UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: simong on March 29, 2012, 11:47:31 PM
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
Bamber made this up to establish his albi ... he asked the police to pick him up but they told him to drive to the farm. He drove really slowly so he could arrive there after the police
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
Who knows ... I think he killed the twins in their sleep then burst in on his parents firing.
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
Nevill was very strong and fit and Bamber had run out of bullets ... Nevill was either going for the phone to call the police or to activate the panic button that was downstairs. I personally think Nevill chased bamber who was going downstairs to reload
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
June's pushbike which was found at Bamber's cottage with no reason for it being there. Who would be seen in country lanes in the early hours of the morning?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
Just my opinions mate .... keep the questions coming as it's good to test our beliefs!
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
Bamber made this up to establish his albi ... he asked the police to pick him up but they told him to drive to the farm. He drove really slowly so he could arrive there after the police
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
Who knows ... I think he killed the twins in their sleep then burst in on his parents firing.
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
Nevill was very strong and fit and Bamber had run out of bullets ... Nevill was either going for the phone to call the police or to activate the panic button that was downstairs. I personally think Nevill chased bamber who was going downstairs to reload
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
June's pushbike which was found at Bamber's cottage with no reason for it being there. Who would be seen in country lanes in the early hours of the morning?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
Just my opinions mate .... keep the questions coming as it's good to test our beliefs!
Its nice to be able to ask questions.
The phonecall seems a very odd way of establishing an alibi. I have ridiculed it for a year now. A father calling his son whilst allowing his daughter to wander around the house with a gun, is naive at best, as the basis of your alibi for a multiple murder. Surely Bamber would know how bad the phonecall and the alleged dialogue would look. I have never understood this.
Having driven along the route he took from his house, he would have seen the police coming. You can see car headlights miles away. You would definately see flashing lights. Maybe he geniunely didn't want to arrive first and slowed down for that reason.
The point i am trying to make about Nevill is that, he battered him in the kitchen and reloaded, why not attack him with the gun in the bedroom and then go and reload. Nevill's injuries happened, to me out of neccessity because Nevill competed hard for control of the situation and took a hell of kicking before his body gave out. Maybe Nevill gained possession of the weapon in a struggle in the bedroom and chased the killer with the gun. Which would add some credence to the possibility of a phonecall to Jeremy. Just a theory 8-)(--)
I have always acknowledged the possibility of the cycle journey and unlike others i do think it is possible but i also feel it is unlikely. Just doesn't do it for me i am afraid.
If you believe in the positions of the shell casings found, the killer would have been inside the room when shooting, certainly for Sheila and towards the centre of the bed for Nevill and June's shots. Shell case positions after EP traped through the house are pretty unreliable to me.
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The shell positions are pretty spot on Simon. If the odd shell casing had been trod on it would probably be displaced a short distance if at all. The general distribution of the shell casings and the bullets gives the position of the killer away quite nicely. We know he stood over the boys to shoot them. We know he shot Nevill and June from a distance before going in for the kill with close range shots. We finally know that Sheila was shot with the gun against her neck so as to give the appearance of a suicide.
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
Bamber made this up to establish his albi ... he asked the police to pick him up but they told him to drive to the farm. He drove really slowly so he could arrive there after the police
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
Who knows ... I think he killed the twins in their sleep then burst in on his parents firing.
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
Nevill was very strong and fit and Bamber had run out of bullets ... Nevill was either going for the phone to call the police or to activate the panic button that was downstairs. I personally think Nevill chased bamber who was going downstairs to reload
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
June's pushbike which was found at Bamber's cottage with no reason for it being there. Who would be seen in country lanes in the early hours of the morning?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
Just my opinions mate .... keep the questions coming as it's good to test our beliefs!
Its nice to be able to ask questions.
The phonecall seems a very odd way of establishing an alibi. I have ridiculed it for a year now. A father calling his son whilst allowing his daughter to wander around the house with a gun, is naive at best, as the basis of your alibi for a multiple murder. Surely Bamber would know how bad the phonecall and the alleged dialogue would look. I have never understood this.
Having driven along the route he took from his house, he would have seen the police coming. You can see car headlights miles away. You would definately see flashing lights. Maybe he geniunely didn't want to arrive first and slowed down for that reason.
The point i am trying to make about Nevill is that, he battered him in the kitchen and reloaded, why not attack him with the gun in the bedroom and then go and reload. Nevill's injuries happened, to me out of neccessity because Nevill competed hard for control of the situation and took a hell of kicking before his body gave out. Maybe Nevill gained possession of the weapon in a struggle in the bedroom and chased the killer with the gun. Which would add some credence to the possibility of a phonecall to Jeremy. Just a theory 8-)(--)
I have always acknowledged the possibility of the cycle journey and unlike others i do think it is possible but i also feel it is unlikely. Just doesn't do it for me i am afraid.
If you believe in the positions of the shell casings found, the killer would have been inside the room when shooting, certainly for Sheila and towards the centre of the bed for Nevill and June's shots. Shell case positions after EP traped through the house are pretty unreliable to me.
Simon I am trying to work out what your stance is and from what I gather I would guess you either think a third party did the murders or a third party and Bamber did them together. I am not quite clear though .... may I ask if you have a definite position on this?
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
It was suggested as a joke here that Julie Mugford told him to call the police with that story when he called to tell her things had gone wrong (fight with Neville and 2 shots to Sheila). They couldn't trust plod to come to the conclusion that the lunatic sister had done it on their own now could they? Maybe it's not such a joke.
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
It was suggested as a joke here that Julie Mugford told him to call the police with that story when he called to tell her things had gone wrong (fight with Neville and 2 shots to Sheila). They couldn't trust plod to come to the conclusion that the lunatic sister had done it on their own now could they? Maybe it's not such a joke.
I was that joker Weety and I agree maybe it wasn't so far from the mark.Bamber in a blind panic because he had to shoot Sheila twice calls Julie and Julie says call the police yourself and establish your albi by being at home in Goldhanger?
Far more plausible than Nelly/Tesko theories!
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
I can't see Jeremy pulling off those murders on his own. I just can't see it - and I can't see some other outsider (hitman) doing it either. The only way I can accept that Jeremy is the murderer is if he had an accomplice. Too daunting a task to go inside alone and have to deal with three adults.
Why would Jeremy shoot the boys first? They posed the least "threat" to his alledged mission. It seems that they were shot first, because they didn't wake up - although childred can sleep through a lot, I don't think they would sleep through loud shootings and screams probably (horrible to think about.)
Why use so many shots on two sleeping boys, eight all in all?
When I think about the murders, I always think, where was Sheila during the shootings? Where was she, what was she doing - why didn't she escape? One shooter couldn't control three people in two different rooms (if we assume that Sheila was in her bedroom when the shootings began). I can't make Sheila fit in - unless she was indeed the shooter.
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For the sake of debate, Mike constantly posts up his theories of how Sheila carried out the killings. I have always doubted JB carrying out the killings himself for numerous reasons. I would enjoy hearing theories of how he actually did this.
My own doubts......
1. The phonecall from Nevill.....He didn't need to invent this part of his story so why did he?
2. How did he congregate and subdue three adults so that he could shoot them in the same room?
3. Why was Nevill allowed to get downstairs?
4. How did he get back to his house without being seen?
I have loads more but i can't remember them all.
I can't see Jeremy pulling off those murders on his own. I just can't see it - and I can't see some other outsider (hitman) doing it either. The only way I can accept that Jeremy is the murderer is if he had an accomplice. Too daunting a task to go inside alone and have to deal with three adults.
Why would Jeremy shoot the boys first? They posed the least "threat" to his alledged mission. It seems that they were shot first, because they didn't wake up - although childred can sleep through a lot, I don't think they would sleep through loud shootings and screams probably (horrible to think about.)
Why use so many shots on two sleeping boys, eight all in all?
When I think about the murders, I always think, where was Sheila during the shootings? Where was she, what was she doing - why didn't she escape? One shooter couldn't control three people in two different rooms (if we assume that Sheila was in her bedroom when the shootings began). I can't make Sheila fit in - unless she was indeed the shooter.
Its strange abs but I was just thinking about the same thing today. The comments by David Boutflour about her not having a hair out of place only serves to heighten my interest on the point. Why did Sheila look so relaxed in that photo of her taken by the police photographer before anyone disturbed the scene? If Sheila had been alive throughout would she not have been in a state of fear?
Like you abs I have been trying to work out where Sheila fitted into the events. If she was alive after June and Nevill were attacked why did she not go to June when the killer went downstairs to finish off Nevill? If she was alive why did she not attend to her sons? I wonder if there is any evidence that Sheila had been incapacitated in some way maybe with some form of anaesthesia before being moved to the bedroom and shot?
I honestly feel that she was shot while unconscious, her facial expression certainly points that way. What do the rest of you think?
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I really haven't seen enough dead people to know whether an apparent facial expression means anything at all. I imagine that at the point of death the muscles relax, and any expression just disappears. That seemed to be the case in the few I've seen anyway.
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Maybe I didn't explain it properly Weety. Sheila would have been distraught if she had still been alive and conscious when the twins were shot. There would have been floods of tears which would have left tell tale marks behind on her face. There were none. There was also no sign that either twin had been disturbed after having been shot.
Traces of cannabis was found by the pathologist who examined Sheila, could she have been drugged?
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Maybe I didn't explain it properly Weety. Sheila would have been distraught if she had still been alive and conscious when the twins were shot. There would have been floods of tears which would have left tell tale marks behind on her face. There were none. There was also no sign that either twin had been disturbed after having been shot.
Traces of cannabis was found by the pathologist who examined Sheila, could she have been drugged?
It was very little cannabis that was found, I think.
You are right about her looking peaceful - and that seems so strange to me too. If she was not the shooter, and she knew her sons were shot, yes, she would have cried! I never thought about that.
To me her hair looks as if it is freshly washed and not combed after the washing.
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Something just hasn't fallen into place yet. Sheila didn't have any bruising on her so she wasn't restrained as such, the only thing I can think of was that she had something like chloroform used on her to keep her out of the picture while June and Nevill were dealt with. I am also suspicious that Sheila was moved while unconscious from her bedroom to the master bedroom where she was shot.
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Something just hasn't fallen into place yet. Sheila didn't have any bruising on her so she wasn't restrained as such, the only thing I can think of was that she had something like chloroform used on her to keep her out of the picture while June and Nevill were dealt with. I am also suspicious that Sheila was moved while unconscious from her bedroom to the master bedroom where she was shot.
Possibly, but to me that seems a little complicated. And why transpost her to her parents´ bedroom, what is the logic in that?
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Something just hasn't fallen into place yet. Sheila didn't have any bruising on her so she wasn't restrained as such, the only thing I can think of was that she had something like chloroform used on her to keep her out of the picture while June and Nevill were dealt with. I am also suspicious that Sheila was moved while unconscious from her bedroom to the master bedroom where she was shot.
She did have gouge marks on her arm, though, which had bled. It looks like she was grabbed and pulled. She had obviously been in bed before the killings started. As had Ralph, you can see the indentation from his head on the pillow, although I know at one stage Mike said Ralph had never been to bed. And I want to reiterate the point about the tampon case found in the lounge. It still had half the tampon in it, it had not been used by Sheila. It was NOT the one in place when she died. It had been used for something else.
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And just in case anyone new to the case has come to this forum to help them in their research, can I point out that Matthew MacDonald did NOT have a "cast iron" alibi, just a statement from a girlfriend that was never followed up or fully investigated, and Sheila had no expirated blood on her face, proving that she was unconscious after the first shot, she did not move, run from the kitchen, get off the bed, regain consciousness AT ALL after the first shot to her throat. If the second shot had been caused by a "hair trigger" (which is the latest theory) it would have shot away from her chin as the gun slipped, not defied gravity and risen higher. Hope this helps.
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Something just hasn't fallen into place yet. Sheila didn't have any bruising on her so she wasn't restrained as such, the only thing I can think of was that she had something like chloroform used on her to keep her out of the picture while June and Nevill were dealt with. I am also suspicious that Sheila was moved while unconscious from her bedroom to the master bedroom where she was shot.
She did have gouge marks on her arm, though, which had bled. It looks like she was grabbed and pulled. She had obviously been in bed before the killings started. As had Ralph, you can see the indentation from his head on the pillow, although I know at one stage Mike said Ralph had never been to bed. And I want to reiterate the point about the tampon case found in the lounge. It still had half the tampon in it, it had not been used by Sheila. It was NOT the one in place when she died. It had been used for something else.
Hi shona. I haven´t seen gouge marks on Sheila´s arm. Where do you see them?
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Hallo, Abs!! If you look at Sheila's arm, just above her wrist, there are clearly small wounds to her arm that have bled. The blood runs down. IMO, Ralph had the same wounds on his arm, though I know you disagree. I think they were both grabbed and pulled. What do you think? xx
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Hallo, Abs!! If you look at Sheila's arm, just above her wrist, there are clearly small wounds to her arm that have bled. The blood runs down. IMO, Ralph had the same wounds on his arm, though I know you disagree. I think they were both grabbed and pulled. What do you think? xx
Bearing in mind Ralph's skin was older, and thinner, and he obviously bruised more easily.
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The sequence of events is still a bit uncertain. Are we all agreed that the killer entered the main bedroom and shot Nevill and June there? We know Nevill managed to get downstairs probably desperate to reach the phone. We know he was hit with the rifle and a further assault on him ensued. My question for you all is what was Sheila doing whilst this was going on? I also think Jeremy had an accomplice because I cannot see him being able to get into the house and being able to overcome 5 people including two children on his own and without the children waking.
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I think sheila was in bed, the twins were shot while they slept so they made no noise.
She has probably woken when her parents were being killed, but was frozen with fear for a while, then has crept from her bed slowly, not wanting to make a noise incase she was heard, hence the bed clothes hadnt been thrown back.
As for when she was murdered, im not sure. None of us are!
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In my opinion it needed two intruders to control the situation properly or the entire attempt could have ended in farce. I have a feeling that one intruder kept Sheila at bay while Nevill was being assaulted downstairs. I don't believe that Sheila ever knew the twins had been killed or she would have been impossible to control. Shona is right about the gouge marks on her as well.
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I agree, sheila would have been hysterical.
There was no blood on her feet, so was she killed before her parents? Had she been killed after there would have been blood on her feet where she forced into her parents room, as we know there was a lot of blood on the floor. Its hard trying to guess the order in which they were killed. But i think its safe to say the twins were shot first.
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I think sheila was in bed, the twins were shot while they slept so they made no noise.
She has probably woken when her parents were being killed, but was frozen with fear for a while, then has crept from her bed slowly, not wanting to make a noise incase she was heard, hence the bed clothes hadnt been thrown back.
As for when she was murdered, im not sure. None of us are!
This totally works for me, Sheila being literally petrfied. Don't forget that JB specifically asked Sheila when she and the boys were next visiting the farm, a question that he'd never bothered to ask before. He had NEVER asked that question before, normally he couldn't give a shit. So why did he suddenly need to know? Why did it matter so much? Because it worked for him. He had been planning it for months, JM's diaries prove that.
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Its hard to imagine what it must have been like in WHF that night/ morning, the fear, the screams and sound of gunshot. Unimaginable for that poor family.
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An accomplice could have helped to get Jeremy to and fro from the farm, he could have made the call to Jeremy's house and to the local police station at Maldon knowing it was unmanned at that time and got rid of bloodied clothing and gloves. It is also worth considering that maybe it wasn't Jeremy who fought with Nevill since Jeremy had only a couple of small marks on him.
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We will never know who died when, though jb did ask police the order in which they died he said because it affected the wills. Thats why he killed the children, he wanted EVERY single penny to himself.
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Its hard to imagine what it must have been like in WHF that night/ morning, the fear, the screams and sound of gunshot. Unimaginable for that poor family.
Sadly, the wallpaper behind the boys had to be removed, because of back spatter. And Sheila would have been covered with it. Close contact shots. But the only blood on Sheila's nightie was her own, proving that she never moved after the first shot. It was just a normal family, and Sheila adored and took pride in those boys.
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Shona my post above number 22, what do you think, About sheila having no blood on her feet?
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8-)(--). Does anyone else think that it would have taken two attackers to control the situation properly?
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It would have been easier with two people yes.
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I have always thought that Sheila was taken into June and Nevills bedroom at gunpoint, forced to kneel on the floor on Nevill's side of the bed/room and was shot first with one bullet (the supposed non fatal wound). You would have to congregate all the adults together to have full control of the situation. I also think there was only one person involved.
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Thats what i imagine happened si, sheila was knelt on the floor but being forced to lean right back so she is resting on her shins. Then shes shot.
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I reckon thats why June struggled round to that side of the bedroom, to see if she could help Sheila.
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Do you think June was killed last with the shot between the eyes as he left the bedroom? Sheila already dead.
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Do you think June was killed last with the shot between the eyes as he left the bedroom? Sheila already dead.
June or the twins were killed last. June's final moments were horrific. Kneecapped and shot between the eyes, probably looking at her killer. That seems like someone in control of the situation, almost prolonging the suffering for enjoyment.
The twins deaths were controlled, eight rounds used when only two were needed. Seems to me like the killer was not worried about needing any additional bullets for anyone else.
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I have always thought the twins were shot first, i cant see the twins sleeping through the noise.
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Mine would Andi. Our smoke alarm is outside their room and they have slept through it going off, on and on for over 15 minutes. I imagine the whole incident at WHF was over quicker than that.
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Well, yes it is possible they slept through the noise. But we will never know.
What did you think of the documentary on thursday si ?
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I'm of the view that Jeremy may be innocent.
Let's look at Sheila - the model.
Imagine she has killed the family.....she may have been covered in blood, however, having a bath or shower, would easily resolve that problem.
She is the sole survivor, she bathes, does her hair and applies make up. She is preparing for the final Act. Suicide. Her thinking is not 'normal', after all, she has (supposedly) just massacred her entire family - barr Jeremy.
The police are outside, she is well aware they want to speak to her. She could at this stage, have begun to 'come to' and realise the full enormity of what has happened - and what is about to occur soon (armed police will enter and she will be looking at a life sentence behind bars).
Her choices are limited. The thought of life imprisonment is not an option right now - after all, her dear sons are no longer with her. The 'better alternative' is to now go and be with her sons, and the rest of her family.
Being the model, it is important she look her best - to those who find her and for her sons when she next sees them.
I can see no problem in Sheila 'preparing' herself for what is to come. Sadly.
This post may seem quite odd and irrational, but if Sheila 'did' do this, we can all agree her thinking was not that of a rational person.....therefore, her actions would not be rational either.
With her mental illness, the drugs she was prescribed etc, I cannot point the finger at her easily. Today we understand more about mental illness.....if anything, I feel for her, she never got the help she really needed.
It does not settle easily with me to point the finger at Sheila at all - I find it an uncomfortable thought. Therefore, if I'm of the view that Jeremy is innocent, and I'm uncomfortable with the thought of it being Sheila - then I cannot dismiss the idea of it being someone else (not brought in by Jeremy either).
This would be a professional and over time, I have read/heard things, which in my view, answer more questions than not.
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I thought it was very good barring the shotgun mistake. I can see where McKay is going with his CCRC application with all the gun tests and so on. I think it will help in garnering interest in Bambers case, shame to see it scheduled up against Eastenders which probably decimated the viewing figures. It's good that a new programme has been made about the case.
So where do you stand with this Andi? Did Bamber do it on his own, with an accomplice or did someone else carry out the killings alone?
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I have always thought the twins were shot first, i cant see the twins sleeping through the noise.
Good morning all...
Bear in mind though that the twins could have been shot quickly at the outset and shot again at the end for good measure. I agree that they were certainly shot before the adults were.
If Sheila was not shot until the end why did she not try to get out while the gunman was dealing with Nevill downstairs. Could it be that Sheila was locked in her room until everyone else had been dealt with?
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Hi FTA, a few people do think there was an accomplice.
You had a good day?
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I thought it was very good barring the shotgun mistake. I can see where McKay is going with his CCRC application with all the gun tests and so on. I think it will help in garnering interest in Bambers case, shame to see it scheduled up against Eastenders which probably decimated the viewing figures. It's good that a new programme has been made about the case.
So where do you stand with this Andi? Did Bamber do it on his own, with an accomplice or did someone else carry out the killings alone?
I think he did it alone, but i wouldnt rule out an accomplice.
Is it officially documented that sheila wasnt wearing underwear? Its something thats been bothering me.
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Spending money....on Easter presents for family and friends. Costs a packet 8(8-))
How's yourself?
Have you drank the pub dry yet?
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Pubs been quiet, we have all taken advantage of the good weather earlier in the week 8(>((
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I have always thought the twins were shot first, i cant see the twins sleeping through the noise.
Good morning all...
Bear in mind though that the twins could have been shot quickly at the outset and shot again at the end for good measure. I agree that they were certainly shot before the adults were.
If Sheila was not shot until the end why did she not try to get out while the gunman was dealing with Nevill downstairs. Could it be that Sheila was locked in her room until everyone else had been dealt with?
Morning John, hope you are well. I was under the impression that one of the twins was shot in an 'arc'. To me that would give the impression of all the wounds being inflicted at once not someone returning to finish off the job.
Certainly is possible that Sheila could have been locked in but i wouldn't want that lack of control if i was the killer.
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I thought it was very good barring the shotgun mistake. I can see where McKay is going with his CCRC application with all the gun tests and so on. I think it will help in garnering interest in Bambers case, shame to see it scheduled up against Eastenders which probably decimated the viewing figures. It's good that a new programme has been made about the case.
So where do you stand with this Andi? Did Bamber do it on his own, with an accomplice or did someone else carry out the killings alone?
I think he did it alone, but i wouldnt rule out an accomplice.
Is it officially documented that sheila wasnt wearing underwear? Its something thats been bothering me.
Not if your plan is to go to heaven and meet your sons. A long white dress would be just the ticket don't you think?
More effective than jeans and t-shirt.
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But had shiela prepared for the final act surely she would want to be found wearing underwear?
Would she want to be found without?
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Sheila was a confident woman when it came to modelling. Topless and nude modelling are things she had done in the past already.
Rather than having the 'perfect set of underwear', it would seem sexier and more alluring to go without. Underwear was not the same then as it is these days.....and a g-string would certainly not be suitable either.
Better and safer to go without.
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Also, if it was Sheila, her thinking would not have been rational. Wearing underwear would be a rational thought wouldn't it?
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I thought it was very good barring the shotgun mistake. I can see where McKay is going with his CCRC application with all the gun tests and so on. I think it will help in garnering interest in Bambers case, shame to see it scheduled up against Eastenders which probably decimated the viewing figures. It's good that a new programme has been made about the case.
So where do you stand with this Andi? Did Bamber do it on his own, with an accomplice or did someone else carry out the killings alone?
I think he did it alone, but i wouldnt rule out an accomplice.
Is it officially documented that sheila wasnt wearing underwear? Its something thats been bothering me.
Not if your plan is to go to heaven and meet your sons. A long white dress would be just the ticket don't you think?
More effective than jeans and t-shirt.
Just a few problems with that theory Firstimearound. Sheila presented no signs of any struggle, her nails were intact which sort of precludes her from firing a rifle 25 times and loading it twice,. There were no other clothes belonging to Sheila found which had blood on them. There would have been blood in the bathroom and on the towels unless you would have us believe she managed a complete clean up operation as well?
Had Sheila washed as you suggested her hair would have been wet when found.
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If the twins are shot first then the killer could possibly be using 8 bullets out of 10 maximum rounds with three potential adults waking up. We know that June and Nevill were shot in their room and that Nevill got downstairs presumably during a reload. It just seems very odd to discharge 8 rounds first and then have to reload when another two bullets are spent when there are three more potential victims. Hope you see where i am coming from, I always seem to struggle to get the point across that i am trying to make. 8(8-))
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Doing her hair and makeup would have been a rational decision also
Imo if sheila did the deed she would have wIted until she wS back in london, she didnt like whf, she would have killed herseld and her sons in her own home, also she would have wanted to die next to her children.
Now if she did it at whf, then the same thing would happened, she would have wanted to die next to her kids.
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Sorry for all the typos, im in bed using my iphone!!
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Hi John,
Why could she not dry her hair? They had dryers then too. 8)-)))
Alot of things where burnt John, an awful lot. Many items with blood on them too. Yes, I do believe a t-shirt with blood on it would have been noticed and that it would have been taken away for examination. But say it was hid, and with the police cock-up the way it was, with all the police coming and going etc....by some young copper, this could have been overlooked.
Say she did the act naked....bar her undies, which were found in water later? Maybe she did not want to get blood on her clothes. Maybe she wore a black bin liner - and later put it in the bin. Who knows.....all I'm saying was if it where Sheila, her thinking was so very far from normal and therefore, her actions would be abnormal as well. I never knew Sheila or witnessed what she was like during a bad episode. My view is, if it where her, my thinking to try to understand what she did and how she did it, must be far from normal and rational too.
(No, I do not think she wore a bin liner, for the record, it was only given as an example of irrational thinking and behaviour).
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Oh, and her nails were not perfectly manicured, as many believe John. Not at all.
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If the twins are shot first then the killer could possibly be using 8 bullets out of 10 maximum rounds with three potential adults waking up. We know that June and Nevill were shot in their room and that Nevill got downstairs presumably during a reload. It just seems very odd to discharge 8 rounds first and then have to reload when another two bullets are spent when there are three more potential victims. Hope you see where i am coming from, I always seem to struggle to get the point across that i am trying to make. 8(8-))
I see what you mean si, easier to do the adults with a full gun and the kids later because they dont pose much of a problem?
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If the twins are shot first then the killer could possibly be using 8 bullets out of 10 maximum rounds with three potential adults waking up. We know that June and Nevill were shot in their room and that Nevill got downstairs presumably during a reload. It just seems very odd to discharge 8 rounds first and then have to reload when another two bullets are spent when there are three more potential victims. Hope you see where i am coming from, I always seem to struggle to get the point across that i am trying to make. 8(8-))
I see what you mean si, easier to do the adults with a full gun and the kids later because they dont pose much of a problem?
I need to be less convuluted, you make my point in one sentence! The adults have to be congregated and subdued first as they are more of a threat than the twins. With WHF being so secluded, even if the twins did wake up and try to make an escape, they were not going to get far.
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Doing her hair and makeup would have been a rational decision also
Imo if sheila did the deed she would have wIted until she wS back in london, she didnt like whf, she would have killed herseld and her sons in her own home, also she would have wanted to die next to her children.
Now if she did it at whf, then the same thing would happened, she would have wanted to die next to her kids.
But the supposed conversation, around the kitchen table, of social services being brought in and to Sheila, the possibility of someone else having her children, of her losing them, could have sent her over the edge. The panic, the fear, the anxiety could be enough to bring upon a sudden lapse of rational thinking, depending on her then state of mind.
Maybe the phone calls where to be made the following day, to ask for help. Sheila may not have fully understood exactly what was being said and flipped....or panicked.
Something within Sheila's mind takes over, and she sets out to ensure she is never seperated from her sons. To ensure this, her sons would be first on the list. Next, mum and dad.
In this state, she then prepares herself for being re-united not only with her sons, but with her mu and dad. If she did do this, she also made sure the boys never missed their grandparents.......and if the phone call is to be believed also, she also tried to make sure her sons never went without their uncle Jeremy too.
Maybe her thinking was to keep the family together - they were not going to be seperated, she loved her sons so much, she did it for them.
Crazy, irrational.....but is this not something that could have been going through Sheila's mind, before she embarked upon her plan to solve the problem that she understood the family had and it's consequences?
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Also, if it was Sheila, her thinking would not have been rational. Wearing underwear would be a rational thought wouldn't it?
I don't believe for a minute that small feeble Sheila could have carried off such an undertaking. In any event why go into the master bedroom to commit suicide when she could have done it in her babies bedroom? If Sheila was acting irrationally then she would not have had the presence of mind to have been able to load, fire and reload a rifle so many times while still keeping control of the situation. Nevill would have been able to overcome her in the main bedroom had it been Sheila. A male attacker would have been another matter.
It is well evidenced that Sheila's nails were completely intact, the story that a nail was found in the kitchen is just that, a Tesko story.
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Those thing could have gone through her mind but im of the opinion that jb did it, so we will agree to disagree ?{)(**
Look at the time! Wish i was tired!
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It's late Andrea I know.
Thanks all for the debate, feels good to post one's own views, theories without being attacked personally.
It's been a pleasure to chat with you all.
Ty and G'night. 8()-000(
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Nite nite fta, take care and sleep well, nice chatting with you as always xxx
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Doing her hair and makeup would have been a rational decision also
Imo if sheila did the deed she would have wIted until she wS back in london, she didnt like whf, she would have killed herseld and her sons in her own home, also she would have wanted to die next to her children.
Now if she did it at whf, then the same thing would happened, she would have wanted to die next to her kids.
But the supposed conversation, around the kitchen table, of social services being brought in and to Sheila, the possibility of someone else having her children, of her losing them, could have sent her over the edge. The panic, the fear, the anxiety could be enough to bring upon a sudden lapse of rational thinking, depending on her then state of mind.
Maybe the phone calls where to be made the following day, to ask for help. Sheila may not have fully understood exactly what was being said and flipped....or panicked.
Something within Sheila's mind takes over, and she sets out to ensure she is never seperated from her sons. To ensure this, her sons would be first on the list. Next, mum and dad.
In this state, she then prepares herself for being re-united not only with her sons, but with her mu and dad. If she did do this, she also made sure the boys never missed their grandparents.......and if the phone call is to be believed also, she also tried to make sure her sons never went without their uncle Jeremy too.
Maybe her thinking was to keep the family together - they were not going to be seperated, she loved her sons so much, she did it for them.
Crazy, irrational.....but is this not something that could have been going through Sheila's mind, before she embarked upon her plan to solve the problem that she understood the family had and it's consequences?
We only have Jeremy Bambers say so that any such conversation took place and on that basis it cannot be relied on as evidence. It is uncorroborated.
Catch you all later today and we can look at these things anew.
Nite all. xxx
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Nite john, take care .
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Nite John....go to bed Andrea. 8(0(* xxx
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Im not tired fta!!!
Looking forward to sunday lunch though!
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Me too.....we're eating out tomorrow. No cooking, no dishes....just a treat for mama.
Chat tomorrow hopefully.
Matchsticks have just broken.
Night Andrea. xxx 8()-000(
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Nite nite xxxx
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Haughton, if you're reading this .......I can!
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should Mike tesco be driving if he's got a brain tumour? I wonder if his insurance company knows
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Wow, you lot were busy last night!
I agree with Andi, I think Sheila probably never knew the twins had been killed before she died. But I also take on Simon's point regarding the number of bullets used on the twins (if they were killed first) when there were still 3 adults to deal with. That's something that's bothered me for a while too. I think John's probably right - all of the shots probably weren't delivered at the same time.
FTA, no matter how irrational Sheila was I find it hard to believe that she would want to be found without underwear, particularly since she had her period. That just doesn't work for me.
Your point about blood on her feet Andi, if she came into the room via the connecting door where she was found, rather than through the main door where June was found, she wouldn't have walked through any blood would she?
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Hello Weety, What do you make of one of the twins being shot in an arc? At first i thought that an 'arc' was a shape or pattern but i believe it is a shooting style. Don't know that much about guns. 8-)(--)
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FTA, no matter how irrational Sheila was I find it hard to believe that she would want to be found without underwear, particularly since she had her period. That just doesn't work for me.
I can understand what you say, for sure, and as a rational thought I would think the same too, but there are products (are there not) that can be used and does not have to wear underwear.
I also understand how my theories as to her thinking come across, and I am aware they will not be accepted without evidence on here, but the long shot is that events do occur, without prior warning to those with severe mental illness, and the nation reads such dreadful news almost on a regular basis.
A persons thinking will determine a persons actions.......fact!
If Sheila's thinking or perception had become confused and agitated, the consequences 'could' become quite dire (in exceptional circumstances).
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Hello Weety, What do you make of one of the twins being shot in an arc? At first i thought that an 'arc' was a shape or pattern but i believe it is a shooting style. Don't know that much about guns. 8-)(--)
I don't know what to make of the 'arc' description to be honest, it makes me think of someone shooting a large object and moving the gun in an arc whilst doing so. I don't know how to interpret that in the context of a small boy's head. Certainly the implication is that the shots were all delivered at the same time, but do we know that that is definately the case?
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so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.
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FTA, no matter how irrational Sheila was I find it hard to believe that she would want to be found without underwear, particularly since she had her period. That just doesn't work for me.
I can understand what you say, for sure, and as a rational thought I would think the same too, but there are products (are there not) that can be used and does not have to wear underwear.I also understand how my theories as to her thinking come across, and I am aware they will not be accepted without evidence on here, but the long shot is that events do occur, without prior warning to those with severe mental illness, and the nation reads such dreadful news almost on a regular basis.
A persons thinking will determine a persons actions.......fact!
If Sheila's thinking or perception had become confused and agitated, the consequences 'could' become quite dire (in exceptional circumstances).
Well yes, but such products are still 'visible'. Put it this way, on a warm summers night I would have no problem going to bed without wearing underwear whilst using such a product. I absolutely would not do so if I was about to massacre my family and then commit suicide, sure in the knowledge that umpteen (male) police officers would be crawling all over the house in the morning. I accept your point about Sheila's mental state, but I think she would have to be a lot more 'insane' than there is evidence for if she were to behave in that way.
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so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.
It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...
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Hello Weety, What do you make of one of the twins being shot in an arc? At first i thought that an 'arc' was a shape or pattern but i believe it is a shooting style. Don't know that much about guns. 8-)(--)
I don't know what to make of the 'arc' description to be honest, it makes me think of someone shooting a large object and moving the gun in an arc whilst doing so. I don't know how to interpret that in the context of a small boy's head. Certainly the implication is that the shots were all delivered at the same time, but do we know that that is definately the case?
I agree, We cannot know for sure. I shall move on to my next point. Assuming the gun was fully loaded with 10 rounds. If the twins were shot with a bullet each, this would leave 8 bullets left in the gun. Again, assuming that the killer entered the main bedroom next. I have always thought that the next spree of shooting at June and Nevill and possibly Sheila was more than 8 rounds. The maths just don't add up to me, for the twins being shot first.
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Hello Weety, What do you make of one of the twins being shot in an arc? At first i thought that an 'arc' was a shape or pattern but i believe it is a shooting style. Don't know that much about guns. 8-)(--)
I don't know what to make of the 'arc' description to be honest, it makes me think of someone shooting a large object and moving the gun in an arc whilst doing so. I don't know how to interpret that in the context of a small boy's head. Certainly the implication is that the shots were all delivered at the same time, but do we know that that is definately the case?
I agree, We cannot know for sure. I shall move on to my next point. Assuming the gun was fully loaded with 10 rounds. If the twins were shot with a bullet each, this would leave 8 bullets left in the gun. Again, assuming that the killer entered the main bedroom next. I have always thought that the next spree of shooting at June and Nevill and possibly Sheila was more than 8 rounds. The maths just don't add up to me, for the twins being shot first.
John knows a lot more than I do about how many bullets were fired and where, but wouldn't that explain how Ralph managed to escape down the stairs?
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What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.
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I have always thought that Nevill's right side wounds and June left side wounds were inflicted upstairs in the bedroom and then you have Sheila's wounds as well. That's more than 8 rounds. I would be interested to hear John's theories on the sequence of the shooting.
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While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?
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While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?
Absolutely possible. I would also throw in the possibility that the killer carried ammunition in their pockets. I like bouncing ideas around, tis a good way to learn about the case.
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While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?
Absolutely possible. I would also throw in the possibility that the killer carried ammunition in their pockets. I like bouncing ideas around, tis a good way to learn about the case.
Yes, not many pockets in a nightie...
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While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?
Absolutely possible. I would also throw in the possibility that the killer carried ammunition in their pockets. I like bouncing ideas around, tis a good way to learn about the case.
Yes, not many pockets in a nightie...
@)(++(*
or if you are naked.
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While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?
Absolutely possible. I would also throw in the possibility that the killer carried ammunition in their pockets. I like bouncing ideas around, tis a good way to learn about the case.
Yes, not many pockets in a nightie...
@)(++(*
or if you are naked.
Ha ha, yes!
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Haughton, if you're reading this .......I can!
A touch of plagiarism, Mr Belton? I thought you never moseyed over to these parts 8)-)))
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In my opinion it needed two intruders to control the situation properly or the entire attempt could have ended in farce. I have a feeling that one intruder kept Sheila at bay while Nevill was being assaulted downstairs. I don't believe that Sheila ever knew the twins had been killed or she would have been impossible to control. Shona is right about the gouge marks on her as well.
I don´t agree about the gouge marks. To me they look like streams of blood coming from Sheila taking her arm up to the first wound. I have seen this happen. My husband had a sudden, fierce nosebleed. He took his arm up, placed the back of his hand on the nose and leaned forward. To my amazement, I saw the almost exact patterns of blood run down his lower arm as those seen on the photos of Sheila - I mean, it looked so similar, that my jaw dropped. The blood dried very, very quickly making the same pooling at the end of the streams of blood.
I CAN´T see that they are gouge marks, and they look nothing like the marks on Ralph´s arm, which are gouge marks. Made by what I don´t know; I don´t think fingernails, but I don´t really know, of course.
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But had shiela prepared for the final act surely she would want to be found wearing underwear?
Would she want to be found without?
It could be very simple. She could have brought two sets of panties and they were both soiled, so she had no clean underwear left. Some clothes of hers were soaking in a bucket (or two?) I know there was a pair of pants, a top (both black, I believe) and at least one pair of bloodied panties. I would like to know in more detail what laundry there was around the house, clean and unclean.
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so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.
It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...
So June calmly and efficiently shot the little boys? her sleeping grandchildren? is that what hes saying? he should be ashamed of himself
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so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.
It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...
So June calmly and efficiently shot the little boys? her sleeping grandchildren? is that what hes saying? he should be ashamed of himself
Yes, something like that. It's apparently based on Jeremy's recollection (years later) that when Ralph called him he may have said "she's got the gun..." and not "Sheila's got the gun..."
Of course this theory is completely at odds with his phone call / logs theory, since if the two logs represented two phone calls, one from Jeremy who had misheard Ralph and so described Sheila, and the other from Ralph, Ralph would have said "My wife's got the gun..." and described her instead.
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What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.
It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear. 8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/
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Doing her hair and makeup would have been a rational decision also
Imo if sheila did the deed she would have waited until she was back in London, she didn't like whf, she would have killed herself and her sons in her own home, also she would have wanted to die next to her children.
Now if she did it at whf, then the same thing would happened, she would have wanted to die next to her kids.
But the supposed conversation, around the kitchen table, of social services being brought in and to Sheila, the possibility of someone else having her children, of her losing them, could have sent her over the edge. The panic, the fear, the anxiety could be enough to bring upon a sudden lapse of rational thinking, depending on her then state of mind.
Maybe the phone calls where to be made the following day, to ask for help. Sheila may not have fully understood exactly what was being said and flipped....or panicked.
Something within Sheila's mind takes over, and she sets out to ensure she is never seperated from her sons. To ensure this, her sons would be first on the list. Next, mum and dad.
In this state, she then prepares herself for being re-united not only with her sons, but with her mu and dad. If she did do this, she also made sure the boys never missed their grandparents.......and if the phone call is to be believed also, she also tried to make sure her sons never went without their uncle Jeremy too.
Maybe her thinking was to keep the family together - they were not going to be seperated, she loved her sons so much, she did it for them.
Crazy, irrational.....but is this not something that could have been going through Sheila's mind, before she embarked upon her plan to solve the problem that she understood the family had and it's consequences?
That's a nice theory Firstimearound but that is all it is. It does not fit in with any of the known facts. Let me explain.
According to Jeremy he telephoned the police around 3.26am possibly a bit earlier or later. We also know for sure that Sgt Bews and his entourage arrive at about 3.45am. We also know that there was no movement in the house at that point, nobody moving around, no noises and no running water or a hair dryer.
So what we are left with is that you expect us to believe that Sheila fought with Nevill, shot him, went upstairs and had a bath, cleaned up and dried her hair before getting round to shooting herself all in the space of 20 minutes?
It is a nice thought though and full marks for bringing it up but it just doesn't fit.
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What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.
It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear. 8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/
I agree, Julie may be different things to different people at different times in the last 26 year but she is CONSISTENT and CONFIDENT and always has been. Her evidence is unshakable basically.
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so now June's the guilty party? In other words, Mike tesko does not, and has never had the first idea what happened. What a fraud.
It depends what thread you read - in another one he has Ralph and Sheila fighting naked in the kitchen. Or maybe that was 'Smiffy'...
So June calmly and efficiently shot the little boys? her sleeping grandchildren? is that what hes saying? he should be ashamed of himself
Impossible going by the evidence. June Bamber was shot when Jeremy came into the bedroom and first shot Nevill. Nevill probably took the chance to escape down the stairs when June was being shot.
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What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.
It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear. 8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/
I agree, Julie may be different things to different people at different times in the last 26 year but she is CONSISTENT and CONFIDENT and always has been. Her evidence is unshakable basically.
As I stated earlier this morning I will invite comments from Julie in relation to the way she has been portrayed and the potential libel against her. I will post her response assuming I get one. 8((()*/
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In my opinion it needed two intruders to control the situation properly or the entire attempt could have ended in farce. I have a feeling that one intruder kept Sheila at bay while Nevill was being assaulted downstairs. I don't believe that Sheila ever knew the twins had been killed or she would have been impossible to control. Shona is right about the gouge marks on her as well.
I don´t agree about the gouge marks. To me they look like streams of blood coming from Sheila taking her arm up to the first wound. I have seen this happen. My husband had a sudden, fierce nosebleed. He took his arm up, placed the back of his hand on the nose and leaned forward. To my amazement, I saw the almost exact patterns of blood run down his lower arm as those seen on the photos of Sheila - I mean, it looked so similar, that my jaw dropped. The blood dried very, very quickly making the same pooling at the end of the streams of blood.
I CAN´T see that they are gouge marks, and they look nothing like the marks on Ralph´s arm, which are gouge marks. Made by what I don´t know; I don´t think fingernails, but I don´t really know, of course.
Undoubtedly, the marks on Nevill's arm were made by coming into contact with the damaged rifle stock which would have had sharp frayed edges.
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While you're waiting for him, could it be that the magazine was refilled after shooting the twins? If it seemed that he hadn't yet been discovered, wouldn't that have been a good opportunity to do so?
Absolutely possible. I would also throw in the possibility that the killer carried ammunition in their pockets. I like bouncing ideas around, tis a good way to learn about the case.
Yes, not many pockets in a nightie...
@)(++(*
or if you are naked.
Ha ha, yes!
He would have carried the extra ammo or another magazine already loaded if he was properly prepared.
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Hello Weety, What do you make of one of the twins being shot in an arc? At first i thought that an 'arc' was a shape or pattern but i believe it is a shooting style. Don't know that much about guns. 8-)(--)
I don't know what to make of the 'arc' description to be honest, it makes me think of someone shooting a large object and moving the gun in an arc whilst doing so. I don't know how to interpret that in the context of a small boy's head. Certainly the implication is that the shots were all delivered at the same time, but do we know that that is definately the case?
I agree, We cannot know for sure. I shall move on to my next point. Assuming the gun was fully loaded with 10 rounds. If the twins were shot with a bullet each, this would leave 8 bullets left in the gun. Again, assuming that the killer entered the main bedroom next. I have always thought that the next spree of shooting at June and Nevill and possibly Sheila was more than 8 rounds. The maths just don't add up to me, for the twins being shot first.
John knows a lot more than I do about how many bullets were fired and where, but wouldn't that explain how Ralph managed to escape down the stairs?
The gun doesn't make much noise I agree and the twins could have slept through the initial rumpus. The twins offered the least resistance as well so weren't a priority target. That all said, the twins were shot as they slept.
I will have a look at this later but I want to ask everyone something. There were bullet holes in the pillow in the twins room and even a bullet in one of them. I have a feeling Jeremy found to his dismay that the .22 round was not as good a killing machine as he had first thought. He had no way of knowing how many rounds it would take to stop a an adult person as he found when he fired the first shots at June and Nevill. I think he was shocked that Nevill and June were still walking after he pumped two bullets into each of them and when the gun jammed (as it tended to do) or he ran out of ammunition, Nevill took the chance to go for help downstairs.
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The gun doesn't make much noise I agree and the twins could have slept through the initial rumpus. The twins offered the least resistance as well so weren't a priority target. That all said, the twins were shot as they slept.
I will have a look at this later but I want to ask everyone something. There were bullet holes in the pillow in the twins room and even a bullet in one of them. I have a feeling Jeremy found to his dismay that the .22 round was not as good a killing machine as he had first thought. He had no way of knowing how many rounds it would take to stop a an adult person as he found when he fired the first shots at June and Nevill. I think he was shocked that Nevill and June were still walking after he pumped two bullets into each of them and when the gun jammed (as it tended to do) or he ran out of ammunition, Nevill took the chance to go for help downstairs.
Do you think he put the pillow over their head before shooting them, that would have been the sensible thing to do but maybe the pillow provided too much resistance to a .22 round? Nevill didn't get far and he certainly didn't get to the phone or his blood would have been all over it and on the floor adjacent. He seems to have been clobbered just as he entered the kitchen and then beaten with the rifle. Just enough time for the shooter to reload and then shoot him again as he collapsed in his chair by the Aga.
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Just been listening to Simon McKay on radio 4. Interesting programme about witness protection.
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What a brave girl Julie Mugford was. So young, and under such pressure, but determined to do the right thing. She deserves the happy family life and sucessful career that she now enjoys.
It's a flipping shame the other forum can't leave her alone. They must be pretty dim if they think that over the years she's just sat back and not taken advice about being called to appear. 8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/
I agree, Julie may be different things to different people at different times in the last 26 year but she is CONSISTENT and CONFIDENT and always has been. Her evidence is unshakable basically.
As I stated earlier this morning I will invite comments from Julie in relation to the way she has been portrayed and the potential libel against her. I will post her response assuming I get one. 8((()*/
I for one hope she replies to you and places her feelings on the matter in the public domain at this point in time. I feel that ITV1 had no reason to state that she had not responded to their enquiries. Why the hell should she contribute anything to such an amateurishly made program.
IMO the woman did well. 8@??)(
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There were bullet holes in the pillow in the twins room and even a bullet in one of them. I have a feeling Jeremy found to his dismay that the .22 round was not as good a killing machine as he had first thought. He had no way of knowing how many rounds it would take to stop a an adult person as he found when he fired the first shots at June and Nevill. I think he was shocked that Nevill and June were still walking after he pumped two bullets into each of them and when the gun jammed (as it tended to do) or he ran out of ammunition, Nevill took the chance to go for help downstairs.
You have hit the nail on the head there John. Bamber was dismayed when his favourite rifle couldn't kill with one or two shots. Shooting little bunnies in the garden is one thing but an adult human being is something else. He nearly emptied a magazine into poor June and Nevill as they put up such a struggle against him.
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It was not hard to commit the massacre.
At 2am, it is the perfect time for an execution. Everyone was asleep. Neville waking up seconds beforehand. But everyone else shot while asleep. Sheila then either lead of carried to the main bedroom. Although there is a slim chance of her waking and retreating to the far corner of the main bedroom.
Colin Caffell said Sheila would have shot herself with the twins.