UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mrs. B on June 26, 2013, 03:10:13 PM
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Here's Amaral's theory!
Gonçalo Amaral in El Mundo: Gerry McCann hid Madeleine corpse in the Beach
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lWXrpwC28yU/SMLku3zJxuI/AAAAAAAAC7s/JVgN-7kQaBQ/s320-R/1220677421_0.jpg)
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/09/gonalo-amaral-in-el-mundo-gerry-mccann.html
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If the man the Smith's saw was Gerry then I would think his choice of hiding place was practical rather than strategic, in that it was probably the first place he came across. The concealing of the body, if found, could be blamed on the abductor therefore I'm not sure that the place chosen was chosen for concealment in the longterm but simply to put distance between the McCanns and the body and to bolster the story of abduction.
As to removing the body at around 10pm rather than in the middle of the night there may be many reasons for this, among them :
1. Panicked reaction by McCanns.
2. If the body was found the time of death would be absolutely apparent so how would the McCanns explain that someone had abducted an already dead body ?
3. If seen it be much less conspicuous to be carrying around a child at 10pm when parents would be bringing their children from the crèche than in the early hours of the morning.
So what time was the body found?
What panic? Gerry was chatting to Jez perfectly normally at 9.20ish and then went and had his meal. Kate and the others also behaved perfectly normally, eating, drinking, chatting at the restaurant until the alarm was raised. No-one panicked in the slightest until after then.
Never in a million years would Gerry decide to walk round PdL openly carrying a dead body, not even covered up or hidden in any way, on the offchance that he MIGHT just get lucky and find somewhere to dump it. They had all spent every evening in the restaurant and so he would have no idea how many people or what traffic would be around at 10.00 at night. And can you imagine the others letting him do something so stupid!
Sorry Faith, it doesn't work for me. By claiming Gerry could have been the man the Smiths saw you are trying to fit a quart into a pint pot IMO - and that's simply not possible.
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Which is exactly why it was discarded by both the Portuguese AG & Scotland Yard. It's simply a delusional idea.
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They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!
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So what time was the body found?
What panic? Gerry was chatting to Jez perfectly normally at 9.20ish and then went and had his meal. Kate and the others also behaved perfectly normally, eating, drinking, chatting at the restaurant until the alarm was raised. No-one panicked in the slightest until after then.
Never in a million years would Gerry decide to walk round PdL openly carrying a dead body, not even covered up or hidden in any way, on the offchance that he MIGHT just get lucky and find somewhere to dump it. They had all spent every evening in the restaurant and so he would have no idea how many people or what traffic would be around at 10.00 at night. And can you imagine the others letting him do something so stupid!
Sorry Faith, it doesn't work for me. By claiming Gerry could have been the man the Smiths saw you are trying to fit a quart into a pint pot IMO - and that's simply not possible. As to his friends letting him take a particular course of action you are assuming they knew what had happened at that point.
If Gerry's check was after his talk with Jez ( Jez wasn't certain whether Gerry was coming or going from the apartment) then that would explain Gerry's 'normal' behaviour. After that visit there are no witness statements that say anything about how the McCanns and their friends were acting. In fact I can't remember any of the serving staff actually mentioning the seeing Kate run back to the table and raise the alarm.
As to the traffic issue Gerry himself says that he didn't see anyone on the previous nights while checking so I think he would have a good idea how likely it would be that he would be seen.As to his friends letting him take a particular course of action you are assuming they knew what had happened at that point
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If Gerry's check was after his talk with Jez ( Jez wasn't certain whether Gerry was coming or going from the apartment) then that would explain Gerry's 'normal' behaviour. After that visit there are no witness statements that say anything about how the McCanns and their friends were acting. In fact I can't remember any of the serving staff actually mentioning the seeing Kate run back to the table and raise the alarm.
As to the traffic issue Gerry himself says that he didn't see anyone on the previous nights while checking so I think he would have a good idea how likely it would be that he would be seen.As to his friends letting him take a particular course of action you are assuming they knew what had happened at that point
Gerry didn't go into Pdl he just took the one road back to the apartment. He could have no idea what was going on elsewhere in the village.
I find it hard to believe that when they parted company Jez would not notice which direction Gerry headed off in. i.e. Up to road to the apartment, or down the road to the restaurant. He didn't just vanish into thin air on the spot.
If you really believe that all those people could take the news that Madeleine was dead, and still remain sitting at the table eating their meals and carrying on as if Gerry had just told them he'd found a dead beetle on his way back to the table, then we have no chance of agreeing on anything Faith.
The shock would be massive! It is not humanly possible for them to be able to appear totally unmoved - and to calmly start planning a cover up. Kate would have been beside herself from the moment she heard the news. This was her little daughter FGS! There would be pandemonium! And no way would the restaurant staff have NOT noticed it. However, they didn't notice anything odd, and that's because nothing odd happened.
Give it up Faith - the reaction and behaviour you are suggesting is not humanly possibly to achieve - especially when you have had no notice at all of what is about to happen.
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I can hardly believe some of what is being suggested. Gerry running around PdL with a dead body over his shoulder? Dumping it in a bin and hot footing back to the Tapas bar? Dumping it in a derelict property that at least some will have searched? All while Kate is throwing a wobbly before he actually gets back? And that's before we get into retrieving the decomposing body three weeks later.
You would have to make this up.
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If Gerry's check was after his talk with Jez ( Jez wasn't certain whether Gerry was coming or going from the apartment) then that would explain Gerry's 'normal' behaviour. After that visit there are no witness statements that say anything about how the McCanns and their friends were acting. In fact I can't remember any of the serving staff actually mentioning the seeing Kate run back to the table and raise the alarm.
As to the traffic issue Gerry himself says that he didn't see anyone on the previous nights while checking so I think he would have a good idea how likely it would be that he would be seen.As to his friends letting him take a particular course of action you are assuming they knew what had happened at that point
Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm
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Here's Amaral's theory!
Gonçalo Amaral in El Mundo: Gerry McCann hid Madeleine corpse in the Beach
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/09/gonalo-amaral-in-el-mundo-gerry-mccann.html
Thanks Mrs B - I've never read that before. So have I got this right? Gerry buried Madeleine on the beach, then a few days later went in his car (which he didn't have) and moved her again (to the freezer?) - and then 3 weeks later moved her again in another car to a third place which has never been found! And all in the glare of the world's press.
So where were the PJ? Surely they should have been following Gerry ? Ahh but nooo - Amaral decided his men would be better occupied following the British police who had arrived.
How the interviewer kept a straight face I will never know. I'm gobsmacked.
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Thanks Mrs B - I've never read that before. So have I got this right? Gerry buried Madeleine on the beach, then a few days later went in his car (which he didn't have) and moved her again (to the freezer?) - and then 3 weeks later moved her again in another car to a third place which has never been found! And all in the glare of the world's press.
So where were the PJ? Surely they should have been following Gerry ? Ahh but nooo - Amaral decided his men would be better occupied following the British police who had arrived.
How the interviewer kept a straight face I will never know. I'm gobsmacked.
Yes, and as I said above, he also dug that large hole in the sand with his bare hands, as nobody reported seeing man carrying child + large shovel.
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Yes, and as I said above, he also dug that large hole in the sand with his bare hands, as nobody reported seeing man carrying child + large shovel.
Oh you must have missed Gerry with a shovel, Mrs B.
We were told this years ago, along with the tiles being parquet tiles. @)(++(*
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Oh you must have missed Gerry with a shovel, Mrs B.
We were told this years ago, along with the tiles being parquet tiles. @)(++(*
Ah, I must have missed that, I guess the shovel must be in the same place as the non existing fridge.
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A - So did I. She is not cold. There was a moment, in a meeting with them, when we set out the sofa theory. Kate puts her head down, looking distant, and, after a few seconds, she looked up again as if nothing had happened. She looked like she was escaping from the role that she was interpreting.
Here Amaral is giving the impression that he was in on that meeting with Kate when in truth he had never met Kate McCann. I see he's also peddling the rubbish that Calpol is a "sleeping solution" in that interview.
So just in that one interview he is twisting the truth and lying about Calpol having soporific qualities.
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Yes, and as I said above, he also dug that large hole in the sand with his bare hands, as nobody reported seeing man carrying child + large shovel.
He's superhuman that Gerry McCann isn't he - he's a master criminal who can be in two places at once and dig a big hole with his bare hands! @)(++(*
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I've always said that Amaral's most libellous comments aren't in his book but in the various interviews he later did.
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I am prepared to believe that the parents could be involved as history does tell us that parents do unfortunately mistreat and harm their children - but looking at this as an investigator would I have to see means and the above examples of how crazy the various theories are to try an incorporate all the witnesses just seems impossible.
Bodies don't just disappear - Are we really to believe that in the 6 weeks until the hire car rental her body was hidden in the village - either in a bin or an abandoned house ??
No for me whatever happened to Maddie - she was not in the town = over the border
I read with incredulity some of the more vociferous views on other sites such as Tanners where they have a big joke about how the abduction is not possible - yet I have never seen a logical feasible explanation on how the body was disposed and never discovered by Gerry in the time frame he had
Granted some of the more way out theories involve duplicate Maddies , swinging and cocaine !!
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I've always said that Amaral's most libellous comments aren't in his book but in the various interviews he later did.
That is a good point Mrs B. It's just a shame that the wheels grind so slowly in PT, but hopefully it won't be too long before he is made to stop his lies once and for all.
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Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm
So no first hand evidence as I said.
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Gerry didn't go into Pdl he just took the one road back to the apartment. He could have no idea what was going on elsewhere in the village.
I find it hard to believe that when they parted company Jez would not notice which direction Gerry headed off in. i.e. Up to road to the apartment, or down the road to the restaurant. He didn't just vanish into thin air on the spot.
If you really believe that all those people could take the news that Madeleine was dead, and still remain sitting at the table eating their meals and carrying on as if Gerry had just told them he'd found a dead beetle on his way back to the table, then we have no chance of agreeing on anything Faith.
The shock would be massive! It is not humanly possible for them to be able to appear totally unmoved - and to calmly start planning a cover up. Kate would have been beside herself from the moment she heard the news. This was her little daughter FGS! There would be pandemonium! And no way would the restaurant staff have NOT noticed it. However, they didn't notice anything odd, and that's because nothing odd happened.
Give it up Faith - the reaction and behaviour you are suggesting is not humanly possibly to achieve - especially when you have had no notice at all of what is about to happen.
As I said we have no idea when the rest of their friends learned of Madeline's death, perhaps it was only after the alarm.
As to Jez knowing in what direction Gerry went after he left him, it's obvious from his statement that he wasn't sure.
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As I said we have no idea when the rest of their friends learned of Madeline's death, perhaps it was only after the alarm.
As to Jez knowing in what direction Gerry went after he left him, it's obvious from his statement that he wasn't sure.
??
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Jeronimo Tomas Rodigues Salcedo, a Tapas bar waiter (who saw Gerry McCann searching the children’s play area at the point whilst Dianne Webster was still sitting at the restaurant table)
"On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
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I've always said that Amaral's most libellous comments aren't in his book but in the various interviews he later did.
Yes, I agree.
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I've always said that Amaral's most libellous comments aren't in his book but in the various interviews he later did.
Is it known whether it is just his libellous book which he is being sued over - or are interviews and documentaries included? I've often wondered.
I've just read that interview again. I'm appalled at the sheer barefaced dishonesty of the man.
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A - So did I. She is not cold. There was a moment, in a meeting with them, when we set out the sofa theory. Kate puts her head down, looking distant, and, after a few seconds, she looked up again as if nothing had happened. She looked like she was escaping from the role that she was interpreting.
Here Amaral is giving the impression that he was in on that meeting with Kate when in truth he had never met Kate McCann. I see he's also peddling the rubbish that Calpol is a "sleeping solution" in that interview.
So just in that one interview he is twisting the truth and lying about Calpol having soporific qualities.
Here he is once again giving the impression that he has met the McCanns.
Q. What do you see when facing the McCanns?
A. They are 2 people with much fear, I do not know if they fear to be discovered or fear the police of an unknown country.
UNQUOTE
He's a past master at ''lying by omission.'' That's when you leave out a vital piece of information in order to give the other person the impression you want them to have, rather than the true impression. He does the same in his book. He goes to great lengths to hide the fact that he never ever met or spoke to Kate McCann, and I believe he only met Gerry once - briefly on one occasion, although I've never seen anything to confirm that myself.
Sooooo dishonest. imo.
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Is it known whether it is just his libellous book which he is being sued over - or are interviews and documentaries included? I've often wondered.
I've just read that interview again. I'm appalled at the sheer barefaced dishonesty of the man.
Don't know exactly how wide their complaint was, but you could of course always argue that these interviews were given in an attempt to advertise his book & is therefore integrally linked to the actual book. Though that remains to be seen.
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Jeronimo Tomas Rodigues Salcedo, a Tapas bar waiter (who saw Gerry McCann searching the children’s play area at the point whilst Dianne Webster was still sitting at the restaurant table)
"On the night Madeleine disappeared, everything appeared normal. I remember that when I took notice of the disappearance, I had been in the restaurant speaking with my two colleagues?Ze and Ricardo who were on break. I returned to the restaurant and noticed that the table of nine was empty with the exception of the older woman. I went over to the table and joked with her: ?They've left you alone?? She responded more of less with these words: ?No, they went to see if the little girl was there.? I responded that I hoped they would find her somewhere in the apartment. At saying this, I saw the man. Who I knew later to be Madeleines father, running to the pool and to the childrens play area in the Tapas zone as if looking for someone. It immediately hit me that after talking to the older woman, that the little girl had not been found. I offered to alert the workers at the Milenium Restaurant and the man agreed. He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm
He gave different times in his first statement, when his memory would have been at its clearest.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
'Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.'
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Here he is once again giving the impression that he has met the McCanns.
Q. What do you see when facing the McCanns?
A. They are 2 people with much fear, I do not know if they fear to be discovered or fear the police of an unknown country.
UNQUOTE
He's a past master at ''lying by omission.'' That's when you leave out a vital piece of information in order to give the other person the impression you want them to have, rather than the true impression. He does the same in his book. He goes to great lengths to hide the fact that he never ever met or spoke to Kate McCann, and I believe he only met Gerry once - briefly on one occasion, although I've never seen anything to confirm that myself.
Sooooo dishonest. imo.
Extremely dishonest. I can see how people could potentially be sucked into the "McCanns did it" way of thinking by reading stuff like this, and fora where the discredited Tavares de Alemeida interim report is pushed as the Bible for this case, and other downright lies that are being peddled day in, day out. People just swallowing all this rubbish!
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
The person in question said that the others had gone to the apartment to look for a girl who had disappeared. Seconds later Madeleine's father appeared, greatly agitated, looking for his daughter everywhere, obviously and immediately heading towards the pool and surrounding areas.
So there's Gerry again, this time around 22.20. Not working really is it, this buying children at the beach theory?
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http://amaralfiction.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/poirot-holmes-and-plagiarism.html
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He gave different times in his first statement, when his memory would have been at its clearest.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
'Referring to the day of 3rd May when Madeleine disappeared, the witness says that he was working.
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.'
The Leicestershire police officers who interviewed him should have had his original statement, but didn't query the time he gave.
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So have I got this right? Gerry buried Madeleine on the beach,
No, you haven't got it right, Benice. Why are you pretending Inspector Amaral said Mr Mcann buried Madeleine on the beach ?
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He gave different times in his first statement, when his memory would have been at its clearest.
The first statement has more chances to be close to reality.
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This is what Amaral said in the interview:
A – This is what we were investigating when I was dismissed from the case. I want to recall that there is an Irish man who claimed to have seen Gerry McCann with a girl in his arms, on his way towards the beach that same night. That testimony has been hidden. The dogs specialized in finding traces of blood and odour of cadaver, found both in the wall of the apartment and in the boot of the car that the McCann rented 23 days later.
Not so difficult to understand what he's trying to say, is it, really?
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He goes to great lengths to hide the fact that he never ever met or spoke to Kate McCann, and I believe he only met Gerry once - briefly on one occasion, although I've never seen anything to confirm that myself.
Are you sure Inspector Amaral never met Mrs McCann and only briefly (when ?) Mr McCann?
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Not so difficult to understand what he's trying to say, is it, really?
Don't you think police inspectors have to have suspicions, Mrs. B ?
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No, I don't think they do actually, I think they should look at the evidence & use common sense. Not much of that in Amaral's case though.
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Are you sure Inspector Amaral never met Mrs McCann and only briefly (when ?) Mr McCann?
Well Kate is sure.
"And so it was that on December the 11th 2009, I first set eyes on Sr goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had set eyes on me. It is extraordinary that he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met".
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If the man the Smith's saw was Gerry then I would think his choice of hiding place was practical rather than strategic, in that it was probably the first place he came across. The concealing of the body, if found, could be blamed on the abductor therefore I'm not sure that the place chosen was chosen for concealment in the longterm but simply to put distance between the McCanns and the body and to bolster the story of abduction.
So as a relative stranger, Gerry was desperately walking around, looking for a suitable place to dump Madeleines body? Is that what you are saying Faith?
Why didn't he go north then where it is quieter as it goes into the suburbs, rather than walk towards the possible action of the more central parts of PdL? The man carrying Madeleine almost certainly knew where he was going and he was determined to get there.
As to removing the body at around 10pm rather than in the middle of the night there may be many reasons for this, among them :
1. Panicked reaction by McCanns.
2. If the body was found the time of death would be absolutely apparent so how would the McCanns explain that someone had abducted an already dead body ?
3. If seen it be much less conspicuous to be carrying around a child at 10pm when parents would be bringing their children from the crèche than in the early hours of the morning.
1. So Gerry rushed off, knowing that his absence might be noticed [but it wasn't cos he was there at the tapas] from the table. Is that what you are saying Faith? Doesn't make sense does it?
2. This hypothesis doesn't make sense. Think about it Faith. If the body were dumped at say 1 a.m. then with no alarm being raised to the police, it is very unlikely anyone would find a body until people were around and probably not for many hours. Too late to judge exactly how long Madeleine had been dead
3. Yep, I agree to a certain extent
The only problem being, that where the Smiths saw bundleman and Madeleine was NOT on any route between the creche and Ocean Club. It was about a quarter of a mile away from any route, creche > OC.
Unless you know of any bit of OC that bundleman was walking in the direction of? Cos all that I know of is a good distance to the east of that spot.
So sorry, but NIL points ... but good try
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/J-T-R-Salcedas.htm
At that time, at about 22.20 - 22.30 he noticed that there was only one person sitting at the group's table, the oldest of them and he asked her jokingly whether they had left her alone.
The person in question said that the others had gone to the apartment to look for a girl who had disappeared. Seconds later Madeleine's father appeared, greatly agitated, looking for his daughter everywhere, obviously and immediately heading towards the pool and surrounding areas.
So there's Gerry again, this time around 22.20. Not working really is it, this buying children at the beach theory?
No,i agree, burying children at the beach doesn't work. However concealing them in a disused building, municipal bin etc, hot tailing it back to the OC for the alarm, which Gerry himself was at about 10.13, does.
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The Leicestershire police officers who interviewed him should have had his original statement, but didn't query the time he gave.
And ?
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Well Kate is sure.
"And so it was that on December the 11th 2009, I first set eyes on Sr goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had set eyes on me. It is extraordinary that he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met".
Then it is his word against hers !
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No,i agree, burying children at the beach doesn't work.
Who doesn't remember his/her childhood and how hellish it was digging a hole in the dry sand can read Prof. Harrison's comments on this topic.
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Then it is his word against hers !
No comment!
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"And so it was that on December the 11th 2009, I first set eyes on Sr goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had set eyes on me. It is extraordinary that he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met".
I was sitting just behind Mrs McCann when Mr Amaral entered the court room. Mrs Payne pushed Mrs McCann's elbow, excited like a schoolgirl noticing the director is passing by. Mrs McCann didn't even turn her head.
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No,i agree, burying children at the beach doesn't work. However concealing them in a disused building, municipal bin etc, hot tailing it back to the OC for the alarm, which Gerry himself was at about 10.13, does.
Total fantasies, do you lot never realise how utterly insane your theories are?
WHERE is the DISUSED building en route to beach (in a HOLIDAY resort)? How did Gerry McCann know about it? How did Gerry McCann know when the bins were going to be emptied? How did they retrieve the body when the police were already in place & setting up in the OC garden with loads of people running around looking everywhere.
On top of that, you think that a whole group of people (some who hardly even knew the McCanns) were happy to be in on a massive conspiracy theory to cover up the death of a child?
How did the "body" get into the car three weeks later?
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No comment!
Hmmm....no, short memories some people have.
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Total fantasies, do you lot never realise how utterly insane your theories are?
What about your abduction one ? Nobody said it was insane !
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How did Gerry McCann know when the bins were going to be emptied?
The bin truck passed every night.
Mrs McCann checked a bin in the morning.
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No, that's because it isn't insane. But your ideas about carrying around dead children, chucking them in bins, breaking into disused buildings are, by definition, totally INSANE.
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On top of that, you think that a whole group of people (some who hardly even knew the McCanns) were happy to be in on a massive conspiracy theory to cover up the death of a child?
No conspiracy occurred, this is a Pro's myth.
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The bin truck passed every night.
Mrs McCann checked a bin in the morning.
OK, so where is the information that the McCann knew exactly what time the bin truck passed by? It's not something tourist on a weeks holiday normally know about.
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No, that's because it isn't insane. But your ideas about carrying around dead children, chucking them in bins, breaking into disused buildings are, by definition, totally INSANE.
Prove it !
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No conspiracy occurred, this is a Pro's myth.
LOL So it was the pro's who invented the "pact of silence", was it?
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OK, so where is the information that the McCann knew exactly what time the bin truck passed by? It's not something tourist on a weeks holiday normally know about.
He took a chance and it worked ! Smart guy.
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LOL So it was the pro's who invented the "pact of silence", was it?
They fed it, at least..
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Prove it !
No, something that is totally illogical, doesn't work logistically doesn't have to be proven. I think you've also misunderstood where the burden of proof lies. It's on YOU, the accuser.
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How did the "body" get into the car three weeks later?
As Faithlilly said, this was a Mr Amaral's godsend ! You should be nicer with him perhaps.
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No, something that is totally illogical, doesn't work logistically doesn't have to be proven. I think you've also misunderstood where the burden of proof lies. It's on YOU, the accuser.
You're very wrong there, Mrs. B. I'm not accusing, I'm no prosecutor. I'm just interested in human kind.
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The fed it, at least..
The fed what?
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The bin truck passed every night.
Mrs McCann checked a bin in the morning.
What time did the bin truck pass every night Anne?
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The fed what?
They, sorry !
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Total fantasies, do you lot never realise how utterly insane your theories are?
WHERE is the DISUSED building en route to beach (in a HOLIDAY resort)? How did Gerry McCann know about it? How did Gerry McCann know when the bins were going to be emptied? How did they retrieve the body when the police were already in place & setting up in the OC garden with loads of people running around looking everywhere.
On top of that, you think that a whole group of people (some who hardly even knew the McCanns) were happy to be in on a massive conspiracy theory to cover up the death of a child?
How did the "body" get into the car three weeks later?
Obviously you have never been to PDL. As sadie will confirm if you turn right from the location of the Smith sighting and carry on up the hill on the way back to the OC there are several dilapidated buildings which would make an excellent hiding place and there are also several large bins.
As to Gerry knowing about the emptying times of the bins, if he expected the body to be found, and the death blamed on the abductor, he didn't have to know. That the body wasn't found was a simple twist of fate.
Also, as I have said before,I don't believe the body was retrieved or spent anytime in the Scenic.
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No, something that is totally illogical, doesn't work logistically doesn't have to be proven. I think you've also misunderstood where the burden of proof lies. It's on YOU, the accuser.
And I think you've mistaken this for a court of law.
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What time did the bin truck pass every night Anne?
I'm not inventing this, DCI. They passed every night, except on Sunday. It's referred to in Searching for Madeleine: A Dispatches Special, 18 October 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
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LOL Disused buildings where NOBODY looked in for THREE weeks? Pure fantasies.
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LOL Disused buildings where NOBODY looked in for THREE weeks? Pure fantasies.
nier ce qui est, et expliquer ce qui n'est pas..
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LOL Disused buildings where NOBODY looked in for THREE weeks? Pure fantasies.
It's possible though, I admit, not very probable. I favour the bin theory myself.
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If I don't translate E.Allen Poe's words, Redblossom will not like it :
Deny what exists and explain what doesn't.
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nier ce qui est, et expliquer ce qui n'est pas..
Not applicable in this case though.
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It's possible though, I admit, not very probable. I favour the bin theory myself.
Some theories just don't contemplate what it is, for a father, to hold in his arms the dead body of his adored daughter. This is terrible.
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I'm not inventing this, DCI. They passed every night, except on Sunday. It's referred to in Searching for Madeleine: A Dispatches Special, 18 October 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
At what time though? Does anyone know?
Don't get me wrong here, I'm quite happy that you are finally willing to nail your colours to the mast here, it's been a long time coming.
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Not applicable in this case though.
Applicable to Mrs McCann (read her book !) : For her reality is wrong.
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Deleted.
Something went wrong with the post
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At what time though? Does anyone know?
Don't get me wrong here, I'm quite happy that you are finally willing to nail your colours to the mast here, it's been a long time coming.
No, Mrs. B, I've answered you immediately when you asked about the who, what, when, where why. Don't you remember ?
This is evidently only a possible scenario, I find it more challenging than the abduction by a stranger and on top of that from bed one, this one I find not insane but vulgar.
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Applicable to Mrs McCann (read her book !) : For her reality is wrong.
No, her reality is real. Amaral on the other hand, seems to have a real problem with distinguishing what is real from what is not.
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Obviously you have never been to PDL. As sadie will confirm if you turn right from the location of the Smith sighting and carry on up the hill on the way back to the OC there are several dilapidated buildings which would make an excellent hiding place and there are also several large bins.
As to Gerry knowing about the emptying times of the bins, if he expected the body to be found, and the death blamed on the abductor, he didn't have to know. That the body wasn't found was a simple twist of fate.
Also, as I have said before,I don't believe the body was retrieved or spent anytime in the Scenic.
But he did NOT turn tight as was mentioned in one of the threads earlier. The stragglers in the Smiths party observed him going in an easterly direction. Now that might only have been a few steps east and it might have been to take him around them so that he could carry on downhill, down the steps they had just come up.
We dont know that, BUT we Do know that he did NOT turn right, which is West. He either went South or he went East.
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I'm not inventing this, DCI. They passed every night, except on Sunday. It's referred to in Searching for Madeleine: A Dispatches Special, 18 October 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
Didn't you say the sites were locked at night?
You also said how many bins were searched, on the night!
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No, Mrs. B, I've answered you immediately when you asked about the who, what, when, where why. Don't you remember ?
This is evidently only a possible scenario, I find it more challenging than the abduction by a stranger and on top of that from bed one, this one I find not insane but vulgar.
No you didn't answer - you said every night, not what time. And the "bin theory" very much hinges on the TIME the bins were emptied. Early evening? Late evening? After the disappearance or before? This should not be too hard to find out, local residents would know.
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A Dispatches Special, 18 October 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id49.html
Portugal has many more paedophiles than it cares to admit, and an odd attitude towards underage sex. Under Portuguese law, the age of consent (between couples of the same age) is 13.
Our experts also noted that when children are found to have been abused, the victim is taken into care, while the abuser is often left free.
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But he did NOT turn tight as was mentioned in one of the threads earlier. The stragglers in the Smiths party observed him going in an easterly direction. Now that might only have been a few steps east and it might have been to take him around them so that he could carry on downhill, down the steps they had just come up.
We dont know that, BUT we Do know that he did NOT turn right, which is West. He either went South or he went East.
Now that's not true, is it sadie ?
Martin Smith : 'He is not aware where this person was headed. He only saw him as they passed each other.'
Aofie Smith : ' She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril. '
Peter Smith : 'He does not know what direction the individual took as he only saw him as they passed each other.'
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No you didn't answer - you said every night, not what time. And the "bin theory" very much hinges on the TIME the bins were emptied. Early evening? Late evening? After the disappearance or before? This should not be too hard to find out, local residents would know.
Why do you think Mrs McCann lifted the lid of a bin around 6am ? Yes, the bins were empty, the truck had gone and nobody could have noticed what was in the bins.
The time they pass depends on the quantity of stuff to collect. Almost 200 containers in PDL. In the beginning of May it was around 2/3am. I think now they pass later.
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Now that's not true, is it sadie ?
Martin Smith : 'He is not aware where this person was headed. He only saw him as they passed each other.'
Aofie Smith : ' She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril. '
Peter Smith : 'He does not know what direction the individual took as he only saw him as they passed each other.'
Sadie is right : he either went south (steps) or east (church). But he might have changed his mind towards west when Aoife was gone.
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Didn't you say the sites were locked at night?
You also said how many bins were searched, on the night!
The stuff goes first to a certain (closed) place where it is pressed underground. After another truck picks the product and takes it to the landfill.
I'm aware everybody is horrified, but in fact what quickly happens to bodies inside of coffins is horrible as well.
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Why do you think Mrs McCann lifted the lid of a bin around 6am ? Yes, the bins were empty, the truck had gone and nobody could have noticed what was in the bins.
The time they pass depends on the quantity of stuff to collect. Almost 200 containers in PDL. In the beginning of May it was around 2/3am. I think now they pass later.
Just because Kate McCann lifted the lid to the bin doesn't actually mean that they KNEW which time the bins were emptied, does it?
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No, her reality is real. Amaral on the other hand, seems to have a real problem with distinguishing what is real from what is not.
Excuse me, Mrs. B, but you're not Mrs McCann and therefore you can't possibly claim that "her reality is real" ! The simple use of "her" reveals it is not. Read again "Madeleine", perhaps you'll understand what I mean.
Mr Amaral, as I already said, has much in common with Mrs McCann. One and the other are prone to reject a perception contrary to their expectations.
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Now that's not true, is it sadie ?
Martin Smith : 'He is not aware where this person was headed. He only saw him as they passed each other.'
Aofie Smith : ' She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril. '
Peter Smith : 'He does not know what direction the individual took as he only saw him as they passed each other.'
It is true and it was posted earlier on this forum.
Unlike you and yours, I do not have a back up team finding things in the files, and feeding them to me ... and I aint wasting time revisiting things that are already posted.
One of the stragglers coming up the steps saw him veer to her right. In other words he was NOT going West, but east towards the Church and Malinkas place ... or maybe south in the general direction of the small rocky beach.
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Just because Kate McCann lifted the lid to the bin doesn't actually mean that they KNEW which time the bins were emptied, does it?
They likely didn't, why would they have bothered ? Mrs McCann checked the truck had passed. The abduction story gained weight. Don't forget it was like in a nightmare but they weren't dreaming.
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Sorry but I simply don't agree, Kate McCann is writing about HER experiences, they are REAL to her, nobody else can say they are not. Amaral on the other hand waffles on about people he hasn't even MET before, he describes Kate McCann's feelings though he's never even talked to her. And that is made purely in an attempt to deceive the reader that he had first hand knowledge, which we now know he had NOT.
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Sadie is right : he either went south (steps) or east (church). But he might have changed his mind towards west when Aoife was gone.
She isn't Anne. At the bottom of the road the carrier could have turned right and carried on up the hill. I was in PDL the night the Smith sighting was being filmed for Amaral's documentary and saw the actor filming the scene while walking by on the road he could have taken.
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They likely didn't, why would they have bothered ? Mrs McCann checked the truck had passed. The abduction story gained weight. Don't forget it was like in a nightmare but they weren't dreaming.
That just doesn't make sense, so they chuck their child in the bin & then they tell the world that they went & checked the bin? It was Kate McCann who said she'd checked it, not Amaral, now why on earth would she care to share that detail if she knew her dead child had been in it?
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Sadie is right : he either went south (steps) or east (church). But he might have changed his mind towards west when Aoife was gone.
Thank you Anne.
I concede that he just might have looped back again to the west, but it is unlikely, cos any of them could have looked back at any moment .... and neither would he have wanted to hang around, would he?
I think he went south, or east
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Sorry but I simply don't agree, Kate McCann is writing about HER experiences, they are REAL to her, nobody else can say they are not. Amaral on the other hand waffles on about people he hasn't even MET before, he describes Kate McCann's feelings though he's never even talked to her. And that is made purely in an attempt to deceive the reader that he had first hand knowledge, which we now know he had NOT.
Doesn't Mrs McCann "waffle on" about Mr Amaral though she claims she never met him ?
Nobody can impose the world his/her perception of reality and ordain it is reality. It's at best an interpretation.
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That just doesn't make sense, so they chuck their child in the bin & then they tell the world that they went & checked the bin? It was Kate McCann who said she'd checked it, not Amaral, now why on earth would she care to share that detail if she knew her dead child had been in it?
L'assassin revient toujours sur les lieux de son crime.
I'm kidding. Well have you read this passage ?
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She isn't Anne. At the bottom of the road the carrier could have turned right and carried on up the hill. I was in PDL the night the Smith sighting was being filmed for Amaral's documentary and saw the actor filming the scene while walking by on the road he could have taken.
But Aoife saw him as he was walking in her direction after crossing 25 de Abril and she was about to cross herself the other way round. If she had turned her head, she likely would have seen where he was heading.
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Doesn't Mrs McCann "waffle on" about Mr Amaral though she claims she never met him ?
Nobody can impose the world his/her perception of reality and ordain it is reality. It's at best an interpretation.
No she doesn't - she knows what he's written is his book, she knows what he's said in interviews. They weren't allowed to give interviews at that time, they hadn't written any book. HE HAD!
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L'assassin revient toujours sur les lieux de son crime.
I'm kidding. Well have you read this passage ?
Well, in detective novels they do, but not even in detective novels are the criminals so stupid they tell the whole world about it. Which passage are you referring to?
ETA Oops -it's very late here - speak later. Doesn't time just fly by when you're having fun? LOL
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Having fun ?
Fata volentem duc..t, nolentem trahunt
The system doesn't accept a "u" and a "n" after c !
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No, you haven't got it right, Benice. Why are you pretending Inspector Amaral said Mr Mcann buried Madeleine on the beach ?
I'm not pretending anything Anne, this is what Amaral said in his interview when asked for his opinion.
A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car.
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Then it is his word against hers !
It's ludicrous to suggest that Kate would decide to lie publically in her book and claim she had never met him or spoke to him if that wasn't true - as Amaral would be able to disprove it from his records, and there would be other PJ witnesses to confirm that she lied too. If Amaral could have found anything in her book which he could prove to be untrue he would have been shouting it from the rooftops long before now. But not a peep from him.
Why he decided from the start not to meet the McCanns is a mystery - but he obviously realises that it was a big mistake, because he makes every effort to conceal that fact from the Public - especially from the Portuguese public imo - both in his book and in interviews.
Totally dishonest IMO.
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so at least we now have a germs of a theory if you implicate Gerry . So On Gerry's check - he discovered Madeleine dead - he then left the apartment to ponder - met JW - chatted and then went back to the table to either inform the group of what he found and what to do OR kept it all to himself.
Then made a decision without telling anyone to nip back to the apartment grab the dead Maddie and rush down to PDL - where he was spotted by the Smiths . He then hid Maddie in a bin and nipped back to the restaurant just as Kate was making the discovery . The bin men came and went and Maddies body lost forever in landfill ?
Timings are a nightmare if you look at all restaurant staff - also if none of the other Tapas are implicated surely to goodness his being missing for 10 to 15 minutes would have been noticed by the rest
Even if this is logistically possible - which I highly doubt I just cant see the reason why Gerry on discovering his daughter deceased would quickly act like this ............ ???
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Quote from: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 09:45:39 PM
No, you haven't got it right, Benice. Why are you pretending Inspector Amaral said Mr Mcann buried Madeleine on the beach ?
I'm not pretending anything Anne, this is what Amaral said in his interview when asked for his opinion.
A - To me, Gerry hid Madeleine's body on the beach. And after a few days he moved her with his car.
You're not being honest, Benice, Inspector Amaral never made the ridiculous suggestion that Mr McCann buried a corpse on the beach. He suggested he hid. It could have been under a small boat, among the rocks, in a hole, there are many places actually that could have served for some hours (I don't believe Mr McCann did that).
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I just cant see the reason why Gerry on discovering his daughter deceased would quickly act like this ............ ???
This is the only interesting issue, but forget it if you think there are simple answers.
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Quote from: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 09:45:39 PM
No, you haven't got it right, Benice. Why are you pretending Inspector Amaral said Mr Mcann buried Madeleine on the beach ?
You're not being honest, Benice, Inspector Amaral never made the ridiculous suggestion that Mr McCann buried a corpse on the beach. He suggested he hid. It could have been under a small boat, among the rocks, in a hole, there are many places actually that could have served for some hours (I don't believe Mr McCann did that).
I asked for proof of this statement yesterday, and as far as I can see, none was forthcoming.
I wonder why.
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But Aoife saw him as he was walking in her direction after crossing 25 de Abril and she was about to cross herself the other way round. If she had turned her head, she likely would have seen where he was heading.
Aofie at the top of the stairs looked to her left and saw the carrier on 25 de Abril which means he was veering to his right, somewhere near Luzdoc.
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Aofie at the top of the stairs looked to her left and saw the carrier on 25 de Abril which means he was veering to his right, somewhere near Luzdoc.
You are quite wrong Faith
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm#p6p1611
1611 to 1614 Witness testimony of Aoife Smith taken 2007/05/26
6-Processos, Volume VI, pgs. 1611 to 1614
/SNIP/
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres /SNIP/
The steps she came up are almost opposite the street, Rua D'Escola, that Bundleman came down. It is a doglegged junction.
THe photograph shown is the way that Aofie walked up the steps. She was walking in a northerly direction. As you can clearly see the road that Bundleman came down is doglegged and you cant even see the western half of that street where Bundleman came down, so for Aofie to see him. he had to turn right (towards the east and the Church
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn315/itsonlyme_08/Gonc%20crap/smith1.jpg)
Bundleman came down, reportedly in the middle of f Rua D'Escola. He turned onto the pavement of Rua 25 Abril and walked only about 2 metres in front of Aoife. This means that he had turned left and was at that moment walking in an easterly direction towards the Church and Malinkas home. Look at the photo and you will see what I mean, about bundleman having to turn left to be near Aoife. Had he turned right in a westerly direction, as you believe Faith, he would never have been anywhere near Aoife
The easterly direction is the most likely way he carried on, but it is possible that he might have swung a little to the right afterpassing Aofie and gone down the very steps that Aofie and the Smiths came up. There were other members of the party behind Aofie, so I would have expected them to have noticed him. Seems they didn't. Therefore he almost certainly went East towards the Church and Malinkas
Most unlikely that he would have changed his direction altogether and gone west, cos had any one of that party looked back, they would have seen him do that.
Sorry Faith, but I think your theory about him going west to an empty house is a goner, especially if you are intimating that bundleman was Gerry ... cos if it was Gerry, he hadn't got a second to waste .... Had he?
Another myth hits the dust!
Additionally, from various witnesses we know that there was no sweaty Gerry, or ruffled Gerry at the table, and that he was there, at the table, all the pertinent time
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Aofie at the top of the stairs looked to her left and saw the carrier on 25 de Abril which means he was veering to his right, somewhere near Luzdoc.
Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
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Quote from: AnneGuedes on June 26, 2013, 09:45:39 PM
No, you haven't got it right, Benice. Why are you pretending Inspector Amaral said Mr Mcann buried Madeleine on the beach ?
You're not being honest, Benice, Inspector Amaral never made the ridiculous suggestion that Mr McCann buried a corpse on the beach. He suggested he hid. It could have been under a small boat, among the rocks, in a hole, there are many places actually that could have served for some hours (I don't believe Mr McCann did that).
I think you're splitting hairs now Anne. Why are you excluding burial? It's a beach FGS. You even say ''in a hole'' yourself - that's 'burial' isn't it? Does it matter whether Amaral thought the body was hidden by burying it on the beach, or hiding it under rocks - or whatever? The point is - it is his theory that Gerry took his daughter's body to the beach - concealed it - and then went back a few days later and moved it in his car. (what car?). Then three weeks later he moved it yet again in yet another car, to yet another place. I've never heard anything so ridiculous.
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Every bit Benice.
When thought about, and additionally with our new tools of measuring and examining images on GEarth, the whole Amaral theory is crazy
Yet another myth hits the dust.
Two myths in one thread that are shown to be wrong
Good to be getting at the truth.
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I think you're splitting hairs now Anne. Why are you excluding burial? It's a beach FGS. You even say ''in a hole'' yourself - that's 'burial' isn't it? Does it matter whether Amaral thought the body was hidden by burying it on the beach, or hiding it under rocks - or whatever? The point is - it is his theory that Gerry took his daughter's body to the beach - concealed it - and then went back a few days later and moved it in his car. (what car?). Then three weeks later he moved it yet again in yet another car, to yet another place. I've never heard anything so ridiculous.
Come on, Benice, who is "splitting" actually ? Mr Amaral doesn't for a second pretend Mr McCann digged the sand and you know it. Is any bit of opportunity to ridicule Mr Amaral irresistible ?
Humans bury the dead, they don't conceal them. Bury means make a hole and then cover whatever you put in that hole.
I'm not Mr Amaral btw nor his disciple nor a fighter for his hypothesis, why do you question me as if I were ?
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Amaral's theory has more holes than swiss cheese
That is not to say, though, that his thesis in general ( that the missing child died in the apartment and an abduction was subsequently staged ), can be dismissed out of hand
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Come on, Benice, who is "splitting" actually ? Mr Amaral doesn't for a second pretend Mr McCann digged the sand and you know it. Is any bit of opportunity to ridicule Mr Amaral irresistible ?
Humans bury the dead, they don't conceal them. Bury means make a hole and then cover whatever you put in that hole.
I'm not Mr Amaral btw nor his disciple nor a fighter for his hypothesis, why do you question me as if I were ?
Amaral doesn't say how Gerry supposedly hid a dead body on the beach Anne - so all possible options can be considered - including burying it in the sand. I still say you are splitting hairs.
What do you think of his... 'body hidden on the beach and moved a few day later'..... theory?
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Amaral doesn't say how Gerry supposedly hid a dead body on the beach Anne - so all possible options can be considered - including burying it in the sand. I still say you are splitting hairs.
What do you think of his... 'body hidden on the beach and moved a few day later'..... theory?
I think I was clear on that topic, Benice. Sometimes I wonder what idea people have of corpses. Moreover if ... Nothing of that kind, definitively no.
A French woman likely adored to be pregnant but couldn't bear having more children (she had two, very happy ones it seems). So she froze them (2), right after birth. Unfortunately nobody noticed she was pregnant, not even her husband, not even her friends at the yoga. This woman never moved the frozen babies, I guess she was horrified with the idea, because actually she could have disposed of the corpses and nobody would have never known. Her husband discovered the babies when she had left for holidays and he was alone.
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Come on, Benice, who is "splitting" actually ? Mr Amaral doesn't for a second pretend Mr McCann digged the sand and you know it. Is any bit of opportunity to ridicule Mr Amaral irresistible ?
Humans bury the dead, they don't conceal them. Bury means make a hole and then cover whatever you put in that hole.
I'm not Mr Amaral btw nor his disciple nor a fighter for his hypothesis, why do you question me as if I were ?
Of course he doesn't.
OOPS, what is this I found.
"The McCanns hid the body on the beach" DiarioMetro
Ruth Suárez
Published: 08:29 h. 11-09-2008
Gonçalo Amaral was the first inspector who coordinated the search for Madeleine, the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz (Portugal) on May 3, 2007. In October the same year, after considering the parents of the small child, Kate and Gerry McCann, as arguidos (suspects) for having concealed the corpse of their daughter, he was removed from the investigation. In July 2008 he decided to leave the police to tell his version of what happened. The result is Maddie, the truth of the lie, published by Esquilo.
According to you, what happened on May 3, 2007?
Madeleine McCann died from accidentally falling behind the sofa in the living room of the apartment. That couch had been moved during the alleged disappearance. I think that someone discovered the body, concealed it, cleaned everything and pushed the sofa to the window.
Who?
The parents of Madeleine.
On what basis can you say that?
The dogs brought in by the British police discovered cadaver odour behind the sofa and in the bedroom of the parents of the girl. Also on the small child's toy, the clothes of Kate and in the trunk and the keys to the car that was rented later.
And how did they conceal the body without anyone seeing?
Yes they were seen! An Irish family saw a man pass by them with a child in his arms at 22.05, on the way to the beach. Later, the girl was identified as Maddie. But they did not realise that the man who they had seen was Gerry until they were following television and saw how the McCanns landed in the UK.
What happened?
The position in which Gerry held one of the twins and his way of walking were identical to those of the individual who they had seen that night.
But, 22.05 was when Kate said that the girl had disappeared and Gerry was with her…
The hours are unclear. The only thing certain is that the McCanns told the National Republican Guard at 22.40. So, before that, Gerry had had time to bury the body of the girl on the beach.
And nobody saw him there? During the night when they were already looking for the girl.
Yes, but they were looking for a girl alive, not a girl dead. In addition, I am not saying that the body remained on the beach all the time. Clearly, the first thing was to remove it from the apartment. Later they could find other solutions to hide it. Witnesses of the National Republican Guard said they had seen the McCanns directed onto the beach twice in the course of that morning. Surely they quickly found a better place.
How does it explain that the dogs found the smell of a corpse in the McCanns car?
They rented it 24 days after the disappearance. It was what was being investigated when I was removed from the case.
You believe that they conserved it in a freezer all that time? Where?
There is a journalist who says that he saw the McCanns enter a block of apartments close to the beach, in the month of June… But we do not know in which flat they were. It is a building for tourists and they passed many people.
And why is it the dogs did not detect the smell of a corpse on the clothes of Gerry McCann?
You know which clothes Gerry was wearing that night? I do not yet know it.
There is more information that is still missing?
We asked the English police for reports on the couple, if they had a nanny in the United Kingdom, if they had had some problems in their work... We never received those answers.
Why? Do you believe that the McCanns have high level connections?
I do not know. I do not want to comment on that, but it is curious how the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, showed his support to the couple even after they were declared arguidos.
...
He even confirms the time the McCanns rang the GNR
The only thing certain is that the McCanns told the National Republican Guard at 22.40.
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Amaral's theory has more holes than swiss cheese
That is not to say, though, that his thesis in general ( that the missing child died in the apartment and an abduction was subsequently staged ), can be dismissed out of hand
Of course it cant, its the basis of MANY so called abduction cases which were anything but, happens all the time,And very much more frequently than stranger abductions of three yr olds from beds especially when on holiday
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The only thing certain is that the McCanns told the National Republican Guard at 22.40[. So, before that, Gerry had had time to bury the body of the girl on the beach.
Told what ? We know the McCanns told nothing to the GNR at 22.40. Do you have the original of what appears a misleading translation ?
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gnr were told at 22 40 of a missing child, the first phone call
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I know, but
The only thing certain is that the McCanns told the National Republican Guard at 22.40
is wrong. What about the rest of that supposed interview ?
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Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
Your point ?
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Of course he doesn't.
OOPS, what is this I found.
"The McCanns hid the body on the beach" DiarioMetro
Ruth Suárez
Published: 08:29 h. 11-09-2008
Gonçalo Amaral was the first inspector who coordinated the search for Madeleine, the girl who disappeared in Praia da Luz (Portugal) on May 3, 2007. In October the same year, after considering the parents of the small child, Kate and Gerry McCann, as arguidos (suspects) for having concealed the corpse of their daughter, he was removed from the investigation. In July 2008 he decided to leave the police to tell his version of what happened. The result is Maddie, the truth of the lie, published by Esquilo.
According to you, what happened on May 3, 2007?
Madeleine McCann died from accidentally falling behind the sofa in the living room of the apartment. That couch had been moved during the alleged disappearance. I think that someone discovered the body, concealed it, cleaned everything and pushed the sofa to the window.
Who?
The parents of Madeleine.
On what basis can you say that?
The dogs brought in by the British police discovered cadaver odour behind the sofa and in the bedroom of the parents of the girl. Also on the small child's toy, the clothes of Kate and in the trunk and the keys to the car that was rented later.
And how did they conceal the body without anyone seeing?
Yes they were seen! An Irish family saw a man pass by them with a child in his arms at 22.05, on the way to the beach. Later, the girl was identified as Maddie. But they did not realise that the man who they had seen was Gerry until they were following television and saw how the McCanns landed in the UK.
What happened?
The position in which Gerry held one of the twins and his way of walking were identical to those of the individual who they had seen that night.
But, 22.05 was when Kate said that the girl had disappeared and Gerry was with her…
The hours are unclear. The only thing certain is that the McCanns told the National Republican Guard at 22.40. So, before that, Gerry had had time to bury the body of the girl on the beach.[/size].
And nobody saw him there? During the night when they were already looking for the girl.
Yes, but they were looking for a girl alive, not a girl dead. In addition, I am not saying that the body remained on the beach all the time. Clearly, the first thing was to remove it from the apartment. Later they could find other solutions to hide it. Witnesses of the National Republican Guard said they had seen the McCanns directed onto the beach twice in the course of that morning. Surely they quickly found a better place.
How does it explain that the dogs found the smell of a corpse in the McCanns car?
They rented it 24 days after the disappearance. It was what was being investigated when I was removed from the case.
You believe that they conserved it in a freezer all that time? Where?
There is a journalist who says that he saw the McCanns enter a block of apartments close to the beach, in the month of June… But we do not know in which flat they were. It is a building for tourists and they passed many people.
And why is it the dogs did not detect the smell of a corpse on the clothes of Gerry McCann?
You know which clothes Gerry was wearing that night? I do not yet know it.
There is more information that is still missing?
We asked the English police for reports on the couple, if they had a nanny in the United Kingdom, if they had had some problems in their work... We never received those answers.
Why? Do you believe that the McCanns have high level connections?
I do not know. I do not want to comment on that, but it is curious how the British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, showed his support to the couple even after they were declared arguidos.
...
He even confirms the time the McCanns rang the GNR
The only thing certain is that the McCanns told the National Republican Guard at 22.40.
Amarals words:So, before that, Gerry had had time to bury the body of the girl on the beach.
so he DID say that they had buried the body of Madeleine on the beach ... someone got that wrong !
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You are quite wrong Faith
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm#p6p1611
1611 to 1614 Witness testimony of Aoife Smith taken 2007/05/26
6-Processos, Volume VI, pgs. 1611 to 1614
/SNIP/
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres /SNIP/
The steps she came up are almost opposite the street, Rua D'Escola, that Bundleman came down. It is a doglegged junction.
THe photograph shown is the way that Aofie walked up the steps. She was walking in a northerly direction. As you can clearly see the road that Bundleman came down is doglegged and you cant even see the western half of that street where Bundleman came down, so for Aofie to see him. he had to turn right (towards the east and the Church
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn315/itsonlyme_08/Gonc%20crap/smith1.jpg)
Bundleman came down keeping to the western side of Rua D'Escola. He turned onto the pavement of Rua 25 Abril and walked only about 2 metres in front of Aoife. This means that he had turned left and was at that moment walking in an easterly direction towards the Church and Malinkas home. Look at the photo and you will see what I mean, about bundleman having to turn left to be near Aoife. Had he turned right in a westerly direction, as you believe Faith, he would never have been anywhere near Aoife
The easterly direction is the most likely way he carried on, but it is possible that he might have swung a little to the right afterpassing Aofie and gone down the very steps that Aofie and the Smiths came up. There were other members of the party behind Aofie, so I would have expected them to have noticed him. Seems they didn't. Therefore he almost certainly went East towards the Church and Malinkas
Most unlikely that he would have changed his direction altogether and gone west, cos had any one of that party looked back, they would have seen him do that.
Sorry Faith, but I think your theory about him going west to an empty house is a goner, especially if you are intimating that bundleman was Gerry ... cos if it was Gerry, he hadn't got a second to waste .... Had he?
Another myth hits the dust!
Additionally, from various witnesses we know that there was no sweaty Gerry, or ruffled Gerry at the table, and that he was there, at the table, all the pertinent time
The second photograph in link shows exactly where Aofie was when she saw the carrier. If Aofie looked to her left from that point as she says the carrier must have been heading not to the corner that leads to the church but the corner that leads past Luzdoc and back up Rua 25 Abril.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/smith4.jpg&target=tlx_pic8n0f
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These photographs do not make sense at all, becuase peoiple who are walking take the shortest route possible ... and they are detours from the shortest route.
Also for bundleman to have gone west as you describe, he had to circle around Martin Smith. Where does it say that in the files?
The PJ made a huge mess of the plans of 5A and seems this is a mess up too.
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These photographs do not make sense at all, becuase peoiple who are walking take the shortest route possible ... and they are detours from the shortest route.
Also for bundleman to have gone west as you describe, he had to circle around Martin Smith. Where does it say that in the files?
The PJ made a huge mess of the plans of 5A and seems this is a mess up too.
They do not make sense to you sadie because they don't support your theory. As Martin Smith walked up the street and the carrier walked down they would have passed each other but that's all, no circling involved.
For once sadie admit you are wrong with the good grace that has so far eluded you.
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AnnaEsse
OK, here is the first part from frencheuropean's very detailed notes. Inaccuracies are mine!
Frencheuropean suggests that there may be some cuts in the interviews as broadcast because there seems to be lack of continuity in places.
***********************************Amaral footage*******************
Start of the broadcast. Sylvie Bonnec recalls the circumstances of May 3rd and how G Amaral was thrown off the investigation but remains convinced that sooner or later the truth will see the light of day (images from the documentary) She introduces Paul Lefèvre, a legal journalist. She recalls that 4 years later, the parents were exonerated after having been suspected. She presents surprising images recorded by the police. Kate’s appeal to the abductors is shown from start to finish and then a voiceover says that the official conclusion of the investigation states that the little girl had been abducted while she slept. SB then says that according to Amaral, the little girl died on May 3rd (and that the parents were involved in her disappearance), a version that many would like to see quashed.
She leads into the two documentaries, stating that they are unpublished in France: Amaral’s and the McCanns’ (with no further clarification as to their provenance) If I heard the phrase “4 years after,” correctly, it may be that the programme has been partly remade and the old footage added. It’s quite confusing.
Amaral footage: female voice commentating in French, apparently faithful in translation and intonation.
Return to the set with Amaral. Interview. (rough transcription from what I can remember, but there are certainly gaps)
L. You were taken off the investigation. Why does it bother you?
A. Before replying, I’d like to clarify one point. The parents were not innocent. That’s wrong. The case was closed, the parents could have opposed it but they preferred to use private detectives. It’s wrong to say that they were innocent.
It bothers me because I am telling the truth. The book represents 5 months of the investigation: the theory from the investigation. It’s the conclusion of the process in September 2007. Afterward, only one theory was retained, that of kidnapping. Other people were asked to keep quiet (myself and others)
L. I have experience of police investigations and sometimes the police have convictions and want to fit everything into that conviction. That’s the feeling I have here. No other theory seems to interest you.
A. That’s wrong. There is a beginning, a middle and an end to an investigation. The book ends in the middle of the investigation at a time when it was leaning towards kidnapping. But an investigation needs to run its course. Well, the investigation was prevented from concluding. The book is police work that some would like to be kept hidden.
B. I don’t understand why you attach so much importance to the fact that Kate did not shout from the balcony, took the long way round rather than the shorter route to warn the tapas, bearing in mind the dark night and the cold.
L. It’s a minor point but specialists say that the first reaction is to protect the remaining children. Kate left them alone (in these circumstances)
B. Why not have taken the little girl to the hospital (in the case of an accident)?
A. The investigation was half-way through. We were just beginning to see things. It should have run its course. There were perhaps other theories: a burglar who could have killed the child and taken her body elsewhere, for example….other tracks. (Note: the reply does no really relate to the question. There is a cut in the interview?)
L. OK, you say that the police officer who followed you gave up, lay down and that there was political pressure.
A. Your interpretation is correct.
L. (Explains the different roles of the two dogs) What were the English dogs looking for, a living or a dead person?
A They were looking for a body.
L. You say the child was killed falling from the sofa. Can a child really be killed falling 60 centimetres?
A It’s possible.
B What more could you have done?
A Look for the freezer, who had one. At that time I was dismissed and nobody looked in that direction.
L How could the parents have got rid of a body? They were under constant surveillance that evening.
A We should bear in mind that the police were informed well after the alert was raised. The alert doesn’t coincide with the “kidnapping,” any more than the witness statement from Tanner who says she saw the kidnapper at 9.30pm and didn’t alert the police. Why? In reality, when they parents gave the alert, all worries about transport (of the body) were taken care of.
W9 Part 2
AnnaEsse Today at 19:45
McCanns’s documentary. Return to the set.
L. 3 witnesses (those who saw a man watching the apartment) were heard by their detectives: did you rule out these witness statements or did you miss this?
A. Everybody near that busy road was interrogated. The police interrogated all the witnesses, even a musician who was sleeping in his car.
L. Did you find that man?
A. It was D Payne, the McCanns’ friend who was often with them and the witness statement of the young girl was not reckoned to be of any value. (Note: the one who saw the horrible spotty man, I assume)
Concerning the man carrying the child seen by Tanner: there is a huge problem. J Tanner produced a lot of discrepancies, going from great uncertainty at the beginning through certainty with the progression of successive statements.
The Smiths were 80% sure that it was Gerry McCann…The film (the McCanns’) speaks of two witnesses (with similar statements) but Smith talks about the child carried with her head on the shoulder and Tanner across the arms.
L. You are a well-known man in Portugal, a man of experience. Do you really think that this nice, middle-class English couple, are calculating and Machiavellian enough to have done this?
A. It’s not the problem posed by an individual who believes something. It’s a police investigation, within the context of police work
Someone goes on holiday in a foreign country and thinks the laws are the same. Concerning the law, in England abandoning children is severely punished…
L. (cutting Amaral off by bursting out laughing) Everybody does it!
A. (Raising his voice, sounding angry) Yes, it’s abandonment to leave children on their own like that….it’s non-punishable negligence in Portugal. In England it’s punishable and the tapas know it.
L. Is that why they concealed the body?
A. There could be other reasons: so that the state of the body would not be known. But there wasn’t time to explore the theories. Perhaps if the investigation had been completed they’d all have been done?
End of the interviews. S. Bonnec concludes by saying:
“Maddie’s parents did not wish to come and have their say.”
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That should be renamed "Interview with a Mad Person" - had almost forgotten how much garbage he used to come out with.
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Can I ask what it means by "Kate took the long way round" ??? If I understand the layout at the resort correctly there only is one direct route and that is the one she took which is out the little gate from the patio, down the road and through the reception to the tapas??
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Is there maybe a suggestion dudes that she went out the front door and out via the car park.
Can I ask what it means by "Kate took the long way round" ??? If I understand the layout at the resort correctly there only is one direct route and that is the one she took which is out the little gate from the patio, down the road and through the reception to the tapas??
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I am still waiting an answer about the claim that Kate went the long way round when she alerted that Maddie had gone. Could it be that this is yet more mischief making??
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I actually don't know what Amaral meant - there's so much in that interview that doesn't make any sense either way.
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Can I ask what it means by "Kate took the long way round" ??? If I understand the layout at the resort correctly there only is one direct route and that is the one she took which is out the little gate from the patio, down the road and through the reception to the tapas??
This is most certainly what is being referred to, a part in GA's documentary, see second paragraph, first one included for context
10.38 – It is just after 22 p.m. when Kate goes to her children’s bedroom using the shorter route, entering the apartment through the sliding window, and sees Madeleine is missing. She asserts that the bedroom’s window and shutters had been opened. She drops everything, leaves the twins, who continue sleeping, in a room with an open window, and heads for the Tapas bar, to raise the alarm.
11.04 – This is where part of Kate McCann’s behaviour on that night becomes incomprehensible. Instead of stopping right here, (he is standing at the balcony in the documentary when he is narrating this)and shouting out to the people who were at the restaurant, where her husband was, what she does is climb down these stairs, and walk a distance that is certainly twice as much as the distance from here to the restaurant, which is located approximately 50 metres from here, as the crow flies.
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No,i agree, burying children at the beach doesn't work. However concealing them in a disused building, municipal bin etc, hot tailing it back to the OC for the alarm, which Gerry himself was at about 10.13, does.
The Smiths sighting was about 5 minutes past 10, the person carrying the child was on his way to the beach then.
So if as you say it could have been Gerry and that he could get back to the OC by 10.13 that is almost 10 minutes after being seen by the Smiths.
What time would he have had to leave the OC and find Madeleine to do this procedure?
Remember the waiter said all nine people were sitting at the table when he took the order for dinner.
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Witness Statement
Ricardo Alexandre da Luz Oliveira
Date: 2007.09.07
Having already given a statement to this process, he confirms what is already on record, a copy of which is made available for this investigation
That he comes to the process as a witness and with the hope that he may help in the localisation of the child Madeleine Beth McCann, missing since the 3rd May, 2007, Praia da Luz, Lagos.
Questioned if he was the person who called the reception to tell them that a child had gone missing, he states that he cannot definitively remember if he did or not. He admits that he could have been the one to call.
Clarifies that on that night when he took the dinner orders, the entire group was seated. He remembers that there were nine adults? four men and five women. He did not notice any strange behaviour on their part.
Asked to describe the positions in which the group sat, he states that he can only recall that of the taller man (Russell), as he saw him leave the table, and the older woman, who remained seated after the rest of the group had left the table. Russell, he notes, was seated looking toward the front of the apartments and the older woman occupied a seat that was more or less facing away from the apartments. He is not able to describe the groups clothing that night.
He states that on that night, after having received the orders, he went into the bar. Immediately, he put two white wine and two red wine bottles, along with a bottle of water, on the table. He cannot be sure that he served more wine that night. The appetiser/starters were served by one of his colleagues. After 25 to 30 minutes, it was the witness who served the main dishes. He remembers that at this moment, the taller male, whom he now knows to be Russell, had left the table. He did not know where he had gone. The witness was asked to keep Russell?s meal warm. After a certain amount of time (he is not able to be exact), he was asked to serve Russell, who had returned to the table. He remembers that the rest of the group had practically finished their main courses. Asked if he remembers having seen all the elements of the group at this time, he cannot remember exactly. He also cannot state the length of time Russell was away from the table. The witness states that he had already served all the clients of the bar and for this reason, believes that Russell was away for some time.
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group? David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell's food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner.
David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
The witness went to them, he does not remember which one, and asked what was happening. One of them responded to the witness in English stating 'A GIRL IS MISSING?' that a child had gone missing. After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5 A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so) called the reception asking them to inform the police.
Questioned, he affirms that the group would normally consist of nine people (including Madeleines parents), and would normally dine around 20H30 and 20H40. They would not all arrive at once and before they all arrived, some would have cocktails. On the day of the disappearance, all were seated at the table between 20H35 and 20H45. He remembers them arriving as usual. Had they arrived late, this would have been noted by the staff. He does not remember if they were served cocktails. When they were all together, the group sat at the table, he took their orders, including the starters. As already mentioned, on this occasion, he would immediately take two white and two red bottles of wine and one bottle of water to the table. Their main courses would normally be ready 25 to 30 minutes after their order? a time they used to consume the starters. After starters, the group would normally spend about 15 minutes finishing the main course. Generally, during dinner, he would serve four bottles of wine (two white and two red), which the group completely consumed. On that day, he did not serve any more wine. It was also normal for certain members of the group to order dessert. After this, they would normally stay at the table until after 24H00 but would always leave before 00H00, the time when the bar closed. One or more of them, on another night, asked for an after-dinner drink. He remembers this clearly because they asked for Amareto and the bar did not stock it.
The witness served almond bitters to all. He remembers that this happened on Wednesday. He does not remember if they had more after-dinner drinks. He does remember that on Wednesday, certain elements of the group got up, with their after-dinner drinks, and headed to the bar and stayed there until about 00H00/00H10. This was the only night where the group elements were in the bar after closing. He also remembers that they would normally be the last clients to leave. Wednesday was the last night they were at the bar after dinner.
When questioned, he states that his colleague Joe is of British nationality and that he left at the end of August to go and live with his parents in England.
And nothing more was said.
Reads, ratifies, signs.
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The Smiths sighting was about 5 minutes past 10, the person carrying the child was on his way to the beach then.
So if as you say it could have been Gerry and that he could get back to the OC by 10.13 that is almost 10 minutes after being seen by the Smiths.
What time would he have had to leave the OC and find Madeleine to do this procedure?
Remember the waiter said all nine people were sitting at the table when he took the order for dinner.
Seems the food orders where taken not long after everyone had sat down.
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B What more could you have done?
A Look for the freezer, who had one. At that time I was dismissed and nobody looked in that direction.
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Seems the food orders where taken not long after everyone had sat down.
True and that night they were late all sitting down because of the Paynes - so probably didn't order until almost 9.00p.m. Gerry went off to check at 9.05 obviously before the meal arrived. It was around 9.20ish when he returned from chatting to Jez Wilkins. So he could not have started his first course until after then. He obviously was there long enough to get through all the courses as the only meal left half eaten on the table was Russells. Nine meals were ordered and nine meals were served.
Once again - no time for Gerry to have left the table to do anything - let alone go to the apartment, change his clothes and go off walking around PdL carrying a body in time to be seen by the Smiths at 10 oclock. Totally physically impossible IMO.
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True and that night they were late all sitting down because of the Paynes - so probably didn't order until almost 9.00p.m. Gerry went off to check at 9.05 obviously before the meal arrived. It was around 9.20ish when he returned from chatting to Jez Wilkins. So he could not have started his first course until after then. He obviously was there long enough to get through all the courses as the only meal left half eaten on the table was Russells. Nine meals were ordered and nine meals were served.
Once again - no time for Gerry to have left the table to do anything - let alone go to the apartment, change his clothes and go off walking around PdL carrying a body in time to be seen by the Smiths at 10 oclock. Totally physically impossible IMO.
Change his clothes ?
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Change his clothes ?
The waiter says all nine were sat at the table when he took their orders.
Then when the alert was raised by Kate he says all had finished their meals, where there had once been nine people at the table, only one remained.
Dianne Webster said in her statement that Kate McCann said 'She's gone Gerry'.
Gerry was there Faithfully. It couldn't have been Gerry the Smith's saw.
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Only one guest had his meal held back and that was Russell who was sitting with his daughter in their apartment.
Anyone who believes for a second that a waiter would not have noticed a missing guest who hadn't eaten his meal is sadly deluded.
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Change his clothes ?
As far as I know Gerry didn't go to dinner dressed in gold coloured trousers and a black long-sleeved jacket, looking more like a local than a tourist. So for him to be the man the Smiths saw - he would have had to get changed first -and then changed back again when he returned before the alarm was raised. All that takes time, and he is not Superman.
Don't you agree that if he had been wearing the same clothing as described by the Smiths, that once the description was made public someone who saw Gerry that night would have remembered. i.e. Jez Wilkins? the waiters and/or other people he spoke to at the Restaurant?
The whole idea that Gerry is the man the Smiths saw is just wishful thinking IMO.
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Martin Smith must feel a right plank for even thinking it.
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As far as I know Gerry didn't go to dinner dressed in gold coloured trousers and a black long-sleeved jacket, looking more like a local than a tourist. So for him to be the man the Smiths saw - he would have had to get changed first -and then changed back again when he returned before the alarm was raised. All that takes time, and he is not Superman.
Don't you agree that if he had been wearing the same clothing as described by the Smiths, that once the description was made public someone who saw Gerry that night would have remembered. i.e. Jez Wilkins? the waiters and/or other people he spoke to at the Restaurant?
The whole idea that Gerry is the man the Smiths saw is just wishful thinking IMO.
Was the description made 'public' as such ? Unless you are really interested in the case I doubt you'd have much more knowledge of the Smith sighting than what appeared in the newspapers. Besides it is certainly true that Gerry had a pair of trousers, buttons included, with him in PDL that matched the Smith's description.
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As far as I know Gerry didn't go to dinner dressed in gold coloured trousers and a black long-sleeved jacket, looking more like a local than a tourist. So for him to be the man the Smiths saw - he would have had to get changed first -and then changed back again when he returned before the alarm was raised. All that takes time, and he is not Superman.
Don't you agree that if he had been wearing the same clothing as described by the Smiths, that once the description was made public someone who saw Gerry that night would have remembered. i.e. Jez Wilkins? the waiters and/or other people he spoke to at the Restaurant?
The whole idea that Gerry is the man the Smiths saw is just wishful thinking IMO.
It simply doesn't work time wise, so unless Gerry had a time machine somewhere, he was NOT the person the Smiths' saw. Perhaps they can start speculating about that instead, where was the time machine hidden?
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Was the description made 'public' as such ? Unless you are really interested in the case I doubt you'd have much more knowledge of the Smith sighting than what appeared in the newspapers. Besides it is certainly true that Gerry had a pair of trousers, buttons included, with him in PDL that matched the Smith's description.
Anyone who had been at PdL and at that complex and especially anyone who had spoken to the McCanns would be following every inch of the case - so of course they would know about the description.
You would think if Gerry's trousers were of any significance - the police would have removed them. They knew about the gold coloured trousers and black longsleeved jacket from Jane Tanner. If Gerry had been wearing clothing that matched that description when they arrived they would have remembered - they are policeman FGS.
Give it up Faith. It wasn't Gerry who Martin Smith saw, and I'd bet my last penny that if you asked him that same question now - he would say he got it wrong. After all he never did say it was Gerry who was familiar, it was only the position that Gerry was carrying his son in - which brought back a memory- and out of the 3 Smith witnesses who gave statements, the other two didn't agree with him.
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Give it up Faith. It wasn't Gerry who Martin Smith saw
The trouble with believers is this systematic lack of distinction between believing and knowing. For believers doubt doesn't simply exist, it has no room nowhere.
The sceptics never say "it was Mr McCann whom Mr Smith met" or "the skin colour observed by Mr Smith mean the child was dead" or "they didn't call the police on time". They wonder, they don't hammer their views as if they were the reality the others refuse to face.
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Anyone who had been at PdL and at that complex and especially anyone who had spoken to the McCanns would be following every inch of the case - so of course they would know about the description.
You would think if Gerry's trousers were of any significance - the police would have removed them. They knew about the gold coloured trousers and black longsleeved jacket from Jane Tanner. If Gerry had been wearing clothing that matched that description when they arrived they would have remembered - they are policeman FGS.
Give it up Faith. It wasn't Gerry who Martin Smith saw, and I'd bet my last penny that if you asked him that same question now - he would say he got it wrong. After all he never did say it was Gerry who was familiar, it was only the position that Gerry was carrying his son in - which brought back a memory- and out of the 3 Smith witnesses who gave statements, the other two didn't agree with him.
I seem to remember there was something beige on the McCanns bed in the photographs in the files. Could they have been the trousers ? Also how easy would it have been to remove a jacket before the police arrived ?
As to the police not removing the trousers, didn't they bungle the investigation according to you ? Couldn't that have been just another bungle ?
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Oh good, so Gerry didn't even bother to get rid of the incriminating trousers even afterwards, he left them on the bed for the police to take pictures of. How very thoughtful of him.
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I seem to remember there was something beige on the McCanns bed in the photographs in the files.
Yes, there is but it doesn't look like pants. Anyhow I don't see why Mr McCann would have changed pants, since I don't think he digged. We only know that he had no kilt on!
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I seem to remember there was something beige on the McCanns bed in the photographs in the files. Could they have been the trousers ? Also how easy would it have been to remove a jacket before the police arrived ?
As to the police not removing the trousers, didn't they bungle the investigation according to you ? Couldn't that have been just another bungle ?
It was Amaral who referred to 'bungling' - because the photographer didn't take piccies of the clothes they were wearing. However that does indicate that he was aware that clothing could be relevant - and so I presume he asked questions about what people were wearing that night - and presumably was satisfied with the answers.
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I seem to remember there was something beige on the McCanns bed in the photographs in the files. Could they have been the trousers ? Also how easy would it have been to remove a jacket before the police arrived ?
As to the police not removing the trousers, didn't they bungle the investigation according to you ? Couldn't that have been just another bungle ?
Yes, what look like pyjama trousers. Also they have stripes on, if you zoom in!
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_22.jpg)
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This is most certainly what is being referred to, a part in GA's documentary, see second paragraph, first one included for context
10.38 – It is just after 22 p.m. when Kate goes to her children’s bedroom using the shorter route, entering the apartment through the sliding window, and sees Madeleine is missing. She asserts that the bedroom’s window and shutters had been opened. She drops everything, leaves the twins, who continue sleeping, in a room with an open window, and heads for the Tapas bar, to raise the alarm.
11.04 – This is where part of Kate McCann’s behaviour on that night becomes incomprehensible. Instead of stopping right here, (he is standing at the balcony in the documentary when he is narrating this)and shouting out to the people who were at the restaurant, where her husband was, what she does is climb down these stairs, and walk a distance that is certainly twice as much as the distance from here to the restaurant, which is located approximately 50 metres from here, as the crow flies.
Oh I see and thanks for that RedB. So Amaral calls the 'as the crow flies' route of 50mts directly across the pool the 'short route'. Yet another corruption in the translation process.
What Amaral is really saying is why did Kate not shout from the balcony instead of having to run the 70mts to the tapas bar?
My response to that would be that she wouldn't have been heard since the tapas group of seven were in full conversation with probably background music being played and all this within the confines of an enclosed area.
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Yes, there is but it doesn't look like pants. Anyhow I don't see why Mr McCann would have changed pants, since I don't think he digged. We only know that he had no kilt on!
You may be right Anne but perhaps he changed them precisely because he knew he'd been seen by the Smiths
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It was Amaral who referred to 'bungling' - because the photographer didn't take piccies of the clothes they were wearing. However that does indicate that he was aware that clothing could be relevant - and so I presume he asked questions about what people were wearing that night - and presumably was satisfied with the answers.
I can't see anyone being asked about what people were wearing in the files except Kate and Gerry themselves.
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You may be right Anne but perhaps he changed them precisely because he knew he'd been seen by the Smiths
Do the Smiths mention Gerry carrying a spade, at the same time?.
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Yes, what look like pyjama trousers. Also they have stripes on, if you zoom in!
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_22.jpg)
Absolute nonsense. The piece of clothing on the bed couldn't possibly be the same material as the pyjamas in the drawer.
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I for one think it is Goncao Amaral who has dug a huge hole in the sand but it is he whom the McCann's have buried in it. Right up go his neck. @)(++(*
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Absolute nonsense. The piece of clothing on the bed couldn't possibly be the same material as the pyjamas in the drawer.
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Did I say it was? the pictures are joined. Those are not trousers on the bed, though!
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If you zoom in on that picture you can clearly see the end of a sleeve with a cuff & the material looks soft, like thin fleece. Could also be some type of Pyjama leg or sweatpants. Do we really think Gerry wore track suit bottoms to dinner?
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I for one think it is Goncao Amaral who has dug a huge hole in the sand but it is he whom the McCann's have buried in it. Right up go his neck. @)(++(*
He couldn't have done the job better if he had tried. The McCanns didn't even have to dig a hole for the great coordinator as he dug that one for himself with Leonor. The sand merely fell in under its own weight.
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He couldn't have done the job better if he had tried. The McCanns didn't even have to dig a hole for the great coordinator as he dug that one for himself with Leonor. The sand merely fell in under its own weight.
Couldn't have put it better myself, John. 8@??)(
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He couldn't have done the job better if he had tried. The McCanns didn't even have to dig a hole for the great coordinator as he dug that one for himself with Leonor. The sand merely fell in under its own weight.
The only difference between Leonor & Johns, and Kate and Gerry cases, is, that Amaral didn't say they chopped their child up and fed to the pigs. Almost everything else is identical.
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You may be right Anne but perhaps he changed them precisely because he knew he'd been seen by the Smiths
If he was the one seen by the Smiths, I don't think he would have changed pants unless they were wet. I guess his state of mind was indescribable.
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The only difference between Leonor & Johns, and Kate and Gerry cases, is, that Amaral didn't say they chopped their child up and fed to the pigs. Almost everything else is identical.
Agreed. And in my opinion, if Kate and Gerry McCann had not been educated British professionals with access to good lawyers, then they too would have had a date with those steep, slippery stairs at Portimao cop-shop.
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Agreed. And in my opinion, if Kate and Gerry McCann had not been educated British professionals with access to good lawyers, then they too would have had a date with those steep, slippery stairs at Portimao cop-shop.
More than likely, Amaral hated Justine being with Kate, in those interviews.
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More than likely, Amaral hated Justine being with Kate, in those interviews.
I would imagine so. And when she didn't "crack" when confronted with "the evidence" he was probably fuming because he knew he wouldn't be able to get away with the same treatment that was meted out to Leonor Cipriano by the PJ.
So he tried to get back at them with his book - and line his own pockets in the process. Slightly off topic, have we heard any news about a date for the impending libel trial?
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Just makes you wonder how many other poor sods he stitched up in his career as Portugal's finest ?
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We know what Robert Murat thought about the PJ tactics & Amaral.
ROBERT MURAT: At one stage I was taken to an area where they wanted to fingerprint me and take photographs and all that kind of stuff. And I think they were trying to disorient,er, me because they moved me around from room to room, hallway to hallway, corridor to corridor and it seemed very choreographed calling out, “Well, take photographs of him” and you know, he’s, er, “We want to send a team to Poland.” It was kind of a choreographed situation.
RB: What, to intimidate you?
ROBERT MURAT: Yeah, I think so. And it did intimidate me at the time. Its now that I realise what was going on. I had five people rushing into a room and, erm, and standing behind me and it felt very very ‘Life on Mars’. It felt very, er you know, erm, just very pressured.
RB: He was questioned for nineteen hours before he was released. The next day he returned to collect his belongings and Robert Murat says he met Goncalo Amaral, the lead detective.
ROBERT MURAT: He basically told me it was a game of two halves and as the night before I hadn’t confessed, erm, then, he would get me on the second half and he just kind of turned his back on me. He didn’t… He just… It seemed he didn’t care about the truth. That was the, that's how I felt.
http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/transcript-of-panorama-madeleine-mccann/
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Just makes you wonder how many other poor sods he stitched up in his career as Portugal's finest ?
I shudder to think. How many poor, uneducated PT citizens were stitched up, beaten up?
To be fair, I have no doubt that some of the rank and file PJ did their very best to find Madeleine - unfortunately some of the bosses were corrupt. Amaral and Tavares de Almeida for example.
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Just makes you wonder how many other poor sods he stitched up in his career as Portugal's finest ?
Oh, he's tried John. Don't you ever wonder why Grade became his lawyer, after he had been Leonor's.
He told his lady friend he would plant drugs in her car, after the falling out!
The stronger one's wiped the floor with him.
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I shudder to think. How many poor, uneducated PT citizens were stitched up, beaten up?
To be fair, I have no doubt that some of the rank and file PJ did their very best to find Madeleine - unfortunately some of the bosses were corrupt. Amaral and Tavares de Almeida for example.
PAIVA too!
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We know what Robert Murat thought about the PJ tactics & Amaral.
ROBERT MURAT: At one stage I was taken to an area where they wanted to fingerprint me and take photographs and all that kind of stuff. And I think they were trying to disorient,er, me because they moved me around from room to room, hallway to hallway, corridor to corridor and it seemed very choreographed calling out, “Well, take photographs of him” and you know, he’s, er, “We want to send a team to Poland.” It was kind of a choreographed situation.
RB: What, to intimidate you?
ROBERT MURAT: Yeah, I think so. And it did intimidate me at the time. Its now that I realise what was going on. I had five people rushing into a room and, erm, and standing behind me and it felt very very ‘Life on Mars’. It felt very, er you know, erm, just very pressured.
RB: He was questioned for nineteen hours before he was released. The next day he returned to collect his belongings and Robert Murat says he met Goncalo Amaral, the lead detective.
ROBERT MURAT: He basically told me it was a game of two halves and as the night before I hadn’t confessed, erm, then, he would get me on the second half and he just kind of turned his back on me. He didn’t… He just… It seemed he didn’t care about the truth. That was the, thats how I felt.[/color]
http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/transcript-of-panorama-madeleine-mccann/
I'd forgotten about the Murat business - good post. A perfect illustration of what the "man of honour of courage" is really like.
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Oh, he's tried John. Don't you ever wonder why Grade became his lawyer, after he had been Leonor's.
He told his lady friend he would plant drugs in her car, after the falling out!
The stronger one's wiped the floor with him.
And then of course there was the little matter of the "Golden Bullets" business ....
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PAIVA too!
Yes, Paiva's conduct leaves plenty to be desired also!
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I'd forgotten about the Murat business - good post. A perfect illustration of what the "man of honour of courage" is really like.
Murat was on Channel 5 yesterday
Read a couple of posts from http://.....2.forumotion.co.uk/t3429-murat-breaks-cover-on-channel-5-news
Well well well! Robert Murat has just surfaced on Channel 5 news, in a short report about the case,.
He claims it is still hanging over his head, and wants to see it resolved.
Carlos Anjos was wheeled out, to declare that Portugal won't reopen it without new evidence. Yes, dear, we know that. Anyway, it's nothing to do with him now anyway, so he was no doubt protecting his hindquarters as usual.
Sandra Felguerias did a brief section, only saying that Portugal will never forget it.
Back to the reporter, who stated that the Yard have found 20 new suspects - tourists, workers and paedophiles.
Back to Murat, wanting it resolved.
No doubt a proper video will be online soon.
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Apologies to Sandra for having misunderstood her the first time - what she said was that the Portuguese will never forget the PJ naming the McCanns as suspects.....good job she is well aware of the lies that were told about DNA, isn't it?
No wonder Morais didn't want the world to know about this interview!
Looking at the C5 report again, you have to wonder what Anjos and co are so scared of, why they are so scared of a reopening? You'd think they would be delighted, because if they'd done the wonderful job that they pretend, then the whole world would be praising them, wouldn't it?
And, IMO, something is definitely bothering Robert Murat; he'd been forgotten about, till he appeared in the Express and now this.
BTW, PDL looked wonderful in the sun...
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Robert wants to find Madeleine probably as much as Kate and Gerry do but for wholly different reasons.
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Murat was on Channel 5 yesterday
Read a couple of posts from http://.....2.forumotion.co.uk/t3429-murat-breaks-cover-on-channel-5-news
Well well well! Robert Murat has just surfaced on Channel 5 news, in a short report about the case,.
He claims it is still hanging over his head, and wants to see it resolved.
Carlos Anjos was wheeled out, to declare that Portugal won't reopen it without new evidence. Yes, dear, we know that. Anyway, it's nothing to do with him now anyway, so he was no doubt protecting his hindquarters as usual.
Sandra Felguerias did a brief section, only saying that Portugal will never forget it.
Back to the reporter, who stated that the Yard have found 20 new suspects - tourists, workers and paedophiles.
Back to Murat, wanting it resolved.
No doubt a proper video will be online soon.
...
Apologies to Sandra for having misunderstood her the first time - what she said was that the Portuguese will never forget the PJ naming the McCanns as suspects.....good job she is well aware of the lies that were told about DNA, isn't it?
No wonder Morais didn't want the world to know about this interview!
Looking at the C5 report again, you have to wonder what Anjos and co are so scared of, why they are so scared of a reopening? You'd think they would be delighted, because if they'd done the wonderful job that they pretend, then the whole world would be praising them, wouldn't it?
And, IMO, something is definitely bothering Robert Murat; he'd been forgotten about, till he appeared in the Express and now this.
BTW, PDL looked wonderful in the sun...
Cheers, DCI. I watched the Murat interview on Channel 5 News - Interesting to see what Sandra F said about forgetting that the McCanns were ever made arguido. I think Sandra knows full well about the so-called "forensic evidence" that the PJ liked to think they had .....
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You can't blame Murat for being fed up. This total moron is back again with his hysterical idea about digging up Murat's driveway, now supported by another nutter!
Stephen D. Birch
3 hours ago via Mobile
Chelsea Hoffmann is the first of several main stream reporters to support the petition calling for the excavation of the Murat driveway and the exhuming of Madeleine Mc Canns remains. The story was launched 2 hours ago. We going global from Monday with the campaign.
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You can't blame Murat for being fed up. This total moron is back again with his hysterical idea about digging up Murat's driveway, now supported by another nutter!
Stephen D. Birch
3 hours ago via Mobile
Chelsea Hoffmann is the first of several main stream reporters to support the petition calling for the excavation of the Murat driveway and the exhuming of Madeleine Mc Canns remains. The story was launched 2 hours ago. We going global from Monday with the campaign.
Oh no, I thought that Birch had finally gone away after lingering like a bad smell for a while last summer. And as for referring to Chelsea Hoffmann as a "main stream reporter" ... that's a bit like calling Eddie "the Eagle" Edwards a top-class Olympic athlete....
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Has Hoffman changed her job description btw? Is she now a self appointed "reporter" instead of a self appointed "profiler"?
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Has Hoffman changed her job description btw? Is she now a self appointed "reporter" instead of a self appointed "profiler"?
Hoffmann is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike!
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Robert Murat will always have his reputation tainted by the stigma that he was somehow involved in Maddie's disappearance. The only way that will ever change is if she is found or if someone comes forward with the real story of what happened to her.
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@)(++(* @)(++(*
Did I say it was? the pictures are joined. Those are not trousers on the bed, though!
'Yes, what look like pyjama trousers. Also they have stripes on, if you zoom in!'
Are the above not your words ? In a pile how can you tell the difference between trousers and pyjama trousers ?
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We know what Robert Murat thought about the PJ tactics & Amaral.
ROBERT MURAT: At one stage I was taken to an area where they wanted to fingerprint me and take photographs and all that kind of stuff. And I think they were trying to disorient,er, me because they moved me around from room to room, hallway to hallway, corridor to corridor and it seemed very choreographed calling out, “Well, take photographs of him” and you know, he’s, er, “We want to send a team to Poland.” It was kind of a choreographed situation.
RB: What, to intimidate you?
ROBERT MURAT: Yeah, I think so. And it did intimidate me at the time. Its now that I realise what was going on. I had five people rushing into a room and, erm, and standing behind me and it felt very very ‘Life on Mars’. It felt very, er you know, erm, just very pressured.
RB: He was questioned for nineteen hours before he was released. The next day he returned to collect his belongings and Robert Murat says he met Goncalo Amaral, the lead detective.
ROBERT MURAT: He basically told me it was a game of two halves and as the night before I hadn’t confessed, erm, then, he would get me on the second half and he just kind of turned his back on me. He didn’t… He just… It seemed he didn’t care about the truth. That was the, that's how I felt.
http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/transcript-of-panorama-madeleine-mccann/
Tell me Mrs B if Murat had taken Madeleine and the tactics Amaral employed had persuaded him to confess and as a result she was found, wouldn't you be praising the way he investigated the case now ?
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I seem to remember there was something beige on the McCanns bed in the photographs in the files. Could they have been the trousers ? Also how easy would it have been to remove a jacket before the police arrived ?
As to the police not removing the trousers, didn't they bungle the investigation according to you ? Couldn't that have been just another bungle ?
'Yes, what look like pyjama trousers. Also they have stripes on, if you zoom in!'
Are the above not your words ? In a pile how can you tell the difference between trousers and pyjama trousers ?
You said, ON THE BED! Thats what I replied to. So did Mrs B.
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You said, ON THE BED! Thats what I replied to. So did Mrs B.
Where didn't I make it clear I was talking about the bed also.
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You said, ON THE BED! Thats what I replied to. So did Mrs B.
Are people blind? You can clearly see a sleeve with a cuff, what kind of trousers have those?
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Where didn't I make it clear I was talking about the bed also.
What do you think I was replying to, Jeez, give me strength!
It was you mentioned the draw 8-)(--)
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What do you think I was replying to, Jeez, give me strength!
It was you mentioned the draw 8-)(--)
By draw I assume you mean drawer. This is what I wrote :
'Absolute nonsense. The piece of clothing on the bed couldn't possibly be the same material as the pyjamas in the drawer.'
You mentioned stripes and I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that you were linking the trousers ON THE BED and the garments in the drawer together.
No need really for rudeness, or is that just your default position towards anyone who doesn't agree with you ?
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Tell me Mrs B if Murat had taken Madeleine and the tactics Amaral employed had persuaded him to confess and as a result she was found, wouldn't you be praising the way he investigated the case now ?
Don't kid yourself, we already know about his tactics, he wasn't interested in the truth, he was only interested in getting a confession from someone. Utterly lazy & incompetent approach to police work.
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Tell me Mrs B if Murat had taken Madeleine and the tactics Amaral employed had persuaded him to confess and as a result she was found, wouldn't you be praising the way he investigated the case now ?
Such practices are reminiscent of the fascists in a former time in Portugal but by the looks of it some remnants of this regime remain within the PJ hierarchy.
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Such practices are reminiscent of the fascists in a former time in Portugal but by the looks of it some remnants of this regime remain within the PJ hierarchy.
It is an unfortunate fact that when a former totalitarian state, be it fascist or communist, becomes a democracy, it is often the army and the police who remain entrenched in the old ways. Look at any of the former Soviet controlled countries.
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Don't kid yourself, we already know about his tactics, he wasn't interested in the truth, he was only interested in getting a confession from someone. Utterly lazy & incompetent approach to police work.
Agreed. Kate and Gerry McCann were fortunate to avoid "falling down the stairs" at the Portimao cop-shop.
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It is an unfortunate fact that when a former totalitarian state, be it fascist or communist, be cones a democracy, it is often the army and the police who remain entrenched in the old ways. Look at any of the former Soviet controlled countries.
Indeed so. This is very much my experience in Spain, even the town hall administrators in many of the ayuntamientos behave in such a manner.
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Agreed. Kate and Gerry McCann were fortunate to avoid "falling down the stairs" at the Portimao cop-shop.
What a pathetic and irrational post, they were protected by the english counsel and many others, silly. Not forgetting the worlds media, silly
edited for typos,have a nice day
8((()*/
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What a pathetic and irrational post, they were protected by the english counsel and many others, silly. Ot doegwtting the worlds media, silly
Pardon?
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Pardon?
I really don't like these spurious rejections of legitimate questions
I understand that it is a classic propaganda technique used to delegitimize an opponent in order to to avoid addressing the substance of the argument .... and I see that Redblossom is frequently made the ad hominem goal that obscures the opportunity for opponents to be heard respectfully in any debate
I don't like it at all
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Agreed. Kate and Gerry McCann were fortunate to avoid "falling down the stairs" at the Portimao cop-shop.
What a load of cobblers.
Do you really seriously believe the PJ would have done that ?
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I really don't like these spurious rejections of legitimate questions
I understand that it is a classic propaganda technique used to delegitimize an opponent in order to to avoid addressing the substance of the argument .... and I see that Redblossom is frequently made the ad hominem goal that obscures the opportunity for opponents to be heard respectfully in any debate
I don't like it at all
I will not entertain rude and abusive posters - end of chat.
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What a load of cobblers.
Do you really seriously believe the PJ would have done that ?
Go on then, I'll bite...
Yes I do seriously believe that. I bet the Ciprianos would too. And the young German tourist who was beaten up for the crime of not having a tram ticket. And the railway worker that Tavares de Almeida was recently convicted of battering. And maybe many more ...
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Go on then, I'll bite...
Yes I do seriously believe that. I bet the Ciprianos would too. And the young German tourist who was beaten up for the crime of not having a tram ticket. And the railway worker that Tavares de Almeida was recently convicted of battering. And maybe many more ...
There is no excuse for beating up suspects, unless of course you go down the Guantanamo Bay school of thought, which I don't.
Do you believe other police forces around the world haven't beaten suspects as well, including in the UK ?
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Go on then, I'll bite...
Yes I do seriously believe that. I bet the Ciprianos would too. And the young German tourist who was beaten up for the crime of not having a tram ticket. And the railway worker that Tavares de Almeida was recently convicted of battering. And maybe many more ...
Amaral's criminal conviction for his part in covering up the torture of a defenceless woman - is also a bit of a clue.
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There is no excuse for beating up suspects, unless of course you go down the Guantanamo Bay school of thought, which I don't.
Do you believe other police forces around the world haven't beaten suspects as well, including in the UK ?
Those attacks only delegitimize their authors, whatever or whoever is behind.
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I really don't like these spurious rejections of legitimate questions
I understand that it is a classic propaganda technique used to delegitimize an opponent in order to to avoid addressing the substance of the argument .... and I see that Redblossom is frequently made the ad hominem goal that obscures the opportunity for opponents to be heard respectfully in any debate
I don't like it at all
I'm not sure I understand what you were referring to.
Jazzy seems to have simply asked for clarification.
What does "Ot doegwtting the worlds media, silly" mean? I didn't understand it, either.
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What a pathetic and irrational post, they were protected by the english counsel and many others, silly. Not forgetting the worlds media, silly
edited for typos,have a nice day
8((()*/
And who was Leonor Cipriano protected by when she was hauled out of prison and interrogated without anyone present. Except for several PJ detectives and Amaral that is.
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And who was Leonor Cipriano protected by when she was hauled out of prison and interrogated without anyone present. Except for several PJ detectives and Amaral that is.
Two mistakes there Angelo. Cipriano's lawyer was present but Amaral wasn't. It really is rather dishonest of you propagate such easily disproved msinformation.
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Two mistakes there Angelo. Cipriano's lawyer was present but Amaral wasn't. It really is rather dishonest of you propagate such easily disproved msinformation.
Her lawyer wasn't in attendance when she was beaten up obviously. Leonor also said that she saw Amaral standing in the background.
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Her lawyer wasn't in attendance when she was beaten up obviously. Leonor also said that she saw Amaral standing in the background.
She has also been convicted for perjury I believe.
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Her lawyer wasn't in attendance when she was beaten up obviously. Leonor also said that she saw Amaral standing in the background.
Cipriano's lawyer was there when she gave her statement, seeming under no duress and displaying no injuries.
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Cipriano's lawyer was there when she gave her statement, seeming under no duress and displaying no injuries.
When she gave her statement? Was her lawyer there during the entire interrogation involving the alleged slippery-stair incident?
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I really don't like these spurious rejections of legitimate questions
I understand that it is a classic propaganda technique used to delegitimize an opponent in order to to avoid addressing the substance of the argument .... and I see that Redblossom is frequently made the ad hominem goal that obscures the opportunity for opponents to be heard respectfully in any debate
I don't like it at all
Ad hominem? A simple "pardon" ? Do you understand "Ot doegwtting the worlds media, silly" then?
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Again unfortunate Leonor Cipriano, tortured for the greatest satisfaction of the fierce opponents to the criminal PJ monsters !
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Ad hominem? A simple "pardon" ? Do you understand "Ot doegwtting the worlds media, silly" then?
Very well : Not forgetting the worlds media, silly
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Yes, I saw the edit when I scrolled back too.
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Very well : Not forgetting the worlds media, silly
Ahhhh. That may well be what she meant.
Dogwetting didn't seem to make sense....
ETA: yep, Blossom did correct the typos.
What a pathetic and irrational post, they were protected by the english counsel and many others, silly. Not forgetting the worlds media, silly
edited for typos,have a nice day
Well, at least that's clear now.
But what does the "english counsel" refer to? A British consul? Or some other entity?
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Anyway, where are we on the likelihood of Amaral's theory?
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When she gave her statement? Was her lawyer there during the entire interrogation involving the alleged slippery-stair incident?
She had already given her statement by the time her injuries allegedly happened so what would be the point of trturing her ?
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She had already given her statement by the time her injuries allegedly happened so what would be the point of trturing her ?
What was her original statement and when was that?
ETA: There is a Cipriano thread on here, before this thread goes too OT.
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Cipriano's lawyer was there when she gave her statement, seeming under no duress and displaying no injuries.
Which lawyer was that?
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What was her original statement and when was that?
ETA: There is a Cipriano thread on here, before this thread goes too OT.
Why havent you found it and quoted it so the discussion can go forward? You seem to have had no problem doing this in other discussions.
Why are you continually asking others for information on x y z instead of doing you own research? Ever heard of the phrase *do your own donkey work*?
Leonor Cipriano made a statement to the police in the presence of her lawyer. She was not being tortured at the time. This statement was given BEFORE the day she claimed she was tortured by the police to extract same statement.
Once this info got out its blatantly obvious she was kicked and punched byher fellow inmates, whichis a natural and common occurrence for people accused or crimes against children
If you think her daughter was abducted, what the f is this all about then
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/leonor-cipriano-changes-her-statement.html
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Ahhhh. That may well be what she meant.
Dogwetting didn't seem to make sense....
ETA: yep, Blossom did correct the typos.
What a pathetic and irrational post, they were protected by the english counsel and many others, silly. Not forgetting the worlds media, silly
edited for typos,have a nice day
Well, at least that's clear now.
But what does the "english counsel" refer to? A British consul? Or some other entity?
Not going to waste an evening pandering to your derailing and linguistic shenanigans...we all know what counsel means, apart from the legal side, it involves the government, just take the *u* out and it means consul, its not hard to read and interpret what is meant unless you dont want to, if you and others think, Kate and Gerry Mccann after taken into the PJ HQ for interrogation as arguidos with or without a lawyer were going to leave there in the glare of the media and all the members of the British establishment bruised head to foot you are sillier than I thought, or rather your friends saying theywere lucky it didnt happen, i think your iq is slightly higher than that, is it not?
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Why havent you found it and quoted it so the discussion can go forward? You seem to have had no problem doing this in other discussions.
Why are you continually asking others for information on x y z instead of doing you own research? Ever heard of the phrase *do your own donkey work*?
Leonor Cipriano made a statement to the police in the presence of her lawyer. She was not being tortured at the time. This statement was given BEFORE the day she claimed she was tortured by the police to extract same statement.
Once this info got out its blatantly obvious she was kicked and punched byher fellow inmates, whichis a natural and common occurrence for people accused or crimes against children
If you think her daughter was abducted, what the f is this all about then
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/01/leonor-cipriano-changes-her-statement.html
A quote from Morais! LOL! About as unbiased as getting advice from Chemical Ali....
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A quote from Morais! LOL! About as unbiased as getting advice from Chemical Ali....
Once you have debunked the journalistic source, linked to at the bottom of the article, only then will you have ANY right to pass such a stupid comment
capiche?
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A quote from Morais! LOL! About as unbiased as getting advice from Chemical Ali....
Does this ring any bells?
Research began «too late»
by José Manuel Oliveira 05 October 2004
It is widespread feeling among the population of the village of Figueira, in Portimão, that the authorities' investigations to try to locate the child missing since September 12 have principled 'too late'. And many have lost hope that the body of Joan gets to be found, or, as admit relatives of the girl, that, after all, alive.
After being alerted by a neighbor of the smaller elements of the GNR Portimão moved that night to Figueira, in order to take account of the occurrence and talk with the family of Joan.
The next day, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano (preventatively detained on suspicion of murder), formalized in GNR Registry daughter's disappearance. A day later, already evening, officers of the Criminal Investigation Brigade of that security force then began to interrogate inhabitants of the locality to help clarify what happened.
In the official version of GNR, started searching that night, with sniffer dogs throughout the village and neighboring rural areas.
But the fact is that only the next morning is that these operations were detected by population. No clues, no means to go further, the GNR transferred, after five days, the process for the Judiciary Police of Portimão. And next week, the case went to the PJ in Faro.
"The first few hours are important. If the investigation had started earlier, maybe Joan had already appeared. Dead or alive. We are dealing with a child eight years, which should have deserved greater concern of the authorities, and not a 16 year old, "observed DN to the father of a girl living in that village. The population of Figueira still eagerly waiting for an outcome for this mysterious case.
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Once you have debunked the journalistic source, linked to at the bottom of the article, only then will you have ANY right to pass such a stupid comment
capiche?
Dr Healy and Mr McCann weren't even arrested, never mind charged or convicted.
Capisce?
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Does this ring any bells?
Research began «too late»
by José Manuel Oliveira 05 October 2004
It is widespread feeling among the population of the village of Figueira, in Portimão, that the authorities' investigations to try to locate the child missing since September 12 have principled 'too late'. And many have lost hope that the body of Joan gets to be found, or, as admit relatives of the girl, that, after all, alive.
After being alerted by a neighbor of the smaller elements of the GNR Portimão moved that night to Figueira, in order to take account of the occurrence and talk with the family of Joan.
The next day, Joana's mother, Leonor Cipriano (preventatively detained on suspicion of murder), formalized in GNR Registry daughter's disappearance. A day later, already evening, officers of the Criminal Investigation Brigade of that security force then began to interrogate inhabitants of the locality to help clarify what happened.
In the official version of GNR, started searching that night, with sniffer dogs throughout the village and neighboring rural areas.
But the fact is that only the next morning is that these operations were detected by population. No clues, no means to go further, the GNR transferred, after five days, the process for the Judiciary Police of Portimão. And next week, the case went to the PJ in Faro.
"The first few hours are important. If the investigation had started earlier, maybe Joan had already appeared. Dead or alive. We are dealing with a child eight years, which should have deserved greater concern of the authorities, and not a 16 year old, "observed DN to the father of a girl living in that village. The population of Figueira still eagerly waiting for an outcome for this mysterious case.
Good stuff, DCI. 8((()*/
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Dr Healy and Mr McCann weren't even arrested, never mind charged or convicted.
Capisce?
the discussion was about leonor cipriano not the mcanns,and whether they were arrested or charged, did you debunk that article yet! Where its stated leonora changed her statement? and said her brother killed her child? If not why not? And why did you derail and change the subject? LooooL rachel granada
8)--))
did someone beat her up in 2009 to make her say her bruv did it? is joana still alive? her own mother says NO!!! and she was trying save her own skin, Sad, catch you later
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the discussion was about leonor cipriano not the mcanns,and whether they were arrested or charged, did you debunk that article yet! Where its stated leonora changed her statement? and said her brother killed her child? If not why not? And why did you derail and change the subject? LooooL rachel granada
8)--))
did someone beat her up in 2009 to make her say her bruv did it? is joana still alive? her own mother says NO!!! and she was trying save her own skin, Sad, catch you later
Was Gerry McCann the 4th member of the Bee Gees?
Sad, catch you later.
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Was Gerry McCann the 4th member of the Bee Gees?
Sad, catch you later.
Yes do come back and reinterpret that wierd post,LOL
8((()*/
Another Digression fron the point, discussion, issue at hand, still not surprised you have been vacuously UNABLE go answer ghe questions LOL, oh dear, YOU started it, YOUhave run away from it, ooops
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Yes do come back and reinterpret that wierd post,LOL
8((()*/
Another Digression fron the point, discussion, issue at hand, still not surprised you have been vacuously UNABLE go answer ghe questions LOL, oh dear, YOU started it, YOUhave run away from it, ooops
"Night Fever, Night Fever"....
I'm running away from nothing, love. Why do you think that they weren't even arrested, never mind charged with anything?
"It's just your jive talkin, tellin me lies..."
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Here's a little tune for Amaral which I think is quite apt....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi2yZTX9nD8
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"Night Fever, Night Fever"....
I'm running away from nothing, love. Why do you think that they weren't even arrested, never mind charged with anything?
"It's just your jive talkin, tellin me lies..."
oh, how sad, zzzz
They were never arrested because the PJ had no concrete evidence at the time thats all it means, nothing more, nothing less. They were lucky they were in Portugal, as call me Stu said, in Britain they would havebeen arrested for far less.
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oh, how sad, zzzz
They were never arrested because the PJ had no concrete evidence at the time thats all it means, nothing more, nothing less. They were lucky they were in Portugal, as call me Stu said, in Britain they would havebeen arrested for far less.
Absolutely, no concrete evidence. They were never arrested. End of story.
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Absolutely, no concrete evidence. They were never arrested. End of story.
yea, thats what I said, no *concrete* evidence but plenty of *circumstantial*, if they were involved they were damn lucky that the portuguese have more rigorous standards for arrest and charge, including number of dna markers 19/20 IIRC
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Jeez, there were no "19 out of 20 DNA markers" - there were 19 out of THIRTY-SEVEN from between 3-5 different people. If, after FIVE years since files were released, people can't even get that basic FACT straight, question is if they've read the files at all.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
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Jeez, there were no "19 out of 20 DNA markers" - there were 19 out of THIRTY-SEVEN from between 3-5 different people. If, after FIVE years since files were released, people can't even get that basic FACT straight, question is if they've read the files at all.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
It's like banging your head against a brick wall isn't it. How many times will we have to hear the 15/19 markers falsehood re-iterated over and over and over again.
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Actually, there were 15 alleles (not markers in the sense of marker locations) out of 37 in a soup of between 3-5 contributors on the same spot.
At each marker location, the forensic analysis will check for 2 alleles corresponding to the person's profile. In that tiny soup, you simply can't separate who contributed which peas, carrots, beans, celery or tomatoes to the overall speck of minestrone.
Edited to clarify.
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It's like banging your head against a brick wall isn't it. How many times will we have to hear the 15/19 markers falsehood re-iterated over and over and over again.
Forever. Groundhog Day.
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Actually, there were 15 alleles (not markers in the sense of marker locations) out of 37 in a soup of between 3-5 contributors on the same spot.
At each marker location, the forensic analysis will check for 2 alleles corresponding to the person's profile. In that tiny soup, you simply can't separate who contributed which peas, carrots, beans, celery or tomatoes to the overall speck of minestrone.
Edited to clarify.
Thanks Carana, it's just unbelievable that people keep spouting these falsehoods, do they actually LIKE to lie or are they just so fixated they cannot retain any information that doesn't agree with their pre-conceived idea that the parents are guilty.
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Thanks Carana, it's just unbelievable that people keep spouting these falsehoods, do they actually LIKE to lie or are they just so fixated they cannot retain any information that doesn't agree with their pre-conceived idea that the parents are guilty.
Hard to tell.
A possible explanation for the mindset may possibly lie here?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1914.0
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Yes, a good reminder of how easy that can happen. IIRC it's based on a true story too.
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Jeez, there were no "19 out of 20 DNA markers" - there were 19 out of THIRTY-SEVEN from between 3-5 different people. If, after FIVE years since files were released, people can't even get that basic FACT straight, question is if they've read the files at all.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
You need to go to Specsavers dear, no one said there was 19/20 markers, try rereading, the ref to 19/20 was in regard to the PORTUGUESE AUTHORITIES REQUIREMENTS, which is ALOT MORE than MOST COUNTRIES, which means the PT authorities are STRICTER on *evidence*, hopefully you GET it NOW
@)(++(*
and after you have managed to do that, i wont give you a clue, will let you work it out for yourself, im sure youre intelligent enough to reread, then reread that its a fact that 15 out of 19 of madeleines dna markers were found, this is a technical fact, whether it was mixed or not is another matter, the fact remains the FSS could NOT rule it out that they were hers
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Aww... too difficult for you to understand? Never mind, Amaral wasn't clever enough to get it either...
"Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
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Jeez, there were no "19 out of 20 DNA markers" - there were 19 out of THIRTY-SEVEN from between 3-5 different people. If, after FIVE years since files were released, people can't even get that basic FACT straight, question is if they've read the files at all.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
jeez, no one said there were 19/20 markers in the results, too difficult for you go understand? The number referred to was what the PT AUTHORITIES will accept as PROOF, specsavers still await you Mrs B, do go make your appointment pdq luv
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Jeez, anti McCann have been spreading lies about the 15 out of 19 DNA markers for ages so don't come & say nobody says it. It's as false now as was then. You implied that the McCann's were lucky not to have been charged in Portugal due to their stringent requirements, but that's a lie as NOBODY would get charged in Portugal or anywhere else based on 15 out of 37 alleles, as Carana correctly pointed out.
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You need to go to Specsavers dear, no one said there was 19/20 markers, try rereading, the ref to 19/20 was in regard to the PORTUGUESE AUTHORITIES REQUIREMENTS, which is ALOT MORE than MOST COUNTRIES, which means the PT authorities are STRICTER on *evidence*, hopefully you GET it NOW
@)(++(*
and after you have managed to do that, i wont give you a clue, will let you work it out for yourself, im sure youre intelligent enough to reread, then reread that its a fact that 15 out of 19 of madeleines dna markers were found, this is a technical fact, whether it was mixed or not is another matter, the fact remains the FSS could NOT rule it out that they were hers
People get so muddled over this.
The results showed 15 out of 37 alleles which may have belonged to her or to a combination of 3-5 people in that mix.
Even if there had been a full match to her profile, it still wouldn't mean anything: her belongings would have been in that car at some point.
If there had been any human post-mortem substances found, with a match to her profile, that would have been a different matter, but there weren't any.
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People get so muddled over this.
The results showed 15 out of 37 alleles which may have belonged to her or to a combination of 3-5 people in that mix.
Even if there had been a full match to her profile, it still wouldn't mean anything: her belongings would have been in that car at some point.
bloodied ones?
maybe...as for post mortem, why did the FSS not check or report back on rebelos urgent request for them to check hairs if they had death banding?
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bloodied ones?
maybe...as for post mortem, why did the FSS not check or report back on rebelos urgent request for them to check hairs if they had death banding?
15 out of 37 alleles, Red .... not 19/20. try getting your facts straight.
Bloodied ones? What ever are you going on about gal?
You are NOT insinuating that Madeleines blood was in the car, or in the apartment are you?
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Material tested was from a BLOOD DOGs findings ergo BLOOD do keep up, and stop lying i never said 19/20 was found, yawn and goodbye
8((()*/
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Material tested was from a BLOOD DOGs findings ergo BLOOD do keep up, and stop lying i never said 19/20 was found, yawn and goodbye
8((()*/
Post #230
Quote from: Jazzy on July 04, 2013, 05:39:06 AM
[quoye]Absolutely, no concrete evidence. They were never arrested. End of story.[/quote]
Redyea, thats what I said, no *concrete* evidence but plenty of *circumstantial*, if they were involved they were damn lucky that the portuguese have more rigorous standards for arrest and charge, including number of dna markers 19/20 IIRC
Heavy intimation about 19/20 markers. Only 19 out of 37 found. So you rate that as plenty of "circumstatial " evidence do you?
Wouldn't want you on a jury.
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Ref to 19/20 was about the PJ REQUIREMENTS, and nothing else, the PJ require MORE STRINGENT PROOF than, say, eg UK USA and others, do go SPECSAVERS, they await you.....zzzzzzz
8**8:/:
Byeeeeee
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19/20 markers put in such a way that the rapid reader thinks that is the number found ... as shown by Mrs B's response and Caranas response too
It is a kind of trickery Red. not nice at all
... but there you go! That's our Red
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19/20 markers put in such a way that the rapid reader thinks that is the number found ... as shown by Mrs B's response and Caranas response too
It is a kind of trickery Red. not nice at all
... but there you go! That's our Red
learn to read slower and comprehend then instead of having knee jerk accusatory reactions,my ref to 19/20 markers required was entirely to do with stringency of evidence, its only in your warped imagination and obviously wishful thnking that I was trying to trick anyone at all into thinking is was the number found, and AS IF anyone here at all is not au fait with the numbers.
Its a kind of skewing of what others say, putting words into their mouth, not nice at all, but thats our sadie. Do have a lovely day though.
8((()*/
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learn to read slower and comprehend then instead of having knee jerk accusatory reactions,my ref to 19/20 markers required was entirely to do with stringency of evidence, its only in your warped imagination and obviously wishful thnking that I was trying to trick anyone at all into thinking is was the number found, and AS IF anyone here at all is not au fait with the numbers.
Its a kind of skewing of what others say, putting words into their mouth, not nice at all, but thats our sadie. Do have a lovely day though.
8((()*/
Oh, I thought that I had responded to this.
Just to say that there were only about 4, maybe 5 pros, on at that time and 3 of us managed to misunderstand the wording, somehow. Both the other pros are extremely intelligent peeps