Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on July 31, 2013, 01:44:48 AM
Title: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: faithlilly on July 31, 2013, 01:44:48 AM
Do posters believe Madeleine and her brother did indeed wake up and cry for their parents on the night of the 2nd ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on July 31, 2013, 03:06:13 AM
Do posters believe Madeleine and her brother did indeed wake up and cry for their parents on the night of the 2nd ?
A good question ? Rachael heard nothing, she would have, being exactly on the other side of the wall next to Madeleine's head. A very short and soft crying Rachael would have forgotten ? But why would Madeleine report a few minutes slight crying ? Just to let her parents know she knew they weren't home ? It sounds a bit mature for a just 4 one. This reported crying is certainly not "Mrs Fenn's" one, as she said it stopped when the sliding door was open. The parents heard it, no need for Madeleine to mention it later. But this extraordinary crying was denied by the parents. How could they know, since they weren't there ? Did they deny only because this episode implied they weren't checking every 30 minutes ? From Madeleine in PDL, we have two quotations : "be a monster" and "Why didn't you come...". The first sentence was directed to Mr Oldfield and the second to her mother (but looking her father, according to her mother). Why did they reported it . What relevance could it have ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on July 31, 2013, 05:04:20 PM
Odd statement Apparently Madeleine asked why didnt you come when we were crying? So crying at the same time it seems.
The MCcanns wondered when this could be, at bath time? When they were putting them to bed?
Both those situations would have been at least when they were in the flat before going out, so would have been heard even IF they left the kids alone in the bath or they cried after being put to bed, not DURING those two events, otherwise the Mccanns would remember and would not rack their brains to.
Kate Mccann said if it were between checks and they woke up and cried they would have fallen back asleep quickly, because on their checks they kids were not making any noise. But on the Wednesday, at least according to Tanner their checks were longer in intervals as they went to thebar after the restaraunt and left real late.
She later made a big deal about this possibly / probably meaning an intruder had woken them on a dry run!
If there was an intruder, I think Madeleine was at an age to say what it was that woke her.
Obviously, there is no evidence this ever happened. Both the crying episode and any intruder practising.
Then we have the discrepancy of Kate Mccann insisting it was a passing remark and unimportant as Madeleine moved on and started playing wih toys and it went completely out of her mind, she never thought about those comments until after the abduction, which has been proven by her three female friends to be untrue.
So, either they woke up and cried themselves back to sleep in the parents absence or it never happened.
But, Rachel would have heard two kids crying IMO if it were when they went out to dinner,but she didnt.
Then there is the possibility they woke up and cried after the parents came home and they didnt hear them as they had had alot of drink that Wednesday night, ie more than usual. Who knows!
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: faithlilly on July 31, 2013, 05:43:50 PM
Odd statement Apparently Madeleine asked why didnt you come when we were crying? So crying at the same time it seems.
The MCcanns wondered when this could be, at bath time? When they were putting them to bed?
Both those situations would have been at least when they were in the flat before going out, so would have been heard even IF they left the kids alone in the bath or they cried after being put to bed, not DURING those two events, otherwise the Mccanns would remember and would not rack their brains to.
Kate Mccann said if it were between checks and they woke up and cried they would have fallen back asleep quickly, because on their checks they kids were not making any noise. But on the Wednesday, at least according to Tanner their checks were longer in intervals as they went to thebar after the restaraunt and left real late.
She later made a big deal about this possibly / probably meaning an intruder had woken them on a dry run!
If there was an intruder, I think Madeleine was at an age to say what it was that woke her.
Obviously, there is no evidence this ever happened. Both the crying episode and any intruder practising.
Then we have the discrepancy of Kate Mccann insisting it was a passing remark and unimportant as Madeleine moved on and started playing wih toys and it went completely out of her mind, she never thought about those comments until after the abduction, which has been proven by her three female friends to be untrue.
So, either they woke up and cried themselves back to sleep in the parents absence or it never happened.
But, Rachel would have heard two kids crying IMO if it were when they went out to dinner,but she didnt.
Then there is the possibility they woke up and cried after the parents came home and they didnt hear them as they had had alot of drink that Wednesday night, ie more than usual. Who knows!
As you say Red, who knows !
What is interesting though is that the faithful, usually so quick to answer our enquiries are eerily quiet on this one.
Could that be because there is no easy way to answer it without making themselves or the McCanns seem heartless ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on July 31, 2013, 06:08:45 PM
What is interesting though is that the faithful, usually so quick to answer our enquiries are eerily quiet on this one.
Could that be because there is no easy way to answer it without making themselves or the McCanns seem heartless ?
Well, theycant make up their minds, Mrs Fenns account couldnt have had anything to do with Madeleine crying,even though she was adamant it was 5a, and this one probably didnt either because Rachel didnt hear it and neither did the Mccanns, but they say it was probably intruder who woke them up, go figure
8)-)))
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: sadie on August 01, 2013, 01:27:37 AM
Round and round we go.
Stir it up for the Mccanns
This has all been gone over very thoroughly in other threads as you know.
What is wrong with you peeps?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: faithlilly on August 01, 2013, 07:13:46 AM
This has all been gone over very thoroughly in other threads as you know.
Has it? You can kindly remind readers of any concensus reached then, or even just give your opinion on THIS thread, if its not too much trouble, I mean you are very capable of writing reams and reams on simple questions, we may get a new insight from you
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 08:57:54 AM
.......quote removed as unsubstantiated .....
It most likely the Wednesday morning, referring to Tuesdays crying, more evidence for that, whilst no evidence for any Wednesday crying.
I wonder why (according to Jane Rachel and Fiona that is) Kate Mccann told them at dinner Thursday night about it though, each in turn, and how it was worrying her, if, as she says, she was not worried about it and forgot about it. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Mr Moderator on August 01, 2013, 10:33:37 AM
Gonçalo Amaral looked into this incident and stated in his book that it occurred on Tuesday1st May.
Tuesday May1st
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Has it? You can kindly remind readers of any concensus reached then, or even just give your opinion on THIS thread, if its not too much trouble, I mean you are very capable of writing reams and reams on simple questions, we may get a new insight from you
Upsets you, does it when I prove you wrong?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: sadie on August 01, 2013, 01:00:25 PM
Gonçalo Amaral looked into this incident and stated in his book that it occurred on Tuesday1st May.
Tuesday May1st
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
They Will believe him .... even if they disbelieve the Mccanns and the rest of the Brits, on everything .. twist their words ... and continually call them liars.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 01, 2013, 01:30:15 PM
It most likely the Wednesday morning, referring to Tuesdays crying, more evidence for that, whilst no evidence for any Wednesday crying.
I wonder why (according to Jane Rachel and Fiona that is) Kate Mccann told them at dinner Thursday night about it though, each in turn, and how it was worrying her, if, as she says, she was not worried about it and forgot about it. >@@(*&)
I wonder as well why on that particular Thursday night Mrs McCann had a doubt about leaving open a patio door that had been left open 3 or 4 nights before. It seems she knew there was a chance Madeleine woke up and, getting out of her bed, as she had likely done to check for her parents on Tuesday, would most certainly search for them. The disturbing dilemma then wouldn't have been between leaving the door open because checking was shorter or not, nor between leaving the door open to avoid a trap in case of fire or not, but between leaving open a door that allowed Madeleine to get out in search of them vs closing that door and confronting Madeleine to the reality of being locked alone in a strange place.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 05:06:16 PM
I wonder as well why on that particular Thursday night Mrs McCann had a doubt about leaving open a patio door that had been left open 3 or 4 nights before. It seems she knew there was a chance Madeleine woke up and, getting out of her bed, as she had likely done to check for her parents on Tuesday, would most certainly search for them. The disturbing dilemma then wouldn't have been between leaving the door open because checking was shorter or not, nor between leaving the door open to avoid a trap in case of fire or not, but between leaving open a door that allowed Madeleine to get out in search of them vs closing that door and confronting Madeleine to the reality of being locked alone in a strange place.
Quite
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Benice on August 01, 2013, 06:11:21 PM
Gonçalo Amaral looked into this incident and stated in his book that it occurred on Tuesday1st May.
Tuesday May1st
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Here is the rest of Amaral's description of that incident from his book:- (my comments in blue)
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return. Not true - Mrs. Fenn did not name Madeleine.
Wednesday May 2nd At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately. Another lie - this time by omission. Amaral changes what Madeleine said by craftily leaving out Sean's name. This is to make it tie in with Mrs. Fenn saying she only heard ONE child crying.
The date of 2nd May is a downright lie - Madeleine spoke to her parents on 3rd May. Amaral has changed the date to make it look as if it was the following morning after Mrs. Fenn heard a child crying that Madeleine asked the question. ------------------------------------------
And people reckon his book was based on information from the files? Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 06:16:39 PM
Mrs Fenn did not need to name the child Benice plus she was adamant it came from the flat directly below hers, so not a bad supposition! *** She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. ***
Oh and its interesting that for you Mr Amaral could not have made a mistake or misunderstood but deliberately lied, but of course the Mccanns never ever were guilty of the same, well, its been proven they havebeen
Chow for now, hogging the board
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 01, 2013, 07:42:10 PM
The date of 2nd May is a downright lie - Madeleine spoke to her parents on 3rd May. Amaral has changed the date to make it look as if it was the following morning after Mrs. Fenn heard a child crying that Madeleine asked the question. ------------------------------------------
And people reckon his book was based on information from the files? Unbelievable!
The McCanns claimed Madeleine asked them on the 3rd why they didn't come. Was it true ? They didn't know whether Madeleine had gone sailing on Wednesday or on Thursday... They curiously never had the curiosity to find out when Madeleine had cried. There's no evidence of her crying in the Wednesday night, Rachael didn't hear her. But there's evidence a child who wasn't a toddler cried in that flat on Tuesday. So when Mr Amaral suggests Madeleine said she cried on the 3rd it seems more plausible. It appears more plausible to all of us. Or not ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Benice on August 01, 2013, 09:45:17 PM
The McCanns claimed Madeleine asked them on the 3rd why they didn't come. Was it true ? They didn't know whether Madeleine had gone sailing on Wednesday or on Thursday... They curiously never had the curiosity to find out when Madeleine had cried. There's no evidence of her crying in the Wednesday night, Rachael didn't hear her. But there's evidence a child who wasn't a toddler cried in that flat on Tuesday. So when Mr Amaral suggests Madeleine said she cried on the 3rd it seems more plausible. It appears more plausible to all of us. Or not ?
It was on the morning of the 3rd when Madeleine spoke to her mum - and it was at dinner on the evening of the 3rd when Kate mentioned it to the others. IMO as well as deliberately lying about the date to suit his story Amaral also deliberately left out Sean's name to overcome the problem he had of Mrs Fenn only hearing ONE child - when Madeleine had said she AND Sean had cried i.e. TWO children. What other reason would he have for making that omission?
His version bears no resemblance to the files.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 09:54:04 PM
It was on the morning of the 3rd when Madeleine spoke to her mum - and it was at dinner on the evening of the 3rd when Kate mentioned it to the others. IMO as well as deliberately lying about the date to suit his story Amaral also deliberately left out Sean's name to overcome the problem he had of Mrs Fenn only hearing ONE child - when Madeleine had said she AND Sean had cried i.e. TWO children. What other reason would he have for making that omission?
His version bears no resemblance to the files.
And kate mcccan says she never thought about it until after the abduction LOL So why Benice did she mention it to her girlfriends????
Listen to her from 1 min
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 01, 2013, 10:07:39 PM
It was on the morning of the 3rd when Madeleine spoke to her mum - and it was at dinner on the evening of the 3rd when Kate mentioned it to the others. IMO as well as deliberately lying about the date to suit his story Amaral also deliberately left out Sean's name to overcome the problem he had of Mrs Fenn only hearing ONE child - when Madeleine had said she AND Sean had cried i.e. TWO children. What other reason would he have for making that omission?
His version bears no resemblance to the files.
Benice, you do have the believers' syndrome. Your starting point is a pure belief that you treat like truth. Yes, on the 3rd of May evening Mrs McCann told her companions Madeleine had asked on the third of May morning where they were when she and her brother cried. This is an established fact. No, Mrs McCann didn't say which day/time Madeleine was referring to. She only mentioned bathtime, which is ridiculous. Madeleine wouldn't have waited so long to ask. No, there's no evidence of Madeleine asking her parents on that morning. Spreading "Madeleine asked", instead of spreading "Her parents say she..." is starting a myth.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Benice on August 01, 2013, 10:09:22 PM
And kate mcccan says she never thought about it until after the abduction LOL
IMO that's Nitpicking Red. It's quite obvious that she meant that if Madeleine had not been abducted it would simply have been forgotten about because it would had had no significance - and so she would have had no reason to wonder about it after that day.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 10:12:52 PM
IMO that's Nitpicking Red. It's quite obvious that she meant that if Madeleine had not been abducted it would simply have been forgotten about because it would had had no significance - and so she would have had no reason to wonder about it after that day.
Doh
Thats what she said but its not what she actualy did say to her mates that night BEFORE the alledged abduction, do keep up dear your boring me to sleep
Do watch the video and then read the rogatories, they clash, nite now
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: DCI on August 01, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
IMO that's Nitpicking Red. It's quite obvious that she meant that if Madeleine had not been abducted it would simply have been forgotten about because it would had had no significance - and so she would have had no reason to wonder about it after that day.
Kate needn't have mentioned it at all, but she did, thinking it could have been relevant to the case. Didn't Mrs Fenn deny ever saying it, on video?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 01, 2013, 10:17:27 PM
IMO that's Nitpicking Red. It's quite obvious that she meant that if Madeleine had not been abducted it would simply have been forgotten about because it would had had no significance - and so she would have had no reason to wonder about it after that day.
And you agree with that ? A little girl clearly lets her mum know she has discovered she was alone at night and her mum "has no reason to wonder about it" ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 10:32:26 PM
IMO that's Nitpicking Red. It's quite obvious that she meant that if Madeleine had not been abducted it would simply have been forgotten about because it would had had no significance - and so she would have had no reason to wonder about it after that day.
Keep up Benice, she wondered about it BEFORE thw abduction Sheesh, give up LOL ,
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 01, 2013, 10:34:59 PM
Benice, you do have the believers' syndrome. Your starting point is a pure belief that you treat like truth. Yes, on the 3rd of May evening Mrs McCann told her companions Madeleine had asked on the third of May morning where they were when she and her brother cried. This is an established fact. No, Mrs McCann didn't say which day/time Madeleine was referring to. She only mentioned bathtime, which is ridiculous. Madeleine wouldn't have waited so long to ask. No, there's no evidence of Madeleine asking her parents on that morning. Spreading "Madeleine asked", instead of spreading "Her parents say she..." is starting a myth.
The evidence that Madeleine asked her mother on the morning of the 3rd and not the 2nd is in the files. To dispute that you have to claim that KM and her friends all lied. IMO that's just an easy 'get out' when faced with unpalatable facts. The clear evidence that Amaral lied in his book doesn't suit you and so you simply claim Kate lied - and that's problem solved as far as you are concerned.
We are talking about Amaral claiming that it was on the morning of the 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her mother. He did that because that was the next morning after Mrs Fenn heard a child crying - and so the reader would be more likely to believe it was Madeleine she heard. There is no proof that it was Madeleine in the files. He deliberately lied to hoodwink his readers. Why are you trying to excuse that?
IMO it is you who is trying the create a myth here.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Benice on August 01, 2013, 11:01:56 PM
Kate needn't have mentioned it at all, but she did, thinking it could have been relevant to the case. Didn't Mrs Fenn deny ever saying it, on video?
I agree. They volunteered that information even though it put them in a bad light. This is one of the reasons why I believe they are not liars, because if they had wanted to let the PJ know that Madeleine had said something which could have meant the abductor had been in the night before, then they could have easily lied and said ''Madeleine told us she had a nasty dream about a man in her room.' or made up other stories which did not put them in a bad light. But they didn't.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Benice on August 01, 2013, 11:07:07 PM
Keep up Benice, she wondered about it BEFORE thw abduction Sheesh, give up LOL ,
She wondered about it after Madeleine said it. She discussed it with Gerry, but because Madeleine hadn't said any more and was away playing happily it wasn't pursued. She mentioned it on the night - not as a big deal, but in conversation. If Madeleine had not been abducted, she wouldn't have thought about it again. I can't find anything strange about any of that.
AIMHO
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 01, 2013, 11:36:58 PM
The evidence that Madeleine asked her mother on the morning of the 3rd and not the 2nd is in the files. To dispute that you have to claim that KM and her friends all lied. IMO that's just an easy 'get out' when faced with unpalatable facts. The clear evidence that Amaral lied in his book doesn't suit you and so you simply claim Kate lied - and that's problem solved as far as you are concerned.
We are talking about Amaral claiming that it was on the morning of the 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her mother. He did that because that was the next morning after Mrs Fenn heard a child crying - and so the reader would be more likely to believe it was Madeleine she heard. There is no proof that it was Madeleine in the files. He deliberately lied to hoodwink his readers. Why are you trying to excuse that?
IMO it is you who is trying the create a myth here.
Benice, I'll repeat in case you didn't understand my poor English. If you insist again, I'll have to avoid your posts. 1) Mrs McCann said Madeleine asked why etc. This is not a fact. There's no evidence of this. You weren't having breakfast with them or did you ? What is in the file is the McCanns said... 2) Mrs McCann told her friends that Madeleine on that morning had asked etc. This is a fact. It was corroborated by those friends. I do believe most of their statements by the way, so you better stop arguing they're all guilty when I suggest the McCanns didn't say the truth. 3) I don't defend Mr Amaral whom I don't know and whose theory I don't agree with. 4) Mrs Fenn lived in this flat and knew the noises of the building. If she determined the sliding door she heard was the 5A (besides the unique used sliding door) and the cries were coming from the 5A, I'm prone to believe her. She was a thoughtful lady, she showed it refusing gossiping to the media. You proceed with Mrs Fenn the same way you proceed with Mr Grime - discrediting and this way feeding myths -, because Mrs Fenn revealed indirectly the McCanns weren't checking as much as they did, as the AG underlined. Benice, I feel you're a nice person, but your bad faith goes beyond reasonable limits. I hardly can imagine you're not part in this case and have no ties with the McCann family. In a word you're not neutral. Neutrality is a condition sine qua non for interesting debate.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: faithlilly on August 02, 2013, 07:19:37 AM
Benice, I feel you're a nice person, but your bad faith goes beyond reasonable limits. I hardly can imagine you're not part in this case and have no ties with the McCann family. In a word you're not neutral. Neutrality is a condition sine qua non for interesting debate.
Ahh the usual last resort of a sceptic - i.e. - accuse the poster of being a relative of the McCanns. (sigh)
I do not know the McCanns and have never met them or spoken to them. I support them because I do not believe they had anything to do with their daughter's disappearance. That belief is based on the available evidence, common sense and logic. After six years even the most dedicated sceptic has not been able to come up with an alternative theory to adbuction which doesn't crash and burn under scrutiny. They should ask themselves why.
IMO The McCanns were an ordinary, normal family who went on holiday and suffered the worst nightmare of any parent - in that their child was abducted and they do not know what happened to her after that - and until someone comes up with the evidence which proves that is NOT what happened then I shall continue to believe it.
If you can't understand that Anne - that is not my problem.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 09:42:59 AM
They Will believe him .... even if they disbelieve the Mccanns and the rest of the Brits, on everything .. twist their words ... and continually call them liars.
I don't understand why discussion has to be broken down along the lines of, those who don't believe the McCann's "hate" them and think Amaral is a saint, and those who believe the parents think they have done everything right and nothing wrong and think Amaral is the devil incarnate.
Nothing in life, certainly something as complex as this case, is ever so black and white.
Do i think Amaral is saint? No Do i believe he made mistakes? Yes (as Amaral himself has admitted) Do i believe he should be able to defend himself? Yes Do i believe the McCann's version of events? No Do i believe the McCann's have lied? Yes Do i believe the Mccann's and the group killed the investigation? Yes Do i believe this should raise suspicion which requires further investigation? Yes Do i "hate" the McCann's? No Do i think the parents should be thoroughly questioned and suspected, given their statements and other indications? Yes Do i think they should be given a free ride just because they say there was an abduction? No Do i think it was right for the PJ to treat them as suspects? Yes Do i think the parents were guilty of neglect? Yes
You can adopt a stance without it being as clear cut as "Amaral good, McCann's bad" and vice versa.
This is the main problem with the other forums that discuss the case they are either all or nothing on the above staement one way or the other, and i don't believe it is as clear cut and simplistic as that.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 10:00:11 AM
Ahh the usual last resort of a sceptic - i.e. - accuse the poster of being a relative of the McCanns. (sigh)
I do not know the McCanns and have never met them or spoken to them. I support them because I do not believe they had anything to do with their daughter's disappearance. That belief is based on the available evidence, common sense and logic. After six years even the most dedicated sceptic has not been able to come up with an alternative theory to adbuction which doesn't crash and burn under scrutiny. They should ask themselves why.
IMO The McCanns were an ordinary, normal family who went on holiday and suffered the worst nightmare of any parent - in that their child was abducted and they do not know what happened to her after that - and until someone comes up with the evidence which proves that is NOT what happened then I shall continue to believe it.
If you can't understand that Anne - that is not my problem.
Hi benice
I haven't studied this in much detail but what do you think of this theory:
Good grief - I must admit that after reading that Madeleine died on the 2nd May, I skipped through the rest.
According to the author it would seem that anyone who thought they saw Madeleine on the 3rd was either lying, stupid or blind. I presume the author also thinks that Madeleine was simply a figment of their imagination in the minds of all the other children who were with her on that day at the Kiddies club, and also any other holidaymakers/parents who may have seen her - but were not interviewed.
I can safely say I've never read anything so ludicrous in my life.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Rachel Granada on August 02, 2013, 11:21:07 AM
Thanks for posting this up Albertini. It's an interesting read but I have to echo what Benice said. I just can't believe that Madeleine passed away on the 2nd, she was seen on 3rd May.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 12:55:35 PM
Good grief - I must admit that after reading that Madeleine died on the 2nd May, I skipped through the rest.
According to the author it would seem that anyone who thought they saw Madeleine on the 3rd was either lying, stupid or blind. I presume the author also thinks that Madeleine was simply a figment of their imagination in the minds of all the other children who were with her on that day at the Kiddies club, and also any other holidaymakers/parents who may have seen her - but were not interviewed.
I can safely say I've never read anything so ludicrous in my life.
Well maybe the reason you haven't found a valid accidental death theory is because you stop reading them the moment you happen across something you refuse to believe is possible.
Is it an absolute physical impossibility that some misfortune befell Madeleine on the 2nd May?
I'd say everything is on the table unless it is proven that it is a physical impossibility.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 12:55:55 PM
Thanks for posting this up Albertini. It's an interesting read but I have to echo what Benice said. I just can't believe that Madeleine passed away on the 2nd, she was seen on 3rd May.
But not impossible though?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Benice on August 02, 2013, 01:16:43 PM
Well maybe the reason you haven't found a valid accidental death theory is because you stop reading them the moment you happen across something you refuse to believe is possible.
Is it an absolute physical impossibility that some misfortune befell Madeleine on the 2nd May?
I'd say everything is on the table unless it is proven that it is a physical impossibility.
Of course it's an absolute impossibility that Madeleine died on the 2nd May - unless you want to dispense with all common sense and logic and believe that all the people who claim to have seen her alive and well on the 3rd May are mistaken. Sorry - far too many witnesses that we know about, let alone the people at the OC that day who saw her that we don't know about - because they had no reason to come forward just to say 'We saw Madeleine on the 3rd' before they went home. Why would they?
IIRC wasn't there a photograph of another family's children showing her in the background on 3rd May - which was forwarded to the authorities? I vaguely remember Bennet wrote to the owner - but I'm happy to be corrected if that's wrong.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
I don't understand why discussion has to be broken down along the lines of, those who don't believe the McCann's "hate" them and think Amaral is a saint, and those who believe the parents think they have done everything right and nothing wrong and think Amaral is the devil incarnate.
Nothing in life, certainly something as complex as this case, is ever so black and white.
Do i think Amaral is saint? No Do i believe he made mistakes? Yes (as Amaral himself has admitted) Do i believe he should be able to defend himself? Yes Do i believe the McCann's version of events? No Do i believe the McCann's have lied? Yes Do i believe the Mccann's and the group killed the investigation? Yes Do i believe this should raise suspicion which requires further investigation? Yes Do i "hate" the McCann's? No Do i think the parents should be thoroughly questioned and suspected, given their statements and other indications? Yes Do i think they should be given a free ride just because they say there was an abduction? No Do i think it was right for the PJ to treat them as suspects? Yes Do i think the parents were guilty of neglect? Yes
You can adopt a stance without it being as clear cut as "Amaral good, McCann's bad" and vice versa.
This is the main problem with the other forums that discuss the case they are either all or nothing on the above staement one way or the other, and i don't believe it is as clear cut and simplistic as that.
I'll second that. Well said.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2013, 03:57:00 PM
Ahh the usual last resort of a sceptic - i.e. - accuse the poster of being a relative of the McCanns. (sigh)
I do not know the McCanns and have never met them or spoken to them. I support them because I do not believe they had anything to do with their daughter's disappearance. That belief is based on the available evidence, common sense and logic. After six years even the most dedicated sceptic has not been able to come up with an alternative theory to adbuction which doesn't crash and burn under scrutiny. They should ask themselves why.
IMO The McCanns were an ordinary, normal family who went on holiday and suffered the worst nightmare of any parent - in that their child was abducted and they do not know what happened to her after that - and until someone comes up with the evidence which proves that is NOT what happened then I shall continue to believe it.
If you can't understand that Anne - that is not my problem.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
I endorse that completely. As far as i am aware, nobody on the pro side has any connection to the Mccann family, apart from fighting for Justice for them and hopefully contributing towards the finding of Madeleine, the other missing children ... and the arrest of the perp and his assistants
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 04:33:07 PM
Exif data on the mccanns camera will show when the last photo was taken, thats the ultimate proof
The only problem I have with that is why it took three weeks and a return by Gerry Mccann to the UK to produce it and why it is missing from the PJ files
As for people saying they saw her on the 3rd there are at least two nannies, a cook and and a waiter, although he changed his statement to *not sure*
I dont think these people lied, why would they?
Even Mr Amaral was convinced of her prescence on 3rd May.
PS I dont think that bloggers theory /analysis can be discarded though outright,as theymake many many valid and true points within it, but other theories can be ie no proof she was seen after Sunday and all that rollocks
C u later
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 05:24:20 PM
She wondered about it after Madeleine said it. She discussed it with Gerry, but because Madeleine hadn't said any more and was away playing happily it wasn't pursued. She mentioned it on the night - not as a big deal, but in conversation. If Madeleine had not been abducted, she wouldn't have thought about it again. I can't find anything strange about any of that.
AIMHO
Thats your take...but it isnt the only one
here from 1.00 on Kate Mccaann definitely says had she not been abducted, that comment of hers in the morning would never had passed her mind again! it obviously DID and YES it seemed it was a big deal, READ the rogatories
Thing is Benice, they had NO idea that the files would be released to the public, so they said many things which turned out to be untrue
Ps and why on earth did she say you would never think in a million years that someone was trying to take her out of the bedroom, as if that was a fact! That at is why she woke and cried
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 03, 2013, 02:43:33 AM
Well maybe the reason you haven't found a valid accidental death theory is because you stop reading them the moment you happen across something you refuse to believe is possible.
Is it an absolute physical impossibility that some misfortune befell Madeleine on the 2nd May?
I'd say everything is on the table unless it is proven that it is a physical impossibility.
I suppose everything that questions the belief is condemned to death.This is how sects prosper. Johanna built up a well tied together theory that sounds Agatha Christie's. But, apart from a complicity of the group that does make sense to me, there's a real rub and she didn't forgive my pointing to it.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 03, 2013, 02:48:41 AM
Hi, I had another read through and a good think about things but I'm sorry that I just can't give it any credence Albertini. There are far too many witnesses who saw Madeleine on the 3rd and also the photos from Mr Edmonds which I am confident that the PJ and SY will have.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 04, 2013, 11:06:40 PM
Hi, I had another read through and a good think about things but I'm sorry that I just can't give it any credence Albertini. There are far too many witnesses who saw Madeleine on the 3rd and also the photos from Mr Edmonds which I am confident that the PJ and SY will have.
Mr Edmonds ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Chinagirl on August 05, 2013, 12:31:33 AM
Anne: there was a holiday-maker called Philip Edmonds there who took photos of his own children in which Madeleine appeared in the background. Bennett (I'm sure you know who I'm referring to) wrote to Edmonds asking him to supply copies of those photos to him (Bennett) in order to prove/disprove that Madeleine was indeed there on 3 May. Edmonds replied to Bennett as follows:
Dear Mr Bennett,
"I am in receipt of your letter of 22 July regarding Madeleine McCann.
"I am sure you would appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to comment too much, as we do not know each other, and I have no idea what your connection to the case is.
"However, I would also not want further conspiracy theories to fester by simply ignoring your letter.
"Therefore, I can confirm that whatever information I had (including some photos of my sons taken on the day Madeleine disappeared, which showed her in the background) was passed both to the police and to the McCanns at the time.
"Having been in Portugal at the time of Madeleine’s disappearance and seen all of the events first hand, there is not one shred of doubt in my mind that the events as reported were correct.
"In fact one of the most terrible parts of this tragedy is that there are people out there who are questioning this, just adding further to the nightmare that the McCann family have suffered. I cannot imagine anything crueller.
"I’m afraid I won’t enter into further correspondence on this matter with you.
"Yours sincerely,
"Philip Edmonds"
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 05, 2013, 12:51:03 AM
Anne: there was a holiday-maker called Philip Edmonds there who took photos of his own children in which Madeleine appeared in the background.
Many thanks, Chinagirl, I had never heard of Mr Edmonds. Was this letter turned public by Mr Bennett ? Are the photographs of some interest except for proving Madeleine was alive on the 3rd, which I never doubted ?
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Chinagirl on August 05, 2013, 01:02:22 AM
Yes - Bennett did make this letter public, which is how I was able to copy it.
As I have not seen these photos (nor, as far as I know, has anyone else outside the relevant police services), I am unable to answer your second question.
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2013, 09:59:46 AM
According to Silvia Batista, the twins were there and were taken up later.
The windows were shut and the curtains were slightly open. Gerry accompanied her on this visit, also with GNR officers and he said that it had been him who had closed the window because the babies were still sleeping there, which the deponent noticed to be true.
[snip]
At a given point, soon after the PJ officers arrived, the parents took the twins from their beds where they were sleeping, taking them up to the apartment on the first floor. At Kate's request the deponent took from the babies' cots the dolls and a blanket also up to the first floor. The cots stayed with only the mattresses [in them].
Title: Re: Was the crying incident on the Tuesday or the Wednesday?
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2013, 11:09:06 AM
João Franciso Páscoa Luis Trigo Barreiras:
He was shown the room the child had disappeared from, having noticed that people also entered and left that room without any care in the sense of preserving traces. Inside this room there were two children, babies, sleeping in two cots placed in the middle of the room.
It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic8.html
So let's see, that's both Silvia Batista and João Berreiras who apparently were aware of the twins in their cots.
Berreiras would want the twins out of the bedroom to start on the forensics...
There was also Amy Tierney, but I don't find it clear whether her statement was accurately translated/transcribed as it mentions a "bed" in which the twins were sleeping.