred to in the second Report made by a team of independent analysts from the Central Department of Criminal Investigation (Central Division of Information Analysis - PJ), dated from February 2008.
Snip
From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.
If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Why didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.
...or to put it another way...a complete balls up!! @)(++(*
Yes, even in what we see, Eddie had ample opportunity to react to the toy. Before it was edited, the video made clear he had even more.
Yet (as with the Renault) it was only after repeated coaxing and ample opportunity that he finally "alerted" ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: James on May 22, 2013, 06:34:40 PM
If I was a sceptic i would be saying that Cuddle cat was planted and had nothig whatsoever to do with eddie alerting at the cupboard. ?{)(**
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 22, 2013, 06:52:12 PM
Sometimes I wish that the McCanns had been charged so that we could have seen all the evidence totally demolished in court (if ever allowed to be admitted as evidence!)
No reliable dog alerts
No reliable DNA results.
Just happenstance, hearsay and police mismanagement.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 06:56:04 PM
Sometimes I wish that the McCanns had been charged so that we could have seen all the evidence totally demolished in court (if ever allowed to be admitted as evidence!)
No reliable dog alerts
No reliable DNA results.
Just happenstance, hearsay and police mismanagement.
Now that will have been interesting indeed
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 06:57:42 PM
Sometimes I wish that the McCanns had been charged so that we could have seen all the evidence totally demolished in court (if ever allowed to be admitted as evidence!)
No reliable dog alerts
No reliable DNA results.
Just happenstance, hearsay and police mismanagement.
Now that will have been interesting indeed
I suspect you would have lost interest very quickly ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2013, 07:07:38 PM
I can't do an accurate frame-by-frame freeze. If anyone else can, once Eddie knocks over the bin the CC on it, and loses interest, the camera's view seems to be blocked by the armchair, then CC appears in the middle of the living-room floor.
Out of curiosity, was this continuous filming, or was there a cut between CC being knocked over and then reappearing in the middle of the floor?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 07:16:08 PM
Is he next installment the truth about Eddies false alert in the parents bedroom? cant wait.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 07:23:30 PM
I can't do an accurate frame-by-frame freeze. If anyone else can, once Eddie knocks over the bin the CC on it, and loses interest, the camera's view seems to be blocked by the armchair, then CC appears in the middle of the living-room floor.
Out of curiosity, was this continuous filming, or was there a cut between CC being knocked over and then reappearing in the middle of the floor?
No, it is continuous, Eddie dragged it to the middle of the floor after dislodging it from the container.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2013, 07:31:11 PM
I can't do an accurate frame-by-frame freeze. If anyone else can, once Eddie knocks over the bin the CC on it, and loses interest, the camera's view seems to be blocked by the armchair, then CC appears in the middle of the living-room floor.
Out of curiosity, was this continuous filming, or was there a cut between CC being knocked over and then reappearing in the middle of the floor?
No, it is continuous, Eddie dragged it to the middle of the floor after dislodging it from the container.
I wondered because the armchair seems to obscure what exactly happened. If it's continuous, then it must have been the dog.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 07:34:48 PM
The next sequence from 02.17 finds us back in the bedroom again and with attention yet again being drawn towards the bedside wardrobe. Grime opens the door of the wardrobe to let Eddie in and some 20 seconds later out he comes without making any response. Grime puts a pink towel back in which Eddie had displaced.
(http://i.imgur.com/YUGk5KU.jpg)
From 03.50 Eddie then goes into the lounge area again and starts barking in front of a sideboard after sniffing what was on top of it.
(http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg)
Grime then summons the dog back into the bedroom again and the bedside wardrobe. Again, Eddie shows no interest and leaves before being called back yet again.
Again the dog wanders off and is called back for what must be the umpteenth time. Again no response.
From 05.30 Grime then takes the dog back to the lounge and sits him down. He goes to the sideboard at which the dog had earlier reacted by barking and opens it to find Cuddle Cat on the lower shelf.
(http://i.imgur.com/NQFrebk.jpg)
Grime hold Cuddle cat up for the camera as if it was some sort of trophy.
(http://i.imgur.com/2iIH1dK.jpg)
But even in the dining area sequence, it's not at all clear to me that he reacted to CC. He barked after sniffing something on the top of the buffet and woofed in the far corner.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
Is he next installment the truth about Eddies false alert in the parents bedroom? cant wait.
This toy was found near the blanket and the blanket didn't smell death.
I didnt realise the blanket was sniffed
The blanket was sniffed by Numi and then disappeared.
Sorry youve lost me Anne, Numi wasnt a cadaver dog..
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 07:45:16 PM
I never understood this sequence but chose to believe Mr Grime, the expert. Either this, since we're laymen, or imagine ridiculous conspiracies where Mr Harrison cheats the PJ etc.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 07:47:19 PM
I never understood this sequence but chose to believe Mr Grime, the expert. Either this, since we're laymen, or imagine ridiculous conspiracies where Mr Harrison cheats the PJ etc.
I'm not into conspiracy theories either, Anne.
But there is nothing in that sequence that seems to indicate that the dog actually reacted to CC. The PJ analysis people couldn't work it out either.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2013, 07:55:27 PM
I never understood this sequence but chose to believe Mr Grime, the expert. Either this, since we're laymen, or imagine ridiculous conspiracies where Mr Harrison cheats the PJ etc.
I'm not into conspiracy theories either, Anne.
But there is nothing in that sequence that seems to indicate that the dog actually reacted to CC. The PJ analysis people couldn't work it out either.
I agree, Carana, I'm curious about Mr Grime's answer to this. It seems there was no blood on the toy. All I can imagine is that the toy was contaminated after the disappearance since the blanket had no scent of death : the pants ? which can really have been contaminated in the hospital) and that the eventual molecules are easier to pick up in a closed space.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on May 22, 2013, 07:59:57 PM
I never understood this sequence but chose to believe Mr Grime, the expert. Either this, since we're laymen, or imagine ridiculous conspiracies where Mr Harrison cheats the PJ etc.
I'm not into conspiracy theories either, Anne.
But there is nothing in that sequence that seems to indicate that the dog actually reacted to CC. The PJ analysis people couldn't work it out either.
I agree, Carana, I'm curious about Mr Grime's answer to this. It seems the toy has no blood on it. All I can imagine is that the toy was contaminated after the disappearance since the blanket had no scent of death : the pants ? which can really have been contaminated in the hospital) and that the eventual molecules are easier to pick up in a closed space.
Contaminated? Eddie doesn't seem to have reacted to it.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:03:21 PM
Contaminated? Eddie doesn't seem to have reacted to it.
Didn't Eddie alert on pants ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 08:03:49 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 08:05:24 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
Bingo!
The bark: I want my toy back.
They're something else, these highly trained cadaver dogs ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:06:29 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
I don't agree, John. However game or work we call it, this activity has a beginning and an end for the dog. This is basic.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 08:06:58 PM
Sorry youve lost me Anne, Numi wasnt a cadaver dog..
Precisely, Redblossom, Numi would only follow the scent of an alive person. And it did.
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: DCI on May 22, 2013, 08:07:29 PM
What was Grime doing, using the video's to sell the dogs. BEFORE the files were released ?>)()<
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:07:47 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
Bingo!
The bark: I want my toy back.
They're something else, these highly trained cadaver dogs ...
Why are you despising Eddie, Mr Grime and Mr Harrison, Ferryman ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 08:11:02 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
Bingo!
The bark: I want my toy back.
They're something else, these highly trained cadaver dogs ...
Why are you despising Eddie, Mr Grime and Mr Harrison, Ferryman ?
I don't despise Eddie at all.
I believe Grime had an eye on a solo career and used the Madeleine investigation to advance it, which was successful (in the short term).
I don't believe that Grime's deployment of his dogs did anything to uncover the truth about what happened to Madeleine.
That's my beef with Grime ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 08:13:53 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
Bingo!
The bark: I want my toy back.
They're something else, these highly trained cadaver dogs ...
Why are you despising Eddie, Mr Grime and Mr Harrison, Ferryman ?
Because it suits his agenda, same as the agenda of everyone who tries to crucify Mr Amaral, its called dont look here, look there, classic tactic for diverting attention away from uncomdortaboe truths
So much so some have to pathetic lengths to twist and distort the evidence, most of it laughable
Kate Mccanns book is another example imo
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:15:41 PM
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
I'm sorry, Redblossom, this is probably not very clear for me and then badly expressed. The cat was near the blanket on the bed, a photo shows it. If the cat then had a scent of death, the blanket would have also, contamination or not. The blanket didn't smell death since Numi didn't reject it. So the cat could only have been contaminated after the disappearance, may be by the pants, since it spent a part of his toy life on the lap of Mrs McCann. The trouble with death scent is that it has no identity at all.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: DCI on May 22, 2013, 08:16:54 PM
Eddie never reacted to anything on Cuddle Cat, but he knew what it smelt like having just played with it. In reality it was Cuddle Cat that Eddie was seeking out in the sideboard and not any cadaver odour.
Grime had inadvertently turned the whole thing into a game.
Bingo!
The bark: I want my toy back.
They're something else, these highly trained cadaver dogs ...
Why are you despising Eddie, Mr Grime and Mr Harrison, Ferryman ?
I don't despise Eddie at all.
I believe Grime had an eye on a solo career and used the Madeleine investigation to advance it, which was successful (in the short term).
I don't believe that Grime's deployment of his dogs did anything to uncover the truth about what happened to Madeleine.
That's my beef with Grime ...
Well, he used those video's in February 2008. Surley he broke the Portuguese secrecy law!
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 08:18:41 PM
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
I'm sorry, Redblossom, this is probably not very clear for me and then badly expressed. The cat was near the blanket on the bed, a photo shows it. If the cat then had a scent of death, the blanket would have also, contamination or not. The blanket didn't smell death since Numi didn't reject it. So the cat could only have been contaminated after the disappearance, may be by the pants, since it spent a part of his toy life on the lap of Mrs McCann. The trouble with death scent is that it has no identity at all.
OK Anne thanks, I didnt know the scent of death might remove the alive scent of particles from an item
But we dont know for a fact where the items were, if the cat toy had death scent on it, the kids room would have and it didnt, if, the kids bedroom was not where the dog reacted, perhaps the toy was in the parents room where it did
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:19:30 PM
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
I'm sorry, Redblossom, this is probably not very clear for me and then badly expressed. The cat was near the blanket on the bed, a photo shows it. If the cat then had a scent of death, the blanket would have also, contamination or not. The blanket didn't smell death since Numi didn't reject it. So the cat could only have been contaminated after the disappearance, may be by the pants, since it spent a part of his toy life on the lap of Mrs McCann. The trouble with death scent is that it has no identity at all.
OK Anne thanks, I didnt know the scent of death might remove the alive scent of particles from an item
It doesn't remove them, but the dog is trained to avoid them since its mission is to track alive persons. When a sniffer dog is on a trail and suddenly stops, then one possibility is that the person is very close by and dead.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: DCI on May 22, 2013, 08:31:29 PM
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
I'm sorry, Redblossom, this is probably not very clear for me and then badly expressed. The cat was near the blanket on the bed, a photo shows it. If the cat then had a scent of death, the blanket would have also, contamination or not. The blanket didn't smell death since Numi didn't reject it. So the cat could only have been contaminated after the disappearance, may be by the pants, since it spent a part of his toy life on the lap of Mrs McCann. The trouble with death scent is that it has no identity at all.
But there wasn't a death scent on Kates trousers. That was bs, from sauces. Nor was the red top Madeleine's, it was S**ns.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 22, 2013, 08:34:16 PM
Thanks Anne
It seems no alive scent was trailed either for the tanner or smith trails
So she was not abducted by those two potential persons
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:34:33 PM
I really doubt the red top was Madeleine's : not her style.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:36:17 PM
It seems no alive scent was trailed either for the tanner or smith trails
So she was not abducted by those two potential persons
We came already to that hypothetical deductive conclusion, Redblossom..
yes I know, and the other conclusion might be she never left that flat alive that night, the dogs trail led to a previous route, around the apartments and down to the tapas bar door and across to the car park which was the place the mccanns took a short cut to her creche
Why would any abductor take her around the apartments and down the alleys and down a main road just as her dad had done a day or two earlier?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 08:48:51 PM
yes I know, and the other conclusion might be she never left that flat alive that night, the dogs trail led to a previous route, around the apartments and down to the tapas bar door and across to the car park which was the place the mccanns took a short cut to her creche
Why would any abductor take her around the apartments and down the alleys and down a main road just as her dad had done a day or two earlier?
Yes, either she wandered off and found her fate in the public parking or wasn't alive on the arms of the carrier. Too much reality for human kind.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:53:06 PM
yes I know, and the other conclusion might be she never left that flat alive that night, the dogs trail led to a previous route, around the apartments and down to the tapas bar door and across to the car park which was the place the mccanns took a short cut to her creche
Why would any abductor take her around the apartments and down the alleys and down a main road just as her dad had done a day or two earlier?
Yes, either she wandered off and found her fate in the public parking or wasn't alive on the arms of the carrier. Too much reality for human kind.
yes, or never left 5a on her own alive
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 08:59:12 PM
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
I'm sorry, Redblossom, this is probably not very clear for me and then badly expressed. The cat was near the blanket on the bed, a photo shows it. If the cat then had a scent of death, the blanket would have also, contamination or not. The blanket didn't smell death since Numi didn't reject it. So the cat could only have been contaminated after the disappearance, may be by the pants, since it spent a part of his toy life on the lap of Mrs McCann. The trouble with death scent is that it has no identity at all.
If ever Eddie had reacted to CC, there's a fairly simple potential explanation: Kate held it in her hand for ages at least from the footage of her outdoors. Skin cells and perspiration would have soaked into the material. The decomposition would have made it smell after a while. It got washed. It might have smelled ok to humans, but the decomposition might still have been perceptible to Eddie if he was concentrating extra hard.
However, I'm still not convinced that Eddie ever reacted to CC.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 09:15:31 PM
Im still confused Anne between the relationship between Numi sniffing the childs blanket and Eddies alerts to the cat, I dont know why the two are being linked
I'm sorry, Redblossom, this is probably not very clear for me and then badly expressed. The cat was near the blanket on the bed, a photo shows it. If the cat then had a scent of death, the blanket would have also, contamination or not. The blanket didn't smell death since Numi didn't reject it. So the cat could only have been contaminated after the disappearance, may be by the pants, since it spent a part of his toy life on the lap of Mrs McCann. The trouble with death scent is that it has no identity at all.
If ever Eddie had reacted to CC, there's a fairly simple potential explanation: Kate held it in her hand for ages at least from the footage of her outdoors. Skin cells and perspiration would have soaked into the material. The decomposition would have made it smell after a while. It got washed. It might have smelled ok to humans, but the decomposition might still have been perceptible to Eddie if he was concentrating extra hard.
However, I'm still not convinced that Eddie ever reacted to CC.
Neither am I. If he reacted it was to some old scent from the UK (sorry !)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: DCI on May 22, 2013, 09:18:59 PM
Interesting little snipet.
A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 09:41:11 PM
'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.
Martin Grime
Just about every alert in PdL was preceded by Eddie turning to face Grime.
Was that the 'change in behaviour'?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 09:43:20 PM
A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
Fact remains Eddie, a cdaver sog, alerted to 11 places in this case, thats why some are so rabid in their attempts to trash the alerts, oh well, sad at best, failures at worst
Cite, please.
you have NOT read the files, which is obvious by many of your posts you have not, I cant help you except to be KIND
cadaver dog alerted to
Living room Bedroom Vernadah Garden Soft toy Car Kates trousers Kates top Childs top
my apologies 9 not 11, still alot
Kates trousers Kates top Childs top
All picked up by Eddie in his mouth. Not a trained response
Soft toy
I want my toy back
Garden
Recently fertilised. There is a pig-based fertiliser.
Car
Gerry's blood
Then there was the PJ officer who cut his finger and the shaving cut of Paul Gordon.
None of it very promising for the the themccannsdunit brigade ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 10:25:55 PM
Animal Manures: From cows, pigs, chickens, etc. This one shouldn’t shock anyone. I think we’ve all walked by a yard that had the tell- tale odor of “fresh manure-based fertilizer”. Did you know though that the manure you buy at your local gardening store may contain livestock-grade hormones and antibiotics that can be readily absorbed by the plants you are growing?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 10:33:58 PM
Animal Manures: From cows, pigs, chickens, etc. This one shouldn’t shock anyone. I think we’ve all walked by a yard that had the tell- tale odor of “fresh manure-based fertilizer”. Did you know though that the manure you buy at your local gardening store may contain livestock-grade hormones and antibiotics that can be readily absorbed by the plants you are growing?
Thank you, Ferryman, but please a link saying that this manure was put in the G5 flowerbed.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 10:39:38 PM
Just about everywhere (else) Eddie was deployed (including places Harrison had nothing to do with and disowned afterwards) was a whistle-stop tour.
Only those places the McCanns were associated with were lingered over long, with the dog being repeatedly directed to places of "key" interest.
And lo!
Eventually, the dog turned, faced his master, and barked.
As Grime himself says, false alerts are most commonly induced by the handler ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 10:44:11 PM
Animal Manures: From cows, pigs, chickens, etc. This one shouldn’t shock anyone. I think we’ve all walked by a yard that had the tell- tale odor of “fresh manure-based fertilizer”. Did you know though that the manure you buy at your local gardening store may contain livestock-grade hormones and antibiotics that can be readily absorbed by the plants you are growing?
Thank you, Ferryman, but please a link saying that this manure was put in the G5 flowerbed.
I never made the claim of any link with the files.
Just offered the suggestion as a plausible explanation of Eddie's alert.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 10:44:49 PM
(including places Harrison had nothing to do with and disowned afterwards)
Ferryman , lol, have you got a link ?
Here is Harrison's summary of the searches:
The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by P
Inspections at the villa and the gym are both summarised (without description) as "PJ exercises"
While Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, he recommended, only, that cars owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.
One of those never made it (a car hired by Murat). 8 Harrison said nothing about did.
Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.
The only searches Harrison owns UK participation in are the ones he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murats' place and areas in and around PdL
That's it.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 22, 2013, 11:10:05 PM
I simply cannot accept the suggestion that Mr Grime 'lead' his dog into alerting
I'll give you my reasoning
At that point, Mr Grime would have been fully aware of the huge public support the McCanns had
He will have known that very high ranking officials in government ( right up to the Prime Minister ), together with wealthy and influential businessmen and showbiz stars, had been actively supporting the McCanns
What ... WHAT ... could he possibly have had to gain by prompting his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann's villa ?
It makes no sense at all
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 22, 2013, 11:13:58 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 11:15:45 PM
I simply cannot accept the suggestion that Mr Grime 'lead' his dog into alerting
I'll give you my reasoning
At that point, Mr Grime would have been fully aware of the huge public support the McCanns had
He will have known that very high ranking officials in government ( right up to the Prime Minister ), together with wealthy and influential businessmen and showbiz stars, had been actively supporting the McCanns
What ... WHAT ... could he possibly have had to gain by prompting his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann's villa ?
It makes no sense at all
Four words:
Haute de la Garenne
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 11:19:08 PM
Hauts de la Garenne, if I may, Ferryman ! But no, please, not again the c... !
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on May 22, 2013, 11:21:36 PM
I simply cannot accept the suggestion that Mr Grime 'lead' his dog into alerting
I'll give you my reasoning
At that point, Mr Grime would have been fully aware of the huge public support the McCanns had
He will have known that very high ranking officials in government ( right up to the Prime Minister ), together with wealthy and influential businessmen and showbiz stars, had been actively supporting the McCanns
What ... WHAT ... could he possibly have had to gain by prompting his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann's villa ?
It makes no sense at all
If it was 'unconscious' cueing - he wouldn't be aware that he was doing it. If (in view of the above) he was too eager or even anxious to 'get it right' that could have affected him. Anyone who has dog will know they are brilliant on picking up on the tiniest changes in the body language of their owners.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 22, 2013, 11:24:36 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 11:28:36 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
There was some shocking bad practice in deployment of the dogs and inexplicable decisions to conduct searches in places Madeleine never went near ....
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 11:28:43 PM
He was passing Cuddle Cat around like bloody pass the parcel. I'm sorry to say the whole exercise was a fiasco and a circus from beginning to end.
Those dogs might have be useful in locating actual human remains where they existed in sufficient quantity to actually be identified as such but that is where it ends.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 22, 2013, 11:28:50 PM
I simply cannot accept the suggestion that Mr Grime 'lead' his dog into alerting
I'll give you my reasoning
At that point, Mr Grime would have been fully aware of the huge public support the McCanns had
He will have known that very high ranking officials in government ( right up to the Prime Minister ), together with wealthy and influential businessmen and showbiz stars, had been actively supporting the McCanns
What ... WHAT ... could he possibly have had to gain by prompting his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann's villa ?
It makes no sense at all
If it was 'unconscious' cueing - he wouldn't be aware that he was doing it. If (in view of the above) he was too eager or even anxious to 'get it right' that could have affected him. Anyone who has dog will know they are brilliant on picking up on the tiniest changes in the body language of their owners.
What are you talking about, Benice, Mr Grime isn't an armchair handler, but a police officer who has trained his dogs for years, observing, caring, meditating ! Moreover, in the PDL operation, he wasn't alone, Gott sei Dank, he had with him the head of British sleuths concerning disappearances, Mr Harrison !
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 22, 2013, 11:36:46 PM
Notice how he never trusted them enough in order to say 100% that they had found a cadaver scent. It wouldn't have gone down too well or done his street cred any favours not to mention his bank balance if the dead person suddenly reappeared some time later after he had said they were dead.
No wonder he always said that the dogs marking was only an indication of what may be...not what is.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 22, 2013, 11:39:53 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
There was some shocking bad practice in deployment of the dogs and inexplicable decisions to conduct searches in places Madeleine never went near ....
You're missing my point ferryman
I am saying that if Mr Grime, who worked for the British police, was 'prone' to cueing his dogs, consiously or not ( for attention ? ... acclaim ? ) then it would be much more likely that he would have done so in Robert Murat's house
... or are we to believe that, for some unknown reason, he 'had it in for the McCanns' specificly ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on May 22, 2013, 11:41:21 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
Not necessarily unprofessional, but he was aware that he was part of an investigation that was being watched worldwide. That's quite a bit of pressure for anyone to be under.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 11:47:25 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
There was some shocking bad practice in deployment of the dogs and inexplicable decisions to conduct searches in places Madeleine never went near ....
You're missing my point ferryman
I am saying that if Mr Grime, who worked for the British police, was 'prone' to cueing his dogs, consiously or not ( for attention ? ... acclaim ? ) then it would be much more likely that he would have done so in Robert Murat's house
... or are we to believe that, for some unknown reason, he 'had it in for the McCanns' specificly ?
Well, don't forget that, by Amaral's account, Harrison had decided before an English dog had set paw on Portuguese soil the McCanns were very probably guilty.
I wonder if there is a clue there?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on May 22, 2013, 11:48:04 PM
I simply cannot accept the suggestion that Mr Grime 'lead' his dog into alerting
I'll give you my reasoning
At that point, Mr Grime would have been fully aware of the huge public support the McCanns had
He will have known that very high ranking officials in government ( right up to the Prime Minister ), together with wealthy and influential businessmen and showbiz stars, had been actively supporting the McCanns
What ... WHAT ... could he possibly have had to gain by prompting his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann's villa ?
It makes no sense at all
If it was 'unconscious' cueing - he wouldn't be aware that he was doing it. If (in view of the above) he was too eager or even anxious to 'get it right' that could have affected him. Anyone who has dog will know they are brilliant on picking up on the tiniest changes in the body language of their owners.
What are you talking about, Benice, Mr Grime isn't an armchair handler, but a police officer who has trained his dogs for years, observing, caring, meditating ! Moreover, in the PDL operation, he wasn't alone, Gott sei Dank, he had with him the head of British sleuths concerning disappearances, Mr Harrison !
He's still human Anne! Tests have been carried out - using police handlers and their dogs which have proved that cueing, be it conscious or unconscious is a fact of life.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 22, 2013, 11:48:22 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
Not necessarily unprofessional, but he was aware that he was part of an investigation that was being watched worldwide. That's quite a bit of pressure for anyone to be under.
I agree
At that time the McCanns were being feted by the great and good ... was it before or after Gerry was nominated as Scot of the year and received a standing ovation from a national police convention ?
Grime was under that kind of pressure
I just don't believe that he would 'cue' his dogs into falsely alerting in the McCanns villa ... why would he ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2013, 11:52:51 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
Not necessarily unprofessional, but he was aware that he was part of an investigation that was being watched worldwide. That's quite a bit of pressure for anyone to be under.
I agree
At that time the McCanns were being feted by the great and good ... was it before or after Gerry was nominated as Scot of the year and received a standing ovation from a national police convention ?
Grime was under that kind of pressure
I just don't believe that he would 'cue' his dogs into falsely alerting in the McCanns villa ... why would he ?
I'm sure you've watched the video of the inspection of the vehicles, as we all have. Would you not say there was a fairly heavy emphasis on the Renault, almost to the exclusion of the other vehicles?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on May 22, 2013, 11:56:07 PM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
There was some shocking bad practice in deployment of the dogs and inexplicable decisions to conduct searches in places Madeleine never went near ....
You're missing my point ferryman
I am saying that if Mr Grime, who worked for the British police, was 'prone' to cueing his dogs, consiously or not ( for attention ? ... acclaim ? ) then it would be much more likely that he would have done so in Robert Murat's house
... or are we to believe that, for some unknown reason, he 'had it in for the McCanns' specificly ?
Didn't he search RM's house after his dogs had alerted at 5a. If so, then maybe he was thinking along the lines of 'job done' and not be expecting to find anything at Murat's. It's the 'expectation' factor that can cause cueing. If Murat's car was one of those at the car park - then he certainly didn't pay it anywhere near the attention he paid to the McCanns car.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on May 23, 2013, 12:01:13 AM
Please don't deviate from topic. The thread relates solely to Eddie and Cuddle Cat.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 23, 2013, 12:01:23 AM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
Not necessarily unprofessional, but he was aware that he was part of an investigation that was being watched worldwide. That's quite a bit of pressure for anyone to be under.
I agree
At that time the McCanns were being feted by the great and good ... was it before or after Gerry was nominated as Scot of the year and received a standing ovation from a national police convention ?
Grime was under that kind of pressure
I just don't believe that he would 'cue' his dogs into falsely alerting in the McCanns villa ... why would he ?
I'm sure you've watched the video of the inspection of the vehicles, as we all have. Would you not say there was a fairly heavy emphasis on the Renault, almost to the exclusion of the other vehicles?
Yes, from the footage we have it does appear that alot more time was spent on the McCann vehicle
Do you know why I think that may have been ? ... because the dogs had already alerted exclusively in the McCann's apartment
I think they felt they 'had their man' at that point ... had felt it from the moment that dog threw his head back and barked with such certainty to the shelf in the McCann's wardrobe
... that's why they spent more time on the McCann car perhaps, and why they persisted with the cuddle toy ... they were expecting alerts by then ( and they came )
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 12:33:31 AM
I simply cannot accept the suggestion that Mr Grime 'lead' his dog into alerting
I'll give you my reasoning
At that point, Mr Grime would have been fully aware of the huge public support the McCanns had
He will have known that very high ranking officials in government ( right up to the Prime Minister ), together with wealthy and influential businessmen and showbiz stars, had been actively supporting the McCanns
What ... WHAT ... could he possibly have had to gain by prompting his dogs to falsely alert in the McCann's villa ?
It makes no sense at all
If it was 'unconscious' cueing - he wouldn't be aware that he was doing it. If (in view of the above) he was too eager or even anxious to 'get it right' that could have affected him. Anyone who has dog will know they are brilliant on picking up on the tiniest changes in the body language of their owners.
What are you talking about, Benice, Mr Grime isn't an armchair handler, but a police officer who has trained his dogs for years, observing, caring, meditating ! Moreover, in the PDL operation, he wasn't alone, Gott sei Dank, he had with him the head of British sleuths concerning disappearances, Mr Harrison !
He's still human Anne! Tests have been carried out - using police handlers and their dogs which have proved that cueing, be it conscious or unconscious is a fact of life.
That's why they were two, a handler and a supervisor. Fighting against humanity in themselves ! Now why would they try to frame the McCann couple ? Had they a feeling, an intuition that those weren't telling the truth ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 12:44:00 AM
Whether you like or not, they knew their dogs, they knew that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann. As they couldn't prove it, neither who, why and how, they had no other reasonable choice than stepping backwards. And because they did it, they're now laughed at and ridiculed ! Bravo !
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 23, 2013, 01:16:05 AM
Whether you like or not, they knew their dogs, they knew that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann. As they couldn't prove it, neither who, why and how, they had no other reasonable choice than stepping backwards. And because they did it, they're now laughed at and ridiculed ! Bravo !
It really is quite astonishing that people with no real expertise presume to know more about Martin Grime's dogs than he does !
*shakes head in bemusement *
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: registrar on May 23, 2013, 02:02:59 AM
Whether you like or not, they knew their dogs, they knew that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann. As they couldn't prove it, neither who, why and how, they had no other reasonable choice than stepping backwards. And because they did it, they're now laughed at and ridiculed ! Bravo !
It really is quite astonishing that people with no real expertise presume to know more about Martin Grime's dogs than he does !
*shakes head in bemusement *
Any quips about missing children on this thread?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 23, 2013, 07:12:21 AM
'Leading' otherwise known as cueing may be done quite unconsciously.
I just think that if Mr Grime was that unprofessional, then, given the circumstances surrounding the case, it was much more likely that he would have 'unconsiously cued' in Robert Murat's gaff
Not if he had been briefed that the McCanns were the real suspects. Look at the amount of time he gave to the obvious McCann car.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 23, 2013, 07:13:21 AM
Extend your vocabulary. Look up gullible.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 23, 2013, 07:17:43 AM
Whether you like or not, they knew their dogs, they knew that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann. As they couldn't prove it, neither who, why and how, they had no other reasonable choice than stepping backwards. And because they did it, they're now laughed at and ridiculed ! Bravo !
Please use English correctly.
They did not know "that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann"
This is why you make so many error. They may have believed that All they 'knew' was that the dogs had alerted. They also 'knew' that that did NOT mean that a cadaver had ben there. Mr Grime is extremely careful to never say that.
Know and believe are two very difficult entities.
Please use them correctly.
"
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 23, 2013, 07:49:24 AM
Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Angelo222 on May 23, 2013, 08:52:23 AM
Whether you like or not, they knew their dogs, they knew that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann. As they couldn't prove it, neither who, why and how, they had no other reasonable choice than stepping backwards. And because they did it, they're now laughed at and ridiculed ! Bravo !
Please use English correctly.
They did not know "that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann"
This is why you make so many error. They may have believed that All they 'knew' was that the dogs had alerted. They also 'knew' that that did NOT mean that a cadaver had ben there. Mr Grime is extremely careful to never say that.
Know and believe are two very difficult entities.
Please use them correctly.
"
So what is your excuse debunker for using poor English? Criticizing someone whose first language is not English is a bit rich don't you think when you don't even manage it?? @)(++(*
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 23, 2013, 09:38:26 AM
Whether you like or not, they knew their dogs, they knew that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann. As they couldn't prove it, neither who, why and how, they had no other reasonable choice than stepping backwards. And because they did it, they're now laughed at and ridiculed ! Bravo !
Please use English correctly.
They did not know "that, within right/false alerts probabilities, those dogs had discovered some fatality had happened to little Madeleine McCann"
This is why you make so many error. They may have believed that All they 'knew' was that the dogs had alerted. They also 'knew' that that did NOT mean that a cadaver had ben there. Mr Grime is extremely careful to never say that.
Know and believe are two very difficult entities.
Please use them correctly.
"
So what is your excuse debunker for using poor English? Criticizing someone whose first language is not English is a bit rich don't you think when you don't even manage it?? @)(++(*
As I have pointed out, I would not normally criticise someone's English whether they were native speakers or not. But Anna Guedes has mad a large amount of noise about her ability to translate Portuguese to colloquial English. I am merely reminding her thatthat claim is untrue, not goading her about imperfect English. SHe has made any important errors, many regarding false friends (words which mean different things in different languages, or in important nuances of meaning between near synonyms in English (of which there are more than in any other language.
Not goading, merely reminding her that her claim to translating into good Eng;ish must be flawed!!!!!
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 23, 2013, 09:52:32 AM
I just don't believe that he would 'cue' his dogs into falsely alerting in the McCanns villa ... why would he ?
Once again you are confusing intentional cueing with unintentional cueing. No one(to the best of my knowledge) is accusing Grime of deliberately cueing the dogs to alert at the McCanns possession, do you understand this?
At the time Grime took the dogs to Portugal, he had resigned from the UK police and was setting up a new business. This rather changes the whole basis upon which he was working.
I understand the Levy video was subsequently used to promote Grime and dogs in Jersey. In order to obtain lucrative work.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 10:52:13 AM
Anna Guedes has mad a large amount of noise Parapraxis of an angry nurse ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 10:55:09 AM
Releasing those videos did nothing whatsoever for Grime's credibility.
I agree totally. It was irresponsible to release without comment to the public videos that were filmed in order to be analysed carefully by competent persons.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 23, 2013, 10:58:56 AM
Anna Guedes has mad a large amount of noise Parapraxis of an angry nurse ?
I make no particular claim to be a good typist, especially on a tablet.
But your claims to be proficient in translating into colloquial English have been fully exposed.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on May 23, 2013, 08:56:51 PM
Since the thread is about cuddle cat, and the dog's alert to it, may I ask if there is any truth to the claim that Kate McCann washed the toy at some point ( or is that a myth ? )
If it is true, does anyone know when this washing is claimed to have happened ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 23, 2013, 08:58:55 PM
Since the thread is about cuddle cat, and the dog's alert to it, may I ask if there is any truth to the claim that Kate McCann washed the toy at some point ( or is that a myth ? )
If it is true, does anyone know when this washing is claimed to have happened ?
It's perfectly true.
Kate washed cuddle cat.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: debunker on May 23, 2013, 09:11:33 PM
Sometimes I wish that the McCanns had been charged so that we could have seen all the evidence totally demolished in court (if ever allowed to be admitted as evidence!)
No reliable dog alerts
No reliable DNA results.
Just happenstance, hearsay and police mismanagement.
It's a shame that you have no influence what so over over them. As soon as they could they fled like rabbits and never cared to go back to aid the investigation.
The Portuguese police failed to build a case against them and the Prosecutor found there was no indication of them committing a crime.
Nothing then to run from.
Have you got that Portuguese Neglect Law that you promised yet?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 23, 2013, 09:12:30 PM
Since the thread is about cuddle cat, and the dog's alert to it, may I ask if there is any truth to the claim that Kate McCann washed the toy at some point ( or is that a myth ? )
If it is true, does anyone know when this washing is claimed to have happened ?
According to KMs diaries printed in the NOTW it was on 12 July
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on May 23, 2013, 09:14:32 PM
Since the thread is about cuddle cat, and the dog's alert to it, may I ask if there is any truth to the claim that Kate McCann washed the toy at some point ( or is that a myth ? )
If it is true, does anyone know when this washing is claimed to have happened ?
According to KMs diaries printed in the NOTW it was on 12 July
What's the big deal about Kate washing cuddle cat?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 23, 2013, 09:16:08 PM
Since the thread is about cuddle cat, and the dog's alert to it, may I ask if there is any truth to the claim that Kate McCann washed the toy at some point ( or is that a myth ? )
If it is true, does anyone know when this washing is claimed to have happened ?
According to KMs diaries printed in the NOTW it was on 12 July
What's the big deal about Kate washing cuddle cat?
Dunno, I never said there was, just replying to a question if thats ok with you
ETA But YOU know what the criticism has been, how COULD a mother wash an item full of her childs smell, of course KM said there was no smell left after it had been in use, got dirty and smeared with sun tan lotion
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 09:38:36 PM
I know a mother who never hoovered the carpet in her dead little boy's room, thinking hair was there.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on May 23, 2013, 10:50:31 PM
Since the thread is about cuddle cat, and the dog's alert to it, may I ask if there is any truth to the claim that Kate McCann washed the toy at some point ( or is that a myth ? )
If it is true, does anyone know when this washing is claimed to have happened ?
According to KMs diaries printed in the NOTW it was on 12 July
What's the big deal about Kate washing cuddle cat?
I was just wondering if the toy had been washed before the dog alerted to it
I assume that washing an item, whilst not eliminating cadaver scent altogether, would, perhaps, make the scent a little less discernable ... would it ? ( I'm no expert on this subject )
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 11:21:16 PM
How many times was it washed ? Once was enough to eliminate any scent of Madeleine. So why not wash the toy regularly for hygienic reasons afterwards ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on May 24, 2013, 01:57:34 AM
Anne I would never have washed it or let it be played with by others and get dirty, covered in sun lotion
Kate obviously gained comfort by having Cuddlecat with her. I can understand that.
However, even after 6 years - she still keeps Madeleine's bedroom the same as it was. So - same principle as yours Redblossom - but expressed in a different way.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mrs. B on May 24, 2013, 08:45:38 AM
Anne I would never have washed it or let it be played with by others and get dirty, covered in sun lotion
Kate obviously gained comfort by having Cuddlecat with her. I can understand that.
However, even after 6 years - she still keeps Madeleine's bedroom the same as it was. So - same principle as yours Redblossom - but expressed in a different way.
Yes, though it was another major mistake to let her do that, the toy, along with the other possible evidence should have been bagged & taken away immediately by police, for forensic examination.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on December 09, 2013, 03:04:59 PM
This thread is well worth a read for anyone who has never seen how Eddie failed to react to Cuddle Cat.
The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
This video contains footage recorded inside the Vista Mar Villa, Rua das Flores, in which the McCanns lived from 02 July - 09 September 2007. This video was recorded on 02 August 2007.
Before making any comment about this event lets have another look at the actual video.
Video: > Eddie in McCann's rented villa. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 09, 2013, 05:30:46 PM
Please tell me how many times CC was washed? I think that by grabbing CC and tossing him onto the floor Eddie had first marked the toy according to Grime. Not a 100% bark alert but he was interested in it because he grabbed it out of the bin.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 05:47:49 PM
Please tell me how many times CC was washed? I think that by grabbing CC and tossing him onto the floor Eddie had first marked the toy according to Grime. Not a 100% bark alert but he was interested in it because he grabbed it out of the bin.
The odorant VOCs are more dense and easier to pick up in the air of a closet.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 09, 2013, 07:46:14 PM
The odorant VOCs are more dense and easier to pick up in the air of a closet.
That is what I thought too...Eddie made a gruffing sound when he pulled CC out of that box...being in the open air for months and carried around and also washed may have dissipated any scent, IF it was there.....obviously
Mr Grime must have had a reason to do the second test with it hidden....in the cupboard....fact remains its in his report....that the dog reacted to it...he was the handler, he will know what his dog does and doesnt do cant or cant do.... If want to think he made it all up, well, thats their view.....
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 07:53:31 PM
Why did Grime indicate that the toy had been sent for forensic analysis when it never was.
Do we know?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 09:06:58 PM
That is what I thought too...Eddie made a gruffing sound when he pulled CC out of that box...being in the open air for months and carried around and also washed may have dissipated any scent, IF it was there.....obviously
Mr Grime must have had a reason to do the second test with it hidden....in the cupboard....fact remains its in his report....that the dog reacted to it...he was the handler, he will know what his dog does and doesnt do cant or cant do.... If want to think he made it all up, well, thats their view.....
I do agree plainly with that. We're no handlers, we know almost nothing, I trust Mr Grime and Mr Harrison easily because I can't find a motive for them to cheat the PJ, and I see that nobody else finds..
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 09:08:15 PM
I can't do an accurate frame-by-frame freeze. If anyone else can, once Eddie knocks over the bin the CC on it, and loses interest, the camera's view seems to be blocked by the armchair, then CC appears in the middle of the living-room floor.
Out of curiosity, was this continuous filming, or was there a cut between CC being knocked over and then reappearing in the middle of the floor?
Yes well we wernt there were we, and its easy to cut frames out.
Martin Grimes is not in it to hang the McCanns.
The dog is NOT trained to take a toy out of a bin. If the dog took the toy out of the bin, it did so because it could recognise something.
The toy had been so well washed.....which is another story isnt it.
I think this thread is POINTLESS like all the others trying to discourage the dogs and Grimes.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 12:25:15 AM
Very interesting thread. I agree it looks like Eddie is alerting to something on top of the dining area cupboard. Immediatly before the bark he has just reached up to smell the items halfway along the top surface of that cupboard. What is the pile immediately in front of his nose in this photo? (The pile wIth white item on top and other colours beneath). Is it a pile of paperwork? Or a pile of folded clothing? http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg P.S. you can see the pile better at 5:47 in the video. P.S what room did the 3 clothing items come from?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on December 11, 2013, 01:21:04 AM
We can all agree that this particular dog ( who was trained to bark when he detected the smell of death ) was highly esteemed for his successful deployments ... can we not ?
So, given this dog's historical success, WHY would his handler ( equally successful and esteemed in his own right ) have done anything to jeopardise their hard earned reputations as the best in their field ?
You see, the dog's ( and his handler's ) excellence did not hinge on 'alerting' ... from a professional point of view it did not matter whether he did or not
All that mattered was that the dog was accurate
What would motivate Mr Grime into 'cueing' his excellent and historically accurate dog into making an inaccurate alert ?
... what would he have to gain ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 02:29:36 AM
IMO Eddie is alerting to one (or more) item of clothing in a pile on top of of the dining area cupboard. BTW can no-one see the tshirt (with white plane visible and a blurred hint of tower colour)?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on December 11, 2013, 02:53:41 AM
IMO Eddie is alerting to one (or more) item of clothing in a pile on top of of the dining area cupboard. BTW can no-one see the tshirt (with white plane visible and a blurred hint of tower colour)?
To be honest, this exercise in analysing the minutiae of the cadaver dog's alerts baffles me
The indisputable fact remains ... a dog trained to bark when he smells the scent of death, barked repeatedly in relation to Madeleine McCann
He did not bark when exposed to anything that did not not relate directly to the child who disappeared that night
We must start there
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 11, 2013, 03:51:48 AM
We can all agree that this particular dog ( who was trained to bark when he detected the smell of death ) was highly esteemed for his successful deployments ... can we not ?
So, given this dog's historical success, WHY would his handler ( equally successful and esteemed in his own right ) have done anything to jeopardise their hard earned reputations as the best in their field ?
You see, the dog's ( and his handler's ) excellence did not hinge on 'alerting' ... from a professional point of view it did not matter whether he did or not
All that mattered was that the dog was accurate
What would motivate Mr Grime into 'cueing' his excellent and historically accurate dog into making an inaccurate alert ?
... what would he have to gain ?
I must admit I struggle to understand many of these dog issues, but I have often wondered about the very good point you make, namely that the dogs were not being expected to look for one thing or another.
Although the dogs' performance did not hinge on the necessity, as you say, of alerting, we are nonetheless left speculating about whether or not their responses were correct, because we have no Madeleine (alive or dead) or evidence as yet of another person having died on that spot to corroborate or disprove those responses' veracity.
Does this make sense?
I realise that there are other cases where no body has been found and the dogs have been proven to be correct - but we still need corroborating evidence of some kind before we can be sure, don't we?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: icabodcrane on December 11, 2013, 04:12:59 AM
I must admit I struggle to understand many of these dog issues, but I have often wondered about the very good point you make, namely that the dogs were not being expected to look for one thing or another.
Although the dogs' performance did not hinge on the necessity, as you say, of alerting, we are nonetheless left speculating about whether or not their responses were correct, because we have no Madeleine (alive or dead) or evidence as yet of another person having died on that spot to corroborate or disprove those responses' veracity.
Does this make sense?
I realise that there are other cases where no body has been found and the dogs have been proven to be correct - but we still need corroborating evidence of some kind before we can be sure, don't we?
Without corroborating ( forensic ) evidence, the dog's alerts remain 'indicative' of the scent of a dead body having been present, rather than absolute proof of it
The point I am making is that there is no reason to presume that the dog's handler 'cued' the dog into barking ( inaccurately )
... there is simply no logical reason for him to have done so
Mr Grime's professional reputation rested on his dogs being accurate ( whether they alerted or not ) ... it simply makes no sense that he would think it necessary to 'cue' Eddie into barking
Why would he ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: colombosstogey on December 11, 2013, 06:37:01 AM
Without corroborating ( forensic ) evidence, the dog's alerts remain 'indicative' of the scent of a dead body having been present, rather than absolute proof of it
The point I am making is that there is no reason to presume that the dog's handler 'cued' the dog into barking ( inaccurately )
... there is simply no logical reason for him to have done so
Mr Grime's professional reputation rested on his dogs being accurate ( whether they alerted or not ) ... it simply makes no sense that he would think it necessary to 'cue' Eddie into barking
Why would he ?
Grimes had no idea where the dogs would alert. They might never have. But the fact they alerted constantly with regard to the family for me should make someone sit up and have a WTF moment.....just because there is no body means nothing, quite often the dogs have alerted and later the perbs have confessed etc, or the body was found.
I dont know if the child is dead or not but something odd has gone on for the dogs to keep it up.
I actually expected them to alert at Murats house at first no i really did and was shocked actually that it was the McCanns apartment they alerted to.
Wasnt Murat still in the frame at the time so if Grimes wanted browny points why not get the dog to bark there too......
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: colombosstogey on December 11, 2013, 06:40:20 AM
Next sequence from 01.40 has Eddie running around the apartment lounge sniffing before he comes across the toy bucket containing Cuddle Cat.
(http://i.imgur.com/LvDKK3U.jpg)
What the famous Cuddle Cat consigned to a bucket on the floor behind the settee.....oh dear. Now I wouldn't have expected to find it there as I thought it was the most treasured possession Mrs McCann had of her daughter and it was constantly on journeys with her. Poor CC obviously that day it wasnt needed....
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 07:52:33 AM
Grimes had no idea where the dogs would alert. They might never have. But the fact they alerted constantly with regard to the family for me should make someone sit up and have a WTF moment.....just because there is no body means nothing, quite often the dogs have alerted and later the perbs have confessed etc, or the body was found.
I dont know if the child is dead or not but something odd has gone on for the dogs to keep it up.
I actually expected them to alert at Murats house at first no i really did and was shocked actually that it was the McCanns apartment they alerted to.
Wasnt Murat still in the frame at the time so if Grimes wanted browny points why not get the dog to bark there too......
I don't knock the dogs or grimes its you who doesn't understand the potential meaning of the alerts. grime is careful to point out that the alerts could arise as a result of several different scenarios and that the dog MAY be alerting to cadverine. The one criticism I have of Grime is that he could have been clearer in his explanation. You can post till kingdom come...the dogs alerts do NOT prove that there was a body in the apartment...my source...Grime..you are merely deluding yourself
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2013, 08:26:37 AM
Has anyone asked themself the question why did Grime target Cuddle Cat in the first place and hold it up like some trophy at the end of the exercise??
This was not an impartial test otherwise the toy would not have been hidden in a cupboard after the dog initially failed to alert to it.
This was a planned exercise and calls into question the validity of the entire episode. Just like what happened in the underground garage, this was yet another example of a handler actively attempting to influence the outcome of what was supposed to be an open and genuine inspection.
Had this ever come to court the dog evidence would have been torn to shreds.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on December 11, 2013, 08:27:55 AM
I don't knock the dogs or grimes its you who doesn't understand the potential meaning of the alerts. grime is careful to point out that the alerts could arise as a result of several different scenarios and that the dog MAY be alerting to cadverine. The one criticism I have of Grime is that he could have been clearer in his explanation. You can post till kingdom come...the dogs alerts do NOT prove that there was a body in the apartment...my source...Grime..you are merely deluding yourself
I agree davel. Anyone who claims a dead body must have been in 5A at some time is disputing what Grime has told us about why a scent may be present.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2013, 08:42:30 AM
Really? So why was he manipulating the scene?? Why go to such trouble to secure an alert to a cuddly toy when the dog didn't show the slightest interest in it (scent wise) in the first place??
Like it or not, Eddie had Cuddle Cat in his mouth, had there been the slightest hint of cadaverine on it he would have instantly alerted...he didn't!!
Whatever Eddie alerted to in that cupboard it most certainly wasn't Cuddle Cat unless, and this is an important point, could the dog have been merely searching out the very toy he had in his mouth minutes earlier?? Was Eddie effectively seeking out objects he was already familiar with??
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on December 11, 2013, 09:00:01 AM
I don't knock the dogs or grimes its you who doesn't understand the potential meaning of the alerts. grime is careful to point out that the alerts could arise as a result of several different scenarios and that the dog MAY be alerting to cadverine. The one criticism I have of Grime is that he could have been clearer in his explanation. You can post till kingdom come...the dogs alerts do NOT prove that there was a body in the apartment...my source...Grime..you are merely deluding yourself
If youre going to quote him, best use his own words, ....he did not say what you suggest he did, yiu have it backward
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2013, 09:10:06 AM
If youre going to quote him, best use his own words, ....he did not say what you suggest he did, yiu have it backward
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
Basically useless then...a total waste of the Portuguese taxpayers money.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 11, 2013, 09:12:38 AM
Basically useless then...a total waste of the Portuguese taxpayers money.
Would police use them if they were that? I bet the police spent far more time and money chasing up bogus sightings worldwide.....and 7k is a drop in the ocean to what was spent overall....
Regarding Grime's summary, what else could he say, he is just relaying how it is.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Angelo222 on December 11, 2013, 10:31:07 AM
Does anyone really believe that the deployment of Eddie and Keela was done impartially?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on December 11, 2013, 10:56:31 AM
Mick Swindells, a retired police handler who works as a freelance trainer and handler in Blackpool:
Swindells says: "The best thing about using a dog to detect cadavers, as opposed to machines, is that dogs have the ability to think. But that's also the worst thing about using dogs." This means that cadaver dogs appear to have sufficient intelligence to recognise a corpse across a range of environmental conditions. However, they can also be distracted, for example by methane produced naturally in a peat bog (corpses also produce methane).
One indisputable advantage dogs have over machines is that they can quickly narrow down a search when a large area has to be covered. Adee Schoon of Leiden University, a scientific adviser to the canine department of the Netherlands National Police Agency, sums up the attitude of many who work with human cadaver dogs: "We use dogs as intelligent samplers, to tell us where to look further."
So, although death dogs may not always get it right, their discoveries can make the difference between solving a crime and leaving dark secrets buried for ever.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 11:36:01 AM
Look up the clothing diligence by Eddie later the same day - what box did the 3 alerted items come from? Clue: not from any of the bedrooms boxes. Now go back to the toy footage discussed here, where you can see lots of clothing before it is boxed, and ask: Where are those 3 items here? What is undernose immediately before bark? Voila! The importance of this result IMO is that the toy was not alerted to. Never. This is a major advance in confirming that KM's description of the discovered scene on 3 May is accurate and honest IMO.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 12:01:14 PM
I agree davel. Anyone who claims a dead body must have been in 5A at some time is disputing what Grime has told us about why a scent may be present.
No smoke without fire. It there was death scent (listen to Mr Grime saying Eddie picked up the scent when the door was open), there must have been a human body there at least for one hour or two, not provable it was Madeleine's though. Or do you think it was the body of a pig ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 12:19:10 PM
Does anyone really believe that the deployment of Eddie and Keela was done impartially?
I do, absolutely, and I'm sure that being a handler requires intelligence, sensitivity and a lot of practice. You don't get it just watching a video. And I think that the first step, if one wants to understand what the dogs do, is to study the basis of the physiology of olfaction.
I believe the UK institutions, Angelo, are rigorous. Reading his reports convinced me that Prof Harrison who supervised all the dogs operations is a very qualified and honest person.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 12:33:50 PM
Would police use them if they were that? I bet the police spent far more time and money chasing up bogus sightings worldwide.....and 7k is a drop in the ocean to what was spent overall....
Regarding Grime's summary, what else could he say, he is just relaying how it is.
Certainly and I'm sure most Portuguese taxpayers aren't sorry about the expenses with the dogs because at least they've learnt something. I'm also sure that most of them are sorry for the time spent in vain of police officers running after sightings produced by the McCann campaigns, without getting nothing but the contempt (by proxy) of the McCanns and the insults of media that nobody thought of criticizing for this.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 01:15:39 PM
For Angelo
Police found Lane's car running several blocks away from the alleged carjacking site, but the toddler was missing.(Lane is the father, Bianca his missing daughter). Prosecutors say the child is presumed dead. Dog handler and FBI contractor Martin Grime testified during Lane's trial Wednesday that he and his two English springer spaniels -- Morse and Keela -- flew from England to Washington, D.C., then drove to Detroit on Dec. 4 to search for Bianca. Local investigators took Grime and Morse, who is trained to detect decomposing human remains, to an enclosed garage at the Detroit Police Department's impound lot. Inside, he released Morse, leading him through a maze of 31 parked cars, including Lane's silver Mercury. "He went underneath Mr. Lane's car then came out and barked ... " Grime said, adding that he wasn't told that the silver Mercury was Lane's until after the search was complete. "What was the response what you opened the door and the trunk, sir?" Assistant Prosecutor Carin Goldfarb asked. "There was a positive response -- the dog barked continuously," he said, adding that the dog didn't bark at any other cars. He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms. Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room. "The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said. Investigators then set up a search in another warehouse using Bianca's blanket that had been in the car seat. Grime said the dog barked when it came across a brown paper bag on the floor with the blanket inside. "Were you aware of where any of these items were going to be when Morse signaled on them?" Goldfarb asked. "No," Grime said, adding that he can't force the dog to bark continuously and he never saw the actual car seat or blanket. Grime said he then took Morse to Lane's house, where Morse sat and barked in Bianca's bedroom, close to the opening of a door-less closet. "Have the results you've come up with ever been contradicted?" Judge Vonda Evans asked. He said no. But Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, raised questions about the dog's ability to detect decomposition during his cross-examination. "You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime. "He gave us a positive response," Grime said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see." "The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked. "No," Grime said. Lane's attorney, Terry L. Johnson, said in testimony Wednesday in Wayne County Circuit Court that the dog's positive detection of human decomposition in this case, signified with repeated barking, is unsubstantiated because it hasn't been linked to a corpse. Johnson, who questioned the forensic canine experts with direction from Texas-based police service dog analyst Steven Nicely, added that Morse didn't alert its handler to the scent of decomposition on Lane's clothing. "You have no way of telling what Morse responded to," said Johnson, noting the positive detection hasn't been connected to Bianca's body or anyone else's. "You don't know if it was a positive or negative response." Grime conceded a determination is usually made when something is found. "The corroboration would normally be you finding a cadaver, bone or human blood that I could see," he told Johnson, adding that the dog has never given a false response. Johnson has called the relatively new scientific method "highly prejudicial" and unsuccessfully fought to have it excluded from Lane's trial. Grime testified Wednesday that Morse detected a cadaver scent inside Lane's car two days after the alleged carjacking. The dog selected the vehicle, which was among 31 others, at a Detroit impound lot. The dog later alerted Grime of alleged human decomposition on Bianca's car seat and blanket as well as the girl's bedroom inside Lane's home. Grime testified that the dog was accurate in tests before the visit to Detroit and after. Grime has said the cadaver dogs cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition. Rex A. Stockham, forensic canine program manager for the FBI, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. He said the English springer spaniel is regularly tested for proficiency, and while no dog is perfect, Morse has been accurate. "I'm aware of no false positives for Morse," he said. "We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect." http://www.freep.com/article/20121004/NEWS01/310040204/
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 11, 2013, 01:50:22 PM
17 February 2010 Daily Star Wilma Riley Murder trial is told of dunes discovery
A sniffer dog involved in the Madeleine McCann and Soham cases found the body of a man buried in sand dunes, a murder jury was told yesterday.
Specialist canine handler Martin Grime told how he and his three springer spaniels, Eddie, Keela and Morse were called in to assist with the hunt for Bob "Black Bob" Rose.
The 54-year-old disappeared last June on the Orkney isle of Sanday.
The witness told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC, that Eddie, who is trained to find bodies, reacted when he was taken to the dunes at Sty Wick.
He said: "I noticed a change in his behaviour. He identified one spot.
"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion, he started to dig which I've never seen him do before."
The jury was told that a body was subsequently found at the spot where Eddie had indicated.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 02:17:48 PM
Rex A. Stockham, forensic canine program manager for the FBI, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. He said the English springer spaniel is regularly tested for proficiency, and while no dog is perfect, Morse has been accurate. "I'm aware of no false positives for Morse," he said. "We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect."
***
!!
Not useless then......
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2013, 02:26:12 PM
Rex A. Stockham, forensic canine program manager for the FBI, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. He said the English springer spaniel is regularly tested for proficiency, and while no dog is perfect, Morse has been accurate. "I'm aware of no false positives for Morse," he said. "We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect."
***
!!
Not useless then......
Morse.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 02:39:00 PM
Does anyone really believe that the deployment of Eddie and Keela was done impartially?
I don't know a lot about the dogs or their training, but it is definitely possible in essence that Grime, wittingly or otherwise, could influence them in some way.
It is possible that he has his own notions about the Madeleine case and that these could have influenced him. We all have our opinions on the matter - why shouldn't he?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 03:26:40 PM
I don't know a lot about the dogs or their training, but it is definitely possible in essence that Grime, wittingly or otherwise, could influence them in some way.
It is possible that he has his own notions about the Madeleine case and that these could have influenced him. We all have our opinions on the matter - why shouldn't he?
The usual suspect then, the one accredited by many UK profilers, never lived in 5A. We say in French : quand on veut tuer son chien, on dit qu'il a la rage.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2013, 03:39:47 PM
I don't know a lot about the dogs or their training, but it is definitely possible in essence that Grime, wittingly or otherwise, could influence them in some way.
It is possible that he has his own notions about the Madeleine case and that these could have influenced him. We all have our opinions on the matter - why shouldn't he?
My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing.
Martin Grime
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 05:09:37 PM
In your opinion which doesnt matter......as you are not qualified to say so....over and above the professional
Eddie is trained to screen clothes...read the files! @)(++(*
No opinion on this forum is of any consequence and anyone who thinks they do is a fool. SY believe Maddie may still be alive...what does that say about the dogs alerts
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 05:13:48 PM
No opinion on this forum is of any consequence and anyone who thinks they do is a fool. SY believe Maddie may still be alive...what does that say about the dogs alerts
The professionals opinion is and that is what we are talking about....no need to derail with woes about fools.....as for SY think Maddie is alive, all Ive heard is Redwoods personal belief....hardly speaking for the whole force now......and in any case he said that as a starting position in the investigation Eta i mean review......
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 05:27:43 PM
The professionals opinion is and that is what we are talking about....no need to derail with woes about fools.....as for SY think Maddie is alive, all Ive heard is Redwoods personal belief....hardly speaking for the whole force now......and in any case he said that as a starting position in the investigation
Hadn't he said it, the taxpayers would have protested and rightly imo : so much money and energy vs no chance of finding a living girl ! As the Lane case shows, no body, no way to know what happened and why, without a confession. The US believe Morse wouldn't have alerted in the bedroom and in the car from which allegedly the little girl was snatched. They convicted the father, but the public, the more than thousand persons who searched for the little girl will never know how it happened.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 05:45:32 PM
Still from OP video at 5:48. 1=blue control tower, 2=white plane ???
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 07:38:12 PM
The usual suspect then, the one accredited by many UK profilers, never lived in 5A. We say in French : quand on veut tuer son chien, on dit qu'il a la rage.
How rude and ignorant to post in another language, is this not breaking the rules of the forum.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 07:46:51 PM
If you didn't notice, the forum is called "UK Justice" why do you feel the need to jump at every post aimed at other posters, its a form of bullying.
and yours wasnt? Oh excuse me for expressing my opinion on you jumping on anne for nothing much @)(++(*
just calling her rude and ignorant......for what sane reasonable reason...none
Eta Would be nice if you objected to some who accuse others of posting x y z which they never did and refusing to back it up or apologise...now theres a worthy bone for you to chew on if you need one....not right is it? Is it? 8((()*/
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pinkblossoms on December 11, 2013, 08:17:36 PM
and yours wasnt? Oh excuse me for expressing my opinion on you jumping on anne for nothing much @)(++(*
just calling her rude and ignorant......for what sane reasonable reason...none
Eta Would be nice if you objected to some who accuse others of posting x y z which they never did and refusing to back it up or apologise...now theres a worthy bone for you to chew on if you need one....not right is it? Is it? 8((()*/
Are you quite finished with your useless rant,can Anneguedes not answer for herself,or doesn't she understand English.
Anyway crack on honey.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pinkblossoms on December 11, 2013, 08:22:23 PM
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 11, 2013, 08:31:28 PM
I perhaps don't understand English. This is no crime afaik. The sentence in French was for SH, who understands French. Now to satisfy your curiosity : When you want to get rid of your dog, just say that it has rabies.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 08:33:25 PM
I perhaps don't understand English. This is no crime afaik. The sentence in French was for SH, who understands French. Now to satisfy your curiosity : When you want to get rid of your dog, just say that it has rabies.
as I said..you weren't missing anything
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 08:38:06 PM
perhaps you should look in the dictionary under d for debate...you will find it doesn't include making petty comments to try and score points as you are doing on another thread...just makes you look more than a bit silly
LOL ...now for that you would have to look in the dictionary for Davel....under D that is btw
8(0(*
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 08:41:01 PM
I perhaps don't understand English. This is no crime afaik. The sentence in French was for SH, who understands French. Now to satisfy your curiosity : When you want to get rid of your dog, just say that it has rabies.
great saying! and kudos to you for not retaliatiating to stupidities.....
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 08:41:16 PM
If you watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg Here is what Eddie smells one second before he signals (http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg) IMO that is a pile of folded clothing. The red item in that pile is the small red t-shirt with aeroplanes "up up and away" design IMO. Can be seen more clearly by watching the video in full, and comparing with same t-shirt in the clothing video
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2013, 08:43:22 PM
No opinion on this forum is of any consequence and anyone who thinks they do is a fool. SY believe Maddie may still be alive...what does that say about the dogs alerts
as they thought Barry George guilty of murder.................................
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 08:45:38 PM
the man who boasts he is so highly educated and turns on people calling them uneducated and lacking intelligence fools and idiots when he has no idea of their level of education or intelligence...the man who is NEVER wrong and even when proven he is wont admit it......the word comes under D and that stands for the first letter of quite a few words and doctor isnt one of them....Second one is I....lets play hangman
8**8:/:
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2013, 08:48:09 PM
If you watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg Here is what Eddie smells one second before he signals (http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg) IMO that is a pile of folded clothing. The red item in that pile is the small red t-shirt with aeroplanes "up up and away" design IMO. Can be seen more clearly by watching the video in full, and comparing with same t-shirt in the clothing video
Oh
Ok
I got confused with control tower, plane text
Blimey! Not sure what to say....but..why did eddie pull cc out of the box
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 08:58:12 PM
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 09:11:05 PM
Excellent thread - It has made it clear IMO that Eddie never alerted to the toy. That is the final step of confirming that KM on evening of 3rd May discovered the child bedroom exactly as she described. The window and shutter were already opened, and the toy was on the bed. It was impossible to solve that room if Eddie signalled the toy. But he didn't KM is telling the scene 100% truthfully like it was IMO
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 09:11:30 PM
If anne had posted that in French you would have said it was brill
More peurile rubbish
No sausages or bacon or kebabs were in flat 5a
Eddie has never alerted to any such thing, not there, not ever.......
Even if he had....you would have to explain why the mccanns or anyone else had pork chops in their wardrobe or under their bed or behind the sofa etc etc etc @)(++(*
how many times does is have to spelt out? For you? Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent..ie dead body scent.....get it now? Good
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 09:29:22 PM
Eddie has never alerted to any such thing, not there, not ever.......
Even if he had....you would have to explain why the mccanns or anyone else had pork chops in their wardrobe or under their bed or behind the sofa etc etc etc @)(++(*
how many times does is have to spelt out? For you? Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent..ie dead body scent.....get it now? Good
Why is it that when I mention sausages you go mental...says it all really
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 09:30:30 PM
Only eddie was sniffing around alot around the area of the bin beforehand......more so than anywhere else......
isn't that one too many arounds
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 09:38:07 PM
In the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg IMO Eddie does not signal the toy. He signals this pile on top of cupboard (photo attached) IMO Thats what he sniffs immediately before signalling IMO.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 09:38:20 PM
yes p..for PORK sausages...am I getting a bit too close to the truth
OK the Mccanns hid their left over pork in their wardrobe, great stuff...case closed...... 8((()*/
wonder if they Pricked them before they cooked them.....and stored them in with their clothes LOL
as I said peurile, nonsensical, facts are different, you carry on dissing the dogs, you like everyone else who has even tried has failed miserably....and you know the answer why....dont you? Because they are a thorn in your side 8((()*/
You cant explain why they alerted therefore it remains up in the air................
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 09:41:52 PM
OK the Mccanns hid their left over pork in their wardrobe, great stuff...case closed...... 8((()*/
wonder if they Pricked them before they cooked them.....and stored them in with their clothes LOL
as I said peurile, nonsensical, facts are different, you carry on dissing the dogs, you like everyone else who has even tried has failed miserably....and you know the answer why....dont you? Because they are a thorn in your side 8((()*/
You cant explain why they alerted therefore it remains up in the air................
Of course I can explain why they alerted...cross contamination from the Portuguese police
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 09:42:02 PM
You might find goingto bed and reading your thesaurus more interesting than me, so off you go...have fun x
As it appears posters only want correct English on this site...shouldn't you have said than "I"..you may be claiming "than" as a preposition and claim the objective pronoun after is just fine...common usage is on your side but grammatically you are incorrect..
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Mr Gray on December 11, 2013, 09:55:13 PM
Sorry, I didnt understand that.....your second sentence
re the toy why sniff around it at all or the basket it was in or take it out? As opposed to other toys in the room
eta He only barks when hes SURE
IMO at some places in the house there may be thousands of compounds for the dog to sniff and eliminate, so just because he spends a slightly longer time, for example, around that plastic bin, or around the base of a patio door, or anywhere else, does not mean there is any detection of the scent he seeks there, IMO.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 10:05:21 PM
As it appears posters only want correct English on this site...shouldn't you have said than "I"..you may be claiming "than" as a preposition and claim the objective pronoun after is just fine...common usage is on your side but grammatically you are incorrect..
thats why i told you to read the thesaurus, obviously that or the dictionary or the yellow pages excites you, more than facts and reality,and ideas thatcadaver dogs react to lamp chops in peoples wardrobes etc.... have fun....sleep well
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 10:09:25 PM
IMO at some places in the house there may be thousands of compounds for the dog to sniff and eliminate, so just because he spends a slightly longer time, for example, around that plastic bin, or around the base of a patio door, or anywhere else, does not mean there is any detection of the scent he seeks there, IMO.
Oh I see what you mean but he is not trained to sniff any or all of a thousands of any compounds but a specific mix of certain ones....
ok so youthink he knocked the bin over by mistake, fair enough.....on the back burner.....I still cant fathom how you can see the childs t shirt in that photo
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 10:22:17 PM
Oh I see what you mean but he is not trained to sniff any or all of a thousands of any compounds but a specific mix of certain ones....
ok so youthink he knocked the bin over by mistake, fair enough.....on the back burner.....I still cant fathom how you can see the childs t shirt in that photo
Its the only logical solution. What Eddie signals in the villa video must be the same items as what he signals in the clothing video later that day.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 10:34:27 PM
Tiny things can make the difference between accurate investion and miscarraige of investigation. On the basis that Eddie signalled the toy, KM was effectively accused of lying when she said the toy was on the bed when she looked in the room. As it turns out, IMO Eddie did not signal the toy, as anyone can see in the video, he signalled accurately something on top of the cupboard. This makes a huge difference because it means that implied accusation against her was completely false.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 10:35:19 PM
Tiny things can make the difference between accurate investion and miscarraige of investigation. On the basis that Eddie signalled the toy, KM was effectively accused of lying when she said the toy was on the bed when she looked in the room.
Why?
Oh scrap that......I see, the dog would have alerted in the kids bedroom?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 11, 2013, 10:45:07 PM
Only if the red t shirt the gingham pants and white blouse were in that pile
Those three items were afterwards taken away IIRC in the box labelled "living area" (maybe I am wrong?) So where are those 3 items in the villa video of the living area? IMO a small red t-shirt and a white top are in that pile. You can even see a white detail IMO on the red item, and this fits the white plane of the design.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 11:15:58 PM
Those three items were afterwards taken away IIRC in the box labelled "living area" (maybe I am wrong?) So where are those 3 items in the villa video of the living area? IMO a small red t-shirt and a white top are in that pile. You can even see a white detail IMO on the red item, and this fits the white plane of the design.
You can see what you want to see if you look hard enough....no one except the handler can answer these questions,
Nite nite
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 12, 2013, 12:02:04 AM
On the basis that Eddie signalled the toy, KM was effectively accused of lying when she said the toy was on the bed when she looked in the room.
Where did you find that strange accusation and who made it ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 02:43:27 AM
For example in Mr A's book (which takes as fact that Eddie signalled the toy), Ch11 disbelieves that she found the toy on the bed, and the hypothesis of Ch16 implies that the toy would have been discovered in the lounge. P.S. It is the same in the files, which claim the toy was signalled, and the child room was not. (IMO the toy was not signalled, and she found the toy on the bed exactly as stated).
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: stephen25000 on December 12, 2013, 07:59:36 AM
For example in Mr A's book (which takes as fact that Eddie signalled the toy), Ch11 disbelieves that she found the toy on the bed, and the hypothesis of Ch16 implies that the toy would have been discovered in the lounge.
I don't find any of these suggestions in GA's book. The PJ found strange the position of the toy on the bed, not the fact the toy was on the bed. I wonder how the child could get or be taken out of the bed without that toy falling down. And if so why putting it again on the pillow ? They say the toy must have been in contact with a body. I don't think so, I think this toy's odour, like the car key, is cross contamination.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Anna on December 12, 2013, 12:52:35 PM
I don't find any of these suggestions in GA's book. The PJ found strange the position of the toy on the bed, not the fact the toy was on the bed. I wonder how the child could get or be taken out of the bed without that toy falling down. And if so why putting it again on the pillow ? They say the toy must have been in contact with a body. I don't think so, I think this toy's odour, like the car key, is cross contamination.
I agree Anne, that if any Cadaver scent, was found on these items it was cross contamination, which would also explain scent being found in the car.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2013, 01:25:59 PM
I'm not totally convinced that she was necessarily taken out of her bed. She might have got up to go to the loo, for example. I'm not aware that the PJ forensic people checked the bathroom, the kitchen, or the parents' bedroom.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 01:58:25 PM
(Changed post to use portuguese version of book) In A Verdade Da Mentira it says the toy is "on" the bentwood chair. "em cima de"
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 13, 2013, 09:56:39 PM
Eddie stands on back legs and sniffs left end of top surface of cupboard. He gets down and does not alert. He stands on back legs again and this time sniffs halfway along the top surface of cupboard. He sniffs directly at a pile, then he raises his nose slightly higher to sniff the pile again (to confirm?). He gets down and immediatly barks. What do all of you think is in this pile pointed to by Eddie's right paw? http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 13, 2013, 10:07:44 PM
Eddie stands on back legs and sniffs left end of top surface of cupboard. He gets down and does not alert. He stands on back legs again and this time sniffs halfway along the top surface of cupboard. He sniffs directly at a pile, then he raises his nose slightly higher to sniff the pile again (to confirm?). He gets down and immediatly barks. What do all of you think is in this pile pointed to by Eddie's right paw? http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg
Looks like an intray or a pile of papers, certainly not a bunch of pressed to oblivion clothes....to me, anyway..is this the pile you were talking about yesterday?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 13, 2013, 10:19:22 PM
The lower items in pile could be clothes IMO but I might be wrong. This pile or something near it on top of the cupboard is the last thing Eddie sniffs before he barks. Are the vehicle keys away from the house at this time?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 13, 2013, 11:16:19 PM
The lower items in pile could be clothes IMO but I might be wrong. This pile or something near it on top of the cupboard is the last thing Eddie sniffs before he barks. Are the vehicle keys away from the house at this time?
IIRC Gery drove out that evening, I will have to findthe back up tomorrow....sti,, I dint think theres any clothes where you see them
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 14, 2013, 06:42:11 PM
Red book and papers. (http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7629/sd62.jpg)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 14, 2013, 11:49:51 PM
After Eddies search the clothes etc in the living area were individually photographed on a sheet on the villa tiled floor and packed in a box. Each pile of clothes preserves its order (top down) in the photos because thats how they photographed them, top item first. You can start with the the pillows on the table thats the easiest, then find the other items. The pile Eddie sniffs contains going from top downwards (see photo immediately above this post) : a printed sheet of white A4 paper (possibly search documentation) grey cloth item white cloth item red cloth item with white design detail visible white cloth item white cloth item Those 5 cloth items in the pile match exactly the first five clothing photos, in the same order. (There are more piles of ironed folded clothing on that surface you can work out too)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2013, 12:24:48 AM
Eddie stands on back legs and sniffs left end of top surface of cupboard. He gets down and does not alert. He stands on back legs again and this time sniffs halfway along the top surface of cupboard. He sniffs directly at a pile, then he raises his nose slightly higher to sniff the pile again (to confirm?). He gets down and immediatly barks. What do all of you think is in this pile pointed to by Eddie's right paw? http://i.imgur.com/597EM34.jpg
If Levy got his name out of the way, it might be easier to see.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 15, 2013, 12:37:30 AM
If Levy got his name out of the way, it might be easier to see.
Agreed his name blocks the pile sometimes, but he did a good service by releasing these videos, and elsewere in same video are unobscured shots. BTW psychologically the one sheet of paper on top conditions the mind to assume the whole pile is paperwork. Tricked me at first. But its only the top item is paper, probably police paperwork, the rest is clothing. Meticulous attention to detail will solve this case as neatly as a pile of freshly ironed and folded laundry. My great grandfather probably would have gone further and said "My Dear Watson, its clear that the person who did the ironing played pat-a-cake as a child" (as each folded item is stacked at right angles to the item beneath) 8(0(*.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 15, 2013, 01:30:25 AM
The still is pretty crap. Watch the footage, there's no clothes on top of the cabinet/sideboard. That red book/diary is clear as the blue sky. It's not that red plane top. The scent of CC was coming though the top of the open doors. Why do people overcomplicate things that are simple. Crimes of the moment are committed with simplicity not with pre-planning of how to fool the whole world.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Serendipity on December 16, 2013, 11:47:54 AM
Mr Grime must have had a reason to do the second test with it hidden....in the cupboard....fact remains its in his report....that the dog reacted to it...he was the handler, he will know what his dog does and doesnt do cant or cant do.... If want to think he made it all up, well, thats their view.....
You are absolutely right RedBlossom. Martin Grime did have a good reason for doing the second test with cuddle cat hidden in the cupboard ....
I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:
"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."
"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."
Full article:
About 6 on a cold clear morning one bright-eyed German shepherd and about a dozen other members of the Los Angeles County coroner's skeletal recovery team gather for a Wednesday briefing.
The previous afternoon, a dog walker had discovered two of her charges playing with a human head in a plastic bag near a trail below the Hollywood sign in Bronson Canyon Park.
Police had performed a preliminary search of the rugged Hollywood Hills terrain, but they weren't sure whether more body parts might be found; coyotes could have scattered the remains over miles of parkland.
Indiana Bones to the rescue.
An 8-year-old German shepherd, Indy is one of the nation’s few cadaver dogs retained full-time by county law enforcement. On the staff for six-and-a-half years, she has been on hundreds of searches for human remains. And has honed her skills on the job.
“She’s saved us here,” says handler and coroner Investigator Renee Grand Pre. “Lots of times you get that call from police that someone is missing. ...Where do you start?”
On this particular morning, Grand Pre takes out a tightly knit brown stick-like toy and the revved up, 75-pound Indy lunges out of the truck. “Site,” Grand Pre commands, speaking to Indy in her native Dutch. Indy pushes her hind legs down, gazing up toward the toy in rapture.
“Sook,” Grand Pre orders, pretending to throw the toy forward, stuffing it in her back pocket, as Indy gets to work, busily sniffing the ground, ears up and back against her head.
After a few brief forays into steep vegetation and some animal trails, Indy tries to lie on a slope and stares at a hole in the ground. After only 20 minutes, she has found the hole within which investigators will later discover two feet and a hand.
The team, which consists of a criminologist, anthropologist and several coroner’s investigators, comb the area and discover a severed hand about 100 yards away.
Investigators believe the body parts were all placed in the hole that Indy found, and were scattered by animals.
Cadaver dogs are not easy to obtain. But if anyone could get one for the department, it is Grand Pre.
At 51, Grand Pre is a compact, fit woman with dirty blond hair and slightly clinical demeanor. She has been with the coroner’s office for 11 years and in addition to being a trained nurse and investigator, she is also the acting department emergency coordinator and the weapons of mass destruction team leader. She balances these responsibilities with duties to the National Guard and working with Indy.
In 2004, Grand Pre stumbled upon a line item for a canine in the department’s homeland security grant budget. Until then only volunteers had worked with them, and then only on non-crime-scene investigations. She wrote a letter to the state outlining why a large-scale disaster response required a cadaver dog on staff that could identify and locate human bodies.
About $10,000 in federal money was set aside for Indy’s purchase and training; the coroner's office provides about $1,000 annually for food, toys and vet visits.
"In my mind, that [also] makes her a federal resource," Grand Pre said. And these days, Indy can get busy. She is often called upon by agencies such as the L.A. County Sheriff’s Department or LAPD homicide investigators to help hunt for a possible body. "You’re not going to dig up the person’s whole backyard. The dog is one more tool."
Most detector dogs are bred in Europe, where there is a greater market for German shepherds, and then sent over to the United States. Indy is an import from Holland. In the summer of 2005, Grand Pre flew to Peru, Ind., just outside Indianapolis, to pick up Indy from a kennel where dogs are primarily trained to detect bombs.
Working dogs have certain natural characteristics, such as a strong drive to hunt and play, which is nurtured, and focused on certain tasks. At 1-and-a-half years old, they are "imprinted," or introduced to and trained to recognize the odor that they will spend a good part of their lives seeking.
"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."
Taphonomy, or the study of how a human body decomposes, is not easily mastered. For example, a hand can feature a different level of decomposition and discoloration on each finger. A decomposing human body gives off a distinctly tangy, sweet but putrid rotting stench that is nearly as difficult to describe as it is to forget.
For Indy, the ability to tell the difference between animal bones and human bones is somewhat equivalent to a person’s ability to walk into the kitchen and know whether chicken or turkey is cooking.
To train them, the kennel used a box with a hole through which a tennis ball pops out after the dog "alerts" to the odor emanating from within.
When Indy recognizes the odor of a decomposing human body, she sits or lies down, staring at the spot. It is the same passive alert most bomb dogs have because handlers do not want them disturbing the scene. In Indy’s case, a wagging tail or digging alert could wreak havoc on a crime scene and damage bones.
The Indy of today is starkly different from the one that came home with Grand Pre from the kennel six years ago. That Indy was more "machine-like" than "dog-like," Grand Pre says. And though Indy still leads a regimented life — "eats once in the morning and once at night, poops once in the morning and once at night" — she no longer pees on command.
The discipline comes in handy, for example, when the pair had to search trash cans for possible body parts Wednesday. A lot of the waste included leftover food that would distract most dogs. Indy keeps her focus.
Indy was originally named Toby after her “T Litter.” And though you’re not supposed to change their names, Grand Pre did a small shift — calling her Indy, since she picked her up in Indiana. After a phone conversation with a friend, she decided her full name should aptly be Indiana Bones. And that’s the name on her dog tag.
The roughly dozen old Army barracks on a cul-de-sac at Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base are a perfect training location for Katrina-esque levels of calamity: unkempt, rickety apartments abandoned and ignored, with peeling blue paint, broken glass and scattered animal feces and dirt. Weeds sprout everywhere. This is one spot where Indy works out.
In the back of Grand Pre’s truck is a black case that holds four specimen jars, each filled with a different "training aid" that she switches to accustom Indy to identifying the smell of human decomposition. These include dried blood, a small bit of brain tissue and congealed human body fat.
The coroner’s law allows for the use of human body parts for training and educational purposes. But even so, the office is very careful about using bones, which can be linked to individuals if they are lost.
Indy and Grand Pre train four to eight hours a week. A session starts with obedience. “Site,” Grand Pre says, turning and walking away from Indy, glancing back every few step to make sure she doesn’t move. When Indy’s about 20 feet away, Grand Pre tells her to “komen.” Indy runs forward. Grand Pre stops her — “site” — and Indy responds with precision.
Indy’s Dutch vocabulary is minimal, but key. A handful of words have been used to train her since she was a pup: “Sook” means “seek” or “search,” “bliven” means “stay,” “auf” means “off” or “lie down,” “louss” means “loose,” “komen” means “come,” and “site” means “sit.”
Training includes hidden problem sets placed around and within different apartments that all look alike. “Luckily, if I forget where they are, she can find them,” Grand Pre says. She’s had make the problems more creative as Indy has gained experience over the years.
Indy is now a pro, with more than six years of experience and a resume that includes a variety of investigation scenarios: homicide, missing persons, suicide followups, wilderness and backyard searches, among others.
“If somebody is missing...when you find them, you find their remains and it brings closure to the family, it gives them a final wrap-up,” Grand Pre says. “For police investigations, it can be critical to the case.”
But Indy, at 8-years-old, is also getting older, and does not yet have a successor. On average, a working dog's life span is eight to 10 years, Grand Pre says, but Indy isn't involved in some of the rougher patrol jobs those figures take into account.
The department has been trying to find another dog, but a price tag of up to $8,000 is difficult to fulfill during tough times. With a lead time of roughly a year to gain real on-the-job experience, Grand Pre says, the department really needs to get that second dog.
The program has "been successful, and if it's going to continue to be successful, we need to have the resources available to continue to grow," Grand Pre says. "I'll use Indy as long as she's healthy and able to go out. It's hard to say [how long], but she's very, very healthy
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on December 16, 2013, 11:53:20 AM
"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."
Full article:
About 6 on a cold clear morning one bright-eyed German shepherd and about a dozen other members of the Los Angeles County coroner's skeletal recovery team gather for a Wednesday briefing.
The previous afternoon, a dog walker had discovered two of her charges playing with a human head in a plastic bag near a trail below the Hollywood sign in Bronson Canyon Park.
Police had performed a preliminary search of the rugged Hollywood Hills terrain, but they weren't sure whether more body parts might be found; coyotes could have scattered the remains over miles of parkland.
Indiana Bones to the rescue.
An 8-year-old German shepherd, Indy is one of the nation’s few cadaver dogs retained full-time by county law enforcement. On the staff for six-and-a-half years, she has been on hundreds of searches for human remains. And has honed her skills on the job.
“She’s saved us here,” says handler and coroner Investigator Renee Grand Pre. “Lots of times you get that call from police that someone is missing. ...Where do you start?”
On this particular morning, Grand Pre takes out a tightly knit brown stick-like toy and the revved up, 75-pound Indy lunges out of the truck. “Site,” Grand Pre commands, speaking to Indy in her native Dutch. Indy pushes her hind legs down, gazing up toward the toy in rapture.
“Sook,” Grand Pre orders, pretending to throw the toy forward, stuffing it in her back pocket, as Indy gets to work, busily sniffing the ground, ears up and back against her head.
After a few brief forays into steep vegetation and some animal trails, Indy tries to lie on a slope and stares at a hole in the ground. After only 20 minutes, she has found the hole within which investigators will later discover two feet and a hand.
The team, which consists of a criminologist, anthropologist and several coroner’s investigators, comb the area and discover a severed hand about 100 yards away.
Investigators believe the body parts were all placed in the hole that Indy found, and were scattered by animals.
Cadaver dogs are not easy to obtain. But if anyone could get one for the department, it is Grand Pre.
At 51, Grand Pre is a compact, fit woman with dirty blond hair and slightly clinical demeanor. She has been with the coroner’s office for 11 years and in addition to being a trained nurse and investigator, she is also the acting department emergency coordinator and the weapons of mass destruction team leader. She balances these responsibilities with duties to the National Guard and working with Indy.
In 2004, Grand Pre stumbled upon a line item for a canine in the department’s homeland security grant budget. Until then only volunteers had worked with them, and then only on non-crime-scene investigations. She wrote a letter to the state outlining why a large-scale disaster response required a cadaver dog on staff that could identify and locate human bodies.
About $10,000 in federal money was set aside for Indy’s purchase and training; the coroner's office provides about $1,000 annually for food, toys and vet visits.
"In my mind, that [also] makes her a federal resource," Grand Pre said. And these days, Indy can get busy. She is often called upon by agencies such as the L.A. County Sheriff’s Department or LAPD homicide investigators to help hunt for a possible body. "You’re not going to dig up the person’s whole backyard. The dog is one more tool."
Most detector dogs are bred in Europe, where there is a greater market for German shepherds, and then sent over to the United States. Indy is an import from Holland. In the summer of 2005, Grand Pre flew to Peru, Ind., just outside Indianapolis, to pick up Indy from a kennel where dogs are primarily trained to detect bombs.
Working dogs have certain natural characteristics, such as a strong drive to hunt and play, which is nurtured, and focused on certain tasks. At 1-and-a-half years old, they are "imprinted," or introduced to and trained to recognize the odor that they will spend a good part of their lives seeking.
"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."
Taphonomy, or the study of how a human body decomposes, is not easily mastered. For example, a hand can feature a different level of decomposition and discoloration on each finger. A decomposing human body gives off a distinctly tangy, sweet but putrid rotting stench that is nearly as difficult to describe as it is to forget.
For Indy, the ability to tell the difference between animal bones and human bones is somewhat equivalent to a person’s ability to walk into the kitchen and know whether chicken or turkey is cooking.
To train them, the kennel used a box with a hole through which a tennis ball pops out after the dog "alerts" to the odor emanating from within.
When Indy recognizes the odor of a decomposing human body, she sits or lies down, staring at the spot. It is the same passive alert most bomb dogs have because handlers do not want them disturbing the scene. In Indy’s case, a wagging tail or digging alert could wreak havoc on a crime scene and damage bones.
The Indy of today is starkly different from the one that came home with Grand Pre from the kennel six years ago. That Indy was more "machine-like" than "dog-like," Grand Pre says. And though Indy still leads a regimented life — "eats once in the morning and once at night, poops once in the morning and once at night" — she no longer pees on command.
The discipline comes in handy, for example, when the pair had to search trash cans for possible body parts Wednesday. A lot of the waste included leftover food that would distract most dogs. Indy keeps her focus.
Indy was originally named Toby after her “T Litter.” And though you’re not supposed to change their names, Grand Pre did a small shift — calling her Indy, since she picked her up in Indiana. After a phone conversation with a friend, she decided her full name should aptly be Indiana Bones. And that’s the name on her dog tag.
The roughly dozen old Army barracks on a cul-de-sac at Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base are a perfect training location for Katrina-esque levels of calamity: unkempt, rickety apartments abandoned and ignored, with peeling blue paint, broken glass and scattered animal feces and dirt. Weeds sprout everywhere. This is one spot where Indy works out.
In the back of Grand Pre’s truck is a black case that holds four specimen jars, each filled with a different "training aid" that she switches to accustom Indy to identifying the smell of human decomposition. These include dried blood, a small bit of brain tissue and congealed human body fat.
The coroner’s law allows for the use of human body parts for training and educational purposes. But even so, the office is very careful about using bones, which can be linked to individuals if they are lost.
Indy and Grand Pre train four to eight hours a week. A session starts with obedience. “Site,” Grand Pre says, turning and walking away from Indy, glancing back every few step to make sure she doesn’t move. When Indy’s about 20 feet away, Grand Pre tells her to “komen.” Indy runs forward. Grand Pre stops her — “site” — and Indy responds with precision.
Indy’s Dutch vocabulary is minimal, but key. A handful of words have been used to train her since she was a pup: “Sook” means “seek” or “search,” “bliven” means “stay,” “auf” means “off” or “lie down,” “louss” means “loose,” “komen” means “come,” and “site” means “sit.”
Training includes hidden problem sets placed around and within different apartments that all look alike. “Luckily, if I forget where they are, she can find them,” Grand Pre says. She’s had make the problems more creative as Indy has gained experience over the years.
Indy is now a pro, with more than six years of experience and a resume that includes a variety of investigation scenarios: homicide, missing persons, suicide followups, wilderness and backyard searches, among others.
“If somebody is missing...when you find them, you find their remains and it brings closure to the family, it gives them a final wrap-up,” Grand Pre says. “For police investigations, it can be critical to the case.”
But Indy, at 8-years-old, is also getting older, and does not yet have a successor. On average, a working dog's life span is eight to 10 years, Grand Pre says, but Indy isn't involved in some of the rougher patrol jobs those figures take into account.
The department has been trying to find another dog, but a price tag of up to $8,000 is difficult to fulfill during tough times. With a lead time of roughly a year to gain real on-the-job experience, Grand Pre says, the department really needs to get that second dog.
The program has "been successful, and if it's going to continue to be successful, we need to have the resources available to continue to grow," Grand Pre says. "I'll use Indy as long as she's healthy and able to go out. It's hard to say [how long], but she's very, very healthy
I would think the most likely explanation of why he hid the toy in the cupboard is that he was thoroughly embarrassed that the dog had physically played with the toy (particularly without reacting to it) and wanted to be sure that there would be no repeat.
I imagine Grime must have wanted the ground to swallow him up when Eddie started barking all round the cupboard.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Serendipity on December 16, 2013, 11:58:48 AM
I would think the most likely explanation of why he hid the toy in the cupboard is that he was thoroughly embarrassed that the dog had physically played with the toy (particularly without reacting to it) and wanted to be sure that there would be no repeat.
I imagine Grime must have wanted the ground to swallow him up when Eddie started barking all round the cupboard.
Absolute tosh lol You just can't face the fact that Eddie alerted. You have been given an explanation from the horses mouth which makes perfect sense to anyone with an ounce of intelligence, so please stop clutching at straws. :) Catch you later maybe, I'm away to have some lunch :)
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 16, 2013, 01:08:28 PM
After the villa search, was the toy tested by Eddie at the gym?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on December 16, 2013, 01:10:10 PM
After the villa search, was the toy tested by Eddie at the gym?
That's not recorded.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 16, 2013, 04:41:03 PM
Here is the toy alert as described in "A Verdade Da Mentira", please refer to pages 171-172 for the complete text. "....... a canideo dirigiu-se à sala, onde em cima de um cadeirão de verga se encontrava o pequeno peluche cor-de-rosa ....... com um determinante e afirmativo latido, indicou que aquele peluche ......."
And a provisional translation "....... the dog went to the lounge where upon a bentwood chair was the little pink soft toy ....... with a decisive and assertive bark, indicated that soft toy ......."
Does anyone know if this is a first-hand account?
P.S. "cima" means "on" or "upon" the chair. Is it possible there a bit of video missing in which the toy is on a chair?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2013, 05:08:48 PM
(Content snipped.) Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
(Content snipped.) Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
(Content snipped.) Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
So, he wasn't taught any "tricks", but just reverted to puppy mode?
He certainly wasn't doing what he'd been trained to do. Neither was he when he got very excited about what under a bed and kept going back to sniff round the base of it. It turned out to be foodstuff under the bed. Similarly with Keela(?) who excitedly kept returning to a corner next to a chest of drawers (or similar). That turned out to be a ball behind that furniture.
It would seem that the dogs don't just get excited by the scents they are trained to detect - 'excitement' which IIRC has been put forward in the past as proof that the scents they are trained to find are present.
The dogs are brilliant - but it is not the exact science that some people want it to be. imo.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Redblossom on December 16, 2013, 07:04:09 PM
He certainly wasn't doing what he'd been trained to do. Neither was he when he got very excited about what under a bed and kept going back to sniff round the base of it. It turned out to be foodstuff under the bed. Similarly with Keela(?) who excitedly kept returning to a corner next to a chest of drawers (or similar). That turned out to be a ball behind that furniture.
It would seem that the dogs don't just get excited by the scents they are trained to detect - 'excitement' which IIRC has been put forward in the past as proof that the scents they are trained to find are present.
The dogs are brilliant - but it is not the exact science that some people want it to be. imo.
Any links for that? Dogs getting interested in an area rightly or wrongly is not the same as showing a definite change of behaviour nited by the handler due to scenting what theyre trained for......
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 16, 2013, 07:54:51 PM
So during Eddie's search of villa, where in the living area were the red tshirt, the white sleeveless top, and the grey/white trousers, and why did Eddie not find them?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on December 17, 2013, 01:04:14 AM
Any links for that? Dogs getting interested in an area rightly or wrongly is not the same as showing a definite change of behaviour nited by the handler due to scenting what theyre trained for......
It's in one of the videos. At the end of the video Grime explains that food was found under a bed and a ball was found behind a piece of furniture saying that was why the dogs were so interested in those areas.
My point was that even when they are 'on duty' and in 'work mode', the dogs can still be distracted and behave like any other dogs would at certain times. Therefore a change in behaviour, such as the dogs getting excited, is not necessarily a sign that the scent they are trained to find is present.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 01:13:52 AM
It's in one of the videos. At the end of the video Grime explains that food was found under a bed and a ball was found behind a piece of furniture saying that was why the dogs were so interested in those areas.
Which video is that, please, Benice ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on December 17, 2013, 01:15:54 AM
So during Eddie's search of villa, where in the living area were the red tshirt, the white sleeveless top, and the grey/white trousers, and why did Eddie not find them?
A good question Pegasus. One would think in the confined space of a room, the scent would be far more easy to detect than in the large open space of a gym. Eddie could detect scent from a couple of feet underground - so should have had no trouble with several articles of clothing which may have been in drawers.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 01:22:18 AM
So during Eddie's search of villa, where in the living area were the red tshirt, the white sleeveless top, and the grey/white trousers, and why did Eddie not find them?
I guess it was usefull to determine which clothes, if any, weren't contaminated.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 18, 2013, 12:42:17 AM
A good question Pegasus. One would think in the confined space of a room, the scent would be far more easy to detect than in the large open space of a gym. Eddie could detect scent from a couple of feet underground - so should have had no trouble with several articles of clothing which may have been in drawers.
IMO Eddie signalled in the villa the same items he signalled later same day in the gym, they are in one of the several neat piles of ironed and folded clothes on top of the cupboard, and the exact pile is the pile he sniffs just before the first set of barking. IMO he does not bark at the air coming from inside the cupboard where the cat is. The second set of barking is more difficult to work out IMO because the table blocks the camera.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 02:47:18 PM
10:30 there's no piles of clothes on the cupboard. There were a couple of pillows on the table.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 18, 2013, 06:21:08 PM
Its only my opinion, that there are several piles of ironed clothing on the top of the cupboard, and it's possible I am wrong and all those piles are paperwork/books/folders. Taking the latter approach, it might be possible to go through the file photos which show individually each item from the living area box, and locate each item in the video of the living area. IMO the items signalled later in the gym came from the living area box and therefore were in the living area when Eddie searched the living area.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 06:31:00 PM
Eddie searched that part and didn't alert first time round. Eddie only alerted when CC was hidden in the cupboard as CC was the only item he marked in the villa so Grime did that 2nd test to confirm. That's my opinion.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 18, 2013, 07:13:56 PM
The second barking is difficult to understand for me. That table is in the way. I can't make head nor tail of it. Also interesting is that in his book Mr Amaral indicates (IMO and I might be wrong) that Eddie alerted to the toy when it was ON a chair. The portuguese word he uses is "cima" which in dictionaries seems always have the meaning "on" or "upon" and never means "near".
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 07:29:29 PM
Not sure I think Eddie is barking to say there's cadaver scent here in this area i.e. not at one particular spot. If Madeleine did come to any harm in that apartment then she may have had CC with her at the time. It was placed on her pillow neat and tidy when it was found like the bed sheet neatly folded back.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 07:33:10 PM
If Madeleine did come to any harm in that apartment then she may have had CC with her at the time. It was placed on her pillow neat and tidy when it was found like the bed sheet neatly folded back.
That would mean staging. Why ? Actually I don't think that Madeleine went to bed on that night.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 07:44:14 PM
I don't believe she went to bed either. Look at the state of the other bed Kate slept in the night before. Something may have happened from 6.30 to 7pm. Did Madeleine want to go to bed for an early night?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 09:19:40 PM
I don't believe she went to bed either. Look at the state of the other bed Kate slept in the night before. Something may have happened from 6.30 to 7pm. Did Madeleine want to go to bed for an early night?
I bet Madeleine didn't like at all to be put in bed at the same time as the twins.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 10:01:04 PM
Just what I thought. She was older so want to go to bed later.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Just what I thought. She was older so want to go to bed later.
It is the privilege of the oldest. At home she had half an hour bonus..
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 10:12:09 PM
Yesterday, after the daily routine, MADELEINE and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds, and he stresses put to bed, at 7.30 pm.(GM 4 May)
Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. (KM 4 May)
Same bed time?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 10:32:04 PM
Yesterday, after the daily routine, MADELEINE and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds, and he stresses put to bed, at 7.30 pm.(GM 4 May)
Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. (KM 4 May)
Same bed time?
Yes. I feel sorry for Madeleine. The Payne had the youngest in their bedroom, the eldest alone in the other bedroom. And Mrs Webster slept on the livingroom sofa...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 18, 2013, 10:57:42 PM
That would mean staging. Why ? Actually I don't think that Madeleine went to bed on that night.
It may be useful to consider the simple scenario that a child is awakened by a noise, goes to another room, leaving toy on bed. Now maybe everyone will say no no no a child will take the toy with?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 11:20:20 PM
There's not a single picture of Madeleine with this toy or another one. This little girl wasn't the teddy bear kind.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: drummer on December 18, 2013, 11:43:09 PM
Anne, how on earth do you know what type of child Madeleine is or what type of toy she likes? I imagine there are hundreds of pictures in the family album of Madeleine with her toys, teddies comforters etc.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 19, 2013, 12:38:52 AM
Anne, how on earth do you know what type of child Madeleine is or what type of toy she likes? I imagine there are hundreds of pictures in the family album of Madeleine with her toys, teddies comforters etc.
Imagine then ! I stick to facts : no picture with teddy bear and auntie JK's anecdotes. Ah, one of the rare things we know she said "be a monster!"
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on December 19, 2013, 01:56:40 AM
IMO the toy was not in photos months before, because it was not acquired yet
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on March 13, 2014, 01:58:15 PM
As far as cuddlecat or the soft toy is concerned I'm sure everyone has seen the video of what happened in the villa. Eddie pulled cuddlecat out of the toy box and shook him into the air.
True!
But that sequence (of Eddie literally playing with the toy, tossing it in the air etc) has been edited out of videos on line (at least that I know of) by Levy.
We can be sure it's true because Dias recorded the sequence in his written report.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 15, 2014, 12:53:05 PM
As far as cuddlecat or the soft toy is concerned I'm sure everyone has seen the video of what happened in the villa. Eddie pulled cuddlecat out of the toy box and shook him into the air.
True!
But that sequence (of Eddie literally playing with the toy, tossing it in the air etc) has been edited out of videos on line (at least that I know of) by Levy.
We can be sure it's true because Dias recorded the sequence in his written report.
Watch it Ferryman. The next thing will be that Dias' recorded report will be minus the sequence.
All sorts of things to do with this case are getting wiped out these days. The only way is to keep a hard copy of the full report and keep it somewhere safe. Maybe screen shots would work?
It is no good just keeping the web address of anything, because reports and images are being changed and somehow keeping the same web address. So sometimes when you enter the web address ... the altered version comes up, rather than the original you are refering to.
Spooky and very sinister.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on March 15, 2014, 01:21:53 PM
Watch it Ferryman. The next thing will be that Dias' recorded report will be minus the sequence.
All sorts of things to do with this case are getting wiped out these days. The only way is to keep a hard copy of the full report and keep it somewhere safe. Maybe screen shots would work?
It is no good just keeping the web address of anything, because reports and images are being changed and somehow keeping the same web address. So sometimes when you enter the web address ... the altered version comes up, rather than the original you are refering to.
Spooky and very sinister.
I've just checked and that's still there, Sadie.
On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'
The unedited version showed Eddie, literally, playing with the toy: biting it, picking it up and tossing it in the air.
A further question is why the hell any dog attending a crime scene would pick stuff up in its mouth (Eddie!) or trample all over stuff they are tasked to inspect (Eddie and Keela)
Grime himself says in his profile that best practice is to avoid giving a dog direct access to stuff it is tasked to inspect.
Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises
are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert
deployment.
Martin Grime.
There was no attempt to protect anything from contamination by the dog ...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 15, 2014, 10:47:05 PM
The unedited version showed Eddie, literally, playing with the toy: biting it, picking it up and tossing it in the air.
A further question is why the hell any dog attending a crime scene would pick stuff up in its mouth (Eddie!) or trample all over stuff they are tasked to inspect (Eddie and Keela)
Grime himself says in his profile that best practice is to avoid giving a dog direct access to stuff it is tasked to inspect.
Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises
are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert
deployment.
Martin Grime.
There was no attempt to protect anything from contamination by the dog ...
I remember the dog throwing cuddlecat up in the air too and generally playing with it.
Looks like it has been wiped out. I wonder why?
ETA Have done a search and I can no longer find the uneditted video
So yet again evidence wiped ?
Sinister, or what? ..................Hope someone can find the longer video.
If evidence keeps getting altered, Let's hope everyone is aware that it will be possible for any of us to get fitted up for any crime.
In this case the altering always seems to be against The Mccanns
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 01:44:03 AM
IMO Eddie's correct villa living area alert was misinterpreted (Eddie's alert was not to the toy) therefore the child woke and walked out of 5A north bedroom into another room leaving the toy behind on the bed.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on March 16, 2014, 08:28:34 AM
IMO Eddie's correct villa living area alert was misinterpreted (Eddie's alert was not to the toy) therefore the child woke and walked out of 5A north bedroom into another room leaving the toy behind on the bed.
'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Martin Grime.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on March 16, 2014, 08:50:27 AM
'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
Martin Grime.
It seems Grime's request was ignored. Cuddlecat was packed up with all the other items and taken to the Gym - where it was NOT alerted to and then returned to the McCanns the next day.
The claim in the report that the alert to CC in the villa was later confirmed at an outside venue is false. IMO Yet another attempt to create and promote 'evidence' against Kate McCann.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 10:06:01 AM
It seems Grime's request was ignored. Cuddlecat was packed up with all the other items and taken to the Gym - where it was NOT alerted to and then returned to the McCanns the next day.
The claim in the report that the alert to CC in the villa was later confirmed at an outside venue is false. IMO Yet another attempt to create and promote 'evidence' against Kate McCann.
But it was packed away with the clothing and taken to the Gym - where it was NOT alerted to.
It was returned... but I'm not sure that it actually went to the gym. The boxes of clothes, shoes, bags, etc., did, but there doesn't seem to be any indication about CC, the diaries, bible, etc., were inspected there unless I've missed it. CC could have been sniffed again in the grounds of the villa, I suppose.
08 Processos Vol VIII Page 2125
TRANSLATED BY INES VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2125
From: Inspector Joao Carlos
TERMS OF DELIVERY
On 3rd August 2007 in Praia da Luz, Gerlad McCann, resident in Rua das Flores 27 appeared before me Joao Carlos and Inspector Freitas according to written dispatch?and delivered the following:
1. One soft toy, made of pink coloured material, make Cuddle Cut with a wooden rosary and a green ribbon. 2. Four boxes containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags. 3. Two suitcases containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags. 4. One Bible. 5. Two diaries. 6. One note pad. 7. One pair of rubber gloves.
The present Terms of Delivery were elaborated and will be signed.
Signed
Gerald McCann
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on March 16, 2014, 10:22:03 AM
From the other thread: It was returned... but I'm not sure that it actually went to the gym. The boxes of clothes, shoes, bags, etc., did, but there doesn't seem to be any indication about CC, the diaries, bible, etc., were inspected there unless I've missed it. CC could have been sniffed again in the grounds of the villa, I suppose.
08 Processos Vol VIII Page 2125
TRANSLATED BY INES VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2125
From: Inspector Joao Carlos
TERMS OF DELIVERY
On 3rd August 2007 in Praia da Luz, Gerlad McCann, resident in Rua das Flores 27 appeared before me Joao Carlos and Inspector Freitas according to written dispatch?and delivered the following:
1. One soft toy, made of pink coloured material, make Cuddle Cut with a wooden rosary and a green ribbon. 2. Four boxes containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags. 3. Two suitcases containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags. 4. One Bible. 5. Two diaries. 6. One note pad. 7. One pair of rubber gloves.
The present Terms of Delivery were elaborated and will be signed.
Signed
Gerald McCann
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
I can't think of any reason why all the articles were not taken to the same place Carana - if the purpose of the exercise was to conduct testing by the dogs.
According to Kates book IIRC - all items were returned the following day. No mention of anything being retained.
Although I'm presuming it was during this time that the PJ copied her diary.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 10:34:01 AM
I can't think of any reason why all the articles were not taken to the same place Carana - if the purpose of the exercise was to conduct testing by the dogs.
According to Kates book IIRC - all items were returned the following day. No mention of anything being retained.
Although I'm presuming it was during this time that the PJ copied her diary.
Yes, the PJ did copy her diary, so some things may have not been opened in the gym or went straight to the PJ station and the whole lot returned together.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 11:01:22 AM
IMO Eddie's correct villa living area alert was misinterpreted (Eddie's alert was not to the toy) therefore the child woke and walked out of 5A north bedroom into another room leaving the toy behind on the bed.
I have no idea whether he alerted to the toy or not. I find it possible (as the PJ analysis team were also wondering), that he may have simply initially played with it in puppy mode, then was made to concentrate. However, even then, he alerted just after sniffing the top of the buffet and not when he'd been sniffing around the cupboard in which it was hidden before that.
Even if he did eventually alert to CC, IMO there's a perfectly feasible explanation: Kate had been carrying it around with her every day and had only washed it a few days before. It might have smelled of washing products to humans, but there may well have been a residual scent of decomposing sweat and skin cells in the permeable toy that might have triggered Eddie's response when commanded to concentrate. To the dog, it could easily still have been a residual scent of human decomp.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: ferryman on March 16, 2014, 11:27:36 AM
I have no idea whether he alerted to the toy or not. I find it possible (as the PJ analysis team were also wondering), that he may have simply initially played with it in puppy mode, then was made to concentrate. However, even then, he alerted just after sniffing the top of the buffet and not when he'd been sniffing around the cupboard in which it was hidden before that.
Even if he did eventually alert to CC, IMO there's a perfectly feasible explanation: Kate had been carrying it around with her every day and had only washed it a few days before. It might have smelled of washing products to humans, but there may well have been a residual scent of decomposing sweat and skin cells in the permeable toy that might have triggered Eddie's response when commanded to concentrate. To the dog, it could easily still have been a residual scent of human decomp.
Whatever scents were imbued in the brew would have been exactly the same after the toy was put in the cupboard as before.
Why wait until after the toy has been put in a cupboard before alerting?
Perhaps because he wanted his toy back?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 11:51:40 AM
Whatever scents were imbued in the brew would have been exactly the same after the toy was put in the cupboard as before.
Why wait until after the toy has been put in a cupboard before alerting?
Perhaps because he wanted his toy back?
That seems quite feasible. After his initial reaction to play with it, could the command to concentrate have been increased? For such a sensitive nose, there would surely have been human decomp VOCs of interest in that toy, due to decomposing sweat and skin cells.
He wanted the toy. The full "bouquet" is extremely unlikely to have been there anyway as few VOCs are released in the initial stages.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 02:37:03 PM
I have no idea whether he alerted to the toy or not. I find it possible (as the PJ analysis team were also wondering), that he may have simply initially played with it in puppy mode, then was made to concentrate. However, even then, he alerted just after sniffing the top of the buffet and not when he'd been sniffing around the cupboard in which it was hidden before that.
Even if he did eventually alert to CC, IMO there's a perfectly feasible explanation: Kate had been carrying it around with her every day and had only washed it a few days before. It might have smelled of washing products to humans, but there may well have been a residual scent of decomposing sweat and skin cells in the permeable toy that might have triggered Eddie's response when commanded to concentrate. To the dog, it could easily still have been a residual scent of human decomp.
As you know my opinion is that the cat was certainly never barked at by Eddie. But even if Eddie did bark atl the cat, I think it is illogical to assume that would be due to an adult handling the cat.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 16, 2014, 03:03:46 PM
Maybe there was a scent on the persons hands that handled Cuddlecat? Or a residual scent in the cupborad? Had the cupboard been checked before?
Do we KNOW that the video is assembled in the right order as well. The fact that certain parts have been omitted (ie The dog playing with cuddlecat and throwing it in ther air) makes me a little suspicious, I admit.
Haven't time atm to look at the video to check, must go out. Jobs to do.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 03:13:39 PM
Maybe there was a scent on the persons hands that handled Cuddlecat? Or a residual scent in the cupborad? Had the cupboard been checked before?
Do we KNOW that the video is assembled in the right order as well. The fact that certain parts have been omitted (ie The dog playing with cuddlecat and throwing it in ther air) makes me a little suspicious, I admit.
Haven't time atm to look at the video to check, must go out. Jobs to do.
The dog "throwing the toy in the air" as some describe it, is definitely in the video, it is not omitted. (And if you do watch the video, I recommend looking at exactly where the dog sniffs just before he barks).
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 05:53:19 PM
As you know my opinion is that the cat was certainly never barked at by Eddie. But even if Eddie did bark atl the cat, I think it is illogical to assume that would be due to an adult handling the cat.
If you mean the handlers on the day, I'd tend to agree.
However, I don't find it illogic * that he could have reacted to the residual scent of Kate carrying it around for months.
*Erm, that should have read illogical...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 06:19:19 PM
If you mean the handlers on the day, I'd tend to agree.
However, I don't find it illogic that he could have reacted to the residual scent of Kate carrying it around for months.
If the cat had been signalled, IMO it would not incriminate that witness at all, it would indicate contact with toy had occured evening 3 May without that witness's knowledge/presence.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 07:23:51 PM
If the cat had been signalled, IMO it would not incriminate that witness at all, it would indicate contact with toy had occured evening 3 May without that witness's knowledge/presence.
For the moment, I'm not sure that I follow what you're getting at there.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 07:28:57 PM
Based on careful studies of the villa lounge alert footage in dog video, and of the window footage in Mr Amaral's video. Here is a very basic hypothesis for now of only one room.
Wakes up, walks into another room, leaves toy on bed, reason for waking is shutter noise.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 08:21:17 PM
Based on careful studies of the villa lounge alert footage in dog video, and of the window footage in Mr Amaral's video. Here is a very basic hypothesis for now of only one room.
Wakes up, walks into another room, leaves toy on bed, reason for waking is shutter noise.
Ah. OK.
CC could easily be a red herring: alerting to it months later, when Kate had been holding it in her hand for at least some time nearly every day could explain the alert, if ever that was what he actually alerted to.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 09:48:24 PM
There are two alerts in villa video. First alert is just after sniffing a pile of items on TOP of sideboard. Second alert seems to be directed possibly at seat of a nearby bentwood dining chair but I can't see what if anything is on it.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 01:10:44 AM
Cuddle Cat was only a diversion. If there were any suspicious odours on the toy Eddie would have detected it the moment he pulled it out of the toy box.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 17, 2014, 01:37:51 AM
Cuddle Cat was only a diversion. If there were any suspicious odours on the toy Eddie would have detected it the moment he pulled it out of the toy box.
And of course you have a link to back up that statement...?
How on earth someone with zero EVRD experience can state definitively what Eddie signalled to and how by watching a heavily edited video beats me.
Especially a moderator who is SUPPOSED to be unbiased.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 02:12:22 AM
What is the real meaning, if Eddie did signal the cat? It would indicate that the child walked into another room carrying the cat, then later someone else returned the cat to the bed. IMO that is not what happened. Unnecessarily complicated.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 09:24:24 AM
I still love all this woofer stuff. FOUR threads now! It will go round for ever without coming to a proper conclusion.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 10:02:51 AM
The dog "throwing the toy in the air" as some describe it, is definitely in the video, it is not omitted. (And if you do watch the video, I recommend looking at exactly where the dog sniffs just before he barks).
Sorry this is a bit late Pegasus, but the throwing of the dog in the air, from my memory, is not what you see on the video. I remember cuddlecat sitting on the floor and the dog coming up to it, playing with it a bit and throwing it UP in the air. UP in the sense that a tennis payer throws the ball UP in the air rater than across.
Maybe others will remember this too. Seems Ferryman does.
This sequence has been removed from the video. Why?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 10:29:20 AM
Sorry this is a bit late Pegasus, but the throwing of the dog in the air, from my memory, is not what you see on the video. I remember cuddlecat sitting on the floor and the dog coming up to it, playing with it a bit and throwing it UP in the air. UP in the sense that a tennis payer throws the ball UP in the air rater than across.
Maybe others will remember this too. Seems Ferryman does.
This sequence has been removed from the video. Why?
The same reason the raw footage has been removed from public viewing.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Benice on March 17, 2014, 10:30:59 AM
Sorry this is a bit late Pegasus, but the throwing of the dog in the air, from my memory, is not what you see on the video. I remember cuddlecat sitting on the floor and the dog coming up to it, playing with it a bit and throwing it UP in the air. UP in the sense that a tennis payer throws the ball UP in the air rater than across.
Maybe others will remember this too. Seems Ferryman does.
This sequence has been removed from the video. Why?
There is also nothing in the video to show who placed CC in the cupboard - or to explain the reasons why that was done with an item which Eddie had already inspected and passed by several times but did NOT alert to - when the same procedure wasn't followed with any other items he didn't alert to.
He barked immediately after sniffing the articles on top of the cupboard - so why were they not individually isolated for further testing.?
The fact that wasn't done makes the test appear biased IMO.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 10:38:17 AM
There is also nothing in the video to show who placed CC in the cupboard - or to explain the reasons why that was done with an item which Eddie had already inspected and passed by several times but did NOT alert to - when the same procedure wasn't followed with any other items he didn't alert to. He barked immediately after sniffing the articles on top of the cupboard - so why were they not individually isolated for further testing.?
The fact that wasn't done makes the test appear biased IMO.
Very good point, Benice.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 10:40:30 AM
What I find amazing is that adults (I presume you are all adults, expected to be decent and accountable) try to destroy every single evidence against the McCann.
In most of the world CHILDREN are above all. If you fail them you deserve to be punished. These people are more worried about a couple of neglectful (at the least) parents than with anything else.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 10:51:25 AM
There are two alerts in villa video. First alert is just after sniffing a pile of items on TOP of sideboard. Second alert seems to be directed possibly at seat of a nearby bentwood dining chair but I can't see what if anything is on it.
In a previous post Pegasus, you thought that the pile of items was a pile of clothes .... and to begin with I did too. I thought it was a pile of neatly folded ironing, but then I noticed that it appeared to be adjacent to the sink. Then I thought what woman would leave her carefully ironed clothes adjacent to splashing water? Certainly not Kate, she would think before putting it down there
I enlarged the image x 4 (View... zoom .... across into new box that comes up ... and click on 400) and played the video over and over. Checking .. checking .. checking
1. You are quite right, the dog did NOT alert to cuddlecat, he had a good sniff near cuddlecat twice without any reaction. As you say, he reacted to that pile on the counter.
2. I had to look closely and my eyes are not so good these days but I am pretty confident that it is not clothes but a small pile of loose leaf folders with a loose sheet of paper on top.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg
See for yourselves:
3.41 nose sniffing BTM of cupboard, close to CCat ... no reaction
3.52 nose sniffing BTM of cupboard, close to CCat ... no reaction
4.05 sniffs along counter and comes to the small pile of folders. Immediately alerts. Watch the next bit as Grime gets CCat out of the BOTTOM of the cupboard and attributes the alert to CCat !
4'51 See the pile of loose leaf folders with loose sheet of paper on top. Stop the video and have a close look, check I am right please.
From the visual evidence outlined, it seems obvious that Grime is wrong in attributing the alert to CCat.
The questions in my mind
1. Would Gerry or kate have left any folders adjacent to the tap? I think not. Both have exhibited very orderly minds. To achieve the levels they have in their careers. as well as intellect and determination, order was necessary.
2. Who would leave a pile of folders and a sheet of paper there, by a tap?
So just who did the folders with the cadaver / urine/ etc. scent belong to? How come they were carrying the scent of cadavar (or urine or .... etc) ?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 10:53:14 AM
There is also nothing in the video to show who placed CC in the cupboard - or to explain the reasons why that was done with an item which Eddie had already inspected and passed by several times but did NOT alert to - when the same procedure wasn't followed with any other items he didn't alert to.
He barked immediately after sniffing the articles on top of the cupboard - so why were they not individually isolated for further testing.?
The fact that wasn't done makes the test appear biased IMO.
Obviously Cuddle Cat was put inside the cupboard so that Eddie would find it. And find it he did...just like a game of hide n seek. After all he had just played with it minutes before! Good doggie Eddie!
@)(++(*
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Serendipity on March 17, 2014, 11:03:24 AM
Maybe all Eddie scented was odours coming from underneath the kitchen sink. Cuddle Cat was only a diversion. If there were any suspicious odours on the toy Eddie would have detected it the moment he pulled it out of the toy box.
How many more times do I have to post this before it sinks in with people here?
Eddie was not wrong re cuddle cat.
The reason Martin put cuddle cat in the cupboard is explained below.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 11:07:40 AM
From the visual evidence outlined, it seems obvious that Grime is wrong in attributing the alert to CCat.
See post 342 324 above outlining reasons for this statement
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 11:48:27 AM
There is no tap on the living area sideboard. There are two alerts. Alert 1 is to scent on top surface of sideboard (imo most likely a pile which contains about 5 folded clothing items with one A4 sheet of paperwork on top). Alert 2 appears to be maybe to something on seat of dining chair?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 12:33:09 PM
There is no tap on the living area sideboard. There are two alerts. Alert 1 is to scent on top surface of sideboard (imo most likely a pile which contains about 5 folded clothing items with one A4 sheet of paperwork on top). Alert 2 appears to be maybe to something on seat of dining chair?
I thought that it looked like a tap immediately behind the pile, Pegasus @ 4.51 approx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qG21K6XJRg
And according to my eyes, the pile certainly aint clothes. Enlarge it x 4 (or more if you are able) and have a close look.
Whose folders /papers are they? And what is the sheet on top? Whose is that? Those are the interesting questions, cos as you rightly pointed out the dog is NOT alerting to CCat. Grime was mistaken in thinking that.
Unless there is a longer video, (which there must be, cos the bit with the dog throwing CCat straight up in the air is missing), we shall never know.
But Kate and Gerry will know and so probably will SY. That is what is important.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 12:49:52 PM
Video of total time 1h 37m 50s includes both alerts in living area of villa (two seperate periods of barking).
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 01:04:56 PM
That's interesting. I haven't got the time to look thru a long video atm tho Pegasus ... shame but Real life makes its demands
Could you post the video up., please, as a reference if nothing else. Maybe someone else could have a good look at it and see
1) if CCat gets thrown straight up into the air and played with? 2) Where the papers came from? ...... if they are indeed papers and folders. Were they there all the time? ... or did someone carry them in ?
One thing is certain, Grime was mistaken, the dog did not alert to Ccat, but to something on that counter.
So the myth that CCat proves Madeleine died in 5A is blown straight out of the window. Well spotted Pegasus 8@??)(
Another Myth bites the dust.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 01:10:50 PM
That's interesting. I haven't got the time to look thru a long video atm tho Pegasus ... shame but Real life makes its demands
Could you post the video up., please, as a reference if nothing else. Maybe someone else could have a good look at it and see
1) if CCat gets thrown straight up into the air and played with? 2) Where the papers came from? ...... if they are indeed papers and folders. Were they there all the time? ... or did someone carry them in ?
One thing is certain, Grime was mistaken, the dog did not alert to Ccat, but to something on that counter.
So the myth that CCat proves Madeleine died in 5A is blown straight out of the window. Well spotted Pegasus 8@??)(
Another Myth bites the dust.
So far so good. Now explain away the alert to the counter or something on it?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 01:55:49 PM
And of course you have a link to back up that statement...?
How on earth someone with zero EVRD experience can state definitively what Eddie signalled to and how by watching a heavily edited video beats me.
Especially a moderator who is SUPPOSED to be unbiased.
A link? Why on earth would I need a link? I have been working with dogs longer than Mr Grime, I know how they react to scent when trained. There was no scent on Cuddle Cat which Eddie was interested in.
As far as being unbiased is concerned, I have a strong bias against falsehoods.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 02:03:41 PM
So far so good. Now explain away the alert to the counter or something on it?
Weeks afterwards in another place entirely?
Are you suggesting that Madeleines body was in that villa?
The interesting thing would be to know who those folders and the sheet of paper, collectively or seperately, belonged to.
Even then ... did Keela check everything ? ... cos, if not, the most likely meaning of the alert is blood
If, however, Keela checked and found nothing then the possibilities are Cadavar odour, or bodily fluids such as urine, a tiny spot of spit etc. Could be anything and without something tangiable, it is unsound to think otherwise
Nothing conclusive can be found from that scenario with Eddie alerting to Ccat the papers piled up on the counter, or as you say, possibly the counter Folders, sitting there, ... and a sheet of paper, but whose were they? Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Anna on March 17, 2014, 02:16:42 PM
Are you suggesting that Madeleines body was in that villa?
The interesting thing would be to know who those folders and the sheet of paper, collectively or seperately, belonged to.
Even then ... did Keela check everything ? ... cos, if not, the most likely meaning of the alert is blood
If, however, Keela checked and found nothing then the possibilities are Cadavar odour, or bodily fluids such as urine, a tiny spot of spit etc. Could be anything and without something tangiable, it is unsound to think otherwise
Nothing conclusive can be found from that scenario with Eddie alerting to Ccat the papers piled up on the counter, or as you say, possibly the counter Folders, sitting there, ... and a sheet of paper, but whose were they? Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat.
I believe there was a lot of folders paperwork left in the garage by the McCanns. A friend collected them Did you know that a cadaver dog was used in the Shannon Mathews case and detected cadaver even although she was alive sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work
Are you suggesting that Madeleines body was in that villa?
The interesting thing would be to know who those folders and the sheet of paper, collectively or seperately, belonged to.
Even then ... did Keela check everything ? ... cos, if not, the most likely meaning of the alert is blood
If, however, Keela checked and found nothing then the possibilities are Cadavar odour, or bodily fluids such as urine, a tiny spot of spit etc. Could be anything and without something tangiable, it is unsound to think otherwise
Nothing conclusive can be found from that scenario with Eddie alerting to Ccat the papers piled up on the counter, or as you say, possibly the counter Folders, sitting there, ... and a sheet of paper, but whose were they? Eddie was NOT alerting to Ccat.
I am not suggesting anything. I am just amazed at so much verbiage on EVRD and CSI dogs when you place no credence on their ability. Is that because "Gerry said" they were notoriously unreliable in the USA based on one example. Paraphrased again of course.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 02:29:50 PM
The items in the 26 forensic clothing photographs were all in the living area while Eddie searched the living area. Two white pillows with covers: Easy, on dining table. Two yellow pillowcases: Easy, on dining table. Now find, in the living area video, the plane tshirt.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 02:37:58 PM
...Did you know that a cadaver dog was used in the Shannon Mathews case and detected cadaver even although she was alive sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work
Interesting article. However please note it indicates that the signals by the cadaver dogs were all correct, and traced to actual deaths. And re secondhand furniture... The wardrobe in 5A south bedroom is fitted and likely to have been installed new not secondhand. There was certainly no secondhand furniture in the flowerbed nor on the climbing plant. The tiles on the lounge floor are likely to have been new when laid, not secondhand
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 02:49:27 PM
I am not suggesting anything. I am just amazed at so much verbiage on EVRD and CSI dogs when you place no credence on their ability. Is that because "Gerry said" they were notoriously unreliable in the USA based on one example. Paraphrased again of course.
I think they are pretty good actually, but not always correct as in the Sharon Matthews case outlined above by Anna.
I just think that care has to be taken over the interpretation of their alerts. They are NOT proof per se, that requires something tangiable and there aws nothing there. NOTHING.
Also Amaral appears NOT to have understood the meanings of the alerts ... unless he was being deliberately obtuse, of course, or worse only interested in proving his "theory".
If he just didn't understand, then I hope that he doesn't end up in jail on that count, but if he deliberately spun the meaning of the alerts for his own ends ... knowing it might have put innocent people in jail
....... then I will have little sympathy.
I do feel for a copper in jail tho.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Anna on March 17, 2014, 03:21:14 PM
I think they are pretty good actually, but not always correct as in the Sharon Matthews case outlined above by Anna.
I just think that care has to be taken over the interpretation of their alerts. They are NOT proof per se, that requires something tangiable and there aws nothing there. NOTHING.
Also Amaral appears NOT to have understood the meanings of the alerts ... unless he was being deliberately obtuse, of course, or worse only interested in proving his "theory".
If he just didn't understand, then I hope that he doesn't end up in jail on that count, but if he deliberately spun the meaning of the alerts for his own ends ... knowing it might have put innocent people in jail
....... then I will have little sympathy.
I do feel for a copper in jail tho.
I was trying to point out (with the article) that Cadaver scent can be transferred from anywhere. Can you honestly say that none of the contents of that Apt ever came in contact with a cadaver or transferred via a relative, or the laundry or workers of The club never came in contact with a cadaver and what about the surgical assistant who occupied the Apt after the McCanns left and also the bleeding incidents which would leave the scent of dried blood. The dog was tested using a cube of pork which had been soaked in petrol and set alight the dogs apparently alerted to cadaver........Pork spare ribs anyone? Too many Ifs. Just possibilities IMO.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 03:33:27 PM
IMO in villa the first alert is to a pile of clothing containing same items alerted to later in gym, not to the cat. The second alert I am not sure what it is to because I can't see what is on that dining chair.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 03:50:39 PM
A link? Why on earth would I need a link? I have been working with dogs longer than Mr Grime, I know how they react to scent when trained. There was no scent on Cuddle Cat which Eddie was interested in.
As far as being unbiased is concerned, I have a strong bias against falsehoods.
That's interesting, John. What type of dogs did you work with and where? What do you think about training techniques and potential errors?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 04:42:39 PM
Child wakes up and walks into another room leaving cat behind on bed. Anyone got a more convincing theory of first few seconds?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 07:28:05 PM
I think she was taken from her bed... and proabably drugged first.
How was she drugged?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 09:29:33 PM
Woke up and walked into another room? Or drugged while still in bed by stranger then carried into another room? IMO the first is 100 million times more likely than the second.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Anna on March 17, 2014, 09:33:44 PM
smell. IMO to solve the first part "how did child leave room" the obvious solution "woke up and walked/ran into another room" is by far the most likely.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Anna on March 17, 2014, 09:44:26 PM
smell. IMO to solve the first part "how did child leave room" the obvious solution "woke up and walked/ran into another room" is by far the most likely.
And then what?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: John on March 17, 2014, 09:58:36 PM
That's interesting, John. What type of dogs did you work with and where? What do you think about training techniques and potential errors?
Mostly with the larger breeds like German Shepherd, Border Collie and Labrador and in all sorts of environments. Training of a dog starts when it is a puppy, it is a relationship for the life of the dog. Impossible to generalise between dogs as every dog is different but an intelligent dog is a marvel. Dogs can have off days and playful days just like anyone else but a trainer learns over time how to discriminate between them. Eddie and Keela were in a league of their own and a huge asset to the police when they were in their prime.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 10:15:10 PM
Not all chloroform smells according IIRC to Eleanor. Eleanor doesn't get much wrong as many of you know.
Chloroform. That is the other reason that I kept forgetting as to why the window was left open. To get rid of the smell of the drugs used, whatever they were.
I think chloroform to begin with possibly followed by an injection, because the correct dose of chloroform would be difficult to guage for long term effect..
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 10:33:35 PM
. Not all chloroform smells according IIRC to Eleanor. Eleanor doesn't get much wrong as many of you know.
Chloroform. That is the other reason that I kept forgetting as to why the window was left open. To get rid of the smell of the drugs used, whatever they were.
I think chloroform to begin with possibly followed by an injection, because the correct dose of chloroform would be difficult to guage for long term effect..
Really need an anaesthetist...
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 10:42:08 PM
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 10:53:14 PM
If you hypothesise stranger drugging (which I certainly don't) the cat would be left on the bed. IMO a theory less complicated is : walks into another room leaving cat behind on bed.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
Many women stop work or switch to part time to have kids. Was the cat left behind on the bed? Was the cat in the sideboard signalled by Eddie? IMO yes to the first question and no to the second. What do you think?
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 03:57:34 PM
Mostly with the larger breeds like German Shepherd, Border Collie and Labrador and in all sorts of environments. Training of a dog starts when it is a puppy, it is a relationship for the life of the dog. Impossible to generalise between dogs as every dog is different but an intelligent dog is a marvel. Dogs can have off days and playful days just like anyone else but a trainer learns over time how to discriminate between them. Eddie and Keela were in a league of their own and a huge asset to the police when they were in their prime.
I adore dogs and I know how intelligent some are. I also know how they can be so attentive to any sign from mummy/daddy in attempts to please them that they can get confused. Or, pick up signals to try to hide away from bathtime, however you attempt to try to disguise the impending issue.
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 19, 2014, 03:31:20 AM
I adore dogs and I know how intelligent some are. I also know how they can be so attentive to any sign from mummy/daddy in attempts to please them that they can get confused. Or, pick up signals to try to hide away from bathtime, however you attempt to try to disguise the impending issue.
These are working dogs.
They were chosen from thousands because they showed particular skill.
Then they were trained, trained, trained, trained.
They are not a household pleaser being confused by different owners who want them to sit, stay, shut up, talk on command, roll over, all inexpertly taught in lackadaisical manner when folks think of it.
They are the racehorses of the dog world. Finely tuned, extremely valuable, able to perform at Olympian levels as routine. They are worked every single day with the same skilled master. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Any doubts of the value of these cadaver dogs should have been dispelled by the discovery of the Long Island Killing Fields but what ho - not in the Universe of the McCann!
Title: Re: The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie
Post by: pegasus on March 20, 2014, 02:23:36 AM
Does no-one else see two alerts in the villa video?