UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mrs. B on June 28, 2013, 12:05:19 PM
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The bins I've seen in PDL are the large trolley bin variety, whatever you throw in a bin ends up on TOP, clearly visible for the next person to see. In order to hide a body, even a child's' body, you'd have to actually jump into the bin yourself & cover it with the rubbish that is underneath. Apart from being time consuming, do we have anyone reporting seeing a man IN a bin in PDL around that time? No, didn't think so.
You then have the bin men coming around, they OPEN the bins in order to empty them. Were they blind too?
Then you have the refuse plant employees (unless refuse collection in Portugal - a subject I'm not very knowledgeable about - is so technically advanced that they are completely automated & require no staff), they are there to inspect the process & part of their job would be to sort out such things as hazardous material etc. They wouldn't have missed a dead body either.
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The bins I've seen in PDL are the large trolley bin variety, whatever you throw in a bin ends up on TOP, clearly visible for the next person to see. In order to hide a body, even a child's' body, you'd have to actually jump into the bin yourself & cover it with the rubbish that is underneath. Apart from being time consuming, do we have anyone reporting seeing a man IN a bin in PDL around that time? No, didn't think so.
You then have the bin men coming around, they OPEN the bins in order to empty them. Were they blind too?
Then you have the refuse plant employees (unless refuse collection in Portugal - a subject I'm not very knowledgeable about - is so technically advanced that they are completely automated & require no staff), they are there to inspect the process & part of their job would be to sort out such things as hazardous material etc. They wouldn't have missed a dead body either.
The British experts sent by the Channel 4 team certainly thought the bin theory was plausible.
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Why on earth would someone risk a jail sentence by abducting a child only to dump her in a trolley bin soon after...doesn't make any sense.
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They already had some underground bins in PDL then.
No, you don't have to jump inside of a bin !
For sanitary reasons the garbage is only deposited in big strong plastic bags. It's everybody's interest.
No, the bin doesn't have to be opened. It is placed on the truck and lifted, then a mechanism opens the lid. Nobody then can see what's inside.
I asked the camara municipal of Lagos' head whether they would notice the presence of a big dog, and he said no. He told me that once they heard what seemed to be a crying child. They didn't open the bin but called the police. It was a toy.
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Why on earth would someone risk a jail sentence by abducting a child only to dump her in a trolley bin soon after...doesn't make any sense.
It's not the abductor they're talking about, it's Gerry McCann who is supposed to have dumped his child unceremoniously in a conveniently placed rubbish bin, (after the Smith's had seen him carrying said dead child in his arms) then hotfooting it back to the Tapas bar, in time for Kate to raise the alarm.
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Why on earth would someone risk a jail sentence by abducting a child only to dump her in a trolley bin soon after...doesn't make any sense.
Imagine a man meeting Madeleine in the street (looking for dad and mum), imagine him trying to help her and Madeleine frightened and about to scream, imagine him afraid himself and suffocating her and killing her unintentionally. What does he do ? He's horrified, he knows about DNA, he takes the chance to have any evidence against him go astray for ever.
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It's not the abductor they're talking about, it's Gerry McCann who is supposed to have dumped his child unceremoniously in a conveniently placed rubbish bin, (after the Smith's had seen him carrying said dead child in his arms) then hotfooting it back to the Tapas bar, in time for Kate to raise the alarm.
Any parent who would do that to their flesh and blood would have to be a real monster in my opinion.
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For sanitation reasons? But OK to throw dead children in?
If that's the way you treat rubbish in Portugal, somebody should tell the EU, it's against environmental policy to let people throw hazardous material in bins (but people still do) which is why rubbish plants have staff.
The bins were the same size as we have here, Anne, so don't even go there, I have seen them. You'd have to jump in them to hide something, I know this very well, as my OH happened to drop his keys in one of those bins some years ago.
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Any parent who would do that to their flesh and blood would have to be a real monster in my opinion.
Yes, & does that tally in anyone's mind with people who were so desperate to have children they used IVF, which is a lengthy & emotionally draining experience for everyone involved?
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Imagine a man meeting Madeleine in the street (looking for dad and mum), imagine him trying to help her and Madeleine frightened and about to scream, imagine him afraid himself and suffocating her and killing her unintentionally. What does he do ? He's horrified, he knows about DNA, he takes the chance to have any evidence against him go astray for ever.
You might be able to imagine it, I can't ?8)@)-)
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Imagine a man meeting Madeleine in the street (looking for dad and mum), imagine him trying to help her and Madeleine frightened and about to scream, imagine him afraid himself and suffocating her and killing her unintentionally. What does he do ? He's horrified, he knows about DNA, he takes the chance to have any evidence against him go astray for ever.
I can't see that particular scenario playing out Anne. Madeleine was almost 4 when she disappeared and was street savy enough not to have wandered too far. Had she come out of the apartment onto the patio she would have undoubtedly been heard by someone. In addition, the patio door would have been open as children are not in the habit of closing doors behind them if in distress. Kate didn't find the patio door open even slightly so for me that rules out any possibility that Madeleine exited the apartment by her own volition.
This is but a mere part of the evidence which Stephen continually suggests doesn't exist. The evidence does exist but so many choose to ignore it.
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I can't see that particular scenario playing out Anne. Madeleine was almost 4 when she disappeared and was street savy enough not to have wandered too far. Had she come out of the apartment onto the patio she would have undoubtedly been heard by someone. In addition, the patio door would have been open as children are not in the habit of closing doors behind them if in distress. Kate didn't find the patio door open even slightly so for me that rules out any possibility that Madeleine exited the apartment by her own volition.
This is but a mere part of the evidence which Stephen continually suggests doesn't exist. The evidence does exist but so many choose to ignore it.
Sorry John, but your precepts and observations are based on km telling the truth. Something which you do not know to be a fact.
Secondly, you do not know whether Madeleine was street savvy, that is supposition, and as an ex-policeman I believe, you should know that.
As to the so called sightings they contradict each other and no amount of prevaricating will change that.
Finally, as an ex-policeman you will be fully aware of the use and reliability of dogs, so why are you ignoring the indications they gave ?
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For sanitation reasons? But OK to throw dead children in?
If that's the way you treat rubbish in Portugal, somebody should tell the EU, it's against environmental policy to let people throw hazardous material in bins (but people still do) which is why rubbish plants have staff.
The bins were the same size as we have here, Anne, so don't even go there, I have seen them. You'd have to jump in them to hide something, I know this very well, as my OH happened to drop his keys in one of those bins some years ago.
One more time ridiculing Portugal, Mrs B ! If "sanitary" isn't used in English, let's say
For reasons related to national health, the garbage is only deposited in big strong plastic bags. .
Selective recycle exists in Portugal... It is treated by private enterprises.
Of course if you drop your key in one of those big bins, you'll have to jump inside or, if you're smart, put the bin on its side.
Some people prefer to lose the key.
The experts only lamented the PJ didn't stop the truck. Why didn't they ?
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so desperate to have children they used IVF, which is a lengthy & emotionally draining experience for everyone involved?
Certainly, and though a child is a child, IVF babies are never taken for granted, they're a miracle. Especially the first born one.
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I can't see that particular scenario playing out Anne. Madeleine was almost 4 when she disappeared and was street savy enough not to have wandered too far. Had she come out of the apartment onto the patio she would have undoubtedly been heard by someone. In addition, the patio door would have been open as children are not in the habit of closing doors behind them if in distress. Kate didn't find the patio door open even slightly so for me that rules out any possibility that Madeleine exited the apartment by her own volition.
I agree with you, she would never have closed the door. But I don't think she would have left this way. I think she possibly left through the main door, easy to open from the inside. I agree also she didn't go far and I very much doubt she would have crossed the car park full of shadows that gave the creeps to Rachael.
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I'm not ridiculing Portugal, Anne. I just don't think you are you the official spokesperson for the Portuguese rubbish collection authority. I simply don't believe that rubbish collection in Portugal is so haphazardly & irresponsibly run as you describe. I'm not talking recycling, I'm talking hazardous refuse which all authorities check for.
But I have ways of checking that out with friends so never mind.
No, & you don't put full bins on the side & bins are generally quite FULL at 10 pm in holiday resorts.
I don't know why the PJ didn't stop the rubbish collection that night, could it be for the same reason they didn't stop vehicles crossing the border to Spain, or put checks at the airport until it was far too late?
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Sorry John, but your precepts and observations are based on km telling the truth. Something which you do not know to be a fact.
Secondly, you do not know whether Madeleine was street savvy, that is supposition, and as an ex-policeman I believe, you should know that.
As to the so called sightings they contradict each other and no amount of prevaricating will change that.
Finally, as an ex-policeman you will be fully aware of the use and reliability of dogs, so why are you ignoring the indications they gave ?
My observation would be that if it was a set-up then the McCanns would have locked the patio door. Evidence is that they didn't. Additionally if it was their intention to attribute the blame to a third person in a situation with an unlocked patio door then finding the door ajar or open would have been the ideal scenario. Again it wasn't.
The evidence is that Madeleine was an intelligent youngster. Consequently there is no reason to suspect she was anything less than street savvy.
The dog alerts are meaningless as the entire exercise was a charade. Grime himself admits that without positive forensic evidence the dogs might as well never have been there.
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For sanitation reasons? But OK to throw dead children in?
If that's the way you treat rubbish in Portugal, somebody should tell the EU, it's against environmental policy to let people throw hazardous material in bins (but people still do) which is why rubbish plants have staff.
The bins were the same size as we have here, Anne, so don't even go there, I have seen them. You'd have to jump in them to hide something, I know this very well, as my OH happened to drop his keys in one of those bins some years ago.
Didn't Amaral, throw his childrens dog, in a bin? Very caring father.
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I'm not ridiculing Portugal, Anne. I just don't think you are you the official spokesperson for the Portuguese rubbish collection authority. I simply don't believe that rubbish collection in Portugal is so haphazardly & irresponsibly run as you describe. I'm not talking recycling, I'm talking hazardous refuse which all authorities check for.
But I have ways of checking that out with friends so never mind.
No, & you don't put full bins on the side & bins are generally quite FULL at 10 pm in holiday resorts.
I don't know why the PJ didn't stop the rubbish collection that night, could it be for the same reason they didn't stop vehicles crossing the border to Spain, or put checks at the airport until it was far too late?
You seem to suggest that either I lied and every bin is checked or "rubbish collection in Portugal is haphazardly & irresponsibly run".
The experts didn't suggest that.
Do the workers in garbage collection, in the UK, inspect every bin before putting it on the truck ?
They don't do it in France. No time for that ! In Paris, the most visited place of the planet, the trucks pass early morning, too late to disturb people just coming back from bars etc., but not late enough to disturb people leaving for work. Everything is incinerated a few hours later (in Paris and île de France).
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No, I'm not saying you lied but doubt that you are that well informed about the actual process, unless of course you work in the field of refuse collection. It's probably best to ask someone who lives in the UK to answer questions about rubbish collection there. I'm quite confident they follow EU guidelines on hazardous waste though, it would be most costly & very irresponsible of them not to.
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The dog alerts are meaningless as the entire exercise was a charade. Grime himself admits that without positive forensic evidence the dogs might as well never have been there.
If you're right, John, then Prof Harrison is an irresponsible person. I confess that, reading his various reports and observations, I find it difficult to admit.
As they removed the rogatory interviews of the TP7 and the files about the UK paedophiles residents in the Algarve, they could remove the "meaningless" (to cite you !) reports on the dogs or found an explanation for the amazing alerts exclusive of the 5A.
If there was evidence the dogs were wrong, I would bet Madeleine found her fate not far from the flat, looking for dad and mum.
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Didn't Amaral, throw his childrens dog, in a bin? Very caring father.
That'd be classed as a public health risk & strictly against the law in most countries.
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If you're right, John, then Prof Harrison is an irresponsible person. I confess that, reading his various reports and observations, I find it difficult to admit.
As they removed the rogatory interviews of the TP7 and the files about the UK paedophiles residents in the Algarve, they could remove the "meaningless" (to cite you !) reports on the dogs or found an explanation for the amazing alerts exclusive of the 5A.
If there was evidence the dogs were wrong, I would bet Madeleine found her fate not far from the flat, looking for dad and mum.
That blows Amarals theory, that Madeliene fell from the sofa out then. Also the dogs findings in 5A @)(++(*
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I agree with you, she would never have closed the door. But I don't think she would have left this way. I think she possibly left through the main door, easy to open from the inside. I agree also she didn't go far and I very much doubt she would have crossed the car park full of shadows that gave the creeps to Rachael.
With respect I disagree Anne for the very simple reason is that a child will go to the light and not the dark. There was a light on in the lounge and there would have been light coming in the patio door. There would also be sound coming from that direction.
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No, I'm not saying you lied but doubt that you are that well informed about the actual process, unless of course you work in the field of refuse collection. It's probably best to ask someone who lives in the UK to answer questions about rubbish collection there. I'm quite confident they follow EU guidelines on hazardous waste though, it would be most costly & very irresponsible of them not to.
I lecture in a university and not about urban solid residues as they're called in Portuguese. I called the persons in charge in the municipality, Mrs B. I already knew what happened to bins they pick up on the street, I can see it from my balcony, but I didn't know what happened after and if there was some kind of selection.
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Ah, so YOU didn't know what happened with the rubbish after it was collected, but Gerry McCann is supposed to have known that it wouldn't be checked? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were arguing against your own theory here.
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Ah, so YOU didn't know what happened with the rubbish after it was collected, but Gerry McCann is supposed to have known that it wouldn't be checked? If I didn't know better, I'd think you were arguing against your own theory here.
Please, Mrs B, leave Mr McCann aside from this. This is only a possibility, not reality. Supposing X did x, doesn't make X do x. If... the remains were disposed of this way, whoever did it likely had no knowledge about the solid residues processing. Whoever did it took a chance, was there something to loose ?
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I cannot for one minute imagine Gerry McCann dumping Madeleine in a bin.
Firstly because it is heartless thing to do to your child.
Secondly because it was much too risky, the bins would be the first place people would look.
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I cannot for one minute imagine Gerry McCann dumping Madeleine in a bin.
Firstly because it is heartless thing to do to your child.
Secondly because it was much too risky, the bins would be the first place people would look.
Lace, whoever eventually did this wouldn't have done it to a child.
Your secondly is wrong : nobody looked ! Some did the following day, too late. The PJ even to one of the two landfills in the Algarve, too late.
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Lace, whoever eventually did this wouldn't have done it to a child.
Your secondly is wrong : nobody looked ! Some did the following day, too late. The PJ even to one of the two landfills in the Algarve, too late.
Crowds were on the beach searching Anne, are you telling me no one would have thought to look in the bins?
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People who were involved in the searches are on tv record as saying they looked in the bins, what that entailed is another matter....
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Crowds were on the beach searching Anne, are you telling me no one would have thought to look in the bins?
They were about 50/60 people searching an alive little girl, possibly harmed but alive. And not even the police thought of it. In the UK, it's different because disposal of in a bin happened, as the experts report.
The following day, yes, some people said they looked inside of bins.