Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Benice on August 29, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
Title: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Benice on August 29, 2013, 08:23:25 AM
I'm not sure if you mean Anne's original post, or my response. But, although I have huge misgivings about the McCanns, especially Gerry, I struggle when people make light of a situation that is every parents' worst nightmare. No wonder that you all feel so strongly. I understand where Stephen is coming from....basically, whatever happened to Madeleine is ultimately due to her parents. I'm sure that they weren't responsible for her death, but they WERE responsible for her loss. I also struggle with the fact that they seem to jump on the media bandwagon at every opportunity. Personally, I don't think that I would cope with the loss of a child as they did. And it breaks my heart that Kerry Needham never had the help, and high profile attention that the McCanns seem to milk at every opportunity. This is how I feel, nothing will change my mind, this is where I'm at. I'm sure they wouldn't have left their cash and jewellery on a bed for anyone to steal. And yes, I know that is not an original thought.
It's hardly the McCanns fault that Kerry Needham's Ben didn't have the same attention as Madeleine.
IMO If the internet had been as prolific back then as it has been since Madeleine was abducted, Kerry would have received exactly the same treatment as the McCanns and the [ censored word ]s and the downright nasty would have been making the same accusations about Ben's family as they do about Madeleline's.
After all Ben was left to wander around outside unsupervised. There was no evidence of an abduction and we only have the grandparents word for what happened, how long he was left on his own and that he was abducted. The 'sceptics' would have had a field day IMO.
After more than 20 years Kerry still hopes to be reunited with her son and is still looking for him. She is applauded for that. The McCanns have the same hope and after 6 years are also still searching for their daughter - but for some bizarre reason they are reviled and criticised for doing exactly the same. .
I believe both Ben and Madeleine were abducted and that the abductor is the criminal. Neither families deliberately put those children at risk - any more than Jamie Bulger's mother, or April Jones, or Sarah Paynes families did - and yet only the McCanns have been singled out as being wholly responsible for what happened to their child - and never the evil monster who abducted her. I find that totally incomprehensible.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2013, 09:05:36 AM
It's hardly the McCanns fault that Kerry Needham's Ben didn't have the same attention as Madeleine.
IMO If the internet had been as prolific back then as it has been since Madeleine was abducted, Kerry would have received exactly the same treatment as the McCanns and the [ censored word ]s and the downright nasty would have been making the same accusations about Ben's family as they do about Madeleline's.
After all Ben was left to wander around outside unsupervised. There was no evidence of an abduction and we only have the grandparents word for what happened, how long he was left on his own and that he was abducted. The 'sceptics' would have had a field day IMO.
After more than 20 years Kerry still hopes to be reunited with her son and is still looking for him. She is applauded for that. The McCanns have the same hope and after 6 years are also still searching for their daughter - but for some bizarre reason they are reviled and criticised for doing exactly the same. .
I believe both Ben and Madeleine were abducted and that the abductor is the criminal. Neither families deliberately put those children at risk - any more than Jamie Bulger's mother, or April Jones, or Sarah Paynes families did - and yet only the McCanns have been singled out as being wholly responsible for what happened to their child - and never the evil monster who abducted her. I find that totally incomprehensible.
What you can't comprehend or accept is the irresponsibility demonstrated by 2 parents who should have known better. As you are more than well aware these two placed socializing in front of child safety for several nights in a row,etc.
Ben disappeared on a beach whilst the grandparents attention was diverted.
There would be no better thing if I and others would be proved wrong and Madeleine was found alive, likewise Ben.
What would your attitude be if it was proved there was no abduction and the Mccanns made it all up ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:10:06 AM
What you can't comprehend or accept is the irresponsibility demonstrated by 2 parents who should have known better. As you are more than well aware these two placed socializing in front of child safety for several nights in a row,etc.
Ben disappeared on a beach whilst the grandparents attention was diverted.
There would be no better thing if I and others would be proved wrong and Madeleine was found alive, likewise Ben.
What would your attitude be if it was proved there was no abduction and the Mccanns made it all up ?
They went for their meal Stephen within the grounds of the aparthotel they werre staying at. Almost like their back garden. They were in sight of the apartment at only about 50 metres away. They could see the patio doors and the steps up. The trees and bushes had just been cut back. They were within hailing distance.
To remind you, I have personal experience of this distance, as my back garden was 50 metres long and we never had a problam if our children yelled us from the house. A mother hears the sound of her own child above all else.
The back of the building was overlooked by the tapas group. There was a light on in the sitting room. The moment anyone had entered that sitting room, they would have been immediately visible to the tapas group. The movement of shape against light would have been very noticeable in such a generally dark vista.
Bundleman didn't go in by the patio door because of this sitting room light and being overlooked. We can say that with almost 100% certainty and it is on record that Amaral said that too..
No-one could expect someone to enter a locked apartment, which The Mccanns believed the front to be. Moreover, nobody would dream, at that time that their child would be stolen from her bed.
In retrospect they made a mistake, but it is a very human one ... and they were improving on the listening systems that were available all around the World before Madeleines disappearance. These had been standard practice at anything from Butlins up to very smart hotels. But since Madeleine was abducted is no longer used.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Benice on August 29, 2013, 10:12:41 AM
What you can't comprehend or accept is the irresponsibility demonstrated by 2 parents who should have known better. As you are more than well aware these two placed socializing in front of child safety for several nights in a row,etc.
Ben disappeared on a beach whilst the grandparents attention was diverted.
There would be no better thing if I and others would be proved wrong and Madeleine was found alive, likewise Ben.
What would your attitude be if it was proved there was no abduction and the Mccanns made it all up ?
Not true. Ben disappeared from outside his grandparents farmhouse whilst they were inside. There was no proof of an abduction. Surely in your book that means the family are to be suspected of foul play and a cover up? If not why not?
If it was proved that the McCanns 'made it all up' then I would say lock them up and throw away the key.
However logic, reason and common sense tells me that SY are right to eliminate them from their enquiries as they have the skills and expertise, the professionally translated files and access to information/people which ordinary members of the public such as yourself do not have. So who is more likely to be right about what happened to Madeleine on 3rd May - you or SY?
It's a 'no brainer' really isn't it Stephen unless of course you can explain why it is the professional detectives at SY who have got it all so wrong and not yourself.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:23:09 AM
They went for their meal Stephen within the grounds of the aparthotel they werre staying at. Almost like their back garden. They were in sight of the apartment at only about 50 metres away. They could see the patio doors and the steps up. The trees and bushes had just been cut back. They were within hailing distance.
To remind you, I have personal experience of this distance, as my back garden was 50 metres long and we never had a problam if our children yelled us from the house. A mother hears the sound of her own child above all else.
The back of the building was overlooked by the tapas group. There was a light on in the sitting room. The moment anyone had entered that sitting room, they would have been immediately visible to the tapas group. The movement of shape against light would have been very noticeable in such a generally dark vista.
Bundleman didn't go in by the patio door because of this sitting room light and being overlooked. We can say that with almost 100% certainty and it is on record that Amaral said that too..
No-one could expect someone to enter a locked apartment, which The Mccanns believed the front to be. Moreover, nobody would dream, at that time that their child would be stolen from her bed.
In retrospect they made a mistake, but it is a very human one ... and they were improving on the listening systems that were available all around the World before Madeleines disappearance. These had been standard practice at anything from Butlins up to very smart hotels. But since Madeleine was abducted is no longer used.
Does KM say the patio doors were visible from the restaurant in her book?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:23:35 AM
It's hardly the McCanns fault that Kerry Needham's Ben didn't have the same attention as Madeleine.
IMO If the internet had been as prolific back then as it has been since Madeleine was abducted, Kerry would have received exactly the same treatment as the McCanns and the [ censored word ]s and the downright nasty would have been making the same accusations about Ben's family as they do about Madeleline's.
After all Ben was left to wander around outside unsupervised. There was no evidence of an abduction and we only have the grandparents word for what happened, how long he was left on his own and that he was abducted. The 'sceptics' would have had a field day IMO.
After more than 20 years Kerry still hopes to be reunited with her son and is still looking for him. She is applauded for that. The McCanns have the same hope and after 6 years are also still searching for their daughter - but for some bizarre reason they are reviled and criticised for doing exactly the same. .
I believe both Ben and Madeleine were abducted and that the abductor is the criminal. Neither families deliberately put those children at risk - any more than Jamie Bulger's mother, or April Jones, or Sarah Paynes families did - and yet only the McCanns have been singled out as being wholly responsible for what happened to their child - and never the evil monster who abducted her. I find that totally incomprehensible.
It's to do with jealousies of The Mccanns partially, and largely to do with Amarals disinformation "package" undermining The Mccanns, reviling The Mccanns and also the tapas group.
Deliberate disinformation like that against Leonor Cipriano <<<< altho the disinformation about her hit unbelievable levels of cruelty.
And someone was whipping the fervour up, winding people up in quite an organised way, imo. I wondere if it was the same peeps as those dropping red herrings everywhere to waste not only the time of the Mccanns team but also the fund money. No money left and they cant search properly.
Very good post Benice
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:25:17 AM
Not true. Ben disappeared from outside his grandparents farmhouse whilst they were inside. There was no proof of an abduction. Surely in your book that means the family are to be suspected of foul play and a cover up? If not why not?
If it was proved that the McCanns 'made it all up' then I would say lock them up and throw away the key.
However logic, reason and common sense tells me that SY are right to eliminate them from their enquiries as they have the skills and expertise, the professionally translated files and access to information/people which ordinary members of the public such as yourself do not have. So who is more likely to be right about what happened to Madeleine on 3rd May - you or SY?
It's a 'no brainer' really isn't it Stephen unless of course you can explain why it is the professional detectives at SY who have got it all so wrong and not yourself.
So stephen? Are you cleverer than SYard?
Benice, you hit the nail on the head every time. Well done kiddo !
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:30:27 AM
Collins says "absolutely not visible".
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: AnneGuedes on August 29, 2013, 10:35:47 AM
The top of the window could eventually be seen by someone standing outside of the plastic cover, but, ceiling height being 2,80m (norm in Portugal), nobody entering, except for a giant, could be spotted.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2013, 10:41:00 AM
I have no idea, but I have been there and had a meal there and I know they were End of.
And I have also been thee and dispute what you say.
You say the foliage had just been cut back, how do you know that ? You say the patio area and the steps to the patio could be seen from the tapas. Firstly how could you possibly know what the foliage was like on that night and secondly the steps are impossible to see from the tapas.
You are attempting to mislead people who have never been to PDL sadie, that is not fair.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:57:58 AM
And I have also been thee and dispute what you say.
You say the foliage had just been cut back, how do you know that ? You say the patio area and the steps to the patio could be seen from the tapas. Firstly how could you possibly know what the foliage was like on that night and secondly the steps are impossible to see from the tapas.
You are attempting to mislead people who have never been to PDL sadie, that is not fair.
You can't get more irrational than ignoring the contents of Madeleine's parents own book can you.
And also ignoring the contents of the documentaries made in 2007-9 supporting them - none of which claimed what she's claiming.
Sadie ignores the lot. It's dodgy dossier building out of control spin.
Only she knows why 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2013, 10:58:54 AM
It's to do with jealousies of The Mccanns partially, and largely to do with Amarals disinformation "package" undermining The Mccanns, reviling The Mccanns and also the tapas group.
Deliberate disinformation like that against Leonor Cipriano <<<< altho the disinformation about her hit unbelievable levels of cruelty.
And someone was whipping the fervour up, winding people up in quite an organised way, imo. I wondere if it was the same peeps as those dropping red herrings everywhere to waste not only the time of the Mccanns team but also the fund money. No money left and they cant search properly.
Very good post Benice
Jealousy of the Mccanns. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 11:11:02 AM
All the bushes had just been cut back at the time of the abduction. Greenery grows extraordinarily fast in the western Algarve. Rain from the west and warmth. When did this Collins go and look, what was the state of the greenery and exactly where did he look from?
This photo was unfortunately taken when the greenery had grown, so it does not illustrate the Mccanns view as favourably as it was.
The photograph is taken from immediately outside the patio door to 5A. You will see a swimming pool. The two buildings with picture windows and immediately behind that pool are the tapas outside restaurant.
We sat in the LH building but in the RH half. We looked across the pool at 5A and could see virtually the whole patio window, top to bottom and side to side..
The Mccanns sat about 2 or 3 metres to the west of us, (meaning to the right of us in the photo), somewhere behind what looks like slim tree trunks. With the foliage newly cut back, as it was then, (from contemporary photos at the abduction time), they would have seen most of the patio window and most of the steps up.
The internet and the media are misreporting the views. The photos stored in such sites as the Mccannfiles are mainly taken from the wrong place and give a very distorted view.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2013, 11:35:23 AM
All the bushes had just been cut back at the time of the abduction. Greenery grows extraordinarily fast in the western Algarve. Rain from the west and warmth. When did this Collins go and look, what was the state of the greenery and exactly where did he look from?
This photo was unfortunately taken when the greenery had grown, so it does not illustrate the Mccanns view as favourably as it was.
The photograph is taken from immediately outside the patio door to 5A. You will see a swimming pool. The two buildings with picture windows and immediately behind that pool are the tapas outside restaurant.
We sat in the LH building but in the RH half. We looked across the pool at 5A and could see virtually the whole patio window, top to bottom and side to side..
The Mccanns sat about 2 or 3 metres to the west of us, (meaning to the right of us in the photo), somewhere behind what looks like slim tree trunks. With the foliage newly cut back, as it was then, (from contemporary photos at the abduction time), they would have seen most of the patio window and most of the steps up.
The internet and the media are misreporting the views. The photos stored in such sites as the Mccannfiles are mainly taken from the wrong place and give a very distorted view.
I will ask again sadie. How do you know that the foliage had just been cut back at the time of Madeleine's disappearance ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 29, 2013, 06:00:58 PM
This was the view someone standing in the tapas bar had of the McCanns apartment in daylight. Now just imagine what it would be like in darkness and looking through a plastic screen.
(http://i.imgur.com/aQ6Q93A.jpg)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2013, 06:03:42 PM
This was the view someone standing in the tapas bar had of the McCanns apartment in daylight. Now just imagine what it would be like in darkness and looking through a plastic screen.
(http://i.imgur.com/aQ6Q93A.jpg)
Exactly John and to imagine anyone at that distance, and with the noise within the tapas bar, could hear a child call for them is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 09:44:36 PM
The top of the window could eventually be seen by someone standing outside of the plastic cover, but, ceiling height being 2,80m (norm in Portugal), nobody entering, except for a giant, could be spotted.
I think this illustrates it rather well, altho the foliage had grown at this time.
This photograph was taken from outside the patio windows. It is easy to understand what the Mccanns could see. When we were there the foliage must have been fairly recently trimmed as when Madeleine was taken
The building with the picture windows immediately on the other side of the pool is the outside tapas. It is in two adjoining halves as you can see. We sat in the LH half behind the pool so towards the middle of the combined structure. We had a near perfect view of the side (for Faith) of the stairs and of the patio doors. Although some of the view was thru the railings, we could still see the patio doors virtually from top to bottom and from side to side.
The Mccanns sat in the RH half of the structure, somewhere behind the slim tree trunks that you can see. The big table was positioned there. They must have been two or three metres further west than we were, but as you can see, even tho the greenery needed pruning in this photo they still could see quite well. With the greenery pruned right back as it had been on May 3rd they would have had a very good view.
I think you, Anne and Faith, must either have been sitting in the main tapas bar which is further west ... or else the foliage must have been very overgrown. Greenery grows astoundingly quickly in western Portugal. Rain comes in over the Atlantic and it is warm. Nice climate.
===============================
This is a soon-after contemporary photograph of the foliage at the time of the abduction Some may remember Gerry commenting later on the fact that the view had changed because the foliage had grown.
The photo was taken from the "watchers" balcony. Policeman in position. Bushes are cut back. I think somewhere in the files it comments about gardeners in their garden working whilst the Mccanns were there. But not sure. Can anyone remember?
There is another photo somewhere which I cannot find. That shows the bushes even more shorn, especially the round one.
With bushes cut back, there would be a much better view than in the upper picture shown. Yes they could see most of the patio doors and steps up.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 29, 2013, 09:52:09 PM
Lets face it Sadie, anyone sitting in the tapas bar with background music humming and people chattering would never hear anything that was happening outside. The McCanns were effectively blind and deaf to anything that was going on in that apartment.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 09:56:54 PM
This was the view someone standing in the tapas bar had of the McCanns apartment in daylight. Now just imagine what it would be like in darkness and looking through a plastic screen.
(http://i.imgur.com/aQ6Q93A.jpg)
This was NOT the view they had John.
This photograph is taken from the Tapas bar NOT the Tapas open air restaurant. It is taken from about 15 metres further away to the west. It is an unfair picture as it gives incorrect information. There are literally dozens of pictures on the internet that give incorrect information and this is one of them
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 09:58:05 PM
Lets face it Sadie, anyone sitting in the tapas bar with background music humming and people chattering would never hear anything that was happening outside. The McCanns were effectively blind and deaf to anything that was going on in that apartment.
I dont think you are right John. I dont recall any music
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:05:02 PM
Lets face it Sadie, anyone sitting in the tapas bar with background music humming and people chattering would never hear anything that was happening outside. The McCanns were effectively blind and deaf to anything that was going on in that apartment.
Despite the poorly developed photograph that you posted earlier, there was some light, directly from the street lamp opposite 5A and that cast light onto the patio itself. Also had anyone gone in or out thru that patio door, they would have stood out like a sore thumb against the sitting room light.
Amaral himself has said that npbody would go in, or out, that way, cos at only 50 metres away it was too close to the parents and tapas group.... and overlooked by them
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:07:11 PM
Despite the poorly developed photograph that you posted earlier, there was some light, directly from the street lamp opposite 5A and that cast light onto the patio itself. Also had anyone gone in or out thru that patio door, they would have stood out like a sore thumb against the sitting room light.
Amaral himself has said that npbody would go in, or out, that way, cos at only 50 metres away it was too close to the parents and tapas group.... and overlooked by them
Are you forgetting that somebody says he did go in, at 9.30?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:10:22 PM
So little concern nobody mentions seeing him go in or come out in their statements do they >@@(*&)
Perhaps because they couldn't?
Of course they could.
You have seen this photograph taken from outside the patio windows of 5A. Hopefully you have read everything about it and the various points of interest.
Lyall, if you can see the one way, then you can see the reverse way... and 5A patio was well illuminated by the street lamp right opposite.
Only animals dont understand that. You understand it OK ... Dontcha ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:29:33 PM
You have seen this photograph taken from outside the patio windows of 5A. Hopefully you have read everything about it and the various points of interest.
Lyall, if you can see the one way, then you can see the reverse way... and 5A patio was well illuminated by the street lamp right opposite.
Only animals dont understand that. You understand it OK ... Dontcha ?
So why does nobody mention it in their statements? A child goes missing... police, family back home - and rest of the world - are told a door was left unlocked, but it occurs to nobody to say "actually we could see that door from where we were dining"?
Credible?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:35:18 PM
So why does nobody mention it in their statements? A child goes missing... police, family back home - and rest of the world - are told a door was left unlocked, but it occurs to nobody to say "actually we could see that door from where we were dining"?
Credible?
It is correct. You can check it from the photos. They could see those patio doors from where they dined, but not as good a view as we had. You only have to look at the view from 5A balcony to realise what I am saying is correct ... oh and remember the street lamp.
As several of us have pointed out, statements will never cover every detail ... never. They would be miles long if they did.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:40:35 PM
It's the most crucial detail, but nobody mentions it? Nah. Not credible. Their view wasn't good enough to see anything.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:43:16 PM
Even in the half light, the plastic windows give a decent image thru them. If you can see that detail when looking in, then you would see similar detail looking out, especially at a lit spot as 5A clearly was, thanks to the street light.
Amaral was right on this one. No-one would risk going into 5A when it was so close, so well illuminated and the parents were so near.
Almost 100%, bundleman neither entered, nor left via the patio doors.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:49:06 PM
I suggest you take it up with KM then, because in the book she says it's possible.
Maybe you need to read it again? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 10:51:10 PM
It's the most crucial detail, but nobody mentions it? Nah. Not credible. Their view wasn't good enough to see anything.
It is in the various statements that they could see Apartment 5A at about 50 metres away. Sorry, I am not wading thru them for you. You either believe me ... or you dont
Tis up to you.
But I will tell you something Lyall. Almost all the images you see of 5A supposedly from where Gerry and Kate sat ... are from nowhere near where Kate and Gerrry sat. They are pure misinformation and some might even be disinformation.
They should not be allowed to stay up on the internet, putting out false information.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
You keep dodging my point. Their book doesn't support what you are claiming.
Why are you insisting you know better than Madeleine's parents?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 11:11:15 PM
Mr Oldfield's May 10th statement:
"Nevertheless, he admits that it was a tenuous sight considering the distance to the apartments (estimated as about 50 to 100 metres), and further, due to their vision being impaired by a transparent oilcloth [tarpaulin] that covered the area in which the tables were located.
Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block."
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2013, 11:13:40 PM
"Nevertheless, he admits that it was a tenuous sight considering the distance to the apartments (estimated as about 50 to 100 metres), and further, due to their vision being impaired by a transparent oilcloth [tarpaulin] that covered the area in which the tables were located.
Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block."
Thank you Lyall, that's what I was looking for.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 11:29:18 PM
You keep dodging my point. Their book doesn't support what you are claiming.
Why are you insisting you know better than Madeleine's parents?
Lyall. I know that the patio doors and steps could be seen from where Kate and Gerry sat. The evidence is in the photo of the view from the patio doors. Better still, I have been there.
I also knw that kate, in her efforts to be totally fair has made at least one mistake in her book. Seems she has listened to other people and has taken on board what other peeps were saying about the distance of 5A from the tapas restaurant.
We who can use Google Earth know that it is only abouit 50 metres crow flies and less than 80 metres walking, yet she has used a much higher figure for the disatnce. I cant remember the exact distance she said but seems she listened to all the [ censored word] and took their distance on board.
Kate Mccann is absolutely honest. There is no doubt about it.
If she hasn't analysed the situation as I have ... and in her desperately destraught state it is quite possible she hasn't, then once again she might have taken on board what others are saying.
Now, How do you account for Amaral saying that no abductor would have gone in via the patio doors cos the tapas group were too close and it was so overlooked by them, he wouldn't dare risk it ?
Dont you believe Amarals words ? Do you think that you know more than Amaral ?
Have you even been there or is this just an attack on me for fun ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 11:44:10 PM
It's discussion, not attack. If you want to be free to publish your theories in isolation, better do it on a blog or in a book - but if you do it on a forum people will challenge you.
Where does Mr Amaral say this? It doesn't sound likely.
Do you have an explanation for the words of Mr Oldfield, which conflict with your own?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 29, 2013, 11:44:42 PM
No I've never been to Portugal.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 29, 2013, 11:48:18 PM
It's discussion, not attack. If you want to be free to publish your theories in isolation, better do it on a blog or in a book - but if you do it on a forum people will challenge you.
Where does Mr Amaral say this? It doesn't sound likely.
Do you have an explanation for the words of Mr Oldfield, which conflict with your own?
This isn't my theory Lyall. This is fact. You can see the visibility yourself. You can see the bushes cut back. You can see what happens when looking thru the transparent window of the tapas outdoor restaurant. It is not as clear as glass but it ain't at all bad.
You KNOW the distances. Obviously Matt didn't and had little comprehension of distances ... same as Kate.
The other apartments were more vulnerable than 5A because they didn't have a street light immediately outside. Now they were at risk of break in via the patio doors at the back, cos unlike 5A, they were in darkness.
And that is the main reason probably why none of them used the shorter route via the back gate as Kate and Gerry did. The risk of burglars to their darkened property. Also, the dark alleyway to walk along .... not nice at night especially for the women.
Amarals piece, that you are asking for, was in his statement when he was trying to prove that no abductor could have got in, so therefor Madeleine died in 5A. It was much publicised at the time, but once a few of us had analysed it and proved him wrong, he dropped it ... and seems it has now been whooshed.
Would be glad if anyone could dig it out.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 30, 2013, 12:38:22 AM
That doesn't deal with what Mr Oldfield said in his statement. He is the witness, not yourself - he was there on the night.
"a tenuous sight"
And would nine people enjoying a relaxing meal and conversation together really keep their eyes constantly on whatever they could see of their apartments in any case? Unlikely.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 01:12:53 AM
That doesn't deal with what Mr Oldfield said in his statement. He is the witness, not yourself - he was there on the night.
"a tenuous sight"
And would nine people enjoying a relaxing meal and conversation together really keep their eyes constantly on whatever they could see of their apartments in any case? Unlikely.
My thoughts are in blue. Lyalls words in black.
The evidence of what can be seen through that plastic sheeting is shown again below (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tapasrestaurantnight.jpg)
Asked, he relates that, from where that table was positioned the group would have sight of the apartments they were occupying. [ie. he is talking about the Tapas groups apartments generally. Not the Mccanns apartment in particular. Most of the apartments were on an unlit alleyway; the Mccanns was fairly well lit, so was different]
#Nevertheless, he admits that it was a tenuous sight [yep, most were unlit so they would have presented a tenuous sight] considering the distance to the apartments (estimated as about 50 to 100 metres) [Well we all know that it was about 50 metres and not 100 metres] and further, due to their vision being impaired by a transparent oilcloth [tarpaulin] that covered the area in which the tables were located.
[We have all seen just how much the plastic windows obstructed vision ... and in the case of a lit appartment, like 5A, the group would have been able to see anyone going in or out. Maybe not so with the unlit apartments ... dunno]
Now Lyall, you will have to excuse me. I am going to bed
Good night.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 30, 2013, 04:45:34 AM
What is the point of this thread?
Hasn't it long been established that it is extremely unlikely for the abductor to have entered through the patio doors?
We can argue about the varying degrees of bad visibility from the tapas, but the bottom line is that the abductor would not have wanted to take the risk, however small it may have been, of being seen.
We all agree that the McCann's made a mistake in leaving their children. The kind of mistake that many parents used to make - once upon a time in a safer world - and one which, thanks to this situation, few make now.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 06:51:35 AM
Admin, I would be very happy for you to lock this thread if you wish. A lot of time and effort has gone into finding and reporting on various facts and photos.
Please do not delete it. THanks 8((()*/
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2013, 07:01:15 AM
The proverbial bottom line remains undiluted.
The Mccanns were inexcusable in what they did.
It was nighttime, visibility was poor, and anyone looking in that direction could see jack.
The group were intent on socializing with irregular, unsubstantiated independently verified checks on the children.
Interesting that some trust Amaral on some things, not on others.
Hypocrisy or what ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 09:01:51 AM
Sadie's contention that the street lamp adjacent to the McCann's apartment somehow shed light on the 5a patio is wrong and has been shown to be wrong in at least two other threads. The street light is not directly opposite the patio gate and steps, it only shines light on the first two lower steps, the upper steps and the patio itself are always shrouded in darkness. An intruder could at any time slip up those steps unseen from anyone watching from the Ocean Club gardens and tapas bar/restaurant.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 09:07:10 AM
But I have sadie and to the OC and I absolutely dispute your claims, as Matt Oldfield himself does, that all but the very top of the patio doors can be seen from the tapas.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 12:26:39 PM
Sadie's contention that the street lamp adjacent to the McCann's apartment somehow shed light on the 5a patio is wrong and has been shown to be wrong in at least two other threads. The street light is not directly opposite the patio gate and steps, it only shines light on the first two lower steps, the upper steps and the patio itself are always shrouded in darkness. An intruder could at any time slip up those steps unseen from anyone watching from the Ocean Club gardens and tapas bar/restaurant.
John, having re-examined the photos, I agree that only the lower steps are fully lit and as the steps are ascended the lighting reduces with shadow appearing on the apartment side. The Tapas side at the top still has some light acording to lines I have drawn on GE. I suggest you check it yourself
We also have to consider the arched hedging over the gate. It is not very deep when freshly trimmed but it will create a shadow over a small part of the steps. It looks like it is about 15" =18" deep / tall (height). I think you will understand what I am trying to explain by looking at the photo below
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/9dec7/SUN-6-12-7-P-APARTMENT_small.JPG)Photo: Thanks to Gerry mccanns blogs As for the patio
There are pictures illustrating that the street lamp very well lit the patio area of 5A. The light streams in through the arched window from the lamp, which is directly opposite that window. This illuminates virtually the full patio area to 5A as can be seen from the photo The previous lamp was less powerful than the current one. I dont know when this photo was taken. (upper photo), but it seems that it must have been soon after the abduction cos it is attributed to Amarals book.
Bundleman would have had to walk thru this lit area.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AG/Extras_do_livro_Page_5_small.jpg) Photo:Thanks to Goncalo Amarals book
I am sorry the images are so small. I dont know how to make them bigger
I must also apologise. I truly do not have the time to keep finding things to try and illustrate my point. Lots going on at home at present. Will pop in when I can.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2013, 12:32:00 PM
There is a picture somewhere on the forum showing the few steps lit at the bottom. I will try and find it.
There is no guarantee the street light was even working on the 3/4 May 2007.
No problem for Bundleman in any event as he just walked in the dark shaded front door.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 12:33:36 PM
But I have sadie and to the OC and I absolutely dispute your claims, as Matt Oldfield himself does, that all but the very top of the patio doors can be seen from the tapas.
No, he doesn't. Read it again. He is talking about the apartments in general which were NOT lit by a street lamp.
The evidence of the clarity of vision thru the plastic windows is posted in sadie post about 6 or 7 posts back. I will repeat it especially for you.
Hasn't it long been established that it is extremely unlikely for the abductor to have entered through the patio doors?
We can argue about the varying degrees of bad visibility from the tapas, but the bottom line is that the abductor would not have wanted to take the risk, however small it may have been, of being seen.
We all agree that the McCann's made a mistake in leaving their children. The kind of mistake that many parents used to make - once upon a time in a safer world - and one which, thanks to this situation, few make now.
The point, and thread, matters because Sadie (and yourself also in the above post) continue to make claims that Madeleine's parents and their supporters do not make themselves.
The fact she doesn't recognise that reduces or even destroys any credibility her other theories may have.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2013, 12:42:50 PM
Please dont twist the evidence Faith ... as given in Matts statement and this image.
And this sadie :
' Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block."'
How am I twisting that evidence ? Please have the grace to admit you are wrong sadie.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
' Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block."'
How am I twisting that evidence ? Please have the grace to admit you are wrong sadie.
You haven't read what has been covered before. He was generalising. He was talking about all the apartments taken by the Tapas group. They were not lit by a street light and wouild have been very difficult to see.
THe Mccanns apartment, on the other hand, was bathed in light from the street lamp opposite.
A different scenario Faith.
Matts 10th May statement
Extract from Matts statement
Matts statement in blue. My comments in black
The question asked, he relates that, due to the large size of the whole group, comprising nine adults (four couple and FP's mother), the deponent and the others always occupied the same table because it was the only one that could handle so many people.
Asked, he relates that, from where that table was positioned the group would have sight of the apartments they were occupying. <<< a generalization
Nevertheless, he admits that it was a tenuous sight considering the distance to the apartments (estimated as about 50 to 100 metres), and further, due to their vision being impaired by a transparent oilcloth [tarpaulin] that covered the area in which the tables were located. <<< Again a generalization. We know that the distances were about 50 metres from G.Earth. On the photograph, we can see how much the plastic window affects the clarity of vision
Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block. <<< Very obviously a generalization again. With the flats of most of the group, in the blackness of night with no artificial light to help, it would have been very easy IMO. But flat 5A was a duifferent cuppa tea, cos it was quite well lit.
Even Amaral said that nobody would go in that way with the parents being so close and overlooking it. It is very clear that Matt is generalizing. No doubt it was because of this dark alleyway adjoining the back of their apartments, that none of the others in the group used their back patio doors. It would have been a burglars paradise, especially if had they left their patio door unlocked.
On the other hand, the Mccanns rear entrance was quite well lit ... and mainly in view
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2013, 02:43:17 PM
You haven't read what has been covered before. He was generalising. He was talking about all the apartments taken by the Tapas group. They were not lit by a street light and wouild have been very difficult to see.
THe Mccanns apartment, on the other hand, was bathed in light from the street lamp opposite.
A different scenario Faith.
Matts 10th May statement
Extract from Matts statement
Matts statement in blue. My comments in black
The question asked, he relates that, due to the large size of the whole group, comprising nine adults (four couple and FP's mother), the deponent and the others always occupied the same table because it was the only one that could handle so many people.
Asked, he relates that, from where that table was positioned the group would have sight of the apartments they were occupying. <<< a generalization
Nevertheless, he admits that it was a tenuous sight considering the distance to the apartments (estimated as about 50 to 100 metres), and further, due to their vision being impaired by a transparent oilcloth [tarpaulin] that covered the area in which the tables were located. <<< Again a generalization. We know that the distances were about 50 metres from G.Earth. On the photograph, we can see how much the plastic window affects the clarity of vision
Consequently, he admits it being possible for someone to have entered the ground-floor apartments without being detected, through [by way of] the patios that were round the back of the residential block. <<< Very obviously a generalization again. With the flats of most of the group, in the blackness of night with no artificial light to help, it would have been very easy IMO. But flat 5A was a duifferent cuppa tea, cos it was quite well lit.
Even Amaral said that nobody would go in that way with the parents being so close and overlooking it. It is very clear that Matt is generalizing. No doubt it was because of this dark alleyway adjoining the back of their apartments, that none of the others in the group used their back patio doors. It would have been a burglars paradise, especially if had they left their patio door unlocked.
On the other hand, the Mccanns rear entrance was quite well lit ... and mainly in view
If 5a had been a 'different cuppa tea' he would have said so. He didn't so we must take him at his word.
As to your faith in the word of Amaral, while refreshing that you put such store on his honesty and judgement, you seem to have nothing to prove he said any such thing about accessing the apartment.
Sadie to put it bluntly you can believe whatever makes you the most happy but to anyone looking at the evidence dispassionately, rather than shoehorning it in to suit a theory, it is obvious that the patio area of 5a could not be seen from the tapas.
BTW about that foliage having just been trimmed back at the time of Madeleine's disappearance, have you any other evidence apart from Gerry's word that this was the case ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 03:21:41 PM
Sadie, those plastic sheeted walls reflect the light and distort images so I can't see how anyone could possibly see anything through them from inside let alone a distance of 50 metres away?
I am processing some additional images taken from several videos at the moment so if you bear with me I will be posting the relevant ones which show the various locations being discussed on this thread at night and before the new brighter street lamp was fitted.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 05:00:28 PM
Sadie, those plastic sheeted walls reflect the light and distort images so I can't see how anyone could possibly see anything through them from inside let alone a distance of 50 metres away?
I am processing some additional images taken from several videos at the moment so if you bear with me I will be posting the relevant ones which show the various locations being discussed on this thread at night and before the new brighter street lamp was fitted.
Evening shots may not adequately show what could be seen, though, as any use of flash would reflect light. As long as they're kept clean, they really are transparent.
I'm not convinced that the Tapas group would necessarily have noticed anyone entering from the patio doors, during the course of an evening meal, although I find it plausible that it would have been considered as a risky entry point.
I have still never understood the lack of police attention to the potential key issue.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 05:11:00 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/EvfqecL.jpg)
View towards the tapas restaurant from apartment 5a.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 05:13:12 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/EeMJClt.jpg)
Night view of the tapas restaurant with plastic side screens. Notice how little you see through them?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Carana on August 30, 2013, 05:37:20 PM
I agree with Sadie that your earlier photo was from the Tapas Bar, not the Restaurant.
Isn't that what the caption said, Tapas Bar? 8(0(*
Your comment was this:
This was the view someone standing in the tapas bar had of the McCanns apartment in daylight. Now just imagine what it would be like in darkness and looking through a plastic screen. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2149.msg71320#msg71320
They weren't in the Tapas Bar, so that photo wasn't relevant. People do continue to get confused over this issue.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 06:05:41 PM
That's why I put up a photo of the Tapas Bar and the Tapas Restaurant to show that they are different entities. I will post a photo taken from the Tapas Restaurant shortly.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 06:56:03 PM
Sadie, those plastic sheeted walls reflect the light and distort images so I can't see how anyone could possibly see anything through them from inside let alone a distance of 50 metres away?
I am processing some additional images taken from several videos at the moment so if you bear with me I will be posting the relevant ones which show the various locations being discussed on this thread at night and before the new brighter street lamp was fitted.
I would be happy to see those John, but remember I have been there and experienced those plastic windows. Not glass but not bad at all.
The trouble with photographs of lighting is that according to how the photos have been developed so the contrast etc of the lighting can be altered. I believe an early photograph that you showed from between the tapas bar and the outside Tapas restaurant was such a photograph.. It was deliberately produced to give a much darker effect. Possibly the Amaral photograph that I have posted was deliberately brightened
And sadly, none of us can tell from the photograph alone
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 07:01:14 PM
I put up a photo earlier which showed the difference between the tapas bar and the tapas restaurant, the latter being where the McCanns dined with their friends on the night Maddie disappeared.
I came across this better image which I assume depicts the view from the apartment immediately above the McCanns.
The view actually appears to be obscured by a Yucca palm tree so I can only assume the view at the lower level is even worse.
(http://i.imgur.com/m0Y9mhi.jpg)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 30, 2013, 08:04:06 PM
and the view from apartment 5a itself...
(http://i.imgur.com/DWSTBWU.jpg)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 30, 2013, 11:42:17 PM
I put up a photo earlier which showed the difference between the tapas bar and the tapas restaurant, the latter being where the McCanns dined with their friends on the night Maddie disappeared.
I came across this better image which I assume depicts the view from the apartment immediately above the McCanns.
The view actually appears to be obscured by a Yucca palm tree so I can only assume the view at the lower level is even worse.
(http://i.imgur.com/m0Y9mhi.jpg)
Now I find this photo really interesting. Thank you for posting it John
Very obviously photographed from a place higher than 5A balcony and very obviously NOT photographed from in from in front of the patio door ... or above that.
This is photographed from above the extreme west of 5A (in other words from above Kate and Gerrys bedroom and near its western extremity) So it doesn't show what the view from in front of the sitting room patio window would be like.
What it does show is the bush shorn back. Everything grows so quickly out there. as you can see this view is on the opposite side of that bush
There was no Yucca tree in the way when we were there. The back of ground floor flat 5A is up all those steps, cos it is built in a hill ... so effectively it is first floor at the back. Atho there were shrubs between us and the flat, our view was over the top of these shrubs.
We keep returning to this image as being the only real guide i can find
(http://i.imgur.com/DWSTBWU.jpg) bearing in mind how the round bush had been shorn at the time
Thanks for finding that John
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 12:08:53 AM
View towards the tapas restaurant from apartment 5a.
Yeah, I like this one as well John. This photograph is not actually taken from 5A but, as you say, it is taken from that general direction and it shows the outdoor tapas restaurant very well.. The X marks the spot, where the tapas group sat, as far as we know ... roughly the middle of the table. We sat at the extreme left of this picture.
This illustrates beautifully how clear the image is thru that plastic window. It is not any old cheap stuff, but very good quality plastic. Very clear like glass when new ... maybe not so clear when old? Dunno?
Of course Ocean Club was designed by architect part owner George Crossland. No doubt he knew the best plastic to use
Thanks for this photo, as well The building on the right is the actual Tapas Bar. Most photographs are incorrectly taken from within there or even from the open grassed area at the RH side ... and they are pure misinformation flooding the internet, which unhappily many people have believed.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 12:39:30 AM
I think you will find this interesting John.
See the trees behind the Tapas bar and the trees in the left middle foreground. See how they have grown ? I think this photo must be a very recent one John.
The big whitish building in the background to the right of the Tapas Bar is the Staff Quarters. So many trees in front of it now that you can hardly see the building
(http://i.imgur.com/m0Y9mhi.jpg)
Compare to
(http://i.imgur.com/DWSTBWU.jpg)
No conifers there at all. Someone wanted something hidden pretty quickly by the look of things. Did they also want attention taken away from the Staff Quarters ? .... cos there was talk on the internet (?3A's) that someone at the staff quarters could have watched The Tapas 9 from there ... maybe with binoculars? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 31, 2013, 01:38:11 AM
I'm watching the 2007 Dispatches on Youtube, and the experts don't agree with you Sadie.
No conifers there at all. Someone wanted something hidden pretty quickly by the look of things. Did they also want attention taken away from the Staff Quarters ? .... cos there was talk on the internet (?3A's) that someone at the staff quarters could have watched The Tapas 9 from there ... maybe with binoculars? >@@(*&)
Very interesting what you are saying, Sadie, about the tapas perhaps being watched from the staff quarters.
I have often wondered if there was someone watching T9 from inside the restaurant, or near it, viewing the table.
This, logically, would have been the most efficient way of monitoring T9 on the night - if all T9 were seated, then the coast to enter 5A would be clear.
There are two problems with the suggestion that the tapas bar/ table was being closely watched, however:
1. A watcher/ watchers spending a lot of time nearby or posing as a diner/diners, would be recollected by staff and others and keenly sought as witnesses after the event. Therefore too dangerous to watch from the bar area itself.
2. Apparently the table was not being watched on the night of the abduction itself, even though this would have seemed a sensible thing to do - if done so from a less vulnerable spot than another table - because key members of T9, including Gerry himself, were absent from the table at the time the abductor(s) chose to enter the apartment.
Can one see into the tapas from SQ in any detail with binoculars? In the dark?
Even if so, this couldn't have been done on the night.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 31, 2013, 03:51:01 AM
The photo which the experts were using was taken from the tapas bar and not the tapas restaurant. Here again is the same photo taken slightly further back behind one of the wooden poles.
(http://i.imgur.com/0C8Jygq.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on August 31, 2013, 04:14:59 AM
In fact here is a still taken from the Martin Brunt Sky News clip which shows him seated in the tapas restaurant and the view to the apartment.
(http://i.imgur.com/ThmK8Zd.jpg)
Or view video from 1.22
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 31, 2013, 08:29:57 AM
It was dark.
Visibility poor.
The group were facing in the other direction according to some accounts.
So how the hell could anybody see what was happening at the apartments ?
Unless of course you believe in magic, have X-ray eyes which can also magnify images and see through solid objects, except Lead.
Even a man from Krypton would have difficulty in seeing the apartment.
Add to that the blatantly obvious, that could not know what is going on in the apartment, and with 3 young children, and as doctor's they would know this, skeletal tissue is developing, relatively soft and easily damaged, why would they leave them alone in an unlocked apartment, where a 'simple' accident could result in injury or death ?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Benice on August 31, 2013, 09:12:56 AM
The photo which the experts were using was taken from the tapas bar and not the tapas restaurant. Here again is the same photo taken slightly further back behind one of the wooden poles.
(http://i.imgur.com/0C8Jygq.jpg?1)
I don't think the McCanns have ever claimed that they would be able to see someone entering 5a via the patio door have they? IMO if that thought had ever crossed their minds they would not have left the door unlocked in the first place.
IMO the point they were trying to make was how close they were to the apartment especially in view of some of the distances that were being quoted at the time i.e. 100yards - 200yards! This photograph illustrates just how close they were - visually speaking.
The very fact that they were sitting opposite their own apartment block - and could see part of their own apartment would pyschologically give them a sense of security IMO. More so than if they were sitting much closer but in a place where they had no sight at all of 5a or the apartment block itself.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 31, 2013, 09:32:43 AM
I don't think the McCanns have ever claimed that they would be able to see someone entering 5a via the patio door have they? IMO if that thought had ever crossed their minds they would not have left the door unlocked in the first place.
No, they haven't. But Sadie does.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 31, 2013, 12:54:26 PM
Clearly the answer to the opening post is that only the top of the patio door could be seen from where the tapas 9 group were seated in the restaurant but little else. Certainly someone sneaking into the apartment by that route would not have been visible if they kept a low profile. Exit by the front door would then be very easy.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Carana on August 31, 2013, 01:40:10 PM
Clearly the answer to the opening post is that only the top of the patio door could be seen from where the tapas 9 group were seated in the restaurant but little else. Certainly someone sneaking into the apartment by that route would not have been visible if they kept a low profile. Exit by the front door would then be very easy.
I find that plausible as well. Providing that the door could actually be opened without a key from the inside, then there would have been no need for one.
A bit riskier than entering via the front door, though.
An issue with entering via the patio is: would someone close the two gates behind them as well as risk being seen?
Offhand, I can't remember if Matt was asked how he found the gates.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 31, 2013, 01:51:19 PM
If he was I've a good idea what his answer would have been.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 10:19:53 PM
It might be accidental, but the photo from your video is not even taken from the Tapas Bar let alone from the Tapas Outside Restaurant where the group sat. It is disinformation, a kind of false pretenses, cos it is from completely the wrong angle.
The group sat in the Tapas Outside Restaurant. Johns photo was from the Tapas Bar, which is an understandable mistake to make, but this photo is from even further west, not even from the Tapas Bar, it seems. It appears to be from the grassed area beyond, or even from the ?concrete pathway leading to the kiddies pool.
Very interesting what you are saying, Sadie, about the tapas perhaps being watched from the staff quarters.
I have often wondered if there was someone watching T9 from inside the restaurant, or near it, viewing the table.
This, logically, would have been the most efficient way of monitoring T9 on the night - if all T9 were seated, then the coast to enter 5A would be clear.
There are two problems with the suggestion that the tapas bar/ table was being closely watched, however:
1. A watcher/ watchers spending a lot of time nearby or posing as a diner/diners, would be recollected by staff and others and keenly sought as witnesses after the event. Therefore too dangerous to watch from the bar area itself.
2. Apparently the table was not being watched on the night of the abduction itself, even though this would have seemed a sensible thing to do - if done so from a less vulnerable spot than another table - because key members of T9, including Gerry himself, were absent from the table at the time the abductor(s) chose to enter the apartment.
Can one see into the tapas from SQ in any detail with binoculars? In the dark?
Even if so, this couldn't have been done on the night.
Personally I think it unlikely they were watched from the Staff Quarters.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on August 31, 2013, 10:38:49 PM
Personally I think it unlikely they were watched from the Staff Quarters.
Sorry, thought that was what you were getting at on a previous post. Must have misread.
I do think. however, it would have been a good idea to have been watching the tapas bar directly, somehow. If all T9 were seated, the Gerry/ Jez/ Jane scenario never would have taken place. Apparently no-one thought of that..
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 10:48:43 PM
In fact here is a still taken from the Martin Brunt Sky News clip which shows him seated in the tapas restaurant and the view to the apartment.
(http://i.imgur.com/ThmK8Zd.jpg)
Or view video from 1.22
Another irresponsible view in this video of the Outside Tapas Restaurant. In this case taken from a spot several apartments further west
The filming is very bad inside the Outside Tapas Restaurant, probably because of poor lighting inside. It is difficult to judge how much this might have altered the view outside.
I really resented Brunts intimation that Gerry was lying about the distance. You cannot compare the distance walked to a crow flies distance. And Gerry estimates were not so bad at IIRC 40 metres and 50 metres. Please correct me if I have those wrong
IIRC it was Matt who estimated 50 metres to 100 metres ... and someone else estimated 30 metres
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 31, 2013, 10:52:06 PM
It is a Channel Four video Sadie, not HideHo's 8(0(*
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on August 31, 2013, 11:00:00 PM
Sorry, thought that was what you were getting at on a previous post. Must have misread.
I do think. however, it would have been a good idea to have been watching the tapas bar directly, somehow. If all T9 were seated, the Gerry/ Jez/ Jane scenario never would have taken place. Apparently no-one thought of that..
I have always thought that another good place to watch was along the alleyway between the apartments and the gardens. Between the two blocks of flats there is a walkway down to that alleyway. Seemed a good spot to watch who was eating anyhow, cos the watcher could walk off inn a western, a northern or an eastern direction, if someone appeared.
Anyhow, I am leaving it there. It is taking up too much of my time... and my eyes are not good. Plenty to mull over.... anyway
ETA OK, Lyall, it can be Channel 4's, but Hoho chose to use it .... and it is disinformation. Full Stop !
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Lyall on August 31, 2013, 11:11:27 PM
@)(++(* You should watch the ones ITV produced in 2007.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Benice on September 01, 2013, 12:41:43 AM
I have always thought that another good place to watch was along the alleyway between the apartments and the gardens. Between the two blocks of flats there is a walkway down to that alleyway. Seemed a good spot to watch who was eating anyhow, cos the watcher could walk off inn a western, a northern or an eastern direction, if someone appeared.
Anyhow, I am leaving it there. It is taking up too much of my time... and my eyes are not good. Plenty to mull over.... anyway
ETA OK, Lyall, it can be Channel 4's, but Hoho chose to use it .... and it is disinformation. Full Stop !
I've always thought that the unoccupied apartment 5c - two doors down from the McCanns was a brilliant place from which to observe. Anyone in there could not only see across to the Tapas Restaurant from the back of the apartment, but also had a view of the carpark from the front bedroom window - and they were a few seconds walk away from the McCann's apartment. Two British ladies noticed a couple of men on the patio of 5C some time before Madeleine was abducted although it would appear that their notifications to the police of that were ignored. I wonder how much attention was paid to that apartment by the PJ. As far as I know no dogs were ever put in that apartment, or any forensics taken. I'm happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Luz on September 01, 2013, 03:15:05 AM
After all these years I hoped that everyone knew that every apartment of the Ocean Club complex and those in the vicinity (more than 400) were thoroughly searched, almost everyone in the village, with the exception of the foreigners that meanwhile had to go on with their lives in their countries, and no immediate reason to be retained, just left their identification and contact.
I doubt that if a foreign child disappeared in a British village so much effort would have been employed as there was in this case. Thousands of people were interrogated, hundreds of PJ inspectors were assigned to the investigation, the navy with their several valences, the airforce, the firefighters, civil protection, GNR, university laboratories and the best scientific researchers, ex.pats, portuguese citizens,...there was an "army" on the ground at sea and in the air during the first weeks. Whenever I read articles questioning the work that was made I feel furious.
How dare you?! There was a "battlefield" through which Mr and Mrs McCann kept on playing tennis and jogging, their parents, aunts, uncles and friends enjoying the warming sun of the Algarve and meanwhile giving interviews insulting the efforts made by those that cared... (sorry Adm)
Patio doors were not visible from the restaurant (as if that matters when you are behind a plastic protection that is not transparent enough to see the exterior), and the children's room were on the opposite side of the apartment...so, what is the importance of that?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on September 01, 2013, 04:00:23 AM
I doubt that if a foreign child disappeared in a British village so much effort would have been employed as there was in this case. Thousands of people were interrogated, hundreds of PJ inspectors were assigned to the investigation, the navy with their several valences, the airforce, the firefighters, civil protection, GNR, university laboratories and the best scientific researchers, ex.pats, portuguese citizens,...there was an "army" on the ground at sea and in the air during the first weeks. Whenever I read articles questioning the work that was made I feel furious.
Hello Luz, I agree with you that it is uncalled for to make sweeping, negative statements about a particular country or its justice system. It must be very trying reading such comments.
With regard to your suggestion that a foreign child in Britain would not receive as much police effort as Madeleine's case has in Portugal, I do however want to remind you of the 2001 case of a dead African boy found floating down the Thames in London.
To say that that case, concerning not a missing, blue eyed blond girl, but the unidentified, decapitated body of an African boy, was thoroughly investigated by the Metropolitan Police and Scotland Yard is an understatement.
Officers were sent across Europe; DNA experts to the Middle East; several trips made to various African countries to interview suspects and gather information from African universities; celebrities and politicians, including Nelson Mandela himself, employed by SY to assist. The investigation went on for several years - I believe until 2011 - no expense spared. I remember reading a few years ago that at one point it was calculated to be the most expensive case ever undertaken by the Metropolitan Police.
When British detectives met with with tribes people in West Africa to interview them - there is a youtube video of this somewhere - the locals could make head nor tail of why the British government would have cared to expend such effort and sums in the quest to establish the identity of a non-European national, already dead, and to find the perpetrators of the crime and punish them at the British taxpayer's expense.
In that case, there were no parents running marathons, courting wealthy benefactors, and pressuring government departments - the entire case revolved around the unknown identity of the victim - yet incredible efforts were made.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 01, 2013, 02:26:14 PM
A brill post Sherlock. If we had a post of the day I would nominate it. 8@??)(
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Joanne on September 01, 2013, 02:30:42 PM
Sherlock-Is this the case you meant? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Eb5Tpunj5s "Adam" is the name given to a young Nigerian boy whose torso was discovered in the River Thames, London on 21 September 2001. He is believed to have been between the ages of four and seven. The murder is believed to be linked to a ritual killing. Despite the use of forensic science, the Metropolitan Police Service have not caught the killer.
The torso was discovered on the afternoon of Friday, 21 September 2001, as it floated past the Tower of London towards Tower Bridge in Central London. A passer-by crossing the bridge had noticed an orange object in the water, and realising it was a body as it passed under the bridge, alerted the police. The Metropolitan Police sent its marine search unit to the scene, who recovered the torso further downstream. The body was found to be the torso of a young black child, the orange being a pair of shorts around the stumps of the legs. The discovery of the torso shocked police, and prompted massive media coverage in the United Kingdom and around the world. The police named the body Adam in the absence of any positive identification.
There have been considerable developments in the case since the investigation began.
Initial investigations Police soon realised after recovering only the torso, that the circumstances were unusual and not typical of a sex-related murder. It was initially suspected that the murder was a medicine murder. This type of killing involves the removal of body parts such as the ears or genitals. However Adam's genitals were not removed, and the police ruled out this theory. Post mortem editbeta]A post-mortem was carried out on Adam's remains. This established from the amount of British food in Adam's stomach and pollen in his lungs that he had only been in the United Kingdom for a few days. A potion that contained ingredients used in West African ritual magic was also discovered in his stomach. Nigerian link Adam's bones were also analysed to see if it could determine his geographical origins. As everything a person eats bears the trace of the soil of where it was grown or reared, soil samples were compared to places around the world. Scientists determined from this that Adam originated in Nigeria. Metropolitan police travelled to Nigeria and launched a campaign to track Adam's parents. Despite visiting elementary schools and looking at reported missing children in the region, there was no success. Linked cases In July 2002, a Nigerian woman arrived in the UK from Germany, claiming to have fled from a Yoruba cult that practised ritual murders. She claimed that they attempted to kill her son, and that she knew Adam was murdered in London by his parents. However, police searching her flat found orange shorts with the same clothing label as those found on Adam.
Surveillance of the woman's associates brought the police to another Nigerian, a man named Kingsley Ojo. Searching of Ojo's house found a series of ritual items, however none of the DNA on the items matched Adam's DNA. Ojo was charged with child trafficking offences and jailed for four years in 2004.
Developments in the case Progress on the case has been considerable given the lack of evidence and the existence of only Adam's torso. However, the lack of dental records or face imagery has been a major block to solving the crime. Still, Metropolitan police believe the publicity surrounding the case has acted as a deterrent for further ritual crimes in the UK.
The police also note that Adam would never have been found if his body had washed out into the North Sea, which would have occurred only two turns of the tide after his discovery.
On 29 March 2011, it was discovered that the torso belonged to that of 6-year old, Ikpomwosa, after a TV-Crew managed to track down a woman who used to care for him in Germany, due to his parents being deported back to Nigeria. Mother of two, Joyce Osiagede had told ITV London Tonight that she handed the 6-year old to a man—reportedly named Bawa, who proceeded to take the child to London. Detectives have said that this is a 'major breakthrough.
In 2012, the BBC was contacted by Joyce Osiagede who declared that she was prepared to tell them everything she knew about the boy. Osiagede revealed that the Adam's real name was in fact Patrick Erhabor and not Ikpomwosa. She also identified Bawa as Kingsley Ojo and said that she had wrongly identified a photograph that had been circulating in the press as Patrick when it was in fact of a friend's living son.
Another irresponsible view in this video of the Outside Tapas Restaurant. In this case taken from a spot several apartments further west
The filming is very bad inside the Outside Tapas Restaurant, probably because of poor lighting inside. It is difficult to judge how much this might have altered the view outside.
You are wrong yet again Sadie. Martin Brunt was sat at the very spot in the restaurant where the McCanns and their friends were seated. If you had bothered to look at the video you would have seen this.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on September 01, 2013, 04:06:51 PM
I've always thought that the unoccupied apartment 5c - two doors down from the McCanns was a brilliant place from which to observe. Anyone in there could not only see across to the Tapas Restaurant from the back of the apartment, but also had a view of the carpark from the front bedroom window - and they were a few seconds walk away from the McCann's apartment. Two British ladies noticed a couple of men on the patio of 5C some time before Madeleine was abducted although it would appear that their notifications to the police of that were ignored. I wonder how much attention was paid to that apartment by the PJ. As far as I know no dogs were ever put in that apartment, or any forensics taken. I'm happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong.
I am a bit doubtful about that Benice because I dont think that flat had a window on the car park side. I think that there was a lobby there and no outside wall to the North. The lobby that most of the front doors acme off and the stairs ran from, I think. I could be wrong tho and would be happy to be corrected.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on September 01, 2013, 04:51:53 PM
Hello Luz, I agree with you that it is uncalled for to make sweeping, negative statements about a particular country or its justice system. It must be very trying reading such comments.
With regard to your suggestion that a foreign child in Britain would not receive as much police effort as Madeleine's case has in Portugal, I do however want to remind you of the 2001 case of a dead African boy found floating down the Thames in London.
To say that that case, concerning not a missing, blue eyed blond girl, but the unidentified, decapitated body of an African boy, was thoroughly investigated by the Metropolitan Police and Scotland Yard is an understatement.
Officers were sent across Europe; DNA experts to the Middle East; several trips made to various African countries to interview suspects and gather information from African universities; celebrities and politicians, including Nelson Mandela himself, employed by SY to assist. The investigation went on for several years - I believe until 2011 - no expense spared. I remember reading a few years ago that at one point it was calculated to be the most expensive case ever undertaken by the Metropolitan Police.
When British detectives met with with tribes people in West Africa to interview them - there is a youtube video of this somewhere - the locals could make head nor tail of why the British government would have cared to expend such effort and sums in the quest to establish the identity of a non-European national, already dead, and to find the perpetrators of the crime and punish them at the British taxpayer's expense.
In that case, there were no parents running marathons, courting wealthy benefactors, and pressuring government departments - the entire case revolved around the unknown identity of the victim - yet incredible efforts were made.
Thank you for reminding us Sherlock. Good to know that SY pulled out all the stops there too.
Wonderful that Madeleines parents are still raising money for missing children, that influential people have backed them ... and that they have the best that they can muster, SY, looking for her .... and for the perp.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Brietta on November 13, 2014, 12:32:55 AM
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.
Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?
There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.
So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant? Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: misty on November 13, 2014, 12:39:53 AM
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.
Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?
There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.
So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant? Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?
Do you believe Madeleine even knew that her parents had left her & her siblings alone to sleep, let alone told her where they were eating?
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Brietta on November 13, 2014, 12:53:07 AM
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.
Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?
There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.
So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant? Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?
The risks of allowing children access to the balcony and of positioning furniture next to the railing are explained in one of the two safety stickers which were on the lounge balcony door I can post the text if you are interested.
But yes that would have been the only way (without going out onto the streets) to attract attention of adults at the tapas.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on November 13, 2014, 01:00:26 PM
There was a direct line of sight from the balcony to the tapas restaurant, it should be remembered that the bushes had just been trimmed.
Remind me … was it not just one of the theories to explain Eddies slight interest outside that Madeleine had stood on a chair and taken a tumble?
There doesn’t seem to be a problem with the notion that despite her mother’s opinion to the contrary, Madeleine had no bother opening the patio doors … closing the patio doors … opening the child gate … closing the child gate … opening the gate to the street … closing the gate to the street … and vanishing herself without screaming for her parents.
So what makes you think she would have been unable to move a chair, to stand on it and see her parents in the tapas restaurant? Perhaps you can prove categorically it is not a possibility?
There might have been a direct line of sight for the 50-60 or so metres but in the dark through plastic sheeting and with other people wandering around, I fear Sadie's claim that Madeleine could have seen them from the balcony is a stretch too far. In any event she didn't go out onto the balcony because the patio door was closed when Kate arrived at around 10pm. Madeleine probably went out the front door, a route she was familiar with having taken it every day to get to kids club. Once out possibly the door closed behind her...
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 13, 2014, 02:47:03 PM
There are clearly some strange ideas on here as to what a line of sight is.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 13, 2014, 03:06:54 PM
How tall do you think she was?
(http://i62.tinypic.com/34fyv6e.jpg)
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: sadie on November 13, 2014, 03:20:33 PM
The bushes were freshly clipped on May 3rd. so the * line of vision * was better. Here they have grown a little obscuring some.
Photo taken from in front of the patio windows. The Tapas restaurant is immediately behind the pool, the building with two very large picture windows.
The Mccanns and the group sat in the RH window, more or less behind what appears to be tree trunks. Despite looking further, the distance from the patio to the group is only 50 mettes.
A * Good line of vision * even for someone who likes to drive a Maserati Quattro Portes. 8(0(* 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 13, 2014, 03:46:51 PM
What height is that taken at? A lot higher than Maddy's eye line. And it's not taken in the dark!
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: Eleanor on November 13, 2014, 04:27:45 PM
What height is that taken at? A lot higher than Maddy's eye line. And it's not taken in the dark!
It is not taken in the dark, I appreciate that.
However Madeleine only had to stand on the low railing wall, which I bet she did occasionally and she would have seen her parents. She would probably hear them too. Gerry is loud and boistrous.
Title: Re: Can patio door be clearly seen from the tapas bar?
Post by: John on November 13, 2014, 05:59:38 PM
Not much chance of making anyone out in pitch darkness through plastic sheeting, Martin Brunt covered this some time ago in reverse. A child on the balcony might see and hear the tapas restaurant 50/60 metres away but little more. In any event Madeleine wasn't out on the balcony or Kate would have found the patio door slightly open when she did the 10pm check. The real reason why the patio door was left open was so that Madeleine could be heard should she get up and venture out onto the balcony. No doubt her parents were keeping an attentive ear open for her cries.