UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: stephen25000 on September 06, 2013, 07:45:41 AM
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For those who believe children can't wander off by themselves......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-23973542
Now if a 2 year old can wander off.....................
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Who believes children (aside from those without legs or too young to walk) can't wander off on their own?
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Who believes children (aside from those without legs or too young to walk) can't wander off on their own?
INCLUDING OF COURSE AN UNLOCKED APARTMENT..........................
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INCLUDING OF COURSE AN UNLOCKED APARTMENT..........................
If you bother to do a little basic research you'll discover why the McCanns discounted that possibility
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Who believes children (aside from those without legs or too young to walk) can't wander off on their own?
My friend's little boy walked out of reception class, and she found him sitting on the doorstep. He'd walked the whole length of the village, and when she rang the school they hadn't even missed him.
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If you bother to do a little basic research you'll discover why the McCanns discounted that possibility
Oh the Mccanns discounted that possibility, wow.
Since when have they been in charge of investigating Madeleine's disappearance ?
Now if the apartment was unlocked as they claim, she could have walked out.
Perhaps though, the apartment was locked all along. >@@(*&)
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From joao Carlos' final report:
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
Next?
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From joao Carlos' final report:
As a remote hypothesis, the possibility of the minor leaving the apartment by her own means was explored – that would be highly unlikely physically – and after, because of an accident or by a third person intervention, she would have disappeared.
Next?
Highly unlikely, does not mean it didn't happen.
The Mccanns claim the apartment was unlocked, so a child could open the door and walk out.............
Next please.
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Stephen, of course a child can open a door and walk out, you don't have to show a story in a newspaper to prove that, it is a well known fact.
The point is did Madeleine?
Did Madeleine open the patio doors, shut them behind her, open the safety gate, shut it behind her [at the top of the steps] or climb over it, at the top of the steps?
What about CC the toy she clutched when upset? surely she would have taken that with her?
Also there was the open window and shutter to consider.
I don't think Madeleine would have wandered out.
What if she did though? At the bottom of the steps, as a professional stated, she would have been drawn to the bright lights and noise of the Tapas Bar.
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One has to use some commonsense here, not just blanket dismissal of what the parents said. Commonsense says that it is HIGHLY unlikely that Madeleine woke and wandered, despite the patio door to the apartment being unlocked.
It is not necessary to go through these reasons again - it's an issue that has been discussed innumerable times on many forums over the last six years.
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Stephen, of course a child can open a door and walk out, you don't have to show a story in a newspaper to prove that, it is a well known fact.
The point is did Madeleine?
Did Madeleine open the patio doors, shut them behind her, open the safety gate, shut it behind her [at the top of the steps] or climb over it, at the top of the steps?
What about CC the toy she clutched when upset? surely she would have taken that with her?
Also there was the open window and shutter to consider.
I don't think Madeleine would have wandered out.
What if she did though? At the bottom of the steps, as a professional stated, she would have been drawn to the bright lights and noise of the Tapas Bar.
Open window and shutter. Not proven, but you know that.
How do you know Madeleine had this toy in her hands ?
That's pure supposition and irrelevant.
How do you know she just didn't walk out and leave the doors open ?
When children want to, they can be quite determined, especially in a panic/distressed.
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One has to use some commonsense here, not just blanket dismissal of what the parents said. Commonsense says that it is HIGHLY unlikely that Madeleine woke and wandered, despite the patio door to the apartment being unlocked.
It is not necessary to go through these reasons again - it's an issue that has been discussed innumerable times on many forums over the last six years.
Commonsense ?
You do not know the parents told the truth.
Explain to me logically, why it is unlikely Madeleine woke up and wandered off.
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Explain your reply 'how do you know Madeleine had this toy in her hands' ????
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Explain your reply 'how do you know Madeleine had this toy in her hands' ????
You referred to it.
I wouldn't have mentioned that.
It is irrelevant.
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Open window and shutter. Not proven, but you know that.
How do you know Madeleine had this toy in her hands ?
That's pure supposition and irrelevant.
How do you know she just didn't walk out and leave the doors open ?
When children want to, they can be quite determined, especially in a panic/distressed.
This is what Danny Collins thinks happened.
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This is what Danny Collins thinks happened.
Thanks for that Lyall.
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Thanks for that Lyall.
His book is interesting. It's the only one successfully published in the UK - he doesn't say much, but does make it clear he just doesn't believe the abduction from inside the apartment claim. And the book's still on sale (even with Amazon).
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His book is interesting. It's the only one successfully published in the UK - he doesn't say much, but does make it clear he just doesn't believe the abduction from inside the apartment claim. And the book's still on sale (even with Amazon).
Thanks, I'll have a look at that.
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His book is interesting. It's the only one successfully published in the UK - he doesn't say much, but does make it clear he just doesn't believe the abduction from inside the apartment claim. And the book's still on sale (even with Amazon).
So what does he believe happened to Madeleine Lyall?
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So what does he believe happened to Madeleine Lyall?
He thinks she left the apartment herself, and was abducted outside.
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His book was published in 2008, but he sticks to his theory even after publication of Kate's book.
There's a radio interview with him somewhere, in 2012 I think. I'll find the link.
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To give credence ... to the idea that Madeleine could have walked out on her own, you would have to accept that she had gone out the back way, pulling aside the living room curtains and drawing them again, then opening the patio door, the child safety gate at the top of the stairs on the veranda and the little gate to the road and carefully closing all three behind her
Kate McCann
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He thinks she left the apartment herself, and was abducted outside.
Gerry saw her at about 10 minutes or so past nine.
Jane saw a man crossing the road with a child at about fifteen minutes past nine.
Another check was done by a friend of the McCann's who went up the patio steps.
Then Kate finds Madeleine missing at about 10.
I can't imagine that Madeleine came down those steps in between all this going on and got abducted. In any case as the expert said she would have been drawn to the lights and noise of the Tapas bar.
It is more likely that the man Jane saw was the abductor.
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Gerry saw her at about 10 minutes or so past nine.
Jane saw a man crossing the road with a child at about fifteen minutes past nine.
Another check was done by a friend of the McCann's who went up the patio steps.
Then Kate finds Madeleine missing at about 10.
I can't imagine that Madeleine came down those steps in between all this going on and got abducted. In any case as the expert said she would have been drawn to the lights and noise of the Tapas bar.
It is more likely that the man Jane saw was the abductor.
You can't imagine Madeleine leaving herself and meeting her fate elsewhere "in between all this going on", yet you're content to believe someone managed to enter the apartment and take her in the same time period?
I'm not content to take that option.
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Here's Mr Collins, speaking in 2012.
http://tunein.com/topic/?topicId=38351661 (http://tunein.com/topic/?topicId=38351661)
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You can't imagine Madeleine leaving herself and meeting her fate elsewhere "in between all this going on", yet you're content to believe someone managed to enter the apartment and take her in the same time period?
I'm not content to take that option.
I believe someone came in through the front door and abducted Madeleine yes. I don't think someone would have abducted her from the patio steps as firstly I don't think Madeleine would have wandered off, what small child closes everything behind them? and two there was too much activity going on by the patio steps.
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I believe someone came in through the front door and abducted Madeleine yes. I don't think someone would have abducted her from the patio steps as firstly I don't think Madeleine would have wandered off, what small child closes everything behind them? and two there was too much activity going on by the patio steps.
You don't know the gates, curtains and door were closed, either at 10 or at 9.30. You can't take the word of witnesses to be fact.
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If there was a witness outside the group of friends that would be more persuasive, but there isn't.
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If there was a witness outside the group of friends that would be more persuasive, but there isn't.
I listened to Mr. Collins Lyall and he has got his facts wrong. The McCann's didn't admit a week later that the patio doors were open, Kate McCann in her very first statement with the police said that the Patio doors were open.
If you are going to say well how do you know the gate was shut the patio door was shut etc etc then there is no point debating it is pointless.
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I listened to Mr. Collins Lyall and he has got his facts wrong. The McCann's didn't admit a week later that the patio doors were open, Kate McCann in her very first statement with the police said that the Patio doors were open.
If you are going to say well how do you know the gate was shut the patio door was shut etc etc then there is no point debating it is pointless.
It's so easy to be a 'sceptic' Lace. Any claims made by witnesses that don't fit in with their theory - are simply dismissed by immediately casting doubt on the veracity of the witness in question. It's just a cheap 'cop-out' IMO.
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I listened to Mr. Collins Lyall and he has got his facts wrong. The McCann's didn't admit a week later that the patio doors were open, Kate McCann in her very first statement with the police said that the Patio doors were open.
If you are going to say well how do you know the gate was shut the patio door was shut etc etc then there is no point debating it is pointless.
It's not pointless, it's highlighting there are very few things we know to be facts.
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It's so easy to be a 'sceptic' Lace. Any claims made by witnesses that don't fit in with their theory - are simply dismissed by immediately casting doubt on the veracity of the witness in question. It's just a cheap 'cop-out' IMO.
I would say preferring to believe someone entered the apartment and took her "in between all this going on" - and leaving it at that - is a 'cop out'.
It's the easy answer the press were happy to accept in the hours and days after the disappearance.
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From Fiona Payne as regards km.........................
''"She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean, this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying `Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or', erm, `or locking it and, you know, finding that we're not there and the door's locked if she woke up', because Madeleine had woken up, what I thought was the night before. Erm, tut, and it was in that context really, just asking, you know, what I thought. So it was obviously something that was on her mind a bit, huh".
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Here's Mr Collins, speaking in 2012.
http://tunein.com/topic/?topicId=38351661 (http://tunein.com/topic/?topicId=38351661)
Good grief - how many basic facts about the case can one person get so wrong? Has he ever bothered to correct any of them since the files were released?
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It's not pointless, it's highlighting there are very few things we know to be facts.
Well I could say how do we know that cuddle cat didn't have dna of the abductor on it, as it was'nt tested. How do we know the bedding didn't have dna of the abductor on it, it wasn't tested.
There are many 'how do we know' Lyall it could go on for ever.
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Well I could say how do we know that cuddle cat didn't have dna of the abductor on it, as it was'nt tested. How do we know the bedding didn't have dna of the abductor on it, it wasn't tested.
There are many 'how do we know' Lyall it could go on for ever.
It will. People will be discussing the case forever.
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Good grief - how many basic facts about the case can one person get so wrong? Has he ever bothered to correct any of them since the files were released?
That's just deflection. Why do you think there is just one book published in the UK on this case? And that book doesn't accept the abduction from inside the apartment claim. Why do you think there have been no books published by authors that do?
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I would say preferring to believe someone entered the apartment and took her "in between all this going on" - and leaving it at that - is a 'cop out'.
It's the easy answer the press were happy to accept in the hours and days after the disappearance.
SY have identified a timeline in which an abductor could have entered the apartment and taken Madeleine away. So who would know best? - the professional experts with all the necessary information and equipment to establish that - or ordinary members of the public who have none of their expertise and don't have access to all the facts. It's no contest as far as I'm concerned.
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SY have identified a timeline in which an abductor could have entered the apartment and taken Madeleine away. So who would know best? - the professional experts with all the necessary information and equipment to establish that - or ordinary members of the public who have none of their expertise and don't have access to all the facts. It's no contest as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, and I don't dispute it could have happened. How could I, I wasn't there. Nobody can rule it out.
But opportunity isn't evidence for it actually having happened.
Neither are the words of DCI Redwood on the TV evidence. The Met's written update did not say the same things.
Therefore we still await evidence.
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If there was a witness outside the group of friends that would be more persuasive, but there isn't.
Actually the only one who said he entered the flat through the window-door and then confirmed it was left open is Mr Oldfield but his highly questionable statement casts doubt about the occurrence.
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That's just deflection. Why do you think there is just one book published in the UK on this case? And that book doesn't accept the abduction from inside the apartment claim. Why do you think there have been no books published by authors that do?
It's not a deflection at all. His interview is full of inaccuracies and untruths - and if his his book is based on what he said in that interview then that will be as just as grossly inaccurate as well - unless you can show otherwise of course.
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Neither are the words of DCI Redwood on the TV evidence. The Met's written update did not say the same things.
Did the Met explicitly claim they discarded abduction that wouldn't be from bed ?
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It's not a deflection at all. His interview is full of inaccuracies and untruths - and if his his book is based on what he said in that interview then that will be as just as grossly inaccurate as well - unless you can show otherwise of course.
I'm not attempting to show anything, Collins can speak for himself. He did in 2012, and clearly still doesn't believe the story as told in KM's book.
Why do you think there are no books published by anyone that does?
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Yes, and I don't dispute it could have happened. How could I, I wasn't there. Nobody can rule it out.
But opportunity isn't evidence for it actually having happened.
Neither are the words of DCI Redwood on the TV evidence. The Met's written update did not say the same things.
Therefore we still await evidence.
But it wasn't just the fact that they have proved the opportunity existed, there is also JT's witness statement to consider which backs it up and also the Smith's - which although does not help particularly with the timelines at 5A - does give a description of a man carrying a child which is remarkably similar to that of Jane Tanners which therefore gives weight to her sighting.
What is it the written update says which changes anything DCI Redwood has alreadysaid? I don't know of anything.
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Did the Met explicitly claim they discarded abduction that wouldn't be from bed ?
I don't think so Anne, but I've no paid too much attention to Redwood's TV interviews over the years. They have only issued one thing in writing, and that was the July 4th update - which doesn't say anything categorically. How could it? The investigation has only just begun.
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I'm not attempting to show anything, Collins can speak for himself. He did in 2012, and clearly still doesn't believe the story as told in KM's book.
Why do you think there are no books published by anyone that does?
Because it would be a waste of time? What can anyone say who believes the McCanns that can't already be read in the files or in Kate's book.
Although I do wish someone would write a book listing and rebutting the hundreds of lies, myths and disinformation which has been circulating for the last 6 years and which are still regurgitated regularly on the 'sceptic' sites. That is one book I would definitely buy.
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Hundreds? >@@(*&)
There have been a few I agree.
Write that book, Benice. I'm writing one, we can swap 8(0(*
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But it wasn't just the fact that they have proved the opportunity existed, there is also JT's witness statement to consider which backs it up and also the Smith's - which although does not help particularly with the timelines at 5A - does give a description of a man carrying a child which is remarkably similar to that of Jane Tanners which therefore gives weight to her sighting.
What is it the written update says which changes anything DCI Redwood has alreadysaid? I don't know of anything.
The written update doesn't say anything, but the investigation has only just begun so how could it. I'd forget what Redwood said during the review - poor guy got stuck in front of the cameras and had to say something that wouldn't reignite the press frenzy (or annoy K&G's lawyers).
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I don't think so Anne, but I've no paid too much attention to Redwood's TV interviews over the years. They have only issued one thing in writing, and that was the July 4th update - which doesn't say anything categorically. How could it? The investigation has only just begun.
Thank you, Lyall, I don't remember reading that abduction had to be from bed. I first believed like Mr Collins that Madeleine had gone out and met her fate, but not with gypsies. In Portugal gypsies (about 50 thousands members of that nation without a state) live in communities in the suburbs of cities or in the countryside.
Mr Collins made mistakes as all those who wrote books before the files were released.
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Hundreds? >@@(*&)
There have been a few I agree.
Write that book, Benice. I'm writing one, we can swap 8(0(*
Are you ? I really don't see why a sceptic couldn't write a book de-constructing what with time has become collective belief. A pro could do that as well, honesty and rigour are the qualities required, apart from some talent in writing.
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Thank you, Lyall, I don't remember reading that abduction had to be from bed. I first believed like Mr Collins that Madeleine had gone out and met her fate, but not with gypsies. In Portugal gypsies (about 50 thousands members of that nation without a state) live in communities in the suburbs of cities or in the countryside.
Mr Collins made mistakes as all those who wrote books before the files were released.
I know he made mistakes, and I don't like it that he opts to blame sadly easy targets either, but essentially what he says in the book - and also four years later in the interview - is that he isn't convinced by MO or JT as witnesses, and the case revolves around those two doesn't it. And the book is untouched by the lawyers. Interesting I think.
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Are you ? I really don't see why a sceptic couldn't write a book de-constructing what with time has become collective belief. A pro could do that as well, honesty and rigour are the qualities required, apart from some talent in writing.
Talent is definitely the bugbear 8(8-))
It's worth trying though I think. The more people who do the better ?>)()<
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Good grief - how many basic facts about the case can one person get so wrong? Has he ever bothered to correct any of them since the files were released?
Well he's an investigative journalist, Benice, what do you expect?
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And the book is untouched by the lawyers. Interesting I think.
None of the other books has been attacked, like the German book (very similar to Mr Amaral's theory but, being 1) a thesis and 2) in German, who wil read it ?) or the 3 books written by Portuguese.
Mr Collins believes Madeleine's alive, a crucial point, and though the representation of the gypsy world, largely unknown, isn't sinister, who will consider seriously that hypothesis ?
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Talent is definitely the bugbear
Not really, this would be no literature work, no style is required. Keep reader attentive and interested is all that matters.
And a pinch of humour.
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I know he made mistakes, and I don't like it that he opts to blame sadly easy targets either, but essentially what he says in the book - and also four years later in the interview - is that he isn't convinced by MO or JT as witnesses, and the case revolves around those two doesn't it. And the book is untouched by the lawyers. Interesting I think.
He says that the logical thing to think when a child is missing with an open door is that they wandered out.
Well isn't that what Gerry and the friends thought? otherwise why would they go shouting 'Madeleine' searching for her and asking if anyone had seen her.
Kate had feelings that Madeleine wouldn't have left things the way they were, with the open window she thought straight away that Madeleine had been taken.
Why would Kate lie about how the apartment was left, they and the police thought she might have wandered to start with.
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He says that the logical thing to think when a child is missing with an open door is that they wandered out.
Well isn't that what Gerry and the friends thought? otherwise why would they go shouting 'Madeleine' searching for her and asking if anyone had seen her.
Kate had feelings that Madeleine wouldn't have left things the way they were, with the open window she thought straight away that Madeleine had been taken.
Why would Kate lie about how the apartment was left, they and the police thought she might have wandered to start with.
Wouldn't have left what things the way they were? The open window?
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Hundreds? >@@(*&)
There have been a few I agree.
Write that book, Benice. I'm writing one, we can swap 8(0(*
LOL Lyall - now there's a thought. ?{)(** I wish I'd got the time and skills to do it - but unfortunately I don't have either in sufficient abundance - and having a memory like a colander doesn't help.
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It is clear that Kate Mccann expected that her three yr old daughter was able to go out of the apartment on her own to go find them if she woke up, thanks to the poster who quoted fiona paynes roggy interview
nice isnt it? Leaving your doors unlocked just in case your 3 year old can wander out in the dead of night looking for you??
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Wouldn't have left what things the way they were? The open window?
No that she would have shut the patio door, the safety gate and the gate at the bottom of the steps.
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It is clear that Kate Mccann expected that her three yr old daughter was able to go out of the apartment on her own to go find them if she woke up, thanks to the poster who quoted fiona paynes roggy interview
nice isnt it? Leaving your doors unlocked just in case your 3 year old can wander out in the dead of night looking for you??
Curious that Mrs McCann mentioned this to her female companions on that night, since the practice of leaving the window-door open was supposed to have started some nights before.
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Curious that Mrs McCann mentioned this to her female companions on that night, since the practice of leaving the window-door open was supposed to have started some nights before.
Well yes!!!!
Door left open AT LEAST by the Sunday night, cos you know, Russell OBrien checked on the mccann kids on Sunday night as well as the Oldfield kids on that night...even though Mr Oldfield was sick in bed at the time LoooooL and Mr Mccann says he locked the patio door on Sunday night!
@)(++(*
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I listened to Mr. Collins Lyall and he has got his facts wrong. The McCann's didn't admit a week later that the patio doors were open, Kate McCann in her very first statement with the police said that the Patio doors were open.
If you are going to say well how do you know the gate was shut the patio door was shut etc etc then there is no point debating it is pointless.
He also seems to have got the distinction between the Tapas Bar and Restaurant wrong...
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Danny Collins book is a good read, it was written before the files were released, he got a few things wrong, as did others, who doesnt,but he had a hell of a lot of insider information on the ground at the time or near after, nothing can beat that for first hand info
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He also seems to have got the distinction between the Tapas Bar and Restaurant wrong...
>@@(*&) Not a big difference is it. Be honest.
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>@@(*&) Not a big difference is it. Be honest.
A couple of metres
@)(++(*
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Danny Collins book is a good read, it was written before the files were released, he got a few things wrong, as did others, who doesnt,but he had a hell of a lot of insider information c nothing can beat that for first hand info
For someone with on-the-ground- insider info, how did he get the distinction between the Tapas Bar and Restaurant wrong?
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For someone with on-the-ground- insider info, how did he get the distinction between the Tapas Bar and Restaurant wrong?
Pedants should never rule otherwise everyone is up sh it creek
8((()*/
Catch you later alligator
8)--))
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Stephen, of course a child can open a door and walk out, you don't have to show a story in a newspaper to prove that, it is a well known fact.
The point is did Madeleine?
Did Madeleine open the patio doors, shut them behind her, open the safety gate, shut it behind her [at the top of the steps] or climb over it, at the top of the steps?
What about CC the toy she clutched when upset? surely she would have taken that with her?
Also there was the open window and shutter to consider.
I don't think Madeleine would have wandered out.
What if she did though? At the bottom of the steps, as a professional stated, she would have been drawn to the bright lights and noise of the Tapas Bar.
There was no safety gate in May, 3rd 2007. That was put up much later. However I don't believe the McCann left the back door open since on the first depositions Mr. McCann said that he entered the apartment by the front door using the key. For me the possibility that the child went out by herself is impossible. As it is the theory that anyone was able to open the bedroom shutters and take her.
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Maybe he let someone in the front door?
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Maybe he let someone in the front door?
interesting hypothesis...found his daughter dead, panicked, a few reasons why he may have done, a few phone calls and got someone to scurry her body away?
>@@(*&)
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interesting hypothesis...found his daughter dead, panicked, a few reasons why he may have done, a few phone calls and got someone to scurry her body away?
>@@(*&)
A few phone calls to whom?
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A few phone calls to whom?
Your local friendly Russian hood maybe??
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A few phone calls to whom?
your guess is as good as mine, just musing....show me any glaswegian who cant contact directly or indirectly the mob, then i will be the queen of sheba
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your guess is as good as mine, just musing....show me any glaswegian who cant contact directly or indirectly the mob, then i will be the queen of sheba
True about the 'Weegies', Red.
But what are the chances Gerry would have had a contact who could have provided almost immediate help after an 'accident'? Any contact must have had hit men in PDL environs ready to jump at a minute's notice. Bit of a long shot...