Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 04:26:27 PM
Title: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 04:26:27 PM
Following on from a discussion on another thread, why is it thought by some, including the McCanns themselves, that Jane and the Smiths probably saw the same man ?
Is it more likely that there two men seen carrying a child that night, and if it is which of them was more likely to have been the abductor ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 04:42:22 PM
The two carriers were merged after 2 years, and even then the Smith one was adjusted to the Tanner one. Reasons for this delay are obvious, one of them I personally find legitimate : Martin Smith thought his carrier could be Mr McCann, a sort of a pain in the neck though Mr McCann looks a bit like everybody, no offence as you would say. The "official" story of wandering during 45 minutes with Madeleine on his arms then against his shoulder is effectively very implausible. But, I think Jane T saw a carrier and I don't doubt that the 9 Smith saw one too. How can we conciliate this ? This is the question (imo).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 08, 2013, 04:45:27 PM
This could be a very interesting thread Icabodcrane as so many myths have been created on the back of these sightings. 8@??)(
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 04:52:23 PM
A further question would be if the carrier was the same person would he have risked carrying the child through the village after he must have known ( the half hourly checks ) that the alarm would have been raised ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 05:11:33 PM
A further question would be if the carrier was the same person would he have risked carrying the child through the village after he must have known ( the half hourly checks ) that the alarm would have been raised ?
That is an excellent point. Plus, if it was the same man, who originally had walked east, would have had to walk back along the same path he was seen to get to where the Smiths saw him, I think, thus risking beng seen agan.
The descriptions of the man the Smiths saw do not match Tanner's sketch, which was done by a police artist,specifically the hair, Smiths said short brown hair, Tanner said black and longer, also Tanner said dark skinned/swarthy, the Smiths said caucasian/light skinned
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 05:17:43 PM
Why have neither, ever come forward?
Couldn't the child have been passed to another, so as not to attract attention?. Could that be why there is a difference in times of sightings?
After all they were well organised, and seemed to know the area well!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 05:18:15 PM
I think it is unlikely that the man Jane saw, and the man the Smiths saw were one and the same
It seems implausible to me that an abductor would be carrying a ( still sleeping ) child through the streets of PDL almost an hour after he had snatched her from her bed
In her book, though, Kate dismisses the 45 minute lapse in the two sightings as insignificant :
"Who knows why ther was a forty-five-minute gap between the two sightings, or where this man might have been inbetween ? I long ago stopped trying to come up with answers because I don't think I need to"
I don't think that view is justified. In order to believe the man the Smiths saw was the same man Jane had seen almost an hour before, there would have to be a plausible explanation for the time lapse ... and a plausible explanation for the abductor not using it to make his escape
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 05:23:02 PM
A further question would be if the carrier was the same person would he have risked carrying the child through the village after he must have known ( the half hourly checks ) that the alarm would have been raised ?
Very right, Faithlilly ! The two carriers have something in common, apart from not being in a hurry, they don't mind to be seen. Tanner one does'nt look right nor left before crossing Francisco GM, Smith one could eventually have gone down steps (I think) on the left, just before the Escola primaria narrows.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 05:27:31 PM
Couldn't the child have been passed to another, so as not to attract attention?. Could that be why there is a difference in times of sightings?
After all they were well organised, and seemed to know the area well!
They couldn't have been that well organised if risking AND being spotted twice! And taking three quarters of an hour to disappear. What happened to the car theory? IMO there is no substantial evidence to connect the two. Either one or none were the abductor, not both
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 05:32:56 PM
But the alarm wasn't raised till after the Smith sighting, so who would be searching?
But the abductor couldn't have known that. If he had watched the McCans and had known the checks were every half hour, he would have assumed the alarm had already been raised.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 05:45:05 PM
They couldn't have been that well organised if risking AND being spotted twice! And taking three quarters of an hour to disappear. What happened to the car theory? IMO there is no substantial evidence to connect the two. Either one or none were the abductor, not both
None being the abductor ? This would exceed probability laws. Either you eliminate one, and the most reasonable would be to suppress Tanner one (since nobody saw her seeing), or you keep Tanner one but change both time and orientation. Or you conclude the carrier wasn't an abductor.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 05:51:02 PM
Couldn't the child have been passed to another, so as not to attract attention?. Could that be why there is a difference in times of sightings?
After all they were well organised, and seemed to know the area well!
Kate, in her book, also references the fact that no father has come forward to say it was him and his child who was there that night
I don't go along with the leap in reasoning that if the man didn't come forward then he is probably an abductor
There are a number of reasons that might explain an innocent man not presenting himself to the police ... the most fundemental one, being, that some people simply don't want to get 'involved'
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 05:57:50 PM
There are a number of reasons that might explain an innocent man not presenting himself to the police ... the most fundemental one, being, that some people simply don't want to get 'involved'
The Smiths got "involved", there's no indication they hesitated before calling the PJ who sent them to the gardaï. What they said, the description of a little 4yrs old pale and medium blond girl, was much more compromising than for an innocent father or brother or uncle to say he was the one.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 06:01:46 PM
None being the abductor ? This would exceed probability laws. Either you eliminate one, and the most reasonable would be to suppress Tanner one (since nobody saw her seeing), or you keep Tanner one but change both time and orientation. Or you conclude the carrier wasn't an abductor.
I'm not concluding anything Anne. IMO both were probably not Madeleine carriers, the timings do not make sense, plus the blase way they just wandered around,just my opinion.
I had thought once perhaps Tanners man was someone going to the night creche but thought it a bit too late at night, but not impossible. Or he was going to the local pharmacy or health centre with an ill child, going by the way they were carrying them, but I think those facilities were south rather than east. For all we know, said carriers had been to see a friend or relative nearby and were just going home, we just dont know and I completely agree with Icabs post above. It makes alot of sense. And re the Smiths, coming forward as a witness is not the same as coming forward as an innocent carrier.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 06:17:26 PM
I'm not concluding anything Anne. IMO both were probably not Madeleine carriers, the timings do not make sense, plus the blase way they just wandered around,just my opinion.
I had thought once perhaps Tanners man was someone going to the night creche but thought it a bit too late at night, but not impossible. Or he was going to the local pharmacy or health centre with an ill child, going by the way they were carrying them, but I think those facilities were south rather than east. For all we know, said carriers had been to see a friend or relative nearby and were just going home, we just dont know and I completely agree with Icabs post above. It makes alot of sense. And re the Smiths, coming forward as a witness is not the same as coming forward as an innocent carrier.
There no pharmacy in the direction taken by Tanner carrier and if he had gone to the creche he would have gone down Francisco Gentil Martins. There's a health center at the corner of Escola Primaria and 25 de Abril, but I think it was closed at night. Eventually a father trying this health center, seeing it was closed and calling a taxi ? But imo another bare feet, light pyjama, dark blond hair up to shoulders, white skin, 4yrs oldish, 1m high, deep sleep in windy, chilly PDL night, carried by an innocent father who just doesn't want to be involved whereas a family is desperate, well...
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 06:26:57 PM
There no pharmacy in the direction taken by Tanner carrier and if he had gone to the creche he would have gone down Francisco Gentil Martins. There's a health center at the corner of Escola Primaria and 25 de Abril, but I think it was closed at night. Eventually a father trying this health center, seeing it was closed and calling a taxi ? But imo another bare feet, light pyjama, dark blond hair up to shoulders, white skin, 4yrs oldish, 1m high, deep sleep in windy, chilly PDL night, carried by an innocent father who just doesn't want to be involved whereas a family is desperate, well...
I take your point Anne, but do you think it is possible that the man Jane saw may have been an innocent carrier who did not present himself to the police for his own reasons ?
Is it possible, do you think, that the man the Smiths saw was a different man, and that he was the abductor ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 06:35:32 PM
Anne, I dont know, perhaps the man freaked out with the thought of being suspected in a case that hit the worldwide media the next day and for days weeks and months later onwards? We dont know when and if anyone was asked to come forward those early days. Perhaps he was one of the many people who are not slaves to the TV and even if such an appeal was made he missed it. We just dont know. Going on, one other reason to think the Smiths man was not the abductor, was one of the Smiths saying the child had trousers on and long sleeves, according to the Mccanns Madeleine was wearing short sleeves and shorts
Edited , muddled up my last sentence/meaning
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2013, 06:40:45 PM
That is an excellent point. Plus, if it was the same man, who originally had walked east, would have had to walk back along the same path he was seen to get to where the Smiths saw him, I think, thus risking beng seen agan.
The descriptions of the man the Smiths saw do not match Tanner's sketch, which was done by a police artist,specifically the hair, Smiths said short brown hair, Tanner said black and longer, also Tanner said dark skinned/swarthy, the Smiths said caucasian/light skinned
IIRC Jayne Tanner didn't see the man's face and gave no description of it in her statements.
I think the differences in the hair are minimal - brown or black, and hair which was not long i.e.- as in not down his back, but ending at the neck. The point JT was trying to make about the hair was that it wasn't layered - in her opinion, all hairs being the same length - but still ending in the neck.
They are not major differences IMO.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 06:48:40 PM
IIRC Jayne Tanner didn't see the man's face and gave no description of it in her statements.
I think the differences in the hair are minimal - brown or black, and hair which was not long i.e.- as in not down his back, but ending at the neck. The point JT was trying to make about the hair was that it wasn't layered - in her opinion, all hairs being the same length - but still ending in the neck.
They are not major differences IMO.
You think the man Jane saw and the man the Smiths saw almost an hour later were one and the same ( the abductor ) ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2013, 06:51:16 PM
There no pharmacy in the direction taken by Tanner carrier and if he had gone to the creche he would have gone down Francisco Gentil Martins. There's a health center at the corner of Escola Primaria and 25 de Abril, but I think it was closed at night. Eventually a father trying this health center, seeing it was closed and calling a taxi ? But imo another bare feet, light pyjama, dark blond hair up to shoulders, white skin, 4yrs oldish, 1m high, deep sleep in windy, chilly PDL night, carried by an innocent father who just doesn't want to be involved whereas a family is desperate, well...
If he was going to the Creche, or had collected his daughter from it, then surely the Creche would have had a record of that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 06:51:25 PM
I take your point Anne, but do you think it is possible that the man Jane saw may have been an innocent carrier who did not present himself to the police for his own reasons ?
Is it possible, do you think, that the man the Smiths saw was a different man, and that he was the abductor ?
Icabodcrane, I don't know if any of these men was an abductor, that's why I always call them "carrier". The Tanner carrier seems odder than the Smith one : he crosses a junction without turning his head (cars might come from behind), he carries the child (of which she sees only both legs) like a fireman a victim and Jane in fact is transparent for 2 persons who aren't transparent for her. Had she described the normal carrying position, I would think she had some kind of hallucination or made a confusion with another night. About the Smith, they are 3 to testify more or less the same, Mrs Smith confirming her husband. Aoife who notices buttons on the side of pants, said the little girl could be Madeleine. The details the others gave match with Madeleine. I think the probability she wasn't Madeleine is very tiny. Between the two carried children, if we have to chose one as being likely Madeleine who will hesitate ? But if Redblossom is right and none of these carriers was abducting, then when and how was Madeleine removed from the G5A ? Between 21h30 and 22h and by car ? Jane crossed the car park at 21:35/40 and Russell around 21:45... Lucky guy(s) !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 06:56:37 PM
IIRC Jayne Tanner didn't see the man's face and gave no description of it in her statements.
I think the differences in the hair are minimal - brown or black, and hair which was not long i.e.- as in not down his back, but ending at the neck. The point JT was trying to make about the hair was that it wasn't layered - in her opinion, all hairs being the same length - but still ending in the neck.
They are not major differences IMO.
They are IMO
dark skinned individual? Here
Dark skinned individual, male sex, aged between 35-40, ...snip
Also hair was longer at the back, Smiths said short and one said fuller on top, different IMO, and no one said his hair was way down his back, ! but the Mccanns DID misrepresent all this in their documentary
There is no way the Smiths descriptions in a million years could be depicted in a documentary which was designed as a reconstruction to bring forward new leads so shoddily and inaccurately, by showing a man with a nape necked BOB
!
And from JTs rogatry, no way is this short hair but if it was, pray tell why her police sketch artist produced what she produced
Reply “But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 06:57:20 PM
You think the man Jane saw and the man the Smiths saw almost an hour later were one and the same ( the abductor ) ?
It would be much easier if they weren't the same person, as the time delay presents questions which wouldn't exist but for the Smith sighting. However, the similarities between the two descriptions are far too many IMO for it to be two different people with two different children. The fact that the Smiths knew nothing about the JT description when they gave theirs is also very pertinent - and especially that both thought the man didn't look like a tourist, and both noticed the child's bare feet.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 07:09:18 PM
Anne, I dont know, perhaps the man freaked out with the thought of being suspected in a case that hit the worldwide media the next day and for days weeks and months later onwards?
Everything's possible, I suppose. This was Carana's hypothesis. I don't find it plausible. Empathy with a father losing his child is easier when you're a father with a child of the same age. Why would a normal father normally carrying his normal child in a normal night freak out ? The only hypothesis I see, if we are to follow the Smiths but discard your freaking out father, would be a local guy who found Madeleine searching for her parents, tried to help her but somehow scared her and suffocated her accidentally trying to stop her screaming. It sounds likely to me and I have thought of it from the very beginning. No abduction, just a sad accident. The implication is that Eddie's alerts were r... Also I always wondered why the McCanns rejected any hypothesis of this kind. I do have an idea why though.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 07:11:15 PM
How could Jane T see the lace bottom of shorts, it the child was lying as on the sketch ?
Why does the police sketch show pants right down to the ankles, never mind the colour or design?
They were shorts, even long shorts would ride up I agree, Ive always said Jane Tanners description was a bit too detailed for the time she actually observed which was a few seconds and in the dusk and at the distance to come out with such sharp details as she did about the man and the childs clothing, Height, build, description of hair, skin, clothing colour and fabric and style, whether his trousers were creased or not,type of shoes, height of heels, childs pyjama colour, pattern, frills on bottom etc, is this possible? i dont know
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 07:14:17 PM
It would be much easier if they weren't the same person, as the time delay presents questions which wouldn't exist but for the Smith sighting. However, the similarities between the two descriptions are far too many IMO for it to be two different people with two different children. The fact that the Smiths knew nothing about the JT description when they gave theirs is also very pertinent - and especially that both thought the man didn't look like a tourist, and both noticed the child's bare feet.
Well I suppose there are many people who live in PDL who are not tourists but do carry their own children for a variety of reasons, if both seeing bare feet of a child is your evidence they were one and the same, sorry, thats weak On balance, there are more dissimilarities than similarities , all posted by me on this thread above, including the long sleeved Smith girl >@@(*&)
Unless that WAS Madeleine and the Mccanns lied about what she was wearing that COLD night once Gerry, if he was the carrier, knew he had been spotted by them? Possible? Or too conspiratorial?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 07:14:52 PM
Why does the police sketch show pants right down to the ankles, never mind the colour or design?
They were shorts, even long shorts would ride up I agree, Ive always said Jane Tanners description was a bit too detailed for the time she actually observed which was a few seconds and in the dusk and at the distance to come out with such sharp details as she did about the man and the childs clothing, Height, build, description of hair, skin, clothing colour and fabric and style, whether his trousers were creased or not,type of shoes, height of heels, childs pyjama colour, pattern, frills on bottom etc, is this possible? i dont know
What made me laugh is the pants colour that was brownish, yellowish, etc. to finish "ugly"!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 07:18:50 PM
Well I suppose there are many people who live in PDL who are not tourists but do carry their own children for a variety of reasons, if both seeing bare feet of a child is your evidence they were one and the same, sorry, thats weak On balance, there are more dissimilarities than similarities
Only T (Peter Smith's wife's son) noticed bare feet.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 08, 2013, 07:26:32 PM
Jane wasn't at all happy with the basic facilities provided by the police. She criticised them for not having side view software so she should noy have been able to give any real description of what the man looked like. Even when the PJ did a photofit picture she said that the guys hair was too long. It makes me think that there was a communication or language problem. If they couldn't even get the basics right...?
The reason why the guy the Smiths encountered never came forward is a strange one but you have to remember that many people are media shy for all sorts of reasons. Maybe he was on the run or hiding from someone or something. One just never knows.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 07:29:58 PM
What made me laugh is the pants colour that was brownish, yellowish, etc. to finish "ugly"!
You mean the carrier? yes, from gold, to mustard, to light,dirty, ugly, khaki in the mccann documentary, bit like the ugly disgusting man with spots, seen just sitting and staring at the mccanns apartment for a few days beforehand to a sketch penned by I dont know who which showed that ugly scarface man with the teddyboy haircut which looked nothing like the efit the actual witness had created, to mrs cooper seeing a man two weeks before 2 miles away or so, and that gave her the creeps, he smelt of onions,and asked for donations, and that turned into a major mccann investigation with Tanner saying yes thats him 80%, though she never saw his face and clarence mitchell doing a mass press conference, turns out Mrs cooper kept changing her story
Sorry, but......
And lets not forget fifth from the left second row, margaret hall saw a suspicious man i
in oct 06 loitering around 5a
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/SUSPECTS.htm
Lets also not forget the daily mail puttng side by side the jane tanner sketch with murats girlfriend at the time and them also putting side by side a thirty year old photo of raymond hewlett alongside another *police sketch* from gail coopers testimony
Both examples showing uncanny resemblances, wierd or what! NOT coincidences either in my opinion at all, manipulations and shenanigans in this case by uk bods certainly compromised the pt investigation IMO, they are complicit in making the nvestigation fail
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 07:39:10 PM
Jane wasn't at all happy with the basic facilities provided by the police. She criticised them for not having side view software so she should noy have been able to give any real description of what the man looked like. Even when the PJ did a photofit picture she said that the guys hair was too long. It makes me think that there was a communication or language problem. If they couldn't even get the basics right...?
The reason why the guy the Smiths encountered never came forward is a strange one but you have to remember that many people are media shy for all sorts of reasons. Maybe he was on the run or hiding from someone or something. One just never knows.
That's a good point
If the man had some sort of 'history' with the police then that would certainly give him second thoughts about coming forward
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 07:39:29 PM
he smelt of onions,and asked for donations, and that turned into a major mccann investigation with Tanner saying yes thats him 80%, though she never saw his face
Sorry, but......
What also made me laugh what the teethy one whom Mrs McCann found could be the faceless guy of Jane T's sketch !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 07:42:20 PM
If the man had some sort of 'history' with the police then that would certainly give him second thoughts about coming forward
Both men ? Or only one of them (the Smith one) ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 07:43:41 PM
Btw, the temperature was about 12°C. Jane T was shocked the child wasn't wrapped in a blanket. This is what attracted his attention. Mrs McCann was worried thinking Madeleine was half dressed. These two mothers who were in PDL that night should be listened to, imo.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 07:53:50 PM
I have never understood why they did that ... I mean there they were, faced with four very credible witnessess who saw a man carrying a child who fitted Madeleine's description exactly, and instead of thinking that might point to the possibility that the abduction occured some time later ( just before 10pm ) they insisted on tying the Smiths sighting with that of Jane's
They appear to have never considered the Smith family sighting on it's own merit, and in isolation, but, rather, have presented it as only being significant in as much as it ( somehow ) corroborates Jane's 9.15pm abductor sighting
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 08:00:13 PM
I have never understood why they did that ... I mean there they were, faced with four very credible witnessess who saw a man carrying a child who fitted Madeleine's description exactly, and instead of thinking that might point to the possibility that the abduction occured some time later ( just before 10pm ) they insisted on tying the Smiths sighting with that of Jane's
They appear to have never considered the Smith family sighting on it's own merit, and in isolation, but, rather, have presented it as only being significant in as much as it ( somehow ) corroborates Jane's 9.15pm abductor sighting
That's right, but they had a reason for this. Remember they were arguidos when Mr Smith thought the man he saw could be Mr McCann. Embarrassing situation. They hardly would mention the Smith carrier then. Later it appeared suspect they didn't, people finding it strange the discrimination between potential abductors. They decided to merge the carriers in "their" reconstruction. They did it badly and people found it strange. Why didn't they follow the statements of the Smith witnesses ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 08:02:59 PM
I have never understood why they did that ... I mean there they were, faced with four very credible witnessess who saw a man carrying a child who fitted Madeleine's description exactly, and instead of thinking that might point to the possibility that the abduction occured some time later ( just before 10pm ) they insisted on tying the Smiths sighting with that of Jane's
They appear to have never considered the Smith family sighting on it's own merit, and in isolation, but, rather, have presented it as only being significant in as much as it ( somehow ) corroborates Jane's 9.15pm abductor sighting
EXACTLY and 100% true, the smiths got a blase cursory mention once or twice, over the years, when their sighting was the MOST credible in many ways, the child desdriptionmatched,the time and day matched, the location was close, the curtains window and shutters open were not seen by matt at 9.30 and no slamming of doors from the heavy wind that night, and the mccanns knew about it from june 07, but they held press conferences about stupid (non) sightngs like cooperwoman and victoria beckham where there was NO link whatsoever to any abduction or sighting of a young child being carried and occured from two to hundreds of miles away and the people decided to talk months or two years later, barmy at best
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2013, 08:09:21 PM
Well I suppose there are many people who live in PDL who are not tourists but do carry their own children for a variety of reasons, if both seeing bare feet of a child is your evidence they were one and the same, sorry, thats weak On balance, there are more dissimilarities than similarities , all posted by me on this thread above, including the long sleeved Smith girl >@@(*&)
Unless that WAS Madeleine and the Mccanns lied about what she was wearing that COLD night once Gerry, if he was the carrier, knew he had been spotted by them? Possible? Or too conspiratorial?
I have to disagree that there are more dissimilarities than similarities Redblossom.
When you think of all the different shapes and sizes men can be, i.e.fat, thin, tall, short, bald, ginger, blonde, wearing a hat or not wearing a hat, wearing shorts or long trousers, old age pensioner or young man, etc etc then I think when you read both descriptions of age, build, clothing etc - even down to the same colour trousers, it's quite difficult imo NOT to think they were one and same man.
And both happened to be carring a little girl, of the same age, not a baby, or a boy, who also could have been wearing anything from a vast variety of children's clothing and footwear - but both were described as wearing pajamas and had bare feet - and no blanket or cover even though it was a chilly night. And both seen in the same proximity to where a child had been abducted, within the same hour.
If it was an innocent father with his daughter then he must have been coming from somewhere and going somewhere, so why no mother or wife ringing up saying 'That was my son picking my grandaughter up from my house' or a wife saying something along the same lines.
Having said that I do not completely dismiss the fact that people may have been frightened to come forward if the reputation of the PJ's 'robust' interviewing techniques were widely known about. But if more than one member of this man's family were there to confirm that it was him then would they withhold that information? I'm not sure.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2013, 08:12:22 PM
So do most people believe Tanner actually saw someone ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 08, 2013, 08:25:42 PM
So do most people believe Tanner actually saw someone ?
There is some uncertainty about Jane's sighting ... Gerry thinks she wasn't even able to accurately recall which side of the street he and Jez were standing on, for instance, which in itself casts doubt on her powers of her recollection generally
It would have made sense if the McCanns had considered whether or not Jane may have been mistaken, and promoted, at least as being equally possible, the theory that the abduction might have occured later in the night ( just before 10pm ) as the Smith familiy sighting would have, logically, suggested
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 08:30:39 PM
There is some uncertainty about Jane's sighting ... Gerry thinks she wasn't even able to accurately recall which side of the street he and Jez were standing on, for instance, which in itself casts doubt on her powers of her recollection generally
It would have made sense if the McCanns had considered whether or not Jane may have been mistaken, and promoted, at least as being equally possible, the theory that the abduction might have occured later in the night ( just before 10pm ) as the Smith familiy sighting would have, logically, suggested
Which begs the question WHY promote the Tanner sighting instead to such a certain degree
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2013, 08:31:30 PM
So do most people believe Tanner actually saw someone ?
I definitely do Faithlilly. JT had no reason whatsoever to lie, she was not a particular friend of the McCanns, and having read her rogatory statement and seen her video interviews she seems to be a perfectly normal, intelligent, decent sort of person to me. I do not believe for a minute that she would agree to put herself and her children's lives at such horrendous risk by agreeing to become an Accessory to the death/disposal of someone else's child. That makes no sense. IMO
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 08, 2013, 08:37:07 PM
There is some uncertainty about Jane's sighting ... Gerry thinks she wasn't even able to accurately recall which side of the street he and Jez were standing on, for instance, which in itself casts doubt on her powers of her recollection generally It would have made sense if the McCanns had considered whether or not Jane may have been mistaken, and promoted, at least as being equally possible, the theory that the abduction might have occured later in the night ( just before 10pm ) as the Smith familiy sighting would have, logically, suggested
Wasn't it Gerry's recollection of where they stood which differed from JT's and Jez Wilkins?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 08:47:41 PM
Only T (Peter Smith's wife's son) noticed bare feet.
Peter Smiths son
Adds further that his son TA*** was questioned in Ireland and said that the individual was dressed in a long-sleeved coat/jacket, black in colour, and that the child was barefoot.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 08:56:25 PM
Unless that WAS Madeleine and the Mccanns lied about what she was wearing that COLD night once Gerry, if he was the carrier, knew he had been spotted by them? Possible? Or too conspiratorial?
They simple could have swapped pyjamas to fit Jane's sighting which was so important for them as being the one and only possible evidence. It was cold, all these people had jackets or fleece, nobody would carry a half naked child unless in an emergency.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 08:59:10 PM
There is some uncertainty about Jane's sighting ... Gerry thinks she wasn't even able to accurately recall which side of the street he and Jez were standing on, for instance, which in itself casts doubt on her powers of her recollection generally
It would have made sense if the McCanns had considered whether or not Jane may have been mistaken, and promoted, at least as being equally possible, the theory that the abduction might have occured later in the night ( just before 10pm ) as the Smith familiy sighting would have, logically, suggested
As JW and JT mentioned the same side of the street, GMC could doubt Jane, we can't.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 08:59:59 PM
They simple could have swapped pyjamas to fit Jane's sighting which was so important for them as being the one and only possible evidence. It was cold, all these people had jackets or fleece, nobody would carry a half naked child unless in an emergency.
Yes, for some reason HER sighting HAS to be the one, why?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 08, 2013, 09:01:22 PM
Adds further that his son TA*** was questioned in Ireland and said that the individual was dressed in a long-sleeved coat/jacket, black in colour, and that the child was barefoot.
No, TA, a teenager, is Peter Smith's step son.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 08, 2013, 09:01:39 PM
I don't believe that either sighting was the abductor, and I don't believe he two sightings were the same person.
You could well be right there. I haven't noticed anything in the files about the CCTV, that Amaral said could have captured the abductor, when he spoke to the Express. Nor is there any mention of the villa he said was searched.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 08, 2013, 09:49:30 PM
You could well be right there. I haven't noticed anything in the files about the CCTV, that Amaral said could have captured the abductor, when he spoke to the Express. Nor is there any mention of the villa he said was searched.
two people saw two different people carrying a child at night in a holiday resort.
the only connection is what....??????
the time is different
the location is different
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: DCI on June 08, 2013, 09:53:47 PM
Yes, only connected by the Smiths statement, because of the way Gerry held his son.
no similarity at all to the Tanner sighting though
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 08, 2013, 10:01:58 PM
two men carrying children in a holiday report - wow
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 08, 2013, 11:36:35 PM
Here we go again ... sighs!
The Smiths saw their man in Rua d'Escola.
A scream was heard coming from the staff quarters according to a poster on the 3A's
The staff quarters were only about 50 metres up the Rua d;Escola from the sighting and the man was coming from that direction
Seems quite likely that a member of staff obtained a front door key and was the lifter of Madeleine
.... So, quite a possibility when the pick up car did not arrive, due to Jane witnessing the abduction, that the only place that bundleman could go was to his accomplis, the lifter, at the staff quarters.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:09:11 AM
two people saw two different people carrying a child at night in a holiday resort.
the only connection is what....??????
the time is different
the location is different
The inappropriate way the child was dressed ? Surely two separate father's would not disregard their child's comfort on such a cold night in the very same way ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:10:26 AM
A scream was heard coming from the staff quarters according to a poster on the 3A's
The staff quarters were only about 50 metres up the Rua d;Escola from the sighting and the man was coming from that direction
Seems quite likely that a member of staff obtained a front door key and was the lifter of Madeleine
.... So, quite a possibility when the pick up car did not arrive, due to Jane witnessing the abduction, that the only place that bundleman could go was to his accomplis, the lifter, at the staff quarters.
A scream was heard according to a poster on h 3as ? Must be rue then !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 09, 2013, 12:18:30 AM
faith are you saying you believe it was the same person or not - having difficulty from your answers?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 12:19:05 AM
The inappropriate way the child was dressed ? Surely two separate father's would not disregard their child's comfort on such a cold night in the very same way ?
Why are you keeping on that the carriers were fathers?
The man in the two sightings were very similar and SY and the PT authorities appear to accept the very real likelyhood of an abductor
You seem to be stuck in a groove ............Why?
Do you have an agenda of some sort? Are you trying to fulfill that agenda by trying to prove that Gerry 'dunit' ?
Or is this propaganda for Amaral ? A kind of ACE, so that he can use it in Court somehow to bolster his case?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 12:23:49 AM
This is all wumming again 8)-)))
Over and over the same stuff you go, boring the pants off people.
I guess in an effort to drive all the pros away.
It is sooo obviously wumming ... and I cant understand why it is being tolerated.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:30:22 AM
faith are you saying you believe it was the same person or not - having difficulty from your answers?
Just batting ideas about. If it was a father carrying their daughter home then it would almost certainly have to be the same person as it would be most unlikely that two separate fathers would show the same disregard for their children's comfort by clothing them in inappropriate attire for the weather.
If an abductor then the child was too similar for the carrier to be different.
Though I myself don't believe Tanner witnessed what she later claimed and have explained why on other threads.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:35:57 AM
discuss away - if you don't want people to give an answer then don't ask a question.
notice that big ? at the end faith?
The question was posed by Icabod and not myself.
Word to the wise, your futile attempts to make me seem foolish are seriously backfiring. I'd give it up now while you still have a shred of credibility left 8((()*/
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 12:57:23 AM
No, Benice, JT saw no little girl, only feet, a poor indication for age and sex.
No Anne, that's not true. She saw enough to be able to describe her pajamas, which IMO did not match pajamas which any four year old boy would ever wear.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on June 09, 2013, 12:59:15 AM
Word to the wise, your futile attempts to make me seem foolish are seriously backfiring. I'd give it up now while you still have a shred of credibility left 8((()*/
How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
I don't believe they were the same person.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 09, 2013, 01:05:21 AM
The inappropriate way the child was dressed ? Surely two separate father's would not disregard their child's comfort on such a cold night in the very same way ?
Surely not, especially if the child is a little girl, by nature a princess, fragile and delicate.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 09, 2013, 01:33:41 AM
No Anne, that's not true. She saw enough to be able to describe her pajamas, which IMO did not match pajamas which any four year old boy would ever wear.
Ah how the request of reconstruction was right ! These details (description of the pyjama), essential since Jane Watson deduced from them she saw a girl, were not even part of the McCann reconstruction... Bad job.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 09, 2013, 02:06:58 AM
No Anne, that's not true. She saw enough to be able to describe her pajamas, which IMO did not match pajamas which any four year old boy would ever wear.
That has always been a sticking point for me. I just don't see how Jane could have seen the details on the small part of the pyjama bottoms visible ... in the dark ... at that distance ... in a fleeting moment
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:19:40 AM
That has always been a sticking point for me. I just don't see how Jane could have seen the details on the small part of the pyjama bottoms visible ... in the dark ... at that distance ... in a fleeting moment
It wasn't all : The shoes were black in colour and classic in style, shoes with a light heel.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:27:19 AM
Can someone answer this question. How the hell could Jane Tanner provide facial details when she never saw the guys face?
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa306/cotojo/Suspect.jpg) The sketch was based on an interview with Gail Cooper, a grandmother from Nottinghamshire, who originally gave a statement to police in May last year.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 09, 2013, 02:29:01 AM
It wasn't all : The shoes were black in colour and classic in style, shoes with a light heel.
Would it have been possible to see those kinds of details in those circumstances ? ( I mean it's not like she was aware of the significance of it at the time and was paying close attention )
I don't think it is
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:31:10 AM
Can someone answer this question. How the hell could Jane Tanner provide facial details when she never saw the guys face?
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa306/cotojo/Suspect.jpg) The sketch was based on an interview with Gail Cooper, a grandmother from Nottinghamshire, who originally gave a statement to police in May last year.
Mrs McCann stated this gentleman looked pretty like Jane T's bundleman. As this gentleman doesn't look really like Mr McCann, the idea of merging the two carriers sounds a bit unreasonable.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:32:51 AM
You'll note that the pants are not short at all. It was obviously imperative to sketch the lace and the flowers, how could you do that if the pants were short ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 03:11:26 AM
I was interested if your reasoning was the same as mine ( that the lapse of time between sightings made the it unlikely that it was the same man )
The police did not appear to feel that Jane’s sighting in Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva and the man and child reported by the Irish holidaymakers in Rua da Escola Primária were related. They seem to have concluded that these were in all likelihood two different men carrying two different children (if, they implied, these two men actually existed at all). The only reason for their scepticism appeared to be an unexplained time lapse between the two sightings. They didn’t dovetail perfectly. To me the similarities seem far more significant than any discrepancy in timing. Every time I read these independent statements in the files (and neither could have been influenced by the other, remember – Jane’s description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements)... It sounds like, through similarities in sightings, the Smiths' statements, being independent, were cautioning Jane's statement as independent.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 08:41:36 AM
Can someone answer this question. How the hell could Jane Tanner provide facial details when she never saw the guys face?
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa306/cotojo/Suspect.jpg) The sketch was based on an interview with Gail Cooper, a grandmother from Nottinghamshire, who originally gave a statement to police in May last year.
This was NOT Jane Tanners photfit. I am surprised that you didn't know that.
I feel sure that you wouldn't want to create a new myth. 8(>((
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 08:46:18 AM
That has always been a sticking point for me. I just don't see how Jane could have seen the details on the small part of the pyjama bottoms visible ... in the dark ... at that distance ... in a fleeting moment
JT gives the distance as between 5/10 metres - ''nearer to 5''. I don't think that's such a distance not to be able to see. It wasn't pitch black - and there was lighting. 5 metres is just over 16ft.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 10:40:27 AM
Please, John, can you measure the distance between the patio gate and the T junction, as you measured the distance between the Tapas restaurant and the flat (70 m) ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 10:49:58 AM
24 metres Anne
5a gate to T junction (Bundleman/ Jane Tanner corner)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 10:54:39 AM
JT gives the distance as between 5/10 metres - ''nearer to 5''. I don't think that's such a distance not to be able to see. It wasn't pitch black - and there was lighting. 5 metres is just over 16ft.
Far enough away for you not to be able to see a tiny design on a child's pyjama legs which would have been, in reality much further up the child's legs than the drawing implies.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 11:14:05 AM
There was a street lamp shining straight on him on the opposite corner. He was walking almost directly towards it. It was actually very slightly to the south of his path so would provide very good illumination for Jane T to see.
And as a woman on her own after dark, she would be watching any strange man like a hawk
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 11:19:51 AM
JT gives the distance as between 5/10 metres - ''nearer to 5''. I don't think that's such a distance not to be able to see. It wasn't pitch black - and there was lighting. 5 metres is just over 16ft.
Just to illustrate the length we're talking about here - this is a normal parking space - 6m x 2.4 m - you'd have to have seriously impaired vision NOT to be able to see fairly clearly from one end to the other of a parking space, even in poor lighting.
Far enough away for you not to be able to see a tiny design on a child's pyjama legs which would have been, in reality much further up the child's legs than the drawing implies.
But even if you couldn't see the design in detail, you would get an impression of one, in the same way you would get an impression of differing colours. If they were just plain white with no patterning then I think that would have been obvious to JT.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:22:08 AM
There was a street lamp shining straight on him on the opposite corner. He was walking almost directly towards it. It was actually very slightly to the south of his path so would provide very good illumination for Jane T to see.
And as a woman on her own after dark, she would be watching any strange man like a hawk
The light certainly wasn't bright enough to pick out the very small pattern on the child's pyjamas.
And as to Tanner being alone, she wasn't. Gerry and Jez were there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:33:05 AM
But even if you couldn't see the design in detail, you would get an impression of one, in the same way you would get an impression of differing colours. If they were just plain white with no patterning then I think that would have been obvious to JT.
Look at the picture I posted. The pattern isn't that distinct even in broad daylight with all the camera lights around.
Besides the trousers would have reached just below the knee when worn standing up. The way the child was lying would mean the trousers would have been almost invisible to Tanner with only the legs visible.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 11:37:08 AM
Look at the picture I posted. The pattern isn't that distinct even in broad daylight with all the camera lights around.
Besides the trousers would have reached just below the knee when worn standing up. The way the child was lying would mean the trousers would have been almost invisible to Tanner with only the legs visible.
We don't know how much of the trousers JT could see. Only she knows that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 11:37:37 AM
The distance between points 4 and 8 looks more than five metres to me
We don't know how much of the trousers JT could see. Only she knows that.
True, & it also depends on what type of recall JT has, some people have photographic memories & are able to describe what they have seen in much more detail than others. Seen from the side, a man carrying a child, perfectly possible for her to have seen bottom of PJ legs of the child, even if legs weren't full length.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:51:19 AM
This question is very easy to be answered : reconstruction.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 11:52:46 AM
Yes, such a pity Amaral & the PJ decided against doing a reconstruction in 2007, wasn't it?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:56:06 AM
Yes, such a pity Amaral & the PJ decided against doing a reconstruction in 2007, wasn't it?
They didn't decided against, but didn't decided for on time ! Actually when they thought of it, the place was invaded by tourists and media. Anyway, the reconstruction planned in April 2008 would at least have resolved the pyjama's issue.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 12:00:04 PM
Yes, they decided against it, Amaral says so in his book.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 12:01:09 PM
True, & it also depends on what type of recall JT has, some people have photographic memories & are able to describe what they have seen in much more detail than others. Seen from the side, a man carrying a child, perfectly possible for her to have seen bottom of PJ legs of the child, even if legs weren't full length.
Then we will have to agree to differ.
Now if Tanner's powers of observation and skill in recall are as highly honed as her sighting would suggest why couldn't she remember Gerry being on the other side of the road ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 12:10:54 PM
So Amaral decided against THe reconstruction in 2007 ... and mentions it in his book
The team of investigators, of which Amaral was the coordinator, decided it.
Amaral's book - "The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices"
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 12:11:38 PM
Now if Tanner's powers of observation and skill in recall are as highly honed as her sighting would suggest why couldn't she remember Gerry being on the other side of the road ?
Because that is not where she remembers seeing him. And she hasn't changed her mind about that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:14:11 PM
Yes, such a pity Amaral & the PJ decided against doing a reconstruction in 2007, wasn't it?
Neither Amaral or the PJ had any part in the decision not to stage a reconstruction in 2007, but of course you know that already.
So if the McCanns and their tapas friends were willing to do a reconstruction in 2007, without it being televised as that is not done in Portugal, why weren't they willing to go back in 2008 ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:18:10 PM
You don't need to go to Portugal to reconstruct a man carrying a little girl in pajamas. All the details are known so that could be done anywhere. IMO
The archiving report sets out exactly why a reconstruction at the exact location of the sighting was needed :
1 – The physical, real and effective proximity between Jane Tanner, Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, at the moment when the first person walked by them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, in our perspective, strange that neither Gerald McCann nor Jeremy Wilkins saw her, or the alleged abductor, despite the exiguity of the space and the peacefulness of the area;
2 – The situation concerning the window to the bedroom where Madeleine slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to Kate. It seemed then necessary to clarify if there was a draught, since movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which, eventually, could be verified through the reconstitution;
3 – The establishment of a timeline and of a line of effective checking on the minors that were left alone in the apartments, given that, if it is believed that such checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, at least, very difficult to reunite conditions for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said abductor, with the child, namely through a window with scarce space. It is added that the supposed abductor could only pass, through that window, holding the minor in a different position (vertical) from the one that witness JANE TANNER saw (horizontal);
4 – What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. – the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings – and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy – at around 10 p.m.;
5 – The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:19:31 PM
Because that is not where she remembers seeing him. And she hasn't changed her mind about that.
So Gerry is wrong then ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 12:20:05 PM
So who is claiming that Amaral a) was NOT part of the team of investigators or b) that he's lying when he states:
Amaral's book - "The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices"
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 12:24:08 PM
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 09, 2013, 12:26:01 PM
Faith
Quote
So Gerry is wrong then ?
We have altready accertained that Gerry remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez almost certianly got it right.. Didn't you read it Faith?
Purleaze lets not start this all over again!
From: Sadies Theory thread
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1327.15 Reply 27 (unless things get deleted!)
It is the same alleyway corner that Jane very definitely indicates on the video. THE ALLEYWAY CORNER
@ 10.08 (suggest view from before 10.00). Then Jane srying at 12.30
I think Gerry remembered part crossing the road and forgot the change of direction back to the alleyway corner. The confusion in his mind after the trauma of realising that Madeleine had been taken, wiped part of the memory away. I suffered similar problems after my little boy died from his brain tumour. It went on for months, in my case.
Jez is very clear in his rogatory statement drawing. THE ALLEYWAY CORNER
Some extracts from Jez wilkins Rogatory Statement below: My emboldening and colour http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
SNIP/- Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner. Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period.
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him.. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where. /SNIP-
SNIP/- Q. Relative to the time we conversed; I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions. The conversation lasted for approximately three to five minutes. We spoke of the care of children and how they were getting along. He told me something like 'he was on night duty'. I explained to him that I was returning to the apartment as my son was now sleeping. I assumed that Gerry was off to dine with the group in the Tapas bar, but I cannot precisely say this came from him or if I figured this out from our previous conversations regarding the checking system for the children. I remember that Gerry told me if he had stayed another week, he would likely do as I was doing and would stay with the children one night. It appeared as though he was jealous of what I was doing, but given that he was with a big group, he felt the obligation to meet with them every night, and the chosen location was the Tapas bar. I believe that there was some sort of agreement with the tapas Bar as they appeared to have a reservation every night and it was impossible for other guests to book at spot there.
I do not know if we were face to face or side to side when this conversation occurred. As I had the pram with me I was rocking it so my son could sleep, it seems to me that I was in the downward direction, but it is possible that I was in the opposite direction.
I do not remember having seen anyone else at this time besides Gerry. After leaving each other, Gerry walked downward in the direction of the Tapas Bar and I began to walk in the other direction, up the pathway. I turned left at the crossing and passed the apartment. I did not meet anyone else during my walk and once in my apartment, I did not venture out again.
/SNIP-
As I said before: The statement says that Jez left the little side street car park (across the road from the tapas reception) and saw Gerry walking on the other side the street. This means that Gerry had left the steps and was thru the garden gate walking towards the Tapas as Jez saw him, so they did NOT meet at the steps / gate ... but considerably further down
This confirms it all, Gery remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez got it right. THere is another drawing illustrating where Jez said thgey talked. Will post it if you cant be bothered to go and find it.
Also this drawing done by Jez, clearly shows that he and Gerry were talking on the corner of the alleyway just south of 5A gate.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:27:18 PM
The team of investigators, of which Amaral was the coordinator, decided it.
Amaral's book - "The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices"
That does not make it clear who made the ultimate decision.
Anyway Mrs B, do you not think that the details that necessitated clarification with a reconstruction in 2007, and set out in the archiving report which I have posted, could just as easily have been clarified in 2008, without any danger to the McCanns and their friends ? That is, of course, if they were telling the truth.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:30:42 PM
Forensic examination of the timeline perhaps but the PJ weren't looking at time but rather space and that couldn't be done anywhere else but where the event happened.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:36:29 PM
Faith We have altready accertained that Gerry remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez almost certianly got it right.. Didn't you read it Faith?
Purleaze lets not start this all over again!
From: Sadies Theory thread
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1327.15 Reply 27 (unless things get deleted!)
It is the same alleyway corner that Jane very definitely indicates on the video. THE ALLEYWAY CORNER
@ 10.08 (suggest view from before 10.00). Then Jane srying at 12.30
I think Gerry remembered part crossing the road and forgot the change of direction back to the alleyway corner. The confusion in his mind after the trauma of realising that Madeleine had been taken, wiped part of the memory away. I suffered similar problems after my little boy died from his brain tumour. It went on for months, in my case.
Jez is very clear in his rogatory statement drawing. THE ALLEYWAY CORNER
Some extracts from Jez wilkins Rogatory Statement below: My emboldening and colour http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
SNIP/- Whilst walking the streets, I was hoping my son would fall asleep. Some of the walkways did not have an exit and for this reason I walked practically in circles. When walking one of these paths, I came across a tourist called Curtis with his girlfriend whose name I do not know. He also knew Gerry from the tennis lessons. I remember passing by them but I assumed they were headed to dinner. Eventually, I left one road to the other side of the street to the pool complex, between the McCann apartment and the Tapas Bar. In order to visualise this street, I believe it was the street most used by the news agencies and journalists as all the parked cars indicated during the coverage period.
When I left the street, I remember seeing Gerry on the other side of the same. I believe that there was some speculation in the press regarding the circumstances of this encounter. I remember that I crossed the street to talk to Gerry According to what I remember, Gerry was walking when I spotted him.. As I mentioned previously, I assumed that he had gone to check on the children and was headed back to the Tapas Bar. From what I remember, the conversation happened right there on the pathway but I am not certain who was located exactly where. /SNIP-
SNIP/- Q. Relative to the time we conversed; I am more certain of this than I am of our relative positions. The conversation lasted for approximately three to five minutes. We spoke of the care of children and how they were getting along. He told me something like 'he was on night duty'. I explained to him that I was returning to the apartment as my son was now sleeping. I assumed that Gerry was off to dine with the group in the Tapas bar, but I cannot precisely say this came from him or if I figured this out from our previous conversations regarding the checking system for the children. I remember that Gerry told me if he had stayed another week, he would likely do as I was doing and would stay with the children one night. It appeared as though he was jealous of what I was doing, but given that he was with a big group, he felt the obligation to meet with them every night, and the chosen location was the Tapas bar. I believe that there was some sort of agreement with the tapas Bar as they appeared to have a reservation every night and it was impossible for other guests to book at spot there.
I do not know if we were face to face or side to side when this conversation occurred. As I had the pram with me I was rocking it so my son could sleep, it seems to me that I was in the downward direction, but it is possible that I was in the opposite direction.
I do not remember having seen anyone else at this time besides Gerry. After leaving each other, Gerry walked downward in the direction of the Tapas Bar and I began to walk in the other direction, up the pathway. I turned left at the crossing and passed the apartment. I did not meet anyone else during my walk and once in my apartment, I did not venture out again.
/SNIP-
As I said before: The statement says that Jez left the little side street car park (across the road from the tapas reception) and saw Gerry walking on the other side the street. This means that Gerry had left the steps and was thru the garden gate walking towards the Tapas as Jez saw him, so they did NOT meet at the steps / gate ... but considerably further down
This confirms it all, Gery remembered it wrongly and Jane and Jez got it right. THere is another drawing illustrating where Jez said thgey talked. Will post it if you cant be bothered to go and find it.
Also this drawing done by Jez, clearly shows that he and Gerry were talking on the corner of the alleyway just south of 5A gate.
Had we ? Well that's a step forward.
Odd anyone ever thought there was any need for a review when they could have simply come to you eh sadie ?{)(**
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 12:42:24 PM
Which facts show what ? There was opportunity after 9:30 as well.
That's all Scotland Yard have decided to divulge, unfortunately, looks like they don't think they have the obligation to provide a running day to day public information service re the investigation for the benefit of every Tom, Dick & Harry out there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:51:25 PM
That's all Scotland Yard have decided to divulge, unfortunately, looks like they don't think they have the obligation to provide a running day to day public information service re the investigation for the benefit of every Tom, Dick & Harry out there.
They shouldn't be 'divulging' any information at all, especially when only a quarter of the way through the data.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 12:56:49 PM
No, you can do it in a much BETTER way on a computers, as you can re-create the exact conditions at the exact time of the event on a computer, such as weather conditions, lighting, movable objects such as vehicles, vegetation, exact position of sun/moon (determining visibility) at the time etc which you cannot do in a real life reconstruction.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 12:59:49 PM
No, you can do it in a much BETTER way on a computers, as you can re-create the exact conditions at the exact time of the event on a computer, such as weather conditions, lighting, movable objects such as vehicles, vegetation, exact position of sun/moon (determining visibility) at the time etc which you cannot do in a real life reconstruction.
And the reactions of the individuals involved ? How do you replicate those ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
They shouldn't be 'divulging' any information at all, especially when only a quarter of the way through the data.
Agreed, but isn't it half by now ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 01:02:26 PM
Think you can safely leave that decision to Scotland Yard, seems they already had enough information to form their opinion. & btw, as the appeal from last year, outlining that opinion, is still to be found on the Metropolitan Police's own youtube channel, not been amended or taken down, so it looks like their stance hasn't changed at all since then.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 01:04:15 PM
LOL You don't think you can program in "space" in a virtual reconstructions done on computers?
Even the simplest interior decorating/garden design programs do that, & DID so in 2007 too.
Magalhães e Menezes is supposed to know better : The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 01:07:10 PM
Yes, he SHOULD have known better, surely, he must have been aware that there are, & were, computer programs available that could have achieved the objective, long before 2007. Or maybe not.....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 01:11:58 PM
Yes, he SHOULD have known better, surely, he must have been aware that there are, & were, computer programs available that could have achieved the objective, long before 2007. Or maybe not.....
And would the police have seen Gerry try to override Tanner's recollection of where he stood that night by using a computer ? Anomalies like that is exactly something the PJ would have been looking for.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 01:14:46 PM
Yes, EVERY variation of any scenario could have been examined, that's why modern police forces tend to use computers these days, instead of real life reconstructions.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 01:16:38 PM
Magalhães e Menezes is supposed to know better : The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
Of course and no fancy programme can replace Tanners own good or bad eyesight
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 01:22:29 PM
Eyesight can be tested, it's done regularly. Go to Specsavers & ask them, they do it for free.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 01:31:09 PM
Yes, he SHOULD have known better, surely, he must have been aware that there are, & were, computer programs available that could have achieved the objective, long before 2007. Or maybe not.....
Come on ! Magalhães e Menezes was likely aware but didn't think a program could achieve as well as a reconstruction. Your argument wasn't used by the TP group as a pretext to reject it. A program might inform whether or not a normal person could see the design of a pyjama in a certain distance and with a certain lighting. But I don't think a program is able to determine whether that same person could pass two men without being seen nor heard in a less than 2 m distance. Common sense says likely not. And the "independent" JW says the same. I guess one of reasons why the PGR wanted this scene to be reconstructed is that Mr McCann insisted against JW and JT he had crossed the street, when he had no reason for that since JW was going back home and had to cross it.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 01:35:25 PM
Yes, EVERY variation of any scenario could have been examined, that's why modern police forces tend to use computers these days, instead of real life reconstructions.
Let's hope you're right and that one day, thanks to computing, the Yard will at least explain what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 01:41:54 PM
Let's hope you're right and that one day, thanks to computing, the Yard will at least explain what happened to Madeleine.
Well they have already established by the forensic analysis of the timelines that there was clearly an opportunity for Madeleine to have been removed from the apartment.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 01:46:34 PM
Well they have already established by the forensic analysis of the timelines that there was clearly an opportunity for Madeleine to have been removed from the apartment.
. This is no revelation. Have you a link for the "clearly" ? Even without a computer program the PGR didn't discard it, though not "clear".
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 01:54:52 PM
Well they have already established by the forensic analysis of the timelines that there was clearly an opportunity for Madeleine to have been removed from the apartment.
You can really not make it clearer than Scotland Yard does here -
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Milly on June 09, 2013, 02:02:47 PM
All hot air and spin for we haven't got a bloody clue. @)(++(*
DCI Redwood >>"I believe she is still alive because...one, she is alive and two, sadly she's not. There is a real possiblity that she's alive."
Thus he just construed his initial assertion. With logic like this God help you Madeleine.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 02:06:11 PM
Quite normal that WE don't have a clue, WE are not supposed to, WE are not law enforcement.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:09:32 PM
You can really not make it clearer than Scotland Yard does here -
Thanks ! So his forensic timeline analysis (through computer program) shows a "clear opportunity". Unfortunately it wasn't enough to convince the PGR. But this was one year back, since then 37 full time working officers must have found more.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:12:17 PM
All hot air and spin for we haven't got a bloody clue. @)(++(*
DCI Redwood >>"I believe she is still alive because...one, she is alive and two, sadly she's not. There is a real possiblity that she's alive."
Thus he just construed his initial assertion. With logic like this God help you Madeleine.
Yes I laughed about this strange logic in another thread where I underlined all his "I/we believe", something nobody in the world is expecting from the Yard.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:14:04 PM
Here is a graphic showing how the appearance of the abductor has morphed over 6 years. @)(++(*
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 09, 2013, 02:17:23 PM
It is very interesting that both Jane Tanner and Smith both say the man with the child did not resemble a tourist. Also the age of the man the height and what he was wearing are very similar. Add that to the fact that they both carried a child aged about 3/4, with blonde hair,wearing light coloured pyjama's who had bare feet, and it would sound as though it was the same person that they saw.
As to the frill on the bottom of the pyjama's, Jane said at first she had said she thought it was a turn up on the bottom of the pyjama's, then she learned that Madeleine's pyjama's had a frill on the bottom of them which could have been what she saw.
Also another point someone made that Madeleine's pyjama's were shorts and so Jane wouldn't have been able to see the bottom of them. Remember Madeleine was small for her age, so the shorts could have been longer on her than they would have been on a taller child of her age.
Is it possible this man met up with an accompolice before carrying on down to the beach area? Maybe as there was a certain time and place he had to be at?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 02:18:17 PM
One has to admit that most of those gentlemen are freaking out, as in tales. I can't think of Madeleine opening her eyes on them : no nightmare but reality !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:25:53 PM
This was NOT Jane Tanners photfit. I am surprised that you didn't know that.
I feel sure that you wouldn't want to create a new myth. 8(>((
You are correct of course Sadie. The above sketch was based on an interview with Gail Cooper, a grandmother from Nottinghamshire, who originally gave a statement to police in May 2009.
PS. I have corrected the original post and those which followed. TY
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:27:55 PM
One has to admit that most of those gentlemen are freaking out, as in tales. I can't think of Madeleine opening her eyes on them : no nightmare but reality !
John, you made me laugh so much yesterday night, I almost woke up to laugh ! I have to say thank you !
eh?? This is a serious matter Anne!!! @)(++(* (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c045.gif)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:57:01 PM
The News of the World claimed the detailed artist's impression was generated using information from a holidaymaker, who had been staying 600 yards from the McCanns in Praia da Luz. The associate editor of the News of the world, Gary Thompson, told Sky News: "The real significance is that the sketch has been shown to Jane Tanner, a member of the so-called Tapas Group. "You may remember she says she saw a man carrying a child. "We understand that Jane Tanner has confirmed the likeness."
Yet she never saw the guys face...now that is an astounding even humendous ability! 8)-)))
The language of Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' public face, was unequivocal as he addressed the media from a lectern in a London hotel. "Who is he? Where is he? What, if any, is his connection to Madeleine's disappearance?" he said. "If he is innocent, we want him to come forward for his own sake so he can be ruled out. We believe this man could be linked to Madeleine's disappearance."
It is very interesting that both Jane Tanner and Smith both say the man with the child did not resemble a tourist. Also the age of the man the height and what he was wearing are very similar. Add that to the fact that they both carried a child aged about 3/4, with blonde hair,wearing light coloured pyjama's who had bare feet, and it would sound as though it was the same person that they saw.
As to the frill on the bottom of the pyjama's, Jane said at first she had said she thought it was a turn up on the bottom of the pyjama's, then she learned that Madeleine's pyjama's had a frill on the bottom of them which could have been what she saw.
Also another point someone made that Madeleine's pyjama's were shorts and so Jane wouldn't have been able to see the bottom of them. Remember Madeleine was small for her age, so the shorts could have been longer on her than they would have been on a taller child of her age.
Is it possible this man met up with an accompolice before carrying on down to the beach area? Maybe as there was a certain time and place he had to be at?
Madeleine's pyjama bottoms were not shorts, nor was the top long sleeved, Lace, as some have said.
The photographs of the pyjamas three year old Madeleine was wearing were circulated to journalists, some three days after The Resident received the same photographs from Marks & Spencer and five days after The Resident received a description of the same pyjamas.
It appears that while the authorities have searched more than 200 Km2, they are still no nearer to finding Madeleine or the people that may have taken her.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 03:35:16 PM
@ DCI
The trousers would have come just below the knew when the child was standing and would have rode up the leg if the child was being carried as Tanner recalls, making it impossible to discern any pattern.
As to the top, please explain ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 09, 2013, 03:43:25 PM
How do you know where the trousers would have ended?
As I said Madeleine was small for her age they could very well have fallen lower than that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 03:48:02 PM
The trousers would have come just below the knew when the child was standing and would have rode up the leg if the child was being carried as Tanner recalls, making it impossible to discern any pattern.
As to the top, please explain ?
I didn't say they wouldn't. I said they were not shorts! Top ammended, not long sleeved, I meant.
All hot air and spin for we haven't got a bloody clue. @)(++(*
DCI Redwood >>"I believe she is still alive because...one, she is alive and two, sadly she's not. There is a real possiblity that she's alive."
Thus he just construed his initial assertion. With logic like this God help you Madeleine.
I took that to mean that - although they believed she was alive when she was abducted from the apartment - because no-one knows why she was abducted, they did not know whether she had been kept alive or had been murdered.
Which is different to Amaral's theory that she died in the apartment.
I thought that was the message Andy Redwood was putting across.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 04:08:31 PM
Even if she had been in the upright position, the pants wouldn't have gone as far as on the faceless man sketch. Why shouldn't Madeleine have a normal size ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 09, 2013, 04:24:09 PM
The News of the World claimed the detailed artist's impression was generated using information from a holidaymaker, who had been staying 600 yards from the McCanns in Praia da Luz. The associate editor of the News of the world, Gary Thompson, told Sky News: "The real significance is that the sketch has been shown to Jane Tanner, a member of the so-called Tapas Group. "You may remember she says she saw a man carrying a child. "We understand that Jane Tanner has confirmed the likeness."
Someone with longish hair in the back... Trying to imagine a side view, it may have been that person, or it may not have been. All she could really do is not exclude the possiblity.
There would presumably be a closer resemblance to that person than to a hypothetical passing teenager with a Mohican pink hairdo, a skinhead or a an octogenarian on a zimmer frame.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 05:08:11 PM
Someone with longish hair in the back... Trying to imagine a side view, it may have been that person, or it may not have been. All she could really do is not exclude the possiblity.
There would presumably be a closer resemblance to that person than to a hypothetical passing teenager with a Mohican pink hairdo, a skinhead or a an octogenarian on a zimmer frame.
It wasnt a matter of not excluding him, she said he bore an 80% resemblance. A rather big leap! How she missed his handlebar moustache though but noticed the creases in his trousers....besides there are issues with coopers stories but thats for another time
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 09, 2013, 05:31:42 PM
Madeleine's pyjama bottoms were not shorts, nor was the top long sleeved, Lace, as some have said.
***
DCI no one has said Madeleine wore long sleeved pyjamas. One of the Smiths said the child they saw wore such.
They looked like three quarter length shorts to me.
The man the Smith's saw could have had his arm across the arms of the child when carrying her, making it impossible to see if the pyjama's were short sleeves.
If then the person saw the top of the pyjama sleeves the person presumed they were long sleeves.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 05:42:43 PM
The News of the World claimed the detailed artist's impression was generated using information from a holidaymaker, who had been staying 600 yards from the McCanns in Praia da Luz. The associate editor of the News of the world, Gary Thompson, told Sky News: "The real significance is that the sketch has been shown to Jane Tanner, a member of the so-called Tapas Group. "You may remember she says she saw a man carrying a child. "We understand that Jane Tanner has confirmed the likeness."
Yet she never saw the guys face...now that is an astounding even humendous ability! 8)-)))
The language of Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' public face, was unequivocal as he addressed the media from a lectern in a London hotel. "Who is he? Where is he? What, if any, is his connection to Madeleine's disappearance?" he said. "If he is innocent, we want him to come forward for his own sake so he can be ruled out. We believe this man could be linked to Madeleine's disappearance."
GAIL COOPER says she will never forget the day she stared into the “dead eyes” of the man she believes abducted Madeleine McCann
I note it is Gary Thompson, an Assoc. Editor of the News of the World who says - ''We understand that JT has confirmed the likeness'' which is a million miles away from saying.. ''We know JT has confirmed the likeness''. From his choice of words I would say it's just another one of those dubious 'newspaper claims'. IMO
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 05:51:46 PM
And we wouldn't be here soliciting our imagination, sometimes too far.. had they not rejected.. Thinking the non involvement could have been established ! Would we be here ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 05:56:01 PM
You see Lace, that's why a proper, police reconstruction where these anomalies could be ironed out.
They are obviously not anomalies in the eyes of the UK police, only in the eyes of some armchair sleuths - who have an agenda quite different to that of SY. IMHO
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 05:58:26 PM
yes maybe, still, *even* if that was the case, how can someone who didnt see a face give such a high probability just from the hair, besides which one looks like they have been dragged backwards through a hedge and the other like they just came out of the hairdressers
!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 06:04:28 PM
I note it is Gary Thompson, an Assoc. Editor of the News of the World who says - ''We understand that JT has confirmed the likeness'' which is a million miles away from saying.. ''We know JT has confirmed the likeness''. From his choice of words I would say it's just another one of those dubious 'newspaper claims'. IMO
Not a dubious claim
See here in the powerpoint presentations, scroll down
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POWERPOINT.htm
At least the words have been attributed to Jane Tanner, whether she said that or someone claims she said that from within Team Mccann, who knows >@@(*&)
See here in the powerpoint presentations, scroll down
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POWERPOINT.htm
At least the words have been attributed to Jane Tanner, whether she said that or someone claims she said that from within Team Mccann, who knows >@@(*&)
Quote After seeing the sketches produced by Melissa Little with Gail Cooper, Jane Tanner believes that there is an 80% likelihood that this is the same man she saw carrying away the child believed to be Madeleine'' Unquote
That statement refers to ''sketches'' (plural) not just one picture of a man's face. Those two witnesses would have given descriptions of the entire man, not just his face. I've always thought that the 20 percent that Jane could not corroberrate was his face.
She also says that although she was happy with the picture of a man carrying a child which had been produced, she was not happy with his face, and so it was blanked out. That would concur with her rogatory statement in which she says she didn't see his face, only a side view of him.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: DCI on June 09, 2013, 06:26:38 PM
Quote After seeing the sketches produced by Melissa Little with Gail Cooper, Jane Tanner believes that there is an 80% likelihood that this is the same man she saw carrying away the child believed to be Madeleine'' Unquote
That statement refers to ''sketches'' (plural) not just one picture of a man's face. Those two witnesses would have given descriptions of the entire man, not just his face. I've always thought that the 20 percent that Jane could not corroberrate was his face.
She also says that although she was happy with the picture of a man carrying a child which had been produced, she was not happy with his face, and so it was blanked out. That would concur with her rogatory statement in which she says she didn't see his face, only a side view of him.
so what was the 60% she could corroborate?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 07:17:25 PM
I don't know - I haven't seen the sketches which JT was shown. But it is clear by the reference to 'sketches' that she not simply shown one man's face, which it is being claimed she agreed was 80 per cent like the man she saw.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 08:12:27 PM
Read my link at 6.04pm page back or so
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 08:29:00 PM
This is a picture of Raymond Hewlett, the convicted paedophile taken ages ago as a couple years ago he looked more like davos out of dr who without his dalek machine on and on his deathbed with cancer and in a wheelchair with about 20 hairs on his head,....and next to it is a sketch by mrs cooper curtesy of the police sketch artist commissioned by team mccan/brian kennedy/metodo 3, not sure, is it me or does this look contrived, to anyone or is it just me,did gail cooper describe him as walking along withhands in pockets, thought she just shut the door on him when he came begging for donations??? http://raymondhewlett.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/hewlett-mccann-abductor-sketch.html
how on earth they could connect tanners or the smiths sighting or anyone elses with this is beyond logic
Thing is also, helwett has been compared to coopers moustachey man, when in fact cooper published pictures courtesy of the news of the world showing how her friend snapped him on the beach a few hours before he came to her house, only unfortunately the man they snapped had short hair was smart dressed and had no big moustache 8-)(--)
How does one grow a moustache and hair in two hours???? Too many liars in this case.......
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 09:02:27 PM
Quote Melissa Little, Qualified Police Sketch Artist..... met with JT and Gail Cooper to produce the sketches from their recollections of the sightings of the man. These meetings were held on separate occasions.
After spending many hours with both witnesses ''there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's. Unquote
Its clear from that - that ML saw JT and GC separately and it is HER opinion after spending many hours with both women that .....'there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's''. IMO it would be those similarities to which JT refers. However whereas GC could describe the whole of the man including his face i.e. 100 percent, JT could only comment on 80 percent of GC's description because she hadn't seen his face.
To claim that during the many hours spent with both JT and GC they only discussed and produced one picture of a man's face is urealistic. IMO The man's face that is shown is the one they decided to print from GC's description, along with the full length piccie of the man from JT's description - which doesn't show a face at all.
Well that's the way I see it anyway.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 09:06:55 PM
Quote Melissa Little, Qualified Police Sketch Artist..... met with JT and Gail Cooper to produce the sketches from their recollections of the sightings of the man. These meetings were held on separate occasions.
After spending many hours with both witnesses ''there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's. Unquote
Its clear from that - that ML saw JT and GC separately and it is HER opinion after spending many hours with both women that .....'there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's''. IMO it would be those similarities to which JT refers. However whereas GC could describe the whole of the man including his face i.e. 100 percent, JT could only comment on 80 percent of GC's description because she hadn't seen his face.
To claim that during the many hours spent with both JT and GC they only discussed and produced one picture of a man's face is urealistic. IMO The man's face that is shown is the one they decided to print from GC's description, along with the full length piccie of the man from JT's description - which doesn't show a face at all.
Well that's the way I see it anyway.
Yes must be no worries end of except why did the police artist take licence to sketch a pink top of the girl carried when tanner said all she saw was a pair of legs!
Oh and btw lace if you are still reading, tanner did not mention a girl with blonde hair, so no, that was NOT a similarity with the Smith sighting
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 09, 2013, 09:19:40 PM
Quote Melissa Little, Qualified Police Sketch Artist..... met with JT and Gail Cooper to produce the sketches from their recollections of the sightings of the man. These meetings were held on separate occasions.
After spending many hours with both witnesses ''there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's. Unquote
Its clear from that - that ML saw JT and GC separately and it is HER opinion after spending many hours with both women that .....'there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's''. IMO it would be those similarities to which JT refers. However whereas GC could describe the whole of the man including his face i.e. 100 percent, JT could only comment on 80 percent of GC's description because she hadn't seen his face.
To claim that during the many hours spent with both JT and GC they only discussed and produced one picture of a man's face is urealistic. IMO The man's face that is shown is the one they decided to print from GC's description, along with the full length piccie of the man from JT's description - which doesn't show a face at all.
Well that's the way I see it anyway.
Do you see 'many similarities' in the two men Benice ? ( I can't see any at all myself other than they appear to have a similar build )
I really don't see how Jane Tanner can say anyone is, or even could be the man she saw that night ... if she was shown a thousand sketches she wouldn't be able to affirm whether any were the man she saw, because she didn't 'see' his face
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 09:30:15 PM
Do you see 'many similarities' in the two men Benice ? ( I can't see any at all myself other than they appear to have a similar build )
I really don't see how Jane Tanner can say anyone is, or even could be the man she saw that night ... if she was shown a thousand sketches she wouldn't be able to affirm whether any were the man she saw, because she didn't 'see' his face
Well it would be possible for JT to say ''that is definitely NOT the man I saw'', if Gail's description was for instance of a little fat bald man with a long grey beard. But from the description she saw it could have been the man IHO.
The descriptions were given to the Artist separately and it was she who noticed the similarities.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 09:34:49 PM
Well it would be possible for JT to say ''that is definitely NOT the man I saw'', if Gail's description was for instance of a little fat bald man with a long grey beard. But from the description she saw it could have been the man IHO.
The descriptions were given to the Artist separately and it was she who noticed the similarities.
Could have been to 80 per cent sure it was is so different its bloody shocking you are defending this utter bloody nonsense
Had enough of the apologisers here for another day zzzz
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 09:41:32 PM
If you didn't "see" a face but saw little flowers on pants or noticed light shoe heels, this is called selective seeing. Jane T was obviously conscious of this and of the discredit it implied, so she felt like agreeing with whatever face they were showing her. Poor Jane.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 09:50:30 PM
If you didn't "see" a face but saw little flowers on pants or noticed light shoe heels, this is called selective seeing. Jane T was obviously conscious of this and of the discredit it implied, so she felt like agreeing with whatever face they were showing her. Poor Jane.
Tanner was probably leant on imo at some stage or just told to shut up, most normal people would do with nefarious people around oh well, poor maddie andnasty little piggy s..mbags that made hee do so, oooh wonder who
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 10:00:22 PM
Quote Melissa Little, Qualified Police Sketch Artist..... met with JT and Gail Cooper to produce the sketches from their recollections of the sightings of the man. These meetings were held on separate occasions.
After spending many hours with both witnesses ''there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's.Unquote
Its clear from that - that ML saw JT and GC separately and it is HER opinion after spending many hours with both women that .....'there are many similarities between Jane Tanner's man and Gail's''. IMO it would be those similarities to which JT refers. However whereas GC could describe the whole of the man including his face i.e. 100 percent, JT could only comment on 80 percent of GC's description because she hadn't seen his face.
To claim that during the many hours spent with both JT and GC they only discussed and produced one picture of a man's face is urealistic. IMO The man's face that is shown is the one they decided to print from GC's description, along with the full length piccie of the man from JT's description - which doesn't show a face at all.
Well that's the way I see it anyway.
As a qualified Police Sketch Artist, I am sure, she was in the best position to identify similarities.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2013, 10:08:04 PM
What is sbould? As a professional police sketch artist she had the licence to sketch within her scope of practice.
Its a spelling mistake OBVIOUSLY as WELL YOU know. and NO, a sketch artists sketches what witnesses see, not what they DIDNT!!! What a stupid post, it is NOT in their remit to add bits cos theywant to, see what a joke
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 10:30:08 PM
Its a spelling mistake OBVIOUSLY as WELL YOU know. and NO, a sketch artists sketches what witnesses see, not what they DIDNT!!! What a stupid post, it is NOT in their remit to add bits cos theywant to, see what a joke
No need to shout. If a sketch artist is not told either by a witness or the parents, what the child was last wearing, what is the artist suppose to sketch the child in? Leave her naked with a message, witness did not see what she had on as a top. Or don't you think the artist would have been told what the child went to bed in, was last seen in, was wearing when she was taken so that she can sketch as accurate a representation as possible?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 10:39:36 PM
No need to shout. If a sketch artist is not told either by a witness or the parents, what the child was last wearing, what is the artist suppose to sketch the child in? Leave her naked with a message, witness did not see what she had on as a top. Or don't you think the artist would have been told what the child went to bed in, was last seen in, was wearing when she was taken so that she can sketch as accurate a representation as possible?
Of course she would, who do people think police artists do sketches FOR in the first place? It's not so they can keep pretty pictures on their files, or hang them up in their offices, it's for the benefit of the PUBLIC, in order to trigger memories of potential witnesses.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 10:40:49 PM
They are obviously not anomalies in the eyes of the UK police, only in the eyes of some armchair sleuths - who have an agenda quite different to that of SY. IMHO
SY would not be able to request a reconstruction so the point is academic.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 10:44:06 PM
No need to shout. If a sketch artist is not told either by a witness or the parents, what the child was last wearing, what is the artist suppose to sketch the child in? Leave her naked with a message, witness did not see what she had on as a top. Or don't you think the artist would have been told what the child went to bed in, was last seen in, was wearing when she was taken so that she can sketch as accurate a representation as possible?
Sketch artist is to sketch what a WITNESS saw not what the parents say what pyjamas they put their kid into bed with
The sketch was NOT of maddie in bed last seen byher parents but of Maddie SEEN being whisked away by a stranger by Jane Tanner in the street wearing her pjs,sheesh gone
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 10:49:12 PM
I observe that photographs of toddler Madeleine are still published in newspapers. In 2007 it was counterproductive (unless the objective was mainly to disturb the public), but now it's frankly ludicrous.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 10:50:29 PM
Sketch artist is to sketch what a WITNESS saw not what the parents say what they pyjamas they put their kid into bed with
Think about what you just posted Redblossom.
Hypothetically speaking - When (God forbid) your child goes missing. You are the last person to have seen her/him and you will be asked by the police for the description of the clothing the child was in when you last saw him/her. That would go into the description of the sketch. You would be the last witness to have witnesses what the child was wearing.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 10:51:29 PM
No need to shout. If a sketch artist is not told either by a witness or the parents, what the child was last wearing, what is the artist suppose to sketch the child in? Leave her naked with a message, witness did not see what she had on as a top. Or don't you think the artist would have been told what the child went to bed in, was last seen in, was wearing when she was taken so that she can sketch as accurate a representation as possible?
If the purpose of the sketch was to identify if it was the missing child being carried then the artist should not add anything that is not escribed to her. Besides if the child was not carried at an angle where Tanner could see her top, why is the children being drawn in a way that you can ? Rather misleading to say the least.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 10:52:42 PM
LOL No, police sketch artists can use the impressions of several witnesses to draw a sketch of a potential suspects for example, what matters is to draw a picture representing an impression that is as close to reality as possible. All information is taken into account when doing this. It's for the benefit of the PUBLIC, not police.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 10:53:43 PM
I observe that photographs of toddler Madeleine are still published in newspapers. In 2007 it was counterproductive (unless the objective was mainly to disturb the public), but now it's frankly ludicrous.
It could serve to trigger the memory of someone who saw her in 2007. So in my opinion not ludicrous at all.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 10:55:41 PM
LOL No, police sketch artists can use the impressions of several witnesses to draw a sketch of a potential suspects for example, what matters is to draw a picture representing an impression that is as close to reality as possible. All information is taken into account when doing this. It's for the benefit of the PUBLIC, not police.
But if the actual top was later found to be totally different from the one sketched that would be very misleading to the public, I'm sure you'll agree, and counterproductive.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 10:57:50 PM
It could serve to trigger the memory of someone who saw her in 2007. So in my opinion not ludicrous at all.
She wasn't a toddler in 2007. There were photographs made in PDL, I wonder why they didn't stick to them instead of showing pictures of a Madeleine as she wasn't any more. The public couldn't but be confused. Really counterproductive.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 10:58:19 PM
Hypothetically speaking - When (God forbid) your child goes missing. You are the last person to have seen her/him and you will be asked by the police for the description of the clothing the child was in when you last saw him/her. That would go into the description of the sketch. You would be the last witness to have witnesses what the child was wearing.
Nope
The last thing worn should NOT be injected artificially into a sighting when the sighter never saw it, and if it was unknown if the sighting WAS of that child hello????
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 10:58:22 PM
If the purpose of the sketch was to identify if it was the missing child being carried then the artist should not add anything that is not escribed to her. Besides if the child was not carried at an angle where Tanner could see her top, why is the children being drawn in a way that you can ? Rather misleading to say the least.
The clothing would have been ascribed to her by the police/police report or the parents. And the sketch's aim is to emphasis the child; what the child looked like and what the child wore. It was not important to get the angle at which she was being carried correct.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 10:59:03 PM
No reason for police to think that the top would have been different, they were looking for a missing child who they knew was wearing that particular pajama when she disappeared. They weren't looking for any other missing child, as no other child had been reported missing.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 10:59:20 PM
She wasn't a toddler in 2007. There were photographs made in PDL, I wonder why they didn't stick to them instead of showing pictures of a Madeleine as she wasn't any more. The public couldn't but be confused. Really counterproductive.
Could you please clarify "as she wasn't any more", thank you.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 11:06:49 PM
So in your opinion the child should be sketched naked.
What a totally pathetic response, the POINT is not what the child was wearing when she went alledgedly missing, the point is what the WITNESSES saw DOH!! And no there is no proof what Tanner saw was Madeleine, YOU think about it see YA!!!!!!!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:07:54 PM
LOL No, police sketch artists can use the impressions of several witnesses to draw a sketch of a potential suspects for example, what matters is to draw a picture representing an impression that is as close to reality as possible. All information is taken into account when doing this. It's for the benefit of the PUBLIC, not police.
Mrs. B, I'm glad you're laughing again, this time may be for the same reason as I do. I really find these sketches, this gallery of freaks, totally implausible. When John pinpointed the George Harrison lookalike, I laughed even more. This is not serious and the public surely felt manipulated.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:11:56 PM
The clothing would have been ascribed to her by the police/police report or the parents. And the sketch's aim is to emphasis the child; what the child looked like and what the child wore. It was not important to get the angle at which she was being carried correct.
The sketch artist sketches exactly what the witness tells them, nothing else or else the sketch would be of no value. Surely even you can see that ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 11:12:29 PM
No, I'm not laughing at that at all. People saw different people & there were several different people of interest to the investigation. That doesn't mean that every person seen on the sketches were supposed "abductors" or even involved, some of them could simply have been witnesses who were seen at a particular place at a particular time & could have information that could be of interest to police.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:13:03 PM
Could you please clarify "as she wasn't any more", thank you.
Mo Stache, there was a time you were a little girl of 2/3, you don't remember but then you were said to be a toddler. You're not 2 any more, for sure, at least you are 7 now, and very likely more.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:13:40 PM
No reason for police to think that the top would have been different, they were looking for a missing child who they knew was wearing that particular pajama when she disappeared. They weren't looking for any other missing child, as no other child had been reported missing.
But the police had no way of knowing that the child being carried was Madeleine. That was what they were trying to find out.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:15:14 PM
No, I'm not laughing at that at all. People saw different people & there were several different people of interest to the investigation. That doesn't mean that every person seen on the sketches were supposed "abductors" or even involved, some of them could simply have been witnesses who were seen at a particular place at a particular time & could have information that could be of interest to police.
I guess you wouldn't laugh if a survey had been done among the public after the publication of one of this grotesque sketches.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:19:03 PM
But the police had no way of knowing that the child being carried was Madeleine. That was what they were trying to find out.
Yes of course. And the worst is that the public feels considered like mentally retarded. With a certain reason. Who will believe that the search for Madeleine is behind this ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on June 09, 2013, 11:19:15 PM
Anne, when mr spottyman was put on the news here on sky the presenter tried hard to hide his laughter !!!!
I understand this very well, Redblossom, as I told John I almost woke up last night just to laugh a bit more ! What makes me laugh is the amazed look of people I can imagine ! BTW the girl who saw spottyguy, like Jane when trying to describe the carrier's pants' colour, couldn't find words and said, as if she was describing anything, "ugly" !!!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 09, 2013, 11:26:24 PM
You understand the purpose ? Really ? So you don't think adding detail that was not apparent at the time would skew any identifications that were obtained ?
There is no point in replying to you on this issue if you don't understand what I am saying.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 09, 2013, 11:28:31 PM
Yes, quite alarming that some actually don't seem to understand it at all.
Sometimes people are blinded by what they think is important and don't really see the bigger picture - that that is truly important.
For arguments sake - If the police sketch artist had only gone by what Tanner had said then the public would have been exposed to a half naked child. Then the police would have had to sketch a second one of her in the pajamas she was last seen in. Two sketches that would confuse the public. It's not only police sketch artist practice to do it the way it was done, but it is also common sense.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 11:33:19 PM
I understand the purpose of a sketch and the way a sketch is compiled unlike those who are unable to understand the concept of a police sketch.
It wasn't a 'police sketch'
This artist ( who is commissioned by the police/FBI on occassion ) is freelance ... is she not ?
When she produced those sketches she was working for the McCanns .... and was being paid by them to produce what they required
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 11:50:37 PM
I think it is a valid point that seemingly is been rubbished by those who think that the police sketch artist should have drawn the sketch exactly as Tanner had described; leaving the detail of the pajama top out of the sketch. Going on what has been said, about accurate representation given by a witness, how should the police artist have drawn her then: 1. naked? or. 2. in something she wasn't wearing when she disappeared?
Both 1 and 2 is not a true representation of what she looked like when she disappeared. Thus defying the purpose of a police sketch.
Those who argue that the sketch artist was supposed to leave out the pajama top will have to give a reply by choose between 1 and 2. Failing to be able to give a reply with a choice between 1 or 2 would validate the point I have been making all along.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 09, 2013, 11:54:12 PM
This so called mystery feeds on archetypal mental representations : the bad one has to look like a monster ! Ridiculous. As when Mrs McCann states that copperman could well be bundleman, forgetting likely that the Smith carrier has some similarity with Mr McCann !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 09, 2013, 11:55:09 PM
This artist ( who is commissioned by the police/FBI on occassion ) is freelance ... is she not ?
When she produced those sketches she was working for the McCanns .... and was being paid by them to produce what they required
"Melissa Little, Qualified Police Sketch Artist..... met with JT and Gail Cooper to produce the sketches from their recollections of the sightings of the man. These meetings were held on separate occasions." Freelance or not, has no bearing on what she produced/sketched.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 09, 2013, 11:57:59 PM
"Melissa Little, Qualified Police Sketch Artist..... met with JT and Gail Cooper to produce the sketches from their recollections of the sightings of the man. These meetings were held on separate occasions."
She was not employed by the police when she made those sketches ... she was employed by the McCanns and being paid to produce what they required
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 12:01:45 AM
She was not employed by the police when she made those sketches ... she was employed by the McCanns and being paid to produce what they required
Please provide proof that she "produced what they required". Your implication that she was corrupted to produce only what suited the McCann's is not only uncalled for but you have no evidence to support your claim. It's plain speculation with harmful intent.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 12:03:05 AM
I think it is a valid point that seemingly is been rubbished by those who think that the police sketch artist should have drawn the sketch exactly as Tanner had described; leaving the detail of the pajama top out of the sketch. Going on what has been said, about accurate representation given by a witness, how should the police artist have drawn her then: 1. naked? or. 2. in something she wasn't wearing when she disappeared?
Both 1 and 2 is not a true representation of what she looked like when she disappeared. Thus defying the purpose of a police sketch.
Those who argue that the sketch artist was supposed to leave out the pajama top will have to give a reply by choose between 1 and 2. Failing to be able to give a reply with a choice between 1 or 2 would validate the point I have been making all along.
The angle at which Tanner saw the child being carried should have been replicated exactly. If Tanner couldn't see the top half of the child's body then it should have been left out.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 12:06:01 AM
Please provide proof that she "produced what they required". Your implication that she was corrupted to produce only what suited the McCann's is not only uncalled for but you have no evidence to support your claim. It's plain speculation with harmful intent.
I am merely pointing out what you were incorrectly implying ... that they were 'police' sketches
They were not
This artist was given a remit by the McCanns and was paid for her services
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 12:06:15 AM
The angle at which Tanner saw the child being carried should have been replicated exactly. If Tanner couldn't see the top half of the child's body then it should have been left out.
A sketch without a top half of a child? Okay I will put that down as no. 3.
So you would have preferred the public be shown a 'half a child' just so that the angle of the child being carried was correct? (oh dear!)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 12:09:55 AM
I am merely pointing out what you were incorrectly implying ... that they were 'police' sketches
They were not
This artist was given a remit by the McCanns and was paid for her services
Mr Grime and his dogs were freelance. Does the same priniciple you imply with the sketch artist, apply to them? The dogs were then employed to produce what the pj wanted them to?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 12:15:04 AM
But do you honestly think it would have been practical (and frankly laughable) to send out a 'half a child' sketch to the public? Thus eliminating no. 3 from the options leaving no. 1 and no. 2 to choose from.
So I repeat: I think it is a valid point that seemingly is been rubbished by those who think that the police sketch artist should have drawn the sketch exactly as Tanner had described; leaving the detail of the pajama top out of the sketch. Going on what has been said, about accurate representation given by a witness, how should the police artist have drawn her then: 1. naked? or. 2. in something she wasn't wearing when she disappeared?
Both 1 and 2 is not a true representation of what she looked like when she disappeared. Thus defying the purpose of a police sketch.
Those who argue that the sketch artist was supposed to leave out the pajama top will have to give a reply by choose between 1 and 2. Failing to be able to give a reply with a choice between 1 or 2 would validate the point I have been making all along.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 12:26:26 AM
But do you honestly think it would have been practical (and frankly laughable) to send out a 'half a child' sketch to the public? Thus eliminating no. 3 from the options leaving no. 1 and no. 2 to choose from.
So I repeat: I think it is a valid point that seemingly is been rubbished by those who think that the police sketch artist should have drawn the sketch exactly as Tanner had described; leaving the detail of the pajama top out of the sketch. Going on what has been said, about accurate representation given by a witness, how should the police artist have drawn her then: 1. naked? or. 2. in something she wasn't wearing when she disappeared?
Both 1 and 2 is not a true representation of what she looked like when she disappeared. Thus defying the purpose of a police sketch.
Those who argue that the sketch artist was supposed to leave out the pajama top will have to give a reply by choose between 1 and 2. Failing to be able to give a reply with a choice between 1 or 2 would validate the point I have been making all along.
I really don't see your problem. Tanner didn't see the top of the child and, because of the angle at which she/he was being carried, Tanner didn't think looked odd so why would replicating that pose be 'laughable' ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 12:27:50 AM
I really don't see your problem. Tanner didn't see the top of the child and, because of the angle at which she/he was being carried, Tanner didn't think looked odd so why would replicating that pose be 'laughable' ?
No you misread my post; a 'half a child' sketch would be laughable. "But do you honestly think it would have been practical (and frankly laughable) to send out a 'half a child' sketch to the public?"
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 12:28:33 AM
Mr Grime and his dogs were freelance. Does the same priniciple you imply with the sketch artist, apply to them? The dogs were then employed to produce what the pj wanted them to?
Let's stay on topic and continue the discussion
The sketch artist was employed by the McCanns
What was her remit ? was it to produce two different sketches of the men Jane Tanner and Gail Cooper saw, each entirely independent of the other ?
Or was it to produce two sketches which emphasised any similarities between the two men ?
Why, for instance, were both men shown in the same 'pose' ( one minus the child of course )
I know the Jane Tanner sketch could only depict the man as 'striding out' because Jane only ever saw the man in motion
But why depict the man Gail Cooper saw as 'striding out' ? ... Mrs Cooper saw the man at close quarters and face on, so why why do a sketch of him with a side-on perspective, striding out, unless it was to draw some comparison with the man Jane saw ?
The artist was given an agenda with which to work, in my opinion
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 12:40:20 AM
What was her remit ? was it to produce two different sketches of the men Jane Tanner and Gail Cooper saw, each entirely independent of the other ?
Or was it to produce two sketches which emphasised any similarities between the two men ?
Why, for instance, were both men shown in the same 'pose' ( one minus the child of course )
I know the Jane Tanner sketch could only depict the man as 'striding out' because Jane only ever saw the man in motion
But why depict the man Gail Cooper saw as 'striding out' ? ... Mrs Cooper saw the man at close quarters and face on, so why why do a sketch of him with a side-on perspective, striding out, unless it was to draw some comparison with the man Jane saw ?
The artist was given an agenda with which to work, in my opinion
It is on topic if you imply that the artist had an agenda and I used Mr Grime to argue my case that you could also be implying Grime could also be doing the same because you have no proof of her assumption/statement. You are questioning the artist integrity and I drew parallels to Mr Grime which is still on topic because we are discussing the artists integrity/agenda. You infer she had an agenda without proof, then that principle could also apply to others like Mr Grime. Do you not think the two sketches accurately depict any similarities between the two men? Is it your opinion that the reason for this is because the McCann's needed a detraction tactic? If so, why do you think this tactic was necessary?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 12:44:30 AM
It is on topic if you imply that the artist had an agenda and I used Mr Grime to argue my case that you could also be implying Grime could also be doing the same because you have no proof of her assumption/statement. You are questioning the artist integrity and I drew parallels to Mr Grime which is still on topic because we are discussing the artists integrity/agenda. You infer she had an agenda without proof, then that principle could also apply to others like Mr Grime. Do you not think the two sketches accurately depict any similarities between the two men? Is it your opinion that the reason for this is because the McCann's needed a detraction tactic? If so, why do you think this tactic was necessary?
Why do you think the artist did a sketch of the man Gail Cooper saw in profile, in a striding out pose ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 01:04:59 AM
Another question
The McCanns believe the man the Smith family saw that night was the same man Jane Tanner saw almost an hour before ... correct ?
So before they went public with the suggestion that the moustachioed, buck- toothed man Gail Cooper saw might have been the abductor, did they have their private detectives run it past the Smiths first ? ... did they show the Smiths the sketch of Gail Cooper's creepy man and ask, "Is this the man you saw that night ?"
I would guess they didn't, given that the descriptions given by the Smith family, who, like Gail Cooper, saw the man face-on, did not match her description in any way
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 10, 2013, 08:36:18 AM
The McCanns believe the man the Smith family saw that night was the same man Jane Tanner saw almost an hour before ... correct ?
So before they went public with the suggestion that the moustachioed, buck- toothed man Gail Cooper saw might have been the abductor, did they have their private detectives run it past the Smiths first ? ... did they show the Smiths the sketch of Gail Cooper's creepy man and ask, "Is this the man you saw that night ?"
I would guess they didn't, given that the descriptions given by the Smith family, who, like Gail Cooper, saw the man face-on, did not match her description in any way
A good post Ica. 8@??)( Tanner would have known instantly whether the guy in Gail Coopers photofit had any significance for her but has chosen to remain silent even though as you point out he is nothing like the man described by the smith family. Martin Smith made the mistake of claiming that the man looked like Gerry yet Gerry is nothing like the gypsy type character witnesses by Cooper.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 08:46:25 AM
Why do you think the artist did a sketch of the man Gail Cooper saw in profile, in a striding out pose ?
Could be that the "striding out pose" was conveyed to the sketch artist so she depicted him in that way. The best way to trigger someones memory is not only to show what they look like, but also to include a mannerism.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 09:08:46 AM
The McCanns believe the man the Smith family saw that night was the same man Jane Tanner saw almost an hour before ... correct ?
So before they went public with the suggestion that the moustachioed, buck- toothed man Gail Cooper saw might have been the abductor, did they have their private detectives run it past the Smiths first ? ... did they show the Smiths the sketch of Gail Cooper's creepy man and ask, "Is this the man you saw that night ?"
I would guess they didn't, given that the descriptions given by the Smith family, who, like Gail Cooper, saw the man face-on, did not match her description in any way
The McCann's (if your assumption is correct) could well have believed that the Cooper and Smith person of interest was the same person. Write or wrong, that is not my argument, but I am saying that your proof that they tried to 'fix' the situation to show that they are the same person is wrong. And you provide the proof of such yourself.
You claim that the McCann's had an agenda by employing (well not them directly but a third party employed her) the sketch artist, but when she produces accurate representations of possible people of interest by two separate witnesses - proving she did her own work and was not influenced by the McCann's - you question why the Cooper and Smith description is not the same.
So you have shown; the artist was not influenced and the McCann's could have been wrong.
Smith could have seen the same man as Tanner, but it could be that it wasn't the same man as Cooper saw.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 10, 2013, 09:10:30 AM
Computer Program Uses Interactive Genetic Algorithm to Help Witnesses Remember Criminals
Nov. 30, 2009 — Criminals are having a harder time hiding their faces, thanks to new software that helps witnesses recreate and recognize suspects using principles borrowed from the fields of optics and genetics.
A good post Ica. 8@??)( Tanner would have known instantly whether the guy in Gail Coopers photofit had any significance for her but has chosen to remain silent even though as you point out he is nothing like the man described by the smith family. Martin Smith made the mistake of claiming that the man looked like Gerry yet Gerry is nothing like the gypsy type character witnesses by Cooper.
Smith could have seen the same man as Tanner, but it could be that it wasn't the same man as Cooper saw. That would explain a lot but somehow those who can't see this continue to use this as some sort of evidence of a 'fix'.
Surely if McCann's wanted to 'fix' the situation and pin it on someone they would have got their story straight and not have released any photofit that would contradict their belief that Cooper and Smith sighting was the same man. Yet they went ahead and released what looks like different people of interest. And I repeat - Which proves that although Coopers man might not have been the same person as Smith, Tanners man could still be the same as Smiths man.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 10, 2013, 09:28:52 AM
Smith could have seen the same man as Tanner, but it could be that it wasn't the same man as Cooper saw. That would explain a lot but somehow those who can't see this continue to use this as some sort of evidence of a 'fix'.
Surely if McCann's wanted to 'fix' the situation and pin it on someone they would have got their story straight and not have released any photofit that would contradict their belief that Cooper and Smith sighting was the same man. Yet they went ahead and released what looks like different people of interest. And I repeat - Which proves that although Coopers man might not have been the same person as Smith, Tanners man could still be the same as Smiths man.
As has already been pointed out Jane described a guy with near shoulder length hair yet Martin Smith calimed the man they saw had short hair like Gerry McCann. Are we expected to believe the mystery man went for a short back and sides in the 40 or so intervening minutes between the sightings??
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
As has already been pointed out Jane described a guy with near shoulder length hair yet Martin Smith calimed the man they saw had short hair like Gerry McCann. Are we expected to believe the mystery man went for a short back and sides in the 40 or so intervening minutes between the sightings??
Would you agree that not every single person who saw the same persons recall will be 100% accurate? That it is quite possible that two people seeing the same person could have got hair length wrong but that does not mean they got the person wrong. How many photofits are done by the police and other agencies which doesn't depict the exact representation of a person of interest YET they do find the person.
It would appear that those who are looking for proof that the Smith and Tanner person is not the same (because it would provide stronger proof that an abduction took place by a stranger) are actually acknowledging that there was a person seeing carrying a child.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
Could be that the "striding out pose" was conveyed to the sketch artist so she depicted him in that way. The best way to trigger someones memory is not only to show what they look like, but also to include a mannerism.
Like the way you carry a child who is asleep ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: John on June 10, 2013, 01:51:14 PM
Would you agree that not every single person who saw the same persons recall will be 100% accurate? That it is quite possible that two people seeing the same person could have got hair length wrong but that does not mean they got the person wrong. How many photofits are done by the police and other agencies which doesn't depict the exact representation of a person of interest YET they do find the person.
It would appear that those who are looking for proof that the Smith and Tanner person is not the same (because it would provide stronger proof that an abduction took place by a stranger) are actually acknowledging that there was a person seeing carrying a child.
I agree with your comments Mo but all the same, Mr Smith was adamant at one time that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. As length of hair is one of the primary things we notice about someone surely he couldn't have got that so terribly wrong?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 10, 2013, 04:08:48 PM
As has already been pointed out Jane described a guy with near shoulder length hair yet Martin Smith calimed the man they saw had short hair like Gerry McCann. Are we expected to believe the mystery man went for a short back and sides in the 40 or so intervening minutes between the sightings??
...
I don't think Jane described the abductor with shoulder length hair.
Didn't she say 'thick hair longer at the back' ?
If Smith looked at him from the front then yes he would have hair like Gerry McCann, if he had looked back at him he would see that it was longer at the back.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 04:13:55 PM
No. The way he stood, tilted his head, what he looked like, any striking features, etc is what a photofit concentrated on and not the way he carried the child. If you insist on the "carry a child" angle 9excuse the pun)then lets explore it shall we?
To be able to compare or draw a comparison to others and be able to identify a person by the way he/she carried a child one would have to have a community who regularly carry their children around. If no one carries their children around then there is nothing to 'use' or observe to compare to. Everyone carrying their children around carry them in different ways for different situations. Should the child the man in the photofit have been Madeleine, then it was generally accepted she was either sleeping or drugged. Sleeping children are generally carried in another way i.e. over the shoulder (but not always exclusively). If everyone followed your rule - carried their children in exactly the same way as the man in the photofit then you can use the method or way of carrying the child as a factor in the photofit for the public to look out for/use to identify the person. But that is not what the photofit concentrated on.
The angle at which the child was carried is of little relevance unless you have everyone in the world carrying their children around so that one has something to compare the photofit to.
A possible suspect is able to change the way he carries a child because it has been made public, making the importance of the angle carried in the photofit invalid, BUT he can't change his facial features.
Therefore the angle at which the child was carried is irrelevant. What is relevant and of importance is the way the person looked and any feature like a body posture that will trigger the memory of someone who might have seen him. Capiche!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 04:24:27 PM
I agree with your comments Mo but all the same, Mr Smith was adamant at one time that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. As length of hair is one of the primary things we notice about someone surely he couldn't have got that so terribly wrong?
Does Mr Smith not say that it could look like Gerry? He does not state it is Gerry McCann. Have you ever had a conversation with someone and drawn a comparison with someones basic features and said, "it could be Keira Knightley I saw at the hotel....". That indicates that they shared similar features but that it doesn't necessarily mean it was Keira Knightley you saw.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 04:28:29 PM
I find it odd that you would advertise another discussion on this thread. There has been no mentions in the past two/three if not more pages, of Calpol on this thread. Why do you want attention diverted from this thread?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 05:09:39 PM
The only witnesses to see a man carrying a child that night were Jane Tanner and the Smith family
None of them described the man as looking like ( or even remotely similar to ) the man described by Gail Cooper
Yet the McCanns presented a sketch of the man Gail Cooper saw and intimated that he may have been the man the witnesses saw carrying a child that night ... why ? ... based on what ? ( it certainly wasn't based on what the witnesses themselves had said )
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mo Stache on June 10, 2013, 05:13:07 PM
The only witnesses to see a man carrying a child that night were Jane Tanner and the Smith family
None of them described the man as looking like ( or even remotely similar to ) the man described by Gail Cooper
Yet the McCanns presented a sketch of the man Gail Cooper saw and intimated that he may have been the man the witnesses saw carrying a child that night ... why ? ... based on what ? ( it certainly wasn't based on what the witnesses themselves had said )
What do you think the 'why' and 'based on what' is?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 05:16:06 PM
I just think that if the man Jane saw was the abductor, then he would have been long gone before the Smiths made their sighting
When he saw Jane Tanner he could have lay low to see if the alarm would be raised, it wasn't, so he knew he was ok to carry on down to where maybe he was meeting someone.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 05:50:51 PM
When he saw Jane Tanner he could have lay low to see if the alarm would be raised, it wasn't, so he knew he was ok to carry on down to where maybe he was meeting someone.
I don't think that's likely either Lace, he would have known the alarm would be raised at some point, and the more time that passed the more imminent it became ... waiting for nearly an hour and then, somehow feeling it was 'safer' to move again just doesn't make sense
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 10, 2013, 05:54:17 PM
It could be the meeting time with someone else was 10 o'clock.
He knew they checked every half hour, he waited until Gerry did his check then took Madeleine. Saw Jane Tanner thought he had better hide out of sight for a bit to see what would happen. Nothing happened, he carried on down to the meeting spot.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 06:01:01 PM
It could be the meeting time with someone else was 10 o'clock.
He knew they checked every half hour, he waited until Gerry did his check then took Madeleine. Saw Jane Tanner thought he had better hide out of sight for a bit to see what would happen. Nothing happened, he carried on down to the meeting spot.
I just can't see it
If he knew checks were being made every half hour then he would know one was due at 9.30pm. He would have expected the alarm to be raised at that point ( he could not have expected Matthew Oldfield to make the inadequate check that he did )
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 10, 2013, 06:23:33 PM
He probably didn't expect Matthew to do any check, he saw Gerry leaving and most probably thought there wouldn't be another check until quarter to ten, cutting it fine to get to the meeting spot.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 10, 2013, 06:30:46 PM
He probably didn't expect Matthew to do any check, he saw Gerry leaving and most probably thought there wouldn't be another check until quarter to ten, cutting it fine to get to the meeting spot.
And why would this accomplice he was meeting not be there until after 10pm ?
Surely any 'meeting' would be arranged with precision to enable as quick a get-away as possible
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Chinagirl on June 10, 2013, 10:32:19 PM
I agree with your comments Mo but all the same, Mr Smith was adamant at one time that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. As length of hair is one of the primary things we notice about someone surely he couldn't have got that so terribly wrong? (John)
Smith was NOT "adamant ...... that the man he saw was Gerry McCann." He was only 60% to 80% sure - a long way from 'adamant."
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: ferryman on June 10, 2013, 10:40:35 PM
I agree with your comments Mo but all the same, Mr Smith was adamant at one time that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. As length of hair is one of the primary things we notice about someone surely he couldn't have got that so terribly wrong? (John)
Smith was NOT "adamant ...... that the man he saw was Gerry McCann." He was only 60% to 80% sure - a long way from 'adamant."
And his feelings then are probably vastly different from his feelings now ...
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 10, 2013, 10:46:19 PM
I agree with your comments Mo but all the same, Mr Smith was adamant at one time that the man he saw was Gerry McCann. As length of hair is one of the primary things we notice about someone surely he couldn't have got that so terribly wrong? (John)
Smith was NOT "adamant ...... that the man he saw was Gerry McCann." He was only 60% to 80% sure - a long way from 'adamant."
It was Amaral who said Smith was ''sure'' it was Gerry - in his book.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 10, 2013, 11:51:16 PM
If Mr Smith had been 100% sure, some kind of confrontation would have been organized. Even so he was ready to come back and to be submitted to a parade or whatever.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 01:08:26 AM
I don't think that's likely either Lace, he would have known the alarm would be raised at some point, and the more time that passed the more imminent it became ... waiting for nearly an hour and then, somehow feeling it was 'safer' to move again just doesn't make sense
Icabod You are totally ignoring sadies theory which at the time you read it, you said that you accepted as a possibility, or words to that affect.
Icabod
Quote
Re: sadies theory « Reply #29 on: April 23, 2013, 01:06:32 AM »QuoteI can't pick any holes in your theory sadie
It is thought through and well researched ... there's nothing to say it didn't happen just as you suggest
If this theory is correct, then the getaway car buzzed off after realizing that the abduction had been witnessed by Jane Tanner ... leaving Bundleman in the lurch
In circumstances like that it is likely that bundleman would hide away, not knowing what to do ... or .... .... in the theory it was suggested that a staff member was used for the lifting of Madeleine. Maybe in desperation, nowhere to go, he was visiting that helper, a member of staff who did the lifting?
When the Smiths saw the man carrying the little girl, he could likely have just come from the Staff quarters which were, just out of sight, about 50 metres up the very same road. The very place that someone on the 3A's claimed a scream had come from UGH
So it is quite likely that the Smiths man and bundleman are one and the same
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 07:52:24 AM
If Mr Smith had been 100% sure, some kind of confrontation would have been organized. Even so he was ready to come back and to be submitted to a parade or whatever.
How would a "confrontation" be of use to anyone? Mr. Smith, after having presumably seen daily news, including photos of Madeleine's parents, as they were in EVERY newspaper, on EVERY news channel all over the world, for months on end. Only when the McCanns went back to the UK & he saw Gerry carrying a sleeping child down the steps of an aircraft did he notice that it "looked" like the person he'd seen that night. His 60-80% "sure" is based purely on mannerism, i.e. "way of carrying" - Mr. Smith admits this freely himself in his police statement.
I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane.
ETA Link http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 10:01:01 AM
How would a "confrontation" be of use to anyone? Mr. Smith, after having presumably seen daily news, including photos of Madeleine's parents, as they were in EVERY newspaper, on EVERY news channel all over the world, for months on end. Only when the McCanns went back to the UK & he saw Gerry carrying a sleeping child down the steps of an aircraft did he notice that it "looked" like the person he'd seen that night. His 60-80% "sure" is based purely on mannerism, i.e. "way of carrying" - Mr. Smith admits this freely himself in his police statement.
I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane.
ETA Link http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm
I said "some kind of confrontation", not the face to face between the 3 members of the tapas group and Mr Murat. "He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual." Obviously it is this suggested "not being habitual" carrying that would/should have tried to be re-enacted. Had it discarded Mr McCann and hopefully cleared the interesting feeling of Mr Smith about, as he tried to express it, the way of carrying, a big step forward would have been done. But the PJ rejected the offer of Mr Smith.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2013, 10:42:48 AM
I said "some kind of confrontation", not the face to face between the 3 members of the tapas group and Mr Murat. "He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual." Obviously it is this suggested "not being habitual" carrying that would/should have tried to be re-enacted. Had it discarded Mr McCann and hopefully cleared the interesting feeling of Mr Smith about, as he tried to express it, the way of carrying, a big step forward would have been done. But the PJ rejected the offer of Mr Smith.
Personally Anne, I think Mr Smith would have quite naturally pricked up his ears at the mention of the McCanns on the news and so paid it particular attention. The way Gerry was coming down the airplane steps carrying his son obviously reminded him of the way the man he saw in PdL was carrying a child. He then put 2 and 2 together and made 5. If Sean had NOT been asleep - and had been carried down in a completely different way then I don't think Mr Smith would have made the connection which he did. Other members of the Smith family didn't agree with him - although Amaral fails to mention that in his book.
Quote from Amarals book
In Ireland, the Smiths are watching the BBC news, which is broadcasting the event. For them, it's a shock: that person, they recognise him. That way of carrying his child, that way of walking...It's the man they saw at around 10pm on May 3rd, with a little girl, who seemed to be deeply asleep, in his arms.
This image, brings back with a jolt, that of the man they encountered in the streets of Vila da Luz, on the evening of Madeleine's disappearance. It's as if the scene is repeating itself ....Mr Smith thinking he's hallucinating, sees the same report on other channels, ITV and Sky News. From that moment, he is sure: the man they came across that night was Gerald McCann. Of that there is very little doubt. Upset by the implications of this discovery, he alerts the police and waits to be called back by those in charge of the investigation. unquote
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
Personally Anne, I think Mr Smith would have quite naturally pricked up his ears at the mention of the McCanns on the news and so paid it particular attention. The way Gerry was coming down the airplane steps carrying his son obviously reminded him of the way the man he saw in PdL was carrying a child. He then put 2 and 2 together and made 5. If Sean had NOT been asleep - and had been carried down in a completely different way then I don't think Mr Smith would have made the connection which he did. Other members of the Smith family didn't agree with him - although Amaral fails to mention that in his book.
I don't find it fair, Benice, to deny to Mr Smith the "I believe that 2 and 2 are 4 and that 4 and 4 are 8" of Don Giovanni and to insinuate he's a kind of Leporello. I hope you're not suggesting that Mr Smith had already and consciously that "suspicion" on his mind and was expecting an opportunity to deliver it. Mrs Smith agreed with him. Of course if Mr McCann's son hadn't been so deeply asleep, Mr Smith's memory wouldn't have been jogged. This is exactly the point.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2013, 12:16:03 PM
I don't find it fair, Benice, to deny to Mr Smith the "I believe that 2 and 2 are 4 and that 4 and 4 are 8" of Don Giovanni and to insinuate he's a kind of Leporello. I hope you're not suggesting that Mr Smith had already and consciously that "suspicion" on his mind and was expecting an opportunity to deliver it. Mrs Smith agreed with him. Of course if Mr McCann's son hadn't been so deeply asleep, Mr Smith's memory wouldn't have been jogged. This is exactly the point.
No I'm not making any such suggestions.
The fact remains that it wasn't Gerry himself that brought back a memory to Mr Smith. It was the manner in which he was carrying his child that was familiar to him. And because it revived a picture in his mind, he then went on from that to thinking it might actually have been Gerry. Although never did he say it was more than a possibility.
However, Amaral insists it was Gerry they recognised - and that simply isn't the case. As someone else has pointed out, Gerry's picture and videos of him had been all over the news and media for months - and yet not once during all that time did Mr Smith (or any of his family) think he was the same man they saw in PdL. IMO.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 12:46:30 PM
The fact remains that it wasn't Gerry himself that brought back a memory to Mr Smith. It was the manner in which he was carrying his child that was familiar to him. And because it revived a picture in his mind, he then went on from that to thinking it might actually have been Gerry. Although never did he say it was more than a possibility.
However, Amaral insists it was Gerry they recognised - and that simply isn't the case. As someone else has pointed out, Gerry's picture and videos of him had been all over the news and media for months - and yet not once during all that time did Mr Smith (or any of his family) think he was the same man they saw in PdL. IMO.
I'm pleased you're not suggesting Mr Smith had some kind of parti pris. I never suggested Mr McCann jogged Mr Smith's memory. Mr McCann's face is banal, hence difficult to remember. Is it because the carrier's face wasn't characteristic that all the Smiths said they wouldn't recognize him ? Or is it because they actually didn't see his face ? The way of carrying was "unusual" or "uncomfortable". This has been analysed before, without many results. Nobody found nothing of this kind in Mr McCann's way to carry his son. So what was it that Mr Smith didn't express well ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 12:52:51 PM
I said "some kind of confrontation", not the face to face between the 3 members of the tapas group and Mr Murat. "He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual." Obviously it is this suggested "not being habitual" carrying that would/should have tried to be re-enacted. Had it discarded Mr McCann and hopefully cleared the interesting feeling of Mr Smith about, as he tried to express it, the way of carrying, a big step forward would have been done. But the PJ rejected the offer of Mr Smith.
Do you consider "way of carrying" an identifiable mannerism in a person? I'm quite certain police don't. Never heard of anyone being identified e.g. by the way they carry their shopping bags from the supermarket. It's a ridiculous notion, as far as I'm concerned. And that's the ONLY identifying feature Mr. Smith bases his 60-80% estimate on. Nothing else, just the "way of carrying".
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lace on June 11, 2013, 12:53:17 PM
The majority of parents carry their child like that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 01:09:25 PM
Do you consider "way of carrying" an identifiable mannerism in a person? I'm quite certain police don't. Never heard of anyone being identified e.g. by the way they carry their shopping bags from the supermarket. It's a ridiculous notion, as far as I'm concerned. And that's the ONLY identifying feature Mr. Smith bases his 60-80% estimate on. Nothing else, just the "way of carrying".
Why do you think Mr Smith spent 3 days and nights before going to the Gardaï, Mrs B ? He's the reputation of a very decent man, not a fool ! Btw the carrier wasn't suspected to carry a shopping bag. A puppet ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 01:12:46 PM
Way of carrying is not an identifying feature of a person, it's as simple as that, it never has and never will be.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 01:24:37 PM
Way of carrying is not an identifying feature of a person, it's as simple as that, it never has and never will be.
This is why Mr Smith could be only 60/80% sure in identifying the carrier. Had a re-enactment helped Mr Smith to determine what jogged his memory ? It is very possible and it's a pity the PJ neglected Mr Smith's offer, because there was certainly some important detail there, one of those where the devil adores to hide.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 01:28:53 PM
I simply don't agree, what would they have done? A parade of men carrying sleeping children down steps from an aircraft, without their heads being shown? As previously pointed out, there is hardly any other way TO carry a sleeping child down steps.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 01:32:26 PM
I simply don't agree, what would they have done? A parade of men carrying sleeping children down steps from an aircraft, without their heads being shown? As previously pointed out, there is hardly any other way TO carry a sleeping child down steps.
Not down steps, of course. Down Escola Primaria. Btw, on the pictures, Mrs McCann holds the bannister, whereas Mr McCann doesn't.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 01:41:27 PM
I said SLEEPING child. Apart from that, see any big differences "carrying" wise here?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 06:48:35 PM
Of course it was a moving picture and different photos may show slight differences, but Kate is not holding the rail here.
Both Parents show concentration as they descend and both parents have one hand that could grab the rail if necessary
Perfect carrying technique, common to most caring parents.
What a nonsense of Amaral to make a "meal" out of that.
I wonder if Smith contacted Amaral just to tell him that the method that Gerry was holding s*** in this picture is the same as the method that ?bundleman was holding Madeleine? Only pointing out how ?bundleman was carrying Madeleine ... nothing more.
And Amaral blew it up into an identification of Gerry?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2013, 06:54:23 PM
Of course it was a moving picture and different photos may show slight differences, but Kate is not holding the rail here.
Both Parents show concentration as they descend and both parents have one hand that could grab the rail if necessary
Perect carrying technique, common to most caring parents.
What a nonsense of Amaral to make a "meal" out of that.
I wonder if Smith contacted Amaral just to tell him that the method that Gerry was holding s*** in this picture is the same as the method that ?bundleman was holding Madeleine? Only pointing out how ?bundleman was carrying Madeleine ... nothing more.
And Amaral blew it up into an identification of Gerry?
If you think that sadie then you really do need to re-visit the files before your 'theories' get any more ridiculous.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 11, 2013, 06:55:18 PM
No, I don't think that was the case. Mr. Smith did contact Irish authorities after he saw that news clip on the TV & he did say that the person he saw COULD have been Gerry McCann. Amaral did exaggerate but it wasn't actually Amaral who invented the story.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on June 11, 2013, 06:56:58 PM
No, I don't think that was the case. Mr. Smith did contact Irish authorities after he saw that news clip on the TV & he did say that the person he saw COULD have been Gerry McCann. Amaral did exaggerate but it wasn't actually Amaral who invented the story.
I am happy to accept that. 8((()*/
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 11, 2013, 10:29:38 PM
No, I don't think that was the case. Mr. Smith did contact Irish authorities after he saw that news clip on the TV & he did say that the person he saw COULD have been Gerry McCann. Amaral did exaggerate but it wasn't actually Amaral who invented the story.
Do you suggest somebody else invented it ? Or do you mean "but Amaral actually didn't invent the story" ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 12, 2013, 08:48:19 AM
No, I was answering replying to Sadie's comment, if you read above, I'm sure you'll understand.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 12, 2013, 02:18:56 PM
Quote
Mrs. B Amaral did exaggerate but it wasn't actually Amaral who invented the story. AnneGuedes Do you suggest somebody else invented it ? Or do you mean "but Amaral actually didn't invent the story" ? Mrs.B No, I was answering replying to Sadie's comment, if you read above, I'm sure you'll understand.
I know you were replying to Sadie. My doubt was about a syntaxic point : As you wrote it I understand Amaral didn't invent the story but somebody else did. Is it what you meant ? And if so, who ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 04:17:06 PM
No, I meant exactly what I said, Amaral did not invent the story. End of.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 06:03:33 PM
Fine, at least a fact and not Amaral's inventiveness.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 13, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
Yes, as I said.....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 13, 2013, 06:22:12 PM
The McCanns believe the man the Smith family saw that night was the same man Jane Tanner saw almost an hour before ... correct ?
So before they went public with the suggestion that the moustachioed, buck- toothed man Gail Cooper saw might have been the abductor, did they have their private detectives run it past the Smiths first ? ... did they show the Smiths the sketch of Gail Cooper's creepy man and ask, "Is this the man you saw that night ?"
I would guess they didn't, given that the descriptions given by the Smith family, who, like Gail Cooper, saw the man face-on, did not match her description in any way
I'm resurrecting this thread in light of the fact that we now know that the man Jane Tanner saw was not the same man the Smiths saw ( the whole thread is worth re-reading if only because it demonstrates how people can become absolutely convinced by false information )
Anyway, my real reason for bumping was with regard to the post I made above, back in June
I'd like to know when it was that the McCanns produced that e fit of Gail Cooper's 'creepy man'
They presented it as possibly being the man Jane Tanner saw ... and, by extention, the man the Smiths saw ( since they believed that Tanner and the Smiths had seen the same man that night )
Did they already have Henri Exton's e fits when they did that, or not ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 02:24:38 PM
Icab
The creepyman was done around January 2008
See second entry onwards, page 3965 +
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/POWERPOINT.htm
IIRC the Smithman efits were done in September 2008 (reported in one of the articles these last few weeks, I dont remember which one) and report presented to Mccanns November 2008
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lyall on November 05, 2013, 02:27:01 PM
I'm resurrecting this thread in light of the fact that we now know that the man Jane Tanner saw was not the same man the Smiths saw ( the whole thread is worth re-reading if only because it demonstrates how people can become absolutely convinced by false information )
Anyway, my real reason for bumping was with regard to the post I made above, back in June
I'd like to know when it was that the McCanns produced that e fit of Gail Cooper's 'creepy man'
They presented it as possibly being the man Jane Tanner saw ... and, by extention, the man the Smiths saw ( since they believed that Tanner and the Smiths had seen the same man that night )
Did they already have Henri Exton's e fits when they did that, or not ?
The 'Cooperman' sketch was January 2008, Icabod, and at that point there had been no linking of the 9.15 and 10pm sightings by Mitchell or the McCanns. At least not publicly.
The 10pm e-fits are thought to have been made in November?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lyall on November 05, 2013, 02:27:59 PM
IIRC the Smithman efits were done in September 2008 (reported in one of the articles these last few weeks, I dont remember which one) and report presented to Mccanns November 2008
8((()*/ Snap.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 02:31:26 PM
Snap indeed @)(++(*
OK found the reference now in the paper
The efits were compiled by private detectives in September 2008
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 05, 2013, 02:35:43 PM
Thanks Red and Lyall
The reason I asked was that I was watching an interview with Sandra Felgueiras where Kate was pointing out that creepy man was not that dissimilar to Tannerman, and I couldn't find a date for the interview
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 02:42:48 PM
The reason I asked was that I was watching an interview with Sandra Felgueiras where Kate was pointing out that creepy man was not that dissimilar to Tannerman, and I couldn't find a date for the interview
It was one on the rounds on the first anniversary, May 2008....as for not being that dissimilar, Tannerman had no face.....and their hairdos were chalk and cheese.....one looked like they just stepped out the hairdresser the other like they just been dragged through a hedge backwards...not to mention Tanner not seeing that massive handlebar moustache even from the side.......whilst noticing his swarthy skin each individual hair and uncreased trousers....still Gerry reckoned she said he bore an 80 per cent resemblance!....still, yes, no mention of a family seeing a more similar man on the same night, rather flag up people seen nowhere near the place and a week or two before.....
When can we get a rolly eyes smiley on here?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Danamithar on November 05, 2013, 02:45:45 PM
E-Fits may not have been in the file.....Read this http://www.herald.ie/news/irish-couple-to-help-new-maddie-probe-28003417.html
19 MARCH 2012 Reports in British newspapers have claimed Scotland Yard officers will approach the Smith family in the coming weeks as they attempt to construct a photofit on the prime suspect.
Tragedy
Mary Smith told the Herald today that the family still sees Madeleine story as a "terrible tragedy" and that they will co-operate fully with investigators.
"At this point we just don't know whether we will be called but of course we will cooperate fully. Madeleine's disappearance was just a terrible tragedy," she added.
"We have not been contacted by police yet and we will wait for their instructions," she added.
Police reports state that Mary and Martin left Kelly's Bar in the resort at approximately 10pm when they passed a male they said was carrying a young girl who was barefoot.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 05, 2013, 02:55:35 PM
E-Fits may not have been in the file.....Read this http://www.herald.ie/news/irish-couple-to-help-new-maddie-probe-28003417.html
19 MARCH 2012 Reports in British newspapers have claimed Scotland Yard officers will approach the Smith family in the coming weeks as they attempt to construct a photofit on the prime suspect
Oh, well, if true,thats put a spanner in the works.......I cant keep up.....
Eta if true, still, why such a long delay releasing them.....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lyall on November 05, 2013, 02:59:39 PM
E-Fits may not have been in the file.....Read this http://www.herald.ie/news/irish-couple-to-help-new-maddie-probe-28003417.html
19 MARCH 2012 Reports in British newspapers have claimed Scotland Yard officers will approach the Smith family in the coming weeks as they attempt to construct a photofit on the prime suspect.
Tragedy
Mary Smith told the Herald today that the family still sees Madeleine story as a "terrible tragedy" and that they will co-operate fully with investigators.
"At this point we just don't know whether we will be called but of course we will cooperate fully. Madeleine's disappearance was just a terrible tragedy," she added.
"We have not been contacted by police yet and we will wait for their instructions," she added.
Police reports state that Mary and Martin left Kelly's Bar in the resort at approximately 10pm when they passed a male they said was carrying a young girl who was barefoot.
The article says that another newspaper says that police intend to contact, not that they have contacted. Is it known if the Smiths were contacted by SY after this date?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 05, 2013, 03:58:56 PM
The article says that another newspaper says that police intend to contact, not that they have contacted. Is it known if the Smiths were contacted by SY after this date?
If they had, then surely they would have used their own experts to produce an 'official' e fit based on the Smiths' description to them ... rather than parade Henri Exton's 'unofficial' e fits on Crimewatch ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 05, 2013, 04:04:02 PM
If they had, then surely they would have used their own experts to produce an 'official' e fit based on the Smiths' description to them ... rather than parade Henri Exton's 'unofficial' e fits on Crimewatch ?
That's true, though there are those on here who claim that the Sunday Times article is rubbish, anyway.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 05, 2013, 04:33:13 PM
I'm resurrecting this thread in light of the fact that we now know that the man Jane Tanner saw was not the same man the Smiths saw ( the whole thread is worth re-reading if only because it demonstrates how people can become absolutely convinced by false information )
Anyway, my real reason for bumping was with regard to the post I made above, back in June
I'd like to know when it was that the McCanns produced that e fit of Gail Cooper's 'creepy man'
They presented it as possibly being the man Jane Tanner saw ... and, by extention, the man the Smiths saw ( since they believed that Tanner and the Smiths had seen the same man that night )
Did they already have Henri Exton's e fits when they did that, or not ?
We don't KNOW that. There is no certainty.
Certainly SY have uncovered a man that the PJ failed to find .... and that is good news for the case.
But it cannot be certain that this is the same man that Jane Tanner saw.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Lyall on November 05, 2013, 04:35:26 PM
Certainly SY have uncovered a man that the PJ failed to find .... and that is good news for the case.
But it cannot be certain that this is the same man that Jane Tanner saw.
Well Scotland Yard think it WAS the same man ... so strongly are they convinced of it that they eliminated Jane Tanner's bundleman on Crimewatch, and did not request any further help from the public on that matter
They have eliminated bundleman based on their investigation ( the full details of which we are not aware )
Do you think they are wrong ? ... do you believe your investigation is superior to that of Scotland Yard ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 05, 2013, 11:50:38 PM
Of the irish family witnesses, the only who mentions the sleeves of the child's top,says the sleeves are long. I agree that the PJ should find the man seen by the irish family, but the long sleeves are a bit of a mystery?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 06, 2013, 01:56:54 AM
Well Scotland Yard think it WAS the same man ... so strongly are they convinced of it that they eliminated Jane Tanner's bundleman on Crimewatch, and did not request any further help from the public on that matter
They have eliminated bundleman based on their investigation ( the full details of which we are not aware )
Do you think they are wrong ? ... do you believe your investigation is superior to that of Scotland Yard ?
It is not a certainty. It cannot be.
They cannot KNOW if a further man with a child walked that way. They cannot KNOW it Icabod.
Why do you keep on? Like a stuck record. 8)-)))
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 06, 2013, 02:27:59 AM
Your 'theory' has been trashed by Scotland Yard ... can't you acknowledge that ?
No 'bundleman' ... no aborted 'pick-up' ... no stop off in 'staff quarters'
Or are you laying down one of your BIG FONT bright coloured 'challenges' to Redwood of the Yard now ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Mr Moderator on November 06, 2013, 09:27:20 AM
It would appear that the BBC Crimewatch claims have been exaggerated yet again in an attempt to improve ratings.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 06, 2013, 09:11:12 PM
The Crimewatch reconstruction is not always accurate with clothing (sometimes showing actors wearing clothes different to what is in witness statements). However one example where Crimewatch did get the clothing right is the sleeve length of the girl seen by the irish family, because one of them, from a distance of only about "two metres", saw the girl was wearing "a light top, with long sleeves". The missing girl's top has very short sleeves. So how is this possible? Either the sighting is irrelevant (another innocent man), or the witness is wrong about the long sleeves, or somewhere the long-sleeved top was added (which makes the idea of a stop-off, however unlikely it seems otherwise, not to be completely ruled out?).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2013, 09:19:36 PM
The Crimewatch reconstruction is not always accurate with clothing (sometimes showing actors wearing clothes different to what is in witness statements). However one example where Crimewatch did get the clothing right is the sleeve length of the girl seen by the irish family, because one of them, from a distance of only about "two metres", saw the girl was wearing "a light top, with long sleeves". The missing girl's top has very short sleeves. So how is this possible? Either the sighting is irrelevant (another innocent man), or the witness is wrong about the long sleeves, or somewhere the long-sleeved top was added (which makes the idea of a stop-off, however unlikely it seems otherwise, not to be completely ruled out?).
The missing girl's top has very short sleeves. So how is this possible?
We only have the McCanns word to trust in respect of what Madeleine was wearing when she was 'taken'.
The McCanns lied in their witness statements*, therefore we cannot trust their account of what she was supposedly wearing when she was supposedly 'taken'.
*From the declarations of the group results a total incoherence, in the face of which it's obvious, that everyone lies.
David Payne in his Rogatory interview had this to say about what he last saw Madeleine wearing....
"I can't remember exactly what, what you know the night attire, what the children were wearing but white was the predominant err colour"
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2013, 10:04:37 PM
David Payne Rogatory Interview
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "And really didn't think twice about it at the time and that's why it wasn't mentioned then. But she definitely mentioned it to me you know after Madeleine had been abducted and you know on the, the following day before she'd actually mentioned it to Kate and there was a, a newspaper report, I think it was in the Telegraph err certainly one of the newspapers anyway, that was sort of describing err Madeleine's pyjamas and, and err Jane said that's not right, how did they get that, well she said you know, that in, I don't know how they get that information anyway, my recollections were this was what she was wearing and described it you know differently you know to what the, the, the press had, and that was before she'd even seen Kate so you know, the strength of that argument is just absolutely overwhelming, you know given the time frame err you know of when Madeleine must have gone, gone, that you know and for her to have described in detail the pull ups at the bottom of the pyjamas err you know the colours, you know and the timing is just, you know well, so.'
1485 "How did she describe the child to you''
Reply "Err, the, from, again my, my recollection was more about the, the description of the pyjamas not fitting in with the description of the newspaper and if I was to say that she was carrying the child you know like this, rather than like, like that then, you know because again this is something that we've talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance, to actually carry a child like so is, it's hard work. You know, it's much easier to carry a child like this and it's easier to keep them asleep and support their head etcetera. So yeah that's something we've chatted about since and you know I could say oh yes I'm a hundred percent sure she said that, that they were carrying the child like that, but I, again, I wouldn't be, be accurate. All I can say is accurately I remember there was a, the err the discrepancy with the pyjamas and that, you know, and then she kept coming back to the turn ups which you know, which is very unique about the err you know, the pyjamas so that was, you know, you're in shock, you can't believe what's happened, you know, you're, you're ninety nine, point nine, nine, nine percent sure that this is what's happened but you're still not wanting to believe what's happened.'
1485 "Yeah.'
Reply "But you know and then you're looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who's taken her. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
"you know because again this is something that we've talked about, you know, if she was abducted, you know, sorry if you were carrying your own child any distance"
"But you know and then you're looking for information to, to try and fit in with what you thinks happened and then you know when, when we knew that we just thought, you know, that is it, that is who's taken her.
Yes Dr Payne "if she was abducted" >@@(*&)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 06, 2013, 10:06:14 PM
Mr McCann spoke of another pyjama when he was interviewed by Vanity Fair on the 10th of January 2008 :
The night of May 3, Gerry checked on Madeleine, fast asleep in her pink-and-white Winnie the Pooh pajamas, and the twins, at 9:05
He likely didn't remember they had exhibited an Sleepy Eeyore short leaves pyjama on Crimewatch, the 4th of June..
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2013, 10:39:18 PM
Mr McCann spoke of another pyjama when he was interviewed by Vanity Fair on the 10th of January 2008 :
The night of May 3, Gerry checked on Madeleine, fast asleep in her pink-and-white Winnie the Pooh pajamas, and the twins, at 9:05
He likely didn't remember they had exhibited an Sleepy Eeyore short leaves pyjama on Crimewatch, the 4th of June..
They were rather keen to exhibited the short sleeve pink Eeyore jammies, almost as if they felt compelled to stress that Madeleine was most definitely not wearing a long sleeve white pair.
I wonder why that might be? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2013, 10:53:33 PM
'As the family waited fearfully for news, they faced the agonising reality of trying to explain to their toddler twins why their big sister was no longer there.
"That was terrible for them," says John McCann, Mr McCann's elder brother, who has also travelled to Portugal to help search for his niece.
"Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas and the baby said: 'Maddy's jammies. Where is Maddy?' But she is too young to understand. And how do you explain? All we know is that Madeleine needs her family. She loves us, we love her. It is time for her to come home."'(Sydney Morning Herald, 15 May, 2007).
'Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas.'
Now thats magic.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 06, 2013, 11:05:35 PM
If Amelie had the same, only smaller, why would she call it "Maddy's jammies"? Instead of Ms Tanner adapting the sighting pyjama to Madeleine's pyjama, was Madeleine's pyjama adapted to the sighting pyjama ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 06, 2013, 11:11:39 PM
If Amelie had the same, only smaller, why would she call it "Maddy's jammies"? Instead of Ms Tanner adapting the sighting pyjama to Madeleine's pyjama, was Madeleine's pyjama adapted to the sighting pyjama ?
Jane Tanner Rogatory
"I can think that I would think 'Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas', so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn't think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention."
And
"and err as I say with the pink part of the pyjamas I've always wondered whether that was a little girl, is it, are you going to plant into your head the pink pyjamas."
"if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes"
"are you going to plant into your head the pink pyjamas."
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2013, 01:04:38 AM
'As the family waited fearfully for news, they faced the agonising reality of trying to explain to their toddler twins why their big sister was no longer there.
"That was terrible for them," says John McCann, Mr McCann's elder brother, who has also travelled to Portugal to help search for his niece.
"Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas and the baby said: 'Maddy's jammies. Where is Maddy?' But she is too young to understand. And how do you explain? All we know is that Madeleine needs her family. She loves us, we love her. It is time for her to come home."'(Sydney Morning Herald, 15 May, 2007).
'Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas.'
Now thats magic.
Does dressing Amelie in Madeleine's clothes so soon after she had gone missing not seem rather callous to anyone ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 01:27:49 AM
Does dressing Amelie in Madeleine's clothes so soon after she had gone missing not seem rather callous to anyone ?
They said the pyjama exhibited to the cameras was Amelie's and identical to Madeleine's, likely slightly smaller. But would a 2 years old call her own pyjama, a pyjama that she hasn't inherited from her sister, Maddy's jammies, just because it is similar ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Cariad on November 07, 2013, 08:00:47 AM
Does dressing Amelie in Madeleine's clothes so soon after she had gone missing not seem rather callous to anyone ?
I dunno. If they had enough clothes for a week and suddenly they find themselves there for longer, plus I imagine that keeping on top of the washing wasn't high on there list of priorities.
I could imagine myself doing this. That's usually how I try to work with this case.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 07, 2013, 08:29:36 AM
I dunno. If they had enough clothes for a week and suddenly they find themselves there for longer, plus I imagine that keeping on top of the washing wasn't high on there list of priorities.
I could imagine myself doing this. That's usually how I try to work with this case.
I would agree, but they did have on-site family support almost from day 1 who could have, and probably did, look after that sort of thing.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 09:35:46 AM
I am still not sure that Jane Tanner did not see an abductor, or that The Smiths saw the same man. Madeleine could have been handed to another abductor somewhere along the way. This might account for the small time delay.
This does not mean that Scotland Yard are wrong about a holiday maker carrying his child. Scotland Yard made no specific statement about this. Only that it may have been.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 07, 2013, 09:43:05 AM
Now, I've never thought of it in terms of a relay race - what would be the point?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 10:03:35 AM
'As the family waited fearfully for news, they faced the agonising reality of trying to explain to their toddler twins why their big sister was no longer there.
"That was terrible for them," says John McCann, Mr McCann's elder brother, who has also travelled to Portugal to help search for his niece.
"Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas and the baby said: 'Maddy's jammies. Where is Maddy?' But she is too young to understand. And how do you explain? All we know is that Madeleine needs her family. She loves us, we love her. It is time for her to come home."'(Sydney Morning Herald, 15 May, 2007).
'Kate dressed Amelie in her sister's pyjamas.'
Now thats magic.
I thought Amelie had the same pyjama's as Madeleine? The one's with Eeyore on them?
Can't her dressing Amelie in Madeleine's pyjama's, Madeleine was almost four.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 10:17:05 AM
What would be the point of having more than one person involved in carrying. It only seems to complicate the issue without adding any benefit.
There is no reason for why this could not have happened. If either of them were seen, which they were, then it would have complicated witness statements, which it did.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benita on November 07, 2013, 10:19:33 AM
It certainly did - but not necessarily by changing carriers part way through. Nor is it clear who was doing the confusing.
the abductor/s obviously doing the confusing ..and knew what they were doing imo
I have a incline that the pj and sy aren't giving out what they are really doing ...I think I know what they up to ...its just a thought and has only just come to me this morning ... >@@(*&)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 10:44:47 AM
the abductor/s obviously doing the confusing ..and knew what they were doing imo
I have a incline that the pj and sy aren't giving out what they are really doing ...I think I know what they up to ...its just a thought and has only just come to me this morning ... >@@(*&)
I think that you are right. The present suspect is hardly going to do a runner. Meanwhile, look here, don't look there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benita on November 07, 2013, 10:49:15 AM
the abductor/s obviously doing the confusing ..and knew what they were doing imo
I have a incline that the pj and sy aren't giving out what they are really doing ...I think I know what they up to ...its just a thought and has only just come to me this morning ... >@@(*&)
I would sincerely hope that they were not.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benita on November 07, 2013, 10:58:03 AM
You don't seriously believe that Scotland Yard and The PJ are actually telling what they are doing, do you?
And besides, the current suspect was obviously up to no good, and could well have been involved with others. He obviously knew how to get into appartments so he had to be looked into. It is not the fault of Scotland Yard if The PJ is leaking like a sieve. Again.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 07, 2013, 11:01:53 AM
You don't seriously believe that Scotland Yard and The PJ are actually telling what they are doing, do you?
And besides, the current suspect was obviously up to no good, and could well have been involved with others. He obviously knew how to get into appartments so he had to be looked into. It is not the fault of Scotland Yard if The PJ is leaking like a sieve. Again.
That's what I said - I hoped they were not telling us what all that they were doing.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benita on November 07, 2013, 11:06:47 AM
What would be the point of having more than one person involved in carrying. It only seems to complicate the issue without adding any benefit.
I agree with you. Keep it simple.
Everyone talks about men being seen carrying children etc, where were all the women that night lol.
Anything to do with kids I dealt with even carrying child from a creche. Although I suppose perhaps women didnt feel safe there, which then doesnt make sense as didnt the McCanns say they FELT safe there....
Its a small village in Portugal, even the people living there said they were looking for a child who had wondered off, not a child who had been abducted because it was a child friendly place to live.
So where were all the other women holiday makers?
Didnt Jez Wilkins wife say that on the tennis court there were at least 10 little blonde girls running around you couldnt tell who was who, so where were all the parents belonging to these children?
It also seems the creche was busy too, so there must have been quite a few adults about.
Just seems odd the only people about were the Tapas 7....
I personally do not believe an abductor would be seen taking away the child if we are to believe the family were targeted etc....
They would simply know by watching that the window of opportunity to take a child was ZERO because of all the twoing and froing on the 3rd, however, i would have thought any other night when the chidlren were left longer would have been more opportunistic very strange.
I dont think an abduction was impossible, nor the child wondering off and being picked up BUT in the area the child was I find it hard to believe that someone would be so bold and clever enough to do it without leaving any trace whatsover.
And usually sadly chidlren snatched in this way are sexually abused and killed and dumped soon afterwards....horrible thought but truth.
I am inclined to dismiss both sightings anyway if they are believing it is tractor man, then the sightings can be discounted....
Although I would have thought a 6ft 2ins tall and handsome black guy would have been noticed hanging around apartments people are always more suspicious of darker coloured people then white sorry to say so he would have been noticed surely....
The front door. This is bugging me a bit.
I read that it was kept locked so would they keep the key in the lock? If this was the case no one could get in as the spare or copied key would not work...if someone tried to get in from the front...
I have a front door which is kept locked during the day, because otherwise anyone can just walk in, and I keep my key on a hook above incase of fire, and so my husband if he is in late can use his own key IF I leave my key in the lock he cant use his the other side.
I doubt they really used the front door to be honest.
My mums house is similar to the apartment. It has a back entrance with a large patio door, and the front door you have to go all around to get to it which is a phaff.
So EVERYONE goes through the back and the patio door when visiting her. The only time she opens the front door to be honest is if there is a delivery or when she attends her garden.
Otherwise the door is kept locked and the key is in it.
Just odd thoughts and scenarios. Sorry i am waffling on a bit lol, just find that NOTHING new has happened, and its all just old stuff being rehashed by the police. We are really no further forward...
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 11:27:23 AM
I don't think that Tannerman has been dismissed. But that's just me. I had already worked out what I thought happened. But it is always possible to be wrong.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 07, 2013, 11:28:52 AM
no jassi ..your not thinking about it ....has tannerman been dismissed or is that just what they are telling us ....? >@@(*&)
If you dismiss some of what the police say, then you have to dismiss everything - you cannot be selective
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benita on November 07, 2013, 11:29:05 AM
The front door. This is bugging me a bit.
I read that it was kept locked so would they keep the key in the lock? If this was the case no one could get in as the spare or copied key would not work...if someone tried to get in from the front...
I have a front door which is kept locked during the day, because otherwise anyone can just walk in, and I keep my key on a hook above incase of fire, and so my husband if he is in late can use his own key IF I leave my key in the lock he cant use his the other side. ==========================
you don't leave the key in on the inside of a yale lock it locks automatic ...only opens with key from outside ...was it a yale lock ...?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 11:32:33 AM
It is possible to open a locked door from outside even if a key is on the inside, although not with all doors. But a Cleaner seems to have managed it on that appartment door according to the statement of one of the clients who stayed in 5A.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2013, 11:37:04 AM
I dunno. If they had enough clothes for a week and suddenly they find themselves there for longer, plus I imagine that keeping on top of the washing wasn't high on there list of priorities.
I could imagine myself doing this. That's usually how I try to work with this case.
I'm sure there's a witness statement that states the McCann's clothes were taken to the laundry for them soon after the disappearance.
ETA 'It was through statements from several officials of the complex, linked to the laundry service, that the inspectors were to learn that the McCann had had some of the children's clothes washed, Madeleine's and also Sean's and Amelie's. "That would never have happened without the intervention of Mark Warner and especially the ambassador. They took advantage of the space we left for them, which was an error on our part," Gonçalo Amaral admits.
"Last Saturday (5/05/2007) I received a bag of clothes brought by Mark Warner officials, which were expressly stated as belonging to Madeleine's family - there were adults' clothes (male and female) and children's (...)," one of the laundry supervisors stated. If the laundry supervisor only admits to remembering about a pink skirt belonging to Madeleine, she is formally saying that there were indeed other of the little British girl's clothes, which a few work colleagues have elsewhere confirmed to the police.'
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 11:38:46 AM
You don't seriously believe that Scotland Yard and The PJ are actually telling what they are doing, do you?
And besides, the current suspect was obviously up to no good, and could well have been involved with others. He obviously knew how to get into appartments so he had to be looked into. It is not the fault of Scotland Yard if The PJ is leaking like a sieve. Again.
Can you clarify when was he up to know good?
He has never had a record since he was pardoned.....
When did he get time to rob all these apartments as from what his family said he was working up until he died....
Anyway I wouldnt personally put too much stock on this guy doing anything....
At this stage E. Monteiro is not being considered as the main and only suspect of the crime - this was assured by several PJ sources contacted by JN. It's just a “loose end, a lead that needs to be followed so no one can blame the PJ for not following all leads”.
In fact, the Cape-Verdean is not referenced for crimes of paedophilia or for kidnappings.
This is just not true. And Scotland Yard did not state categorically that they had dismissed Jane Tanners sighting.
The Police simply say what it suits them to say. This is perfectly normal.
Certainly is. It's just the same when Mr Redwood is asked questions by journalists. And they all ask him the exact same question again and again every single day of course.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 12:04:20 PM
The current suspect was pardoned in 1996, since when he was dismissed from The Ocean Club for pilfering, and is known to have broken into appartments at The Ocean Club to feed his drug habit. How much more suspicious can his presence in PdL on may the 3rd have been?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 07, 2013, 12:08:24 PM
I read that it was kept locked so would they keep the key in the lock? If this was the case no one could get in as the spare or copied key would not work...if someone tried to get in from the front...
I have a front door which is kept locked during the day, because otherwise anyone can just walk in, and I keep my key on a hook above incase of fire, and so my husband if he is in late can use his own key IF I leave my key in the lock he cant use his the other side. ==========================
you don't leave the key in on the inside of a yale lock it locks automatic ...only opens with key from outside ...was it a yale lock ...?
Hi Benita thanks hun.
This is what i read about this particular door and key....
The gate opens on to steps that lead straight to the balcony and in through the patio door. The kidnapper could But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key" - and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
Supporting the theory that the kidnap could be an inside job, he added: "I would say it is most likely there is at least one other key in circulation as most locks come with at least two spares when they are cut. But there are not many keys aroun like this one."
The current suspect was pardoned in 1996, since when he was dismissed from The Ocean Club for pilfering, and is known to have broken into appartments at The Ocean Club to feed his drug habit. How much more suspicious can his presence in PdL on may the 3rd have been?
Do burglars usually abduct children?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Cariad on November 07, 2013, 12:12:40 PM
The current suspect was pardoned in 1996, since when he was dismissed from The Ocean Club for pilfering, and is known to have broken into appartments at The Ocean Club to feed his drug habit. How much more suspicious can his presence in PdL on may the 3rd have been?
Really? Can you cite please?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 07, 2013, 12:14:47 PM
The current suspect was pardoned in 1996, since when he was dismissed from The Ocean Club for pilfering, and is known to have broken into appartments at The Ocean Club to feed his drug habit. How much more suspicious can his presence in PdL on may the 3rd have been?
show me a link where he has been caught doing so? Proof not just gossip in newspapers and hearsay.
This guy does not match the profile.
No one saw him on the 3rd in PDL. His phone pinged in the location, he lived less then 15 minutes away, his sister in law lived 5 minutes from PDL, and he simply could have sold his mobile.
I have not read one thing from the police which states this guy has a record beyond 1996. Even the 5 euros he is allegedgly supposed to have taken is no proof of anything and he was not REPORTED to the police for taking it, WHY?
His employers knew he had a record, surely they would have rang the police, they didnt...
I am suspicious of this 5euro, it was in those days about 3.00 tip money, NOT theiving....
I would appreciate a link so you can showe me this guys record from 1996...thank you.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 12:30:07 PM
show me a link where he has been caught doing so? Proof not just gossip in newspapers and hearsay.
This guy does not match the profile.
No one saw him on the 3rd in PDL. His phone pinged in the location, he lived less then 15 minutes away, his sister in law lived 5 minutes from PDL, and he simply could have sold his mobile.
I have not read one thing from the police which states this guy has a record beyond 1996. Even the 5 euros he is allegedgly supposed to have taken is no proof of anything and he was not REPORTED to the police for taking it, WHY?
His employers knew he had a record, surely they would have rang the police, they didnt...
I am suspicious of this 5euro, it was in those days about 3.00 tip money, NOT theiving....
I would appreciate a link so you can showe me this guys record from 1996...thank you.
I don't know who might have had his mobile, or if he was involved. But The PJ seem to think he was worth looking at. And even his family said he had a drug problem. Or are you suggesting that this is all made up garbage?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 12:41:01 PM
I don't know who might have had his mobile, or if he was involved. But The PJ seem to think he was worth looking at. And even his family said he had a drug problem. Or are you suggesting that this is all made up garbage?
And even his family said he had a drug problem.
I smoke weed occasionally & used to drink quite alot.
Strangely enough it really has given me an overwhelming desire to abduct children.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 07, 2013, 12:42:48 PM
I don't know who might have had his mobile, or if he was involved. But The PJ seem to think he was worth looking at. And even his family said he had a drug problem. Or are you suggesting that this is all made up garbage?
The word is HAD.
He HAD a drug problem when he was young hence he did some petty pilfering, BUT he was PARDONED in 1996 and allowed to stay in Portugal and not be deported back to Verde.
For him to be PARDONED, it would mean that he had behaved himself and also showed that he had changed, they dont just PARDON anyone.
I know several drug addicts who turned their lives around, and alcoholics too.
The fact he has a family and a lovely looking partner who seems to have a lot about her, and the fact he ALWAYS WORKED even to the day he DIED, shows that this man had something good about him.
I REFUSE to listen or read rubbish about this guy most of which is hearsay or turned into something else CHINESE WHISPERS.
The guy is dead he cant answer any of this. I go by FACTS not fiction.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 12:53:30 PM
Burglars don't abduct children, sometimes they kill them by accident. Al Capone was so shocked by what happened to the Lindbergh baby that he offered an enormous amount to whoever had taken him.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 01:02:37 PM
He HAD a drug problem when he was young hence he did some petty pilfering, BUT he was PARDONED in 1996 and allowed to stay in Portugal and not be deported back to Verde.
For him to be PARDONED, it would mean that he had behaved himself and also showed that he had changed, they dont just PARDON anyone.
I know several drug addicts who turned their lives around, and alcoholics too.
The fact he has a family and a lovely looking partner who seems to have a lot about her, and the fact he ALWAYS WORKED even to the day he DIED, shows that this man had something good about him.
I REFUSE to listen or read rubbish about this guy most of which is hearsay or turned into something else CHINESE WHISPERS.
The guy is dead he cant answer any of this. I go by FACTS not fiction.
So The Ocean Club sacked him unfairly, did they?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Cariad on November 07, 2013, 01:18:22 PM
Ask the people who leaked all of this information.
I'm asking you. You stated that he was known to break in to holiday apartments. You must have got that from somewhere so I'm asking you to provide a cite to see how reliable this information is.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2013, 01:29:06 PM
I'm asking you. You stated that he was known to break in to holiday apartments. You must have got that from somewhere so I'm asking you to provide a cite to see how reliable this information is.
Ask the people who leaked this information. Or you could prove that I am wrong.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 07, 2013, 01:36:13 PM
Not the same man. Smithman is the key to solving this case (TIMELINE IS CRITICAL - SY) :
Speaking from his home in Drogheda, Co. Louth, Mr Smith recalled the sighting, which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner. In hindsight, the retired Mr Smith said, the mans rude behaviour should have aroused his suspicions.
He explained: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting.
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
"He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 02:45:44 PM
Not the same man. Smithman is the key to solving this case (TIMELINE IS CRITICAL - SY) :
Speaking from his home in Drogheda, Co. Louth, Mr Smith recalled the sighting, which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner. In hindsight, the retired Mr Smith said, the mans rude behaviour should have aroused his suspicions.
He explained: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting.
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
"He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."
Mr Smith was delicate enough not to state this to the Gardai. But people don't cross in a village at night without some kind of greeting, or even a gesture. I always thought that Smithman didn't answer because his accent could betray him. Who will believe Ms Tanner, who passed Mr McCann and saw him, wouldn't say "hi" ? Rude people ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Benita on November 07, 2013, 02:52:54 PM
Mr Smith was delicate enough not to state this to the Gardai. But people don't cross in a village at night without some kind of greeting, or even a gesture. I always thought that Smithman didn't answer because his accent could betray him. Who will believe Ms Tanner, who passed Mr McCann and saw him, wouldn't say "hi" ? Rude people ?
Gerry was talking to jez ..how rude would tanner of been if she interrupted their conversation just to say hi ... 8-)(--)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 07, 2013, 02:54:08 PM
Not the same man. Smithman is the key to solving this case (TIMELINE IS CRITICAL - SY) :
Speaking from his home in Drogheda, Co. Louth, Mr Smith recalled the sighting, which is strikingly similar to one by a friend of the McCanns, Jane Tanner. In hindsight, the retired Mr Smith said, the mans rude behaviour should have aroused his suspicions.
He explained: "The one thing we noted afterwards was that he gave us no greeting.
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
"He just put his head down and averted his eyes. This is very unusual in a tourist town at such a quiet time of the year."
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another.
Interesting that Mary Smith saw an inert child, but wasn't really sure enough that she was just 'asleep'. She was that uncertain over the status of the child that she felt the need to ask.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 07, 2013, 07:25:08 PM
I looked through all the press reports at http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html to find that the very first press report anywhere in the world of this sighting was in the Drogheda Independent on 6th June 2007 (although you'd have to be a very avid newspaper follower to pick that up same day in Germany)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 07, 2013, 09:25:49 PM
"We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police.
"I rang the Portuguese police and they took a statement from me on the phone. Then they asked me to make a statement to gardai, which I did in Drogheda two weeks after the disappearance.
"Two days later, Leicestershire police got on to us and said they wanted to speak to all nine of us. But we felt there was no point dragging grand children and the whole lot out to Portugal so just my eldest son, Peter, and youngest daughter, Aoife, and I flew to Luz to make a statement.
The couple (Martin & Mary) were with their daughter Aoife, their son Peter and his wife Sile, as well as four grandchildren Tadhg, Cole, Aisling and Eimear. 9 in total.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 07, 2013, 09:30:53 PM
"We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police.
"I rang the Portuguese police and they took a statement from me on the phone. Then they asked me to make a statement to gardai, which I did in Drogheda two weeks after the disappearance.
"Two days later, Leicestershire police got on to us and said they wanted to speak to all nine of us. But we felt there was no point dragging grand children and the whole lot out to Portugal so just my eldest son, Peter, and youngest daughter, Aoife, and I flew to Luz to make a statement.
The couple (Martin & Mary) were with their daughter Aoife, their son Peter and his wife Sile, as well as four grandchildren Tadhg, Cole, Aisling and Eimear. 9 in total.
So Mrs Smith didn't go to Portugal to make a statement - just father, son and daughter?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 07, 2013, 09:33:37 PM
Yes that is correct. No statement from Mary Smith.
"My wife Mary remembered afterwards that she asked him, 'Oh, is she asleep?' But he never acknowledged her one way or another. He just put his head down and averted his eyes." (Martin Smith)
Now if that doesn't arouse high suspicion then nothing will. Smithman has to be the main suspect in my eyes.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 09:56:50 PM
She was that uncertain over the status of the child that she felt the need to ask.
The little girl's eyes were closed, but Mary Smith was uncertain, she felt something weird without even imagining what it could be. Perhaps she thought the child was ill. It isn't the same to carry a sleeping child (muscular tension at rest), a child in a coma (still some muscular tonus) and a dead child (no muscular tension at all).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 10:06:21 PM
SY found a possible innocent Tannerman, but they certainly found no possible innocent Smithman. It was easier in the case of Tannerman since only the legs' bottom of a pyjama had been seen. In Smithman's case there's apparently no little blond white 4 girl brought to or taken from the creche this night around 10.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: ferryman on November 07, 2013, 10:11:14 PM
SY found a possible innocent Tannerman, but they certainly found no possible innocent Smithman. It was easier in the case of Tannerman since only the legs' bottom of a pyjama had been seen. In Smithman's case there's apparently no little blond white 4 girl brought to or taken from the creche this night around 10.
Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
The final PJ report says so.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 07, 2013, 10:20:46 PM
SY found a possible innocent Tannerman, but they certainly found no possible innocent Smithman. It was easier in the case of Tannerman since only the legs' bottom of a pyjama had been seen. In Smithman's case there's apparently no little blond white 4 girl brought to or taken from the creche this night around 10.
Releasing the efits was for more eye witnesses to hopefully come forward in order to positively identify him. IMO SY/PJ will know he's the main suspect whatever the public may think or are led to believe from leaked reports.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 07, 2013, 10:34:05 PM
Gerry was in the Tapas Restaurant at the time of the Smith sighting.
The final PJ report says so.
TIMELINE IS CRITICAL - SY. Matt Oldfield in his statement said Kate left to check at 9.50pm. I've given other examples of discrepancies in the written timeline. Rachael Oldfield said Jane Tanner left at 9.10pm. That tapas timeline says 9.20pm. There are other discrepancies. I believe the timeline is incorrect in that final PJ report indicating Kate left to check at 10pm. I believe the alarm was raised before 10pm.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 11:03:00 PM
Releasing the efits was for more eye witnesses to hopefully come forward in order to positively identify him. IMO SY/PJ will know he's the main suspect whatever the public may think or are led to believe from leaked reports.
Certainly. Inspector Amaral at least was right to think Smithman was the main suspect !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 07, 2013, 11:09:37 PM
TIMELINE IS CRITICAL - SY. Matt Oldfield in his statement said Kate left to check at 9.50pm. I've given other examples of discrepancies in the written timeline. Rachael Oldfield said Jane Tanner left at 9.10pm. That tapas timeline says 9.20pm. There are other discrepancies. I believe the timeline is incorrect in that final PJ report indicating Kate left to check at 10pm. I believe the alarm was raised before 10pm.
Yes, on the 10th of May Mr Oldfield said Mrs McCann went there alone at 9:50. He likely thought she would hear if his daughter was crying. Mr Oldfield didn't have to check before 10.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 07, 2013, 11:23:50 PM
Certainly. Inspector Amaral at least was right to think Smithman was the main suspect !
Definitely when Smithman is identified Amaral can update his book 8)--))
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2013, 02:58:27 AM
WItness recollection several weeks after the event (MS statement): "Around 21H00 they left the restaurant and headed toward Kelly's bar ... They left (Kelly's bar) around 21H55." Golfinho restuarnt payment records state that the witnesses left the Golfino restuarant not at 21:00, but at 21:27. (see Volume 12A, page 3258). True time = time recalled by witness + 27minutes. Carry that forward and what does this indicate for the sighting time???
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 08, 2013, 06:19:46 AM
WItness recollection several weeks after the event (MS statement): "Around 21H00 they left the restaurant and headed toward Kelly's bar ... They left (Kelly's bar) around 21H55." Golfinho restuarnt payment records state that the witnesses left the Golfino restuarant not at 21:00, but at 21:27. (see Volume 12A, page 3258). True time = time recalled by witness + 27minutes. Carry that forward and what does this indicate for the sighting time???
Yes well I never could understand how anyone could say for definite what time someone did or saw something at night when your out enjoying yourself....
Not unless your clock watching and how many people do that on holiday?
So that means they were at the other bar later and could have stayed later.....or not....
I personally take no interest in the Smith sighting and the E fits should never have been released as they just look like GM even my cleaner when i showed them side by side said the images looked like him and the second one of the same man even more so.
The thing is if you have an image in mind, and you have seen that image then do an Efit it will cloud your judgement and your memory IMHO....
I am sure they saw someone but I am not convinced they really could identify him.
I know the Efits were done in 2008 but they still had been exposed to GMs image. Lots of people have said to me its GM....I dont think it is or was....personally, cant see why he would be there in the first place....but that is just my opinion.....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 08, 2013, 11:32:07 AM
WItness recollection several weeks after the event (MS statement): "Around 21H00 they left the restaurant and headed toward Kelly's bar ... They left (Kelly's bar) around 21H55." Golfinho restuarnt payment records state that the witnesses left the Golfino restuarant not at 21:00, but at 21:27. (see Volume 12A, page 3258). True time = time recalled by witness + 27minutes. Carry that forward and what does this indicate for the sighting time???
There's no Kelly's bill between 21:50 and 22:16 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg) They arrived at the Golfino around 19:30. It's possible they looked at their watch only in the bar, since PSs family had to leave early the next morning.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2013, 11:55:33 AM
Martin Smith Statement
They left that establishment around 21H55. Urged, states that when he passed this individual, it must have been around 22H00. He was wearing cream or beige-coloured cloth trousers in a classic cut.
Aoife Smith Statement
Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. She is about 60% certain. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. His hair was thick-ish, light brown in colour, cut in a short style, short from behind (normal) and a bit longer on the top.
PETER DANIEL SMITH Statement
In Kelly's Bar (he does not remember the name of the street it is on) they had a few drinks and left there around 21H50/22H00. She had blond hair, of medium tone, without being very shiny. Her skin was white, typically British. He did not see her eyes as she was asleep and her eyelids were closed. When asked, he states that the individual did not say a word nor did the child as she was sleeping deeply. Adds also that his son TA*** was questioned in Ireland and said that the individual was wearing a long-sleeved coat, black in colour, and that the child was barefoot.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2013, 12:35:56 PM
Now what were the men wearing at the Tapas bar? Not when the police arrived but in the Tapas bar. Oh that's right nobody knows LOL.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 08, 2013, 12:44:58 PM
Did anybody even think to ask?
I'm sure I read, long ago, that there had been some swapping of tops between the females, but probably just another of these strange rumours.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 08, 2013, 12:55:04 PM
I haven't read about people swapping tops where did you read this can you remember?
I'm afraid not. It was years ago, probably back in the days of the Mirror forum. If it happened at all, there will no doubt be some innocent explanation, like one of the women being cold and borrowing a jacket.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2013, 01:07:08 PM
If anyone was wearing beige or mustard like coloured trousers in the tapas bar then they would be a potential suspect straight away. You can collect a coat in a second from an apartment or somewhere else so I wouldn't put as much emphasis on the coat/jacket but the Smith sighting of trousers YES! They should be questioned on this point and any eye witnesses at the tapas bar. Jez Wilkins was talking to Gerry. Wasn't he asked what he was wearing? I will check but it seems strange if he wasn't.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 08, 2013, 01:27:51 PM
I'm afraid not. It was years ago, probably back in the days of the Mirror forum. If it happened at all, there will no doubt be some innocent explanation, like one of the women being cold and borrowing a jacket.
That was from one of d levys "stories"
What is not true/does not exist/incorrect fabrications :
The 24 photos - The story according to Duarte: a Spanish tourist that was on the night of 3 of May having dinner at the Ocean Club's restaurant known as Tapas Bar takes some photos which show a few of the Tapas group members and how some, like Kate McCann, changed clothes; then the Spanish tourist back in Spain is robbed, his apartment was broken in and the camera with the alleged photos is taken; then the camera and the thief are found by the Spanish police; then Duarte worked as a middle man between the Spanish tourist the PJ and the British media who had an interest and wanted to buy the alleged photos.
From J Morais's blog
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2013, 01:51:31 PM
Nothing from Jez Wilkins on Gerry's clothing. Ask the question SY?
This was interesting:
Jeremy Wilkins: 'Now I know her name, description of the clothes and photos which I have seen in the press. At that time I knew of her as a member of the group but did not know her name. I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment. I do not know if it was her apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing the colour purple.'
What is not true/does not exist/incorrect fabrications :
The 24 photos - The story according to Duarte: a Spanish tourist that was on the night of 3 of May having dinner at the Ocean Club's restaurant known as Tapas Bar takes some photos which show a few of the Tapas group members and how some, like Kate McCann, changed clothes; then the Spanish tourist back in Spain is robbed, his apartment was broken in and the camera with the alleged photos is taken; then the camera and the thief are found by the Spanish police; then Duarte worked as a middle man between the Spanish tourist the PJ and the British media who had an interest and wanted to buy the alleged photos.
From J Morais's blog
Thanks. Glad I wasn't imagining it all.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2013, 09:26:51 PM
There's no Kelly's bill between 21:50 and 22:16 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg) They arrived at the Golfino around 19:30. It's possible they looked at their watch only in the bar, since PSs family had to leave early the next morning.
Aoife said they arrived at Kelly's bar at around 9.30pm and left at 10pm. The other two (Martin & Peter) said they arrived at 9pm but no receipts exist until 9.39pm. Can you please confirm? Thanks.
9.39 13.75 euros
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2013, 09:34:31 PM
There's no Kelly's bill between 21:50 and 22:16 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg) They arrived at the Golfino around 19:30. It's possible they looked at their watch only in the bar, since PSs family had to leave early the next morning.
I think they were served their drinks at Kellys Bar at 21:39 (13.75 euros). I am assuming that the bar requires payment when drinks are served.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2013, 10:02:57 PM
Hi pathfinder yes I agree 21:39 (13.75 euros) - that is the very first Kellys till record that can belong to the witnesses. The previous till record at 20:52 (1.50 euros) is far too early (and too cheap).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 08, 2013, 10:23:41 PM
Thanks pegasus. Yes I agree there were 9 in total so it would be quite costly for a round of drinks (4 adults). If they bought the drinks at 9.39pm (13.75 euros) then I think it would take at least 15 minutes for them all to finish their drinks. That seems to fit with the 9.55-10pm leaving Kelly's bar estimate time.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 09, 2013, 04:01:09 AM
I think people remember how long they were at a place, much better than they remember the exact times they arrived and left.
Witness A recalls being at Kellys for about 30 minutes. P and M don't say directly however they imply it was longer.
Going conservativly by A's 30 minutes, assume it takes 5 minutes for the bargirl to pour the drinks (its easy to prove there was no queue). So that would give arrival at Kellys at 2134, drinks served at 2139 (till reciept), and if A's 30 minutes is correct that would give departare from Kellys at 1004. (The durations implied indirectly by M and P would place it later).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 09, 2013, 06:38:57 AM
"We were home two weeks when my son rang up and asked was he dreaming or did we meet a man carrying a child the night Madeleine was taken. We all remembered that we had the same recollection. I felt we should report it to the police.
"I rang the Portuguese police and they took a statement from me on the phone. Then they asked me to make a statement to gardai, which I did in Drogheda two weeks after the disappearance.
"Two days later, Leicestershire police got on to us and said they wanted to speak to all nine of us. But we felt there was no point dragging grand children and the whole lot out to Portugal so just my eldest son, Peter, and youngest daughter, Aoife, and I flew to Luz to make a statement.
The couple (Martin & Mary) were with their daughter Aoife, their son Peter and his wife Sile, as well as four grandchildren Tadhg, Cole, Aisling and Eimear. 9 in total.
Thanks for that Pathfinder I did read this ages ago but forgot about it....
So if they thought they were dreaming just how much did they see?
Obviously the sighting didnt upset or bother them much that not really.
I like the JT sighting dont think this sighting has anything to do with the case, I certainly never thought it was GM, why on earth would he do that?
No I just think it was a seconds sighting when they were walking in a lit dark street, they saw someone possibly carrying a child thought nothing of it..and walked on.
Personally I dont think any abductor is going to be walking that far from the apartment where the child was taken. It makes no sense. There was a dark area and a car park at the front of the apartment and a car could have easily been parked away towards the Lagos road, and the abductor had no need whatsoever to go into PDL.
Thats my opinion only. It isnt logical. I never thought this sighting was viable way back in 2008, and never thought Tanners was either ever.
No logically for me, some how the front door was used, was it an inside job perhaps, as the key was usual.
I had a thought way back about a women taking her. I dont know why it just keeps popping up. I have had all kinds of things pop up like maintenance men etc, but from the beginning i wondered about a women. Someone she knew. Go in the front door pick her up even she woke she wouldnt be frightened if it was a face she knew, then back out the front door, even perhaps allowing her to walk to a waiting car or back to a house to be taken on.....perhaps this was the scent the GNR dogs found.
Anyway just thoughts but it would work for me if someone had access to that front door.....thats the key to this I think...
I just dont see anyone taking her and walking through PDL it was supposed to be a holiday complex with people walking and milling about, it was one of the quietest i have ever heard of lol...no one about...just a few.....
Poor maddy will we ever know what happened to her.
After all these years NOTHING NEW has come up really just a lot of Who Shot John theorys and sightings....and possible suspects who are dead......
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2013, 03:14:03 PM
Hi, I wouldn't read too much into the dreaming comment. Just a figure of speech and I doubt all 9 were dreaming 8)-)))
Aiofe seemed to know more about the correct time - maybe because she was not drinking alcohol. She said they arrived at Kelly's bar at around 9.30pm and left 30 mins later at 10pm so from that the Smithman sighting was maybe 10.03pm estimate time (possibly a little bit later see Pegasus post above).
They probably didn't consider that a possible abductor was walking with the child through the streets. First thing you'd think if you heard about an abduction, would be, "Did anyone see the getaway vehicle?" It was probably later when they all discussed it they found that some of them noticed the girl was in a deep sleep and in hindsight thought that was strange. Barefeet, no blanket or coat to keep her warm etc.
I definitely have come to the opinion that Madeleine was outside the apartment at 8.30pm. Jane Tanner never saw the abductor because the window was closed at the time of her sighting. The bag witness statement I was hoping to find seems to be missing from the files. The bag IMO was used to store the clothes that were on the wardrobe shelf where Eddie barked.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 03:44:52 PM
Aoife seemed to know more about the correct time - maybe because she was not drinking alcohol. She said they arrived at Kelly's bar at around 9.30pm and left 30 mins later at 10pm so from that the Smithman sighting was maybe 10.03pm estimate time (possibly a little bit later see Pegasus post above). I'd agree with that, since Aoife was aware of the time they left the Golfino and of the time spent at Kelly's
They probably didn't consider that a possible abductor was walking with the child through the streets. First thing you'd think if you heard about an abduction, would be, "Did anyone see the getaway vehicle?" Of course, they saw a father and a daughter and not Erlkönig !
I definitely have come to the opinion that Madeleine was outside the apartment at 8.30pm. What do you mean ? In the flowerbed ?
Jane Tanner never saw the abductor because the window was closed at the time of her sighting. The bag witness statement I was hoping to find seems to be missing from the files. The bag IMO was used to store the clothes that were on the wardrobe shelf where Eddie barked. Which clothes ? And why ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2013, 03:54:13 PM
Hypothesis: Bag was placed down in/next to the flower bed at the bottom of outside apartment steps to check that the coast was clear. When coast was clear, bag taken from/next to flower bed and concealed outside before 8.30pm. Smithman goes to back to hidden outside bag in the first searches at 10pm, retrieves what's inside the bag and is seen passing the Smith family. A bag was needed for concealment which was the one that was previously used to store the clothes on wardrobe shelf and where Eddie later barked.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 04:17:52 PM
Why would Smithman conceal outside ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 09, 2013, 04:26:44 PM
So are we saying that we don't know at what time The Smiths saw this man carrying a child? I thought The PJ had sorted that long ago. But then I thought they had sorted a lot of things.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 09, 2013, 04:44:49 PM
If the witnesses were served their drinks at 21:39, then SY's estimate of the sighting being at 22:00 allows very little time to relax in Kellys, especially with lots of young kids and toilet trips. Also we do not know whether a following till record (for example at 21:46 and 21:49) might also be relevant.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 09, 2013, 04:59:23 PM
If the witnesses were served their drinks at 21:39, then SY's estimate of the sighting being at 22:00 allows very little time to relax in Kellys, especially with lots of young kids and toilet trips. Also we do not know whether a following till record (for example at 21:46 and 21:49) might also be relevant.
So the Smiths could have left earlier or later? Hmm. I shall have to have a think about that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 05:03:22 PM
If the witnesses were served their drinks at 21:39, then SY's estimate of the sighting being at 22:00 allows very little time to relax in Kellys, especially with lots of young kids and toilet trips. Also we do not know whether a following till record (for example at 21:46 and 21:49) might also be relevant.
They might only have had coffees (they had none at the Dolphin where they ordered 2 bottles of Matteus Rose and 5 coca-colas).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 09, 2013, 05:32:47 PM
AnnaGuedes your research is good. I am currently thinking the sighting was at some time between 22:00 and 22:25.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 09, 2013, 05:35:40 PM
If you are planning on setting up an abduction then the abductee can't be in the apartment - "she's gone, an abductor must have taken her". Some place else is a possibility but I believe outside due to the first searches going on outside at 10pm and Smithman taking the risk i.e. having to move her through streets (he did use quiet back streets (route was quickly planned prior) but didn't count on a big family group of 9 coming past) a second time further away from the apartment to a better hiding place. I think the Smith family would have passed Smithman 10 to10:05pm estimate time.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 07:02:56 PM
If you are planning on setting up an abduction then the abductee can't be in the apartment - "she's gone, an abductor must have taken her". Some place else is a possibility but I believe outside due to the first searches going on outside at 10pm and Smithman taking the risk i.e. having to move her through streets (he did use quiet back streets (route was quickly planned prior) but didn't count on a big family group of 9 coming past) a second time further away from the apartment to a better hiding place. I think the Smith family would have passed Smithman 10 to10:05pm estimate time.
I don't think that Smithman stored in a bag nor planned anything more than disposing rapidly, definitively and not too close by.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2013, 07:28:16 PM
At what time do you think Madeleine left the apartment?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 07:34:06 PM
I would say five-three to ten.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2013, 07:35:29 PM
Thanks. Carried out and not concealed?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 09, 2013, 07:37:38 PM
You discount the possibility of her being stored outside earlier - say in the flower bed area ?
I think she left the flat through the main, north door.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2013, 07:55:59 PM
That makes sense but I don't agree as the tapas group were around the apartment outside at that time. One was at the back of the apartment in the car park area and others were going back to their apartments that way to check on the kids. I'm not saying it's not possible but I still think the bag concealment theory. Is there any information on what luggage they arrived with in the files? Thanks again.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 08:30:34 PM
That makes sense but I don't agree as the tapas group were around the apartment outside at that time. One was at the back of the apartment in the car park area and others were going back to their apartments that way to check on the kids. I'm not saying it's not possible but I still think the bag concealment theory. Is there any information on what luggage they arrived with in the files? Thanks again.
I see what you mean, but I think their tendency would be to search on the south side of the building, none of them says s/he searched the car park. It isn't impossible that Madeleine left the flat through the door-window however. The distance between the gate and the alley way is only a few meters and visibility was good. The alley path had the advantage to be very dark and to lead to the upper car park, the one that belongs to G4. I don't think there's any indication of their luggages in the PJ Files.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 09, 2013, 08:38:54 PM
They had two main luggage items (plus the usual small carry-on stuff). Processos Vol I Page 6.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 09, 2013, 09:34:56 PM
They are copies of the two luggage labels. The PJ got these copies from the airline.
What are these 4 "ema" with different numbers ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 09, 2013, 10:31:34 PM
Plane tickets. EMA is the airline.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 09, 2013, 10:32:26 PM
Not sure. Found this:
EMA is for East Midlands.
5 tags: 2 tags with WW5531 McCann/Gerald 28 Apr 07 (confirming the trip to PDL).
On another subject - have you got any big images of the crime scene? There are trousers lying on the bed (parents room) and a black top/jacket on the sofa in the living room? I want to see these in more detail if possible. Thanks.
5 tags: 2 tags with WW5531 McCann/Gerald 28 Apr 07 (confirming the trip to PDL) and 3 small tags( I believe are the leftover you are talking about) with XH361687, XH361803, XH361599 -EMA - FR 1676 and the date 10/4/07.
On another subject - have you got any big images of the crime scene? There are trousers lying on the bed (parents room) and a black top/jacket on the sofa in the living room? I want to see these in more detail if possible. Thanks.
Why two tags for what seems to be the same luggage to Faro (FAO) ? FR 1676 is the code for Ryanair flights to Stockholm. A trip on 10th of April ? The beige thing on top of the bed is more some fleece.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 12:12:03 AM
They can be ignored. Don't even know if that's McCann's. I will edit it out.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 12:16:52 AM
Anne, the tags could relate to this easter trip in April.
Kate and Gerry McCann happily talked about their first family holiday in Ireland at Easter where they spent five blissful days with Madeleine and her two-year-old twin sister and brother, Amelie and Sean.
"It was the first time we had been back to Donegal as a family and the first time Kate was there," Gerry said as the couple seemed lost for a moment in an idyllic place and time.
"It was a real big family get-together with all of my extended family and close friends. It was a fantastic holiday and the kids had a ball. There were 27 of us in all and we took three cottages in Dunloe. We spent the first two days on the beach. The weather was gorgeous and Madeleine and the kids just ran up and down the sand dunes," Gerry McCann said, adding that it reminded him of so many of his childhood summers there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 12:49:48 AM
Balcony view from behind. I think there were more trees in 2007 (in the corner) but it's still a bit of an eye opener looking straight at the window? Maybe light was missing?
Balcony view from behind. I think there were more trees in 2007 (in the corner) but it's still a bit of an eye opener looking straight at the window? Maybe light was missing?
There were many beautiful false peppertrees.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 12:57:54 AM
Blocking the window view?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 01:24:43 AM
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 10, 2013, 01:43:52 AM
One of the group walked past at about 21.53? and if the lighting had been as good as in the 2nd photo in AnneGuedes post, I think they would have noticed if the shutter was up. However I think the lighting was much worse in May 2007. Shame because if the lighting had been good, it would have enabled us to conclude that the shutter was still closed at that time and was opened only after that time.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 01:49:45 AM
One of the group walked past at about 21.53? and if the lighting had been as good as in the 2nd photo in AnneGuides post, I think they would have noticed if the shutter was up. However I think the lighting was much worse in May 2007. Shame because if the lighting had been good, it would have enabled us to conclude that the shutter was still closed at that time and was opened only after that time.
I'm pretty sure they never were opened (what for ?), just lifted a bit to give the impression they had been really completely lifted.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 10, 2013, 02:05:25 AM
If the Smith sighting was at 22:00, and if we assume the man they saw had just walked at top speed from the apartment, that would mean he left the apartment at what time? 21:55? Actually I think it is possible in under 5 minutes? So if Smithman is relevant, and if he walked at the fastest possible speed, that would mean he left apartment not before, but after the walkby at about 21.53.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 10, 2013, 03:01:43 AM
The only trouble with Pat Browns photos is that things had changed dramatically with that view
Both visibility of the apartment and the lighting were totally different at the time of the abduction
As JT corner was at the time of Pat Browns visit. Denuded of any trees . All those beautiful trees cut down. No wonder she got such a splendid view. Her photograph was taken from an apartment on the rhs of the RH road
When I was there in June/July 2010, I stood by 5A and looked hard, and the canopy of trees was sop dense that it blanked off all the windows opposite. Nobody could see what went on by that 5A window and the front door was completely out of view
Now, Trees as they wre at about the time of the abduction
Taken from almost the same angle as the photograph. You cant even see 5A
Now lets look at the lighting>
As you can see from this Pat Brown image, a powrful floodlight was illuminating the scene. There was NO light at the time of the abduction, and furthermore the tree canopy was so dense that the street lights couldn't penetrate thru, so the apartment front, window and door were in darkness
At the time of Pat Browns visit
Lighting after the search light had been fitted for Pat Browns photos was very good altho the front door aws in a compete shadow.
And how it was at the time of the abduction. Unfortunately we cannot see the true picture because of the need for light to take the picture there is some photographers illumination, but you will get the idea.
Lighting at the time of the abduction . None, almost complete darkness, only the photographers lamps or flash are lighting this scene and as you can see they are behind the camera in the foreground. Without this extra photographers illunination this door recess and the window would have been in almost total darknes. Cos the canopy of trees prevented any light from streelights from reaching these spots.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 12:11:53 PM
Thank you Sadie. That makes everything much clearer. There's a lot of tree cover there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 12:19:33 PM
If the Smith sighting was at 22:00, and if we assume the man they saw had just walked at top speed from the apartment, that would mean he left the apartment at what time? 21:55? Actually I think it is possible in under 5 minutes? So if Smithman is relevant, and if he walked at the fastest possible speed, that would mean he left apartment not before, but after the walkby at about 21.53.
He left at about 21:57 I would say.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Aiofe on November 10, 2013, 12:20:14 PM
plus or minus fifteen minutes. There is no reliable method to determine this with accuracy.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 12:34:58 PM
MO never did his check at 10pm so we can take that as a good indication that Kate raised the alarm before 10pm. Also Fiona Payne as Russell's steak arrived before 10pm. Some wouldn't know the time at all and just agreed with what the others said.
Russell O'Brien "So me and Matt walked back to the, to the, erm, to the flats, erm, this would have been about, about kind of twenty-five past nine."
"Erm, my food had arrived, well my food had arrived I think by this point. And, and then Kate, erm, erm, returned," (same as Fiona's recollection)
"Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. "
Jane Tanner 4078 “What time would this have been around?” Reply “I’d say it was around ten past nine’ish”.
Tapas timeline says 9.20pm. Rachael also said Jane left at 9.10pm. So why was 9.20pm put on the tapas timeline? That's 10 mins later. If we go by that indication then you move everything before 10pm not after.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 12:40:29 PM
MO never did his check at 10pm so we can take that as a good indication that Kate raised the alarm before 10pm. Also Fiona Payne as Russell's steak arrived before 10pm. Some wouldn't know the time at all and just agreed with what the others said.
Russell O'Brien "So me and Matt walked back to the, to the, erm, to the flats, erm, this would have been about, about kind of twenty-five past nine."
"Erm, my food had arrived, well my food had arrived I think by this point. And, and then Kate, erm, erm, returned," (same as Fiona's recollection)
"Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. "
Jane Tanner 4078 “What time would this have been around?” Reply “I’d say it was around ten past nine’ish”.
Tapas timeline says 9.20pm. Rachael also said Jane left at 9.10pm. So why was 9.20pm put on the tapas timeline? That's 10 mins later. If we go by that indication then you move everything before 10pm not after.
When asked, he (Ricardo O.) says that on 3rd May he only remembers that one guest from the table left for about 10 minutes, given that when he was about to serve the respective plate he was told to hold the food back for a few minutes, and that it was about 15 minutes before the guest returned, at about 21.45. Vol. II, pp. 266-68 06.05.2007
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 02:36:09 PM
Yes we're looking as early as 9.50pm or 9.55pm the latest for the alert. This would give anyone enough time to meet the Smith family on those first searches if they did meet at around 10pm.
"Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. " (Russell O'Brien)
That is important because it indicates that Gerry was indeed out searching with the others and they all split up in those first searches. Now what direction did they each go? I'll go this way, you go that way etc. They were running not walking.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 10, 2013, 02:43:10 PM
Yes we're looking as early as 9.50pm or 9.55pm the latest for the alert. This would give anyone enough time to meet the Smith family on those first searches if they did meet at around 10pm.
"Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. " (Russell O'Brien)
That is important because it indicates that Gerry was indeed out searching with the others and they all split up in those first searches. Now what direction did they each go? I'll go this way, you go that way etc.
Certainly one of them (?Payne) was around the pool area and another one (Mat?) went to reception to contact the police, so just who was searching the wider area in the early moments ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 02:45:12 PM
There's Russell and Gerry out somewhere else searching.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 10, 2013, 02:47:33 PM
Not many, is it? If they split up and went different ways, as would be likely, then each one would have little idea of where the others were at any given moment.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 02:50:39 PM
"somebody went back to the Tapas both to let Diane know about everything you know and I presume the waiters will have been spoken to but it wasn’t, not by me”. (RO)
Who was that? David Payne?
"I then did a solitary search down the, the west side of the apartments into the car park and shopping centre as I discussed, err there was then a, a joint search with me, Matt and Dave coming, sweeping down the town err towards the ri, the river, err towards the sea and erm then we split up and searched the beach." (RO)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 10, 2013, 02:53:35 PM
"somebody went back to the Tapas both to let Diane know about everything you know and I presume the waiters will have been spoken to but it wasn’t, not by me”. (RO)
Who was that? David Payne?
"I then did a solitary search down the, the west side of the apartments into the car park and shopping centre as I discussed, err there was then a, a joint search with me, Matt and Dave coming, sweeping down the town err towards the ri, the river, err towards the sea and erm then we split up and searched the beach." (RO)
So obviously Gerry was somewhere else at this time, though frustratingly, we don't know exactly what this time was.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 02:58:25 PM
David Payne
I say at some stage I went back and asked Dianne to just, could you go and stay with the children. I did a sweep of the err the pool err and the area you know immediately around err the Ocean Club, then met up with Matt and err Russell.
1485 ”Yeah so you’ve started to take part in the searches and you’ve taken part with Matt and Russell.” Reply ”Mm.” 1485 ”You’ve done a bit of a loop of the…” Reply ”Yeah.” 1485 ”Down to the Supermarket. Just tell me…” Reply ”I mean the…” 1485 ”You went back, subsequently back to your apartment and then bedtime and then…” Reply ”Yeah I mean my, my, you know a lot of the movements you know the, initially with the sweep that I did straight away round the complex I was on, you know I did that on my own err you know, going up to the room, that bit I did on my own and where I swept down to the beach and walked along you know and shouted for Madeleine and seeing other people as I went along you know that was purely, I was running and I was doing that on my own. Then when I went back to the apartment, then swept up you know at some stage looking up at the, the area above the apartment to the side, looking in the rough err some rough land which was on the way to the err Millennium err where we ate, err and there was err bumped into Dan, he was looking, you know the tennis pro, looking there you know err I say that was another part of the search.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 02:59:06 PM
Someone is missing?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 03:24:14 PM
Yes we're looking as early as 9.50pm or 9.55pm the latest for the alert. This would give anyone enough time to meet the Smith family on those first searches if they did meet at around 10pm.
"Gerry, just said ‘Look, let’s just’, erm, ‘let’s just split up and find’, erm, you know, ‘see if we can find her, see if she’s just wandered out’. " (Russell O'Brien)
That is important because it indicates that Gerry was indeed out searching with the others and they all split up in those first searches. Now what direction did they each go? I'll go this way, you go that way etc. They were running not walking.
There was no organisation, they run in all directions, thinking that she couldn't be far away. The Oldfields apparently went straight to their flat and the McCanns to theirs. You might be right about the flowerbed, but no bag. None of them says they went on this dark alley path. After turning right between the two buildings and on reaching the G5 carpark, there are little steps on the left that lead to the upper G4 carpark. This carpark entry/exit leaves you almost at the corner of Primeiro de Maio/Agostinho da Silva.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 04:06:00 PM
So obviously Gerry was somewhere else at this time, though frustratingly, we don't know exactly what this time was.
Nobody reports searching with him and as well he never pretended he searched. However : he (Mr McCann) closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside. "They" (not "we") continued with searches outside around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW who went to the secondary reception [where] the event was communicated to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been kidnapped. He refutes, peremptorily, the notion [idea/hypothesis] that MADELEINE could have left the apartment by her own means. (10th of May) He doesn't search because he has no doubt Madeleine has been abducted : logical.
-- When asked why instead of scouring the land next to the complex they stayed inside the apartment, he replies that it did not happen that way. While the guests and employees of the resort were searching, he went to the main Reception to check whether they had called the Police, and told Kate to wait inside the apartment. After going to the Reception he went back to the apartment where he stayed in the living room and in their bedroom. (7th of September)
Just after ten past ten, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club’s twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police. curious precision of time in "Madeleine" and again At 10.35 the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back down to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening.
But, as well curiously, no indication of time here : Gerry had been over to the Mini Club above the twenty-four-hour reception, MO did that before ! thinking that if Madeleine had been left somewhere, she might possibly make her way back to any place that was familiar to her. Compare this motive to the one given by Mr McCann in his 7th of September statement... The MiniClub is right on top of the Main Reception.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 10, 2013, 04:12:19 PM
Did anybody else see Gerry lifting the shutters or is this just on his say so ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Did anybody else see Gerry lifting the shutters or is this just on his say so ?
In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought. "Madeleine"
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 04:59:43 PM
I believe Smithman ran towards the wasteland area where the bag was hidden inside a bin. The bins weren't emptied until early morning on the 4th. Did the cadaver dogs go inside all of the bins to check? They checked the wasteland area - nothing found. I think Smithman had an awful shock after he had finished tennis.
Also is there an underground car park towards the Smith family sighting - just up pass the tennis courts? Does anyone know please?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 08:43:35 PM
I believe Smithman ran towards the wasteland area where the bag was hidden inside a bin. The bins weren't emptied until early morning on the 4th. Did the cadaver dogs go inside all of the bins to check? They checked the wasteland area - nothing found. I think Smithman had an awful shock after he had finished tennis.
Also is there an underground car park towards the Smith family sighting - just up pass the tennis courts? Does anyone know please?
No cadaver dog checked the bins and, no, there's no underground car park in PDL (some buildings might have a private one).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 09:30:15 PM
Thanks Anne. I think the cadaver dogs should check inside the bins? If they find one positive sign inside a bin it's evidence.
I'm now thinking the child was possibly wrapped up inside Smithman's black jacket when hidden in the dark after passing the Smith family down towards church/rocky shore area.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 10:11:30 PM
Thanks Anne. I think the cadaver dogs should check inside the bins? If they find one positive sign inside a bin it's evidence.
I'm now thinking the child was possibly wrapped up inside Smithman's black jacket when hidden in the dark after passing the Smith family down towards church/rocky shore area.
Portugal had no cadaver dogs then, but tracker dogs and rescue dogs. Those usually are repelled by cadaver scent, so they would be of no use for bins. Handlers by rule don't bring their sniffer dogs in too smelly parts, because the dogs exhaust themselves trying to find the right scent. People mock this, saying the dog is attracted by garbage. This is shameful, the dog tries very hard to discriminate. I'm talking of professionally trained dogs of course. I'm pretty sure no dog smelt the bins. The files say that the bins were checked on the 7th, much too late. Some benevolent searchers searched some bins on the 4th. Too late. I was told the PJ went on the landfill. Too late. Hundred of tons of compressed garbage had been deposited since the 3rd of May. If Smithman, scared that an autopsy would determine the cause and manner of death, intended to get rid of a body, this was the unique secure way.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 10:30:04 PM
Excellent information thanks. I'm still intrigued by the rental car and that witness reporting that the boot of the car was constantly open day and night and of course the dog alerts. That can't be dismissed.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 10, 2013, 10:31:44 PM
Portugal had no cadaver dogs then, but tracker dogs and rescue dogs. Those usually are repelled by cadaver scent, so they would be of no use for bins. Handlers by rule don't bring their sniffer dogs in too smelly parts, because the dogs exhaust themselves trying to find the right scent. People mock this, saying the dog is attracted by garbage. This is shameful, the dog tries very hard to discriminate. I'm talking of professionally trained dogs of course. I'm pretty sure no dog smelt the bins. The files say that the bins were checked on the 7th, much too late. Some benevolent searchers searched some bins on the 4th. Too late. I was told the PJ went on the landfill. Too late. Hundred of tons of compressed garbage had been deposited since the 3rd of May. If Smithman, scared that an autopsy would determine the cause and manner of death, intended to get rid of a body, this was the unique secure way.
Putting myself in smithmans position I don't think I could deposit in the trash & hope no one finds her, I would have the niggling doubt that the bin might get knocked over or the binmen might by chance notice the body as it enters the bin lorry. I can imagine a couple of more secure methods of disposal, however they would require pre-planning.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 10:34:55 PM
Agreed with the rental car suspicions I believe the child was moved from the bin by Smithman and not left in one.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 10:47:11 PM
Putting myself in smithmans position I don't think I could deposit in the trash & hope no one finds her, I would have the niggling doubt that the bin might get knocked over or the binmen might by chance notice the body as it enters the bin lorry. I can imagine a couple of more secure methods of disposal, however they would require pre-planning.
This happens unfortunately in Canada, the US and the UK. It takes months to dig and often they don't find. There's no way for the "bin men" to see what's inside of the bin. The lid is lifted only after the bin is put on the truck. A few hours later all the matter is poured in a big hole and pressed. Technically there's a window to look, but no one does. Then a sort of pad is brought to the landfill. It sounds awful, yes, but figure out what happens to a body some days after having been buried..
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 10:49:16 PM
Excellent information thanks. I'm still intrigued by the rental car and that witness reporting that the boot of the car was constantly open day and night and of course the dog alerts. That can't be dismissed.
I happened to forget frozen fish in my car's boot... I better not recall the scent !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 10, 2013, 10:58:08 PM
Certainly one of them (?Payne) was around the pool area and another one (Mat?) went to reception to contact the police, so just who was searching the wider area in the early moments ?
I am not underrstanding why you have not read the files and are making it up as you go along.
It was commented, by one of the waiters, that Gerry searched the tapas area and the pool, very soon after Madeleine was discoverd missing.
Maybe others did too? It might have been a a bit harem scarem, with everyone rechecking where others had looked as well as new areas.
No doubt about it. It was panic stations.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 11:04:05 PM
This was Pat Brown's idea, because of the funerary rituals of the Roman Catholics (she told me)
I've seen some of her blogs and images which are good but I don't know what she actually believes. I'm doing this from my own point of view. I do believe there's a connection with the church and getting the keys.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 11:28:10 PM
I've seen some of her blogs and images which are good but I don't know what she actually believes. I'm doing this from my own point of view. I do believe there's a connection with the church and getting the keys.
What I told you Pat Brown believed is dated beginning of 2011. There are many bins, now buried ones, near the church which stays in a (at night) desert square.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 11:37:29 PM
If anything was moved in the car then I believe it was done quickly after getting the car (first few weeks) and moved to it's final resting place. I believe the car in the Huelva trip may have done a detour and visited the resting place in the missing hours.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 11:43:00 PM
If anything was moved in the car then I believe it was done quickly after getting the car (first few weeks) and moved to it's final resting place. I believe the car in the Huelva trip may have done a detour and visited the resting place in the missing hours.
I guess you've read Mr Amaral's book, because you're describing what he thinks Smithman did.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 10, 2013, 11:50:08 PM
I had a quick look through his book online - didn't read it all. I don't agree with Gerry finding Madeleine behind the sofa on his check at 9.05pm. I think he thought that?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 10, 2013, 11:52:30 PM
I had a quick look through his book online - didn't read it all. I don't agree with Gerry finding Madeleine behind the sofa on his check at 9.05pm. I think he thought that?
Yes, he thought so. But about what happened after the alarm, he's close to you !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 10, 2013, 11:53:25 PM
Ah this is interesting, I conservitavely estimated it would take 5 minutes for a person walking very fast to get from the apartment to the (witness PS) sighting location.on Rua Escola. You are better qualified than me, do you think 3 minutes is more accurate?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 12:14:44 AM
Ah this is interesting, I conservitavely estimated it would take 5 minutes for a person walking very fast to get from the apartment to the (witness PS) sighting location.on Rua Escola. You are better qualified than me, do you think 3 minutes is more accurate?
It took me less than 3 minutes, but I was only carrying my bag. Smithman, more muscles than me, was carrying sliding 15 kg. So let's give him 4 minutes ! ;)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 11, 2013, 12:28:08 AM
I think the credit card machine at Dolpin, and the till at Kellys, are reasonably reliable methods.
The nurse can't reply for now.. I would trust Aoife Smith's notion of time, she wasn't in a hurry, having no flight to catch early morning. So she was in the last of the three groups the Smith family formed.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 12:58:17 AM
If it weren't so sad, your conversation trying to set the Mccanns up would be very funny.
SY are happy that they are not involved The PT police are happy that they arer not involved
Why cant you leave them alone? >@@(*&)
There has to be a reason why you want so desperately for the blame to fall on them
There has to be a reason !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 11, 2013, 01:03:29 AM
It took me less than 3 minutes, but I was only carrying my bag. Smithman, more muscles than me, was carrying sliding 15 kg. So let's give him 4 minutes ! ;)
Big thanks. So if Smithman was seen at the south end of Rua Escola at 22:00, and if he came from the apartment, then he left the apartment at about 21:56.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 01:06:25 AM
I believe he was running at least half the distance so make that 3 mins highest total time.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 01:22:40 AM
I believe he was running at least half the distance so make that 3 mins highest total time.
He was certainly walking fast, but not running, carrying wasn't easy (this is imo what Mr Smith noticed as clumsy). But he likely run on the way back, rua Directa up to the short cut, in this occurrence a long cut.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 11, 2013, 02:16:54 AM
He was certainly walking fast, but not running, carrying wasn't easy (this is imo what Mr Smith noticed as clumsy). But he likely run on the way back, rua Directa up to the short cut, in this occurrence a long cut.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 11, 2013, 11:36:50 AM
This is just a regurgitation from years ago. Someone who was weeks before the disappearance, but not at the time, as I recall. Amazing what they'll do to sell papers
I wonder what SY make of this ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 11, 2013, 12:03:32 PM
This is just a regurgitation from years ago. Someone who was weeks before the disappearance, but not at the time, as I recall. Amazing what they'll do to sell papers
I wonder what SY make of this ?
Well it's just more rollocks from the Sun.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 11, 2013, 02:36:47 PM
Putting myself in smithmans position I don't think I could deposit in the trash & hope no one finds her, I would have the niggling doubt that the bin might get knocked over or the binmen might by chance notice the body as it enters the bin lorry. I can imagine a couple of more secure methods of disposal, however they would require pre-planning.
Perhaps the body was meant to be found. If it was Gerry seen by the Smiths he may have wanted the body to be found but for it to be far enough from their apartment so it didn't implicate them. Any signs of trauma/sedation could then be blamed on the abductor.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 03:01:25 PM
Provide the statement that Gerry was searching the tapas bar area in those first 5 minutes? David Payne did and told Dianne Webster to go and she went straight to the apartment and found Kate alone with the twins.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: ferryman on November 11, 2013, 03:05:07 PM
Perhaps the body was meant to be found. If it was Gerry seen by the Smiths he may have wanted the body to be found but for it to be far enough from their apartment so it didn't implicate them. Any signs of trauma/sedation could then be blamed on the abductor.
The Body?
What body?
If this has already been posted, I'm naturally delighted, because this article should be repeated as often as possible:
From today's Times:
For [ censored word ]s of the poor McCanns it’s open season Janice Turner
Print Share via Facebook Twitter Google+ Published at 12:01AM, October 17 2013 Notebook What a hard week for Kate and Gerry McCann. Every fragment of hope from a new Scotland Yard lead comes with regret: if only six years ago Portuguese police had done their job. These new e-fit figures seen loitering in stairwells or carrying a sleeping child towards the sea are so shadowy and long-scattered that it is like searching for people who appeared in a dream. And the McCanns know that the price of another public appeal is refuelling the anger of those who hate them. No tabloid newspaper, however bile-spewing or intrusive, has ever published such vile, defamatory and cruel words as those written about the McCanns by ordinary British citizens. Even the Daily Express, house journal of the Madeleine trolls, did not photoshop her parents’ heads on to the Moors murderers Myra Hindley and Ian Brady as someone did on Twitter this week. I regularly receive updates from strange organisations — if that is the right term for anonymous e-mail accounts writing mainly in block capitals — purporting to expose the “truth” about the McCanns’ lies. Online is a bizarre netherworld of people who, against all evidence, refuse to believe Madeleine was not killed by her parents. Well, they seem “cold”, a bit creepy, look at them loving being on TV. Madder than Diana conspiracists, more visceral than 9/11 deniers, the McCann trolls exude the ancient gut fury of lynchings and witch trials. For some, Madeleine allows them to vent class rage: “a poor mum who left her babies to go down the boozer wouldn’t get any sympathy”. For others, particularly mothers, the case permits a heady, puffed-up righteousness: “I’d never neglect my kids like that.” Even if Madeleine was found alive, some would insist she was an imposter, that DNA tests were further lies. McCann trolls wouldn’t let mere truth spoil the thrill of a good hate.
Incidentally Faith, is there any chance you could email your mate Nigel Moore and let him know he continues to peddle outright falsehoods and lies on his site?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 11, 2013, 03:11:51 PM
I don't know who Janice Turner is, but I presume she is another of these people who 'know' exactly what happened.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 11, 2013, 03:16:36 PM
If this has already been posted, I'm naturally delighted, because this article should be repeated as often as possible:
From today's Times:
For [ censored word ]s of the poor McCanns it’s open season Janice Turner
Print Share via Facebook Twitter Google+ Published at 12:01AM, October 17 2013 Notebook What a hard week for Kate and Gerry McCann. Every fragment of hope from a new Scotland Yard lead comes with regret: if only six years ago Portuguese police had done their job. These new e-fit figures seen loitering in stairwells or carrying a sleeping child towards the sea are so shadowy and long-scattered that it is like searching for people who appeared in a dream. And the McCanns know that the price of another public appeal is refuelling the anger of those who hate them. No tabloid newspaper, however bile-spewing or intrusive, has ever published such vile, defamatory and cruel words as those written about the McCanns by ordinary British citizens. Even the Daily Express, house journal of the Madeleine trolls, did not photoshop her parents’ heads on to the Moors murderers Myra Hindley and Ian Brady as someone did on Twitter this week. I regularly receive updates from strange organisations — if that is the right term for anonymous e-mail accounts writing mainly in block capitals — purporting to expose the “truth” about the McCanns’ lies. Online is a bizarre netherworld of people who, against all evidence, refuse to believe Madeleine was not killed by her parents. Well, they seem “cold”, a bit creepy, look at them loving being on TV. Madder than Diana conspiracists, more visceral than 9/11 deniers, the McCann trolls exude the ancient gut fury of lynchings and witch trials. For some, Madeleine allows them to vent class rage: “a poor mum who left her babies to go down the boozer wouldn’t get any sympathy”. For others, particularly mothers, the case permits a heady, puffed-up righteousness: “I’d never neglect my kids like that.” Even if Madeleine was found alive, some would insist she was an imposter, that DNA tests were further lies. McCann trolls wouldn’t let mere truth spoil the thrill of a good hate.
Incidentally Faith, is there any chance you could email your mate Nigel Moore and let him know he continues to peddle outright falsehoods and lies on his site?
Lord please save us from another opinion piece !!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: ferryman on November 11, 2013, 03:25:50 PM
Lord please save us from another opinion piece !!
Don't worry, there's no hint of Blacksmith in sight (for the time being) ...
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Aiofe on November 11, 2013, 04:57:53 PM
There was no organisation, they run in all directions, thinking that she couldn't be far away. The Oldfields apparently went straight to their flat and the McCanns to theirs. You might be right about the flowerbed, but no bag. None of them says they went on this dark alley path. After turning right between the two buildings and on reaching the G5 carpark, there are little steps on the left that lead to the upper G4 carpark. This carpark entry/exit leaves you almost at the corner of Primeiro de Maio/Agostinho da Silva.
What a crime- a terrible thing happens and people are not organised to your ex post facto expectations. Have you not heard of panic reactions.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Aiofe on November 11, 2013, 05:00:53 PM
If this has already been posted, I'm naturally delighted, because this article should be repeated as often as possible:
From today's Times:
For [ censored word ]s of the poor McCanns it’s open season Janice Turner
Print Share via Facebook Twitter Google+ Published at 12:01AM, October 17 2013 Notebook What a hard week for Kate and Gerry McCann. Every fragment of hope from a new Scotland Yard lead comes with regret: if only six years ago Portuguese police had done their job. These new e-fit figures seen loitering in stairwells or carrying a sleeping child towards the sea are so shadowy and long-scattered that it is like searching for people who appeared in a dream. And the McCanns know that the price of another public appeal is refuelling the anger of those who hate them. No tabloid newspaper, however bile-spewing or intrusive, has ever published such vile, defamatory and cruel words as those written about the McCanns by ordinary British citizens. Even the Daily Express, house journal of the Madeleine trolls, did not photoshop her parents’ heads on to the Moors murderers Myra Hindley and Ian Brady as someone did on Twitter this week. I regularly receive updates from strange organisations — if that is the right term for anonymous e-mail accounts writing mainly in block capitals — purporting to expose the “truth” about the McCanns’ lies. Online is a bizarre netherworld of people who, against all evidence, refuse to believe Madeleine was not killed by her parents. Well, they seem “cold”, a bit creepy, look at them loving being on TV. Madder than Diana conspiracists, more visceral than 9/11 deniers, the McCann trolls exude the ancient gut fury of lynchings and witch trials. For some, Madeleine allows them to vent class rage: “a poor mum who left her babies to go down the boozer wouldn’t get any sympathy”. For others, particularly mothers, the case permits a heady, puffed-up righteousness: “I’d never neglect my kids like that.” Even if Madeleine was found alive, some would insist she was an imposter, that DNA tests were further lies. McCann trolls wouldn’t let mere truth spoil the thrill of a good hate.
Incidentally Faith, is there any chance you could email your mate Nigel Moore and let him know he continues to peddle outright falsehoods and lies on his site?
I can't say how much I agree with this characterisation of the Ant- McCann Cult.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 05:21:02 PM
Provide the statement that Gerry was searching the tapas bar area in those first 5 minutes? David Payne did and told Dianne Webster to go and she went straight to the apartment and found Kate alone with the twins.
As she stayed there for about 10 minutes before going to pick up left things at the restaurant, without seeing Mr McCann, we can imagine he had gone to the creche above the main reception to see if by chance Madeleine wasn't there, as told in "Madeleine".
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
Is that what he said. Any alibi?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 05:35:28 PM
Perhaps the body was meant to be found. If it was Gerry seen by the Smiths he may have wanted the body to be found but for it to be far enough from their apartment so it didn't implicate them. Any signs of trauma/sedation could then be blamed on the abductor.
The unrecoverable body was the only chance of success the abduction from bed had to be the one and only narrative.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 05:37:26 PM
It's said in Madeleine, no time indicated. He was alone, nobody saw him at the creche nor at the main reception.
I'm shocked! He didn't mention the creche in his witness statement either on 4 May.
"Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, while at the same time they contacted the authorities, that would later appear."
Gerry went to the reception later with John Hill. Hill first knew about the disappearance in a phone call at 10.28pm.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 06:13:16 PM
I'm shocked! He didn't mention the creche in his witness statement either on 4 May.
"Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, while at the same time they contacted the authorities, that would later appear."
Gerry went to the reception later with John Hill. Hill first knew about the disappearance in a phone call at 10.28pm.
Yes, John Hill went immediately to the Tapas resort and saw a lot of people searching. He went then to the main reception to see if the police had been called and must have been the authority the receptionist needed to make a call (21h42). Then John Hill says he went to the 5A and saw both parents. He doesn't say he went back to the main reception with Mr McCann, but that he orientated the searches in situ.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 06:14:51 PM
I'm shocked! He didn't mention the creche in his witness statement either on 4 May.
He didn't mention it either on the 10th of May or on the 7th of September.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 06:24:46 PM
This is a change that happened in his 10 May statement:
"He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment. Then he closed the shutters, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside. They continued with searches outside, around the various apartment blocks."
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 06:34:28 PM
Yes, John Hill went immediately to the Tapas resort and saw a lot of people searching. He went then to the main reception to see if the police had been called and must have been the authority the receptionist needed to make a call (21h42). Then John Hill says he went to the 5A and saw both parents. He doesn't say he went back to the main reception with Mr McCann, but that he orientated the searches in situ.
Yes there's a discrepancy on the point. Maybe John Hill went back to the reception again with Gerry?
"The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted, and fifteen minutes later went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken." (John Hill)
That's 10.45pm estimate time when John Hill arrived at the McCann's apartment.
"That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again." (Helder Jorge Samaio Luis - Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club)
If they went back to the reception (Hill & Gerry) this would have been after 10.45pm because the police hadn't arrived yet. I think they arrived at around 11pm.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 06:41:04 PM
This is a change that happened in his 10 May statement:
"He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment. Then he closed the shutters, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside. They continued with searches outside, around the various apartment blocks."
"They" has no antecedent here, it is indefinite, like in "they've taken her".
The main difference between this statement and the 4th one is that on the 10th everything is/seems closed when Mrs McCann enters the flat vs everything (door, shutters, window, curtains) is open when she enters.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 06:52:47 PM
Yes there's a discrepancy on the point. Maybe John Hill went back to the reception again with Gerry?
"The deponent went to the main reception to see if the authorities had been alerted, and fifteen minutes later went to the apartment being used by the McCanns, where he saw that both members of the couple were in a panic and were shouting that the child had been taken." (John Hill)
That's 10.45pm estimate time when John Hill arrived at the McCann's apartment.
"That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again." (Helder Jorge Samaio Luis - Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club)
If they went back to the reception (Hill & Gerry) this would have been after 10.45pm because the police haven't arrived yet. I think they arrived around 11pm.
John Hill might have driven Mr McCann to the main reception and asked to call the police again (2nd call at 21h52?), then left in direction of the resort and the searches.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 06:56:05 PM
That should be 22:52?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 07:19:37 PM
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 11, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
Thanks. We can start to make an apartment timeline now.
10pm Dianne Webster goes to the apartment - Kate alone with twins
10.10pm Fiona arrives at the apartment (Dianne left to relieve her) - Kate alone with twins.
10.20pm Emma Wright arrives at the apartment - only Kate and Fiona present.
10.45pm John Hill arrives at the apartment - Gerry is now present.
So between 10.25 and 10.45 the men are starting to return to the apartment from their various searches.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 10:06:07 AM
+- 10:10 : Dianne is asked to go back to the restaurant and pick up objects that were left there. +- 10:15 : Dianne is back in 5A and this time Gerald is there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 12, 2013, 05:16:51 PM
That can't be right as Emma Wright didn't arrive until 10.20pm and only Kate and Fiona were there. If Fiona was there then Dianne wasn't because she was looking after the children in Payne's apartment.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 12, 2013, 05:25:56 PM
Who was looking after Fiona's children while Dianne was going back to the table? Was Kate left alone during this period as the other 2 women would also be attending to their own children ?
Just curious, you understand.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 05:33:41 PM
In turn, as relates to her, the witness says she stayed at the restaurant for about five minutes, then, noting that the remaining members of the group had not returned, she followed in the direction of the apartment McCANN. - In that apartment she found that KATE was completely in panic, in "state of shock ". - Because she was asked, she states that she entered the apartment by the sliding glass door of the patio at the back, which gives access to the lounge. Then she went to the children's bedroom, noting that there she found KATE and the twin siblings of MADELEINE - She added that she did not remember too much detail about the scenario that she found in that bedroom, other that what she said above. However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed. (...) - She adds that that night, and after the occurrence of the facts under investigation, have been in the apartment on two separate occasions. At the time described above she remained about 10 minutes in the apartment. After this time she returned to the restaurant to get her handbag as well as the camera of the couple McCANN and "baby monitor" of her daughter, and was soon back again in the apartment. - The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY), and FIONA, not remembering any other people that were there.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 12, 2013, 05:34:31 PM
Who was looking after Fiona's children while Dianne was going back to the table? Was Kate left alone during this period as the other 2 women would also be attending to their own children ?
Just curious, you understand.
David Payne said Dianne could leave the tapas bar in the first few minutes of the searches.
Dianne goes to the apartment and finds Kate alone with twins. She stays there for a bit checking the windows and shutters and did a quick search and then probably went to retrieve her belongings from the tapas bar.
Dianne then goes to relieve Fiona who's looking after her children. Fiona goes to the apartment where she finds Kate alone with the twins at around 10.10pm.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 12, 2013, 05:36:02 PM
4078 “Yeah. And then it says what did you do next? Well you went back to your apartment to look after your granddaughters and at some point you had a little look around but couldn’t remember whether that was…”
Reply “That would have been before I went back to the apartment. I can, I can, I can only assume that I went back to the apartment to let Fiona, to release Fiona so she could come and be there for Kate.”
4078 “And then you went back to the Tapas bar to collect the belongings that had been left.”
Reply “Yeah.”
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 12, 2013, 05:40:16 PM
Thanks, question answered .
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 13, 2013, 02:12:19 AM
If only we could show the till printout to the witnesses maybe they would say which sales (from 21.39 onwards) are relevant to timing the sighting.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 11:16:52 AM
If only we could show the till printout to the witnesses maybe they would say which sales (from 21.39 onwards) are relevant to timing the sighting.
I've imagined Aoife looking at the photos of beige pants with buttons that Jeanne darc posted, because she could provide a solid clue. But, no, I do strongly hope that Aoife will never see those photos.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 13, 2013, 01:10:34 PM
"On the evening I was wearing brown jeans/cord style trousers, a pale blue stripe top, and Jane had taken my jumper which was blue. The nights were quite chilly which is why Jane had my jumper I am quite used to the cold." (Russell O'Brien)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 04:15:26 PM
"On the evening I was wearing brown jeans/cord style trousers, a pale blue stripe top, and Jane had taken my jumper which was blue. The nights were quite chilly which is why Jane had my jumper I am quite used to the cold." (Russell O'Brien)
It sounds Mr O'Brien isn't Smithman. But the jumper was purple, not blue.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 13, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
I am still not sure that it wasn't the same man. Scotland Yard did not state categorically that it was not the same man. And as far as I can see the man that Jane Tanner saw was coming from entirely the wrong direction from the night creche.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 13, 2013, 05:04:03 PM
I am still not sure that it wasn't the same man. Scotland Yard did not state categorically that it was not the same man. And as far as I can see the man that Jane Tanner saw was coming from entirely the wrong direction from the night creche.
Apparently so, but SY seem quite happy with that.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 05:12:52 PM
if the sketches/efits are anything to go by, no it cant have been the same man.....see Tanners chin length glossy black bob man and crimewatch efits.... if anyone can put them side by side.....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 13, 2013, 05:16:49 PM
I am still not sure that it wasn't the same man. Scotland Yard did not state categorically that it was not the same man. And as far as I can see the man that Jane Tanner saw was coming from entirely the wrong direction from the night creche.
SY have said that they've identified Tannerman but not Smithman, I'm sure they'd have asked Tannerman if he was still wandering around an hour later.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 13, 2013, 07:42:51 PM
SY have said that they've identified Tannerman but not Smithman, I'm sure they'd have asked Tannerman if he was still wandering around an hour later.
Excellent point Cariad
Scotland Yard have identified, questioned, and eliminated the innocent father Jane Tanner saw that night ... they know it wasn't him the Smith family saw almost an hour later
... and still the man Jane Tanner saw is displayed on the McCann official website, asking people to identify him
Someone mentioned a 'wild goose chase' earlier
... I concur
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 10:03:08 PM
A wild goose chase... Certainly, from the very beginning. And we're running, aren't we ? But I'm not convinced by Innocentman. Oh, he certainly exists and is likely a sentimental person. But I can't figure out that man carrying on his arms a little child on such a long route from the creche. I bet he never crossed Francisco GM and I bet the time he was around G5 wasn't 9:15 pm... And I'm afraid this is exactly why RW invented the unbelievable demonstration of innocence through a rotten orange pyjama !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 10:12:20 PM
A wild goose chase... Certainly, from the very beginning. And we're running, aren't we ? But I'm not convinced by Innocentman. Oh, he certainly exists and is likely a sentimental person. But I can't figure out that man carrying on his arms a little child on such a long route from the creche. I bet he never crossed Francisco GM and I bet the time he was around G5 wasn't 9:15 pm... And I'm afraid this is exactly why RW invented the unbelievable demonstration of innocence through a rotten orange pyjama !
what if Tanner was wrong about the direction he was going?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 10:25:21 PM
Some people never know where are right and left, but do some mentally memorize a movement in the opposite way ?
No idea, just trying to make sense of SY saying Tannerman going home from creche at the time....which does not make any sense whatsoever if he was crossing left to right when Tanner saw him....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 10:39:51 PM
No idea, just trying to make sense of SY saying Tannerman going home from creche at the time....which dies nit make any sense whatsoever if he was crossing left to right when Tanner saw him....
It makes no sense at all actually and this is why RW took care of saying they were almost sure, but not sure.. Imo, this decision to innocent Tannerman was partly a wishful thinking and partly untying a anti-productive knot that hampered any progress.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 10:45:41 PM
It makes no sense at all actually and this is why RW took care of saying they were almost sure, but not sure.. Imo, this decision to innocent Tannerman was partly a wishful thinking and partly untying a anti-productive knot that hampered any progress.
Makes you think Redwood believed Oakley International and their report that the Tannerman sighting was given too attention when the Smithman sighting was more credible and finding out the efits were suppressed!!! >@@(*&)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 13, 2013, 10:53:27 PM
Makes you think Redwood believed Oakley International and their report that the Tannerman sighting was given too attention when the Smithman sighting was more credible and finding out the efits were suppressed!!! >@@(*&)
I think so, the insistance on Tannerman, the release of faceless man much too late to have any impact, Ms Tanner being asked to re-enact the scene...I would be surprise that RW didn't notice. But I believe he has orders and I don't think he's the rebel kind !
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 11:05:20 PM
I think so, the insistance on Tannerman, the release of faceless man much too late to have any impact, Ms Tanner being asked to re-enact the scene...I would be surprise that RW didn't notice. But I believe he has orders and I don't think he's the rebel kind !
I dont know...what is a rebel policeman? he is hard to read for sure...I agree he is not acting independently though......lets see
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 12:04:05 AM
How could JT pass Gerry and Jez without being seen >@@(*&)
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 12:14:20 AM
Did Tannerman take the kid from the Kids Club No. 2 on this map? It would explain the direction in which Jane saw him walking? (straight up the road from the club and turn right and across where JT saw him)
Did Tannerman take the kid from the Kids Club No. 2 on this map? It would explain the direction in which Jane saw him walking? (straight up the road from the club and turn right and across where JT saw him)
The child was too old to have been at that club. I did read that he originated from the one above main reception (locations 4/5 on your plan).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 01:11:45 AM
The child was too old to have been at that club. I did read that he originated from the one above main reception (locations 4/5 on your plan).
Thanks so I wonder why Tannerman was going that way? SY would have covered that I presume. I can't work out how JT passed without being seen. Is there another exit from the tapas bar? Back to the files 8(0(*
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 14, 2013, 01:21:24 AM
Thanks so I wonder why Tannerman was going that way? SY would have covered that I presume. I can't work out how JT passed without being seen. Is there another exit from the tapas bar? Back to the files 8(0(*
Tannerman was an abductor, Pathfinder, and was logically coming from 5A. We know nothing of Innocentman except for his child's rotten orange pyjama, the place he was walking from and his curly hair.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 01:31:21 AM
Are you saying Tannerman and Innocentman are not the same person? Tannerman looks nothing like Smithman either.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 14, 2013, 11:29:35 AM
What Eddie smelt immediately when the door was open was stronger months back (unless there was a clandestine death in the flat after Madeleine disappeared) and, since no remains were found in the flat, likely followed them where they went.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 02:33:54 PM
There's only one suitcase in that wardrobe. Did they board that plane on 28 April with two luggage tags?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 14, 2013, 02:37:38 PM
It makes no sense at all actually and this is why RW took care of saying they were almost sure, but not sure.. Imo, this decision to innocent Tannerman was partly a wishful thinking and partly untying a anti-productive knot that hampered any progress.
How do we know this is the reason Redwood says they're not 100% sure that Tannerman is being ruled out, Anne? They have not made their reasoning open to the public.
It would however be very interesting to know exactly on what grounds SY feel (almost) able to rule him out. Knowing their reasons would clear up most of the questions we have here.
SY are of course under no obligation to reveal their reasoning, but I wonder if it is reasonable to imagine that at some point they may choose to do so. Or it might come out some other way.
In the Barry George case, for example, there was a great deal of information in the public domain as to the reasons why certain things were being ruled in and ruled out.
Perhaps we can hope for this here.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 02:41:15 PM
2 tags with WW5531 McCann/Gerald 28 Apr 07. One bag in wardrobe.
what if Tanner was wrong about the direction he was going?
Jane's description - in what it contained and did not contain - is consistent with someone walking in the direction she reports. She is on the left hand side of the street, coming from the reception, and her man is walking across the road from left to right. His back is towards her for most of the time he is in her sight, and this is reflected in her physical description of him, which concentrates on his long hair, and leaves out the face, despite the fact that objectively the face would have been illuminated by the street lamp he was walking towards.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 14, 2013, 02:48:46 PM
How do we know this is the reason Redwood says they're not 100% sure that Tannerman is being ruled out, Anne? They have not made their reasoning open to the public.
It would however be very interesting to know exactly on what grounds SY feel (almost) able to rule him out. Knowing their reasons would clear up most of the questions we have here.
SY are of course under no obligation to reveal their reasoning, but I wonder if it is reasonable to imagine that at some point they may choose to do so. Or it might come out some other way.
In the Barry George case, for example, there was a great deal of information in the public domain as to the reasons why certain things were being ruled in and ruled out.
Perhaps we can hope for this here.
That's why I said "imo", SH. SY is under no obligation, if it's the interest of the investigation, but has not the right to fool the public. Showing a rotten orange pyjama saying it was very similar to Tannerman child's one is taking the public for idiots. I suppose that, before this, I would have believed their saying they were almost sure, thinking the "almost" was leaving a margin for error, but now I'm really perplex.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 14, 2013, 04:19:31 PM
That's why I said "imo", SH. SY is under no obligation, if it's the interest of the investigation, but has not the right to fool the public. Showing a rotten orange pyjama saying it was very similar to Tannerman child's one is taking the public for idiots. I suppose that, before this, I would have believed their saying they were almost sure, thinking the "almost" was leaving a margin for error, but now I'm really perplex.
SY MUST have taken into consideration the fact that 'Tannerman' was walking in the 'wrong' direction at this point - so there must be a plausible explanation for why he was doing that.
We are simply lacking information.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: sadie on November 14, 2013, 04:43:42 PM
That's why I said "imo", SH. SY is under no obligation, if it's the interest of the investigation, but has not the right to fool the public. Showing a rotten orange pyjama saying it was very similar to Tannerman child's one is taking the public for idiots. I suppose that, before this, I would have believed their saying they were almost sure, thinking the "almost" was leaving a margin for error, but now I'm really perplex.
Now I dont know the answer to this so I am thinking aloud
The lamps were I believe sodium lamps, which I think give out an orange light IIRC.
THe pyjamas were orange.
What happens to the perceived colour when orange light hits orange fabric. Does the orange fabric look off white in sodium light ... or does it go deeper orange?
Anyone know?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 14, 2013, 04:55:48 PM
SY MUST have taken into consideration the fact that 'Tannerman' was walking in the 'wrong' direction at this point - so there must be a plausible explanation for why he was doing that.
We are simply lacking information.
DCI RW said too much or not enough and discredited SY with a ridiculous comparison.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: jassi on November 14, 2013, 05:15:03 PM
Now I dont know the answer to this so I am thinking aloud
The lamps were I believe sodium lamps, which I think give out an orange light IIRC.
THe pyjamas were orange.
What happens to the perceived colour when orange light hits orange fabric. Does the orange fabric look off white in sodium light ... or does it go deeper orange?
Anyone know?
Difficult to know without testing. All genuine colours other than orange will appear as shades of grey. A genuinely orange dye will still appear orange, but if the dye is made from a combination of colours, then it would appear as shades of grey. The same would be so for garment that was dyed white.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 14, 2013, 10:18:46 PM
I think Madeleine left the apartment at either around 8.30pm or just after 9pm (a few minutes after the last members of the group/tapas 9 had arrived at the tapas bar).
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 15, 2013, 12:40:38 AM
That's why I said "imo", SH. SY is under no obligation, if it's the interest of the investigation, but has not the right to fool the public. Showing a rotten orange pyjama saying it was very similar to Tannerman child's one is taking the public for idiots. I suppose that, before this, I would have believed their saying they were almost sure, thinking the "almost" was leaving any margin for error, but now I'm really perplex.
Is it?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 15, 2013, 02:14:17 AM
There are 3 items in that crimewatch photo, all relevant. I think the very light pink blanket was covering the pyjama top (but not covering the lower legs) when JT saw this child.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 10:21:38 AM
There are 3 items in that crimewatch photo, all relevant. I think the very light pink blanket was covering the pyjama top (but not covering the lower legs) when JT saw this child.
She said she only saw the legs, white with perhaps little printed flowers and, she was sure, a frill, matching the description stated by Mr and Mrs McCann on the 4th of May. Curiously, on the 10th, Mr McCann didn't remember which type of pyjama Madeleine had on, though he saw her on the cover (Mrs McCann said she was "under").
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 15, 2013, 10:37:14 AM
How could that be when the bed didn't even appear to have been slept in??
Parents go on holiday abroad. Lose sense of reality. Put children to bed alone. Leave apartment door unlocked. Leave apartment for a night out. One child wakes and wanders. Child is lifted by a stranger and abducted. Parent returns to find child gone. Parents overwhelming sense of guilt. Concoct intruder via window story. Rest is history.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 11:05:31 AM
How could that be when the bed didn't even appear to have been slept in??
Parents go on holiday abroad. Lose sense of reality. Put children to bed alone. Leave apartment door unlocked. Leave apartment for a night out. One child wakes and wanders. Child is lifted by a stranger and abducted. Parent returns to find child gone. Parents overwhelming sense of guilt. Concoct intruder via window story. Rest is history.
The bed doesn't look slept in because either she was in another bed (her parents' one) or she already didn't need a bed. If they had concocted an intrusion via window to conceal a wandering off, would they have mentioned to the police the crying episode, which was first told to the group at dinner and presented as a reason why they left the door-window open ? Or would they have kept quiet, hoping none of the group would remember it (Mrs Payne mentioned it only in her rog interview) ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 15, 2013, 11:46:08 AM
The bed doesn't look slept in because either she was in another bed (her parents' one) or she already didn't need a bed. If they had concocted an intrusion via window to conceal a wandering off, would they have mentioned to the police the crying episode, which was first told to the group at dinner and presented as a reason why they left the door-window open ? Or would they have kept quiet, hoping none of the group would remember it (Mrs Payne mentioned it only in her rog interview) ?
She had to since she had already confided in another member of the tapas group. To not have mentioned it would have caused even more suspicion.
Back on topic however, I still believe that both sightings of a man carrying a child were pure coincidence. Whoever lifted Maddie put her in a motor vehicle and cleared off pronto.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
She had to since she had already confided in another member of the tapas group. To not have mentioned it would have caused even more suspicion.
Back on topic however, I still believe that both sightings of a man carrying a child were pure coincidence. Whoever lifted Maddie put her in a motor vehicle and cleared off pronto.
Both Tannerman and Smithman were Innocentmen then ?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 12:03:28 PM
She had to since she had already confided in another member of the tapas group. To not have mentioned it would have caused even more suspicion.
Back on topic however, I still believe that both sightings of a man carrying a child were pure coincidence. Whoever lifted Maddie put her in a motor vehicle and cleared off pronto.
She had to because there was a witness that had given a statement to the police, and so they arranged for a leak to be released to a spanish paper, in order to accuse the PJ of leaking, accompanied by a series of interviews where Mrs McCann, heroically confessed to a pretense conversation with little Madeleine.
_________________
Jane Tanner & Smith's sighting of a man: I don't know if any of them saw anyone. It's natural that they did because in May there's already plenty of people in Praia da Luz apart from tourists and ex-pats that live there all year.
But it doesn't make sense that if Tanner saw someone going in the direction she appointed, that same person showed up, more than half an hour later, in a totally different direction. They are either 2 different persons or one or both lied about the sightings.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 12:07:00 PM
I wonder if Jane used the lanes from the back to the front of the apartment. I can't see how she walked past Gerry and Jez without being noticed. Jez said he was talking to Gerry just above the lane so if Jane went that way she wouldn't have actually went passed them at all. She could've seen Tannerman walking across the road (looking in her north direction) but from a longer distance away.
The other explanation would be that she just passed the apartment when Gerry came out of the back and spotted Jez. She heard voices further behind her and turned around and saw them and turned back and then spotted Tannerman crossing the road. This explanation is less realistic as it would require perfect timing.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 12:09:24 PM
For me there is something too deviant about the efforts the McCann made all the time to be recognized as negligent parents.
Not only did Kate McCann apparently disclosed the little talk Madeleine had with her about being left alone with her siblings, but also, Mr. McCann made sure that he divulged to several guests at the Ocean Club how they left the kids alone.
It makes it laughable their apparent "horror" because their arrangements for dinner were written in a book at the reception desk....
They were the first to announce it! What could the purpose be?!!!!!!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 12:12:18 PM
I wonder if Jane used the lanes from the back to the front of the apartment. I can't see how she walked past Gerry and Jez without being noticed. Jez said he was talking to Gerry just above the lane so if Jane went that way she wouldn't have actually went passed them at all. She could've seen Tannerman walking across the road (looking in her north direction) but from a longer distance away.
The other explanation would be that she just passed the apartment when Gerry came out of the back and spotted Jez. She heard voices further behind her and turned around and saw them and turned back and then spotted Tannerman crossing the road. This explanation is less realistic as it would require perfect timing.
At first that was the explanation the police found for their depositions. But as they all changed the testimonies as time went on, it became impossible to take their word for anything - that was the reason why a reconstitution was imperative in order to understand what really happened.
But obviously that was not the McCann's interest.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 12:19:26 PM
It makes it laughable their apparent "horror" because their arrangements for dinner were written in a book at the reception desk....
They were the first to announce it! What could the purpose be?!!!!!!
They weren't written in fact, see the register book in the files ! This is a myth spread by Mrs McCann. Telling the crying episode as a justification for the open door-window indicates imo that whatever happened to Madeleine happened before dinner.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 12:19:50 PM
It's possible Madeleine did go through a window but the window in the parents bedroom on to the veranda where Eddie found the scent then down the back steps to the flower bed. It does connect wardrobe to out through window. The use of the front door key to enter the apartment gives us the time when Madeleine left the apartment. I was at first puzzled by, "Why would you enter from the front?" but it all makes perfect sense now.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 12:23:24 PM
The use of the front door key to enter the apartment gives us the time when Madeleine left the apartment. I was at first puzzled by this but it all makes perfect sense now.
?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 12:26:52 PM
You would only enter from the front of the apartment if that was your nearest entry from where you were coming from.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 12:29:09 PM
But as they all changed the testimonies as time went on, it became impossible to take their word for anything - that was the reason why a reconstitution was imperative in order to understand what really happened.
Yes, this is what the public ignores. It's not only the change between entering North with a key into entering South open, there are many weird discrepancies and lapses of memory in their depositions. This is expected from the group, not from the parents.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 12:31:36 PM
You would only enter from the front of the apartment if that was your nearest entry from where you were coming from.
Not necessarily. Entering through their door-window would have been shorter for the Oldfield. They didn't do it because they couldn't lock it from the outside. Simple.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 12:33:45 PM
I'm talking about 5A that was unlocked. There was no need to use the front entrance but it was used and I've explained the reason why. This gives us the time Madeleine left the apartment IMO. Keep close to the dogs and find those big discrepancies and things become clearer.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 12:41:04 PM
I'm talking about 5A that was unlocked. There was no need to use the front entrance but it was used and I've explained the reason why.
Of course there was a need to use the front entrance, the only door that could be locked from the outside. Does anyone believe that a person would leave their 3 children in an unlocked apartment? ...not to mention their belongings, which apparently were not disturbed.
If we read the first deposition Mr. McCann made to the police, he stated to have entered the apartment by the front door using his key, as any normal person would do. Only later did they come out with the veranda doors opened - as if we believed that a scrooge like Gerald McCann would leave his belongings unprotected!
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 12:53:09 PM
"They left through the balcony door, which they left closed but not locked." (KM)
The patio door was unlocked when they left for the tapas bar. No one needed to come through the front door unless there was a reason for doing so.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 15, 2013, 01:01:26 PM
Mr McCann said he (at 9) and his wife (at 10) entered through the door, i.e one you can lock from the outside and from the inside, with his/her key (no way to enter without a key, even it the door isn't locked). Some hours after Mrs McCann said she entered through the door-window, i.e one you can lock only from the inside, contradicting Mr McCann. But Mr McCann had been absurd in his statement : he said he entered through the door with his key, as well as his wife, and later said that Mr Oldfield entered thought the door-window because it was left open... Mrs McCann can very well have tried to repair the strange statement of her husband. There's no evidence they left thought the door-window, we only have her/their word for it.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 01:08:49 PM
"They left through the balcony door, which they left closed but not locked." (KM)
The patio door was unlocked when they left for the tapas bar. No one needed to come through the front door unless there was a reason for doing so.
I don't believe they did that. It's unreasonable and it only came out after the papers started publishing that the windows couldn't have been "jemmied" as the McCann family first started spreading to the journos.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 01:12:20 PM
Mr McCann said he (at 9) and his wife (at 10) entered through the door, i.e one you can lock from the outside and from the inside, with his/her key (no way to enter without a key, even it the door isn't locked). Some hours after Mrs McCann said she entered through the door-window, i.e one you can lock only from the inside, contradicting Mr McCann. But Mr McCann had been absurd in his statement : he said he entered through the door with his key, as well as his wife, and later said that Mr Oldfield entered thought the door-window because it was left open... Mrs McCann can very well have tried to repair the strange statement of her husband. There's no evidence they left thought the door-window, we only have her/their word for it.
That patio door was unlocked when they both left for the tapas bar. If Gerry locked the front door from the outside it doesn't matter. What matters here is that the patio doors were unlocked when they left for the tapas bar. I'll try to explain:
Hypothesis: Just after all the group had arrived at the tapas (everyone was accounted for) Smithman went to the apartment going in the back way and carrying Madeline out to the north and then west direction. About 5 minutes later Gerry used the key to gain access to enter the apartment from the front, did what he had to do and then left via the back unlocked patio door and bumped into Jez outside. 9.10pm Jane left the tapas bar when she saw them both talking.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 01:15:21 PM
That patio door was unlocked when they both left for the tapas bar. If Gerry locked the front door from the outside it doesn't matter. What matters here is that the patio doors were unlocked when they left for the tapas bar. I'll try to explain:
Hypothesis: Just after all the group had arrived at the tapas (everyone was accounted for) Smithman went to the apartment going in the back way and carrying Madeline out to the north and then west direction. About 5 minutes later Gerry used the key to gain access to enter the apartment from the front, maybe went to the bathroom and then left via the back unlocked patio door and bumped into Jez outside.
Too far fetched! So you are frantic to go pee and you use the front door with a key instead of the half way unlocked slide doors?????
What proof do we have that the patio doors were left unlocked?
If they were, why was it not mentioned in their first statements? and instead they affirmed to have used the front door that requires a key to be opened?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 01:18:50 PM
The patio door had to be unlocked. How an abductor could gain access to the apartment being the big reason.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Luz on November 15, 2013, 01:28:54 PM
I'm sorry. I didn't know that you were supposed to force the circumstances to fit the theory....
So, as there had to be an abductor, it was necessary that the back doors were opened?! And what happens if the doors were shut? There was no abductor?!
This is what I call inverted logic
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 03:26:47 PM
Smithman is one of the Tapas 9 (he is not an abductor). Look at the files and see who was the only one missing from the tapas bar at the time in question. I'm sure you can work it out and picture the quick sequence of events that took place and discover the reason why the key to the front entrance of 5A was used i.e. at that particular point in time it was the nearest access side for Smithman to enter the apartment after coming back from hiding Madeleine. Smithman later retrieved a hidden Madeleine in the first searches where he was seen by the Smith family.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pegasus on November 15, 2013, 08:24:43 PM
That looks like a door, connecting a bedroom to the balcony, see PJ photos
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 08:58:50 PM
Thanks I would like to see veranda images. Eddie alerted to the veranda/balcony outside parents bedroom so I believe Madeleine came out of the apartment that way.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 15, 2013, 11:02:05 PM
In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant.
Subsequently, as previously determined, there proceeded the collection of various hairs from the ground of the pathway in the garden area next to the window of the couple's bedroom, they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 25.
After the above there proceeded the collection of several branches of the climbing plant in the garden they having been encased in a paper package referenced as trace evidence number 21 and of possible fibres on a wall of the apartment garden, next to the climbing plant, using six Crystal-Tabs appropriate for this they having been referenced as trace evidence number 26.
Too far fetched! So you are frantic to go pee and you use the front door with a key instead of the half way unlocked slide doors?????
What proof do we have that the patio doors were left unlocked?
If they were, why was it not mentioned in their first statements? and instead they affirmed to have used the front door that requires a key to be opened?
I would be more worried that a young fit healthy man needs to PEE after only leaving the house for 30 minutes....
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 16, 2013, 02:41:59 PM
Yes it's very unlikely and even going to the toilet doesn't cover the 10 minutes being away from the tapas bar. Jez said they talked for about 3 minutes. So something else was going on in those other spare minutes. It connects.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 16, 2013, 03:22:33 PM
It seems certain that Madeleine was abducted between 9.15 and 9.45. The precise time does not seem all that important to me. Neither does it seem important as to whether or not the abductor was seen carrying a child. Neither of these things make any difference to the end result as no one knows where he went or what he did with Madeleine. So all of this endless talk of sightings and times is ultimately irrelevant.
I am not even remotely interested in how long it took Gerry to have a pee, or if Jane Tanner neglected to say "Hi" to whoever in passing, or if she saw the abductor. Ditto The Smiths. None of these things tell us anything.
For all we know the abductor could have been up and away without a soul setting eyes upon him.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 16, 2013, 03:46:25 PM
It seems certain that Madeleine was abducted between 9.15 and 9.45. The precise time does not seem all that important to me. Neither does it seem important as to whether or not the abductor was seen carrying a child. Neither of these things make any difference to the end result as no one knows where he went or what he did with Madeleine. So all of this endless talk of sightings and times is ultimately irrelevant.
I am not even remotely interested in how long it took Gerry to have a pee, or if Jane Tanner neglected to say "Hi" to whoever in passing, or if she saw the abductor. Ditto The Smiths. None of these things tell us anything.
For all we know the abductor could have been up and away without a soul setting eyes upon him.
"It seems certain that Madeleine was abducted"
Really?
"no one knows where he went or what he did"
So this 'abductor' was definitely a man then?
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Apostate on November 16, 2013, 03:59:35 PM
Without a thorough examination of the events between 2030 and 2200 there's precious little chance of solving this.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 16, 2013, 04:14:56 PM
Well I don't know, do I. Does it matter if it was a man or a woman? And if so, why?
Yep. I believe that Madeleine was abducted. Try a bit of logistics. Anything else is too fanciful and far too complicated.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 16, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
It's straight forward and not complicated at all. It doesn't matter what he was doing in those 10 minutes? SY/PJ will be very interested in what was happening. But JT did say Kate told her why he was away for that long in the reconstruction. Watching football. How Kate knew he was watching football is a mystery as she wasn't there. And he didn't say that in any of his statements.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 16, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
UEFA Cup Th 03May 2007 Seville 2 - 0 Osasuna Th 03May 2007 W Bremen 1 - 2 Espanyol
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 16, 2013, 04:38:25 PM
Yes I found that and posted it the other week. Watching football for a few minutes in between meals. Not in the statements so not having it! It's a good alibi but already worked out which is even more suspicious IMO.
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: Redblossom on November 16, 2013, 05:00:28 PM
5.30pm at the crèche. Is it true no photos exist of Madeleine that day?
and 6.30 by D Payne if you consider him an independent witness..but his descriptionof his visit varies alot with KMs...re the photos, there is the last photo said to have been taken the last day....though a few people think its faked...one reason being it does not exist in the police files as other of their photos did and it took three weeks to be published....oh have severely gone off topic now
Ps no, no eye witness of what she was wearing that day,not that I have read of anyway
Title: Re: How likely is it that Jane Tanner and the Smiths saw the 'same' man ?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 16, 2013, 05:41:40 PM
thanks agree on varying accounts re DP/KM. better get back on topic.