UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on June 09, 2013, 02:48:06 PM
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The two GNR officers who were tasked to the Ocean Club Garden premises on the night that Madeleine disappeared were already in attendance at the scene of a reported robbery some 15-20 minutes away.
We know that they initially did not treat the call to go to Praia da Luz with any real urgency. After all, children go missing all the time but seldom are abducted. Their commander however continued to receive calls from the resort and radioed them to attend urgently. It was only after having received this further call that they made swift passage to PdL with siren blaring.
When they arrived at the resort and met with Gerry McCann they were still operating on the basis that Madeleine had absconded and set about searching for her around the general vicinity.
The search was fruitless so the GNR commander who had by now also arrived at the resort requested that the PJ or criminal police be tasked to attend as a crime was suspected. They arrived just after midnight.
It was only after initial searches had been carried out that the GNR secured the site if the alleged abduction is apartment 5a, which by then had been traipsed through by many people.
Question is, could the police had done it any better?
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By the time the GNR had arrived the world and is wife had trampled over potentially vital evidence within the apartment , Gerry, Dianne et al had destroyed potentially vital evidence on the windows and shutters. That the forensics operatives got anything worth testing is a miracle in itself.
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By the time the GNR had arrived the world and is wife had trampled over potentially vital evidence within the apartment , Gerry, Dianne et al had destroyed potentially vital evidence on the windows and shutters. That the forensics operatives got anything worth testing is a miracle in itself.
You are bringing hindsight into the equation which the McCanns did not have the benefit of at that time. No-one could have any idea that Madeleine was not going to be found in the first few minutes.. It was not a crime scene until they had established that Madeleine was not in the apartment or in the surrounding area. I have never heard of any parent who's child went missing, calling the police before they had searched everywhere themselves -which is the normal reaction. To suggest the McCanns and their friends were wrong to do this is unfair
The first thing one of the GNR officers did when he arrived was to search the whole apartment himself. Now he should have known better and would have been better employed ushering people out and securing the scene. As a police officer that was HIS job, and not the responsiblity of the parents.
What the McCanns did was perfectly understandable and is what any parents would have done. What the GNR officers did was pure incompetence.
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You are bringing hindsight into the equation which the McCanns did not have the benefit of at that time. No-one could have any idea that Madeleine was not going to be found in the first few minutes.. It was not a crime scene until they had established that Madeleine was not in the apartment or in the surrounding area. I have never heard of any parent who's child went missing, calling the police before they had searched everywhere themselves -which is the normal reaction. To suggest the McCanns and their friends were wrong to do this is unfair
The first thing one of the GNR officers did when he arrived was to search the whole apartment himself. Now he should have known better and would have been better employed ushering people out and securing the scene. As a police officer that was HIS job, and not the responsiblity of the parents.
What the McCanns did was perfectly understandable and is what any parents would have done. What the GNR officers did was pure incompetence.
Understandable to trample the apartment ?
Understandable to leave 3 children alone ?
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This topic is a spin off from another thread.
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By the time the GNR had arrived the world and is wife had trampled over potentially vital evidence within the apartment , Gerry, Dianne et al had destroyed potentially vital evidence on the windows and shutters. That the forensics operatives got anything worth testing is a miracle in itself.
In your haste to admonish the McCanns for this you are forgetting two important factors.
It is absolutely normal in any missing child scenario to search the property fully before calling the police. And it is entirely normal for the panic of the people doing the searching to increase in tempo during that search and as it becomes more evident that the child is not in even the most unlikely places. It is a sad fact that many anti McCanns refuse to accept this normal behaviour and instead suggest that almost no searching should have been done and because they were doctors normal emotion would not have affected them. I think both these ideas are incorrect.
Also you are neglecting completely in your post the fact that the most serious damage to the crime scene actually recorded in the files was in fact done by the police themselves and their introduction of dogs into the environment. A bad error indeed and one which anti McCanns either ignore completely or gloss over hastily.
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"Madeleine McCann: Police blunders revealed
By Fiona Govan in Praia da Luz
6:20PM GMT 15 Nov 2007
Portuguese police failed to gather crucial evidence from Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment following Madeleine's disappearance, it has been claimed.
Detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old faced renewed criticism after it emerged that they did not collect the bedding from the room where Madeleine was sleeping.
Blankets, sheets and pillows from Madeleine's bed were not examined for evidence that could have shed light on what happened on the night of May 3.
Portugal's National Institute of Legal Medicine said they had received samples taken from the bedding but not the items themselves.
"We were only sent samples for DNA testing.
"It's obvious it would have been good if they had sent us the blankets, pillows and even the mattress where the girl was sleeping," said a source from the institute.
"We might have found on those articles some important clues, and not just hairs, which were what was sent to the institute.
"Speaking hypothetically, there could have been fibres belonging to an abductor, or even a fingerprint," he said.
The error is the latest in a series of blunders by detectives during the initial phase of the investigation when potential forensic evidence was lost or contaminated because police failed to secure the crime scene.
Detectives wasted valuable time focusing on fingerprints and footprints found at the scene that later turned out to belong to policemen while other samples sent for analysis were found to contain ash from officers' cigarettes.
Meanwhile claims that Robert Murat had been identified as the man seen carrying a child away from the holiday apartment the night Madeleine went missing have been dismissed.
A Portuguese newspaper claimed that two of the so called Tapas Nine - the name given to Kate and Gerry McCann and the seven friends who dined with them on May 3 at their Algarve holiday complex - had pointed out Mr Murat to police within days of Madeleine's disappearance.
"They were all placed in the same room and two people...pointed to Robert Murat," a source was quoted as saying in tabloid 24 Horas. "They clearly stated during the face-to-face meeting that they thought it was him who was carrying a child in his arms," the newspaper claimed.
According to the report, the meeting occurred a few days before Mr Murat, 33, was named an arguido - or formal suspect - on May 14.
He has consistently said that he was at home with his mother on the night of May 3 and maintains that he only learnt about of the little girl's disappearance the following morning when he joined in the search.
It emerged early on in the investigation that Ms Tanner, 37, from Exeter saw a man carrying a child in pink and white pyjamas outside the McCanns' holiday apartment at around 9.15 that night.
A friend of the McCanns said Ms Tanner had never pointed the finger at Mr Murat. "Of course she has been asked many times whether the man she saw (carrying a child) was Murat but she has never said that she believes it was," said the friend. Clarence Mitchell the official spokesman of the McCanns dismissed the newspapers allegations as "absolute rubbish".
"We are not going to comment on yet more speculation in the Portuguese press but there seems to be little truth in this report," he said.
A friend of the McCann's said: "They have no recollection of ever meeting Mr Murat and the idea that they were asked to sit around a table while their friends pointed him out is ludicrous." The lawyer acting for Mr Murat also dismissed the claims. "They are lies," said Francisco Pagarete.
"My client doesn't know the McCanns and the day Madeleine disappeared he was at home with his mum." "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569487/Madeleine-McCann-Police-blunders-revealed.html
"May 4 - McCann family members and British media criticise local police for what they call a slow initial response, failure to notify ports and borders in time, and failure to secure the crime scene, which may have led to vital clues being lost. Police say that under Portuguese secrecy laws they are unable to reveal details of the investigation."
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/070909/International/i508.html
"Their failure to secure the crime scene, close the borders, take early witness statements and conform to other basic investigative good practice has been well reported."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/23/madeleinemccann.portugal
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Would it be any different in the UK? Would CID have raced to the scene immediately? The GNR thought a child was lost, wandered off, not abducted. Did anyone inform the police when calling them that a child had been abducted? After the GNR got there and took stock of everything they called their commander about 15 mins later. Then the PJ got involved. Hardly the picture painted that nothing happened for hours on end.
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"Madeleine McCann: Police blunders revealed
By Fiona Govan in Praia da Luz
6:20PM GMT 15 Nov 2007
Portuguese police failed to gather crucial evidence from Kate and Gerry McCann's holiday apartment following Madeleine's disappearance, it has been claimed.
Detectives investigating the case of the missing four-year-old faced renewed criticism after it emerged that they did not collect the bedding from the room where Madeleine was sleeping.
Blankets, sheets and pillows from Madeleine's bed were not examined for evidence that could have shed light on what happened on the night of May 3.
Portugal's National Institute of Legal Medicine said they had received samples taken from the bedding but not the items themselves.k
"We were only sent samples for DNA testing.
"It's obvious it would have been good if they had sent us the blankets, pillows and even the mattress where the girl was sleeping," said a source from the institute.
"We might have found on those articles some important clues, and not just hairs, which were what was sent to the institute.
"Speaking hypothetically, there could have been fibres belonging to an abductor, or even a fingerprint," he said.
The error is the latest in a series of blunders by detectives during the initial phase of the investigation when potential forensic evidence was lost or contaminated because police failed to secure the crime scene.
Detectives wasted valuable time focusing on fingerprints and footprints found at the scene that later turned out to belong to policemen while other samples sent for analysis were found to contain ash from officers' cigarettes.
Meanwhile claims that Robert Murat had been identified as the man seen carrying a child away from the holiday apartment the night Madeleine went missing have been dismissed.
A Portuguese newspaper claimed that two of the so called Tapas Nine - the name given to Kate and Gerry McCann and the seven friends who dined with them on May 3 at their Algarve holiday complex - had pointed out Mr Murat to police within days of Madeleine's disappearance.
"They were all placed in the same room and two people...pointed to Robert Murat," a source was quoted as saying in tabloid 24 Horas. "They clearly stated during the face-to-face meeting that they thought it was him who was carrying a child in his arms," the newspaper claimed.
According to the report, the meeting occurred a few days before Mr Murat, 33, was named an arguido - or formal suspect - on May 14.
He has consistently said that he was at home with his mother on the night of May 3 and maintains that he only learnt about of the little girl's disappearance the following morning when he joined in the search.
It emerged early on in the investigation that Ms Tanner, 37, from Exeter saw a man carrying a child in pink and white pyjamas outside the McCanns' holiday apartment at around 9.15 that night.
A friend of the McCanns said Ms Tanner had never pointed the finger at Mr Murat. "Of course she has been asked many times whether the man she saw (carrying a child) was Murat but she has never said that she believes it was," said the friend. Clarence Mitchell the official spokesman of the McCanns dismissed the newspapers allegations as "absolute rubbish".
"We are not going to comment on yet more speculation in the Portuguese press but there seems to be little truth in this report," he said.
A friend of the McCann's said: "They have no recollection of ever meeting Mr Murat and the idea that they were asked to sit around a table while their friends pointed him out is ludicrous." The lawyer acting for Mr Murat also dismissed the claims. "They are lies," said Francisco Pagarete.
"My client doesn't know the McCanns and the day Madeleine disappeared he was at home with his mum." "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569487/Madeleine-McCann-Police-blunders-revealed.html
"May 4 - McCann family members and British media criticise local police for what they call a slow initial response, failure to notify ports and borders in time, and failure to secure the crime scene, which may have led to vital clues being lost. Police say that under Portuguese secrecy laws they are unable to reveal details of the investigation."
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/070909/International/i508.html
"Their failure to secure the crime scene, close the borders, take early witness statements and conform to other basic investigative good practice has been well reported."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/23/madeleinemccann.portugal
Do you real want me to list the reasons why this article has no credibility at all ? Shall we start from the fact it was written long before the release of the files and go from there ?
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For the benefit of Faithlilly.
I will post this here as it relates more to the action of the GNR and others in the immediate aftermath of the disappearance of Madeleine than it does to the concept of hindsight.
Specialist Examination Report 200707060-CR/LRequester: DIC PJ Portimao
Fax: 399 of 8 May 2007
Date: 4 May 2007
Then began the detailed observation of the apartment interior ending with the search and recovery of forensic trace material relevant to the present examination.Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm[/quote]
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This is getting silly. The crime scene was contaminated before the police got there. End of. Whether it was further contaminated by police dogs in the hours and days aftef is moot, unless you can prove police dog hairs not being there would have revealed uncontaminated evidence!
It doesnt matter anymore.
oh Mo, I would like a reference from the files that evidence was contaminated with GNR fag ash if you have it.
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What the McCanns did was perfectly understandable and is what any parents would have done. What the GNR officers did was pure incompetence.
What should Tweedledum and Tweedledee have done to avoid your contempt ? Agreed to have a battle ?
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The crime scene was contaminated before the police got there. End of. Whether it was further contaminated by police dogs in the hours and days aftef is moot, unless you can prove police dog hairs not being there would have revealed uncontaminated evidence!
It doesnt matter anymore.
Yes, it doesn't matter. Numi smelt inside of the flat the little blanket, was interested and followed the corridor, without hesitating in the hall where two ways were possible : one towards the G4 and one towards the car park. Numi found the alive scent it had smelt on the little blanket on the first route, not on the second.
If Ms Tanner saw a carrier crossing Francisco Gentil Martins, he was carrying a body, as his way of carrying suggests.
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Would it be any different in the UK? Would CID have raced to the scene immediately? The GNR thought a child was lost, wandered off, not abducted. Did anyone inform the police when calling them that a child had been abducted? After the GNR got there and took stock of everything they called their commander about 15 mins later. Then the PJ got involved. Hardly the picture painted that nothing happened for hours on end.
Redblossom, all this has been said a thousand times. Any believer has to spread their beliefs ! The more they hammer them, the more they convince not the others but themselves ! And it proves they have to..
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Redblossom, all this has been said a thousand times. Any believer has to spread their beliefs ! The more they hammer them, the more they convince not the others but themselves ! And it proves they have to..
I know!
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Do you real want me to list the reasons why this article has no credibility at all ? Shall we start from the fact it was written long before the release of the files and go from there ?
You mean like the credibility attached to Amarals book also written long before the release of the files. And go from there?
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You mean like the credibility attached to Amarals book also written long before the release of the files. And go from there?
Alot of knowledge is better than NO knowledge
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Alot of knowledge is better than NO knowledge
Incorrect knowledge is no knowledge at all.
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You mean like the credibility attached to Amarals book also written long before the release of the files. And go from there?
Amarals book must have been written, well before the files were released, Mo. So what was he doing with police files, after he was removed from the case in October 2007.
He used files and photo's, that were under the secrecy law, and not released. Then again that didn't stop Felicia Cabrita getting her mitts on them, as early as May 2007, did it?
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Amarals book must have been written, well before the files were released, Mo. So what was he doing with police files, after he was removed from the case in October 2007.
He used files and photo's, that were under the secrecy law, and not released. Then again that didn't stop Felicia Cabrita getting her mitts on them, as early as May 2007, did it?
Yes. And exactly the point I have been making on the other thread.
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Amarals book must have been written, well before the files were released, Mo. So what was he doing with police files, after he was removed from the case in October 2007.
Which police files? As I asked umpteen times,which police files was he privy to post October 07, which he included in his book which was written with info he had up until then
None
Just nit picking rubbish, and if you think he committed any judicial secrecy crime, why dont you ask for Tanner to be prosecuted for it? Seeing as she broke it, and six months! Not 3 days, before the shelving of the case
@)(++(*
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Amaral was a police officer, a chief inspector, until he was given the Heyho. That is a relatively senior rank. He should have known better
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Amaral was a police officer, a chief inspector, until he was given the Heyho. That is a relatively senior rank. He should have known better
For the umpteenth time and again.
It wasn't just Amaral who thought the Mccanns were implicated in the disappearance of Madeleine, it was the PJ per se.
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For the umpteenth time and again.
It wasn't just Amaral who thought the Mccanns were implicated in the disappearance of Madeleine, it was the PJ per se.
Amaral was their boss. They took the party line, publicly.
Altho they ignored him when he when he was givenn the "heave-ho".
I wonder why?
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Amaral was their boss. They took the party line, publicly.
Altho they ignored him when he when he was givenn the "heave-ho".
I wonder why?
The PJ investigated the Mccanns after been told to do so by the UK Police and it was the view of the PJ not just Amaral.
As has been said many times he was a bit player.
The Mccanns, in spite, then took legal action against him, even though many other people had said exactly the same things.
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The PJ investigated the Mccanns after been told to do so by the UK Police and it was the view of the PJ not just Amaral.
As has been said many times he was a bit player.
The Mccanns, in spite, then took legal action against him, even though many other people had said exactly the same things.
Oh, so they take orders from the British police, do they Stephen?
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Oh, so they take orders from the British police, do they Stephen?
You really are unaware.
The UK police liaising with the PJ told/advised them to investigate the Mccanns.
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You really are unaware.
The UK police liaising with the PJ told/advised them to investigate the Mccanns.
Everybody knows that the family are the first to be investigated in a case like this Stephen.
Am surprised that, it seems, Amaral didn't
But then perhaps he did know and discussed it with the UK police, but when he was in trouble blamed it on the British police.
Used them as a "Get out" ?