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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on June 04, 2013, 05:34:04 PM
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It has been suggested by the McCanns themselves that all three children had been sedated on the night Madeleine went missing
That raises quite a few questions ( some of which are being discussed on another thread )
I think it is worthy of a thread of it's own though, especially given that Kate, a qualified aneasthetist, wondered if Madeleine's excessive tiredness on that last evening was because she had been sedated sometime during the day, or even the night before
Do members agree with Kate, and think that is a possibility ? ... or do most people think the abductor sedated all three children whilst in the act of taking Madeleine ? ( or even that the children were unlikely to have been sedated at all )
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The version of Calpol, which Gonc claimed the McCanns used was not even made in 2007..
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The version of Calpol, which Gonc claimed the McCanns used was not even made in 2007..
I understand that Amaral thinks the McCanns routinely gave their children medicine with sedative properties, but this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
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Yep Amaral pushed that theory Icabod, but as Muratfan says, seems the calpol he was inferring being used was not available at the time Madeleine went missing.
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Yep Amaral pushed that theory Icabod, but as Muratfan says, seems the calpol he was inferring being used was not available at the time Madeleine went missing.
Do you agree with Kate's suggestion that Madeleine might have been sedated during the day or even the night before ?
Or are you more inclined to believe all three children were sedated by the abductor when he was taking Madeleine ?
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this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
An important topic, for sure. I have some difficulty to imagine how Madeleine was technically sedated. Chloroform or ether ? Then inhalation, injection ? It's not as quick as in Tintin where chloroformed ones fall like flies ! How long would it take to have a child unconscious during at least one hour ? And what kind of device ?
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However, I have wondered if someone gave them special sweeties or dosed their drinks at tea time, because the children were unusually tired that evening and were too tired to go for their usual play in the little playground by the tennis courts before going to bed.
I would speculate that it might only have been a moderate dosage, but then Madeleine must have been further sedated/anaesthetised to remain asleep when carried out on that cool blustery evening.
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this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
An important topic, for sure. I have some difficulty to imagine how Madeleine was technically sedated. Chloroform or ether ? Then inhalation, injection ? It's not as quick as in Tintin where chloroformed ones fall like flies ! How long would it take to have a child unconscious during at least one hour ? And what kind of device ?
Anne, it is really quick. Rather horrid but soon over, believe me.
I think it was Marilyn of Switzerland, who wondered if Madeleine had been tazered. I think she said tazered, pls correct me if I am wrong.
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this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
An important topic, for sure. I have some difficulty to imagine how Madeleine was technically sedated. Chloroform or ether ? Then inhalation, injection ? It's not as quick as in Tintin where chloroformed ones fall like flies ! How long would it take to have a child unconscious during at least one hour ? And what kind of device ?
Dunno..try it and see
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this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
An important topic, for sure. I have some difficulty to imagine how Madeleine was technically sedated. Chloroform or ether ? Then inhalation, injection ? It's not as quick as in Tintin where chloroformed ones fall like flies ! How long would it take to have a child unconscious during at least one hour ? And what kind of device ?
Anne, it is really quick. Rather horrid but soon over, believe me.
How quick sadie ?
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Do you agree with Kate's suggestion that Madeleine might have been sedated during the day or even the night before ?
Or are you more inclined to believe all three children were sedated by the abductor when he was taking Madeleine ?
Mrs McCann noticed Madeleine was unusually tired. As her mother, she knew for sure. But I think there's another explanation for Madeleine's tiredness. Even imagining the abductor got in the night before, I don't see the point of sedating Madeleine then. These sedation products have a short half-life.
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Maybe she came round and had to be further aneasthetised?
Remember on 3A's someone reported that a scream came from the Staff quarters? Maybe she had awakened and been re-aneasthetised. We simlpy dont know.
BTW The staff quarters are only about 50 metres up the road from the Smiths sighting.
?Bundleman came down Rua D'Escola from the very direction
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this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
An important topic, for sure. I have some difficulty to imagine how Madeleine was technically sedated. Chloroform or ether ? Then inhalation, injection ? It's not as quick as in Tintin where chloroformed ones fall like flies ! How long would it take to have a child unconscious during at least one hour ? And what kind of device ?
Anne, it is really quick. Rather horrid but soon over, believe me.
How quick sadie ?
Very very quick. just long enough to smell the damned stuf and think "Oh gawd" and you are gone.
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icabodcrane
Do members agree with Kate, and think that is a possibility ?
yes I do.
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icabodcrane
Do members agree with Kate, and think that is a possibility ?
yes I do.
I'm not convinced of the possibility that Madeleine was sedated during the day ... it just doesn't seem likely that someone could have drugged Madeleine whilst she was in the creche
Similarly, I don't think the suggestion that she was drugged the night before is realistic. Madeleine woke normally the next morning and Kate makes no mention of her appearing tired at lunchtime
If the abductor used sedation on all three children then it is much more likely that he did it whilst in the act of taking Madeleine
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Quote from Kate's book - about the morning of the 3rd.
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The only other unexplained detail I remember from that morning was a large, brown stain I noticed on Madeleine's pink Eeyore pajama top. I couldn't recall seeing it the night before and I had no idea how it might have got there. It looked like a tea stain. Gerry and I do drink quite a bit of tea, and Madeleine too, would have the odd small cup. So at the time I just assumed it was a drink spillage that had escaped our attention, and that might well be all it was. But now of course we can no longer make assumptions about anything that can't be accounted for.
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this thread is with regard to an abductor, and how sedation might have been used by him
An important topic, for sure. I have some difficulty to imagine how Madeleine was technically sedated. Chloroform or ether ? Then inhalation, injection ? It's not as quick as in Tintin where chloroformed ones fall like flies ! How long would it take to have a child unconscious during at least one hour ? And what kind of device ?
Anne, it is really quick. Rather horrid but soon over, believe me.
How quick sadie ?
Very very quick. just long enough to smell the damned stuf and think "Oh gawd" and you are gone.
How long does it have effect sadie ? ... and is it usual for people to wake with no apparent side-effects ?
The reason I ask is, the twins slept heavily throughout the mayhem in the apartment that night, but when they were woken to go to another apartment they did not display any ill-effects ... would that be normal ?
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The reason I ask is, the twins slept heavily throughout the mayhem in the apartment that night, but when they were woken to go to another apartment they did not display any ill-effects ... would that be normal ?
I think they didn't wake up when they were carried to another flat. Many found it strange, but likely found it was better this way. I've never seen comment about the way they woke up the following morning.
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The children were most probably tired out from the daily exertions which would have been somewhat different from that in Rothley. This combined with the climate which the children weren't used to would have had a tiring effect on them all.
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Icabod, I have my appendicitis operation under chloroform , I think and another operation Tonsils and Adenoids but I was only 6 or 7 for both these ops.
How long do these ops take? I dont know and maybe the chloroform was readministered? Dunno.
I do know that I was in hospital several times longer than a patient would be today. I think over 2 weeks for appendicitis and off school for several weeks. About 6 weeks in all, i think.
But I was very young, could be a little off mark.
Have also had dental work done under chloroform. I think it is tricky to administer correctly. A doctor was with the dentist whilst it was done. Awful chemical smell.
I favour the likelyhood that all three were given sweeties, or hot chocolate say, with a milder sedative hidden within at, or before, tea time. They were too tired to go and play as usual.
About feeling unwell afterwards, I cant really remember but I fancy that I vomitted a bit.
Sorry but I have to go now. Hubby is hungry ! LOL
And then we have a motorway journey. Might be here to give my chloroform impressions later if wanted.
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The reason I ask is, the twins slept heavily throughout the mayhem in the apartment that night, but when they were woken to go to another apartment they did not display any ill-effects ... would that be normal ?
I think they didn't wake up when they were carried to another flat. Many found it strange, but likely found it was better this way. I've never seen comment about the way they woke up the following morning.
KM n her book says at first light she and GM went out searching for at least an hour and on their return to FPs flat the twins were up and about playing
In answer to the OP, its entirely probably that Madeleine might be sedated if she was taken, even by car, for sure if being carried around the streets of PDL, and especially if an hour or so later than the assumed 9.15 time
I do not think that any abductor would do any dry run and sedate her the night before, neither makes sense, and even less, someone doing this on the Thursday during the day
I also do not believe the twins were sedated by any abdudtor, there would be no point JMHO
Certainly certain questions arise, one being why, in KMs own words she was checking the twins for signs of life and thnkng they had been drugged did she not arrange for them to be taken to a hospital
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Icabod, I have my appendicitis operation under chloroform , I think and another operation Tonsils and Adenoids but I was only 6 or 7 for both these ops.
How long do these ops take? I dont know and maybe the chloroform was readministered? Dunno.
I do know that I was in hospital several times longer than a patient would be today. I think over 2 weeks for appendicitis and off school for several weeks. About 6 weeks in all, i think.
But I was very young, could be a little off mark.
Have also had dental work done under chloroform. I think it is tricky to administer correctly. A doctor was with the dentist whilst it was done. Awful chemical smell.
I favour the likelyhood that all three were given sweeties, or hot chocolate say, with a milder sedative hidden within at, or before, tea time. They were too tired to go and play as usual.
About feeling unwell afterwards, I cant really remember but I fancy that I vomitted a bit.
Sorry but I have to go now. Hubby is hungry ! LOL
And then we have a motorway journey. Might be here to give my chloroform impressions later if wanted.
Thanks sadie
I remember times at the dentist and a broken arm once ... I was always sick from effects of the anaesthetic too
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Witness Statement Statement by Jim McGarvey
In relation to the above I would like to mention that at approximately 20.00 on the 5th May, I arrived at the McCann apartment with other family communications officers. We were asked several times during this meeting about questions that Gerald and Kate would like to have followed up and responded to by the PJ.
I remember that during the meetings, Kate revealed that Madeleine had spoken with her in the morning of her disappearance and said that she remembered the twins had cried during the night and that she wanted to know why neither her mother or father had appeared. Kate asked herself whether this fact could have any relation with Madeleine’s disappearance.
Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine’s abduction.
This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my knowledge.
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so on 5th May the Mccanns wanted to English communication officer to ask the PJ about the possibility of drugs being used.
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There is ever chance that the abductor used a small swab of cotton wool and some chloroform as it is very simple to make at home. 8(0(*
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so on 5th May the Mccanns wanted to English communication officer to ask the PJ about the possibility of drugs being used.
is there anything in the files to indicate what action the PJ took?
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It has been suggested by the McCanns themselves that all three children had been sedated on the night Madeleine went missing
That raises quite a few questions ( some of which are being discussed on another thread )
I think it is worthy of a thread of it's own though, especially given that Kate, a qualified aneasthetist, wondered if Madeleine's excessive tiredness on that last evening was because she had been sedated sometime during the day, or even the night before
Do members agree with Kate, and think that is a possibility ? ... or do most people think the abductor sedated all three children whilst in the act of taking Madeleine ? ( or even that the children were unlikely to have been sedated at all )
as the Mccanns raised this officially with the Police on 5th May - where is the Police report about this matter?
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Parents know about these things.
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Parents may well query these things but apparently the Police in charge didn't do anything about it.
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Parents may well query these things but apparently the Police in charge didn't do anything about it.
Were they asked to? if so, who by? And where is the evidence they were.
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Parents may well query these things but apparently the Police in charge didn't do anything about it.
Were they asked to? if so, who by? And where is the evidence they were.
you did read the quote I gave didn't you?
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There is ever chance that the abductor used a small swab of cotton wool and some chloroform as it is very simple to make at home. 8(0(*
Yes, it is simple to make, and a soaked pad could easily be carried in a plastic bag in your pocket.
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Parents may well query these things but apparently the Police in charge didn't do anything about it.
Were they asked to? if so, who by? And where is the evidence they were.
it is only you who raised getting the twins tested, the OP is:
It has been suggested by the McCanns themselves that all three children had been sedated on the night Madeleine went missing
That raises quite a few questions ( some of which are being discussed on another thread )
I think it is worthy of a thread of it's own though, especially given that Kate, a qualified aneasthetist, wondered if Madeleine's excessive tiredness on that last evening was because she had been sedated sometime during the day, or even the night before
Do members agree with Kate, and think that is a possibility ? ... or do most people think the abductor sedated all three children whilst in the act of taking Madeleine ? ( or even that the children were unlikely to have been sedated at all )
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red I am not going to bother tonight - others can read and make their minds up.
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Parents may well query these things but apparently the Police in charge didn't do anything about it.
Were they asked to? if so, who by? And where is the evidence they were.
it is only you who raised getting the twins tested, the OP is:
It has been suggested by the McCanns themselves that all three children had been sedated on the night Madeleine went missing
That raises quite a few questions ( some of which are being discussed on another thread )
I think it is worthy of a thread of it's own though, especially given that Kate, a qualified aneasthetist, wondered if Madeleine's excessive tiredness on that last evening was because she had been sedated sometime during the day, or even the night before
Do members agree with Kate, and think that is a possibility ? ... or do most people think the abductor sedated all three children whilst in the act of taking Madeleine ? ( or even that the children were unlikely to have been sedated at all )
Not off topic all part and parcel of the debate just as BK was part and parcel of the halligen debate, not going to respond to any more of your snapper dog at my heels posts tonight
8((()*/
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red I am not going to bother tonight - others can read and make their minds up.
Good choice
Off to watch spooks, great bbc
8((()*/
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Slightly off-topic, but something else I've found revealing is this question put to the PJ via those liaison officers on Saturday 5th May, two days after Madeleine's abduction:
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Those who insist the McCanns hid something sinister to do with drugs should put that in their pipe and smoke it ...
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Slightly off-topic, but something else I've found revealing is this question put to the PJ via those liaison officers on Saturday 5th May, two days after Madeleine's abduction:
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Those who insist the McCanns hid something sinister to do with drugs should put that in their pipe and smoke it ...
Why would they want to know that? Why would it matter days later?
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Slightly off-topic, but something else I've found revealing is this question put to the PJ via those liaison officers on Saturday 5th May, two days after Madeleine's abduction:
They also wanted to know whether the PJ had any evidence that would suggest that the person who took Madeleine had used any substance to facilitate the abduction.
Those who insist the McCanns hid something sinister to do with drugs should put that in their pipe and smoke it ...
I don't get your logic to be honest.
Now if they had asked for the twins to be tested to see if they had been given anything I'd see your point.
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I don't get your logic to be honest.
Now if they had asked for the twins to be tested to see if they had been given anything I'd see your point.
Distressed as she was, if Kate had had the slightest reason to fear for the health of either twin, she would no doubt have raised the alarm.
Even Amaral says in his book, somewhere, that the twins woke up when they were moved to another building.
They were fine.
Aside from a distraction to keep [ censored word ]s hating, the question of relevance to substances is whether the abductor(s) used any, or whether exhausted children simply slept soundly through the noise and commotion.
That's all ...
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I don't get your logic to be honest.
Now if they had asked for the twins to be tested to see if they had been given anything I'd see your point.
Why, didn't the PJ get them tested?
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Distressed as she was, if Kate had had the slightest reason to fear for the health of either twin, she would no doubt have raised the alarm.
Even Amaral says in his book, somewhere, that the twins woke up when they were moved to another building.
They were fine.
Aside from a distraction to keep [ censored word ]s hating, the question of relevance to substances is whether the abductor(s) used any, or whether exhausted children simply slept soundly through the noise and commotion.
That's all ...
The twins didn't wake when the were moved to the Paynes apartment and we have ample evidence in the witness statements to that.
Further in her book Kate describes putting her hands on the twins backs for 'signs of life'. That doesn't sound like a mother who thinks her children are 'fine'.
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Just noticed this from the Archiving Process
Finally, the fact that, despite all that confusion and all that noise, the twins continued to sleep, as mentioned by GNR Officer Jose Maria Baptista Roque "the children never woke up, remaining in a ventral decubitus position, not moving during the search and afterwards" remains unexplained. Nevertheless, a Team from the Criminal Police Lab, on the 4th of May 2007, eliminated the existence of any product that could have been ministered to the missing child, in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness
I suppose that means that the forensics people found no traces of chloroform or any other sedative ?
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Why, didn't the PJ get them tested?
I have asked myself the same question many times over the years.
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Distressed as she was, if Kate had had the slightest reason to fear for the health of either twin, she would no doubt have raised the alarm.
Even Amaral says in his book, somewhere, that the twins woke up when they were moved to another building.
They were fine.
Aside from a distraction to keep [ censored word ]s hating, the question of relevance to substances is whether the abductor(s) used any, or whether exhausted children simply slept soundly through the noise and commotion.
That's all ...
Did he say that? Cite?
Again, why would it matter days later to the Mccanns if the twins had been sedated....as you say, they were *fine*, and how could police have any evidence of this if they did not test them?
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Did he say that? Cite?
Again, why would it matter days later to the Mccanns if the twins had been sedated....as you say, they were *fine*, and how could police have any evidence of this if they did not test them?
Amaral Chapter 11.
- The twins only woke up when they were being transferred to the other apartment. They sleep deeply, those English children…
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Amaral Chapter 11.
- The twins only woke up when they were being transferred to the other apartment. They sleep deeply, those English children…
Oh thanks, I wonder who gave him that idea then
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Oh thanks, I wonder who gave him that idea then
I wonder how he knew, cos he wasn't there. He's not lying, is he?
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I wonder how he knew, cos he wasn't there. He's not lying, is he?
Why ask me? Ask yourself why he would LIE about something like that, if you think he asserts the kids were drugged by the parents
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Amaral Chapter 11.
- The twins only woke up when they were being transferred to the other apartment. They sleep deeply, those English children…
Then he is simply wrong.
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Just noticed this from the Archiving Process
Finally, the fact that, despite all that confusion and all that noise, the twins continued to sleep, as mentioned by GNR Officer Jose Maria Baptista Roque "the children never woke up, remaining in a ventral decubitus position, not moving during the search and afterwards" remains unexplained. Nevertheless, a Team from the Criminal Police Lab, on the 4th of May 2007, eliminated the existence of any product that could have been ministered to the missing child, in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness
I suppose that means that the forensics people found no traces of chloroform or any other sedative ?
Exactly.
For instance benzodiazepins (gone in less than 24 hours) dissolved in a bottle or administrated rectally could leave traces on the sheets.
Mr and Mrs McCann likely referred to these eventual traces when they were with the UK liaison officers on the 5th.
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Just noticed this from the Archiving Process
Finally, the fact that, despite all that confusion and all that noise, the twins continued to sleep, as mentioned by GNR Officer Jose Maria Baptista Roque "the children never woke up, remaining in a ventral decubitus position, not moving during the search and afterwards" remains unexplained. Nevertheless, a Team from the Criminal Police Lab, on the 4th of May 2007, eliminated the existence of any product that could have been ministered to the missing child, in order to maintain her in a state of unconsciousness
I suppose that means that the forensics people found no traces of chloroform or any other sedative ?
What forensic checks did they do?
Was it hunting for a hankie in the bedroom area? A needle / syringe? Sniffing the pillow?
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What forensic checks did they do?
Was it hunting for a hankie in the bedroom area? A needle / syringe? Sniffing the pillow?
Well I don't know, but whatever forensic checks they made they seemed enough to satisfy the Prosecutor that the existence of sedative material had consequently been eliminated
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What forensic checks did they do?
Was it hunting for a hankie in the bedroom area? A needle / syringe? Sniffing the pillow?
What a facetious and snidy dismissive post, they checked for substances such as chloroform as well you know
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
And oral or injected substances wouldnt leave any trace on th bed would they????
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What forensic checks did they do?
Was it hunting for a hankie in the bedroom area? A needle / syringe? Sniffing the pillow?
Sniffing the pillow ?
It's somewhere in the files, I've seen it recently. I think they analysed the bedding.
Sorry, Redblossom, I only see your post now !
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Sniffing the pillow ?
It's somewhere in the files, I've seen it recently. I think they analysed the bedding.
Sorry, Redblossom, I only see your post now !
Carana must think the Pj forensics people are dogs, pathetic
@)(++(*
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What a facetious and snidy dismissive post, they checked for substances such as chloroform as well you know
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
And oral or injected substances wouldnt leave any trace on th bed would they????
Injection without the mother and doctor noticing ?
The best, doctors say, is the rectal way : the quickest one and no trace.
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Carana must think the Pj forensics people are dogs, pathetic
@)(++(*
No. Carana might have thought the scientific police used those dogs who smell cancer, drugs, etc.
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Injection without the mother and doctor noticing ?
The best, doctors say, is the rectal way : the quickest one and no trace.
Oh you mean if she was sedated the night before or during the day? Sure, but dont forget someone, like the COOK or waiter or someone sneeking past at the tapas bar while they were having their dinner spiked her food or drink, yes right
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Oh you mean if she was sedated the night before or during the day? Sure, but dont forget someone, like the COOK or waiter or someone sneeking past at the tapas bar while they were having their dinner spiked her food or drink, yes right
A doctor friend of mine thought the abductor was someone who knew the kids were sedated and took advantage of this. Sedating a child who's not yours and is on his own , if not a baby, is difficult to imagine.
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A doctor friend of mine thought the abductor was someone who knew the kids were sedated and took advantage of this. Sedating a child who's not yours and is on his own , if not a baby, is difficult to imagine.
Not sure what you mean Anne. How could anyone know the kids were sedated?? Any abductor would probably use sedation if thrywere going to trapse around the streets with a taken child,which is a joke anyway, not if put into a car quickly, no sedation required
Question remains, why would the mccanns want to know from the police if any evidence was found that sedatives were involved?
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He's quite a story teller, isn't he. Amaral, that is.
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Not sure what you mean Anne. How could anyone know the kids were sedated?? Any abductor would probably use sedation if thrywere going to trapse around the streets with a taken child,which is a joke anyway, not if put into a car quickly, no sedation required
Question remains, why would the mccanns want to know from the police if any evidence was found that sedatives were involved?
My friend knew what everybody knew in France about this case : not much. As he couldn't imagine how an intruder would sedate a child, he deduced the abductor took advantage of a sedation he knew about. That sounds unlikely here, but it made me try to imagine the modus operandi. As you say, a bit of chloroform, careful not to inhale it yourself, and right to the car, all right. But the child carrier walked at least almost an hour with a sleeping Madeleine who had no mask on her face. How was that possible ?
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What a facetious and snidy dismissive post, they checked for substances such as chloroform as well you know
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
And oral or injected substances wouldnt leave any trace on th bed would they????
How was the pillow inspected?
There's nothing in the files to indicate that the pillow had been taken away for inspection, nor is there any indication as to any test they may have done in situ.
So what did they do? Sniff it to see if they could detect any obvious chemical smell? By this time it would have been the next day.
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My friend knew what everybody knew in France about this case : not much. As he couldn't imagine how an intruder would sedate a child, he deduced the abductor took advantage of a sedation he knew about. That sounds unlikely here, but it made me try to imagine the modus operandi. As you say, a bit of chloroform, careful not to inhale it yourself, and right to the car, all right. But the child carrier walked at least almost an hour with a sleeping Madeleine who had no mask on her face. How was that possible ?
I dont think Madeleine was carried in the streets, let alone an hour or so later after being taken, its stupid at best theory
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How was the pillow inspected?
There's nothing in the files to indicate that the pillow had been taken away for inspection, nor is there any indication as to any test they may have done in situ.
So what did they do? Sniff it to see if they could detect any obvious chemical smell? By this time it would have been the next day.
At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins
from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.
At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained.
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How was the pillow inspected?
There's nothing in the files to indicate that the pillow had been taken away for inspection, nor is there any indication as to any test they may have done in situ.
So what did they do? Sniff it to see if they could detect any obvious chemical smell? By this time it would have been the next day.
Why dont you ask the police science lab who and how and where they did it? how would I or anyone here know? bit of a stupid question isnt it, fact is the tests were done, and testament to scrapping DCIs assertions that the bedding wasnt tested
And you could also, if you find out what they did, and its not to your satisfadtion, advise them on what to do next time
@)(++(*
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At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins
from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.
At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained.
Thats the twins cots nothng to do with madeleins bed
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Why dont you ask the police science lab who and how and where they did it? how would I or anyone here know? bit of a stupid question isnt it, fact is the tests were done, and testament to scrapping DCIs assertions that the bedding wasnt tested
And you could also, if you find out what they did, and its not to your satisfadtion, advise them on what to do next time
@)(++(*
You keep telling yourself, they were done. No they were not! Where's your results, for this?
The only test done was on Madelines pillow case from home. Oh and the duvet cover from the other bed, or should I say, a patch from duvet.
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Why dont you ask the police science lab who and how and where they did it? how would I or anyone here know? bit of a stupid question isnt it, fact is the tests were done, and testament to scrapping DCIs assertions that the bedding wasnt tested
And you could also, if you find out what they did, and its not to your satisfadtion, advise them on what to do next time
@)(++(*
I agree totally. Who here can answer your questions, Carana ? Pretend you're writing a book comparing the police techniques in the EU and may be the Portugueses will open their doors to you.
Madeleine's bedding wasn't taken to the first floor, at least, it didn't have to, unfortunately. The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
About the tests made inside of the crime scene and about the bags that were taken for analysis out of the crime scene, it's like in the UK : no one knows, but everybody trusts.
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You keep telling yourself, they were done. No they were not! Where's your results, for this?
i have no need to keep telling myself anythng, the PJ files state the pillow was tested, for chloroform and ether, as in my link given earlier, and the results were negative, take it up with the Pj science lab, not my problem, just yours at this stage
@)(++(*
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i have no need to keep telling myself anythng, the PJ files state the pillow was tested, for chloroform and ether, as in my link given earlier, and the results were negative, take it up with the Pj science lab, not my problem, just yours at this stage
@)(++(*
Lets have a cite, then! @)(++(*
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Why dont you ask the police science lab who and how and where they did it? how would I or anyone here know? bit of a stupid question isnt it, fact is the tests were done, and testament to scrapping DCIs assertions that the bedding wasnt tested
And you could also, if you find out what they did, and its not to your satisfadtion, advise them on what to do next time
@)(++(*
If I had found any information in the files I wouldn't have asked the question...
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Lets have a cite, then! @)(++(*
Do you not read thread posts? the cite is in this thread, go look for it, its not hard, clue, my post contains bigger than nrmal font size plus link
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If I had found any information in the files I wouldn't have asked the question...
Its a stupid question to ask of people who dont work for the science lab, were not there, and dont have access like you to anything further than the files
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Chloroform onto a handkerchief and administered onto the subjects mouth and nose area, will not leave any trace on pillows or bedding..
Why, because you do not need a lot of it to knock you out, so someone is not going to pour a bottles worth over someone
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If I had found any information in the files I wouldn't have asked the question...
If the PJ files aren't sufficiently informative, try asking the LC about the Portuguese scientific police work. They surely know better than anybody here, unless a cop is a poster here.
In democracies, common citizens trust the PGR among other authorities. Social life would be unbearable if you'd start doubting every authority, Carana.
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Chloroform onto a handkerchief and administered onto the subjects mouth and nose area, will not leave any trace on pillows or bedding..
Why, because you do not need a lot of it to knock you out, so someone is not going to pour a bottles worth over someone
Good job the p j tested for it and other stuff anyway then, but some dont believe they did even when they said so lol, had enough for a while here, getting pathetically ridiculous
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Chloroform in Madeleine's bed would have left traces. She wasn't elsewhere since her father saw her in her bed 5 minutes before she was taken. She wasn't chloroformed then.
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Where does it mention the bedding (all the bedding) being tested? its all about the other bed, bar the pillow area. How ridculous, testing one piece.
On the single bed opposite to that from which the child disappeared, despite it being impregnated the red-coloured chemical product referred to, the search for hairs proceeded,that search having been negative.
After the recovery of hairs described above there proceeded the search for possible traces of semen, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, there being identified various [several] areas where fluorescence characteristic of this type of trace evidence was seen.
The areas where the fluorescence was seen were submitted to a "Phosphatise test" search there being a slightly positive reaction (purplish colour) only in area of the bed-cover of the single bed opposite to the bed from where the minor disappeared, a piece of that bed-cover being collected and placed inside a paper envelope in accordance with instructions issued by the Biology Section of the LPC, it being referenced as trace evidence #5;
A search was also made for possible biological traces and fibres on the single bed from where the minor disappeared, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, the result obtained having been negative.
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
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Good job the p j tested for it and other stuff anyway then, but some dont believe they did even when they said so lol, had enough for a while here, getting pathetically ridiculous
How can you test for something that will never ever be there. Not saying it happened , however, a fatal oral dose of chloroform may be as small as 10 mL.
Cough syrups containing chloroform can still be legally purchased in pharmacies and supermarkets in the UK
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10 ML on a tissue, will not spill onto bedding or a pillow..... now argue that please
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform
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I agree totally. Who here can answer your questions, Carana ? Pretend you're writing a book comparing the police techniques in the EU and may be the Portugueses will open their doors to you.
Madeleine's bedding wasn't taken to the first floor, at least, it didn't have to, unfortunately. The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
About the tests made inside of the crime scene and about the bags that were taken for analysis out of the crime scene, it's like in the UK : no one knows, but everybody trusts.
OMG!
The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
So if the twins, had been Chloroformed ???
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I agree totally. Who here can answer your questions, Carana ? Pretend you're writing a book comparing the police techniques in the EU and may be the Portugueses will open their doors to you.
Madeleine's bedding wasn't taken to the first floor, at least, it didn't have to, unfortunately. The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
About the tests made inside of the crime scene and about the bags that were taken for analysis out of the crime scene, it's like in the UK : no one knows, but everybody trusts.
Hairs, finger / handprints and a test done on a bedspread were documented (even though hairs from the bed disappeared and the initial bedspread test eventually turned out to be innocuous, but that is beside the point).
If the pillowcase from her bed in 5A had been taken for any kind of test, why is that not mentioned? If a specific test had been done in situ, I haven't found any details of that either.
Hence my question.
Perhaps there was no specific test to be done. A substance on a small hankie may not have even contaminated the pillowcase.
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If the PJ files aren't sufficiently informative, try asking the LC about the Portuguese scientific police work. They surely know better than anybody here, unless a cop is a poster here.
In democracies, common citizens trust the PGR among other authorities. Social life would be unbearable if you'd start doubting every authority, Carana.
Why make the files accessible in the first place then?
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Would the window of opportunity (the abductor theory) regarding Chloroform use to sedate Madeleine, not have been too short? Chloroform doesn't work as quick as in the movies and for one to have success in sedation, you would have the correct ratio of dosage to body weight (or a close estimate).
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Would the window of opportunity (the abductor theory) regarding Chloroform use to sedate Madeleine, not have been too short? Chloroform doesn't work as quick as in the movies and for one to have success in sedation, you would have the correct ratio of dosage to body weight (or a close estimate).
Depends how the body reacts to it, bear in mind she was 3 when she went missing. Three year olds will not have the same resistance as an adult
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How can you test for something that will never ever be there. Not saying it happened , however, a fatal oral dose of chloroform may be as small as 10 mL.
Cough syrups containing chloroform can still be legally purchased in pharmacies and supermarkets in the UK
This is true, they contain ether as well, but the very small quantities (classified with the perfumes) are within the range authorized in the EU. No way to sedate a child with syrup !
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Depends how the body reacts to it, bear in mind she was 3 when she went missing. Three year olds will not have the same resistance as an adult
Yes I understand what you saying, but would, for arguments sake, 3 minutes be enough to sedate a 3 year old child AND then still remove her from the apartment?
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Why make the files accessible in the first place then?
Because they thought the public interest had been very much solicited and deserved it. And also the law allowed it. It was unthinkable that the McCanns, who wanted them, had access to the files and not the public. Do you agree with this ?
The British have another philosophy, this is why you don't have access to the LC files.
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Why necessarily chloroform?
November 19, 2007 - 18:13
Police have announced that Ylenia, a five-year-old girl from Appenzell whose body was found in September, was poisoned with toluene - a chemical used in solvents.
Her suspected killer, a "dangerous and calculating" 67-year-old Swiss man, had prepared the crime several weeks in advance, the investigating authorities said on Monday.
"The high dose of [toluene] led to her death. Ylenia's body did not reveal any signs of a sexual attack, but this doesn't exclude the fact that the motive of the abduction may have been sexual," the examining judge, Erich Feineis, told a news conference in the eastern city of St Gallen.
Her abductor had earlier used another solvent to render the young girl unconscious.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/archive/Abducted_girl_died_of_poisoning.html?cid=6263812
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Chloroform is part of our collective unconscious mind, since Queen Victoria had her nth child using it. It was discovered 180 years ago ! It's a solvent, like the product used by the Swiss, but nowadays, because it's dangerous, it's substituted by dichloromethane. Be sure, or try it ;) tests were done to dichloromethane also.
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Yes I understand what you saying, but would, for arguments sake, 3 minutes be enough to sedate a 3 year old child AND then still remove her from the apartment?
Anyone?
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OMG!
The cops were delicate enough not to require the twins' beddings as they yet thought Madeleine had got lost.
So if the twins, had been Chloroformed ???
DCI ! Chloroform has a very short effect.
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Because they thought the public interest had been very much solicited and deserved it. And also the law allowed it. It was unthinkable that the McCanns, who wanted them, had access to the files and not the public. Do you agree with this ?
The British have another philosophy, this is why you don't have access to the LC files.
That's not my question, Anne.
They made the the reports of the forensic team public, e.g., they tested a stain on a bedspread. If they had done a specific test on the pillowcase, why would that not appear in the files?
That is why I'm wondering what that pillow inspection actually was. It may well have been simply sniffing it to detect any noticeable odour - but which may have dissipated by the next day.
The files show all the hair collected in various locations and packed into envelopes, but no mention of the bedding. If the bedding had been sent off in evidence bags, I find it odd that it's not part of the report.
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Anyone?
No idea, sorry
The suggestion is that all three children were sedated, and sedated very expertly it appears ... the next morning the twins were up and playing with no discernable after effects
I imagine it would take longer than three minutes to do that ( are you refering to the 3 minute window available if the man Jane saw was the abductor ? )
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Hairs, finger / handprints and a test done on a bedspread were documented (even though hairs from the bed disappeared and the initial bedspread test eventually turned out to be innocuous, but that is beside the point).
If the pillowcase from her bed in 5A had been taken for any kind of test, why is that not mentioned? If a specific test had been done in situ, I haven't found any details of that either.
Hence my question.
Perhaps there was no specific test to be done. A substance on a small hankie may not have even contaminated the pillowcase.
Carana, I understand your doubts, I really do, but we can't answer them and the effect of your doubts, on this forum, is to reinforce the idea the PJ was more incompetent as the average. I find it totally unacceptable. I lost empathy for the McCann family when I read what Mrs McCann had the courage to say of officers to whom she gave no opportunity to answer : Tweedledum and Tweedledee, when your child is abducted, I thought I had an hallucination !
I think that if you can write it down clearly and argumentatively to the scientific police, they'll answer you. The better exposed, the better the chances to get an answer.
I can translate it for you.
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Where does it mention the bedding (all the bedding) being tested? its all about the other bed, bar the pillow area. How ridculous, testing one piece.
On the single bed opposite to that from which the child disappeared, despite it being impregnated the red-coloured chemical product referred to, the search for hairs proceeded,that search having been negative.
After the recovery of hairs described above there proceeded the search for possible traces of semen, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, there being identified various [several] areas where fluorescence characteristic of this type of trace evidence was seen.
The areas where the fluorescence was seen were submitted to a "Phosphatise test" search there being a slightly positive reaction (purplish colour) only in area of the bed-cover of the single bed opposite to the bed from where the minor disappeared, a piece of that bed-cover being collected and placed inside a paper envelope in accordance with instructions issued by the Biology Section of the LPC, it being referenced as trace evidence #5;
A search was also made for possible biological traces and fibres on the single bed from where the minor disappeared, using a variable-wave light source appropriate for the task, the result obtained having been negative.
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative
There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.
The pillow was 'inspected' for the presence of a smell - and is described as a 'search' not a 'test'. If it was forensically 'tested' they would have said which test was applied.
The only method of 'searching' for a smell that I know of by humans is via their noses.
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The pillow was 'inspected' for the presence of a smell - and is described as a 'search' not a 'test'. If it was forensically 'tested' they would have said which test was applied.
The only method of 'searching' for a smell that I know of by humans is via their noses.
Dogs' noses are much better : one million more developped !
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No idea, sorry
The suggestion is that all three children were sedated, and sedated very expertly it appears ... the next morning the twins were up and playing with no discernable after effects
I imagine it would take longer than three minutes to do that ( are you refering to the 3 minute window available if the man Jane saw was the abductor ? )
Yes. If one speculates and takes the shortest known window of opportunity as a measure, then would it be possible for sedation and removal to have taken place? Or would for example a knock on the head and removal have been quicker? Was there time enough to sedate a child is what I am trying to determine.
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Yes. If one speculates and takes the shortest known window of opportunity as a measure, then would it be possible for sedation and removal to have taken place? Or would for example a knock on the head and removal have been quicker? Was there time enough to sedate a child is what I am trying to determine.
I'm prone to think there was not enough time, if we believe Jane T. A knock on the head ? But she would recover quickly or not at all.
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Chloroform onto a handkerchief and administered onto the subjects mouth and nose area, will not leave any trace on pillows or bedding..
Why, because you do not need a lot of it to knock you out, so someone is not going to pour a bottles worth over someone
Chloroform administered in this way would leave tell tale signs around the nose and mouth.
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Anyone?
I think it would be possible, becos Chloroform acts very quickly
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I'm old enough not to know very much about drugs. But from what I read and hear - things have moved on considerably since chloroform - what with date rape drugs and kids sniffing all kinds of stuff. It could even be that the abductor was spoilt for choice if he/they planned to use them.
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Yes. If one speculates and takes the shortest known window of opportunity as a measure, then would it be possible for sedation and removal to have taken place? Or would for example a knock on the head and removal have been quicker? Was there time enough to sedate a child is what I am trying to determine.
It's an excellent question
We have to allow for entry to the apartment, the sedation of three children, the opening of the shutters and window, the lifting and removal of Madeleine ( I hate typing that ) and then the exit of the apartment, through the carpark and out across the road ... all in three minutes
Could it be done ?
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Even in 5 minutes, unlikely. Hence once more the need to reconstruct..
Reading Mo Stache, I can't help imagining a cartoon strip. But something real happened. And the modus operandi is crucial.
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It's an excellent question
We have to allow for entry to the apartment, the sedation of three children, the opening of the shutters and window, the lifting and removal of Madeleine ( I hate typing that ) and then the exit of the apartment, through the carpark and out across the road ... all in three minutes
Could it be done ?
Why three Icabodcrane? Surely the twins would have been well out of it anyway?
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It's an excellent question
We have to allow for entry to the apartment, the sedation of three children, the opening of the shutters and window, the lifting and removal of Madeleine ( I hate typing that ) and then the exit of the apartment, through the carpark and out across the road ... all in three minutes
Could it be done ?
Three minutes? Are you saying that Gerry and Jez only chatted for three minutes? Are you sure?
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Why three Icabodcrane? Surely the twins would have been well out of it anyway?
Well you'd think so wouldn't you John ?
I have always wondered why any abductor would sedate already sleeping children
But the McCanns think they did
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Well you'd think so wouldn't you John ?
I have always wondered why any abductor would sedate already sleeping children
But the McCanns think they did
seems they might have been sedated at teatime from reports that they were too tired to play that night before bed. Their usual routine was to join the other tapas kids at the play area for a while, but too tired that night.
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Three minutes? Are you saying that Gerry and Jez only chatted for three minutes? Are you sure?
That's what Gerry says in his statement ... 3 to 4 minutes
Given that they they were still in conversation when Jane saw the man carrying a child, I think a three minute window for the abductor is a fair allowance
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Well you'd think so wouldn't you John ?
I have always wondered why any abductor would sedate already sleeping children
But the McCanns think they did
They 'wondered 'whether they did - which is not the same as being sure they did. The tests carried out later indicated that the twins had not been sedated.
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That's what Gerry says in his statement ... 3 to 4 minutes
Given that they they were still in conversation when Jane saw the man carrying a child, I think a three minute window for the abductor is a fair allowance
Jez Wilkins said 3 to 5 minutes. If JT passed them only a few seconds before they went on their way - then that gives a time nearer 4/5 mins than 3.
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Well you'd think so wouldn't you John ?
I have always wondered why any abductor would sedate already sleeping children
But the McCanns think they did
Yes, naturally, they are speculating, just as the rest of us are, as they don't KNOW exactly what happened, that's the only thing they, and we, CAN do.
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Observing isn't speculating, though.
The twins were "abnormally" (the fact both were is in itself indicative) sleeping, as their mother was the first to notice : she, according to Mrs Payne, many times checked their breathing.
Why would one sedate sleeping children ? Icabodcrane is very right.
Where we come back to the old idea that these kids were given some mild sedation. It's not a crime, but the parents denied. Dead end.
The modus operandi would indicate how much time was needed. Not much if Mo Stache's hypothesis was the one. But it supposes some kind of violence, not really compatible with the state of Madeleine's bed.
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seems they might have been sedated at teatime from reports that they were too tired to play that night before bed. Their usual routine was to join the other tapas kids at the play area for a while, but too tired that night.
The other tapas children didn't go to the play area either, did they ? AFAIR they went from the Paraiso to the tennis courts then on to their apartments.
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seems they might have been sedated at teatime from reports that they were too tired to play that night before bed. Their usual routine was to join the other tapas kids at the play area for a while, but too tired that night.
Where do you get the idea that the twins were 'to tired' to play before bed ?
Kate just says they were all ready for bed and seemed content with their books, and that she decided they were probably past the stage of needing any more activity
The only other mention she makes of deciding not to take the children to the play area is this :
"She looked so pale and worn out, I went straight up to her and asked if she was all right. Had she been OK at the club when Ella left to go to the beach ? Yes, she sai, but now she was really tired and wanted me to pick her up, which I did. Ten minutes later, the five of us went back to our apartment. I was carrying Madeleine. Because she was so exhausted we skipped playtime that evening"
I can see no evidence that the twins were behaving in any way different than usual. There is no mention of them being tired that I can find