UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on June 02, 2013, 03:28:25 PM
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So what route did Matthew take to get to what is commonly referred to as the Main Ocean Club Reception?
I must admit that the discussion last night which ended up considering the time which Matthew would have taken to get to the main reception has revealed that not all of know where that office is. I must admit that I am one of them.
I think it would be an interesting exercise to have a look at this as I for one can see several implication on what has already been debated on other boards.
First of all, here is a photo of the Main Reception as it was in 2007 and which operated 24/7.
Madeleine's Mini Club was located on the floor above.
(http://i.imgur.com/iwOUWaX.jpg)
This photo was taken in 2009. Reception had moved to new
premises around the corner and the old office was up for rent.
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Map showing the McCanns apartment in red, the Tapas Day Reception in yellow and the main Ocean Club Resort Reception in blue.
(http://i.imgur.com/ECPcFr8.jpg)
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What a weird layout exists at the Ocean Club resort with the main reception located way down the town. Does anyone know at what time the day reception located just down from the McCanns apartment closed each evening?
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Yes, I would like to know as well. Where exactly it is, I mean. Although I don't think that how long it took to get there in a panic is all that important. But no doubt some will.
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I had always assumed that it was located in the building beside the restaurant within the actual apartment complex where the tapas-9 stayed. As nobody has ever said anything to the contrary I accepted that to be the situation.
Just shows how the simplest detail can be taken for granted. 8-)(--)
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I had always assumed that it was located in the building beside the restaurant within the actual apartment complex where the tapas-9 stayed. As nobody has ever said anything to the contrary I accepted that to be the situation. 8-)(--)
I had assumed the same
( I stiil can't picture where the reception actually is ... any chance of that map John ? )
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Map now at reply #1 8(0(*
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I had always assumed that it was located in the building beside the restaurant within the actual apartment complex where the tapas-9 stayed. As nobody has ever said anything to the contrary I accepted that to be the situation.
Just shows how the simplest detail can be taken for granted. 8-)(--)
Neither G4,G5,G6 belong to the OC complex.
The Tapas resort does, it's totally closed by quite a high wall and has only one entrance/exit, which is the little building you can see on Google maps. To get in you have to pass one door that opens in a hall with a desk and a guard (in day-time ? at night up to ?)
After crossing the hall you have to pass another door opening to a path that goes around the resort.
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Yes, I would like to know as well. Where exactly it is, I mean. Although I don't think that how long it took to get there in a panic is all that important. But no doubt some will.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yJV4BXX2fbY/T2ZVo-FhbTI/AAAAAAAAA-A/S50DbLsbsAo/s1600/the-ocean-club-appartments-in-praia-da-luz-image-1-218418668.jpg)
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Map now at reply #1 8(0(*
Thanks John
That's an eye-opener ... I always thought the two trips Matthew Oldfield made to reception as the one marked yellow
I had no idea the 24 hour reception in question was actually down in the town !
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The question is what route would Matthew have taken, anyone any ideas?
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The question is what route would Matthew have taken, anyone any ideas?
Can't see any obvious short-cut there ... so all the way round the main road in an L shape ?
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The question is what route would Matthew have taken, anyone any ideas?
Can't see any obvious short-cut there ... so all the way round the main road in an L shape ?
may effect the time to phone.
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Just checked Kate's book where she says this :
"Gerry had been over to the the Mini Club above the twenty-four-hour reception, thinking that if Madeleine had been left somewhere, she might possibly make her way back to any place that was familiar to her
So the Mini Club that Madeleine attended was in the same building as the Main reception ? ... and Gerry had already been there himself, yet asked Matthew to go there to ask them to ring the police ( twice ) ?
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Confusing isn't it. I don't see anyone rushing to explain this seemingly glaring discrepancy.
Isn't it wonderful how checking out something can reveal other errors. There are photographs on other McCann related websites which wrongly depict both the tapas bar and the location of the Murat villa. You would think they would at the very least get these basic things right wouldn't you?
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Just checked Kate's book where she says this :
"Gerry had been over to the the Mini Club above the twenty-four-hour reception, thinking that if Madeleine had been left somewhere, she might possibly make her way back to any place that was familiar to her
So the Mini Club that Madeleine attended was in the same building as the Main reception ? ... and Gerry had already been there himself, yet asked Matthew to go there to ask them to ring the police ( twice ) ?
Yes, there's a side entrance to the creches which were open by that time. But no nanny saw Mr McCann and the receptionist doesn't mention it.
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With regard to the route which Matthew took to the 24 hour reception, here is an interesting snippet from Gerry's police interview on the 10th of May 2007
From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, by indication from Russell, he went to pick up Madeleine at the creche using a short cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception ( the yellow dot on our map ) and went between buildings, which he used to fetch and take his daughter from then on
So Gerry ( and Russell ) were aware of a short cut to the Main 24 hour reception ... whether or not Matthew was aware of it is questionable, given that he had no child attending the Mini club, and therefore had no need to make that journey
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The question is what route would Matthew have taken, anyone any ideas?
Can't see any obvious short-cut there ... so all the way round the main road in an L shape ?
GM said in a statement that ROB had shown him a shortcut from the carpark opposite the Tapas restaraunt to Madeleines creche, eta, oops cross posted
I had no idea Madeleines creche was on top of main reception, which makes this map wrong in that regard as Minis club is shown as inside the Tapas resort area as no 6
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oceanclubmap3.gif&target=tlx_pichh91
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I think there is a bit of confusion here in the use of the terms main reception. Just thinking out loud but could there in fact be a reception under the toddlers and twos club in addition to the main Ocean Club 24 hour reception 400 metres away?
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I think there is a bit of confusion here in the use of the terms main reception. Just thinking out loud but could there in fact be a reception under the toddlers and twos club in addition to the main Ocean Club 24 hour reception 400 metres away?
Kate is quite specific about it in her book :
"Gerry had been over to the Mini Club above the twenty four hour reception"
I know you'll be like with a dog with a bone until you get to the bottom of this John 8((()*/
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I think there is a bit of confusion here in the use of the terms main reception. Just thinking out loud but could there in fact be a reception under the toddlers and twos club in addition to the main Ocean Club 24 hour reception 400 metres away?
There is a reception/customer service desk inside the Tapas area, but its not the *main* 24 hours reception, and has nothng *above * it ie any kids club
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So what route did Matthew take to get to what is commonly referred to as the Main Ocean Club Reception?
where is the confusion?
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I notice mention to kids clubs and toddlers clubs
there is no question about what the OP asked
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I think there is a bit of confusion here in the use of the terms main reception. Just thinking out loud but could there in fact be a reception under the toddlers and twos club in addition to the main Ocean Club 24 hour reception 400 metres away?
There is a reception/customer service desk inside the Tapas area, but its not the *main* 24 hours reception, and has nothng *above * it ie any kids club
From Kate's book ( page 51 )
"Madeleine's group, the Mini Club for three- to- fives, was based in a light, airy room above the twenty-four-hour reception"
There is a map on the opposite page which cleary shows the Mini Club as being in the same building as the 24 hr reception ( marked with a blue dot on our map )
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So what route did Matthew take to get to the main Ocean Club reception?
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if people don't know then the answer is that they don't know.
I don't know
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I think the Tapas reception was just as you enter from the main street the Mccanns flat was on, see second picture here, not right at the back near the tennis courts and baby toddler clubs
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MARK_WARNER.htm
This map key is useful too, even if the location of the minis club is wrong
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oceanclubmap3.gif&target=tlx_pichh91
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Before we can establish a route we have to establish what reception they are talking about.
I don't know if you have Kate's book, but I'm sure there are others here who do
Pages 50 and 51 ( which include a map specifying the 24 hour reception and Madeleine's Mini Club as being one and the same location ) make it very clear that they are talking about the Main 24 hour reception, marked with a blue dot on our map
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So what route did Matthew take to get to the main Ocean Club reception?
At this point I am more interested in why Gerry asked Matthew to go to the 24 hour reception when he had already been there himself
admitted off topic then
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Before we can establish a route we have to establish what reception they are talking about.
I don't know if you have Kate's book, but I'm sure there are others here who do
Pages 50 and 51 ( which include a map specifying the 24 hour reception and Madeleine's Mini Club as being one and the same location ) make it very clear that they are talking about the Main 24 hour reception, marked with a blue dot on our map
glad you bought the book - it helped the fund
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Yes, we were right the first time, there was in fact two clubs, a Toddlers and two's Club and a Mini Club.
The 24-hour reception is indeed the one marked blue on the map at the start of the thread. 8@??)(
(http://i.imgur.com/V0FOInd.jpg)
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Map showing the McCanns apartment in red, the Tapas Day Reception in yellow and the main Ocean Club Resort Reception in blue.
(http://i.imgur.com/xwVMaAP.jpg)
This map is distorted but the yellow point is the Tapas one and only sort of club house entrance and the blue one is the main reception entrance on the right of which is the access to the creches.
I wonder whether Matthew took the short cut (main advantage is that there's no car) because his child wasn't in the main reception creche.
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Sorry Anne, passed 3. @)(++(* Work in progress!! 8(0(*
Oh dear! I can see a return to the "At what time was the first telephone call made to police?" thread.
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Yes, this new iformation ( new to some of us anyway ) leads us back to the question of why there was a delay in the police being contacted
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Icabod
It is rather confusing because the various maps are at differnt orientations
This map, thanks to Heriberto, is in the more normal North South orientation. Take no notice of the yellow lines
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZROKhcFpOLg/UIQlveOHgyI/AAAAAAAABfw/XMhz3I1d4CU/s320/GENERAL_LABYRINTH2.bmp)
MC marks the main 24 hour reception and also Madeleines creche
Just under TB is the creche that the twins used
Just under 5A there is a little brown blob, that is the roof of Tapas reception
Hope it helps
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A reconstruction wouldn't have been useless luxury... QED
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A reconstruction wouldn't have been useless luxury... QED
Why do you say QED after that assertion Anne?
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The only confusion appears to be that Madeleine's Club was in a completely different location to the Toddlers and Two's Club located beside the tennis courts. (see earlier photo).
Now maybe we can get back to the original question and that is what route did they take to get to the 24-Hr Reception?
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Problem with kate mccanns book is that there are truths and half truths and lies in it, your average reader who hasnt followed the case or read the files wont know any different and to those who do know a thing or two is helpful or unhelpful
sorry bit off topic
Have I missed something? Where are the lies Red?
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The only confusion appears to be that Madeleine's Club was in a completely different location to the Toddlers and Two's Club located beside the tennis courts. (see earlier photo).
Now maybe we can get back to the original question and that is what route did they take to get to the 24-Hr Reception?
My guess would be that Gerry took the short cut he was used to taking when ferrying Madeleine to and from the Mini Club ( which started through the car park opposite the secondary reception, marked yellow on our map )
Since Matthew is unlikely to have been aware of the short cut ( having no child using the mini club ) he probably took the long way round
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A reconstruction wouldn't have been useless luxury... QED
Why do you say QED after that assertion Anne?
Quod erat demonstrandum sounds pertinent imo.
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Yep
and have you demonstrated it beyond doubt?
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Gilet kindly posted the map below last night in relation to a parallel thread discussion. Anne commented that it went through private grounds although from what I can establish it is a public footpath and right of way alongside a park area.
Can you respond Anne please? 8((()*/
[(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/rec790_zps9d7fd0f2.jpg)
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Icabod
It is rather confusing because the various maps are at differnt orientations
This map, thanks to Heriberto, is in the more normal North South orientation. Take no notice of the yellow lines
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZROKhcFpOLg/UIQlveOHgyI/AAAAAAAABfw/XMhz3I1d4CU/s320/GENERAL_LABYRINTH2.bmp)
MC marks the main 24 hour reception and also Madeleines creche
Just under TB is the creche that the twins used
Just under 5A there is a little brown blob, that is the roof of Tapas reception
Hope it helps
Yes it does, thanks Sadie.
Which is probably 400m from 5A, as stated on the wall. I posted earlier
Down Rua Douter Fransisco Gentils Martins to the Baptista supermarket, turn left onto Rua Joaquim Tiexteara, then left onto Rua Direita. There is also a couple of short cuts, according to Google Earths little man ?>)()<
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Here is the right short cut, as photographed by JdA
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/47e655c6.jpg)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Jeanne_d_Arc.htm
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The reason I posted yesterday, the map which has been reposted above was to highlight how ludicrous the claim was that it would take Matthew eight minutes to go to the OC Club 24 hr Reception (and having a copy of the book I was aware where it was).
When it was suggested that the short cut that I suggested was not possible I countered that it appeared eminently possible to me especially for a man who was very urgently seeking help (even if it may have been private or semi private). However I was already aware that some of the Tapas group knew of a short cut. Indeed that was one of the confirmations that the OC main reception was as on the map because a short cut to the club just beyond the Tapas Bar would have been silly.
In deference to the other poster I accepted that she may have been right. I did go on to point out that this was largely irrelevant because even if Matthew took the main road it would still have been a distance significantly less than 400 metres. One point I did not make yesterday is that the route is also quite steeply downhill for a significant proportion of the jog or run which I would expect a fit man with an urgent task would be doing.
The reality is that such a run/jog or even fast walk would not take eight minutes or anything like eight minutes for a fit person. It would take between one and two minutes (especially with so much of it being quite steeply downhill)
I still think given the facts that they knew the Reception would be staffed by excellent English speakers (and when abroad even well-educated English travellers do prefer to deal with such people), that the people at Reception would be far more used to dealing with emergencies than a busy waiter in a bar and that they might well believe they would be dealing more immediately with senior people at Reception than they would in a bar, it is perfectly natural to assume that would be their first port of call rather than try to make contact with the police via a waiter in the restaurant or bar.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c1600790i_zps0df1e199.jpg)
Click this link and the resultant picture for a larger version of the map.
http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c1600i_zpse2c75b32.jpg (http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c1600i_zpse2c75b32.jpg)
And here is a map showing that the distance at its greatest (from the corner beyond the apartment where the 400m sign is) to being right inside the OC carpark is still just under the 400m mark.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c7_zpsd0a249fc.jpg)
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Here is the right short cut, as photographed by JdA
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/J/47e655c6.jpg)
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Jeanne_d_Arc.htm
Thanks for that Anne. There are two other routes equally as direct but I fear we will never know which one was the favourite for them.
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Well if the route that Jeanne-d-arc guessed at (as I don't think any of us know the actual route) was accurate then it would possibly take even less time.
I can see that this would be an attractive short cut when walking with toddlers as it cuts out much of the roadside distance.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/0c9_zps38c43c8a.jpg)
Whether Matthew took this Jeanne-d-arc speculative route or the more direct route which would (if what we have been told by everybody about PDL being very quiet at night) would have been largely traffic free is irrelevant.
We know where he went and we know it would have taken him only a couple of minutes.