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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on August 10, 2013, 06:38:19 PM
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We have come across several reports that the front door to apartment 5a was in fact open when just after 10pm Kate McCann found Madeleine had disappeared. The initial reports also contained the claim that an abductor had entered via the children's bedroom window and exited via the front door.
Gerry McCanns sister, Trish Cameron, claimed, "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
Kate McCanns father, Brian Healey, claimed, "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.topstories31
The first police statements were taken during the morning of the 4th May 2007, by which time the original story had already been changed from a forced, damaged or jemmied shutter and an open front door to a merely raised shutter and no mention of the front door whatsoever. The reference to the front door being open had for all intents and purposes been quietly dropped.
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First , Gerry never said the shutters were jemmied. as far as he was concerned the shutters couldn't be opened from the outside so saying that they had been forced open or up does not implicitly imply any damage.
you then go on to compare statements from different people who had heard things second and third hand. If this is what people are basing the fact that the McCanns lied upon it's just plain stupid.
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We have come across several reports that the front door to apartment 5a was in fact open when just after 10pm Kate McCann found Madeleine had disappeared. The initial reports also contained the claim that an abductor had entered via the children's bedroom window and exited via the front door.
Gerry McCanns sister, Trish Cameron, claimed, "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
Kate McCanns father, Brian Healey, claimed, "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.topstories31
The first police statements were taken during the morning of the 4th May 2007, by which time the original story had already been changed from a forced, damaged or jemmied shutter and an open front door to a merely raised shutter and no mention of the front door whatsoever. The reference to the front door being open had for all intents and purposes been quietly dropped.
These are media reports and full of errors, the most glaring of which is the claim that they were eating hundreds of yards away. We all know that is untrue.
Then they are third hand reports ... and we all know about the whispering game, how words get changed and becos of that, the very meaning can get changed
Then they talk about the front door. At that stage, I dont think people knew quite which was the front and which was the back. In fact, in some internet place, that situation went on until about 2 or 3 years ago. I can remember commenting on it and trying to get over to people, which was the front and which was the back. For a long time I, myself, was very confused about it
So with these three observations I think that we should read the reports, but be very cautious, keeping them in the back of our minds, but not relying on them .
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We have come across several reports that the front door to apartment 5a was in fact open when just after 10pm Kate McCann found Madeleine had disappeared. The initial reports also contained the claim that an abductor had entered via the children's bedroom window and exited via the front door.
Gerry McCanns sister, Trish Cameron, claimed, "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
Kate McCanns father, Brian Healey, claimed, "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.topstories31
The first police statements were taken during the morning of the 4th May 2007, by which time the original story had already been changed from a forced, damaged or jemmied shutter and an open front door to a merely raised shutter and no mention of the front door whatsoever. The reference to the front door being open had for all intents and purposes been quietly dropped.
The open front door was already dropped in the report the PJ inspector made after "speaking with Mr McCann" in the middle of the night. Only shutters and window open.
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The open front door was already dropped in the report the PJ inspector made after "speaking with Mr McCann" in the middle of the night. Only shutters and window open.
When you say open are you referring to open as in unlocked or open as in ajar.
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We have come across several reports that the front door to apartment 5a was in fact open when just after 10pm Kate McCann found Madeleine had disappeared. The initial reports also contained the claim that an abductor had entered via the children's bedroom window and exited via the front door.
Gerry McCanns sister, Trish Cameron, claimed, "Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and Madeleine was missing...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/leicestershire/6623127.stm
Kate McCanns father, Brian Healey, claimed, "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.topstories31
The first police statements were taken during the morning of the 4th May 2007, by which time the original story had already been changed from a forced, damaged or jemmied shutter and an open front door to a merely raised shutter and no mention of the front door whatsoever. The reference to the front door being open had for all intents and purposes been quietly dropped.
so that I understand, as regards the door you are comparing Gerrys official statement with accounts given second and third hand,by his family as reported by newspapers and using this to suggest the McCanns lied.
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The open front door was already dropped in the report the PJ inspector made after "speaking with Mr McCann" in the middle of the night. Only shutters and window open.
Can you remember which report that was in, before McSpielberg does another Toooo Lie exclusive?
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Vol I pp. 2-10
In conversation with Gerald McCann it was possible to establish the following:
They had been staying at the OC since 28th April 2007 and they were due to stay there for a week.
From 29-04-2007 he would dine with his wife at a restaurant in the OC whilst their children were a few metres away from the restaurant, in the bedroom.
They would dine at the restaurant with three other couples who were friends of theirs. Yesterday (the day of the events) they got up at 07.30 and had breakfast in the apartment. At about 09.00 they left the apartment and left the children at the creche, this creche was located inside the OC, with employees who would take care of the children until about 12.30.
After lunch, at about 14.30 the children would be dropped off back at the creche and would stay there until about 17.00.
At about 17.30 the parents would bathe the children and give them something to eat and at about 19.30 the three children were put to sleep in one of the bedrooms in the apartment.
At about 20.30 the couple left to have dinner in the restaurant.
At about 21.05 – 21.15 Gerald went to the bedroom to see the children, he saw the bedroom door was half way open which he found strange as he thought he had left it pushed to, however he entered and saw the children and saw that the window as well as the shutter were closed.
At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers.
At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange.
At the same place, at about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts and the consequent disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, at this moment the window being wide open as well as the curtains and the shutter.
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On reflection, there has been a noticeable trend to not mention the front door at any costs.
Maybe the front door was open, but maybe it didn't suit his theory, already thought out by the following morning,, (according to his book) that Kate and Gerry had dunit.
Could it have been left out of later reports to protect his theory?
Tbh, I think it is unlikely, but thought I should mention it ... in case
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Thanks Anne. 8((()*/
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Granted, stories do get confused sometimes but the reports were first hand from Gerry to his sister and from Kate to her father...both said the same thing that the front door was open.
It is quite clear they would not have claimed that the abductor came in through the window before exiting through the front door had it not been open. Consequently, if the front door had been closed they would have assumed he came in through the window and went out the same way. 8(0(*
Always remembering too that Gerry initially claimed that he used the front door to gain access to the apartment before later changing his mind to claim he used the patio door.
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Granted, stories do get confused sometimes but the reports were first hand from Gerry to his sister and from Kate to her father...both said the same thing that the front door was open.
It is quite clear they would not have claimed that the abductor came in through the window before exiting through the front door had it not been open. Consequently, if the front door had been closed they would have assumed he came in through the window and went out the same way. 8(0(*
Always remembering too that Gerry initially claimed that he used the front door to gain access to the apartment before later changing his mind to claim he used the patio door.
This front door is certainly seeing some action for a door that was never used or am i missing something??
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This front door is certainly seeing some action for a door that was never used or am i missing something??
It was used, in day time. They didn't leave the door-window slightly ajar. If the family went out this way, Mr McCann stayed behind to lock that door-window and left through the main door that at least sometimes he locked (but it seems locking it was a bit tricky, according to some earlier holidayer).
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Granted, stories do get confused sometimes but the reports were first hand from Gerry to his sister and from Kate to her father...both said the same thing that the front door was open.
It is quite clear they would not have claimed that the abductor came in through the window before exiting through the front door had it not been open. Consequently, if the front door had been closed they would have assumed he came in through the window and went out the same way. 8(0(*
Always remembering too that Gerry initially claimed that he used the front door to gain access to the apartment before later changing his mind to claim he used the patio door.
Are you sure about this. I am not saying you are wrong, but I haven't seen anything to support this.
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from the lack of input on this thread to show that the MCCanns changed their stories it seems they have been unfairly accused and have been telling the truth all along.
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I have always wondered if the family were confused by 'the door was open' comment.
The McCann's left the door to the children's bedroom open a certain amount when they left the apartment. When Kate does her check she say's the door was open more than they had left it.
Now, if this had been said on the phone by Gerry in his distraught state, it might have come out very muddled and the family got the impression that the front door was open.
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I have always wondered if the family were confused by 'the door was open' comment.
The McCann's left the door to the children's bedroom open a certain amount when they left the apartment. When Kate does her check she say's the door was open more than they had left it.
Now, if this had been said on the phone by Gerry in his distraught state, it might have come out very muddled and the family got the impression that the front door was open.
there doesnt seem to be any evidence that the McCanns lied
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Are you sure about this. I am not saying you are wrong, but I haven't seen anything to support this.
Really? This is one of the most basic facets of the case. Have you actually read the statements?:
Gerry McCann's witness statement: 04 May 2007
Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked, and went to the children's bedroom and noted that the twins and Madeleine were in perfect condition.
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open.
Kate McCann's witness statement: 04 May 2007
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Gerry McCann's witness statement: 10 May 2007
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide, and while he was entering the living room, he noticed that the children's bedroom door was not ajar as he had left it but half-way open, which he thought was strange, having then thought that possibly MADELEINE had got up to go to sleep in his bedroom, so as to avoid the noise produced by her siblings. Therefore, he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and he is certain of this, that the three were deeply asleep. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, then went to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the shutters, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the living room.
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from the lack of input on this thread to show that the MCCanns changed their stories it seems they have been unfairly accused and have been telling the truth all along.
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Haha!! So your argument is that because no other posters on a Sunday have replied to this thread on a discussion forum, this represents evidence that the mcCann's must have been telling the truth??
What kind of reasoning is that?
To use your own words, and i'll be blunt...stupid!
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Are you sure about this. I am not saying you are wrong, but I haven't seen anything to support this.
Why do you think we have discussed why he took the long way round? It's all in the files if you care to look.
How anyone could get the issue of the doors so wrong just hours after the event is beyond me. It wasn't as if he just got the doors mixed up as the patio door could not be locked or unlocked from the outside. This is but one reason why the McCanns credibility is still being challenged.
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Why do you think we have discussed why he took the long way round? It's all in the files if you care to look.
How anyone could get the issue of the doors so wrong just hours after the event is beyond me. It wasn't as if he just got the doors mixed up as the patio door could not be locked or unlocked from the outside. This is but one reason why the McCanns credibility is still being challenged.
That's one reason why there should be recorded verbatim statements.
Why would he mention that that Matt had gone in via the unlocked patio door in the same statement?
Do you discount a simple communication misunderstanding?
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That's one reason why there should be recorded verbatim statements.
Why would he mention that that Matt had gone in via the unlocked patio door in the same statement?
Do you discount a simple communication misunderstanding?
Gerry signed the statement translation as a true account of what he'd said.
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That's one reason why there should be recorded verbatim statements.
Why would he mention that that Matt had gone in via the unlocked patio door in the same statement?
Do you discount a simple communication misunderstanding?
Because he hadn't got his story straight, that's why.
nope, no chance of a simple communication misunderstanding:
Statement 10th May
Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
He knew exactly what he said.
Why can you not accept one thing,not one iota of what they said to be at all suspicious?
You can believe the abduction theory without excusing or trying to find reason in every single thing. It is perfectly fine to say" hum, i do believe the child was abducted but this element of the statements are strange and don't add up".
Instead we see a constant stream of spurious excuses for every single discrepancy.
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I have always wondered if the family were confused by 'the door was open' comment.
The McCann's left the door to the children's bedroom open a certain amount when they left the apartment. When Kate does her check she say's the door was open more than they had left it.
Now, if this had been said on the phone by Gerry in his distraught state, it might have come out very muddled and the family got the impression that the front door was open.
It was quite clear what they said to all the people they spoke to on the night:
Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a
consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said: "They last
checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters
shut. Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had
been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and
Madeleine was missing...”
Brian Healy -
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly
after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken,
they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet.
The door was open."
Jon Corner -
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle
of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted.
Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as
though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
Jill (or Gill) Renwick -
a family friend told GMTV the McCanns were certain that Madeleine has been abducted. "They
were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been
broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine," she said.”
As Blacksmith said:
“What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and
friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns
rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else.
These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the
hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all
recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have
gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.”
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Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
Is this really the best evidence you have to accuse someone of lying, its absolutely patheteic. Spoken by Gerry in English, written down in Portuguese, translated back into English to be read back to Gerry. Gerry confirms something which is read to him in English but written jn Portuguese. No audio or video taping of the statements.
the statements are then unofficially translated back into English. sorry, but to accuse anyone of lying based on this is pathetic.
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Vol I pp. 2-10
In conversation with Gerald McCann it was possible to establish the following:
They had been staying at the OC since 28th April 2007 and they were due to stay there for a week.
From 29-04-2007 he would dine with his wife at a restaurant in the OC whilst their children were a few metres away from the restaurant, in the bedroom.
They would dine at the restaurant with three other couples who were friends of theirs. Yesterday (the day of the events) they got up at 07.30 and had breakfast in the apartment. At about 09.00 they left the apartment and left the children at the creche, this creche was located inside the OC, with employees who would take care of the children until about 12.30.
After lunch, at about 14.30 the children would be dropped off back at the creche and would stay there until about 17.00.
At about 17.30 the parents would bathe the children and give them something to eat and at about 19.30 the three children were put to sleep in one of the bedrooms in the apartment.
At about 20.30 the couple left to have dinner in the restaurant.
At about 21.05 – 21.15 Gerald went to the bedroom to see the children, he saw the bedroom door was half way open which he found strange as he thought he had left it pushed to, however he entered and saw the children and saw that the window as well as the shutter were closed.
At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers.
At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange.
At the same place, at about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts and the consequent disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, at this moment the window being wide open as well as the curtains and the shutter.
Just how does this quote confirm the McCanns are lying?
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Despite what he said in his previous statements, he states now and with certainty, that he left with KATE through the back door which he consequently closed but did not lock, given that that is only possible from the inside. Concerning the front door, although he is certain that it was closed, it is unlikely that it was locked, because they left through the back door.
Is this really the best evidence you have to accuse someone of lying, its absolutely patheteic. Spoken by Gerry in English, written down in Portuguese, translated back into English to be read back to Gerry. Gerry confirms something which is read to him in English but written jn Portuguese. No audio or video taping of the statements.
the statements are then unofficially translated back into English. sorry, but to accuse anyone of lying based on this is pathetic.
Well it is to you because you have no clarity of thought.
If it was translated incorrectly Gerry would have said that in his later statement instead of saying "despite what he said previously" he would have said "due to confusion with the translations in his previous statement".
If you make an error in a statement due to translation issues then you state that as the reason for the change so as to not create suspicion.
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Well it is to you because you have no clarity of thought.
If it was translated incorrectly Gerry would have said that in his later statement instead of saying "despite what he said previously" he would have said "due to confusion with the translations in his previous statement".
If you make an error in a statement due to translation issues then you state that as the reason for the change so as to not create suspicion.
he says" despite what he said in his previous statements".... what do you understand him to have said in previous statements...were there more than one previous statement.
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he says" despite what he said in his previous statements".... what do you understand him to have said in previous statements...were there more than one previous statement.
bit odd seeing that from what I can see there was only ONE previous statement, and I cant see him mentioning the door in his previous statement. Not to worry, probably just an error in translation @)(++(*
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Gerry signed the statement translation as a true account of what he'd said.
What translation statement?
He signed a statement in Portuguese.
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What translation statement?
He signed a statement in Portuguese.
There is no evidence that the statement read back to Gerry in English was accurate therefore I cant see how the statement can or could be used as evidence.
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It was quite clear what they said to all the people they spoke to on the night:
Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a
consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said: "They last
checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters
shut. Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had
been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and
Madeleine was missing...”
Brian Healy -
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly
after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken,
they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet.
The door was open."
Jon Corner -
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle
of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted.
Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as
though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
Jill (or Gill) Renwick -
a family friend told GMTV the McCanns were certain that Madeleine has been abducted. "They
were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been
broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine," she said.”
As Blacksmith said:
“What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and
friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns
rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else.
These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the
hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all
recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have
gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.”
Well Kate and Gerry McCann have NEVER said the front door was wide open in any of their statements.
I believe this was a misunderstanding by a relative as to what Gerry said. The bedroom door was wide open, it is plain to see that this was a mix up in communication.
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It was quite clear what they said to all the people they spoke to on the night:
Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a
consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said: "They last
checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters
shut. Kate went back at 10 o'clock to check. The front door was lying open, the window had
been tampered with, the shutters had been jemmied open or whatever you call it and
Madeleine was missing...”
Brian Healy -
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly
after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken,
they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet.
The door was open."
Jon Corner -
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle
of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted.
Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as
though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
Jill (or Gill) Renwick -
a family friend told GMTV the McCanns were certain that Madeleine has been abducted. "They
were just watching the hotel room and going back every half-hour and the shutters had been
broken open and they had gone into the room and taken Madeleine," she said.”
As Blacksmith said:
“What must be appreciated, at this point, is that these comments, from closest family and
friends - the first to be contacted, are not Chinese whispers. It is not a case that the McCanns
rang one person, who got the message wrong, and this got passed on to everyone else.
These are four people who received independent telephone calls from Gerry or Kate, in the
hours following the 'abduction', and made independent statements. Yet, the statements all
recount the same story. The McCanns' apartment was locked, so the 'abductor' must have
gained access via the jemmied shutters and left via the front door.”
anyone who quotes Blacksmith as an authority loses all credibility. This is the person who claimed in feb that the mCCanns would settle on Amarals terms.
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Well Kate and Gerry McCann have NEVER said the front door was wide open in any of their statements.
I believe this was a misunderstanding by a relative as to what Gerry said. The bedroom door was wide open, it is plain to see that this was a mix up in communication.
That's the most likely explanation, I agree.
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There is no evidence that the statement read back to Gerry in English was accurate therefore I cant see how the statement can or could be used as evidence.
Haha!!
Talk about being desperate.
Ye Gods, i've never heard such nonesene in my life.
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That's the most likely explanation, I agree.
But Kate & Gerry said the same story to FOUR different people.
So no, it's not the most likely explaination is it?
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But Kate & Gerry said the same story to FOUR different people.
So no, it's not the most likely explaination is it?
Four different people? Or was the misunderstood telephone call told to others?
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Four different people? Or was the misunderstood telephone call told to others?
Nope. The witnesses making the statements all say they got their information in phone calls directly from Kate or Gerry.
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Nope. The witnesses making the statements all say they got their information in phone calls directly from Kate or Gerry.
Could you list the witnesses please faithfully? Are they all relatives? If so the telephone could well have come from Gerry to one relative and then what was said [and misunderstood] quoted to them.
They would say the phone call came from Gerry but fail to say the phone call was quoted to them.
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Could you list the witnesses please faithfully? Are they all relatives? If so the telephone could well have come from Gerry to one relative and then what was said [and misunderstood] quoted to them.
They would say the phone call came from Gerry but fail to say the phone call was quoted to them.
And if your auntie had b*lls she'd be your uncle lace @)(++(*
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Sorry I don't get what you mean.
I'm sure she would.
That doesn't answer anything though does it.
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Four different people? Or was the misunderstood telephone call told to others?
Ok here you go:
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a
consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly
after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken,
they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet.
The door was open."
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle
of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted.
Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as
though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
Each one of them says they spoke directly to either Kate or Gerry.
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Ok here you go:
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a
consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out". She said
Madeleine's maternal grandfather, told the Guardian his son-in-law had phoned him shortly
after returning "Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken,
they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet.
The door was open."
a close friend of Kate McCann and godparent of the twins, said she phoned him in the middle
of the night distraught. He said: "She just blurted out that Madeleine had been abducted.
Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as
though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
Each one of them says they spoke directly to either Kate or Gerry.
Only one of those [the grandfather] mentions a door. Then only says 'the door was open' not the front door was open.
The bedroom door was wide open when Kate did her check and NOT the front door.
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I found two interesting points in the Guardian 5th May 2007 edition :
1) Mrs Cameron revealed the coloboma.
2) She doesn't mention any check between around 9 and around 10 : the couple checked on the children every half hour; the last check was made after 9pm by Mr McCann. Some time between then and around 10pm when his wife walked into the room to find Madeleine missing, the family believes an intruder broke in and snatched the girl.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.sandralaville
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I found two interesting points in the Guardian 5th May 2007 edition :
1) Mrs Cameron revealed the coloboma.
2) She doesn't mention any check between around 9 and around 10 : the couple checked on the children every half hour; the last check was made after 9pm by Mr McCann. Some time between then and around 10pm when his wife walked into the room to find Madeleine missing, the family believes an intruder broke in and snatched the girl.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.sandralaville
Third party information again !
Anne there are so many witnesses to Matt going and checking, that what is in that newspaper is clearly nonsense. Even the waiters were on about how they kept vanishing. At the time they knew not where, but afterwards realised they were checking the children
Personally I am affronted that such attacks could, and would, be made at a group of consciencious people who did everything by the book. They bettered Internationally accepted methods of checking on sleeping children.
What ever is wrong with you guys to keep needlessly putting the boot in?
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Third party information again !
Anne there are so many witnesses to Matt going and checking, that what is in that newspaper is clearly nonsense. Even the waiters were on about how they kept vanishing. At the time they knew not where, but afterwards realised they were checking the children
Personally I am affronted that such attacks could, and would, be made at a group of consciencious people who did everything by the book. They bettered Internationally accepted methods of checking on sleeping children.
What ever is wrong with you guys to keep needlessly putting the boot in?
These conscientious people as you put them, placed socializing first, children second.
Secondly and for the umpteenth time, what INDEPENDENT verification is there, of the children being checked regularly every night ?
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These conscientious people as you put them, placed socializing first, children second.
Secondly and for the umpteenth time, what INDEPENDENT verification is there, of the children being checked regularly every night ?
Try the waiters statements, Stephen
If the PJ accepted them, why cant you ?
In actual fact, except by the blinkered, the tapas 7 statements would be accepted on their own.
Oh, btw, there is an independant witness. JEZ
The Mcccanns left for the restaurant at 8.30/8.35. Half an hour later Gerry checked the children, went to the loo ... and bumped into Jez at about 9.10 wnen he was leaving.
So the first checking happened half an hour after leaving for the restaurant .... Agreed?
And almost certainly Madeleine was gone by 9.15 / 9.20pm
The party used International checking interval standards ... and bettered them both in
1. Frequency and
2. Visual checks. They usually they went into the appartments for a visual check.
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Try the waiters statements, Stephen
If the PJ accepted them, why cant you ?
In actual fact, except by the blinkered, the tapas 7 statements would be accepted on their own.
Oh, btw, there is an independant witness. JEZ
The Mcccanns left for the restaurant at 8.30/8.35. Half an hour later Gerry checked the children, went to the loo ... and bumped into Jez at about 9.10 wnen he was leaving.
So the first checking happened half an hour after leaving for the restaurant .... Agreed?
And almost certainly Madeleine was gone by 9.15 / 9.20pm
The party used International checking interval standards ... and bettered them both in
1. Frequency and
2. Visual checks. They usually they went into the appartments for a visual check.
A member of the group is not an independent witness.
You do not know when Madeleine went.
That is speculation.
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Jez is NOT a member of the group.
FGS, Stephen didn't you know that?
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Jez is NOT a member of the group.
FGS, Stephen didn't you know that?
I stand corrected on that.
Did he see gm leave the apartment ?
How do we know Madeleine was in the apartment at this time ?
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I stand corrected on that.
Did he see gm leave the apartment ?
How do we know Madeleine was in the apartment at this time ?
Jez said that Gerry was walking when he saw him and presumed he had been to check on the children.
Gerry had a short conversation with Jez where he chatted about the children. I would think that Gerry would have been in a very agitated mood if he had just hidden Madeleine's body.
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Try the waiters statements, Stephen
If the PJ accepted them, why cant you ?
In actual fact, except by the blinkered, the tapas 7 statements would be accepted on their own.
Oh, btw, there is an independant witness. JEZ
The Mcccanns left for the restaurant at 8.30/8.35. Half an hour later Gerry checked the children, went to the loo ... and bumped into Jez at about 9.10 wnen he was leaving.
So the first checking happened half an hour after leaving for the restaurant .... Agreed?
And almost certainly Madeleine was gone by 9.15 / 9.20pm
The party used International checking interval standards ... and bettered them both in
1. Frequency and
2. Visual checks. They usually they went into the appartments for a visual check.
Do you have a link to those standards sadie ?
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Faithlilly !
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Do you have a link to those standards sadie ?
Since Madeleine vanished, few hotels take the risk anymore. I believe that Mark warner holidays used to do it at many resorts, but it seems that has stopped. There is little to find on the internet now. Every one has learned their lesson from what happened to Madeleine. What was considered fine before Madeleine was taken is taboo now, it seems.
However below are examples / discussions of baby listening services. and I know which I would prefer, in the ** Tapas 9 v regular baby listening services. **
The way that the Tapas friends did their checking is vastly better than any baby listening services discussed here
http://www.butlins-memories.com/forums/showthread.php?7232-Baby-Crying-In-Chalet
How Butlins did it.... Redcoats (often youngsters) riding past on bicycles and listening as they went past
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/728265-baby-listening-in-hotels/AllOnOnePage
DrNortherner Thu 26-Mar-09 11:34:48
Having worked in hotels for many many years I have never, and would never use a baby listening service. NEVER.
I have been that receptionist responsible for baby listening, whilst checking in 180 guests, answering a switchbord, taking messages, dealing with complaints, posting bar and restaurant charges, balancing the books, cashing up at the end of shift, etc etc....plus I know just how many staff have access to your bedroom, you can not lock teh door from teh inside so a toddler can let themselves out easily. And room break ins are rife in hotels.
So says an expert; someone at the cutting edge of baby listening services. And pre Madeleine, thousands of families used these services each year. They were considered OK
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Since Madeleine vanished, few hotels take the risk anymore. I believe that Mark warner holidays used to do it at many resorts, but it seems that has stopped. There is little to find on the internet now. Every one has learned their lesson from what happened to Madeleine. What was considered fine before Madeleine was taken is taboo now, it seems.
However below are examples / discussions of baby listening services. and I know which I would prefer, in the ** Tapas 9 v regular baby listening services. **
The way that the Tapas friends did their checking is vastly better than any baby listening services discussed here
http://www.butlins-memories.com/forums/showthread.php?7232-Baby-Crying-In-Chalet
How Butlins did it.... Redcoats (often youngsters) riding past on bicycles and listening as they went past
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/728265-baby-listening-in-hotels/AllOnOnePage
DrNortherner Thu 26-Mar-09 11:34:48
Having worked in hotels for many many years I have never, and would never use a baby listening service. NEVER.
I have been that receptionist responsible for baby listening, whilst checking in 180 guests, answering a switchbord, taking messages, dealing with complaints, posting bar and restaurant charges, balancing the books, cashing up at the end of shift, etc etc....plus I know just how many staff have access to your bedroom, you can not lock teh door from teh inside so a toddler can let themselves out easily. And room break ins are rife in hotels.
So says an expert; someone at the cutting edge of baby listening services. And pre Madeleine, thousands of families used these services each year. They were considered OK
So there is no such thing as International checking interval standards, is there sadie ? Rather dishonest of you to suggest there was then, wasn't it ?
Further your links deal with accepted practice Butlins, a gated complex and a hotel, both locations in no way similar to the OC.
The receptionist in your second link specifically mentions not being able to lock the room ( notice she is talking about a hotel ) door and how dangerous that is. How much more dangerous for a child to leave the door open of an apartment with access to a public road ?
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So there is no such thing as International checking interval standards, is there sadie ? Rather dishonest of you to suggest there was then, wasn't it ?
Further your links deal with accepted practice Butlins, a gated complex and a hotel, both locations in no way similar to the OC.
The receptionist in your second link specifically mentions not being able to lock the room ( notice she is talking about a hotel ) door and how dangerous that is. How much more dangerous for a child to leave the door open of an apartment with access to a public road ?
As suspect you know from Annes post, almost NO hotels etc. offer this service since May 2007, so nothing about it on the internet.
Faithlilly !
But it was common before then, as I am sure readers will be aware. Many will have used cild listening services, but since Madeleine, most do not like to admit it. I rather fancy that pre Madeleine, Mark Warner hotels used to use it, all over the world. And that it is mentioned in one of the Statements, but I aint spending days wading thru them again
As far as i am aware there were no "official" standards, as such, but common methods were used. No point in denying it. Everyone who spent time in hotels and big apartment complexes know about it.
The Mccann and Tapas groups checking was superior to any that I know of. Even the PJ seem to acknowledge that.
Can you give me an example of a baby listening service that was better than the one they used?
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As suspect you know from Annes post, almost NO hotels etc. offer this service since May 2007, so nothing about it on the internet.
But it was common before then, as I am sure readers will be aware. Many will have used cild listening services, but since Madeleine, most do not like to admit it. I rather fancy that pre Madeleine, Mark Warner hotels used to use it, all over the world. And that it is mentioned in one of the Statements, but I aint spending days wading thru them again
As far as i am aware there were no "official" standards, as such, but common methods were used. No point in denying it. Everyone who spent time in hotels and big apartment complexes know about it.
The Mccann and Tapas groups checking was superior to any that I know of. Even the PJ seem to acknowledge that.
Can you give me an example of a baby listening service that was better than the one they used?
Employing a babysitter, easily available, in a LOCKED APARTMENT.
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As suspect you know from Annes post, almost NO hotels etc. offer this service since May 2007, so nothing about it on the internet.
But it was common before then, as I am sure readers will be aware. Many will have used cild listening services, but since Madeleine, most do not like to admit it. I rather fancy that pre Madeleine, Mark Warner hotels used to use it, all over the world. And that it is mentioned in one of the Statements, but I aint spending days wading thru them again
As far as i am aware there were no "official" standards, as such, but common methods were used. No point in denying it. Everyone who spent time in hotels and big apartment complexes know about it.
The Mccann and Tapas groups checking was superior to any that I know of. Even the PJ seem to acknowledge that.
Can you give me an example of a baby listening service that was better than the one they used?
As there are, as you now admit, no 'official' standards, why did you suggest that there were ?
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As suspect you know from Annes post, almost NO hotels etc. offer this service since May 2007, so nothing about it on the internet.
Which post of mine, please Sadie ?
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Which post of mine, please Sadie ?
Post 52, after Faiths post 51.
That immediately made me wonder why you responded like that
Faithlilly !
... and as I searched the internet for information about baby listening services, I realised that you knew that after Madeleine vanished, all hotels etc stopped giving this service, in case it happened to their clients and they were sued.
OK?
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Post 52, after Faiths post 51.
That immediately made me wonder why you responded like that
... and as I searched the internet for information about baby listening services, I realised that you knew that after Madeleine vanished, all hotels etc stopped giving this service, in case it happened to their clients and they were sued.
OK?
Not at all, Sadie, it's a misunderstanding. I know nothing about babylistening service politics.
"Faithlilly !" was only expressing my surprise.
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Not at all, Sadie, it's a misunderstanding. I know nothing about babylistening service politics.
"Faithlilly !" was only expressing my surprise.
Expressing your surprise. Why?
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Are you sure about this. I am not saying you are wrong, but I haven't seen anything to support this.
Sorry John I haven't seen anything that says the FRONT door was wide open, only that the DOOR was wide open.
As for Gerry saying he used the front door when checking the children. He used the front door when leaving the apartment when they were going out during the week. He would lock the patio doors [which could only be locked from inside] then go out the front door.
When questioned he was obviously distraught and got mixed up by the question asked.
If there had been any sort of sneaky getting your stories straight if they were guilty of the crime of hiding Madeleine, then I am sure they would both have said the same thing, parrot fashion.
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One should be aware that, had they disposed of their daughter's body, they'd have been not less grieving parents.
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One should be aware that, had they disposed of their daughter's body, they'd have been not less grieving parents.
Absolutely Anne. How does one tell the difference between a parent who is grief-stricken because their child has been abducted and one who is grief-stricken because their child has died ?