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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: gilet on September 24, 2013, 08:55:21 PM
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In light of this
Missing teenager Esme Smith has been found safe and well after a member of the public recognised her from media reports about her disappearance.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2429837/Esme-Smith-Missing-Farnham-schoolgirl-safe-police-London.html
and this
Surrey Police Detective Superintendent Jon Savell said the public had played a key role in tracking down the 14-year-old.
He said: "Throughout our search for Esme, we were very fortunate to have the support of the local community, Esme's school, her friends, the public and the media, and it was as a direct result of the media activity that she was found.
"We have seen huge use of social media, such as Twitter and Facebook, throughout our search and this has been really beneficial but we would now ask that these pages are taken down."
http://news.sky.com/story/1145352/esme-smith-found-safe-after-11-day-search
do other posters agree that the views of Goncalo Amaral appear rather out of touch and outdated?
"... So much effort and so much money spent financing the appeals in the press for witnesses leaves us wondering; we are not convinced of the pertinence of this method that consists of requesting help from the population to resolve a case."
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2009-06-18T09:43:00-07:00&max-results=1
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In light of this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2429837/Esme-Smith-Missing-Farnham-schoolgirl-safe-police-London.html
and this
http://news.sky.com/story/1145352/esme-smith-found-safe-after-11-day-search
do other posters agree that the views of Goncalo Amaral appear rather out of touch and outdated?
"... So much effort and so much money spent financing the appeals in the press for witnesses leaves us wondering; we are not convinced of the pertinence of this method that consists of requesting help from the population to resolve a case."
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-max=2009-06-18T09:43:00-07:00&max-results=1
How can you logically compare these two cases ?
Pray tell.
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A 14 year old runaway who was missing for 11 days ?
What point are you making ?
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A 14 year old runaway who was missing for 11 days ?
What point are you making ?
The use of public appeals in missing people cases. While in the UK it is used and is successful, Amaral is not convinced of this method.
eta in the light of the above; Are Amaral's views the best for a missing child case? is what is being asked.
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I was expecting Caylee Anthony's case...
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I thought it was general PJ policy, not Amarals pet theory, ie no media, no publicity...why they have that I dont know..at least thats the impressionI got at the begnning of the case, unless they want nothng but police press conference info and statements, then again Im sure the Portuguese media were reporting on it from day one
Confused....
eta I agree a runaway teenager is not the best example to give likely to be spotted on cctv, or by a member of the public, what missing abducted three year olds have been found by the public looking out for them? They are *hidden* obviously, or worse. In any case mllions of people in so many countries had Madeleines image beamed into their living rooms day in day out for so long, despite what official PJ policies are, what did it yield? In this case publicityy didnt work. So i dont get the question.
Edited for afterthoughts
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I thought it was general PJ policy, not Amarals pet theory, ie no media, no publicity...why they have that I dont know..at least thats the impressionI got at the begnning of the case, unless they want nothng but police press conference info and statements, then again Im sure the Portuguese media were reporting on it from day one
Confused....
The genral PJ policy is not to engage with the public, but under enormous pressure from international media, it was accommodated. Unfortunately still then, it wasn't useful. So they had the opportunity to ask for public information, did introduce a plan to liaise with the media/publi,c but still did not make full use of this technique that is widely used and is successful in other countries.
WITNESS STATEMENT OF DAVID HAMILTON PILDITCH
I am a General News Reporter at The Daily Express. make this statement in response to arequest of the Leveson Inquiry (the "Inquiry") to the solicitors for Express Newspapers dated25 November 2011 with regard to the circumstances surrounding the publication of articlesin The Daily Express between September 2007 and January 2008 about Drs McCann.
This lack of official co-operation between the police and the media, in my view, fatally flawed the investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance from day one..In this country the relationship between the police and the media is probably at its closest during a missing person inquiry. In the absence of any substantial leads the police rely on the public to provide information of possible sightings or people acting suspiciously, This helps ensure the police have as much information as possible available to them.
8. In Portugal, there were none of the basic strategies or systems that we would expect to be put into place in an investigation of this kind.
9. As Gerry McCann pointed out in his statement the lack of formal dialogue between the Policia Judiciaria (P J) and the public was incredibly frustrating for everybody involved.
10. In the critical early hours and days after Madeleine McCann disappeared there were no public appeals. It took a number of days before police released details of the clothes Madeleine was wearing when she disappeared - and that was only done under enormous pressure from the international media.
11. Again under pressure from the media, the police held a series of press conferences in the early days after Madeleine’s disappearance which turned out to be farcical because no useful information was forthcoming.
12. A detective from Lisbon who specialized in investigating art thefts was brought in as a media liaison officer. Unfortunately he refused to confirm or deny any information that was put to him and was unable to give any guidance either on or off the record. In short, his appointment was a complete waste of time
http://www.levesoninquiry.org.uk/wp-con ... lditch.pdf
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I thought it was general PJ policy, not Amarals pet theory, ie no media, no publicity...why they have that I dont know..at least thats the impressionI got at the begnning of the case, unless they want nothng but police press conference info and statements, then again Im sure the Portuguese media were reporting on it from day one
Confused....
Only the McCann didn't see the press release that the PJ made early morning in the 4th of May, alerting for the disappearance of the child and with the exhibition of a picture, that was kept for months.
What the PJ condemned was the release of specific traits like the eye, the brown spot in one of the legs,...because it could lead the "abductor" to harm the child.
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Only the McCann didn't see the press release that the PJ made early morning in the 4th of May, alerting for the disappearance of the child and with the exhibition of a picture, that was kept for months.
What the PJ condemned was the release of specific traits like the eye, the brown spot in one of the legs,...because it could lead the "abductor" to harm the child.
Not according to this statement:
In the critical early hours and days after Madeleine McCann disappeared there were no public appeals. It took a number of days before police released details of the clothes Madeleine was wearing when she disappeared - and that was only done under enormous pressure from the international media.
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The use of public appeals in missing people cases. While in the UK it is used and is successful, Amaral is not convinced of this method.
eta in the light of the above; Are Amaral's views the best for a missing child case? is what is being asked.
The McCanns ran the biggest and most expensive public appeal for a missing person in history
Does that say anything about the use of public appeals in cases like this ?
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It does not actually shock me that certain posters are simply pronouncing confusion and puzzlement.
There is a small amount of logic required to see the comparison.
This child was found because of a widespread public appeal.
This child may not have been found if there had been no such appeal.
I am sure that many, many Portuguese Police hold the same views but I am not aware that others have chosen to lay their cards on the line in the way Amaral has done and express this view in a book designed to make him profit. It is for that reason that I have used him as an example and a quote from him to open the debate.
He suggests that the extra effort that the police have to make to deal with the information received from the public is a waste. I think he is wrong.
It is a simple question. Do his views reflect best practice when children have gone missing or is the best practice that which is encouraged in this country, Ireland, the USA, France, the Netherlands etc that as wide an appeal as possible should be made and as much use of the public as possible should be made.
My own opinion is that the view that he expresses in his book is outmoded and that the welfare of the child is best served by as much publicity as possible and as much help the public can give as well as the use of technology and in particular social media.
As it happens I have seen a number of anti McCanns over the years use social media (particularly Twitter) to highlight the cases of missing children. How do those actions match the view of Amaral? I don't believe that they do.
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Only the McCann didn't see the press release that the PJ made early morning in the 4th of May, alerting for the disappearance of the child and with the exhibition of a picture, that was kept for months.
What the PJ condemned was the release of specific traits like the eye, the brown spot in one of the legs,...because it could lead the "abductor" to harm the child.
Thanks Luz, I remember that part, Gerry being warned not publicise the eye defect but went ahead anyway despite thnking the abductor mght do somethng to it!! Because it was a good marketing ploy, bizarre thnking IMO
Thanks Mostache, all very complicated..but I wouldnt really take every thing uttered at Leveson as the gospel truth....too many parties with too many agendas vyng there imo
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The McCanns ran the biggest and most expensive public appeal for a missing person in history
Does that say anything about the use of public appeals in cases like this ?
The question is the use of public appeals by the police and the use or in this case, non use of it as a tool to help the investigation.
IF the PJ police had done the appeals I am sure they would have had a better response than the McCann's, as many were weary of the parents 'methods' from the word go.
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The McCanns ran the biggest and most expensive public appeal for a missing person in history
Does that say anything about the use of public appeals in cases like this ?
Two comments spring to mind in response to that.
The initial reaction of the PJ was to offer absolutely no information at all which is entirely at odds with what English people, international media and press would expect. The McCanns had to initiate a campaign because of the lack of action in that regard from the PJ.
The other comment is that in general it doesn't say much about such campaigns at all other than that some are successful and some are not. Unfortunately in the case of the McCanns, so far there has been no successful outcome.
But because only some such campaigns are successful does not as your question implies mean that no such campaigns should be undertaken.
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It does not actually shock me that certain posters are simply pronouncing confusion and puzzlement.
There is a small amount of logic required to see the comparison.
This child was found because of a widespread public appeal.
This child may not have been found if there had been no such appeal.
I am sure that many, many Portuguese Police hold the same views but I am not aware that others have chosen to lay their cards on the line in the way Amaral has done and express this view in a book designed to make him profit. It is for that reason that I have used him as an example and a quote from him to open the debate.
He suggests that the extra effort that the police have to make to deal with the information received from the public is a waste. I think he is wrong.
It is a simple question. Do his views reflect best practice when children have gone missing or is the best practice that which is encouraged in this country, Ireland, the USA, France, the Netherlands etc that as wide an appeal as possible should be made and as much use of the public as possible should be made.
My own opinion is that the view that he expresses in his book is outmoded and that the welfare of the child is best served by as much publicity as possible and as much help the public can give as well as the use of technology and in particular social media.
As it happens I have seen a number of anti McCanns over the years use social media (particularly Twitter) to highlight the cases of missing children. How do those actions match the view of Amaral? I don't believe that they do.
And Madeleine wasnt found despite the same, you can argue the toss as much as you like, little comparison, between the two examples in any case and its hardly veiled this is another bash Amaral thread, tedious..enjoy though
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Thanks Luz, I remember that part, Gerry being warned not publicise the eye defect but went ahead anyway despite thnking the abductor mght do somethng to it!! Because it was a good marketing ploy, bizarre thnking IMO
Thanks Mostache, all very complicated..but I wouldnt really take every thing uttered at Leveson as the gospel truth....too many parties with too many agendas vyng there imo
Would you agree or disagree that, because many distrusted the McCann's and hence would have distrusted their appeals, that it would have been better for the PJ police to have run the appeals?
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Only the McCann didn't see the press release that the PJ made early morning in the 4th of May, alerting for the disappearance of the child and with the exhibition of a picture, that was kept for months.
What the PJ condemned was the release of specific traits like the eye, the brown spot in one of the legs,...because it could lead the "abductor" to harm the child.
That is simply a myth that has been completely debunked.
You really should rely on facts rather than myth.
The eye defect was made public by the PJ in a press release within 48 hours of the disappearance.
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The question is the use of public appeals by the police and the use or in this case, non use of it as a tool to help the investigation.
IF the PJ police had done the appeals I am sure they would have had a better response than the McCann's, as many were weary of the parents 'methods' from the word go.
Actually you make a crucial point there.
Many anti McCanns claim that one of their biggest bugbears is that the McCanns led the appeals.
But they completely ignore the fact that they had no option but to do so.
There were no TV appeals, no radio appeals from the Police in those early days.
So the anti McCanns are actually blaming the McCanns for reacting to the inaction on the part of the PJ.
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Actually you make a crucial point there.
Many anti McCanns claim that one of their biggest bugbears is that the McCanns led the appeals.
But they completely ignore the fact that they had no option but to do so.
There were no TV appeals, no radio appeals from the Police in those early days.
So the anti McCanns are actually blaming the McCanns for reacting to the inaction on the part of the PJ.
Correct.
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Somebody, suddenly omnipresent on this forum, seems not to be aware that Common Law is different from Romano-Germanic Law, an issue that has been amply discussed.
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And Madeleine wasnt found despite the same, you can argue the toss as much as you like, little comparison, between the two examples in any case and its hardly veiled this is another bash Amaral thread, tedious..enjoy though
You have clearly missed the rather important point that Amaral's comment is not just about the McCann case but about all such cases. And because of that, no matter how much you attempt to wriggle, the fact is that his comment relates directly to the Esme case. He is saying that in such a case the effort and finance in dealing with information coming in is not worth it. I say he is wrong. And this case proves he is wrong.
As for your comment that Madeleine was not found despite the publicity, that is a pathetic stance. Are you really suggesting that because some children are not found then no alerts should be issued, no massive publicity should be made when the next child goes missing.
Again this recent case of Esme proves just how sick that stance really is because you would have prevented that passer by recognising her and returning her to her family. Proud of that stance are you?
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Would you agree or disagree that, because many distrusted the McCann's and hence would have distrusted their appeals, that it would have been better for the PJ police to have run the appeals?
Sorry but I dont remember the Mccanns being distrusted by the public early on, it was the total opposite, they received enormous support and help for a good while
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Sorry but I dont remember the Mccanns being distrusted by the public early on, it was the total opposite, they received enormous support and help for a good while
Correct Red 8((()*/
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Somebody, suddenly omnipresent on this forum, seems not to be aware that Common Law is different from Romano-Germanic Law, an issue that has been amply discussed.
Yet that law made allowance for "a detective from Lisbon who specialized in investigating art thefts was brought in as a media liaison officer. Unfortunately he refused to confirm or deny any information that was put to him and was unable to give any guidance either on or off the record." So they took the steps to communicate with the media and still did not take the opportunity to do the appeals themselves. Remember; an appeal is not giving out investigative information, it's just giving a description of the missing person. Not something that would impair the investigation as such.
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You have clearly missed the rather important point that Amaral's comment is not just about the McCann case but about all such cases. And because of that, no matter how much you attempt to wriggle, the fact is that his comment relates directly to the Esme case. He is saying that in such a case the effort and finance in dealing with information coming in is not worth it. I say he is wrong. And this case proves he is wrong.
As for your comment that Madeleine was not found despite the publicity, that is a pathetic stance. Are you really suggesting that because some children are not found then no alerts should be issued, no massive publicity should be made when the next child goes missing.
Again this recent case of Esme proves just how sick that stance really is because you would have prevented that passer by recognising her and returning her to her family. Proud of that stance are you?
Please dont twist my words, to suit your flawed argument, which I have answered in full, read back and join the dots, not my fault you cant figure it out, and resort to such indignation LOL, thanks in advance!
8((()*/
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On the 4th of May 2007, the MP allowed the PJ to divulge the disappearance of Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p2p452
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Somebody, suddenly omnipresent on this forum, seems not to be aware that Common Law is different from Romano-Germanic Law, an issue that has been amply discussed.
What totally irrelevant tosh!
Amaral is not talking about law when he makes his comment. He is talking about the welfare of the child who has disappeared and the balance of that welfare with other things such as how much time his officers want to spend on dealing with certain kinds of information.
He states that he (and other PT police) believe that time and money (manpower hours) spent on dealing with information generated by public appeals in missing child cases is a waste of that time and money.
He is wrong.
And the proof that he is wrong comes in the form of recent case here in England where a child was found precisely because of that kind of information being handled efficiently and promptly by the two police forces involved.
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Please dont twist my words, to suit your flawed argument, which I have answered in full, read back and join the dots, not my fault you cant figure it out, and resort to such indignation LOL, thanks in advance!
8((()*/
No matter that you pretend I have twisted your words, I have not and am certain that readers of this thread will come to that conclusion themselves.
You are trying to defend the indefensible, I'm afraid.
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On the 4th of May 2007, the MP allowed the PJ to divulge the disappearance of Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p2p452
Do you really think that constitutes a major appeal regarding a missing child?
Where are the details of the police making statements and appeals on Television for example?
Just as an aside, though, I thank you for reminding me where the PJ press release regarding the eye defect was. It was made within 48 hours of the disappearance as I stated in my reply to Luz, less than 48 hours after the disappearance. So much for the police not wanting it mentioned.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p1p33
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Tipical and sad : lend to others what you should ascribe to you.
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That is simply a myth that has been completely debunked.
You really should rely on facts rather than myth.
The eye defect was made public by the PJ in a press release within 48 hours of the disappearance.
Ah I have just found this in the PJ files which suggests you are right in the case of publicising there was a brown fleck in Madeleines eye, (doesnt detract from Gerry Mccanns words though that despite a danger it was a good ploy and doesnt detract from Kate Mccann sayng they never made a big thng of it, hello? LOL) but further wrong in insisting Mr Amaral didnt think publicity was a good idea seeing as he initiated request for said press publicity for the missing child on 4th May, evil wasnt he?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p1p32
Eta does anyne know if the press release DID go out to the papers and tv about the eye defedt in Portugal? Because it seems disjointed it would, but police would warn Mccanns not to mention it...?
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On the 4th of May 2007, the MP allowed the PJ to divulge the disappearance of Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p2p452
They distributed the information through the police channels, like to Interpol. Standard police procedure, but they still didn't do TV and radio police appeals.
The missing child alert was only requested on 8 May. Surely that should have been requested immediately after she was reported missing?
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No matter that you pretend I have twisted your words, I have not and am certain that readers of this thread will come to that conclusion themselves.
You are trying to defend the indefensible, I'm afraid.
Yada yada, facts are all there to read back
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Tipical and sad : lend to others what you should ascribe to you.
Do explain what is typical (sic) and sad.
I do not believe that making a press release of bare facts about a child constitutes making a major media appeal.
I do believe that major media appeals should be conducted in missing child cases.
Clearly Amaral and other PJ do not.
I think the power of social media, the desire to help from the public and the authority of the police combined do a wonderful job in such cases.
Not all appeals are successful unfortunately, but some, such as that relating to Esme where the appeal led directly to her being found, are and because of that I find it shocking that some people should suggest such appeals are not worthwhile.
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Ah I have just found this in the PJ files which suggests you are right in the case of publicising there was a brown fleck in Madeleines eye, (doesnt detract from Gerry Mccanns words though) but further wrong in insisting Mr Amaral didnt think publicity was a good idea seeing as he initiated request for said press publicity for the missing child on 4th May, evil wasnt he?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p1p32
Thank you. I knew I was right about the matter.
I never said anything about it detracting from Gerry's words. My posting of that information related to the fact that Luz was posting misinformation on the subject and I was simply correcting that misinformation.
And I am not wrong on the issue of media appeals either. I have not said that Amaral did not initiate some press releases. He, or those above him, did so.
I have said that two little paper press releases do not add up to the kind of blitzed media and social media appeal which was is the topic of this thread. It is the mass of information coming in from such appeals that Amaral was talking about in his statement. He is referring to the kind of appeal which the McCanns, due to the lack of initiative on the part of the PJ, had to undertake themselves. As you know in this country a proper media appeal including press releases, TV appearances etc is set up by the police.
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Somebody, suddenly omnipresent on this forum, seems not to be aware that Common Law is different from Romano-Germanic Law, an issue that has been amply discussed.
Omnipresent, an excellent word Anne. By their posts shall the McCann's agenda be known 8(0(*
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Omnipresent, an excellent word Anne. By their posts shall the McCann's agenda be known 8(0(*
That would be so funny were it not so genuinely sad.
Trying desperately to find words to abuse me without upsetting the mods, Anne Guedes, chose the word "omnipresent" and her partner in arms chose to applaud that.
But the truth is that Faithlilly is far more present here than I am by over 500 posts and Anne Guedes is almost 300% more present than I am here with over 3500 posts.
Really, you must try harder to be abusive because that is an truly awful attempt.
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The truth of the matter is simply cultural differences. As a Brit, we pride ourselves, on keeping the stiff upper lip and fight tooth and nail to get to the truth and our goals. The McCanns have a daughter missing. The McCanns, through contacts and consular help set up a worldwide campaign to find their daughter and used certain anniversaries to promote a new appeal.
The McCanns have used social media. Something that is a valuable tool in the 21st century to get appeals spread far and wide. And they have used it to its full effect in hope that Madeleine will be found. The McCanns have used the media to get the word out about their appeals. The media in all earnest, used the McCanns to sell papers, but instead of shying away from media, the McCanns know that the media is the only hope they have of getting their appeals printed in papers, not just in the United Kingdom but worldwide.
The McCanns put themselves on the front line and even though the press published stories that were totally false they still need the media to get the message home that Madeleine is missing.
If Amaral thinks it highly suspicious then he is totally mistaken. One thing the McCanns have shown is that the media can help you and in a way the McCanns have set a precedent on how to use social media on appeals for missing people.
A policeman may in his mind think the chances of finding a missing child, after 6 years alive, are pretty slim. But in his heart he prays and hopes his fears are unfounded. One thing they do NOT do is flaunt themselves on TV, write books that clearly state the child is dead.
And before people jump up and down saying Amaral has never said that Madeleine McCann is definitely dead, he has. The foreward in his book clearly states it.
The death of the investigation, once again! But this is about the death of a child! Yes, I affirm it, a child is dead! This certainty is not fed by vague assumptions, no, I base myself on facts, details, clues and evidence recorded in the official records. Many questions have been raised. But where are the answers?
Goncalo Amaral's actions in my opinion, has caused harm to the search. The anti McCanns, who hero-worship this ex-detective, are clear examples of how they believe everything he says and totally ignore the words of DCI Andy Redwood who states that Madeleine could be alive.
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The PJ did not want to publicise the brown fleck in Maddie's eye but the parents insisted on it.
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What part didn't you understand?!
In the early morning of May, 4, 2007 every national TV channel started passing alerts about Madeleine's disappearance asking people to call a phone number of the GNR or the PJ. It was kept for months. Also in every newscast there were references to the situation.
I'm unable to recover the alert used by the TVs, but I can show here an example of the type of news that the press maintained for a long time.
Menina desaparecida na Praia da Luz
http://www.dnoticias.pt/actualidade/pais/171398-menina-desaparecida-na-praia-da-luz-procurada-por-30-gnr (http://www.dnoticias.pt/actualidade/pais/171398-menina-desaparecida-na-praia-da-luz-procurada-por-30-gnr)
PJ convicta de que criança inglesa terá sido raptada
http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=44015&tm=8&layout=121&visual=49 (http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=44015&tm=8&layout=121&visual=49)
There were also appeals made in every national and local radio station.
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Thank you. I knew I was right about the matter.
I never said anything about it detracting from Gerry's words. My posting of that information related to the fact that Luz was posting misinformation on the subject and I was simply correcting that misinformation.
And I am not wrong on the issue of media appeals either. I have not said that Amaral did not initiate some press releases. He, or those above him, did so.
I have said that two little paper press releases do not add up to the kind of blitzed media and social media appeal which was is the topic of this thread. It is the mass of information coming in from such appeals that Amaral was talking about in his statement. He is referring to the kind of appeal which the McCanns, due to the lack of initiative on the part of the PJ, had to undertake themselves. As you know in this country a proper media appeal including press releases, TV appearances etc is set up by the police.
There was no social media appeals in this case from anywhere, facebook and twitterwas not then what it is today
As I said before, Madeleines story and image was in the news all day every day in many countries right from day one...and for months and then years....you are flogging a dead horse IMO to suggest her disappearance was not publicised enough by Mr Amaral, if it wasnt, despite him asking permission aganst some policy to publicise it!, everyone else did it for the PJ, so as I said a bit of a pointless thread
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They distributed the information through the police channels, like to Interpol. Standard police procedure, but they still didn't do TV and radio police appeals.
The missing child alert was only requested on 8 May. Surely that should have been requested immediately after she was reported missing?
I can tell you that Portuguese TV reported this intensively. I never watch TV but at the time my children watched and I learnt this through them. I remember saying "they took the only one who would be able to describe them".
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I can tell you that Portuguese TV reported this intensively. I never watch TV but at the time my children watched and I learnt this through them. I remember saying "they took the only one who would be able to describe them".
What part didn't you understand?!
In the early morning of May, 4, 2007 every national TV channel started passing alerts about Madeleine's disappearance asking people to call a phone number of the GNR or the PJ. It was kept for months. Also in every newscast there were references to the situation.
I'm unable to recover the alert used by the TVs, but I can show here an example of the type of news that the press maintained for a long time.
Menina desaparecida na Praia da Luz
http://www.dnoticias.pt/actualidade/pais/171398-menina-desaparecida-na-praia-da-luz-procurada-por-30-gnr (http://www.dnoticias.pt/actualidade/pais/171398-menina-desaparecida-na-praia-da-luz-procurada-por-30-gnr)
PJ convicta de que criança inglesa terá sido raptada
http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=44015&tm=8&layout=121&visual=49 (http://www.rtp.pt/noticias/index.php?article=44015&tm=8&layout=121&visual=49)
And was that followed up by a regular update from the Police, then properly organised appeals from the parents and an appeal on social media?
Your examples simply show two papers who have published bits of the press release with a small amount of comment. Is that also what was read out on TV? Hardly likely to catch the audience attention is it? And no photos in those articles either. Really helpful when asking people to look for somebody.
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The PJ did not want to publicise the brown fleck in Maddie's eye but the parents insisted on it.
Are you sure about that?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_32.jpg
From the PJ
To: The Assistant Prosecutor
Public Ministry
Date: 04-05-2007
Subject: Request for Divulgation by means of the Press
As it is of clear interest to the investigation of the case in reference, I have the honour to ask you to authorise the divulgation of the disappearance of the young girl Madeleine McCann by means of the organs of the press, with the aim of obtaining information leading to her whereabouts.
I enclose a model for divulgation.
With best compliments
The Coordinator of the Investigation.
G. Amaral
And the authorisation
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p2p452
Letter from the Lagos Public Ministry
To: Portimao DIC
Date: 04-05-2007
Subject: Request for Divulgation by Means of the Media with Reference to the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann
This letter serves to communicate to you that within the framework of what is laid down in Article 86 n? 5 of the CPP I authorise this police force to divulge the disappearance of Madeleine Beth McCann by means of the organs of the press with the aim of obtaining information leading to her whereabouts, in accordance with the press release model that was sent to us.
With best compliments,
Signed
That reads to me as if Goncalo Amaral was asking permission the day after Madeleine disappeared. Please provide proof that the PJ didn't want to release details.
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Omnipresent, an excellent word Anne. By their posts shall the McCann's agenda be known 8(0(*
Lets do a little "omnipresent" test shall we?
Stats as of a few minutes ago;-
Faithlilly
Total Time Spent Online: 17 days, 2 hours and 36 minutes.
Anne
Total Time Spent Online: 35 days, 17 hours and 3 minutes.
Redblossom
Total Time Spent Online: 22 days, 14 hours and 50 minutes.
Compare with-
Gilet
Total Time Spent Online: 8 days, 7 hours and 41 minutes.
Mo Stache
Total Time Spent Online: 4 days, 19 hours and 4 minutes.
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The truth of the matter is simply cultural differences. As a Brit, we pride ourselves, on keeping the stiff upper lip and fight tooth and nail to get to the truth and our goals. The McCanns have a daughter missing. The McCanns, through contacts and consular help set up a worldwide campaign to find their daughter and used certain anniversaries to promote a new appeal.
The McCanns have used social media. Something that is a valuable tool in the 21st century to get appeals spread far and wide. And they have used it to its full effect in hope that Madeleine will be found. The McCanns have used the media to get the word out about their appeals. The media in all earnest, used the McCanns to sell papers, but instead of shying away from media, the McCanns know that the media is the only hope they have of getting their appeals printed in papers, not just in the United Kingdom but worldwide.
The McCanns put themselves on the front line and even though the press published stories that were totally false they still need the media to get the message home that Madeleine is missing.
If Amaral thinks it highly suspicious then he is totally mistaken. One thing the McCanns have shown is that the media can help you and in a way the McCanns have set a precedent on how to use social media on appeals for missing people.
A policeman may in his mind think the chances of finding a missing child, after 6 years alive, are pretty slim. But in his heart he prays and hopes his fears are unfounded. One thing they do NOT do is flaunt themselves on TV, write books that clearly state the child is dead.
And before people jump up and down saying Amaral has never said that Madeleine McCann is definitely dead, he has. The foreward in his book clearly states it.
Goncalo Amaral's actions in my opinion, has caused harm to the search. The anti McCanns, who hero-worship this ex-detective, are clear examples of how they believe everything he says and totally ignore the words of DCI Andy Redwood who states that Madeleine could be alive.
Well said!
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There was no social media appeals in this case from anywhere, facebook and twitterwas not then what it is today
As I said before, Madeleines story and image was in the news all day every day in many countries right from day one...and for months and then years....you are flogging a dead horse IMO to suggest her disappearance was not publicised enough by Mr Amaral, if it wasnt, despite him asking permission aganst some policy to publicise it!, everyone else did it for the PJ, so as I said a bit of a pointless thread
You really are a devil for twisting things. Nowhere do I say there was social media appeals in 2007.
And you are now I feel deliberately avoiding the issue at the heart of the thread. It is NOT about the McCann case but about missing child cases in general, no matter how often you fail to realise that.
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Lets do a little "omnipresent" test shall we?
Stats as of a few minutes ago;-
Faithlilly
Total Time Spent Online: 17 days, 2 hours and 36 minutes.
Anne
Total Time Spent Online: 35 days, 17 hours and 3 minutes.
Redblossom
Total Time Spent Online: 22 days, 14 hours and 50 minutes.
Compare with-
Gilet
Total Time Spent Online: 8 days, 7 hours and 41 minutes.
Mo Stache
Total Time Spent Online: 4 days, 19 hours and 4 minutes.
means nothing....gilet was not posting on this forum for a good while, if you compare day to day posts I bet she/he has posted more than anyone else in the last few days
@)(++(*
silly stats hey?
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Common Law is different from Romano-Germanic Law. No reconstruction in front of cameras with actors here, but reconstitution with the protagonists in front of PJ inspectors. No wild launching appeals through the tabloids (to get hundred of sightings 100% sure because a little blond one was seen with big dark wolf), but pondered announcement to strategic institutions.
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I can tell you that Portuguese TV reported this intensively. I never watch TV but at the time my children watched and I learnt this through them. I remember saying "they took the only one who would be able to describe them".
That is an extremely interesting quote you have given us from your children but it clearly did not come from what this thread is about, an appeal about the missing child. I think you are confusing the idea of a TV news story and an appeal. I suspect Luz is doing the same.
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means nothing....gilet was not posting on this forum for a good while, if you compare day to day posts I bet she/he has posted more than anyone else in the last few days
@)(++(*
silly stats hey?
Oh dear!! Have you just re read what you posted? You admit Gilet hasn't been around for a good while, i.e. how can he then be accused of being "omnipresent"? Stat's dont lie.
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The truth of the matter is simply cultural differences. As a Brit, we pride ourselves, on keeping the stiff upper lip and fight tooth and nail to get to the truth and our goals. The McCanns have a daughter missing. The McCanns, through contacts and consular help set up a worldwide campaign to find their daughter and used certain anniversaries to promote a new appeal.
The McCanns have used social media. Something that is a valuable tool in the 21st century to get appeals spread far and wide. And they have used it to its full effect in hope that Madeleine will be found. The McCanns have used the media to get the word out about their appeals. The media in all earnest, used the McCanns to sell papers, but instead of shying away from media, the McCanns know that the media is the only hope they have of getting their appeals printed in papers, not just in the United Kingdom but worldwide.
The McCanns put themselves on the front line and even though the press published stories that were totally false they still need the media to get the message home that Madeleine is missing.
If Amaral thinks it highly suspicious then he is totally mistaken. One thing the McCanns have shown is that the media can help you and in a way the McCanns have set a precedent on how to use social media on appeals for missing people.
A policeman may in his mind think the chances of finding a missing child, after 6 years alive, are pretty slim. But in his heart he prays and hopes his fears are unfounded. One thing they do NOT do is flaunt themselves on TV, write books that clearly state the child is dead.
And before people jump up and down saying Amaral has never said that Madeleine McCann is definitely dead, he has. The foreward in his book clearly states it.
Goncalo Amaral's actions in my opinion, has caused harm to the search. The anti McCanns, who hero-worship this ex-detective, are clear examples of how they believe everything he says and totally ignore the words of DCI Andy Redwood who states that Madeleine could be alive.
Very good points.
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Are you sure about that?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_32.jpg
And the authorisation
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MADELINE.htm#p2p452
That reads to me as if Goncalo Amaral was asking permission the day after Madeleine disappeared. Please provide proof that the PJ didn't want to release details.
The myth Montclair is offering has been debunked many times. Your information here is quite correct.
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means nothing....gilet was not posting on this forum for a good while, if you compare day to day posts I bet she/he has posted more than anyone else in the last few days
@)(++(*
silly stats hey?
I almost never log out, without necessarily being there.
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means nothing....gilet was not posting on this forum for a good while, if you compare day to day posts I bet she/he has posted more than anyone else in the last few days
@)(++(*
silly stats hey?
It means one thing for certain. The allegation that I am omnipresent here was unjustified garbage.
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I almost never log out, without necessarily being there.
Another one who just shot themselves in the foot. Your reply has just proved that you ARE "omnipresent". You are here all the time. So consumed and addicted you can't log out?
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The myth Montclair is offering has been debunked many times. Your information here is quite correct.
Is it a myth? There's a difference between mentioning it and using it in a worldwide multimedia campaign.
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It means one thing for certain. The allegation that I am omnipresent here was unjustified garbage.
8((()*/
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I learnt through my children what had happened in Praia da Luz. It didn't pass my mind to investigate how they learnt about it.
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You really are a devil for twisting things. Nowhere do I say there was social media appeals in 2007.
And you are now I feel deliberately avoiding the issue at the heart of the thread. It is NOT about the McCann case but about missing child cases in general, no matter how often you fail to realise that.
If its about missing people in general then why bring in the Madeleine case a specific example of not been afforded all these publicity avenues
You should remember in all this Madeleine has been the MOST PUBLICISED missing child in the world
So your argument as I said falls down from the beginning, give it up
What the Portuguese authorities thinkings about publication is or isnt I dont know and why...amaral certainly wanted to go against it.....seeing as he sent a memo pdq on 4th may to allow publicity...to say in Britain we do this and that and its better, maybe, I dont know, you would have to compare countey stats for missing people found, but as I said, whole thread is an unadulterated Amaral bash, naughty, when even you concede it wasnt after all about HIM, tryharder next time, we aint all stupid
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Lets do a little "omnipresent" test shall we?
Stats as of a few minutes ago;-
Faithlilly
Total Time Spent Online: 17 days, 2 hours and 36 minutes.
Anne
Total Time Spent Online: 35 days, 17 hours and 3 minutes.
Redblossom
Total Time Spent Online: 22 days, 14 hours and 50 minutes.
Compare with-
Gilet
Total Time Spent Online: 8 days, 7 hours and 41 minutes.
Mo Stache
Total Time Spent Online: 4 days, 19 hours and 4 minutes.
What about Sadie? >@@(*&)
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That would be so funny were it not so genuinely sad.
Trying desperately to find words to abuse me without upsetting the mods, Anne Guedes, chose the word "omnipresent" and her partner in arms chose to applaud that.
But the truth is that Faithlilly is far more present here than I am by over 500 posts and Anne Guedes is almost 300% more present than I am here with over 3500 posts.
Really, you must try harder to be abusive because that is an truly awful attempt.
It's the timing of you visits, not the number, that is illuminating gilet.
As to being abusive, I leave that to those better versed in the art ?{)(**
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Common Law is different from Romano-Germanic Law. No reconstruction in front of cameras with actors here, but reconstitution with the protagonists in front of PJ inspectors. No wild launching appeals through the tabloids (to get hundred of sightings 100% sure because a little blond one was seen with big dark wolf), but pondered announcement to strategic institutions.
You have repeated that bit about common law now and it is still totally irrelevant and off topic.
As for the second part of your post, I am horrified.
It comes across as quite sickening. Don't you realise that? Unforutnately the English is horribly garbled and the actual meaning is not as clear as it might be but the part in brackets sounds... I actually cannot think of words to describe it.
We are talking about the parents of a missing child having to organise TV appeals because the Police don't believe in such things, I repeat a little child and desperate parents.
You are taking the Amaral statement about the worthlessness of appeals to a whole new and quite horrible level I think. Please rephrase what you have posted and assure me that you do not mean to do that.
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Oh dear!! Have you just re read what you posted? You admit Gilet hasn't been around for a good while, i.e. how can he then be accused of being "omnipresent"? Stat's dont lie.
I made the point that Gilet has made dozens if not hundreds of posts in the last week, you cant take mean numbers over time as reflecting any point in time
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What about Sadie? >@@(*&)
Sadie is not here and is not participating in the current discussion on this thread. Rather unfair to drag her into this, don't you think?
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I almost never log out, without necessarily being there.
Ah so then lets rely on post count then.
As I said, almost 300% more than me.
3543
1267
Pot calling kettle, I believe.
Your calling me omnipresent here is a really daft way to try to abuse me and a blatant way of trying to take the thread off topic.
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Another one who just shot themselves in the foot. Your reply has just proved that you ARE "omnipresent". You are here all the time. So consumed and addicted you can't log out?
Believe me or not, I didn't realize it was simple to log out... My daughter told me the other day I was slowing horribly my laptop having 30 sites open... most of them French and nothing to do with Madeleine.
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Is it a myth? There's a difference between mentioning it and using it in a worldwide multimedia campaign.
true
I still wonder why Gerry Mccann decided he KNEW that when the police told him publicising his childs eye defect could get her maimed or killed and he thought oh well its a good marketing ploy
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Sadie is not here and is not participating in the current discussion on this thread. Rather unfair to drag her into this, don't you think?
No I don't. Chill out 8(0(* Find a sense of humour Mo.
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I made the point that Gilet has made dozens if not hundreds of posts in the last week, you cant take mean numbers over time as reflecting any point in time
Omnipresent is an indication of presents over time (being present all the time), not an indication of any point in time.
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No I don't. Chill out 8(0(* Find a sense of humour Mo.
Seems we have a rather fractious set of supporters online tonight. Can't imagine why ! 8(0(*
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Believe me or not, I didn't realize it was simple to log out... My daughter told me the other day I was slowing horribly my laptop having 30 sites open... most of them French and nothing to do with Madeleine.
With respect, then you should have examined your own on line behaviour before accusing someone else or others of being "omnipresent".
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Ah so then lets rely on post count then.
As I said, almost 300% more than me.
3543
1267
Pot calling kettle, I believe.
Your calling me omnipresent here is a really daft way to try to abuse me and a blatant way of trying to take the thread off topic.
you really need to chill out Gilet
You come on here so aggressively like a rottweiler and going for the jugular of so many posters then have the nerve to accuse people of abuse, when you dish it it out all the time directly or indirectly when they only question you, or reply, unbelievable...have a word with yourself and read the book how to make friends and influence people or whatever that self help book is called today LOL
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No I don't. Chill out 8(0(* Find a sense of humour Mo.
I do have a sense of humour, but still I don't feel it right the way you wanted to use Sadie as an example when she wasn't part of the conversation.
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If its about missing people in general then why bring in the Madeleine case a specific example of not been afforded all these publicity avenues
You should remember in all this Madeleine has been the MOST PUBLICISED missing child in the world
So your argument as I said falls down from the beginning, give it up
What the Portuguese authorities thinkings about publication is or isnt I dont know and why...amaral certainly wanted to go against it.....seeing as he sent a memo pdq on 4th may to allow publicity...to say in Britain we do this and that and its better, maybe, I dont know, you would have to compare countey stats for missing people found, but as I said, whole thread is an unadulterated Amaral bash, naughty, when even you concede it wasnt after all about HIM, tryharder next time, we aint all stupid
I can't believe that you constantly show up the fact that you are not reading properly.
Nowhere in the OP or till the topic was introduced did I mention Madeleine McCann or that case. It was anti McCann posters who could not (as you are proving with this post) understand the simple logic of the OP.#
I have already complstely answered your comments about the Madeleine McCann case being the most publicised even though it is irrelevant to the OP. It is just a shame that you are repeating yourself.
Your attempt to pretend this is simply Amaral bashing are pathetic.
If you cannot understand that the thread is about the whole difference between the Portuguese system and that which holds sway in other civilised countries then I am sorry for that. If you cannot understand that the quote from Amaral was used as evidence of that general belief then I suggest you re-read the quote itself and note the fact that it is far wider than just his opinion.
If you cannot understand that I used Amaral as an example because he chose to publish that particular phrase in his book then I suggest you re-read the full explanation I gave earlier.
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Omnipresent is an indication of presents over time (being present all the time), not an indication of any point in time.
thanks for that, will go flagellate
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I still wonder why Gerry Mccann decided he KNEW that when the police told him publicising his childs eye defect could get her maimed or killed and he thought oh well its a good marketing ploy
Do you really ?
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It's the timing of you visits, not the number, that is illuminating gilet.
As to being abusive, I leave that to those better versed in the art ?{)(**
So you admit the omnipresent tag was inappropriate and abusive.
And by timing, what exactly do you mean?
I post when I have time available.
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Omnipresent is an indication of presents over time (being present all the time), not an indication of any point in time.
By the way its presence not presents
8((()*/
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true
I still wonder why Gerry Mccann decided he KNEW that when the police told him publicising his childs eye defect could get her maimed or killed and he thought oh well its a good marketing ploy
By the time that happened it was utterly irrelevant anyway as the PJ had published it.
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Do you really ?
Logic tells me he knew there was no danger...As no father would risk that
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you really need to chill out Gilet
You come on here so aggressively like a rottweiler and going for the jugular of so many posters then have the nerve to accuse people of abuse, when you dish it it out all the time directly or indirectly when they only question you, or reply, unbelievable...have a word with yourself and read the book how to make friends and influence people or whatever that self help book is called today LOL
All this nonsense, skirting on the edge of posting abuse about me, simply to avoid the main thrust of the OP which is that Amaral's stated view (and that apparently of many PJ) on the usefulness of public assistance to the police in missing child cases is outmoded and damaging to the welfare of the child.
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With respect, then you should have examined your own on line behaviour before accusing someone else or others of being "omnipresent".
"Omnipresent" is far to be necessarily a default ! It depends on what your presence inspires..
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I do have a sense of humour, but still I don't feel it right the way you wanted to use Sadie as an example when she wasn't part of the conversation.
8-)(--) Not convinced you do have a sense of humour Mo. Tell Sadie we said hello.
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By the way its presence not presents
8((()*/
Thank you for that correction. Fancy that! And I've not had a drop to drink. I might have a word with my spell checker. 8((()*/
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"Omnipresent" is far to be necessarily a default ! It depends on what your presence inspires..
Pardon?
Could you repeat in proper English, French or Portuguese then we might have a chance of understanding.
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"Omnipresent" is far to be necessarily a default ! It depends on what your presence inspires..
Where did that come from? Psychobabble 101.
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8-)(--) Not convinced you do have a sense of humour Mo. Tell Sadie we said hello.
Such a pity you missed all my 'mission impossible' posts with accompanying audio. Admin didn't have a sense of humour, they deleted them all. Ah well!
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Such a pity you missed all my 'mission impossible' posts with accompanying audio. Admin didn't have a sense of humour, they deleted them all. Ah well!
I did miss them Mo. Next time 8)-)))
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Thank you for that correction. Fancy that! And I've not had a drop to drink. I might have a word with my spell checker. 8((()*/
Youre welcome
LOL
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So you admit the omnipresent tag was inappropriate and abusive.
And by timing, what exactly do you mean?
I post when I have time available.
No I don't admit it was inappropriate. At this moment in time it is very appropriate
And your available time just happens to coincide with the McCanns need for some positive propaganda.
Handy eh ? @)(++(*
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We are supposed to believe Anne's transcripts from the court?
Her grasp of English is sadly lacking I'm afraid.
Add to that her sceptics postings then I really can't value anything she says.
Sorry.
Then dont read or quote any of her reports, simple, just read the papers, ohhang on, theres nothng there for some reason
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No I don't admit it was inappropriate. At this moment in time it is very appropriate
And your available time just happens to coincide with the McCanns need for some positive propaganda.
Handy eh ? @)(++(*
only it aint working
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Last year, the Huffington Post saved my daughter's life.
Late last year, my 13-year-old daughter ran away. It was only through a grassroots social media campaign and an article in the Huffington Post that my family was able to garner enough attention to find her.
So said Tony Loftis in this article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-loftis/find-your-missing-child_b_2370160.html
And Amaral and his colleagues believe that having to deal with the information generated by such appeals is a waste of time and money?
I simply cannot understand how anyone can justify that stance when there is a chance that a child's life could be saved.
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Flogging a dead horse, sigh
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We are supposed to believe Anne's transcripts from the court?
Her grasp of English is sadly lacking I'm afraid.
Add to that her sceptics postings then I really can't value anything she says.
Sorry.
A very disingenuous comment Neeley which says more about you. Anne is bilingual and possibly trilingual so your observation is worthless. Those reports from the lions den in Lisbon must really be getting up the pros noses.
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So said Tony Loftis in this article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-loftis/find-your-missing-child_b_2370160.html
And Amaral and his colleagues believe that having to deal with the information generated by such appeals is a waste of time and money?
I simply cannot understand how anyone can justify that stance when there is a chance that a child's life could be saved.
I'm sure it's from the viewpoint of efficiency of an investigation. Information overload helps nobody, least of all the child.
It's probably what did happen in this case as police wouldn't have been prepared for the massive media and public involvement - no police in any country would have been.
It's easy for those not involved to criticise, but the officials on the ground have to rewrite the rules and think on their feet in high profile cases like these. It was exactly the same for British police at Soham.
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Flogging a dead horse, sigh
Not at all. The very fact that you have replied in the way you have done when the thread is about the way in which media blitzes for public assistance can save the lives of children and the fact that certain people see such media campaigns as a waste of time and money, says a great deal about the attitude of anti McCanns such as yourself.
I believe that Amaral and his colleagues are wrong and that if these campaigns generate information which must be sifted by police that is a good thing. It is not a waste of time and money.
The very fact that children are found because of these campaigns means that they are valuable because the welfare of the child is paramount.
I am sorry that your comments show that you feel such matters are of no importance.
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The truth of the matter is simply cultural differences. As a Brit, we pride ourselves, on keeping the stiff upper lip and fight tooth and nail to get to the truth and our goals. The McCanns have a daughter missing. The McCanns, through contacts and consular help set up a worldwide campaign to find their daughter and used certain anniversaries to promote a new appeal.
The McCanns have used social media. Something that is a valuable tool in the 21st century to get appeals spread far and wide. And they have used it to its full effect in hope that Madeleine will be found. The McCanns have used the media to get the word out about their appeals. The media in all earnest, used the McCanns to sell papers, but instead of shying away from media, the McCanns know that the media is the only hope they have of getting their appeals printed in papers, not just in the United Kingdom but worldwide.
The McCanns put themselves on the front line and even though the press published stories that were totally false they still need the media to get the message home that Madeleine is missing.
If Amaral thinks it highly suspicious then he is totally mistaken. One thing the McCanns have shown is that the media can help you and in a way the McCanns have set a precedent on how to use social media on appeals for missing people.
A policeman may in his mind think the chances of finding a missing child, after 6 years alive, are pretty slim. But in his heart he prays and hopes his fears are unfounded. One thing they do NOT do is flaunt themselves on TV, write books that clearly state the child is dead.
And before people jump up and down saying Amaral has never said that Madeleine McCann is definitely dead, he has. The foreward in his book clearly states it.
Goncalo Amaral's actions in my opinion, has caused harm to the search. The anti McCanns, who hero-worship this ex-detective, are clear examples of how they believe everything he says and totally ignore the words of DCI Andy Redwood who states that Madeleine could be alive.
The McCann's course of action has nothing to do with being Brits but with a primal defense mechanism. When in danger freeze or fight forward. They chose to fight and are now paying for their idiocy.
Their choices were never made in order to find their daughter but to defend themselves, otherwise they would have listened to those that knew better than them. They were so afraid that they attempted to destroy any chance of their daughter being found. One can only wonder why.
In my opinion they fought back because there is some guilt feeling about the disappearance of the child.
What originated that guilt I do not know.
But their aggressiveness, their continuous need to be acknowledged by the Media, their desperation to find a scapegoat to attack, their constant work towards maintaining an image of victimized persons, when the true victim is systematically forgotten, is very telling.
If Madeleine's disappearance had not occurred in another country, I'm sure they would have been forensically scrutinized by now. But, and here you are right - some Brits are xenophobic disguised in proud - it's inadmissible for the British empowerment to accept the interference of another country, even when a child's life is at stake.
Like them you prefer to use a scapegoat instead of looking at the facts.
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I'm sure it's from the viewpoint of efficiency of an investigation. Information overload helps nobody, least of all the child.
It's probably what did happen in this case as police wouldn't have been prepared for the massive media and public involvement - no police in any country would have been.
It's easy for those not involved to criticise, but the officials on the ground have to rewrite the rules and think on their feet in high profile cases like these. It was exactly the same for British police at Soham.
Again the vital point is missed. Amaral is not specifying the McCann case as your post implies. His comment is general.
Are you suggesting as Amaral is that such campaigns are a waste of time and money?
Surely a missing child deserves whatever resources can be made available?
Do you, personally, believe such campaigns should be encouraged or discouraged?
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Again the vital point is missed. Amaral is not specifying the McCann case as your post implies. His comment is general.
Are you suggesting as Amaral is that such campaigns are a waste of time and money?
Surely a missing child deserves whatever resources can be made available?
Do you, personally, believe such campaigns should be encouraged or discouraged?
Managed is the word gilet. As I say information overload is the very worst thing that can happen.
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Managed is the word gilet. As I say information overload is the very worst thing that can happen.
Gerry indeed enjoyed the mass of information and reporting and misreporting so no one knew what was true or not, oh dear
>@@(*&)
thats me done for the night here
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The McCann's course of action has nothing to do with being Brits but with a primal defense mechanism. When in danger freeze or fight forward. They chose to fight and are now paying for their idiocy.
Their choices were never made in order to find their daughter but to defend themselves, otherwise they would have listened to those that knew better than them. They were so afraid that they attempted to destroy any chance of their daughter being found. One can only wonder why.
In my opinion they fought back because there is some guilt feeling about the disappearance of the child.
What originated that guilt I do not know.
But their aggressiveness, their continuous need to be acknowledged by the Media, their desperation to find a scapegoat to attack, their constant work towards maintaining an image of victimized persons, when the true victim is systematically forgotten, is very telling.
If Madeleine's disappearance had not occurred in another country, I'm sure they would have been forensically scrutinized by now. But, and here you are right - some Brits are xenophobic disguised in proud - it's inadmissible for the British empowerment to accept the interference of another country, even when a child's life is at stake.
Like them you prefer to use a scapegoat instead of looking at the facts.
This whole post is based on an assumption. And shows that you cannot accept other viewpoints.
DANGER?
What danger? Ah, yes you presume guilt.
And the only evidence you proffer?
Oh, they didn't listen to advice. What advice would that have been?
Advice from police not to issue information that the PJ had already issued perhaps?
Or was it a different kind of emotion?
Simple desperation about their missing child and yes, guilt for not having been there for her? The emotions which over and over again they have spoken of but which you (having already presumed their guilt) have refused to listen to.
And your recourse to the idea that xenophobia is the root of the McCanns actions is beneath contempt.
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Gerry indeed enjoyed the mass of information and reporting and misreporting so no one knew what was true or not, oh dear
>@@(*&)
thats me done for the night here
I think that's very much Mr Amaral's view Red >@@(*&)
But 'tis just a theory (in case Isabel Duarte is reading)
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Managed is the word gilet. As I say information overload is the very worst thing that can happen.
You swerved the question.
Do you disagree with Amaral and believe that these media campaigns are a good thing (as they clearly do sometimes lead to the child being found) or do you agree with the man and think they are a waste of time and money?
And if you want to pursue the question of management, then do you acknowledge that as amateurs, the McCanns had no option but to attempt to manage the campaign and as soon as possible bring in professional help because the Portuguese Police were not going to do it?
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If Anne is bilingual why are her reports posted to John to translate?
Is it ok to use the words pros and [ censored word]?
I said she was bilingual, I didn't say she was 100% proficient in English. John doesn't translate them, he edits them since a literal translation from Portuguese to English would make for difficult reading.
Everybody uses the terms pros and [ censored word] so it seems to be acceptable.
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Gerry indeed enjoyed the mass of information and reporting and misreporting so no one knew what was true or not, oh dear
>@@(*&)
thats me done for the night here
What an appalling thing to say!
your posting of an implication that there was a campaign of misinformation without providing a shred of evidence for that is what I have come to expect from anti McCanns.
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I said she was bilingual, I didn't say she was 100% proficient in English. John doesn't translate them, he edits them since a literal translation from Portuguese to English would make for difficult reading.
Everybody uses the terms pros and [ censored word] so it seems to be acceptable.
Well even though it is a very intriguing way of coming to a report, its the best that anyone has, as a record so far of what went on in the court room.
But I am glad you are not trying to claim that she is 100% proficient in English. That would be a step too far. My view is that her English is pretty good, especially when she does not try to over-impress.
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You swerved the question.
Do you disagree with Amaral and believe that these media campaigns are a good thing (as they clearly do sometimes lead to the child being found) or do you agree with the man and think they are a waste of time and money?
And if you want to pursue the question of management, then do you acknowledge that as amateurs, the McCanns had no option but to attempt to manage the campaign and as soon as possible bring in professional help because the Portuguese Police were not going to do it?
As soon as possible? There was a small army of advisors, diplomats, PR etc. there within a day. And British TV and another army of journalists were there by the next day.
I'd like to see the actual comments of Mr Amaral and/or his colleagues that you are referring to.
The police clearly didn't like doing press conferences the way British police do, but as has been pointed out Portuguese TV and papers were certainly publicising the disappearance. But by the Saturday the police were in the middle of a media occupation, and they clearly weren't ready for that - no police anywhere would be: the case was unprecedented.
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What an appalling thing to say!
your posting of an implication that there was a campaign of misinformation without providing a shred of evidence for that is what I have come to expect from anti McCanns.
HIS WORDS not mine!
And I dont give a hoot what you expect or not
Seeing as you are so aufait with the case you will KNOW where he said that! Give you 24 hours to find it then I mighthave to come and take u out your misery, se ya now
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As soon as possible? There was a small army of advisors, diplomats, PR etc. there within a day. And British TV and another army of journalists were there by the next day.
I'd like to see the actual comments of Mr Amaral and/or his colleagues that you are referring to.
The police clearly didn't like doing press conferences the way British police do, but as has been pointed out Portuguese TV and papers were certainly publicising the disappearance. But by the Saturday the police were in the middle of a media occupation, and they clearly weren't ready for that - no police anywhere would be: the case was unprecedented.
The initial advisors were brought in by OC and Mark Warner. Management by the McCanns came later.
The actual comments are in the OP.
I am sorry but I simply disagree with the conclusion of your last paragraph. I believe that some other Police forces would have done the managing of the initial media storm and that would have benefited everyone.
I see you have swerved the question again by asking to see the comments from Amaral which are in the OP. I will refrain from repeating the question till you have read the OP and come back.
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HIS WORDS not mine!
And I dont give a hoot what you expect or not
Seeing as you are so aufait with the case you will KNOW where he said that! Give you 24 hours to find it then I mighthave to come and take u out your misery, se ya now
Seriously?
You think Gerry referred to himself?
This is what you are referring to. Are you seriously trying to say that Gerry said these words? You really are being rather silly in suggesting that.
Gerry indeed enjoyed the mass of information and reporting and misreporting so no one knew what was true or not, oh dear
>@@(*&)
thats me done for the night here
It is you, in that post, implying that there was a deliberate attempt to misinform and it is you who is still failing to provide evidence for that claim.
My expectations have been reinforced once again.
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The initial advisors were brought in by OC and Mark Warner. Management by the McCanns came later.
The actual comments are in the OP.
I am sorry but I simply disagree with the conclusion of your last paragraph. I believe that some other Police forces would have done the managing of the initial media storm and that would have benefited everyone.
I see you have swerved the question again by asking to see the comments from Amaral which are in the OP. I will refrain from repeating the question till you have read the OP and come back.
Yes, he means the efficiency of investigations. But he was a policeman from a previous generation, before the internet, phones etc. Thinking is probably a lot different now.
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The initial advisors were brought in by OC and Mark Warner. Management by the McCanns came later.
The actual comments are in the OP.
I am sorry but I simply disagree with the conclusion of your last paragraph. I believe that some other Police forces would have done the managing of the initial media storm and that would have benefited everyone.
I see you have swerved the question again by asking to see the comments from Amaral which are in the OP. I will refrain from repeating the question till you have read the OP and come back.
But he might have a point though? If everybody takes photos with their phones of every blonde haired child they see in the street, police would be forever chasing those leads and get nothing else done. Information overload.
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It's obviously not an easy job gilet, and one with huge responsibility and stress when an event like Madeleine's disappearance happens. They can only do what they think is the right thing, and try their best.
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Yes, he means the efficiency of investigations. But he was a policeman from a previous generation, before the internet, phones etc. Thinking is probably a lot different now.
Possibly his training was pre-internet but I suspect phones were available then even in Portugal. :)
But I am not simply talking about phones or the internet. The big media then was television and there is no evidence whatsoever in the early stages that the PJ made any attempt to manage any kind of campaign via television. They were very badly prepared for it and I honestly think forces in other countries would have dealt with the situation better.
Do you really think the way in which the PJ would handle the case has now changed? What evidence do you have for thinking that or do you just hope it has changed?
The crucial point though is whether the collation and interpretation of information by the police which could save the life of a missing child is a waste of time and effort as Amaral states?
I will now repeat the question as you still have avoided it.
Do you think Amaral is right or do you think that such campaigns are valuable and should be encouraged?
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But he might have a point though? If everybody takes photos with their phones of every blonde haired child they see in the street, police would be forever chasing those leads and get nothing else done. Information overload.
That is why it should be a police-managed campaign. They can guide the public better than the emotional and desperate parents who will plead and beg that every scrap of information, however miniscule the connection to the child might be, should be sent in.
That is how our Police in the UK, for example, handle the situation. They ask for specific kinds of information which have most relevance. And we do not find UK police simply shrugging their shoulders and saying that the task is a waste of effort and money. They go that step further for missing children.
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Possibly his training was pre-internet but I suspect phones were available then even in Portugal. :)
But I am not simply talking about phones or the internet. The big media then was television and there is no evidence whatsoever in the early stages that the PJ made any attempt to manage any kind of campaign via television. They were very badly prepared for it and I honestly think forces in other countries would have dealt with the situation better.
Do you really think the way in which the PJ would handle the case has now changed? What evidence do you have for thinking that or do you just hope it has changed?
The crucial point though is whether the collation and interpretation of information by the police which could save the life of a missing child is a waste of time and effort as Amaral states?
I will now repeat the question as you still have avoided it.
Do you think Amaral is right or do you think that such campaigns are valuable and should be encouraged?
I mean mobile phones of course 8(0(*
I have answered the question - information overload is the biggest worry for an investigation. It's a balance between appealing for information and being able to deal with it efficiently.
It's exactly the same problem for any police anywhere in the world.
Police will also have to consider if a missing child has been kidnapped for ransom, and if they believe so then publicity may not be the best thing. I think the PJ considered this in Madeleine's case?
It's not as easy as you seem to be thinking.
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It's obviously not an easy job gilet, and one with huge responsibility and stress when an event like Madeleine's disappearance happens. They can only do what they think is the right thing, and try their best.
It most certainly is not an easy job.
But the logical conclusion from Amaral's remarks is that campaigns to involve the public are a waste of time and effort. That simply is not true as shown by the two cases (there are more I can post) where such campaigns have had resounding success.
Do you think UK police would agree with Amaral or do you think they would want such campaigns to take place?
Do you agree with Amaral or do you think such campaigns are valuable?
And do you agree that they are best managed by the police and it was this lack of police leadership which caused some of the problems in the McCann case?
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I mean mobile phones of course 8(0(*
I have answered the question - information overload is the biggest worry for an investigation. It's a balance between appealing for information and being able to deal with it efficiently.
It's exactly the same problem for any police anywhere in the world.
Police will also have to consider if a missing child has been kidnapped for ransom, and if they believe so then publicity may not be the best thing. I think the PJ considered this in Madeleine's case?
It's not as easy as you seem to be thinking.
I am not thinking it is easy at all. It is probably one of the most difficult tasks in policing but it is not (in my view) as Amaral says a waste of time and money.
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That is why it should be a police-managed campaign. They can guide the public better than the emotional and desperate parents who will plead and beg that every scrap of information, however miniscule the connection to the child might be, should be sent in.
That is how our Police in the UK, for example, handle the situation. They ask for specific kinds of information which have most relevance. And we do not find UK police simply shrugging their shoulders and saying that the task is a waste of effort and money. They go that step further for missing children.
There are plenty who say the police made a lot of mistakes in the recent case in Wales. They also made mistakes in the Soham case, and had to ask for help eventually.
The task is not as easy as you are thinking.
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It most certainly is not an easy job.
But the logical conclusion from Amaral's remarks is that campaigns to involve the public are a waste of time and effort. That simply is not true as shown by the two cases (there are more I can post) where such campaigns have had resounding success.
Do you think UK police would agree with Amaral or do you think they would want such campaigns to take place?
Do you agree with Amaral or do you think such campaigns are valuable?
And do you agree that they are best managed by the police and it was this lack of police leadership which caused some of the problems in the McCann case?
You said it yourself - police appeal to the public when they have specific information to relate or something specific to ask for.
I've no doubt Portuguese police do the same.
I've also no doubt they will admit mistakes were made in this case. But I suspect you won't agree that a considerable factor in that was the British media - online and their presence in Portugal.
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I am not thinking it is easy at all. It is probably one of the most difficult tasks in policing but it is not (in my view) as Amaral says a waste of time and money.
Don't forget Madeleine's picture was all over the internet within a day. Police had already lost control by that point.
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As Anne is French I understand that translations would be difficult.
Which is why I don't accept her reports.
Thank you for saying we can say pro or anti. I thought that was unacceptable here.
I bet you read them though!! Such a hypocrite.
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Two things are true when it comes to the abduction of very young children.
1. More often than not it is a family member who is involved.
2. They are seldom found alive if gone for any length of time.
I will add, I don't believe there has ever been a case where a 3 year old western child has disappeared and been found alive 6 or more years later. It just doesn't happen which renders SY's comments weak as water.
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Don't forget Madeleine's picture was all over the internet within a day. Police had already lost control by that point.
Exactly.
Police should have taken control from the first hour, not simply lose control of the situation entirely.
There was no attempt to control anything by the police, they just let it all happen.
And when two parents are desperate to find a missing child and can see that the police are doing nothing but sending out a press release, not arranging online appeals etc, then its hardly surprising that those parents take things into their own hands is it?
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Two things are true when it comes to the abduction of very young children.
1. More often than not it is a family member who is involved.
2. They are seldom found alive if gone for any length of time.
I will add, I don't believe there has ever been a case where a 3 year old western child has disappeared and been found alive 6 or more years later. It just doesn't happen which renders SY's comments weak as water.
None of that is actually relevant to this topic.
The question is do you believe, as Amaral tells us he and his colleagues do, that the effort made by police having to sift through all the information from a public appeal is worthless? Should we, on that basis, not allow public appeals for missing children of any age?
When there are clear examples of the success of such appeals then I think he is wrong and that the effort is of great value.
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Two things are true when it comes to the abduction of very young children.
1. More often than not it is a family member who is involved.
2. They are seldom found alive if gone for any length of time.
I will add, I don't believe there has ever been a case where a 3 year old western child has disappeared and been found alive 6 or more years later. It just doesn't happen which renders SY's comments weak as water.
How about a 7 year old child? Who would have been just 3 years older than Madeleine.
From the Steven Stayner Foundation
"When it comes to finding abducted children, most people think of posters and milk cartons. Photographs are very important in finding abducted children. But to depend on pictures alone is a big mistake.
"That is because the pictures may not reach the isolated areas where abductors take children, but also because children change and abductors can easily change a child's appearance.
"I believe the single most important thing you can do to help find abducted children is to be aware of the problem and keep an eye out for suspicious 'family' situations around you.
"For starters, many abductors are men appearing as single parents, with one child. They intentionally choose to live in isolated areas and are generally not socially active.
"You should know that the first thing abductors often do is convince the child that their parents don't want them. My abductor faked phone calls to my parents. He actually told me he went to court to get legal custody. I was seven. I had nowhere else to turn. I eventually accepted the lie as reality.
"The next stage was adapting for survival. This meant doing anything to avoid punishment. I actually helped my abductor keep the secret.
"So don't expect abducted children to come up and ask for help. They're totally dependent on their abductors. And if they're being sexually abused, which is usually the case, the last thing they want is to draw attention to it.
"I trusted no one. My greatest fear was that someone would find out the truth and confront my 'father'. I didn't know what he'd do. As bad as things were, I knew it could get worse.
"To survive, abducted children must learn to lie. When people would ask me about my past, I made it up. I now assume people knew I was lying, but no one ever tried to find out why.
"Throughout the seven years, we were constantly moving. We lived in five different towns, in a dozen houses and trailer homes. The minute my abductor felt people were getting too close, we'd pack up. That kind of movement is typical of abductions. So is a child who's not enrolled in school.
"My abductor was careful and made sure I was always enrolled. If people paid attention to my relationship with my 'father' there were clues that something was wrong. It was not a normal father-son relationship. And among other things, at 13, I was taller than, and looked nothing like, my 'father'.
"You should know that most abductors are pedophiles, not psychotic killers. They don't have good relationships with adults. They start out molesting children and graduate to longer abductions. And when they murder children, often it's to get rid of the evidence.
"As is often the case, there were people involved with my abductor who knew the truth. These people could have saved me at any time, but were afraid of legal trouble. You should know that in other cases where people have come forward to save a child, they have not been prosecuted. These people often hold the power of life and death.
"Before I was grabbed, my abductor had been convicted of child molesting. Throughout my abduction, he never stopped molesting other children. Even so, after taking me from my home, abusing me for seven years and abducting another 5-year old, he served only three and one-half years in jail.
"Today, no one knows how many missing children are dead or how many now live as I did. But if you're going to help, you have to be aware of the real nature of stranger abduction and be committed to helping children. While it may be hard for you to tell an abducted child from an abused child, it's not hard to tell a child in trouble. And it's not hard to do something about it. If you know of, or suspect, there's a situation where a child is in trouble, please call the police."
http://www.stevenstaynerfoundation.com/stevens-legacy.php
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OK from the OP, this is, I assume the relevant passage from the link given to Amarals book
During this time, the Leicestershire police continue to receive a considerable number of enquiries that they have trouble sorting and analysing. On May 15th, inspector Ricardo Paiva is sent as reinforcement to the English, who, he says, welcome him warmly and feed him on tea and cakes. Most of the bits of information received from all over the world are of no interest; so, there is no reason for follow-up. People allegedly recognise Madeleine or claim to know exactly where she is, seers, clairvoyants send very confused messages to the police, some well-intentioned, others less so... Rapidly, the sophisticated computer system for managing calls is overloaded. So much effort and so much money spent financing the appeals in the press for witnesses leaves us wondering; we are not convinced of the pertinence of this method that consists of requesting help from the population to resolve a case.
perhaps this extract from the Legal Summary explains things and ia not a statement about whether there should be publicity or not, but that it should be controlled!
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
During the following days, with the participation of more than 100 PJ investigators, the enormous amount of diverse news about the disappearance was explored, numerous inquiries being carried out.
With the multiplication of supposed sightings and locations, Apenso V was opened to systemise the reports indicating the alleged presence of the girl in various locations around the world as well as the hundreds of inquiries made to confithem. This annex is composed of 14 volumes.
The disappearance of the British girl, under the circumstances mentioned previously, implied the involvement of the most diverse entities, especially the intervention of the PJ, which was joined by other police authorities. In parallel, this disappearance drew the unprecedented attention of the national and international media, with particular emphasis in the UK during the following days in their peak hour news bulletins, with live reporting from Praia da Luz, as well as programmes specially dedicated to the issue.
Meanwhile, the girl’s parents dedicated themselves to making the most diverse contacts and appeals, divulging images of Madeleine, whilst the British authorities opened a permanent and specialised contact line in order to gather information regarding the disappearance, in addition to information from Interpol and other police partners.
This activity (divulgation), as well as the informative aspects coming from the media, aimed to obtain, within the shortest possible period of time, information that would help the investigation in two ways: finding Madeleine alive and the compilation of material concerning the concrete circumstances of her disappearance.
The public’s desire to collaborate meant that by means of the most diverse sources and varying means, focussed mainly upon communications directly sent to the police, the PJ received the most varied information.
From 04-05-2007 onwards, initially with a disproportionate rhythm, the PJ was sent thousands of reports of sightings and locations covering the whole of Portugal and multiple locations abroad, from neighbouring Spain to faraway Indonesia and Singapore, the missing girl having been “recognised” in the most varied locations, in multiple situations and company, in such a way that one the same day she was supposedly sighted in locations at a distance of 4.000 km apart.
Some of the information was lacking in any credibility because of the circumstances involved, the remaining information requiring systematisation and due follow-up.
There is a remaining diffused “stain” of sightings and locations (some gaining media coverage, such as those in Belgium and Morocco) that contained scarce, vague, contradictory, incompatible or incongruent elements that merited a treatment whereby, in the future, linked to more solid elements, they could be touched on and resuscitated, and which are also contained in the files.
Those that due to their geography and spatial-time relevance, could be credible were duly explored and included in the main body of the files and respective annex.
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Only the McCann didn't see the press release that the PJ made early morning in the 4th of May, alerting for the disappearance of the child and with the exhibition of a picture, that was kept for months.
What the PJ condemned was the release of specific traits like the eye, the brown spot in one of the legs,...because it could lead the "abductor" to harm the child.
Then why does the PJ website post distinguishing features of missing people?
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Then why does the PJ website post distinguishing features of missing people?
Do you not agree there's a difference between information on a police website and worldwide professional publicity campaigns?
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How about a 7 year old child? Who would have been just 3 years older than Madeleine.
From the Steven Stayner Foundation
http://www.stevenstaynerfoundation.com/stevens-legacy.php
I find this bit important:
"As is often the case, there were people involved with my abductor who knew the truth. These people could have saved me at any time, but were afraid of legal trouble. You should know that in other cases where people have come forward to save a child, they have not been prosecuted. These people often hold the power of life and death.
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Then why does the PJ website post distinguishing features of missing people?
A very good question and when combined with the fact that it was in fact the PJ who first released the information about Madeleine's eye, makes Luz's post sound rather ridiculous.
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Do you not agree there's a difference between information on a police website and worldwide professional publicity campaigns?
In general there is a massive difference between these two things. But not in this situation.
Don't you think that it quite possible that a concerned abductor would be specifically monitoring everything he could see that the police were doing/saying? In that case the website is as equally crucial as other media.
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I find this bit important:
"As is often the case, there were people involved with my abductor who knew the truth. These people could have saved me at any time, but were afraid of legal trouble. You should know that in other cases where people have come forward to save a child, they have not been prosecuted. These people often hold the power of life and death.
Extremely important.
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A very good question and when combined with the fact that it was in fact the PJ who first released the information about Madeleine's eye, makes Luz's post sound rather ridiculous.
You'll have evidence for this claim then...?
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You'll have evidence for this claim then...?
Still looking for the evidence on this? Or given up yet?