Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Admin on July 22, 2013, 04:09:35 PM
Title: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Admin on July 22, 2013, 04:09:35 PM
Much has been written and said about the 'arguido' interviews in which both Kate and Gerry McCann were interviewed as official suspects.
On the advice of their lawyer, Pinto de Abreu, Kate McCann declined to answer most of the police questions. Gerry McCann declined the advice and answered the questions.
Earlier, their lawyer also made it clear to them both that if they confessed to having been involved in concealing Madeleine's body following an accidental death and of inventing an abduction they would be given a lesser sentence.
According to Kate McCann, his suggestion was not an option.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2013, 07:45:22 PM
The point is that if there were genuine and real suspects they would have been arrested before now, before they had chance to flee after being alerted by the Yard's statement.
I hear posters saying the McCann's fled from Portugual. So if they had been genuine and real suspects they would have been arrested before they did wouldn't they?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2013, 08:37:12 PM
I hear posters saying the McCann's fled from Portugual. So if they had been genuine and real suspects they would have been arrested before they did wouldn't they?
They weren't arrested as there was an insufficiency of evidence against them relating to any crime. End off!!
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 20, 2013, 10:19:56 PM
Mr McCann's plan to cross the border with his family betrayed a curious perspective of reality. What interest would the McCann presence in Portugal have for the investigation if one refused to answer questions and the other suggested evidence had been planted ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 20, 2013, 11:22:59 PM
Mr McCann's plan to cross the border with his family betrayed a curious perspective of reality. What interest would the McCann presence in Portugal have for the investigation if one refused to answer questions and the other suggested evidence had been planted ?
Both were within their rights Anne
Kate was advised not to answer questions by her lawyer (and probably the British Consul after the Michael Cook and Leonor Cipriano cases). This was permissible
Gerry was lied to Police officers, telling him how they had found evidence in their car, of Madeleines dead body having been transported in it. Gerry knew that was untrue ... and that would have been their catalyst to leave.
Thank God they did.
They realised they were being stitched up for crime they did not commit.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2013, 08:24:16 AM
Kate was advised not to answer questions by her lawyer (and probably the British Consul after the Michael Cook and Leonor Cipriano cases). This was permissible
Gerry was lied to Police officers, telling him how they had found evidence in their car, of Madeleines dead body having been transported in it. Gerry knew that was untrue and that would have been their catalyst to leave.
Thank God they did.
They were being stitched up for crime they did not commit.
km was 'advised' not to answer questions, simply on the grounds she might contradict her husbands account.
Otherwise, why not simply tell the truth ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2013, 09:09:05 AM
They were both advised by their lawyer not to answer the questions Stephen.
Did he answer the questions ?
What did they have to fear by answering the questions and telling the truth ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2013, 09:27:50 AM
Gerry did answer the questions, Kate as you well know decided not to.
Well I would think lawyers would know when to advise their clients not to answer questions Stephen. The lawyer obviously thought it was best that they didn't.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2013, 09:35:41 AM
Gerry did answer the questions, Kate as you well know decided not to.
Well I would think lawyers would know when to advise their clients not to answer questions Stephen. The lawyer obviously thought it was best that they didn't.
I know he answered the questions.
If they were so keen to help the investigation, they would have both have answered the questions fully.
They had no reason not to, and I don't believe they were being 'stitched up'.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2013, 09:58:14 AM
How was Kate being asked whether they were considering having Madeleine adopted supposed to help solve the mystery of what happened to her?
Why refer to just one question ?
Why not list ALL the questions ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: south of the river on August 21, 2013, 10:10:06 AM
Kate had already been interviewed for hours by the PJ and answered loads of these questions -
When the questions became increasingly loaded and it was obvious that they were designed to force some sort of confession as well as the PJ muddying the water by lying about evidence found then her lawyer quite rightly stepped in said enough - they were well aware the way things were headed, It was their job to protect their client an
she was vulnerable , her daughter was missing , the atmosphere with press hounding , people booing was becoming hostile .
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2013, 10:18:29 AM
Kate had already been interviewed for hours by the PJ and answered loads of these questions -
When the questions became increasingly loaded and it was obvious that they were designed to force some sort of confession as well as the PJ muddying the water by lying about evidence found then her lawyer quite rightly stepped in said enough - they were well aware the way things were headed, It was their job to protect their client an
she was vulnerable , her daughter was missing , the atmosphere with press hounding , people booing was becoming hostile .
Very good point, and one frequently overlooked.
If we had the full list of questions Kate was asked before she was officially declared arguido, we might well find she (sic) "failed" to answer far fewer questions than widely supposed.
And I would vehemently dispute that the word "failed" is the best one in context ...
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 21, 2013, 10:47:14 AM
I think you are quite correct in this, Stephen. It is evident that the PJ, or at least sme members of the PJ, did believe that the McCanns had a case to answer. And this is not unusual. Hence the investigations, the tests etc. But the forensic tests failed to provide evidence. And therefore that line of enquiry failed.
What is unusual is that the McCanns then remained arguidos for so long, )and indeed had Amaral delayed a few days he would not havebeen been able to constitute them as arguidos anyway) and that he went on to write a book about it.
If I've understood the situation correctly, there was an extension due to the rogs.
On the arguido interviews, the McCanns had already announced that they were going back to the UK (they had already prolonged the rental of the villa, presumably due to impending questioning). http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_2954.jpg
The fact that the interviews took place a week before the changes in the law was ultimately unfortunate.
What isn't clear is whether the PJ genuinely believed that they had strong evidence (and were worried that if they left as witnesses, it might have been more difficult to get them to come back to be made arguidos), or if they were aware that there was nothing aside from the uncorroborated dog alerts and decided it was theire last chance to try to bluff a confession out of them.
A few things that I haven't understood:
- whether the lawyer was told about the DNA "results" (or whether he'd just been shown the videos). If he had been told, did he ask to see them? If not, why not?
- did the lawyer point out the implications of the changes in the law to the McCanns? I haven't read anything to that effect. Wouldn't it have been wise to get them to stay that extra week?
Gerry did answer the questions, Kate as you well know decided not to.
Well I would think lawyers would know when to advise their clients not to answer questions Stephen. The lawyer obviously thought it was best that they didn't.
That in itself raises an interesting point. The McCann lawyer didn't know whether they were guilty or innocent so was he counselling on the basis of the former ie one size fits all??
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Mr Moderator on August 21, 2013, 03:59:31 PM
That in itself raises an interesting point. The McCann lawyer didn't know whether they were guilty or innocent so was he counselling on the basis of the former ie one size fits all??
In cases of police entrapment best to say nothing.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 21, 2013, 04:05:34 PM
In cases of police entrapment best to say nothing.
As she was advised Mr Moderator, she took that advice, from a professional Portuguese lawyer, as was her rights. I'm sure Pinto de Abreu, knew full well, what was going on.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2013, 04:31:37 PM
As she was advised Mr Moderator, she took that advice, from a professional Portuguese lawyer, as was her rights. I'm sure Pinto de Abreu, knew full well, what was going on.
Didn't Pinto de Abreu advise Kate to take the 'deal' she was offered, allegedly, by the PJ ? She didn't find it hard to ignore her lawyers advice then, did she ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
Didn't Pinto de Abreu advise Kate to take the 'deal' she was offered, allegedly, by the PJ ? She didn't find it hard to ignore her lawyers advice then, did she ?
Kate asked him what he would do in her situation and he said he would take the deal.
Kate refused to admit to something she hadn't done, he advised her not to answer the questions.
So what does that tell you?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2013, 04:40:22 PM
As she was advised Mr Moderator, she took that advice, from a professional Portuguese lawyer, as was her rights. I'm sure Pinto de Abreu, knew full well, what was going on.
Did he ? My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: DCI on August 21, 2013, 06:15:36 PM
Did he ? My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.
Cleverly picked out, Anne.
BUT
It was actually quite different to how you posted it.
Then came the best bit. Carlos announced what the police had proposed. If we, or rather I, admitted that Madeleine had died in an accident in the apartment, and confessed to having hidden and disposed of her body, the sentence I’d receive would be much more lenient: only two years, he said, as opposed to what I’d be looking at if I ended up being charged with homicide. Pardon? I really wasn’t sure if I could possibly have heard him correctly. My incredulity turned to rage. How dare they suggest I lie? How dare they expect me to live with such a charge against my name? And even more importantly, did they really expect me to confess to a crime they had made up, to falsely claim to the whole world that my daughter was dead, when the result would be that the whole world stopped looking for her? This police tactic might have worked successfully in the past but it certainly wasn’t going to work with me. Over my dead body. ‘You need to think about it,’ Carlos insisted. ‘It would only be one of you. Gerry could go back to work.’ I was speechless. The incentive to accept this ‘offer’ seemed to be that if we didn’t agree to it, the authorities could or would go after us for murder, and if we were found guilty, we might both receive life sentences. Was this what it came down to? Confess to this lesser charge or risk something much worse? Gerry was distraught now. He was on his knees, sobbing, his head hung low. ‘We’re finished. Our life is over,’ he kept saying over and over again. The realization that we were at the mercy of an incomprehensible criminal justice system had hit him hard. It was excruciating to see him like this. I love him so much and he is usually so strong. I was very conscious that my response was different. Maybe I should have been on my knees, too. Why wasn’t I crying? Was my behaviour making me look cold or guilty? Again, my only explanation is that it was beyond comprehension. I might as well have been a character in a soap opera. Any time now the director would call ‘Cut!’ and this scene would be over. Even today, I struggle to believe it actually took place.
There was a phrase Carlos must have used about twenty times: ‘This is the point of no return.’ I could feel myself shaking. He was a man with three daughters of his own. ‘Do you want me to lie? What would you do, Carlos? If one of your daughters was missing, and this happened to you, what would you do? Would you confess to a crime you hadn’t committed, knowing full well it would mean everyone would stop searching for her?’ ‘I’d consider it, yes.’
Heaven help us. My confidence in Carlos was evaporating almost as quickly as my faith in Portuguese justice. I couldn’t tell if he believed us, which, given that his job was to defend us, was a major worry, to put it mildly. Even if he did, I was no longer sure he had the backbone to stand up for us.
It was one thing to make us aware of the PJ’s proposal, and perhaps Carlos was duty bound to do that; it was quite another, however, to suggest we accept it. I was horrified, and told him so in no uncertain terms. My anger and ferocious maternal instinct began to permeate Gerry’s despair. He was regaining his composure, his powers of reason and his fighting spirit. ‘They’ve got nothing!’ he fired at Carlos. He began pointing out the many flaws in the PJ’s ‘evidence’ and the complete absence of any logic. ‘This should be your job, not ours!’ he said. He asked Carlos whether he felt he was up to the job. Carlos thought so. Did he need assistance? Not at the moment, but he would if the case came to trial. Trisha and Eileen, disturbed by the noise, appeared from their room. Keeping a lid on my anger for long enough to enable me to communicate clearly, I brought them up to speed. Within seconds there were three raging lionesses pacing the villa. Recognizing the need to switch into crisis-management mode, we calmed each other down. Gerry and I made it very clear to Trisha and Eileen that if we didn’t return from the police station the next day, they should take the children out of the country as soon as possible. It must have been close to 4am when Carlos and Sofia left, saying they would see me at the police station later that morning. On her way out, Sofia came over and gave me a hug. She told me she believed in us, that she was ‘with’ us, and tried to allay my concerns about Carlos. I should trust him, she said. He was ‘very good’. It was a relief to know that somebody in Portugal was on our side.
Gerry and I just looked at each other, not knowing quite what to do or what was to become of us. We’d experienced many periods of despair since our beloved daughter had been taken away, but this one would take some beating. Our lives, our family, our whole future hung in the balance. We couldn’t just go to bed. We had to do something. Despite the time, Gerry rang Bob Small and, in a voice laced with panic, explained what was going on. Bob was shocked. He wasn’t aware of any forensic results, he told us, and certainly none suggesting what had just been shared with us. He tried his best to reassure Gerry. ‘Just tell them the truth. It’ll be OK,’ he insisted. Perhaps he was trying to convince himself. It was almost 5am when we finally got to bed. Extra prayers tonight.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 21, 2013, 08:19:29 PM
What did you kindly intend to demonstrate, DCI ? Mrs McCann seems to have understood her lawyer doubted whether they were or not involved and this doubt was a problem. The lawyer's job isn't to believe or not what the client says, but to defend the position the client has chosen, after advising of the risks.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 21, 2013, 10:05:17 PM
Why did you pick that tiny bit out of a long explanation and present it out of context, Anne?
Twisting words again?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 21, 2013, 10:08:08 PM
So Kate refused take his qualified advice, Thank you Lace.
If you had done nothing criminally wrong would you take a deal that meant you went to jail for, was it ?, 2 years. Abandon your children for 2 years? Just so that Amaral, a proven liar in the Courts, could get a score ?
..... Another one "solved" .... and a lucrative book in the bag
JEEZ !
Just shows what corruption goes on in the PJ, that a Lawyer even suggested she took it, as the lesser of two evils.
He knew what happens.
Take 2 years in jail .....or, go thru probable torture, a "fixed" trial, and then languish in jail for 16 years.
An innocent woman agreeing to either of those scenarios ? .....Think about it Faith
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 21, 2013, 11:57:57 PM
Why don't you swallow that or extract the substance of Mrs McCann's prose ?
Anne - I am not quite sure what what your agenda is, but it is self evident that quoting extracts out of context, (as you did here) only works when dealing with those who do not have access to the original, full, work.
Anne - I am not quite sure what what your agenda is, but it is self evident that quoting extracts out of context, (as you did here) only works when dealing with those who do not have access to the original, full, work.
Exactly Jean-Pierre, thats why I posted what was written, before the selected quote, Anne chose! Makes a hell of a difference to the real meaning, doesn't it?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 22, 2013, 12:47:51 PM
It does, rather. 8(0(*
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 22, 2013, 01:01:14 PM
Makes a hell of a difference to the real meaning, doesn't it?
I then reckon you agree with this : Mrs McCann seems to have understood her lawyer doubted whether they were or not involved and this doubt was a problem. The lawyer's job isn't to believe or not what the client says, but to defend the position the client has chosen, after advising of the risks.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 22, 2013, 01:23:07 PM
The lawyer is first and foremost an officer of the court.
The lawyers job, in an investigative process, is to advise his client. Of course, if the client admist guilt then the lawyer is obliged to advise a guilty plea, with mitigation.
But here it is rather different. THe PJ were under an obligation to set out the evidence they had against the McCanns. (one of the features of the investigative process). *
The problem is that PJ lied about that evidence, suggesting that they had definitive forensic evidence which could lead to charge of murder. It seems led to their lawyer suggesting accepting a lower tariff (2 years) for a confession of accidental death, to avoid the risk of a much more serious charge.
Fortunately, the McCanns were both sufficiently self assured to ignore that advice.
If this is correct, then some parts of the PJ, and Amaral in particular, should hang their heads in shame. __________
* under the adversarial process (eg UK law) it is permissable for the authorities to use some deception in the conduct of the case, because there are checks and balances in place, and legal representation to protect the suspect. Under the invesitagive process (eg Portugal, France), the idea is that both sides (police and suspect) work together to discover the truth under the direction of the court. This provides the suspect with less direct protection, but also places additional responsibilities on the police to be more candid about the evidence they have discovered.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: DCI on August 22, 2013, 04:45:26 PM
If I'm not mistaken, under the new legislation that would have come into effect a week later, the arguidos would have had the right to know the evidence for the "reasoned suspicions" against them. I'll try to double-check that.
Does this help, Carana?
II. FACTS FOUND DURING THE VISIT AND ACTION PROPOSED
8.Since the CPT’s last visit to Portugal in 2003, significant changes have been made to the legal framework governing the work of law enforcement agencies. Some of the new legislation is not of direct relevance in the context of the CPT’s mandate[3]. However, the changes to the CCP, which entered into force on 15 September 2007, have a profound impact on the use of detention by law enforcement officials. For instance, amendments to Article 202[4] have limited the offences for which a person may be detained outside ‘flagrante delito’[
II. FACTS FOUND DURING THE VISIT AND ACTION PROPOSED
8.Since the CPT’s last visit to Portugal in 2003, significant changes have been made to the legal framework governing the work of law enforcement agencies. Some of the new legislation is not of direct relevance in the context of the CPT’s mandate[3]. However, the changes to the CCP, which entered into force on 15 September 2007, have a profound impact on the use of detention by law enforcement officials. For instance, amendments to Article 202[4] have limited the offences for which a person may be detained outside ‘flagrante delito’[
Thanks, but that's not the particular point that I want to double-check... I guess I'll have to wade through the 2007 Penal Code Process yet again.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 22, 2013, 08:57:00 PM
I dont really think so. I think it was just Amaral and Co.
It is interesting to note what has happened to Amaral and Friends - the contrast with their "targets" is marked.
And by the by - whatever happened to "secrecy of Justice". I have no doubt one of the local posters will be able to explain this.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 23, 2013, 11:46:56 AM
DCI
I think I've finally found what I was looking for re this arguido business.
(There are other subsections to the Articles, but I've just quoted the ones that are relevant to the point in question.)
Article 58 - a key change in 2007 was adding "...suspeita fundada..." (founded suspicion).
Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be: - in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person. - in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.
Article 61 - the old point 1.c moved down to 1.d. Again, my paraphrasing: The new 1.c concerns the right to be informed of the imputed facts before making a "declaration" to any entity.
(2000) Artigo 58.º (Constituição de arguido) 1 - Sem prejuízo do disposto no artigo anterior, é obrigatória a constituição de arguido logo que: a) Correndo inquérito contra pessoa determinada, esta prestar declarações perante qualquer autoridade judiciária ou órgão de polícia criminal; b) Tenha de ser aplicada a qualquer pessoa uma medida de coacção ou de garantia patrimonial; c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.º a 261.º; ou d) For levantado auto de notícia que dê uma pessoa como agente de um crime e aquele lhe for comunicado.
(2007 - in force as of 15 September) Artigo 58.o Constituição de arguido 1 — Sem prejuízo do disposto no artigo anterior, é obrigatória a constituição de arguido logo que: a) Correndo inquérito contra pessoa determinada em relação à qual haja suspeita fundada da prática de crime, esta prestar declarações perante qualquer autoridade judiciária ou órgão de polícia criminal; b) Tenha de ser aplicada a qualquer pessoa uma medida de coacção ou de garantia patrimonial; c) Um suspeito for detido, nos termos e para os efeitos previstos nos artigos 254.o a 261.o; ou d) For levantado auto de notícia que dê uma pessoa como agente de um crime e aquele lhe for comunicado, salvo se a notícia for manifestamente infundada.
---
(2000) Artigo 61.º (Direitos e deveres processuais)
1 - O arguido goza, em especial, em qualquer fase do processo e, salvas as excepções da lei, dos direitos de: a) Estar presente aos actos processuais que directamente lhe disserem respeito; b) Ser ouvido pelo tribunal ou pelo juiz de instrução sempre que eles devam tomar qualquer decisão que pessoalmente o afecte; c) Não responder a perguntas feitas, por qualquer entidade, sobre os factos que lhe forem imputados e sobre o conteúdo das declarações que acerca deles prestar; d) Escolher defensor ou solicitar ao tribunal que lhe nomeie um; e) Ser assistido por defensor em todos os actos processuais em que participar e, quando detido, comunicar, mesmo em privado, com ele; f) Intervir no inquérito e na instrução, oferecendo provas e requerendo as diligências que se lhe afigurarem necessárias; g) Ser informado, pela autoridade judiciária ou pelo órgão de polícia criminal perante os quais seja obrigado a comparecer, dos direitos que lhe assistem; h) Recorrer, nos termos da lei, das decisões que lhe forem desfavoráveis.
Artigo 61.o Direitos e deveres processuais 1 — O arguido goza, em especial, em qualquer fase do processo e salvas as excepções da lei, dos direitos de: a) Estar presente aos actos processuais que directamente lhe disserem respeito; b) Ser ouvido pelo tribunal ou pelo juiz de instrução sempre que eles devam tomar qualquer decisão que pessoalmente o afecte; c) Ser informado dos factos que lhe são imputados antes de prestar declarações perante qualquer entidade; d) Não responder a perguntas feitas, por qualquer entidade, sobre os factos que lhe forem imputados e sobre o conteúdo das declarações que acerca deles prestar; e) Constituir advogado ou solicitar a nomeação de um defensor; f) Ser assistido por defensor em todos os actos processuais em que participar e, quando detido, comunicar, mesmo em privado, com ele; g) Intervir no inquérito e na instrução, oferecendo provas e requerendo as diligências que se lhe afigurarem necessárias; h) Ser informado, pela autoridade judiciária ou pelo órgão de polícia criminal perante os quais seja obrigado a comparecer, dos direitos que lhe assistem; i) Recorrer, nos termos da lei, das decisões que lhe forem desfavoráveis. (2007)
2000 Penal Process Code: http://paulosantos-adv.planetaclix.pt/CPP.htm 2007: I can't find a valid online link. I'd downloaded it as a pdf.
ETA: the PJ might have had a bit of a problem if they'd interviewed them a week later as they would have been entitled to read the DNA "evidence". Ooops.
ETA2: reading it all again, I take back my first ETA just above, as it doesn't actually state that they would be entitled to read the "imputed facts", just to be informed of them.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 23, 2013, 12:26:31 PM
Wow, Carana 8@??)(
Quote
Without attempting a literal translation (i.e. my paraphrasing), I understand the difference to be: - in the old one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person. - in the new one: one could be made arguido when the investigation focused on a specific person when there was a well-founded suspicion of that person having committed a crime.
So can we be clear, is this the new law that took place a few days after Kate and Gerry were made Arguidos?
Cos if it was ... that shouts volumes .
Seems, Amaral did not have a well founded suspicion that either Kate or Gerry had committed a crime.
So in an alll out effort, before the law changed and in order to be able to nail them, he rushed The Arguido Status forward?
He was determined to nail them, seems.
I wonder why? There has to be a reason. Things dont just happen
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Admin on August 23, 2013, 05:10:57 PM
A new thread. The 'arguido' interviews continued.
* Was Kate McCann right to refuse to answer police questions at the police interview?
* Was their lawyer helpful when he suggested that they might wish to consider confessing?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2013, 05:22:39 PM
* Was Kate McCann right to refuse to answer police questions at the police interview?
* Was their lawyer helpful when he suggested that they might wish to consider confessing?
Answers:
Yes
And no.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 05:35:03 PM
As Angelo said, the use of the right not to answer was by default. This position can save time to reflect, but sooner or later reality has to be faced. The lawyer's advise shows he wasn't sure the McCanns were not involved, otherwise he would have advised the truth, as did Bob Smart. Smartly I must say.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2013, 05:49:35 PM
As Angelo said, the use of the right not to answer was by default. This position can save time to reflect, but sooner or later reality has to be faced. The lawyer's advise shows he wasn't sure the McCanns were not involved, otherwise he would have advised the truth, as did Bob Smart. Smartly I must say.
Those questions were based on the premise that Madeleine had been 'murdered'.
The PJ called the McCanns' bluff by threatening that unless Kate, at least, confessed to finding and concealing a body, both Kate and Gerry would be charged with murder.
The McCanns (as we know) confessed to nothing and were charged with nothing.
That is because the PJ had nothing (against the McCanns) ...
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 06:02:33 PM
This isn't true, Ferryman, and you know that. You're speaking like Ms McCann, who since that disastrous claim, stopped being heard of. The lawyer denied it (see the Guardian, very pro McCann), bargains are simply not possible under Romano Germanic legal system.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2013, 06:05:05 PM
This isn't true, Ferryman, and you know that. You're speaking like Ms McCann, who since that disastrous claim, stopped being heard of. The lawyer denied it (see the Guardian, very pro McCann), bargains are simply not possible under Romano Germanic legal system.
It is true, written in the files and I have produced the relevant quote.
Here it is again:
Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signalling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.
It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code. So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:
1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal. 2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.
We suggest that this inspection is entrusted to the PJ and ask the Public Prosecutor for a 20 day mandate. Thus, we consider that there are indications that consolidate strong suspicions according to which, there are elements of evidence of a crime, inside the vehicle used by the McCann's and, moreover, likely to reveal important details of fundamental importance for the investigation.
Villa rue des Fleurs.
4th section down, marked by the blue band:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 07:07:00 PM
Ferryman, are you kidding ? What has this report to do with the bargain imagined by Ms McCann ? Concerning the report you sent the link of, why is it translated from French and where is the original ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2013, 07:13:58 PM
Ferryman, are you kidding ? What has this report to do with the bargain imagined by Ms McCann ? Concerning the report you sent the link of, why is it translated from French and where is the original ?
The McCanns were threatened that unless one (Kate) confessed to finding and concealing a body, both would be charged with murder.
The 'deal' was that if Kate confessed, Gerry would get off scott free and Kate would serve only a couple of years ...
My guess is that if they had fallen for the 'sucker punch', both would have been charged with murder.
That is only a guess, though ...
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 23, 2013, 07:30:15 PM
Ferryman, that story supposed to make people cry isn't in the files.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2013, 07:34:40 PM
French isn't Anna Esse's mother language. Where is the Portuguese original and who did translate it in French and what for ?
Where is the Portuguese original?
That is a darned good question.
The Portuguese original doesn't appear to accompany the translation that appears on line.
But presumably you have read it, so where did you read it?
And why doesn't the Portuguese original appear on line?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 24, 2013, 09:51:34 AM
It probably appeared on the CDs released by the PJ in 2008, but has not made its way onto the internet yet.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2013, 09:56:45 AM
And whilst we're at it, Mark Harrison also considered, solely, that Madeleine had been murdered.
His terms of reference:
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains. 2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension. 3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching. 4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided. 5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection. 6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann. 7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
Elsewhere he states that he considered solely the possibility that Madeleine had been murdered and offered to consider other possibilities or scenarios on request ...
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 10:30:19 AM
Though not impossible, it's difficult to consider a victim of abduction, if found dead, wasn't murdered. It's very strange that the translation by Anna Esse appears with a picture of CC crossed by the name of a Belgian site.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 10:41:43 AM
Though not impossible, it's difficult to consider a victim of abduction, if found dead, wasn't murdered. It's very strange that the translation by Anna Esse appears with a picture of CC crossed by the name of a Belgian site.
I noticed that too.
I wonder why?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 10:45:13 AM
It is so "in your face" that it is almost as though it is planted there.
To take the eye off the actual people behind the real abductor ?
Yet another Red Herring?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2013, 10:52:10 AM
Though not impossible, it's difficult to consider a victim of abduction, if found dead, wasn't murdered. It's very strange that the translation by Anna Esse appears with a picture of CC crossed by the name of a Belgian site.
Where have you seen the Portuguese original of what appears on line and what, you say is inaccurately translated by Anna Esse?
Oh, and another question, what does article Q1310 of the penal code say?
If that defines what is 'murder' by Portuguese law, that would clinch it that Anna Esse translated accurately, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2013, 11:29:36 AM
This may be wikipedia, but it's a well-referenced article, so far as I can gauge.
It seems to say Portuguese law deals with 'murder' in article 131 rather than 1310?
This page is void, Ferryman ! Here is a page on comparative juridical notions. http://jurislingue.gddc.pt/fora/resultado_pesquisa_termos.asp?Termo_Portugues=Homic%EDdio&Submit=OK
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 11:41:59 AM
I'm assuming you've read the Portuguese original, because you are saying the English is mistranslated?
How would you know if you haven't read the Portuguese original?
Come on, Ferryman, I never said that ! I wondered which word was translated "murdered". Even Anna Esse can't know since she translated from French. Why the original has been translated in French and by whom is the mystery (as the fact the original vanished).
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2013, 11:53:08 AM
Come on, Ferryman, I never said that ! I wondered which word was translated "murdered". Even Anna Esse can't know since she translated from French. Why the original has been translated in French and by whom is the mystery (as the fact the original vanished).
Why do you question Anna Esse's translation?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 24, 2013, 11:57:26 AM
I believe one Duarte Levy had a hand in translating and publishing material related to the McCann case into french. So that may be an explanation.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 12:12:15 PM
Don't you think it is normal to question the translation in this kind of text ? Translating the files was an enormous and often fastidious work. There was a lot of pressure because everybody was curious of what was in the files. If you read well you'll see that frequently translations are reviewed by the translator him/herself. Sometimes I wonder whether replying to your posts isn't a waste of time, Ferryman : I've a feeling you don't read..
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2013, 12:19:39 PM
Don't you think it is normal to question the translation in this kind of text ? Translating the files was an enormous and often fastidious work. There was a lot of pressure because everybody was curious of what was in the files. If you read well you'll see that frequently translations are reviewed by the translator him/herself. Sometimes I wonder whether replying to your posts isn't a waste of time, Ferryman : I've a feeling you don't read..
My question is: what is your basis for questioning it?
Are you simply questioning it because you choose to disbelieve it?
Or do you have some, solid reason in logic or fact for supposing it has been inaccurately translated?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 01:14:26 PM
km was 'advised' not to answer questions, simply on the grounds she might contradict her husbands account.
Otherwise, why not simply tell the truth ?
Could you provide a reliable source to substantiate that?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 01:56:15 PM
Interesting.
I think I've got to the bottom of that "translation".
- Ferryman believed he was quoting from the files as - indeed - it appears in the "PJ" folder. However, it seems to be a summarised translation of various dog-related documents.
- The closest I can find in Portuguese is the request from João Carlos to extend the dog searches and to tap the McCanns.
08 Processo 8 Pages 2068 to 2070 08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2068 08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2069 08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2070
Processo pages 2068 and 2069
A note for the case file dated 1 August 2007 with respect to the dog search reports from 31 July and 1 August requesting the authorisation necessary to search the then-residence of the McCann family and the hire vehicle.
Faced with the new matters brought to the file through the dog search reports above, [those searches being] based on Mark Harrison's report already on file, and which [search results] support that Madeleine McCann may have died inside apartment 5A, Ocean Club, Luz, Lagos, where she was on holiday with her parents and two siblings.
The above reports state that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour and human blood inside the apartment, it already having been established that no death has occurred there previously.
In point a) [apartment 5A] of the report we can infer the locations of cadaver odour as well as the presence of traces of human blood. Also at point f) we see that cadaver odour was detected in the garden immediately adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was signalled in the other places.
In order to allow us to thoroughly examine this situation, which could have its conclusion through new evidence, it is requested for a voice record, legally sanctioned, specifically of two locations: 1 - Rua das Flores, no 27, Vivenda Vista do Mar, Luz Park, Luz, Lagos (the present residence of the McCann family in Luz) 2 - Hired vehicle used by the McCanns, the "Renault Scenic", number plate 59-DA-27.
Further, and of no small importance, it is also requested that a magistrate issue search warrants for [the above two locations] to enable us to recover new items/clues.
I ask that you consider the above and decide at your convenience.
Portimao, 1 August 2007 Inspector Joao Carlos http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm#p8p2068to2070
However, that statement about "murder" doesn't appear in his memo.
The "murder" statement seems to refer to Article 131° of the Penal Code. From the 2007 version, the introductory Article covering that section, with an over-arching definition is: TÍTULO I Dos crimes contra as pessoas CAPÍTULO I Dos crimes contra a vida Artigo 131.o Homicídio Quem matar outra pessoa é punido com pena de prisão de 8 a 16 anos.
Homicide: "whomsoever kills another person... "
Subsequent articles define and set out legal sanctions for various categories of homicide, e.g. Artigo 132.o Homicídio qualificado, Artigo 133.o Homicídio privilegiado, Artigo 134.o Homicídio a pedido da vítima, etc. It covers everything from murder to promotional propaganda of suicide.
AnnaEsse has mistranslated homicide as murder.
It is not an official part of the files. It may have been uploaded before that section of the files had been translated directly into English and was never taken down.
ETA: In view of the context of the memo from João Carlos, and the fact that the translation doesn't include his name, I'm wondering if it was a draft that was translated. Mentioning the Article on homicide would have been understandable in terms of justifying the request (particularly phone tapping), then for some reason it was deemed unnecessary and taken out.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 03:04:34 PM
Yes. A poster found the French translation from which Anna Esse translated and there's no "murder" in it, but "homicide" in relation to the article 131 which defines it generically in terms of sanction (logically as it is part of the Penal Code). The only left mystery is why this translation is in the PJ Files.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 03:42:47 PM
In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped.
Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges".
Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant".
I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court.
I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed.
"Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: DCI on August 24, 2013, 03:49:58 PM
Quote
AnnaEsse has mistranslated homicide as murder.
No Carana, Anna Esse has not mistranslated homicide as murder, but she's added a page to the files, that does not exist, on the DVD's. Note no page number or Processos Vol , on her translation. The pic she used is not from the official files.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 04:33:51 PM
No Carana, Anna Esse has not mistranslated homicide as murder, but she's added a page to the files, that does not exist, on the DVD's. Note no page number or Processos Vol , on her translation. The pic she used is not from the official files.
I'm not sure I'm following you. I agree that that summary / translation isn't part of the files, but AnnaEsse translated it and uploaded it and possibly simply forgot that it's still there. However, in translating it, she translated homicide as murder, which isn't the correct meaning in Article 131.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 05:37:40 PM
In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped.
Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges".
Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant".
I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court.
I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed.
"Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting.
"defendant" could be a good translation for arguido in the inquiry which can follow the investigation because then the defendant has to be an active part in the process.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 05:50:59 PM
"defendant" could be a good translation for arguido in the inquiry which can follow the investigation because then the defendant has to be an active part in the process.
In a criminal trial, a defendant is any person accused (charged) of committing an offence (a crime), an act defined as punishable under criminal law. The other party to a criminal trial is usually a public prosecutor.
(...)
Defendants in civil actions usually make their first court appearance voluntarily in response to a summons. But criminal defendants are often taken into custody by police and brought before a court under an arrest warrant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defendant
The McCanns weren't arrested, weren't held in custody and weren't charged with any crime.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 06:08:51 PM
They didn't request an inquiry. Had they requested and had it been granted, they would have had in it the arguido status. The implications of that status in the inquiry are a bit different, especially concerning the contradictory debate, essential in the process. They could have required all diligences necessary to defend their point of view, which has the virtue, unlike some statements, to have never changed: Madeleine was abducted from bed. A reconstruction would have been a good idea ;)
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 06:27:05 PM
They didn't request an inquiry. Had they requested and had it been granted, they would have had in it the arguido status. The implications of that status in the inquiry are a bit different, especially concerning the contradictory debate, essential in the process. They could have required all diligences necessary to defend their point of view, which has the virtue, unlike some statements, to have never changed: Madeleine was abducted from bed. A reconstruction would have been a good idea ;)
But my point was the translation on the arguido form they had to sign back in September 07. Any instruction debate would have taken place after the case had been shelved (or they had been charged) in any case.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 24, 2013, 06:29:52 PM
Anne, you really do talk some rubbish at times. Arguido is more akin (the closest parallel) to "interviewed under caution" under UK law. It is emphatically not a parallel to "defendant" - which as Carana has pointed out, is quite different.
.... removed comment .....
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 06:46:31 PM
But my point was the translation on the arguido form they had to sign back in September 07. Any instruction debate would have taken place after the case had been shelved (or they had been charged) in any case.
But my point was the translation for arguido in the inquiry, a part of the process that wasn't requested, just because the prerogatives of the arguido in the inquiry are different from his part in the investigation. That's all ! Could you please indicate where you found "arguido" translated "defendant" in the files ? It would certainly be kind and useful to indicate the mistakes that exist in the translations in order to correct them.
In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped. Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges". Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant". I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court. I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed. "Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting. Just taking Gerry's as an example.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 06:58:36 PM
And what would appear to be yet another mistranslation of arguido as "offender" might explain Russell's horrified reaction regarding the reconstruction:
Furthermore, we think it is hard to imagine a productive return to Portugal whilst Kate and Gerry remain arguidos. Secondly, the Prosecutor astonishingly referring to them as 'offenders' in their letter implies they are already considered to be guilty, and will be treated as such by the police and press. Furthermore the leaking of the date even before your email completely contradicts the letter's pretence to secrecy for the re-enactment.
Translating arguido as defendant prior to any arrest or charge was bad enough, but "offender" really takes the biscuit...
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Chinagirl on August 24, 2013, 09:53:48 PM
Yet more examples of why the McCanns and SY didn't rely on the translations of the files by amateurs with a biased point of view .....
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 24, 2013, 10:35:46 PM
But my point was the translation for arguido in the inquiry, a part of the process that wasn't requested, just because the prerogatives of the arguido in the inquiry are different from his part in the investigation. That's all ! Could you please indicate where you found "arguido" translated "defendant" in the files ? It would certainly be kind and useful to indicate the mistakes that exist in the translations in order to correct them.
In checking various translations of the term "factos imputados", I stumbled upon something that I found perplexing until the penny dropped. Depending on the context, I found (unsurprisingly) that "factos imputados" can mean "alleged facts", "the facts complained of"... and "charges". Looking more closely at where the term was used to mean "charges" (clearly in a criminal context), I found that "arguido" had been translated as "defendant". I then realised that the meaning of "arguido" itself depended on context: from "person of interest" to "defendant" as the status remains all the way through to conviction or aquittal if a case is taken to court. I then decided to have a look at the document that the Madeleine arguidos had signed. "Constituição de arguido" was - in my opinion - mistranslated as "Being held as a defendant", which gives a somewhat different impression to an English speaker. I presume that whoever translated it had found the terms used in the context of a trial setting. Just taking Gerry's as an example.
It was on the original PJ arguido form, which was in both languages... so you'll have to contact the PJ about that. I posted the jpg of the form, and you commented on it.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2013, 10:39:15 PM
Yet more examples of why the McCanns and SY didn't rely on the translations of the files by amateurs with a biased point of view .....
If the sceptics translations are so bad it begs the question why didn't supporters ever rectify the situation by doing their own error-free translations ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 10:57:15 PM
If the sceptics translations are so bad it begs the question why didn't supporters ever rectify the situation by doing their own error-free translations ?
Many more sceptics than pros are Portuguese, maybe because they are supporting their PJ and Nationalistic. English is commonly understood and spoken in PT. Whilst few Brits, without PT roots, speak Portuguese. French, German, Spanish maybe, but not PT Portuguese
So translations more likely to be done by sceptics
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2013, 11:03:21 PM
Many more sceptics than pros are Portuguese, maybe because they are supporting their PJ and Nationalistic. English is commonly understood and spoken in PT. Whilst few Brits, without PT roots, speak Portuguese. French, German, Spanish maybe, but not PT Portuguese
So translations more likely to be done by sceptics
Or perhaps their sceptical simply because they think the McCanns are hiding something ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 24, 2013, 11:11:47 PM
Well the question was, why didn't the pros do translations?
And as far as I can see, most Pros are British. Few Brits speak PT.
PT peeps often speak English and are also more likely to be sceptics/ [ censored word ]s
OK ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2013, 11:30:27 PM
Well the question was, why didn't the pros do translations?
And as far as I can see, most Pros are British. Few Brits speak PT.
PT peeps often speak English and are also more likely to be sceptics/ [ censored word ]s
OK ?
Fantastic sadie.
So, according to your good self, most Portuguese people are bi-lingual and therefore certainly cleverer than your average Brit.
No wonder they disbelieve the McCanns.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Chinagirl on August 24, 2013, 11:38:39 PM
So, according to your good self, most Portuguese people are bi-lingual and therefore certainly cleverer than your average Brit.
Bilingualism on its own doesn't equate with "cleverness!"
Sadie made a perfectly valid observation: English is far more widely understood in Portugal than Portuguese is in England. As is the case in most European countries.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2013, 11:49:27 PM
So, according to your good self, most Portuguese people are bi-lingual and therefore certainly cleverer than your average Brit.
Bilingualism on its own doesn't equate with "cleverness!"
Sadie made a perfectly valid observation: English is far more widely understood in Portugal than Portuguese is in England. As is the case in most European countries.
Bilingualism on it's own may not categorically prove a quick intellect but it is certainly a good marker.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 24, 2013, 11:53:38 PM
If the sceptics translations are so bad it begs the question why didn't supporters ever rectify the situation by doing their own error-free translations ?
It surely begs the question ! Pros, as they call themselves, use the work of others for free and moreover attack and contempt that work and those who did it ! How pretty ! The pros though are so many that it wouldn't cost much to each one of them to have the files properly translated. I can't believe they don't do it because of some vulgar money issue, it would be too shameful. So why don't they organize themselves to have proper translations ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2013, 11:56:46 PM
It surely begs the question ! Pros, as they call themselves, use the work of others for free and moreover attack and contempt that work and those who did it ! How pretty ! The pros though are so many that it wouldn't cost much to each one of them to have the files properly translated. I can't believe they don't do it because of some vulgar money issue, it would be too shameful. So why don't they organize themselves to have proper translations ?
An interesting idea Anne. Perhaps they could start a fund.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Chinagirl on August 25, 2013, 12:18:57 AM
Pointless. Scotland Yard is now investigating, having reviewed accurate, unbiased translations of the original files, and moreover, things have moved on since the release of the files.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 01:43:15 AM
An interesting idea Anne. Perhaps they could start a fund.
You know what the hungry fox who couldn't reach the grapes pretended : you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes!
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 04:28:05 AM
Anne is spot on when she states that the 'arguido' status can mean many different things at various points in an investigation. The term can be used to identify an official suspect, a defendant who has been charged with an offence and a convicted person as in the case of Mr Amaral.
In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Chinagirl on August 25, 2013, 07:49:29 AM
In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.
But not since July 2008.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2013, 08:30:16 AM
Anne is spot on when she states that the 'arguido' status can mean many different things at various points in an investigation. The term can be used to identify an official suspect, a defendant who has been charged with an offence and a convicted person as in the case of Mr Amaral.
In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.
Not really Angelo - it needs qualification.
Arugido is a very specific term, having its roots in latin "arguire" - to argue. It gives certain rights - legal representation and the right not to answer questions being two of them. In an inquisitorial system, these are important. (because the process is that the prosecution and the defendant work together to discover the truth).
A person has to be constituted an arguido before any further steps can be taken. A person cannot be charged or brought to trial. They will remain an arguido, but will be the defendant (assuming the PP gives leave to bring the case to trial).
So arguido in itself simply confers rights - it cannot be transalted in itself to mean defendant, offender or any other legal term.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2013, 09:19:58 AM
Bilingualism on it's own may not categorically prove a quick intellect but it is certainly a good marker.
Not at all. It results from a number of factors. Many people around the world have English as a second language, due to the influence of (a) the british empire and british colonisation and exploration of different parts of the world (b) US films and TV (c) literature
In the same way that French is widely spoken in morocco, in the far east etc, and in diplomatic and political circles.
And it is on a need basis - people in tourist areas (such as the coast of Portugal, (where tourism is of such importance to the economy) will tend to be able to speak english and possibly german.
The last factor is utility - in the UK, because so many people round the world do speak English, there is little incentive to develop skills in other tongues. If you take Holland as an example, the dutch often speak several languages because they are a trading nation and very few foreigners speak any dutch. So they have to learn other languages.
It has very little to do with intelligence or other abilities. Although it is very useful, of course.
This brings up the uncomfortable question, of course. If the translations provided by the Portuguese members were in any way wrong or biased - then why? What was the point?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 11:07:36 AM
Anne is spot on when she states that the 'arguido' status can mean many different things at various points in an investigation. The term can be used to identify an official suspect, a defendant who has been charged with an offence and a convicted person as in the case of Mr Amaral.
In the case of the McCanns it can be rightly applied to them as official suspects.
I have never said anything different, in fact I was the one who brought up the subject of the word being translated to convey different meanings of the word according to the context of the stage in the judicial process in the first place. I have no problem with that, providing the word chosen conveys the meaning as closely as possible in the context.
What I was trying to point out is that the translation of "constituição de arguido" as "held as defendant" (done or arranged) by the PJ on their arguido form was incorrect.
I haven't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context.
Concerning Amaral, I had a glance at various court rulings. The term "arguido" seems to be used in court until the end of the appeals process. In his case, his conviction was upheld.
My broader point is simply to illustrate how language and cultural difficulties can lead to misunderstandings.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 11:17:53 AM
Not at all. It results from a number of factors. Many people around the world have English as a second language, due to the influence of (a) the british empire and british colonisation and exploration of different parts of the world (b) US films and TV (c) literature
In the same way that French is widely spoken in morocco, in the far east etc, and in diplomatic and political circles.
And it is on a need basis - people in tourist areas (such as the coast of Portugal, (where tourism is of such importance to the economy) will tend to be able to speak english and possibly german.
The last factor is utility - in the UK, because so many people round the world do speak English, there is little incentive to develop skills in other tongues. If you take Holland as an example, the dutch often speak several languages because they are a trading nation and very few foreigners speak any dutch. So they have to learn other languages.
It has very little to do with intelligence or other abilities. Although it is very useful, of course.
This brings up the uncomfortable question, of course. If the translations provided by the Portuguese members were in any way wrong or biased - then why? What was the point?
And that is an incredibly big if..
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 11:24:43 AM
For anyone interested, entries for "arguido" in the IATE database.
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
acusação
factos imputados ao arguido
EN
specification
charge
count of indictment
Criminal law [COM] Full entry PT
arguido
EN
defendant
accused
accused person
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
absolver o arguido
EN
to acquit
to exonerate the accused from prosecution
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
coarguido
EN
joint defendant
co-defendant
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
absolver plenamente o arguido
absolvição plena
EN
to discharge the accused on every count
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
absolvição do arguido
EN
to discharge a defendant
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
ordenar a comparência do arguido noutra audiência
EN
to remand the prisoner
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
documento arguido de falsidade
documento arguido de nulidade
EN
deed asserted to be forged,void
LAW [COM] Full entry PT
apresentação do arguido após declaração de contumácia
EN
to surrender to law after being sentenced in absence
Yes, Faithlilly, so incredibly big that it were no luxury for the sceptic pros to spend a dime at least on key documents ! Unless their objective is only to attack the work of the "Portuguese" (Inês is neither Portuguese nor lusophone btw), no matter Madeleine's fate.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 11:48:28 AM
Arugido is a very specific term, having its roots in latin "arguire" - to argue. It gives certain rights - legal representation and the right not to answer questions being two of them. In an inquisitorial system, these are important. (because the process is that the prosecution and the defendant work together to discover the truth).
A person has to be constituted an arguido before any further steps can be taken. A person cannot be charged or brought to trial. They will remain an arguido, but will be the defendant (assuming the PP gives leave to bring the case to trial).
So arguido in itself simply confers rights - it cannot be transalted in itself to mean defendant, offender or any other legal term.
It means the McCanns were official suspects in the disappearance of their daughter whether you like to admit it or not. The arguido status may have been lifted by the Portuguese authorities but it can be reinstated at any time since the case has not yet been determined.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 11:49:38 AM
Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations.
On the whole, I've found that the volunteer file translators have done their best. Of course, there have been mistakes and missing sentences and - as far as I'm aware - corrections have been made.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 11:52:13 AM
I haven't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context.
Do you mean you haven't found the name of the translator or haven't found the translation itself ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Chinagirl on August 25, 2013, 12:04:08 PM
Angelo: Just to remind you:
Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 12:07:05 PM
Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations.
Instead of keeping that for yourself like a skeleton in the cupboard, why didn't you denounce what would appear a work of public salubrity and bring you the gratitude of all ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations.
On the whole, I've found that the volunteer file translators have done their best. Of course, there have been mistakes and missing sentences and - as far as I'm aware - corrections have been made.
Alterations have certainly been made. And I am not saying they are corrections either, but alterations.
I have hard copies of one such.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 12:17:09 PM
Neither her parents or any of the members of the group that were with her are either persons of interest or suspects.
Not according to the Portuguese Police and it is their case on their patch. SY are merely spectators when it comes down to it and that is all they will ever be. @)(++(*
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 12:20:59 PM
I have never said anything different, in fact I was the one who brought up the subject of the word being translated to convey different meanings of the word according to the context of the stage in the judicial process in the first place. I have no problem with that, providing the word chosen conveys the meaning as closely as possible in the context.
What I was trying to point out is that the translation of "constituição de arguido" as "held as defendant" (done or arranged) by the PJ on their arguido form was incorrect.
I haven't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context.
Concerning Amaral, I had a glance at various court rulings. The term "arguido" seems to be used in court until the end of the appeals process. In his case, his conviction was upheld.
My broader point is simply to illustrate how language and cultural difficulties can lead to misunderstandings.
I have no problem with that. 8((()*/
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 12:23:33 PM
Instead of keeping that for yourself like a skeleton in the cupboard, why didn't you denounce what would appear a work of public salubrity and bring you the gratitude of all ?
I don't understand what you mean. Could you clarify?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 25, 2013, 12:25:31 PM
Not according to the Portuguese Police and it is their case on their patch. SY are merely spectators when it comes down to it and that is all they will ever be. @)(++(*
Given their record recently I wouldn't trust the YARD lot with a case of shoplifting.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 25, 2013, 12:29:04 PM
I don't understand what you mean. Could you clarify?
You don't understand ? You wrote "Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations." Couldn't you, instead of just accusing X of Y, try to recall those deliberate mistranslations, justify your point and correct mistakes that could mislead readers ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 12:50:52 PM
You don't understand ? You wrote "Reading through some of the comments here, I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations." Couldn't you, instead of just accusing X of Y, try to recall those deliberate mistranslations, justify your point and correct mistakes that could mislead readers ?
- Which part of "I can't recall - offhand - instances of translations of the files that I have felt were deliberate mistranslations" is causing you confusion?
- Who have I accused?
There may have been at some point, but I simply don't recall any.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
The "deliberate" is offensive. If you don't recall what's the point of suggesting ?
Anne, I have hard copies of one such deliberate changing of meaning. It is only minor, but it definitely changes the meaning, and it shouldn't have happened. It happened later, so it was deliberate.. Not at the time of the actual translations
I am not prepared to share the document.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 25, 2013, 01:18:14 PM
The "deliberate" is offensive. If you don't recall what's the point of suggesting ?
Let's try again, Anne.
I don't think anyone would deny that there have been mistakes and that sometimes sentences or passages have been left out.
The issue concerning the files was whether they were genuine mistakes, misunderstandings, word processor glitches, the translation of a draft instead of the final version... or whether there was a deliberate attempt to obfuscate.
As I've now said several times: I don't recall... deliberate ones. There may have been a few suspicious ones, but either I've forgotten about them, or didn't notice any.
ETA: I asked you who I've accused of deliberately mistranslating the files. Did I miss your reply?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 01:41:58 PM
I don't think anyone would deny that there have been mistakes and that sometimes sentences or passages have been left out.
The issue concerning the files was whether they were genuine mistakes, misunderstandings, word processor glitches, the translation of a draft instead of the final version... or whether there was a deliberate attempt to obfuscate.
As I've now said several times: I don't recall... deliberate ones. There may have been a few suspicious ones, but either I've forgotten about them, or didn't notice any.
Carana, if you didn't notice or if you forgot your suspicions, then why mentioning that at all, instead of expressing your gratitude for the hard work translating the files has been ? Why not, positively, share your doubts concerning a (supposedly innocent) mistake ? That would show a certain consideration for the benevolent translators and they deserve it. When Chinagirl and Gilet aggressively accuse systematically the translations to be bad quality ones just because the translators are not "professional" or are "misleading", your silence is like admitting they're right. Chinagirl presented once an official translation of 2 or 3 sentences of the AG report as an example of the superiority of "professional" translations. I tried to demonstrate that Astro's translation was better. The conclusion was the second was "poor English" ! I don't recall you protested. Gilet took advantage of a bad translation whose author she never revealed of Mr Amaral's book to accuse him of exactly the opposite of what he had written. The context discredited that biased interpretation but the evil had been spread that Mr Amaral deliberately used in his books elements that could hamper the search for Madeleine. I don't recall you protested.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 02:15:00 PM
Anne, I have hard copies of one such deliberate changing of meaning. It is only minor, but it definitely changes the meaning, and it shouldn't have happened. It happened later, so it was deliberate.. Not at the time of the actual translations
I am not prepared to share the document.
We'll believe you sadie 8(0(*
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 02:24:59 PM
Carana, if you didn't notice or if you forgot your suspicions, then why mentioning that at all, instead of expressing your gratitude for the hard work translating the files has been ? Why not, positively, share your doubts concerning a (supposedly innocent) mistake ? That would show a certain consideration for the benevolent translators and they deserve it. When Chinagirl and Gilet aggressively accuse systematically the translations to be bad quality ones just because the translators are not "professional" or are "misleading", your silence is like admitting they're right. Chinagirl presented once an official translation of 2 or 3 sentences of the AG report as an example of the superiority of "professional" translations. I tried to demonstrate that Astro's translation was better. The conclusion was the second was "poor English" ! I don't recall you protested. Gilet took advantage of a bad translation whose author she never revealed of Mr Amaral's book to accuse him of exactly the opposite of what he had written. The context discredited that biased interpretation but the evil had been spread that Mr Amaral deliberately used in his books elements that could hamper the search for Madeleine. I don't recall you protested.
Is that a roundabout way of saying that, in fact, you haven't found any instances of where I've accused anyone of a deliberate mistranslation of the files?
- How can you say that I've never expressed appreciation for the volunteer translators?
Personally, I find that the volunteer translators have made a huge effort. Without them many of us wouldn't have had a clue as to the content of the files.
There are, however, some mistakes and possibly more than one questionable instances of interpretation.
- If I notice a specific point on a translation issue, I'll comment if I've found anything that may help to clarify the point in question.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 04:01:01 PM
Is that a roundabout way of saying that, in fact, you haven't found any instances of where I've accused anyone of a deliberate mistranslation of the files?
- How can you say that I've never expressed appreciation for the volunteer translators?
- If I notice a specific point on a translation issue, I'll comment if I've found anything that may help to clarify the point in question.
My point was only your suggestion of deliberate mistakes you didn't recall, nothing more. I was rather curious to learn how you would eventually infer the deliberate aspect of the mistake. Chinagirl's umpteenth remark about the "disastrous" translations just remembered me of your lack of reaction in two precise recent cases. Now the issue is not to comment there are mistakes in the translations, nobody being perfect that's obvious, the issue is to point them and try to have them corrected.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 04:09:28 PM
My point was only your suggestion of deliberate mistakes you didn't recall, nothing more. I was rather curious to learn how you would eventually infer the deliberate aspect of the mistake. Chinagirl's umpteenth remark about the "disastrous" translations just remembered me of your lack of reaction in two precise recent cases. Now the issue is not to comment there are mistakes in the translations, nobody being perfect that's obvious, the issue is to point them and try to have them corrected.
The example that I have proof of was very deliberately changed. It wasn't an accident. A minor change, but it made a small but significant difference to the meaning.
I cannot share ... sorry.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 25, 2013, 04:23:13 PM
I'm precisely criticizing this, Sadie. Either you say it, arguing properly, or you keep silent. Spreading doubts is unacceptable, there are sufficient ones in this case.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 05:02:07 PM
I'm precisely criticizing this, Sadie. Either you say it, arguing properly, or you keep silent. Spreading doubts is unacceptable, there are sufficient ones in this case.
There are no doubts Anne, but I cannot share cos it might be ex judicy. It's with SY atm. as is another document which lies.
Casting my mind over it again, both the ?deliberate lie and the minor change are on the same document. The lie has, I believe, stood since the document was written; the minor change which slightly alters the meaning has only stood for about 3 years
You either believe me, or you dont . That is up to you
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 05:07:44 PM
My point was only your suggestion of deliberate mistakes you didn't recall, nothing more. I was rather curious to learn how you would eventually infer the deliberate aspect of the mistake. Chinagirl's umpteenth remark about the "disastrous" translations just remembered me of your lack of reaction in two precise recent cases. Now the issue is not to comment there are mistakes in the translations, nobody being perfect that's obvious, the issue is to point them and try to have them corrected.
This was your original accusation against me: "Couldn't you, instead of just accusing X of Y, try to recall those deliberate mistranslations, justify your point and correct mistakes that could mislead readers ?"
Could you provide links to substantiate that accusation against me?
Otherwise, I'll assume that your accusation was an emotional outburst for some reason best known to yourself. In which case, I suggest that we return to the topic under discussion, which is "The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice."
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 05:11:45 PM
I haven't implicated anyone. That is for SY to work out if they wish
But that is the only reason you would have alerted SY to the error. So YOU think a translator has mistranslated one small part of a document and YOU believe that somehow that points to them being involved ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 05:23:34 PM
But that is the only reason you would have alerted SY to the error. So YOU think a translator has mistranslated one small part of a document and YOU believe that somehow that points to them being involved ?
I am not being drawn, but there is a major error in one of the documents (in I believe it's original state) and there was a very minor change made about three years ago, which slightly changed the sense of the document. I have several hard copies of this document in both its states. Pre 3 years ago and since.
That is all you will hear from me on the subject
As I said, believe it or not. It is up to you.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 05:26:42 PM
I am not being drawn, but there is a major error in one of the documents (in I believe it's original state) and there was a very minor change made about three years ago, which slightly changed the sense of the document. I have several hard copies of this document in both its states. Pre 3 years ago and since.
That is all you will hear from me on the subject
As I said, believe it or not. It is up to you.
So the major error is in an original document, not the translation ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 05:51:22 PM
I am not being drawn Faith. Possibly ex judicy.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 05:56:55 PM
Have you and your ilk ever thought that maybe you are actually impeding the work of SY, and therefore their ability to find Madeleine, by obliging them to follow up ridiculous 'theories' like yours ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 07:05:26 PM
Have you and your ilk ever thought that maybe you are actually impeding the work of SY, and therefore their ability to find Madeleine, by obliging them to follow up ridiculous 'theories' like yours ?
You think it is ridiculous, but others think not including Angelo. He said that it could be right .... and Icabod didn't challenge it. Just you and Red and Stephen and, I think Anne set about trying to destroy it.
I make no pretence; it is only a theory, but it all fits ... and perfectly.
However the theories and FACTS that I have sent them are new. None of my theories here has gone to them as far as I can remember.
And it is all original .. based heavily on FACTS. Never seen on the internet.
I know that it might not be totally right, but there is a mighty jigsaw of pieces that fit together. I also know that if I have accidentally put a piece of the jigsaw in upside down, then I could be wrong on certain aspects.
Oh and SY are listening to me despite somebody having poisoned my name,by saying that I am a psychic.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2013, 10:25:49 PM
You think it is ridiculous, but others think not including Angelo. He said that it could be right .... and Icabod didn't challenge it. Just you and Red and Stephen and, I think Anne set about trying to destroy it.
I make no pretence; it is only a theory, but it all fits ... and perfectly.
However the theories and FACTS that I have sent them are new. None of my theories here has gone to them as far as I can remember.
And it is all original .. based heavily on FACTS. Never seen on the internet.
I know that it might not be totally right, but there is a mighty jigsaw of pieces that fit together. I also know that if I have accidentally put a piece of the jigsaw in upside down, then I could be wrong on certain aspects.
Oh and SY are listening to me despite somebody having poisoned my name,by saying that I am a psychic.
I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you sadie but SY are not listening to you. They are taking the information proffered, smiling sweetly and filing it in the receptacle marked 'bin'. If you thnk otherwise then I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Chinagirl on August 25, 2013, 10:49:45 PM
Chinagirl's umpteenth remark about the "disastrous" translations just remembered me of your lack of reaction in two precise recent cases.
My point is made, I think .... 8)--))
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: sadie on August 25, 2013, 10:50:31 PM
I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you sadie but SY are not listening to you. They are taking the information proffered, smiling sweetly and filing it in the receptacle marked 'bin'. If you thnk otherwise then I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.
Oh yeah! 8(>(( @)(++(*
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 27, 2013, 12:22:17 PM
Quote from: Carana on August 25, 2013, 11:07:36 AM I haven't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context. __________________________________ Do you mean you haven't found the name of the translator or haven't found the translation itself ? _________________________ Carana, you didn't answer about the lack of indication concerning the offending use of offender.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 27, 2013, 02:05:38 PM
Anne, on another pending topic... have you found a source for 13 markers in the US and France as being sufficient for legal purposes on paternity?
Carana, you first mentioned a translation of "arguido" by "offender" in a MP letter to the McCanns that upset Mr O'Brien. Then you said you "hadn't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context." I asked whether you hadn't found the name of the translator or the letter itself with the erroneous translation. If you didn't find that MP letter to the McCanns, how do you know about the "offender" ? Do you read French ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 28, 2013, 02:46:20 PM
Carana, could you please answer to the pending topic above ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2013, 02:53:57 PM
Carana, you first mentioned a translation of "arguido" by "offender" in a MP letter to the McCanns that upset Mr O'Brien. Then you said you "hadn't found any indication as to who arranged the translation of the prosecutor's letter to the T7, but "offender" was even less correct in context." I asked whether you hadn't found the name of the translator or the letter itself with the erroneous translation. If you didn't find that MP letter to the McCanns, how do you know about the "offender" ? Do you read French ?
The PJ seemed to use bystanders such as Murat as an interpreter in police interviews (which is unbelievable). So maybe they used the same in translations of documents.
Oui, bien sur. Pourquoi?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: DCI on August 28, 2013, 03:00:00 PM
The PJ seemed to use bystanders such as Murat as an interpreter in police interviews (which is unbelievable). So maybe they used the same in translations of documents.
Oui, bien sur. Pourquoi?
And, Sylvia Batista, maintenance manager of the OC.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 28, 2013, 03:47:27 PM
The letter was sent by the Ministério Publico.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 28, 2013, 06:28:43 PM
Quote
Reply #89 on: August 24, 2013, 06:58:36 PM »
Carana : And what would appear to be yet another mistranslation of arguido as "offender" might explain Russell's horrified reaction regarding the reconstruction:
Furthermore, we think it is hard to imagine a productive return to Portugal whilst Kate and Gerry remain arguidos. Secondly, the Prosecutor astonishingly referring to them as 'offenders' in their letter implies they are already considered to be guilty, and will be treated as such by the police and press. Furthermore the leaking of the date even before your email completely contradicts the letter's pretence to secrecy for the re-enactment.
Translating arguido as defendant prior to any arrest or charge was bad enough, but "offender" really takes the biscuit...
Carana, I asked you if you had seen the offending translation that made, at least in part, Mr O'Brien refuse to participate in the reconstruction. You haven't answer. Shall I deduce that this is in fact a pretext invented by Mr O'Brien or given to him by Mr McCann ? Or is it a biscuit as you call it ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 28, 2013, 07:12:18 PM
The question seems to have been moved to a different thread.
There's no reason why this post of Carana should be in the paternity thread where besides it is still on this thread ! The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice. « Reply #89 on: August 24, 2013, 06:58:36 PM »
Don't ask me... Mods decided that the discussion should have been split. I was simply trying to respect that decision and have replied on the other thread.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 28, 2013, 07:50:16 PM
I think that the mods are right in this instance... what is the connection between paternity issues and arguido status in this case?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 28, 2013, 07:54:41 PM
(screaming in the deset)
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 28, 2013, 08:28:38 PM
I think that the mods are right in this instance... what is the connection between paternity issues and arguido status in this case?
I've finally understood that in your quest of abusive translations for "arguido", you found what appeared to you as "juicy" : an "horrified reaction regarding the reconstruction" of Mr O'Brian who reports that the Public Prosecutor, in a letter, considered the McCanns as offenders. You couldn't resist to denounce a serious and misleading translation, though you had no evidence of it except for an hearsay of Mr O'Brien. You didn't reply simply because there's no proof that the letter sent by the Public Prosecutor was mistranslated. But you raised involuntarily a very interesting point : who told Mr O'Brien that the McCanns were considered guilty by the Public Prosecutor ?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 29, 2013, 12:09:39 PM
As I've said before, I have no idea where Russell got the idea of offender from. However, it would seem to be an odd thing to invent as an objection in replying to the police.
A potential source of confusion could have arisen if any of the correspondence included "denunciado / arguido". This terminology was used in the PJ final report, but I haven't found it used in the context of the reconstruction.
NUIPC-201/07.0 GALGS 4th Brigade Inspector João Carlos Denouncer/Offended – Judiciary Police Denunciated/Arguidos - Robert James Queriol Evelegh Murat , identified and questioned at pgs. 1170, 1947 and 1959. * Gerald Patrick McCann , identified and questioned at pgs. 2569. * Kate Marie Healy , identified and questioned at pgs. 2557
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 29, 2013, 12:59:06 PM
There's no "offender" here as translation for "arguido'. If this ridiculous idea didn't originate in Mr O'Brien's head, it was suggested to him somehow.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 29, 2013, 03:03:04 PM
I wonder if the McCanns' lawyer was told that Eddie reacted inside the boot? If so, it might have contributed to his advice to Kate.
In de Almeida's interim report, de Almeida seemed to be under the impression that Eddie had been.
7. Vehicle used by the McCann family 7.1. Cadaver dog: * Marked the key of the car * Marked the interior of the booth 7.2. Blood dog * Marked the car key * Marked the interior of the booth
What Grime actually said was that he didn't intend to put the dog inside the car (just before 4mins).
Verbal Report of Martin Grime Referring to the Search Made of Vehicles Using the Dogs
Transcription/Translation
Vehicle No 1 - number plate 75-AG-62 Vehicle No2 - number plate 45-49-ER Vehicle No3 - number plate RI-96-03 Vehicle No4 - number plate 59-DA-27 Vehicle No5 - number plate 96-26-VE Vehicle No6 - number plate 44-77-KD Vehicle No7 - number plate VH-24-22 Vehicle No8 - number plate 57-12-HP Vehicle No9 - number plate 10-91-FP Vehicle No10 - number plate 07-50-UI
We examined the cars with the dog and the only reaction we got was in relation to the car in the extreme corner. I will indicate that it was the Renault. What we have is a reaction to this door here, where (the dog) lifts its head in the air and sniffs for the objects which it has been trained to detect. And when we limit our movements, the dog chooses this car, this door. It is important to know that the dog chooses the odour that comes from the lower part of the door. Based on this information, I will try to place the dog inside the car.
That could explain that mistake, but just from observing the distinct markings on Keela and Eddie, someone should have noticed that it wasn't Eddie.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Benice on August 29, 2013, 04:53:16 PM
Quote From Amarals book
- The CSI dog, Keela, signalled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour - on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards. End quote
So if Grime did not put Eddie in the car - then Amaral's claim that Eddie alerted to cadavour odour in the boot of the car is not true.
.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 29, 2013, 06:50:02 PM
- The CSI dog, Keela, signalled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour - on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards. End quote
So if Grime did not put Eddie in the car - then Amaral's claim that Eddie alerted to cadavour odour in the boot of the car is not true.
But Amaral could quote Tavares de Almeida's interim report to justify his position, and could presumably state that he had no idea that TdeA or the translator had got it wrong. If he'd actually watched the video, he might have noticed that it wasn't the same dog.
.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 29, 2013, 06:56:50 PM
How far can he justify having got details wrong due to selective reading of documents, and how far could public opinion be swayed in favour of assuming that he was actually aware of the details in the case?
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 01:35:05 PM
The silence is deafening...
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 01:39:17 PM
- The CSI dog, Keela, signalled the presence of human blood where Eddie, the EVRD dog, marked the presence of cadaver odour - on the floor tiles behind the sofa in the lounge, on the key and in the boot of the Renault Scenic that was used by the McCanns from May 27th onwards. End quote
So if Grime did not put Eddie in the car - then Amaral's claim that Eddie alerted to cadavour odour in the boot of the car is not true.
And there never was a boot well in the Grand Scenic...
They could stand up in court that this is what they had assumed at the time. Depending on the mysteries of PT law, that may be accepted.
But shouldn't top investigators have checked?
.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Luz on September 01, 2013, 03:54:24 AM
And there never was a boot well in the Grand Scenic...
They could stand up in court that this is what they had assumed at the time. Depending on the mysteries of PT law, that may be accepted.
But shouldn't top investigators have checked?
.
It's quite amusing that you (and your partners) have chosen as an excuse for your twisted reading of the documents, the portuguese inadequacy to translate or read translated documents.
Allow me to be a trifle arrogant. We may not express ourselves in the best english semantics and syntax but we, as a nation, have been trained since birth to understand several foreign languages, and in the Algarve, where we have been almost colonized, especially English.
a boot = a boot and almost every car has a boot well in or under....Mine is not a Grand Scenic and it is under.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on September 01, 2013, 08:26:45 AM
I don't recall Amaral himself talking about a wheel well.
The myth of "bodily fluids" and "clumps of hair" in the "spare tyre well" with elastic percentages of her DNA (88% or 100%) was all over the press back in September 07, just after the McCanns had gone back to the UK. And still gets repeated as a trooo fact today.
Title: Re: The 'arguido' interviews and the impact of lawyers advice.
Post by: Carana on September 03, 2013, 06:09:12 PM
It's quite amusing that you (and your partners) have chosen as an excuse for your twisted reading of the documents, the portuguese inadequacy to translate or read translated documents.
Allow me to be a trifle arrogant. We may not express ourselves in the best english semantics and syntax but we, as a nation, have been trained since birth to understand several foreign languages, and in the Algarve, where we have been almost colonized, especially English.
a boot = a boot and almost every car has a boot well in or under....Mine is not a Grand Scenic and it is under.