Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 08:01:45 AM
Title: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Albertini on August 02, 2013, 08:01:45 AM
Photo from the scene (with caption) on the night of the 3rd May
Tony Rogers, a former detective with experience with experience of high-profile murder cases, told the channel: "If it's a bag of a size that could be taking away from the flat a child, that would be of great interest to the investigating officer."
But Clarence Mitchell, the spokesman for Madeleine's parents, dismissed the report, insisting that Gerry had never owned such a bag.
This article has also been quoted but i can't see it online (it appears to have been whooshed):
Vanessa Allen reported a story in the Daily Mail on December 25, 2007 "Hunt for Gerry’s missing tennis bag which ‘could have been used to carry Madeleine away’".
In the article, Gerry McCann and Clarence Mitchell were quoted:
But Mr McCann told friends yesterday that he did not take any tennis equipment to Praia da Luz, and did not own a blue tennis bag.
McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell flatly denied that Mr McCann had lost a bag during the family’s holiday.
He said: “As far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag. They came back from holiday with everything except of course, tragically, Madeleine.”
What did happen to that bag and why did they deny owning one?
137
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2013, 11:52:34 AM
Tony Rogers, a former detective with experience with experience of high-profile murder cases, told the channel: "If it's a bag of a size that could be taking away from the flat a child, that would be of great interest to the investigating officer."
But Clarence Mitchell, the spokesman for Madeleine's parents, dismissed the report, insisting that Gerry had never owned such a bag.
This article has also been quoted but i can't see it online (it appears to have been whooshed):
Vanessa Allen reported a story in the Daily Mail on December 25, 2007 "Hunt for Gerry’s missing tennis bag which ‘could have been used to carry Madeleine away’".
In the article, Gerry McCann and Clarence Mitchell were quoted:
But Mr McCann told friends yesterday that he did not take any tennis equipment to Praia da Luz, and did not own a blue tennis bag.
McCann family spokesman Clarence Mitchell flatly denied that Mr McCann had lost a bag during the family’s holiday.
He said: “As far as Kate and Gerry are concerned, there is no missing tennis bag. They came back from holiday with everything except of course, tragically, Madeleine.”
What did happen to that bag and why did they deny owning one?
Oh not the tennis bag again! How trite.
I have seen other pictires of that so called tennis bag, gawd knows where, but I have seen them
That bag is a typical carry on board flight bag...
FGS can someone find a photo of it and burst this silly myth. Purleeaze
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: DCI on August 02, 2013, 01:11:39 PM
Here you go, Sadie, you can see the silver tag, on the bag ?{)(**
Are you suggesting tha Gerry packed a big tennis bag?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 02:46:00 PM
The bag in the wardrobe looks too big and bulkier ( by sight and judging by the space it packs in the wardrobe shelf height and depth) than the handbag with the white/grey vertical patches. The metal tag of one is horizontal, the other diagonal and looks the tag end of a case zipper. Also both photos were taken on the same night, so different bags IMO. It is most probable the bag in the wardrobe is this one IMO, a suitcase, first picture, view horizontally
The bag in the wardrobe looks too big and bulkier ( by sight and judging by the space it packs in the wardrobe shelf height and depth) than the handbag with the white/grey vertical patches. The metal tag of one is horizontal, the other diagonal and looks the tag end of a case zipper. Also both photos were taken on the same night, so different bags IMO. It is most probable the bag in the wardrobe is this one IMO, a suitcase, first picture, view horizontally
I am open minded about which bag was in the wardrobe, but the one that you show, red could not be described as a tennis bag ... and neither could the other really
Do you think that Gerry packed a tennis bag?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 03:30:10 PM
I am open minded about which bag was in the wardrobe, but the one that you show, red could not be described as a tennis bag ... and neither could the other really
Do you think that Gerry packed a tennis bag?
What makes you think the handbag is the bag in the wardrobe? What are the similarities apart from colour? Never mind, it doesnt really matter.
Do I think he packed a tennis bag? How would I know?
The source of the missing tennis bag was Martin Brunt in his documentary of Dec 07, part of which was quoted by Albertini earlier. I reckon some people pieced that together with the photos of the wardrobe and the position of the dog alert,when they came out in 2008 to make that theory, idea,point, comment etc.
Never heard or seen anything from any other source re this. So.....pass.
Eta no, the bag in the wardrobe, which I think is the suitcase is not a tennis bag or sports bag. Too big.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2013, 03:47:45 PM
What makes you think the handbag is the bag in the wardrobe? What are the similarities apart from colour? Never mind, it doesnt really matter.
Do I think he packed a tennis bag? How would I know?
The source of the missing tennis bag was Martin Brunt in his documentary of Dec 07, part of which was quoted by Albertini earlier. I reckon some people pieced that together with the photos of the wardrobe and the position of the dog alert,when they came out in 2008 to make that theory, idea,point, comment etc.
Never heard or seen anything from any other source re this. So.....pass.
Eta no, the bag in the wardrobe, which I think is the suitcase is not a tennis bag or sports bag. Too big.
OK, I will go along with that
Red letter day, Red. We agree 8(>(( 8((()*/
So seems that the tennis bag is likely a myth.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 04:16:07 PM
Are you sure that the object in the wardrobe is a bag? I cant make it out at all. If it is a bag then I am inclined to think it is a backpack of some sort. There seems to be straps or something ... am not sure
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: DCI on August 02, 2013, 06:18:12 PM
and 04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_970 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm#p4p967
Could you give me a link to the original of the one you posted? Its not on the DVD's, only the one with the wardrobe empty and a cardigan hanging on the door knob.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 06:27:06 PM
and 04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_970 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm#p4p967
Could you give me a link to the original of the one you posted? Its not on the DVD's, only the one with the wardrobe empty and a cardigan hanging on the door knob.
Of course it is, just because YOU havent seen it lol, you suggesting, yet again, someone made it up? @)(++(*
Fill yer boots
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/APARTMENT.htm
And YES, the original IS in the dvd
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 02, 2013, 06:37:25 PM
Does that mean you accept the photo was in the files or not? only answering your question and YOUR suspicions, and insinuations that it was not hardly reason to get so annoyed by me stating facts and you name calling in return >@@(*&)
To be fair Red, it was a perfectly valid question put in a non hostile way.
No, DCI has form for insinuating x y z hasbeen DOCTORED, so I make no apology for taking that from his post especially after he/she said it was NOT in the DVD files, when he/she did obviously not know that for a fact
Whatever
Eta its also a bit rich to be accused of sarcasm when so many here including the accuser partake in that and snide remarks all the time, pot kettle basically
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: DCI on August 02, 2013, 07:37:56 PM
Thank you Albertini. I was actually referring to the actual DVD's not McCannfiles or gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk, but never mind 8((()*/
if you mistrust mccannfiles and gerrymccannsblogs why do you quote from them and post pictures from them in one breath and in the other suggest the pictures of the bedroom on them cant be trusted? As if they made em up, when in fact theywere sourced from the DVD, the DVD for some reason which you said did NOT contain that particular photo?
i provided you will ALL links
backtracking now? >@@(*&)
Do you think Pamalam who runs the blogs site doctors photos? how can she? When her photos contain links to the dvd images @)(++(*
And if it were not for people like her and others, you would have nothing to link to, a bit of gratitude wouldnt go amiss here either
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on August 03, 2013, 02:13:03 PM
Where did this blue tennis bag myth originate?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: DCI on August 03, 2013, 02:45:50 PM
As I stated on last page, Carana, but its been deleted for some unknown reason >@@(*&). It was Sky's Martin Brunt. I will find the link as its in my archives, somewhere.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: faithlilly on August 03, 2013, 02:59:25 PM
As I stated on last page, Carana, but its been deleted for some unknown reason >@@(*&). It was Sky's Martin Brunt. I will find the link as its in my archives, somewhere.
I believe it was Martin Brunt's Sky special 2007.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: DCI on August 03, 2013, 03:03:36 PM
Here it is Carana 8((()*/
We have been told there is a missing blue tennis bag, or words to that effect. Then all the papers followed suit.
Madeleine McCann - The Mystery Sky News 24.12.07
Fast forward > 7.55
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mo Stache on August 03, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: John on August 03, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
A tennis bag is quite unique in that it is long enough to accommodate racquets and their holders. That holdall shown at the station and later sitting on the table certainly wouldn't fit into that category.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: DCI on August 03, 2013, 05:34:16 PM
A tennis bag is quite unique in that it is long enough to accommodate racquets and their holders. That holdall shown at the station and later sitting on the table certainly wouldn't fit into that category.
The holdall at the station, is not the one on the table John.
FWIW and for info,that cant be the same bag, there is no mass area beyond the silver piece whichever way you view it, the tag sits right on the edge of the case, unlike the one in the wardrobe
@carana, different peoples minds work in different ways, i offered a post earlier in the thread suggesting how
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on August 03, 2013, 07:40:34 PM
@ Red
Ok, I'll have a look back. Maybe I'm colour-blind.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 03, 2013, 07:47:36 PM
The PJ pictures werent the clearest sometimes after being reproduced in the DVD, easy to think black is navy blue eg, and vice versa
I have to say if you look at the bigger picture of the wardrobe the bag in there appears to have brown handles against a darker contrast of black or blue of the bag itself.
Looking at those handles i think it is safe to rule the case out as it doesnt have handles. Also the bag photographed on the table doesnt appear to have the same brown handles as the bag in the wardrobe.
I agree the bag in the wardrobe could be either black or navy.
However i think if you look at the bigger image here:
I have to say if you look at the bigger picture of the wardrobe the bag in there appears to have brown handles against a darker contrast of black or blue of the bag itself.
Looking at those handles i think it is safe to rule the case out as it doesnt have handles. Also the bag photographed on the table doesnt appear to have the same brown handles as the bag in the wardrobe.
I agree the bag in the wardrobe could be either black or navy.
However i think if you look at the bigger image here:
It is clear the bag in the wardrobe has brown edging and handles.
Its either my eyesight or my tablet not showing it clear, I cant see any handles or brown. Any case if the theory is Gerry used that bag to carry a dead Madeleine to wherever, why would he bring it back? or is the theory she could have been inside it at the time? That night when photographed? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Albertini on August 04, 2013, 04:56:13 PM
Its either my eyesight or my tablet not showing it clear, I cant see any handles or brown. Any case if the theory is Gerry used that bag to carry a dead Madeleine to wherever, why would he bring it back? or is the theory she could have been inside it at the time? That night when photographed? >@@(*&)
It does on my 18" widescreen laptop, it's quite clear the brown edging and handles.
One theory is perhaps there was a body in the bag then, but i think that is unlikely.
Another is that it was used as a storage option, hence the cadaver alert there.
You also have the George Brooks statement saying he saw a couple with a child about 6:00 the following morning which is around the same time Kate says they resumed their search.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 04, 2013, 05:04:31 PM
It does on my 18" widescreen laptop, it's quite clear the brown edging and handles.
One theory is perhaps there was a body in the bag then, but i think that is unlikely.
Another is that it was used as a storage option, hence the cadaver alert there.
You also have the George Brooks statement saying he saw a couple with a child about 6:00 the following morning which is around the same time Kate says they resumed their search.
Whats Brooks statement to do with the bag?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Albertini on August 04, 2013, 05:10:34 PM
Well, if the body was stored in the bag on the night of the 3rd and as we know the parents left their apartment to resume their search at 6:00 then we have Brooks spotting a couple with a child at 6:00 am.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Benice on August 04, 2013, 05:27:00 PM
Its either my eyesight or my tablet not showing it clear, I cant see any handles or brown. Any case if the theory is Gerry used that bag to carry a dead Madeleine to wherever, why would he bring it back? or is the theory she could have been inside it at the time? That night when photographed? >@@(*&)
Surely that photograph was taken by the police?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 04, 2013, 06:07:54 PM
Well, if the body was stored in the bag on the night of the 3rd and as we know the parents left their apartment to resume their search at 6:00 then we have Brooks spotting a couple with a child at 6:00 am.
Sorry, I still dont understand the connection with the bag, unless you are saying Maddie was in the bag in the wardrobe all night and when they moved their stuff to their next flat, they took it, but I think their changing flats and being allowed to take their stuff was well later than 6 am 4thMay, I could be wrong
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on August 04, 2013, 06:08:39 PM
I didn't quite understand what you meant when you said:-
'' or is the theory she could have been inside it at the time? That night when photographed?''
That sounded to me as if you thought she was inside the bag when the photo was taken. But as you know it was taken by a police officer then I obviously misunderstood your post.
As it was a photograph taken by a police photographer - the bag was effectively in 'police custody' at the time and had probably been seen by various policemen who would remember whether they saw a tennis bag in 5A. And surely they would know who took it away and where it went to?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 04, 2013, 10:20:44 PM
I think the answer to the question is no.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 21, 2014, 08:59:59 PM
Eddie went straight for the parents wardrobe specifically alerting the spot where a (now missing) blue sports bag sat.
What's chilling is that Cadaver only occurs when the decomposition process has begun.
Which means in turn that Madeleine laid in that bag in that wardrobe for long enough to start to decompose. In a climate such as the Algarve this was probably reasonably quick....say a couple of hours.
Madeleine was already deceased when she disappeared.
Cuddle cat proves that.
no evidence of blue sports bag ever existing..alert to cuddlecat proves nothing..far from it...it isn't even evidence never mind proof...according to Grime
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:08:47 PM
no evidence of blue sports bag ever existing..alert to cuddlecat proves nothing..far from it...it isn't even evidence never mind proof...according to Grime
How can you be so adamant when it's clear you only have a nodding acquaintance with this case?
One blue sports bag.... ... The video of Grime and Eddie shows Eddie going straight to that particular shelf and barking his head off.
Again I recommend watching that video repeatedly in slow motion. What does Eddie sniff at immediatly before he alerts? Is it the shelf where the big luggage bag had been? Actually No. When he barks Eddie has just sniffed on the shelf below where the pile of clothes had been.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:16:41 PM
Again I recommend watching that video repeatedly in slow motion. What does Eddie sniff at immediatly before he alerts? Is it the shelf where the big luggage bag had been? Actually No. When he barks Eddie has just sniffed on the shelf below where the pile of clothes had been.
Yes that is correct but those pile of clothes could have been emptied from a bag that was originally stored on that shelf where the scent was found?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:20:15 PM
you are having a laugh aren't you..wheres the blue sports bag
Pedantics about the various inaccurate usages of the term "sports bag" aside, the photo shows a large luggage bag (actually it is a sort of hybrid between a bag and a case) which was removed on Saturday.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 21, 2014, 09:25:03 PM
Can you see a blue sports bag in the picture...if you can..then the answers yes
Because you can't see something at a particular moment doesn't prove it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:32:47 PM
From the mouth of Goncalo -
In that place the body would always decay. The issue with the bag is the following, Gerald McCann said at one point in time that he did not have any sports bag. Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment [rented by the McCanns/5A] immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour. Thus, those photographs exist, contrary to what anyone can say that they did not own a sports bag – the sports bag was there. A sports bag, even though there wasn't any brand like "Adidas" in the bag, but it was a bag of that kind. So, what happened to that bag, what took place next, other situations ensued relatively to another bag, something that it's not worth mentioning now here, there are people who also talk about a bag...
Don't forget, Goncalo's version of the investigation has been ruled a faithful and accurate one by the Portugese Supreme Court.
There was a blue sports bag, now there isnt.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 21, 2014, 09:35:40 PM
There is a missing blue sports bag. Gerry denied even owning one yet there it is in the photo.
it might come as a shock to you but an alert by the evrd dog does not signify the previous presence of a corpse ...according to Grime who is the expert...that means there is no proof maddie died in the appt...try and stick to the known facts
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 09:37:43 PM
dave1 is correct, it is not a "sports bag" Except in the vague sense that some UK peeps call any luggage bag a sports bag. It is a luggage bag/case, I mean one of those bags which maintains its rectangular shape when carried.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:39:03 PM
it might come as a shock to you but an alert by the evrd dog does not signify the previous presence of a corpse ...according to Grime who is the expert...that means there is no proof maddie died in the appt...try and stick to the known facts
Proven wrong on the sports bag so now you circle back to insult Eddie.
What happened to Grime being inaccurate? Why is he now quoted as a source when you've just spent the entire thread bashing him?
Amaral called it a sports bag. I call it a sports bag. He even said its similar to an Adidas bag but without the logo. Its a sports bag.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on February 21, 2014, 09:40:24 PM
In that place the body would always decay. The issue with the bag is the following, Gerald McCann said at one point in time that he did not have any sports bag. Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment [rented by the McCanns/5A] immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour. Thus, those photographs exist, contrary to what anyone can say that they did not own a sports bag – the sports bag was there. A sports bag, even though there wasn't any brand like "Adidas" in the bag, but it was a bag of that kind. So, what happened to that bag, what took place next, other situations ensued relatively to another bag, something that it's not worth mentioning now here, there are people who also talk about a bag...
Don't forget, Goncalo's version of the investigation has been ruled a faithful and accurate one by the Portugese Supreme Court.
There was a blue sports bag, now there isnt.
i Thanks for that quote, not seen it before, I always wondered what the colour of the bag in the wardrobe was, seemed black to me but mr Amaral will have seen the orignal photos
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 21, 2014, 09:41:48 PM
In that place the body would always decay. The issue with the bag is the following, Gerald McCann said at one point in time that he did not have any sports bag. Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment [rented by the McCanns/5A] immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour. Thus, those photographs exist, contrary to what anyone can say that they did not own a sports bag – the sports bag was there. A sports bag, even though there wasn't any brand like "Adidas" in the bag, but it was a bag of that kind. So, what happened to that bag, what took place next, other situations ensued relatively to another bag, something that it's not worth mentioning now here, there are people who also talk about a bag...
Don't forget, Goncalo's version of the investigation has been ruled a faithful and accurate one by the Portugese Supreme Court.
There was a blue sports bag, now there isnt.
It may come as another surprise to you that no court has declared amarals book totally accurate..obviously if you have the ruling that declares the book totally accurate please produce it...otherwise stick to the known facts and stop, making things up
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 21, 2014, 09:43:36 PM
It may come as another surprise to you that no court has declared amarals book totally accurate..obviously if you have the ruling that declares the book totally accurate please produce it...otherwise stick to the known facts and stop, making things up
no court was asked to do so but the court that DID decide said it was faithful to the investigation, nit pickers aside
@)(++(*
More pathetic shenanigans
Is every sentence in kate mccanns book truthful? Of course it isnt!
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:50:43 PM
It may come as another surprise to you that no court has declared amarals book totally accurate..obviously if you have the ruling that declares the book totally accurate please produce it...otherwise stick to the known facts and stop, making things up
It isn't Amaral who is lying and making things up.
Yet again, insult instead of intelligent response.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: VIXTE on February 21, 2014, 09:53:05 PM
I have never bashed grime..stick to the facts and stop making things up..
@)(++(*
That described is the easiest PR tactics.. it existed even in the Old Greece.. it is pushing into talking about 'that' instead of talking about something else..
or as they said ' don't feed a troll'
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 10:06:58 PM
In the quote above, Mr Amaral asks "So, what happened to that bag, what took place next?" All I know is it was removed from that apartment on the 5th.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 10:19:58 PM
What I don't understand is why Mr Amaral was unaware what happened next with that big bag. Surely permission must have been obtained from the PJ before going in to get it?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 21, 2014, 10:23:41 PM
Because you can't see something at a particular moment doesn't prove it doesn't exist.
The fact that you avoided the answer PROVES it doesn't exist. But one of your supporters has said its not exactly a sports bag its a small case...and its not blue ..its dark blue...very dark blue..very, very dark blue...in fact almost black.
So I stand corrected...the blue sports bag does exist... I didn't see it though because its a black suitcase..my mistake
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: VIXTE on February 21, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
The blue bag claim is ridiculous.. the fantasy world..
If it had any significance it would be taken into account long ago.. many professionals worked on this case..
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 21, 2014, 10:31:29 PM
The other luggage bag is missing from 5A photos. Try and find it. I wonder what those pile of clothes on shelf was inside originally.
They came to PDL with 5 bags.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 10:35:07 PM
As I said it is a bag but it also looks like a case. BTW there was someone posting on spanish language sites in Aug/Sept 2007 (long before any rumours of this bag existed) referring to a bag of this colour and type.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: VIXTE on February 21, 2014, 10:35:17 PM
Do you really think the PJ and their UK helpers at the time were that stupid that they left it for YOU now to discover that?
No they would have looked into it as there were reports that they were looking for a missing bag and Kate's book eyewitness who claimed to have seen them acting suspiciously with a big black bag.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: VIXTE on February 21, 2014, 10:45:13 PM
No they would have looked into it as there were reports that they were looking for a missing bag and Kate's book eyewitness who claimed to have seen them acting suspiciously with a big black bag.
SO, you think this wasn't investigated thoroughly ? Why don't you ask them? We live in a democratic world and the SY is at our service... same for PJ in Portugal...
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 21, 2014, 10:48:22 PM
No they would have looked into it as there were reports that they were looking for a missing bag and Kate's book eyewitness who claimed to have seen them acting suspiciously with a big black bag.
so its a big black bag..not the blue sports bag in the photo
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 21, 2014, 10:52:00 PM
so its a big black bag..not the blue sports bag in the photo
I don't know if the missing bag is a black one but there's a luggage bag missing from 5A photos. 2 luggage tags - only blue one seen in wardrobe. other one is missing in photos. So that pile of clothes on shelf becomes interesting. Were they originally in missing bag?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 11:11:15 PM
That luggage bag/case is dark enough blue that it might be described by a witness as either blue, or black, IMO, depends on the light conditions. So IF the sighting of a person with a "black" bag is of the same bag, it was most likely at nighttime.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 11:13:26 PM
Plainly its cocktail hour in the UK.
8-)(--)
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 11:28:57 PM
That luggage bag/case is dark enough blue that it might be described by a witness as either blue, or black, IMO, depends on the light conditions. So IF the sighting of a person with a "black" bag is of the same bag, it was most likely at nighttime.
Yes could be. That white bag Emma Knight was carrying the next day isn't seen in any 5A photos. They need to check airport cctv to find that other bag. It needs to be found to confirm whether it's black, white or whatever.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Benice on February 21, 2014, 11:31:41 PM
Also according to Grime, Eddie barking near the wardrobe does not mean a cadaverscent originated at that spot because it can drift and so could just have drifted there from elsewhere. But what does he know - he's only the expert.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 22, 2014, 08:20:45 AM
Also according to Grime, Eddie barking near the wardrobe does not mean a cadaverscent originated at that spot because it can drift and so could just have drifted there from elsewhere. But what does he know - he's only the expert.
Any expert will put caveats around their work. Just because they do that doesn't imply that those caveats are the most likely cause or result.
It's like saying that Aspirin causes cerebral microbleeds just because that is one of the many low probability outcomes.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Benice on February 22, 2014, 10:46:12 AM
Any expert will put caveats around their work. Just because they do that doesn't imply that those caveats are the most likely cause or result.
It's like saying that Aspirin causes cerebral microbleeds just because that is one of the many low probability outcomes.
But without corroborating evidence - of which there is none - the info from Grime does invalidate any claim that cadaverscent MUST have originally come from the wardrobe or from anything inside the wardrobe. Only 'pure speculation' is possible in that respect IMO.
As far as I am concerned the bag in the wardrobe is not sinister in any way. Any such bag could easily have been identified by the PJ from amongst the McCanns luggage if necessary. All the PJ had to do was to show them the photo and ask them to produce that particular bag. One can only assume that wasn't done.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 22, 2014, 10:58:09 AM
But without corroborating evidence - of which there is none - the info from Grime does invalidate any claim that cadaverscent MUST have originally come from the wardrobe or from anything inside the wardrobe. Only 'pure speculation' is possible in that respect IMO.
Hmmm, I agree the MUST is incorrect. It is most likely to have come from somewhere close to the alert.
Quote
As far as I am concerned the bag in the wardrobe is not sinister in any way. Any such bag could easily have been identified by the PJ from amongst the McCanns luggage if necessary. All the PJ had to do was to show them the photo and ask them to produce that particular bag. One can only assume that wasn't done.
Not a fan of the bag theory myself.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 22, 2014, 01:11:35 PM
Mr Grime says clearly that the first alert (whether VOCs remaining on the spot or brought there by draughts) is not in the cupboard, but in the corner of that cupboard with the wall.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Eleanor on February 22, 2014, 02:12:54 PM
Wasn't someone seen acting suspiciously with a black bag in The Cipriano Affair? So many similarities in the two Cases that we wouldn't want to miss one.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Benice on February 22, 2014, 04:25:30 PM
Mr Grime says clearly that the first alert (whether VOCs remaining on the spot or brought there by draughts) is not in the cupboard, but in the corner of that cupboard with the wall.
Where does he say that Anne? plz.
Quote from Martin Grime re the bedroom alert - followed by the Sofa:-
The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible evidence to be located only the remaining scent.
The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely presence of human blood.
Unquote
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Redblossom on February 22, 2014, 04:37:21 PM
Wasn't someone seen acting suspiciously with a black bag in The Cipriano Affair? So many similarities in the two Cases that we wouldn't want to miss one.
There is no similarity in the two cases
In one a four yr old was put to bed and left in an unlocked apartment open to all and sundry with intermittent checks In the other a 7/8 yr old was sent out after dark on her own to go buy food, and not even just down the road but a good stretch!
The only similarity is the carelessness and blaseness of the parents
PS there is a forum for the Cipriano case, wouldnt want to get accused of derailing here would we
8((()*/
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on February 23, 2014, 12:46:47 AM
Some small bags were removed on the 4th. The two large bags were removed on the 5th.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2014, 12:23:57 PM
Two main luggage bags were on the plane to PDL. Only the dark blue suitcase bag is seen in 5A crime scene photos. There were 3 smaller carry on bags - red and green rucksacks and black carry bag. Two seen in boarding plane footage when Madeleine tripped on steps. Airport CCTV should confirm the other main luggage bag. There's a pile of clothes that could've been emptied from a bag on the wardrobe shelf where Eddie sniffed and bark alerted. That connects. That unidentified bag could be an important part of the case.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2014, 12:58:11 PM
There still seems to be no evidence that a large bag/suitcase had disappeared.
One photo taken on the night by the PT forensic guys showed what does appear to be a bag in the cupboard, which doesn't appear in the photos the next day.
Either this was a bag/case used to pack up necessities when they were moved out that night, or there was no security and anyone could have accessed that apartment following their evacuation from the apartment.
Which is it?
What looks like a similar smallish case is in the photos concerning the villa objects taken for sniffing.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2014, 01:14:58 PM
There still seems to be no evidence that a large bag/suitcase had disappeared.
One photo taken on the night by the PT forensic guys showed what does appear to be a bag in the cupboard, which doesn't appear in the photos the next day.
Either this was a bag/case used to pack up necessities when they were moved out that night, or there was no security and anyone could have accessed that apartment following their evacuation from the apartment. Which is it?
What looks like a similar smallish case is in the photos concerning the villa objects taken for sniffing.
LOL, the burglars came back & nicked a bag when no one was looking.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2014, 01:32:11 PM
There still seems to be no evidence that a large bag/suitcase had disappeared.
One photo taken on the night by the PT forensic guys showed what does appear to be a bag in the cupboard, which doesn't appear in the photos the next day.
Either this was a bag/case used to pack up necessities when they were moved out that night, or there was no security and anyone could have accessed that apartment following their evacuation from the apartment.
Which is it?
What looks like a similar smallish case is in the photos concerning the villa objects taken for sniffing.
They need to identify the other main luggage bag that was missing from the crime scene photos first. A bag can leave a place and come back again so it later doesn't seem to be missing. But it could have been used that night. That's why you have to investigate it. Kate claimed a witness saw them acting suspiciously with a big black bag. Who is this witness? A big dark blue bag was seen in the wardrobe. Now they need to identify the other bag? Airport CCTV footage >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2014, 01:38:26 PM
They need to identify the other main luggage bag that was missing from the crime scene photos first. A bag can leave a place and come back again so it later doesn't seem to be missing. But it could have been used that night. That's why you have to investigate it. Kate claimed a witness saw them acting suspiciously with a big black bag. Who is this witness? A big dark blue bag was seen in the wardrobe. Now they need to identify the other bag? Airport CCTV footage >@@(*&)
The Met would never have thought to check luggage of course....
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: jassi on July 26, 2014, 02:03:02 PM
I suppose it would depend how thorough they wanted to be.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2014, 02:03:32 PM
The Met would never have thought to check luggage of course....
Airport CCTV should've been examined in 2007 when Mark Harrison suggested that a bag may have been used to conceal and remove a body from the crime scene.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2014, 02:47:44 PM
Airport CCTV should've been examined in 2007 when Mark Harrison suggested that a bag may have been used to conceal and remove a body from the crime scene.
Where did he state that?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2014, 04:12:48 PM
Any investigator would follow the possibility that a bag was used to conceal and remove the missing child from the crime scene. It's not rocket science. Recent case Mikaeel Kular (RIP) was concealed in a suitcase and removed from the crime scene and moved in the boot of the car.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2014, 04:17:29 PM
Any investigator would follow the possibility that a bag was used to conceal and remove the missing child from the crime scene. It's not rocket science. Recent case Mikaeel Kular (RIP) was concealed in a suitcase and removed from the crime scene and moved in the boot of the car.
Poor little Mikaeel. I've no intention of bringing his tragic case into this discussion, poor little chap. RIP, little one.
Back on topic, you said: "when MH suggested that a bag may have been used to conceal and remove a body from the crime scene."
When did he suggest this?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2014, 04:25:35 PM
Why don't you ask him? Amaral claimed he put forward that theory in discussions. I don't think all private discussions about the case are written down in the files. But it would be extremely foolish to discard the possibility of a bag being used to conceal and remove a missing person. There was a pile of clothes dumped on the shelf where Eddie alerted. Bags are stored in wardrobes, clothes are taken away on holiday in bags - go figure.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2014, 04:31:08 PM
Why don't you ask him? Amaral claimed he put forward that theory in discussions. I don't think all private discussions about the case are written down in the files. But it would be extremely foolish to discard the possibility of a bag being used to conceal and remove a missing person. There was a pile of clothes dumped on the shelf where Eddie alerted. Bags are stored in wardrobes, clothes are taken away on holiday in bags - go figure.
You really can't bring alleged conversations which have no provenance into the debate; it's called 'hearsay' and has no standing whatsoever. You will have to do better than that.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2014, 04:32:29 PM
You really can't bring alleged conversations which have no provenance into the debate; it's called 'hearsay' and has no standing whatsoever. You will have to do better than that.
Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag . (G. Amaral)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id408.html
"There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that." (David Payne)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on July 26, 2014, 05:27:13 PM
Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag . (G. Amaral)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id408.html
"There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that." (David Payne)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html
1485 ”What about a kit bag? Would they have a kit bag with them?”
Reply ”Err he certainly didn’t have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn’t have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when I played…”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn’t a big tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything…”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”It would have been something that had their water in.”
1485 ”So as opposed to a bag it’d be something like a rucksack, if at all?”
Reply ”If, if at all, yeah.”
1485 ”Yeah.”
Reply ”Yeah.”
1485 ”And is that the same for Kate?”
Reply ”Yeah, yeah.”
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id251.html
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2014, 10:20:42 PM
The last I see of the large dark bag is in the 5th May photo, on the right. It is not in the gym video is it?. And not in the villa video - do you see it in any room there?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: misty on August 18, 2014, 11:04:33 PM
The last I see of the large dark bag is in the 5th May photo, on the right. It is not in the gym video is it?. And not in the villa video - do you see it in any room there?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: misty on August 18, 2014, 11:58:16 PM
I think Pegasus found the best still of the single suitcase - that was the one I was looking for but the video is such a mish-mash mess. It doesn't show all the clothes taken out of that case - but it looks a pretty full case compared to the items shown (including Gerry's fleece?) before it cuts. That's the case imo which is shown in the crime scene photo 4/5/07 in the wardrobe & long since mythically described as the blue tennis bag.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2014, 12:19:54 AM
I think Pegasus found the best still of the single suitcase - that was the one I was looking for but the video is such a mish-mash mess. It doesn't show all the clothes taken out of that case - but it looks a pretty full case compared to the items shown (including Gerry's fleece?) before it cuts. That's the case imo which is shown in the crime scene photo 4/5/07 in the wardrobe & long since mythically described as the blue tennis bag.
I don't think it is the bag from the wardrobe. I think it may possibly be a case taken from the guest bedroom in the villa and owned by the guests (mothers parents) but I need to check.
Anyway do peeps agree that this dark bag/case in adult bedroom wardrobe early morning 4th May http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/10VOLUMEXaPage2562.jpg
is the exact same dark bag/case (in right hand of the carrying person on your right) removed morning 5th May http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4989.0;attach=4207;image ?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: misty on August 19, 2014, 02:07:28 AM
I don't think it is the bag from the wardrobe. I think it may possibly be a case taken from the guest bedroom in the villa and owned by the guests (mothers parents) but I need to check.
Anyway do peeps agree that this dark bag/case in adult bedroom wardrobe early morning 4th May http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/10VOLUMEXaPage2562.jpg
is the exact same dark bag/case (in right hand of the carrying person on your right) removed morning 5th May http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4989.0;attach=4207;image ?
So we must consider adding cross-contamination of the clothes from another outside source?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Anna on August 19, 2014, 04:45:23 PM
I don't think it is the bag from the wardrobe. I think it may possibly be a case taken from the guest bedroom in the villa and owned by the guests (mothers parents) but I need to check.
Anyway do peeps agree that this dark bag/case in adult bedroom wardrobe early morning 4th May http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/10VOLUMEXaPage2562.jpg
is the exact same dark bag/case (in right hand of the carrying person on your right) removed morning 5th May http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4989.0;attach=4207;image ?
Sorry to be off topic, but answering a question only, then back on topic The photos in inspection, show 2 cases. One from twins room containing lots( the large one that looks very full) in the video and a smaller one from the guest room(empty) Neither of them was a bag. although the list shows there was bags in the inspection. Neither of these cases were the so called, tennis bag IMO, but surely the large one is what Gerry was carrying from 5A on the photo that you posted. If he had that large suitcase, why would he buy another? IIRC Gerry said that there was a suitcase and dirty washing in the wardrobe that Eddie alerted too. Yet suitcase clean?
4. Then the suitcase labelled 'Twins bedroom' was inspected, followed by two sets of inspections of its contents due to the large number of individual pieces it contained: the blood dog inspected [the first set] between 00h12 and 00h15, and then [the second set] between 00h22 and 00h24 - both without any result. The cadaver dog inspected [set one] between 00h16 and 00h17, then [set two] between 00h25 and 00h26, also without any result.
5. An empty suitcase labelled 'Visitors bedroom' was inspected, along with sundry clothing packed in a box labelled Outside Clothes rack. Between 00h40 and 00h43 the blood dog inspected without any result, and in its turn the cadaver dog inspected between 00h44 and 00h45, also without any result. 6. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 1" was inspected by the blood dog between 00h51 and 00h55, while the cadaver dog inspected it between 00h56 and 0057 without any result from either dog. because there were so many pieces of clothing in the box a second inspection was conducted between 01h04 and 01h07 by the blood dog, and between 01h08 and 01h09 by the cadaver dog, [again] without any result from either dog.
Looks to me like a bag with a child's trainers alongside and clothing pulled out to allow the dogs access?
looks like the same bag on floor of 5A photographed by scenes of crime crew... and the elusive navy bag that they boarded the plane with..............Same bag
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: misty on August 20, 2014, 06:59:23 PM
Please look at Brietta's post #68. The pictures show 2 entirely different cases (note the positions of the labels) and, to me, the lower picture shows a very dark navy case. There were TWO cases taken from the villa to the gymnasium, as per page 2125 of the PJ files. 08 Processos Vol VIII Page 2125
TRANSLATED BY INES VOLUME VIIIa_Processo_2125
From: Inspector Joao Carlos
TERMS OF DELIVERY
On 3rd August 2007 in Praia da Luz, Gerlad McCann, resident in Rua das Flores 27 appeared before me Joao Carlos and Inspector Freitas according to written dispatch?and delivered the following:
1. One soft toy, made of pink coloured material, make Cuddle Cut with a wooden rosary and a green ribbon. 2. Four boxes containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags. 3. Two suitcases containing clothes, shoes, suitcases and travel bags. 4. One Bible. 5. Two diaries. 6. One note pad. 7. One pair of rubber gloves.
The present Terms of Delivery were elaborated and will be signed.
Signed
Gerald McCann
And from the above, we can deduce that there must have been at least 4 suitcases inspected by the dogs - and none produced any odour for the dogs to react to or it would have been shown to the public.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Anna on August 20, 2014, 07:49:25 PM
Pegasus, I know you are very good at working things out ,but I disagree about the case in the wardrobe. I think it I the small one with wheels and the one being carried away from 5A. See wardrobe photo, where I think that suitcase is put on the shelf sideways and shows part of the little silver motive on the top near the pocket on the front of this case. coloured motive that is on the photos of the small case in Gym. That pocket on front is also visible in the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 20, 2014, 09:33:18 PM
Pegasus, I know you are very good at working things out ,but I disagree about the case in the wardrobe. I think it I the small one with wheels and the one being carried away from 5A. See wardrobe photo, where I think that suitcase is put on the shelf sideways and shows part of the little silver motive on the top near the pocket on the front of this case. coloured motive that is on the photos of the small case in Gym. That pocket on front is also visible in the wardrobe.
I agree absolutely that the large dark bag in the apartment wardrobe on the 4th is exactly the same large dark bag which was carried away from the apartment on the 5th. However I think it is totally different to the small wheeled case photographed 3 months later in the villa and in the gym - the handle alignment is totally different for a start, just my opinion.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2014, 05:02:48 PM
Any investigator would follow the possibility that a bag was used to conceal and remove the missing child from the crime scene. It's not rocket science. Recent case Mikaeel Kular (RIP) was concealed in a suitcase and removed from the crime scene and moved in the boot of the car.
The method used in that Edinburgh case was reportedly: 1. wrap in duvet cover 2. place duvet cover in suitcase 3. transport suitcase to different location 4. place suitcase under bush 5. place branches over suitcase
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 24, 2014, 02:23:35 PM
The method used in that Edinburgh case was reportedly: 1. wrap in duvet cover 2. place duvet cover in suitcase 3. transport suitcase to different location 4. place suitcase under bush 5. place branches over suitcase
If a bag was used to get Madeleine away from the crime scene it didn't stay with the child because Smithman was seen carrying her. You need to identify the 2nd luggage bag first. Until that happens everything is speculation. The only way they can do that is by examining airport CCTV for the 2nd main luggage bag that was on the plane. One seen in wardrobe and 3 carry on bags. Kate's green rucksack and Gerry's red one and his black carry on one seen in airport boarding plane footage when Madeleine trips on the steps.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Anna on August 24, 2014, 03:12:59 PM
I agree absolutely that the large dark bag in the apartment wardrobe on the 4th is exactly the same large dark bag which was carried away from the apartment on the 5th. However I think it is totally different to the small wheeled case photographed 3 months later in the villa and in the gym - the handle alignment is totally different for a start, just my opinion.
If you enlarge the photo of the case/s in the wardrobe, I think you will agree that there is two suitcases ,probably empty. One empty suitcase would not be so thick as to take up a shelf height approx. 16-18 inches, IMO. I calculated this by the high doors and ceiling and officer in a photo of the wardrobe elsewhere( your photo I think) They left UK with 2 suitcases and arrived back with 4 black suitcases
If you enlarge the photo of the case/s in the wardrobe, I think you will agree that there is two suitcases ,probably empty. One empty suitcase would not be so thick as to take up a shelf height approx. 16-18 inches, IMO. I calculated this by the high doors and ceiling and officer in a photo of the wardrobe elsewhere( your photo I think) They left UK with 2 suitcases and arrived back with 4 black suitcases
The method used in that Edinburgh case was reportedly: 1. wrap in duvet cover 2. place duvet cover in suitcase 3. transport suitcase to different location 4. place suitcase under bush 5. place branches over suitcase
I don’t think that the Edinburgh tragedy has any parallels to whatever happened in Praia Da Luz; and in my opinion is an inappropriate comparison.
Subsequent information presented at his mother’s trial supports that Madeleine’s and Mikaeel’s lifestyles were wholly dissimilar; similarly there can be no comparison made between the parenting these two children received.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
If you enlarge the photo of the case/s in the wardrobe, I think you will agree that there is two suitcases ,probably empty. One empty suitcase would not be so thick as to take up a shelf height approx. 16-18 inches, IMO. I calculated this by the high doors and ceiling and officer in a photo of the wardrobe elsewhere( your photo I think) They left UK with 2 suitcases and arrived back with 4 black suitcases
The dark luggage item in the wardrobe is not a traditional suitcase, nor is it a floppy holdall bag, it is a more modern piece of luggage - I would describe it as a large luggage bag which has some degree of strength in its base and sides so that it can maintain its 3D rectangular shape fairly well even when it is empty.
The height of this luggage item in the wardrobe photo matches the height of the exact same luggage item in the outdoor photo "suitcases2.jpg" (see a few posts up), where you can estimate the luggage height by comparision with the human figure height, just as you did with the wardrobe photo. This is how this luggage item left the apartment.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2014, 01:45:49 AM
The dark luggage item in the wardrobe is not a traditional suitcase, nor is it a floppy holdall bag, it is a more modern piece of luggage - I would describe it as a large luggage bag which has some degree of strength in its base and sides so that it can maintain its 3D rectangular shape fairly well even when it is empty.
The height of this luggage item in the wardrobe photo matches the height of the exact same luggage item in the outdoor photo "suitcases2.jpg" (see a few posts up), where you can estimate the luggage height by comparision with the human figure height, just as you did with the wardrobe photo. This is how this luggage item left the apartment.
Framed suitcases for flights almost invariably come in two sizes.
1) The carry on, In order to hold as much as is possible, this ideally must be as big as the regulations will allow ... so carry on suitcases tend to be almost exactly the same size
2) THe hold suitcase which usually has a weight limit of 20Kg. Again passengers want as much clothes packing space as possible conducive with the maximum weight allowance. Suitcase manufacturers have worked out the case size that holds the correct weight ... and once again the hold suitcases are more or less exactly the same size
There are exceptions but basically you have only two sizes of suitcases used .... and all suitcases tend to be these sizes.
There will be many of them around in these two more or less standard sizes. Also with such crude measuring as you describe (eyeing up from limiting sources), I think that it is a rather dicey thing to think that the two suitcases are definitely the same.
They could be, but they might not be.
Personally, with the limited view, and because of these standard dimensions, I dont think that from height and width ity is possible to judge two suitcases being the same .... unless the dimensions on the subject suitcase are very unusual.
Sorry Pegasus.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Anna on August 25, 2014, 10:15:13 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/TBuM9bX.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/8rVw6RR.jpg?1)
Photos taken on 9 April 2008. McCanns on way to Belgium to address MEP's.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2014, 12:51:15 AM
@Sadie. I think Occam would say the bag in wardrobe is the same as the carried dark bag next day. If not, where did the first go, and where did the second come from?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: sadie on August 26, 2014, 01:11:13 AM
@Sadie. I think Occam would say the bag in wardrobe is the same as the carried dark bag next day. If not, where did the first go, and where did the second come from?
Pegasus That might be right, but we dont actually know, do we?
We have too little information imo.
And with all the comings and goings, first Gerry back to the UK, then family members arriving, no doubt bringing stuff over to them, other bags might have arrived and be around after May 3rd
No harm in surmising, but harm if what is unsafe becomes a 'fact'.... so becomes a myth. I think it is important to qualify any findings that you make as being uncertain, unless you are absolutely sure.
Having said that I want you and Anna to know that I admire your dedication to digging stuff out. Well done both of you. It is not easy, I know that.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2014, 02:15:06 AM
Pegasus That might be right, but we dont actually know, do we?
We have too little information imo.
And with all the comings and goings, first Gerry back to the UK, then family members arriving, no doubt bringing stuff over to them, other bags might have arrived and be around after May 3rd
No harm in surmising, but harm if what is unsafe becomes a 'fact'.... so becomes a myth. I think it is important to qualify any findings that you make as being uncertain, unless you are absolutely sure.
Having said that I want you and Anna to know that I admire your dedication to digging stuff out. Well done both of you. It is not easy, I know that.
I think the two bags (5th) are same as the two bags (28th). In other words no bag went missing on the night of the 3rd.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2014, 03:49:04 PM
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00408/SNN2411A_280_408962a.jpg) Originally from the skynews documentary, in which an actor carries a bag away from the apartment. My opinion is 1. The bag carried by the actor is too small. 2. The bag carried by the actor is too light in weight, as you can see by the actor's walking mechanics angle etc. What do you think? Video is at http://youtu.be/Akv01Y0pfNY?t=21s from 21 seconds to 26 seconds.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pegasus on December 08, 2014, 02:14:58 AM
The two baggage identification tags (0000340816 and 0000340817) http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_06.jpg
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 30, 2017, 09:49:12 PM
Sorry to be off topic, but answering a question only, then back on topic The photos in inspection, show 2 cases. One from twins room containing lots( the large one that looks very full) in the video and a smaller one from the guest room(empty) Neither of them was a bag. although the list shows there was bags in the inspection. Neither of these cases were the so called, tennis bag IMO, but surely the large one is what Gerry was carrying from 5A on the photo that you posted. If he had that large suitcase, why would he buy another? IIRC Gerry said that there was a suitcase and dirty washing in the wardrobe that Eddie alerted too. Yet suitcase clean?
4. Then the suitcase labelled 'Twins bedroom' was inspected, followed by two sets of inspections of its contents due to the large number of individual pieces it contained: the blood dog inspected [the first set] between 00h12 and 00h15, and then [the second set] between 00h22 and 00h24 - both without any result. The cadaver dog inspected [set one] between 00h16 and 00h17, then [set two] between 00h25 and 00h26, also without any result.
5. An empty suitcase labelled 'Visitors bedroom' was inspected, along with sundry clothing packed in a box labelled Outside Clothes rack. Between 00h40 and 00h43 the blood dog inspected without any result, and in its turn the cadaver dog inspected between 00h44 and 00h45, also without any result. 6. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 1" was inspected by the blood dog between 00h51 and 00h55, while the cadaver dog inspected it between 00h56 and 0057 without any result from either dog. because there were so many pieces of clothing in the box a second inspection was conducted between 01h04 and 01h07 by the blood dog, and between 01h08 and 01h09 by the cadaver dog, [again] without any result from either dog.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 01, 2017, 04:44:51 AM
"Quote from: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 09:32:47 PM From the mouth of Goncalo -
In that place the body would always decay. The issue with the bag is the following, Gerald McCann said at one point in time that he did not have any sports bag. Mark Harrison, an English expert, who did the planning of the searches that were carried out with the CSI dogs, of the cadaver odour and blood, at the end of July, early August, puts forward that serious hypothesis - that the body was taken inside a sports bag, he speaks of a golf bag, of a sports bag – and indeed a sports bag existed. There are photographs taken inside the apartment [rented by the McCanns/5A] immediately after the disappearance, an hour later, and the sports bag is there, inside the closet and is of a darkish blue colour. Thus, those photographs exist, contrary to what anyone can say that they did not own a sports bag – the sports bag was there. A sports bag, even though there wasn't any brand like "Adidas" in the bag, but it was a bag of that kind. So, what happened to that bag, what took place next, other situations ensued relatively to another bag, something that it's not worth mentioning now here, there are people who also talk about a bag...
Don't forget, Goncalo's version of the investigation has been ruled a faithful and accurate one by the Portugese Supreme Court.
There was a blue sports bag, now there isnt."
[The original post was removed but the quote was still there. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2038.msg130651#msg130651]
Well if that quote is accurate what is Goncalo thinking? If the bag was there when the photos were taken on the early hours of the 4th and it may have had a body in it, when does he figure it was removed? If he genuinely believes the cadaver was still in the room at that time he has to rule out the Tanner and the Smith sighting as a person carrying Madeleine. Is he working with 3 or more options at this stage? 1. Possibly abducted by Tannerman. 2. Possibly abducted by Smithman. 3. Still in the apartment waiting for someone to remove the bag. It can only be the 3rd option if he could see how it was possible for someone to remove the bag without the PJ knowing it.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 01, 2017, 04:50:35 AM
In the quote above, Mr Amaral asks "So, what happened to that bag, what took place next?" All I know is it was removed from that apartment on the 5th.
I have to agree with Pegasus (maybe not about the date). The photo the next day (or whenever this photo was taken) shows the wardrobe door moved to another position and the bag is not there.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 01, 2017, 05:47:47 AM
They need to identify the other main luggage bag that was missing from the crime scene photos first. A bag can leave a place and come back again so it later doesn't seem to be missing. But it could have been used that night. That's why you have to investigate it. Kate claimed a witness saw them acting suspiciously with a big black bag. Who is this witness? A big dark blue bag was seen in the wardrobe. Now they need to identify the other bag? Airport CCTV footage >@@(*&)
Unfortunately there isn't any cites available here. How likely would it be if the McCanns secreted a cadaver out of the apartment in a big black bag that Kate would reinforce the incident by mentioning it in her book? Where is Kate quoted as claiming "a witness saw them acting suspiciously with a big black bag"? .
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 01, 2017, 11:27:48 AM
There's only one main luggage bag in the wardrobe seen in crime scene photos. The McCanns took two main luggage bags to PDL. Simple question - why is the other one missing from crime scene photos?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 01, 2017, 11:36:43 AM
There's only one main luggage bag in the wardrobe seen in crime scene photos. The McCanns took two main luggage bags to PDL. Simple question - why is the other one missing from crime scene photos?
Shall we ask the PJ?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 01, 2017, 11:54:11 AM
Unfortunately there isn't any cites available here. How likely would it be if the McCanns secreted a cadaver out of the apartment in a big black bag that Kate would reinforce the incident by mentioning it in her book? Where is Kate quoted as claiming "a witness saw them acting suspiciously with a big black bag"? .
Pathfinder do you remember about your post referred to here? Can you help me on this one?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 01, 2017, 12:30:44 PM
Sorry to be off topic, but answering a question only, then back on topic The photos in inspection, show 2 cases. One from twins room containing lots( the large one that looks very full) in the video and a smaller one from the guest room(empty) Neither of them was a bag. although the list shows there was bags in the inspection. Neither of these cases were the so called, tennis bag IMO, but surely the large one is what Gerry was carrying from 5A on the photo that you posted. If he had that large suitcase, why would he buy another? IIRC Gerry said that there was a suitcase and dirty washing in the wardrobe that Eddie alerted too. Yet suitcase clean?
4. Then the suitcase labelled 'Twins bedroom' was inspected, followed by two sets of inspections of its contents due to the large number of individual pieces it contained: the blood dog inspected [the first set] between 00h12 and 00h15, and then [the second set] between 00h22 and 00h24 - both without any result. The cadaver dog inspected [set one] between 00h16 and 00h17, then [set two] between 00h25 and 00h26, also without any result.
5. An empty suitcase labelled 'Visitors bedroom' was inspected, along with sundry clothing packed in a box labelled Outside Clothes rack. Between 00h40 and 00h43 the blood dog inspected without any result, and in its turn the cadaver dog inspected between 00h44 and 00h45, also without any result. 6. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 1" was inspected by the blood dog between 00h51 and 00h55, while the cadaver dog inspected it between 00h56 and 0057 without any result from either dog. because there were so many pieces of clothing in the box a second inspection was conducted between 01h04 and 01h07 by the blood dog, and between 01h08 and 01h09 by the cadaver dog, [again] without any result from either dog.
There's only one main luggage bag in the wardrobe seen in crime scene photos. The McCanns took two main luggage bags to PDL. Simple question - why is the other one missing from crime scene photos?
Pathy, Can it not be found in any of the crime scene photos- anywhere in the apartment?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 01, 2017, 01:13:06 PM
Pathfinder do you remember about your post referred to here? Can you help me on this one?
First he cited video footage the police had shot of the reactions of the blood and cadaver dogs in apartment 5A and also around our hire car. I would be shown this on my return to the police station, he said. Presumably repeating what he had been told by the PJ, he explained how samples from both these sites had revealed Madeleine’s blood and one of them indicated a 15 out of 19 match with her DNA. I was totally perplexed. Although this news, if true, seemed to add weight to the possibility that Madeleine had at the very least been physically harmed, unusually I didn’t dwell too much on the frightening implications. I can only assume this was because what we were being told didn’t make sense. If, as the PJ alleged, Madeleine’s blood was in the boot of our car, which we had not rented until 27 May, how on earth had it got there? Did this mean someone had planted it? I could see no other explanation. The police theory, it seemed, was that we had hidden Madeleine’s body, then moved it later, in the car, and buried it elsewhere. Next came the matter of a crumpled page the police said they had discovered in my borrowed Bible. It seemed this was felt to be highly significant because the passage on that page, in II Samuel 12, dealt with the death of a child. I knew nothing about any pages being crumpled, let alone in which part of the Bible. The fact that I had asked to see a priest on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance was also seen as evidence of guilt. What? I was beginning to find my credulity stretched to breaking point. ‘Don’t people in Portugal talk to priests in times of need?’ I asked Carlos. Apparently not. They only called for a priest when they wanted their sins to be forgiven. Good grief. This was definitely not the faith with which I was familiar. A witness claimed to have seen Gerry and me carrying a big black bag and acting suspiciously. This was absolute nonsense, but ‘evidence’ of this kind came down to one person’s word against another. And it appeared that, as far as the PJ were concerned, our word counted for little. ‘If you were Portuguese,’ Carlos said with an air of resignation, ‘this would be enough to put you in prison.’ (Madeleine by KM)
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: Carana on October 01, 2017, 01:24:38 PM
There's only one main luggage bag in the wardrobe seen in crime scene photos. The McCanns took two main luggage bags to PDL. Simple question - why is the other one missing from crime scene photos?
I haven't seen any photos of the interior of the wardrobe in the kids' room.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 01, 2017, 01:40:27 PM
I haven't seen any photos of the interior of the wardrobe in the kids' room.
The crime scene photographer should have taken a shot of anything found inside the kids wardrobe. As you can see a kids jacket hanging on the parents wardrobe door and what looks like more kids clothes on a shelf it looks like the kids wardrobe wasn't used because a cot was blocking the doors.
The crime scene photographer should have taken a shot of anything found inside the kids wardrobe. As you can see a kids jacket hanging on the parents wardrobe door and what looks like more kids clothes on a shelf it looks like the kids wardrobe wasn't used because a cot was blocking the doors.
Kids jacket hanging on parents wardrobe (http://www.mccannsnifferdogs.hol.es/Resources/in7.jpg)
"Should" being the operative word, perhaps... even if it had been found empty.
The cots could have been placed (or replaced) in their positions once items unlikely to be needed in the immediate term had already been stored in there.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 02, 2017, 11:49:20 AM
It is up to investigators to get CCTV footage to identify the second main luggage bag. 5 bags were brought to PDL.
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: sadie on October 03, 2017, 12:11:01 AM
It is up to investigators to get CCTV footage to identify the second main luggage bag. 5 bags were brought to PDL.
How do you know that 5 bags were brought to PdL PFinder?
I really cannot imagine how they managed 5 bags and three tots, but they have shown themselves very capable and efficient imo, so maybe they managed ? But how ?
Title: Re: Was there really a 'missing' luggage bag?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 03, 2017, 12:57:53 AM
@)(++(* Elementary Sadie.
Pj files: Two main baggage identification tags 340816 and 340817