UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Rachel Granada on October 09, 2013, 07:41:14 AM
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Good morning. Re: Yvonne Martin, I would have to say that she had no business approaching strangers whose child had just gone missing. What on earth did she think she was going to achieve by barging in on them? There were FLOs in place etc. Warren should have first approached them with any offer of help. The impression I get is that of a nosy busy-body.
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Good morning. Re: Yvonne Martin, I would have to say that she had no business approaching strangers whose child had just gone missing. What on earth did she think she was going to achieve by barging in on them? There were FLOs in place etc. Warren should have first approached them with any offer of help. The impression I get is that of a nosy busy-body.
Of course you do and we know the reasons why, only too plainly.
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Good morning. Re: Yvonne Martin, I would have to say that she had no business approaching strangers whose child had just gone missing. What on earth did she think she was going to achieve by barging in on them? There were FLOs in place etc. Warren should have first approached them with any offer of help. The impression I get is that of a nosy busy-body.
Again, I say Social Workers are damned of they do and damned if they don't. If she thought that, from her experience, she could offer something to help, why not offer? I would have done the same - so now call me a nosy busy-body. No - I have had experience of working with missing children and I would have offered that experience if it was wanted. I gave an example later of the sort of questions I believe she asked which was an accurate question.
Offering to help is a natural with me anyway, and if people do not want that help, fine. But I bet the man I saw in the supermarket café a few months ago who I could see was not well and I asked how he was; and ended up calling the Manager and an ambulance was called to take him to the local hospital - I bet he was pleased I put myself out to help him - and he had the courtesy to thank me anyway. If you think you can help in a difficult situation - offer, even if it means you disturb your own meal!
It is so easy to criticise others when you have not had the same experience as them. And so easy to be rude to people on this forum. You object to the rudeness of some to the McCanns, as you see it, but seem to think it is OK to be equally rude to people who tried to assist.
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Again, I say Social Workers are damned of they do and damned if they don't. If she thought that, from her experience, she could offer something to help, why not offer? I would have done the same - so now call me a nosy busy-body. No - I have had experience of working with missing children and I would have offered that experience if it was wanted. I gave an example later of the sort of questions I believe she asked which was an accurate question.
Offering to help is a natural with me anyway, and if people do not want that help, fine. But I bet the man I saw in the supermarket café a few months ago who I could see was not well and I asked how he was; and ended up calling the Manager and an ambulance was called to take him to the local hospital - I bet he was pleased I put myself out to help him - and he had the courtesy to thank me anyway. If you think you can help in a difficult situation - offer, even if it means you disturb your own meal!
It is so easy to criticise others when you have not had the same experience as them. And so easy to be rude to people on this forum. You object to the rudeness of some to the McCanns, as you see it, but seem to think it is OK to be equally rude to people who tried to assist.
It's one thing to offer assistance, but quite another when your 'assistance' becomes an univited intrusion.
Y.Martin commented herself on the dreadful state KM was in -(crying intensely) and then proceeded to bombard her with the most insensitive questions, a mere few hours after Madeleine had disappeared. It seems she then dug her heels in and practically refused to go, even when she was politely asked to because she was increasing KM's distress imo.
Ultimately, she was no more than a stranger off the street, although I think it was possible the McCanns thought at first that she was there in some official capacity as she arrived at the same time as a police car.
Her only contribution to this case was her 'feeling' that she knew David Payne from somewhere which she wrote in an 'anonymous' letter. After six years it would appear that she still hasn't remembered.
Personally I have no time for people who write anonymous letters.
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It's one thing to offer assistance, but quite another when your 'assistance' becomes an univited intrusion.
Y.Martin commented herself on the dreadful state KM was in -(crying intensely) and then proceeded to bombard her with the most insensitive questions, a mere few hours after Madeleine had disappeared. It seems she then dug her heels in and practically refused to go, even when she was politely asked to because she was increasing KM's distress imo.
Ultimately, she was no more than a stranger off the street, although I think it was possible the McCanns thought at first that she was there in some official capacity as she arrived at the same time as a police car.
Her only contribution to this case was her 'feeling' that she knew David Payne from somewhere which she wrote in an 'anonymous' letter. After six years it would appear that she still hasn't remembered.
Personally I have no time for people who write anonymous letters.
Then we will agree to disagree
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Then we will agree to disagree
Fair enough CPN.
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Fair enough CPN.
I would add CPN that I have a great deal of sympathy for social workers - as it is patently obvious to anyone that they are grossly under-staffed and grossly overworked. A situation not of their making or choosing but which IMO is a major contributory factor to mistakes being made - for which they are then blamed. Most unfair IMO.
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I would add CPN that I have a great deal of sympathy for social workers - as it is patently obvious to anyone that they are grossly under-staffed and grossly overworked. A situation not of their making or choosing but which IMO is a major contributory factor to mistakes being made - for which they are then blamed. Most unfair IMO.
Thank you, Benice! ?{)(**
And I should add that most Social Workers - not all I admit, because not all of any group of human beings is the same - go into Social Work to help as much as they can. That at times means being involved with families when you are not wanted, which may have been the case in this situation we are considering. That does not however, make them "nosy busy-bodies"
In the case of the fellow in the supermarket, I could see that something was wrong. His initial response was no, he was fine. I kept watching - and then came the request - "could I call the manager" and it went on from there. If I had not spoken to him in the first place he would not, I suspect, have felt able to ask me to call the manager - he did not ask anyone else for help, he asked me who had already spoken to him. The initial movement forward has to be made first, and that is how I see the offer to help by Yvonne Martin (who was not any old member of the public; she did show her qualifications)
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I would add CPN that I have a great deal of sympathy for social workers - as it is patently obvious to anyone that they are grossly under-staffed and grossly overworked. A situation not of their making or choosing but which IMO is a major contributory factor to mistakes being made - for which they are then blamed. Most unfair IMO.
I for once will have to agree with you Benice,
There have been a lot of child neglect cases in the news recently,
I forget the name, but the woman who was sentenced last week for allowing her toddler to starve to death,
The couple who tortured their little boy & did their utmost to cover it up,
Baby P, Victoria Columbea (probably spelt that wrong)
In all these cases the social services took a hammering, they have too many children to protect & too few staff to do the job.
Some people are simply not capable of being decent parents & no amount of trying to help them is going to solve the issue.
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It's one thing to offer assistance, but quite another when your 'assistance' becomes an univited intrusion.
Y.Martin commented herself on the dreadful state KM was in -(crying intensely) and then proceeded to bombard her with the most insensitive questions, a mere few hours after Madeleine had disappeared. It seems she then dug her heels in and practically refused to go, even when she was politely asked to because she was increasing KM's distress imo.
Ultimately, she was no more than a stranger off the street, although I think it was possible the McCanns thought at first that she was there in some official capacity as she arrived at the same time as a police car.
Her only contribution to this case was her 'feeling' that she knew David Payne from somewhere which she wrote in an 'anonymous' letter. After six years it would appear that she still hasn't remembered.
Personally I have no time for people who write anonymous letters.
I agree with you Benice.
You can't blame the McCann's for not wanting to speak to her. As you say she came along throwing questions at Kate when she was in no fit state to answer them and more or less doing it in the open.
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CPN said: It is so easy to criticise others when you have not had the same experience as them
Yet you do it to Kate and Gerry McCann. Physician, heal thyself!
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I agree with you Benice.
You can't blame the McCann's for not wanting to speak to her. As you say she came along throwing questions at Kate when she was in no fit state to answer them and more or less doing it in the open.
On top of their other troubles, having a pesky social worker asking awkward questions must have really pissed them off.
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CPN said: It is so easy to criticise others when you have not had the same experience as them
Yet you do it to Kate and Gerry McCann. Physician, heal thyself!
The only thing I think you have seen me criticise the McCanns for, along with numerous others is for leaving the children alone in the way they did. I would criticise anyone for doing that, both as a parent and as a Children's Social Worker. I do not need to heal myself, it was my job to deal with matters like that. And, as I have pointed out, the situation is made worse by the fact that they are doctors and should certainly have known better for all the reasons I have given before.
You have not found me, I think, joining in with the criticism of the way Kate looks, the way Gerry speaks, etc etc. Oh yes - one thing more I will criticise - the fact that they have not said what they did was wrong, but have constantly made excuses. And that is because the message that SHOULD be sent out is that it is not acceptable to leave three under 4 year olds out of sight and hearing in that way, and my concern is for all children treated in that way (and all other forms of neglect, of course)
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The only thing I think you have seen me criticise the McCanns for, along with numerous others is for leaving the children alone in the way they did. I would criticise anyone for doing that, both as a parent and as a Children's Social Worker. I do not need to heal myself, it was my job to deal with matters like that. And, as I have pointed out, the situation is made worse by the fact that they are doctors and should certainly have known better for all the reasons I have given before.
You have not found me, I think, joining in with the criticism of the way Kate looks, the way Gerry speaks, etc etc. Oh yes - one thing more I will criticise - the fact that they have not said what they did was wrong, but have constantly made excuses. And that is because the message that SHOULD be sent out is that it is not acceptable to leave three under 4 year olds out of sight and hearing in that way, and my concern is for all children treated in that way (and all other forms of neglect, of course)
are you accusing the MccANNS of neglect..that would be libellous
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I personally see it as neglect, in that, as I have explained before, the Local Authorities I worked for would certainly have taken the situation seriously and would have investigated and possibly put some ways of dealing with it into action. That would not, as I have also explained, necessarily have meant prosecution.
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I personally see it as neglect, in that, as I have explained before, the Local Authorities I worked for would certainly have taken the situation seriously and would have investigated and possibly put some ways of dealing with it into action. That would not, as I have also explained, necessarily have meant prosecution.
As I have said before it was advertised on the mark warner web site throughout europe so I think your personal opinion is wrong
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That is fine, we will agree to disagree. But as I have also said before, I had three sisters in care (already in care, not taken into care by me) when I started work who had been removed from their home under very similar circumstances. I most certainly think the situation would have been looked into very seriously - what decision would then have been taken is another matter, and also how it would have been dealt with
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Was it wrong to rebuke Yvonne Martin for offering to help a family in distress?
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I don't think Yvonne Martin had anything to offer in the way of 'help' to the McCanns that day ... she was being an officious busy-body in my opinion
Before Social workers are allocated work assignments, case-conferences are held where all known information ( usually from multiple sources ) is reveiwed and discussed
This woman just stormed in ... with no knowledge of the family or circumstances, and, more importantly, no official or sanctioned remit
I don't blame the McCanns at all for sending her off with a flea in her ear
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I don't think Yvonne Martin had anything to offer in the way of 'help' to the McCanns that day ... she was being an officious busy-body in my opinion
Before Social workers are allocated work assignments, case-conferences are held where all known information ( usually from multiple sources ) is reveiwed and discussed
This woman just stormed in ... with no knowledge of the family or circumstances, and, more importantly, no official or sanctioned remit
I don't blame the McCanns at all for sending her off with a flea in her ear
There are two sides to every story. She said she was trying to help and the McCanns/Payne were rude and the McCanns say she was an interfering so-and-so in approximate terms. If I'd been out there and was a social worker and had experience in roughly similar areas where I thought my expertise may be of some help, I would almost have almost certainly offered to help. I would have tried to be as sensitive as possible. Do we know for certain that Yvonne Martin wasn't?
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There are two sides to every story. She said she was trying to help and the McCanns/Payne were rude and the McCanns say she was an interfering so-and-so in approximate terms. If I'd been out there and was a social worker and had experience in roughly similar areas where I thought my expertise may be of some help, I would almost have almost certainly offered to help. I would have tried to be as sensitive as possible. Do we know for certain that Yvonne Martin wasn't?
She was out of order to impose herself on a family in that situation, I think ( without relevant information or remit )
Social Work isn't an emergency service ... it's not like a doctor, or nurse, or fireman, stepping up to the plate in desperate circumstances
She had no business interfering
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She was out of order to impose herself on a family in that situation, I think ( without relevant information or remit )
Social Work isn't an emergency service ... it's not like a doctor, or nurse, or fireman, stepping up to the plate in desperate circumstances
She had no business interfering
Absolutely. She took the initiative, al-right but she should have had the delicacy not to insist. And afterwards she wrote anonymous letters ! A shame.
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She was out of order to impose herself on a family in that situation, I think ( without relevant information or remit )
Social Work isn't an emergency service ... it's not like a doctor, or nurse, or fireman, stepping up to the plate in desperate circumstances
She had no business interfering
Fair enough. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. ?{)(**
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She should have presented herself to the GNR initially as they were in charge. Well I assume they were ? 8-)(--)