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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on July 22, 2013, 04:09:26 PM
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It is clear from the evidence available to us that the preliminary DNA results obtained from samples taken from apartment 5a and the Renault Scenic hire car were the principal reason why the McCanns were designated as 'arguidos' or official suspects. It is also very clear that this status was lifted following receipt of the final results which showed that the tests were in fact 'inconclusive'.
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This statements supports those who believe that the 48 questions and the reconstruction were being used to incriminate the McCanns rather than help find maddie.
Sensible post, dave. Some of those PJ questions were disgusting, the ones where they were clearly lying about the so-called "forensics".
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Sensible post, dave. Some of those PJ questions were disgusting, the ones where they were clearly lying about the so-called "forensics".
Really?!!!
You better ask "call me Stu". He knew that the first report from FSS was that Madeleine's DNA was in the car and in the apartment.
But even with the attempt to devaluate it, there are plenty of geneticists that say that the probability to obtain 15 out of 19 alleles, even from a mixed sample, is too low for strangers. If it was in the US, in certain States, most probably the McCann would be in the death row.
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Really?!!!
You better ask "call me Stu". He knew that the first report from FSS was that Madeleine's DNA were in the car and in the apartment.
what a load of rubbish . Do you have a copy of that first report or are you just repeating more myths(lies)
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Really?!!!
You better ask "call me Stu". He knew that the first report from FSS was that Madeleine's DNA was in the car and in the apartment.
But even with the attempt to devaluate it, there are plenty of geneticists that say that the probability to obtain 15 out of 19 alleles, even from a mixed sample, is too low for strangers. If it was in the US, in certain States, most probably the McCann would be in the death row.
GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!
The 15/19 business AGAIN!
GGAAARRRGGH!!!
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Really?!!!
You better ask "call me Stu". He knew that the first report from FSS was that Madeleine's DNA was in the car and in the apartment.
But even with the attempt to devaluate it, there are plenty of geneticists that say that the probability to obtain 15 out of 19 alleles, even from a mixed sample, is too low for strangers. If it was in the US, in certain States, most probably the McCann would be in the death row.
This is also rubbish. Do you have a quote from a geneticist... I think the answer is no again.
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This is also rubbish. Do you have a quote from a geneticist... I think the answer is no again.
Yes, I am using the words of a Suiss geneticist, but I would have to review my documents to find that reference.
Unlike you I don't use RUBISH.
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Yes, I am using the words of a Suiss geneticist, but I would have to review my documents to find that reference.
Unlike you I don't use RUBISH.
I think your Swiss geneticist has something in common with the Swiss football referee Urs Meier....
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Yes, I am using the words of a Suiss geneticist, but I would have to review my documents to find that reference.
Unlike you I don't use RUBISH.
its rubbish...for lots of reasons
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Yes, I am using the words of a Suiss geneticist, but I would have to review my documents to find that reference.
Unlike you I don't use RUBISH.
just read this quote...
The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case.
Sir Alec Jeffreys said DNA matches alone did not establish guilt and all Madeleine's genetic characters would be found in at least one family member.
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Really?!!!
You better ask "call me Stu". He knew that the first report from FSS was that Madeleine's DNA was in the car and in the apartment.
But even with the attempt to devaluate it, there are plenty of geneticists that say that the probability to obtain 15 out of 19 alleles, even from a mixed sample, is too low for strangers. If it was in the US, in certain States, most probably the McCann would be in the death row.
Luz, I thought you knew the files well. The car sample had 15 alleles in her profile out of a soup containing 37 alleles donated by between 3 and 5 people.
All of her alleles would be in her parents' profiles, and she'd share quite a number with all her other relatives who'd been in that car.
The profiles of even three total strangers could share the same amount of alleles.
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It must be stated that the preliminary forensic results provided to the PJ by the FSS in the UK was a crucial factor in the McCanns being designated arguidos. I would go further and say this was the determining factor but later found to be inconclusive resulting in the status being revoked.
Mr Amaral thought the forensics which followed the dog alerts in the hire car was the golden bullet. It turned out to be a damp squid and led to his own ousting as coordinator and ultimate downfall! @)(++(*
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It must be stated that the preliminary forensic results provided to the PJ by the FSS in the UK was a crucial factor in the McCanns being designated arguidos. I would go further and say this was the determining factor but later found to be inconclusive resulting in the status being revoked.
Mr Amaral thought the forensics which followed the dog alerts in the hire car was the golden bullet. It turned out to be a damp squid and led to his own ousting as coordinator and ultimate downfall! @)(++(*
Exactly when the final detailed reports came back from the FSS found that there was no blood splatter in the apartment , no DNA of Madeleine in the car , no DNA evidence atoll that indicated anything conclusive of either death, injury etc it left Amaral in a bit of a hole . He seemed to have made the classic error of putting all his eggs in the one basket and hadn't really looked at any other theory - let alone detailed investigation of other potential suspects who had potential means - hence the 38 people of interest
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no DNA evidence atoll that indicated anything conclusive of either death, injury etc
You can be injured without bleeding, you can die without bleeding. The tests on the tiny drops of blood weren't conclusive. But the cadaver dog very likely smelt death, anonymous death.
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You can be injured without bleeding, you can die without bleeding. The tests on the tiny drops of blood weren't conclusive. But the cadaver dog very likely smelt death, anonymous death.
In which case where is the forensic evidence of a corpse?
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Luz -
I really cannot take you seriously when you still quote such things as 15 out of 19 markers.
Have you actually read the files properly or do you think it is telling lies?
Never mind what was said in the newspapers, we all know that Amaral jumped straight in before getting the results of the DNA tests.
He gambled and lost that is the fact of the matter.
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Luz -
I really cannot take you seriously when you still quote such things as 15 out of 19 markers.
Have you actually read the files properly or do you think it is telling lies?
Never mind what was said in the newspapers, we all know that Amaral jumped straight in before getting the results of the DNA tests.
He gambled and lost that is the fact of the matter.
Spot on Lace, with all three points 8((()*/
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At the Arguido interview the PJ were armed with preliminary results having being advised to them by the FSS in England. Whether those preliminary results were in error or whether the PJ mistook their significance is unknown.
At the end if the day the PJ genuinely believed that there was a high probability of a DNA match and that the McCanns had a case to answer.
If they are to be criticised for anything it is for 'jumping the gun'!
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Angelo - do you have some reference to this "preliminary report" from the FSS? Is it in the files?
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At the Arguido interview the PJ were armed with preliminary results having being advised to them by the FSS in England. Whether those preliminary results were in error or whether the PJ mistook their significance is unknown.
At the end if the day the PJ genuinely believed that there was a high probability of a DNA match and that the McCanns had a case to answer.
It should be remembered that the PJ works under the strict control of the PM and the Instruction Judge (this isn't the case in the UK). They genuinely believed they had some kind of important evidence. But they also knew a high probability isn't a certainty.
Eddie's findings in the 5A was a heavy blow, but it was compensated by Keela's finding in the car, a good point for the McCanns because, imo, they knew Madeleine had never been in that car, alive or dead.
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Angelo - do you have some reference to this "preliminary report" from the FSS? Is it in the files?
Seems the PJ had the true results from 2008.07.18
300 to 326 Translation of FSS statement John Robert Lowe 2008.07.18
01-02-OUTROS APENSOS I, volume II, Pages 300-325
FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 8
The attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material collected from the plastic area on the baggage compartment (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)) was unfruitful [fruitless, in vain, useless, unproductive, unsuccessful], because no DNA profile was obtained.
A mixed, low-level DNA result, that appeared to be from at least two persons, was obtained from a second area of the baggage compartment plastic (286C/2007-CRL /10(2)). This sample was submitted for tests to obtain DNA profiles through LCN.
A DNA result by complex LCN that appeared to be from at least three persons, was obtained from cellular material collected on the section of the baggage compartment 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. In my opinion, that result is too complex for a meaningful interpretation.
An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key - (286C/2007-CRL (12)). I guess this is the fob of the car-keys
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
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At the Arguido interview the PJ were armed with preliminary results having being advised to them by the FSS in England. Whether those preliminary results were in error or whether the PJ mistook their significance is unknown.
At the end if the day the PJ genuinely believed that there was a high probability of a DNA match and that the McCanns had a case to answer.
Unless anyone has found anything different, the "preliminary results" would have been Lowe's e-mail addressed to Stu Prior with the 15/37 component result and an explanation.
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
Why - ...
Well lets look at the question that is being asked
"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "
It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.
What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.
Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.
João Carlos wrote up a "summary" in Portuguese for Amaral... in which João Carlos makes no mention of the 3-5 contributors, nor that the 15 compatible components were within a batch of 37.
TRANSLATED BY ALBYM
10-Processo 10 - 2615 to 2616
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2615
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2616
Letter dated 11 September regarding FSS report received by PJ
on on 4 September from Leicester Police, citing 15/19 matches of Madeleine DNA
profile
This serves to add [to the case file] a laboratory examination report prepared
in England, written in English and translated into Portuguese, delivered to this
police force on 4 September 2007 by English police officer Stuart Prior.
This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.
In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.
With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.
In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components.
Portimao, 11 September 2007
Inspector
Joao Carlos
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm#p10p2615
PT original:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2615.jpg
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2616.jpg
However, Amaral was clearly aware of the contents of Lowe's email (3-5 contributors and 37 components) as he raises it in his book.
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That's always been my understanding of what Amaral meant by the "preliminary results"
And from that email of Lowe's (the "preliminary results") is the critical part:
What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -
When was the DNA deposited -
How was the DNA deposited -
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from -
Was a crime committed -
Unmistakably inconclusive, with innocent explanations of how an, apparent, "match" with Madeleine could be, not merely possible, but overwhelmingly likely ...
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It was always going to be the case that there would be elements of DNA in common between Madeleine and the other members of the family as they are all related. Could Amaral have failed to appreciate this in his thought processes??
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It was always going to be the case that there would be elements of DNA in common between Madeleine and the other members of the family as they are all related. Could Amaral have failed to appreciate this in his thought processes??
Yes!!!
(See my edit above).
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Unless anyone has found anything different, the "preliminary results" would have been Lowe'semail addressed to Stu Prior with the 15/37 component result and an explanation.
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
Why - ...
Well lets look at the question that is being asked
"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "
It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.
What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.
Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.
João Carlos wrote up a "summary" in Portuguese for Amaral... in which João Carlos makes no mention of the 3-5 contributors, nor that the 15 compatible components were within a batch of 37.
TRANSLATED BY ALBYM
10-Processo 10 - 2615 to 2616
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2615
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2616
Letter dated 11 September regarding FSS report received by PJ
on on 4 September from Leicester Police, citing 15/19 matches of Madeleine DNA
profile
This serves to add [to the case file] a laboratory examination report prepared
in England, written in English and translated into Portuguese, delivered to this
police force on 4 September 2007 by English police officer Stuart Prior.
This laboratory report tells about the examinations made of two trace evidence
recoveries, one behind the living room sofa in apartment 5A and the other in the
boot area of the vehicle used by the McCann family, hired [by them] from the end of May this year.
In some of these recoveries (samples) DNA was found whose components are also
found in the profile of Madeleine McCann.
With respect to the trace evidence recovered behind the sofa all the confirmed
DNA components coincide with corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann.
In the sample collected in the boot area of the vehicle, 15 of the identified
DNA components coincide with the corresponding components in the DNA profile of
Madeleine McCann, this of [having] 19 components.
Portimao, 11 September 2007
Inspector
Joao Carlos
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm#p10p2615
PT original:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2615.jpg
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2616.jpg
However, Amaral was clearly aware of the contents of Lowe's email (3-5 contributors and 37 components) as he raises it in his book.
Here is the complete e-mail from JL to SP
10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2617
Task Portugal
From: "Prior Stuart" <Stuart.Prior@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk>
To: "Task Portugal" <Task.Portugal@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk>
Sent: 04 September 2007 10:14
Subject: FW: Op Task - in Confidence
From: Lowe, Mr J R [mailto:John.Lowe@fss.pnn.police.uk
Sent: 03 September 2007 15:01
To: stuart.prior@leicestershire.pnn.police.uk
Subject: Op Task - In Confidence
Stuart
Firstly, here are the last three results you are expecting
An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.
There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline MCCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
Why - ...
Well lets look at the question that is being asked
"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "
It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.
What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.
Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.
The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation
What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -
When was the DNA deposited -
How was the DNA deposited -
What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from -
Was a crime committed -
These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report
Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance
kind regards
John
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The subject of DNA analysis is very complicated and I for one do not for a minute pretend to understand all about it. That said however there is always confusion about the number of markers which constitute a match under the law.
It is my understanding that 20 markers or 10 pairs are required in the UK before a match can be confirmed although as few as 15 are accepted in many other countries including some US States and Canada. Does anyone know what the legal requirement is in Portugal??
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15 is the number for paternity.
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The LCN technique isn't universally accepted and the Forensic Institute has been one of the main campaigners in bringing the limitations of its use.
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100317/full/464347a.html
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It was always going to be the case that there would be elements of DNA in common between Madeleine and the other members of the family as they are all related. Could Amaral have failed to appreciate this in his thought processes??
What do you think?
From his book:
We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match - 50% - with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.
At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.
At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.
In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!
As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.
But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.
On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.
As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.
Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody.
WHAT THE LABORATORY REPORTS BRING TO LIGHT
The preliminary results from FSS were enlightening in a way, and confirmed the information given by the EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and the CSI dog.
The CSI dog, Keela, signaled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour - on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards.
The bodily fluids, according to the FSS, contain markers from Madeleine’s DNA profile.
These elements do not constitute concrete proof but simply clues to be added to those we already possess. In itself, the definition of a DNA profile from LCN is not considered as evidence in a criminal investigation. In his report, the English scientist says that he cannot give answers to the following questions: when was the DNA deposited? In what way? What bodily fluid does the DNA come from? Has a crime been committed?
The scientific evidence is not enough and it has to be accompanied by other types of material, documented and testimonial evidence. It is only in this way that the entire puzzle can be reconstructed and certainties can be achieved, for the material truth to be established.
The FSS has still not provided the result of the technical analysis of the hair found in the boot of the car. Once more, Stuart has to contact the laboratory. Nothing has been done. We want to know two things: if the hair is indeed Madeleine’s, and if it comes from a living or a dead person. The FSS can only answer the first question. English colleagues present at the meeting raise the possibility of the hair being sent to other European laboratories which have the resources to clear up the second point for us: hair from a living or a dead person. But the FSS does not seem to want to part with the hair. They claim that using a colour comparison test they can establish if the hair belongs to Madeleine and in a second stage, identify the DNA profile. None of that will happen. We never find out if the hair was Madeleine’s or her parents’ or her brother’s or her sister’s, even though the laboratory has the DNA profiles of each member of the family.*
Let’s remember: it is totally logical to find Madeleine’s DNA in the home, but absolutely not in a car rented more than twenty days after her disappearance.
* Here he failed to appreciate that the hairs in the boot were fragments and that only very few could be sent for DNA testing (which proved fruitless, presumably because there was an insufficient amount of root).
From an interview:
Exclusive Interview with Gonçalo Amaral: Cadaver was frozen or was kept in the cold
24 July 2008
(...)
“The cadaver was frozen”
Correio da Manhã - What do you think happened to the body?
Gonçalo Amaral – Everything indicated that the body, after having been at a certain location, was moved into another location by car, twenty something days later. With the residues that were found inside the car, the little girl had to have been transported inside it.
How can you state that?
Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk’s right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it’s the only way to explain what happened there.
http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1466-cadaver-was-frozen-or-kept-in-the-cold-interview-with-goncalo-amaral
From another interview:
"The little girl died in that apartment" - Gonçalo Amaral on TVI, broadcast live on 28 July 2008
A: The reports from the English labs… the English reports arrive shortly before the questionings that were scheduled. And it contained certain conclusions, if they thought they were inconclusive they shouldn't have mentioned it, the question of the 15 alleles in a profile of 19 from the little girl, stating that they match Madeleine McCann, but they also say that it could have been a construction let's say from various donors, from other persons, a contamination could have produced Madeleine McCann's profile by coincidence. But there are no excuses for saying that it is not from Madeleine McCann because they held the profiles of the father, the mother, the siblings, therefore there are no doubts that at least within that family they only matched Madeleine McCann's.
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So it is clear that the FSS were warning on 3rd September 2007 that the DNA results were inconclusive yet the PJ chose to claim otherwise while conducting the arguido interview with Gerry on the 7th September. Says it all??
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15 is the number for paternity.
Do you have a reliable source for that?
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Angelo
May I ask what you edited out of my post, please?
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Angelo
May I ask what you edited out of my post, please?
Sure, just a small typo, changed Lowe'semail to Lowe's e-mail
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I find this comment by Mr Amaral in his book remarkable.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am.
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I agree, Angelo. I think perhaps Amaral "misremembered" some things for his book.
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I find this comment by Mr Amaral in his book remarkable.
At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am.
I'd like to know what answer Stuart got, from the FSS. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Didn't Amaral have the UK police followed for their every move to be watched?
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So it is clear that the FSS were warning on 3rd September 2007 that the DNA results were inconclusive yet the PJ chose to claim otherwise while conducting the arguido interview with Gerry on the 7th September. Says it all??
If I'm not mistaken, under the new legislation that would have come into effect a week later, the arguidos would have had the right to know the evidence for the "reasoned suspicions" against them. I'll try to double-check that.
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So it is clear that the FSS were warning on 3rd September 2007 that the DNA results were inconclusive yet the PJ chose to claim otherwise while conducting the arguido interview with Gerry on the 7th September. Says it all??
The Portuguese were convinced the LCN was the nec plus ultra, which it wasn't. They should have read Prof Allan Jamieson "warning of the dangers of not understanding the potential for honest error and margins of error. These new techniques are undoubtedly of tremendous value as intelligence in criminal investigation. In cold cases the requirement for other corroborative evidence must reflect the increased uncertainty in the LCN results."
http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-2/1003857.aspx#.UhYuMNduuck
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Sure, just a small typo, changed Lowe'semail to Lowe's e-mail
Ah. Thanks.
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I agree, Angelo. I think perhaps Amaral "misremembered" some things for his book.
Well, Luz assured us that it was true as someone in that room (apparently not Amaral) confirmed it to her. I did ask if that "someone" understood English, but I never got a reply.
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I'd like to know what answer Stuart got, from the FSS. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Didn't Amaral have the UK police followed for their every move to be watched?
Are you working on the assumtion that this conversation actually took place, DCI?
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If I'm not mistaken, under the new legislation that would have come into effect a week later, the arguidos would have had the right to know the evidence for the "reasoned suspicions" against them. I'll try to double-check that.
The arguidos "ancient law" had a lot of rights, about the same the assistants in the process have (a requirement the McCanns did and that was granted by the PM).
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I find this comment by Mr Amaral in his book remarkable.
Particularly as further up he stated that the PJ team didn't share Prior's "disappointment" with the results.
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Are you working on the assumtion that this conversation actually took place, DCI?
No JP, quite the opposite, sorry, I was being sarcastic!
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It is very obvious that when it comes to DNA testing within familys that a whole new set of obstacles appear. Had Madeleine been adopted or conceived using donated eggs and sperm then the PJ might just have had a case. As it was, she wasn't and they didn't!!
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It is very obvious that when it comes to DNA testing within familys that a whole new set of obstacles appear. Had Madeleine been adopted or conceived using donated eggs and sperm then the PJ might just have had a case. As it was, she wasn't and they didn't!!
Yes, and there were rumours spread that Gerry was not Madeleine's father. I may be wrong but I think thats also in Amarals book?
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Do you have a reliable source for that?
http://www.labluxor.com/teste-de-paternidade
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Particularly as further up he stated that the PJ team didn't share Prior's "disappointment" with the results.
Had SP no reason to be disappointed with results that, being inconclusive, were questioning the pertinence of recommending the FSS ?
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I am not sure, DCI. And I am not going to trawl through it to find out.
But there were some doubts raised at the time, which were settled by forensic reports which settled the matter.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm#2280
Yes and look at the date, the truth was known
2280 to 2281 FSS Forensic Report re G & K McCann DNA samples 2007.07.28
Well before any news reports, made as soon as they left Portugal, or Amarals book.
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Reading the reports, and amarals book, documenatary and interviews, I really do wonder whether he was actually up to the job.
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Reading the reports, and amarals book, documenatary and interviews, I really do wonder whether he was actually up to the job.
He got the results, J-P
But never ask how he got them. That's not allowed in PT Law, it seems. Never question the PJ or the Judiciary, or you could end up in jail.
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Thanks for the link, Anne. It doesn't mention which test kit they use (specific paternity-testing kits are available which may vary in terms in terms of which areas are examined, as opposed to those examined for forensic purposes ), but anyway they use a system based on 15 loci "loci (regiões)".
However, the components from the boot in Madeleine's profile were not the results from 15 loci (aka markers).
For a start, the UK only examine 10 loci (markers). They found - within that mixture of 37 alleles - 15 alleles (they search for 2 alleles at each of the loci (location/marker region). That result would have been useless to determine paternity (if the need had arisen) as such a test would require full and isolated profiles.
This is where the oft-repeated myth may have originated (from the same interview I quoted earlier).
GA: The reports from the English labs… the English reports arrive shortly before the questionings that were scheduled. And it contained certain conclusions, if they thought they were inconclusive they shouldn't have mentioned it, the question of the 15 alleles in a profile of 19 from the little girl, stating that they match Madeleine McCann, but they also say that it could have been a construction let's say from various donors, from other persons, a contamination could have produced Madeleine McCann's profile by coincidence. But there are no excuses for saying that it is not from Madeleine McCann because they held the profiles of the father, the mother, the siblings, therefore there are no doubts that at least within that family they only matched Madeleine McCann's.
DL: In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone's paternity, therefore… That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don't they have any more samples to carry out…
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Reading the reports, and amarals book, documenatary and interviews, I really do wonder whether he was actually up to the job.
Well, if he didn't understand DNA - why didn't he ask Corte-Real instead of coming up with wild theories about a thawing body?
Corte-Real explained exactly the same thing as Lowe in his documentary:
Dr Francisco Corte-Real
Vice President, National Forensics Institute
33.09 – When those 15 alleles are included in a mix, where beyond those 15 we can have another 30 or 40 alleles, that means that it includes biological material from several persons. And there it can be much more difficult, much more inconclusive, because we may have a mixture from several persons, including hypothetically, if that happens, we may have several persons from the same family, and that may even give us the idea, in a way, that a certain missing person may be included, and that is not conclusive.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AMARAL_DOC_13_04_09.htm#doc
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The subject of DNA analysis is very complicated and I for one do not for a minute pretend to understand all about it. That said however there is always confusion about the number of markers which constitute a match under the law.
It is my understanding that 20 markers or 10 pairs are required in the UK before a match can be confirmed although as few as 15 are accepted in many other countries including some US States and Canada. Does anyone know what the legal requirement is in Portugal??
I think you're confusing alleles and markers.
The UK system is based on SGM+, which looks for 20 alleles in 10 marker locations.
However many are used normally for forensic purposes, in the tests done in the Madeleine case, they used 2 different kits each with 15 marker locations, many of which were the same, but a few were different ones, i.e., they actually went over the norm from what I understand.
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Well, if he didn't understand DNA - why didn't he ask Corte-Real instead of coming up with wild theories about a thawing body?
Corte-Real explained exactly the same thing as Lowe in his documentary:
Dr Francisco Corte-Real
Vice President, National Forensics Institute
33.09 – When those 15 alleles are included in a mix, where beyond those 15 we can have another 30 or 40 alleles, that means that it includes biological material from several persons. And there it can be much more difficult, much more inconclusive, because we may have a mixture from several persons, including hypothetically, if that happens, we may have several persons from the same family, and that may even give us the idea, in a way, that a certain missing person may be included, and that is not conclusive.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AMARAL_DOC_13_04_09.htm#doc
He didn't want to understand them, if they didn't fit his theories.
Didn't he have Jane in an apartment in Burgau at some point
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8-)(--)
12-Processos Vol XII Pages 3252 to 3253
From Goncalo Amaral
To: INML
Date: 4th September 2007
The present request deals with the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007.
Within the scope of this request we have asked the INML to carry out various analyses as your letter 2007000226 LX / BC reports.
The results were delivered to us in a letter dated 9th July 2007 ref 13.079, with a cover letter dated 11th July 2007.
Upon reading the report we observed that several DNA profiles are defined but which have not been identified.
The apartment from which the samples were collected for analysis is occupied by families from the UK.
The UK police and legal authorities have informed us about the existence of a database for the register of DNA profiles.
As the objective is to proceed to identify the profiles defined in your analyses we request that you send us the list of unidentified profiles.
This request has the objective of seeking their eventual identification through the UK legal authorities.
Goncalo Amaral
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
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I don't think he did actually, I can't remember offhand. The press did, though, I seem to remember.
I can see how that rumour originated - they did find one or more of the same haplotype as Jane's and, of course, the press didn't bother to find out what that actually signified.
PJ final report
From pages 4167 to 4182, the forensics report from the National Institute for Forensic Medicine was appended, whose conclusions do not allow for significant advances in the investigation, but which identify several different haplotypes, some of which match intervenients in the process and others without any identificative value.
Immediately, the question concerning the differentiating value of some haplotypes [haplotype (Greek haploos = single) is a combination of alleles at multiple loci that are transmitted together on the same chromosome] was raised, namely concerning JANE TANNER, page 4175, which was located in a residence in Burgau, which, in our understanding, would not be viable and logical, or to say the least, would be very strange. Therefore, in order to clarify this situation, a clarification was requested from that Institute, pages 4320 and following, which, in its reply, is peremptory in stating that there are haplotypes that are identical among each other, in a percentage that is still significant, pages 4325 to 4328. This means that the hair that was found inside that residence, while possessing the same haplotype as JANE TANNER, belongs to someone else.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
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Thanks, DCI. That saved me yet another trip to the files... 8((()*/
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Had SP no reason to be disappointed with results that, being inconclusive, were questioning the pertinence of recommending the FSS ?
Who took the decision to use the FSS?
What difference would it have made if the LCN had been done in a different country? 15 out of 37 alleles still wouldn't have been conclusive of anything wherever the test was done.
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This is where the oft-repeated myth may have originated (from the same interview I quoted earlier).
I don't know whether this is really a myth, Carana. The ice hypothesis was absurd, due to refusal of pragmatism. Moreover I'm not sure a Portuguese court would have accepted the LCN technique, had it be less inconclusive, 1) because this technique is far to be accepted outside of the UK and 2) because within a family of 5 the risk of mistake is too high.
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Who took the decision to use the FSS?
What difference would it have made if the LCN had been done in a different country? 15 out of 37 alleles still wouldn't have been conclusive of anything wherever the test was done.
You know why they sent the samples to FSS Birmingham ? This decision speaks volumes and deserves to be looked at.
The Portuguese didn't invent the FSS, they were told the FSS would get conclusive results. They knew the Lisbon forensic institute probably wouldn't because the samples were very precarious. Sending the samples to Birmingham was another mistake of the PJ. A waste of time and money.
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You know why they sent the samples to FSS Birmingham ? This decision speaks volumes and deserves to be looked at.
The Portuguese didn't invent the FSS, they were told the FSS would get conclusive results. They knew the Lisbon forensic institute probably wouldn't because the samples were very precarious. Sending the samples to Birmingham was another mistake of the PJ. A waste of time and money.
No it wasn't. It proved that there was nothing in the car, or apartment, to incriminate the Mccanns. Nothing !
When are you going to accept that Anne ?
Nothing
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You know why they sent the samples to FSS Birmingham ? This decision speaks volumes and deserves to be looked at.
The Portuguese didn't invent the FSS, they were told the FSS would get conclusive results. They knew the Lisbon forensic institute probably wouldn't because the samples were very precarious. Sending the samples to Birmingham was another mistake of the PJ. A waste of time and money.
Where did you read that, Anne?
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You know why they sent the samples to FSS Birmingham ? This decision speaks volumes and deserves to be looked at.
The Portuguese didn't invent the FSS, they were told the FSS would get conclusive results. They knew the Lisbon forensic institute probably wouldn't because the samples were very precarious. Sending the samples to Birmingham was another mistake of the PJ. A waste of time and money.
You might think it was a mistake, Anne.
But I'd hate to see what would have happened, to the McCann's, if they hadn't got proper results.
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No it wasn't. It proved that there was nothing in the car, or apartment, to incriminate the Mccanns. Nothing !
When are you going to accept that Anne ?
Nothing
The body never was in the car (only one who believes no decent person would by pass funeral rituals could make such speculation), so sending samples to Birmingham because of the LCN technique was vain. IMO. Everybody knows why this laboratory had to close.
But the dogs were very useful, not because they found decaying human remains, it was obvious they wouldn't, but because death was smelt in the 5A and not elsewhere.
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DCI
ETA: the PJ might have had a bit of a problem if they'd interviewed them a week later as they would have been entitled to read the DNA "evidence". Ooops.
DNA evidence (where are results obtained through the LCN technique accepted outside of the UK ?) is no "facto imputado", Carana.
What the law says is an arguido has the right to know, before answering questions, what he's suspect of. The difficulty in the Madeleine case is that the crime wasn't determined neither when the McCanns were made arguidos nor 10 months later !
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The body never was in the car (only one who believes no decent person would by pass funeral rituals could make such speculation), so sending samples to Birmingham because of the LCN technique was vain. IMO. Everybody knows why this laboratory had to close.
But the dogs were very useful, not because they found decaying human remains, it was obvious they wouldn't, but because death was smelt in the 5A and not elsewhere.
Citation please Anne to prove that death was smelled in 5A. Thank you in advance
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This is a new topic relating to the DNA results
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The body never was in the car (only one who believes no decent person would by pass funeral rituals could make such speculation), so sending samples to Birmingham because of the LCN technique was vain. IMO. Everybody knows why this laboratory had to close.
But the dogs were very useful, not because they found decaying human remains, it was obvious they wouldn't, but because death was smelt in the 5A and not elsewhere.
Why did the laboratory have to close?
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It was losing 2 million pounds a month.
Interesting read (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0CEAQFjACOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.publications.parliament.uk%2Fpa%2Fcm201011%2Fcmselect%2Fcmsctech%2Fwritev%2Fforensic%2Fm21.htm&ei=ln8XUtPCCebg7QbXtYC4Cw&usg=AFQjCNGH1Y7an1PUDBzK69QL6a8tZuBBoQ&sig2=o-fU09dwu1gjxbMAKJtPIw&bvm=bv.51156542,d.ZGU)
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Not one of the governments best decisions, IMO
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"As soon as he came into the house, he (Eddie) picked up a scent that he recognized".
Search of 5A video.
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"As soon as he came into the house, he (Eddie) picked up a scent that he recognized".
Search of 5A video.
Yep he recognises blood, doesn't he? .... as well as Cadavar odour
Think I am right in saying that after the Mccanns left, four other groups came in. Please tell me if I have this incorrect.
One man cut himself badly shaving and walked about the place whilst trying to stop the blood flow.
Yep, Eddie smelt blood. That's for sure
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...they were told the FSS would get conclusive results.
All any forensic laboratory can do is interpret the material it is presented with honestly and competently.
The FSS did that.
So, too, did the Portuguese forensic laboratory ...
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One man cut himself badly shaving and walked about the place whilst trying to stop the blood flow.
Since when walking about a place helps stop blood ? Anyhow he didn't walk to the bedroom : there was no blood there.
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...they were told the FSS would get conclusive results.
All any forensic laboratory can do is interpret the material it is presented with honestly and competently.
The FSS did that.
So, too, did the Portuguese forensic laboratory ...
Yes, Ferryman, but the National forensic laboratory said the chances to discover DNA were scare and the Portuguese feared controverse. The FSS' results, as you know, had been criticized in a case before and the FSS wouldn't risk (I find it right).
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Since when walking about a place helps stop blood ? Anyhow he didn't walk to the bedroom : there was no blood there.
Twisting my words again Anne
I merely said that one man walked about the place whilst trying to stop the blood flow.
I did not say that the purpose of walking around was to stop the blood flow
Please do not change the emphasis of any of my posts. It is a form of lying tbh
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DNA evidence (where are results obtained through the LCN technique accepted outside of the UK ?) is no "facto imputado", Carana.
What the law says is an arguido has the right to know, before answering questions, what he's suspect of. The difficulty in the Madeleine case is that the crime wasn't determined neither when the McCanns were made arguidos nor 10 months later !
International use of LCN
The FSS LCN test requires an ultra-clean laboratory and so is more expensive and less widely offered than the standard test.
The site of this bespoke laboratory is remote from other DNA Units, operates stringent entry requirements, is fitted with positive air pressure and specialist lighting and chemical treatments to minimise DNA contamination.
LCN methods have been used as evidence in a number of countries, ie; United States (New York), New Zealand, Holland, Italy, Germany, Croatia, Austria and Switzerland. Other countries including Belgium, Sweden, United States, Australia, Canada, Cayman Islands and Bermuda have requested this type of analysis from the FSS, who provided statements and scientists to attend Court.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/lcn_testing.html#_06
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Thanks, Carana. The best would have been intelligence, since a portuguese court wouldn't have accepted the results.
It is a pity this laboratory had to close.
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Thanks, Carana. The best would have been intelligence, since a portuguese court wouldn't have accepted the results.
It is a pity this laboratory had to close.
I presume that what I quoted above from the CPS is recent, although it's hard to tell as it isn't dated.
I doubt that the LCN results would have been accepted in a Portuguese court back in 2008 as well:
- I haven't found anything relevant on the use of LCN in Portugal so far (but I haven't actually looked that hard). There could always be a first time in terms of admitting a new type of evidence, but I would have thought that it would have had to have been generally accepted elsewhere and compelling in terms of the results - which was hardly the case in this instance by any stretch of the imagination.
- Back in 2007, early 2008, there was quite some controversy about it in the Omagh case, which led to it being suspended for a few months pending the completion of a review by the CPS. In the end, this seems to have been more of a precautionary measure, and the suspension was lifted following the review, some time around February 2008. Up until then, although it had apparently been used in the UK quite a lot, it was still considered too new to be condsidered reliable in many other countries: "Michael Buchanan said LCN DNA was only accepted as evidence in two other countries, New Zealand and the Netherlands, because of concerns over its accuracy."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7156051.stm
The judge's ruling in that case:
http://www.bailii.org/nie/cases/NICC/2007/49.html
But then, for virtually the same reasons, I doubt that the dog evidence would have been either.
From Harrison's rog: GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.
Personally, I don't find bringing in the dogs a waste of time in case they had been able to locate her. However, there would have been a much greater chance of that if they had been brought in back in mid-May. However, in this instance, the "physical evidence" would have been the LCN soup of alleles to which 3-5 people had
contributed.
Team Amaral's smoking gun in support of a wildly illogical theory was nothing more than a wisp of vapour.
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I don't know whether this is really a myth, Carana. The ice hypothesis was absurd, due to refusal of pragmatism. Moreover I'm not sure a Portuguese court would have accepted the LCN technique, had it be less inconclusive, 1) because this technique is far to be accepted outside of the UK and 2) because within a family of 5 the risk of mistake is too high.
Quite aside from Amaral's "we policemen, experts" theory of a melting corpse, there was also this gem from the same interview on Júlia's show:
DL: In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone's paternity, therefore… That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don't they have any more samples to carry out…
I've always found that "fact" rather intriguing: how could one be 3/4 of a biological parent? If that were true, there would be kids in Portugal wondering who their other 1/4 biological parents might be.
>@@(*&)
And, on the second part of that comment, I have been unable to find anything to suggest that the INML was equipped for LCN testing. It doesn't appear to have been validated in Portugal, so I don't see why they would have invested in it.
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You know why they sent the samples to FSS Birmingham ? This decision speaks volumes and deserves to be looked at.
The Portuguese didn't invent the FSS, they were told the FSS would get conclusive results. They knew the Lisbon forensic institute probably wouldn't because the samples were very precarious. Sending the samples to Birmingham was another mistake of the PJ. A waste of time and money.
On the underlined part, I think that's speculation on your part, Anne. ;)
From Amaral's book:
HARVESTING OF THE SAMPLES DERIVED FROM THE SPECIALIST DOGS’ INSPECTIONS
So that the items of evidence might constitute admissible proof, the harvesting and packing must conform to the rules avoiding all risk of deterioration and contamination. It is experts from our police forensic laboratory who carry out the harvesting. The minuscule traces cannot be gathered in situ, so the tiling is gently lifted out before being transferred to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Birmingham. Photos bear witness to every stage of the operation. For added security, it is the expert responsible for the collection who takes them to FSS on the morning of August 7th. The choice of this laboratory is not insignificant. Apart from their use of cutting-edge technologies - LCN (Low Copy Number) a DNA identification test, used particularly when only microscopic samples are available -, the results, whatever they might be will not be able to be contested by the British since it’s one of their most reliable laboratories. All other items of evidence gathered - the keys to the McCanns’ car, hair and traces of blood found in the boot - are also sent to England.
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I have been meaning to ask for some time why didn't the Portuguese do the DNA analysis instead of sending the samples to the FSS in Birmingham? Portugal must surely have been doing similar tests in other criminal cases so why do anything differently in this case? 8-)(--)
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I have been meaning to ask for some time why didn't the Portuguese do the DNA analysis instead of sending the samples to the FSS in Birmingham? Portugal must surely have been doing similar tests in other criminal cases so why do anything differently in this case? 8-)(--)
Does my post just above help?
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Does my post just above help?
Yes thanks. Could it be that the Portuguese were routinely sending samples to the FSS and this was nothing unique?
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Yes thanks. Could it be that the Portuguese were routinely sending samples to the FSS and this was nothing unique?
From what I can gather, the early samples (from 5A and other apartments, buccal swabs, etc.) were sent to the PT lab (INML). Everything UK-related (samples recovered from where Keela alerted, Madeleine's DNA, etc.) was sent to the FSS.
ETA: for the FSS, their "client" was the LP. The Home Office helped cover some of the LP's costs related to the case. It's possible, though not certain, that the HO picked up the FSS tab as part of that.
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On the underlined part, I think that's speculation on your part, Anne. ;)
From Amaral's book:
HARVESTING OF THE SAMPLES DERIVED FROM THE SPECIALIST DOGS’ INSPECTIONS
So that the items of evidence might constitute admissible proof, the harvesting and packing must conform to the rules avoiding all risk of deterioration and contamination. It is experts from our police forensic laboratory who carry out the harvesting. The minuscule traces cannot be gathered in situ, so the tiling is gently lifted out before being transferred to the Forensic Science Laboratory in Birmingham. Photos bear witness to every stage of the operation. For added security, it is the expert responsible for the collection who takes them to FSS on the morning of August 7th. The choice of this laboratory is not insignificant. Apart from their use of cutting-edge technologies - LCN (Low Copy Number) a DNA identification test, used particularly when only microscopic samples are available -, the results, whatever they might be will not be able to be contested by the British since it’s one of their most reliable laboratories. All other items of evidence gathered - the keys to the McCanns’ car, hair and traces of blood found in the boot - are also sent to England.
Of course I'm speculating, those things are never expressed. The PJ learnt through their LC collaborators about LCN, a technique the Portuguese forensic laboratories didn't master (at least yet), they had no choice ! And besides they knew that the results, being british, wouldn't be contested by the UK as about everything they did was.
Note that I'm not suggesting at all that the FSS needed money badly etc.
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Quite aside from Amaral's "we policemen, experts" theory of a melting corpse, there was also this gem from the same interview on Júlia's show:
DL: In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone's paternity, therefore… That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don't they have any more samples to carry out…
I've always found that "fact" rather intriguing: how could one be 3/4 of a biological parent? If that were true, there would be kids in Portugal wondering who their other 1/4 biological parents might be.
>@@(*&)
And, on the second part of that comment, I have been unable to find anything to suggest that the INML was equipped for LCN testing. It doesn't appear to have been validated in Portugal, so I don't see why they would have invested in it.
Who is this DL ?
I can try to find out whether the INML is doing LCN testing. I don't even know it they do it in France. Interesting technique, but not yet reliable enough.
In France (and in the US it seems) 13 loci (of repeated sequences) are examined to establish affiliation.
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Of course I'm speculating, those things are never expressed. The PJ learnt through their LC collaborators about LCN, a technique the Portuguese forensic laboratories didn't master (at least yet), they had no choice ! And besides they knew that the results, being british, wouldn't be contested by the UK as about everything they did was.
Note that I'm not suggesting at all that the FSS needed money badly etc.
At the time the samples were sent for analysis, I don't see how they could have foreseen that they would need to resort to LCN. The technicians were just trying to do the job they were asked to do.
It's not clear who paid the bill. I find it feasible that PT paid the INML bill and the UK paid the FSS (as part of their bilateral cooperation).
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I think the forensic technicians in charge of the samples were competent to doubt analysis of such microscopic traces was feasible in Portugal (there's a video of their work). May be a part was but they decided to send all the samples to the UK.
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Who is this DL ?
I can try to find out whether the INML is doing LCN testing. I don't even know it they do it in France. Interesting technique, but not yet reliable enough.
In France (and in the US it seems) 13 loci (of repeated sequences) are examined to establish affiliation.
Where did you find that?
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(LCN DNA) Interesting technique, but not yet reliable enough.
LCN DNA convicted Stephen Lawerence's murderers ...
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(LCN DNA) Interesting technique, but not yet reliable enough.
LCN DNA convicted Stephen Lawerence's murderers ...
And quite a few others.
From what I can gather, it's a technique requiring specialised methodology, training, interpretation, accountability of each participating technician and sterile conditions. I have found nothing odd in Lowe's report at all.
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A little more credible than an internet sleuth trying to fnd a cnnection between white lorries across continents, as if here was only one. LOL
Exactly.. Eddie's indications reached the FSS level.. and that's where the credibility stopped!
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Exactly.. Eddie's indications reached the FSS level.. and that's where the credibility stopped!
No the fss have no ability to say whether eddies alerts were right or wrong, so wrong there
carry on looking for your lorry though, i reckon you have thousands to get through!
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No the fss have no ability to say whether eddies alerts were right or wrong, so wrong there
carry on looking for your lorry though, i reckon you have thousands to get through!
They are very able! .. FSS did find the clear DNA of two PJ officers at points where Eddie indicated @)(++(*
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now you are telling porkies, if not, back it up, ta
8((()*/
But going back to the point you avoided, the fss cannot cnfirm any cadaverscent, they havent th means to
FSS results:
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
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FSS results:
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
So not the CLEAR DNA as you posted
Bit like not the clear DNA of Madeeine but all registered conponents matched hey?
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So not the CLEAR DNA as you posted
Bit like not the clear DNA of Madeeine but all registered conponents matched hey?
Madeleine's DNA was never identified.. This people's DNA was identified..
Plus these people are alive.. Why was Eddie seeing them as dead?
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Madeleine's DNA was never identified.. This people's DNA was identified..
Plus these people are alive.. Why was Eddie seeing them as dead?
Yes components of Madeleine DNA were identified.
To state otherwise is ridiculous.
Who are "this people?"
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Yes components of Madeleine DNA were identified.
To state otherwise is ridiculous.
Who are "this people?"
I have no nerves to explain. I suggest you read the files..
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Madeleine's DNA was never identified.. This people's DNA was identified..
Plus these people are alive.. Why was Eddie seeing them as dead?
No this peoples dna was NOT identified any much more than Madeleines
but never mind we are told the dna foundin this case could have come from anyone in the world!
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I have no nerves to explain. I suggest you read the files..
Well that won't do
If you are unable ( or unwilling ) to explain the assertions you make then they have no place on this forum
We don't 'do' myths here
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Yes components of Madeleine DNA were identified.
To state otherwise is ridiculous.
Who are "this people?"
Components of Madeleines DNA?
Are you referring to the components that according to the FSS are common in a high proprtion of us ?
If I am wrong, please can you identify your source.
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Madeleine's DNA was never identified.. This people's DNA was identified..
Plus these people are alive.. Why was Eddie seeing them as dead?
Brilliant point VIXTE. Yep, why was Eddie seeing them as dead?
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Components of Madeleines DNA?
Are you referring to the components that according to the FSS are common in a high proprtion of us ?
If I am wrong, please can you identify your source.
Oh yes that's right.
"Only" 15/19 alleles.
Tell me, which deceased member of the population laid in the McCann wardrobe and car?
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Oh yes that's right.
"Only" 15/19 alleles.
Tell me, which deceased member of the population laid in the McCann wardrobe and car?
Whatever the number , they are the same number of Alleles as a huge section of the population.
Try and get your facts right please Swiskers.
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Oh yes that's right.
"Only" 15/19 alleles.
Tell me, which deceased member of the population laid in the McCann wardrobe and car?
FSS cannot distinguish the if the particulars were dead or alive..
Eddie also pointed at the car fob, on the fob Gerry's DNA was found,, and Gerry is ALIVE..
OUTROS APENSOS I, volume II
Pages 300 to 326
Witness Deposition
(Criminal Procedure Rules, r27.1 (1);
Criminal Justice Act 1967, s.9; Magistrates' Courts Act 1980, s.5B)
Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18
Profession of Witness: Forensic Scientist
Address of Witness:
Forensic Science Service Ltd.,
Birmingham Laboratory, Priory House, Gooch Street North,
Birmingham, B5 6QQ
With respect to:
References FSS: 300 655 190 / 400 947 125
References Client: 07/06085, 201/07.0GALGS
CJS URN:
Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
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FSS cannot distinguish the if the particulars were dead or alive..
Eddie also pointed at the car fob, on the fob Gerry's DNA was found,, and Gerry is ALIVE..
OUTROS APENSOS I, volume II
Pages 300 to 326
Witness Deposition
(Criminal Procedure Rules, r27.1 (1);
Criminal Justice Act 1967, s.9; Magistrates' Courts Act 1980, s.5B)
Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18
Profession of Witness: Forensic Scientist
Address of Witness:
Forensic Science Service Ltd.,
Birmingham Laboratory, Priory House, Gooch Street North,
Birmingham, B5 6QQ
With respect to:
References FSS: 300 655 190 / 400 947 125
References Client: 07/06085, 201/07.0GALGS
CJS URN:
Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
To be admissible in trial, DNA has to be 100%.
If the certainty is only 99% it cannot be used at trial as "proof", but even an idiot would realise that its a darn good indicator.
The DNA in this case is only around 80% certainty. This 20% window is constantly used as "proof of innocence" by Team McCann - much like the 20% doubt Mr Smith had that it was Gerry he saw.
Now, if I win lotto, and have to share it with 4 other people, I have still won lotto!
The wonderful thing about science is the advances constantly being made. Low copy DNA, which has presented us with a 20% doubt, will soon be capable of 100% certainty. End of loophole.
So can someone tell me - which female child of Kate and Gerry laid around long enough to decompose?
Not Amelie, she made it out alive....
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So she died in 5a?
The burglar stole a dead child?
No, he took his DNA with him. Post-modern burglars know about DNA and cellphones' pings.
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No, he took his DNA with him. Post-modern burglars know about DNA and cellphones' pings.
IMO his phone was pinged.. and if he moved from 5A to the place of Smiths sighting it is possible he 'changed' mobile phone towers.. my search showed 2 towers in PDL..
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You are making very serious allegations there SWiskers, intimating that Madeleine decomposed in 5A
And you still haven't provided me with a scenario that accounts for the DNA at the cadaver alert sites!
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so sue him!
Thats for the Mccanns if they can be bothered with him
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And you still haven't provided me with a scenario that accounts for the DNA at the cadaver alert sites!
Why should I? I dont believe that there is any cadavar proof ... and neither did the PJ
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If the cadaver dog reaction to the car was for cadaver body scent you are right but i cant see a scenario where the mccanns moved her body in their car three weeks later, but perhaps it was contamination
the dog point at the car fob - it comes out as a live person's dna
the dog points at tiles behind the sofa - it is a live person's dna
the dog points at wardrobe - inconclusive
What is the probability that the wardrobe's dna is a dna of a dead person?
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the dog point at the car fob - it comes out as an live person's dna
the dog points at tiles behind the sofa - it is an live person's dna
the dog points at wardrobe - unconclusive
What is the probability that the wardrobe's dna is a dna of a dead person?
Exactly !
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If the cadaver dog reaction to the car was for cadaver body scent you are right but i cant see a scenario where the mccanns moved her body in their car three weeks later, but perhaps it was contamination
Contamination likely. I can't see such a scenario either. What for ? To insure some holy burial ? It seems Roman Catholics believe it's required for resurrection.
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To be admissible in trial, DNA has to be 100%.
If the certainty is only 99% it cannot be used at trial as "proof", but even an idiot would realise that its a darn good indicator.
The DNA in this case is only around 80% certainty. This 20% window is constantly used as "proof of innocence" by Team McCann - much like the 20% doubt Mr Smith had that it was Gerry he saw.
Now, if I win lotto, and have to share it with 4 other people, I have still won lotto!
The wonderful thing about science is the advances constantly being made. Low copy DNA, which has presented us with a 20% doubt, will soon be capable of 100% certainty. End of loophole.
So can someone tell me - which female child of Kate and Gerry laid around long enough to decompose?
Not Amelie, she made it out alive....
I don't remember percentages being quoted by the FSS? Can you provide the cite please?
You don't have to be dead to leave DNA around btw.
As Madeleine inherited her DNA from her parents, then if their DNA was in the car which is highly likely - it would obviously produce the same components as in Madeleine's DNA. There could also be components of other family members DNA present in the sample.
I believe there were 37 components in total found in the sample - not 19 as some people keep trying to claim.
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the dog point at the car fob - it comes out as a live person's dna
the dog points at tiles behind the sofa - it is a live person's dna
If you want to be exact then none of that is true
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I don't remember percentages being quoted by the FSS? Can you provide the cite please?
You don't have to be dead to leave DNA around btw.
As Madeleine inherited her DNA from her parents, then if their DNA was in the car which is highly likely - it would obviously produce the same components as in Madeleine's DNA. There could also be components of other family members DNA present in the sample.
I believe there were 37 components in total found in the sample - not 19 as some people keep trying to claim.
From Lowes report: A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.
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I don't remember percentages being quoted by the FSS? Can you provide the cite please?
You don't have to be dead to leave DNA around btw.
As Madeleine inherited her DNA from her parents, then if their DNA was in the car which is highly likely - it would obviously produce the same components as in Madeleine's DNA. There could also be components of other family members DNA present in the sample.
I believe there were 37 components in total found in the sample - not 19 as some people keep trying to claim.
How about providing a cite for your own bizarre theories?
Where is the FSS report stating the DNA located at the cadaver sites is definitely NOT Madeleine?
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How about providing a cite for your own bizarre theories?
Where is the FSS report stating the DNA located at the cadaver sites is definitely NOT Madeleine?
It does not exist
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It does not exist
Precisely.
It doesn't exist.
I bet my house they could exclude me though - and you and 99% of posters on this board.
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15 alleles on 19 matched hers. Had they been 19 that would have been certain.
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How about providing a cite for your own bizarre theories?
Where is the FSS report stating the DNA located at the cadaver sites is definitely NOT Madeleine?
OK.. can you point out a link where the FSS states that any DNA profile obtained from the sites is Madeleine's?
Or possibly Madeleine's?
I can help you.. here is Lowe's report:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
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OK.. can you point out a link where the FSS states that any DNA profile obtained from the sites is Madeleine's?
Or possibly Madeleine's?
I can help you.. here is Lowe's report:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
You first.
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You first.
Well, I already posted mine.
Now it is up to you to prove your statements!
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How about providing a cite for your own bizarre theories?
Where is the FSS report stating the DNA located at the cadaver sites is definitely NOT Madeleine?
It is you making the claims - so it's up to you to provide the evidence to back them up.
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Well, I already posted mine.
Now it is up to you to prove your statements!
I have no problem proving that the DNA tested did not exclude Madeleine.
Its black and white. There is no such report.
If there was Team McCann would have thrust it down our throats by now.
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I have no problem proving that the DNA tested did not exclude Madeleine.
Its black and white. There is no such report.
If there was Team McCann would have thrust it down our throats by now.
Please post the link.
Otherwise you sound like a delusional politician..
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Please post the link.
Otherwise you sound like a delusional politician..
I cannot post a link to a report that doesn't exist.
You are the one claiming the DNA exonerates the McCann, not I.
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Eddie told us she died in 5a.
Now the media trained BHH has used the word "murder" for the first time ever.
Is he the most senior officer in Britain? Yes. Is his job largely a figurehead, a political position which requires him to be the Face of SY in public? Yes.
Do police know a lot more about crimes and evidence than we do? Yes.
If BHH tosses off the word murder it is not a slip of the tongue. He's been around the block, had hours of media training.
Murder.......! Not manslaughter or homicide, but Murder.
That tells me that they have evidence of intentional killing.
Ugh.......
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Eddie told us she died in 5a.
Now the media trained BHH has used the word "murder" for the first time ever.
Is he the most senior officer in Britain? Yes. Is his job largely a figurehead, a political position which requires him to be the Face of SY in public? Yes.
Do police know a lot more about crimes and evidence than we do? Yes.
If BHH tosses off the word murder it is not a slip of the tongue. He's been around the block, had hours of media training.
Murder.......! Not manslaughter or homicide, but Murder.
That tells me that they have evidence of intentional killing.
Ugh.......
when did you speak to eddie
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Eddie told us she died in 5a.
No, 'he' never..
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No, 'he' never..
Well, thats an opinion isnt it? Not a fact. You can't say Eddie did not alert to the scent of a dead body
Same way SW is asserting it was
So no difference there really, albeit there is the fact a child disappeared from there, so the possiblity remains Eddie did exactly that in the absence of any evidence he did not
Gnite
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Well, thats an opinion isnt it? Not a fact. You can't say Eddie did not alert to the scent of a dead body
Same way SW is asserting it was
So no difference there really, albeit there is the fact a child disappeared from there, so the possiblity remains Eddie did exactly that in the absence of any evidence he did not
Gnite
It is not an option. There was no dead body..And scientifically too, there was no proof of a dead body..
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It is not an option.
Yes it is
There was no dead body
You are in no position to assert this
.And scientifically too, there was no proof of a dead body..
Well, thats limited in its abilities
......
Laters
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......
Well, thats limited in its abilities
Laters
Ah, then we can same way say there are purple eyed mouse like creatures on planet Neptune, living in a snail like housings which they constantly carry with them.. but it is out of our ability really to currently communicate with them.. @)(++(*
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Madeleine's DNA wasn't found in 5A (they had to get it in England) so does that mean she never existed? Of course not. Did the abductor clean the flat before leaving. This abductor was crazy and had loads of time on his hands to open noisy shutters and window that weren't used, move doors back and forth to puzzle Gerry, drug the kids and then clean the flat whilst regular checks were going on. Maybe the invisible man does exist. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent.
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Madeleine's DNA wasn't found in 5A (they had to get it in England) so does that mean she never existed? Of course not. Did the abductor clean the flat before leaving. This abductor was crazy and had loads of time on his hands to open noisy shutters and window that weren't used, move doors back and forth to puzzle Gerry, drug the kids and then clean the flat whilst regular checks were going on. Maybe the invisible man does exist. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent.
Untrue. Madeleine's DNA was in 5A but it would be safer to clarify her DNA from a neutral source.
To be honest, I don't remember that Madeleines DNA being brought from the UK was ever mentioned in the files.. meaning that it might be a myth.. I have to check up on this.
Secondly, several 'partial' DNAs were found in 5A belonging to unknown people.. This is in the files.
I am not sure how partial there were. But in case they find the culprit by other means ( phone traffic for example) then they can possibly compare the person's DNA with partial DNA profiles found in the apartment..
Eddie alerted to 3 live human beings. Fact!
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Madeleine's DNA wasn't found in 5A (they had to get it in England) so does that mean she never existed? Of course not. Did the abductor clean the flat before leaving. This abductor was crazy and had loads of time on his hands to open noisy shutters and window that weren't used, move doors back and forth to puzzle Gerry, drug the kids and then clean the flat whilst regular checks were going on. Maybe the invisible man does exist. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent.
There was a three month gap between The Abduction and The Dogs. The appartment was cleaned several times by OC Cleaners. At least I hope it was.
There will have been DNA of Madeleine, but probably contaminated by others, so they couldn't be sure.
Eddie was not a "Cadaver Dog" initially so he was always flawed on that count.
And all Cadaver Dogs react to body fluids from live people if there is no Cadaver present.
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The additional posts have been added re DNA.
All assumptions concerning DNA should be linked imo. I've read ones that discredit this forum, John.
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this IS taken from the AG archiving report...at least they understood the dogs..
These dogs, which had already been used on multiple occasions by the Scotland Yard and by the FBI with positive results, are evidence collection means and do not serve as evidence; any residue, even if invisible to the naked eye, which is collected using this type of dogs, has to be subject to forensics testing in a credentialed laboratory.
So it sates that the dogs are evidence collection...they find evidence...nothing more
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This thread relates primarily to DNA but I have allowed some posts concerning cadaver dogs where there is an overlap.
If your post relates specifically to scent dogs please use the link below... TY
www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1513.0
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15 alleles on 19 matched hers. Had they been 19 that would have been certain.
You do understand that these 15 components are also partly present in both Kate McCann and Gerry McCann DNA profiles as Madeleine inherited 50:50 of her DNA profile from both parents?????
As did both Sean and Amelie.
And you do understand that these 15 components are out of 37 components which belong to different people, at least three individuals?
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
Further more if you say 'but only Madeleine is possibly dead and Eddie pointed at a cadaver scent' you have to be aware that other 3 places where Eddie alerted produced almost full DNA profiles identifying 3 people who are alive.. so there is no reason to think that Eddie wouldn't point at the 4th place ( the car) where also the alive persons DNA was present.
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I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts on this thread (joys of an editor) but reference is being made to the 13 alleles in identifying Madeleine. Given that she had twin siblings and biologically related parents it would not be unusual for them to share DNA markers to a high extent. Identical twins are the only people who have identical genetic markers.
However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that some of their genetic markers will be similar.
In those circumstances therefore, a DNA match of 18 or more would be required to prove a specific match to someone in the family imo.
If her siblings or parents had not used the hire car the 13 alleles could very well have proven sufficient.
In the UK a match of 10 pairs of markers or 20 alleles is required for a match under the Law whereas in the USA a match of 13 alleles is accepted. Does anyone happen to know what Portuguese Law accepts and whether when the FSS made ther determination they were applying UK standards to Portugal?
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I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts on this thread (joys of an editor) but reference is being made to the 13 alleles in identifying Madeleine. Given that she had twin siblings and biologically related parents it would not be unusual for them to share DNA markers to a high extent. Identical twins are the only people who have identical genetic markers.
However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that some of their genetic markers will be similar.
In those circumstances therefore, a DNA match of 18 or more would be required to prove a specific match to someone in the family imo.
If her siblings or parents had not used the hire car the 13 alleles could very well have proven sufficient.
In the UK a match of 10 pairs of markers or 20 alleles is required for a match under the Law whereas in the USA a match of 13 alleles is accepted. Does anyone happen to know what Portuguese Law accepts and whether when the FSS made ther determination they were applying UK standards to Portugal?
In this case this doesn't count as the parents used the car and the brother and sister as well.. and it is completely expected to find these partials in the car..
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You do understand that these 15 components are also partly present in both Kate McCann and Gerry McCann DNA profiles as Madeleine inherited 50:50 of her DNA profile from both parents?????
As did both Sean and Amelie.
And you do understand that these 15 components are out of 37 components which belong to different people, at least three individuals?
Further more if you say 'but only Madeleine is possibly dead and Eddie pointed at a cadaver scent' you have to be aware that other 3 places where Eddie alerted produced almost full DNA profiles identifying 3 people who are alive.. so there is no reason to think that Eddie wouldn't point at the 4th place ( the car) where also the alive persons DNA was present.
If you are going to post can you make sure you get your facts right and/or give links
- Eddie did not alert to three places in the apartment behind the sofa which is the area where you post about, vis a vis dna found, he made one alert in the general area and no ones knows if he was alerting to cadaver scent or blood
- Eddie did not alert to dna profiles
- There were no three almost full dna profiles
- There was a mixed sample from more than one person where confirmed markers matched Madeleines
- Please stop saying Eddie alerts to living humans
- Material was collected around the areas Keela alerted to, she alerts to blood, thats the only reason swabs were taken, which may have included remnant dna from non bleeders
- The key fob also did not contain a full dna profile
Bit of a dogs dinner isnt it?
ETA
BTW it s not a myth that Madeleines dna profile was sent from the UK to Portugal, it is a fact! Her profile was extracted from a pillowcase retrieved from home and sent around 22/05/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm
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If you are going to post can you make sure you get your facts right and/or give links
- Eddie did not alert to three places in the apartment behind the sofa which is the area where you post about, vis a vis dna found, he made one alert in the general area and no ones knows if he was alerting to cadaver scent or blood
- Eddie did not alert to dna profiles
- There were no three almost full dna profiles
- There was a mixed sample from more than one person where confirmed markers matched Madeleines
- Please stop saying Eddie alerts to living humans
- Material was collected around the areas Keela alerted to, she alerts to blood, thats the only reason swabs were taken, which may have included remnant dna from non bleeders
- The key fob also did not contain a full dna profile
Bit of a dogs dinner isnt it?
If the key passed some time in Mrs McCann's famous pants (her favourite according to the pictures), it could have been contaminated.
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If the key passed some time in Mrs McCann's famous pants (her favourite according to the pictures), it could have been contaminated.
Yes, the point is we just dont know, even mr Grime offers both possibilities vis a vis the car , ie blood or cadaver scent contaminant (but not re the apartment)****
@John
I havent got a link but Im pretty sure in Portugal the dna marker match requirement is extremely high, 18 or 19 , I will see if I can find it
****
Report after car searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent.
Report regarding home searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
contamination.
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Yes, the point is we just dont know, even mr Grime offers both possibilities vis a vis the car , ie blood or cadaver scent contaminant (but not re the apartment)****
@John
I havent got a link but Im pretty sure in Portugal the dna marker match requirement is extremely high, 18 or 19 , I will see if I can find it
****
Report after car searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent.
Report regarding home searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
contamination.
Cadaver scent contaminant. Mr Grime could hardly say more since no substance was found.
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If you are going to post can you make sure you get your facts right and/or give links
- Eddie did not alert to three places in the apartment behind the sofa which is the area where you post about, vis a vis dna found, he made one alert in the general area and no ones knows if he was alerting to cadaver scent or blood
Are you sure? Eddie did actually alert behind the sofa
In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.
- Eddie did not alert to dna profiles
True. But the places where Eddie alerted were sent to the lab to investigate why Eddie alerted there.. This was the purpose of Eddie.. to pinpoint the places which the labs later investigate.
- There were no three almost full dna profiles
Yes there were
On the samples three DNA profiles were identified:
- A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card(286C/2007-CRL(12)).
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
- There was a mixed sample from more than one person where confirmed markers matched Madeleines
Markers never matched Madeleine. Can you point the place in the files where it is confirmed that the markers matched Madeleine?
- Please stop saying Eddie alerts to living humans
Eddie does do that.. because Eddie also alerts to dried blood from live humans
- Material was collected around the areas Keela alerted to, she alerts to blood, thats the only reason swabs were taken, which may have included remnant dna from non bleeders
That is not in the files, it is your own opinion.
- The key fob also did not contain a full dna profile
True, it was incomplete, but FSS said it matched Gerry.
Bit of a dogs dinner isnt it?
Yes. A bit.
ETA
BTW it s not a myth that Madeleines dna profile was sent from the UK to Portugal, it is a fact! Her profile was extracted from a pillowcase retrieved from home and sent around 22/05/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm
Thank you.. but where does it say in that link that Madeleine's DNA was obtained from the UK?
I do remember newspapers reports about Gerry going to UK for this reason but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the files.
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Yes, the point is we just dont know, even mr Grime offers both possibilities vis a vis the car , ie blood or cadaver scent contaminant (but not re the apartment)****
@John
I havent got a link but Im pretty sure in Portugal the dna marker match requirement is extremely high, 18 or 19 , I will see if I can find it
****
Report after car searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent.
Report regarding home searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
contamination.
Thanks for that Red
I did not know that Martin Grimes had made that important distinction between the cadaver dog's alerts to the car and those he made in the McCanns apartment
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It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent.
And which is it?
Out of 4 times Eddie alerted 3 times to a human blood - or whatever.. but human
4th time is inconclusive.
So you are arguing that this 4th time is the cadaver scent?
Why would it be? Why cannot it be human 'scent' as previous 3 times ( Gerry plus 2 officers)
How much probability that would be mathematically?
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And which is it?
Out of 4 times Eddie alerted 3 times to a human blood - or whatever.. but human
4th time is inconclusive.
So you are arguing that this 4th time is the cadaver scent?
Why would it be? Why cannot it be human 'scent' as previous 3 times ( Gerry plus 2 officers)
How much probability that would be mathematically?
Why do you struggle so much with the Cadaver dog locating Cadaver?
Why is it so impossible in your world?
Many police forces rely on EVRD dogs daily. Why is Eddie the only one who is unreliable?
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Why do you struggle so much with the Cadaver dog locating Cadaver?
Why is it so impossible in your world?
Many police forces rely on EVRD dogs daily. Why is Eddie the only one who is unreliable?
Eddie pointed out at the fob with Gerry's DNA and to two places where the two DNAs from the police officers were found. Are they dead?
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Eddie pointed out at the fob with Gerry's DNA and to two places where the two DNAs from the police officers were found. Are they dead?
Of course you have a link for that, which you are going to supply to back up that allegation?
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Of course you have a link for that, which you are going to supply to back up that allegation?
Oh I posted it 100 times since yesterday.. have a look back and you will find it..
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Here you go.. a summary:
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078028/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2029
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[....abusive quote removed by admin.... ]
The link has all the PJ files links.. one by one..
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Of course you have a link for that, which you are going to supply to back up that allegation?
On the samples three DNA profiles were identified:
- A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card(286C/2007-CRL(12)).
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
All three of the above mentioned people are (were at the time) still very much alive. Fernando Viegas and Lino Henriques are Portuguese Forensic experts.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm#p10p2617-2623
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On the samples three DNA profiles were identified:
- A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card(286C/2007-CRL(12)).
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
All three of the above mentioned people are (were at the time) still very much alive. Fernando Viegas and Lino Henriques are Portuguese Forensic experts.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm#p10p2617-2623
*sigh*
I'll try to explain the flaw in your logic with small words.
Cadaver is not DNA.
Cadaver was indicated on the items
If a person touches a body, say while lugging it into a car, then he touches a set of keys, the Cadaver will transfer from his hands onto the keys.
He may or may not transfer his own DNA too, if he was sweating it is likely he did.
Do you follow? The Cadaver alert did not relate to a live person, it relates to what a live person had just touched.
[ .... unsupported allegation removed by admin... ]
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*sigh*
I'll try to explain the flaw in your logic with small words.
Cadaver is not DNA.
Cadaver was indicated on the items
If a person touches a body, say while lugging it into a car, then he touches a set of keys, the Cadaver will transfer from his hands onto the keys.
He may or may not transfer his own DNA too, if he was sweating it is likely he did.
Do you follow? The Cadaver alert did not relate to a live person, it relates to what a live person had just touched.
[ .... unsupported allegation removed by admin... ]
Nonsense.
If you believe that, three months after Madeleine disappeared, then I don't know what to say..
Eddie alerts on blood too.. so how do you know YOU know it ain't blood but 'the scent'
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Nonsense.
If you believe that, three months after Madeleine disappeared, then I don't know what to say..
Eddie alerts on blood too.. so how do you know YOU know it ain't blood but 'the scent'
Because the PJ files say so.
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Because the PJ files say so.
Where do the PJ files say it? Can you provide the link?
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Where do the PJ files say it? Can you provide the link?
Report by Inspector Tavares de Almeida
Processos Vol X
Pages 2604 to 2608
Dated 3 September 2007.
This work resulted in 'alerts' by both dogs:
- cadaver odour [was alerted to]:
>> in the lounge, next to one of the windows, of apartment 5A;
>> in the current residence of the family, a soft toy of the girl Madeleine;
>> on various pieces of clothing;
>> on the key of the car used by the family;
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Report by Inspector Tavares de Almeida
Processos Vol X
Pages 2604 to 2608
Dated 3 September 2007.
This work resulted in 'alerts' by both dogs:
- cadaver odour [was alerted to]:
>> in the lounge, next to one of the windows, of apartment 5A;
>> in the current residence of the family, a soft toy of the girl Madeleine;
>> on various pieces of clothing;
>> on the key of the car used by the family;
And this proves what? It is just a report where the dog alerted.. Cadave odour is nothing without a lab proof that a dead body was there.. especially after three months and especially because the same cadaver dog also alerts on dried blood from a live human beings.. the dog cannot distinguish whether he is alerting on dried blood or on cadaver.. therefore you cannot interpret it as a sign that a dead body was there..
Inspector Tavares de Almeida never made any conclusions on a dead body being there, he just plainly marked where the dog alerted.. he is clever enough to wait for the labs to decide what the dog has pointed at..
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And this proves what? It is just a report where the dog alerted.. Cadave odour is nothing without a lab proof that a dead body was there.. especially after three months and especially because the same cadaver dog also alerts on dried blood from a live human beings.. the dog cannot distinguish whether he is alerting on dried blood or on cadaver.. therefore you cannot interpret it as a sign that a dead body was there..
Inspector Tavares de Almeida never made any conclusions on a dead body being there, he just plainly marked where the dog alerted.. he is clever enough to wait for the labs to decide what the dog has pointed at..
Your ability to deny is remarkable.
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Nonsense.
If you believe that, three months after Madeleine disappeared, then I don't know what to say..
Eddie alerts on blood too.. so how do you know YOU know it ain't blood but 'the scent'
To be fair, the dog alerts; samples, if found, are taken and examined; results are obtained. It is not certain that the dog alerted to the samples obtained.
The one that is hard to explain is the alert where no samples were found.
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Report by Inspector Tavares de Almeida
Processos Vol X
Pages 2604 to 2608
Dated 3 September 2007.
This work resulted in 'alerts' by both dogs:
- cadaver odour [was alerted to]:
>> in the lounge, next to one of the windows, of apartment 5A;
>> in the current residence of the family, a soft toy of the girl Madeleine;
>> on various pieces of clothing;
>> on the key of the car used by the family;
Tavares was wrong...this is confirmred in the AG archiving report...the PJ got it wrong...this is confirmed in the AG report...Tavares is another convicted criminal but is still a serving PJ officer.
Tavares report is contradicted by Grime...and hes the expert...but if posters want to continue to make fools of themselves by claiming there is proof of a cadaver in 5a then please go ahead
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Thanks for that Red
I did not know that Martin Grimes had made that important distinction between the cadaver dog's alerts to the car and those he made in the McCanns apartment
I didn't either. It certainly looks like a significant statement....
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Yes, the point is we just dont know, even mr Grime offers both possibilities vis a vis the car , ie blood or cadaver scent contaminant (but not re the apartment)****
@John
I havent got a link but Im pretty sure in Portugal the dna marker match requirement is extremely high, 18 or 19 , I will see if I can find it
****
Report after car searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent.
Report regarding home searches
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
contamination.
You note he always says ''cadaver SCENT'' and never ''a cadaver''. This is because he is aware that cadaver scent does not necessarily equate to a dead body being the reason for an alert. IIRC - Isn't this what happened in Jersey where a large number of milk teeth were unearthed as a result of one of Eddie's alerts? (from memory so could be wrong).
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Reading between the lines several points can be deduced.
A. It is not known what Eddie alerted to.
B. The DNA profiles wrt Madeleine were inconclusive.
C. The EVRD alerts and DNA profiling were effectively meaningless.
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The one that is hard to explain is the alert where no samples were found.
Well, that is nothing again.. To develop the cadaver scent the body had to be there for hours.. which was impossible in Madeleine's case as at 7pm she was seen by David Payne.
Also, not sure about this, but I think that rigor mortis appear later in children due to low body mass and that this would also prolong the appearance of cadaver scent.
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Well, that is nothing again.. To develop the cadaver scent the body had to be there for hours.. which was impossible in Madeleine's case as at 7pm she was seen by David Payne.
Also, not sure about this, but I think that rigor mortis appear later in children due to low body mass and that this would also prolong the appearance of cadaver scent.
If she died then it most probably happened just before 7pm and they will be looking very closely at DP and his visit at 6.30-40. He can't even remember what Kate was wearing and said he went inside. Kate said she was wearing just a towel and he never came inside - was only there for 30 seconds. And one can't forget those sick allegations against DP. >@@(*&)
p.s. that quiz mistress couldn't remember seeing Kate or DP at the table on TUE night when Gerry invited her to join them. The night Madeleine was reported to be crying by Pamela Fenn and a cot reported to be in the parents bedroom the next day by the cleaner.
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Reading between the lines several points can be deduced.
A. It is not known what Eddie alerted to.
B. The DNA profiles wrt Madeleine were inconclusive.
C. The EVRD alerts and DNA profiling were effectively meaningless.
No for A and C.
A. No residue was found where Eddie alone alerted (3 places in G5A).
C. The DNA substance found at CSI's only alert didn't belong to the missing child.
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If she died then it most probably happened just before 7pm and they will be looking very closely at DP and his visit at 6.30-40. He can't even remember what Kate was wearing and said he went inside. Kate said she was wearing just a towel and he never came inside - was only there for 30 seconds. And one can't forget those sick allegations against DP. >@@(*&)
p.s. that quiz mistress couldn't remember seeing Kate or DP at the table on TUE night when Gerry invited her to join them. The night Madeleine was reported to be crying by Pamela Fenn and a cot reported to be in the parents bedroom the next day by the cleaner.
IMO the whole group was checked up by SY.. they would be their first line of call when revisiting the case.. and if SY has decided the group was not involved than I am happy with that too..
I believe SY does have a sophisticated software where they get the percentages of the possibility that this or that happened. I know these types of software are present for marketing and sales purposes, so believe there is something similar in policing..
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IMO the whole group was checked up by SY.. they would be their first line of call when revisiting the case.. and if SY has decided the group was not involved than I am happy with that too..
I believe SY does have a sophisticated software where they get the percentages of the possibility that this or that happened. I know these types of software are present for marketing and sales purposes, so believe there is something similar in policing..
There are big discrepancies about that visit - if you think they are going to ignore these then you are living on a different planet. They will follow all other leads first to cover all possibilities until one is left. With the discrepancies of that visit and the daily routine change happening for the first time of the week (kids not going out to play) - then that time period stands out as being very suspicious and if anything happened to Madeleine this is the time that it probably did.
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There are big discrepancies about that visit - if you think they are going to ignore these then you are living on a different planet. They will follow all other leads first to cover all possibilities until one is left. With the discrepancies of that visit and the daily routine change happening for the first time of the week (kids not going out to play) - then that time period stands out as being very suspicious and if anything happened to Madeleine this is the time that it probably did.
IMO this was checked.. SY has an ability to check DP from his nappies times to now..
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I believe SY does have a sophisticated software where they get the percentages of the possibility that this or that happened. I know these types of software are present for marketing and sales purposes, so believe there is something similar in policing..
It would be interesting to see.
Probabilities around the dogs.
Probabilities around changing statements.
Probabilities around timelines.
Probabilities around sleeping twins.
Etc. etc.
The combined probabilities of them all being explained innocently is fairly small statistically speaking.
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There are big discrepancies about that visit - if you think they are going to ignore these then you are living on a different planet. They will follow all other leads first to cover all possibilities until one is left. With the discrepancies of that visit and the daily routine change happening for the first time of the week (kids not going out to play) - then that time period stands out as being very suspicious and if anything happened to Madeleine this is the time that it probably did.
One would certainly hope so, and that they don't throw their hand in when they cannot find any trace of an abductor.
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One would certainly hope so, and that they don't throw their hand in when they cannot find any trace of an abductor.
I believe they already found this trace..
Thanks to technology..
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I believe they already found this trace..
Thanks to technology..
They know what mobiles were being used in PDL at the time?
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They know what mobiles were being used in PDL at the time?
That is the most important data.. I don't see the reason why they should not deeply concentrate on this...again.. in our times this is not analysed by hand and by looking at it.. like we do on forums..
I used to work on large amounts of data analysing, not for the police, but in general.. I know this is possible..
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I believe they already found this trace..
Thanks to technology..
I don't think they have, but time will tell.
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That is the most important data.. I don't see the reason why they should not deeply concentrate on this...again.. in our times this is not analysed by hand and by looking at it.. like we do on forums..
I used to work on large amounts of data analysing, not for the police, but in general.. I know this is possible..
It may well be possible, but may not come up with a result.
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No for A and C.
A. No residue was found where Eddie alone alerted (3 places in G5A).
C. The DNA substance found at CSI's only alert didn't belong to the missing child.
I don't understand what you are saying here Anne?? 8-)(--)
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That is the most important data.. I don't see the reason why they should not deeply concentrate on this...again.. in our times this is not analysed by hand and by looking at it.. like we do on forums..
I used to work on large amounts of data analysing, not for the police, but in general.. I know this is possible..
So did I, and the first thing to do is to identify what the data tell us. It tells us that a Sim Card was in a phone in a certain area at a certain time.
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I don't understand what you are saying here Anne?? 8-)(--)
Trying to say it another way.
A. The EVRD alerted on 4 places (two inside, two outside of the 5A). The CSI was brought on those 4 spots but reacted only on one where some residue was found. There was no residue on the 3 other places, only impalpable VOCs.
C. The DNA of the residue found by the CSI didn't belong to the missing child.
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That is the most important data.. I don't see the reason why they should not deeply concentrate on this...again.. in our times this is not analysed by hand and by looking at it.. like we do on forums..
I used to work on large amounts of data analysing, not for the police, but in general.. I know this is possible..
Child abductors aren't in the habit of registering their mobile phones. Therein lies Redwoods problem!
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It would be interesting to see.
Probabilities around the dogs.
Probabilities around changing statements.
Probabilities around timelines.
Probabilities around sleeping twins.
Etc. etc.
The combined probabilities of them all being explained innocently is fairly small statistically speaking.
That I think, Slarti, sums it up. 8((()*/
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Child abductors aren't in the habit of registering their mobile phones. Therein lies Redwoods problem!
A phone doesn't need to be registered if any of its contacts are.. also majority of the shops selling the unregistered mobile phones have CCTVs
Recently, during the Snowden saga.. it was published by the Guardian that the NSA is able in matter of seconds to pull the whole network of the people a number or a individual has a contact with.. we live in the world of technology and our technology footprint is everywhere..
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Trying to say it another way.
A. The EVRD alerted on 4 places (two inside, two outside of the 5A). The CSI was brought on those 4 spots but reacted only on one where some residue was found. There was no residue on the 3 other places, only impalpable VOCs.
C. The DNA of the residue found by the CSI didn't belong to the missing child.
So in a nutshell (...oops coconuts) the dogs alerts and the CSI results tell us nothing?
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So in a nutshell (...oops coconuts) the dogs alerts and the CSI results tell us nothing?
I think it is more accurate to say there is no CSI samples in 3 cases.
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So in a nutshell (...oops coconuts) the dogs alerts and the CSI results tell us nothing?
They tell a lot !
A few readings would convince you..
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I think it is more accurate to say there is no CSI samples in 3 cases.
Not really, because another kind of body substance could theoretically have been found.
Had they had the STU 100 device, they could have captured the VOCs in the bedroom corner, send that air for analysis and kept a part for future researches.
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Right Vixte, here are your Vicrotian windows, your responses to my comments / other posts are in blue, my responses to your responses in red
Quote from: Redblossom on February 24, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
If you are going to post can you make sure you get your facts right and/or give links
- Eddie did not alert to three places in the apartment behind the sofa which is the area where you post about, vis a vis dna found, he made one alert in the general area and no ones knows if he was alerting to cadaver scent or blood
Are you sure? Eddie did actually alert behind the sofa
Quote
In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.
Yea, of course I know he alerted behnd the sofa! maybe I didnt make it clear. He alerted once not three times for three different spots! He doesnt alert to specific spots! Thats Keela's job
Quote from: Redblossom on February 24, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
- Eddie did not alert to dna profiles
True. But the places where Eddie alerted were sent to the lab to investigate why Eddie alerted there.. This was the purpose of Eddie.. to pinpoint the places which the labs later investigate.
No, places are not sent to labs, physical evidence is, that is the job of Keela to find, ie blood, in the absence of remains where Eddie alerts to remnant scent
Quote from: Redblossom on February 24, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
- There were no three almost full dna profiles
Yes there were
Quote
On the samples three DNA profiles were identified:
- A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card(286C/2007-CRL(12)).
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
Thats not exactly three nearly full dna proffiles
Quote
- There was a mixed sample from more than one person where confirmed markers matched Madeleines
Markers never matched Madeleine. Can you point the place in the files where it is confirmed that the markers matched Madeleine?
Well, you tell me, from three extracts from the FSS report one minute is says confirmed the next unconfirmed
An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.
A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor
286A/2007-CRL 3A& B Swabs collected from the floor of the apartment
An incomplete and weak DNA result comprising only some unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from the cellular material present in the dry swab (3A). The attempt to obtain a result from any cellular material that may have been in the same area and present in the wet swab (3B) was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained. These samples were submitted for LCN tests.
An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.
Quote
- Please stop saying Eddie alerts to living humans
Eddie does do that.. because Eddie also alerts to dried blood from live humans
No, it doesnt mean that, it means he can alert to dried blood from somene who has not died, it is not the same to say he reacts to living human beings! That use of language can muddy the waters and Im sure you wouldnt want to do that
Quote
- Material was collected around the areas Keela alerted to, she alerts to blood, thats the only reason swabs were taken, which may have included remnant dna from non bleeders
That is not in the files, it is your own opinion.
A fairly informed one nonetheless, blood and other dna material do get mixed you know
Quote
ETA
BTW it s not a myth that Madeleines dna profile was sent from the UK to Portugal, it is a fact! Her profile was extracted from a pillowcase retrieved from home and sent around 22/05/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm
Thank you.. but where does it say in that link that Madeleine's DNA was obtained from the UK?
I do remember newspapers reports about Gerry going to UK for this reason but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the files.
Pages 273to 381
saliva sample taken from pillowcase (obviously from the uk) and delvered to FSS May 2007
[quote author=VIXTE link=topic=2123.msg132132#msg132132 date=1393283710]
And which is it?
Out of 4 times Eddie alerted 3 times to a human blood - or whatever.. but human
4th time is inconclusive.
So you are arguing that this 4th time is the cadaver scent?
Why would it be? Why cannot it be human 'scent' as previous 3 times ( Gerry plus 2 officers)
How much probability that would be mathematically?
[/quote]
Again you are confused. Eddie alerted once in the general area behnd the sofa, not three times for three specific areas. And you cant assert it was human blood when the handler himself doesnt offer that possibility. (But maybe he forgot to say!)
Hope thats all sorted now, as I wont be arguing over any of this with you anymore. God that was hard work
@)(++(*
Cheers.
.....
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I'm amazed, Redblossom, by your patience.
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I'm amazed, Redblossom, by your patience.
I wont be trying that again!
8)-)))
@)(++(*
At some point it becomes a bit pointless but some misunderstandings have to be addressed sometimes
And I suggest Vixte doesnt quote all that and insert answers LOL
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I wont be trying that again!
8)-)))
@)(++(*
At some point it becomes a bit pointless but some misunderstandings have to be addressed sometimes
And I suggest Vixte doesnt quote all that and insert answers LOL
Whats the point in replying to this post...what are you trying to prove...there is no match to Maddie..thats it
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It would be interesting to see.
Probabilities around the dogs.
Probabilities around changing statements.
Probabilities around timelines.
Probabilities around sleeping twins.
Etc. etc.
The combined probabilities of them all being explained innocently is fairly small statistically speaking.
Absolutely not...just that if you throw enough mud...some will stick and the more that's thrown...the more that will stick
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Whats the point in replying to this post...what are you trying to prove...there is no match to Maddie..thats it
I was tryng to explain various thngs to Vixte, which he/she is confused about/was enquiring about,not tryng to prove anythng at all, and of course, you dont have to reply to every post on this board, so dont if you dont feel like it, lol, cheers
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I was tryng to explain various thngs to Vixte, which he/she is confused about/was enquiring about,not tryng to prove anythng at all, and of course, you dont have to reply to every post on this board, so dont if you dont feel like it, lol, cheers
Im pointing out that that there was no match to Maddie
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It would be interesting to see.
Probabilities around the dogs.
Probabilities around changing statements.
Probabilities around timelines.
Probabilities around sleeping twins.
Etc. etc.
The combined probabilities of them all being explained innocently is fairly small statistically speaking.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
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Right Vixte, here are your Vicrotian windows, your responses to my comments / other posts are in blue, my responses to your responses in red
Quote from: Redblossom on February 24, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
If you are going to post can you make sure you get your facts right and/or give links
- Eddie did not alert to three places in the apartment behind the sofa which is the area where you post about, vis a vis dna found, he made one alert in the general area and no ones knows if he was alerting to cadaver scent or blood
Are you sure? Eddie did actually alert behind the sofa
Quote
In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.
Yea, of course I know he alerted behnd the sofa! maybe I didnt make it clear. He alerted once not three times for three different spots! He doesnt alert to specific spots! Thats Keela's job
Quote from: Redblossom on February 24, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
- Eddie did not alert to dna profiles
True. But the places where Eddie alerted were sent to the lab to investigate why Eddie alerted there.. This was the purpose of Eddie.. to pinpoint the places which the labs later investigate.
No, places are not sent to labs, physical evidence is, that is the job of Keela to find, ie blood, in the absence of remains where Eddie alerts to remnant scent
Not worth of comment
Quote from: Redblossom on February 24, 2014, 09:13:02 PM
- There were no three almost full dna profiles
Yes there were
Quote
On the samples three DNA profiles were identified:
- A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card(286C/2007-CRL(12)).
- 286A/2007-CRL 5A & B Swabs collected from the wall of the apartment ... In my opinion, Fernando Viegas could have contributed DNA to this result.
- 286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2...In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques.
Thats not exactly three nearly full dna proffiles
Not worth of comment because these people were identified and Madeleine was never identified..
- There was a mixed sample from more than one person where confirmed markers matched Madeleines
Markers never matched Madeleine. Can you point the place in the files where it is confirmed that the markers matched Madeleine?
Well, you tell me, from three extracts from the FSS report one minute is says confirmed the next unconfirmed
An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.
A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor
286A/2007-CRL 3A& B Swabs collected from the floor of the apartment
An incomplete and weak DNA result comprising only some unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from the cellular material present in the dry swab (3A). The attempt to obtain a result from any cellular material that may have been in the same area and present in the wet swab (3B) was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained. These samples were submitted for LCN tests.
An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.
The emphasis here is on 'from more than one person' ..It partly matched Madeleine but it can also partly match other different people
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- Please stop saying Eddie alerts to living humans
Eddie does do that.. because Eddie also alerts to dried blood from live humans
No, it doesnt mean that, it means he can alert to dried blood from somene who has not died, it is not the same to say he reacts to living human beings! That use of language can muddy the waters and Im sure you wouldnt want to do that[/colour]
In my world people who are not dead are alive
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- Material was collected around the areas Keela alerted to, she alerts to blood, thats the only reason swabs were taken, which may have included remnant dna from non bleeders
That is not in the files, it is your own opinion.
A fairly informed one nonetheless, blood and other dna material do get mixed you know
Again, your own opinion, not a fact from files or an opinion from an expert
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ETA
BTW it s not a myth that Madeleines dna profile was sent from the UK to Portugal, it is a fact! Her profile was extracted from a pillowcase retrieved from home and sent around 22/05/07
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELEINES_DNA.htm
Thank you.. but where does it say in that link that Madeleine's DNA was obtained from the UK?
I do remember newspapers reports about Gerry going to UK for this reason but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the files.
Pages 273to 381
saliva sample taken from pillowcase (obviously from the uk) and delvered to FSS May 2007
Sorry not seen anywhere that it was from the UK
[quote author=VIXTE link=topic=2123.msg132132#msg132132 date=1393283710]
And which is it?
Out of 4 times Eddie alerted 3 times to a human blood - or whatever.. but human
4th time is inconclusive.
So you are arguing that this 4th time is the cadaver scent?
Why would it be? Why cannot it be human 'scent' as previous 3 times ( Gerry plus 2 officers)
How much probability that would be mathematically?
Again you are confused. Eddie alerted once in the general area behnd the sofa, not three times for three specific areas. And you cant assert it was human blood when the handler himself doesnt offer that possibility. (But maybe he forgot to say!)
Hope thats all sorted now, as I wont be arguing over any of this with you anymore. God that was hard work
@)(++(*
Cheers.
Again your own opinion
.....