Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Title: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
During the McCanns attempt to have Amaral's book banned Ricardo Paiva gave evidence of a telephone call made by Kate, while Gerry was absent. He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.
Of course Gerry, in front of the world's press, denied that Kate had ever had such a dream or that something must have been lost in translation ( unlikely as Paiva spoke perfect English).
What are we to make of this episode ?
Did Kate keep the phonecall from Gerry and, if so, why ?
Text amended in red to accord with the newspaper article quoted. Admin
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 01:42:16 PM
I was amazed hearing Mr McCann denying as if he had Mrs McCann's dreams under control. Ricardo Paiva is a sworn inspector. What else ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 05, 2013, 01:44:12 PM
The only people who can answer this without resorting to idle speculation are the McCanns themselves. Do you want us to idly speculate again "Faithlilly"?
The short answer to that would be; yes!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on June 05, 2013, 01:46:37 PM
So Kate was going to tell him where she dumped the body? Why would she do that?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 05, 2013, 01:50:33 PM
Maybe Kate hadn't told Gerry about her dream? But why not start a new thread on Paiva, that could certainly be an interesting exercise in speculation.
ETA Also, was dream interpretation part of Paiva's general job description within the PJ, or was that just a hobby he spent his free time pursuing?
If you want to start a new thread on Paiva then feel free Mrs B.
Are you aware that Paiva didn't interpret the dream ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 05, 2013, 02:42:09 PM
Ah, too late, I see one thread has already turned into a thread about Paiva, & yes, Paiva DID try to interpret Kate's dream, he tried to interpret the meaning of the dream as a confession by Kate, which obviously it wasn't. So maybe he should have stuck to doing police work instead.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 02:44:28 PM
Once Paiva had given evidence Kate would have had ample time to tell Gerry that, yes, she had called Pavia about her dream and it is nonsensical to think that isn't what happened. That Gerry then denied that the dream had ever happened means that someone is being less than honest, the question is who ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 02:50:01 PM
How utterly desparate of the police to use a dream Kate had as a "turning point" in the hunt for evidence against the parents. Since when is dream interpretation an investigative tool in police work?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 02:50:54 PM
Ah, too late, I see one thread has already turned into a thread about Carana, & yes, Paiva DID try to interpret Kate's dream, he tried to interpret the meaning of the dream as a confession by Kate, which obviously it wasn't. So maybe he should have stuck to doing police work instead.
Kate is alleged to have said that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that the PJ should search for her there. No interpretation needed really, is there ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 02:52:16 PM
How utterly desparate of the police to use a dream Kate had as a "turning point" in the hunt for evidence against the parents. Since when is dream interpretation an investigative tool in police work?
You obviously don't know much about police investigations Mrs B.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 05, 2013, 02:55:30 PM
During the McCanns attempt to have Amaral's book banned Ricardo Paiva gave evidence of a telephone call made by Kate, while Gerry was absent, relating a dream she had had in which her daughters's body was buried on a hillside in PDL.
Of course Gerry, in front of the world's press, denied that Kate had ever had such a dream or that something must have been lost in translation ( unlikely as Paiva spoke perfect English).
What are we to make of this episode ?
Did Kate keep the phonecall from Gerry and, if so, why ?
You state, "Gerry, in front of the world's press, denied that Kate had ever had such a dream"
Then contradict yourself, by asking "Did Kate keep the phonecall from Gerry and, if so, why?"
If as you say Gerry lied, in front of the world's press,surely you have a cite for that, lie.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 02:57:09 PM
Once Paiva had given evidence Kate would have had ample time to tell Gerry that, yes, she had called Pavia about her dream and it is nonsensical to think that isn't what happened. That Gerry then denied that the dream had ever happened means that someone is being less than honest, the question is who ?
I have read that article twice and can't see any mentions of Gerry denying that the dream ever happened. Can you please provide the quote/statement, as I currently don't see it. Thank you.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 03:10:36 PM
You state, "Gerry, in front of the world's press, denied that Kate had ever had such a dream"
Then contradict yourself, by asking "Did Kate keep the phonecall from Gerry and, if so, why?"
If as you say Gerry lied, in front of the world's press,surely you have a cite for that, lie.
Don't be coy DCI I'm sure you saw Gerry inform the press outside the Lisbon courtroom that Kate had never had such a dream. It was just before he scurried off back to old Blighty and left Kate to tackle her court ordeal without him.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on June 05, 2013, 03:17:11 PM
Wouldn't you think that since The PJ found absolutely nothing, that this would have told them something?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 05, 2013, 03:24:04 PM
Don't be coy DCI I'm sure you saw Gerry inform the press outside the Lisbon courtroom that Kate had never had such a dream. It was just before he scurried off back to old Blighty and left Kate to tackle her court ordeal without him.
Actually, I didn't . Thats why I asked for a cite. Gerry scurried off, did he?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 03:31:23 PM
It was just before he scurried off back to old Blighty and left Kate to tackle her court ordeal without him. If I hadn't been there I wouldn't understand what this means.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 03:33:06 PM
I have read that article twice and can't see any mentions of Gerry denying that the dream ever happened. Can you please provide the quote/statement, as I currently don't see it. Thank you.
He then went on to contradict Dr Paiva’s evidence that Kate had seen Madeleine on a hillside in a dream. He said: “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.”
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: John on June 05, 2013, 03:35:00 PM
It seems that a lot of people have had dreams in the Madeleine disappearance case. Didn't they spend oodles of money searching some reservoir on the basis of yet another physic experience by some deluded lawyer. You couldn't make it up if you tried.
That said, it was to be expected that Kate would have dreams about the events as it was such an ordeal. She obviously felt that sharing it with a caring copper might have helped. Little did she know that the s..mbag would share it with the worlds media.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on June 05, 2013, 03:35:48 PM
It was just before he scurried off back to old Blighty and left Kate to tackle her court ordeal without him. If I hadn't been there I wouldn't understand what this means.
Apologies Anne. Blighty means the UK.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
It seems that a lot of people have had dreams in the Madeleine disappearance case. Didn't they spend oodles of money searching some reservoir on the basis of yet another physic experience by some deluded lawyer. You couldn't make it up if you tried.
That said, it was to be expected that Kate would have dreams about the events as it was such an ordeal. She obviously felt that sharing it with a caring copper might have helped. Little did she know that the s..mbag would share it with the worlds media.
Paiva didn't share it will the world's media. It was part of his evidence to the court.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 03:49:01 PM
He then went on to contradict Dr Paiva’s evidence that Kate had seen Madeleine on a hillside in a dream. He said: “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.”
"Kate had seen Madeleine on a hillside in a dream" she never said Madeleine is dead and buried on that hill. The polices interpretation was that Madeleine is buried there. Dreams can have several interpretations. Kate does not specify that Madeleine was dead or a ghost, she just said "seen Madeleine on a hillside".
Is everyone you dream of dead? And when you dream of 'alive' people are they all alive? It's a matter of interpretation, but the police decided to interpret it so that it gave their agenda more weight and the anti McCann's something else to nit pick about.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on June 05, 2013, 03:51:14 PM
I though Fiona was shipped in when Gerry made his hasty departure ?
From Kates book Gerry had to leave towards the end of the second day because of work commitments, and Fiona kindly ageed to fly out and join me. The first two days had highlighted the injustices heaped on Madeleine, provoking a lot of anger, exasperation and hurt, and Gerry was worried about leaving me to face more of the same on my own. I'm sure I'd have been fine, but it was good to have Fiona there all the same. Unquote ----------------- It sounds to me as if Fiona arrived as Gerry left, and she was there with Kate for the last day - and the journey home.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 03:51:38 PM
"She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there".
"She gave the impression that Madeleine was dead"
So - no mention by Kate of Madeleine being buried and only Paiva's assumption that Kate was referring to a dead Madeleine. And we have to have a whole thread devoted to impugning the McCanns once more based on these crumbs?
Yes, that is how I (and I am sure many others) also see it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 03:54:32 PM
"She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there".
"She gave the impression that Madeleine was dead"
So - no mention by Kate of Madeleine being buried and only Paiva's assumption that Kate was referring to a dead Madeleine. And we have to have a whole thread devoted to impugning the McCanns once more based on these crumbs?
You're right Martha there is no mention by Paiva of Madeleine being buried, that was what Gerry said in his press conference.
As to Paiva's 'assumption', he was privy to the whole conversation so is in a better position than us to understand what she was telling him.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 03:56:12 PM
Ah, too late, I see one thread has already turned into a thread about Carana, & yes, Paiva DID try to interpret Kate's dream, he tried to interpret the meaning of the dream as a confession by Kate, which obviously it wasn't. So maybe he should have stuck to doing police work instead.
Have you privileged information, Mrs B ? Or do you doubt inspector Paiva's aptitude concerning the Freudian concept of unconscious mind ?
I always found amazing that a lady trained in sciences and with faith in God seemed so attracted by magic thinking : isn't there a dream about a boat ? The SouthAfrican hair device, the rosaries around a toy.. Why not a premonitory dream ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 03:58:45 PM
"As to Paiva's 'assumption', he was privy to the whole conversation so is in a better position than us to understand what she was telling him." Paiva was hardly 'neutral' at that stage and was looking to find evidence of the parents wrong doing. By that stage Paiva was influenced by Amarals theory.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 04:04:03 PM
No apologies, Faithlilly, I hesitated but it could only mean that... I'll certainly never use the word to mean the UK !
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 04:09:36 PM
Bumping - questions still remain unanswered.
"Kate had seen Madeleine on a hillside in a dream" she never said Madeleine is dead and buried on that hill. The polices interpretation was that Madeleine is buried there. Dreams can have several interpretations. Kate does not specify that Madeleine was dead or a ghost, she just said "seen Madeleine on a hillside".
Is everyone you dream of dead? And when you dream of 'alive' people are they all alive? It's a matter of interpretation, but the police decided to interpret it so that it gave their agenda more weight and the anti McCann's something else to nit pick about.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 04:11:07 PM
Err, no - Paiva made it clear in caught that he "got the impression," not that Kate had outright told him Madeleine was dead. Please let's not resort to idle speculation, especially not when we have it from the horse's mouth!
I'm afraid it is you who is speculating. There was obviously something said by Kate that lead Paiva to suspect she thought Madeleine was dead. We are not privy to that information but any intelligent adult knows that things don't always have to be explicitly stated, their meaning is often clear by the surrounding context.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 04:19:44 PM
I don't understand why it matters that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was dead ... it was a dream and holding it up as some sort of evidence seems pretty desperate to me
Gerry's reaction and denial was strange though. He could perfectly reasonably have just said that there had been many nightmares since Madeleine was taken, and he was sorry that he hadn't been there to comfort Kate at the time
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 05, 2013, 04:21:31 PM
I don't understand why it matters that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was dead ... it was a dream and holding it up as some sort of evidence seems pretty desperate to me
Gerry's reaction and denial was strange though. He could perfectly reasonably have just said that there had been many nightmares since Madeleine was taken, and he was sorry that he hadn't been there to comfort Kate at the time
agree, seems to be such an overreaction over something which is, well, much ado about nothing
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 04:22:49 PM
I never made any claim on this thread and I am not the OP, all I did was try help you out with a link.Simples!!
Sorry yes, you not the OP poster BUT you do share the exact same view/claims as Faithlilly does else you would not have contributed to the conversation in her favour. That still doesn't give you the right to be rude and adjust anyone's post by striking them through.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 05, 2013, 04:27:56 PM
Sorry yes, you not the OP poster BUT you do share the exact same view/claims as Faithlilly does else you would not have contributed to the conversation in her favour. That still doesn't give you the right to be rude and adjust anyone's post by striking them through.
Yes too right, I was not the Op AND I never made any claim. Lame response and backtracking, and how on earth my initial or other posts are in the OPs favour were in their favour is beyond me, never mind
I didnt adjust your post, I struck it through as it had nothing whatsoever to do with me and my post, next time I promise just to TELL you directly
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 04:29:55 PM
His reaction was perfectly understandable considering he was commenting after hearing Paiva's bullshit about the dream in court.
Well I don't find it understandable
Gerry insisting that Kate never had the dream sounded unessecarily defensive ... as if there would be something wrong about Kate dreaming that Madeleine was dead
There is nothing significant, or questionable in any way I can see, in Kate having such a nightmare, given the circumstances
I don't understand Gerry's determination to deny she did
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 04:30:16 PM
I don't understand why it matters that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was dead ... it was a dream and holding it up as some sort of evidence seems pretty desperate to me
Gerry's reaction and denial was strange though. He could perfectly reasonably have just said that there had been many nightmares since Madeleine was taken, and he was sorry that he hadn't been there to comfort Kate at the time
Sure. But Mr McCann wasn't expecting this dream. He had the media in front of him and likely tried to avoid the worst, i.e something that could hamper his agenda, as the death element in Mr Amaral's book hampered, according to him, the search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 04:34:42 PM
Yes too right, I was not the Op AND I never made any claim. Lame response and backtracking, and how on earth my initial or other posts are in the OPs favour were in their favour is beyond me, never mind
I didnt adjust your post, I struck it through as it had nothing whatsoever to do with me and my post, next time I promise just to TELL you directly
Why did you reply to it if that be the case?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 05, 2013, 04:37:35 PM
I normally reply to people who address me, especially if the response is *off*, I offered a link, to your request to someone else,you then addressed me at 3.49 quoting my link, after which I responded and struck through your stuff from that post, leave it now pls unless you need the last word, but thats mine here
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 05, 2013, 04:41:09 PM
I normally reply to people who address me, especially if the response is *off*, just leave it now pls unless you need the last word, but thats mine here
I never asked you for a reply, you volunteered a reply which contributed to the discussion on the thread. When I replied to your post, you didn't like my reply and striked my post through. I addressed you AFTER the strike through occurred. I think it is plain to see who did what on the thread.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 04:42:02 PM
Magalhães e Menezes relates clearly the dogs' alerts to the statute of arguido. No mention of any dream. And, to go further on the topic of the irrational, the PJ wasn't responsible for the contribution of the missing persons hunter, who was nevertheless treated with civility.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
I don't understand why you don't find it understandable. This dream seemed to be THE determining factor in the PJ deciding that the McCanns were guilty according to Paiva and yet you don't think it in any way significant that having just heard this in court that Gerry would be moved to comment on it? Why not? Why are you not MORE concerned by the fact that the PJ's strategy to build a case against the McCanns appears to have been built on the back of this dream?
I don't think the dream is significant in any evidential way ... because Kate dreamed that Madeleine was dead has no bearing at all on whether she actually was or not
If Gerry felt compelled to comment then he might have stressed that point, rather than lend weight to the suggestion that Kate's dream was signicant by strenuously denying it had ever happened
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: ferryman on June 05, 2013, 04:59:54 PM
Magalhães e Menezes relates clearly the dogs' alerts to the statute of arguido. No mention of any dream. And, to go further on the topic of the irrational, the PJ wasn't responsible for the contribution of the missing persons hunter, who was nevertheless treated with civility.
Take away the dog alerts (which was nothing!) and there was, well, nothing ...
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 05, 2013, 05:00:36 PM
I don't think the dream is significant in any evidential way ... because Kate dreamed that Madeleine was dead has no bearing at all on whether she actually was or not
If Gerry felt compelled to comment then he might have stressed that point, rather than lend weight to the suggestion that Kate's dream was signicant by strenuously denying it had ever happened
Kate didn't have a dream, Madeleine was dead. Or is Paiva lying?
"She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there".
"She gave the impression that Madeleine was dead"
So - no mention by Kate of Madeleine being buried and only Paiva's assumption that Kate was referring to a dead Madeleine. And we have to have a whole thread devoted to impugning the McCanns once more based on these crumbs?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 05:09:15 PM
I don't think the dream is significant in any evidential way ... because Kate dreamed that Madeleine was dead has no bearing at all on whether she actually was or not
If Gerry felt compelled to comment then he might have stressed that point, rather than lend weight to the suggestion that Kate's dream was signicant by strenuously denying it had ever happened
I have to agree icabod. If Gerry had said Kate had had dreams like this before and, although distressing, were to be expected, it would have garnered public sympathy. It is his denial in the face of overwhelming evidence that raises questions.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 05, 2013, 05:13:59 PM
It seems that a lot of people have had dreams in the Madeleine disappearance case. Didn't they spend oodles of money searching some reservoir on the basis of yet another physic experience by some deluded lawyer. You couldn't make it up if you tried.
That said, it was to be expected that Kate would have dreams about the events as it was such an ordeal. She obviously felt that sharing it with a caring copper might have helped. Little did she know that the s..mbag would share it with the worlds media.
IIRC that lawyer financed the dam searches himself after a tip off from the underworld, whether that was the mob or the spirit world, not sure
With regard to Gerald McCann, he constantly insisted in giving the undersigned letters and emails that he was receiving, mostly from psychics and mediums, whom he had selected and which mainly contained information without much credibility about the possible whereabouts of Madeleine and her presumed abductor.
More recently, and even before Kate's interrogation, during a telephone call between Gerald McCann and the undersigned, he made a reference regarding the investigation, that he was certain that the police did not have any proof that could incriminate them with regard to the death of Madeleine McCann and he said that the police were wasting their time in directing the investigation around the parents.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 05, 2013, 05:19:19 PM
Why was Paiva and Almeida, both taken off the case, in September 2007, before Amaral was?.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 05:20:21 PM
"Denial in the face of overwhelming evidence" - of what?! The idiot here is Paiva but you are seeking to impugn Gerry McCann on the basis of absolutely nothing - why? What is wrong with you?
Denial that his wife had called Paiva about a dream. Do keep up.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 05:22:07 PM
I don't understand why it matters that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was dead ... it was a dream and holding it up as some sort of evidence seems pretty desperate to me
Gerry's reaction and denial was strange though. He could perfectly reasonably have just said that there had been many nightmares since Madeleine was taken, and he was sorry that he hadn't been there to comfort Kate at the time
The 'dream' was bizarrely (IMO) being used as 'evidence' to suggest that Kate knew that Madeleine was dead and knew where her body was. Therefore Gerry was quite right to point out that Kate did not dream anything like what was being suggested - as part of a court case.
He said: “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.” unquote
In the circumstances - I think he was quite right to make that clarification.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 05:37:54 PM
I don't think the dream is significant in any evidential way ... because Kate dreamed that Madeleine was dead has no bearing at all on whether she actually was or not
If Gerry felt compelled to comment then he might have stressed that point, rather than lend weight to the suggestion that Kate's dream was signicant by strenuously denying it had ever happened
Mr McCann is certainly less subtle than you, Icabodcrane !
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 05:42:34 PM
The 'dream' was bizarrely (IMO) being used as 'evidence' to suggest that Kate knew that Madeleine was dead and knew where her body was. Therefore Gerry was quite right to point out that Kate did not dream anything like what was being suggested - as part of a court case.
He said: “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.” unquote
In the circumstances - I think he was quite right to make that clarification.
Well, I feel all that was necessary was for Gerry to ridicule the fact that the Portuguese investigation's change of direction was based on a 'dream' ( because it was worthy of ridicule )
By denying the dream occured at all, or insisting that it had been misinterpreted, Gerry looked rattled and gave the appearance he was floundering for excuses ( when, in truth, Kate's dream required no excuse ... so what if she dreamt Madeleine was dead, afterall )
Just to mention though, what I do find a bit bizarre is that Kate would be ringing a Portuguese policeman to tell him about her dreams in the first place
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 05:45:52 PM
The 'dream' was bizarrely (IMO) being used as 'evidence' to suggest that Kate knew that Madeleine was dead and knew where her body was. Therefore Gerry was quite right to point out that Kate did not dream anything like what was being suggested - as part of a court case.
He said: “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.” unquote
In the circumstances - I think he was quite right to make that clarification.
Which words exactly ? The words Inspector Paiva used for the court or the words Mrs McCann used when speaking to him on the phone ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 05:49:25 PM
Well, I feel all that was necessary was for Gerry to ridicule the fact that the Portuguese investigation's change of direction was based on a 'dream' ( because it was worthy of ridicule )
By denying the dream occured at all, or insisting that it had been misinterpreted, Gerry looked rattled and gave the appearance he was floundering for excuses ( when, in truth, Kate's dream required no excuse ... so what if she dreamt Madeleine was dead, afterall )
Just to mention though, what I do find a bit bizarre is that Kate would be ringing a Portuguese policeman to tell him about her dreams in the first place
I believe she had family and friends around her who, you would imagine, would be more suitable confidants.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 05:52:43 PM
Just to mention though, what I do find a bit bizarre is that Kate would be ringing a Portuguese policeman to tell him about her dreams in the first place
Ricardo Paiva was a sort of liaison officer because he was fluent in English. It seems some friendship built up between him and Mr and Mrs McCann.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 06:03:01 PM
Here is quite an interesting extract from Kate's book
It refers to Monday July 23rd ( Gerry had flown to Washington the day before )
"That evening I phoned Ricardo Paiva to ask for help with a couple of letters I needed to have translated. He sounded strange, distant; certainly not his usual self. He mentioned the forthcoming groundsearch, adding that Encarnacao wanted to talk to us before it began. I distinctly remember him saying, 'Our investigation will be changing direction.' Danie Krugel's report had given them a bit of a jolt, he told me"
That's it, Kate mentions no other calls to Paiva, and makes no mention at all about any dream
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 06:11:53 PM
Thank you. I had mentioned it already once before and assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that you had chosen to ignore me.
ETA - I withdraw the thanks as I see you have facetiously changed the wording to say that Kate dreamt she saw Madeleine's body on a hillside when she said nothing of the sort.
Martha if only you put half as much effort into finding Madeleine as you do into correcting posts she my well have been recovered by now.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 05, 2013, 06:21:11 PM
Here is quite an interesting extract from Kate's book
It refers to Monday July 23rd ( Gerry had flown to Washington the day before )
"That evening I phoned Ricardo Paiva to ask for help with a couple of letters I needed to have translated. He sounded strange, distant; certainly not his usual self. He mentioned the forthcoming groundsearch, adding that Encarnacao wanted to talk to us before it began. I distinctly remember him saying, 'Our investigation will be changing direction.' Danie Krugel's report had given them a bit of a jolt, he told me"
That's it, Kate mentions no other calls to Paiva, and makes no mention at all about any dream
Ommission doesnt mean it never happened, likewise, Paiva cant be lying about said phone call, she obviously called hm mentioning a dream....thats all and Gerry acted like a defensive rooster about it, because, IMO Kate had inserted the dreaded possibly dead theme into it, just like he got so incensed here
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 06:28:20 PM
It's interesting, too, that Kate wrote her book after the hearing in Lison, and after Paiva made the telephone call about the dream public ( which Gerry later denied )
Yet this is all Kate has to say about it :
"A little while later, up popped Ricardo Paiva, who surprised me by remaining calm, even if he did contradict himself during his testimony. Paiva said he believed Goncalo Amaral's assertion that Madeleine was dead and that Gerry and I had staged a kidnap"
She makes no mention of the fact that he testified about the call she had made to him about her dream ... she does not say he was lying, or even that he had misinterpreted what she had said ... no mention at all
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
from Kate's book
Danie Krugel's report had given them a bit of a jolt, he told me" How do you understand this, Icabodcrane ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 06:30:09 PM
What an odd thing to say. I rarely ask people to correct posts. Are you attempting to deflect from your patent dishonesty again?
If Kate McCann had told Paiva that she had had a dream about Madeleine's body on a hill why did Paiva only have "the impression" that Kate was referring to Madeleine as dead why was he not certain that that is what she meant and why did he not use the word's "Madeleine's body" to describe what Kate had said to him?
Perhaps you could correct your OP again to reflect the facts, rather than your rather biased assumption.
Tell me Martha did Paiva give his evidence to court in Portuguese ? Could something have been lost in translation ? We are all aware of how the BBC royally mangled one of Amaral's comments.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 05, 2013, 06:31:10 PM
It's interesting, too, that Kate wrote her book after the hearing in Lison, and after Paiva made the telephone call about the dream public ( which Gerry later denied )
Yet this is all Kate has to say about it :
"A little while later, up popped Ricardo Paiva, who surprised me by remaining calm, even if he did contradict himself during his testimony. Paiva said he believed Goncalo Amaral's assertion that Madeleine was dead and that Gerry and I had staged a kidnap"
She makes no mention of the fact that he testified about the call she had made to him about her dream ... she does not say he was lying, or even that he had misinterpreted what she had said ... no mention at all
her book is a very cleverly contrived and deceptive account of events IMHO 8((()*/
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
Maybe that's because he didn't lie? He only said that Kate told him she had dreamt she had seen Madeleine on a hill, remember?
She does however say that he contradicts himself as well - perhaps this is a polite, non-libellous way of suggesting he wasn't entirely truthful in court...? >@@(*&)
In what way would it be libellous if it's the truth ? As to Kate missing an opportunity to insult, have you read her book ? You know the one in which she calls Paiva a 'f**king t*sser' ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 06:50:14 PM
In what way would it be libellous if it's the truth ? As to Kate missing an opportunity to insult, have you read her book ? You know the one in which she calls Paiva a 'f**king t*sser' ?
KM has form in blaming and insulting people for failing to search, or search properly, for daring to go to bed after searchng all night and not being there at 6am,(when she finally decided to go out, and spend A WHOLE HOUR looking for her baby,) and find her child when they tried to do so, and in casting aspersions aganst innocent people and govts and countries, gosh, she even lambasted her priest cos he had a smiley face and her neighbours and many others!!! Along the line, and not forgetting she eants a million quid off mr amaral and wanting him to be miserable and live in fear but she forgives the abductor
Nice woman
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 05, 2013, 07:14:13 PM
Calling someone a liar could lead to an accusation of libel if the person accused of lying disputes the accusation, do you not agree? Calling someone a f**cking tosser is not libellous, it's fair comment. ?{)(**
Perhaps Kate did not take the opportunity, in her book, to point out that Paiva was, at least 'mistaken' about the phonecall she made to him, because he was, in fact, telling the truth ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: gilet on June 05, 2013, 09:14:04 PM
During the McCanns attempt to have Amaral's book banned Ricardo Paiva gave evidence of a telephone call made by Kate, while Gerry was absent, relating a dream she had had in which her daughters's body was on a hillside in PDL.
Of course Gerry, in front of the world's press, denied that Kate had ever had such a dream or that something must have been lost in translation ( unlikely as Paiva spoke perfect English).
What are we to make of this episode ?
Did Kate keep the phonecall from Gerry and, if so, why ?
Guessing again.
No possible relevance to the abduction as dreams don't count as evidence, not knowing what your wife dreamt is not a crime and once again all that is being asked for are guesses based on no knowledge, facts or anything else with any validity.
Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 09:17:49 PM
If someone calls me a f**king tosser then it s clear that that is their opinion - it may be a fair assessment of my behaviour or character or it may not, however It is not libellous.
I wasn't arguing whether this insult was libellous or not. Only asking if you would find it fair.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 05, 2013, 10:43:03 PM
No possible relevance to the abduction as dreams don't count as evidence, not knowing what your wife dreamt is not a crime and once again all that is being asked for are guesses based on no knowledge, facts or anything else with any validity.
Why am I not surprised?
Why am I not surprised you said why am I not surprised 8)-)))
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 05, 2013, 11:06:43 PM
He was legally obliged to answer, honestly, any questions put to him
He was not obliged to divulge confidences. Just think what would happen if every victim thought that anything they told a police liaison officer could end up being made public?
The truth however was that Paiva was simply an Amaral mole sent in to sniff! There are other cases hosted on this forum where the exact same thing happened.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 12:01:51 AM
He was not obliged to divulge confidences. Just think what would happen if every victim thought that anything they told a police liaison officer could end up being made public?
The truth however was that Paiva was simply an Amaral mole sent in to sniff!
Do you think Paiva was telling the truth about the phone call Kate made to tell him about her dream ?
Or do you believe Gerry when he says no such phone call took place ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: John on June 06, 2013, 12:06:44 AM
The dream appears to exist as it has been corroborated by Kate herself.
Don't know about the phone call though. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 12:07:56 AM
He was not obliged to divulge confidences. Just think what would happen if every victim thought that anything they told a police liaison officer could end up being made public?
The truth however was that Paiva was simply an Amaral mole sent in to sniff! There are other cases hosted on this forum where the exact same thing happened.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Hooray, someone else has joined the dots.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 12:09:26 AM
The dream appears to exist as it has been corroborated by Kate herself.
Don't know about the phone call though. >@@(*&)
When was the dream corroborated by Kate ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 06, 2013, 12:50:26 AM
Instead of calling upon principles, often helpless when a singular situation occurs, let's think : Ricardo Paiva was faced with a dilemma : on one side he had to answer as a police officer in defence of his boss who was sued for assuming conclusions his whole team agreed with ; on the other side, in the name of his special relationship with Mrs McCann, he would conceal a dream that revealed a certain state of mind the calling of the hair device man corroborated.
This is a real "case of conscience" and it is worthwhile, imo, to meditate about it. There's no simple answer.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 01:08:36 AM
Instead of calling upon principles, often helpless when a singular situation occurs, let's think : Ricardo Paiva was faced with a dilemma : on one side he had to answer as a police officer in defence of his boss who was sued for assuming conclusions his whole team agreed with ; on the other side, in the name of his special relationship with Mrs McCann, he would conceal a dream that revealed a certain state of mind the calling of the hair device man corroborated.
This is a real "case of conscience" and it is worthwhile, imo, to meditate about it. There's no simple answer.
oh I think it was more than just a choice between 'defending' his boss ( who's conclusion he agreed with ) and revealing something told to him 'confidentially' by Kate McCann
He is a police officer ... there is no 'confidentiality' between him and the main protagonists in a criminal investigation
I would guess that the telephone conversation about Kate's 'dream' was logged in police files ( quite properly ) and that the subsequent actions related to it are all recorded there too
Indeed, Kate says, in her book, that Paiva, accompanied by Jose de Frieitas, came to see her the next day ( following her phone call to him the night before, and whilst Gerry was still in Washington ) to discuss the anticipated search
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Chinagirl on June 06, 2013, 02:00:41 AM
Icabodcrane:
oh I think it was more than just a choice between 'defending' his boss ( who's conclusion he agreed with ) and revealing something told to him 'confidentially' by Kate McCann
He is a police officer ... there is no 'confidentiality' between him and the main protagonists in a criminal investigation
I would guess that the telephone conversation about Kate's 'dream' was logged in police files ( quite properly ) and that the subsequent actions related to it are all recorded there too _________________________
Kate & Gerry McCann were no longer "protagonists in a criminal investigation" at the time Paiva publicly revealed details of Kate's dream at the injunction hearing.
Rather than guessing that details of the alleged telephone conversation are in the files, perhaps you would find the relevant entry in the files and post it here.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: John on June 06, 2013, 02:13:27 AM
Sorry Icabodcrane, you're correct of course, Kate never mentioned the specifics of that dream in her book. 8((()*/
Thanks for confirming John, I thought you might have read it somewhere else ... the only reference I go by largely is Kate's book ( and a bit of googling )
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 08:37:10 AM
Instead of calling upon principles, often helpless when a singular situation occurs, let's think : Ricardo Paiva was faced with a dilemma : on one side he had to answer as a police officer in defence of his boss who was sued for assuming conclusions his whole team agreed with ; on the other side, in the name of his special relationship with Mrs McCann, he would conceal a dream that revealed a certain state of mind the calling of the hair device man corroborated.
This is a real "case of conscience" and it is worthwhile, imo, to meditate about it. There's no simple answer.
Paiva did not have to appear in court to defend his Boss who was involved in a commercial enterprise.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 08:49:54 AM
Have you privileged information, Mrs B ? Or do you doubt inspector Paiva's aptitude concerning the Freudian concept of unconscious mind ?
I always found amazing that a lady trained in sciences and with faith in God seemed so attracted by magic thinking : isn't there a dream about a boat ? The SouthAfrican hair device, the rosaries around a toy.. Why not a premonitory dream ?
No, simple facts do for me, Madeleine was not found on any hillside i.e. as in Kate's dream. I.e. Kate's dream was not a confession to having left Madeleine dead on a hillside. It was Paiva's ASSUMPTION that it was some sort of confession, he INTERPRETED her dream as such. Dream interpretation is not an acceptable investigative method, anywhere, afaik.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 08:54:57 AM
Paiva did not have to appear in court to defend his Boss who was involved in a commercial enterprise.
No, he did not. Paiva was a willing witness for his previous boss in a civil suit. Did Amaral not try to get one of the UK family liaison officers to be a witness for him too? Which was declined?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 09:00:12 AM
No, he did not. Paiva was a willing witness for his previous boss in a civil suit. Did Amaral not try to get one of the UK family liaison officers to be a witness for him too? Which was declined?
Yes. Amaral tried to call a British Policeman of Portuguese birth. He appears to know nothing about The Official Secrets Act.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 10:40:23 AM
Madeleine could just as well have been left on the hillside alive as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 12:12:08 PM
A police officer who is tasked with liaison duties should not be disclosing private confidences under any circumstances. End off!!
Sorry but that's a load of nonsense. The call had already lead to a search of the hillside intimated by Kate.
Are you really suggesting that anything incriminating said to a FLO by the family of a missing child should be kept from the investigation ? That is simply ridiculous.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 12:22:58 PM
Madeleine could just as well have been left on the hillside alive as far as I can see.
There was obviously something relayed in the phone call that suggested to Pavia that Kate thought Madeleine was no longer alive. She was not talking about a live child, that was clear to Paiva and to second guess what Kate said that night is simply clutching at straws.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:25:05 PM
Sorry but that's a load of nonsense. The call had already lead to a search of the hillside intimated by Kate.
Are you really suggesting that anything incriminating said to a FLO by the family of a missing child should be kept from the investigation ? That is simply ridiculous.
It wasn't a criminal investigation, it was a civil suit to protect a commercial venture by Amaral. Utterly reprehensible behavior by an officer of the law.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 12:31:20 PM
It wasn't a criminal investigation, it was a civil suit to protect a commercial venture by Amaral. Utterly reprehensible behavior by an officer of the law.
It was part of the investigation.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 12:34:22 PM
LOL, and yet you have told us yourself that Kate talked of her daughter's body to Paiva - is that not guesswork too?
If Paiva had, from Kate, the impression that Madeleine was dead, yes, we are talking about a body.
I'm sorry but you can second guess what Kate told Paiva until the cows come home, it won't, however, change the fact that Paiva was the only one privy to that call and he believes Kate was talking about a body.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 12:43:44 PM
Incorrect - you put words into Kate / Paiva's mouth. He NEVER said that she had talked to him about a body but this is the word you have chosen to use in your OP. Why?
If Kate had talked about a dead Madeleine, she was talking about a body.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 12:44:25 PM
Quote
YOU have stated (guessed) that Kate McCann told Paiva she had dreamt about Madeleine's body on a hillside - please provide evidence that she used the word body.
Dangerous thing to say in Portugal.
Unlike in England, there is no immunity from the laws of libel in respect of statements made in court ...
*Amended to get the right quote
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 12:45:25 PM
YOU have stated (guessed) that Kate McCann told Paiva she had dreamt about Madeleine's body on a hillside - please provide evidence that she used the word body.
Paiva used the word dead.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on June 06, 2013, 01:17:51 PM
So what? It was his IMPRESSION or ASSUMPTION that she was referring to a dead body but Kate NEVER told him that so why have you said she did in your OP?
Yes, and we're back at dream interpretation as means to conducting police investigations.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 03:30:52 PM
I wonder if Eddie and Keela had a dream?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 03:32:56 PM
So what? It was his IMPRESSION or ASSUMPTION that she was referring to a dead body but Kate NEVER told him that so why have you said she did in your OP?
How do you know what Kate told him ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: registrar on June 06, 2013, 06:21:57 PM
Yep always involving sausages - oops, how silly of me - in their case salmon of course.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:27:33 PM
Paiva doesn't say Kate told him Madeleine was dead. He admits that it's his OWN interpretation. If someone gives you "an impression", it doesn't mean THEY actually give you anything, but that YOU interpret it as such.
"Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying," he said. "She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
"She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us."
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 06:30:13 PM
Because Paiva tells us ""She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there".
Now, how do YOU know she said she dreamt about Madeleine's body?
Because Kate said something, that we are not privy to, that told him that she did not think they would find Madeleine alive. Why is that so hard for you to understand ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 06:35:31 PM
Is it really so hard for you to stick to the known facts for once, Paiva does NOT say that, he already told you what Kate said. In a court of law (albeit a civil appeal court), under oath. There is no need for you to invent additional fantasies to it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:05:42 PM
Quote
Faithlilly During the McCanns attempt to have Amaral's book banned Ricardo Paiva gave evidence of a telephone call made by Kate, while Gerry was absent, relating a dream she had had in which her daughters's body was on a hillside in PDL.
so that statement is incorrect, but is allowed to remain on this forum?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 07:15:22 PM
If Paiva had misinterpreted, or even just misunderstood what Kate had told him ( about her dream ) , why didn't she take the opportunity to point that out in her book ?
It was something of such significance to the Portuguese police that the direction of the investigation changed as a consequence of it ... and much was made of it at the hearing in Lisbon
Yet Kate did not even give it a cursory mention in her book
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 07:18:46 PM
How would Kate mentioning Paiva's attempts at dream interpretation in her book have changed the course the investigation took years earlier? Bit late, don't you think? What would be the point?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
If Paiva had misinterpreted, or even just misunderstood what Kate had told him ( about her dream ) , why didn't she take the opportunity to point that out in her book ?
It was something of such significance to the Portuguese police that the direction of the investigation changed as a consequence of it ... and much was made of it at the hearing in Lisbon
Yet Kate did not even give it a cursory mention in her book
maybe you answered that when you said
Quote
icabodcrane I don't understand why it matters that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was dead ... it was a dream and holding it up as some sort of evidence seems pretty desperate to me
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 07:26:18 PM
How would Kate mentioning Paiva's attempts at dream interpretation in her book have changed the course the investigation took years earlier? Bit late, don't you think? What would be the point?
Kate's book was presented as her version of the truth, and she had the opportunity to point out that Paiva had misrepresented what she had told him about her dream ( if that was the case )
It was an important factor in the investigation, and Gerry reacted strongly to it outside the court in Lisbon
I believe it is possible that Kate did not point any error on Paiva's part, because he had, in fact, told the truth and she had given the impression she thought Madeleine was dead
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:28:02 PM
Gerry reacted strongly outside the court because it was a LIE
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 07:31:03 PM
Kate's book was presented as her version of the truth, and she had the opportunity to point out that Paiva had misrepresented what she had told him about her dream ( if that was the case )
It was an important factor in the investigation, and Gerry reacted strongly to it outside the court in Lisbon
I believe it is possible that Kate did not point any error on Paiva's part, because he had, in fact, told the truth and she had given the impression she thought Madeleine was dead
most plausible scenario
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 07:31:33 PM
Kate's book was presented as her version of the truth, and she had the opportunity to point out that Paiva had misrepresented what she had told him about her dream ( if that was the case )
It was an important factor in the investigation, and Gerry reacted strongly to it outside the court in Lisbon
I believe it is possible that Kate did not point any error on Paiva's part, because he had, in fact, told the truth and she had given the impression she thought Madeleine was dead
And I believe that it's more probable that Kate McCann doesn't give a monkey's about what Paiva thought or not as the AG had already said his piece. That's the IMPRESSION I get, but then, I give as much relevance to dream interpretation as I do to reversed speech analysis.
ETA And btw, one fact remains, Paiva did NOT say that Kate McCann talked about a "body" - so I guess we know who's been caught out lying again.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 07:33:02 PM
It was an important factor in the investigation,
Why is a dream important in any criminal investigation?
Indeed, why would it matter if Kate did dream about Madeleine being murdered?
I mean, I don't have any statistics, but I would be willing to lay a sizeable bet that absolutely anyone in Kate's position might (potentially) have all sorts of weird and (not necessarily very wonderful) dreams of all sorts, none of the slightest relevance to competent investigators of crime.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:34:08 PM
So why didn't Kate support that protestation Gerry made outside the court in her book then ?
why - it only seems important to a very few unimportant people on here.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:35:58 PM
don't forget what you said
Quote
icabodcrane I don't understand why it matters that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was dead ... it was a dream and holding it up as some sort of evidence seems pretty desperate to me
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 07:37:09 PM
So why didn't Kate support that protestation Gerry made outside the court in her book then ?
Because it was true imo, safest conclusion to make, gerry going off like a rooster on speed only proves they were defensive about something they didnt like, indeed, why couldnt kate speak for herself! She did plenty a time over the three days, and yes, why was a mere dream important enough for gerry to go to such lengths
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:38:36 PM
Because it was true imo, safest conclusion to make, gerry going off like a rooster on speed only proves they were defensive about something they didnt like, indeed, why couldnt kate speak for herself! She did plenty a time over the three days
yes Gerry was defensive of an incorrect impression stated as some sort of evidence in a court case.
nothing strange about that at all
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 07:39:43 PM
Because it was true imo, safest conclusion to make, gerry going off like a rooster on speed only proves they were defensive about something they didnt like, indeed, why couldnt kate speak for herself! She did plenty a time over the three days
...defensive about something they didnt like,...
Kate being maligned and traduced on the basis of inconsequential tittle-tattle.
How very dare them ...
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:43:24 PM
thankyou admin for editing the OP to remove the lie.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 07:48:59 PM
Kate being maligned and traduced on the basis of inconsequential tittle-tattle.
How very dare them ...
So paiva traduced her? Oh ok then, he made it all up
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
Considering the sheer AMOUNT of lies that were, and still is, being spread around about the McCann, who on earth expects them to go out & publicly EXPLAIN & DENY every single piece of rubbish that some people invent in their own little sordid minds? They wouldn't have time to do ANYTHING else 24/7.
This dream interpretation BS, i.e. "Paiva said...." is just another example of people "inventing" stuff.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:51:36 PM
Considering the sheer AMOUNT of lies that were, and still is, being spread around about the McCann, who on earth expects them to go out & publicly EXPLAIN & DENY every single piece of rubbish that some people invent in their own little sordid minds? They wouldn't have time to do ANYTHING else 24/7.
This dream interpretation BS, i.e. "Paiva said...." is just another example of people "inventing" stuff.
Minor quibble: invented or not, it was irrelevant to the investigation and ought, never, to have surfaced.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 07:53:01 PM
Why is a dream important in any criminal investigation?
Indeed, why would it matter if Kate did dream about Madeleine being murdered?
I mean, I don't have any statistics, but I would be willing to lay a sizeable bet that absolutely anyone in Kate's position might (potentially) have all sorts of weird and (not necessarily very wonderful) dreams of all sorts, none of the slightest relevance to competent investigators of crime.
I don't know WHY it was important to the investigation, but it WAS
I agree with you that a 'dream' influencing any criminal investigation is quite absurd ... but that is what happened in this case apparently
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:54:14 PM
he got a wrong impression and drew a wrong conclusion.
it happens all the time
i dont see why such a big deal is being made of it, its a so what skakesperean scenario IMO much ado about nothng and the lady protesteth too much in this case though was the hubby
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:57:02 PM
i dont see why such a big deal is being made of it, its a so what skakesperean scenario IMO much ado about nothng and the lady protesteth too much in this case though was the hubby
it seems important enough for faith to start a thread about it with a misleading OP
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 07:58:03 PM
was it important to the investigation or just amarals court case?
Paiva said the conversation he had with Kate about her dream lead to the investigation changing direction
I take that to mean, up until that point they had been looking for a 'living' child, and there was something about the way Kate spoke that lead him to believe Madeleine might, in fact, be dead
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 07:58:56 PM
Paiva said the conversation he had with Kate about her dream lead to the investigation changing direction
I take that to mean, up until that point they had been looking for a 'living' child, and there was something about the way Kate spoke that lead him to believe Madeleine might, in fact, be dead
shows what a complete idiot he is then doesn't it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 07:59:46 PM
was it important to the investigation or just amarals court case?
Amaral's case, the investigation was well & truly shelved by then. Amaral called in his mate Paiva to testify & tell the world that Amaral wasn't the only one who was good at invented stories. Paiva wasn't bad at it either. Wonder if Amaral is going to call him the next time (if there is one)? Or Tavares de Almeida? Now, THAT would be interesting....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 08:00:04 PM
a lot of people thought they were so important to the case didn't they?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 08:00:16 PM
shows what a complete idiot he is then doesn't it.
Well we weren't privvy to the conversation about the dream, so we don't know
All we know is that Kate has never spoken about it since
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2013, 08:02:14 PM
(Icabodcrane) I don't know WHY it was important to the investigation, but it WAS
It wouldn't have been important to competent investigators.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 08:02:53 PM
Imagine the morning Police briefing.
Right I had a phone call from Kate last night - she had a dream that didn't mention death but from now on we are not looking for a living child but a dead child - call for the dogs.
Sounds pretty accurate doesn't it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 08:03:48 PM
it seems important enough for faith to start a thread about it with a misleading OP
not necessarily misleading as the news article now amended into the op is not the same as other articles, where it is reported Kate did imply or actually say a body was lying on a hill in her dream, the op was started IMO to ask why there was such a discrepancy with gerry having to publically deny kate had such a dream, THAT was the much ado about nothing
Edited
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 08:06:50 PM
Right I had a phone call from Kate last night - she had a dream that didn't mention death but from now on we are not looking for a living child but a dead child - call for the dogs.
Sounds pretty accurate doesn't it.
Yes, & mind boggling....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 08:09:38 PM
not necessarily misleading as the news article now amended into the op is not the same as other articles, where it is reported Kate did imply a body was lying on a hill in her dream, the op was started IMO to ask why there was such a discrepancy with gerry having to publically deny kate had such a dream, THAT was the much ado about nothing
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
how long do you want to go round in circles for - the idiot drew an impression in the second sentence from something that is not in the first sentence.
you carry on red - to me it is quite understandable why Gerry would be so annoyed at the lie.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 08:18:08 PM
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
how long do you want to go round in circles for - the idiot drew an impression in the second sentence from something that is not in the first sentence.
you carry on red - to me it is quite understandable why Gerry would be so annoyed at the lie.
Ah, where is the lie though? Dont worry, not bothered sooner I put Gerrys aggressive outbursts and struts out of my mind quicker it is for me to feel better
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 08:22:15 PM
Ah, where is the lie though? Dont worry, not bothered sooner I put Gerrys aggressive outbursts and struts out of my mind quicker it is for me to feel better
yes I think after 14 pages if you don't know it would be best for you to put it out of your mind
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 08:34:18 PM
Yes, how dare Gerry be angry after hearing in court that the PJ decided the McCanns were guilty based on Kate's dream FGS.
Gerry didn't express anger at the fact that Kate's dream had influenced the investigation though ... he expressed anger that her dream has been misinterpreted
Thinking about it though, maybe he was angry because he found out for the first time that while he was in Washington Katemade a late evening call to Paiva ( she didn't put the twins to bed until 9.15pm that night ) and she says herself in the book that it was in the 'evening' that she rang Paiva ( to talk about some letters she wanted to translate )
Maybe it was the late evening 'oh Ricardo, I had a bad dream' aspect of it that made Gerry a bit cross
Just another angle to consider
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 08:57:33 PM
Gerry didn't express anger at the fact that Kate's dream had influenced the investigation though ... he expressed anger that her dream has been misinterpreted
Thinking about it though, maybe he was angry because he found out for the first time that while he was in Washington Katemade a late evening call to Paiva ( she didn't put the twins to bed until 9.15pm that night ) and she says herself in the book that it was in the 'evening' that she rang Paiva ( to talk about some letters she wanted to translate )
Maybe it was the late evening 'oh Ricardo, I had a bad dream' aspect of it that made Gerry a bit cross
Just another angle to consider
A very good angle
Gerrys a control freak, anything he didnt know about wouldmake him act out like that IMO
he has taken control of things from the off and meddling in things he had no right to, imo he jeopardised the investigation from tampering with the crime scene, ans thats BEFORE he went out searching, ie muddling with the shutters and letting others do the same, as well as letting loads of people into the crime scene, and all before police were called or got there, to unleashing a media scrum,to ignoring the pjs advice, and throughout treating the authorities like idiots, ebile paying lip service,aided and abetted by the british authorities and the verminous british press and his pathetic advisers all around 8((()*/
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on June 06, 2013, 09:05:06 PM
Yes, let's explore this "very good" angle (based on zero evidence) of Gerry the jealous husband in order to mock and deride him anew. Well done Icabod.
I don't think wondering if Gerry may have been a bit upset to find out that Kate had called Paiva to talk about her bad dream is 'mocking' him at all
I think it would be quite a human reaction on his part
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: DCI on June 06, 2013, 09:09:32 PM
I don't think wondering if Gerry may have been a bit upset to find out that Kate had called Paiva to talk about her bad dream is 'mocking' him at all
I think it would be quite a human reaction on his part
Anyone with a brain, would know, a Liason Officer is there to help, anytime, day or night. Why would Gerry be upset? Thats what Paiva was supposed to be doing, not trying to find anything to set them up!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 09:31:37 PM
If Paiva had misinterpreted, or even just misunderstood what Kate had told him ( about her dream ) , why didn't she take the opportunity to point that out in her book ?
It was something of such significance to the Portuguese police that the direction of the investigation changed as a consequence of it ... and much was made of it at the hearing in Lisbon
Yet Kate did not even give it a cursory mention in her book
Good questions.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 06, 2013, 09:37:04 PM
If Paiva had misinterpreted, or even just misunderstood what Kate had told him ( about her dream ) , why didn't she take the opportunity to point that out in her book ? It was something of such significance to the Portuguese police that the direction of the investigation changed as a consequence of it ... and much was made of it at the hearing in Lisbon Yet Kate did not even give it a cursory mention in her book "
................... Was it mentioned in Amaral's book?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 09:46:57 PM
'A third witness said the turning point of the investigation came following a tearful call from Mrs McCann who, after a dream, told police where to search for her daughter’s body.'
Anyone with a brain, would know, a Liason Officer is there to help, anytime, day or night. Why would Gerry be upset? Thats what Paiva was supposed to be doing, not trying to find anything to set them up!
Own experience is the only explanation, unless of course, they know Gerry McCann personally & can testify that he is indeed one of these jealous husbands they're on about.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 06, 2013, 09:54:25 PM
Gerry didn't express anger at the fact that Kate's dream had influenced the investigation though ... he expressed anger that her dream has been misinterpreted
Thinking about it though, maybe he was angry because he found out for the first time that while he was in Washington Katemade a late evening call to Paiva ( she didn't put the twins to bed until 9.15pm that night ) and she says herself in the book that it was in the 'evening' that she rang Paiva ( to talk about some letters she wanted to translate )
Maybe it was the late evening 'oh Ricardo, I had a bad dream' aspect of it that made Gerry a bit cross
Just another angle to consider
it's not an angle to consider at all - it is something straight from your imagination.
It should be good for another 10 pages at least.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 06, 2013, 09:54:41 PM
'A third witness said the turning point of the investigation came following a tearful call from Mrs McCann who, after a dream, told police where to search for her daughter’s body.'
If Paiva had misinterpreted, or even just misunderstood what Kate had told him ( about her dream ) , why didn't she take the opportunity to point that out in her book ? It was something of such significance to the Portuguese police that the direction of the investigation changed as a consequence of it ... and much was made of it at the hearing in Lisbon Yet Kate did not even give it a cursory mention in her book "
................... Was it mentioned in Amaral's book?
Anyone? If Kate's dream was such a "turning point" in the investigation why is it not mentioned in Amaral's book? Or is it?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mrs. B on June 06, 2013, 10:00:14 PM
Ah yes! The ever reliable and accurate press reports. Strange how press reports by pro's are dismissed, but allowed as proof when anti's post them.
"You really should try and do more serious research than the Mail, it will do you good for a general education at least into tabloid reporting". Apparently, the Sun is so much better. LOL
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 06, 2013, 10:09:06 PM
During the McCanns attempt to have Amaral's book banned Ricardo Paiva gave evidence of a telephone call made by Kate, while Gerry was absent. He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.
Of course Gerry, in front of the world's press, denied that Kate had ever had such a dream or that something must have been lost in translation ( unlikely as Paiva spoke perfect English).
What are we to make of this episode ?
Did Kate keep the phonecall from Gerry and, if so, why ?
Text amended in red to accord with the newspaper article quoted. Admin
bump
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 10:20:26 PM
"A THIRD WITNESS SAID THE TURNING POINT OF THE INVESTIGATION CAME FOLLOWING A TEARFUL CALL FROM MRS MCCANN WHO, AFTER A DREAM, TOLD POLICE WHERE TO SEARCH FOR HER DAUGHTER'S BODY.
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liason between the McCanns and Portuguese police in the days following their daughter’s disappearance told the court he had received the phone call in late July 2007. “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying,” he said. “She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there. “She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
Just in case anyone missed it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mo Stache on June 06, 2013, 10:26:31 PM
"A THIRD WITNESS SAID THE TURNING POINT OF THE INVESTIGATION CAME FOLLOWING A TEARFUL CALL FROM MRS MCCANN WHO, AFTER A DREAM, TOLD POLICE WHERE TO SEARCH FOR HER DAUGHTER'S BODY.
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liason between the McCanns and Portuguese police in the days following their daughter’s disappearance told the court he had received the phone call in late July 2007. “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying,” he said. “She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there. “She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
Just in case anyone missed it.
Who is this third witness? Goncola Amaral perhaps? Who got it from Paiva? Hardly an independent witness now is it?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Redblossom on June 06, 2013, 10:58:49 PM
Ah well I also quoted another paper which definitaely said dead and body, seems to have been deleted, it was in the mail as well
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: gilet on June 06, 2013, 11:21:23 PM
“Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying,” he said. “She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
Exactly the same as the words reported in the OP article. The fact that the Telegraph have chosen (as you did "Faithlilly") to interpret them to mean Kate dreamt of a dead body is neither here nor there - Paiva's quote makes it clear it was HIS impression and supposition!
An impression. And that is how the case was being investigated. I see.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on June 06, 2013, 11:54:57 PM
Interesting to note that the Telegraph article you linked to this evening was written on the 12th Jan 2010, and the one you linked to in the OP was posted on the 13th Jan and the reference to Kate telling Paiva she had dreamed about Madeleine's body was absent from the amended, later version. Seems like the Telegraph writers are sticklers for the facts after all.
Strange then that it can still be found in a quick search of their archives.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Moderator on May 02, 2014, 05:57:11 PM
Kate had dream of where to dig
POLICE are ready to dig up a hillside where distraught Kate McCann dreamt missing daughter Madeleine had been placed.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 02:22:29 PM
There was me thinking Kate never had this dream.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDveSZZGuM
Telegraph, January 2010
Madeleine McCann: mother's dream was 'turning point' in investigation, court hears
Police investigating Madeleine McCann's disappearance began searching for her body after her mother, Kate, told detectives about a dream which suggested the toddler was dead, a court heard.
"Despite everything, until a certain moment in the investigation, the [McCann] family sustained and fed the abduction thesis. Nevertheless, at an uncertain date, the family suggested to consult a person that might, eventually, indicate the probable location of little Madeleine's cadaver. This fact became inexplicable to the members of the investigation, given the fact that it was the family members themselves who raised the possibility of little Maddie's death."
in Process 201/07.0GALGS, volume XVII, page 2594
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on May 07, 2014, 02:43:25 PM
Isn't that the dream that Gerry McCann stood outside the court in Portugal denying Kate had ever had ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 07, 2014, 02:45:23 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 02:45:45 PM
NO ..paiva claims Kate told him...perhaps its his poor english
Are you assuming his english language might be poor or do you have some confirmation of that? I don't know the answer, maybe it's poor, maybe it's good, just curious if you know?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on May 07, 2014, 04:31:30 PM
Isn't that the dream that Gerry McCann stood outside the court in Portugal denying Kate had ever had ?
Gerry said Kate had never had a dream that Madeleine was BURIED somewhere. She hadn't
Quote from the Telegraph. By Fiona Govan in Lisbon 7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.
He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there. The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.
Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.” UNQUOTE
How can saying your daughter may be ON a hill and you want the police to go and look for her give the impression that she is dead and buried?
More importantly - how can anyone have confidence in any police force who considers that a dream by a grieving mother, is to be regarded as a turning point in a missing child case? Can you imagine SY making such a claim? The mind boggles.
It's obvious that Kate had a very vivid dream about Madeleine - as it is common for for people do at such traumatic times - and as Gerry wasn't there she rang Ricardo Paivo in the (mistaken) belief that he was their friend. IMO
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 04:45:44 PM
Gerry said Kate had never had a dream that Madeleine was BURIED somewhere. She hadn't
Quote from the Telegraph. By Fiona Govan in Lisbon 7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.
He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there. The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.
Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.” UNQUOTE
How can saying your daughter may be ON a hill and you want the police to go and look for her give the impression that she is dead and buried?
More importantly - how can anyone have confidence in any police force who considers that a dream by a grieving mother, is to be regarded as a turning point in a missing child case? Can you imagine SY making such a claim? The mind boggles.
It's obvious that Kate had a very vivid dream about Madeleine - as it is common for for people do at such traumatic times - and as Gerry wasn't there she rang Ricardo Paivo in the (mistaken) belief that he was their friend. IMO
Yeah, all she meant was that Maddie was sitting on the hillside didn't she.
That was exactly what she meant wasn't it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2014, 04:53:27 PM
Or more precisely, we only know what he said that she said. Do we know what she said that she said?
we know what Gerry said...both paiva and gerry confirm there was no dream about death...paiva also confirms it was he who interpreted the dream as one relating to death
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 05:05:42 PM
kate knows what she meant..you don't and neither does paiva...you only know what she said....
You would think people would be more than a little disturbed to know that a dream was actually regarded by the investigating team - as a turning point in the case! But apparently not. Incomprehensible.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
You would think people would be more than a little disturbed to know that a dream was actually regarded by the investigating team - as a turning point in the case! But apparently not. Incomprehensible.
Just as surprising is that people on this forum support those who have been shown time and time again to be incompetent
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 05:08:39 PM
That's a good point, has she ever said what she said?
Does she say what she said, when he said what she said or if she said what he said she said, in her book?
This is what Kate McCann says about that phone call she made to Ricardo Paiva in late July ( whilst Gerry was in Washington ) ;
"That evening I phoned Ricardo Paiva to ask for his help with a couple of letters I needed to have translated. He sounded strange, distant; certainly not his usual self. He mentioned the forthcoming ground search, adding that Encarnacao wanted to talk to us before it began. I distinctly remember him saying, 'Our investigation will be changing direction'. Danie Krugel's report had given them a bit of a jolt, he told me"
It should be noted that when Kate wrote the above, Ricardo Paiva had already told a court that during that phone call from Kate she had told him about her 'bad dream' ... yet she makes no reference to it and offers no denial
This is what Ricardo Paiva said about the call ;
"Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away, and she was crying"
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 07:17:26 PM
This is what Kate McCann says about that phone call she made to Ricardo Paiva in late July ( whilst Gerry was in Washington ) ;
"That evening I phoned Ricardo Paiva to ask for his help with a couple of letters I needed to have translated. He sounded strange, distant; certainly not his usual self. He mentioned the forthcoming ground search, adding that Encarnacao wanted to talk to us before it began. I distinctly remember him saying, 'Our investigation will be changing direction'. Danie Krugel's report had given them a bit of a jolt, he told me"
It should be noted that when Kate wrote the above, Ricardo Paiva had already told a court that during that phone call from Kate she had told him about her 'bad dream' ... yet she makes no reference to it and offers no denial
This is what Ricardo Paiva said about the call ;
"Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away, and she was crying"
Thanks for that.
I've never read Kate's book, I'm not sure I could get through the whole thing without losing the will to live.
Interesting that she neither confirms nor denies.
Well, it appears the Sun have taken as read that Kate had said what Paiva said, and inferred from it that Maddie was dead.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 07, 2014, 08:09:49 PM
So hideho made a video to highlight Gerry's lie but she was lying herself
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 08:27:15 PM
What reason did Gerry have to deny Kate dreaming Maddie was 'buried' , when in court that day Paiva apparently said 'on' ?
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
This is what Kate McCann says about that phone call she made to Ricardo Paiva in late July ( whilst Gerry was in Washington ) ;
"That evening I phoned Ricardo Paiva to ask for his help with a couple of letters I needed to have translated. He sounded strange, distant; certainly not his usual self. He mentioned the forthcoming ground search, adding that Encarnacao wanted to talk to us before it began. I distinctly remember him saying, 'Our investigation will be changing direction'. Danie Krugel's report had given them a bit of a jolt, he told me"
It should be noted that when Kate wrote the above, Ricardo Paiva had already told a court that during that phone call from Kate she had told him about her 'bad dream' ... yet she makes no reference to it and offers no denial
This is what Ricardo Paiva said about the call ;
"Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away, and she was crying"
I disagree that Paiva and Kate were both talking about the same phone call.
It seems obvious to me that the phone call Kate describes in her book is not the call she made to Paiva about the dream which it also pretty obvious took place before the one she describes about ringing him for help over letters.
IMO This is borne out by the fact that Paiva said to her .... ''our investigation WILL be changing direction'' ....which proves that the phone call about the dream had already taken place on a previous night and - and having been discussed with the PJ team - was the reason for that 'change in direction he mentions to her. But rather than reveal to Kate that it was her dream which had caused this change in direction - he told her it was related to the Krugel report. IMO
IOW There were two separate phone calls made on different nights. One from a distraught Kate telling him about her dream when she was crying, - and the other when she rang him requesting help with letter translation.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: jassi on May 07, 2014, 08:36:41 PM
... It seems obvious to me that the phone call Kate describes in her book is not the call she made to Paiva about the dream which it also pretty obvious took place before the one she describes about ringing him for help over letters ...
I agree, two different calls.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on May 07, 2014, 09:03:37 PM
It seems likely that Paiva did recieve a phonecall about the dream. The imagery of laying on a hillside occurs both in what Paiva reportedly claimed he was told in a phonecall about the dream, and in a description of a mental image (with no associated phonecall mentioned) in KM's book IIRC but I need to check I might have it wrong?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on May 07, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
You mean she told him that she didn't have a dream? Why should she do that ? And how would he know for sure that that was the truth?
IMO She would naturally tell Gerry about her dream, which did not include anything about Madeleine being dead or buried anywhere. Paivo's statement - in which even he didn't claim Kate had told him Madeleine was dead and buried on a hillside - has been turned into a load of disinformation by 'sceptics' - an example of which which was posted on here a while back.
Quote from: Luz on Today at 12:23:51 AM snipped
In fact it was Ricardo Paiva who first was called by Mrs. McCann about the dream where she saw her daughter dead and insisted she was buried in a certain spot in Praia da Luz.... Unquote
Totally untrue - as Gerry was pointing out to the Press.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 09:22:05 PM
IMO She would naturally tell Gerry about her dream, which did not include anything about Madeleine being dead or buried anywhere. Paivo's statement - in which even he didn't claim Kate had told him Madeleine was dead and buried on a hillside - has been turned into a load of disinformation by 'sceptics' - an example of which which was posted on here a while back.
Quote from: Luz on Today at 12:23:51 AM snipped
In fact it was Ricardo Paiva who first was called by Mrs. McCann about the dream where she saw her daughter dead and insisted she was buried in a certain spot in Praia da Luz.... Unquote
Totally untrue - as Gerry was pointing out to the Press.
So, Mr Paiva didn't say 'buried' , Kate apparently hadn't said 'buried' , no one said 'buried', yet Mr McCann came out of court & denied Kate dreaming Maddie was 'buried'.
One can only wonder then, why Mr McCann had burial on his mind, when no one else had mentioned 'burial' in the first instance.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on May 07, 2014, 09:24:43 PM
Well if Paiva invented it he was very lucky to happen to invent imagery which was much later described IMO in the book IIRC. I do not have book here now so I can't post the relevant text and I might be wrong but IIRC it is there.. BTW IMO the witness is 100% innocent and having a dream like this is IMO a natural thing to happen, and for peeps to turn it into some sort of confession is very incorrect logic IMO.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 09:28:29 PM
Well if Paiva invented it he was very lucky to happen to invent imagery which was much later described IMO in the book IIRC. I do not have book here now so I can't post the relevant text and I might be wrong but IIRC it is there.. BTW IMO the witness is 100% innocent and having a dream like this is IMO a natural thing to happen, and for peeps to turn it into some sort of confession is very incorrect logic IMO.
I haven't suggested Paiva invented this dream.
It's the 'buried' bit that's in question.
It seems the only person to say 'buried' at any point was Mr McCann.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on May 07, 2014, 09:30:39 PM
Well if Paiva invented it he was very lucky to happen to invent imagery which was much later described IMO in the book IIRC. I do not have book here now so I can't post the relevant text and I might be wrong but IIRC it is there.. BTW IMO the witness is 100% innocent and having a dream like this is IMO a natural thing to happen, and for peeps to turn it into some sort of confession is very incorrect logic IMO.
I haven't got the book, but this is from the book I believe
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Cariad on May 07, 2014, 09:36:49 PM
Well if Paiva invented it he was very lucky to happen to invent imagery which was much later described IMO in the book IIRC. I do not have book here now so I can't post the relevant text and I might be wrong but IIRC it is there.. BTW IMO the witness is 100% innocent and having a dream like this is IMO a natural thing to happen, and for peeps to turn it into some sort of confession is very incorrect logic IMO.
It's Sadie and Benice isn't it? Go on, say I've got it!
Wait a minute.... that post was a parody mush up of two forum members here wasn't it?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: icabodcrane on May 07, 2014, 09:38:43 PM
I disagree that Paiva and Kate were both talking about the same phone call.
It seems obvious to me that the phone call Kate describes in her book is not the call she made to Paiva about the dream which it also pretty obvious took place before the one she describes about ringing him for help over letters.
IMO This is borne out by the fact that Paiva said to her .... ''our investigation WILL be changing direction'' ....which proves that the phone call about the dream had already taken place on a previous night and - and having been discussed with the PJ team - was the reason for that 'change in direction he mentions to her. But rather than reveal to Kate that it was her dream which had caused this change in direction - he told her it was related to the Krugel report. IMO
IOW There were two separate phone calls made on different nights. One from a distraught Kate telling him about her dream when she was crying, - and the other when she rang him requesting help with letter translation.
Well you might disagree but there is certainly no evidence to support your opinion
Kate says in her book that she made 'a' call to Ricardo Paiva whilst Gerry was in Washington
Ricardo Paiva says Kate made 'a' call to him whilst Gerry was away
You might 'imagine' that Kate made more than one call to Paiva ... but that's all it is ... your imagination
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: VIXTE on May 07, 2014, 09:41:33 PM
Kate's reaction is a typical bereavement reaction. She's lost a child.
Trying to interpret her psychological reactions at this point is stupid and cruel.
A normal human being wouldn't wish this to happen to their worst enemy.
Picking up on people in this state and pretending they should react as if nothing has happen it is very cruel.
I am not an evil person but I wish .......
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on May 07, 2014, 09:43:33 PM
It's Sadie and Benice isn't it? Go on, say I've got it!
Wait a minute.... that post was a parody mush up of two forum members here wasn't it?
Sadie and Benice what? You've lost me.
My original post was in reply to Icabs who claimed that the phone call to Paiva Kate talks about in her book was the same phone call Paiva talked about in court. Clearly (well to me anyway) that wasn't the case.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 09:45:29 PM
Good job I haven't done what you mentioned here then.
It's Gerry's state of mind I've questioned.
Did you miss that bit?
And Gerry also lost a child.
Not even a proper psychologist with years of experience would 'judge' or define their patients at this state of mind. I've had this happened in my family and a psychologist refused to treat a member of my family right after the bereavement moment.
The armchair psychologists in here who know it all and better than the specialists in the field continue to amaze me..
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on May 07, 2014, 09:52:21 PM
Well you might disagree but there is certainly no evidence to support your opinion
Kate says in her book that she made 'a' call to Ricardo Paiva whilst Gerry was in Washington
Ricardo Paiva says Kate made 'a' call to him whilst Gerry was away
You might 'imagine' that Kate made more than one call to Paiva ... but that's all it is ... your imagination
Ricardo Paiva became very friendly with the McCanns, he invited them to dinner, their children played together. He was their Portuguese Liason officer. Of course they would be phoning one another. To suggest Kate and Paivo only ever spoke once on the phone is ridiculous IMO. Gerry WAS in Washington - which is probably why she turned to the person who she believed was a friendly face in the PJ team.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on May 07, 2014, 09:56:12 PM
Is it possible to deny something that is true without fibbing?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 10:01:17 PM
Not even a proper psychologist with years of experience would 'judge' or define their patients at this state of mind. I've had this happened in my family and a psychologist refused to treat a member of my family right after the bereavement moment.
The armchair psychologists in here who know it all and better than the specialists in the field continue to amaze me..
No judgement so far here, I'm questioning why he was denying something that hadn't even been said.
That being Kate dreaming their daughter was buried specifically.
No one said that did they? Apart from Gerry.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: VIXTE on May 07, 2014, 10:18:22 PM
No judgement so far here, I'm questioning why he was denying something that hadn't even been said.
That being Kate dreaming their daughter was buried specifically.
No one said that did they? Apart from Gerry.
How would YOU know if it hasn't been said. You would know only what has been reported in MSM. And plus you take all of these MSM reports for granted. And plus you behave as if Kate and Gerry are well know to YOU and YOU would know what is going on in their heads and YOU have every right to know all about Kate and Gerry.
My days, what kind of world we are coming to?
This is not an episode of a Big Brother.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 10:21:56 PM
How would YOU know if it hasn't been said. You would know only what has been reported in MSM. And plus you take all of these MSM reports for granted. And plus you behave as if Kate and Gerry are well know to YOU and YOU would know what is going on in their heads and YOU have every right to know all about Kate and Gerry.
My days, what kind of world we are coming to?
This is not an episode of a Big Brother.
You are assuming it was said then, on what basis?
Because Gerry said so & Paiva didn't?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: VIXTE on May 07, 2014, 10:37:30 PM
I just don't see the importance of it. Why does it matter? Maybe Gerry heard of rumours? Maybe a reporter called him and asked about it?
These were grieving parents at the time. To my family it was said by doctors to not to take for granted and not to be hurt by anything what the family member who was in bereavement said to us. And in here we see threads and threads about what Kate and Gerry said or what they thought.. For gods sake, their whole life was turning ups and down.. if I was in their shoes I would be in a psychiatric ward long ago.. And it seems some people wish exactly this to happen. They don't like seeing this family still standing and still fighting to know what happened to their daughter.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 07, 2014, 10:42:36 PM
I just don't see the importance of it. Why does it matter? Maybe Gerry heard of rumours? Maybe a reporter called him and asked about it?
These were grieving parents at the time. To my family it was said by doctors to not to take for granted and not to be hurt by anything what the family member who was in bereavement said to us. And in here we see threads and threads about what Kate and Gerry said or what they thought.. For gods sake, their whole life was turning ups and down.. if I was in their shoes I would be in a psychiatric ward long ago.. And it seems some people wish exactly this to happen. They don't like seeing this family still standing and still fighting to know what happened to their daughter.
I see you go by the assumption that they don't actually know, which no one except for them can really be certain of.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on May 08, 2014, 11:58:04 AM
Kate would still be in deep grief after a mere 3 months - made even worse because she didn't know what had happened to her little girl. Dreams during that time can be very vivid - and can reflect inner longings. For all we know the intensity of her dream made her hope that someone had dumped Madeleine alive on a hillside where she could be found.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on May 08, 2014, 12:01:09 PM
Kate would still be in deep grief after a mere 3 months - made even worse because she didn't know what had happened to her little girl. Dreams during that time can be very vivid - and can reflect inner longings. For all we know the intensity of her dream made her hope that someone had dumped Madeleine alive on a hillside where she could be found.
Grief i can agree with.
As to what happened that night and subsequently, you do not know.
It has to be tested in court.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2014, 12:07:56 PM
Kate would still be in deep grief after a mere 3 months - made even worse because she didn't know what had happened to her little girl. Dreams during that time can be very vivid - and can reflect inner longings. For all we know the intensity of her dream made her hope that someone had dumped Madeleine alive on a hillside where she could be found.
How do you know she didn't.
It's quite possible she did.
And she did.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 08, 2014, 12:47:55 PM
The alleged phone call was late July 2007, almost 3 months after the disappearance. I think it's therefore pretty safe to say that Kate was suggesting the 'search' should be for a body (although not necessarily buried).
I mean't to post this last night but was distracted unfortunately. I have checked Kate's book and there is no mention of any dream about seeing Madeleine on a hillside. The only reference she makes to any dream is the one where she meets up with Madeleine at the crèche.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2014, 03:55:02 PM
I suggest you look up the meaning of the word alleged.
By the way, continually making apologies for the McCann's at every turn......Don't you realise how ridiculously weak that makes your argument.
Apologies at every turn...would you like to list the apologies I have made...you can't because you are wrong again. All I do is correct the posts that are incorrect
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2014, 04:46:34 PM
Quite possibly but as it is Insp Paiva who alleges the conversation it is not unreasonable to take his interpretation at face value. If Kate did say it and meant it a different way then fair enough but the very fact there is no mention of the incident in her own book just adds to the suspicion.....much like surpressing the Smithman efits.
Paiva is either being accused of lying or misinterpreting the incident. It can't be both.
His interpretation of the alleged phone call being a 'turning point' suggests that there may have been other suspicious behaviours displayed by the McCann's which may have in turn led Insp Paiva to question their role in the disappearance? He did after all spend time in their company.
do you have a source for paiva saying that...I thought it was the dogs that were turning point
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Angelo222 on May 08, 2014, 04:55:41 PM
Apologies at every turn...would you like to list the apologies I have made...you can't because you are wrong again. All I do is correct the posts that are incorrect
In your opinion Mr Davel!!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on May 08, 2014, 04:56:23 PM
Quite possibly but as it is Insp Paiva who alleges the conversation it is not unreasonable to take his interpretation at face value. If Kate did say it and meant it a different way then fair enough but the very fact there is no mention of the incident in her own book just adds to the suspicion.....much like surpressing the Smithman efits.
Paiva is either being accused of lying or misinterpreting the incident. It can't be both.
His interpretation of the alleged phone call being a 'turning point' suggests that there may have been other suspicious behaviours displayed by the McCann's which may have in turn led Insp Paiva to question their role in the disappearance? He did after all spend time in their company.
Why does it have to mean something sinister because she didn't mention it in her book? I expect she had lots of dreams - surely you wouldn't expect her to mention every one of them?
I still can't get over the fact that 'grown up' policemen actually decided that an investigation had changed direction because of a DREAM!!! What sort of professional policework is that? It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2014, 05:53:20 PM
Maybe it wasn't the dream. Maybe it was that Paiva's interpretation of the phone call was the first time that either of the McCann's had intimated anything other than finding Madeleine alive? Maybe Kate's body language had changed in a way that cast doubt and this phone call tipped things further along? Maybe that is what he meant by a change in direction?
Without being present for all previous conversations it's impossible to know.
According to Paiva it was the dream which caused a change of direction in the case. I ask again - what sort of policemen would claim that a major turning point in an investigation came about because of a dream - and expect to be taken seriously? ..... Well the Amaral team apparently - so what does that say about them?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2014, 06:48:54 PM
Maybe it wasn't the dream. Maybe it was that Paiva's interpretation of the phone call was the first time that either of the McCann's had intimated anything other than finding Madeleine alive? Maybe Kate's body language had changed in a way that cast doubt and this phone call tipped things further along? Maybe that is what he meant by a change in direction?
Without being present for all previous conversations it's impossible to know.
you mean her body language over the phone
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 08, 2014, 08:43:18 PM
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
The turning point that Paiva refers to is that Kate was discussing a dead Madeleine as opposed to previously only contemplating Madeleine being alive. They may have been studying the McCann's behaviour for many weeks before this moment? Who knows?
There is a big difference between suggesting the whole investigation was solely down to a dream or suggesting Kate's behaviour, regarding discussing a dead Madeleine was a contributing factor in the investigation.
Who daid kate was discussing a dead madeleine...........you are making things up
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Cariad on May 08, 2014, 08:57:03 PM
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
The turning point that Paiva refers to is that Kate was discussing a dead Madeleine as opposed to previously only contemplating Madeleine being alive. They may have been studying the McCann's behaviour for many weeks before this moment? Who knows?
There is a big difference between suggesting the whole investigation was solely down to a dream or suggesting Kate's behaviour, regarding discussing a dead Madeleine was a contributing factor in the investigation.
Kate was not discussing a dead madeleine...that was paiva's interpretation
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2014, 09:33:51 AM
As I was kind enough to provide a quote for Paiva saying it was "his impression" I was just wondering, could you provide a quote from Kate where she states she was not discussing a dead Madeleine?
why should kate say what she was not discussing.........she would need a list a mile long.....she talked of seeing maddie on a hill and paiva put his own spin on it...forums then thought kate had said maddie was dead
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 09, 2014, 09:35:22 AM
why should kate say what she was not discussing.........she would need a list a mile long.....she talked of seeing maddie on a hill and paiva put his own spin on it...forums then thought kate had said maddie was dead
And Gerry thought someone said buried.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on May 09, 2014, 09:47:41 AM
As I was kind enough to provide a quote for Paiva saying it was "his impression" I was just wondering, could you provide a quote from Kate where she states she was not discussing a dead Madeleine?
There isn't one AFAIK. Why would she need to - when Gerry had already stated that she had not dreamt about Madeleine being dead or buried anywhere.
Or maybe she was too busy being gobsmacked that supposedly professional police officers had actually decided that Paiva's interpretation of a DREAM! was a good enough reason to cause a change of direction in the case!!
Jaw dropping stuff IMO.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2014, 09:51:16 AM
As I was kind enough to provide a quote for Paiva saying it was "his impression" I was just wondering, could you provide a quote from Kate where she states she was not discussing a dead Madeleine?
we are not discussing what kate didn't say...we are discussing what kate said......
so the whole investigation turned on paiva's impression...not what kate said...so a mistake by paiva...no wonder thet got it all wrong..don't they understand you need evidence to charge someone
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on May 09, 2014, 10:30:11 AM
So Kate not talking about Madeleine being dead is just your own impression then, not fact. Thought so. If it was fact then you could have easily provided a quote from Kate saying something along the lines of........"I was not referring to a dead Madeleine"
.......but it appears that you can't.
Why should she have said it?
You protesteth too much.
No one can produce what isn't said, no matter how hard you twist their arm.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2014, 10:41:41 AM
Can you provide a quote for Gerry then please? If he uses the phrase "dead or buried" then that's sufficient to cover it. Even if Paiva never used the words buried.
By the way, IMO the turning point was Paiva's impression that Kate had began to discuss a dead Madeleine. After all he said so, didn't he? Paiva spent time with them so was in a good position to pick up on any behaviour. It's what any good detective would look for.
so the turning point was merely paivas impression...who said paivas a good detective...the archiving report would suggest he is not
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: jassi on May 09, 2014, 10:48:58 AM
The alleged phone call was late July 2007, almost 3 months after the disappearance. I think it's therefore pretty safe to say that Kate was suggesting the 'search' should be for a body (although not necessarily buried).
this is what I take issue with....you are stating your opinion as a fact..it isn't..its just your opinion
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2014, 11:26:56 AM
I didn't present anything as fact, unlike you who presented it as fact that Kate was not talking about a dead Madeleine.
What I said was "it's safe to say"
For your benefit Davel....
English definition of “it's safe to say (that)” it's safe to say (that) C1 used to say that you are confident about what you are going to say: I think it's safe to say that the crisis is now over.
you may be confident in what you may be confident in what you are saying...but it is just your opinion...nothing more
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: John on May 09, 2014, 11:42:25 AM
It's a pity one of those learned lawyers didn't ask Paiva about the dream when they had the opportunity to do so when he was under oath at the libel trial in Lisbon. Maybe they will ask Kate if she ever takes the stand to 'put the record straight'!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2014, 12:27:59 PM
What are you talking about Davel? You brought it up and claimed I was stating fact. If you can't back that claim up then shut up and move on.
I never claimed anything as fact, unlike you who presented it as fact on several occasions that Kate was not talking about a dead Madeleine. You have no idea whether it is fact or not.
neither did paiva
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on May 09, 2014, 01:52:21 PM
She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
So she didn't say she was dead.....paiva inferred it..
And Gerry inferred buried , for reasons known only to him, & Kate perhaps.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on May 09, 2014, 02:17:33 PM
Probably already on here, but.................................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
at 2mins
Sky Coverage of the Hearing day 2, 13th January 2010
BBC Coverage of the Hearing day 2, 13th January 2010
Pivot: Gerry McCann repudiated the PJ Inspectors who stated in court that their daughter Madeleine is dead. The father of the child disappeared in the Algarve, accuses therefore the Inspector Ricardo Paiva of lying, when he said that his wife Kate called him, in the summer of 2007, telling that she had a dream where her daughter was dead and buried at hill in Praia da Luz. The PJ inspector said that this dream was decisive to change the course of investigations.
Voice over (Sandra Felgueiras): After yesterdays absolute silence, Gerry and Kate arrived at the civil court at 9:30 am, ready to blow off steam.
SF: How did you support hearing the inspectors repeating that Madeleine is dead and that you are involved?
Gerry McCann: The most important thing yesterday was what the prosecutor said, there's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead.
Voice Over: At the same moment Gonçalo Amaral made a completely different assessment of the statements given yesterday by the former investigation colleagues. And even by the actual Nº2 of the PJ.
Gonçalo Amaral: Since yesterday I'm not the only one speaking, I can't say anything further since I'm in a injunction, so, about certain facts it's not only me talking. I'm not alone regarding that.
SF: Moita Flores ended up proving or corroborating, in the morning, that Madeleine couldn't have been abducted without any traces. During two hours, via video-conference, the former PJ inspector and actual Mayor of Santarém, praised the work done by the investigators of Madeleine's case, the same ones that Gerry McCann didn't spare criticism on his way out of the court, to go to London.
GM: It's particularly disappointing that certain police officers, withing Portimão, who considered us as possibly being involved in Madeleine's disappearence, have not been able to change their mind, inspite the lack of evidences. And it is this officers we are depending on for pursuing the investigation within Portugal. GM: I would like to make absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream, that Madeleine was buried somewhere. And, I don't know if something has been lost in interpretation, but that didn't happen.
Voice Over: Gerry declared untrue in this manner the sworn statement given yesterday by the inspector Ricardo Paiva, who, to the court explained that Kate's dream, that was told to him on the phone, two months later after the disappearance was crucial for the PJ to start investigating the hypothesis of the child being dead.
GM: We are not under trial, not at all. people may want to say that, but we were exonerated.[cut] The PJ tried... What was seen very clearly is that one thesis in particular tried to be proven, possibly more than any other.
SF: Do you think they were competent?
GM: (looks above SF) And there's no evidence to support it.
SF: Where they competent to you?
GM: (looks the other way) Sorry...
Sandra Felgueiras: He never criticized openly the Judiciary police but he implicitly made known what he thinks. Gerry McCann left this court at 4:30 pm, behind leaves Kate, who will be joined still today by Fiona Payne, one of the friends of the couple that was with them at the time of Madeleine's disappearence. The hearing will continue and end tomorrow.
RTPN (above) and RTP Coverage of the Hearing day 2, 13th January 2010
Voice Over (unknown journalist): They arrived before 10am and decided to talk to journalists.
Gerry McCann: The same, to continue to fight for Madeleine, the search and to protect her family.
Sandra Felgueiras: How did you support hearing the inspectors repeating that Madeleine is dead and that you are involved?
Gerry McCann: The most important thing yesterday was what the prosecutor said, there's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead.
SF: But then you heard...
GM: Let me finish, please. There's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead, and there's absolutely no evidence that were involved in her disappearence. That is the conclusion...
SF: Three people saying...
GM: That is the conclusion of the process, and that's what we're here debating.
Voice over: In the first session, that lasted more than 9 hours, Gonçalo Amaral's witnesses defended that the book 'Maddie, A Verdade da Mentira' only exposes facts that pertain to the process. All of them sustained the thesis that the British child is dead and that the parents hid the cadaver. The hearing continues with Moita Flores statement, via video-conference, he is the last witness requested by Gonçalo Amaral to be heard. The former PJ inspector says that he is not alone and believes that the book will be back on the bookshops.
Gonçalo Amaral: If I didn't believe it, then I wouldn't believe in this Country's Justice, I wouldn't have started the opposition, so, we have to trust.
Sandra Felgueiras: How have you faced the McCann couple?
GA: How? In a natural way.
SF: I want to ask you if you were satisfied for having heard the inspectors that repeated the thesis that you shared on the book?
Gonçalo Amaral: Since yesterday, I'm not the only one speaking, I can't say anything further since I'm in a injunction, so, about certain facts it's not only me talking. I'm not alone regarding that.
Voice over: The McCanns allege that the book 'A Verdade da Mentira' and the documentary broadcast by TVI divulge a thesis which they consider unsustainable, and that is hampering the search of the child. The provisional measure was decreed in September, the Court will decide if the book will ever be commercialized again.
It doesn't really matter one way or the other. Kate had a dream. Kate didn't have a dream. No one in their right mind would see a dream as evidence of guilt.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 01:36:21 PM
Paiva may have got it wrong, but Gerry Mccann's flat and fervent denial seems a bit OTT to say the least, as you say, if it's no big deal why did he make it one
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 01:41:49 PM
Paiva may have got it wrong, but Gerry Mccann's flat and fervent denial seems a bit OTT to say the least, as you say, if it's no big deal why did he make it one
Because it was a lie?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 01:58:59 PM
So he just made it up? I suspect somethng occurred and possibly was lost in translation, no one really knows, but to get flummoxed as Gerry Mccann did is, still, IMO OTT and smacks of pointless denial , or maybe the point was go paint Paiva in bad colours...horrible job these sueings, more trouble than they're worth, then again, if they get 300 grand for their trouble they may be laughing all the way to the bank
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 02:03:48 PM
The McCanns brought Krugel in first to find a body. This was before Martin Grime and his dogs arrived
Krugel landed in Praia da Luz with his machine on July 17 and embarked on a four day search - with the blessing of Portuguese detectives. He said: "I had a meeting with Kate and Gerry where I explained exactly how my technology works and what I was going to do.
He said: "Gerry sent me a strand of Madeleine's hair for DNA purposes, which had been removed from her coat."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2015, 02:21:27 PM
The McCanns brought Krugel in first to find a body. This was before Martin Grime and his dogs arrived
Krugel landed in Praia da Luz with his machine on July 17 and embarked on a four day search - with the blessing of Portuguese detectives. He said: "I had a meeting with Kate and Gerry where I explained exactly how my technology works and what I was going to do.
He said: "Gerry sent me a strand of Madeleine's hair for DNA purposes, which had been removed from her coat."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html
What absolute tosh. Krugel was employed by parents ... including Madeleine McCann's ... to find MISSING children.
**snip The developers of a new system says their technology can track missing people anywhere in the country, and beyond, by using a strand of hair. The equipment and system used is being kept top secret in Bloemfontein, but parents of children that were found say it really works.
The inventors say they only need DNA to find a missing person. The sample, technology and an advanced satellite system is enough to ensure a successful search.
Pierre Honiball, whose missing 14 year old son was found after 2 days, says the system works. “Undoubtedly there is a way to find somebody with whatever he uses and I can tell you this is the truth he found Andre within 25 minutes.” Jos Chadinha's frantic search for his missing daughter ended 90 minutes after providing strands of her hair. “He found her ... and he found her simply using the instruments.” http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 02:25:06 PM
So he just made it up? I suspect somethng occurred and possibly was lost in translation, no one really knows, but to get flummoxed as Gerry Mccann did is, still, IMO OTT and smacks of pointless denial , or maybe the point was go paint Paiva in bad colours...horrible job these sueings, more trouble than they're worth, then again, if they get 300 grand for their trouble they may be laughing all the way to the bank
I think you might be right about Lost in Translation But Paiva did say it in Court, from whence it was widely reported.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 02:35:30 PM
What absolute tosh. Krugel was employed by parents ... including Madeleine McCann's ... to find MISSING children.
**snip The developers of a new system says their technology can track missing people anywhere in the country, and beyond, by using a strand of hair. The equipment and system used is being kept top secret in Bloemfontein, but parents of children that were found say it really works.
The inventors say they only need DNA to find a missing person. The sample, technology and an advanced satellite system is enough to ensure a successful search.
Pierre Honiball, whose missing 14 year old son was found after 2 days, says the system works. “Undoubtedly there is a way to find somebody with whatever he uses and I can tell you this is the truth he found Andre within 25 minutes.” Jos Chadinha's frantic search for his missing daughter ended 90 minutes after providing strands of her hair. “He found her ... and he found her simply using the instruments.” http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/
Finding a 14 year old after 2 days is a lot different to finding a missing 4 year old child alive months later.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 02:47:14 PM
I think you might be right about Lost in Translation But Paiva did say it in Court, from whence it was widely reported.
Giving evidence under oath would make me think he didn't just make it up and that Kate Mccann did call him upset, about a dream or something similar, Who cares anyway now. One for the annals of history, but time will tell.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on July 26, 2015, 07:49:57 PM
What Gerry said was correct. Kate had never had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried anywhere.
This is what Paiva said in the recent court case:
QUOTE
The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.
Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there. UNQUOTE
Paivo's statement - in which he does not claim Kate had told him Madeleine was dead and buried on a hillside - has been turned into a load of disinformation by 'sceptics' - an example of which which was posted on here a while back:-
Quote from: Luz on Today at 12:23:51 AM snipped
In fact it was Ricardo Paiva who first was called by Mrs. McCann about the dream where she saw her daughter dead and insisted she was buried in a certain spot in Praia da Luz.... Unquote
Totally untrue - as Gerry was pointing out to the Press.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 07:55:00 PM
I don't think Kate was ever alone, was she? There was always some family member or friend there with her, especially if Gerry had to be away.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 08:11:22 PM
What Gerry said was correct. Kate had never had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried anywhere.
This is what Paiva said in the recent court case:
QUOTE
The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.
Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there. UNQUOTE
Paivo's statement - in which he does not claim Kate had told him Madeleine was dead and buried on a hillside - has been turned into a load of disinformation by 'sceptics' - an example of which which was posted on here a while back:-
Quote from: Luz on Today at 12:23:51 AM snipped
In fact it was Ricardo Paiva who first was called by Mrs. McCann about the dream where she saw her daughter dead and insisted she was buried in a certain spot in Praia da Luz.... Unquote
Totally untrue - as Gerry was pointing out to the Press.
How would Gerry know when he wasn't there. He wasn't involved in the telephone conversation. It was Kate and Paiva. This diary entry was when Gerry was away in Washington.
MONDAY, JULY 23: I got up at 7.00 and went running. I was surrounded by a pack of dogs (more or less 12)—it really wasn't a nice experience. I went to the flat, high part of the cliff as I felt really alone and a little frightened. Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here. Please God, make sure she's alive. Please God, bring her back quickly to us.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on July 26, 2015, 08:24:24 PM
This diary entry was when Gerry was away in Washington.
MONDAY, JULY 23: I got up at 7.00 and went running. I was surrounded by a pack of dogs (more or less 12)—it really wasn't a nice experience. I went to the flat, high part of the cliff as I felt really alone and a little frightened. Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here. Please God, make sure she's alive. Please God, bring her back quickly to us.
That is not what Paiva says she told him. He does end up saying she gave him the impression she was dead, but IMO that's a 'convenient' opinion on his part. And it is only his opinion.
What professional police team would allow a dream experienced by a desperately anxious mother of a missing child to actually change the direction of the investigation?! If SY did that - I would think they had all lost their marbles.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 08:32:18 PM
In my opinion, Paiva made a right fool of himself and the rest of them. I'm surprised The Judge didn't hoot with laughter.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 08:44:06 PM
That is not what Paiva says she told him. He does end up saying she gave him the impression she was dead, but IMO that's a 'convenient' opinion on his part. And it is only his opinion.
What professional police team would allow a dream experienced by a desperately anxious mother of a missing child to actually change the direction of the investigation?! If SY did that - I would think they had all lost their marbles.
What was she doing on a hill or in a sewer pipe for 3 months?
Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power. (TOTL)
23/07/2007 This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report. I also make comment on the recent claims made by a Mr Krugel as to the whereabouts of the missing child.
What was she doing on a hill or in a sewer pipe for 3 months?
Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power. (TOTL)
23/07/2007 This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report. I also make comment on the recent claims made by a Mr Krugel as to the whereabouts of the missing child.
Sorry PF - I don't see the connection between the above and Paiva stating in Court that a dream was a turning point in the case as far as the investigating police team were concerned. Don't you find it even slightly alarming to learn that apparently professional policemen decided that this dream changed the direction of the case? IMO it's a jawdropping revelation.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2015, 09:29:20 PM
What was she doing on a hill or in a sewer pipe for 3 months?
Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power. (TOTL)
23/07/2007 This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report. I also make comment on the recent claims made by a Mr Krugel as to the whereabouts of the missing child.
That's a quote from his book. So a big question mark as to it's veracity as far as I am concerned. Can you cite the statement in the files from which he took it please?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 29, 2015, 09:45:45 PM
Kate may well have been told this by mediums etc or she may have had a 'feeling' about it. My guess is they knew there was a 50/50 chance Maddie may be dead, if they were not involved in her disapearance. I am not making accusations, just covering all bases.
I feel uncomfortable thinking Kate was leading them on to find a dead child. I believe the police did over react on this point. I do beleive she did call the police mentioning her dream.
Whether she belived her dream/gut feeling and wanted it checked out or whether she was keeping them busy and trying to move them away from an actual place Maddie may have been taken is open for debate I guess.
I have vivid dreams a lot, mainly trivial things.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 09:48:06 PM
Kate may well have been told this by mediums etc or she may have had a 'feeling' about it. My guess is they knew there was a 50/50 chance Maddie may be dead, if they were not involved in her disapearance. I am not making accusations, just covering all bases.
I feel uncomfortable thinking Kate was leading them on to find a dead child. I believe the police did over react on this point. I do beleive she did call the police mentioning her dream.
Whether she belived her dream/gut feeling and wanted it checked out or whether she was keeping them busy and trying to move them away from an actual place Maddie may have been taken is open for debate I guess.
I have vivid dreams a lot, mainly trivial things.
One could say, it was on her conscience.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on July 29, 2015, 10:01:16 PM
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on July 31, 2015, 11:18:25 PM
The phonecall did not mention "buried" at all.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 01, 2015, 05:23:04 PM
Paiva himself didn't appear to know what he was talking about. And if he thought a dream suggested guilt then he was seriously deluded. If there ever was a dream.
Paiva was looking for a way to support Amaral, so any old rubbish would do. Kate had a dream. Oh My. Who didn't? I had a dream.
The investigation was going tits up according to Amaral's way of thinking. So Paiva was just another member of The Portimao school of thought that was carrying on the old ways. All Paiva did was to prove that The PJ were locked in the past, and he got coerced.
A Dream, for Christ's sake?
I seriously hope he won't get advanced in The PJ.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 11:50:17 PM
The same fear is mentioned in diary, at same place. and at around same date as phonecall to Paiva.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 12:04:31 AM
WEDNESDAY, JULY 18: It was suggested that Madeleine is dead and buried in an area close to the beach, behind the cliff.
Yes, this understandable fear by this honest witness comes IMO from reading a copy of the report by DK, followed by going running there alone, the fear was is expressed in writing, so it is likely it was also phoned to PJ liaison IMO.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 03:10:12 AM
Yes, this understandable fear by this honest witness comes IMO from reading a copy of the report by DK, followed by going running there alone, the fear was is expressed in writing, so it is likely it was also phoned to PJ liaison IMO.
So if this is right which it seems to be, all given, Paiva wasnt lying, lost in translation parts stand ie thought vision dream etc
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 01:01:54 AM
She has had three dreams of her, all of them describing a phone call she receives informing her that Madeleine has been found.
She said: ‘There she is and I’m cuddling her. The thing is, it’s so tangible. I can feel her, smell her, feel her snuggling into me, like she always did.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm This entry referring to the same fear as the phonecall on the same hill as the phonecall in the same period (DCtrip) as the phonecall "23 July ... ... Please God, don't let M be buried here"
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 07, 2015, 03:08:06 PM
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm This entry referring to the same fear as the phonecall on the same hill as the phonecall in the same period (DCtrip) as the phonecall "23 July ... ... Please God, don't let M be buried here"
Didn't The PJ nick and copy Kate's Diary?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 03:19:09 PM
The PJ had a search warrant for the villa granted by a judge so it was all legal. The villa was not on MH's original list of places to search. It was decided to search the villa because of the intelligence obtained at the apartment. The search warrant for the villa was obtained the same day as the villa search IIRC. The application and the warrant are in the files.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 07, 2015, 03:23:53 PM
The PJ had a search warrant for the villa granted by a judge so it was all legal. The villa was not on MH's original list of places to search. It was decided to search the villa because of the intelligence obtained at the apartment. The search warrant for the villa was obtained the same day as the villa search IIRC. The application and the warrant are in the files.
So perhaps that's where Paiva got the idea of a dream.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on August 07, 2015, 03:27:00 PM
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/19-Sep8/NOTW-14-09-08.htm This entry referring to the same fear as the phonecall on the same hill as the phonecall in the same period (DCtrip) as the phonecall "23 July ... ... Please God, don't let M be buried here"
Thank You, Pegasus,
She also supposedly wrote the entry Below..................I wonder who made that suggestion.
WEDNESDAY, JULY 18: It was suggested that Madeleine is dead and buried in an area close to the beach, behind the cliff.
What can I say? I feel my body's on the verge of collapse. How much pain and emotion can one body take? I had a bad afternoon. I was very worried, desperate, extremely on edge. I don't think I can take any more of this, I really can't. How much longer will this suffering go on? I need Madeleine ALIVE.
MONDAY, JULY 23: I got up at 7.00 and went running. I was surrounded by a pack of dogs (more or less 12)—it really wasn't a nice experience. I went to the flat, high part of the cliff as I felt really alone and a little frightened. Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here. Please God, make sure she's alive. Please God, bring her back quickly to us.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 03:48:09 PM
She also supposedly wrote the entry Below..................I wonder who made that suggestion.
WEDNESDAY, JULY 18: It was suggested that Madeleine is dead and buried in an area close to the beach, behind the cliff.
What can I say? I feel my body's on the verge of collapse. How much pain and emotion can one body take? I had a bad afternoon. I was very worried, desperate, extremely on edge. I don't think I can take any more of this, I really can't. How much longer will this suffering go on? I need Madeleine ALIVE.
MONDAY, JULY 23: I got up at 7.00 and went running. I was surrounded by a pack of dogs (more or less 12)—it really wasn't a nice experience. I went to the flat, high part of the cliff as I felt really alone and a little frightened. Please God, don't let Madeleine be buried here. Please God, make sure she's alive. Please God, bring her back quickly to us.
"It was suggested..." obviously IMO refers to Krugel's report. Krugel did not release his report to the press (he did that only many months later). However, in addition to giving the report to the PJ, he also gave a copy to the parents, in mid-July 2007. So that was the primary reason for her fear about that hill IMO.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 04:04:16 PM
@Anna. Krugel's report was communicated to the parents on 18th July (see KM book page 199) " ... close to or on the Rocha Negra cliff ... the implication of the 'static' signal was ..."
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on August 07, 2015, 04:43:53 PM
@Anna. Krugel's report was communicated to the parents on 18th July (see KM book page 199) " ... close to or on the Rocha Negra cliff ... the implication of the 'static' signal was ..."
Thanks Pegasus.
Sorry for the delay in answering. Due to a minor emergency last night, my Router and therefore connection, is unpredictable at present.
......................... It seems danie was there during the week before MH report on the 23rd July, so that is possibly, what was on Kate’s mind,when she made that diary entry on 18th.
It was not, however a dream.
It is interesting that DK tracked roads down to the sea……………..Smith sighting?
'The Locator' gives fresh hope to the McCanns I traced Maddie DNA to the sea News of the World
By Lucy Panton 07/10/2007
RENOWNED international manhunt expert, dubbed The Locator, sensationally revealed he has uncovered a telltale DNA trail left by snatched toddler Maddie McCann.
In a shock new twist, ex-cop Danie Krugel tracked a "forensic route" he believed her kidnapper took from her family's Portuguese holiday apartment through alleyways, roads and paths down to a nearby beach.
There the trail goes cold-crucially supporting the theory that Madeleine was then taken out to sea in a boat after being abducted on May 3.
And the McCanns are convinced Krugel's evidence means four-year-old Maddie was taken ALIVE and gives them hope she can still be found.
The experienced investigator told us: "I spent four nights in July carrying out my searches.
"I've been able to trace where Madeleine was in the resort and have drawn a map which has been given to the police.
"I can't reveal details as I don't want to alert anyone who might try to disturb the scene. But I believe I've traced where she was taken that night and now it's down to police to use their search experts to do the rest. The area to which my investigation led me is a difficult one to search."
"We tried to contact the family at the very beginning to offer our help, but unfortunately we didn't get called in until a couple of months after Madeleine went missing."
Desperate
News of Krugel's findings came as the News of the World discovered that forensic tests on DNA found in the apartment and hire car are "inconclusive"-completely refuting Portuguese police claims that they incriminate to Maddie's distraught parents, still branded official suspects.
In their desperate bid to find Madeleine the McCanns called in South African Krugel after hearing of a string of remarkable successes in his homeland, where he earned his nickname The Locator.
Krugel's hi-tech methods are a closely guarded secret and he refuses to give details of his techniques.
But his method uses DNA fragments and Global Positioning System (GPS) satellite technology to find missing persons, alive and dead.
The McCanns gave him a sample of Maddie's hair found on a coat that had been left at home in Rothley, Leicestershire, to carry out his probe, with the full cooperation of the cops in Praia da Luz.
Krugel's starting point was the ground floor apartment in the Mark Warner complex where she vanished, just a short distance away from the tapas bar where Kate and Gerry were dining with seven friends.
Using his secret techniques Krugel began tracing and following a DNA trail on a 15-minute route to the sea.
Portuguese cops were then called in to examine his dossier of evidence and immediately decided to carry out searches based on the information. A source told us: "In fact TWO searches were carried out although this has never been revealed.
"The police were worried that media in the area would see them but they managed to do it all without anyone finding out.
"They didn't find any trace of Madeleine but this did not mean Mr Krugel's information wasn't accurate. The investigations show the only option was for Madeleine to have been put on a boat and taken out to sea."
After police made inquiries around the nearby Lagos marina and other local boating communities there emerged the two theories that Madeleine's body was dumped at sea or she is still alive having been taken by boat abroad, possibly to Morocco.
Krugel's results also match a crucial eye-witness account on the evening of May 3 by Kate and Gerry's close friend Jane Tanner.
She said she saw a man carrying what appeared to be a child wrapped in a blanket close to their apartment.
In a witness statement to cops Miss Tanner said the child looked similar to Madeleine. The man has never been traced. Ironically for the McCanns, it was the work of Krugel that resulted in sniffer dogs being brought in and the couple being declared suspects.
Our source said: "It was suggested to the Portuguese police that after they'd searched the beach they should then use the dogs from Britain. And it was the behaviour of the dogs that caused them to believe they'd found this so-called 'scent of death'.
"This in fact may not have been the case but the police became convinced Kate and Gerry were involved.
"They are ignoring all the statements to the contrary, the DNA evidence said to have been found in the hire car which can be easily explained, and also the work of Mr Krugel who has had many successes."
"The Locator" traced victims of infamous South African paedophile Gert van Rooyan in the late 1980s. Six girls, aged 11 to 13, had vanished and police were baffled.
Using hair from the missing girls he repeatedly pinpointed the same spot and when the area was excavated bone fragments of victims was found.
He also traced the body of missing five-year-old girl, Naledi Ntebele, in just 20 minutes.
The News of the World has learned Kate and Gerry could finally be cleared after new forensic tests carried out in the UK have proved "inconclusive".
DNA testing by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham on samples of body fluids and blood have NOT provided a positive match to Madeleine.
An FSS source said that further "more complicated" tests were being carried out and denied claims they were holding back information from the Portuguese. Earlier British experts accused the Portuguese of overplaying early DNA evidence to put pressure on the McCanns.
In the days that followed it was alleged that Portuguese police had found fluids and hair from Madeleine in the hire car.
Leaked reports claimed bodily fluids and blonde hairs apparently belonging to Maddie had been found in the Renault, leading to speculation that they used the car to move her corpse weeks later.
Proven
But a source close to the forensic inquiry insisted yestereday: "The testing carried out so far remains inconclusive. There are no complete DNA profiles that could implicate the McCanns.
"Tests are still underway and if they come to the same conclusion the case against the McCanns will collapse."
As the argument raged, investigator Krugel told us he had asked for no money or even expenses for his work on the case. "I wanted to assist the McCanns and offered my services," he said.
"We tried to contact the family at the very beginning but unfortunately we didn't get called in until months after Madeleine went missing."
A source close to the McCanns said: "The work of Mr Krugel should not be underestimated and gives great hope to Gerry and Kate.
"Many people have contacted the couple to try to help but while their hearts may be in the right place they just don't have the expertise to be of assistance. But Mr Krugel has a proven record of finding people and his methods are extremely credible.
"The results in Praia da Luz crucially match many other strands of the investigation which all point to Madeleine being abducted and still being alive on that night when she was taken.
"Kate and Gerry just want police to concentrate on this evidence and find Madeleine. It's so frustrating for them.
"It is important to mention Kate and Gerry used Mr Krugel with the full cooperation of Portuguese police. The fact they carried out searches as a result of his work prove his credibility with them.
"Yet sadly they seem to have decided to no longer follow this line of inquiry."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 08:43:09 PM
@Anna “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure."
That press statement was technically true. Because the phonecall was IMO not about any dream, it was about an "awake fear".
IMO the word "nightmare" was probably used in the phonecall, meaning "an awake fear", but misinterpreted by Paiva as "asleep fear".
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 07, 2015, 08:54:31 PM
@Anna “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure."
That press statement was technically true. Because the phonecall was IMO not about any dream, it was about an "awake fear".
IMO the word "nightmare" was probably used in the phonecall, meaning "an awake fear", but misinterpreted by Paiva as "asleep fear".
What was the point of Gerald Mccann standing in front of the cameras and so vehemently denying his wife ever had a dream, he sounded desperate to say so but not sure why and for what purpose.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 10:38:20 PM
What was the point of Gerald Mccann standing in front of the cameras and so vehemently denying his wife ever had a dream, he sounded desperate to say so but not sure why and for what purpose.
Maybe it was a surprise to learn of the phonecall?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 10:42:55 PM
BTW didn't Amaral reportedly claim his colleague recieved another such phonecall a few weeks after this one?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 07, 2015, 10:45:13 PM
BTW didn't Amaral reportedly claim his colleague recieved another such phonecall a few weeks after this one?
Do you mean the one about request for testing for drugs? Which apparently Gerald Mccann rang back and cancelled?Does he sound like a control freak to you?He does to me.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 07, 2015, 10:56:26 PM
" ... was alone when she called ... " http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html ETA scroll down to Amsterdam 05 May 2009
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 07, 2015, 11:02:56 PM
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 07, 2015, 11:58:59 PM
8)--)) .....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 08, 2015, 12:19:44 AM
I don't see anything wrong in phoning up the PJ liaison officer to urge them to search that hillside. It's completely understandable just after the shock of the Krugel report's "static" conclusion. And going up there and experiencing the dogs. And the lady over the road seeing a vehicle driving up that hillside that night. In that situation ! would have made the same phonecall.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 08, 2015, 12:36:42 AM
Maybe the public needs a new interview OF the Mccanns to tidy up loose ends, then again about as likely as the Titanic never sinking
If specific questions about cadaver dog alerts in their apartment get answered with "I believe most people are good people" what hope is there ever of a straight answer to a straight question
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 08, 2015, 12:42:52 AM
But Mercury both individuals must have already been seperately fully interviewed by SY.
If you say so but theres no evidence they have been, besides, any such interview cannot possibly entail all questions that could be put to them unless SY have watched every tv interview and read all other interviews, 10 million quid or not
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 08, 2015, 01:35:18 AM
If you say so but theres no evidence they have been, besides, any such interview cannot possibly entail all questions that could be put to them unless SY have watched every tv interview and read all other interviews, 10 million quid or not
IMO it is impossible that SY would spend millions and not bother to fully and properly interview seperately the two most important witnesses in great detail.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 08, 2015, 01:41:11 AM
IMO it is impossible that SY would spend millions and not bother to fully and properly interview seperately the two most important witnesses in great detail.
No not really, depends on the remit!!
Besides, as I said, SY cannot have listened to and watched everything
Then again, perhaps they didnt need to, who knows hey?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 06:44:35 AM
@Anna “I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure."
That press statement was technically true. Because the phonecall was IMO not about any dream, it was about an "awake fear".
IMO the word "nightmare" was probably used in the phonecall, meaning "an awake fear", but misinterpreted by Paiva as "asleep fear".
That makes sense. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 08, 2015, 10:50:15 AM
It would make sense if that's what was said. However it wasn't and you can't simply exchange what was said with what you believe fits better.
Do you know what was actually said? If so, perhaps you could tell the rest of us. We are simply trying to make sense of something that Paiva doesn't appear to have explained in context, or otherwise.
Personally, I like his "Dream" Statement. He made himself look like a right prat.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 08, 2015, 11:11:04 AM
Do you know what was actually said? If so, perhaps you could tell the rest of us. We are simply trying to make sense of something that Paiva doesn't appear to have explained in context, or otherwise.
Personally, I like his "Dream" Statement. He made himself look like a right prat.
I know exactly what you know and that is what was said in court. Tempting as it is to put your own spin on it Pavia knew exactly what Kate told him, context and all. Whether you or anyone else feel that this was an absurd reason to change the investigation's direction is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 11:23:40 AM
I know exactly what you know and that is what was said in court. Tempting as it is to put your own spin on it Pavia knew exactly what Kate told him, context and all. Whether you or anyone else feel that this was an absurd reason to change the investigation's direction is another matter entirely.
What Paiva said was Hearsay. He has no proof of what Kate actually said. Kindly put, I think he misunderstood. But as I said, can you produce proof of what Kate said?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 08, 2015, 11:31:32 AM
What Paiva said was Hearsay. He has no proof of what Kate actually said. Kindly put, I think he misunderstood. But as I said, can you produce proof of what Kate said?
I think you misunderstand what hearsay means Eleanor. Pavia received a direct call from Kate. He wasn't told about it by a third party so how in heaven's name can it be hearsay ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 11:38:54 AM
I think you misunderstand what hearsay means Eleanor. Pavia received a direct call from Kate. He wasn't told about it by a third party so how in heaven's name can it be hearsay ?
I don't think so, Faith. He said Kate said. That is Hearsay.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2015, 12:21:10 PM
I think you misunderstand what hearsay means Eleanor. Pavia received a direct call from Kate. He wasn't told about it by a third party so how in heaven's name can it be hearsay ?
I'd be interested in JP's view.
For the moment, I think that Eleanor is correct - i.e., that it's hearsay.
Not that Paiva heard it from a different party, but that there was no direct proof presented as to what Kate is alleged to have said. If the phone conversation had been recorded, or an email / fax / letter presented, then that would presumably have counted as substantiated evidence. Not that this was a criminal court case anyway.
I've never understood the big deal about it. So what if Kate had had a nightmare that her child could have been dumped in x, y or z location? She could have had a nightmare about a masked pygmy or an alien abduction... what was being read into this?
There's ample room for a "misunderstanding" about a dream / nightmare / some psychic's vision / a potentially inadequately investigated possibility... whatever.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2015, 12:32:39 PM
What Paiva said was Hearsay. He has no proof of what Kate actually said. Kindly put, I think he misunderstood. But as I said, can you produce proof of what Kate said?
This doesn't cover hearsay evidence in PT...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay
However, an interesting aspect is that Amaral's blur over when he was actually present - and his rudimentary understanding of English anyway - would make many of his assertions double-hearsay, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 12:46:18 PM
However, an interesting aspect is that Amaral's blur over when he was actually present - and his rudimentary understanding of English anyway - would make many of his assertions double-hearsay, wouldn't it?
"Legal Burden of Proof" just about covers it. Hearsay notwithstanding. Paiva said that Kate said, but he never said what Kate actually said.
And No, it isn't actually important.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 08, 2015, 04:13:30 PM
Agreed. What is interesting however is Gerry so vehemently denied that Kate had had a dream
Because she didn't? Or even say such to Paiva?
Paiva attempted to put this across as Guilt because Kate had killed Madeleine. What did you expect Gerry to say just after he had heard this bizarre revelation in Court? Which everyone else had heard.
Paiva is a plonker if he thinks guilt can be established on a dream. Hardly a scientific conclusion, is it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 08, 2015, 04:32:19 PM
Paiva attempted to put this across as Guilt because Kate had killed Madeleine. What did you expect Gerry to say just after he had heard this bizarre revelation in Court? Which everyone else had heard.
Paiva is a plonker if he thinks guilt can be established on a dream. Hardly a scientific conclusion, is it.
Do you think Pavia is lying Eleanor ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 04:45:23 PM
How can I possibly answer that? I don't know what was in his stupid head to make him say such a stupid thing to leave himself looking so stupid. He is probably just stupid.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 08, 2015, 07:34:31 PM
How can I possibly answer that? I don't know what was in his stupid head to make him say such a stupid thing to leave himself looking so stupid. He is probably just stupid.
And you know it wasn't true because........ ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 08, 2015, 07:41:00 PM
Because Gerry said so. And because I believe him. Can you prove otherwise?
Has Kate denied it ? I seem to remember Gerry was in Washington when the call was made. Can you be sure that Gerry even knew about the phone call before he heard about it in court ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 08, 2015, 11:40:12 PM
Has Kate denied it ? I seem to remember Gerry was in Washington when the call was made. Can you be sure that Gerry even knew about the phone call before he heard about it in court ?
Precisely Faithlilly. Call was made solo by one individual while other individual away.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 09, 2015, 09:23:28 AM
This is exactly what Gerry said
“I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.”
Note the inclusion of the word "buried". It's important (in the context of this daft thread).
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: G-Unit on August 09, 2015, 09:29:21 AM
“I’d like to make it absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere, and I don’t know if something’s been lost in interpretation, but that didn’t happen – not with those words, that’s for sure.”
Note the inclusion of the word "buried". It's important (in the context of this daft thread).
Note what he is denying. He's not denying a dream, he's denying 'a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere'.
I wonder what 'not with those words' meant? With other words?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 09, 2015, 10:15:25 AM
Note what he is denying. He's not denying a dream, he's denying 'a dream that Maddie has been buried somewhere'.
I wonder what 'not with those words' meant? With other words?
The clue is in the thread title G. Kate dreamed that Madeleine was on a hillside NOT that she was dead and buried somewhere - which some people have claimed she said.
It's not unusual for grief-stricken people to have vivid dreams about their lost loved ones which seem incredibly real at the time.
IMO the actual words are unimportant, it's the fact that grown-up policemen would actually sit there and decide that a DREAM was a turning point in ANY police investigation which is so jaw-dropping.
Can you imagine any UK police officers making such a claim? I certainly can't and I'd seriously be questioning their professionalism if they did.
Don't you agree?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2015, 12:38:25 PM
The clue is in the thread title G. Kate dreamed that Madeleine was on a hillside NOT that she was dead and buried somewhere - which some people have claimed she said.
It's not unusual for grief-stricken people to have vivid dreams about their lost loved ones which seem incredibly real at the time.
IMO the actual words are unimportant, it's the fact that grown-up policemen would actually sit there and decide that a DREAM was a turning point in ANY police investigation which is so jaw-dropping.
Can you imagine any UK police officers making such a claim? I certainly can't and I'd seriously be questioning their professionalism if they did.
Don't you agree?
8((()*/ Excellent logic. Post of the week?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 09, 2015, 01:41:23 PM
The clue is in the thread title G. Kate dreamed that Madeleine was on a hillside NOT that she was dead and buried somewhere - which some people have claimed she said.
It's not unusual for grief-stricken people to have vivid dreams about their lost loved ones which seem incredibly real at the time.
IMO the actual words are unimportant, it's the fact that grown-up policemen would actually sit there and decide that a DREAM was a turning point in ANY police investigation which is so jaw-dropping.
Can you imagine any UK police officers making such a claim? I certainly can't and I'd seriously be questioning their professionalism if they did.
Don't you agree?
Intense dreams could well be a sign of a guilty conscience.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on August 09, 2015, 01:50:01 PM
Intense dreams could well be a sign of a guilty conscience.
I have very realistic dreams, Stephen. I always have done. Even now I can wake up crying, confused and calling out. I can't think why I should have a guilty conscience................Unless its all these expensive chocolates that I eat....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 09, 2015, 01:52:25 PM
I have very realistic dreams, Stephen. I always have done. Even now I can wake up crying, confused and calling out. I can't think why I should have a guilty conscience................Unless its all these expensive chocolates that I eat....
The price of those are enough to disturb your sleep Anna 8(0(*
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on August 09, 2015, 02:11:45 PM
I have very realistic dreams, Stephen. I always have done. Even now I can wake up crying, confused and calling out. I can't think why I should have a guilty conscience................Unless its all these expensive chocolates that I eat....
No Anna, chocolate contains a compound with a slightly different effect. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2015, 02:59:59 PM
No Anna, chocolate contains a compound with a slightly different effect. 8(0(*
No, I am not overweight @)(++(*….Never have been and never will be, Stephen.
I will often rather have chocolate than a meal nowadays, but I do feel a wee bit guilty, of the cost to my loved ones. Nightmares are often due to worry and stress, which I believe Kate must have been suffering. Also they can be due to over-concern for others and stories of horror.
Back to the supposed dream. Can anyone prove that she ever had such a dream and more to the point. Did she actually say this to Paiva, or was it all just a misunderstanding?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 09, 2015, 05:25:37 PM
No, I am not overweight @)(++(*….Never have been and never will be, Stephen.
I will often rather have chocolate than a meal nowadays, but I do feel a wee bit guilty, of the cost to my loved ones. Nightmares are often due to worry and stress, which I believe Kate must have been suffering. Also they can be due to over-concern for others and stories of horror.
Back to the supposed dream. Can anyone prove that she ever had such a dream and more to the point. Did she actually say this to Paiva, or was it all just a misunderstanding?
I wasn't referring to being overweight Anna.
Just to one specific ingredient in chocolate.
Let's just say it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 09, 2015, 05:48:02 PM
Intense dreams could well be a sign of a guilty conscience.
What if the dream was that Madeleine had been left alive on a hillside by her abductors - and was caused by her mother's intense longing for her return?
What is your opinion of a dream being viewed as being of such major importance by the police team in charge - that it was regarded as a turning point in the case? Would you regard that as professional behaviour?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 05:51:58 PM
I thnk it is very possible that somethng was lost in translation and rather than saying a dream caused the investigation to change direction, IMO any reference made was about the time, whch was, from around mid July onwards when Harrison and Grime were brought in
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 09, 2015, 06:48:34 PM
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
“She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
The dream was the turning point, according to Paiva. How bloody absurd.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 09, 2015, 06:49:54 PM
I thnk it is very possible that somethng was lost in translation and rather than saying a dream caused the investigation to change direction, IMO any reference made was about the time, whch was, from around mid July onwards when Harrison and Grime were brought in
According to the opening post by "Faithlilly" nothing could possibly be lost in translation as Paiva speaks perfect English!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 09, 2015, 06:53:20 PM
According to the opening post by "Faithlilly" nothing could possibly be lost in translation as Paiva speaks perfect English!
Was he speaking English in court? How can you be certain of what he actually meant? You can't.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Anna on August 09, 2015, 07:13:02 PM
My apologies if it has already been posted
By Fiona Govan in Lisbon
7:30AM GMT 13 Jan 2010
Police Inspector Ricardo Paiva, who acted as a liaison between the McCanns and Portuguese detectives in the days following their daughter’s disappearance, said the dream was a "turning point" in the investigation.
He said that Mrs McCann told him in a tearful telephone conversation in late July 2007 that she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that police should search for her there.
The claims came as Kate and Gerry McCann appeared in court to hear evidence on the first day of a hearing to challenge the publication of a book written by Algarve detective Goncalo Amaral.
Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying. “She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there. “She gave the impression that she thought she was dead – it was a turning point for us.”
The senior detective said the land was searched but nothing was found. “That is when we decided to send the specialist dogs in. British police informed us about how they could detect the scent of death.”
He admitted that the police had been suspicious of the McCanns from the start of the investigation.
Insp Paiva added: “They disobeyed our request to keep quiet about the details of their daughter’s disappearance while we conducted our investigation. Instead they turned it into a media circus and that gave rise to some suspicions.”
He said that the McCanns should have faced prosecution for leaving their children alone. “They should have been pursued for neglect. People have been arrested for far less – even in the UK.”
The court also heard claims that Madeleine died in an accident in her family's Algarve holiday apartment and her death was covered up by her parents who then concocted a tale of kidnap.
“She died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children,” Tavares de Almeida, former chief inspector at Portimao police station during the initial months of the investigation, told the court in Lisbon.
“These were the conclusions of a police report signed by me on September 10 2007,” he added.
Lawyers for Amaral, who led the team that made the McCanns arguidos – suspects – in their daughter’s disappearance, called witnesses to support the claims outlined in his book. The McCanns arguido status was lifted after ten months in July 2008 when the Attorney General ruled there was no evidence against them.
The pair, from Rothley, Leics, came face to face with their detractor for the first time since they were officially made argiuidos in September 2007, four months after they daughter vanished days before her fourth birthday.
Mr Amaral, 50, led the initial investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance from a holiday apartment in Praia da Luz on May 3 2007 while her parents dined with friends at a tapas bar nearby. He was sacked from the case, which remains unsolved.
His book, entitled “The Truth of The Lie”, published in July 2008 claims that Madeleine died in the apartment and questions her parents’ account of events that evening.
It became a best-seller in Portugal selling more than 200,000 copies and went on to be published in six languages and made into a documentary film.
After a year long campaign the McCanns succeeded in getting a temporary injunction banning further sales and it was withdrawn from shelves last September. The couple are suing for libel becuase they believe that the book is damaging the search for their daughter by asserting that she is already dead.
They are expected to ask a judge for around £1 million in damages which they will use to pay for their own continuing hunt for their daughter, who they believe was kidnapped and could still be alive and being held somewhere.
Mr de Almeida told the court: “We have always spoken of a tragic accidental death – not homicide. The McCanns did not kill her but they concealed the body,”
Mr de Almeida, who worked under Amaral and was also taken off the case in September 2007, said the decision to designate the McCanns 'arguidos' was made by police after sniffer dogs brought to Portugal from England had carried out their searches.
Giving evidence, Mr de Almeida said that the dogs had identified blood and the scent of a human corpse inside the children's’ bedroom and the dining room of the McCanns’ holiday flat.
The animals also reacted to traces on a piece of cloth in a villa rented by the McCanns after they left the apartment and in the boot of a rental car hired by the family several weeks after Madeleine disappeared.
Mr de Almeida also complained that Portuguese police efforts to investigate the McCanns had been frustrated by their British counterparts. “We were told that the UK would not accept any investigation of the McCanns – there was a lack of co-operation,” he said.
But later he said that the theory that the parents had covered up Madeleine’s death as outlined in Amaral’s book was one reached by British police on the ground in Portugal too.
“This wasn’t something invented by Amaral,” he insisted. “It was a conclusion reached by the team of Portuguese investigators as well as British police.”
Mrs McCann wearing a dark coloured floral dress sat impassively in the front row of the court room beside her husband. The pair held hands and exchanged occasional whispers and nods as they were passed notes by interpreters informing them of court proceedings, which were carried out in Portuguese.
Mr Amaral, dressed in a dark suit and purple tie, was seated at the bench beside his legal team, fifteen feet away from the couple. He spent much of the proceedings with his eyes closed avoiding the direct gaze of the McCanns.
Tuesday’s court hearing in the Portuguese capital was an opportunity by Mr Amaral to have the temporary injunction against publication of his book overturned. Neither he nor the McCanns will be called to give evidence in the hearing which is expected to last a minimum of three days.
Was he speaking English in court? How can you be certain of what he actually meant? You can't.
Ask Faithlilly, she has all the answers.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 09, 2015, 07:37:25 PM
If the dream was in no way significant to Paiva then why was it even mentioned in court?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 07:39:19 PM
Thanks Anna, although Ms Govan shows she hasn't done her research that thoroughly and dropped qute a few errors in that report. Fancy that, for a journo working for a broadsheet!
Going back to why Gerry Mccann was so annoyed when he made that statement outside of court about Kate's dream, IMO it was probably to take away the idea that there was any belief by them that Madeleine was dead, seeing as they had said in every interview they believed the opposite.
Bit of an unnecessary overkill though, as in, the man protesteth too much?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 09, 2015, 07:40:22 PM
You will have a link then to Paivas recounting in the files then? Do share,as Ive not come across it.
No I don't have it. I suspect the Telegraph completely made the whole thing up about the dream just to make him look like a complete idiot. Is that the correct answer?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 10:40:38 PM
No I don't have it. I suspect the Telegraph completely made the whole thing up about the dream just to make him look like a complete idiot. Is that the correct answer?
Its the wrong answer as you brought up the files and what has the telegraph has got to do with the files I have no idea
@)(++(*
Lets doubt what is reported in the files you said
Where??
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 10, 2015, 08:51:30 AM
Its the wrong answer as you brought up the files and what has the telegraph has got to do with the files I have no idea
@)(++(*
Lets doubt what is reported in the files you said
Where??
If you believe in the principle that something can be lost in translation, then surely this possibility applies to everything ever reported, whether by journalists, or policemen, yes?
But tell me Mercury, do you think the Telegrapgh went so far as to actually misunderstand or mistranslate a reference to Kate's dream in court? Do you think it was never even brought up by Paiva? What bonafide' reasonable explanation can there be for referencing a dream as evidence or explanation of anything at all, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 10, 2015, 09:06:20 AM
Thanks Anna, although Ms Govan shows she hasn't done her research that thoroughly and dropped qute a few errors in that report. Fancy that, for a journo working for a broadsheet!
Going back to why Gerry Mccann was so annoyed when he made that statement outside of court about Kate's dream, IMO it was probably to take away the idea that there was any belief by them that Madeleine was dead, seeing as they had said in every interview they believed the opposite.
Bit of an unnecessary overkill though, as in, the man protesteth too much?
AFAIK - he made one short comment about the dream and has never made another one. That's hardly 'overkill' is it? He was correcting any idea that Kate had said she had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried somewhere. That was not true - and that was what he told the press.
I see nothing to criticise in that.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 10, 2015, 09:14:54 AM
AFAIK - he made one short comment about the dream and has never made another one. That's hardly 'overkill' is it? He was correcting any idea that Kate had said she had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried somewhere. That was not true - and that was what he told the press.
I see nothing to criticise in that.
the fact that it was a statement made by Gerry McCann means that it is ripe for criticism, whatever he said!!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 10, 2015, 09:30:00 AM
the fact that it was a statement made by Gerry McCann means that it is ripe for criticism, whatever he said!!
LOL I'd actually typed something similar at the end of my post - but then deleted it.
Having looked at the video again - I still can't see why some folk can claim he was 'SO annoyed' - or in fact claim that he was 'annoyed' at all! What have I missed?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 10, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
LOL I'd actually typed something similar at the end of my post - but then deleted it.
Having looked at the video again - I still can't see why some folk can claim he was 'SO annoyed' - or in fact claim that he was 'annoyed' at all! What have I missed?
How about merely stating the obvious, which some try to deny ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 10, 2015, 09:50:53 AM
How about merely stating the obvious, which some try to deny ?
You've lost me Stephen - care to elaborate on what Gerry said about the dream? What is it that is 'obvious' to you that others have missed? Or could you point out where he shows his extreme annoyance in the video? I've missed that too.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 10, 2015, 09:58:13 AM
LOL I'd actually typed something similar at the end of my post - but then deleted it.
Having looked at the video again - I still can't see why some folk can claim he was 'SO annoyed' - or in fact claim that he was 'annoyed' at all! What have I missed?
It's interesting that we have two "sceptics" view of this story, both of which differ substantially about what was said but both of whom believe it amounts to the same thing anyway - McCanns = guilty as sin. There's no reason or logic involved in this McCann bashing, at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 10, 2015, 10:15:47 AM
You've lost me Stephen - care to elaborate on what Gerry said about the dream? What is it that is 'obvious' to you that others have missed? Or could you point out where he shows his extreme annoyance in the video? I've missed that too.
Non-verbal communication. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 10, 2015, 10:16:59 AM
It's interesting that we have two "sceptics" view of this story, both of which differ substantially about what was said but both of whom believe it amounts to the same thing anyway - McCanns = guilty as sin. There's no reason or logic involved in this McCann bashing, at the end of the day.
Is that in your 'rational' opinion ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 10, 2015, 10:32:20 AM
the fact that it was a statement made by Gerry McCann means that it is ripe for criticism, whatever he said!!
I notice he didn't correct the report read out in court by Lee Rainbow saying that because of the contradictions in Gerry McCann's statements homicide should be considered. Duarte would also have had access to this report and if the advice was really as generic as some supporters would have us believe why did Gerry not contest it on the courthouse steps as he did the dream evidence ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 11:09:05 AM
I notice he didn't correct the report read out in court by Lee Rainbow saying that because of the contradictions in Gerry McCann's statements homicide should be considered. Duarte would also have had access to this report and if the advice was really as generic as some supporters would have us believe why did Gerry not contest it on the courthouse steps as he did the dream evidence ?
there is that much that is incorrect he addressed the most important...I don't believe rainbow made reference to any contradictions.....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 10, 2015, 11:16:23 AM
I notice he didn't correct the report read out in court by Lee Rainbow saying that because of the contradictions in Gerry McCann's statements homicide should be considered. Duarte would also have had access to this report and if the advice was really as generic as some supporters would have us believe why did Gerry not contest it on the courthouse steps as he did the dream evidence ?
He wasn't there to give chapter and verse about everything said in court or he would have been there all day. IMO he would mention the dream because it was claimed to have been a turning point in the case. That's a pretty hefty claim for the police to make.
Not only are the McCanns criticised for every word they do speak - they are now being criticised for things they didn't say!
Damned if they do and damned if they don't - every single step of the way.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
I notice he didn't correct the report read out in court by Lee Rainbow saying that because of the contradictions in Gerry McCann's statements homicide should be considered. Duarte would also have had access to this report and if the advice was really as generic as some supporters would have us believe why did Gerry not contest it on the courthouse steps as he did the dream evidence ?
I don't believe rainbow said that because it isn't true and Rainbow...unlike amaral knows what he is talking about. The McCanns should have been investigated...full stop...no reasons......that's good policing and that is what rainbow said...the rest was an add on by amaral's solicitor
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 10, 2015, 11:46:15 AM
He wasn't there to give chapter and verse about everything said in court or he would have been there all day. IMO he would mention the dream because it was claimed to have been a turning point in the case. That's a pretty hefty claim for the police to make.
Not only are the McCanns criticised for every word they do speak - they are now being criticised for things they didn't say!
Damned if they do and damned if they don't - every single step of the way.
Lee Rainbow's report was also described as a turning point.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 12:00:13 PM
Lee Rainbow's report was also described as a turning point.
I'm not at all knowledgeable about Lee Rainbow Faith. This is all I can find on the Rainbow report. Is there more plz?
Quote The potential involvement of the family in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be discarded, and it can be considered that, when pondering the basis for research, this hypothesis deserves as much attention as the criminal with sexual motivations that has been previously prioritised.
“It should be stressed that there is no evidence to directly support an involvement of the family, yet given the absence of decisive evidence to prove the contrary, such a scenario has to be explored.” At court last week, Mr Amaral’s lawyer, Antonio Cabrita, read out a section of 37-year-old Mr Rainbow’s report which said: “The family is a lead that should be followed.” Unquote
I understand this report was submitted a couple of months after Madeleine's disappearance (July 2007?)
Apart from recommending that the family should be investigated - which is normal procedure anyway - in order to rule them in or out - I cannot see anything which would denote his report would be regarded as a turning point in the case.
What is in the report which the PJ didn't already know about and came as such big news to them that it put a whole new complexion on the case?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 12:48:16 PM
The last person to see a missing person in a possible homicide case is always investigated very closely because they are usually involved in it. So it's no surprise Lee Rainbow looked at Gerry as he claims to be the last witness. As soon as he saw contradictions in his statements he becomes a possible prime suspect like Smithman now is.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 01:21:22 PM
I'm not at all knowledgeable about Lee Rainbow Faith. This is all I can find on the Rainbow report. Is there more plz?
Quote The potential involvement of the family in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be discarded, and it can be considered that, when pondering the basis for research, this hypothesis deserves as much attention as the criminal with sexual motivations that has been previously prioritised.
“It should be stressed that there is no evidence to directly support an involvement of the family, yet given the absence of decisive evidence to prove the contrary, such a scenario has to be explored.” At court last week, Mr Amaral’s lawyer, Antonio Cabrita, read out a section of 37-year-old Mr Rainbow’s report which said: “The family is a lead that should be followed.” Unquote
I understand this report was submitted a couple of months after Madeleine's disappearance (July 2007?)
Apart from recommending that the family should be investigated - which is normal procedure anyway - in order to rule them in or out - I cannot see anything which would denote his report would be regarded as a turning point in the case.
What is in the report which the PJ didn't already know about and came as such big news to them that it put a whole new complexion on the case?
There's never any witnesses to what happens behind closed doors. Remember that important point. You have to get evidence in other ways e.g. from statements, dogs, forensics etc.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 01:42:02 PM
There's never any witnesses to what happens behind closed doors. Remember that important point. You have to get evidence in other ways e.g. from statements, dogs, forensics etc.
Mccann statements are non arguido and therefore can't be used in court Dogs alerts can't be used in court No forensic evidence
That's about it
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 10, 2015, 02:15:48 PM
I'm not at all knowledgeable about Lee Rainbow Faith. This is all I can find on the Rainbow report. Is there more plz?
Quote The potential involvement of the family in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be discarded, and it can be considered that, when pondering the basis for research, this hypothesis deserves as much attention as the criminal with sexual motivations that has been previously prioritised.
“It should be stressed that there is no evidence to directly support an involvement of the family, yet given the absence of decisive evidence to prove the contrary, such a scenario has to be explored.” At court last week, Mr Amaral’s lawyer, Antonio Cabrita, read out a section of 37-year-old Mr Rainbow’s report which said: “The family is a lead that should be followed.” Unquote
I understand this report was submitted a couple of months after Madeleine's disappearance (July 2007?)
Apart from recommending that the family should be investigated - which is normal procedure anyway - in order to rule them in or out - I cannot see anything which would denote his report would be regarded as a turning point in the case.
What is in the report which the PJ didn't already know about and came as such big news to them that it put a whole new complexion on the case?
"His lawyer Antonio Cabrita, reading from a Portuguese translation of the previously- confidential report, said: 'The family is a lead that should be followed.
The McCanns want Gonzolo Amaral (pictured yesterday) to be legally barred from accusing them of being involved in Madeleine's disappearance 'The contradictions in Gerald McCann's statement might lead us to suspect a homicide. This is a lead that should be investigated.'
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 02:31:34 PM
I'm not at all knowledgeable about Lee Rainbow Faith. This is all I can find on the Rainbow report. Is there more plz?
Quote The potential involvement of the family in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann cannot be discarded, and it can be considered that, when pondering the basis for research, this hypothesis deserves as much attention as the criminal with sexual motivations that has been previously prioritised.
“It should be stressed that there is no evidence to directly support an involvement of the family, yet given the absence of decisive evidence to prove the contrary, such a scenario has to be explored.” At court last week, Mr Amaral’s lawyer, Antonio Cabrita, read out a section of 37-year-old Mr Rainbow’s report which said: “The family is a lead that should be followed.” Unquote
I understand this report was submitted a couple of months after Madeleine's disappearance (July 2007?)
Apart from recommending that the family should be investigated - which is normal procedure anyway - in order to rule them in or out - I cannot see anything which would denote his report would be regarded as a turning point in the case.
What is in the report which the PJ didn't already know about and came as such big news to them that it put a whole new complexion on the case?
Just another example of the mindset which seemed to govern the incompetent manner in which Madeleine McCann's case was conducted.
A dream is described as a 'turning point'. Generic information on how to conduct the inquiry is misinterpreted to become another 'turning point' to justify suspicions against her parents ... which we are told had been held from the first day of the inquiry.
The requirement to supply advice on standard police procedures would imply that Portugal had no equivalent at that time. I can't quite take that on board ... I think the local situation which was very sensitive was known and this was the way chosen to sort it out in a diplomatic manner. They obviously really had no idea about just how obtuse their opposite numbers were.
The advice was misconstrued at the relevant time when it could have been useful to progress the investigation. That is compounded by the continued lack of comprehension which led to it being produced in court with probably the addition of an opinion not Lee Rainbow's to boot.
A disaster from start to finish. If the names were changed to Smith and Jones with the venue changed to Brighton ... one wonders if people would have dug deep over the years to defend ex Chief Inspector Smith's sense of his own importance and honour.
Quote A spokesman said last night: 'In disappearance cases it is common for the NPIA to advise officers to consider the possibility of the involvement of family and close friends. 'This is good practice for investigating cases. The NPIA gave similar generic advice to Portuguese police.'
Just another example of the mindset which seemed to govern the incompetent manner in which Madeleine McCann's case was conducted.
A dream is described as a 'turning point'. Generic information on how to conduct the inquiry is misinterpreted to become another 'turning point' to justify suspicions against her parents ... which we are told had been held from the first day of the inquiry.
The requirement to supply advice on standard police procedures would imply that Portugal had no equivalent at that time. I can't quite take that on board ... I think the local situation which was very sensitive was known and this was the way chosen to sort it out in a diplomatic manner. They obviously really had no idea about just how obtuse their opposite numbers were.
The advice was misconstrued at the relevant time when it could have been useful to progress the investigation. That is compounded by the continued lack of comprehension which led to it being produced in court with probably the addition of an opinion not Lee Rainbow's to boot.
A disaster from start to finish. If the names were changed to Smith and Jones with the venue changed to Brighton ... one wonders if people would have dug deep over the years to defend ex Chief Inspector Smith's sense of his own importance and honour.
Quote A spokesman said last night: 'In disappearance cases it is common for the NPIA to advise officers to consider the possibility of the involvement of family and close friends. 'This is good practice for investigating cases. The NPIA gave similar generic advice to Portuguese police.'
Interesting piece of deflection there Brietta ! "led to it being produced in court with probably the addition of an opinion not Lee Rainbow's to boot." Not what the evidence says.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 04:22:23 PM
Interesting piece of deflection there Brietta ! "led to it being produced in court with probably the addition of an opinion not Lee Rainbow's to boot." Not what the evidence says.
Your evidence is an article in the mail....which is still clIming Jason Button was gassed...... What was the source for this article....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 05:28:29 PM
You seem to have missed the statement containing these words "now possesses arguido status".
He affirms that his wife never gave him to understand that at some time she had the intention of giving Madeleine into the care of a family member. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Asked if she is aware that her failure to respond to the questions put in the cause of the investigation, which seeks to know what happened to her daughter, she replied that yes, if the investigation so thinks. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_07-09-07.htm
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 05:30:07 PM
He affirms that his wife never gave him to understand that at some time she had the intention of giving Madeleine into the care of a family member. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm
Asked if she is aware that her failure to respond to the questions put in the cause of the investigation, which seeks to know what happened to her daughter, she replied that yes, if the investigation so thinks. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_07-09-07.htm
Everything else non arguido
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 05:38:19 PM
There are many contradictions and all statements were signed. There are many other recorded interviews with them, other witness statements and evidence.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 05:56:20 PM
There are many contradictions and all statements were signed. There are many other recorded interviews with them, other witness statements and evidence.
Arguido is like being cautioned None of those statements could be used in court The archiving report said there was no evidence of a crime by the mccanns
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 06:08:06 PM
Arguido is like being cautioned None of those statements could be used in court The archiving report said there was no evidence of a crime by the mccanns
All evidence can be used in a circumstantial evidence case but you only have one shot so it is last resort.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 06:13:29 PM
But at the beginning of the arguido statement, is "He fully confirms the contents of the statements that he has previously given..."
does he say that...or does he say this... He confirms all of what was stated previously to the Police on two occasions, and has nothing further to add.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 10, 2015, 06:52:04 PM
does he say that...or does he say this... He confirms all of what was stated previously to the Police on two occasions, and has nothing further to add.
Csan you provide a cite for that ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 07:03:48 PM
At least we've progressed from the incorrect idea that none of his statements were arguido. But back on topic - the parents first learned of Krugel's opinion, that the child was likely to be deceased, and predicting the area of concealment, towards the end of a meeting with police on 18th July. They went running in Krugel's highlighted area on the 20th, and she ran there again on the 23rd, and also on 23rd wrote of fear about this area. IMO the phonecall to Paiva was probably late 23rd?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 07:14:50 PM
At least we've progressed from the incorrect idea that none of his statements were arguido. But back on topic - the parents first learned of Krugel's opinion, that the child was likely to be deceased, and predicting the area of concealment, towards the end of a meeting with police on 18th July. They went running in Krugel's highlighted area on the 20th, and she ran there again on the 23rd, and also on 23rd wrote of fear about this area. IMO the phonecall to Paiva was probably late 23rd?
I never said none of the statements were arguido.....none were apart from Gerry's final one...please get your facts right re my posts
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 07:15:13 PM
Interesting piece of deflection there Brietta ! "led to it being produced in court with probably the addition of an opinion not Lee Rainbow's to boot." Not what the evidence says.
According to Mercury we can consider the likelihood of something lost in translation in these newspaper reports, so I really wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 10, 2015, 07:20:33 PM
According to Mercury we can consider the likelihood of something lost in translation in these newspaper reports, so I really wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. @)(++(*
You do know Mercury and I aren't the same person, don't you ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 07:49:46 PM
According to Mercury we can consider the likelihood of something lost in translation in these newspaper reports, so I really wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. @)(++(*
That is not what I said, so please stop misquoting me and continually shifting the goalposts, thanks. (It is possible you don't understand the essence of some of my posts, for that you are forgiven, if true)
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 08:10:05 PM
That is not what I said, so please stop misquoting me and continually shifting the goalposts, thanks. (It is possible you don't understand the essence of some of my posts, for that you are forgiven, if true)
What did you say then, if not that something may have been lost in translation in the reporting of the dream thing?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2015, 09:09:32 PM
I just did. That is what you said. You also asked me how can I be sure what was said in court and if Paiva spoke English. Clearly you believe something was misreported.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:21:34 PM
I just did. That is what you said. You also asked me how can I be sure what was said in court and if Paiva spoke English. Clearly you believe something was misreported.
I said no one can know what Paiva meant when he said there was a turn in the investigation. I believe it is possible that comment related to the whole timeline of July when Krugel, Harrison and Grime were brought in.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 10, 2015, 10:34:28 PM
I said no one can know what Paiva meant when he said there was a turn in the investigation. I believe it is possible that comment related to the whole timeline of July when Krugel, Harrison and Grime were brought in.
Do you believe that the subject of the dream was brought up by Paiva in court and if so why do you think it merited a mention as far as he was concerned?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 10:56:57 PM
They hired Krugel to look for a body before the dream.
'I know where Madeleine is buried' says body finder hired by McCanns
The McCanns turned to him in July to spend a week investigating Madeleine's disappearance after being deluged with emails from members of the public recommending him as a "genius".
He said: "Gerry sent me a strand of Madeleine's hair for DNA purposes, which had been removed from her coat."
Krugel landed in Praia da Luz with his machine on July 17 and embarked on a four day search - with the blessing of Portuguese detectives. He said: "I had a meeting with Kate and Gerry where I explained exactly how my technology works and what I was going to do. "They knew a lot about my work already because people had posted messages about me on the Find Madeleine website. "The police were fully aware of the work I was about to do. "I set off with some colleagues and we conducted an extensive search of Praia da Luz using the machine. "I scoured many different places across the resort and spent time near ports and other exit points in Praia da Luz. "We spent 16 hours a day searching everywhere - nothing was left unsearched."
But under Portuguese law Krugel is forbidden from revealing the exact spot as he has mentioned it in a police statement. But sources close to the investigation told the Sunday Mirror that it is a spot on the beach in Praia da Luz near where Gerry regularly went running. Krugel said: "The technology I use picks up a trace using DNA and complex and secret science techniques. Every day the trace was strongest in this one area. "The machine was highlighting the same co-ordinate and it kept drawing me back there. It left me convinced that Madeleine was there. "My machine has a 90 per cent success rate, so I am convinced this is the place where Madeleine is buried."
Kate heard of a man called Krugel, a former South African army colonel, who had allegedly perfected a machine enabling him to detect the presence of a body. A decomposing body emits particles: if hair from the deceased person is placed in the machine, it detects identical particles. On June 9th, Kate asks friends to go to her home in England to collect some of her daughter's hair and send it to Krugel.
On June 28th, the McCanns request Krugel's presence in the Algarve. They want to make his intervention official and seek the agreement of the PJ. Thanks to Madeleine's hair, the South African allegedly determined a sort of imaginary line that allowed him to state that the body was in the Vila da Luz area. The Portuguese and English police learn, with amazement, about these supposed cutting-edge technologies dedicated to locating bodies. Of course, we knew that such apparatus existed, especially in the United States, but Krugel's mysterious, "machine," leaves us all speechless. Kate and Gerry, they stick to their guns. They saw a television programme in which the effectiveness of Krugel's method was demonstrated, and so are persuaded that the man will be able to move the investigation forward. Without being convinced as to the validity of the method, the police end up acceding to their request. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 11:01:00 PM
Do you believe that the subject of the dream was brought up by Paiva in court and if so why do you think it merited a mention as far as he was concerned?
I don't believe anything, I wasnt there, I have no idea what he was asked, it matters not, the only thing that matters is a)if Madeleine Mccann is dead or alive andb) who is responsible for both scenarios
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 11:14:51 PM
They hired Krugel to look for a body before the dream.
'I know where Madeleine is buried' says body finder hired by McCanns
The McCanns turned to him in July to spend a week investigating Madeleine's disappearance after being deluged with emails from members of the public recommending him as a "genius".
He said: "Gerry sent me a strand of Madeleine's hair for DNA purposes, which had been removed from her coat."
Krugel landed in Praia da Luz with his machine on July 17 and embarked on a four day search - with the blessing of Portuguese detectives. He said: "I had a meeting with Kate and Gerry where I explained exactly how my technology works and what I was going to do. "They knew a lot about my work already because people had posted messages about me on the Find Madeleine website. "The police were fully aware of the work I was about to do. "I set off with some colleagues and we conducted an extensive search of Praia da Luz using the machine. "I scoured many different places across the resort and spent time near ports and other exit points in Praia da Luz. "We spent 16 hours a day searching everywhere - nothing was left unsearched."
But under Portuguese law Krugel is forbidden from revealing the exact spot as he has mentioned it in a police statement. But sources close to the investigation told the Sunday Mirror that it is a spot on the beach in Praia da Luz near where Gerry regularly went running. Krugel said: "The technology I use picks up a trace using DNA and complex and secret science techniques. Every day the trace was strongest in this one area. "The machine was highlighting the same co-ordinate and it kept drawing me back there. It left me convinced that Madeleine was there. "My machine has a 90 per cent success rate, so I am convinced this is the place where Madeleine is buried."
Did they hire Dani Krugel? I was under the impression he did it pro bono.
Quote All services Danie have provided this far have been free off charge. In the majority of cases Danie paid his own travel and accommodation expenses and sacrificed benefits provided by his employer. Unquote http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/
There is no doubt that Mr Krugel advertises his successes in finding living people ... and that is what the Drs McCann are looking for ... their live daughter.
The thought arises though ... if Madeleine's remains have been pin pointed ... why haven't they been retrieved?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 10, 2015, 11:17:34 PM
I don't believe anything, I wasnt there, I have no idea what he was asked, it matters not, the only thing that matters is a)if Madeleine Mccann is dead or alive andb) who is responsible for both scenarios
What a cop out. You have 'no opinion' on why Paiva cited a dream as a major turning point in the case because you know full well it's bloody absurd and you can't bring youself to admit it.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 11:33:50 PM
Did they hire Dani Krugel? I was under the impression he did it pro bono.
Quote All services Danie have provided this far have been free off charge. In the majority of cases Danie paid his own travel and accommodation expenses and sacrificed benefits provided by his employer. Unquote http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/
There is no doubt that Mr Krugel advertises his successes in finding living people ... and that is what the Drs McCann are looking for ... their live daughter.
The thought arises though ... if Madeleine's remains have been pin pointed ... why haven't they been retrieved?
I don't care if they hired but they requested him personally to come and search for a body. A missing child living on the beach or cliffs 3 months later.
Did they hire Dani Krugel? I was under the impression he did it pro bono.
Quote All services Danie have provided this far have been free off charge. In the majority of cases Danie paid his own travel and accommodation expenses and sacrificed benefits provided by his employer. Unquote http://www.daniekrugelfacts.com/
There is no doubt that Mr Krugel advertises his successes in finding living people ... and that is what the Drs McCann are looking for ... their live daughter.
The thought arises though ... if Madeleine's remains have been pin pointed ... why haven't they been retrieved?
Well lets just say the PJ didnt bring him in, the Mccanns did for "some reason"
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2015, 12:04:39 AM
I don't care if they hired but they requested him personally to come and search for a body. A missing child living on the beach or cliffs 3 months later.
The point is that Dani Krugel advertised that he was able to prove success in locating and recovering missing people.
Since Madeleine went missing in Praia da Luz, that would be the obvious starting point to look for her. There is nothing to say she might not have been living in one of the residences in the town or the outskirts.
Madeleine's parents were seeking assistance to find a living child.
You didn't answer my question ... if Mr Krugel's assessment was correct, why has there been no recovery?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on August 11, 2015, 12:06:04 AM
Intimating that the Mccanns must have had a nefarious reason for bringing him in.
Wouldn't you bring in anyone you could that might help if YOUR child was missing? Or wouldn't you bother?
The notion that I intimated something "nefarious" rests only in your imagination. My "some reason" comment merely referred to Krugel's wierd method of placing a missing person's hair into some machine and miraculously finding them! And seeing as the Mccanns are of the scientific bent, I wondered why. OK now? That was all.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2015, 07:43:56 PM
The notion that I intimated something "nefarious" rests only in your imagination. My "some reason" comment merely referred to Krugel's wierd method of placing a missing person's hair into some machine and miraculously finding them! And seeing as the Mccanns are of the scientific bent, I wondered why. OK now? That was all.
Are they of a scientific bent I wonder? They seem very keen on physics and they're not scientifically verifiable.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 08:05:36 PM
Are they of a scientific bent I wonder? They seem very keen on physics and they're not scientifically verifiable.
Why would people of a scientific bent not be keen on physics? 8)--))
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 11, 2015, 11:27:24 PM
IMO anyone with a belief in God is more likely to believe in the ability of psychics than those who don't. So I'm not unduly troubled by Kate turning to psychics - these were desperate times for her after all. Even an avowed atheist such as myself might consider putting my faith in the supernatural for once in similar terrible circumstances.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:46:45 AM
Yes, of course, if you say so...only...it doesn't, but you are free to believe
a belief based on all the evidence I have seen. a belief based on the archiving report which sated there was no evidence of any crime by the McCanns a belief based on the fact Redwood said the McCanns weren't suspects..
pretty conclusive
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 12, 2015, 10:40:19 AM
a belief based on all the evidence I have seen. a belief based on the archiving report which sated there was no evidence of any crime by the McCanns a belief based on the fact Redwood said the McCanns weren't suspects..
pretty conclusive
Most of us have only seen the released files which are "full of translation errors". Have you seen something the rest of us are not party to?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 01:23:50 PM
Yes, I have seen much that many on here have not seen
There are at least two ways in which that statement may be construed. We will take it the lack of precision means you are not party to any documents which not in the public domain.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 04:20:29 PM
There are at least two ways in which that statement may be construed. We will take it the lack of precision means you are not party to any documents which not in the public domain.
He, as usual is trying to impart his belief as facts.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 04:23:21 PM
There are at least two ways in which that statement may be construed. We will take it the lack of precision means you are not party to any documents which not in the public domain.
Two ways it can be construed...yet it is in English...how many ways do you think translations .....several times made.... could be construed
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 12, 2015, 04:25:55 PM
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Carana on August 12, 2015, 06:43:56 PM
There's a man, Richard Glossip, about to be executed in the US next month on the flimsiest of "evidence". Apparently, there's no way of stopping the process.
I guess the McCanns, and the Ciprianos, ought to count themselves lucky that their children didn't disappear in Oklahoma.
As well as any of us, if we had happened to be passing through at around the time the Oklahoma police were scratching whichever part of their anatomy was in charge of the investigation...
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 06:46:38 PM
There's a man, Richard Glossip, about to be executed in the US next month on the flimsiest of "evidence". Apparently, there's no way of stopping the process.
I guess the McCanns, and the Ciprianos, ought to count themselves lucky that their children didn't disappear in Oklahoma.
As well as any of us, if we had happened to be passing through at around the time the Oklahoma police were scratching whichever part of their anatomy was in charge of the investigation...
yet how many posters on here claim that a suspect has nothing to fear if they are innocent...absolute rubbish
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:11:47 PM
The mccanns were never going to be tortured.
They were never offered a deal (illegal in Portuguese Law).
All they had to do was tell the truth, and their version of what happened has yet to be tested in court.
and from the Lisbon Court..................
Gerry McCann in Lisbon court 8 July 2014: "GMC says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood... The judge interrupts him..."
"PROVED FACTS", listed in Lisbon court judgement verdict, 27 April 2015:
"6. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
7. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]."
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 07:24:37 PM
They were never offered a deal (illegal in Portuguese Law).
All they had to do was tell the truth, and their version of what happened has yet to be tested in court.
and from the Lisbon Court..................
Gerry McCann in Lisbon court 8 July 2014: "GMC says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood... The judge interrupts him..."
"PROVED FACTS", listed in Lisbon court judgement verdict, 27 April 2015:
"6. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
7. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]."
Bloody Guides .....
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Carana on August 12, 2015, 07:35:24 PM
I never used to think that of countries that weren't third-world dictatorships... but it seems that I was naive.
The mccanns were investigated as would any parents in these circumstances.
It's called standard practice.
At no time were they under physical threat of torture or anything else.
Then of course this country has cooperated in RENDITION and we know what happens when this occurs....................................
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:35:35 PM
The notion that the Mccanns could have been tortured is too risible to even begin to contemplate on whether to soend any grey cell energy thinking about it
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:46:20 PM
The notion that the Mccanns could have been tortured is too risible to even begin to contemplate on whether to soend any grey cell energy thinking about it
@)(++(*
It is one of the more pathetic claims by those who support the mccanns,
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:47:48 PM
The notion that the Mccanns could have been tortured is too risible to even begin to contemplate on whether to soend any grey cell energy thinking about it
@)(++(*
They were mentally tortured with lies about swingers etc + terrible publicity + many other things , including
..... forcibly trying to pressurize Kate to admit something that she and Gerry hadn't done, by saying that she would only get two years and Gerry could carry on looking after the children at home. Better than both being locked away for years.
..... lieing to Gerry that the dogs had found evidence that a dead Madeleine was carried in the hire car. And telling him that they had proof that he had done it.
Lies and mental torture
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:56:06 PM
They were mentally tortured with lies about swingers etc + terrible publicity + many other things , including
..... forcibly trying to pressurize Kate to admit something that she and Gerry hadn't done, by saying that she would only get two years and Gerry could carry on looking after the children at home. Better than both being locked away for years.
..... lieing to Gerry that the dogs had found evidence that a dead Madeleine was carried in the hire car. And telling him that they had proof that he had done it.
Lies and mental torture
There is no evidence of the PJ doing anything as in your first two paragraphs Your third is just an example of police suspect interview tactics worldwide and to this day The convo was about physical torture, please don't deflect
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 09:00:40 PM
The notion that the Mccanns could have been tortured is too risible to even begin to contemplate on whether to soend any grey cell energy thinking about it
@)(++(*
I haven't seen anyone mention the threat of torture towards the mccanns on here........we are talking about a miscarriage of justice...that is not risible but quite possible
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 09:59:27 PM
I haven't seen anyone mention the threat of torture towards the mccanns on here........we are talking about a miscarriage of justice...that is not risible but quite possible
I have, on reading old threads
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 10:09:36 PM
They were mentally tortured with lies about swingers etc + terrible publicity + many other things , including
..... forcibly trying to pressurize Kate to admit something that she and Gerry hadn't done, by saying that she would only get two years and Gerry could carry on looking after the children at home. Better than both being locked away for years.
..... lieing to Gerry that the dogs had found evidence that a dead Madeleine was carried in the hire car. And telling him that they had proof that he had done it.
Lies and mental torture
If Eddie alerted inside Murat's garage you would be singing a different tune. Where did they accuse them of being swingers in the PJ files? And I don't think Fiona would take her mother...........please shut up Sadie @)(++(*
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 10:22:51 PM
I think you are mistaken....the threat of wrongful arrest and imprisonment was very real
or the fear of rightful arrest! And no I am not mistaken,a few have spoken of the possibility of torture, I just didn't dream it up because I have nothing better to do
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Brietta on August 12, 2015, 10:24:03 PM
If Eddie alerted inside Murat's garage you would be singing a different tune. Where did they accuse them of being swingers in the PJ files? And I don't think Fiona would take her mother...........please shut up Sadie @)(++(*
If a VRD alerted anywhere ... if there was no corroborating evidence to support it ... I would have exactly the same opinion of it that I do of all other uncorroborated alerts.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 12, 2015, 11:23:21 PM
If a VRD alerted anywhere ... if there was no corroborating evidence to support it ... I would have exactly the same opinion of it that I do of all other uncorroborated alerts.
Which is ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 13, 2015, 01:01:09 AM
There is no evidence of the PJ doing anything as in your first two paragraphs Your third is just an example of police suspect interview tactics worldwide and to this day The convo was about physical torture, please don't deflect
This Thread is about Ricardo Paiva, Kate had a dream. Please get back On Topic.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 01:24:11 AM
This Thread is about Ricardo Paiva, Kate had a dream. Please get back On Topic.
And the reason you picked on my post was?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 03:52:59 PM
Even if Kate HAD rung Paiva to discuss a dream (which I find unlikely), is this any more significant than Amaral assuming that Leonor must have been sending a subiminal message when she wore a black top on a TV appeal?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 13, 2015, 06:10:40 PM
Even if Kate HAD rung Paiva to discuss a dream (which I find unlikely), is this any more significant than Amaral assuming that Leonor must have been sending a subiminal message when she wore a black top on a TV appeal?
Why do you find it unlikely ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 06:28:46 PM
They were mentally tortured with lies about swingers etc + terrible publicity + many other things , including
..... forcibly trying to pressurize Kate to admit something that she and Gerry hadn't done, by saying that she would only get two years and Gerry could carry on looking after the children at home. Better than both being locked away for years.
..... lieing to Gerry that the dogs had found evidence that a dead Madeleine was carried in the hire car. And telling him that they had proof that he had done it.
Lies and mental torture
Any kind of police interrigation-questioning is upsetting. So..
The police had to find out what happened why would they not ask the last person who claims to have seen her some questions.. Well, apart from the obvious they are demi gods ofcourse. Did the police tell the press they were swingers?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 14, 2015, 12:49:13 AM
- Did she deny it ? If she did could the fact that Gerry didn't know about the phonecall be the reason ?
- She wasn't in the habit of losing a child but it happened.
- No idea
- Speculation based on wishful thinking.
As I have said before it's not the fact that Kate had a dream that's significant it's that Gerry chose to deny hat she had that is.
On the contrary Faith - it's the fact that a DREAM was actually considered as a turning point in the case by the policemen investigating it which is significant. What does that say about their professionalism? It was a dream FGS! If SY had made the same claim I would think they were all off their rockers. I can't believe that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence would not think the same.
Gerry did not deny Kate had a dream. He denied that she had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried somewhere - a statement which concurs with Paiva's own description of what she had told him.
People in deep grief do have intensely vivid dreams about their loved ones. It's perfectly normal and certainly not evidence that they have committed a crime. That is a preposterous claim for the PJ to make IMO.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 08:16:29 AM
- Did she deny it ? If she did could the fact that Gerry didn't know about the phonecall be the reason ?
- She wasn't in the habit of losing a child but it happened.
- No idea
- Speculation based on wishful thinking.
As I have said before it's not the fact that Kate had a dream that's significant it's that Gerry chose to deny hat she had that is.
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that Gerry did not deny Kate had a dream, he denied that Kate dreamt of Madeleine dead and buried on a hillside?!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:31:52 AM
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that Gerry did not deny Kate had a dream, he denied that Kate dreamt of Madeleine dead and buried on a hillside?!
So he went out of his way to strut outside a court (in front of the world's cameras) from whch he was seeking 1 million squid in compensation to call Paiva a liar, that moves things on doesn't it?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 08:35:34 AM
So he went out of his way to strut outside a court (in front of the world's cameras) from whch he was seeking 1 million squid in compensation to call Paiva a liar, that moves things on doesn't it?
Strut? Your word. Liar? Your word. Gerry was correcting a misapprehension that was voiced in court. Why shouldn't he?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:51:21 AM
Strut? Your word. Liar? Your word. Gerry was correcting a misapprehension that was voiced in court. Why shouldn't he?
As this dream had just been claimed in court to be a turning point in the investigation and had been used as evidence of Kate's culpability - he certainly had every right to comment on it.
If he had wanted to put the boot in he could have asked what kind of 'mickey mouse' police team would seriously consider a dream as being evidence at all, let alone the reason to change the course of an investigation.
I think Amaral and his team got off lightly.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:25:15 AM
As this dream had just been claimed in court to be a turning point in the investigation and had been used as evidence of Kate's culpability - he certainly had every right to comment on it.
If he had wanted to put the boot in he could have asked what kind of 'mickey mouse' police team would seriously consider a dream as being evidence at all, let alone the reason to change the course of an investigation.
I think Amaral and his team got off lightly.
What is the evidence that this phone call proved to Paiva kate's culpability?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 14, 2015, 09:50:35 AM
What is the evidence that this phone call proved to Paiva kate's culpability?
Well if not - then why was it even mentioned at all? I think we can assume that 'the turning point' which this dream had apparently caused was not 'turning' the case away from Kate but being used as proof of her guilt. How bizarre is that?
I'm still waiting for a sceptic to give their opinion on what they think of a police force which actually considers a dream to be major evidence against the person who had the dream!!
IT'S A DREAM! fgs (said in the same tone as IT'S A PUPPET!!)
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 09:55:01 AM
On the contrary Faith - it's the fact that a DREAM was actually considered as a turning point in the case by the policemen investigating it which is significant. What does that say about their professionalism? It was a dream FGS! If SY had made the same claim I would think they were all off their rockers. I can't believe that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence would not think the same.
Gerry did not deny Kate had a dream. He denied that she had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried somewhere - a statement which concurs with Paiva's own description of what she had told him.
People in deep grief do have intensely vivid dreams about their loved ones. It's perfectly normal and certainly not evidence that they have committed a crime. That is a preposterous claim for the PJ to make IMO.
Is there a transcript anywhere of what Paiva actually said in court? I can't find one anywhere.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Benice on August 14, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
Is there a transcript anywhere of what Paiva actually said in court? I can't find one anywhere.
Sorry G - I'm useless at searching - but it may be in the court transcripts that we have somewhere here. IIRC the court case was not the first mention of the dream.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 10:16:57 AM
Sorry G - I'm useless at searching - but it may be in the court transcripts that we have somewhere here. IIRC the court case was not the first mention of the dream.
This was the earlier court testimonies when the book ban was being discussed; January 2010. I can't find any transcripts for that time.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 11:39:27 AM
Why should he outside of court proceedings, that is the question. Who cared? And why?
Maybe he cared and maybe because there were a number of waiting journos outside the court it was the ideal opportunity to set the record straight? Crazy logic I know!
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2015, 11:59:40 AM
What is the evidence that this phone call proved to Paiva kate's culpability?
Why the constant disingenuity and the apparent inability to Google information? Quite tiresome.
**Snip Pivot: Gerry McCann repudiated the PJ Inspectors who stated in court that their daughter Madeleine is dead. The father of the child disappeared in the Algarve, accuses therefore the Inspector Ricardo Paiva of lying, when he said that his wife Kate called him, in the summer of 2007, telling that she had a dream where her daughter was dead and buried at hill in Praia da Luz. The PJ inspector said that this dream was decisive to change the course of investigations.
Voice over (Sandra Felgueiras): After yesterdays absolute silence, Gerry and Kate arrived at the civil court at 9:30 am, ready to blow off steam.
SF: How did you support hearing the inspectors repeating that Madeleine is dead and that you are involved?
Gerry McCann: The most important thing yesterday was what the prosecutor said, there's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead.
Voice Over: At the same moment Gonçalo Amaral made a completely different assessment of the statements given yesterday by the former investigation colleagues. And even by the actual Nº2 of the PJ.
Gonçalo Amaral: Since yesterday I'm not the only one speaking, I can't say anything further since I'm in a injunction, so, about certain facts it's not only me talking. I'm not alone regarding that.
SF: Moita Flores ended up proving or corroborating, in the morning, that Madeleine couldn't have been abducted without any traces. During two hours, via video-conference, the former PJ inspector and actual Mayor of Santarém, praised the work done by the investigators of Madeleine's case, the same ones that Gerry McCann didn't spare criticism on his way out of the court, to go to London.
GM: It's particularly disappointing that certain police officers, withing Portimão, who considered us as possibly being involved in Madeleine's disappearence, have not been able to change their mind, inspite the lack of evidences. And it is this officers we are depending on for pursuing the investigation within Portugal.
GM: I would like to make absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream, that Madeleine was buried somewhere. And, I don't know if something has been lost in interpretation, but that didn't happen.
Voice Over: Gerry declared untrue in this manner the sworn statement given yesterday by the inspector Ricardo Paiva, who, to the court explained that Kate's dream, that was told to him on the phone, two months later after the disappearance was crucial for the PJ to start investigating the hypothesis of the child being dead.
GM: We are not under trial, not at all. people may want to say that, but we were exonerated.[cut] The PJ tried... What was seen very clearly is that one thesis in particular tried to be proven, possibly more than any other. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/gerry-mccann-denies-pj-officers.html
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:36:08 PM
Well if not - then why was it even mentioned at all? I think we can assume that 'the turning point' which this dream had apparently caused was not 'turning' the case away from Kate but being used as proof of her guilt. How bizarre is that?
I'm still waiting for a sceptic to give their opinion on what they think of a police force which actually considers a dream to be major evidence against the person who had the dream!!
IT'S A DREAM! fgs (said in the same tone as IT'S A PUPPET!!)
I don't know what question he was asked, the context, or anything about his deposition, so can't answer that
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:52:58 PM
Maybe he cared and maybe because there were a number of waiting journos outside the court it was the ideal opportunity to set the record straight? Crazy logic I know!
Yes, maybe
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:56:12 PM
Why the constant disingenuity and the apparent inability to Google information? Quite tiresome.
**Snip Pivot: Gerry McCann repudiated the PJ Inspectors who stated in court that their daughter Madeleine is dead. The father of the child disappeared in the Algarve, accuses therefore the Inspector Ricardo Paiva of lying, when he said that his wife Kate called him, in the summer of 2007, telling that she had a dream where her daughter was dead and buried at hill in Praia da Luz. The PJ inspector said that this dream was decisive to change the course of investigations.
Voice over (Sandra Felgueiras): After yesterdays absolute silence, Gerry and Kate arrived at the civil court at 9:30 am, ready to blow off steam.
SF: How did you support hearing the inspectors repeating that Madeleine is dead and that you are involved?
Gerry McCann: The most important thing yesterday was what the prosecutor said, there's absolutely no evidence that Madeleine is dead.
Voice Over: At the same moment Gonçalo Amaral made a completely different assessment of the statements given yesterday by the former investigation colleagues. And even by the actual Nº2 of the PJ.
Gonçalo Amaral: Since yesterday I'm not the only one speaking, I can't say anything further since I'm in a injunction, so, about certain facts it's not only me talking. I'm not alone regarding that.
SF: Moita Flores ended up proving or corroborating, in the morning, that Madeleine couldn't have been abducted without any traces. During two hours, via video-conference, the former PJ inspector and actual Mayor of Santarém, praised the work done by the investigators of Madeleine's case, the same ones that Gerry McCann didn't spare criticism on his way out of the court, to go to London.
GM: It's particularly disappointing that certain police officers, withing Portimão, who considered us as possibly being involved in Madeleine's disappearence, have not been able to change their mind, inspite the lack of evidences. And it is this officers we are depending on for pursuing the investigation within Portugal.
GM: I would like to make absolutely clear that Kate has never had a dream, that Madeleine was buried somewhere. And, I don't know if something has been lost in interpretation, but that didn't happen.
Voice Over: Gerry declared untrue in this manner the sworn statement given yesterday by the inspector Ricardo Paiva, who, to the court explained that Kate's dream, that was told to him on the phone, two months later after the disappearance was crucial for the PJ to start investigating the hypothesis of the child being dead.
GM: We are not under trial, not at all. people may want to say that, but we were exonerated.[cut] The PJ tried... What was seen very clearly is that one thesis in particular tried to be proven, possibly more than any other. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/01/gerry-mccann-denies-pj-officers.html
Thanks for getting tired for little disingenuous me! How exactly was I supposed to google to find the dream was a pointer to Kate's culpability. ?
So, all that says, in essence, is Gerry accused Paiva of perjury. Charming.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: slartibartfast on August 14, 2015, 08:55:38 PM
I would have thought that any person of interest in a missing person case who volunteers information from a "dream" about the whereabouts of the missing person is going to ring alarm bells for the investigating police force.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
I would have thought that any person of interest in a missing person case who volunteers information from a "dream" about the whereabouts of the missing person is going to ring alarm bells for the investigating police force.
why would you have thought that then? Do explain.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: slartibartfast on August 14, 2015, 09:17:11 PM
Person of interest looking for closure, Christian Burial?
Hang on a minute. Firstly, Kate never claimed she dreamt that Madeleine was buried anywhere, secondly what is intrinsically suspicious about a distraught mother having a dream about her missing child and telling the police about it?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: slartibartfast on August 14, 2015, 10:17:42 PM
Hang on a minute. Firstly, Kate never claimed she dreamt that Madeleine was buried anywhere, secondly what is intrinsically suspicious about a distraught mother having a dream about her missing child and telling the police about it?
I wasn't there so don't know how it was put to the police.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 10:23:08 PM
On the contrary Faith - it's the fact that a DREAM was actually considered as a turning point in the case by the policemen investigating it which is significant. What does that say about their professionalism? It was a dream FGS! If SY had made the same claim I would think they were all off their rockers. I can't believe that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence would not think the same.
Gerry did not deny Kate had a dream. He denied that she had a dream that Madeleine was dead and buried somewhere - a statement which concurs with Paiva's own description of what she had told him.
People in deep grief do have intensely vivid dreams about their loved ones. It's perfectly normal and certainly not evidence that they have committed a crime. That is a preposterous claim for the PJ to make IMO.
Then tell me Benice why did Gerry vehemently deny something that hadn't been suggested by anyone ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 14, 2015, 10:43:39 PM
How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that Gerry did not deny Kate had a dream, he denied that Kate dreamt of Madeleine dead and buried on a hillside?!
The same question to you. Why when a at that time no one had suggested such a scenario did Gerry deny it ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 11:13:51 PM
Then tell me Benice why did Gerry vehemently deny something that hadn't been suggested by anyone ?
I think you're splitting hairs now Faith..
Gerry was commenting on what had just been claimed in court. i.e. that Paiva's own interpretation of a dream by Kate (that Madeleine was on a hillside) - was that Kate knew Madeleine was dead- and that is why Amaral and co. changed the course of the investigation.
As Kate had not told Paiva that she knew Madeleine was dead and had never had a dream that she was dead or buried anywhere - then Paiva's 'impression' was wrong. Gerry was pointing that out to the Press.
The fact that neither Paiva nor Amaral and co - were the slightest bit embarrassed to admit that it was dream which caused a major turning point in a criminal investigation speaks volumes IMO. I'm surprised they didn't produce photos showing Kate wearing a black top - as apparently that would also be a clear indication of her guilt.
And these are supposed to be professional policemen?!
IMO they would be laughed out of court in this country.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 15, 2015, 10:46:23 AM
Gerry was commenting on what had just been claimed in court. i.e. that Paiva's own interpretation of a dream by Kate (that Madeleine was on a hillside) - was that Kate knew Madeleine was dead- and that is why Amaral and co. changed the course of the investigation.
As Kate had not told Paiva that she knew Madeleine was dead and had never had a dream that she was dead or buried anywhere - then Paiva's 'impression' was wrong. Gerry was pointing that out to the Press.
The fact that neither Paiva nor Amaral and co - were the slightest bit embarrassed to admit that it was dream which caused a major turning point in a criminal investigation speaks volumes IMO. I'm surprised they didn't produce photos showing Kate wearing a black top - as apparently that would also be a clear indication of her guilt.
And these are supposed to be professional policemen?!
IMO they would be laughed out of court in this country.
Not splitting hairs at all Benice. Pavia did not say that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was buried anywhere so why deny something that was not claimed ?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 10:52:20 AM
Not splitting hairs at all Benice. Pavia did not say that Kate had a dream that Madeleine was buried anywhere so why deny something that was not claimed ?
So what exactly did Paiva say? Anybody?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: faithlilly on August 15, 2015, 12:39:42 PM
It's been posted several times on this thread Eleanor. Perhaps it would be helpful if you read back.
Sorry. I haven't got the time. And don't remember a definitive Cite anyway. And believe it or not, I do read every posts. Perhaps you would be be kind enough to remind me.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 04:05:09 PM
PJ and SY searching the area labelled "close to dog kennels" on Krugel map see next post http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz357/JillyCL/Sky/sky2-9.jpg
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 04:08:31 PM
Krugel map. Includes the area the possible phonecall was supposedly about. http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/daniekrugelmap.jpg
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 15, 2015, 04:52:05 PM
Yup. It was Paiva's impression of Kate's dream that proved the turning point of the investigation. Who needs solid evidence when you've got Police dream interpreters on hand, eh?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 05:27:13 PM
Yup. It was Paiva's impression of Kate's dream that proved the turning point of the investigation. Who needs solid evidence when you've got Police dream interpreters on hand, eh?
So any old pile of shite would have done?
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 15, 2015, 05:39:38 PM
I dreamt I rescued Madeleine from a caravan once but I shan't be telling the PJ about it in case they think I dunnit and come and tow me and my caravan away. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 05:45:04 PM
I dreamt I rescued Madeleine from a caravan once but I shan't be telling the PJ about it in case they think I dunnit and come and tow me and my caravan away. 8(8-))
Funny you should say. I dreamt that I saw Madeleine being carried up a path. Fortunately I don't have a path.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 15, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: John on August 15, 2015, 06:13:33 PM
Geez... Kate had a dream, Correia had a dream...anyone else? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 06:26:13 PM
The theory about concealment in this particular area was communicated to the parents on 18th July, so the claim there was a phonecall about it a few days later is at least plausible.
Title: Re: Ricardo Paiva, "Kate McCann had a dream where she saw Maddie on a hillside"
Post by: mercury on August 17, 2015, 10:23:01 PM
The theory about concealment in this particular area was communicated to the parents on 18th July, so the claim there was a phonecall about it a few days later is at least plausible.
Of course it is plausible. If the Mccanns thought there was any chance Krugels machine could find anything, as they must have done when bringing him in, if he relayed this to them, and then Kate Mccann relayed it to the police to search the area, in case he was right, the only problem is, as I said very early on in the thread, is if it was a lost in translation issue regarding the "dream"