UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Carana on July 20, 2013, 06:10:36 PM
-
The distances that people quote to 5A from wherever seem somewhat elastic depending on people's perspective.
-
Yep, they seem all over the place
-
The distances that people quote to 5A from wherever seem somewhat elastic depending on people's perspective.
Well there are different distances
As the crow flies from the table to the patio doors
As the crow flies the distance from the table to the kids bedroom
The distance to walk from the table to the patio doors
The distance to walk from the table to the kids bedroom via the patio doors
The distance to walk from the table to the front door/kids bedroom
You can add a bit more when measuring from the BAR which IIRC was further away from the restaraunt
It depends what any one point anyone is making that make any of these relevant or not
-
From these screenshots, according to Google Earth, the distance from the restaurant to the gate of 5A - as the crow flies - was 50.82m.
The distance to walk there - via the unlocked patio door was 77.38m.
(http://i.imgur.com/gWJxXan.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/Hru0iky.jpg?1)
-
The walking distance from the restaurant going the long way (i.e., through the car park) would be: 130.45m
(http://s15.postimg.org/sx86na24b/di1.jpg)
-
What ever the distance was, is wasn't like being in the back garden.
-
I only went tried to double-check, yet again, due to the comment by Luz, in response to a post by Sadie
The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugual on 3 May 2007. / Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« on: Today at 01:29:54 AM »
I understand that in the Uk people can hardly differentiate the difference between yards and meters.
I'm fed up with reading that the restaurant was 50 m, 100 m.. away. Either you all live in dolls houses or your vision of distances has suffered a twist.
The back of the apartment to the restaurant is at the minimum 200 m. From that to the front door is more than 500 m.
"Within earshot" when you are in a noisy restaurant and your children are more than 500 m away inside an apartment, in a room whose window is in the opposite direction?
There is no lamp street close to the back stairs that lead to the sitting room; There is no deposition that the sitting room lights were on (which would be ridiculous when they argued, when trying to impinge that they left the patio doors open was because the children had a light sleep and opening the front door with the key could awake them - a poor excuse since G.McC said to have used the front door and the key); there is no document that attests that the curtains were attempted to be closed.
Geeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz
....you people are too creative, aren't you?
Luz later admitted that she had exaggerated, but her calculations still seem to be quite different to those of Google Earth:
In reply to me over the distance issue:
The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann from a holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugual on 3 May 2007. / Re: So how did the abductor enter and leave the apartment?
« on: Today at 11:56:40 AM »
I have already admitted I exaggerated in the distance between the Tapas and the front room (where the children were staying) at 5A. But it is not 77.83 m, it's 270m and there is a building with walls between the room and the patio with the pool and all the shrubs where the Tapas was located. Insisting that the children could be heard, even if they came to the back room that was at least 150 m away (through the reception and up the stairs), is throwing sand into everyone's eyes. But that is your appointed job, I guess.
Your Lady Kate didn't feel she could be heard from the balcony of the back room to the Tapas, what makes you think little children in distress could?!
-
What ever the distance was, is wasn't like being in the back garden.
If your point is that they wouldn't have heard a child crying or being taken via the carpark side, I'd agree. A baby listening service doing the rounds wouldn't have necessarily immediately heard a child, either. Nor would parents necessarily have done in the garden of their own house, nor even necessarily from a downstairs room if they had been having dinner with friends with music on.
I don't see the need to make it appear as if they were 500m away. This wasn't the case.
-
Well leaving aside you having a go at Luz, and seeing as she is not here to answer for herself, I must admit that distance of 50 metres from the table to the patio doors seems a little short considering what lies in between, but that is just by sight. Perhaps someone will actually go and measure it once and for all?
Are google earth measurements 100% accurate?
As I said before, the issue of distance depends entirely on why it matters.
It is clear, the kids were not within ear and eyeshot, and on top of that were left in an insecure flat with no one looking after them. How worse can it be? However anyone spins it.
-
Well leaving aside you having a go at Luz, and seeing as she is not here to answer for herself, I must admit that distance of 50 metres from the table to the patio doors seems a little short considering what lies in between, but that is just by sight. Perhaps someone will actually go and measure it once and for all?
Are google earth measurements 100% accurate?
As I said before, the issue of distance depends entirely on why it matters.
It is clear, the kids were not within ear and eyeshot, and on top of that were left in an insecure flat with no one looking after them. How worse can it be? However anyone spins it.
Aprox. 50 metres Red. Tapas restaurant Crow flies to Patio door ... my measurement on GE. (useful for visuals and audios)
My back garden was 50 metres exactly. We never had any problem in seeing or hearing our kids when we were chatting over the back fence ... and we lived on a main busy ring road, not silent like PdL
Believe me or not. That is up to you, but it is a fact.
a mother hears her own childs cry above all else.
Btw, I have a complete understanding of metres and yards
-
a mother hears her own childs cry above all else.
obviously she didnt on the wednesday night, unless kate was putting words into her childs mouth about her crying and no one coming
>@@(*&)
-
obviously she didnt on the wednesday night, unless kate was putting words into her childs mouth about her crying and no one coming
>@@(*&)
We have no proof that it was Madeleine. Just your wishful thinking.
For me to hear my children, they had to come to the window or door, of course. Madeleine would be capable of any of that.
-
Dead link
Sorry, I'd just corrected it.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077600/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%209
-
We have no proof that it was Madeleine. Just your wishful thinking.
For me to hear my children, they had to come to the window or door, of course. Madeleine would be capable of any of that.
Oh dear Sadie, are you confusing mrs fenns statement about a child crying on tuesday night with kate mccanns? About madeleine saying she was crying? On wednesday night? No wishful thinking, on my part, its KMs documented (and Gerrys) words
-
Sorry, I'd just corrected it.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077600/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%209
Quite an irrelevant article here as it deals with a single specific claim with some group
What about Philomena Mccann saying on tv they had a direct line of sight to the kids? That was untrue
>@@(*&)
And who would keep their eyes peeled on the back of their flat all during dinner, purleeese, if they were that worried, they wouldnt have left them!!
Philomna McCann: The childcare facilities: you're leaving people with other folk that you don't know. Gerry and Kate are in a clear line of sight of their kids. They regularly go across to check; maybe if the kids have been disturbed or crying or anything and if they'd come out the front they would have seen them
See video entitled its abhorrent to suggest bad parenting
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id250.html
-
Quite an irrelevant article here as it deals with a single specific claim with some group
What about Philomena Mccann saying on tv they had a direct line of sight to the kids? That was untrue
>@@(*&)
Philomna McCann: The childcare facilities: you're leaving people with other folk that you don't know. Gerry and Kate are in a clear line of sight of their kids. They regularly go across to check; maybe if the kids have been disturbed or crying or anything and if they'd come out the front they would have seen them
See video entitled its abhorrent to suggest bad parenting
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id250.html
Philomena wasn't there.
The point was the Google Earth images.
-
Philomena wasn't there.
The point was the Google Earth images.
Of course it was bad parenting.
That's why Madeleine 'disappeared'.
As to Philomena, the less said the better.
-
Philomena wasn't there.
The point was the Google Earth images.
Yes she wasnt, so why did she tell untruths? Who told her them? a bit like her saying cid didnt turn up for five hours, clearly a terrible exageration designed solely to malign the police based on lies
Google earth? These are just measurements, they are tools to be used, so what point are you making?
eta link
PM: Absolutely. It was hours before the local police turned up and we're talking two bobbies that totally downplayed the incident and said that Maddie had maybe just wandered off, and that... but what 3-year-old would wander off for hours on their own? It took the CID 5 hours before they responded to come and even then it was, kind of, shrug of the shoulders. There's been no feedback from the Portuguese police to Gerry. The stress levels have been through the roof because of this, it's just been shocking.
two total lies
Gnr turned up very quick, about 15 mins
Pj turned up an hour after notification or so
See video aunt criticises portugues police LOL
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id250.html
Now tell me there wasnt an agenda to rubbish the police from day one! The brass neck! When THEY were the ones who failed in their duty of care for their babies, and also put them at risk which they did, couldnt make it up,really you couldnt.
-
Of course it was bad parenting.
That's why Madeleine 'disappeared'.
As to Philomena, the less said the better.
The topic concerns distances to 5A.
Access to 5A was 77 metres walking distance away. Feel free to add 10 metres to walk through the living room.
Saying that they were 500m away is a total exaggeration. As is even stating 270 or 200 metres.
And before long, there will be a new McSpielberg exclusive spouting that as a new trooo fact.
-
The topic concerns distances to 5A.
Access to 5A was 77 metres walking distance away. Feel free to add 10 metres to walk through the living room.
Saying that they were 500m away is a total exaggeration. As is even stating 270 or 200 metres.
And before long, there will be a new McSpielberg exclusive spouting that as a new trooo fact.
The key fact here, regardless of distance is that there was no one guarding the children.
If Madeleine had an accident as I believe, the random checks, not all of which included looking at the children were insufficient .
I'm well aware of then distance involved, but the bottom line remains the same.
The children weren't safe.
-
The topic concerns distances to 5A.
Access to 5A was 77 metres walking distance away. Feel free to add 10 metres to walk through the living room.
Saying that they were 500m away is a total exaggeration. As is even stating 270 or 200 metres.
And before long, there will be a new McSpielberg exclusive spouting that as a new trooo fact.
No the topic is not neutral, it concerns ONE posters posts about distances and which parts she meant as a joke and which she thought were true or didnt
Hardly indicative of what dozens or more people are going to think, let alone one posters posts becoming what you call a mcspielberg and troooo fact
>@@(*&)
Oh and btw this topic DOES concern philomena too, its a given, both with distance, eyesight and other lies
-
Herewith new images which show the distances.
(http://i.imgur.com/gWJxXan.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/Hru0iky.jpg?1)
-
If you want to discuss Phil's statements, feel free to start another thread.
This one was to establish distances (the title is a hint)
And it started as a result of this recent assertion from Luz (even though she has slightly backtracked):
I understand that in the Uk people can hardly differentiate the difference between yards and meters.
I'm fed up with reading that the restaurant was 50 m, 100 m.. away. Either you all live in dolls houses or your vision of distances has suffered a twist.
The back of the apartment to the restaurant is at the minimum 200 m. From that to the front door is more than 500 m.
Topics go off topic, but with related stuff, i answered you before anyway
8((()*/
-
Thanks for extracting the first two from the link, Sadie.
-
Yep, I agree. Without any particular reason to squint at that window in the twilight shadows, I'd have just walked straight across diagonally with my eyes on the main entrance.
The way they walked to their apartments
In lilac colour:
This is actually the likely route bundleman took with Madeleine, altho there could well have been an over the pathway-wall pass over from the lifter to Bundleman (imo). The same route in and out across the car park and along the walled path so far, would be walked by all the Tapas group. With everyone, but Gerry, branching off at the lobby to go to their flats.
The lobby was well lit too.
The front of 5A and the front door especially were in darkness.
It is normal for anyone walking at night to look towards any light in the direction they were going and to watch the ground for irregularities.
(http://i.imgur.com/xS5RLPG.jpg?1)
Thankyou John for the image
Someone walking IN at the car park entrance POINT I and after dark would have his/her attention on the place where all the pathways radiated from POINT P. That is in the middle of the block and that is where they had to go to take their respective paths behind the wall.
IIRC POINT P was lit. pls corredt me if I am wrong on the lit bit.
Additionally the lobby would be lit, so the eye might stray towards that, but not at all towards the front door (out of sight all the way) or the front bedroom window. All the way from entering the car park at POINT I, both the bedroom window and the front door were at right angles, or worse, to the line of vision. Remember the walker looks towards the direction he is going after dark or towards light.
POINT W is an approximation to the position of Madeleines window.
The further the wallker came in, the more acute the the angle of vision to the window and front door (Out of sight competely) until as said by another poster above, the window was virtually behind the walker. Upon entering the pathway, the building curved and the window would be out of view beyond the curve.
So once again no vision of the window or door
Immediately the lobby began, each person would go into that lobby by the shortest route possible and peel off to the front door of their own flat. No vision of any windows there! [see pink lines for a rough idea of how they peeled off]
So no-one would notice the window blinds when coming in. If bundleman had been moving they might notice that however.
With the return journey, again the window would, at best, be at right angles to their vision and they would be looking towards the street lights shining thru the entrance to the car park. That's what people do after dark. They look at the light and look in the direction they are walking and at the ground.
So nobody would notice the window blinds if lifted when on the way out either.
It is extremely unlikely that anyone would notice blinds being disarranged in the circumstances
And nobody passed by the front door, it was a dead end and recessed away in darkness, completely out of view, so no-one could see the front door for the entire journey, in or out.
Bundleman / the lifter went in and out via the front door. I would lay my bottom dollar on it.
A two minute job including lifting the shutters and opening the window, especially if practiced beforehand.
I have just done a similar manouever in my own home in under a minute
-
The tapas bar is only 50 metres away from the patio of apartment 5a but it might as well be 50 miles away as the children could never have been heard through a closed patio door.
-
The tapas bar is only 50 metres away from the patio of apartment 5a but it might as well be 50 miles away as the children could never have been heard through a closed patio door.
Quite, and especially from a raucous environment!
-
The tapas bar is only 50 metres away from the patio of apartment 5a but it might as well be 50 miles away as the children could never have been heard through a closed patio door.
Proven without reconstruction thanks to late Mrs Fenn : 75 minutes crying were likely ignored because not heard.
-
The distances that people quote to 5A from wherever seem somewhat elastic depending on people's perspective.
8@??)(
-
Quite, and especially from a raucous environment!
I don't believe it was a disorderly environment Redblossom but noisy...yes.
-
John
Thank you for the "code" for the image. Why has it become truncated in the actual post itself? It was not truncated but full size when I posted it.
Also why have all the images showing GE distances become truncated, with the actual distances cut off? THe distances are the important part and they showed originally, before the change.
What can have caused that?
Similarly image interference happened in pfa2, ... and in J.A.T.Y.K. images wouldn't open after the page turned over. Also a full stop was somehow added to the video and website addresses so that they didn't work. I soon discovered that tho.
Please can they be rectified. The GE images, especially, are no use without the distances. The distances are why they are posted.
PS When I roll back here, below, the images seem ok, yet I have looked at them several times today and they were truncated. I have just returned to the thread and tyhey are truncated. Why the difference on the thread to the previews here?
If the images are wider than 800 pixels they will appear truncated with a slider bar at the bottom. When I post an image I make sure that it is just under 800 pixel wide so as to avoid this. I will resize the images you posted if that helps.
-
If the images are wider than 800 pixels they will appear truncated with a slider bar at the bottom. When I post an image I make sure that it is just under 800 pixel wide so as to avoid this. I will resize the images you posted if that helps.
Please John. I would be greatful, especially the distance ones. Thanks
-
(http://i.imgur.com/xS5RLPG.jpg?1)
Thank you, John
-
No the topic is not neutral, it concerns ONE posters posts about distances and which parts she meant as a joke and which she thought were true or didnt
Hardly indicative of what dozens or more people are going to think, let alone one posters posts becoming what you call a mcspielberg and troooo fact
>@@(*&)
Oh and btw this topic DOES concern philomena too, its a given, both with distance, eyesight and other lies
GEarth doesn't lie Red. a little over 50 metres is as accuarate as you will get.
THe evidence is there for you to see with your very own eyes
-
Aprox. 50 metres Red. Tapas restaurant Crow flies to Patio door ... my measurement on GE. (useful for visuals and audios)
My back garden was 50 metres exactly. We never had any problem in seeing or hearing our kids when we were chatting over the back fence ... and we lived on a main busy ring road, not silent like PdL
Believe me or not. That is up to you, but it is a fact.
a mother hears her own childs cry above all else.
Btw, I have a complete understanding of metres and yards
Hello...
You must be wonderwoman.
I was at the Tapas and I couldn't hear (much less see) even the entrance to the resort or the outside, in the streets...
But Ms Healy must have known what happened since as soon as she reached the table at the Tapas she cried: they have taken her! - who are they? Why has she refused to explain why she used that expression?
Nevertheless, I reaffirm that the neglect is only the excuse for the disappearance. In my opinion a very dirty crime was committed. The child's body was discarded not to be found because it could reveal unpleasant findings to whoever, and that's why after less than 24 hours, which is unheard of, the McCann had consular and even the Ambassador fidgeting into the investigation
If you find it essential to measure the distances, and if you, after all this time and all the information you've gotten hold of, believe it matters, I'll go personally with a tape measure - I'm about 40 km away from the place. Auntie would love to have me and I may be able to squeeze more info from her employees that went on searching for the kiddie for more than a week, unlike her beloving parents.
-
But Ms Healy must have known what happened since as soon as she reached the table at the Tapas she cried: they have taken her! - who are they? Why has she refused to explain why she used that expression?
If you are referring to the use of the word 'they' - then that is a common expression we use when we don't know the sex or the name of a person.
Example:
Daughter: Mum there's someone at the door for you.
Mum: Who is it?
Daughter: I don't know.
Mum: Well, tell them I'm too busy to see them now - so they will have to come back another time.
----------
There is nothing sinister about it at all. We all do it - but we just don't notice that we're doing it.
-
Please keep to thread topic. TY