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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: ferryman on August 28, 2013, 07:10:14 AM
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It is quite extraordinary that (I hope) an ex-policeman found guilty of a torture of medieval barbarity (and origin) (bastinado) can receive a suspended sentence; yet a poor woman, deemed not to have got her story completely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness, by police officers, while tied to a chair with a bag over head, gets her sentence increased.
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It is quite extraordinary that (I hope) an ex-policeman found guilty of a torture of medieval barbarity (and origin) (bastinado) can receive a suspended sentence; yet a poor woman, deemed not to have got her story completely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness, by police officers, while tied to a chair with a bag over head, gets her sentence increased.
'found guilty of a torture of medieval barbarity '
Who was ?
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'found guilty of a torture of medieval barbarity '
Who was ?
Almeida.
Pena suspensa para dupla da PJ condenada por tortura
Dois inspetores-chefes da PJ foram condenados, esta sexta-feira, a dois anos e seis meses de prisão, com pena suspensa, por tortura contra o funcionário da CP Virgolino Borges, disse à Lusa o advogado da vítima.
25 de Janeiro, 18h09Nº de votos (5) Comentários (7)
A notícia da condenação dos dois inspetores da Polícia Judiciária foi avançada pela SIC Notícias.
O coletivo de juízes da 3ªa vara criminal de Lisboa condenou pelo de tortura os inspetores-chefe José Diamantino Santos e Vitor Tavares de Almeida e ao pagamento de uma multa de 80 euros/mês pelo mesmo período, indicou à Lusa o advogado Jerónimo Martins.
Translation:
Suspended sentence for duo PJ convicted of torture
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced on Friday to two years and six months imprisonment with suspended sentence for torture against the official CP Virgolino Borges, told Lusa the victim's lawyer.
January 25, 18h09N of votes (5) Comments (7)
The news of the sentencing of two inspectors of the Judicial Police was advanced by SIC Notícias.
The collective of judges from the 3rd to the criminal court of Lisbon condemned the torture inspectors Chief Joseph Diamond Santos and Vitor Tavares de Almeida and the payment of a fine of 80 euros / month for the same period, told the Lusa attorney Jerónimo Martins.
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Almeida.
Of who and where's the proof ?
and what relevance does this have to this case ?
Where the Mccanns tortured ?
Where their associates tortured ?
Was anyone in this case tortured ?
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More on bastinado:
Bastinado
Bastinado involves beating a prisoner on the soles of his or her feet with a stick. This method of torture relies on the fact that the foot is a fragile appendage with numerous bones, tendons, joints, and muscles. It is also a place where nerve endings are close to the surface and therefore especially susceptible to pain. Such violence applied to the foot is particularly unpleasant.
During Bastinado, a victim's legs are usually bound together and often tied to a horizontal length of wood, so the feet are exposed to the torturer. Anything from a club to a slender bamboo wand is used to inflict the punishment. The pain radiates up the legs, coursing through the body and up to the head. After the torture, the prisoner might be forced to walk around, sometimes carrying weights on his back.
The act of Bastinado, generally used to punish miscreants but also to elicit answers from torture victims, extends back through history hundreds of years. An officially sanctioned penalty, Bastinado was popular in such countries as Persia and Turkey for many centuries. It was also used in other parts of the world. The Chinese practiced their techniques on blocks of bean curd to learn to hit the surface without breaking the skin so they could learn how to produce great pain while only leaving the lightest marks. Bastinado is still sometimes used in backroom tortures.
And Almeida and his fellow cohort got only a suspended sentence?
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Ferryman. You make mention of bastinado but where is it reported that PJ officers were guilty of such an offence?
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Horrifying.... and truly appalling to think of such methods being used in the 21st century - by a police force that, we are supposed to believe, is one of the world's finest!
8()(((@#
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More on bastinado:
Bastinado
Bastinado involves beating a prisoner on the soles of his or her feet with a stick. This method of torture relies on the fact that the foot is a fragile appendage with numerous bones, tendons, joints, and muscles. It is also a place where nerve endings are close to the surface and therefore especially susceptible to pain. Such violence applied to the foot is particularly unpleasant.
During Bastinado, a victim's legs are usually bound together and often tied to a horizontal length of wood, so the feet are exposed to the torturer. Anything from a club to a slender bamboo wand is used to inflict the punishment. The pain radiates up the legs, coursing through the body and up to the head. After the torture, the prisoner might be forced to walk around, sometimes carrying weights on his back.
The act of Bastinado, generally used to punish miscreants but also to elicit answers from torture victims, extends back through history hundreds of years. An officially sanctioned penalty, Bastinado was popular in such countries as Persia and Turkey for many centuries. It was also used in other parts of the world. The Chinese practiced their techniques on blocks of bean curd to learn to hit the surface without breaking the skin so they could learn how to produce great pain while only leaving the lightest marks. Bastinado is still sometimes used in backroom tortures.
And Almeida and his fellow cohort got only a suspended sentence?
So where is the evidence that Almeida or anyone else did this ?
Again, what relevance does this have to this case ?
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Ferryman. You make mention of bastinado but where is it reported that PJ officers were guilty of such an offence?
Expresso
google
Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture
Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Rui Gustavo and Ricardo Marques
17:44 Friday, January 25, 2013
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, Vitor Tavares de Almeida and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author and should appeal the conviction.
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
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FYI Stephen, Tavares was the author of the interim report that Amaral relied on so heavily in his book.
His conviction is an indication of the sort of man he is, really.
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All that is visible form those supporting the Mccanns on this thread is to divert attention.
Concentrate on this case.
LOL at the supreme irony of that comment. You wouldn't be trying to divert attention away from the fact that you have just had it confirmed that Tavares is a convicted torturer would you?
As for your second comment - can we take it that you will not be mentioning the Barry George case again?
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LOL at the supreme irony of that comment. You wouldn't be trying to divert attention away from the fact that you have just had it confirmed that Tavares is a convicted torturer would you?
As for your second comment - can we take it that you will not be mentioning the Barry George case again?
Who did this Tavares torture ?
Did he do it himself ?
Do you have proof ?
and of course rather more importantly, what does it have to do with what the Mccanns failed to do, i.e. take care of their children ?
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Who did this Tavares torture ?
Did he do it himself ?
Do you have proof ?
and of course rather more importantly, what does it have to do with what the Mccanns failed to do, i.e. take care of their children ?
Why are you asking such silly questions - when you have quoted the details of the 'torture' case yourself in post no. 406?
I see you have studiously ignored my query to you regarding further mention of the Barry George case, and prefer instead to wheel out your usual tired old mantra. The last resort of most 'sceptics' to divert attention away from unpalatable facts - to which they have no answer IMO. So predictable.
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Why are you asking such silly questions - when you have quoted the details of the 'torture' case yourself in post no. 406?
I see you have studiously ignored my query to you regarding further mention of the Barry George case, and prefer instead to wheel out your usual tired old mantra. The last resort of most 'sceptics' to divert attention away from unpalatable facts - to which they have no answer IMO. So predictable.
Not silly questions, just pertinent.
To which you cannot answer.
Now prove to me the man tortured someone and then tell me what does this have to do with the Mccanns case.
The unpalatable fact you cannot bear in this case, is there is no proof of abduction, and without that you can only look in one direction..............
..... removed ...
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Who did this Tavares torture ?
Did he do it himself ?
Do you have proof ?
and of course rather more importantly, what does it have to do with what the Mccanns failed to do, i.e. take care of their children ?
Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture
Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Rui Gustavo and Ricardo Marques
17:44 Friday, January 25, 2013
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, Vitor Tavares de Almeida and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author and should appeal the conviction.
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores ... ra=f782292
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Not silly questions, just pertinent.
To which you cannot answer.
Now prove to me the man tortured someone and then tell me what does this have to do with the Mccanns case.
The unpalatable fact you cannot bear in this case, is there is no proof of abduction, and without that you can only look in one direction..............
THE MCCANNS.
Still trying to divert I see. The answers to your 'pertinent' questions regarding Tavares are contained in your own post No.406.
I presume you are not going to answer my question relating to what the Barry George case has got to do with this case.
Do your powers of '' Reason and Logic'' stretch to explaining why you believe you know better than SY who have stated that the McCanns and their friends are neither suspects nor persons of interest in this case.
What is it you know that they appear to have overlooked. Do tell.
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Still trying to divert I see. The answers to your 'pertinent' questions regarding Tavares are contained in your own post No.406.
I presume you are not going to answer my question relating to what the Barry George case has got to do with this case.
Do your powers of '' Reason and Logic'' stretch to explaining why you believe you know better than SY who have stated that the McCanns and their friends are neither suspects nor persons of interest in this case.
What is it you know that they appear to have overlooked. Do tell.
Oh dear.
As you and a few others keep referring to SY.
Barry George...Redwood...incompetent.
Get the connection ?
SY believe she may have been abducted.
So where is the proof of abdication ?
Meanwhile what has any member of the PJ got to do with the disappearance of Madeleine from the apartment ?
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Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture
Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Rui Gustavo and Ricardo Marques
17:44 Friday, January 25, 2013
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, Vitor Tavares de Almeida and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author and should appeal the conviction.
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores ... ra=f782292
Same question to you, what has this man got to do with the disappearance of Madeleine from the apartment ?
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Stephen - I don't really know whether you are being tick or just obtuse. Tavares was one of the investigating team on the McCanns case. He wrote the interim report. He has been convicted of being involved in the torture of a person in another case.
The relevance is that it is a measure of the man and his methods, and is therefore pertinent to any case in which he is involved.
It is also interesting to see just how many of Amarals cronies are in trouble with the law.
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Stephen - I don't really know whether you are being tick or just obtuse. Tavares was one of the investigating team on the McCanns case. He wrote the interim report. He has been convicted of being involved in the torture of a person in another case.
The relevance is that it is a measure of the man and his methods, and is therefore pertinent to any case in which he is involved.
It is also interesting to see just how many of Amarals cronies are in trouble with the law.
Whatever involvement he may or may not have had, it does not mean he got it wrong in this case.
Please stop clutching at straws.
Put the blame where it belongs.
..... removed ....
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Oh dear.
As you and a few others keep referring to SY.
Barry George...Redwood...incompetent.
Get the connection ?
SY believe she may have been abducted.
So where is the proof of abdication ?
Meanwhile what has any member of the PJ got to do with the disappearance of Madeleine from the apartment ?
So where is Redwood's criminal record for corrupt practices?
And what has the Barry George case got to do with the abduction of Madeleine from the apartment?
McCann case - Tavares - corrupt police officer with a criminal record for torturing a witness.
McCann case - Amaral - corrupt police officer with a criminal record for falsifying documents about a witness.
See anything there to worry about if they were investigating you Stephen? Or would you prefer Redwood?
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So where is Redwood's criminal record for corrupt practices?
And what has the Barry George case got to do with the abduction of Madeleine from the apartment?
McCann case - Tavares - corrupt police officer with a criminal record for torturing a witness.
McCann case - Amaral - corrupt police officer with a criminal record for falsifying documents about a witness.
See anything there to worry about if they were investigating you Stephen? Or would you prefer Redwood?
What Tavares and Amaral may or may not have done, does not mean, like the rest of the PJ they got it fundamentally wrong in this case.
So by bringing them into the discussion I have every right to bring in Redwood, who with his colleagues got it so wrong in the Jill Dando case.
So you can't have your cake and eat it.
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So where is Redwood's criminal record for corrupt practices?
And what has the Barry George case got to do with the abduction of Madeleine from the apartment?
McCann case - Tavares - corrupt police officer with a criminal record for torturing a witness.
McCann case - Amaral - corrupt police officer with a criminal record for falsifying documents about a witness.
See anything there to worry about if they were investigating you Stephen? Or would you prefer Redwood?
Excellent post Benice 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
To the point and concisely put
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What Tavares and Amaral may or may not have done, does not mean, like the rest of the PJ they got it fundamentally wrong in this case.
So by bringing them into the discussion I have every right to bring in Redwood, who with his colleagues got it so wrong in the Jill Dando case.
So you can't have your cake and eat it.
Wasn't it your demand in a previous post that we should only ''concentrate on this case''? Make your mind up Stephen.
As investigating officers - Tavares and Amaral are part of this case and therefore their idea of what constitutes acceptable policing is very relevant.
Redwood on the other hand was never part of the case.
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Wasn't it your demand in a previous post that we should only ''concentrate on this case''? Make your mind up Stephen.
As investigating officers - Tavares and Amaral are part of this case and therefore their idea of what constitutes acceptable policing is very relevant.
Redwood on the other hand was never part of the case.
Well as he is part of the review team, he is.
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Not silly questions, just pertinent.
To which you cannot answer.
Now prove to me the man tortured someone and then tell me what does this have to do with the Mccanns case.
The unpalatable fact you cannot bear in this case, is there is no proof of abduction, and without that you can only look in one direction..............
THE MCCANNS.
Jean-Pierre already posted the conviction of Tavares de Almeida for torture in a different case. Did you miss it?
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Jean-Pierre already posted the conviction of Tavares de Almeida for torture in a different case. Did you miss it?
No.
Now tell me what this man has to do with the disappearance of Madeleine ?
As a brief reminder, ONCE AGAIN, the consensus of the PJ, not just one man, is that the parents were involved in covering up what happened to Madeleine.
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No.
Now tell me what this man has to do with the disappearance of Madeleine ?
As a brief reminder, ONCE AGAIN, the consensus of the PJ, not just one man, is that the parents were involved in covering up what happened to Madeleine.
Already answered either on this thread or the other thread ... today
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Already answered either on this thread or the other thread ... today
i.e. He has NOTHING to do with Madeleine's disappearance.
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I don't know about the rest of you.
I would have been totally franctic at the idea that one of my loved one's had disappeared, let alone in a foreign country in which I didn't understand the language.
I would have been doubly frantic if I had known that certain police officers had more than dubious allegations against them.
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I don't know about the rest of you.
I would have been totally franctic at the idea that one of my loved one's had disappeared, let alone in a foreign country in which I didn't understand the language.
I would have been doubly frantic if I had known that certain police officers had more than dubious allegations against them.
Me too, Carana.
The most frightening thing is that de Almeida has been allowed to keep his job.
The Met thug who pushed Ian Tomlinson was quite rightly fired.
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Perhaps this goes back to the arguido issue and the presumption of innocence.
Neither Amaral nor Almeida had exhausted their appeals by that time. They were also innocent until proven guilty.
The other perspective would seem to be that police officers faced with such serious allegations should never have been on such a case in the first place.
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Allegations against police officers are probably quite frequent.
Do people here find that police officers (or anyone else with a similar function assumed to be upholding the laws of the country) should remain in charge of cases of a similar nature until all appeals have determined guilt or innocence?
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Allegations against police officers are probably quite frequent.
Do people here find that police officers (or anyone else with a similar function assumed to be upholding the laws of the country) should remain in charge of cases of a similar nature until all appeals have determined guilt or innocence?
Both of them should have been immediately suspended and never been allowed within a million miles of the Madeleine case.
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Me too, Carana.
The most frightening thing is that de Almeida has been allowed to keep his job.
The Met thug who pushed Ian Tomlinson was quite rightly fired.
'I would have been totally franctic at the idea that one of my loved one's had disappeared, let alone in a foreign country in which I didn't understand the language.'
Very true. So why the hell did they leave their children in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country in the first place ?
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'I would have been totally franctic at the idea that one of my loved one's had disappeared, let alone in a foreign country in which I didn't understand the language.'
Very true. So why the hell did they leave their children in an unlocked apartment in a foreign country in the first place ?
They can't turn the clock back.
Whoever took her could have been your next-door neighbour. Whoever you deem that that could be.
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Allegations against police officers are probably quite frequent.
Do people here find that police officers (or anyone else with a similar function assumed to be upholding the laws of the country) should remain in charge of cases of a similar nature until all appeals have determined guilt or innocence?
Definitely thy should have been suspended, or at least only given very minor cases. They should still have stayed on the payroll until their case was completely settled IMO.
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Two inspectors PJ convicted of torture
Lawyer shows the victim was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," says the Express.
Rui Gustavo and Ricardo Marques
17:44 Friday, January 25, 2013
Two chief inspectors of the PJ were sentenced today to prison terms of two and a half years, suspended upon payment of a fine in that monthly period, for having tortured a man DCCB's premises in March 2000. Another element of PJ was acquitted.
In a judgment with about 40 pages, the Lisbon Criminal Court sentenced the two chief inspectors of the Judicial Police to pay each month, each, the sum of 80 euros for a fund that will ultimately accrue to the victim, Virgolino Borges, who was assistant in the process. The decision was known in 3. ª stick, by 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, lawyer Virgolino Borges, was relieved by the end of a process that has dragged on for 13 years. "From what I understand, it is the first time that such a process leads to the conviction of persons in concrete," he told Express.
The three inspectors - Diamond José dos Santos, Vitor Tavares de Almeida and Antonio Alves da Cunha, were part of the same brigade of the then Central Directorate for Combating Gangsterism (DCCB). In March 2000, Virgolino Borges was taken to the PJ on suspicion of theft (a process that eventually involved). On days 2 and 3, he complained, was beaten repeatedly with a board and punched in the feet by PJ inspectors.
In a first phase investigation, the prosecutor eventually dismiss the case. At that time, consisted Virgolino assistant and requested the opening statement - which culminated in the indictment of three police for the crime of torture, criminal whose frame varies between one and five years in prison.
The two defendants, Diamantino dos Santos de Almeida and Tavares were convicted co-author and should appeal the conviction.
The three inspectors Judicial, both now convicted and who was acquitted, all remain active.
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores ... ra=f782292
I see that some "cheat" has been at work on your post DCI.
The website address that you originally posted was:
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores...ra=f782292
The cheat added a couple of gaps to change the adddy,so that it would not work and changed it to
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores ... ra=f782292. The gaps prevent the necessary underline .. it will not work
Closely comparing the two:
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores ... ra=f782292 << Two extra gaps added to change the addy and destroy it.
http://expresso.sapo.pt/dois-inspetores...ra=f782292 <<< Original. No gaps.
See the differernce? Well the bottom one should work if you put it in your browser ... but the top one will not.
I hate cheats.
Dois inspetores da PJ condenados por tortura
Advogada da vítima mostra-se aliviado pelo fim de um processo que se arrasta há 13 anos. "Pelo que julgo saber, é a primeira vez que um processo desta natureza leva a condenação de pessoas em concreto", diz ao Expresso.
10
Ricardo Marques e Rui Gustavo |
17:44 Sexta feira, 25 de janeiro de 2013
Dois inspetores-chefe da PJ foram hoje condenados a penas de prisão de dois anos e meio, suspensas mediante o pagamento de uma multa mensal nesse período, por terem torturado um homem nas instalações da DCCB em março de 2000. Um outro elemento da PJ foi absolvido.
Num acórdão com cerca de 40 páginas, o Tribunal Criminal de Lisboa condenou os dois inspetores-chefes da Polícia Judiciária a pagarem, mensalmente, cada um, a quantia de 80 euros para um fundo que, no final, reverterá a favor da vítima, Virgolino Borges, que se constituiu assistente no processo. A decisão foi conhecida na 3.ª vara, pelas 14h30.
Jerónimo Martins, advogado de Virgolino Borges, mostrou-se aliviado pelo fim de um processo que se arrasta há 13 anos. "Pelo que julgo saber, é a primeira vez que um processo desta natureza leva a condenação de pessoas em concreto", afirmou ao Expresso.
Os três inspetores - José Diamantino dos Santos, Vítor Tavares de Almeida e António Alves da Cunha, faziam parte da mesma brigada da então Direção Central de Combate ao Banditismo (DCCB). Em março de 2000, Virgolino Borges foi levado para a PJ por suspeita de furto (um processo em que acabou por ser envolvido). Nos dias 2 e 3, queixou-se, foi agredido várias vezes a murro e com uma tábua nos pés pelos inspetores da PJ.
Numa primeira fase de investigação, o Ministério
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I suppose a relevant aspect is that both the coordinator, Amaral, and the chief-inspector, Tavares de Almeida, were at various stages in the judicial process concerning two alleged cases of torture.
- It does rather lend a different slant as to why FOI requests concerning correspondence between the FCO in Portugal and the Home Office may have been withheld from public disclosure. There is another FOI reply to another - broader but similar - request that is more complete, but I can't find the link at the moment:
By virtue of section 27(4)(a) of the Act, the duty to
confirm or deny does not arise if compliance with section 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information
Act 2000 would, or would be likely to, prejudice the interests of the United Kingdom abroad
(under section 27 (1) (c) of the FOIA) or the protection by the United Kingdom of its interest
abroad (under section 27 (1) (d) of the FOIA).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/3383/response/7834/attach/html/3/UBS%20Letter%20to%20Mr%20Dillon.pdf.html
- It also may help to explain why the McCanns were apparently accompanied by consular staff for meetings with the PJ.
- Why pro-Amaral spin was that the McCanns were afforded 'high-level protection' due to Gerry's non-existent VIP status: cue rumours about COMARE (nuclear industry), Freeport (high-level corruption), political family history and ambitions (wrong family).
IMO, the more likely explanation may be that the FCO had improved - and were keen to demonstrate - their service to UK citizens abroad in recent times (including support to help other countries swamped by the burden of media interest) and that they were fully aware of various slippery stairs.
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I suppose a relevant aspect is that both the coordinator, Amaral, and the chief-inspector, Tavares de Almeida, were at various stages in the judicial process concerning two alleged cases of torture.
- It does rather lend a different slant as to why FOI requests concerning correspondence between the FCO in Portugal and the Home Office may have been withheld from public disclosure. There is another FOI reply to another - broader but similar - request that is more complete, but I can't find the link at the moment:
By virtue of section 27(4)(a) of the Act, the duty to
confirm or deny does not arise if compliance with section 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information
Act 2000 would, or would be likely to, prejudice the interests of the United Kingdom abroad
(under section 27 (1) (c) of the FOIA) or the protection by the United Kingdom of its interest
abroad (under section 27 (1) (d) of the FOIA).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/3383/response/7834/attach/html/3/UBS%20Letter%20to%20Mr%20Dillon.pdf.html
- It also may help to explain why the McCanns were apparently accompanied by consular staff for meetings with the PJ.
- Why pro-Amaral spin was that the McCanns were afforded 'high-level protection' due to Gerry's non-existent VIP status: cue rumours about COMARE (nuclear industry), Freeport (high-level corruption), political family history and ambitions (wrong family).
IMO, the more likely explanation may be that the FCO had improved - and were keen to demonstrate - their service to UK citizens abroad in recent times (including support to help other countries swamped by the burden of media interest) and that they were fully aware of various slippery stairs.
Was there any violence at all directed toward the couple McCann ? Then I fail to see how it is relevant or are you simply going on the premiss that if you give a dog a bad name.... ?
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Was there any violence at all directed toward the couple McCann ? Then I fail to see how it is relevant or are you simply going on the premiss that if you give a dog a bad name.... ?
No PHYSICAL violence, luckily.
I do have sympathy with the Portuguese who feel that the McCanns were "privileged" compared to some of their own citizens.
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No PHYSICAL violence, luckily.
I do have sympathy with the Portuguese who feel that the McCanns were "privileged" compared to some of their own citizens.
With the number of deaths in custody being investigated in the UK at the present time do you also feel that anybody who is arrested and escapes physical harm while in the cells is lucky ?
As to the Portuguese feeling the McCanns were privileged I feel the opposite was true and they viewed them as rather crass and vulgar.
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With the number of deaths in custody being investigated in the UK at the present time do you also feel that anybody who is arrested and escapes physical harm while in the cells is lucky ?
As to the Portuguese feeling the McCanns were privileged I feel the opposite was true and they viewed them as rather crass and vulgar.
The nice Portuguese even let Gerry sit in with Kate for her first interview/statement. That doesn't usually happen.
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I suppose a relevant aspect is that both the coordinator, Amaral, and the chief-inspector, Tavares de Almeida, were at various stages in the judicial process concerning two alleged cases of torture.
- It does rather lend a different slant as to why FOI requests concerning correspondence between the FCO in Portugal and the Home Office may have been withheld from public disclosure. There is another FOI reply to another - broader but similar - request that is more complete, but I can't find the link at the moment:
By virtue of section 27(4)(a) of the Act, the duty to
confirm or deny does not arise if compliance with section 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information
Act 2000 would, or would be likely to, prejudice the interests of the United Kingdom abroad
(under section 27 (1) (c) of the FOIA) or the protection by the United Kingdom of its interest
abroad (under section 27 (1) (d) of the FOIA).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/3383/response/7834/attach/html/3/UBS%20Letter%20to%20Mr%20Dillon.pdf.html
- It also may help to explain why the McCanns were apparently accompanied by consular staff for meetings with the PJ.
- Why pro-Amaral spin was that the McCanns were afforded 'high-level protection' due to Gerry's non-existent VIP status: cue rumours about COMARE (nuclear industry), Freeport (high-level corruption), political family history and ambitions (wrong family).
IMO, the more likely explanation may be that the FCO had improved - and were keen to demonstrate - their service to UK citizens abroad in recent times (including support to help other countries swamped by the burden of media interest) and that they were fully aware of various slippery stairs.
Exactly as you say Carana, the British authorities were very well aware of what the Drs McCann were up against when Madeleine disappeared in Portugal.
There is no mystery about their concern ... the only mystery is why the word of a person with a criminal conviction for perjury that they had "preferential" treatment prevails in some circles.
Follow the link to read the full account of the treatment received by another British citizen whose case was raised in the House of Commons by his MP; Michael Cook did not have the "protection" afforded to the McCanns.
**Snip
There can be no greater evil than such a crime. I would not defend in any way a child murderer, but I will defend my constituent's right to a fair trial. My responsibility and my job tonight is to highlight the possibility that my constituent may be the victim of a gross miscarriage of justice. Some say that Cook is innocent ; some say that the police investigation was inadequate. Some say that the trial verdict was so lacking supporting evidence as to be incredible. Some say that Cook has been tortured and mistreated. Those are not questions which the House can or should decide. In truth, I do not know whether Cook is innocent or guilty. What I do know is that many questions are raised by the case which have the most serious implications, not only for Michael Cook, but for all British subjects travelling abroad.[/size]
Let us review some of the evidence. There was, understandably, immense local pressure to clear up this horrible crime. An unsolved child murder would frighten away tourists. An elderly Portuguese gardener said that he saw the murderer and the murder car. He said that the car was red with foreign plates. Cook had such a car. It was alleged that Cook's car tyre marks were found where the body was discovered, and on that prime tyre mark evidence Cook was arrested. It was claimed by the police that Cook had a child-molesting record and that he had confessed to the crime : they had their man. The public furore and the subsequent relief at Cook's arrest were surpassed only by the total outrage against him.
Let us examine the initial key facts. After nine months in gaol, Cook got two good lawyers and it was quickly discovered that the prime--indeed the only--hard evidence linking Cook to the murder was bogus. The tyre marks were of an entirely different type from those of Cook's car. It is also claimed that Cook's car does not have the ground clearance needed for the area where Rachel was found. Similarly, no confession was ever presented at the trial. It had been claimed by police that two officers heard the confession. One remembered it clearly ; the second denied all recollection of it. One would not expect to forget such a thing easily.
Cook appeared in court, with black eyes and a missing tooth, and he was deeply bruised. It is claimed that Cook was hung from an upstairs window by his feet, that his feet were beaten until he could not stand, that he was tied to a chair and beaten, that he was deprived of sleep, and that a revolver was forced into his mouth and the trigger pulled in a mock execution. Cook's lawyers were said to be pushing for the release of a television video report which
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allegedly showed police beating Cook. Those lawyers were involved in a tragic accident involving a front tyre blow-out which, incidentally, it is claimed has never been properly investigated by the police. In that untimely accident, Dr. da Silva was killed and Dr. Coelho was severely injured.
What of the final piece of the early evidence--Cook's record as a child molester? It too is quite bogus. At the trial, the police tried to rescue some credibility on the point. An officer said that Cook had been seen abusing a child a few weeks before Rachel's murder. One might wonder why that was not mentioned at the time. Nevertheless, the judge asked the officer how he knew that. The officer replied that someone, unnamed, had told him. The judge accepted that so-called "evidence" as clear and unequivocal. I must inform the House that I know of no evidence that Cook has ever posed any threat to children.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199293/cmhansrd/1992-06-09/Debate-20.html
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Exactly as you say Carana, the British authorities were very well aware of what the Drs McCann were up against when Madeleine disappeared in Portugal.
There is no mystery about their concern ... the only mystery is why the word of a person with a criminal conviction for perjury that they had "preferential" treatment prevails in some circles.
Follow the link to read the full account of the treatment received by another British citizen whose case was raised in the House of Commons by his MP; Michael Cook did not have the "protection" afforded to the McCanns.
**Snip
There can be no greater evil than such a crime. I would not defend in any way a child murderer, but I will defend my constituent's right to a fair trial. My responsibility and my job tonight is to highlight the possibility that my constituent may be the victim of a gross miscarriage of justice. Some say that Cook is innocent ; some say that the police investigation was inadequate. Some say that the trial verdict was so lacking supporting evidence as to be incredible. Some say that Cook has been tortured and mistreated. Those are not questions which the House can or should decide. In truth, I do not know whether Cook is innocent or guilty. What I do know is that many questions are raised by the case which have the most serious implications, not only for Michael Cook, but for all British subjects travelling abroad.[/size]
Let us review some of the evidence. There was, understandably, immense local pressure to clear up this horrible crime. An unsolved child murder would frighten away tourists. An elderly Portuguese gardener said that he saw the murderer and the murder car. He said that the car was red with foreign plates. Cook had such a car. It was alleged that Cook's car tyre marks were found where the body was discovered, and on that prime tyre mark evidence Cook was arrested. It was claimed by the police that Cook had a child-molesting record and that he had confessed to the crime : they had their man. The public furore and the subsequent relief at Cook's arrest were surpassed only by the total outrage against him.
Let us examine the initial key facts. After nine months in gaol, Cook got two good lawyers and it was quickly discovered that the prime--indeed the only--hard evidence linking Cook to the murder was bogus. The tyre marks were of an entirely different type from those of Cook's car. It is also claimed that Cook's car does not have the ground clearance needed for the area where Rachel was found. Similarly, no confession was ever presented at the trial. It had been claimed by police that two officers heard the confession. One remembered it clearly ; the second denied all recollection of it. One would not expect to forget such a thing easily.
Cook appeared in court, with black eyes and a missing tooth, and he was deeply bruised. It is claimed that Cook was hung from an upstairs window by his feet, that his feet were beaten until he could not stand, that he was tied to a chair and beaten, that he was deprived of sleep, and that a revolver was forced into his mouth and the trigger pulled in a mock execution. Cook's lawyers were said to be pushing for the release of a television video report which
Column 283
allegedly showed police beating Cook. Those lawyers were involved in a tragic accident involving a front tyre blow-out which, incidentally, it is claimed has never been properly investigated by the police. In that untimely accident, Dr. da Silva was killed and Dr. Coelho was severely injured.
What of the final piece of the early evidence--Cook's record as a child molester? It too is quite bogus. At the trial, the police tried to rescue some credibility on the point. An officer said that Cook had been seen abusing a child a few weeks before Rachel's murder. One might wonder why that was not mentioned at the time. Nevertheless, the judge asked the officer how he knew that. The officer replied that someone, unnamed, had told him. The judge accepted that so-called "evidence" as clear and unequivocal. I must inform the House that I know of no evidence that Cook has ever posed any threat to children.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199293/cmhansrd/1992-06-09/Debate-20.html
Is this case really all you can come up with to prove your claim of Portuguese police brutality ? Does one case 25 YEARS ago really prove to you that beating up suspects is endemic within the PJ ?
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Is this case really all you can come up with to prove your claim of Portuguese police brutality ? Does one case 25 YEARS ago really prove to you that beating up suspects is endemic within the PJ ?
Virgolino Borges (2000)
Cipriano (2004).
Two women by a PSP officer... erm, yesterday.
11.02.2015 10:33 Agente da PSP acusada de agressões e tortura de duas mulheres Polícia de 33 anos agrediu duas mulheres.
Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/agente_da_psp_acusada_de_agressoes_e_tortura_de_duas_mulheres.html
It happens in many countries. In true democracies, such cases are exposed, in theory...
I'm glad for Portuguese citizens that such cases are no longer being swept under the carpet of judicial secrecy or criminal defamation if, in fact, they are true.
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Virgolino Borges (2000)
Cipriano (2004).
Two women by a PSP officer... erm, yesterday.
11.02.2015 10:33 Agente da PSP acusada de agressões e tortura de duas mulheres Polícia de 33 anos agrediu duas mulheres.
Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/agente_da_psp_acusada_de_agressoes_e_tortura_de_duas_mulheres.html (http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/agente_da_psp_acusada_de_agressoes_e_tortura_de_duas_mulheres.html)
It happens in many countries. In true democracies, such cases are exposed, in theory...
I'm glad for Portuguese citizens that such cases are no longer being swept under the carpet of judicial secrecy or criminal defamation if, in fact, they are true.
Not good reading
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/portugal/report-2013
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Virgolino Borges (2000)
Cipriano (2004).
Two women by a PSP officer... erm, yesterday.
11.02.2015 10:33 Agente da PSP acusada de agressões e tortura de duas mulheres Polícia de 33 anos agrediu duas mulheres.
Ler mais em: http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/nacional/portugal/detalhe/agente_da_psp_acusada_de_agressoes_e_tortura_de_duas_mulheres.html
It happens in many countries. In true democracies, such cases are exposed, in theory...
I'm glad for Portuguese citizens that such cases are no longer being swept under the carpet of judicial secrecy or criminal defamation if, in fact, they are true.
As can be seen from the fact that Tavares de Almeida was tried and convicted and other recent cases in Portugal when officers of the law who had committed criminal offences were similarly convicted shows there is a determined effort going ahead in Portugal to root out the bad apples.
I have no idea what the statistics say, but a brief search will reveal that the authorities in Portugal have an uphill task in front of them in addressing brutality which appears to be endemic.
Although the detainee did not offer resistance, he was physically assaulted by the police even when held on the floor by the officers. There was a large number of witnesses present at the scene, who protested with indignation against the behaviour of the officers. Yet the police continued to threaten residents and bystanders with physical violence, persecuting them with batons and firing rubber bullets. A woman hanging her laundry in the balcony was hit by three rubber bullets and had to receive treatment in hospital
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/briefings/11358-racist-police-violence-in-portugal--8-february-2015
14 June 2013
15-year-old Musso Borges died as a result of injuries allegedly caused by violence perpetrated by Portuguese police officers. The case has shaken the Cape Verdean community in Amadora, a large suburb of Portuguese capital Lisbon. According to accusations from the “Ghetto Platform,” the death brings the number of poor, black youths killed at the hands of the Portuguese police to 15. Borges’ friends and relatives are calling for justice.
http://www.asemana.publ.cv/spip.php?article89070
It does happen far more frequently than it should ... but sometimes it backfires as can be seen here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jagvYIMJyzU#t=88
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As I have seen my earlier posts deleted, YET AGAIN.
Where has it been established ANYWHERE, that any of the people mentioned acted illegally in this case ?
Answers on a post card. 8)-)))
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As can be seen from the fact that Tavares de Almeida was tried and convicted and other recent cases in Portugal when officers of the law who had committed criminal offences were similarly convicted shows there is a determined effort going ahead in Portugal to root out the bad apples.
I have no idea what the statistics say, but a brief search will reveal that the authorities in Portugal have an uphill task in front of them in addressing brutality which appears to be endemic.
Although the detainee did not offer resistance, he was physically assaulted by the police even when held on the floor by the officers. There was a large number of witnesses present at the scene, who protested with indignation against the behaviour of the officers. Yet the police continued to threaten residents and bystanders with physical violence, persecuting them with batons and firing rubber bullets. A woman hanging her laundry in the balcony was hit by three rubber bullets and had to receive treatment in hospital
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/briefings/11358-racist-police-violence-in-portugal--8-february-2015
14 June 2013
15-year-old Musso Borges died as a result of injuries allegedly caused by violence perpetrated by Portuguese police officers. The case has shaken the Cape Verdean community in Amadora, a large suburb of Portuguese capital Lisbon. According to accusations from the “Ghetto Platform,” the death brings the number of poor, black youths killed at the hands of the Portuguese police to 15. Borges’ friends and relatives are calling for justice.
http://www.asemana.publ.cv/spip.php?article89070
It does happen far more frequently than it should ... but sometimes it backfires as can be seen here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jagvYIMJyzU#t=88
This really upsets me. And yes, I would be as equally upset if it was happening in UK.
But it is endemic in Portugal. No wonder The British Embassy were so quick to get there. They knew all about this. And it was only some two and a half years since Leonor Cipriano had been beaten.
British or Portuguese, I don't care which. But now we see that it is still going on. Who is going to holler about this for ordinary Portuguese people?
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On Topic, Please. Off Topic rubbish and verbal punch ups will be deleted.
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As I have seen my earlier posts deleted, YET AGAIN.
Where has it been established ANYWHERE, that any of the people mentioned acted illegally in this case ?
Answers on a post card. 8)-)))
Prevention is a wonderful thing... almost as wonderful as hindsight.
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'But it is endemic in Portugal.'
HOW MANY CASES ARE THERE IN PORTUGAL ?
HOW MANY CASES ARE THERE IN THE UK?
HOW ABOUT FRANCE ?
etc.
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'But it is endemic in Portugal.'
HOW MANY CASES ARE THERE IN PORTUGAL ?
HOW MANY CASES ARE THERE IN THE UK?
HOW ABOUT FRANCE ?
etc.
Do you really need to shout? I'd already said that such things occur everywhere.
My point is that more media attention is finally being paid to brutality or injustices against ordinary Portuguese citizens, perhaps partially as a result of the media / diplomatic attention to the McCann case and the perceived "injustice" against Portuguese citizens.
Do you have a problem with that?
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Do you really need to shout? I'd already said that such things occur everywhere.
My point is that more media attention is finally being paid to brutality or injustices against ordinary Portuguese citizens, perhaps partially as a result of the media / diplomatic attention to the McCann case and the perceived "inustice" against Portuguese citizens.
Do you have a problem with that?
That was not shouting.
I was making a point.
Now what about police brutality figures, racism, etc., in the UK........................
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That was not shouting.
I was making a point.
Now what about police brutality figures, racism, etc., in the UK........................
Feel free to quote recent statistics, including cases referred to the national equivalent of the IPCC and the outcome within Europe or any other continent of your choosing.
I have no particular view, aside from a thumbs-up to the Portuguese for progressively greater transparency.
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What about relative percentages of cases in both countries ?
As to cases...................
Google them.
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Do you really need to shout? I'd already said that such things occur everywhere.
My point is that more media attention is finally being paid to brutality or injustices against ordinary Portuguese citizens, perhaps partially as a result of the media / diplomatic attention to the McCann case and the perceived "injustice" against Portuguese citizens.
Do you have a problem with that?
It was the massive media/diplomatic attention focused on Portugal in 2007 that makes the suggestion of any imagined extrajudicial threat to the McCanns very silly indeed.
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It was the massive media/diplomatic attention focused on Portugal in 2007 that makes the suggestion of any imagined extrajudicial threat to the McCanns very silly indeed.
Imagined? Witnesses and Suspects getting beaten up by The PJ. Nothing imagined about that.
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People are continually using the obvious unpreparedness of the Portuguese police for that massive media and diplomatic attention (a phenomenon not unique to Portugal - we've seen it many times in the UK in recent years) as evidence that they never did any policing.
That's not an accusation Madeleine's family themselves have made (and the files are full of evidence of police activity) so you have to wonder why people keep making it? &%+((£
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Do you think the confusion of the first police to arrive on the scene is unique to Portugal?
This is a specific Thread about Tavares de Almeida and a Torture Conviction. Please stick to The Topic.
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This Thread was sanctioned by Admin. Take it up with him.
Now, back On Topic.
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How helpful would it have been to the investigation if the TDA & associates had used brutality to obtain a (false?) confession out of, say, Malinka, Murat or A N Other in the glare of UK & world media?
Would the sceptics have been satisfied with such a result, especially if Madeleine's whereabouts remained as unknown as Joana's?
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The title is: The Tavares de Almeida torture conviction and its relevance to the case of Madeleine McCann.
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Tell me Anna or Eleanor, what does this man have to do with Madeleine's disappearance ?
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Tell me Anna or Eleanor, what does this man have to do with Madeleine's disappearance ?
He's a bad egg and therefore there must be some relevance appears to be the sum total of it mate.
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Tell me Anna or Eleanor, what does this man have to do with Madeleine's disappearance ?
Did he not work on the case, Stephen?
I am sure that you know as much, if not more than I, about the case and those who worked on it.
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Who ever said that he had anything to do with her disappearance?
The relevance, if any, would be indirect, as I tried to point out earlier.
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Did he not work on the case, Stephen?
I am sure that you know as much, if not more than I, about the case and those who worked on it.
Didn't he write the interim report Anna?
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He's a bad egg and therefore there must be some relevance appears to be the sum total of it mate.
Sorry, Lyall, I didn't understand that.
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Didn't he write the interim report Anna?
I believe he did DCI. Was that just before he went on leave?
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Didn't he write the interim report Anna?
Yes. Or at least he signed it.
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Sorry, Lyall, I didn't understand that.
The thread was started in October 2013 but nobody has produced any evidence there's any relevance.
It's just been a queue of people saying: we don't like the bloke.
I think that's a given, but it's not a thread.
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The thread was started in October 2013 but nobody has produced any evidence there's any relevance.
It's just been a queue of people saying: we don't like the bloke.
I think that's a given, but it's not a thread.
He was connected to the case along with many others from McCanns connections also. That makes them of interest in the case of Madeleine, Lyall. And as you said another bad egg.....
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He was connected to the case along with many others from McCanns connections also. That makes them of interest in the case of Madeleine, Lyall. And as you said another bad egg.....
But the question posed by the thread title has already been answered if nobody has produced evidence of relevance in 18 months.
And answered also in the Summers and Swan book I reckon.
No relevance &%&£(+
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I believe he did DCI. Was that just before he went on leave?
Yes, How convenient the date was too.
The interim report of Tavares de Almeida of the Portuguese Police, 10 September 2007
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Didn't he write the interim report Anna?
The man has relevance to the case of course - he was a part of the team or teams working on the case - but his conviction doesn't.
So the thread title should be changed at least.
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He was connected to the case along with many others from McCanns connections also. That makes them of interest in the case of Madeleine, Lyall. And as you said another bad egg.....
That does not mean there was any connection to torture in this case.
It is called clutching at straws.
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But the question posed by the thread title has already been answered if nobody has produced evidence of relevance in 18 months.
And answered also in the Summers and Swan book I reckon.
No relevance &%&£(+
He wrote, or at least signed, the police report produced just after the McCanns had been made arguidos.
Read it quietly sometime, Lyall...
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The thread was started in October 2013 but nobody has produced any evidence there's any relevance.
It's just been a queue of people saying: we don't like the bloke.
I think that's a given, but it's not a thread.
So you don't think the fact that the lead investigator and his 2nd in command (Tavares) have been proved to be bent coppers who were abusing their positions of trust as policemen even before the McCann case - is of any relevance to the McCann case itself - and we should ignore it?
I've heard it all now.
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So you don't think the fact that the lead investigator and his 2nd in command (Tavares) have been proved to be bent coppers who were abusing their positions of trust as policemen even before the McCann case - is of any relevance to the McCann case itself - and we should ignore it?
I've heard it all now.
So what is the relevance? 8**8:/: What are you accusing them of doing?
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So you don't think the fact that the lead investigator and his 2nd in command (Tavares) have been proved to be bent coppers who were abusing their positions of trust as policemen even before the McCann case - is of any relevance to the McCann case itself - and we should ignore it?
I've heard it all now.
Amaral was the coordinator.
Not an investigator.
it is only certain people who wish to link torture to this case and it has become truly pathetic.
How about starting a thread on Redwood and his 'achievements' in this and other cases he has been involved with ?
Now that would be interesting.
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Back on topic please
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Amaral was the coordinator.
Not an investigator.
it is only certain people who wish to link torture to this case and it has become truly pathetic.
How about starting a thread on Redwood and his 'achievements' in this and other cases he has been involved with ?
Now that would be interesting.
Malinka claimed he was beaten up during his interrogation on 16/5/07. Interviewed as a witness, he had no lawyer present. Is that not relevant?
Amaral was the person responsible for putting all the pieces of evidence together in the correct order to solve case. He instructed his team - or he was instrumental in ensuring orders from higher echelons were carried out.
Your attempts to shift the focus onto Redwood's achievements merely highlight the obvious - the only justice you are prepared to accept is the conviction of the McCanns, rightly or wrongly.
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Malinka claimed he was beaten up during his interrogation on 16/5/07. Interviewed as a witness, he had no lawyer present. Is that not relevant?
Amaral was the person responsible for putting all the pieces of evidence together in the correct order to solve case. He instructed his team - or he was instrumental in ensuring orders from higher echelons were carried out.
Your attempts to shift the focus onto Redwood's achievements merely highlight the obvious - the only justice you are prepared to accept is the conviction of the McCanns, rightly or wrongly.
No actually, all this thread has done is to highlight the desperation of mccann supporters, and try and take attention from their failure at the trial in Portugal.
and do try to remember, i know this is difficult for you to admit, that most of his colleagues thought the same as well.
Well, I've initiated a thread on Redwood, now let's see if surfaces.
P.S. Is there anything to back up Malinka's claim ?
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No actually, all this thread has done is to highlight the desperation of mccann supporters, and try and take attention from their failure at the trial in Portugal.
and do try to remember, i know this is difficult for you to admit, that most of his colleagues thought the same as well.
Well, I've initiated a thread on Redwood, now let's see if surfaces.
Are you saying that most of Amaral's colleagues supported his hypothesis too? I didn't quite get that impression when they spoke at the libel trial.
It must have escaped your notice that several of those recently questioned also publicly seemed to believe in the abduction theory (laundryman & his "man under the stairs", gardenerman & the note, RM to name but 3).
Please do not confuse the libel case with the investigation. Whether or not the McCanns are awarded damages as a result of THAT ex-cop's despicable actions is almost immaterial imo - finding Madeleine is what matters to anyone who is a true McCann "supporter".
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Are you saying that most of Amaral's colleagues supported his hypothesis too? I didn't quite get that impression when they spoke at the libel trial.
It must have escaped your notice that several of those recently questioned also publicly seemed to believe in the abduction theory (laundryman & his "man under the stairs", gardenerman & the note, RM to name but 3).
Please do not confuse the libel case with the investigation. Whether or not the McCanns are awarded damages as a result of THAT ex-cop's despicable actions is almost immaterial imo - finding Madeleine is what matters to anyone who is a true McCann "supporter".
'Despicable ex-cop' ??
Were you at the libel trial ?
Where of course the mccanns failed on multiple levels to prove their case.
Tut,tut.
What about the 'despicable parents' who placed their children in unnecessary danger ??
and where poignantly, where do you think Madeleine will be found ??
Is it where Edgar stated, 'in a lawless village 10 miles from PDL' ?
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http://newsoutlines.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/police-beat-me-up-james-wickham-22.html
22 September 2007
Daily Star
James Wickham
RUSSIAN computer expert Sergei Malinka last night alleged that police investigating Madeleine's disappearance beat him up. He was questioned because of his links to British ex-pat Robert Murat, 33, who was named as an official suspect earlier in the inquiry. Malinka, 22, claimed an officer assaulted him during his interrogation. He said: "The state has the power and the duty to investigate crimes and their eventual suspects.
"What it cannot do is commit abuses." Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the Madeleine inquiry, has already been accused of faking documents and assaulting the mother of a missing Portuguese girl in separate case. A police insider said of Malinka's interview: "Amaral confined himself to making threats, but did not become physically violent."
------------------------------------------------------------
Many of the Malinka articles are no longer online.
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http://newsoutlines.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/police-beat-me-up-james-wickham-22.html
22 September 2007
Daily Star
James Wickham
RUSSIAN computer expert Sergei Malinka last night alleged that police investigating Madeleine's disappearance beat him up. He was questioned because of his links to British ex-pat Robert Murat, 33, who was named as an official suspect earlier in the inquiry. Malinka, 22, claimed an officer assaulted him during his interrogation. He said: "The state has the power and the duty to investigate crimes and their eventual suspects.
"What it cannot do is commit abuses." Goncalo Amaral, the police chief leading the Madeleine inquiry, has already been accused of faking documents and assaulting the mother of a missing Portuguese girl in separate case. A police insider said of Malinka's interview: "Amaral confined himself to making threats, but did not become physically violent."
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Many of the Malinka articles are no longer online.
'alleged'.
Key word.
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'Despicable ex-cop' ??
Were you at the libel trial ?
Where of course the mccanns failed on multiple levels to prove their case.
Tut,tut.
What about the 'despicable parents' who placed their children in unnecessary danger ??
and where poignantly, where do you think Madeleine will be found ??
Is it where Edgar stated, 'in a lawless village 10 miles from PDL' ?
Your devout worship of the despicable ex-cop is only exceeded by your contempt for innocent parents who only did what hundreds of other parents have done & continue to do. That you favour an institution which prefers torturing suspects to solve a case
rather than the correct path to justice almost beggars belief on a justice forum
The libel trial is what it is, 5 years down the line. There will be no winner.
Where is Madeleine? Follow the money.
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'alleged'.
Key word.
Reporter language. Interpret as you will, suing not an option.
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Your devout worship of the despicable ex-cop is only exceeded by your contempt for innocent parents who only did what hundreds of other parents have done & continue to do. That you favour an institution which prefers torturing suspects to solve a case
rather than the correct path to justice almost beggars belief on a justice forum
The libel trial is what it is, 5 years down the line. There will be no winner.
Where is Madeleine? Follow the money.
Now where have heard that phrase before about Amaral ? 8)-)))
Madeleine's parents are responsible for what they did in leaving their children unprotected and unsafe.
As to following the money, well you got that right.
The McCann's have being doing that from the beginning. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
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Off topic posts will be deleted, so please try and stay with the topic of the thread. Thank you
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Now where have heard that phrase before about Amaral ? 8)-)))
Madeleine's parents are responsible for what they did in leaving their children unprotected and unsafe.
As to following the money, well you got that right.
The McCann's have being doing that from the beginning. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
I take it from your response you'd have been quite happy for TdA & his team to have tortured a confession out of the first available fall-guy. Of course, in the sceptics world, that would have been the McCanns fault too.
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I'm waiting for you to display at least an equal level of contempt for the PJ officers, who use torture to "solve" crime, as you do for the McCanns & their "neglect".
But then, I do live in Fantasyland. 8(*(
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I'm waiting for you to display at least an equal level of contempt for the PJ officers, who use torture to "solve" crime, as you do for the McCanns & their "neglect".
But then, I do live in Fantasyland. 8(*(
If any police officer has been proven to use torture to solve a crime then he deserves to be called to account but that didn't happen in this case. None of the three arguidos were maltreated and we have only a Daily Star article which contains no direct quotes from Malinka with which to substantiate the ' torture' claim.
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If any police officer has been proven to use torture to solve a crime then he deserves to be called to account but that didn't happen in this case. None of the three arguidos were maltreated and we have only a Daily Star article which contains no direct quotes from Malinka with which to substantiate the ' torture' claim.
All 3 arguidos had lawyers with them during their interviews.
Malinka was only interviewed as a witness & didn't have a lawyer.
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All 3 arguidos had lawyers with them during their interviews.
Malinka was only interviewed as a witness & didn't have a lawyer.
So do you have a direct quote from Malinka accusing the PJ of maltreating him ?
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So do you have a direct quote from Malinka accusing the PJ of maltreating him ?
No. Just as most of the contents of statements contained in the PJ files online cannot be classed as direct quotes.
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No. Just as most of the contents of statements contained in the PJ files online cannot be classed as direct quotes.
The statements in the files are signed by the witnesses as a true record of what they said.
I'm afraid a Daily Star article does not have to conform to the same rigid procedure.
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No. Just as most of the contents of statements contained in the PJ files online cannot be classed as direct quotes.
Possibly why the McCanns and Operation Grange are using professionally translated from the original documents; a necessity when one considers the differing expertise and bias of the original volunteer translators.
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Possibly why the McCanns and Operation Grange are using professionally translated from the original documents; a necessity when one considers the differing expertise and bias of the original volunteer translators.
It's unfortunate that most of the faithful are little Englanders with little knowledge of languages other than their own or they could have translated the files for themselves and therefore guaranteed their accuracy.
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Possibly why the McCanns and Operation Grange are using professionally translated from the original documents; a necessity when one considers the differing expertise and bias of the original volunteer translators.
Exactly. Witness to interpreter, to man clunking on typewriter, back to interpreter, back to witness. Signature required.
That's a direct quote in the world of the sceptics.
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Possibly why the McCanns and Operation Grange are using professionally translated from the original documents; a necessity when one considers the differing expertise and bias of the original volunteer translators.
Being a bear of very little brain I become confused and need to have things explained in words of one syllable.
Are you suggesting that the McCanns and The Met had documents relating to the Tavares de Almeida torture conviction translated professionally?
That is the topic of this thread after all.
Why would they do that?
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Exactly. Witness to interpreter, to man clunking on typewriter, back to interpreter, back to witness. Signature required.
That's a direct quote in the world of the sceptics.
The statements were not verbatim.
The British rogatory statements giving a record of question and answer are as different as night and day; and an audio or video record helps too.
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It's unfortunate that most of the faithful are little Englanders with little knowledge of languages other than their own or they could have translated the files for themselves and therefore guaranteed their accuracy.
GCE's in Portuguese weren't an option when I was at school. I doubt that many schools have the option now either.
Foresight is a wonderful ability to have - rather like hindsight.
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Being a bear of very little brain I become confused and need to have things explained in words of one syllable.
Are you suggesting that the McCanns and The Met had documents relating to the Tavares de Almeida torture conviction translated professionally?
That is the topic of this thread after all.
Why would they do that?
Fear not ... the mods will sort us out in due course as you no doubt can attest considering the amount of OT you are prone to.
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Fear not ... the mods will sort us out in due course as you no doubt can attest considering the amount of OT you are prone to.
True but the ones where I really do hit the mark are left standing 8(0(*
Well it is only play when all is said and done and I just love OT especially at time and a half and double bubble on Sundays.
(I apologise Anna but my baser instincts will out on occasion).
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GCE's in Portuguese weren't an option when I was at school. I doubt that many schools have the option now either.
Foresight is a wonderful ability to have - rather like hindsight.
So no Portuguese speakers among the McCanns millions of supporters then ?
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So no Portuguese speakers among the McCanns millions of supporters then ?
No idea, Faithlilly. I'm a lone operator.
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No idea, Faithlilly. I'm a lone operator.
Of course you are Misy 8**8:/:
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Of course you are Misy 8**8:/:
There are a few sceptics on here who know I am %£&)**#
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I'm waiting for you to display at least an equal level of contempt for the PJ officers, who use torture to "solve" crime, as you do for the McCanns & their "neglect".
But then, I do live in Fantasyland. 8(*(
Well you clearly have been spending time in fantasyland.
I have done that before on this forum.
No excuse for torture.
From whhatewver police force uses it.
However, are you that naive to think any potential torturer gives a monkeys what people think on here ?
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So what is the relevance? 8**8:/: What are you accusing them of doing?
Trying to frame the McCanns - Kate in particular. imo.
Their main aim IMO - as shown in previous cases was to get a conviction - one way or another. Whether the person THEY decided was guilty was actually guilty or not - was not important IMO.
They were crooked policemen - who approved of torture as a means of 'solving' a case. How anyone can defend policemen with that mindset is beyond my comprehension. Corrupt policemen are the lowest of the low IMO.
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Trying to frame the McCanns - Kate in particular. imo.
Their main aim IMO - as shown in previous cases was to get a conviction - one way or another. Whether the person THEY decided was guilty was actually guilty or not - was not important IMO.
They were crooked policemen - who approved of torture as a means of 'solving' a case. How anyone can defend policemen with that mindset is beyond my comprehension. Corrupt policemen are the lowest of the low IMO.
Ah, the old framing myth.
Rolled out far too many times.
Boring.
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Trying to frame the McCanns - Kate in particular. imo.
Their main aim IMO - as shown in previous cases was to get a conviction - one way or another. Whether the person THEY decided was guilty was actually guilty or not - was not important IMO.
They were crooked policemen - who approved of torture as a means of 'solving' a case. How anyone can defend policemen with that mindset is beyond my comprehension. Corrupt policemen are the lowest of the low IMO.
Eddie also alerted to Adrian Prout. He later confessed after pleading he was innocent all along. You don't fool the dogs. SY will end up at the same conclusion. New forensics may provide them with the evidence they need to finally put this case to bed.
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Eddie also alerted to Adrian Prout. He later confessed after pleading he was innocent all along. You don't fool the dogs. SY will end up at the same conclusion. New forensics may provide them with the evidence they need to finally put this case to bed.
I have no idea what relevance your above post has to my post about corrupt policemen who think using torture to 'solve' a case is an acceptable part of policework.
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"The McCanns knew that I was going to catch them", 20 October 2008
Moita Flores interviews Gonçalo Amaral TV Guia (no online link, appears in paper edition only)
Interview: 02 October 2008, Published: Satruday 18 October 2008
Thanks to 'astro' for translation
Interesting snippet about PJ old-guard mentality:
MF – Things were different in my time. She would have been under such an attack that before she realised anything, she'd be in jail.
GA – Right, but in your time, in our old times, investigation was made with fuel. Now we all move on honey. Apart from that, this is a process that is uncomfortable for everyone. Nicely archived, nice and quiet, that's how it looks better. Everyone was happy.
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"The McCanns knew that I was going to catch them", 20 October 2008
Moita Flores interviews Gonçalo Amaral TV Guia (no online link, appears in paper edition only)
Interview: 02 October 2008, Published: Satruday 18 October 2008
Thanks to 'astro' for translation
Interesting snippet about PJ old-guard mentality:
MF – Things were different in my time. She would have been under such an attack that before she realised anything, she'd be in jail.
GA – Right, but in your time, in our old times, investigation was made with fuel. Now we all move on honey. Apart from that, this is a process that is uncomfortable for everyone. Nicely archived, nice and quiet, that's how it looks better. Everyone was happy.
I suspect the PJ were much like the UK police at that time.
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It's unfortunate that most of the faithful are little Englanders with little knowledge of languages other than their own or they could have translated the files for themselves and therefore guaranteed their accuracy.
*&*%£ Isn't it fortunate however that virtually all "sceptics" are men and women of such high standing, intelligence and linguistic ability that each has been able to read the files in their original language without recourse once to google translate. you only have to look at the 20 or so thousand geniuses (genii?) on the biggest "sceptic" facebook page to see how blessed are their number. @)(++(*
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*&*%£ Isn't it fortunate however that virtually all "sceptics" are men and women of such high standing, intelligence and linguistic ability that each has been able to read the files in their original language without recourse once to google translate. you only have to look at the 20 or so thousand geniuses (genii?) on the biggest "sceptic" facebook page to see how blessed are their number. @)(++(*
Nothing compared to the loonies and the second comments in myth land. 8)--))
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Nothing compared to the loonies and the second comments in myth land. 8)--))
Could you translate that into Portuguese please, My Stephenese is a bit rusty.
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Could you translate that into Portuguese please, My Stephenese is a bit rusty.
As is your Portuguese it would seem @)(++(*
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Could you translate that into Portuguese please, My Stephenese is a bit rusty.
You know full well which forum of the second comers I'm referring to. 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))
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You know full well which forum of the second comers I'm referring to. 8)--)) 8)--)) 8)--))
What has this got to do with The Thread Title?
Stay On Topic, Please.