UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on May 07, 2013, 10:13:40 PM
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Why not report the abduction at the Tapas Bar rather than Main Reception?
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The broader alert (after Kate's )was first raised at the reception desk, wasn't it?
Whoever was on reception had probably never been in such a situation. Getting the staff alert going in case the child was found quickly, then calling the GNR.
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Let me point out to you
1) you don't know whether the TP9 ignored it or not.
2) if they are understood when asking red wine or roast beef or a salad, they will be also be when asking the staff what's the emergency number.
"when asking red wine or roast beef or a salad"
What did they ask them?
More seriously, can you not appreciate that the LOGICAL and NORMAL port of call in an emergency is the RECEPTION DESK of the hotel or complex in which you are staying.
Asking a waiter whose attention is not directed at such matters is not the correct procedure, nor will it necessarily bring you the best reaction as swiftly as dealing with the main reception would. It would not be totally surprising to find that such a waiter would have called the Reception himself for guidance, rather than calling the police directly.
Ocean Club Reception is 275 yards from the gate to the McCanns apartment via the paths in PDL.
That would take a fit man like Matthew Oldfield around one minute to jog.
Why would he not go to the Reception?
Admin note:
Distance from McCanns apartment to Main Reception is 250 mts by shortest route.
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The broader alert (after Kate's )was first raised at the reception desk, wasn't it?
Whoever was on reception had probably never been in such a situation. Getting the staff alert going in case the child was found quickly, then calling the GNR.
Tapas restaurant : 1 minute
Main reception : 8 minutes
asking and getting the emergency nb : 10 seconds
asking a receptionist to call the police : 25 minutes
How could an abducted child be found quickly since no one seems to have run in the direction indicated by Jane ?
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The broader alert (after Kate's )was first raised at the reception desk, wasn't it?
Whoever was on reception had probably never been in such a situation. Getting the staff alert going in case the child was found quickly, then calling the GNR.
Tapas restaurant : 1 minute
Main reception : 8 minutes
asking and getting the emergency nb : 10 seconds
asking a receptionist to call the police : 25 minutes
How could an abducted child be found quickly since no one seems to have run in the direction indicated by Jane ?
EIGHT MINUTES?
Where in heaven's name does that ridiculous figure come from?
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(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/rec_zpsbc855c14.jpg)
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Or for those whose slider bar is not working.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/rec790_zps9d7fd0f2.jpg)
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Could you please explain how you came to think it takes 8 minutes to go from Apt 5A to OC reception?
They did the LOGICAL and NATURAL thing and used the local experts who were fluent in English to assist them.
Those local experts being only ONE MINUTE AWAY.
It seems to me your entire observation on the matter is based on a completely false premise.
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Local experts were less than 1 minute away, at the Tapas restaurant, they had been asked beef, salad, wine, in English and would have given the emergency number easily.
Your google path to the main reception requires invading private property. I see you never visited PDL.
Anyhow Matthew wasn't as "silly" as you suppose : he took more time because he searched on the way, lots of bushes and actually different paths to get to the main reception (the entrance isn't where you indicated it).
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Local experts were less than 1 minute away, at the Tapas restaurant, they had been asked beef, salad, wine, in English and would have given the emergency number easily.
Your google path to the main reception requires invading private property. I see you never visited PDL.
Anyhow Matthew wasn't as "silly" as you suppose : he took more time because he searched on the way, lots of bushes and actually different paths to get to the main reception (the entrance isn't where you indicated it).
I do not believe you are correct about the private property but even so, in such an emergency...
Anyhow it matters little.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/Clip_131_zps737682f7.jpg)
A mere fifty metres further by MAIN ROAD. Still achievable for a fit man in a minute's jogging.
You have still to explain that LUDICROUS claim of yours that it takes EIGHT MINUTES to cover 330 yards.
That is a completely false premise on which you base your observation.
Please do indicate where reception is then. As that is the address and office given as the main reception by Ocean Club themselves.
Incidentally in English we tend not to ask inanimate objects anything. It is more common to ask for them.
Oh and why have you invented a supposition on my part that I consider Matthew to be "silly"? What's that nonsense all about?
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Out of curiosity, where did that 8 minutes to cover 330 yards come from?
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Your second route, Gilet, is not the short cut. Sorry but my operative system doesn't allow me to draw on Google maps. Your first route was right except for turning left where you did, you should have gone to the bottom of the alley. There are many different narrow paths leading to the main entrance which is around the corner, in front of the car park. Matthew was searching Madeleine as well. So he took more time, must have tried all different narrow paths at the bottom and this takes time. Supposing he knew the short cut, of course.
I did the route myself and it took me 8 minutes and I'm a good walker.
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Your second route, Gilet, is not the short cut. Sorry but my operative system doesn't allow me to draw on Google maps. Your first route was right except for turning left where you did, you should have gone to the bottom of the alley. There are many different narrow paths leading to the main entrance which is around the corner, in front of the car park. Matthew was searching Madeleine as well. So he took more time, must have tried all different narrow paths at the bottom and this takes time. Supposing he knew the short cut, of course.
I did the route myself and it took me 8 minutes and I'm a good walker.
Even if the entrance to the reception is around the corner near the car park, that makes it a maximum of 400 yards.
There is no way any person in a hurry who is moderately fit will take 8 minutes to jog 400 yards and I believe Matthew to have been far better than moderately fit.
Your timing is quite simply ludicrous and makes your entire observation ludicrous as it is based on that false premise.
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Do normal people choose to ask waiters to contact the police for them?
It was a minute or so closer that is all.
When the option is to speak to a proper receptionist or a busy waiter, a receptionist who is used to dealing with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies or a waiter who is used to dealing with food orders, when that receptionist is fluent in English and the waiter is not and when there is likely to be a couple of minutes needed to explain the situation to someone not fluent in English then I would think the main reception is where I would head especially if I was fit and could cover the 350 metres in about two minutes easily.
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Do normal people choose to ask waiters to contact the police for them?
It was a minute or so closer that is all.
When the option is to speak to a proper receptionist or a busy waiter, a receptionist who is used to dealing with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies or a waiter who is used to dealing with food orders, when that receptionist is fluent in English and the waiter is not and when there is likely to be a couple of minutes needed to explain the situation to someone not fluent in English then I would think the main reception is where I would head especially if I was fit and could cover the 350 metres in about two minutes easily.
There were only the McCanns in the restaurant when the alarm was raised so I can't imagine the waiters were that busy.
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christ if anyone wants to look at strange timelines - look at the waiters statements
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Do normal people choose to ask waiters to contact the police for them?
It was a minute or so closer that is all.
When the option is to speak to a proper receptionist or a busy waiter, a receptionist who is used to dealing with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies or a waiter who is used to dealing with food orders, when that receptionist is fluent in English and the waiter is not and when there is likely to be a couple of minutes needed to explain the situation to someone not fluent in English then I would think the main reception is where I would head especially if I was fit and could cover the 350 metres in about two minutes easily.
There were only the McCanns in the restaurant when the alarm was raised so I can't imagine the waiters were that busy.
Don't you know that waiters have to do a lot of the clearing up in a restaurant before they go home and at the end of a shift the aim is to get that done as quickly as possible and to get home as quickly as possible. Not the best recipients in my view for a request in a foreign language to get the police involved in a missing child scenario.
Whether busy or not the rest of my points stand and I think it is positively crazy to believe that English tourists would choose a barman or waiter to report a missing child over a receptionist who is fluent in their own language and barely a minute further awsy.
I think the whole argument is ridiculous to be honest.
I believe anyone who is looking at what real people would do in this situation will be able to see that the receptionist is the obvious conduit for the request to inform the police and I think the more that people drag this out with the idea that barmen and waiters are the normal recourse of people on holiday wishing to contact the police rather than receptionists, or silly suggestions that the main reception was 8 minutes away for example the more foolish they look.
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I would assume it had a telephone.
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I would assume it had a telephone.
Only assumption then, perhaps the Tapas group were equally unsure?
You may well have hit the nail on the head here Faithlilly. If like you, the Tapas group were unsure that there was a phone there then they may have not even considered it as an option. They would know without a shadow of doubt that the Reception would have a phone and that they could communicate clearly there about the issue with the staff.
Thanks for that thought.
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I would assume it had a telephone.
Only assumption then, perhaps the Tapas group were equally unsure?
You may well have hit the nail on the head here Faithlilly. If like you, the Tapas group were unsure that there was a phone there then they may have not even considered it as an option. They would know without a shadow of doubt that the Reception would have a phone and that they could communicate clearly there about the issue with the staff.
Thanks for that thought.
If they were unsure the first thing any adult would do was to ask or they all had mobiles so why not ask for the emergency number for the police ?
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Do normal people choose to ask waiters to contact the police for them?
It was a minute or so closer that is all.
When the option is to speak to a proper receptionist or a busy waiter, a receptionist who is used to dealing with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies or a waiter who is used to dealing with food orders, when that receptionist is fluent in English and the waiter is not and when there is likely to be a couple of minutes needed to explain the situation to someone not fluent in English then I would think the main reception is where I would head especially if I was fit and could cover the 350 metres in about two minutes easily.
No !
The receptionist used to deal with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies waited about 25 minutes before calling the police ! Well, in fact, he had to respect hierarchy and ask the manager before !
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No the first thing any normal person would do is go where they were absolutely certain they could find an English speaking person who most definitely had a telephone.
This is now getting ridiculous.
Instead of going to Reception where people spoke fluent English and definitely had a phone, you are absurdly suggesting they should have saved what would have been about one minute by going to a bar/restaurant to establish with people who were not fluent in English whether they had a telephone or if not a land line whether they could possibly use their mobiles to contact the police over a missing child case, with all the translation problems of giving clear details about that missing child case to the local police via the none-too-fluent barman/waiter whose attention they had managed to attract.
Personally I would have done the sane thing and gone to reception. You can come up with lots of other ideas to try to attack the McCanns but I suggest you do better than this hare-brained one.
After all it was you who suggested in the first place that there may not have been a phone there at all.
Then they would have to go to reception anyway.
As I said. I'll stick to sanity and known facts.
We know that the place they went to was the Reception.
And sanity in my opinion suggests that was not only the sensible decision but the normal decision.
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I would assume it had a telephone.
Only assumption then, perhaps the Tapas group were equally unsure?
You may well have hit the nail on the head here Faithlilly. If like you, the Tapas group were unsure that there was a phone there then they may have not even considered it as an option. They would know without a shadow of doubt that the Reception would have a phone and that they could communicate clearly there about the issue with the staff.
Thanks for that thought.
Are you kidding ? All the Tapas group had cell phones they could lend to the Tapas staff in the unlikely case there was no phone in the restaurant.
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Do normal people choose to ask waiters to contact the police for them?
It was a minute or so closer that is all.
When the option is to speak to a proper receptionist or a busy waiter, a receptionist who is used to dealing with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies or a waiter who is used to dealing with food orders, when that receptionist is fluent in English and the waiter is not and when there is likely to be a couple of minutes needed to explain the situation to someone not fluent in English then I would think the main reception is where I would head especially if I was fit and could cover the 350 metres in about two minutes easily.
No !
The receptionist used to deal with all kinds of inquiries and emergencies waited about 25 minutes before calling the police ! Well, in fact, he had to respect hierarchy and ask the manager before !
But the Tapas group could not have known in advance that the receptionist would be so dammed incompetent could they?
Could you please give your evidence that he "had to respect hierachy and ask the manager before"? Or are you just guessing as to why he appears to have been such an incompetent?
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No the first thing any normal person would do is go where they were absolutely certain they could find an English speaking person who most definitely had a telephone.
This is now getting ridiculous.
Instead of going to Reception where people spoke fluent English and definitely had a phone, you are absurdly suggesting they should have saved what would have been about one minute by going to a bar/restaurant to establish with people who were not fluent in English whether they had a telephone or if not a land line whether they could possibly use their mobiles to contact the police over a missing child case, with all the translation problems of giving clear details about that missing child case to the local police via the none-too-fluent barman/waiter whose attention they had managed to attract.
Personally I would have done the sane thing and gone to reception. You can come up with lots of other ideas to try to attack the McCanns but I suggest you do better than this hare-brained one.
After all it was you who suggested in the first place that there may not have been a phone there at all.
And what if none of the staff had mobiles with them?
Then they would have to go to reception anyway.
As I said. I'll stick to sanity and known facts.
We know that the place they went to was the Reception.
And sanity in my opinion suggests that was not only the sensible decision but the normal decision.
Yes it does, Gilet. Come on, get back to rationality !
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No the first thing any normal person would do is go where they were absolutely certain they could find an English speaking person who most definitely had a telephone.
This is now getting ridiculous.
Instead of going to Reception where people spoke fluent English and definitely had a phone, you are absurdly suggesting they should have saved what would have been about one minute by going to a bar/restaurant to establish with people who were not fluent in English whether they had a telephone or if not a land line whether they could possibly use their mobiles to contact the police over a missing child case, with all the translation problems of giving clear details about that missing child case to the local police via the none-too-fluent barman/waiter whose attention they had managed to attract.
Personally I would have done the sane thing and gone to reception. You can come up with lots of other ideas to try to attack the McCanns but I suggest you do better than this hare-brained one.
After all it was you who suggested in the first place that there may not have been a phone there at all.
And what if none of the staff had mobiles with them?
Then they would have to go to reception anyway.
As I said. I'll stick to sanity and known facts.
We know that the place they went to was the Reception.
And sanity in my opinion suggests that was not only the sensible decision but the normal decision.
Yes it does, Gilet. Come on, get back to rationality !
Rationality is what I have stated.
Irrationality is what you claimed. That it would take a very fit Matthew 8 full minutes to get from Apt 5A to reception. That is beyond irrational. It is ludicrous for a distance of significantly less than 400 metres half on quite a steep slope downwards.
There is no issue here as anti McCanns are trying to suggest.
We know where they went, we know the receptionist was incompetent or the OC system was incompetent.
We also know that most English people when given the choice of going to a bar where nobody spoke fluent English, where they did not know if a phone existed or not and going to Reception would choose the latter when it was only one minute further away.
The reality is that we English tend to go to Reception over every issue be it major or minor. Anyone who discounts this fact clearly has either never been abroad in a hotel where there are lots of English or is simply refusing to face up to facts.
As I have said previously this is a complete non-issue and is making those who are pursuing it (especially when they have to resort to absurd suggestions such as the 8 minute timing for a 350metre jog downhill) look utterly foolish.
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No the first thing any normal person would do is go where they were absolutely certain they could find an English speaking person who most definitely had a telephone.
This is now getting ridiculous.
Instead of going to Reception where people spoke fluent English and definitely had a phone, you are absurdly suggesting they should have saved what would have been about one minute by going to a bar/restaurant to establish with people who were not fluent in English whether they had a telephone or if not a land line whether they could possibly use their mobiles to contact the police over a missing child case, with all the translation problems of giving clear details about that missing child case to the local police via the none-too-fluent barman/waiter whose attention they had managed to attract.
Personally I would have done the sane thing and gone to reception. You can come up with lots of other ideas to try to attack the McCanns but I suggest you do better than this hare-brained one.
After all it was you who suggested in the first place that there may not have been a phone there at all.
And what if none of the staff had mobiles with them?
Then they would have to go to reception anyway.
As I said. I'll stick to sanity and known facts.
We know that the place they went to was the Reception.
And sanity in my opinion suggests that was not only the sensible decision but the normal decision.
Yes it does, Gilet. Come on, get back to rationality !
Rationality is what I have stated.
Irrationality is what you claimed. That it would take a very fit Matthew 8 full minutes to get from Apt 5A to reception. That is beyond irrational. It is ludicrous for a distance of significantly less than 400 metres half on quite a steep slope downwards.
There is no issue here as anti McCanns are trying to suggest.
We know where they went, we know the receptionist was incompetent or the OC system was incompetent.
We also know that most English people when given the choice of going to a bar where nobody spoke fluent English, where they did not know if a phone existed or not and going to Reception would choose the latter when it was only one minute further away.
As I have said previously this is a complete non-issue and is making those who are pursuing it (especially when they have to resort to absurd suggestions such as the 8 minute timing for a 350metre jog downhill) look utterly foolish.
Mrs Fenn, an ex pat, offered to call to police for them ( she clearly felt up to the task, Portuguese speaking or not )
Gerry McCann told her not to ... because it had 'already been done' ( as if 'bothering' the police unecessarily was a concern at that point ! )
What do you make of that ? ... of Gerry telling someone he didn't want them to call rhe police ?
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No the first thing any normal person would do is go where they were absolutely certain they could find an English speaking person who most definitely had a telephone.
This is now getting ridiculous.
Instead of going to Reception where people spoke fluent English and definitely had a phone, you are absurdly suggesting they should have saved what would have been about one minute by going to a bar/restaurant to establish with people who were not fluent in English whether they had a telephone or if not a land line whether they could possibly use their mobiles to contact the police over a missing child case, with all the translation problems of giving clear details about that missing child case to the local police via the none-too-fluent barman/waiter whose attention they had managed to attract.
Personally I would have done the sane thing and gone to reception. You can come up with lots of other ideas to try to attack the McCanns but I suggest you do better than this hare-brained one.
After all it was you who suggested in the first place that there may not have been a phone there at all.
And what if none of the staff had mobiles with them?
Then they would have to go to reception anyway.
As I said. I'll stick to sanity and known facts.
We know that the place they went to was the Reception.
And sanity in my opinion suggests that was not only the sensible decision but the normal decision.
Yes it does, Gilet. Come on, get back to rationality !
Rationality is what I have stated.
Irrationality is what you claimed. That it would take a very fit Matthew 8 full minutes to get from Apt 5A to reception. That is beyond irrational. It is ludicrous for a distance of significantly less than 400 metres half on quite a steep slope downwards.
There is no issue here as anti McCanns are trying to suggest.
We know where they went, we know the receptionist was incompetent or the OC system was incompetent.
We also know that most English people when given the choice of going to a bar where nobody spoke fluent English, where they did not know if a phone existed or not and going to Reception would choose the latter when it was only one minute further away.
As I have said previously this is a complete non-issue and is making those who are pursuing it (especially when they have to resort to absurd suggestions such as the 8 minute timing for a 350metre jog downhill) look utterly foolish.
Mrs Fenn, an ex pat, offered to call to police for them ( she clearly felt up to the task, Portuguese speaking or not )
Gerry McCann told her not to ... because it had 'already been done' ( as if 'bothering' the police unecessarily was a concern at that point ! )
What do you make of that ? ... of Gerry telling someone he didn't want them to call rhe police ?
I make of it precisely what Gerry said, that it had already been done.
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No the first thing any normal person would do is go where they were absolutely certain they could find an English speaking person who most definitely had a telephone.
This is now getting ridiculous.
Instead of going to Reception where people spoke fluent English and definitely had a phone, you are absurdly suggesting they should have saved what would have been about one minute by going to a bar/restaurant to establish with people who were not fluent in English whether they had a telephone or if not a land line whether they could possibly use their mobiles to contact the police over a missing child case, with all the translation problems of giving clear details about that missing child case to the local police via the none-too-fluent barman/waiter whose attention they had managed to attract.
Personally I would have done the sane thing and gone to reception. You can come up with lots of other ideas to try to attack the McCanns but I suggest you do better than this hare-brained one.
After all it was you who suggested in the first place that there may not have been a phone there at all.
And what if none of the staff had mobiles with them?
Then they would have to go to reception anyway.
As I said. I'll stick to sanity and known facts.
We know that the place they went to was the Reception.
And sanity in my opinion suggests that was not only the sensible decision but the normal decision.
Yes it does, Gilet. Come on, get back to rationality !
Rationality is what I have stated.
Irrationality is what you claimed. That it would take a very fit Matthew 8 full minutes to get from Apt 5A to reception. That is beyond irrational. It is ludicrous for a distance of significantly less than 400 metres half on quite a steep slope downwards.
There is no issue here as anti McCanns are trying to suggest.
We know where they went, we know the receptionist was incompetent or the OC system was incompetent.
We also know that most English people when given the choice of going to a bar where nobody spoke fluent English, where they did not know if a phone existed or not and going to Reception would choose the latter when it was only one minute further away.
As I have said previously this is a complete non-issue and is making those who are pursuing it (especially when they have to resort to absurd suggestions such as the 8 minute timing for a 350metre jog downhill) look utterly foolish.
Mrs Fenn, an ex pat, offered to call to police for them ( she clearly felt up to the task, Portuguese speaking or not )
Gerry McCann told her not to ... because it had 'already been done' ( as if 'bothering' the police unecessarily was a concern at that point ! )
What do you make of that ? ... of Gerry telling someone he didn't want them to call rhe police ?
I make of it precisely what Gerry said, that it had already been done.
Really ?
It just doesn't sit right with me somehow
An English speaking ex-pat who can understand the urgency of the situation offers to call the police ... surely the response would be be "oh yes please, would you ? we'd be very grateful"
I mean the more people contacting the police to make tham aware of just how urgent the matter was, the better ... wouldn't you say ?
Rather than telling the lady upstairs that the police had already been called once, and that was enough
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Really ?
It just doesn't sit right with me somehow
An English speaking ex-pat who can understand the urgency of the situation offers to call the police ... surely the response would be be "oh yes please, would you ? we'd be very grateful"
I mean the more people contacting the police to make tham aware of just how urgent the matter was, the better ... wouldn't you say ?
Rather than telling the lady upstairs that the police had already been called once, and that was enough
If I was watching a video of the conversation I would be able to comment further.
As we have only the briefest intimations of what the whole conversation was like I have no idea whether statement by Gerry is the key to the cracking the entire disappearance or not. I don't know in what tone it was said. Was there an inference in the way it was said that perhaps even though the call had been made then Mrs. Fenn was welcome to try herself or was it utterly dismissive?
I am afraid I have said this before tonight and will repeat it now. I am simply not interested in the kind of speculation you are hinting at here. People can push as hard as they like but I will stick to facts.
I make of this precisely what I know. That is that Mrs. Fenn asked if she should call and Gerry said the Police had been called.
Anything further is guesswork.
I will leave you to the guessing while I stick to the facts.
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Really ?
It just doesn't sit right with me somehow
An English speaking ex-pat who can understand the urgency of the situation offers to call the police ... surely the response would be be "oh yes please, would you ? we'd be very grateful"
I mean the more people contacting the police to make tham aware of just how urgent the matter was, the better ... wouldn't you say ?
Rather than telling the lady upstairs that the police had already been called once, and that was enough
If I was watching a video of the conversation I would be able to comment further.
As we have only the briefest intimations of what the whole conversation was like I have no idea whether statement by Gerry is the key to the cracking the entire disappearance or not. I don't know in what tone it was said. Was there an inference in the way it was said that perhaps even though the call had been made then Mrs. Fenn was welcome to try herself or was it utterly dismissive?
I am afraid I have said this before tonight and will repeat it now. I am simply not interested in the kind of speculation you are hinting at here. People can push as hard as they like but I will stick to facts.
I make of this precisely what I know. That is that Mrs. Fenn asked if she should call and Gerry said the Police had been called.
Anything further is guesswork.
I will leave you to the guessing while I stick to the facts.
Well, here is something you don't have to 'speculate' on because it is fact
The next morning, before Gerry and Kate McCann had even set foot in Portimao police station, the British press were carrying stories about the 'lack of urgency' by Portuguese police ... the same Portuguese police that Gerry had told Mrs Fenn not to bother calling
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Really ?
It just doesn't sit right with me somehow
An English speaking ex-pat who can understand the urgency of the situation offers to call the police ... surely the response would be be "oh yes please, would you ? we'd be very grateful"
I mean the more people contacting the police to make tham aware of just how urgent the matter was, the better ... wouldn't you say ?
Rather than telling the lady upstairs that the police had already been called once, and that was enough
If I was watching a video of the conversation I would be able to comment further.
As we have only the briefest intimations of what the whole conversation was like I have no idea whether statement by Gerry is the key to the cracking the entire disappearance or not. I don't know in what tone it was said. Was there an inference in the way it was said that perhaps even though the call had been made then Mrs. Fenn was welcome to try herself or was it utterly dismissive?
I am afraid I have said this before tonight and will repeat it now. I am simply not interested in the kind of speculation you are hinting at here. People can push as hard as they like but I will stick to facts.
I make of this precisely what I know. That is that Mrs. Fenn asked if she should call and Gerry said the Police had been called.
Anything further is guesswork.
I will leave you to the guessing while I stick to the facts.
Well, here is something you don't have to 'speculate' on because it is fact
The next morning, before Gerry and Kate McCann had even set foot in Portimao police station, the British press were carrying stories about the 'lack of urgency' by Portuguese police ... the same Portuguese police that Gerry had told Mrs Fenn not to bother calling
Why are you now lying?
Gerry, as far as I am aware never told her NOT TO CALL THE POLICE. He simply indicated that they had already been called.
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Really ?
It just doesn't sit right with me somehow
An English speaking ex-pat who can understand the urgency of the situation offers to call the police ... surely the response would be be "oh yes please, would you ? we'd be very grateful"
I mean the more people contacting the police to make tham aware of just how urgent the matter was, the better ... wouldn't you say ?
Rather than telling the lady upstairs that the police had already been called once, and that was enough
If I was watching a video of the conversation I would be able to comment further.
As we have only the briefest intimations of what the whole conversation was like I have no idea whether statement by Gerry is the key to the cracking the entire disappearance or not. I don't know in what tone it was said. Was there an inference in the way it was said that perhaps even though the call had been made then Mrs. Fenn was welcome to try herself or was it utterly dismissive?
I am afraid I have said this before tonight and will repeat it now. I am simply not interested in the kind of speculation you are hinting at here. People can push as hard as they like but I will stick to facts.
I make of this precisely what I know. That is that Mrs. Fenn asked if she should call and Gerry said the Police had been called.
Anything further is guesswork.
I will leave you to the guessing while I stick to the facts.
Well, here is something you don't have to 'speculate' on because it is fact
The next morning, before Gerry and Kate McCann had even set foot in Portimao police station, the British press were carrying stories about the 'lack of urgency' by Portuguese police ... the same Portuguese police that Gerry had told Mrs Fenn not to bother calling
Why are you now lying?
Gerry, as far as I am aware never told her NOT TO CALL THE POLICE. He simply indicated that they had already been called.
Gerry McCann was offered the use of Mrs Fenn's phone to contact the police
He refused the offer
That is the truth
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Really ?
It just doesn't sit right with me somehow
An English speaking ex-pat who can understand the urgency of the situation offers to call the police ... surely the response would be be "oh yes please, would you ? we'd be very grateful"
I mean the more people contacting the police to make tham aware of just how urgent the matter was, the better ... wouldn't you say ?
Rather than telling the lady upstairs that the police had already been called once, and that was enough
If I was watching a video of the conversation I would be able to comment further.
As we have only the briefest intimations of what the whole conversation was like I have no idea whether statement by Gerry is the key to the cracking the entire disappearance or not. I don't know in what tone it was said. Was there an inference in the way it was said that perhaps even though the call had been made then Mrs. Fenn was welcome to try herself or was it utterly dismissive?
I am afraid I have said this before tonight and will repeat it now. I am simply not interested in the kind of speculation you are hinting at here. People can push as hard as they like but I will stick to facts.
I make of this precisely what I know. That is that Mrs. Fenn asked if she should call and Gerry said the Police had been called.
Anything further is guesswork.
I will leave you to the guessing while I stick to the facts.
Well, here is something you don't have to 'speculate' on because it is fact
The next morning, before Gerry and Kate McCann had even set foot in Portimao police station, the British press were carrying stories about the 'lack of urgency' by Portuguese police ... the same Portuguese police that Gerry had told Mrs Fenn not to bother calling
Why are you now lying?
Gerry, as far as I am aware never told her NOT TO CALL THE POLICE. He simply indicated that they had already been called.
Gerry McCann was offered the use of Mrs Fenn's phone to contact the police
He refused the offer
That is the truth
Now that's a bit of news
which has totally escaped this poster
share more please
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Now that's a bit of news
which has totally escaped this poster
share more please
Mrs Fenn's police statement 20 August 2007
At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying he could use her phone to call the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30
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Kate writes in her book that their friends were running too and fro to the tapas bar pleading with the staff to telephone the police and this was in addition to the requests made to the main reception.
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Mrs Fenn's police statement 20 August 2007
At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying he could use her phone to call the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30
Thanks icabodcrane
now you prompted my memory, that is how I recall this too
Suppose (and no disrespect intended) Mrs. Fenn, of advanced age would not have assumed that virtually anyone in 2007 would be in the possession of a mobile phone? (And we know by the various pings/blips/clicks etc that the McCann party DID have mobile phones and used them extensively that night) - as did Murat and Malinka
Triangulation's your uncle.
And thus Mrs. Fenn may have offered the use of her landline phone
Plausible (and making the lady even more likeable)
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Off topic waffle removed. This is NOT the Mark Warner appreciation thread. 8(0(*
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Mrs Fenn's police statement 20 August 2007
At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying he could use her phone to call the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30
So - did Gerry say "Thanks for the offer but the police have just been called"
OR
"No, I refuse your kind offer" ?
Which is most likely in your view?
The former.
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So, it's very clear then, Gerry McCann declined Mrs. Fenn's offer to call the police from her phone as he was convinced that it already had been done.
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So, it's very clear then, Gerry McCann declined Mrs. Fenn's offer to call the police from her phone as he was convinced that it already had been done.
as he said in his reply
doh
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Mrs Fenn seems to have thought that English wasn't a problem. As a resident she likely knew that anglophones were answered in English, as in all touristic parts of the planet. We'll never know whether she was aware of the European Emergency Nb..
In the Paraiso of PDL, I asked some information to a waiter in Portuguese, he was puzzled, I repeated and he answered.. in English !
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That's not the case at all afaik, & also, if you already think police has been called, there is no need to call them again, unless you feel that too much time has passed & you need to make a second call to remind them.
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Mrs Fenn seems to have thought that English wasn't a problem. As a resident she likely knew that anglophones were answered in English, as in all touristic parts of the planet. We'll never know whether she was aware of the European Emergency Nb..
In the Paraiso of PDL, I asked some information to a waiter in Portuguese, he was puzzled, I repeated and he answered.. in English !
Are you on another planet?
Are you seriously suggesting that English speakers are invariably answered in English wherever they are and whoever they are speaking to.
I have previously offered statistical evidence that people do not know of the European emergency number even when resident in Europe, never mind as tourists.
And in your anecdote about the waiter having to have something repeated to him, you offer a perfect explanation as to why the McCanns would absolutely choose to go to Reception where they could be assured that the person they dealt with spoke English. If the waiter had to have your request repeated to him, the McCanns would be aware having dined their that this was a possibility and would avoid the need for such time wasting. Imagine how difficult explaining that your child has gone missing would be. Have some empathy with these people and realise that English speakers gravitate to English speakers especially if they know their language skills are not great.
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No official phone numbers here are ever answered in English. You have to wait while they find someone, often without success.
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Offline AnneGuedes
In the Paraiso of PDL, I asked some information to a waiter in Portuguese, he was puzzled, I repeated and he answered.. in English !
I may have missed something here - are you saying that YOU have spoken to a waiter?
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It may be worth reminding people of the fact that a 2013 survey shows that only very small proportions of the general population are even aware of 112 being the Europe-wide emergency number.
"According to the latest Eurobarometer Survey on 112, 13% of British people know they can use 112 everywhere in the EU."
http://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-united-kingdom
"According to the latest Eurobarometer Survey on 112, 29% of Portuguese people know they can use 112 everywhere in the EU."
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-portugal
And that though theoretically you will be put through to a bi-lingual speaker, the reality (as I can personally testify) is that is not the case. In my instance it took a short time for an English speaker to be mustered, a matter of about three minutes I would estimate.
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It may be worth reminding people of the fact that a 2013 survey shows that only very small proportions of the general population are even aware of 112 being the Europe-wide emergency number.
"According to the latest Eurobarometer Survey on 112, 13% of British people know they can use 112 everywhere in the EU."
http://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-united-kingdom
"According to the latest Eurobarometer Survey on 112, 29% of Portuguese people know they can use 112 everywhere in the EU."
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-portugal
And that though theoretically you will be put through to a bi-lingual speaker, the reality (as I can personally testify) is that is not the case. In my instance it took a short time for an English speaker to be mustered, a matter of about three minutes I would estimate.
You were lucky. Only three minutes?
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It may be worth reminding people of the fact that a 2013 survey shows that only very small proportions of the general population are even aware of 112 being the Europe-wide emergency number.
"According to the latest Eurobarometer Survey on 112, 13% of British people know they can use 112 everywhere in the EU."
http://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-united-kingdom
"According to the latest Eurobarometer Survey on 112, 29% of Portuguese people know they can use 112 everywhere in the EU."
https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/en/112-portugal
And that though theoretically you will be put through to a bi-lingual speaker, the reality (as I can personally testify) is that is not the case. In my instance it took a short time for an English speaker to be mustered, a matter of about three minutes I would estimate.
You were lucky. Only three minutes?
I am a lucky kind of person in general.
Lucky in two respects in this particular case. Firstly that it was only about three minutes and secondly because the incident was very effectively dealt with. It was not in Portugal by the way.
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Also, we have seen how wide spread the area occupied by OC really was, how does anyone expect holiday makers to know how to describe exactly WHERE in the resort they were currently at. It is also highly unlikely that the person answering the phone at the other end was familiar with the resort or the layout. The natural thing for any holiday maker would be to head straight for reception, where the only staff in the resorts, who have received some type of training to deal with emergency situations, are at.
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Have some empathy with these people and realise that English speakers gravitate to English speakers especially if they know their language skills are not great.
Your claim unbelievers should have empathy has been memorized, don't worry. You'll achieve nothing by repeating it, except for hurting people you don't even know.
N'en rajoutez pas mon cher, ce n'est pas ainsi que les hommes vivent !
You didn't understand, lack of subtlety ? : the waiter was expecting me to speak English or German, not Portuguese. That's why I had to repeat.
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Even Anne Guedes says that the waiter didn't understand her at first. Was that because his English was better than her Portuguese?
As for reporting the abduction to The Tapas Bar Reception. This is what I thought they had done. Although personally, I can't see the difference. Surely these two Reception Areas must be in some kind of communication.
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The natural thing for any holiday maker would be to head straight for reception, where the only staff in the resorts, who have received some type of training to deal with emergency situations, are at.
25 minutes ! Bravo !
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anne have you spoken direct to a waiter in Tapas or OC?
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Have some empathy with these people and realise that English speakers gravitate to English speakers especially if they know their language skills are not great.
Your claim unbelievers should have empathy has been memorized, don't worry. You'll achieve nothing by repeating it, except for hurting people you don't even know.
N'en rajoutez pas mon cher, ce n'est pas ainsi que les hommes vivent !
You didn't understand, lack of subtlety ? : the waiter was expecting me to speak English or German, not Portuguese. That's why I had to repeat.
Does this post actually mean something?
Incidentally I am not your "dear" and never will be. Such forms of address are quite unnecessary.
And the idea that I have memorized something regarding empathy is quite mystifying.
I merely commented that your previous post showed no empathy and enjoined you to perhaps find it within you to show some. And I did so because your post did not show empathy, not because I had memorized something.
Your post identified a clear reason why the McCanns would choose Reception rather than a barman/waiter to convey such a vital message. That was the interesting part.
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Even Anne Guedes says that the waiter didn't understand her at first. Was that because his English was better than her Portuguese?
He understood of course. Just a question of automatism. When lecturing in French, if a porter opened the door and asked something, it happened I answered in French, only realizing it thanks to the porter's bewilderment.
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The natural thing for any holiday maker would be to head straight for reception, where the only staff in the resorts, who have received some type of training to deal with emergency situations, are at.
25 minutes ! Bravo !
Don't be ridiculous. And why are you so keen to enforce the idea that it took 25 minutes? It didn't.
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Have some empathy with these people and realise that English speakers gravitate to English speakers especially if they know their language skills are not great.
Your claim unbelievers should have empathy has been memorized, don't worry. You'll achieve nothing by repeating it, except for hurting people you don't even know.
N'en rajoutez pas mon cher, ce n'est pas ainsi que les hommes vivent !
You didn't understand, lack of subtlety ? : the waiter was expecting me to speak English or German, not Portuguese. That's why I had to repeat.
So The Waiter didn't understand your Portuguese. That much is obvious.
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Your claim unbelievers should have empathy has been memorized, don't worry. You'll achieve nothing by repeating it, except for hurting people you don't even know.
the idea that I have memorized something regarding empathy is quite mystifying.
So egocentric ! Obviously the agent isn't you !
BTW "mon cher" was rhetorical..
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The natural thing for any holiday maker would be to head straight for reception, where the only staff in the resorts, who have received some type of training to deal with emergency situations, are at.
25 minutes ! Bravo !
Don't be ridiculous. And why are you so keen to enforce the idea that it took 25 minutes? It didn't.
Believers shouldn't be rude if they hope (but do they ?) to convince unbelievers.
Why don't you say how long it took to call the police at 22h41 ?
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So The Waiter didn't understand your Portuguese. That much is obvious.
This is argumentum ad hominem, if by chance you understand my Latin !
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So The Waiter didn't understand your Portuguese. That much is obvious.
This is argumentum ad hominem, if by chance you understand my Latin !
I understand your Latin and you are talking absolute cobblers.
It was you who posted that the waiter did not catch your drift and you had to repeat yourself.
How can Eleanor be abusing you as a person when she is merely re-iterating what you yourself said?
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Totally ridiculous, has anyone ever been to a hotel where it says "If you need assistance, please pop down to the bar & ask the waiter" rather than "kindly contact reception"? I'm sure that's not the procedure at the OC either - & we already know that one of the waiters did just that, contacted the reception.
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Your claim unbelievers should have empathy has been memorized, don't worry. You'll achieve nothing by repeating it, except for hurting people you don't even know.
the idea that I have memorized something regarding empathy is quite mystifying.
So egocentric ! Obviously the agent isn't you !
BTW "mon cher" was rhetorical..
There is nothing even remotely rhetorical about, "Mon Cher" because it is an endearment. Unwanted on this occasion.
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The natural thing for any holiday maker would be to head straight for reception, where the only staff in the resorts, who have received some type of training to deal with emergency situations, are at.
25 minutes ! Bravo !
Don't be ridiculous. And why are you so keen to enforce the idea that it took 25 minutes? It didn't.
Believers shouldn't be rude if they hope (but do they ?) to convince unbelievers.
Why don't you say how long it took to call the police at 22h41 ?
I am not trying to convince anyone. I am just having some difficulty with the fact that you are. Especially since it is irrelevant.
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So The Waiter didn't understand your Portuguese. That much is obvious.
This is argumentum ad hominem, if by chance you understand my Latin !
I understand your Latin and you are talking absolute cobblers.
It was you who posted that the waiter did not catch your drift and you had to repeat yourself.
How can Eleanor be abusing you as a person when she is merely re-iterating what you yourself said?
Thank you, Gilet. No, I didn't understand her Latin, except that it is normally followed by "Attack", so in full I would have understood what Anne Guedes was accusing me of.
But as you say, she said it herself that The Waiter didn't understand her.
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Your claim unbelievers should have empathy has been memorized, don't worry. You'll achieve nothing by repeating it, except for hurting people you don't even know.
the idea that I have memorized something regarding empathy is quite mystifying.
So egocentric ! Obviously the agent isn't you !
BTW "mon cher" was rhetorical..
Nothing egocentric at all. Just a statement of fact unlike your idiotic presumption about me memorizing something.
Are you now in the realms of David Icke and conspiracy lunatics? What agent are you referring to? For everyone's information I am not 007 though I share with him a love of Martinis.
And to try and excuse your use of the term "mon Cher" within that quotation is to make a laughing stock of your claim to linguistic expertise.
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Totally ridiculous, has anyone ever been to a hotel where it says "If you need assistance, please pop down to the bar & ask the waiter" rather than "kindly contact reception"? I'm sure that's not the procedure at the OC either - & we already know that one of the waiters did just that, contacted the reception.
Can't say I have but Anne Guedes must have. She is so convinced that the McCanns should have used some random waiter to be the conduit of this vital call to the Police even though she admits the waiters didn't even understand her Portuguese first time round (can it really be that good I wonder?) never mind their English.
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What with her Portuguese and his English, I can well see why it could have taken 25 minutes.
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Totally ridiculous, has anyone ever been to a hotel where it says "If you need assistance, please pop down to the bar & ask the waiter" rather than "kindly contact reception"? I'm sure that's not the procedure at the OC either - & we already know that one of the waiters did just that, contacted the reception.
Is it ridiculous to ask a waiter to kindly contact the reception in order to alert the police on a missing child, moreover if there is suspicion of abduction ?
I'm dreaming !
It's amazing in 2013 that you, in need of assistance (and what assistance ! A missing child!), would choose the marathon instead of that so useful device, the telephone.
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I think you may have been misinformed about the length of a Marathon but never mind. The waiter did use the phone, didn't he? It's in the witness statements, they used it to phone RECEPTION, as any normal person would.
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I think you may have been misinformed about the length of a Marathon but never mind. The waiter did use the phone, didn't he? It's in the witness statements, they used it to phone RECEPTION, as any normal person would.
I was kidding, Mrs B. As you know the original length is the distance between Marathon and Athens, run to announce the victory against Persia. No telephone in the 5th century BC.
Do you have a link to the waiter who was asked (by a member of the group ?) to call the receptionist in order to call the police about a missing child ?
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Totally ridiculous, has anyone ever been to a hotel where it says "If you need assistance, please pop down to the bar & ask the waiter" rather than "kindly contact reception"? I'm sure that's not the procedure at the OC either - & we already know that one of the waiters did just that, contacted the reception.
Is it ridiculous to ask a waiter to kindly contact the reception in order to alert the police on a missing child, moreover if there is suspicion of abduction ?
I'm dreaming !
It's amazing in 2013 that you, in need of assistance (and what assistance ! A missing child!), would choose the marathon instead of that so useful device, the telephone.
Neither a marathon nor even an 8 minute jog.
Two minutes maximum.
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We know that the receptionist was contacted by someone from the Tapas Restaurant
"That on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
Whether it was someone from the Tapas group who asked them or not isn't mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
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We know that the receptionist was contacted by someone from the Tapas Restaurant
"That on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
Whether it was someone from the Tapas group who asked them or not isn't mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
How can that be though ?
How can the receptionist have been alerted from the tapas bar sometime between 9.30 and 10.00pm ... when Kate herself was still sat at the table during that time ?
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If the receptionist had a firm idea of when the incident occurred, do you think he'd have stated between "9.30 - 22.00"?
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It's been discussed on another thread : This receptionist says he called immediately the GNR, but the first call was at 10h41, a fact that discredits this witness.
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If the receptionist had a firm idea of when the incident occurred, do you think he'd have stated between "9.30 - 22.00"?
I see ... he was 'firm' about some things ... but less 'firm' about others ?
That's called cherry -picking, and it is a weak argument as a consequence
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We know that the receptionist was contacted by someone from the Tapas Restaurant
"That on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
Whether it was someone from the Tapas group who asked them or not isn't mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
How can that be though ?
How can the receptionist have been alerted from the tapas bar sometime between 9.30 and 10.00pm ... when Kate herself was still sat at the table during that time ?
Clearly we can see such a discrepancy should be cleared up.
So surely the PJ would have seen the same discrepancy and realised it should be cleared up immediately.
It would have been cleared up one way or the other in a second interview with the man and should have been done very quickly as he was in PDL.
Could someone post a link to the second interview they did with him please?
Or, heaven forfend that this should be something else they failed to do? Surely not?
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We know that the receptionist was contacted by someone from the Tapas Restaurant
"That on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
Whether it was someone from the Tapas group who asked them or not isn't mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
How can that be though ?
How can the receptionist have been alerted from the tapas bar sometime between 9.30 and 10.00pm ... when Kate herself was still sat at the table during that time ?
Just another example of the vastly differing powers of recall which different people possess IMO. The witness statements are filled with time discrepancies - not lies - just best recollections but which may be inaccurate. This applies to everyone including the McCanns and their friends.
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We know that the receptionist was contacted by someone from the Tapas Restaurant
"That on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
Whether it was someone from the Tapas group who asked them or not isn't mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
How can that be though ?
How can the receptionist have been alerted from the tapas bar sometime between 9.30 and 10.00pm ... when Kate herself was still sat at the table during that time ?
Clearly we can see such a discrepancy should be cleared up.
So surely the PJ would have seen the same discrepancy and realised it should be cleared up immediately.
It would have been cleared up one way or the other in a second interview with the man and should have been done very quickly as he was in PDL.
Could someone post a link to the second interview they did with him please?
Or, heaven forfend that this should be something else they failed to do? Surely not?
You'll get no argument from me that the Portuguese investigation was shoddy and inadequate
I'll put this forward though ... if the McCanns were involved in the disappearance of their child in some way, then the shoddiness and inadequacy of the Portugueses investigation might, possibly, have worked in their favour
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It's been a long time since I read the rogs, but something keeps bugging me, and I have to ask the question
Are we sure that there was a receptionist on at the seconadary Tapas reception that night?
Cos he/she would have seen everybody coming and going to the tapas area. Everyone had to pass straight by him.
Do the rogs include his statement? I cant remember seeing his statement
My apologies if I have this wrong.
There was no receptionist on at the Tapas reception when we were there in June/july 2010
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We know that the receptionist was contacted by someone from the Tapas Restaurant
"That on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared."
Whether it was someone from the Tapas group who asked them or not isn't mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
How can that be though ?
How can the receptionist have been alerted from the tapas bar sometime between 9.30 and 10.00pm ... when Kate herself was still sat at the table during that time ?
Clearly we can see such a discrepancy should be cleared up.
So surely the PJ would have seen the same discrepancy and realised it should be cleared up immediately.
It would have been cleared up one way or the other in a second interview with the man and should have been done very quickly as he was in PDL.
Could someone post a link to the second interview they did with him please?
Or, heaven forfend that this should be something else they failed to do? Surely not?
The PJ were fully aware that SOMEONE from the tapas bar called reception, they even asked this witness about it.
Questioned if he was the person who called the reception to tell them that a child had gone missing, he states that he cannot definitively remember if he did or not. He admits that he could have been the one to call.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
And the witness states that he is not to sure but he could have done. So no, the receptionist were not lying & is not discredited. The person who accuses him of it though, is discredited IMO.
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It's been a long time since I read the rogs, but something keeps bugging me, and I have to ask the question
Are we sure that there was a receptionist on at the seconadary Tapas reception that night?
Cos he/she would have seen everybody coming and going to the tapas area. Everyone had to pass straight by him.
Do the rogs include his statement? I cant remember seeing his statement
My apologies if I have this wrong.
There was no receptionist on at the Tapas reception when we were there in June/july 2010
I can't answer with any certainty sadie, but I don't recall any mention having ever been made of a receptionist at the 'secondary' reception ( the one located at the entrance to the tapas bar area )
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The more pertinent issue for me is the claimed 8 minutes to travel this 400 metre route. As it was an emergency Matthew probably ran most of it and got there in a couple of minutes. Double that and add the time he was in reception and you get an all round time of about 10 minutes. If he did the trip twice as appears then you get 20 mins. If you then take the starting point of the discovery that Madeleine had gone at around 10.05 then Matthew must have set out shortly afterwards say at 10.10pm. Add the time taken for the two trips and you get to 10.30 which was when Gerry claims to have gone to reception.
From this it can be seen that Matthew must have spent most of the first half hour traipsing between the apartment and the main reception. I must say that in the circumstances I find it peculiar that Matthew had to go to main reception at all. Surely there was someone in authority who had the lingo to speak to police from the tapas ??
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Agreed there are three possible short cuts two of which go around or across a circular green, only Matthew and Gerry know which one they took. So let's get this straight. There is only one entrance to the pool area, gardens and tapas from the street and it is through the small reception building located just down from the McCanns apartment. It was open as clients were walking through it in order to do their checks. So are you saying that there was no staff in this reception? Could anyone wander through it unchallenged?
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There was no-one there when we went for a meal. I was a little worried about going through there, but it was plain sailing; no challenges ... nobody to challenge us.
Nobody as we went in and nobody as we left. We mooched around a bit, then ordered and ate a meal, so I guess our two trips thru the tapas reception were a little over an hour apart
Heri didn't stay at OC but he might know if anyone was there when he visited, or Catkins (Myths).
Did you go in that area Registrar? ... evening time particularly
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I cannot fathom why Matthew and Gerry spent so much time literally running up and down to main reception which was a quarter of a mile away when someone in authority at the tapas bar/restaurant could have easily relayed matters to main reception by phone??
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I cannot fathom why Matthew and Gerry spent so much time literally running up and down to main reception which was a quarter of a mile away when someone in authority at the tapas bar/restaurant could have easily relayed matters to main reception by phone??
Who do you think was in authority?
The chef, the barman or the waiter?
Remember the McCanns were the last customers at the Tapas.
There might have been a pot boy there doing the washing up of course.
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I cannot fathom why Matthew and Gerry spent so much time literally running up and down to main reception which was a quarter of a mile away when someone in authority at the tapas bar/restaurant could have easily relayed matters to main reception by phone??
Who do you think was in authority?
The chef, the barman or the waiter?
Remember the McCanns were the last customers at the Tapas.
There might have been a pot boy there doing the washing up of course.
In the early stages, at least, there was someone there because someone (cant remember his name) witnessed Gerry coming back and searching everywhere in the Tapas garden area (and the Tapas restaurant and bar, I guess)
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Agreed there are three possible short cuts two of which go around or across a circular green, only Matthew and Gerry know which one they took. The more pertinent issue for me is the claimed 8 minutes to travel this 400 metre route. As it was an emergency Matthew probably ran most of it and got there in a couple of minutes. Double that and add the time he was in reception and you get an all round time of about 10 minutes. If he did the trip twice as appears then you get 20 mins. If you then take the starting point of the discovery that Madeleine had gone at around 10.05 then Matthew must have set out shortly afterwards say at 10.10pm. Add the time taken for the two trips and you get to 10.30 which was when Gerry claims to have gone to reception.
From this it can be seen that Matthew must have spent most of the first half hour traipsing between the apartment and the main reception.
Which is what I would presume someone would be doing if the Reception staff were not reacting. They would make a second trip to emphasise the urgency.
As regards the two options.
I remain of the opinion that the natural reaction of an English holidaymaker when abroad and having an emergency to deal with is not to go to the bar/restaurant where there is no manager or receptionist as in this case and find a waiter/chef/barman or pot boy to deal with it but to the main reception even if it was one minute further from their room/apartment than the bar.
And taking Angelo's logic the difference between the timings would not have been great.
Tapas (45 secs + 6 minutes + 45 secs) x 2 = 15 mins
Reception (2 minutes + 6 minutes + 2 minutes) x 2 = 20 mins
But allowing for the potential surprise (as attested by Anne Guedes) at any odd request and the potential language difficulties of dealing with the non-fluent English of bar/restaurant staff then I suspect the time might actually have been longer going to the Tapas. It may indeed have taken that extra five minutes or so to make themselves clear and to explain the situation.
Plus there is the possibility that the McCanns and their friends were not even certain the Tapas had a direct line which could be used to make calls outside the complex. Many such ancillary sites in resort complexes only have telephones from which calls have to be directed via reception or the possibility of misuse would be too great.
And then would the McCanns and their friends have been certain that there would have been staff there?
I wonder at what time the Tapas staff knocked off from their duties for the night on that particular night?
I understand the McCanns were the last to dine there. They all left (except Diane) at 10.00. How long did she remain?
What did the Tapas staff then do? Were they still in the restaurant/kitchen or did they join in the search?
Would the McCanns or Matthew have even been certain to find someone/anyone present at the bar/restaurant by 10.20 or might they have been scouring the area round the pool/miniclub?
One last thought. Can someone enlighten me as to what this thread is supposed to achieve? We already know the choice that was made. There are perfectly valid reasons why the McCanns and Matthew would use Reception. What is the purpose of proving (even if that were possible) that a couple of minutes could have been shaved off the time involved? Will that help indicate something important in relation to what happened to Madeleine McCann and if so what is that something important?
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I cannot fathom why Matthew and Gerry spent so much time literally running up and down to main reception which was a quarter of a mile away when someone in authority at the tapas bar/restaurant could have easily relayed matters to main reception by phone??
Who do you think was in authority?
The chef, the barman or the waiter?
Remember the McCanns were the last customers at the Tapas.
There might have been a pot boy there doing the washing up of course.
Certainly there was someone in charge at the tapas/restaurant/crèche. My point was and still is that whoever that person in charge was should have taken overall control until the hotel manager and the resort manager arrived. That would have allowed Matthew to concentrate on the search and saved valuable minutes which were otherwise lost. The fact that this did not happen says much for Mark Warner management.
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So please tell me who was in charge. Was it the barman, the chef or the waiter? Or was there someone else present. If so please indicate who and give us the evidence.
I have read the translations and the statements. Your comment is quite interesting. This was not a hotel as most people are aware.
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there were at least three barmen/waiters at the Tapas at the time and the supervisor of the tapas complex also got there around 10 to 10 30
One of them, Joe had spoken to Matt and Dave when they were searching,and found out what happened, he then went to the Tapas restaraunt and told Ricardo what was going on and suggested he ring reception to ask them to call the police which he did, whether the Tapas staff took it on themselves or whether Matt possibly suggested they do is unclear
The restaraunt was open till around midnight every night and the Mccanns were not the last diners, the Sperreys were
I also doubt that waiters and barmen employed in a holiday resort mainly of Brits would not speak English and I also doubt the restaraunt had no landline phone
All waiter and barmen,and other staff statements can be found on mccannpjfiles under the tag Tapas employees, under the section called english translations
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TRANSLATIONS.htm
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Red>> Some of them were English but had Portuguese parentage so probably could speak the lingo well enough to phone the cops. Joe was such a person and later returned to the UK. Joe (Jeronimo) asked Ricardo to call the police.
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Red>> Some of them were English but had Portuguese parents so probably could speak the lingo well enough to phone the cops. Joe was such a person and later returned to the UK. Joe (Jeronimo) asked Ricardo to call the police.
Yes, thank you, and Im sure as in many countries english is taught at schools too, its THE mainly international language
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Somebody did call reception from the Tapas bar, whether this was on the request of the group or an initiative they took themselves, isn't clear.
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Ricardo, end of September, states he doesn't remember, may be may be not. Joe asked him to call. Why didn't Joe call himself ? This proxy behaviour is as generalized as extraordinary.
In any case, let's suppose Ricardo, on Joe's solicitation, called the main reception, the receptionist stated he called immediately but he didn't, according to the register.
What can we deduce from this that could contribute to explain what happened to Madeleine ? Not much I'm afraid.
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The reason I posted yesterday, the map which has been reposted above was to highlight how ludicrous the claim was that it would take Matthew eight minutes to go to the OC Club 24 hr Reception
The reality is that such a run/jog or even fast walk would not take eight minutes or anything like eight minutes for a fit person. It would take between one and two minutes (especially with so much of it being quite steeply downhill)
Just to point out that the fastest a distance of 400 metres has ever been covered is 44.18 seconds ... the world record held by American Michael Johnson
Johnson was sprinting with no obstacles or corners to turn ... not to mention that he was an athlete at the peak of his fitness ... and it took him almost a minute
I think the timings being assumed here should be reviewed in light of that
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I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, to the main reception essentially, looking for her at that time
That's what I tried to copy... There are many bushes and at the bottom 3 possible narrow paths. It took me 8 minutes.
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Just to point out that the fastest a distance of 400 metres has ever been covered is 44.18 seconds ... the world record held by American Michael Johnson
Johnson was sprinting with no obstacles or corners to turn ... not to mention that he was an athlete at the peak of his fitness ... and it took him almost a minute
I think the timings being assumed here should be reviewed in light of that
LOL good point
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Just to point out that the fastest a distance of 400 metres has ever been covered is 44.18 seconds ... the world record held by American Michael Johnson
Johnson was sprinting with no obstacles or corners to turn ... not to mention that he was an athlete at the peak of his fitness ... and it took him almost a minute
I think the timings being assumed here should be reviewed in light of that
Not really. Before I posted the figure of 2 minutes I did some research online and it is in fact very generous.
Remember that the distance is actually not 400 metres but around 350 by the main road and 320 metres by the shortcuts.
Also remember that the route is over a significant part quite steeply downhill unlike a running track.
Thirdly, remember that Matthew was a fit individual used to regular exercise.
And finally look at these pages.
http://training.runinthesun.com/veterans_training.asp
http://www.menshealth.com/deltafit/400-meter-challenge
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4427723
I prefer to have evidence for my posts rather than speculate.
Is there any evidence which suggests 2 minutes downhill for a distance of 350 metres is in fact excessive for a fit person?
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LOL good point
It isn't a very good point though. It is just speculation without evidence.
There is evidence in the post above which shows that 350 metres in 2 minutes is perfectly possible for a fit person such as Matthew.
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I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, to the main reception essentially, looking for her at that time
That's what I tried to copy... There are many bushes and at the bottom 3 possible narrow paths. It took me 8 minutes.
People can run/jog and look at the same time. The time of 2 minutes to cover that distance by a fit man is perfectly possible as evidenced in the post above. 8 minutes is quite ludicrous for someone who was clearly in a hurry.
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I cannot fathom why Matthew and Gerry spent so much time literally running up and down to main reception which was a quarter of a mile away when someone in authority at the tapas bar/restaurant could have easily relayed matters to main reception by phone??
This is being picky, but I think that it is important that we get the distances right, otherwise the wrong distance will become a myth.
It was less than 275 yards by my measurements, and that is less than one sixth of a mile
ie less than a third of a mile there and back
Sorry to be so picky, but until I pointed out that measureing could be done using GE it was blatently lied by [ censored word] that the distance of the tapas from 5A was anything up to about 250 yards, whereas it is only about 50metres crow flies and 75 metres on foot.
Even Kate got the distance wrong in her book cos there had been so much talk exagerating the distance that seemingly she believed it.
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Not really. Before I posted the figure of 2 minutes I did some research online and it is in fact very generous.
Remember that the distance is actually not 400 metres but around 350 by the main road and 320 metres by the shortcuts.
Also remember that the route is over a significant part quite steeply downhill unlike a running track.
Thirdly, remember that Matthew was a fit individual used to regular exercise.
And finally look at these pages.
http://training.runinthesun.com/veterans_training.asp
http://www.menshealth.com/deltafit/400-meter-challenge
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4427723
I prefer to have evidence for my posts rather than speculate.
Is there any evidence which suggests 2 minutes downhill for a distance of 350 metres is in fact excessive for a fit person?
There is evidence that the fastest man in the world ever over that distance took almost a minute to run it ... he was in full sprint with no obstacles to negotiate
That is an indisputable fact
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let's get our distances right:
I posted this, just, in the more or less parallel thread,
"Why not report the abduction at the Tapas Bar rather than Main Reception? "
It needs to be here as well
This is being picky, but I think that it is important that we get the distances right, otherwise the wrong distance will become a myth.
It was less than 275 yards by my measurements, and that is less than one sixth of a mile
ie less than a third of a mile there and back
Sorry to be so picky, but until I pointed out that measureing could be done using GE it was blatently lied by [ censored word] that the distance of the tapas from 5A was anything up to about 250 yards, whereas it is only about 50metres crow flies and 75 metres on foot.
Even Kate got the distance wrong in her book cos there had been so much talk exagerating the distance that seemingly she believed it.
So please lets forget about the 400 yards, which is clearly not likely.
More likely 275 yards via the short cut
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let's getr our distances right:
I posteed this just in the more or less parallel thread. It needs to be here as well
So please lets forget about the 400 yards, which is clearly not likely
Isn't there a sign outside the tapas area secondary reception saying 'Main reception 400 metres' ? .... I'm sure there is, if it's not on this thread then it's on the original one
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There is evidence that the fastest man in the world ever over that distance took almost a minute to run it ... he was in full sprint with no obstacles to negotiate
That is an indisputable fact
Not correct.
The actual time for 400 metres is 43 seconds so would be around 38 seconds or less for the distance in this debate.
But that is utterly irrelevant to the fact that average fit people can cover the distance in under two minutes.
The evidence is in the posts I have made.
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Isn't there a sign outside the tapas area secondary reception saying 'Main reception 400 metres' ? .... I'm sure there is, if it's not on this thread then it's on the original one
There is such a sign and if you travel from the corner which is beyond Apartment 5A right into the car park of the Reception on the right hand side of the road as you would in Portugal the distance is 390 metres.
However that is not the distance any sane person would run. The pavement on the left is 350 metres.
No matter how much nit picking is done or how many ridiculous times the 8 minute to cover 350 metres downhill in a hurry is churned out, the fact remains that the distance can be covered by a fit person in under 2 minutes.
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There is evidence that the fastest man in the world ever over that distance took almost a minute to run it ... he was in full sprint with no obstacles to negotiate
That is an indisputable fact
I can remember Roger Bannister and the four minute mile years ago, so that is I minute for 440 yards. Times have improved and shorter distances are run faster per yard.
How long for 275 yards, Icabod? THen I suggest we double that time because our runner aint Roger Bannister and the route is not straight (altho downhill)
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let's get our distances right:
I posted this, just, in the more or less parallel thread,
"Why not report the abduction at the Tapas Bar rather than Main Reception? "
It needs to be here as well
So please lets forget about the 400 yards, which is clearly not likely
Thank you Sadie. Not sure of the route you took but that is even less than the Google Earth measurement, possibly because you remained strictly on pavements and the GE measurement is very close to the road edges.
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Perhaps I had better check it. You have nmade me unsure. Did it earlier today. Hope I am remembering it properly
Will check immediately
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Before we continue with the debate about how long it would take to cover the distance, I suppose we should verify what the distance is ... we have reached the point where it has now been reduced from 400 metres to 250 metres
Where is John ? ... he's good at this sort of stuff
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Before we continue with the debate about how long it would take to cover the distance, I suppose we should verify what the distance is ... we have reached the point where it has now been reduced from 400 metres to 250 metres
Where is John ? ... he's good at this sort of stuff
John is probably in a coma. I nearly am.
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Before we continue with the debate about how long it would take to cover the distance, I suppose we should verify what the distance is ... we have reached the point where it has now been reduced from 400 metres to 250 metres
Where is John ? ... he's good at this sort of stuff
Might be 250 as crows fly
>@@(*&)
@)(++(*
Maybe they told a crow to go down there
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Before we continue with the debate about how long it would take to cover the distance, I suppose we should verify what the distance is ... we have reached the point where it has now been reduced from 400 metres to 250 metres
Where is John ? ... he's good at this sort of stuff
But Matthew wasn't jogging or doing a marathon, he was mainly trying to find Madeleine between bushes and shadows and stairs all along the path.
It was a good idea to go to the creche, because on the first night, when they all had dinner together at the Millenium, they first passed by the main reception. Madeleine could have remembered that.
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But Matthew wasn't jogging or doing a marathon, he was mainly trying to find Madeleine between bushes and shadows and stairs all along the path.
It was a good idea to go to the creche, because on the first night, when they all had dinner together at the Millenium, they first passed by the main reception. Madeleine could have remembered that.
Millenium restaraunt was no where near main reception though anne was it, couldntt be further apart, one was down south the other far north
Eta ignore me, i forgot the first night theywent from one place to the other
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Millenium restaraunt was no where near main reception though anne was it, couldntt be further apart, one was down south the other far north
I know, but likely because they weren't yet familiar with the place, having arrived a few hours before, they didn't go straight forward from the G5 to the Millenium, but met at the main reception from where they might have been driven by minibus to the Millenium.
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Before we continue with the debate about how long it would take to cover the distance, I suppose we should verify what the distance is ... we have reached the point where it has now been reduced from 400 metres to 250 metres
Where is John ? ... he's good at this sort of stuff
Me too, I am good at measuring. John and I are both from roughly the same technical background. I just cant post the GE images.
I have been yelling 50 metres from tapas to 5A, crow flies, for over3 years now, but I didn't know how to post the image... so no-one accepted my measurements unfortunately.
I have checked and from 5A gate to the reception. It is 270 yards or slightly less. That is cutting diagonally across the road and skimming corners as someone in a huge hurry might do. I have used alleyways and taken the path right underneath the roundish green lawn as a short cut.
So 270 yards, but that is skimming corners, so lets be generous and say 275 yards
I suggest we settle on 275 yards. Is that OK ?
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Might be 250 as crows fly
>@@(*&)
@)(++(*
Maybe they told a crow to go down there
8((()*/ Good guestimation Red 8@??)(
275 yards = just over 251 metres for our foreign friends.
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I know, but likely because they weren't yet familiar with the place, having arrived a few hours before, they didn't go straight forward from the G5 to the Millenium, but met at the main reception from where they might have been driven by minibus to the Millenium.
I dont know what makes you think that Anne. have never seen a suggestion of it anywhere.
And it proved too much with the little ones.
Can you imagine trying to carry three crying overwrought kiddies back after the meal.... or persuading them to walk uphill to the millenium when they were zonked out ? two would be difficult enough, but three !!!
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Me too, I am good at measuring. John and I are both from roughly the same technical background. I just cant post the GE images.
I have been yelling 50 metres from tapas to 5A, crow flies, for over3 years now, but I didn't know how to post the image... so no-one accepted my measurements unfortunately.
I have checked and from 5A gate to the reception. It is 270 yards or slightly less. That is cutting diagonally across the road and skimming corners as someone in a huge hurry might do. I have used alleyways and taken the path right underneath the roundish green lawn as a short cut.
So 270 yards, but that is skimming corners, so lets be generous and say 275 yards
I suggest we settle on 275 yards. Is that OK ?
I'm not convinced sadie ... just looking at the map tells me that the distance between the McCann's apartment and the Main reception is more than four times the distance between the apartment and the tapas bar
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I'm not convinced sadie ... just looking at the map tells me that the distance between the McCann's apartment and the Main reception is more than four times the distance between the apartment and the tapas bar
definitely
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But Matthew wasn't jogging or doing a marathon, he was mainly trying to find Madeleine between bushes and shadows and stairs all along the path.
It was a good idea to go to the creche, because on the first night, when they all had dinner together at the Millenium, they first passed by the main reception. Madeleine could have remembered that.
I dont understand that Anne. Why would they go to the creche, and why did they go to the main reception.
How do you know he was mainly ltrying to find Madeleine, rather than running as fast as he could?
Are you trying to justify your eight minutes?
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I'm not convinced sadie ... just looking at the map tells me that the distance between the McCann's apartment and the Main reception is more than four times the distance between the apartment and the tapas bar
Do it yourself then Icabod.
I actually posted how to read distances on here before but for some reason it seems to have been taken down. Such a useful tool
1) Open GEarth.
2) identify the gate to 5A and identify the main reception [I suggest that you print the larger clearer map off from the forum, with these points clearly marked ... for reference]
3) see the blue band across the top. There is a short stubby rule standing up right on that blue band
4) Click on this
5) a box will come down. In this instance you will need to click on 'path'
6) Very carefully click on the gate to 5A
7) then very carefully click as close as you can to the various places that the route changes direction. Work thru it , one by one, clicking at each change of direction. I did the shortest route possible. People cut corners, they dont waste steps when they are in a hurry
As you do it you will see that an increasing distance appears in the box, but it might be shown in feet or miles or what ever. It is simple to change which measuring units you want. I will leave you to work that out
Good luck. It is a bit difficult to do the first time, but gets easier with practice.
By the way the reception is about 2/3 of the way along the main road front of the Reception building [Rua Direita from memory]
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How do you know he was mainly ltrying to find Madeleine, rather than running as fast as he could?
1) empathy perhaps
2) telephone is faster
I volunteered to go up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the restaurant
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Phew, thanks for answering.
I was feeling a bit lonely .
Soz, I have been a bit busy. Am very slow typing.
Yep I am not really sure either but as it is one area that I do have expertise in, I thought that I would contribute.
I cant stand incorrect info up either. It's all to be with having been an engineer I think. We worked from datums and to very precise measurements.
sadie x
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It is bizarre that one would jog 400 metres and not just find someone to ring main reception,beforehand oh well, and matts rogatory interview is pile of bull saying he was at main reception at five past ten when gerry says kate didnt comeback till 10 15!!!!!!
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1) empathy perhaps
2) telephone is faster
But he had been given a specific task to deal with and the sooner that task was fulfilled the idea was the the search would be more comprehensive and would include professionals.
Putting myself in his position, at that moment his priority was to call the police and to get them involved. Of course, running/jogging down that hill and round the corner or along the path to the Reception he would have been looking in every possible direction as well.
It is madness to believe that he would, when given a vital task to fulfil, do what others were doing around him and spend time searching bushes.
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It is bizarre that one would jog 400 metres and not just find someone to ring main reception, oh well
In your mind it may be but if I recall, even having "read the files" you still had no idea where Reception even was.
Oh well.
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it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just woken up and he thought she's probably wandered off or something like that and you thought maybe you're right, can you please, it was , it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, he'd ring, but you had to stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point
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it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just woken up and he thought she's probably wandered off or something like that and you thought maybe you're right, can you please, it was , it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, he'd ring, but you had to stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point
Matthew oldfield oh dear oh dear didnt even make sure police were called what a numpty Same as him IMAGINING all sorts of things in the mccanns flat that were not there, I thnk SY should have a word
Nite all
8((()*/
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Do it yourself then Icabod.
I actually posted how to read distances on here before but for some reason it seems to have been taken down. Such a useful tool
1) Open GEarth.
2) identify the gate to 5A and identify the main reception [I suggest that you print the larger clearer map off from the forum, with these points clearly marked ... for reference]
3) see the blue band across the top. There is a short stubby rule standing up right on that blue band
4) Click on this
5) a box will come down. In this instance you will need to click on 'path'
6) Very carefully click on the gate to 5A
7) then very carefully click as close as you can to the various places that the route changes direction. Work thru it , one by one, clicking at each change of direction. I did the shortest route possible. People cut corners, they dont waste steps when they are in a hurry
As you do it you will see that an increasing distance appears in the box, but it might be shown in feet or miles or what ever. It is simple to change which measuring units you want. I will leave you to work that out
Good luck. It is a bit difficult to do the first time, but gets easier with practice.
By the way the reception is about 2/3 of the way along the main road front of the Reception building [Rua Direita from memory]
I must say this sadie ... I don't need to do calculations ( or be an engineer ) to see that the distance between the McCann's apartment and the main reception is more than four times the distance of that between the apartment and the tapas bar
It is immediately clear at a glance of the map
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Have you got a stretched screen? One that is wider than average?
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Have you got a stretched screen? One that is wider than average?
Sadie, could you possibly do a description of the route you took, then I will do a GE image. The image will only take seconds if I have the route.
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Agreed there are three possible short cuts two of which go around or across a circular green, only Matthew and Gerry know which one they took. So let's get this straight. There is only one entrance to the pool area, gardens and tapas from the street and it is through the small reception building located just down from the McCanns apartment. It was open as clients were walking through it in order to do their checks. So are you saying that there was no staff in this reception? Could anyone wander through it unchallenged?
Sadie who was there for an evening meal at one point has posted this as a fact.
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First thing
When I visited the tapas restaurant and had a meal I had to pass thru the tapas twice, once in and once out. Maybe an hour and a bit between hgoing thru
There was no sign of anyone on duty there. No-one at all. This was in June/July 2010
Heri or Registrar might have been there too. Maybe it was just during the day that a receptionist was there to keep strangers away from sharing the guests facilities, the pool etc.. I wouldn't know that.
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OK gilet has said tat she will help me post this route for Icabod and anyone else
So here are the instructions:
Basically
1) I cut diagonally across the road from 5A gate to close to the corner of the little car park opposite the tapas reception,
2) Then I went eastwards until i came to the long alleyway, noth -> south and turned south
3) Then I turned left and took the pathway immediately below the round green lawn, cutting off the westrern corner.
4) At the end of that I turned right in a southerly direction and keeping really close to the corner, left and I went straight to the reception
That is about 2/3 of the distance north-eastwards across the south-eastern face of the building and actually on the main road.
I took the shortest way that i could, not wasting any steps
I think it actually was 268 yards but I rounded it up to 275 yards.
Just over a minute for a decent runner
Part of the path may, or may not be, across private property but I cant remember any gates.and I cant see any on GEarth either. I think it might all be part of OC because the long N-> S alleyway is Aldeamente Ocean Club. That name used to be on GEarth but mysteriously vanished along with all the other raod names in that vicinity.
I also wonder if the first half of this route is as described by the Carpenters as they made their way home from the Tapas ... and heard the name Madeleine Madeleine murmured/whispered.
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Is this the actual route Sadie? It seems to match the distance you quoted and is significantly less than the 350 metres going round the main road.
275 yards is in fact 251 metres.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/sd4790_zps4cb538da.jpg)
And OC reception is on the front of the building here.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/ocrec790_zps161b1f91.jpg)
not at the Palm Bay door around the corner next to the car park as indicated by another poster.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c74907_zps1e5b388a.jpg)
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I have added more points to the path which allows for better cornering which a person in a hurry would certainly do.
The comparison between the two distances is very interesting.
In fact if Matthew knew of this shortcut then the difference between reporting at the Tapas bar and at Reception
would be only 194 yards or 179 metres
268 yards against 72 yards.
245 metres against 66 metres.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_71_zpsfb3f566d.jpg)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_72_zps58f3a150.jpg)
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BEACH_OUTING.htm
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I have added more points to the path which allows for better cornering which a person in a hurry would certainly do.
The comparison between the two distances is very interesting.
In fact if Matthew knew of this shortcut then the difference between reporting at the Tapas bar and at Reception
would be only 194 yards or 179 metres
268 yards against 72 yards.
245 metres against 66 metres.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_71_zpsfb3f566d.jpg)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_72_zps58f3a150.jpg)
Actually gilet, I think you can add another 15 yards for the distance to the tapas. I think that it is unlikely that any outside line telephone would be in the outside restaurant, because it is only a temporary type structure.
Cant say for certain but I would expect a proper land line (if there is one) to be inside the properly constructed Tapas bar and restaurant.
So that means that the distance to the properr Reception is 268 yards and to the Tapas bar is 87 yards, meaning a difference of 181 yards or 165.5 metres.
And how do we know if Gerry considered the reception people to be more on the ball than the restaurant people. We cant knowthe answer to that.
Almost certainly the reception will have been manned by fluent English speakers, whereas restaurant staffs English is often restricted to the sort of words used about contents of meals etc. ... or so we have found on holidays abroad.
I think Gerry made the right choice. Go to the top, to people who are used to dealing with emergencies and speak both langauges fluently.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BEACH_OUTING.htm
Thank you for that.
It indicates very clearly where Reception is.
Though why the PJ should call it the side of the Reception Building is a bit baffling when even their own photo makes it clear that it is the front. Could another translation be "the arcade running alongside the reception building" and that explains it?
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/qed_zpseffd0069.jpg)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/qed2b_zpsb51c9cd0.jpg)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/qed4a_zps5683bfa2.jpg)
The children's club which is above Reception is accessed via this pathway.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/childrenscluba_zpsfbce3fee.jpg)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/childrensclub2_zps3e9f8b1c.jpg)
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I must say this sadie ... I don't need to do calculations ( or be an engineer ) to see that the distance between the McCann's apartment and the main reception is more than four times the distance of that between the apartment and the tapas bar
It is immediately clear at a glance of the map
Icabod, I would very much like your apology
That was a sneering comment and an attempted put down. I have proved you got it wrong
Perhaps YOU would benefit by being an engineer ? 8(0(*
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So Gilet was wrong after all...now that's funny.
This now brings me back to my original question of two days ago when I asked if anyone knew if the covered walkway can be used to gain access to the steps which go up to the Mini Club. I will repost the photo which I took down earlier when Gilet wrongly inferred that the entrance to the childrens club was through the Main Reception on Rua Direita.
I have also checked the footpath distances as requested by Sadie this morning and I can confirm that the Tapas Bar is 71 metres away from the patio belonging to apartment 5a and the Mini Club is 250 metres away by shortest route known to us at this point in time.
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I've lost track of what we are trying to prove here. Can someone remind me please?
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I've lost track of what we are trying to prove here. Can someone remind me please?
We have to understand the distances involved before we can consider the question. We started out when someone posted a photograph of the Ocean Club sign attached to the resort wall which announces that Main reception is 400 metres away. We now know from going through this exercise that this is misleading. Main Reception is only 250 metres away by the shortest route. Another myth, albeit a trivial one, dispelled.
To answer your question Benice. We are trying to establish why Matthew had to spend some 20 valuable minutes running up and down to the main reception when someone in charge in the tapas could have done all of it instantly by telephone?
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We have to understand the distances involved before we can consider the question. We started out when someone posted a photograph of the Ocean Club sign attached to the resort wall which announces that Main reception is 400 metres away. We now know from going through this exercise that this is misleading. Main Reception is only 250 metres away by the shortest route. Another myth, albeit a trivial one, dispelled.
Thank you John.
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So Gilet was wrong after all...now that's funny.
This now brings me back to my original question of two days ago when I asked if anyone knew if the covered walkway can be used to gain access to the steps which go up to the Mini Club. I will repost the photo which I had took down earlier when Gilet wrongly inferred that the entrance to the childs club was through the Main Reception on Rua Direita.
I have also checked the footpath distances as requested by Sadie this morning and I can confirm that the Tapas Bar is 71 metres away from the patio belonging to apartment 5a and the Mini Club is 250 metres away by shortest route known to us at this point in time.
John have you read the above posts and also a VERY early post? Here gilet clearly proves that HER distance of 275 yards is correct, in fact she got it down to 268 yards by very careful measurement. Other people wre saying 400 metres
Gilet WAS correct ... NOT wrong. She was talking about the distance to the main reception NOT the distance to the mini club
Where has the min club come from?
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the Ocean Club sign attached to the resort wall which announces that Main reception is 400 metres away. We now know from going through this exercise that this is misleading. Main Reception is only 250 metres away by the shortest route.
For a car, it is about 400m far. I think it's more than 250m by the shortest route, but never mind. The fact is that Matthew took time going there for no result on the telephone issue, but at least confirming Madeleine wasn't on that route.
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Glad we agree on the distances 8((()*/ even if you are a bit skeptical of demonstrated distances with Johns, gilets and my confirmation.
What do you mean "with no results on the telephone issue?
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Sorry Sadie, too much happening at the same time. @)(++(*
The distances are 71m to the tapas and about 251m to reception by shortest routes on foot.
I will post the GE plans shortly.
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Why do you think Gilet is wrong and why do you think, as a moderator, it is funny?
He implied that the Mini Club was accessed via Main Reception.
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So Gilet was wrong after all...now that's funny.
This now brings me back to my original question of two days ago when I asked if anyone knew if the covered walkway can be used to gain access to the steps which go up to the Mini Club. I will repost the photo which I took down earlier when Gilet wrongly inferred that the entrance to the childrens club was through the Main Reception on Rua Direita.
I have also checked the footpath distances as requested by Sadie this morning and I can confirm that the Tapas Bar is 71 metres away from the patio belonging to apartment 5a and the Mini Club is 250 metres away by shortest route known to us at this point in time.
It was Matthew Oldfield who was asked to go to the main reception to report Madeleine missing
Matthew Oldfield had never been to the Mini Club above the 24 hour reception, and would therefore have never come across the 'short cut' ( he never needed to )
We should, logically, assume therefore, that he took the normal route ( the long way round ) as the McCanns themselves had done for several days when transfering Madeleine to and from the Mini Club ( until they became aware of the shorter route )
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It was Matthew Oldfield who was asked to go to the main reception to report Madeleine missing
Matthew Oldfield had never been to the Mini Club above the 24 hour reception, and would therefore have never come across the 'short cut' ( he never needed to )
We should, logically, assume therefore, that he took the normal route ( the long way round ) as the McCanns themselves had done for several days when transfering Madeleine to and from the Mini Club ( until they became aware of the shorter route )
I asked for an apology from you Icabod. See earlier post
from: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 01:09:23 AM
I must say this sadie ... I don't need to do calculations ( or be an engineer ) to see that the distance between the McCann's apartment and the main reception is more than four times the distance of that between the apartment and the tapas bar
It is immediately clear at a glance of the map
Icabod, I would very much like your apology
That was a sneering comment and an attempted put down. I have proved you got it wrong
Perhaps YOU would benefit by being an engineer
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It was Matthew Oldfield who was asked to go to the main reception to report Madeleine missing
Matthew Oldfield had never been to the Mini Club above the 24 hour reception, and would therefore have never come across the 'short cut' ( he never needed to )
We should, logically, assume therefore, that he took the normal route ( the long way round ) as the McCanns themselves had done for several days when transfering Madeleine to and from the Mini Club ( until they became aware of the shorter route )
Well spotted Icabodcrane. This could be a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. If Matthew did go the longish way around even more time would have been wasted. 8@??)(
We are yet to hear any plausible responses as to why Matthew and Gerald were required to go all the way down to reception after 10pm.
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I asked for an apology from you Icabod. See earlier post
Icabod, I would very much like your apology
That was a sneering comment and an attempted put down. I have proved you got it wrong
Perhaps YOU would benefit by being an engineer
I'll read back sadie ... I didn't see your demand
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IF being the operative word.
A little word with so much potential? 8(0(*
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It was Matthew Oldfield who was asked to go to the main reception to report Madeleine missing
Matthew Oldfield had never been to the Mini Club above the 24 hour reception, and would therefore have never come across the 'short cut' ( he never needed to )
We should, logically, assume therefore, that he took the normal route ( the long way round ) as the McCanns themselves had done for several days when transfering Madeleine to and from the Mini Club ( until they became aware of the shorter route )
no logic about it Icabod. He would need to go to reception from time to time. Much of the route is the shortest way to the beach. Parents would prefer the alleyways to the street where cars might appear at any time. Wouldn't you?
Just why is it so important to you, that the longer route was taken ?
Even to insulting me professionally, and inferring that I wasn't to be trusted. You needed the word of a man, instead of a woman .. sexist
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Maybe Matthew got a lift to reception by one of the staff members. Anyone think of that?
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I'll read back sadie ... I didn't see your demand
The original was NOT a demand. It was a request.
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Maybe Matthew got a lift to reception by one of the staff members. Anyone think of that?
Well it was a quarter of a mile away ... a lift in a car would have preferable for sure
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Well it was a quarter of a mile away ... a lift in a car would have been preferable for sure
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Maybe Matthew got a lift to reception by one of the staff members. Anyone think of that?
Gilet has proven all that she said, yet she is still getting pulled down and 'stamped on' at every opportunity.
Personally, I think it is because she is Soooo clever, wise and knowledgeable that the [ censored word] and some of the blokes cant take it. >@@(*&)
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Well it was a quarter of a mile away ... a lift in a car would have preferable for sure
lost the argument, so change the boundaries, eh?
Anything is possible, but the discussion has been about the relative distances and the likely route, not about unlikely things.
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Who went to Reception and when, to get Poster printed? Wasn't this done on that night?
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So Gilet was wrong after all...now that's funny.
This now brings me back to my original question of two days ago when I asked if anyone knew if the covered walkway can be used to gain access to the steps which go up to the Mini Club. I will repost the photo which I took down earlier when Gilet wrongly inferred that the entrance to the childrens club was through the Main Reception on Rua Direita.
I have also checked the footpath distances as requested by Sadie this morning and I can confirm that the Tapas Bar is 71 metres away from the patio belonging to apartment 5a and the Mini Club is 250 metres away by shortest route known to us at this point in time.
Poppycock.
Having never claimed that the entrance to the miniclub is through the Reception on Rua Direita, I would ask you to withdraw that remark and the statement that I was wrong in making it.
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Maybe Matthew got a lift to reception by one of the staff members. Anyone think of that?
Any reason why he would have failed to mention so in his statement to police or why the staff member would also have failed to mention it too?
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We have to understand the distances involved before we can consider the question. We started out when someone posted a photograph of the Ocean Club sign attached to the resort wall which announces that Main reception is 400 metres away. We now know from going through this exercise that this is misleading. Main Reception is only 250 metres away by the shortest route. Another myth, albeit a trivial one, dispelled.
To answer your question Benice. We are trying to establish why Matthew had to spend some 20 valuable minutes running up and down to the main reception when someone in charge in the tapas could have done all of it instantly by telephone?
I don't believe there has ever been a claim that Matthew HAD to do any such thing.
The fact is he chose and Gerry chose to use the Main reception as the conduit of the request to phone the police.
The real issue is why they would choose to do so.
Such reasons include the fact that the extra distance is not great, they may have been unaware that the bar even had a direct outside line, they may have been unaware whether anyone would still be at the bar whereas reception was 24hrs, they knew that the bar staff command of English was not great and English people do not like dealing with non-English speakers, and of course the fact is that it is not actually normal to approach waiters and barmen when you want help in a resort and Reception is only 1 minute further away.
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He implied that the Mini Club was accessed via Main Reception.
I have never claimed such a thing and do not believe I have ever deliberately or even mistakenly implied such a thing.
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Can someone attend to who got The Posters printed and at what time. It must have required a visit by someone.
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It was Matthew Oldfield who was asked to go to the main reception to report Madeleine missing
Matthew Oldfield had never been to the Mini Club above the 24 hour reception, and would therefore have never come across the 'short cut' ( he never needed to )
We should, logically, assume therefore, that he took the normal route ( the long way round ) as the McCanns themselves had done for several days when transfering Madeleine to and from the Mini Club ( until they became aware of the shorter route )
Matthew Oldfield would have been at Reception to book in. He may have been at Reception on other occasions. He may have accompanied others either to the mini club, to Reception or to/from the beach via this area.
It is absurd to simply presume that he did not know the short cut.
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Well spotted Icabodcrane. This could be a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. If Matthew did go the longish way around even more time would have been wasted. 8@??)(
We are yet to hear any plausible responses as to why Matthew and Gerald were required to go all the way down to reception after 10pm.
No one required them to do so as you mistakenly claim.
There are many plausible reasons why they would choose to do so.
For examples read my post above.
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A little word with so much potential? 8(0(*
A little word which hides a guess in fact.
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Maybe Matthew got a lift to reception by one of the staff members. Anyone think of that?
Possible of course but unlikely as there is no reference to it in any of the staff statements.
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Well spotted Icabodcrane. This could be a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. If Matthew did go the longish way around even more time would have been wasted. 8@??)(
We are yet to hear any plausible responses as to why Matthew and Gerald were required to go all the way down to reception after 10pm.
Why is it a good spot, Admin? Mathew knew where Madeleine went to Nursery.
A better spot, it wasn't Gerry, that first asked Mathew to ring the police.
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten".
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Who went to Reception and when, to get Poster printed? Wasn't this done on that night?
I believe something of the kind was done that night. Yes.
The absurdity being proposed here is that people would choose to relay a complex message to the police via a barman who may or may not have had a direct outside phone line and certainly would not find the message easy to understand because he was not fluent in English when people who were fluent in English and would certainly have an outside line and who would be best place to contact senior management were only about ONE MINUTE further away. The possibility that Matthew/Gerry or whoever believed that it might have taken more than a minute to get the message across to the barman/waiter or chef doesn't even occur to these people.
They seriously expect readers to think that it would have been normal to IGNORE the fluent (in English) receptionist with the certain phone to try to find a waiter whose English was not good to convey this important message to the police.
The whole premise of the thread is utterly absurd.
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Can someone attend to who got The Posters printed and at what time. It must have required a visit by someone.
Here you are, Eleanor.
We found a picture of Madeleine but we couldn’t print it off. Cat or one of the nannies said that they had a printer and took the camera away to get some photos copied. A copy of the photo was given directly to the Police, someone from the Mark Warner staff made a poster- but I do not know who that was. (page eight)
I am not sure who informed the authorities or media of Madeleine’s disappearance but Gerry may have informed the authorities along with Matt. As for the media I think Rachael called a friend who works at the BBC.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
Date 02-10-2007
Place: Ocean Club
Executing Officers: Paolo Ferreira and Ricardo Paiva
On this date, at 15.00 we went to the Ocean Club where we were received by the Maintenance and Service Manager, Silvia Baptista, and by the Mark Warner director, John Hill. We asked them to show us all the printers and photocopiers existing at the OC, which were operational at the time of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and that were used to print colour copies of Madeleines photo.
Silvia Baptista informed us that at the request of John Hill and his wife D****, hundreds of colour copies of a photo of Madeleine McCann were printed on 4th May 2007 with the aim of distributing them in Pda L and Lagos. For this purpose a colour photocopier, Toshiba, in the main OC reception was used as well as an HP laser printer, HP Color Laserjet 2840 located at a desk at the Ocean Country company, a colour laser printer Epsom Aculaser C1100 located on the desk of the administrative secretary and a colour laser printer HP Color Laserjet 1600 located on John Hills desk.
On his part, John Hill informed us that the printing of large quantities of Madeleines photo was carried out by himself with the help of his wife, at the request of Russell O'Brien, a member of the McCann's group of friends, John Hill stated that the photograph the colour prints were made from a mobile data disk of the 'memory stick' kind that Russell O'Brien gave him on the morning of 4th May.
They both stipulated that these were the only colour printers and photocopiers in existence at the Ocean Club and that there was no other place with the capacity for colour printing.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POSTERS.htm
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Thank you, DCI.
So this was done before they all went to The Police Station to give statements. Let's see what anyone can make of that. I can't think of anything at the moment, but no doubt someone will.
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It looks like Matthew was literally all over Praia da Luz that night. In addition to visiting the main reception twice he also visited the Millennium Restaurant (now renamed the Mirage) and the beach.
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'.
00.51.10 4078 'Quite quick then''
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn't in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the restaurant, so we'd only been at the initial welcoming, that was the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because the food wasn't great there, it wasn't quite up to the MARK WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that's why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she'd have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
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Some members might be somewhat surprised at how far the Millennium Restaurant actually was from the Ocean Club Garden complex where the Tapas-9 group were staying, a distance of some 510metres.
(http://i.imgur.com/hQ3XnGu.jpg)
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Thanks for that interview with Matthew, I hadn't seen that before
So inbetween his two visits to reception, Mathew had covered the mile long two-way journey to the Millenium restaurant and been to the beach and back ( what is the distance between the beach and the apartment ? )
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Madeleine might have gone to the Millenium restaraunt where she went the once? Instead of the tapas complex where she went every single day? Right, Matthew
I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, snip
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"....Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing"
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Madeleine might have gone to the Millenium restaraunt where she went the once? Instead of the tapas complex where she went every single day? Right, Matthew
Don't be silly. They were looking anywhere they could think of.
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I believe something of the kind was done that night. Yes.
The absurdity being proposed here is that people would choose to relay a complex message to the police via a barman who may or may not have had a direct outside phone line and certainly would not find the message easy to understand because he was not fluent in English when people who were fluent in English and would certainly have an outside line and who would be best place to contact senior management were only about ONE MINUTE further away. The possibility that Matthew/Gerry or whoever believed that it might have taken more than a minute to get the message across to the barman/waiter or chef doesn't even occur to these people.
They seriously expect readers to think that it would have been normal to IGNORE the fluent (in English) receptionist with the certain phone to try to find a waiter whose English was not good to convey this important message to the police.
The whole premise of the thread is utterly absurd.
I agree. When something like this happens you would automatically go the people in charge of the complex i.e. to the people whose job it was to specifically assist you, if and when you needed help. It simply wouldn't occur to you to go to a bar. imo.
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I agree. When something like this happens you would automatically go the people in charge of the complex i.e. to the people whose job it was to specifically assist you, if and when you needed help. It simply wouldn't occur to you to go to a bar. imo.
Yes, they did do that and in Matthews own words the response was...
...it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to,...
So much for going to reception!
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I agree. When something like this happens you would automatically go the people in charge of the complex i.e. to the people whose job it was to specifically assist you, if and when you needed help. It simply wouldn't occur to you to go to a bar. imo.
How could they anticipate calling not even the emergency number was going to take some 25 minutes ?
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I agree. When something like this happens you would automatically go the people in charge of the complex i.e. to the people whose job it was to specifically assist you, if and when you needed help. It simply wouldn't occur to you to go to a bar. imo.
It was not *a bar* or any unconnected place, to management, it was pretty much the hub of the resort, the staff at the tapas would have been able to alert management much quicker than running down there, or prewarn them, staff and supervisors they will have been aware of all week, to suggest none of them spoke english is preposterous, in fact they did and they rang reception as well as alert the millenium restauarant so staff there could join in the search
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It was not *a bar* or any unconnected place, to management, it was pretty much the hub of the resort, the staff at the tapas would have been able to alert management much quicker than running down there, or prewarn them, staff and supervisors they will have been aware of all week, to suggest none of them spoke english is preposterous, in fact they did and they rang reception as well as alert the millenium restauarant so staff there could join in the search
so it was reported to Tapas restaurant AND to main reception.
I can't see a problem
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And again....
Questioned if he was the person who called the reception to tell them that a child had gone missing, he states that he cannot definitively remember if he did or not. He admits that he could have been the one to call.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
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so it was reported to Tapas restaurant AND to main reception.
I can't see a problem
The problem here is some people saying it would be ludicrous for members of the tapas group, the men, to go to the tapas restaraunt for help because people there probably had no phone, didnt speak english, wouldnt have been able to alert anyone, so matts only option was to run to main reception, which is hogwash in itself as all points have been refuted
In fact none of them did, ie ask the tapas staff to alert anyone, they just told them what was happening,it was the waiters and others there at the time that between them rang main reception to alert them
Ricardo the waiters statement
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
The witness went to them, he does not remember which one, and asked what was happening. One of them responded to the witness in English stating 'A GIRL IS MISSING?' that a child had gone missing. After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5 A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so) called the reception asking them to inform the police.
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And the thing is too, Gilet makes a big deal of her claim that nobody spoke English in the tapas or would have wanted to get involved. I find this utterly ridiculous. We know that Jeronimo for instance was Portuguese but had lived in the UK since he was 10 years of age. As well as being able to speak English just as well as you or I he was also fluent in Portuguese and Spanish. Jeronimo even told Gerry that he would contact the workers at the Millennium Restaurant which sort of rendered Matthews trip there a wild goose chase. Confusion personified!
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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It just makes you wonder how many telephoned the cops on their mobiles as well?
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And the thing is too, Gilet makes a big deal of her claim that nobody spoke English in the tapas or would have wanted to get involved. I find this utterly ridiculous. We know that Jeronimo for instance was Portuguese but had lived in the UK since he was 10 years of age. As well as being able to speak English just as well as you or I he was also fluent in Portuguese and Spanish. Jeronimo even told Gerry that he would contact the workers at the Millennium Restaurant which sort of rendered Matthews trip there a wild goose chase. Confusion personified!
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
So how would the McCann or any of the Tapas group have known that was the case?
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Did they not converse with Jo every single night and even during the day sometimes? They all knew that he could speak English perfectly well. What I fail to comprehend is why didn't they elicit the help of a staff member like Jo at the tapas instead of running off down town like headless chickens? Jo was the perfect candidate as he could speak both languages perfectly.
Jo also states that he was often asked to attend to the British guests as he was bilingual whereas the other waiters only had a smattering of English. There you have it, the perfect guy right there and he was ignored!!
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Did they not converse with Jeronimo every night and even during the day sometimes? They all knew that he could speak English perfectly.
Seems not John. He got the times, they ate wrong too.
I began working as a functionary at the Ocean Club on the 4th of April 2007 and my charge was to serve the bar and the Tapas Bar tables. My hours were 16h00 to 24H00, five days per week and the two days off were rotated weekly. The other employees of the Tapas Bar on my schedule were Ricardo, Ze and Tiago?all of them Portuguese and with little knowledge of the English language. As a result of this, I was frequently called to attend British clients.
I remember being at work in the Tapas the night of the disappearance. I also remember the group of adults that holidayed with Madeleine, including the parents as they were frequent Tapas Bar dinner guests.
I would normally see them during the day if I went to the complex for a swim, or when they were going to get their children for lunch in the zone next to the Tapas. Nothing in their behaviour called my attention. They dined in the restaurant every night from Sunday until Thursday when Madeleine disappeared. The table was booked then for 19H30 to 20H00. It was nine adults in total, four couples and an older woman who was also with them. I always found them educated, good clients. They appeared to get along well amongst each other and each time I served the table they would comment on the food. It was a happy group who would often laugh during dinner. There was a man who particularly stood out from the rest of the group as she spoke a lot and told many jokes. At this time, I did not know who he was, but later found out it was Madeleine McCanns father.
Frequently, when I served the table I noticed that one or two elements of the group had left the restaurant. I could not imagine where they had gone to. After seeing the news stories, I figured that they had gone to check on their children. On some occasions, I also saw some infant monitors on the same table but never related this to the facts.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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Balderdash to borrow a term used by AN Other earlier. The table was booked, not the time that they ate.
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Balderdash to borrow a term used by AN Other earlier. The table was booked, not the time that they ate.
I see, so they kept table free for more than an hour, before meals were served. 9 spaces that wouldn't be used, BS. 8@??)(
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_606_small.jpg)
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So in other words, in case of an emergency, the guests at the OC were best advised to get in touch with the waiter in the Tapas bar, not reception. In fact, they should have KNOWN that the waiter was the best option & totally ignore reception. Is that the general idea?
I'm sorry, but no, it just doesn't work that way.
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So in other words, in case of an emergency, the guests at the OC were best advised to get in touch with the waiter in the Tapas bar, not reception. In fact, they should have KNOWN that the waiter was the best option & totally ignore reception. Is that the general idea?
I'm sorry, but no, it just doesn't work that way.
Should have rung the emergency number in their hotel literature then first im sure it didnt say run to reception
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Aww, what a model hotel guest, you take the hotel information book with you wherever you go when on holiday abroad? You are to be commended for such foresight, pity nobody else seem to follow your example/
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Aww, what a model hotel guest, you take the hotel information book with you wherever you go when on holiday abroad? You are to be commended for such foresight, pity nobody else seem to follow your example/
It normally in the hotel room duh!!!! And literature and advice wouod havebeen given them on registering, duh
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So in other words, in case of an emergency, the guests at the OC were best advised to get in touch with the waiter in the Tapas bar, not reception. In fact, they should have KNOWN that the waiter was the best option & totally ignore reception. Is that the general idea?
I'm sorry, but no, it just doesn't work that way.
Of course it doesnt youre justing making thngs up and being ridiculously facetious
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No, it's just that NOBODY carries around the hotel information book around with them while on holiday, to suggest they do is quite comical.
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No, it's just that NOBODY carries around the hotel information book around with them while on holiday, to suggest they do is quite comical.
I never suggested they did, why skew others posts? oh hang on......
they were all in the flat,/flats, they must have had contact numbers in a manual, or hotel brochure, tapas resort was first port of call if they had no idea what to do as would have been immediate neighbours, to suggest they thought NO ONE apart from main reception could help immediately is absurd
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Yes, as they were not carrying around the hotel information book, reception is exactly where most hotel guests would turn.
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I think I'm really hallucinating ! A little girl's lost, might be harmed, might suffer, surely wants her mummy. Every preoccupation one can have vanishes in a nutshell. Enemies unite, only one thing counts : find her !
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Yes, as they were not carrying around the hotel information book, reception is exactly where most hotel guests would turn.
Blinkered response and ignoring every point made, to be expected zzzzzz
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I think I'm really hallucinating ! A little girl's lost, might be harmed, might suffer, surely wants her mummy. Every preoccupation one can have vanishes in a nutshell. Enemies unite, only one thing counts : find her !
Please elaborate, who's the "enemy" in your scenario?
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It was not *a bar* or any unconnected place, to management, it was pretty much the hub of the resort, the staff at the tapas would have been able to alert management much quicker than running down there, or prewarn them, staff and supervisors they will have been aware of all week, to suggest none of them spoke english is preposterous, in fact they did and they rang reception as well as alert the millenium restauarant so staff there could join in the search
The bar/restaurant was simply that. Either offer some actual evidence of that absurd claim or it will be seen to be nothing but an unevidenced opinion.
The Reception was the hub of the resort as evidenced by the presence of 24 hour reception, management, offices and other facilities.
The McCanns and their friends could NOT know with any certainty that they would find anyone who could speak English at the Tapas (if such a person had been on duty he may have left, joined the search etc) whereas they did know for certain that a speaker of English was available about a minute further away at Reception.
There is no evidence that the McCanns or their friends were aware that there was a phone with a direct line at the Tapas Bar. As part of the Resort complex it may have been on a central switchboard with that located at Reception.
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I think I'm really hallucinating ! A little girl's lost, might be harmed, might suffer, surely wants her mummy. Every preoccupation one can have vanishes in a nutshell. Enemies unite, only one thing counts : find her !
Enemies? Yes you are probably hallucinating unless you can explain the enemies.
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This thread is very Amaralian in its aims. It follows the same line of Inquiry which he followed.
The aim which the Anti-McCanns are currently failing to achieve is to show without doubt that the McCanns and their friends deliberately chose to waste a couple of minutes in the search for Madeleine.
These were the two options the McCanns had.
They could go to the Main Reception where as guests of the OC resort they would believe that they would be met by a trained person who spoke fluent English, had a direct outside line and knew the company procedures for missing children and would immediately put them into practice. Anyone who has stayed in a hotel (which this was not) or a resort complex would know that it is the normal place to go in emergencies.
Or they could save approximately one minute and go to the Tapas Bar where they could not know with any certainty who might be there, whether there was in fact a direct line or they would have to be put through reception anyway, whether the people there would have had any training in missing child procedures, or whether the people still there (if any) would have fluent English.
The argument the anti McCanns are trying to make given these options is that the McCanns and Matthew and possibly others among the friends MUST have known that it was BETTER to go to the Tapas bar and consult a waiter/chef/barman to make contact with the Police.
Personally, I think such a suggestion is absurd. But if some evidence had shown it to be true then I would have accepted that. However no evidence has proven it to be true.
But what was the point the Anti McCanns were attempting to make in trying to prove it true?
Of course it would have led in its Amaralian way to the McCanns and the Tapas group.
The only purpose I can see in trying to establish that there was a slight delay deliberately introduced into the timeline by choosing Reception when (according to the Anti McCanns the McCanns and their friends MUST have known the Tapas Bar was a better option is to try and insinuate that they were deliberately damaging the search for their own child.
If anyone can suggest another motive for this thread I would be pleased to read it.
And if anyone can actually provide evidence that the McCanns and their friends did something wrong by choosing to go to Reception rather than consult with whoever might have been left at the Tapas Bar then I would be pleased to see that as well. So far no such evidence has emerged.
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Yes, they did do that and in Matthews own words the response was...
...it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to,...
So much for going to reception!
Indeed it seems to have been a fairly lacklustre response.
But the crucial thing in regard to this thread is that it was not possible for Matthew to know that the particular member of staff would react in that way.
That reaction would not have been factored in to the decision to go to Reception.
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The tapas resort should have been the first port of call, even if on their way to main reception miles away
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This thread is very Amaralian in its aims. It follows the same line of Inquiry which he followed.
The aim which the Anti-McCanns are currently failing to achieve is to show without doubt that the McCanns and their friends deliberately chose to waste a couple of minutes in the search for Madeleine.
These were the two options the McCanns had.
They could go to the Main Reception where as guests of the OC resort they would believe that they would be met by a trained person who spoke fluent English, had a direct outside line and knew the company procedures for missing children and would immediately put them into practice. Anyone who has stayed in a hotel (which this was not) or a resort complex would know that it is the normal place to go in emergencies.
Or they could save approximately one minute and go to the Tapas Bar where they could not know with any certainty who might be there, whether there was in fact a direct line or they would have to be put through reception anyway, whether the people there would have had any training in missing child procedures, or whether the people still there (if any) would have fluent English.
The argument the anti McCanns are trying to make given these options is that the McCanns and Matthew and possibly others among the friends MUST have known that it was BETTER to go to the Tapas bar and consult a waiter/chef/barman to make contact with the Police.
Personally, I think such a suggestion is absurd. But if some evidence had shown it to be true then I would have accepted that. However no evidence has proven it to be true.
But what was the point the Anti McCanns were attempting to make in trying to prove it true?
Of course it would have led in its Amaralian way to the McCanns and the Tapas group.
The only purpose I can see in trying to establish that there was a slight delay deliberately introduced into the timeline by choosing Reception when (according to the Anti McCanns the McCanns and their friends MUST have known the Tapas Bar was a better option is to try and insinuate that they were deliberately damaging the search for their own child.
If anyone can suggest another motive for this thread I would be pleased to read it.
And if anyone can actually provide evidence that the McCanns and their friends did something wrong by choosing to go to Reception rather than consult with whoever might have been left at the Tapas Bar then I would be pleased to see that as well. So far no such evidence has emerged.
8@??)( 8@??)(
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The tapas resort should have been the first port of call, even if on their way to main reception miles away
Are you really so lacking in knowledge about this case as to think the Tapas area, the small area surrounded by the wall containing a bar, two pools, the laundry and one of the miniclubs is a RESORT?
The Ocean Club Resort of which the Tapas enclosure is a tiny part stretches across almost the whole of the town of Praia da Luz?
There was no manangement, no office at the Tapas Bar area.
The Resort Reception was where Matthew chose to go for what appear to me to be very, very sensible reasons.
And as for your lie that the Reception of the resort was "miles away", well that really scuppers your argument doesn't it and shows up either your lack of knowledge or your inability to post accurately. Have you not even bothered to read the facts presented and confirmed by the Senior Editor in this thread or have you simply chosen to ignore them and post a lie?
It was just less than 180 metres further than the bar where you are claiming Matthew should have gone. A matter of one minute or so on foot.
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Zzzzzzzzzzzz at amaralian LOL a new pro language in the making nite nite
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Desperate people clutch at straws
Toodles
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Zzzzzzzzzzzz at amaralian LOL a new pro language in the making nite nite
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Desperate people clutch at straws
Toodles
So you have no answers.
Why am I not surprised that your only retort is abuse as usual?
I think people reading here will realise there is absolutely no desperation in my post whereas your lack of any coherent response and resorting to abuse is a clear sign of desperation on your part. Your indication of boredom at posts which are longer than a few words might be an indication as to why your grasp of the basics of the case is not particularly good. That one about reception being miles away was a classic.
My post is logical, looks at the options soberly and asks relevant questions.
What does your post do? Ah, yes, it attempts to mock and shows that you consider this debate just a funny game.
Readers can decide who is seeking truth and who is not for themselves.
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This question has been posed by another poster earlier in the thread, twice I believe.
But for the benefit of the casual reader it is worth highlighting again.
When on holiday in a resort or hotel and you have a serious emergency, do you normally choose to deal with that emergency with a barman or waiter or do you go directly to Reception?
That is the crux of this thread.
Anti McCann posters are suggesting that it was utterly abnormal that Matthew should have chosen to head directly to Reception a mere 180 metres further away, rather than deal with a waiter or barman. They are implying that this was done deliberately to damage the search for Madeleine.
What do you think?
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What was the serious emergency exactly? Nobody knew for sure what was going on when Matthew was sent on a wild goose chase all over Praia da Luz.
He was sent to main reception in the dark to phone the police, it didn't happen, he make the trek to the Millennium Restaurant to see if she was there when they had already been notified by a member of staff and then he had to go back down to the reception again to ask that they call police again...but all the while all they had to do was to ask Jo who spoke perfect English and Portuguese and was more than willing to help BUT nobody bothered to ask him.
The suggestion that the tapas-9 couldn't be sure if anyone within the bar/restaurant spoke English is complete nonsense. Jo served them at the tables and in the bar nightly, he even met then during the day and could speak English perfectly. Jo was there when it all kicked off, he heard Kate scream from the balcony. He took part in searches.
The evidence from the staff reveals a situation of utter chaos. Going down to reception never achieved anything in the beginning. The receptionist simply ignored Matthew and more or less told him to go back up to Ocean Club Garden and search a while longer. It wasn't until the resort manager John Hill arrived and got involved after 10.40pm that the police were called from reception.
Had they bothered to speak to the tapas crew they could have had the police on site much earlier. As it was even Jo is on record as stating he didn't know who telephoned the police because they simply weren't kept in the loop.
All that time wasted allowed the abductors to get clean away.
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Please elaborate, who's the "enemy" in your scenario?
A scenario ? I find it common sense to concentrate on a lost little girl.
Adversaries, opponents... People who dislike each other forget it in a case like this one.
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What was the serious emergency exactly? Nobody knew for sure what was going on when Matthew was sent on a wild goose chase all over Praia da Luz.
He was sent to main reception in the dark to phone the police, it didn't happen, he make the trek to the Millennium Restaurant to see if she was there when they had already been notified by a member of staff and then he had to go back down to the reception again to ask that they call police again...but all the while all they had to do was to ask Jo who spoke perfect English and Portuguese and was more than willing to help BUT nobody bothered to ask him.
The suggestion that the tapas-9 couldn't be sure if anyone within the bar/restaurant spoke English is complete nonsense. Jo served them at the tables and in the bar nightly, he even met then during the day and could speak English perfectly. Jo was there when it all kicked off, he heard Kate scream from the balcony. He took part in searches.
The evidence from the staff reveals a situation of utter chaos. Going down to reception never achieved anything in the beginning. The receptionist simply ignored Matthew and more or less told him to go back up to Ocean Club Garden and search a while longer. It wasn't until the resort manager John Hill arrived and got involved after 10.40pm that the police were called from reception.
Had they bothered to speak to the tapas crew they could have had the police on site much earlier. As it was even Jo is on record as stating he didn't know who telephoned the police because they simply weren't kept in the loop.
All that time wasted allowed the abductors to get clean away.
I can't see anything in your post to disagree with
Congratulations John ... I know you ( like me ) have not followed this case with the same devotion as some posters here, but you have gotten up to speed remarkably well
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What was the serious emergency exactly? Nobody knew for sure what was going on when Matthew was sent on a wild goose chase all over Praia da Luz.
No-one knew exactly what was going on but they DID KNOW THAT A LITTLE GIRL WAS MISSING AND WERE TRYING TO INVOLVE THE POLICE IN THE SEARCH FOR HER. Personally I think your description of Matthew's involvement as a "wild goose chase" is rather crass.
He was sent to main reception in the dark to phone the police, it didn't happen, he make the trek to the Millennium Restaurant to see if she was there when they had already been notified by a member of staff and then he had to go back down to the reception again to ask that they call police again...but all the while all they had to do was to ask Jo who spoke perfect English and Portuguese and was more than willing to help BUT nobody bothered to ask him.
It was not Matthew's fault that the calling of the police did not happen.
Was he aware that Millennium had already been notified or was it simply a sensible move on his part to include that venue within the immediate search?
Was he aware that this "Jo" was actually available in the Tapas area? He had not been when they were last there had he, so how would Matthew know he had turned up? Please explain how he had been informed that "Jo" was now present and available?
The suggestion that the tapas-9 couldn't be sure if anyone within the bar/restaurant spoke English is complete nonsense. Jo served them at the tables and in the bar nightly, he even met then during the day and could speak English perfectly. Jo was there when it all kicked off, he heard Kate scream from the balcony. He took part in searches.
But they could not be sure he was there could they? Whereas they knew with certainty there were people at Reception and it is not Matthew's fault that the people whose duty it was to deal with the situation were in fact incompetent.
The evidence from the staff reveals a situation of utter chaos. Going down to reception never achieved anything in the beginning. The receptionist simply ignored Matthew and more or less told him to go back up to Ocean Club Garden and search a while longer. It wasn't until the resort manager John Hill arrived and got involved after 10.40pm that the police were called from reception.
Of course, it was utter chaos. A child was missing and people were panicking. Do you think that everyone would have been walking around and being utterly calm? Do you think that people were making carefully plans regarding their actions or do you think they were making the best decisions they could in the circumstances and relying on the fact that Reception is the place where you are advised (in all resorts I have been in) to take your problems?
Had they bothered to speak to the tapas crew they could have had the police on site much earlier. As it was even Jo is on record as stating he didn't know who telephoned the police because they simply weren't kept in the loop.
Firstly when they left the Tapas Jeronimo had himself left the area. They were not to know that he was merely elsewhere in another part of the restaurant and would return. When he returned he noticed Diane was alone.
Secondly had they returned they probably would NOT have found Jeronimo there as he was on his way to Reception which even HE knew was the place where things were organised.
At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner.
All that time wasted allowed the abductors to get clean away.
With hindsight there may have been wasted time. Largely that was the fault of the individual at the OC reception who appears to have been pretty incompetent. But hindsight is a wonderful thing, not actually available to individuals in the midst of a traumatic child disappearance.
My response is in Blue.
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He implied that the Mini Club was accessed via Main Reception.
I did no such thing. I have asked five times now for any evidence of this claim.
Could you please back up this claim made in the above post.
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What was the serious emergency exactly? snipped ................................................... Jo served them at the tables and in the bar nightly, he even met then during the day and could speak English perfectly. Jo was there when it all kicked off, he heard Kate scream from the balcony. snipped ............................................... He took part in searches.
The evidence from the staff reveals a situation of utter chaos.
It is there in your post John. Everything.
What was the serious emergency exactly?
Jeez, John, if the closed window had been opened, the shutters raised ... and YOUR little one was missing from her bed, that wouldn't be a serious emergency?
he [Joe] heard Kate scream from the balcony ..... and ..... He took part in searches.
So he knew what was going on and took part in searches. Was he searching when the nine left the Tapas? Was he even there when Matt set off? Do you know? Editted Having read gilets post, I now know that he was NOT there but being proactive by going to the reception (the obvious place!) and searching
Jeronimo[b]At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother. I went to the reception with one of the child care workers whose name I do not remember. One of the employees looked to be organizing the searches and told us the name of the child. We were sent to the beach zone and looked in all the alleys and called out the name of the child but did not find her. Later, we returned to the Tapas where we found John, the Manager of Mark Warner. [/b]
The evidence from the staff reveals a situation of utter chaos.
You bet there would be chaos. You bet!
Bludy L .......Not a serious emergency?
Pull the other one, John; it has bells on it ... LOL!
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It is there in your post John. Everything.
What was the serious emergency exactly?
Jeez, John, if the closed window had been opened, the shutters raised ... and YOUR little one was missing from her bed, that wouldn't be a serious emergency?
he [Joe] heard Kate scream from the balcony ..... and ..... He took part in searches.
So he knew what was going on and took part in searches. Was he searching when the nine left the Tapas? Was he even there when Matt set off? Do you know?
The evidence from the staff reveals a situation of utter chaos.
You bet there would be chaos. You bet!
Bludy L .......Not a serious emergency?
Pull the other one, John; it has bells on it ... LOL!
Calm down Sadie. Reception didn't consider it an emergency at all.
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I did no such thing. I have asked five times now for any evidence of this claim.
Could you please back up this claim made in the above post.
Far be it for me to prolong this silliness but I have to agree Gilet you did agree rightly that the childrens club was above reception and then proceeded to post a map showing the shortcut there. The following morning you then posted a different map showing that the childrens club (there are in fact two of them) are accessed using a walkway located around the corner in the car park. I must say that reading the posts I also assumed that the childrens clubs were accessed via reception as nobody claimed any different. I can therefore see why the confusion arose.
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Calm down Sadie. Reception didn't consider it an emergency at all.
Are you being serious?
How does the fact that the incompetent member of staff at Reception indicate in any way that the situation was not serious.
Do you not think a missing child is serious?
John Hill the manager and many other staff at OC seemed to think it serious.
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Far be it for me to prolong this silliness but I have to agree Gilet you did agree rightly that the childrens club was above reception and then proceeded to post a map showing the shortcut there. The following morning you then posted a different map showing that the childrens club (there are in fact two of them) are accessed using a walkway located around the corner in the car park. I must say that reading the posts I also assumed that the childrens clubs were accessed via reception as nobody claimed any different. I can therefore see why the confusion arose.
Please provide some evidence for this claim as I did no such thing.
My maps simply showed where RECEPTION was.
It was an entirely different poster who was claiming that Reception and The club were both off the entrance in the car park.
I repeat I never made the claim which now John and you have said I made.
Neither of you have offered any evidence that I made such a claim.
And my requests for that evidence have simply been deleted.
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Please provide some evidence for this claim as I did no such thing.
My maps simply showed where RECEPTION was.
It was an entirely different poster who was claiming that Reception and The club were both off the entrance in the car park.
I repeat I never made the claim which now John and you have said I made.
Neither of you have offered any evidence that I made such a claim.
And my requests for that evidence have simply been deleted.
Its very simple but you are obviously unable to see it. You posted a map showing where reception was and mentioned that the childrens club was located above it. Ergo one naturally assumed as I did that the club and reception shared an access. You later noticed the error when Sadie asked for a map realising that the clubs were served from an entrance in the main car park which John I believe had indicated in the first place.
As far as being biased is concerned I resent that comment and request you withdraw it. I treat all members equally and have done so since this forum was formed. Your aggression is very noticeable and is not conducive with the high standards of this forum.
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Its very simple but you are obviously unable to see it. You posted a map showing where reception was and mentioned that the childrens club was located above it. Ergo one naturally assumed as I did that the club and reception shared an access. You later noticed the error when Sadie asked for a map realising that the clubs were served from an entrance in the main car park which John I believe had indicated in the first place.
As far as being biased is concerned I resent that comment and request you withdraw it. I treat all members equally and have done so since this forum was formed. Your aggression is very noticeable and is not conducive with the high standards of this forum.
The childrens club IS SITUATED ABOVE RECEPTION. Directly above. Though the entrance is from the side in the carpark the club itself is as I stated correctly, above Reception.
That is not what John accused me of posting though. His claim was that I had stated/implied that the entrance to the Childrens Club was through Reception. I never made that claim ever nor implied it. Another poster implied that.
At no point did I ever change my personal position about the entrance to the Childrens club.
The second diagram (not a map at all) I posted showing the entrance to the club was at the side and not by relation was in relation to the post by another poster who had claimed they were in the same place and as a correction to her post.
Your assumption was simply wrong. Assumptions like guesses so often are.
My post was 100% correct.
And yet I have been lambasted and laughed at by moderators here for being 100% correct and for simply asking for the evidence that I made the claim. Having never made the claim or implied as John stated I did that the entrance was through reception I would appreciate an apology.
I will consider withdrawing my claim of your bias when I have re-read the posts involved and when I have received an apology regarding the claims you and John made that I was wrong. I was not. It was your assumption that was wrong.
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The childrens club IS SITUATED ABOVE RECEPTION. Directly above. Though the entrance is from the side in the carpark the club itself is as I stated correctly, above Reception.
That is not what John accused me of posting though. His claim was that I had stated/implied that the entrance to the Childrens Club was through Reception. I never made that claim ever nor implied it. Another poster implied that.
At no point did I ever change my personal position about the entrance to the Childrens club.
The second diagram I posted showing the entrance to the club was at the side and not by relation was in relation to the post by another poster who had claimed they were in the same place and as a correction to her post.
Your assumption was simply wrong. Assumptions like guesses so often are.
My post was 100% correct.
And yet I have been lambasted and laughed at by moderators here for being 100% correct and for simply asking for the evidence that I made the claim. Having never made the claim or implied as John stated I did that the entrance was through reception I would appreciate an apology.
I will consider withdrawing my claim of your bias when I have re-read the posts involved and when I have received an apology regarding the claims you and John made that I was wrong. I was not. It was your assumption that was wrong.
There are two childrens clubs and they aren't just above reception as you claim so you are wrong yet again. When you posted the maps initially you failed to identify the fact that the childrens clubs was not accessed via reception yet you claim to have known that information. It wasn't until much later that you posted a hastily drawn map showing the walkway which leads to the childrens clubs.
You claim your post was correct but I dispute that as it led me to make an incorrect assumption only rectified much later when you realised your mistake. We all make mistakes gilet but most of us are big enough as to admit to them. I suggest you accept that your posts were misleading and move on.
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There are two childrens clubs and they aren't just above reception as you claim so you are wrong yet again. When you posted the maps initially you failed to identify the fact that the childrens clubs was not accessed via reception yet you claim to have known that information. It wasn't until much later that you posted a hastily drawn map showing the walkway which leads to the childrens clubs.
You claim your post was correct but I dispute that as it led me to make an incorrect assumption only rectified much later when you realised your mistake. We all make mistakes gilet but most of us are big enough as to admit to them. I suggest you accept that your posts were misleading and move on.
Why are you posting such nonsense?
One of the childrens clubs is OVER THE RECEPTION as I claimed.
I posted a diagram showing that you walk up the steps from the carpark and turn back on yourself to access it.
My posts were NOT misleading and were in fact 100% CORRECT.
It was your ASSUMPTION about what I was posting and is now your lack of KNOWLEDGE about the location of the children's club which are at fault.
The reason I even bothered to post the diagram (not map) of the entrance of the childrens club was to correct a post by Anne Guedes (not my own post) in which she claimed that both the club and the reception were accessed from the car park
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/club6_zpsc7d0f5a8.jpg)
For information, one children's club is above Reception and one is in the Tapas enclosure beyond the restaurant.
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We all make mistakes gilet but most of us are big enough as to admit to them. I suggest you accept that your posts were misleading and move on.
Alternatively, if you're a Mod, you can just delete your offending posts & pretend you never wrote them. Like you do.
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You are wrong again. There were two childrens clubs on the 1st floor of that building and not just one and they weren't all above reception. To go back to to your original gripe, you claim you didn't mislead anyone about the entrance to the club but you posted a route plan showing the route the McCanns would have taken to get to the club but you terminated it outside reception giving the impression that that was also the entrance to the club. Fair do's gilet you got that wrong too. 8(0(*
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c1600790i_zps0df1e199.jpg)
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I sent the link to the PJ photos showing where was the entrance to the creches. I did it only because I didn't want posters to be misled.
Now I observe that the main reception entrance is again red arrowed on rua direita. Was it like this in 2007 ? I don't know, but in 2011 the large reception hall was on the car park.
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I sent the link to the PJ photos showing where was the entrance to the creches. I did it only because I didn't want posters to be misled.
Now I observe that the main reception entrance is again red arrowed on rua direita. Was it like this in 2007 ? I don't know, but in 2011 the large reception hall was on the car park.
The Google imagery is from 22 June 2007 and August 2009. They must have moved it Anne which accounts for the further confusion. Great observation and well spotted!! 8@??)( 8((()*/
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Balderdash to borrow a term used by AN Other earlier. The table was booked, not the time that they ate.
Bumped, for John. I Haven't posted all but they are all 8.30 bookings. Which you said was balderdash.
I see, so they kept table free for more than an hour, before meals were served. 9 spaces that wouldn't be used, BS. 8@??)(
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_606_small.jpg)
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(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/club6_zpsc7d0f5a8.jpg)
I know it's off topic but looking at that picture I was struck by how unappealing that kids' club is
No outside play area even ... stuck up on the first floor overlooking a car park
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What's your point DCI? Waiter and barman Jeronimo Salcedas gave his statement to Leicestershire Police nearly a year after Madeleine was abducted, do you really believe he would remember every detail of who ate what and when?? Unreal the pure shite some people post.
It wasn't as if the restaurant was bursting at the seams was it??
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No outside play area even ... stuck up on the first floor overlooking a car park
And there were two childrens clubs there too Ica.
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I sent the link to the PJ photos showing where was the entrance to the creches. I did it only because I didn't want posters to be misled.
Now I observe that the main reception entrance is again red arrowed on rua direita. Was it like this in 2007 ? I don't know, but in 2011 the large reception hall was on the car park.
When the photo below was taken by Google in August 2009, Reception had moved around the corner. In the photo below the old reception office (red arrowed) is empty with a 'For Rent' sign in the window.
(http://i.imgur.com/iwOUWaX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7C95Lh9.jpg)
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I have been trying to follow events on this thread and work out why there was so much delay in contacting the police force. My own opinion is that this delay contributed to the ineffectiveness of the police operation since the people involved in the abduction had gotten clean away.
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Bumped, for John. I Haven't posted all but they are all 8.30 bookings. Which you said was balderdash.
They ate at the same time every evening DCI A booking on a form is neither here nor there.
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I think it's unrealistic to suggest that any normal person desperately needing police assistance in that situation would think to run to a bar/restaurant rather than Reception - even if it was nearer.
To me - this is like saying that if a police station was 100 yds up the road and you suddenly needed a policeman, you would stop off at the Chinese Takeaway 60 yds up the road and ask THEM to ring the police, because it was nearer - rather than run past it and go directly to the police station yourself. It's the same principle IMO.
In the normal course of things - people do not regard Bars/restaurants as a 'natural' means of contacting the police. It wouldn't enter their heads. The Reception may not have been the police station but it was the next best thing and the FIRST place anyone would automatically think of to go to in order to make contact with a police station. Perfectly normal behaviour IMO.
It's not as if they were all sitting around calmly discussing which was the best place to go to and then made the wrong decision. They were frantic and their minds would have been in turmoil.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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Post modern people used to cell phones running like headless chicken to contact unknown persons when familiar ones are at hand, when a child's life is at stake and any emergency essential is above imagination, if not sinisterly paradoxical.
I would have screamed until I lost my voice. And I think many would have too.
The issue is really not to blame anyone, but to reflect.
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The bottom line appears to be that Matthew reported the event to Reception around 10.10pm asking that the police be called...they weren't. This fatal error allowed the abductors a head start, the rest as they say is history.
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Post modern people used to cell phones running like headless chicken to contact unknown persons when familiar ones are at hand, when a child's life is at stake and any emergency essential is above imagination, if not sinisterly paradoxical.
I would have screamed until I lost my voice. And I think many would have too.
The issue is really not to blame anyone, but to reflect.
Were they familiar enough to even know Jo's name - or the names of any of the staff at the Tapas? I think that's doubtful.
The very fact that they were in a foreign country and KNEW for definite there would be English speaking people at Reception would be uppermost in their minds. Apart from that it was the most natural place to go anyway IMO.
We all think we know how we would react in the event of being suddenly plunged into traumatic circumstances, but I can asure you from personal experience that we are not always right.
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The bottom line appears to be that Matthew reported the event to Reception around 10.10pm asking that the police be called...they weren't. This fatal error allowed the abductors a head start, the rest as they say is history.
I think you are right John. And at least one oft quoted myth has been exploded during this debate IMO , and that is that ''the McCanns and their friends sat on their backsides and didn't even bother to call the police until 10.40.''
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The bottom line appears to be that Matthew reported the event to Reception around 10.10pm asking that the police be called...they weren't. This fatal error allowed the abductors a head start, the rest as they say is history.
John, the carrier didn't seem to be really in a hurry. At 10h he was only 450m far from the ADS/FGM T junction he crossed at 9h15.
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What's your point DCI? Waiter and barman Jeronimo Salcedas gave his statement to Leicestershire Police nearly a year after Madeleine was abducted, do you really believe he would remember every detail of who ate what and when?? Unreal the pure shite some people post.
It wasn't as if the restaurant was bursting at the seams was it??
Why shouldn't he remember? You seem to expect the McCann's and friends to remember.
Yes it is unreal what shite some people post, just like you have done.
So you say he didn't give a statement for nearly a year after Madeleine was abducted.
So what is this then?
Processos Volume II
Pages 233 to 238
Witness Statement
Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas
Date: 2007/05/06
Occupation: Barman / Waiter
Place of Work: Ocean Club
They would arrive for dinner according to daily bookings which they did themselves at the reception, he remembers the bookings were always made for 20.30 or 21.00. This booking could be made on the same day until 16.00, it was necessary to show proof of accommodation as well as the number of persons included in the booking. He says that the group arrived in phases but no long delays occurred.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
And his Rogatory, nearly a year later
I would normally see them during the day if I went to the complex for a swim, or when they were going to get their children for lunch in the zone next to the Tapas. Nothing in their behaviour called my attention. They dined in the restaurant every night from Sunday until Thursday when Madeleine disappeared. The table was booked then for 19H30 to 20H00. It was nine adults in total, four couples and an older woman who was also with them. I always found them educated, good clients. They appeared to get along well amongst each other and each time I served the table they would comment on the food. It was a happy group who would often laugh during dinner. There was a man who particularly stood out from the rest of the group as she spoke a lot and told many jokes. At this time, I did not know who he was, but later found out it was Madeleine McCanns father. Frequently, when I served the table I noticed that one or two elements of the group had left the restaurant. I could not imagine where they had gone to. After seeing the news stories, I figured that they had gone to check on their children. On some occasions, I also saw some infant monitors on the same table but never related this to the facts.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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They ate at the same time every evening DCI A booking on a form is neither here nor there.
So why was my post balderdash?
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Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas
Date: 2007/05/06
They would arrive for dinner according to daily bookings which they did themselves at the reception, he remembers the bookings were always made for 20.30 or 21.00.
And his Rogatory, nearly a year later
The table was booked then for 19H30 to 20H00.
Mr Salcedas was likely not offered to read his first statement before being interviewed, as the Tapas group was.
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Mr Salcedas was likely not offered to read his first statement before being interviewed, as the Tapas group was.
Any evidence for that or is it just a guess?
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I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made by Jane TANNER (my wife) and I have been allowed to see these documents, this was done in the presence of DC 1578 GIERC. I wish to add that Jane’s statement covered our routine from the 28th April 2007-2nd May 2007 quite comprehensively and my original Portuguese statement referred to Jane’s statement, this was therefore a good point of reference for me.
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John, the carrier didn't seem to be really in a hurry. At 10h he was only 450m far from the ADS/FGM T junction he crossed at 9h15.
Good point about the mccanns insinuating jane tanners man was the same as the smith man, as asserted in their so called cutting edge documentary, which was anythng BUT but a mishmash of misrepresented rubbish, lying first of all that jane SAW the abductor, as if it was a fact, and that the smiths might also have seen him, what a dumb abductor, he was just strolling around for best part of an hour plus be thick enough to go abduct a child (whilst previously watchng and planning exactly,) when the parent was there,but has been the cleverest in history not to be caught, madness at best, a very very tall story , carlos the jackal aided and abbetted by a little old cleaner from ocean club who nicked some keys, gnight sleuths
Oh and where did kate mccann get the idea that jane had seen the childs bare *arms* as well as bare feet? as she stated in the oprah interview???
>@@(*&)
jane never said this, she said in panorama and other interviews she only saw a pair of feet, the files released to the mccanns a year earlier than that interview as well mentioned no bare arms, licence to lie?
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what's that got to do with going to main reception or tapas?
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John, the carrier didn't seem to be really in a hurry. At 10h he was only 450m far from the ADS/FGM T junction he crossed at 9h15.
No-one can say where he went or what he did in those 45 minutes - or where he went and what he did after the Smith sighting.
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No-one can say where he went or what he did in those 45 minutes - or where he went and what he did after the Smith sighting.
I was only saying he wasn't in a hurry at least during 45 minutes, he was walking, not running !
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Why shouldn't he remember? You seem to expect the McCann's and friends to remember.
Yes it is unreal what shite some people post, just like you have done.
So you say he didn't give a statement for nearly a year after Madeleine was abducted.
So what is this then?
Processos Volume II
Pages 233 to 238
Witness Statement
Jeronimo Tomas Rodrigues Salcedas
Date: 2007/05/06
Occupation: Barman / Waiter
Place of Work: Ocean Club
They would arrive for dinner according to daily bookings which they did themselves at the reception, he remembers the bookings were always made for 20.30 or 21.00. This booking could be made on the same day until 16.00, it was necessary to show proof of accommodation as well as the number of persons included in the booking. He says that the group arrived in phases but no long delays occurred.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
And his Rogatory, nearly a year later
I would normally see them during the day if I went to the complex for a swim, or when they were going to get their children for lunch in the zone next to the Tapas. Nothing in their behaviour called my attention. They dined in the restaurant every night from Sunday until Thursday when Madeleine disappeared. The table was booked then for 19H30 to 20H00. It was nine adults in total, four couples and an older woman who was also with them. I always found them educated, good clients. They appeared to get along well amongst each other and each time I served the table they would comment on the food. It was a happy group who would often laugh during dinner. There was a man who particularly stood out from the rest of the group as she spoke a lot and told many jokes. At this time, I did not know who he was, but later found out it was Madeleine McCanns father. Frequently, when I served the table I noticed that one or two elements of the group had left the restaurant. I could not imagine where they had gone to. After seeing the news stories, I figured that they had gone to check on their children. On some occasions, I also saw some infant monitors on the same table but never related this to the facts.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
So the witness statement made at the time says 8.30 -9.00 pm
The one a year later says 7.30 - 8.00 pm
Guess which statement is likely to be correct.
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The first statement is universally taken for the best.
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The title of this thread is Re: Why not report the abduction at the Tapas bar rather than Main Reception
This thread has been diverted everywhere rather than keep to what the thread is about.
Let's get back to basics.
I have added more points to the path which allows for better cornering which a person in a hurry would certainly do.
The comparison between the two distances is very interesting.
In fact if Matthew knew of this shortcut then the difference between reporting at the Tapas bar and at Reception
would be only 194 yards or 179 metres
268 yards against 72 yards.
245 metres against 66 metres.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_71_zpsfb3f566d.jpg)
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_72_zps58f3a150.jpg)
So,
the distance from 5A gate to OC Reception is about 268 -275 yards
The distance to the outside tapas is about 75 metres + the distance into the Tapas bar which is a permanent type building. That is another 15 yards.= a total of 90 yards
It is unlikely that an electrical device liike a phone would be housed out side
So gilet was correct and erring on the side of being very circumspect when she gave her figures.
Well done gilet 8@??)(
Additionally we now know that Jeronimo (Joe) went to the main reception to report it. So why didn't Jeronimo report it from the tapas bar? Maybe there wasn't any phone there at all?
Some good it would have been going there !!!
We also have John confirming where the Reception was with the FOR LET/ FOR SALE notice in the window in, was it 2009. This confirms its likely position in 2007 . Thank you John for posting that photo. Well done.
So now we have the reasons why Gerry made the right decision to go the main reception rather than the Tapas.
Well done Gerry. Pity the guy on the desk was half asleep ... or maybe afraid of the Police, afraid to call them? Jeez
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The first statement is universally taken for the best.
Thank you, Anne 8((()*/
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Sadie, I thought you might like this graphic as the distance from 5a to the tapas appears to be in dispute so much.
(http://i.imgur.com/f8IRXqq.jpg)
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John, the carrier didn't seem to be really in a hurry. At 10h he was only 450m far from the ADS/FGM T junction he crossed at 9h15.
Like many, I find it hard to believe that an abductor would still be wandering around Praia da Luz nearly an hour after taking a little girl from her bed.
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Like many, I find it hard to believe that an abductor would still be wandering around Praia da Luz nearly an hour after taking a little girl from her bed.
So do I. And then ? Should we eliminate one carrier ?
I find it hard to believe Jane T consciously lied, but I'd admit she mixed up time.
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Like many, I find it hard to believe that an abductor would still be wandering around Praia da Luz nearly an hour after taking a little girl from her bed.
But we don't know that he was wandering around. He could have been holed up somewhere waiting for instructions.
The fact is no-one can say what happened during that time - or what he did after the Smith sighting, mainly because we don't know the reason for her abduction in the first place. imo
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But we don't know that he was wandering around. He could have been holed up somewhere waiting for instructions.
Submitting half dressed Madeleine to pneumonia ?
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These sort of abductions are normally well planned in advance. It was the same with Rene, Ben and Madeleine, they were there one minute and then gone completely without a trace.
Madeleine's abduction was meticulously planned. They chose the perfect time. Late in the evening when the streets were mostly empty, when the tapas-9 group had let their guard down, when the children were alone and when the GNR were undermanned and least likely to attend promptly. When the PJ were off duty and holding up the nearest bar. For all we know the call to Odiáxere was a carefully orchestrated hoax which would have taken the only patrol out that night well away from Luz.
For heavens sake, the abductor walked straight past Jane and she never batted an eyelid.
For me the Smiths sighting is a non event, a coincidence.
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These sort of abductions are normally well planned in advance. It was the same with Rene, Ben and Madeleine, they were there one minute and then gone completely without a trace.
Madeleine's abduction was meticulously planned. They chose the perfect time. Late in the evening when the streets were mostly empty, when the tapas-9 group had let their guard down, when the children were alone and when the GNR were undermanned and least likely to attend promptly. When the PJ were off duty and holding up the nearest bar. For all we know the call to Odiáxere was a carefully orchestrated hoax which would have taken the only patrol out that night well away from Luz.
For heavens sake, the abductor walked straight past Jane and she never batted an eyelid.
For me the Smiths sighting is a non event, a coincidence.
Another reason why I think it was pre-planned is because they chose the night before the last night of the holiday knowing that people do change their routines on the last night because of packing or having to get an early night because of an early flight the next day.
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Another reason why I think it was pre-planned is because they chose the night before the last night of the holiday knowing that people do change their routines on the last night because of packing or having to get an early night because of an early flight the next day.
An excellent point Benice. Undoubtedly, they knew they had to go for it on the Thursday night, after that they were stuffed!
Yes, a couple of minutes to get to reception, another 5 minutes or so to impart his concerns to the receptionist and discuss the possible search in hand and then another few minutes to return to the apartment. Then its off to the Millennium Restaurant, a Km away, followed by another trek to a beach in the dark before returning to the apartment. Still no police on the scene so its back down to the reception again and by this time the resort manager had arrived and at last they telephone the police. A whole 40 minutes wasted!
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the call to Odiáxere was a carefully orchestrated hoax which would have taken the only patrol out that night well away from Luz.
Do you know for what reason the patrol was sent to Odiáxere ?
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having to get an early night because of an early flight the next day.
Their flight was late afternoon on Saturday.
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Do you know for what reason the patrol was sent to Odiáxere ?
Was supposed to have been a robbery.
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Was supposed to have been a robbery.
Are you sure ? I never read this. So you think it was a hoax ? Hum... a bit conspirational, don't you think ? Was Madeleine a future Flora MacDonald ?
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Another reason why I think it was pre-planned is because they chose the night before the last night of the holiday knowing that people do change their routines on the last night because of packing or having to get an early night because of an early flight the next day.
There was still another day and a night left of the holiday - flight out was Saturday.
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Are you sure ? I never read this. So you think it was a hoax ? Hum... a bit conspirational, don't you think ? Was Madeleine a future Flora MacDonald ?
It was the easiest thing in the world to create a diversion well away from Praia da Luz. The last thing any abductor wanted was a police patrol sniffing around the town.
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It was the easiest thing in the world to create a diversion well away from Praia da Luz. The last thing any abductor wanted was a police patrol sniffing around the town.
It wasn't difficult as well to have a car (personal, rented or stolen). Wouldn't any abductor want to be able to be far away as soon as possible ?
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Their flight was late afternoon on Saturday.
But would the abductors know that?
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Three possibilities>
1) It was not a planned abduction, but the pointers are all there, so seems it was
2) At least one of the the abductors worked at OC. The reception staff, the Tapas restaurant staff and the cleaning staff would all know when they we leaving ... along with countless others who had access to the information via their job at the OC
3) Somebody had read it in the Tapas restaurant book which apparently was left lying around.
Also, of course they might have chatted with someone who chatted with them to particularly glean the info ... once again likely to be from OC or maybe from, or visiting, Baptista Supermarket.
They didn't do much else, except the icecream shop on the beach, I expect.
To me, number 2) seems most likely, with number 3) a possibility too.