UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on July 17, 2013, 11:35:12 PM
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From the PJ's Final Report :
' What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).'
Can we assume from the above that Rebelo did not believe the claims of the McCanns and their friends that David Payne visited the McCann's apartment at 6.30 ?
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One of the most bizarre item is the letter (24.10.2007 -- Volume XIII, Pages 3909-3915) of police officer Mike Marshall to his homologous Ricardo Paiva referring to written answers of Mr and Mrs Payne to questions, neither the questions nor the answers being in the files.
MM analyses these answers (likely RP is informed of them) :
-- (DP) "states he saw Madeleine for the last time at 17h in the McCann flat". Likely 19h (7pm) has to be read here instead of 17h. Mr and Mrs McCann were there. Mr Payne "doesn't explain or is able to explain why he was there, what for and for how long". Generally speaking Mr Payne tends to answer that he has already answered and doesn't give full answers to many questions.
-- (FP) "states she went to the McCann flat at 19h with Mrs McCann and that her husband (David or Gerald ?) arrived 10 minutes later." Mrs Payne tends also to reply vaguely mentioning she already answered.
Mike Marshall's letter is extraordinary. Apart from showing that police officers were really communicating, it brings a totally new element to the 3rd of May time line, denying Mr and Mrs Payne's unique statements to the PJ.
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Seems this is a subject the McCann supporters don't want to discusss.
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From the PJ's Final Report :
' What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).'
Can we assume from the above that Rebelo did not believe the claims of the McCanns and their friends that David Payne visited the McCann's apartment at 6.30 ?
That doesn't appear to correspond to the PT original.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4582.jpg)
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The time is wrong in the translation and DP somehow got left out.
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Seems this is a subject the McCann supporters don't want to discusss.
Where did you get the translation from, faithlilly?
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I can't answer for Faith, but the same "translation" appears here (towards the bottom):
Thanks to Kazlux 'astro', 'debk' and 'Joana Morais' for translation
17-Processos Volume XVII, P. 4526 to 4583
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
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Faith's OP
From the PJ's Final Report :
' What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).'
Can we assume from the above that Rebelo did not believe the claims of the McCanns and their friends that David Payne visited the McCann's apartment at 6.30 ?
The problem is that what was 18h45/19h00 in the original turned into 5:30 (17h30) in the English and the mention of DP disappeared.
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Faith's OP
From the PJ's Final Report :
' What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).'
Can we assume from the above that Rebelo did not believe the claims of the McCanns and their friends that David Payne visited the McCann's apartment at 6.30 ?
The problem is that what was 18h45/19h00 in the original turned into 5:30 (17h30) in the English and the mention of DP disappeared.
From the original DVD's Carana! You are correct
O estabelecimento de uma linha de tempo e de controlo efectivo dos
menores deixados sozinhos nos apartamentos, uma vez que, a crerse
que tal controlo seria tão apertado como as testemunhas e os
arguidos o descrevem, seria, pelo menos, muito difícil que se
encontrassem reunidas condições para a introdução de um raptor na
residência e posterior saída do mesmo, com a criança, mormente por
uma janela com escasso espaço. Acresce que o suposto raptor só
poderia passar, nessa janela, com a menor numa posição diferente
(na vertical) à que a testemunha JANE TANNER o visualizou (na
horizontal).
~ O que aconteceu no hiato temporal que mediou entre cerca das
18H45/19HOO - hora a que a MADELEINE foi vista pela última vez,
no seu apartamento, por pessoadiferente (DAVID PAYNE) dos seus
pais ou irmãos - e a hora a que é reportado o desaparecimento por
KATE HEALY - cerca das 22HOO - . •
Translation error? >@@(*&)
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The legal summary, has the correct version, Carana. So why was it altered, during translation, for the final report?
4 - What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. - the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings - and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy - at around 10 p.m.;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
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That doesn't appear to correspond to the PT original.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4582.jpg)
The portuguese document reproduced here is the interim report by the PJ and not the AT final report.
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When Rebelo was nominated he knew that the process was to be archived. That was the condition imposed to him and the reason they got rid of GA.
Nevertheless Rebelo attempted to follow the scheduled tasks that Amaral had left open, like the reconstruction and the retrieval of the forensic and official data required from UK, as we all know, unsuccessfully.
The fact that he abandoned Leicestershire even before the re-interviews were completed showed how he valued what was being done by those honorable policepersons :-)
Obviously he couldn't fight politics and the Lisbon Treaty spoke higher than finding the truth about the disappearance of a little british child.
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Faith was talking about the PJ final report.
As far as I'm aware that 30 June 2008 report was the final PJ one.
The legal summary states the same facts on this issue as the PJ original. It's the English translation that is wrong.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4583.jpg)
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Not everyone got the timings wrong!
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html
The Archiving of the Madeleine Process: Section E Joana Morais blogspot
By Astro
21 July 2009
E – About the interest of the reconstruction
4 – What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. – the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings – and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy – at around 10 p.m.;
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The quote in the OP appears in the Portuguese pdf Final PJ report, page 55, last paragraph
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MaddieMcCann_PJ.pdf
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The quote in the OP appears in the Portuguese pdf Final PJ report, page 55, last paragraph
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MaddieMcCann_PJ.pdf
Yes, thanks Red, we know that now. The problem is that there is a translation issue: it doesn't correspond to the original Portuguese.
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Yes, thanks Red, we know that now. The problem is that there is a translation issue: it doesn't correspond to the original Portuguese.
You obviously didnt read the link I gave, which IS in Portuguese and corresponds exactly to the quote in the OP
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Absolutely.
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Right, so the issue wasn't about translation after all, but would seem to be about two different versions of the final PJ report floating around.
The one I posted was the page just before the final one which was stamped and had handwritten numbers in the right-hand corner.
This other one (posted just now) isn't stamped, nor does it have numbers.
The PP report appears to have taken the details from the numbered/stamped version.
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The page I posted with this issue is p. 58 (4582 in the right-hand corner).
The next page (the final one is p. 59 (4593) and the text goes two-thirds down the page. And has stamps and signatures on it.
So... how come there seem to be two versions floating around. And the number of pages don't coincide.
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Hmmm, the unstamped version was probably a first draft, so small difference in number of pages is understandable if changes were made and / or layout, margins, etc were different. The translations used for the mccannpjfiles seem to be from the unstamped one, and it is from those translations the OP quote came from, as they appear on the mccannpjfiles
Eta
Obviously in the final version the PJ were being clearer about what they meant as regards not knowing what happened on that evening vis a vis DPs visit, as they thought there wasnt clarity about the length and time of that visit after having read all their statements, including the LP taking a statement from DP saying he was there at 7pm! Im guessing, though the original draft could well have stayed, as there wasnt clarity in others statements for the time period from 5.30, ie Oldfield saying Kate and kids were watching the tennis match at 6.30! when K and Gs said different.
Oh well
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Hmmm, the unstamped version was probably a first draft, so small difference in number of pages is understandable if changes were made and / or layout, margins, etc were different. The translations used for the mccannpjfiles seem to be from the unstamped one, and it is from those translations the OP quote came from, as they appear on the mccannpjfiles
Yes, I think the unstamped one must have been a draft, particularly as it was dated 20 June (as opposed to 30 June).
But I found these stamped pages on there as well:
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4582.jpg)
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4583.jpg)
It can't be just changing margins as - at least in that paragraph - the content had been modified.
What else had been modified?
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Another thing is that there is no watermark across the page on the unstamped one. I've no idea how that earlier version ended up on the Net.
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Another thing is that there is no watermark across the page on the unstamped one. I've no idea how that earlier version ended up on the Net.
It was obviously part of the DVD files. To see if anything else was modified just compare the two versions line by line. Modification before a final version does not mean anything sinister was behind it!
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It was obviously part of the DVD files. To see if anything else was modified just compare the two versions line by line. Modification before a final version does not mean anything sinister was behind it!
Was this draft part of the DVD or did it appear from somewhere else? The absence of a watermark seems a bit odd. I didn't suggest anything sinister was behind it.
There was clearly a modification - at least in that paragraph - which was the subject of the OP.
Which was:
From the PJ's Final Report :
' What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).'
Can we assume from the above that Rebelo did not believe the claims of the McCanns and their friends that David Payne visited the McCann's apartment at 6.30 ?
I don't think we can assume anything as the translation doesn't correspond to the final version.
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It might be related to the fact that the curious Paynes' UK written replies to questions aren't in the DVD.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
PAGE 47
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P17/17_VOLUME_XVIIa_Page_4637.jpg)
From the original DVD FINAL REPORT
4 - What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. - the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings - and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy - at around 10 p.m.;
From
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Thanks to Kazlux 'astro', 'debk' and 'Joana Morais' for translation
What happened during the time lapse between 5.30 p.m. (the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time by a person that differs from her parents or siblings) and the time at which the disappearance is reported by KATE HEALY (at around 10 p.m.).
It is obvious this has not been translated properly.
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no DCI do keep up, it is obvious a different report was being translated, and PROPERLY
obviously someone assumed the final report was the same as the original *draft* one and attached the jpeg images to the translation made for mccannpjfiles
ps we are talking about the final Pj report not the PPs legal summary whichis irrelevant here
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Why did they suppress Mrs and Mr Payne visit at 19h in the 5A, as stated by PO Mike Marshall?
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no DCI do keep up, it is obvious a different report was being translated, and PROPERLY
obviously someone assumed the final report was the same as the original *draft* one and attached the jpeg images to the translation
ps we are talking about the final Pj report not the PPs legal summary whichis irrelevant here
No, don't think so, Red.
The translation on Pamalam's site corresponds to the draft version. The Jpgs of the Pt original along the left seem to be the final version.
The pdf that you posted earlier (from the same site) seems to be the 20 June draft. I hadn't seen that version before you posted it.
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Why did they suppress Mrs and Mr Payne visit at 19h in the 5A, as stated by PO Mike Marshall?
I hope SY have looked into this anomily and what it means!
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@ DCI
There were two versions floating around. One appears to have been a leaked draft dating from 20 June.
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Why did they suppress Mrs and Mr Payne visit at 19h in the 5A, as stated by PO Mike Marshall?
Who suppressed what from whom?
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No, don't think so, Red.
The translation on Pamalam's site corresponds to the draft version. The Jpgs of the Pt original along the left seem to be the final version.
The pdf that you posted earlier (from the same site) seems to be the 20 June draft. I hadn't seen that version before you posted it.
the translation was made on the original draft, someone assumed it was the same document as the stamped final one, it looked like the duck walked like it quacked like it, whats the problem? At the end of the day is it such a big deal? A slight time difference about wondering what happened at the mccanns flat that evening?
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Who suppressed what from whom?
Don't know who, don't know why, but here is what
24.10.2007 -- Volume XIII, Pages 3909-3915
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the translation was made on the original draft, someone assumed it was the same document as the stamped final one, it looked like the duck walked like it quacked like it, whats the problem? At the end of the day is it such a big deal? A slight time difference about wondering what happened at the mccanns flat that evening?
I didn't start the thread...
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no DCI do keep up, it is obvious a different report was being translated, and PROPERLY
obviously someone assumed the final report was the same as the original *draft* one and attached the jpeg images to the translation made for mccannpjfiles
ps we are talking about the final Pj report not the PPs legal summary whichis irrelevant here
Don't need to keep up
FROM THE ORIGINAL DVD FINAL REPORT, PAGE 4582
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn315/itsonlyme_08/Gonc%20crap/AG.jpg)
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I didn't start the thread...
but you got involved in it
The op was asking a valid queation, based on the english translations, i dont expect her to read portuguese
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Don't need to keep up
FROM THE ORIGINAL DVD FINAL REPORT, PAGE 4582
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn315/itsonlyme_08/Gonc%20crap/AG.jpg)
We know all that, please read back as you have lost the plot
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but you got involved in it
The op was asking a valid queation, based on the english translations, i dont expect her to read portuguese
I was just trying to help answer the question that was asked.
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We know all that, please read back as you have lost the plot
DCI was just corroborating the version on the DVD.
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I was just trying to help answer the question that was asked.
Ok, so sorry, i forget how helpful you are on many threads, your knowledge of the files is very good, my apologies
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DCI was just corroborating the version on the DVD.
Yes but he hasnt cottoned on it seems, he didnt need to corroborate anything as it was dealt with before, you dont need to speak or apologise for him
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but you got involved in it
The op was asking a valid queation, based on the english translations, i dont expect her to read portuguese
So could you site the original from the DVD files and not McCannpjfiles?. Thats the only place that has different times to the original..
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Yes but he hasnt cottoned on it seems, he didnt need to corroborate anything as it was dealt with before, you dont need to speak or apologise for him
I wasn't. DCI corroborated the more recent document, which seemed more authentic, which was also on mccannpfiles.
Much of the draft may be correct, but some details may not be what was in the final version (thanks to the OP for pointing that out).
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Much of the draft may be correct, but some details may not be what was in the final version (thanks to the OP for pointing that out).
Is it related to the visit of Mr and Mrs Payne to the McCann flat at 19h on the 3rd ?
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So could you site the original from the DVD files and not McCannpjfiles?. Thats the only place that has different times to the original..
No i dont have the dvd sorry about that, but its obviously an official document of some sort,even if not stamped and kissed and signed off
Unless you want to start suspecting people of fabricating etc etc for no relevant reason, up to you though if it makes you happy, nite now