Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on October 09, 2013, 10:13:14 PM
Title: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: sadie on October 09, 2013, 10:13:14 PM
They have admitted that they were wrong; that they made a mistake. misjudgement .... call it what you wish.
Dont forget that they were only 50ish metres away and had a pretty good view of the patio windows. I sat at that same tapas bar and I could see virtually the whole of the patio windows, top to almost bottom and side to side.
Their view would not be as good as mine cos they were a little furter west, but if you refer to photographs in other threads you will see what they could see, in a photo taken from right outside the patio windows back towards the tapas restaurant. That photo did not have the clipped bushes as shown on tonights video.
The contemporary view of the bushes in Met Det Peter Kirkman interview @ 30 seconds will show how the bushes had JUST been cut back, so The Mccanns view would have been better than in the next photo.
This photo shows where the Mccanns sat . It was taken from right in front of the patio windows of 5A. See the pool, well the two linked structures with the large picture windows immediately behind the pool show where we sat for our meal and also where The Mccanns sat. We sat in the LH section and the Mccanns sat in the RH section.
Our view was perfect and theirs pretty good. The Tapas area was very much cozier than appears in these photos. I was surprised how close everything was. The 50 metre distance can easily be checked on GE. The bushes need clipping here. They were severely clipped back at the time of the abduction as you will see from the contemporary video above. (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwviewfrompatio.jpg)
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 09, 2013, 10:21:14 PM
They have admitted that they were wrong; that they made a mistake. misjudgement .... call it what you wish.
Dont forget that they were only 50ish metres away and had a pretty good view of the patio windows. I sat at that same tapas bar and I could see virtually the whole of the patio windows, top to almost bottom and side to side.
Their view would not be as good as mine cos they were a little furter west, but if you refer to photographs in other threads you will see what they could see, in a photo taken from right outside the patio windows back towards the tapas restaurant. That photo did not have the clipped bushes as shown on tonights video.
The contemporary view of the bushes in Met Det Peter Kirkman interview @ 30 seconds will show how the bushes had JUST been cut back, so The Mccanns view would have been better than in the next photo.
This photo shows where the Mccanns sat . It was taken from right in front of the patio windows of 5A. See the pool, well the two linked structures with the large picture windows immediately behind the pool show where we sat for our meal and also where The Mccanns sat. We sat in the LH section and the Mccanns sat in the RH section.
Our view was perfect and theirs pretty good. The Tapas area was very much cozier than appears in these photos. I was surprised how close everything was. The 50 metre distance can easily be checked on GE. The bushes need clipping here. They were severely clipped back at the time of the abduction as you will see from the contemporary video above. (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwviewfrompatio.jpg)
I still haven't heard them say they were WRONG Sadie, and also never discuss it without making excuses.
To be honest, I am not interested in how far away they were, be it whatever many metres - they were out of sight and hearing of three very young, vulnerable children - that is enough for me
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Redblossom on October 09, 2013, 10:39:46 PM
I still haven't heard them say they were WRONG Sadie, and also never discuss it without making excuses.
To be honest, I am not interested in how far away they were, be it whatever many metres - they were out of sight and hearing of three very young, vulnerable children - that is enough for me
Exactly...out of ear and eyeshot....if a mother feels fine leaving her three babies in an unsecured flat what can one say...she was happy with it
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: John on October 10, 2013, 12:21:57 PM
This photo shows where the Mccanns sat . It was taken from right in front of the patio windows of 5A. See the pool, well the two linked structures with the large picture windows immediately behind the pool show where we sat for our meal and also where The Mccanns sat. We sat in the LH section and the Mccanns sat in the RH section.
Our view was perfect and theirs pretty good. The Tapas area was very much cozier than appears in these photos. I was surprised how close everything was. The 50 metre distance can easily be checked on GE. The bushes need clipping here. They were severely clipped back at the time of the abduction as you will see from the contemporary video above.
For the sake of completeness of course lets not forget that it was May and the resort was in darkness after 7pm so the above photo being a daytime shot offers little in respect of what one could actually see at night.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Luz on October 10, 2013, 12:36:12 PM
For the sake of completeness of course lets not forget that it was May and the resort was in darkness after 7pm so the above photo being a daytime shot offers little in respect of what one could actually see at night.
Please not this photo again!!!!!
The McCann were not sitting on the veranda...this is a total fallacy as it doesn't show what you can see from the restaurant with almost opaque plastic protections. And 50 meters from the exterior of the restaurant, across a pool, a little gardened area, an alley bordered by high walls, a wall surrounding the back of the apartment area, a veranda, and several rooms until the front room, totally out of view, where the children were said to be?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give us a break.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: John on October 10, 2013, 12:58:39 PM
Maybe this one would be better Luz?
(http://i.imgur.com/CjQPxGg.jpg)
Sky's Martin Brunt explains what the view of apartment 5a would have been like from where the McCanns sat in the tapas bar.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Luz on October 10, 2013, 01:12:56 PM
Sky's Martin Brunt explains what the view of apartment 5a would have been like from where the McCanns sat in the tapas bar.
Thank you Mr. John. But it must be said also that this is the view towards the back of the apartment, while the kiddies'room was in the front (opposite direction).
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 10, 2013, 01:13:27 PM
Sky's Martin Brunt explains what the view of apartment 5a would have been like from where the McCanns sat in the tapas bar.
You do understand that a camera lens has focal length and depth of field. That means if the foreground is in focus then further away will be blurred. The eye has an adjustable focal lenght
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on October 10, 2013, 01:16:44 PM
In this case, though, it doesn't look as if the foreground is in focus, either
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Luz on October 10, 2013, 01:22:37 PM
What about smoking Luz? Was it permitted in Portuguese restaurants in 2007?
In there maybe it was permitted, because it was outside. But I don't know.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Luz on October 10, 2013, 01:49:24 PM
What was seen or not from the restaurant is irrelevant. If the child suffered an accident they couldn't have seen it. If, as they argumented, the child was abducted through the bedroom window, the back door or the front door, they wouldn't see anything.
Logic tells us that no stupid abductor would take a child through the back doors, even if they were ever opened. Logic tells us that no abductor would take a child from inside an apartment when there are dozens of children playing on the street everyday. And much less would they take a child of that age when they had younger ones at hand on the exact same site.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: John on October 16, 2013, 02:03:25 PM
Was the 50 metres, the approx distance from the patio of apartment 5a to the tapas restaurant, a 50 metres too far?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on October 16, 2013, 02:20:55 PM
What was seen or not from the restaurant is irrelevant. If the child suffered an accident they couldn't have seen it. If, as they argumented, the child was abducted through the bedroom window, the back door or the front door, they wouldn't see anything.
Logic tells us that no stupid abductor would take a child through the back doors, even if they were ever opened. Logic tells us that no abductor would take a child from inside an apartment when there are dozens of children playing on the street everyday. And much less would they take a child of that age when they had younger ones at hand on the exact same site.
I agree, Luz. Completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 16, 2013, 02:22:59 PM
Yes. My original answer still stands: "To be honest, I am not interested in how far away they were, be it whatever many metres - they were out of sight and hearing of three very young, vulnerable children - that is enough for me"
Sadie on October 9th: "They have admitted that they were wrong; that they made a mistake. misjudgement .... call it what you wish."
But Kate, on Crimewatch - "It's not us who have done anything wrong"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 16, 2013, 02:30:08 PM
To admit to their wrong would be getting to close to them admitting their guilt.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: sadie on October 17, 2013, 12:44:59 PM
Yes. My original answer still stands: "To be honest, I am not interested in how far away they were, be it whatever many metres - they were out of sight and hearing of three very young, vulnerable children - that is enough for me"
Sadie on October 9th: "They have admitted that they were wrong; that they made a mistake. misjudgement .... call it what you wish."
But Kate, on Crimewatch - "It's not us who have done anything wrong"
Am sorry, am not so well atm and was not aware of this thread.
Kate and Gerry have admitted to making a misjudgement, many times.
I agree they were slow making it, but then maybe THEY, THEMSEVES, went to Butlins/ Pontins as kids and were left in their chalets .... as WAS the norm in those days at such places. Also at a good many hotels worldwide.
If that were the case, they would initially not be able to accept that they erred in any way.
Since then they have expressed their remorse several times and it is pointtless keep pushing the issue CPN, because readers here will have seen them do that.
My words might be clumsy; I may have chosen the wrong word. I am better with images and logic than words. I accept that. If you want to trash me, then go ahead. I have suffered more than enough of that over the past 6 months, but my shoulders are fairly broad. Nevertheless this forum has affected my health with all the bullying, I have suffered on a many times daily basis.
Pat yourselves on the back that you have significantly reduced at least one pros health and possibly others.
As Kate correctly expresses, they were NOT the wrongdoer. The wrongdoer was the abductor. Same as a girl in a mini skirt that gets raped is NOT the wrongdoer either.
It amazes me that you cant see the difference.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: C.Edwards on October 17, 2013, 12:58:51 PM
Am sorry, am not so well atm and was not aware of this thread.
Kate and Gerry have admitted to making a misjudgement, many times.
I agree they were slow making it, but then maybe THEY, THEMSEVES, went to Butlins/ Pontins as kids and were left in their chalets .... as WAS the norm in those days at such places. Also at a good many hotels worldwide.
If that were the case, they would initially not be able to accept that they erred in any way.
Since then they have expressed their remorse several times and it is pointtless keep pushing the issue CPN, because readers here will have seen them do that.
My words might be clumsy; I may have chosen the wrong word. I am better with images and logic than words. I accept that. If you want to trash me, then go ahead. I have suffered more than enough of that over the past 6 months, but my shoulders are fairly broad. Nevertheless this forum has affected my health with all the bullying, I have suffered on a many times daily basis.
Pat yourselves on the back that you have significantly reduced at least one pros health and possibly others.
As Kate correctly expresses, they were NOT the wrongdoer. The wrongdoer was the abductor. Same as a girl in a mini skirt that gets raped is NOT the wrongdoer either.
It amazes me that you cant see the difference.
If you (and others) are capable of holding Amaral responsible for the actions of his men - i.e. trusting what they'd told him was true - and it turned out that it was!) then why are you not capable of holding Madeleine's parents responsible for her what happened to her - even if she was abducted?
The abductor - assuming there was one - could not have struck if the McCanns had not left Madeleine alone, agreed? This is a simple point that bears repeating. The McCanns alone (with their children) decided to leave the kids alone. That others do it and may still do it is utterly irrelevant. I'm talking about a chain of specific events here. If you say that Madeleine was abducted, it was only because she was put in a position to be abducted by her parents, correct?
Whether they have subsequently accepted responsibility in an unequivocal manner since then is open to debate. I don't think they've come anywhere near it, preferring instead to shift the blame elsewhere or claim they were told it was "well within the bounds of responsible parenting". (I didn't know there were set guidelines for responsible parenting!)
Likewise, whether they "could have expected" abduction as an outcome to their choice as Praia da Luz seemed such a lovely little safe place is also irrelevant. We're talking about a specific event. Had Kate McCann said on crimewatch, "we know we were wrong to leave Madeleine," rather that the apparent reference of "we've done nothing wrong" that was broadcast prior to the programme then maybe they'd get a whole lot less criticism.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Luz on October 17, 2013, 01:10:27 PM
They have admitted that they were wrong; that they made a mistake. misjudgement .... call it what you wish.
Dont forget that they were only 50ish metres away and had a pretty good view of the patio windows. I sat at that same tapas bar and I could see virtually the whole of the patio windows, top to almost bottom and side to side.
Their view would not be as good as mine cos they were a little furter west, but if you refer to photographs in other threads you will see what they could see, in a photo taken from right outside the patio windows back towards the tapas restaurant. That photo did not have the clipped bushes as shown on tonights video.
The contemporary view of the bushes in Met Det Peter Kirkman interview @ 30 seconds will show how the bushes had JUST been cut back, so The Mccanns view would have been better than in the next photo.
This photo shows where the Mccanns sat . It was taken from right in front of the patio windows of 5A. See the pool, well the two linked structures with the large picture windows immediately behind the pool show where we sat for our meal and also where The Mccanns sat. We sat in the LH section and the Mccanns sat in the RH section.
Our view was perfect and theirs pretty good. The Tapas area was very much cozier than appears in these photos. I was surprised how close everything was. The 50 metre distance can easily be checked on GE. The bushes need clipping here. They were severely clipped back at the time of the abduction as you will see from the contemporary video above. (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwviewfrompatio.jpg)
Why do you keep bringing that here. If you wish that it is 50 meters (UK meters are larger than portuguese, I get it), so be it. It could be 20 m. It's across a pool, a garden and several walls to the back door of the apartment. But the children's room was, allegedly in the front of the apartment. If there was an accident do you believe they could be heard or helped?!
It doesn't matter how far away they were, what matters is that if it is true they were away, there were no adults in the house when probably an accident happened. Or, maybe there were adults in the house when an accident happened, since they made so many checkings...
One way or another, there is no proof of abduction other than the McCann word.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 17, 2013, 01:40:38 PM
Pat yourselves on the back that you have significantly reduced at least one pros health and possibly others.
That is most unfair, Sadie. You appear to be accusing me of being pleased if someone who is not well is upset by my posting. This is a discussion forum and people will say what they feel without expecting sideways accusations like that - if you do not feel well enough to post here, maybe you should not. No, I do not take delight in "significantly reducing your health" and I object to that accusation very strongly.
We had discussed earlier whether the McCanns had admitted that they were wrong to leave the children and I had said I had heard them say they regretted their actions but never admit to being in the wrong; then Kate made this comment in the preview of the CW programme and in my mind it was a very unwise comment to make, repeating that they had done no wrong. To my mind both were wrong - the McCanns and, obviously, the abductor if there was one. The one does not preclude the other.
And I have to agree with the last two posts - they say much what I have previously said.
You do NOT have not answer this, Sadie; indeed if you are going to accuse me of making your illness worse, I would rather you do not
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Cariad on October 17, 2013, 02:48:15 PM
If you want to trash me, then go ahead. I have suffered more than enough of that over the past 6 months, but my shoulders are fairly broad. Nevertheless this forum has affected my health with all the bullying, I have suffered on a many times daily basis.
Pat yourselves on the back that you have significantly reduced at least one pros health and possibly others.
As Kate correctly expresses, they were NOT the wrongdoer. The wrongdoer was the abductor. Same as a girl in a mini skirt that gets raped is NOT the wrongdoer either.
It amazes me that you cant see the difference.
I'm sorry that you're not feeling well Sadie and am saddened to hear that you've felt bullied. I haven't been here for six months, so can't comment in full, but I've always had the impression that you can give at least as good as you get. I personally have felt on times as though you've been quite rude to me with no provocation at all. I'm fine with that, I haven't felt bullied and simply put it down to feelings running high when people don't see eye to eye, but the point is that maybe if you were a little less quick to snap at people, they may treat you with more courtesy in return.
Any disagreement I have with your opinions is not a disagreement with you, the person behind the screen. Any slight against the Mccanns, either real or perceived, is not a slight against you.
To address your point about blaming the Mccanns being like blaming a rape victim for wearing a short skirt, firstly, shouldn't that be 'like blaming a rape victims parents for letting her go out in a short skirt'? Madeleine was the victim of a crime, not her parents.
Secondly, although the language that is used does some times sound like blame, I think 'shoulder some responsibility' is a better way of describing it.
I disagree that they have accepted any responsibility for their part in Madeleine's disappearance. The children shouldn't have been alone. They shouldn't have been out of ear shot. They were.
If there was indeed an abductor, they are to blame for their actions. S/he is not absolved from responsibility because the parents failed in their duty of care.
I hope you're feeling better soon Sadie and look forward to seeing your posts and picking your brains about PDL in the very near future x
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: icabodcrane on October 17, 2013, 03:29:27 PM
My words might be clumsy; I may have chosen the wrong word. I am better with images and logic than words. I accept that. If you want to trash me, then go ahead. I have suffered more than enough of that over the past 6 months, but my shoulders are fairly broad. Nevertheless this forum has affected my health with all the bullying, I have suffered on a many times daily basis.
Pat yourselves on the back that you have significantly reduced at least one pros health and possibly others.
As Kate correctly expresses, they were NOT the wrongdoer. The wrongdoer was the abductor. Same as a girl in a mini skirt that gets raped is NOT the wrongdoer either.
It amazes me that you cant see the difference.
Sorry you're not feeling well sadie, but it is not fair of you to blame your illness on forum members here
Perhaps it is the fact that Scotland Yard appear to have scotched your much vaunted and long cherished 'theory' that has affected your health, rather than being 'bullied' here ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 17, 2013, 03:41:40 PM
Logic tells us that no stupid abductor would take a child through the back doors, even if they were ever opened. Logic tells us that no abductor would take a child from inside an apartment when there are dozens of children playing on the street everyday. And much less would they take a child of that age when they had younger ones at hand on the exact same site.
Logic unfortunately goes on being assassinated... now by half a dozen e-fits that all look like aliens.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
Redwood must be following the mantra 'confusion is good'
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on October 17, 2013, 03:50:22 PM
Redwood must be following the mantra 'confusion is good'
I've seen that mentioned before - can you put the comment in context Jassi - as IIRC this is an example of a few words being taken out of context to give them a different meaning to the one that was intended?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2013, 03:57:17 PM
I've seen that mentioned before - can you put the comment in context Jassi - as IIRC this is an example of a few words being taken out of context to give them a different meaning to the one that was intended?
'fraid not. As far as I'm aware, its just a saying, possibly with political origins..
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 07:16:43 PM
That is most unfair, Sadie. You appear to be accusing me of being pleased if someone who is not well is upset by my posting. This is a discussion forum and people will say what they feel without expecting sideways accusations like that - if you do not feel well enough to post here, maybe you should not. No, I do not take delight in "significantly reducing your health" and I object to that accusation very strongly.
We had discussed earlier whether the McCanns had admitted that they were wrong to leave the children and I had said I had heard them say they regretted their actions but never admit to being in the wrong; then Kate made this comment in the preview of the CW programme and in my mind it was a very unwise comment to make, repeating that they had done no wrong. To my mind both were wrong - the McCanns and, obviously, the abductor if there was one. The one does not preclude the other.
And I have to agree with the last two posts - they say much what I have previously said.
You do NOT have not answer this, Sadie; indeed if you are going to accuse me of making your illness worse, I would rather you do not
in my view it is grossly unfair to expect the McCanns to don sack cloth and ashes and beg forgiveness. In my opinion there are far worse parents.
As a very experienced social worker you must have seen thousands of cases. Do you have any evidence...similar cases that heve been prosecuted ...that would support the idea that the McCanns are guilty of legal neglect
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 17, 2013, 07:26:42 PM
in my view it is grossly unfair to expect the McCanns to don sack cloth and ashes and beg forgiveness. In my opinion there are far worse parents.
As a very experienced social worker you must have seen thousands of cases. Do you have any evidence...similar cases that heve been prosecuted ...that would support the idea that the McCanns are guilty of legal neglect
I fully agree - there are far worse parents. That does not mean that any parents who are "less worse" than any others should not be criticised for what they do.
Your second point I have already answered - if I was to respond like you I would say a go and search for it! However here we are again, but next time I shall not repeat it: I had three sisters in care who had been removed from their parents under very similar circumstances. Can I prove it ? - no. All Social Work is confidential , as you know, so I am careful how I word my posts. So you can believe me or not as you wish, that is your decision.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 07:31:56 PM
I fully agree - there are far worse parents. That does not mean that any parents who are "less worse" than any others should not be criticised for what they do.
Your second point I have already answered - if I was to respond like you I would say a go and search for it! However here we are again, but next time I shall not repeat it: I had three sisters in care who had been removed from their parents under very similar circumstances. Can I prove it ? - no. All Social Work is confidential , as you know, so I am careful how I word my posts. So you can believe me or not as you wish, that is your decision.
if parents were prosecuted it would be in the public domain so there would be no confidentiality problem... obviously without the details we cant make a judgement on the case you mention but as its confidential it seems it didn't go to criminal prosecution. from what you have said and what I have raed it seems there is not a case for the prosecution of the McCanns as some posters claim
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Lace on October 17, 2013, 07:36:50 PM
I fully agree - there are far worse parents. That does not mean that any parents who are "less worse" than any others should not be criticised for what they do.
Your second point I have already answered - if I was to respond like you I would say a go and search for it! However here we are again, but next time I shall not repeat it: I had three sisters in care who had been removed from their parents under very similar circumstances. Can I prove it ? - no. All Social Work is confidential , as you know, so I am careful how I word my posts. So you can believe me or not as you wish, that is your decision.
I think the McCann's have been criticised CPN, they know full well what is being said about them. I think enough has been said though and that they are suffering with the loss of Madeleine, which should be enough pain for them.
They obviously love their daughter and miss her, they are doing everything they can to find her, and this constant attack about leaving her does nothing for the search for Madeleine.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 17, 2013, 07:40:59 PM
if parents were prosecuted it would be in the public domain so there would be no confidentiality problem... obviously without the details we cant make a judgement on the case you mention but as its confidential it seems it didn't go to criminal prosecution. from what you have said and what I have raed it seems there is not a case for the prosecution of the McCanns as some posters claim
Oh davel, please - I have said all this before also.
For Social Services (at least Children's Departments, I can't speak for others) prosecution is the last resort. If matters can be dealt with in other ways, they will be and I have made two suggestions for this - parenting classes, and the Child Protection Register. Incidentally when I worked in the Children's hospital I knew of one case where parenting classes were agreed to as an alternative to prosecution - and they were very successful in that case. That does not mean that there was not a case for prosecution it means that it was decided to deal with the situation in other ways.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Cariad on October 17, 2013, 08:57:47 PM
if parents were prosecuted it would be in the public domain so there would be no confidentiality problem... obviously without the details we cant make a judgement on the case you mention but as its confidential it seems it didn't go to criminal prosecution. from what you have said and what I have raed it seems there is not a case for the prosecution of the McCanns as some posters claim
Perhaps you could give us the details of another case where 3 children under four were left alone and one disappeared?
Then we can compare like for like.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 09:25:42 PM
Perhaps you could give us the details of another case where 3 children under four were left alone and one disappeared?
Then we can compare like for like.
That's the whole point. What happened to Maddie, the abduction, could just not have been expected because it is so rare
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 09:36:47 PM
Former Northern Ireland and Cheshire cop Edgar, 52, Edgar and his hard-core squad of four hand-picked investigators -drafted in by the McCanns last November – are also looking at records of six sex attacks against youngsters in the Algarve leading up to Madeleine’s kidnap. Again, these are poorly documented by the Portuguese.
“Most of attacks were overnight, in apartments and at least five involved British children,” he said. “I am looking for links to the Madeleine abduction – geographical links, links with the descriptions.”
The attacks are:
APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). Sex assault on 10-year-old girl.
JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. Sex assault on nine-year-old girl.
JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. Sex assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.
OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. Sex assault on eight-year-old girl
CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.
MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl’s bed.
Edgar told us: “Some of the attacks were in the files and some were in other documents that were not terribly obvious. Again I am subject to the frailties of the Portuguese authorities and have to work with what I have been given. I have tried to build bridges with them but have had no response. But we have access to other files that have not been released to the public and the media.”.
the above is a quote from Dave Edgar re paedophiles in the Algarve.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Cariad on October 17, 2013, 09:49:53 PM
That's the whole point. What happened to Maddie, the abduction, could just not have been expected because it is so rare
I thought you'd stated that abduction from the home was less rare than fatal accidents (not including fires or stair) and we've found through scrupulous and time consuming research that every year there are 55 fatalities to children resulting from accidents in the home (notincludingstairsorfire)?
In fact, iirc you said considerably more likely! so I guess that must be in the region of 70 or 80 abductions from the home each year?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 09:58:33 PM
I thought you'd stated that abduction from the home was less rare than fatal accidents (not including fires or stair) and we've found through scrupulous and time consuming research that every year there are 55 fatalities to children resulting from accidents in the home (notincludingstairsorfire)?
In fact, iirc you said considerably more likely! so I guess that must be in the region of 70 or 80 abductions from the home each year?
From my memory you are wrong on both points and as you are quoting them it is up to you to verify them
First , I can guarantee that I never used the word "considerably" you little fibber
Secondly the figure of 55 is as I remember your own estimate
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Cariad on October 17, 2013, 10:22:57 PM
From my memory you are wrong on both points and as you are quoting them it is up to you to verify them
First , I can guarantee that I never used the word "considerably" you little fibber
Secondly the figure of 55 is as I remember your own estimate
davel:the reason for fatal accidents with children in the home are extremely small and are almost exclusively related to stairs. no stairs in the appt
Ive already seen this article and as I pointed out to you fatal accidents in the home re children in the vast majority of cases involve stairs or fires. No fire in PDL, no stairs in PDL.., making a stranger adduction far more likely...in your opening post you stated that the chance of stranger abduction was miniscule..it isn't ..your figure Is 68 that's not miniscule
icabod:oh for God's sake !
Please ... please ... don't present the case that young children who are left unattended at home are more at risk of stranger abduction that fatal accidents
... just for the sake of not making yourself look simple ... please don't do that
Davel: Its not me saying that its the statistic supplied by the poster. Its called evidence
icabdod:WHAT ?
Are you claiming that 'statistically' infants left alone are more likely to be snatched from their bed by strangers than they are to suffer serious or fatal injury ?
Is that what you are claiming ?
davel:ve already answered this question this morning but you don't seem to have the intelligence to understand..lets keep it simple...stranger abductions..68....fatal accidents 120...source ..figures from post by cariad If you factor out deaths from fires and stairs....which are the most common reasons for fatalities in the home abduction is much more likely
no stairs or fires in PDL so it is far more likely...that Maddie was abducted.. thats what Sy think as well
davel:It is actually what the evidence supports...even personal experience shows that although children have accidents at home it is unusual that these accidents are fatal. fatal ones usually involve fires or stairs...none of these in the pdl appt. The figure of 68 for abductions is surprisingly high. I don't expect you to understand a post based on logic..blind prejudice is your forte as you have regularly shown
davel:lets just get straight what I actually said
Quote from: davel on September 29, 2013, 08:44:44 PM you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common
Now that is entirely different to abductions are more common than fatal accidents
davel:you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common IMO
Can you prove me wrong
Cariad:"Falls are the most common accidents, which can cause serious injury at any time of life. Fifty-five per cent of accidental injuries in the home involve falls"
I'm going to be excessively kind to you and remove 55% of the 120 deaths (despite the citation saying falls, not stairs and accidents not fatalities) leaving a total of 54 deaths.
I'm going to be generous again and leave in the sole example of the one child taken from the bath as a successful stranger abduction from the home, even though he was known to the family and invited inside the dwelling.
The fiures now read 54 v's 1.
If you wish to disagree with this total davel, you'll need to supply your own figures to back it up.
davel:the reason for fatal accidents with children in the home are extremely small and are almost exclusively related to stairs. no stairs in the appt
Ive already seen this article and as I pointed out to you fatal accidents in the home re children in the vast majority of cases involve stairs or fires. No fire in PDL, no stairs in PDL.., making a stranger adduction far more likely...in your opening post you stated that the chance of stranger abduction was miniscule..it isn't ..your figure Is 68 that's not miniscule
icabod:oh for God's sake !
Please ... please ... don't present the case that young children who are left unattended at home are more at risk of stranger abduction that fatal accidents
... just for the sake of not making yourself look simple ... please don't do that
Davel: Its not me saying that its the statistic supplied by the poster. Its called evidence
icabdod:WHAT ?
Are you claiming that 'statistically' infants left alone are more likely to be snatched from their bed by strangers than they are to suffer serious or fatal injury ?
Is that what you are claiming ?
davel:ve already answered this question this morning but you don't seem to have the intelligence to understand..lets keep it simple...stranger abductions..68....fatal accidents 120...source ..figures from post by cariad If you factor out deaths from fires and stairs....which are the most common reasons for fatalities in the home abduction is much more likely
no stairs or fires in PDL so it is far more likely...that Maddie was abducted.. thats what Sy think as well
davel:It is actually what the evidence supports...even personal experience shows that although children have accidents at home it is unusual that these accidents are fatal. fatal ones usually involve fires or stairs...none of these in the pdl appt. The figure of 68 for abductions is surprisingly high. I don't expect you to understand a post based on logic..blind prejudice is your forte as you have regularly shown
davel:lets just get straight what I actually said
Quote from: davel on September 29, 2013, 08:44:44 PM you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common
Now that is entirely different to abductions are more common than fatal accidents
davel:you have managed to supply one example, not the thousand hits from google that you expected, fatal accidents in the home, not involving stairs or fires are incredibly rare. Stranger abduction from the home is almost certainly more common IMO
Can you prove me wrong
Cariad:"Falls are the most common accidents, which can cause serious injury at any time of life. Fifty-five per cent of accidental injuries in the home involve falls"
I'm going to be excessively kind to you and remove 55% of the 120 deaths (despite the citation saying falls, not stairs and accidents not fatalities) leaving a total of 54 deaths.
I'm going to be generous again and leave in the sole example of the one child taken from the bath as a successful stranger abduction from the home, even though he was known to the family and invited inside the dwelling.
The fiures now read 54 v's 1.
If you wish to disagree with this total davel, you'll need to supply your own figures to back it up.
firstly, you're right, you didn't say 'considerably' although calling me a liar is both against forum rules and rude. It was an honest mistake.
secondly, You'll see above how the figure of 54 (again, I apologise, not 55 as I previously stated) was worked out.
if you read the part of the post highlighted in red you will see that there are no figures for accidents in the home not involving stairs and fires so you have made YOUR OWN approximations
these are not official figures these are your figures
I called you a little fibber...please do not make statements attributed to me that I haven't made
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Cariad on October 17, 2013, 10:40:31 PM
if you read the part of the post highlighted in red you will see that there are no figures for accidents in the home not involving stairs and fires so you have made YOUR OWN approximations
these are not official figures these are your figures
I called you a little fibber...please do not make statements attributed to me that I haven't made
What's the difference between calling me a fibber and calling me a liar?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: icabodcrane on October 17, 2013, 10:43:11 PM
What's the difference between calling me a fibber and calling me a liar?
If I answer that question I may well get banned. There are many on here who would like to see me banned because I ask awkward questions and challenge inaccuracies... you have just made two....which otherwise would go unchallenged
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 10:44:37 PM
If I answer that question I may well get banned. There are many on here who would like to see me banned because I ask awkward questions and challenge inaccuracies... you have just made two....which otherwise would go unchallenged
I took away all the falls! Every single fall that killed! Since there are no figures, I very, very generously gave you the benefit of the doubt!
What would you like me to have done?
You do it. The figure for all fatalities caused by accidents in the home is 120 per annum.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Redblossom on October 17, 2013, 10:52:25 PM
I took away all the falls! Every single fall that killed! Since there are no figures, I very, very generously gave you the benefit of the doubt!
What would you like me to have done?
You do it. The figure for all fatalities caused by accidents in the home is 120 per annum.
exactly....which is double the amount of abductions....and that is abductions in general, not toddler ones and let alone from home! Well said, no contest gnite
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2013, 10:55:05 PM
Former Northern Ireland and Cheshire cop Edgar, 52, Edgar and his hard-core squad of four hand-picked investigators -drafted in by the McCanns last November – are also looking at records of six sex attacks against youngsters in the Algarve leading up to Madeleine’s kidnap. Again, these are poorly documented by the Portuguese.
“Most of attacks were overnight, in apartments and at least five involved British children,” he said. “I am looking for links to the Madeleine abduction – geographical links, links with the descriptions.”
The attacks are:
APRIL 14, 2004: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from Praia da Luz (PDA). Sex assault on 10-year-old girl.
JUNE 9 2005: Sao Rafael, near Sesmarias, 50 miles from PDA. Sex assault on nine-year-old girl.
JUNE 2 2006: Praia do Carvoeiro, Lagoa, 20 miles from PDA. Sex assault on seven-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister in separate rooms.
OCTOBER 29 2006: Albufeira, 45 miles from PDA. Sex assault on eight-year-old girl
CHRISTMAS DAY, 2006: Silves, 35 miles from PDA. Attempted abduction of three-year-old girl.
MAY 28 2007: Albufeira. 45 miles from PDA. Intruder disturbed at the bottom of nine-year-old girl’s bed.
Edgar told us: “Some of the attacks were in the files and some were in other documents that were not terribly obvious. Again I am subject to the frailties of the Portuguese authorities and have to work with what I have been given. I have tried to build bridges with them but have had no response. But we have access to other files that have not been released to the public and the media.”.
the above is a quote from Dave Edgar re paedophiles in the Algarve.
That's quite scary, not just that it was happening, but that it was poorly documented. Eamon Holmes was talking on Sky a couple of days ago that in his personal experience the authorities in the Algarve turn a bit of a blind eye to crimes such as theft and burglary committed against holidaymakers because they're seen as not worth the time.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 18, 2013, 09:14:18 AM
now sadie knows how i feel 6 years of chucky mispell etc and other abuse and i have several real chronic conditions
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Jazzy on October 18, 2013, 04:12:14 PM
does anyone know what kate says in her book about leaving the children
I haven't read her book but I did see her in an interview say that there was never a day went by that she didn't think "if only"...or words to that effect. That's how I recall it anyway.
My answer to the OP's question is yes, 50 meters was too far. Unquestionably Maddie should not have been left. I think Kate's own mother is on record as saying she has said as much to Kate and Gerald. It was a grievous mistake and grievously they have paid for it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 22, 2013, 09:23:03 PM
I haven't read her book but I did see her in an interview say that there was never a day went by that she didn't think "if only"...or words to that effect. That's how I recall it anyway.
My answer to the OP's question is yes, 50 meters was too far. Unquestionably Maddie should not have been left. I think Kate's own mother is on record as saying she has said as much to Kate and Gerald. It was a grievous mistake and grievously they have paid for it.
Just a couple of comments, Haskins
* It was not only Madeleine who was left - it was her younger twin siblings also * It was a repeated decision, not a one off mistake * the main reason why young children should not be left out of sight and hearing is not because of the (very rare) possibility of abduction, but because of the far more frequent occurrence of accidents to young children
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 22, 2013, 09:33:12 PM
* It was not only Madeleine who was left - it was her younger twin siblings also * It was a repeated decision, not a one off mistake * the main reason why young children should not be left out of sight and hearing is not because of the (very rare) possibility of abduction, but because of the far more frequent occurrence of accidents to young children
what an absolute load of complete rubbish. children have been put to bed and left alone in holiday accommodation for years..and guess what...how many recorded accidents can you recall ..
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Haskins on October 22, 2013, 09:36:32 PM
* It was not only Madeleine who was left - it was her younger twin siblings also * It was a repeated decision, not a one off mistake * the main reason why young children should not be left out of sight and hearing is not because of the (very rare) possibility of abduction, but because of the far more frequent occurrence of accidents to young children
But unfortunately it cannot now be undone and they have to look forward and not back, because crucifying themselves will avail them nothing. At least if they can help find Maddie they could, at least to a small extent, make amends.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 22, 2013, 09:38:25 PM
But unfortunately it cannot now be undone and they have to look forward and not back, because crucifying themselves will avail them nothing. At least if they can help find Maddie they could, at least to a small extent, make amends.
True - but - the message still has to go out for the sake of other children
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 22, 2013, 09:39:18 PM
what an absolute load of complete rubbish. children have been put to bed and left alone in holiday accommodation for years..and guess what...how many recorded accidents can you recall ..
Put to bed & left alone for 'years'...?. Jesus wept! Those are some seriously sleepy children.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 22, 2013, 09:39:27 PM
I haven't read her book but I did see her in an interview say that there was never a day went by that she didn't think "if only"...or words to that effect. That's how I recall it anyway.
My answer to the OP's question is yes, 50 meters was too far. Unquestionably Maddie should not have been left. I think Kate's own mother is on record as saying she has said as much to Kate and Gerald. It was a grievous mistake and grievously they have paid for it.
you are in total denial...we have established that children were left regularly at butlins...are also still left at countless hotels...but no accidents..please stop posting this fallacy unless you can back it up with facts
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: CPN on October 22, 2013, 09:41:36 PM
you are in total denial...we have established that children were left regularly at butlins...are also still left at countless hotels...but no accidents..please stop posting this fallacy unless you can back it up with facts
Where have you established that there were no accidents to children left in hotels or at Butlins?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 22, 2013, 09:43:29 PM
I would go even further and I think the figures would support me...far more children have come to harm having been taken away from their families and put in care by social workers than have come to harm having been left to sleep in holiday accommodation
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Haskins on October 22, 2013, 09:44:44 PM
you are in total denial...we have established that children were left regularly at butlins...are also still left at countless hotels...but no accidents..please stop posting this fallacy unless you can back it up with facts
davel I agree with the gist of the point you are making. i.e. they made a risk assessment and not in their worst nightmares did they imagine that what did happen would happen.Also I am not saying that thousands of other parents have not done the same thing. What I am saying, and I appreciate that hindsight is 20/20, is that they made a mistake. I am sure that they themselves acknowledge this.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Haskins on October 22, 2013, 09:46:09 PM
I would go even further and I think the figures would support me...far more children have come to harm having been taken away from their families and put in care by social workers than have come to harm having been left to sleep in holiday accommodation
can you argue with that...no you cant
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Cariad on October 22, 2013, 10:05:38 PM
davel, you've just quoted yourself and then replied to your own post.....you are actually now arging with yourself 8@??)(
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 24, 2015, 07:32:54 PM
What about smoking Luz? Was it permitted in Portuguese restaurants in 2007?
OLD TOPIC WARNING!!!
The answer is yes in 2007.
Smoking was banned in pubs and restaurants in Portugal (with certain exceptions) from 1st Jan 2008.
In this case it is extremely unfortunate, as if the restriction was in place in Madeleine's day, more people would have nipped out for a drag, and we might have had more info on Smithman for example.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 24, 2015, 08:01:47 PM
Smoking was banned in pubs and restaurants in Portugal (with certain exceptions) from 1st Jan 2008.
In this case it is extremely unfortunate, as if the restriction was in place in Madeleine's day, more people would have nipped out for a drag, and we might have had more info on Smithman for example.
Doubt it, many Southern European countries establishments still allowed smoking inside despite the official bans, some with or without measures taken (legally permitted) to mitigate smoke inside them...besides most restaraunts and bars do have outdoor seating and people have no problem sitting/smoking there
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Montclair on October 24, 2015, 08:44:39 PM
Doubt it, many Southern European countries establishments still allowed smoking inside despite the official bans, some with or without measures taken (legally permitted) to mitigate smoke inside them...besides most restaraunts and bars do have outdoor seating and people have no problem sitting/smoking there
Despite what you think of the Portuguese, the bans on smoking are strongly enforced and it is rare to see anyone trying to smoke inside. Often, you see people standing outside of the restaurants taking a few puffs on their cigarettes before going back in. They are also very strict on cleanliness and hygiene in the kitchens and toilets and there are regular inspections.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 24, 2015, 08:50:40 PM
Despite what you think of the Portuguese, the bans on smoking are strongly enforced and it is rare to see anyone trying to smoke inside. Often, you see people standing outside of the restaurants taking a few puffs on their cigarettes before going back in. They are also very strict on cleanliness and hygiene in the kitchens and toilets and there are regular inspections.
I made no reference to the Portuguese in particular, or said what I think of them as I don't know them, or the country, I was talking about south European countries in general, a few I have visited several times (not Portugal though) and the smoking ban was certainly not a blanket ban, at least in the first few years it was introduced, and in some areas not even now
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 09:53:57 PM
I can just imagine some lawyers and PR peeps sitting at that same tapas table a few days later saying: "jeez this table is a long long way from that child bedroom, how can we trick people into thinking it was closer, oh how about we pretend the child's bed was not in the far bedroom let's pretend the bed was on the balcony and just measure to the balcony, that will shave about 10 metres off the real distance, oh and let's pretend the doctors were actually crows and could fly, that gets rid of another 30 metres, great, we're down to 50 metres now".
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 24, 2015, 10:30:27 PM
I can just imagine some lawyers and PR peeps sitting at that same tapas table a few days later saying: "jeez this table is a long long way from that child bedroom, how can we trick people into thinking it was closer, oh how about we pretend the child's bed was not in the far bedroom let's pretend the bed was on the balcony and just measure to the balcony, that will shave about 10 metres off the real distance, oh and let's pretend the doctors were actually crows and could fly, that gets rid of another 30 metres, great, we're down to 50 metres now".
I make it 50m from the Tapas restaurant to the reception/exit and then 60m to the top of the road.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 24, 2015, 11:02:35 PM
I make it 50m from the Tapas restaurant to the reception/exit and then 60m to the top of the road.
It is 90 metres from the restaurant table to the child's bed. Proof attached. The "measure distance" feature on Gmaps is very useful (especially when it comes to proving that certain PR advisors and lawyers have told us barefaced lies).
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 24, 2015, 11:19:20 PM
It is 90 metres from the restaurant table to the child's bed. Proof attached. The "measure distance" feature on Gmaps is very useful (especially when it comes to proving that certain PR advisors and lawyers have told us barefaced lies).
Don't blame them it's their job to lie as much as possible
It was still 50 metres as the crow flies though......and we all know a crow might act as a carrier pidgeon with a message if the kids out of sight and hearing had a problem!! Cos God knows know else else would
Kate says 70m btw here at 3.30
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 24, 2015, 11:20:29 PM
It is 90 metres from the restaurant table to the child's bed. Proof attached. The "measure distance" feature on Gmaps is very useful (especially when it comes to proving that certain PR advisors and lawyers have told us barefaced lies).
How many seconds away?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 24, 2015, 11:24:23 PM
"I sat at that same tapas bar and I could see virtually the whole of the patio windows, top to almost bottom and side to side. Their view would not be as good as mine cos they were a little further west"
Why didn't you go sit at the same table and describe the view from sitting at the actual table?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 24, 2015, 11:43:23 PM
but if you weren't flying but walking in a hurry, say because you saw or heard something amiss? Maybe 20 seconds?
But it was 90 metres from table to child Alfred and to do 90 metres in 20 seconds you'd have to run at 10mph. "Walking in a hurry" is not fast enough. Even expert walking race competitors go at under 10mph.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 12:00:16 AM
But it was 90 metres from table to child Alfred and to do 90 metres in 20 seconds you'd have to run at 10mph. "Walking in a hurry" is not fast enough. Even expert walking race competitors go at under 10mph.
so you could run there in 20 seconds quite easily?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 25, 2015, 12:01:06 AM
but if you weren't flying but walking in a hurry, say because you saw or heard something amiss? Maybe 20 seconds?
No. 4mph is slightly above 100m/minute. Normal pace.
Try elite athlete, 100m in 10 secs still suggests short of the mark.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 12:19:43 AM
The time it would take anyone to get to their apartment is of no relevance to anything ..their kids could be dead and they wouldn't know it for half an hour later, whether they got their in 6 or 30 seconds, such a stupid argument surrounding how long it takes them to leave their sangria and tapas to go check,,,and let's face it, even if they were dead, they wouldn't know at all all night whilst checking as they never did a visual check, fact..oh oh oh apart from that one night, alledegdly, go argue it
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 12:20:53 AM
Do you mean literally a crow flying? Or a doctor flying like a crow? And it depends on what species of crow. The American crow can reportedly fly at 30 to 60 mph and even reach 70 mph in a dive. However I believe they are not native to that land. Also it would depend on whether the crow is carrying a heavy food item in its beak. BTW I am not making light of a very serious matter, I am in fact rubbishing the PR who quoted "crow-flying" distances which are irrelevant to the child who had no wings, and even then they measured to the balcony instead of the child's bed, as if they they were there to "image-manage" the disappearance of a plastic chair from the balcony.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 12:39:03 AM
The time it would take anyone to get to their apartment is of no relevance to anything ..their kids could be dead and they wouldn't know it for half an hour later, whether they got their in 6 or 30 seconds, such a stupid argument surrounding how long it takes them to leave their sangria and tapas to go check,,,and let's face it, even if they were dead, they wouldn't know at all all night whilst checking as they never did a visual check, fact..oh oh oh apart from that one night, alledegdly, go argue it
Yes whether it was 85 metres or 95 metres makes little difference as there was absolutely no line of sight and no audibility of the child bedroom - as you say, nothing. But the PR which appeared from just a few days after and up to now included incorrect statements of the distance which ignored the actual location of the child (north bedroom) and the fact that doctors are not avians, Therefore it's important to correct that PR manipulation rubbish with the correct distance from the perspective of the child, which is 90 metres.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 25, 2015, 12:40:45 AM
Do you mean literally a crow flying? Or a doctor flying like a crow? And it depends on what species of crow. The American crow can reportedly fly at 30 to 60 mph and even reach 70 mph in a dive. However I believe they are not native to that land. Also it would depend on whether the crow is carrying a heavy food item in its beak. BTW I am not making light of a very serious matter, I am in fact rubbishing the PR who quoted "crow-flying" distances which are irrelevant to the child who had no wings, and even then they measured to the balcony instead of the child's bed, as if they they were there to "image-manage" the disappearance of a plastic chair from the balcony.
We are lucky enough to have a pair of crows, which produce 2 sets of babies each year, nesting in a huge lime tree at the bottom of our garden. They are fascinating to watch, except when they have living fledgling blackbirds in their beaks. The parents are huge and can cover a good distance in a very short space of time. Crow-flying distance is merely a reference to the shortest measurable distance between 2 points from an aerial perspective. The terrain & obstacles on the ground may well considerably extend the distance & time coverage between the same 2 points. I think we have all long got past the point that the McCanns could not possibly have seen the lower half of the patio door or heard anyone calling from the balcony. I understand there was also music in the Tapas Bar.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 12:45:03 AM
Yes whether it was 85 metres or 95 metres makes little difference as there was absolutely no line of sight and no audibility of the child bedroom - as you say, nothing. But the PR which appeared just a few days after included incorrect statements of the distance which ignored the actual location of the child (north bedroom) and the fact that doctors are not avians, and therefore it's important to correct that PR manipulation rubbish with the correct distance from the perspective of the child, which is 90 metres.
Yup that's any rational and reasonable persons take
Not sure why any PR or lawyer and mccanns even bothered to lie and mitigate in the circumstances....was only going to be hoisted by own petard which seems to have become an ongoing pattern for a few years in a variety of issues
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 01:00:59 AM
We are lucky enough to have a pair of crows, which produce 2 sets of babies each year, nesting in a huge lime tree at the bottom of our garden. They are fascinating to watch, except when they have living fledgling blackbirds in their beaks. The parents are huge and can cover a good distance in a very short space of time. Crow-flying distance is merely a reference to the shortest measurable distance between 2 points from an aerial perspective. The terrain & obstacles on the ground may well considerably extend the distance & time coverage between the same 2 points. I think we have all long got past the point that the McCanns could not possibly have seen the lower half of the patio door or heard anyone calling from the balcony. I understand there was also music in the Tapas Bar.
Presumably your crows do responsible parenting at a travel distance of 90 metres providing they have a clear line of site to the children in the nest and of course they also have good audibilty. Good point about music at tapas - do we have a source?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 01:10:29 AM
Yup that's any rational and reasonable persons take
Not sure why any PR or lawyer and mccanns even bothered to lie and mitigate in the circumstances....was only going to be hoisted by own petard which seems to have become an ongoing pattern for a few years in a variety of issues
Those PR and legal types who at sat at the table and came up that stuff made a mistake imagining the GBP would swallow it IMO.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 01:12:46 AM
Presumably your crows do responsible parenting at a travel distance of 90 metres providing they have a clear line of site to the children in the nest and of course they also have good audibilty. Good point about music at tapas - do we have a source?
lol
SOMEONE told Philomena McCann the parents had a clear line of sight to the kids though she didn't mention crows
This was a lie
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 01:16:25 AM
Those PR and legal types who at sat at the table and came up that stuff made a mistake imagining the GBP would swallow it IMO.
Pretty sad such imbeciles get paid so much for actually damaging their clients , but I'm sure they both made enough to buy a jag or two ...the amounts paid to lawyers and PR and other professional "servers" from the Madeleine fund was horrendously high...they got more than anyone actually looking for Madeleine
Presumably your crows do responsible parenting at a travel distance of 90 metres providing they have a clear line of site to the children in the nest and of course they also have good audibilty. Good point about music at tapas - do we have a source?
Every year one of the babies leaves the nest before it can fly. The baby often ends up hiding in the undergrowth & the parenting is seemingly blind but very audible, even at night. The Tapas music - http://blogs.thisismoney.co.uk/2007/05/my_experience_o.html *snipped* I can imagine the McCanns’ dilemma. The ‘dining out club’ was more than a five-minute walk from where the McCanns stayed along cobbled streets or a winding pedestrian path through the apartments. It’s not far - it worked brilliantly for us on most nights - but it would have felt much further if you had to ferry thee children there and back (and hope they were still asleep after doing so). Plus parents were required to wait until children under two, which includes the McCanns’ twins, were asleep. We talked to parents who said this was enough to put them off the option.
The McCanns opted instead to eat 40-50m from their apartment, not much more than a pool’s width away. They hoped it would be just close enough to hear a crying baby but with bar music playing and restaurant hubbub, it wasn’t close enough to hear what happened to Madeleine that night.
I can't imagine what they're going through now. I, along with millions others, only hope they can find her soon and safe.
- Andrew Oxlade, Editor, This is Money
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 01:31:37 AM
Pretty sad such imbeciles get paid so much for actually damaging their clients , but I'm sure they both made enough to buy a jag or two ...the amounts paid to lawyers and PR and other professional "servers" from the Madeleine fund was horrendously high...they got more than anyone actually looking for Madeleine
I imagine they got paid a bit more than the many volunteers who spent many days searching the surrounding countryside. Back on topic, the if-docs-could-fly distance from table to child was 60 metres. Anyone disputing that?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 01:37:27 AM
Thanks for that confirmation that there was music played at tapas bar Misty.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 25, 2015, 01:42:09 AM
I imagine they got paid a bit more than the many volunteers who spent many days searching the surrounding countryside. Back on topic, the if-docs-could-fly distance from table to child was 60 metres. Anyone disputing that?
Yes the souls that went out day and night after day and night and took it off working or holidays but the fragrant Kate had the gall to utter could have organised ther search better whlst she did no searchng but sat indoors prayng and texting and then breaking beds or something
The relevant distance doesn't matter does it? If the kids were on fire And unless the tapas group were all jumbo the elephants couldn't hear them either in other words they had no idea whatsoever what state their kids were in from where they were
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 06:06:37 AM
Yes the souls that went out day and night after day and night and took it off working or holidays but the fragrant Kate had the gall to utter could have organised ther search better whlst she did no searchng but sat indoors prayng and texting and then breaking beds or something
The relevant distance doesn't matter does it? If the kids were on fire And unless the tapas group were all jumbo the elephants couldn't hear them either in other words they had no idea whatsoever what state their kids were in from where they were
I'm certainly not criticising KM, and I'm not interested in the 90 metres itself, I'm only interested in solving the major issue which is where exactly did the child end up.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 06:16:19 AM
I'm certainly not criticising KM, and I'm not interested in the 90 metres itself, I'm only interested in solving the major issue which is where exactly did the child end up.
Long gone, and long ago out of Portugal. And No, the distance isn't important because it wasn't very far. And having done the same myself I am in no position to criticise anyone.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 08:30:23 AM
The fact that they tried so hard to minimise the distance and maximise the line of sight is what's relevant. The distance was clearly greater and the line of sight less. Honesty is the best policy and trying to excuse what they did may not have been the best strategy.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 08:36:44 AM
The fact that they tried so hard to minimise the distance and maximise the line of sight is what's relevant. The distance was clearly greater and the line of sight less. Honesty is the best policy and trying to excuse what they did may not have been the best strategy.
And nor was it honest to make it seem any worse than it was. Like Chaplin's for instance.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 09:33:35 AM
And nor was it honest to make it seem any worse than it was. Like Chaplin's for instance.
Rumours abounded, mostly untrue. The rumour about Chaplins seems to have originated simply in a newspaper's comments section. There's a difference between unsubstantiated rumours and misleading statements from two of the main witnesses, surely?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on October 25, 2015, 09:35:52 AM
The fact that they tried so hard to minimise the distance and maximise the line of sight is what's relevant. The distance was clearly greater and the line of sight less. Honesty is the best policy and trying to excuse what they did may not have been the best strategy.
Maybe the actual distance was quoted to counter the many grossly exaggerated distances being claimed at the time?
IMO the amount of extreme critcism aimed at the McCanns for the last 8 years would be justified if the McCanns had (for instance) left their children wide awake - running round the apartment - and after throwing them a box of matches to play with - went off and spent the night clubbing. How sitting less than 60 seconds walk away from your sleeping children and checking on them every 30 minutes has been transformed into the No 1 crime of the century when it comes to children - is totally incomprehensible to me.
I note the fact that the thousands of parents who have committed the same apparently horrendous 'crime' as the McCanns did whilst on holiday - i.e. left their children asleep and gone to dinner - is still being studiously ignored.
It's almost as if sceptics want to believe that the McCanns are the only people in the world to have done this - as even acknowledging that these thousands of other parents exist - (let alone claiming they are all just as guilty as the McCanns for doing the same) - appears to be a problem for some sceptics IMO. Why is that?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 09:36:14 AM
Rumours abounded, mostly untrue. The rumour about Chaplins seems to have originated simply in a newspaper's comments section. There's a difference between unsubstantiated rumours and misleading statements from two of the main witnesses, surely?
You have walked the walk, have you?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 09:38:25 AM
If you are referring to me walking from the Tapas restaurant to the apartment there's no need. We know the distance.
is the difference 50....100yds ...of any significance. There are far more statements that are misleading...by those opposed to the mccanns...that you seem to have no problem with...that's clear bias
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 10:02:29 AM
is the difference 50....100yds ...of any significance. There are far more statements that are misleading...by those opposed to the mccanns...that you seem to have no problem with...that's clear bias
Well, the mccanns weren't in the back garden and their attention was elsewhere.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 10:03:35 AM
is the difference 50....100yds ...of any significance. There are far more statements that are misleading...by those opposed to the mccanns...that you seem to have no problem with...that's clear bias
Cites?
As I already said, rumours abounded, but that's not the point. The people involved are more important and if they 'spun' the facts it raised doubts. That damaged them far more than unsubstantiated rumours by others.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 10:14:03 AM
As I already said, rumours abounded, but that's not the point. The people involved are more important and if they 'spun' the facts it raised doubts. That damaged them far more than unsubstantiated rumours by others.
only amongst a very tiny group of sceptics on the net. Do you really think the average member of the public is concerned with such things...they are not. It is just a small group ....of which you are one...who want to spend hours looking for things to criticise ....they are of no significance whatsoever
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 25, 2015, 12:34:44 PM
I still haven't heard them say they were WRONG Sadie, and also never discuss it without making excuses.
To be honest, I am not interested in how far away they were, be it whatever many metres - they were out of sight and hearing of three very young, vulnerable children - that is enough for me
Yes, this is the problem I had and continue to have. Not once have I heard them say 'please do not do what we did and don't leave your children unattended when you go abroad'!The excuses are something else! I hope they look back and think what the hell was I thinking saying that! But I so doubt it, such is their arrogance.
The distance in the dark, and music playing in the Tapas bar would suggest they could not 'see/hear' their children. Previous nights of the children crying were not only ignored but dismissed by the parents when challenged by their daughter.
The other point: if they could see /hear the children, as they were so close and were checking every half hour as they claimed, how did they miss the abductor?
PR from the beginning, what are they hiding? the shame of neglecting their children in the eyes of many?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 25, 2015, 12:54:39 PM
Doubt it, many Southern European countries establishments still allowed smoking inside despite the official bans, some with or without measures taken (legally permitted) to mitigate smoke inside them...besides most restaraunts and bars do have outdoor seating and people have no problem sitting/smoking there
Wiki "Portuguese Law 37/2007 governs various aspects of the consumption, sale and control of tobacco in Portugal, and lists a large number of enclosed spaces where smoking is not permitted, including such obvious cases as schools, hospitals and theatres. The law states that exceptions to the no-smoking rule may be made in the cases, inter alia, of enclosed eating and drinking establishments (i.e. restaurants, cafes and bars) not frequented by under-18s if the smoking area is physically separated from the non-smoking area or where ventilation and air extraction systems directed towards the exterior are effective to the point of preventing smoke from entering the non-smoking area, and that in the case of establishments with a floor area of more than 100 square metres no more than 40% (if physically separated) or 30% otherwise may be designated a smoking area. In effect, restaurants are almost always smoke-free as are most cafes whose trade is mainly for food, whereas in bars the law is ignored by customers and bar owners alike. A study published in 2011 by the Ministry of Health showed 90% compliance with the law in establishments with a total smoking ban, but only 50% compliance in establishments where smoking is partly or wholly permitted (i.e., most bars)."
It came into effect on 1 Jan 2008. The Bull, the Luz Tavern and Café Jasmim (Rua Direita) installed extraction systems, permitting smoking inside.
The rest put up mandatory no smoking signs at the entrance so customers knew before they entered whether smoking was permitted indoors or not.
And I did say it was a shame it was not implemented before Madeleine went missing, as it would have meant more people were nipping outside for a smoke.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 01:33:46 PM
Yes, this is the problem I had and continue to have. Not once have I heard them say 'please do not do what we did and don't leave your children unattended when you go abroad'!The excuses are something else! I hope they look back and think what the hell was I thinking saying that! But I so doubt it, such is their arrogance.
The distance in the dark, and music playing in the Tapas bar would suggest they could not 'see/hear' their children. Previous nights of the children crying were not only ignored but dismissed by the parents when challenged by their daughter.
The other point: if they could see /hear the children, as they were so close and were checking every half hour as they claimed, how did they miss the abductor?
PR from the beginning, what are they hiding? the shame of neglecting their children in the eyes of many?
I think its ridiculous to expect them to blame themselves when the person who should be blamed is the abductor
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 25, 2015, 01:41:22 PM
I think its ridiculous to expect them to blame themselves when the person who should be blamed is the abductor
They should have taken reponsibility of facilitating any abduction they claim to have happened. Their 'image' was more important to them. It did backfire fast, which is a shame because if their daughter was abducted then they should share the responsibility or her mortal state , whatever that is. Why do they have a problem with that?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 01:45:55 PM
They should have taken reponsibility of facilitating any abduction they claim to have happened. Their 'image' was more important to them. It did backfire fast, which is a shame because if their daughter was abducted then they should share the responsibility or her mortal state , whatever that is. Why do they have a problem with that?
I don't think they do have a problem. What do you want them to do? Crawl on their hands and knees and flagellate themselves?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 25, 2015, 01:52:30 PM
I don't think they do have a problem. What do you want them to do? Crawl on their hands and knees and flagellate themselves?
No, somewhere between the carefully worded expression of regret and anything as OTT as that. A straight forward acceptance of the blame for leaving the kids as exposed as they did would help.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 25, 2015, 01:57:19 PM
What do these people want from the parents of these unfortunate children......Blood?
April Jones' mum Coral says family has 'had enough' after messages blame her for five-year-old's murder
I don't think they do have a problem. What do you want them to do? Crawl on their hands and knees and flagellate themselves?
No, I don't feel I need to see that. I am not judge and jury, I am expressing an opinion on their behaviour. However, I find their ommitance of responsibility a bit creepy to be honest. They seem quite happy to sit back and point fingers at other people for what they did not do, which leaves me feeling they are hiding something.
Not being totally honest with the police and the public about the circumstances surrounding their child care arrangements certainly causes concern. They brush it off as if it's something everyone in the UK does.
I know you say you can't point fingers in that respect because you did it yourself, as do many others I am led to believe, but that doesn't make it right. AND would I be wrong in thinking if your children perished you would say it wasn't your fault cos everyone leaves their children. Hmm Think about that one.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 02:17:30 PM
No, I don't feel I need to see that. I am not judge and jury, I am expressing an opinion on their behaviour. However, I find their ommitance of responsibility a bit creepy to be honest. They seem quite happy to sit back and point fingers at other people for what they did not do, which leaves me feeling they are hiding something.
Not being totally honest with the police and the public about the circumstances surrounding their child care arrangements certainly causes concern. They brush it off as if it's something everyone in the UK does.
I know you say you can't point fingers in that respect because you did it yourself, as do many others I am led to believe, but that doesn't make it right. AND would I be wrong in thinking if your children perished you would say it wasn't your fault cos ever yone leaves their children. Hmm Think about that one.
you are totally wrong....The McCannns had professional counselling....the first thing they would have been told is you mustn't blame yourselves....this would be very important to their recovery from a very traumatic episode
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 25, 2015, 02:20:22 PM
They have atoned for any perceived sins by devoting their lives to finding out what happened to Madeleine. Their success in achieving their aim of having Madeleine's case reopened and the search for answers to her disappearance can be measured by the opprobrium directed at them from some quarters.
What we do not know at present is if Madeleine's abduction was carried out by an opportunist taking advantage of their absence or if she was targeted.
If the latter it would have made not the slightest difference to events.
If the former ... that is something they have to live with and I doubt they need to be reminded of it ... that they have not caved in to despair as a result but have set about helping others and campaigning for Madeleine is to their credit.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 02:25:57 PM
No, somewhere between the carefully worded expression of regret and anything as OTT as that. A straight forward acceptance of the blame for leaving the kids as exposed as they did would help.
They have done that. Or was once not enough? More than once, actually. Issuing a long winded statement about their culpability would not help, and telling people not to do it would be an insult to all of us. And anyone not listening and seeing will go on doing it anyway. I did the same thing, but I would never do it again, or encourage anyone I know to do it. I don't need to be told.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 02:33:13 PM
No, somewhere between the carefully worded expression of regret and anything as OTT as that. A straight forward acceptance of the blame for leaving the kids as exposed as they did would help.
they are not to blame...they are the victims of a crime
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 02:34:49 PM
No, I don't feel I need to see that. I am not judge and jury, I am expressing an opinion on their behaviour. However, I find their ommitance of responsibility a bit creepy to be honest. They seem quite happy to sit back and point fingers at other people for what they did not do, which leaves me feeling they are hiding something.
Not being totally honest with the police and the public about the circumstances surrounding their child care arrangements certainly causes concern. They brush it off as if it's something everyone in the UK does.
I know you say you can't point fingers in that respect because you did it yourself, as do many others I am led to believe, but that doesn't make it right. AND would I be wrong in thinking if your children perished you would say it wasn't your fault cos everyone leaves their children. Hmm Think about that one.
I don't need to think about it. Obviously I would blame myself, just as The McCanns have done. Isn't that enough? They will have to live with it for the rest of their lives, no matter what happens. But when are any of you going to blame the real culprit who stole their daughter?
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some moron set up a Fund for the abductor when he is caught.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 25, 2015, 02:35:29 PM
you are totally wrong....The McCannns had professional counselling....the first thing they would have been told is you mustn't blame yourselves....this would be very important to their recovery from a very traumatic episode
Did these councellors also tell them to dump responsibility onto others ie the police, the holiday company, Amaral, speaking of which, Kate did forgive her daughters paedo abductor but wanted Amarals head on a platter? does this make sense to you? also, Amarals book caused more distress than her daughters dissapearance- on her claim to extract money from someone who did not abduct her daughter. Nice people...Not.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 25, 2015, 02:37:12 PM
They have atoned for any perceived sins by devoting their lives to finding out what happened to Madeleine. Their success in achieving their aim of having Madeleine's case reopened and the search for answers to her disappearance can be measured by the opprobrium directed at them from some quarters.
What we do not know at present is if Madeleine's abduction was carried out by an opportunist taking advantage of their absence or if she was targeted.
If the latter it would have made not the slightest difference to events.
If the former ... that is something they have to live with and I doubt they need to be reminded of it ... that they have not caved in to despair as a result but have set about helping others and campaigning for Madeleine is to their credit.
What Brietta said. And Davel.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 02:38:59 PM
Did these councellors also tell them to dump responsibility onto others ie the police, the holiday company, Amaral, speaking of which, Kate did forgive her daughters paedo abductor but wanted Amarals head on a platter? does this make sense to you? also, Amarals book caused more distress than her daughters dissapearance- on her claim to extract money from someone who did not abduct her daughter. Nice people...Not.
everything you have said makes sense in the context it was made....you have taken it out of context so obviously it now doesn't make sense....I think the McCannns are a very nice couple...it's a matter of opinion
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 02:39:43 PM
They should have taken reponsibility of facilitating any abduction they claim to have happened. Their 'image' was more important to them. It did backfire fast, which is a shame because if their daughter was abducted then they should share the responsibility or her mortal state , whatever that is. Why do they have a problem with that?
because if Maddie was abducted then it is the abductor who is to blame
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 02:42:27 PM
I don't need to think about it. Obviously I would blame myself, just as The McCanns have done. Isn't that enough? They will have to live with it for the rest of their lives, no matter what happens. But when are any of you going to blame the real culprit who stole their daughter?
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some moron set up a Fund for the abductor when he is caught.
At the beginning we were told about whooshing curtains maddie being snached, children being checked, like they were sitting in a garden. there was absolutely no mention of "oh god what have we done we left our children alone to go eat and drink" and one is missing. NOT A MENTION. and their story crumbled after inspection and "press intrusion" asking awkward questions like "did you really leave your children alone every night? Hmm
and some of the answers they gave was just bewildering.
It has not been established what has hapened to Maddie yet. I very much doubt if anyone would put up a fund for an abductor if one is arrested and charged. But then perhaps Mr Bennett...
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 25, 2015, 02:59:38 PM
Davel, if there was an abduction, the parents are responsibe for facilitating it. As they failed to protect their childen, and indeed know there was a risk or dangers. Fire, waking up and being distressed at he absence of an adult and falling over etc.
In fact Maddie did mention this to Kate..Poor Maddie was ignored, and look at the consequence. How can anyone think after that encounter the parents were not aware of any risk or danger to their children?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 03:01:35 PM
Davel, if there was an abduction, the parents are responsibe for facilitating it. As they failed to protect their childen, and indeed know there was a risk or dangers. Fire, waking up and being distressed at he absence of an adult and falling over etc.
In fact Maddie did mention this to Kate..Poor Maddie was ignored, and look at the consequence. How can anyone think after that encounter the parents were not aware of any risk or danger to their children?
Excellent post. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 25, 2015, 03:33:03 PM
Davel, if there was an abduction, the parents are responsibe for facilitating it. As they failed to protect their childen, and indeed know there was a risk or dangers. Fire, waking up and being distressed at he absence of an adult and falling over etc.
In fact Maddie did mention this to Kate..Poor Maddie was ignored, and look at the consequence. How can anyone think after that encounter the parents were not aware of any risk or danger to their children?
Yet parents happily sign consent forms for coach trips....or sailing trips.....knowing the statistics....
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 25, 2015, 03:39:53 PM
Davel, if there was an abduction, the parents are responsibe for facilitating it. As they failed to protect their childen, and indeed know there was a risk or dangers. Fire, waking up and being distressed at he absence of an adult and falling over etc.
In fact Maddie did mention this to Kate..Poor Maddie was ignored, and look at the consequence. How can anyone think after that encounter the parents were not aware of any risk or danger to their children?
I think it is disgraceful to say the mccanns are responsible if there was an abduction...no they are not....the criminal is responsible for the crime...no one else
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 25, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
I think it is disgraceful to say the mccanns are responsible if there was an abduction...no they are not....the criminal is responsible for the crime...no one else
You are very selective in your responses, that wasn't what was said and you know it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 25, 2015, 05:03:41 PM
if there was an abduction then the abductor is responsible....the mccanns are not....do you think the judge would reduce the sentence because the abductor was not entirely to blame
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 25, 2015, 05:15:00 PM
if there was an abduction then the abductor is responsible....the mccanns are not....do you think the judge would reduce the sentence because the abductor was not entirely to blame
if the mcanns had not left the children 99% chance maddie would be fine and well now. it is parental responsibility to look after toddlers
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
if the mcanns had not left the children 99% chance maddie would be fine and well now dont you grasp that davel? it is parental responsibility to look after toddlers
if the mccanns had not gone to Portugal...maddie would still be with them.....can you grasp that
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 25, 2015, 05:18:22 PM
if there was an abduction then the abductor is responsible....the mccanns are not....do you think the judge would reduce the sentence because the abductor was not entirely to blame
Though insurance companies look at things differently. But that's only stuff.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 05:37:33 PM
The bottom line remains.
The mccanns left their children in danger, and it was an example of their arrogance on display.
They had no commonsense and Madeleine paid the price.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 25, 2015, 05:41:54 PM
Strange how there appears to an expectation on people to look after their property but not themselves or dependants.
I find the constant criticism of the mccanns disgusting....even if it is accepted they are the victims of a most evil crime posters on here want to cause them further hurt...I'm just glad I'm a nice person
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 25, 2015, 05:52:30 PM
I find the constant criticism of the mccanns disgusting....even if it is accepted they are the victims of a most evil crime posters on here want to cause them further hurt...I'm just glad I'm a nice person
They are the cause of their predicament.
Get real.
Your pro-mccann propaganda will only wash with your fellow supporters.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 05:56:17 PM
You could argue (if you were judgmental enough to do so) that parents or caregivers of most abducted children facilitated their abduction then, either by what they did or failed to do.
Perhaps most child abductors should be treated more leniently and with some sympathy because if it wasn't for the stupid parents letting their kids play out, or letting go of their hand whilst out shopping, or leaving them alone to have dinner 50 metres away or failing to lock the back door, then these poor weak abductors would never have had temptation put in their path.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 25, 2015, 05:56:53 PM
I find the constant criticism of the mccanns disgusting....even if it is accepted they are the victims of a most evil crime posters on here want to cause them further hurt...I'm just glad I'm a nice person
Get over yourself. If Madeleine was abducted, it doesn't negate their failure to protect her adequately. Nice?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 25, 2015, 05:57:57 PM
You could argue (if you were judgmental enough to do so) that parents or caregivers of most abducted children facilitated their abduction then, either by what they did or failed to do.
Perhaps most child abductors should be treated more leniently and with some sympathy because if it wasn't for the stupid parents letting their kids play out, or letting go of their hand whilst out shopping, or leaving them alone to have dinner 50 metres away or failing to lock the back door, then these poor weak abductors would never have had temptation put in their path.
Well you might?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 05:58:33 PM
You could argue (if you were judgmental enough to do so) that parents or caregivers of most abducted children facilitated their abduction then, either by what they did or failed to do.
Perhaps most child abductors should be treated more leniently and with some sympathy because if it wasn't for the stupid parents letting their kids play out, or letting go of their hand whilst out shopping, or leaving them alone to have dinner 50 metres away or failing to lock the back door, then these poor weak abductors would never have had temptation put in their path.
A diversionary post.
It has not been ascertained in law how Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 05:59:30 PM
If it is the McCanns fault that Madeleine is missing then why were they not charged under Portuguese criminal law?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 06:20:08 PM
Get over yourself. If Madeleine was abducted, it doesn't negate their failure to protect her adequately. Nice?
if maddie was abducted I put all the blame on the abductor. If he had not been able to abduct maddie he would have found another victim...and if he isn't caught..probably will.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 06:22:27 PM
Get over yourself. If Madeleine was abducted, it doesn't negate their failure to protect her adequately. Nice?
could you remove your words in red...they are immflamatory and abusive
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 06:26:36 PM
We all know as parents that children have been abducted or run over whilst out and about - walking to school, playing outside, running an errand. This being the case, if one of our children is taken or hurt whilst taking part in these activities, are we at fault for allowing them to take part in activities during which they may come to harm?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 25, 2015, 06:41:21 PM
We all know as parents that children have been abducted or run over whilst out and about - walking to school, playing outside, running an errand. This being the case, if one of our children is taken or hurt whilst taking part in these activities, are we at fault for allowing them to take part in activities during which they may come to harm?
Would any of the above be relevant to a three year old ? Would they be walking to school, playing outside by themselves or indeed running an errand ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 25, 2015, 06:43:19 PM
Would any of the above be relevant to a three year old ? Would they be walking to school, playing outside by themselves or indeed running an errand ?
mcann supporters try and make maddie seem older then she was to justify what the mcanns did
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 06:45:34 PM
Life is full of risk and for children to experience life they have to face risks just as we all do. Falling off things, getting momentarily lost, cutting oneself are all things that happen to children regardless of how careful their parents are.
If very young children have accidents and it seems they were left home alone on a regular basis then social services and/or the law step in for the sake of the child. They step in because we all know that leaving very young children home alone is dangerous, so parents doing that are seen as endangering their children.
In the McCann case no action was taken as far as we know. That's the point, we don't know. They may have been visited on a regular basis by social services once they returned to the UK so as to ensure that their twins were being cared for adequately.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 25, 2015, 06:53:07 PM
Life is full of risk and for children to experience life they have to face risks just as we all do. Falling off things, getting momentarily lost, cutting oneself are all things that happen to children regardless of how careful their parents are.
If very young children have accidents and it seems they were left home alone on a regular basis then social services and/or the law step in for the sake of the child. They step in because we all know that leaving very young children home alone is dangerous, so parents doing that are seen as endangering their children.
In the McCann case no action was taken as far as we know. That's the point, we don't know. They may have been visited on a regular basis by social services once they returned to the UK so as to ensure that their twins were being cared for adequately.
awesome psot and didnt kate mcann say she invited social services into their house?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 07:27:21 PM
Would any of the above be relevant to a three year old ? Would they be walking to school, playing outside by themselves or indeed running an errand ?
It was the principle of parental responsibility and culpability that I was exploring. If we know that certain activities have potentially seriously dangerous outcomes (whether it be leaving young children asleep in an apartment whilst out dining nearby or allowing them to walk unchaperoned to school) should we as parents be held criminally responsible if such activities end in disaster?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 25, 2015, 07:33:50 PM
Well the petition for social services to look at them was in the public domain. Much better to volunteer than wait for the visit, don't you think?
In her role as a GP KM probably sat on committees looking at children potentially and actually at risk and whether or not they should be put on the register. She certainly would have been briefed on the subject matter as part of her training. She would therefore have been aware of the full SP.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 25, 2015, 07:47:51 PM
In her role as a GP KM probably sat on committees looking at children potentially and actually at risk and whether or not they should be put on the register. She certainly would have been briefed on the subject matter as part of her training. She would therefore have been aware of the full SP.
Indeed she would have been aware of most of the SP ... why would she have given a thought to abduction in a sleepy, child friendly holiday resort?
No-one has that excuse any longer ... do they?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 08:20:05 PM
Anyone who measures the distance from the table to the balcony door is deceiving you - the child was in the far bedroom - measure to there.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 25, 2015, 09:20:15 PM
It was the principle of parental responsibility and culpability that I was exploring. If we know that certain activities have potentially seriously dangerous outcomes (whether it be leaving young children asleep in an apartment whilst out dining nearby or allowing them to walk unchaperoned to school) should we as parents be held criminally responsible if such activities end in disaster?
I'm not sure letting a child of school age walk to school can be compared to leaving three children under three alone in an unlocked apartment on a main road but I'm sure you'll try.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 09:37:50 PM
It was the principle of parental responsibility and culpability that I was exploring. If we know that certain activities have potentially seriously dangerous outcomes (whether it be leaving young children asleep in an apartment whilst out dining nearby or allowing them to walk unchaperoned to school) should we as parents be held criminally responsible if such activities end in disaster?
We are speaking of just one scenario here, though. Do you have children/grandchildren Alfred? Would you leave them at the ages of three and two asleep in your unlocked house or flat while you popped to the pub next door for a meal and a bottle of wine? If the answer is no then you are a responsible parent/grandparent. Simple.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 09:40:01 PM
I'm not sure letting a child of school age walk to school can be compared to leaving three children under three alone in an unlocked apartment on a main road but I'm sure you'll try.
I think you're missing the point I was makng. It is about being a parent and knowing that certain actions carry risks and yet still facilitating them on way or the other. If anything I would say allowing a child to walk to school alone puts said child in greater danger than leaving him asleep and alone for periods of up to 30 minutes.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 09:47:10 PM
We are speaking of just one scenario here, though. Do you have children/grandchildren Alfred? Would you leave them at the ages of three and two asleep in your unlocked house or flat while you popped to the pub next door for a meal and a bottle of wine? If the answer is no then you are a responsible parent/grandparent. Simple.
have you smoked in the presence of your children...if you have you are not a responsible parent
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 09:51:17 PM
We are speaking of just one scenario here, though. Do you have children/grandchildren Alfred? Would you leave them at the ages of three and two asleep in your unlocked house or flat while you popped to the pub next door for a meal and a bottle of wine? If the answer is no then you are a responsible parent/grandparent. Simple.
Yes Iam a parent and no I haven't done what you describe but I have done other things similar which would probably receive your scathing condemnation. My kids are alive and well nevertheless.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 25, 2015, 09:53:45 PM
I think you're missing the point I was makng. It is about being a parent and knowing that certain actions carry risks and yet still facilitating them on way or the other. If anything I would say allowing a child to walk to school alone puts said child in greater danger than leaving him asleep and alone for periods of up to 30 minutes.
And what I am saying is that whether something carries a risk is heavily dependent on the age of the child.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 10:05:50 PM
And what I am saying is that whether something carries a risk is heavily dependent on the age of the child.
I refer you back to my original point.
We all know as parents that children have been abducted or run over whilst out and about - walking to school, playing outside, running an errand. This being the case, if one of our children is taken or hurt whilst taking part in these activities, are we at fault for allowing them to take part in activities during which they may come to harm?
Is the answer yes, or no?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 25, 2015, 10:06:12 PM
Yes Iam a parent and no I haven't done what you describe but I have done other things similar which would probably receive your scathing condemnation. My kids are alive and well nevertheless.
What I asked was would you do it, not had you done it. After all, very few people would do that. I would love to know what similar things you did do. They must have been irresponsible if you think I would be scathing.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 10:15:59 PM
What I asked was would you do it, not had you done it. After all, very few people would do that. I would love to know what similar things you did do. They must have been irresponsible if you think I would be scathing.
I think you're extremely judgmental and I have no doubt at all that you would find me very irresponsible.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 25, 2015, 10:20:33 PM
We all know as parents that children have been abducted or run over whilst out and about - walking to school, playing outside, running an errand. This being the case, if one of our children is taken or hurt whilst taking part in these activities, are we at fault for allowing them to take part in activities during which they may come to harm?
Is the answer yes, or no?
If we ignore the age of the child and their ability to deal with danger then yes we are at fault.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 25, 2015, 10:22:06 PM
I think you're extremely judgmental and I have no doubt at all that you would find me very irresponsible.
Well, as you won't tell me we'll never know will we? It may interest you to know that I believe in children having freedom to explore the world and take age-appropriate risks. The key words are age and appropriate. Being left alone in an unlocked apartment five nights in a row isn't appropriate at two and three years of age.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 25, 2015, 10:42:28 PM
Well, as you won't tell me we'll never know will we? It may interest you to know that I believe in children having freedom to explore the world and take age-appropriate risks. The key words are age and appropriate. Being left alone in an unlocked apartment five nights in a row isn't appropriate at two and three years of age.
so do you concur with Stephen that whatever happened to Madeleine, the McCanns are entirely to blame? Do you believe they deserve to be prosecuted and if so why, if yours is the prevailing view, did the Portuguese authorities not agree with you?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 25, 2015, 10:45:23 PM
Well, as you won't tell me we'll never know will we? It may interest you to know that I believe in children having freedom to explore the world and take age-appropriate risks. The key words are age and appropriate. Being left alone in an unlocked apartment five nights in a row isn't appropriate at two and three years of age.
so it would have been ok had the apartment been locked....the mcccanns and maddie were simply very unlucky...Mark Warner changed their policy after Maddie and I'm sure far less children have been left to sleep in hotel rooms and apartments since but I bet it still goes on
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 25, 2015, 10:59:33 PM
60 metres as the crow flies, child to parent Edited - please can someone check this to make sure.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 25, 2015, 11:13:47 PM
And was counterproductive IMO Faithlilly. Why didn't they tell us the distance from table to child ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 12:57:52 AM
I found a video on youtube by someone who claims they timed themself walking from the docs tapas table to the garden gate and it took only 20 seconds
But now let's do some basic maths to see if that claim is true... It is 70 metres walk from that table to the garden gate (you can measure it on Gmaps) so that means the poster was walking at 7.8mph. That is an extremely fast walking speed.
Martin Brunt did that exact walk and he counted 80 paces. So the youtube poster was doing about 4 paces per second. Amazing. I bet the MOSW would be extremely interested in investing some of their £384million budget in that and outdoing the japanese.
PR is an incredibly fast-paced business isn't it ;)
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 26, 2015, 01:24:53 AM
I found a video on youtube by someone who claims they timed themself walking from the docs tapas table to the garden gate and it took only 20 seconds
But now let's do some basic maths to see if that claim is true... It is 70 metres walk from that table to the garden gate (you can measure it on Gmaps) so that means the poster was walking at 7.8mph. That is an extremely fast walking speed.
Martin Brunt did that exact walk and he counted 80 paces. So the youtube poster was doing about 4 paces per second. Amazing. I bet the MOSW would be extremely interested in investing some of their £384million budget in that and outdoing the japanese.
PR is an incredibly fast-paced business isn't it ;)
I think the 50-70 metres that we have been told is referring to door to gate.
It takes about a minute to walk from restaurant to 5A http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474428/In-pictures-120-metre-route-check-Madeleine.html
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Admin on October 26, 2015, 01:38:55 AM
I think the 50-70 metres that we have been told is referring to door to gate.
It takes about a minute to walk from restaurant to 5A http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474428/In-pictures-120-metre-route-check-Madeleine.html
The 50 metres referred to previoulsy by Sadie is the 'as the crow flies' distance ie a straight line from the balcony of 5a to the entrance to the tapas restaurant.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 03:02:04 AM
The 50 metres referred to previoulsy by Sadie is the 'as the crow flies' distance ie a straight line from the balcony of 5a to the entrance to the tapas restaurant.
Yes but that's a completely irrelevant distance. Because there was absolutely zero visibility and zero audibility of the child bedroom from the restuarant.
The walking distance between children and parents was 90 metres and that is the only distance that's relevant.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 06:50:04 AM
so it would have been ok had the apartment been locked....the mcccanns and maddie were simply very unlucky...Mark Warner changed their policy after Maddie and I'm sure far less children have been left to sleep in hotel rooms and apartments since but I bet it still goes on
No it wouldn't have been OK. All the group neglected their kids but the McCanns went that bit further. Luck is associated with risk and gambling and clearly they gambled with the children's safety.
If Madeleine had exited the patio door and seriously injured herself falling down the steps it wouldn't have been bad luck it would have been an accident waiting to happen which most parents would have been able to predict. I am very sorry for poor Madeleine and I refuse to accept that those who should have cared for her were 'unlucky'.
No-one who leaves children home alone expects an abduction, but anyone with any sense knows that children can have accidents when left alone. It seems there's a huge group of people out there who see nothing wrong in leaving children home alone. If the kids get hurt or abducted it's just the luck of the draw.
Those who profess to care about Madeleine nevertheless refuse to accept that her parents clearly share the blame for what happened to her. Madeleine didn't gamble with her own safety, she was too young to make such decisions. She was unlucky to have such uncaring parents who failed to take proper care of her. What they did was wrong, whether the distance was 50 feet, 50 metres or whatever.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2015, 07:49:08 AM
No it wouldn't have been OK. All the group neglected their kids but the McCanns went that bit further. Luck is associated with risk and gambling and clearly they gambled with the children's safety.
If Madeleine had exited the patio door and seriously injured herself falling down the steps it wouldn't have been bad luck it would have been an accident waiting to happen which most parents would have been able to predict. I am very sorry for poor Madeleine and I refuse to accept that those who should have cared for her were 'unlucky'.
No-one who leaves children home alone expects an abduction, but anyone with any sense knows that children can have accidents when left alone. It seems there's a huge group of people out there who see nothing wrong in leaving children home alone. If the kids get hurt or abducted it's just the luck of the draw.
Those who profess to care about Madeleine nevertheless refuse to accept that her parents clearly share the blame for what happened to her. Madeleine didn't gamble with her own safety, she was too young to make such decisions. She was unlucky to have such uncaring parents who failed to take proper care of her. What they did was wrong, whether the distance was 50 feet, 50 metres or whatever.
baby listening has been an acceptable part of british parenting for the last 50 years with no record of any serious mishaps. Maddie has changed all that. All I can see is you and others using it as another stick to beat the mccanns...simple
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2015, 08:14:03 AM
A young couple were murdered on a deserted beach in Thailand....are they to blame for putting themselves in such a vulnerable position
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2015, 08:15:30 AM
baby listening has been an acceptable part of british parenting for the last 50 years with no record of any serious mishaps. Maddie has changed all that. All I can see is you and others using it as another stick to beat the mccanns...simple
You don't leave your kids alone in a different building until they are old enough to look after themselves. Simple.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on October 26, 2015, 08:16:29 AM
Yes, this is the problem I had and continue to have. Not once have I heard them say 'please do not do what we did and don't leave your children unattended when you go abroad'!The excuses are something else! I hope they look back and think what the hell was I thinking saying that! But I so doubt it, such is their arrogance.
The distance in the dark, and music playing in the Tapas bar would suggest they could not 'see/hear' their children. Previous nights of the children crying were not only ignored but dismissed by the parents when challenged by their daughter.
The other point: if they could see /hear the children, as they were so close and were checking every half hour as they claimed, how did they miss the abductor?
PR from the beginning, what are they hiding? the shame of neglecting their children in the eyes of many?
If the McCanns had done what you say (in bold above) - what do you think the reaction of people like yourself would have been?
Would it have been
(1) ''Well done the McCanns - for giving that sound advice'
or would it have been:
(2) ''How dare you! I don't need YOUR advice - as unlike YOU - I would never have left my children in the first place!''
I suggest it would be No. 2 - and the McCanns would have been ripped to ribbons for saying it. In fact IMO it would have become one of the biggest sticks ever used to beat them with - and would be dragged out ad nauseam as proof of their 'arrogance'.
Quote from KMs book
.......however unwittingly we'd given this predator an opportunity.. We had not been there for Madeleine. And, as I've said before and will say again, our guilt over that is a heavv cross we will bear for the rest of our lives. Page 202 Unquote
Quote from KM ''Whatever we had or had not done right, we were Madeleine's 'parents and in our own eyes we had failed to keep her safe. We struggled to bear that sense of guilt and we always will. Unquote.
Those two examples alone are clear admissions of the guilt they feel and will feel for the rest of their lives.
So why do some sceptics claim they have never blamed themselves? It is simply not true.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2015, 08:17:05 AM
If the McCanns had done what you say (in bold above) - what do you think the reaction of people like yourself would have been?
Would it have been
(1) ''Well done the McCanns - for giving that sound advice'
or would it have been:
(2) ''How dare you! I don't need YOUR advice - as unlike YOU - I would never have left my children in the first place!''
I suggest it would be No. 2 - and the McCanns would have been ripped to ribbons for saying it. In fact IMO it would have become one of the biggest sticks ever used to beat them with - and would be dragged out ad nauseam as proof of their 'arrogance'.
Quote from KMs book
.......however unwittingly we'd given this predator an opportunity.. We had not been there for Madeleine. And, as I've said before and will say again, our guilt over that is a heavv cross we will bear for the rest of our lives. Page 202 Unquote
Quote from KM ''Whatever we had or had not done right, we were Madeleine's 'parents and in our own eyes we had failed to keep her safe. We struggled to bear that sense of guilt and we always will. Unquote.
Those two examples alone are clear admissions of the guilt they feel and will feel for the rest of their lives.
So why do some sceptics claim they have never blamed themselves? It is simply not true.
Do you not see the qualifications in those quotes?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 26, 2015, 08:22:50 AM
You don't leave your kids alone in a different building until they are old enough to look after themselves. Simple.
I've been on caravan sites where parents go to the Club Room - leaving their children asleep in their caravans.
I've been at parties where neighbours who have been invited have left their children asleep and kept nipping back home to check on them.
When my son was on holiday abroad a couple of years ago - he noticed quite a number of Baby Alarms on the bars and tables - belonging to parents who had left their children asleep in their rooms.
Then there are the thousands of parents who sign up for the Listening Service when they go on holiday.
If all the above were accused of neglecting their children - I very much doubt they would agree with that - in fact they would be outraged IMO. However hopefully there are parents who - because of what happened to Madeleine, have decided not to continue with childcare arrangements which involve leaving children sleeping alone.
In the meantime - until the Listening service is no longer offered anywhere - we have to accept that the reason it is still offered as a 'service' is because there is a demand from parents for it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 09:03:11 AM
baby listening has been an acceptable part of british parenting for the last 50 years with no record of any serious mishaps. Maddie has changed all that. All I can see is you and others using it as another stick to beat the mccanns...simple
I think the important word is 'baby'. None of the McCann children were babies. I don't know anything about age limits for these services but a baby is a child under one year of age. Children below one year will mostly cry if they need anything (unless they've vomited and choked, obviously). Older children may not cry, they may quietly get out of bed and into mischief, so listening at the door tells you nothing.
It's not a case of looking for sticks to beat the McCanns with, it's a case of pointing out that they share the responsibility for what happened to their daughter. Ignoring or excusing that responsibility is just another example of the complete denial supporters of the McCanns exhibit. It doesn't matter how much people protest, leaving mobile children home alone is a very risky business.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 09:11:00 AM
If the McCanns had done what you say (in bold above) - what do you think the reaction of people like yourself would have been?
Would it have been
(1) ''Well done the McCanns - for giving that sound advice'
or would it have been:
(2) ''How dare you! I don't need YOUR advice - as unlike YOU - I would never have left my children in the first place!''
I suggest it would be No. 2 - and the McCanns would have been ripped to ribbons for saying it. In fact IMO it would have become one of the biggest sticks ever used to beat them with - and would be dragged out ad nauseam as proof of their 'arrogance'.
Quote from KMs book
.......however unwittingly we'd given this predator an opportunity.. We had not been there for Madeleine. And, as I've said before and will say again, our guilt over that is a heavv cross we will bear for the rest of our lives. Page 202 Unquote
Quote from KM ''Whatever we had or had not done right, we were Madeleine's 'parents and in our own eyes we had failed to keep her safe. We struggled to bear that sense of guilt and we always will. Unquote.
Those two examples alone are clear admissions of the guilt they feel and will feel for the rest of their lives.
So why do some sceptics claim they have never blamed themselves? It is simply not true.
Kate is right when she says 'unwittingly', their wits seem to have completely deserted them. They failed to keep their children safe in other's eyes. as well as in their own. Perhaps it's time for their supporters to accept that fact also. It's the denial of their culpability by their supporters which prompts people to keep mentioning it. They aren't completely innocent victims, they contributed to the situation.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 26, 2015, 09:19:57 AM
What The McCanns did remains a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on October 26, 2015, 09:22:59 AM
Kate is right when she says 'unwittingly', their wits seem to have completely deserted them. They failed to keep their children safe in other's eyes. as well as in their own. Perhaps it's time for their supporters to accept that fact also. It's the denial of their culpability by their supporters which prompts people to keep mentioning it. They aren't completely innocent victims, they contributed to the situation.
[/b]
So if this isn't an admission of their ''contribution to the situation'' - what is it?
''we'd given this predator an opportunity.. ''
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 26, 2015, 09:40:11 AM
I think the important word is 'baby'. None of the McCann children were babies. I don't know anything about age limits for these services but a baby is a child under one year of age. Children below one year will mostly cry if they need anything (unless they've vomited and choked, obviously). Older children may not cry, they may quietly get out of bed and into mischief, so listening at the door tells you nothing.
It's not a case of looking for sticks to beat the McCanns with, it's a case of pointing out that they share the responsibility for what happened to their daughter. Ignoring or excusing that responsibility is just another example of the complete denial supporters of the McCanns exhibit. It doesn't matter how much people protest, leaving mobile children home alone is a very risky business.
Life is full of all kinds of risks when it comes to babies/children. Every time you put them in a car are you not knowingly putting their lives in danger? What parent isn't aware that children die in car crashes every year?
IMO your expectations of how parents should look after their children are unworkable. If it was possible to behave as I believeyou are suggesting - there would be no children in A&E, no children drowning in baths, no children consuming pills thinking they are sweets and no cot deaths - to name but a few.
To enable that perfect situation parents would need to have their children under their surveillance 24/7 and never ever be guilty of human error. The fact that there is no such thing as a perfect parent seems to have escaped you - particularly when it comes to the McCanns.
The McCanns have said more than once how guilty they feel about what happened to their daughter. How you can dispute that fact and claim it is 'supporters' who are in denial is a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 26, 2015, 09:48:22 AM
What is repeated it seems ad infinitum, was that the mccanns were behaving responsibly.
They weren't.
leaving your children for extended periods by themselves with infrequent checks, and with no security, is pure unmitigated negligence and nothing else.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 09:58:36 AM
So if this isn't an admission of their ''contribution to the situation'' - what is it?
''we'd given this predator an opportunity.. ''
I wasn't actually referring to the McCanns I was referring to those who seek to excuse what they did by saying things like 'everybody does it' and 'it's the abductor's fault not the parent's'.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on October 26, 2015, 10:34:21 AM
I wasn't actually referring to the McCanns I was referring to those who seek to excuse what they did by saying things like 'everybody does it' and 'it's the abductor's fault not the parent's'.
I have never claimed that 'everybody does it' - and have never read a post on here making that claim.
However it is FACT that just as thousands of people agree with you re their childcare - thousands do NOT agree with you - and amongst the latter will be the tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who have done the same themselves in the past - especially whilst on holiday - and those who still do.
The reluctance by sceptics to even admit their existence speaks volumes IMO.
And yes I do blame the abductor(s). What is there in their behaviour that can possibly be excused? Please clarify.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2015, 10:40:20 AM
What is repeated it seems ad infinitum, was that the mccanns were behaving responsibly.
They weren't.
leaving your children for extended periods by themselves with infrequent checks, and with no security, is pure unmitigated negligence and nothing else.
in your opinion...
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on October 26, 2015, 10:53:42 AM
What is repeated it seems ad infinitum, was that the mccanns were behaving responsibly.
They weren't.
leaving your children for extended periods by themselves with infrequent checks, and with no security, is pure unmitigated negligence and nothing else.
Not everyone shares your opinion Stephen - and that would include the thousands of other parents who - when on holiday -- also decided to leave their children fast asleep while they went for a meal etc. knowing they would be regularly checked. As well as those relied on baby alarms to enable them to do the same as the McCann did.
None of those parents would agree with you IMO. How could they?
Then there are the parents of other abducted children - who all support the McCanns, . Kerry Needham, Sara Payne, Coral Jones, the Ossie parents (can't remember their name at the mo) - some of whom have met with the McCanns - and surely - of all people - they are (tragically) the most qualified to form an accurate impression of them. They all agree that Madeleine was taken by a stranger and totally empathise with her parents. Why do you completely ignore these 'experts'?
Also - did you miss this post from one of our members?
Quote from: Tootypopper on November 09, 2013, 04:59:40 PM
Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.
I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did. UNQUOTE
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 26, 2015, 10:57:52 AM
Not everyone shares your opinion Stephen - and that would include the thousands of other parents who - when on holiday -- also decided to leave their children fast asleep while they went for a meal etc. knowing they would be regularly checked. As well as those relied on baby alarms to enable them to do the same as the McCann did.
None of those parents would agree with you IMO. How could they?
Then there are the parents of other abducted children - who all support the McCanns, . Kerry Needham, Sara Payne, Coral Jones, the Ossie parents (can't remember their name at the mo) - some of whom have met with the McCanns - and surely - of all people - they are (tragically) the most qualified to form an accurate impression of them. They all agree that Madeleine was taken by a stranger and totally empathise with her parents. Why do you completely ignore these 'experts'?
Also - did you miss this post from one of our members?
Quote from: Tootypopper on November 09, 2013, 04:59:40 PM
Hi! Mum and Dad would scrimp all year to take us on a little holiday to Butlines and what a time we all had! Mum and Dad used the listening service while they had a drink at the club and they would be heart broken if some body were to say that they abandoned us kids.
I am on the fence in this case of Madeleine but if people are saying that they abandoned their kids then they are also saying that my Mum and Dad abandoned us and I find that a bit offensive. This family did just the same as my Mum and Dad did. UNQUOTE
NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
and how many millions of parents have never done , or would never consider leaving their children, to go out to drink ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 26, 2015, 11:17:38 AM
The McCanns were warned that leaving the children alone was causing them distress, Madeleine told them so. What kind of parent leaves their children alone, even for an hour, knowing that it had previously caused them distress ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 11:23:09 AM
Life is full of all kinds of risks when it comes to babies/children. Every time you put them in a car are you not knowingly putting their lives in danger? What parent isn't aware that children die in car crashes every year?
IMO your expectations of how parents should look after their children are unworkable. If it was possible to behave as I believeyou are suggesting - there would be no children in A&E, no children drowning in baths, no children consuming pills thinking they are sweets and no cot deaths - to name but a few.
To enable that perfect situation parents would need to have their children under their surveillance 24/7 and never ever be guilty of human error. The fact that there is no such thing as a perfect parent seems to have escaped you - particularly when it comes to the McCanns.
The McCanns have said more than once how guilty they feel about what happened to their daughter. How you can dispute that fact and claim it is 'supporters' who are in denial is a mystery to me.
Your post is an example of the denial I referred to. You are equating what the McCanns did with what most parents do every day. They take their children in cars, but they buy car seats and booster seats to make it as safe as they can. Parents do take their eyes off their children and accidents happen. Accidents happen regardless of how careful we are.
Leaving small children home alone for five evenings in a row isn't accidental, it's the result of a decision taken by two supposedly intelligent people who decided it was an acceptable risk. Not many parents would agree with them imo.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 12:43:00 PM
what anyone thinks on this forum is of no importance...many parents have left children in similar circumstances...but of course it is a massive stick with which to beat the parents...quite cruel imo
I would say it's more cruel to see the abduction of a child as 'bad luck'. If Madeleine was abducted and is found one day in a 'hellish lair' I wonder what comfort it will be to be told it was just a case of bad luck that she ended up there? Perhaps she'll accept that leaving her and going to dine x metres away was the most that could be demanded from her responsible parents? I expect she'll just shrug and 'move on'.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2015, 12:53:55 PM
I would say it's more cruel to see the abduction of a child as 'bad luck'. If Madeleine was abducted and is found one day in a 'hellish lair' I wonder what comfort it will be to be told it was just a case of bad luck that she ended up there? Perhaps she'll accept that leaving her and going to dine x metres away was the most that could be demanded from her responsible parents? I expect she'll just shrug and 'move on'.
what happened to maddie was extremely unlucky....but it's a good stick with which to beat the parents
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 26, 2015, 01:04:57 PM
It was 90 metres walk from restaurant table to children's bedroom.
So a minute and a half or so, walk? Do you think, that if there was an abductor/burglar....He would have taken this into account when planning his timing to commit the crime?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 01:29:44 PM
A youtuber claimed he/she went there and personally timed the walk from that table to the garden gate = 20 seconds. That's about 4 paces a second - unbelievable - I've notified MoSW in Whitehall.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 26, 2015, 01:38:33 PM
I believe they were fast walkers and tall(long legs), but don't think they could walk that distance in less than a minute.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 01:45:00 PM
From restuarant table to children was 90 metres walk = about 50 seconds
Thanks.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 26, 2015, 02:00:32 PM
I think you are pretty much spot on, Pegasus. I was going by this...........
This is info for a normal walk and not a hurried one. The latter, I think would be the case from tapas to 5A….
To use this formula for short navigation legs, break it down to 1.2 minutes per 100 metres horizontal distance and 1 minute for every 10 metres of ascent. You can only travel at the speed of the slowest person and so you may need to use a slower formula such as 4 kph which is calculated at 1.5 minutes per 100 metres.
From 5A balcony table to children was 8 metres and with excellent audibility. A Tapas takeaway eaten on the balcony would have been a good idea.
In theory it would have been perfectly possible for Madeleine to have been abducted from her room even if the McCanns had chosen to eat on the balcony instead.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 26, 2015, 02:16:35 PM
In theory it would have been perfectly possible for Madeleine to have been abducted from her room even if the McCanns had chosen to eat on the balcony instead.
Is there anything you won't say to excuse the mccanns behaviour ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 02:17:22 PM
Is there anything you won't say to excuse the mccanns behaviour ?
Was my statement incorrect then?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 02:18:02 PM
@Anna we know from statements that this group of tourists did not rush at all when doing these checks, easy to prove because you get people taking time out during the the 90 metres walk there or back to browse books or pop in the loo or chat with a passer-by, so to use any speed higher than 4mph in calculations would be would be incorrect. The children were 90 metres from the table and that takes 50 seconds each way at a normal pace or more if there is any dallying for bookbrowsing/peeing/yakking. This was a relaxed holiday and not a 90 metres sprint competition.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 26, 2015, 02:24:06 PM
In theory it would have been perfectly possible for Madeleine to have been abducted from her room even if the McCanns had chosen to eat on the balcony instead.
I agree. IIRC, Mrs Fenn had an attempted burglary whilst she sat in her lounge.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 26, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
So you must be able to give an account of how Madeleine could have been removed under the parents noses.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2015, 02:47:09 PM
Esprit FREE Baby-Listening / Child-Patrol Service
For children aged 17 weeks and over, our Baby-Listening / Child-Patrol Service is provided free of charge in all our chalets and Chalet Hotels on our staff’s one day off (generally Thursdays) from 7.30-11pm. Our staff will patrol the corridors and monitor entrances and exits to the buildings to ensure the safety and well-being of children in their bedrooms. In larger properties there will be staff stationed on each corridor if appropriate. Our staff will contact parents if a child is restless and parents are responsible for settling their children.
We also offer this free service every evening from 7.30-11pm in all our Chalet Hotels, and 7.30-10.30pm in certain larger chalets (Pepi Gabl in St Anton, Alpenblume in Obergurgl, Corniche in Tignes and Schatzi andRomeo in La Rosière).
(Daily Baby-listening is not applicable to our smaller chalets, where, unless in Cocoa Club, children are generally asleep adjacent to or just upstairs from where parents are dining.) http://www.britainsfinest.co.uk/hotels/hotels.cfm/searchazref/75001150SAUA
"The Childcare set-up is superb, and we have been completely confident in leaving our children. The baby–listening is a real treat too." Family Steinlechner - Chalet hotel Mariandre, Alpe d’Huez, March 2011
There are many holidays available today which continue to offer child listening services in Britain and abroad. Many parents still take advantage of them.
The ground between the tapas restaurant and the apartments could be covered rapidly because of proximity.
How long do you think it would take a parent to get from A to B in the hotel mentioned above?
In my opinion should a predator be determined enough the children sleeping just upstairs from where their parents are dining are every bit as vulnerable as Madeleine McCann turned out to be.
Whose responsibility is that? The parents confident in their listening arrangements ... or the predator?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 26, 2015, 02:48:11 PM
In theory it would have been perfectly possible for Madeleine to have been abducted from her room even if the McCanns had chosen to eat on the balcony instead.
Possible but not probable. If Madeleine was in fact taken then whoever did it was monitoring the parents movements. As Gerry claims to have seen Madeleine around 9.15pm whilst on his last visit to the apartment then the abductor had to have made his move after that time. Had at least one of them stayed put in the apartment then I believe Madeleine would not have been taken, assuming again of course that that is what happened.
Moral of the story is, do not leave young children unattended for any length of time.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 26, 2015, 03:38:58 PM
Would there have been any less condemnation of the parents had Madeleine been snatched from her bedroom while they were boozing on the balcony with the couple from next door, patio door closed to keep out the noise?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 26, 2015, 03:47:04 PM
Possible but not probable. If Madeleine was in fact taken they whoever did it was monitoring the parents movements. As Gerry claims to have seen Madeleine around 9.15pm whilst on his last visit to the apartment then the abductor had to have made his move after that time. Had at least one of them stayed put in the apartment then I believe Madeleine would not have been taken, assuming again of course that that is what happened.
Moral of the story is, do not leave young children unattended for any length of time.
theres no excuses that mcann supporters use to justofy the lack of the mcanns childcare imo john any sensible human being knows you dont leave toddlers alone so why do the mcann supporters justify it?? would they if the mcanns were on benefits etc and not drs?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2015, 04:37:42 PM
theres no excuses that mcann supporters use to justofy the lack of the mcanns childcare imo john any sensible human being knows you dont leave toddlers alone so why do the mcann supporters justify it?? would they if the mcanns were on benefits etc and not drs?
Yes, I know ... some people could consider it terrible enough to keep commenting about it ... in the meantime, life has moved on for others who seem to have been able to come to terms with the enormity of it and resumed service as usual.
At the time Mark Warner seemed to recognise the inherent dangers by publicising what might have been considered as remedial methods when they shut down the service throughout their resorts.
Madeleine Firm Scraps Baby Listening 14:16, UK, Wednesday 23 April 2008 By Andy Jack
The company which runs the resort where Madeleine McCann went missing has withdrawn baby listening services at all its holiday facilities. http://news.sky.com/story/598311/madeleine-firm-scraps-baby-listening
Then what happens if there is a continued demand for such a service and you are running a business? In this litigious age I think they must have carried out a risk assessment ... and decided the benefits outweigh the risks ... and the listening service provided by Mark Warner continues to be advertised ... and continues to be used by parents who must be well aware of what happened in Praia da Luz.
Family Friendly Summer Holidays
Let's talk family friendly holidays. We know how precious family time is, which is why we take care of everything and everyone. Our summer resorts are hand-picked not only for their gorgeous locations around Europe, but also the family facilities they offer; family suites, parent kitchens, bright airy crèches and with a multitude of activities to get stuck into and fully qualified, British nannies on hand we make sure everyone gets the holiday they want.
There is a free Evening Listening Service available from 7.30pm to 11pm for children aged 4 months to 5 years. http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Child friendly holidays
Childcare is included in the holiday price for those children 2 to 17 years and for little ones from 4 months to 23 months it will be chargeable. We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years and for the older children we run free, fully supervised evening entertainment. This evening childcare takes place from 7.30pm to 11pm. Please check childcare availability for your selected dates and hotel online or with our sales team. http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Then the baby listening started at 8pm.
The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you.
We were called twice, and both times they had obviously heard him as soon as he woke up, as by the time we got to him he hadn't really noticed that we weren't in the room. Paula1 http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/198-anyone-been-to-mark-warner-in-lemnos
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 05:15:03 PM
Would there have been any less condemnation of the parents had Madeleine been snatched from her bedroom while they were boozing on the balcony with the couple from next door, patio door closed to keep out the noise?
If the parents had been sitting on the balcony eating a Tapas takeaway this case would never have happened Misty.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2015, 05:17:17 PM
im seeing deja vu yet again its like groundhog day @)(++(*
Indeed Carly, I guess it's time to shoot through for a day or so 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
In fact none of this group of tourists had ever actually used an MW listening service anywhere. You've been deceived by PR peeps to think they had. They hadn't - read the statements in the files.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 05:26:01 PM
Possible but not probable. If Madeleine was in fact taken then whoever did it was monitoring the parents movements. As Gerry claims to have seen Madeleine around 9.15pm whilst on his last visit to the apartment then the abductor had to have made his move after that time. Had at least one of them stayed put in the apartment then I believe Madeleine would not have been taken, assuming again of course that that is what happened.
Moral of the story is, do not leave young children unattended for any length of time.
I was talking about a theoretical situation as mooted by Pegasus that the McCanns should have dined on their verandah. Say they had done this every night for 6 nights, dining at the same time each evening then a potential abductor, knowing this, could have in theory gained access to the kids' bedroom from the front, whilst the McCanns ate out the back, and taken a child. We know from other cases of intruders entering and taking children when the parents were actually present but not aware, so eminently possible in such a scenario IMO.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 05:28:15 PM
Would there have been any less condemnation of the parents had Madeleine been snatched from her bedroom while they were boozing on the balcony with the couple from next door, patio door closed to keep out the noise?
No there would not, instead the title of this thread would have been Was 9 metres from the children's bedroom 9 metres too far?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 05:29:30 PM
"Now, look, Columbo, I've had you up to here. And frankly, I'm not interested in locks and keys and open doors and air conditioners, and how he got in here. What the hell difference does it make how he got in here? The fact is that some crackpot war veteran came in here, shot and killed Allen Mallory, and then frames me out of some insane belief that Allen and I stole his lousy little story. Now, that's all I know. And that's all I'm interested in."
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 05:45:07 PM
"Now, look, Columbo, I've had you up to here. And frankly, I'm not interested in locks and keys and open doors and air conditioners, and how he got in here. What the hell difference does it make how he got in here? The fact is that some crackpot war veteran came in here, shot and killed Allen Mallory, and then frames me out of some insane belief that Allen and I stole his lousy little story. Now, that's all I know. And that's all I'm interested in."
Err...yes very interesting I'm sure... &%+((£
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 05:53:42 PM
I was talking about a theoretical situation as mooted by Pegasus that the McCanns should have dined on their verandah. Say they had done this every night for 6 nights, dining at the same time each evening then a potential abductor, knowing this, could have in theory gained access to the kids' bedroom from the front, whilst the McCanns ate out the back, and taken a child. We know from other cases of intruders entering and taking children when the parents were actually present but not aware, so eminently possible in such a scenario IMO.
If that had happened then they wouldn't have been facilitating it. Leaving the property = facilitation.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 06:11:00 PM
Infinitely safer Alfred. If they had dined on Tapas takeaway on their balcony, not a soul would have criticised it.
There would be no criticism or any sort without there being a missing child, so if the child had gone missing whilst the McCanns sat on their verandah eating there would have been just as much suspicion heaped on them, if not more, as no one else would have been around to witness their movements.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 06:27:06 PM
There would be no criticism or any sort without there being a missing child, so if the child had gone missing whilst the McCanns sat on their verandah eating there would have been just as much suspicion heaped on them, if not more, as no one else would have been around to witness their movements.
It would have been even more suspicious had they dined on their verandah alone on the very night Madeleine was taken, after leaving the children all week. I can't begin to imagine the level of scepticism & hostility which would have ensued.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 06:35:59 PM
It would have been even more suspicious had they dined on their verandah alone on the very night Madeleine was taken, after leaving the children all week. I can't begin to imagine the level of scepticism & hostility which would have ensued.
No one would believe them for a start. "How does a child get abducted from under its parents noses"? would be the repeated refrain. Despite the fact that is has happened before, the McCanns would still be figures of hate for their "neglect to notice" the child being taken ("they must have been really pissed") or for having done away with the child themselves. We know how it works by now!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 07:08:57 PM
Fact is they could easily have dined in the back garden - it has a nice balcony and a table and chairs - Tapas do takeaways - and yes you still get the gratis bottles of wine. It would have been perfectly safe.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 26, 2015, 07:11:26 PM
Fact is they could easily have dined in the back garden - it has a nice balcony and a table and chairs - Tapas do takeaways - and yes you still get the gratis bottles of wine. It would have been perfectly safe.
They could have eaten a sandwich in the dark sat on the floor in their kids' bedroom, even safer.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 26, 2015, 07:18:58 PM
Fact is they could easily have dined in the back garden - it has a nice balcony and a table and chairs - Tapas do takeaways - and yes you still get the gratis bottles of wine. It would have been perfectly safe.
Given the fact that none of the MW nannies seem to have been gainfully employed babysitting anywhere other than the night crèche (3 there, so no more than 15 children max), coupled with the lack of witnesses walking around that evening, how many of the families do you think dined on their balcony or in the garden that night? I did have a chuckle last night, during Downton, at the scene where the 3 young children were tucked up asleep in the nursery together & the nanny was sitting in the room watching over them. How times have changed - imagine SuperNanny's horror!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 07:36:57 PM
Given the fact that none of the MW nannies seem to have been gainfully employed babysitting anywhere other than the night crèche (3 there, so no more than 15 children max), coupled with the lack of witnesses walking around that evening, how many of the families do you think dined on their balcony or in the garden that night? I did have a chuckle last night, during Downton, at the scene where the 3 young children were tucked up asleep in the nursery together & the nanny was sitting in the room watching over them. How times have changed - imagine SuperNanny's horror!
The four adults who dined on the balcony of apartment 606 that night. They all had kids, who were safe inside that apartment within clear hearing distance of the adult diners on the balcony - perfectly safe. And the adults didn't have to cook - they simply got takeaway from Tapas. Why didn't the T9 get Tapas takeaway?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 26, 2015, 07:48:59 PM
Possible but not probable. If Madeleine was in fact taken then whoever did it was monitoring the parents movements. As Gerry claims to have seen Madeleine around 9.15pm whilst on his last visit to the apartment then the abductor had to have made his move after that time. Had at least one of them stayed put in the apartment then I believe Madeleine would not have been taken, assuming again of course that that is what happened.
Moral of the story is, do not leave young children unattended for any length of time.
@John. Is distance or predictability the more important factor? Assuming an abduction.
The distance gives the abductor a 30 second plus head start, which seems a fair safety cushion if this is what happened.
The predictability (interrupted by a child's sickness) gives an alleged abductor a feeling of relative safety.
If they had mixed and matched, an evening in Tapas, an evening in the Millennium, an evening on the balcony, an evening taking the kids outside of the Ocean Club for a meal, would this alleged abduction have happened?
No, wrong question. Would an abductor have tried this if the McCanns had a non-predictable routine?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2015, 08:11:45 PM
The four adults who dined on the balcony of apartment 606 that night. They all had kids, who were safe inside that apartment within clear hearing distance of the adult diners on the balcony - perfectly safe. And the adults didn't have to cook - they simply got takeaway from Tapas. Why didn't the T9 get Tapas takeaway?
It hadn't been Raj Balu's original intention to dine on a veranda ... that only happened because the Berry family failed to get a table.
From 15:30 onwards, the bar was full, as normally happened, with the majority of people there. Neil and E*** were having a drink with my wife and I. We had a table reserved in the restaurant for that night, but they were not able to arrange a table and for this reason we decided to leave our table and ate together in their apartment using takeaway service. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 08:34:12 PM
Your use of the word "facilitation" makes it sound as if you think the McCanns wanted Madeleine to come to harm.
Literally true, no intention assumed.
make easy/easier, ease, make possible, make smooth/smoother, smooth, smooth the path of, smooth the way for, clear the way for, open the door for; enable,
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 08:36:10 PM
It hadn't been Raj Balu's original intention to dine on a veranda ... that only happened because the Berry family failed to get a table.
From 15:30 onwards, the bar was full, as normally happened, with the majority of people there. Neil and E*** were having a drink with my wife and I. We had a table reserved in the restaurant for that night, but they were not able to arrange a table and for this reason we decided to leave our table and ate together in their apartment using takeaway service. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RAJ_BALU.htm
When the B family failed to get a table we should emphasise that this was not the B family's fault. It was due to the failure of four other families to desist from selfishly bypassing the normal daily booking system and hogging the restaurant. Ask K and J - they were the more considerate ones who were not happy with doing it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 26, 2015, 08:42:29 PM
@John. Is distance or predictability the more important factor? Assuming an abduction.
The distance gives the abductor a 30 second plus head start, which seems a fair safety cushion if this is what happened.
The predictability (interrupted by a child's sickness) gives an alleged abductor a feeling of relative safety.
If they had mixed and matched, an evening in Tapas, an evening in the Millennium, an evening on the balcony, an evening taking the kids outside of the Ocean Club for a meal, would this alleged abduction have happened?
No, wrong question. Would an abductor have tried this if the McCanns had a non-predictable routine?
I think they would have had to watch the whole group and the group weren't that predictable. Sunday evening Matt stayed in, Tuesday evening Russell stayed in, Wednesday evening Rachael stayed in. Unless they were watching at 8.30pm, Kate could have been in that evening. Gerry could have been just checking on her.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2015, 08:44:10 PM
Baby listening has been used for at least 50 years....can anyone come up with a serious incident associated with it...apart from Maddie...just how dangerous is it
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 26, 2015, 08:49:39 PM
I think they would have had to watch the whole group and the group weren't that predictable. Sunday evening Matt stayed in, Tuesday evening Russell stayed in, Wednesday evening Rachael stayed in. Unless they were watching at 8.30pm, Kate could have been in that evening. Gerry could have been just checking on her.
Kate & Gerry were the only ones who used the rear of the property for access & exit of an evening. That much was predictable.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 26, 2015, 09:23:55 PM
I think they would have had to watch the whole group and the group weren't that predictable. Sunday evening Matt stayed in, Tuesday evening Russell stayed in, Wednesday evening Rachael stayed in. Unless they were watching at 8.30pm, Kate could have been in that evening. Gerry could have been just checking on her.
There were a number of places from which it was easy to monitor the whole group.
Distance or knowledge? Which is more important?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 09:34:43 PM
Baby listening has been used for at least 50 years....can anyone come up with a serious incident associated with it...apart from Maddie...just how dangerous is it
Ask the child Sandra Davel.
Anyway this bunch of tourists had never used a listening service.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 26, 2015, 09:45:20 PM
When the B family failed to get a table we should emphasise that this was not the B family's fault. It was due to the failure of four other families to desist from selfishly bypassing the normal daily booking system and hogging the restaurant. Ask K and J - they were the more considerate ones who were not happy with doing it.
It does not alter the fact that it had been their original intention to dine in the tapas restaurant, not on the Berry balcony.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 10:12:22 PM
Yes they had hoped to put their kids in evening creche and dine at Tapas.
I had assumed they had intended bringing the children with them for the meal, hence the squeeze. Strange the tapas restaurant were unable to place another two chairs at the Balu table to accommodate them if the children were to be in the evening crèche.
Perhaps the decision not to place the children in the crèche and dine instead at home ... had something to do with the requirements necessary when placing the children there for a couple of hours.
Whatever the Balu and Berry child care arrangements as opposed to the listening service the Drs McCann and their friends used ~ it doesn't change the fact that whatever the distance involved from the restaurant to the apartments ~ no-one had the right to invade the McCann apartment, or anyone else's for that matter, and take a child.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 10:35:30 PM
Anyway it is simply a fact that it was 90 metres walk from parents to children, there was zero visibility of the children, and zero audibility of the children.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2015, 10:45:00 PM
I had assumed they had intended bringing the children with them for the meal, hence the squeeze. Strange the tapas restaurant were unable to place another two chairs at the Balu table to accommodate them if the children were to be in the evening crèche.
Perhaps the decision not to place the children in the crèche and dine instead at home ... had something to do with the requirements necessary when placing the children there for a couple of hours.
Whatever the Balu and Berry child care arrangements as opposed to the listening service the Drs McCann and their friends used ~ it doesn't change the fact that whatever the distance involved from the restaurant to the apartments ~ no-one had the right to invade the McCann apartment, or anyone else's for that matter, and take a child.
Which listening service would that be then?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 26, 2015, 10:54:30 PM
Anyway it is simply a fact that it was 90 metres walk from parents to children, there was zero visibility of the children, and zero audibility of the children.
Correct!, except that as the crow flies it is only 50m and if you're wearing your Joe 90 glasses and have Steve Austin ears fitted no problems in getting in the know; it's like being in the next room. And if you can run like Monkey in The Water Margin even better.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 11:07:37 PM
I had assumed they had intended bringing the children with them for the meal, hence the squeeze. Strange the tapas restaurant were unable to place another two chairs at the Balu table to accommodate them if the children were to be in the evening crèche.
Perhaps the decision not to place the children in the crèche and dine instead at home ... had something to do with the requirements necessary when placing the children there for a couple of hours.
Whatever the Balu and Berry child care arrangements as opposed to the listening service the Drs McCann and their friends used ~ it doesn't change the fact that whatever the distance involved from the restaurant to the apartments ~ no-one had the right to invade the McCann apartment, or anyone else's for that matter, and take a child.
These people went to the receptionist in the morning to book a table for the evening and were told "sorry full up for tonight". On morning 3rd, Mr B and Ms C were not the only couple to be told "sorry fully booked" - it also happened to a Mr and Mrs M - and probably to other couples too. If the LDLTHS hadn't been there, there would have been room for all those honest diners.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 26, 2015, 11:23:03 PM
Correct!, except that as the crow flies it is only 50m and if you're wearing your Joe 90 glasses and have Steve Austin ears fitted no problems in getting in the know; it's like being in the next room. And if you can run like Monkey in The Water Margin even better.
Yes 90 metres walk, Alice you and me are immune to to the image-management techniques. The PR peeps seem to have retrofitted the diners not only with J90 glasses and SA ears but also with Bond jetpacks. Now here's an odd thing - if you draw around the table a circle of radius exactly (using the image-management figure) 50 metres, it doesn't pass anywhere near the child bedroom, actually it passes through the climbing plant in the back garden, and last time I checked the PJ photos there were no child beds or cots in that climbing plant.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 26, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
These people went to the receptionist in the morning to book a table for the evening and were told "sorry full up for tonight". On morning 3rd, Mr B and Ms C were not the only couple to be told "sorry fully booked" - it also happened to a Mr and Mrs M - and probably to other couples too. If the LDLTHS hadn't been there, there would have been room for all those honest diners.
Yet somehow [Name removed] & AW, who weren't on the booking list, ate there that night.
On the evening of May 3, the sisters ate in the same tapas restaurant as the McCann party.
Neither of them remembers the doctors being rowdy or drinking heavily that night, as other witnesses have suggested.
Mrs Jensen, a bar manager, said: "They were not noisy or dominating the restaurant. They were just a party of friends enjoying a meal." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, MS if he was indeed "Rasta Man" & his wife don't appear to have dined there that night, despite the booking.
Yes 90 metres walk, Alice you and me are immune to to the image-management techniques. The PR peeps seem to have retrofitted the diners not only with J90 glasses and SA ears but also with Bond jetpacks. Now here's an odd thing - if you draw around the table a circle of radius exactly (using the image-management figure) 50 metres, it doesn't pass anywhere near the child bedroom, actually it passes through the climbing plant in the back garden, and last time I checked the PJ photos there were no child beds or cots in that climbing plant.
Kate said in a tv interview it was "49.4m if you want to be exact with google" obviously mitigating
She also reckoned it took her only 37 secs or so to get there ...which doesnt really matter unless in an emergency situation???
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 12:46:21 AM
Anyway it is simply a fact that it was 90 metres walk from parents to children, there was zero visibility of the children, and zero audibility of the children.
Which is always wrong, its negkigent, no one would do it at home, even less so on holiday..but the apologists here say its fine..they were culpable if taking a risk with their childrens safety as were the rest of them
Kate said in a tv interview it was "49.4m if you want to be exact with google" obviously mitigating
She also reckoned it took her only 37 secs or so to get there ...which doesnt really matter unless in an emergency situation???
We know the twins were left in an unlocked apartment when she went to check so maybe she was in a hurry because according to Matt she left 10 minutes early 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2015, 12:52:21 AM
Yes that's easy possibly another couple said hey have our booking we've decided to get takeaway instead.
You really do appear to have a bee in your bonnet to object so to the fact that these people had the foresight to pre book a venue which was so close to their place of residence.
It was not high season and if the booking was accepted I presume the tapas management did not have the problem you appear to be having with it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 01:31:04 AM
You really do appear to have a bee in your bonnet to object so to the fact that these people had the foresight to pre book a venue which was so close to their place of residence.
It was not high season and if the booking was accepted I presume the tapas management did not have the problem you appear to be having with it.
The earliest ahead any other guests were allowed to book an evening table was 9am same day. Someone in the T9 persuaded the company to make a special exception just for them, no other guests were allowed to do it. Foresight is good Brietta, but not when it involves bending the system at the expense of the other guests. And it's not just me who thinks it was wrong. I have quotes from two of the more considerate members of the group stating they were less than happy with it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 01:31:33 AM
We know the twins were left in an unlocked apartment when she went to check so maybe she was in a hurry because according to Matt she left 10 minutes early 8(0(*
What do you mean?
My question in all that palava is why she did leave her twins alone if she was so sure of an abductor..she says she was so panicked but "left them" without knowing the abductors werent still around
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 01:35:21 AM
My question in all that palava is shy she did keave her twins akaone if she was so sure of an abductor..she says she was so panicked but "left them" without knowing the abductors werent still around
I think her decision to get help immediately was correct Mercury
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 01:42:44 AM
I think her decision to get help immediately was correct Mercury
Yes, if you think your child has been abducted, you risk the other two, give us a break peggy, youd cry out till someone came
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 02:19:12 AM
But the Tapas restaurant had music and chatting and it's unlikely the 7 diners would have heard her. She ran partway to the restaurant and back to raise the alarm which took less than a minute. It was the correct thing for this honest witness to do IMO, because it ensured the search started immediately.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 02:31:56 AM
It's a shame they didn't have a self-catering apartment near a supermarket, then they could have cooked and dined at the apartment.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 02:36:40 AM
Go in front door and first left - seems to be a room with various equipment in it. And go down Rua Martins - the first shop you come to - it seems to sell stuff for use on that equipment.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 27, 2015, 02:40:36 AM
Yes but they could easily have eaten at the apartment - they could have had takeaway from Tapas every night - or they could have bought food at the supermarket and cooked it in the kitchen just like they did for breakfast.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 27, 2015, 03:25:00 AM
Yes but they could easily have eaten at the apartment - they could have had takeaway from Tapas every night - or they could have bought food at the supermarket and cooked it in the kitchen just like they did for breakfast.
They weren't aware the Tapas did a takeaway service until nearly the end of the holiday. They were already paying to eat breakfast & lunch in the apartment, so to then buy food from what was probably a poorly-stocked & expensive supermarket to cook would have made the trip both uneconomical & hard work, aside from the social issue. It's easy to say what they should have done in hindsight yet not so easy to understand when no-one else's child met an unknown fate.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 04:21:26 AM
They weren't aware the Tapas did a takeaway service until nearly the end of the holiday. They were already paying to eat breakfast & lunch in the apartment, so to then buy food from what was probably a poorly-stocked & expensive supermarket to cook would have made the trip both uneconomical & hard work, aside from the social issue. It's easy to say what they should have done in hindsight yet not so easy to understand when no-one else's child met an unknown fate.
Cite pls for them not being aware of a takeaway service, ta
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too fa
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 04:36:02 AM
I had assumed they had intended bringing the children with them for the meal, hence the squeeze. Strange the tapas restaurant were unable to place another two chairs at the Balu table to accommodate them if the children were to be in the evening crèche.
Perhaps the decision not to place the children in the crèche and dine instead at home ... had something to do with the requirements necessary when placing the children there for a couple of hours.
Whatever the Balu and Berry child care arrangements as opposed to the listening service the Drs McCann and their friends used ~ it doesn't change the fact that whatever the distance involved from the restaurant to the apartments ~ no-one had the right to invade the McCann apartment, or anyone else's for that matter, and take a child.
This will never mitigate the mccanns negligent so called non existent so called "child care arrangements".
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 04:57:34 AM
But the Tapas restaurant had music and chatting and it's unlikely the 7 diners would have heard her. She ran partway to the restaurant and back to raise the alarm which took less than a minute. It was the correct thing for this honest witness to do IMO, because it ensured the search started immediately.
Tanner was nearer so were all other residents..you wouldnt leave your other kids if you KNEW an abductor was around, would you? Dont be silly
You mght leave them if you were NOT worried about any abductor though
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 07:02:14 AM
There were a number of places in which it was easy to monitor the whole group.
Matthew took a very odd route on his 9:30 check after finding out a child was sick. He went between block 4 and block 5 and along the rear passage. This is the long way round and it is nearly completely in the dark.
It also affords a great view of what is now the T7 in the Tapas restaurant, whilst the T7 could not see MO.
He has permission to enter 5A, so that is not an issue.
It is only what happened after that which might be an issue. I need to stress I have zero evidence that this is what happened.
However, Matthew was in possession of the knowledge that none of the other T9 (sick child dad included) was likely to intervene.
Distance or knowledge? Which is more important?
Do you have a cite for Matthew's route please Shining? I've looked at his statements and I can't find it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2015, 08:02:58 AM
the truth is that the evidence supports that in the past a baby listening service has proved to be very safe. That's what the mccanns based their decision on. I'm sure they would not do the same thing again although these services are still being advertised.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 27, 2015, 08:37:37 AM
the truth is that the evidence supports that in the past a baby listening service has proved to be very safe. That's what the mccanns based their decision on. I'm sure they would not do the same thing again although these services are still being advertised.
A reminder that in he past, children of 4 worked in factories. So that must mean it would understandable if someone did it now.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2015, 09:27:48 AM
A reminder that in he past, children of 4 worked in factories. So that must mean it would understandable if someone did it now.
What a fatuous and imbecilic (non) "comparison".
Exploitation of child-labour has sod-all to do with regular checks run on children sound asleep in their beds and checked on regularly while the parents dined a handful of yards away.
I recently cited an example in England where a lone mother left her children, barely older than Madeleine, in bed alone to work a night-shift (and obviously not checking on them), where they were both raped by an intruder.
The intruder (thank God) was caught but the mother doesn't appear to have been censured.
She was contemplating how she could best rebuild her children's shattered lives after that horrendous ordeal ...
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 27, 2015, 12:44:49 PM
My question in all that palava is why she did leave her twins alone if she was so sure of an abductor..she says she was so panicked but "left them" without knowing the abductors werent still around
Abductor - now that's funny just like the real identity of Smithman. The timeline is crucial and all should be revealed because I know SY don't live in fantasy luzland. You can't have two exact times from watches that are so far out from each other. One is a liar and I know who and why!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 27, 2015, 12:55:11 PM
Tanner was nearer so were all other residents..you wouldnt leave your other kids if you KNEW an abductor was around, would you? Dont be silly
You mght leave them if you were NOT worried about any abductor though
It was the correct decision by this honest witness to alert the 7 people at tapas. JT was slightly closer but known to be child-sitting an ill child and therefore obviously unavailable to run to tapas.
It's surprising you criticise this brief absence (for a very urgent reason) of less than a minute to run to tapas and back, when for example there had been about 45 minutes absence (for no reason at all) the previous night.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 27, 2015, 12:58:10 PM
Exploitation of child-labour has sod-all to do with regular checks run on children sound asleep in their beds and checked on regularly while the parents dined a handful of yards away.
Cut the insults.
Comparing 2 examples of what was once consider acceptable treatment of children is not fatuous or imbecilic and just points to an inability to address the comparison with reason.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2015, 01:00:38 PM
The earliest ahead any other guests were allowed to book an evening table was 9am same day. Someone in the T9 persuaded the company to make a special exception just for them, no other guests were allowed to do it. Foresight is good Brietta, but not when it involves bending the system at the expense of the other guests. And it's not just me who thinks it was wrong. I have quotes from two of the more considerate members of the group stating they were less than happy with it.
You will perhaps have a cite that other guests had asked for the same consideration and their request knocked back?
That the group were aware of the special consideration and privilege they enjoyed is hardly surprising.
IIRC the person making the booking was pleasantly surprised that she was able to do so; the tapas personnel would probably have been aware of circumstances which made it appropriate ... however the only complaints I am aware of emanate not from fellow guests but from those who were not even present in Luz at the time in question to be in a position to be 'put out' by the arrangement.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2015, 01:08:17 PM
No, the shift happened long before the McCann case. Butlins stopped in the nineties.
Mark Warner continue to offer the service in their 2015/2016 holiday brochure.
We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 27, 2015, 01:10:19 PM
If each of the Tapas families has booked a table each morning what would have been the difference? The Tapas Bar would have still been short of tables.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on October 27, 2015, 01:28:53 PM
It might have given others a better chance at booking a table.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 27, 2015, 01:56:00 PM
You will perhaps have a cite that other guests had asked for the same consideration and their request knocked back?
That the group were aware of the special consideration and privilege they enjoyed is hardly surprising.
IIRC the person making the booking was pleasantly surprised that she was able to do so; the tapas personnel would probably have been aware of circumstances which made it appropriate ... however the only complaints I am aware of emanate not from fellow guests but from those who were not even present in Luz at the time in question to be in a position to be 'put out' by the arrangement.
Not exactly a complaint, but not exactly pleased either;
I believe that there was some sort of agreement with the tapas Bar as they appeared to have a reservation every night and it was impossible for other guests to book at spot there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Jeremy and Bridget had visited the Tapas bar on several occasions during which they noticed the group had reserved a table for every night of their holiday. This appeared to be contrary to the set down procedure of not booking a table any further than three days ahead. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 27, 2015, 02:48:53 PM
Not exactly a complaint, but not exactly pleased either;
I believe that there was some sort of agreement with the tapas Bar as they appeared to have a reservation every night and it was impossible for other guests to book at spot there. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Jeremy and Bridget had visited the Tapas bar on several occasions during which they noticed the group had reserved a table for every night of their holiday. This appeared to be contrary to the set down procedure of not booking a table any further than three days ahead. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
I bet they were putting towels on all the sun beds too...perhaps you would like to start a thread on it
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 04:20:59 PM
Mark Warner continue to offer the service in their 2015/2016 holiday brochure.
We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Could that actually mean the night creche? Alex Woolfall in 2008 about the 'room listening service';
"In fact we stopped offering the service at our sites altogether last year. It's important to say to our guests we can offer safety. But you can't offer parents a guarantee of safety with such a service and we didn't want them to have a false sense of security."
Mr Woolfall added: "What we do offer is drop-in creches, open in the evenings, where guests can leave their children and go out for dinner." http://news.sky.com/story/598311/madeleine-firm-scraps-baby-listening
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 04:24:28 PM
Could that actually mean the night creche? Alex Woolfall in 2008 about the 'room listening service';
"In fact we stopped offering the service at our sites altogether last year. It's important to say to our guests we can offer safety. But you can't offer parents a guarantee of safety with such a service and we didn't want them to have a false sense of security."
Mr Woolfall added: "What we do offer is drop-in creches, open in the evenings, where guests can leave their children and go out for dinner." http://news.sky.com/story/598311/madeleine-firm-scraps-baby-listening
Mark Warner were still advertising baby listening at some sites six months after Maddie was abducted...it has now been stopped altogether...as regards slarti's point I don't think they have ever employed 4 yr olds
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2015, 04:28:08 PM
Mark Warner were still advertising baby listening at some sites six months after Maddie was abducted...it has now been stopped altogether...as regards slarti's point I don't think they have ever employed 4 yr olds
Abduction, no matter how many times you or others type it, hasn't been proved.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 07:20:52 PM
Mark Warner were still advertising baby listening at some sites six months after Maddie was abducted...it has now been stopped altogether...as regards slarti's point I don't think they have ever employed 4 yr olds
But Davel none of this group had ever used a MW listening service anywhere - that was an image-management invention.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2015, 07:27:07 PM
Some of them had observed, but never used, a listening service at a resort in another country but IMO it wasn't even an MW resort.
does it make any difference...listening services have been widely promoted and used and up until Maddie had an excellent safety record
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 08:29:10 PM
An honest answer from a PR man
Interviewer: .... a child can choke, a child can vomit, you know, a child can be face down in a pillow in a half an hour, so even the, the regular checks simply to many people... CM: Well... Interviewer: I mean, you yourself have children. Would you do it? CM: I, I... Interviewer: Would you? CM: I have three, and of course, I would assess the circumstances at the time before making that decision with my wife. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html
In other words, No.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 27, 2015, 08:49:44 PM
Interviewer: .... a child can choke, a child can vomit, you know, a child can be face down in a pillow in a half an hour, so even the, the regular checks simply to many people... CM: Well... Interviewer: I mean, you yourself have children. Would you do it? CM: I, I... Interviewer: Would you? CM: I have three, and of course, I would assess the circumstances at the time before making that decision with my wife. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html
In other words, No.
I'm talking absolute facts...non of these things have ever happened to a listening service child
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 09:03:59 PM
fact is...listening services have an unblemished record prior to PDL
But davel you are referring to professional listening services like there were at some other MW resorts. That means checks every 15 minutes and no drinking on the job.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 27, 2015, 09:56:51 PM
But davel you are referring to professional listening services like there were at some other MW resorts. That means checks every 15 minutes and no drinking on the job.
Nicely put Pegasus.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 27, 2015, 10:09:06 PM
But davel you are referring to professional listening services like there were at some other MW resorts. That means checks every 15 minutes and no drinking on the job.
Also within an area to with exits and entrances which can be controlled and with the child/children behind a locked door.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 27, 2015, 10:52:40 PM
Is it the leaving the children alone or the frequency of the checking which is the biggest problem to people here?
Neither is a problem to me as it does not affect me. A decision was taken in the face of uncertainty, what dear old Donald Rumsfeld called the unknown unknowns. The decision had an undesirable outcome. It wasn't the first such it will undoubtedly not be the last. Try not to take risky decisions in the face of uncertainty if there are things of value to lose, the loss of which is unacceptable to you.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 10:59:10 PM
Is it the leaving the children alone or the frequency of the checking which is the biggest problem to people here?
Dear misty
No normal parents leave their toddlers all alone, do you? It might surprise you to know Im sick to the back teeth with this issue, been discussed for years and years, they did it, as did their mates, but for anyone to even try to attempt to make it "a normal happening" practised by many is pathetic because its simply untrue
As for the "checking" gerry mccann says he checked every half hour but just listened for any noise or crying but never actually looked in....his kids could have been all dead....and he wouldnt have known...what was the POINT of his checks then? He keeps sayng we never perceived any danger, it seemed safe, so what danger was he referring to?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 27, 2015, 11:11:59 PM
Mark Warner continue to offer the service in their 2015/2016 holiday brochure.
We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
...as in...
Quote
Ages 4 months to 5 years Our supervised Evening Listening Service from 7.30pm until 11pm features a quiet sleeping area for little ones and a comfy beanbag area for those who want to watch a DVD.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 27, 2015, 11:14:30 PM
No normal parents leave their toddlers all alone, do you? It might surprise you to know Im sick to the back teeth with this issue, been discussed for years and years, they did it, as did their mates, but for anyone to even try to attempt to make it "a normal happening" practised by many is pathetic because its simply untrue
As for the "checking" gerry mccann says he checked every half hour but just listened for any noise or crying but never actually looked in....his kids could have been all dead....and he wouldnt have known...what was the POINT of his checks then? He keeps sayng we never perceived any danger, it seemed safe, so what danger was he referring to?
It depends on your definition of "alone", Mercury. I wonder how often most of the parents on here looked in on their little ones every half an hour after they had put them upstairs to bed for the night. I wonder how many looked in on them at all if there was no noise coming from the bedroom. I wonder how many left children to cry themselves to sleep, as per Supernanny and good old-fashioned parenting, without ever checking they hadn't suffocated/choked on their vomit/passed out? Is the act of leaving a child unattended & being 50m away really any more serious than the failure to regularly check on a child's wellbeing?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too f
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 11:15:11 PM
It depends on your definition of "alone", Mercury. I wonder how often most of the parents on here looked in on their little ones every half an hour after they had put them upstairs to bed for the night. I wonder how many looked in on them at all if there was no noise coming from the bedroom. I wonder how many left children to cry themselves to sleep, as per Supernanny and good old-fashioned parenting, without ever checking they hadn't suffocated/choked on their vomit/passed out? Is the act of leaving a child unattended & being 50m away really any more serious than the failure to regularly check on a child's wellbeing?
Do you even have to ask..there is a massive difference between being in your own house....honestly misty, get a grip on this
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 11:25:05 PM
Is it the leaving the children alone or the frequency of the checking which is the biggest problem to people here?
As usual, i can only speak for myself. If the group did decide to leave the children alone and check on them during dinner they all made a dodgy decision, even the Paynes with their monitor. The situation wasn't like a hotel with a listening service because it was a public space where anyone could enter and exit, even park a car in the car park for a getaway. Three of the children were in beds and were mobile. Two of those could have got into trouble alone in their apartments but only Madeleine could get out of the apartment. That made a dodgy decision by her parents into a really stupid decision. I find it very difficult to believe that any parent with a modicum of intelligence would make that decision in this day and age.
In the past people let their children roam. I went out in the school holidays and came back when I was hungry. No-one knew where I was and no-one worried. Children don't have that kind of freedom now because parents are very aware of stranger danger. Playgrounds don't have tarmac and broken glass any more, they have soft surfaces. Why did a couple who most likely wouldn't let their kids play in a dangerous playground leave them alone in an apartment with an open door to a dangerous balcony? It beggars belief, sorry.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 27, 2015, 11:27:59 PM
Do you even have to ask..there is a massive difference between being in your own house....honestly misty, get a grip on this
I don't need to "get a grip" on this issue, Mercury. It's a discussion, that's all and doesn't affect my life or my children in the slightest. Most children who die in the home usually have an adult in attendance.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 11:32:03 PM
It depends on your definition of "alone", Mercury. I wonder how often most of the parents on here looked in on their little ones every half an hour after they had put them upstairs to bed for the night. I wonder how many looked in on them at all if there was no noise coming from the bedroom. I wonder how many left children to cry themselves to sleep, as per Supernanny and good old-fashioned parenting, without ever checking they hadn't suffocated/choked on their vomit/passed out? Is the act of leaving a child unattended & being 50m away really any more serious than the failure to regularly check on a child's wellbeing?
It worries me how people think the group behaved responsibly. It worries me how many people seem to have a very relaxed attitude towards the duty of care owed to little ones. Why don't you ask the NSPCC to explain the difference to you? Educate yourself, please!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 27, 2015, 11:34:26 PM
I don't need to "get a grip" on this issue, Mercury. It's a discussion, that's all and doesn't affect my life or my children in the slightest. Most children who die in the home usually have an adult in attendance.
And the adult is not to blame. If they were 50m away wining and dining the authorities might have some questions, however. Surely you can see the difference?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 11:35:49 PM
I don't need to "get a grip" on this issue, Mercury. It's a discussion, that's all and doesn't affect my life or my children in the slightest. Most children who die in the home usually have an adult in attendance.
yes you do need go get a grip...leaving 2 and 3 yr olds alone and leaving them with an adult around are NOT the same thing
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 27, 2015, 11:39:47 PM
Some Mark Warner resorts operate a "listening service" ... which entails a member of staff listening for children at the door of the accommodation.
Baby listening service worked well, they really do check your door every 15 mins, and come and get you from dinner/bar. Ems http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/21939-anyone-done-a-mark-warner-with-kids
(i hired one every night from 7pm, they would take the baby off whilst I got dressed up and bring him back when I'd gone to dinner, bath him and put him to bed about 8.30 pm and then put him on baby listening which cut down the cost). Trifle http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/21939-anyone-done-a-mark-warner-with-kids
The resort operates baby listening at night, which was fantastic as it gave us the chance to eat out in peace without having to go back to the room every five minutes to check on them. https://www.holidaywatchdog.com/42312-Kardamena-Lakitira_Beach_Resort_Mark_Warner-Holiday-Review.html
We operated a shift system so that the older boys would take it in turns to eat with us while the other stayed in the room with the 3 yr old. We used the well organised room listening service which worked well and reassured the kids that they were not alone. https://www.holidaywatchdog.com/42312-Kardamena-Lakitira_Beach_Resort_Mark_Warner-Holiday-Review.html
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: puglove on October 27, 2015, 11:55:28 PM
As usual, i can only speak for myself. If the group did decide to leave the children alone and check on them during dinner they all made a dodgy decision, even the Paynes with their monitor. The situation wasn't like a hotel with a listening service because it was a public space where anyone could enter and exit, even park a car in the car park for a getaway. Three of the children were in beds and were mobile. Two of those could have got into trouble alone in their apartments but only Madeleine could get out of the apartment. That made a dodgy decision by her parents into a really stupid decision. I find it very difficult to believe that any parent with a modicum of intelligence would make that decision in this day and age.
In the past people let their children roam. I went out in the school holidays and came back when I was hungry. No-one knew where I was and no-one worried. Children don't have that kind of freedom now because parents are very aware of stranger danger. Playgrounds don't have tarmac and broken glass any more, they have soft surfaces. Why did a couple who most likely wouldn't let their kids play in a dangerous playground leave them alone in an apartment with an open door to a dangerous balcony? It beggars belief, sorry.
Oh blimey, I'm not supposed to join in with this, apparently. But I have to say, top post. When I was little, I'd go out for the whole day, playing on an old ammo dump, and only go home when it was dark, or if one of my pals had a watch and we knew it was tea time. When my kids were growing up, they went out on their bikes or ponies, and I didn't worry. My youngest was so fed up with not having enough pocket-money, she got on her bike with a bucket and sponge (she was 10) and went round the village washing cars.
Now, when my grandchildren are playing in the garden, surrounded by 8 annoying dogs who bark even if a leaf falls off a tree, I watch them all of the time, on high alert. All because of what happened to Madeleine McCann. If a child can be taken from her bed, then surely a child can be taken from anywhere. I blame the McCanns for this. Innocence and freedom has been lost, because the McCanns chose to leave their small children. And, sad old cliche as it is, they wouldn't have left a wallet full of money on the bed. But they left their babies. And this is why people like me are so pissed off.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 27, 2015, 11:55:34 PM
It was not a closed hotel/ resort with security, mw told them th ey didnt have a listening service and presumably reasons why, the flat was open to a main road, it was also left unlocked and back doors open, you couldnt make it up so stop making apologies for them leaving their three babies alone, its too sad for words
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2015, 12:02:19 AM
Oh blimey, I'm not supposed to join in with this, apparently. But I have to say, top post. When I was little, I'd go out for the whole day, playing on an old ammo dump, and only go home when it was dark, or if one of my pals had a watch and we knew it was tea time. When my kids were growing up, they went out on their bikes or ponies, and I didn't worry. My youngest was so fed up with not having enough pocket-money, she got on her bike with a bucket and sponge (she was 10) and went round the village washing cars.
Now, when my grandchildren are playing in the garden, surrounded by 8 annoying dogs who bark even if a leaf falls off a tree, I watch them all of the time, on high alert. All because of what happened to Madeleine McCann. If a child can be taken from her bed, then surely a child can be taken from anywhere. I blame the McCanns for this. Innocence and freedom has been lost, because the McCanns chose to leave their small children. And, sad old cliche as it is, they wouldn't have left a wallet full of money on the bed. But they left their babies. And this is why people like me are so pissed off.
Why aren't you "pissed off" with the abductor?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 12:05:01 AM
It worries me how people think the group behaved responsibly. It worries me how many people seem to have a very relaxed attitude towards the duty of care owed to little ones. Why don't you ask the NSPCC to explain the difference to you? Educate yourself, please!
Why do we have to ask the NSPCC what is responsible parenting? Do all prospective parents have to take a test? Are all mothers given an instruction booklet from the NSPCC when they have a baby? To refer to a "duty of care" makes it appear you accept the right of the State to dictate your lifestyle & define your role as a parent. It's not quite that black & white when the State does not accept its own role in determining the safety of a child.
I know what is sensible parenting. So do you. Some may call us paranoid parents. Others don't see danger when none is visible. What is right & wrong - the McCanns weren't unique & parents continue to do what they did.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 12:18:47 AM
Perhaps because its not any kind of fact he/she exists? Sigh
I mean how can anyne be pissed off with a phantom?
For years it was Tannerman. Everyone who supported the McCanns pointed at him and said 'Look! That's him! The vile predator who took an innocent child from her bed!' Then he was revealed as an innocent father taking his own child home from the creche. Now the wild geese are chasing 'Smithman'. At least he has a face, so for all we know people have identified him in other locations in the town. Op Grange may be on his heels as we speak, busily gathering evidence. Or they may have gone in another direction completely. When they find an abductor, or even provide proof that there was an abductor, then we can all castigate him. Until then it's wait and see if anyone ever finds out for definite what happened.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 12:29:44 AM
For years it was Tannerman. Everyone who supported the McCanns pointed at him and said 'Look! That's him! The vile predator who took an innocent child from her bed!' Then he was revealed as an innocent father taking his own child home from the creche. Now the wild geese are chasing 'Smithman'. At least he has a face, so for all we know people have identified him in other locations in the town. Op Grange may be on his heels as we speak, busily gathering evidence. Or they may have gone in another direction completely. When they find an abductor, or even provide proof that there was an abductor, then we can all castigate him. Until then it's wait and see if anyone ever finds out for definite what happened.
Exactly but some insist there WAS one when they have NO CLUE...bit presumptious at the least just sime kind if fervo religious belief which after being nauseous counts for errrr ZERO
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: puglove on October 28, 2015, 12:30:32 AM
Why do we have to ask the NSPCC what is responsible parenting? Do all prospective parents have to take a test? Are all mothers given an instruction booklet from the NSPCC when they have a baby? To refer to a "duty of care" makes it appear you accept the right of the State to dictate your lifestyle & define your role as a parent. It's not quite that black & white when the State does not accept its own role in determining the safety of a child.
I know what is sensible parenting. So do you. Some may call us paranoid parents. Others don't see danger when none is visible. What is right & wrong - the McCanns weren't unique & parents continue to do what they did.
It's very sad that the NSPCC have to advise people never to leave under 5's home alone, it seems so obvious to most people. The days when a child belonged to the parent are gone, just as the days when a wife belonged to her husband have gone. Children have the right to be looked after and parents have a duty to provide that care, nothing to do with the State.
Are you able to provide just one example of parents leaving three under fives home alone for five nights in unlocked accomodation? If not, then the McCanns are unique.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 12:33:40 AM
From what I have read they had heard of the listening service and decided to do their own
Yes that's correct. Now let's imagine that there was an MW room listening service in PDL that night. And that the T9 were not guests but were the nannies working on the room listening service. Do you think the quality of their nine-nanny room listening service for guests would be worse than, same as, or better than the room listening service in MW resorts in Greece etc at that time?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 12:37:56 AM
Yes that's correct. Now let's imagine that there was an MW room listening service in PDL that night. And that the T9 were not guests but were the nannies working on the room listening service. Do you think the quality of their nine-nanny room listening service would be worse than, same as, or better than the room listening service in MW resorts in Greece etc at that time?
You are not comparing like-for-like therefore judgement cannot be made.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: puglove on October 28, 2015, 12:44:52 AM
Is there any point in me having my say, or will my (non abusive, reasonable point) be whooshed before it's read? Again?
Ask john or admin to find out, people just deleting posts with no comment is a bit out of order and maybe the forum should rethink this measure...if peoples posts are deleted at leat a note ahould be left?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 12:49:23 AM
Is there any point in me having my say, or will my (non abusive, reasonable point) be whooshed before it's read? Again?
I have actually made these points before. That those small children were in danger, just by being left, and abduction would be the last worry. No one in their right mind would leave such young infants in what could basically be a death-trap. Small kids are like sheep, they'll always find a way of hurting themselves.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 12:56:12 AM
It's very sad that the NSPCC have to advise people never to leave under 5's home alone, it seems so obvious to most people. The days when a child belonged to the parent are gone, just as the days when a wife belonged to her husband have gone. Children have the right to be looked after and parents have a duty to provide that care, nothing to do with the State.
Are you able to provide just one example of parents leaving three under fives home alone for five nights in unlocked accomodation? If not, then the McCanns are unique.
They weren't "home alone", ie, abandoned. I wonder what the laws are in other countries? Is "duty of care" only applicable to parents of British culture? Is the number of children relevant? If not, then I quote the other members of the Tapas group as a starter.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 12:58:59 AM
They weren't "home alone", ie, abandoned. I wonder what the laws are in other countries? Is "duty of care" only applicable to parents of British culture? Is the number of children relevant? If not, then I quote the other members of the Tapas group as a starter.
Yes they were home alone....how could they NOT be home alone when they WERE alone ffs
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 01:01:58 AM
Do the real nannies have keys to all the apartments?
They didn't in PDL because there was no room listening service so no need. I assume you are asking about room listening services at other MW resorts in 2007?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2015, 01:04:35 AM
They didn't in PDL because there was no room listening service so no need. I assume you are asking about room listening services at other MW resorts in 2007?
... and the listening services advertised in the Mark Warner 2015/2016 brochure.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 01:05:25 AM
They didn't in PDL because there was no room listening service so no need. I assume you are asking about room listening services at other MW resorts in 2007?
Yes, I'm asking if the genuine nannies operating the listening service elsewhere had keys to every room on their person during their rounds.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 01:09:44 AM
... and the listening services advertised in the Mark Warner 2015/2016 brochure.
As Slarti pointed out - "Our supervised Evening Listening Service from 7.30pm until 11pm features a quiet sleeping area for little ones and a comfy beanbag area for those who want to watch a DVD."
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 01:13:39 AM
As Slarti pointed out - "Our supervised Evening Listening Service from 7.30pm until 11pm features a quiet sleeping area for little ones and a comfy beanbag area for those who want to watch a DVD."
So, a night crèche, not a listening service then? False advertising.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 01:16:09 AM
Yes, I'm asking if the genuine nannies operating the listening service elsewhere had keys to every room on their person during their rounds.
As far as I know those room listening services in 2007 were very professional and safe Misty. Checks every 15 minutes, radios to report any problems like crying to supervisor at base immediately, and it seems fairly obvious IMO they would have had access to keys if required.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 01:23:55 AM
As Slarti pointed out - "Our supervised Evening Listening Service from 7.30pm until 11pm features a quiet sleeping area for little ones and a comfy beanbag area for those who want to watch a DVD."
Child friendly holidays
Childcare is included in the holiday price for those children 2 to 17 years and for little ones from 4 months to 23 months it will be chargeable. We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years and for the older children we run free, fully supervised evening entertainment. This evening childcare takes place from 7.30pm to 11pm. Please check childcare availability for your selected dates and hotel online or with our sales team. http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Elsewhere in the thread I have posted comment from parents who have used the listening service provided ... the above is taken from Mark Warner's current brochure.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 01:26:12 AM
As far as I know those room listening services in 2007 were very professional and safe Misty. Checks every 15 minutes, radios to report any problems like crying to supervisor at base immediately, and it seems fairly obvious IMO they would have had access to keys if required.
So, hypothetically, a child could have had an accident & died inside the apartment, but because there was no noise the checker would have no reason to enter a room. Death would only be discovered upon the parents' return. Equally, anyone with access to the keys & knowing a child was alone could enter a room & inflict harm. I'm not sure that is a safe alternative to a parent entering their own apartment to check on their child. But this case is unique and normal rules don't apply.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 01:28:42 AM
Jesus f christ misty thinks a listening service is superior to physical supervision i rest my case
Welll, yes, you've got a point there.
Can anyone argue that the McCanns were lazy and selfish, and they resented sharing "me time" with their kids? If they wanted a good old bucket and spade holiday with the babies, they could have gone with that. But they didn't. They wanted to jog, and play tennis, and dump the smallies in a "kid's club". Day after day. And when they wanted to eat, drink, and chat their crap, they left the kids in a flat. Dark, and strange, and scary.
Seriously, I wouldn't leave a dog, the way the McCanns left their babies. Delete this if you want to, but it's still true.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 01:33:42 AM
So, hypothetically, a child could have had an accident & died inside the apartment, but because there was no noise the checker would have no reason to enter a room. Death would only be discovered upon the parents' return. Equally, anyone with access to the keys & knowing a child was alone could enter a room & inflict harm. I'm not sure that is a safe alternative to a parent entering their own apartment to check on their child. But this case is unique and normal rules don't apply.
Which is exactly what the mccans their friends did..take the risk And no its not unique. If you safeguard your kids you just dont leave them all alone."end off pegasus as your posts are abusive now to all normal parents...
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 01:37:10 AM
Which is exactly what the mccans their friends did..take the risk And no its not unique. If you safeguard your kids you just dont leave them all alone."end off pegasus as your posts are abusive now to all normal parents...
Which is why I posed the question - is just physically being in the same house as your child more important than physically checking on your child on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2015, 01:37:15 AM
Can anyone argue that the McCanns were lazy and selfish, and they resented sharing "me time" with their kids? If they wanted a good old bucket and spade holiday with the babies, they could have gone with that. But they didn't. They wanted to jog, and play tennis, and dump the smallies in a "kid's club". Day after day. And when they wanted to eat, drink, and chat their crap, they left the kids in a flat. Dark, and strange, and scary.
Seriously, I wouldn't leave a dog, the way the McCanns left their babies. Delete this if you want to, but it's still true.
The difficulty you have with that one is that the type of family holiday you describe is one which seems to be the holiday of choice for many thousands of people. It is a model which is enjoyed by children and parents alike.
Your unfair criticism of the McCann family is therefore applicable to every parent and every family taking a holiday of this type.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 01:40:10 AM
Can anyone argue that the McCanns were lazy and selfish, and they resented sharing "me time" with their kids? If they wanted a good old bucket and spade holiday with the babies, they could have gone with that. But they didn't. They wanted to jog, and play tennis, and dump the smallies in a "kid's club". Day after day. And when they wanted to eat, drink, and chat their crap, they left the kids in a flat. Dark, and strange, and scary.
Seriously, I wouldn't leave a dog, the way the McCanns left their babies. Delete this if you want to, but it's still true.
They should have left them at home with a sitter seeing as they couldnt get rid if them fast enough whilst on hols
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 01:41:23 AM
Which is exactly what the mccans their friends did..take the risk And no its not unique. If you safeguard your kids you just dont leave them all alone."end off pegasus as your posts are abusive now to all normal parents...
IMO the PR allegations that the group did a better room listening service than the MW room listening services at other resorts are unjustly abusive to MW's very high standards Mercury.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 01:50:09 AM
The difficulty you have with that one is that the type of family holiday you describe is one which seems to be the holiday of choice for many thousands of people. It is a model which is enjoyed by children and parents alike.
Your unfair criticism of the McCann family is therefore applicable to every parent and every family taking a holiday of this type. H
Dont be so ridiculous
if youre NOT ridiculous then prove it by providing any cites where any parents left their toddlers alone in unlocked flats in main roads......out of sight and sound....fact is brietta those kids coukd have been burnt to death or been molested or swallowed bleach or electrocuted themselves and the mccanns could have been supping their wine and know no different so its about time you stopped apologising for them dont you think???
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 01:53:52 AM
if youre NOT ridicuous then prove it by providing any cites where any parents left their toddlers alone in unlocked flats in main roads......out of sight and sound....fact is brietta those kids coukd have been burnt to death or been molested or swallowed bleach ir eledtrocuted themselves and the mccanns could have been supping their wine and know no different so its about time you stopped apologising for them dont you think???
Unless you can categorically prove that Madeleine's disappearance was solely as a result of being left alone by her parents, and absolutely nothing else, then I think you should stop attacking her parents.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: puglove on October 28, 2015, 01:58:54 AM
The difficulty you have with that one is that the type of family holiday you describe is one which seems to be the holiday of choice for many thousands of people. It is a model which is enjoyed by children and parents alike.
Your unfair criticism of the McCann family is therefore applicable to every parent and every family taking a holiday of this type.
Do you think so? Do you know anyone who would dump their babies so that they could show off? Do you know anyone who would take their eye off the ball and leave tinies in a dark, scary flat with road frontage, and hope some dodgy bloke who they hardly know from Adam might check on them? Are you insane?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 02:18:42 AM
Do you think so? Do you know anyone who would dump their babies so that they could show off? Do you know anyone who would take their eye off the ball and leave tinies in a dark, scary flat with road frontage, and hope some dodgy bloke who they hardly know from Adam might check on them? Are you insane?
*&*%£
someone needs to ask her that for sure!!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2015, 02:21:46 AM
Do you think so? Do you know anyone who would dump their babies so that they could show off? Do you know anyone who would take their eye off the ball and leave tinies in a dark, scary flat with road frontage, and hope some dodgy bloke who they hardly know from Adam might check on them? Are you insane?
I am never sure what to think about those whose hatred of people they don't know and who in all likelihood they will never know has kept them going for over eight years.
Perhaps you should be directing your question closer to home.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 02:42:38 AM
Back on topic, the parent-child walking distance was 90 metres.
Do you think MW listeners would have been within a 90m walking distance of the relevant apartments at all times, had the service been operative in PdL?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too fa
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 02:56:42 AM
Do you think MW listeners would have been within a 90m walking distance of the relevant apartments at all times, had the service been operative in PdL?
hundreds more
The POINT is would YOU leave your walking toddlers alone...answer is NO...never.....not a fat chance... ..
Leaving now so fill yer boots >>>>
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: puglove on October 28, 2015, 03:00:56 AM
I am never sure what to think about those whose hatred of people they don't know and who in all likelihood they will never know has kept them going for over eight years.
Perhaps you should be directing your question closer to home.
I don't do hate. I just feel desperately sad for a little girl who wasn't loved enough.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 03:11:19 AM
Do you think MW listeners would have been within a 90m walking distance of the relevant apartments at all times, had the service been operative in PdL?
Less than 90 metres IMO Misty, as this person posted in 2007: "other MW hotels have nannies on each floor and every 15 minutes they check for them crying"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2015, 03:27:17 AM
I don't do hate. I just feel desperately sad for a little girl who wasn't loved enough.
I don't know if you "don't do hate" and I care even less.
According to you "the McCanns were lazy and selfish".
Again according to you "they resented sharing "me time" with their kids".
You appear to hold a certain resentment that they jogged and played tennis.
One of the benefits of the holiday for the children was to be "dumped in a "kid's club". Day after day." As no doubt could be confirmed by all the other parents holidaying in Luz at the same time and the parents before and after that.
It seems to be a provision that Mark Warner holidays are particularly good at.
You cannot criticise the McCanns without directing the same criticism at all those other parents ... but it seems you have no problem with that.
They had already done the "good old bucket and spade holiday".
They were a minute away from the children. They were using a system mirroring the baby listening service provided by Mark Warner in other resorts.
Criticise them if you must, I'm sure it is no skin off their backs.
But when you are about it ... please do not forget the addendum of criticism for the person or persons responsible for taking Madeleine McCann from the bosom of her loving family.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 03:32:41 AM
And this review of Paleros "the baby listening started at 8pm. The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you."
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 28, 2015, 08:07:34 AM
Childcare is included in the holiday price for those children 2 to 17 years and for little ones from 4 months to 23 months it will be chargeable. We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years and for the older children we run free, fully supervised evening entertainment. This evening childcare takes place from 7.30pm to 11pm. Please check childcare availability for your selected dates and hotel online or with our sales team. http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Elsewhere in the thread I have posted comment from parents who have used the listening service provided ... the above is taken from Mark Warner's current brochure.
The devil is in he detail as I demonstrated earlier.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2015, 08:28:39 AM
And this review of Paleros "the baby listening started at 8pm. The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you."
baby listening at it's best
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 28, 2015, 10:22:43 AM
Can anyone argue that the McCanns were lazy and selfish, and they resented sharing "me time" with their kids? If they wanted a good old bucket and spade holiday with the babies, they could have gone with that. But they didn't. They wanted to jog, and play tennis, and dump the smallies in a "kid's club". Day after day. And when they wanted to eat, drink, and chat their crap, they left the kids in a flat. Dark, and strange, and scary.
Seriously, I wouldn't leave a dog, the way the McCanns left their babies. Delete this if you want to, but it's still true.
seriously? You don't leave your dog unattended? Wow! What happens if you want to go shopping or to the cinema or need to visit the doctor? Do you take it to kennels or hire a dogsitter or does it come with you?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: puglove on October 28, 2015, 10:53:03 AM
seriously? You don't leave your dog unattended? Wow! What happens if you want to go shopping or to the cinema or need to visit the doctor? Do you take it to kennels or hire a dogsitter or does it come with you?
Sigh.
I wouldn't leave my dogs in a place where they could.....
Be stolen.
Get out and run away.
Damage themselves.
Choke on something.
If that makes me a neurotic, "helicopter" dog owner, then so be it. I'd rather be that, than spend the rest of my life being tortured by thoughts of where my dogs might be, and what might be being done to them.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: John on October 28, 2015, 10:59:49 AM
Please stay on topic.
Off topic posts have been relaunched as "Is the apportioning of blame a coping mechanism?"
I wouldn't leave my dogs in a place where they could.....
Be stolen.
Get out and run away.
Damage themselves.
Choke on something.
If that makes me a neurotic, "helicopter" dog owner, then so be it. I'd rather be that, than spend the rest of my life being tortured by thoughts of where my dogs might be, and what might be being done to them.
So where is this completely safe place you would leave them then? A rubber room with no doors or windows?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: John on October 28, 2015, 11:15:05 AM
I wouldn't leave my dogs in a place where they could.....
Be stolen.
Get out and run away.
Damage themselves.
Choke on something.
If that makes me a neurotic, "helicopter" dog owner, then so be it. I'd rather be that, than spend the rest of my life being tortured by thoughts of where my dogs might be, and what might be being done to them.
I'm afraid I'm also of the old school where the children come first but other people have other views which are to be respected. I have recalled my own experience of losing a son for about twenty minutes even after practicing what I considered to be good parenting skills.
Things happen, taking ones eye off the ball for seconds can result in a tragedy. How many young children from Portugal to Madeira to Kos to Australia were there happily playing outside one minute but gone, disappeared into thin air the next? I know from my own experience on a beach at Palma, Majorca, that these things happen. The best we can hope for is to mitigate the risk by just trying to be good parents.
50 metres might be too far but then it might not be. The McCanns admit that they were lulled into a false sense of security by the tranquility at the resort, an ideal hunting ground for any predator.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 28, 2015, 12:12:00 PM
I'm afraid I'm also of the old school where the children come first but other people have other views which are to be respected. I have recalled my own experience of losing a son for about twenty minutes even after practicing what I considered to be good parenting skills.
Things happen, taking ones eye off the ball for seconds can result in a tragedy. How many young children from Portugal to Madeira to Kos to Australia were there happily playing outside one minute but gone, disappeared into thin air the next? I know from my own experience on a beach at Palma, Majorca, that these things happen. The best we can hope for is to mitigate the risk by just trying to be good parents.
50 metres might be too far but then it might not be. The McCanns admit that they were lulled into a false sense of security by the tranquility at the resort, an ideal hunting ground for any predator.
To quote dear old Bill Wagstaff, bard extraordinaire: "and thereby hangs a tale"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 28, 2015, 02:14:15 PM
Which is why I posed the question - is just physically being in the same house as your child more important than physically checking on your child on a regular basis.
Pick the one which will best deliver the desired objective.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 04:34:00 PM
Pick the one which will best deliver the desired objective.
Parents being on the premises did not appear to have prevented any of the previously reported abuse of children in Portuguese holiday homes. The grand consensus of opinion seems to be that it's OK to leave a child if you use a resort's own listening service when you go & dine 10 minutes walking distance away, but not OK to leave a child & adopt your own equally efficient checking service, complete with key, from within one minute's walking distance. Is it the law which is crazy or the people?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 28, 2015, 04:45:02 PM
Parents being on the premises did not appear to have prevented any of the previously reported abuse of children in Portuguese holiday homes. The grand consensus of opinion seems to be that it's OK to leave a child if you use a resort's own listening service when you go & dine 10 minutes walking distance away, but not OK to leave a child & adopt your own equally efficient checking service, complete with key, from within one minute's walking distance. Is it the law which is crazy or the people?
I am not worried about the law or what other people do or the efficacy of baby listening services. Here is the problem. "maintain the safety of your child(ren) for a period of three hours in a foreign country where your apartment is not in a secure building or compound and may be accessed from public highways on two sides". You may also wish to have a meal within the specified time frame. Sort out a solution that you will be content with. That will include what price you are prepared to pay should your decision go belly up.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2015, 04:50:59 PM
Parents being on the premises did not appear to have prevented any of the previously reported abuse of children in Portuguese holiday homes. The grand consensus of opinion seems to be that it's OK to leave a child if you use a resort's own listening service when you go & dine 10 minutes walking distance away, but not OK to leave a child & adopt your own equally efficient checking service, complete with key, from within one minute's walking distance. Is it the law which is crazy or the people?
If a parent behaves sensibly they cannot be blamed if things go wrong. If a parent behaves recklessly then they have to accept blame if things go wrong. What key? Do you know sonmething we don't?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
If a parent behaves sensibly they cannot be blamed if things go wrong. If a parent behaves recklessly then they have to accept blame if things go wrong. What key? Do you know sonmething we don't?
so it depends on your opinion that the mccanns behaved recklessly...I don't think they did...
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 05:43:47 PM
If a parent behaves sensibly they cannot be blamed if things go wrong. If a parent behaves recklessly then they have to accept blame if things go wrong. What key? Do you know sonmething we don't?
Reply #435 on: Today at 03:32:41 AM »
Quote
And this review of Paleros "the baby listening started at 8pm. The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you."
Does that sound to you like the listening service personnel are equipped with a key to enter your room in an emergency? When the member of staff is standing at one door, waiting, what is happening about the checks on the other children on the rounds?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 05:51:46 PM
R is for Random ... T is for Test You've underestimated the very high standards required to be allowed to look after kids at a holiday resort.
Maybe you over-estimate the childcare skills, attention span & common sense of the average 19 year old nanny on a working holiday. RBTesting only rules out the booze, nothing else.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 28, 2015, 08:15:45 PM
And this review of Paleros "the baby listening started at 8pm. The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you."
Does that sound to you like the listening service personnel are equipped with a key to enter your room in an emergency? When the member of staff is standing at one door, waiting, what is happening about the checks on the other children on the rounds?
In the McCann case no key was required. Any passer by could enter their apartment at will.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 08:23:35 PM
Maybe you over-estimate the childcare skills, attention span & common sense of the average 19 year old nanny on a working holiday. RBTesting only rules out the booze, nothing else.
MW listening services were a thousand times better than the amateur LDLTHS's listening service Misty. Checks every 15 minutes and a strict no drinking on the job rule.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2015, 08:26:53 PM
MW listening services were a thousand times better than the amateur LDLTHS's listening service Misty. Checks every 15 minutes and a strict no drinking on the job rule.
that was the claim
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 28, 2015, 08:34:59 PM
In the McCann case no key was required. Any passer by could enter their apartment at will.
It's much tougher than that.
Any passer by had to twig that it was possible to enter the apartment at will.
So, how did any passer by manage to twig this?
All it required was - the knowledge that the McCanns left the patio door open IN THE EVENINGS (daytime does not count) - the knowledge that there was a young child or children left vulnerable inside.
Unless we are back in the territory of burglar is surprised by Maddie and needs to haul her out of there, leaving no trace.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 08:47:56 PM
MW listening services in Greece etc in 2007 had checks every 15 minutes - as verified by parents who actually used those services Davel.
In comparision, and this is from a very good and honest source who was there, 3 children went unchecked by an amateur listening service for 45 minutes one evening in PDL, absolute fact, and BTW the distance then was more than the usual 90 metres, it was 100 metres.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2015, 08:49:24 PM
MW listening services in Greece etc in 2007 had checks every 15 minutes - as verified by parents who actually used those services Davel.
In comparision, and this is from a very good and honest source who was there, 3 children went unchecked by an amateur listening service for 45 minutes one evening in PDL, absolute fact.
what source is that
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 08:55:12 PM
MW listening services were a thousand times better than the amateur LDLTHS's listening service Misty. Checks every 15 minutes and a strict no drinking on the job rule.
LOL - what's LDLTHS, please? I reserve judgement on the calibre of staff MW may have employed in the UK for a job abroad.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 09:00:18 PM
MW listening services in Greece etc in 2007 had checks every 15 minutes - as verified by parents who actually used those services Davel.
In comparision, and this is from a very good and honest source who was there, 3 children went unchecked by an amateur listening service for 45 minutes one evening in PDL, absolute fact, and BTW the distance then was more than the usual 90 metres, it was 100 metres.
how would the parents know how accurate the checks were...you are not making sense
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2015, 09:04:44 PM
Page 60 Davel I'm citing "23H50" and claiming that is 45 minutes after 23H05. If you don't believe me try Processos Vol 10 page 2541 line 47. As I said, this witness is honest , it's the PR peeps who mislead. And BTW the parent-child distance was 100 metres rather than the usual 90 metres.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 09:50:52 PM
Page 60 Davel I'm citing "23H50" and claiming that is 45 minutes after 23H05. If you don't believe me try Processos Vol 10 page 2541 line 47. As I said, this witness is honest , it's the PR peeps who mislead. And BTW the parent-child distance was 100 metres rather than the usual 90 metres.
The poster doesnt do links, quotes and reading the files much, they need help, lets give him it
Regarding this night she says that none of the children cried, she would have noticed as she was in the room. Regarding the fact that Madeleine on the next morning, Thursday, during breakfast said to both of them that she had been crying and that nobody had come to her room, she presumes that this crying must have been before she and Gerry returned to the apartment. When she asked Madeleine about this however, the child gave no importance to the matter. On this night they also checked on the children every half hour; however she thinks that 45 minutes had gone by from the time of the last check to when they arrived, as exceptionally they went to the Tapas bar. On this day she thinks that Gerry arrived at the apartment around 23:50 and she arrived 5 minutes afterwards. She went to sleep in Madeleine's room 15/20 minutes afterwards. Before this she spent a few minutes in her bed next to Gerry's.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 28, 2015, 11:14:37 PM
The important point is: they could not see the children and didn't want to look in on them either- just that old trustworthy listening service they had.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 29, 2015, 02:57:33 AM
The important point is: they could not see the children and didn't want to look in on them either- just that old trustworthy listening service they had.
Good question is why the dad at least as we havent a quote from mum , but a near enough insinuation, did he actually even bother going indoors to check if he never actually checked..
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 29, 2015, 03:31:15 AM
Good question is why the dad at least as we havent a quote from mum , but a near enough insinuation, did he actually even bother going indoors to check if he never actually checked..
A good listening check could be done by just opening the sliding door a few cm, listening, then closing it again and back to the restaurant.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 29, 2015, 03:37:44 AM
Yes but then you wouldnt be able to say i saw my daughter and thought how lucky i was....!
Which would mean the children weren't seen at all between 8.30pm and 10pm, unless you count Matthew seeing some humps in cots in that two windowed bedroom.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 04:41:06 PM
Which would mean the children weren't seen at all between 8.30pm and 10pm, unless you count Matthew seeing some humps in cots in that two windowed bedroom.
Indeed which opens up that 'window of opperchancity' < love that word! lol
And of course one would think they would have been even more cautious, than prevous nights and physically checked the children after Maddies plea for answers to 'where were you last night'...
This could be the reason Gerry claimed he did a physical check (and added he felt someone was in the room), and why JT saw an abductor.... on the same street at the same time as other witneses who saw not her and not the abductor! and why Kate found Maddie missing... that door being measured very carefully by so many- so that the time scale was narrowed. They didn't account for people checking and finding with all the claims of checking and being 'in the garden' that they didn't bump into the bloody abductor! oh apart from JT that is.
Kate gave a good description of saying 'yeah,yeah there was only a small window of opportunity' CLUCK CLUCK... that interview said a lot about their attitude.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2015, 04:46:33 PM
Indeed which opens up that 'window of opperchancity' < love that word! lol
And of course one would think they would have been even more cautious, than prevous nights and physically checked the children after Maddies plea for answers to 'where were you last night'...
This could be the reason Gerry claimed he did a physical check (and added he felt someone was in the room), and why JT saw an abductor.... on the same street at the same time as other witneses who saw not her and not the abductor! and why Kate found Maddie missing... that door being measured very carefully by so many- so that the time scale was narrowed. They didn't account for people checking and finding with all the claims of checking and being 'in the garden' that they didn't bump into the bloody abductor! oh apart from JT that is.
Kate gave a good description of saying 'yeah,yeah there was only a small window of opportunity' CLUCK CLUCK... that interview said a lot about their attitude.
It is my understanding that the notion an intruder may have already been in the apartment was a retrospective one.
If you know different, would you please supply a cite for Dr McCann saying at the time ... "(and added he felt someone was in the room)"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 04:55:55 PM
It is my understanding that the notion an intruder may have already been in the apartment was a retrospective one.
If you know different, would you please supply a cite for Dr McCann saying at the time ... "(and added he felt someone was in the room)"
Retrospective? ahh I see he added that bit on afterwards for effect. That always bothered me, mind you why say it restrospectivly if you 'felt it at the time'..hmmm no cite today- can't be bothered. You have already agreed he did say it.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2015, 05:09:31 PM
Indeed which opens up that 'window of opperchancity' < love that word! lol
And of course one would think they would have been even more cautious, than prevous nights and physically checked the children after Maddies plea for answers to 'where were you last night'...
This could be the reason Gerry claimed he did a physical check (and added he felt someone was in the room), and why JT saw an abductor.... on the same street at the same time as other witneses who saw not her and not the abductor! and why Kate found Maddie missing... that door being measured very carefully by so many- so that the time scale was narrowed. They didn't account for people checking and finding with all the claims of checking and being 'in the garden' that they didn't bump into the bloody abductor! oh apart from JT that is.
Kate gave a good description of saying 'yeah,yeah there was only a small window of opportunity' CLUCK CLUCK... that interview said a lot about their attitude.
Gerry did not say that he felt someone was in the room. This is a gross distortion of Facts.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2015, 05:13:01 PM
Retrospective? ahh I see he added that bit on afterwards for effect. That always bothered me, mind you why say it restrospectivly if you 'felt it at the time'..hmmm no cite today- can't be bothered. You have already agreed he did say it.
You are unable to provide a cite for the simple reason there is none. What you have posted is therefore inaccurate and you should therefore amend your post to reflect your error.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 05:19:33 PM
Retrospective? ahh I see he added that bit on afterwards for effect. That always bothered me, mind you why say it restrospectivly if you 'felt it at the time'..hmmm no cite today- can't be bothered. You have already agreed he did say it.
Brietta quoted
"It is my understanding that the notion an intruder may have already been in the apartment was a retrospective one."
unquote
Did he or did he not say it retrospectivly or not? where is your cite he said it retrospectivly?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2015, 05:23:24 PM
Gerry did not say that he felt someone was in the room. This is a gross distortion of Facts.
September 2007;
Madeleine McCann: Gerry certain he was in bedroom with kidnapper http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1563738/Madeleine-McCann-Gerry-certain-he-was-in-bedroom-with-kidnapper.html
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 29, 2015, 05:34:49 PM
Madeleine McCann: Gerry certain he was in bedroom with kidnapper http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1563738/Madeleine-McCann-Gerry-certain-he-was-in-bedroom-with-kidnapper.html
"Gerry believes there was certainly something odd," the friend said. "The bedroom door was ajar when he got in and he thought: 'That's strange'.
"He went into the room, checked that Madeleine was still asleep in bed; she was and he came out, closed the door.
"Initially he thought she might have got up and gone to the toilet or gone to get a drink or something but now he thinks that the abductor must have been in there hiding."
Anyone claiming that Gerry said he thought at the time he was doing the check that there was someone else in the room needs their heads examining.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Anna on October 29, 2015, 05:36:06 PM
Madeleine McCann: Gerry certain he was in bedroom with kidnapper http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1563738/Madeleine-McCann-Gerry-certain-he-was-in-bedroom-with-kidnapper.html
Agonisingly, he is now sure that standing behind this door was his four-year-old daughter's abductor, waiting to steal her from her bed in the Praia da Luz.
The haunting memory was revealed by a close family friend, who said Mr McCann and his wife Kate, both 39, checked on their children as they ate at a tapas bar 40 yards away.
"Gerry believes there was certainly something odd," the friend said. "The bedroom door was ajar when he got in and he thought: 'That's strange'.
"He went into the room, checked that Madeleine was still asleep in bed; she was and he came out, closed the door.
"Initially he thought she might have got up and gone to the toilet or gone to get a drink or something but now he thinks that the abductor must have been in there hiding."
The friend said Gerry had pondered over the sequence of events that night for four and half painful months. "He believes the abductor came in, opened the door and didn't have time to close it (before Mr McCann arrived)," said the friend.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 29, 2015, 05:42:05 PM
No way could anyone be behind that door, which surely he must have known, having spent a week in that apartment. The intruder could have been anorexic I suppose.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2015, 05:51:36 PM
Madeleine McCann: Gerry certain he was in bedroom with kidnapper http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1563738/Madeleine-McCann-Gerry-certain-he-was-in-bedroom-with-kidnapper.html
In hindsight, so don't try to pretend otherwise.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 05:56:30 PM
No way could anyone be behind that door, which surely he must have known, having spent a week in that apartment. The intruder could have been anorexic I suppose.
or a shapeshifter. OK this is where I get interested in the small details others over look.
He noticed the door was different the way he left it? who was the last person to touch that door? was it not Kate? and how closed would it have been? very? almost? ajar? It had to be noticably different for someone to 'notice'. He gives us a reason to look in on his beautiful children bcause he would not have done a physical check otherwise. Now if the door was open he thought a child (did the babies climb out of cots)? Maddie may have woke and wandered? no it had to be an abductor, because woke and wandered is a no no. So, if he noticed the door to be different so much so he felt he had to do a physical check, why not walk into the room and do a quick scan of the apartment just to make sure everything was ok. Who did he think moved the door anyway?
in retrospect it was the abductor...hmm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 29, 2015, 05:59:27 PM
Which would mean the children weren't seen at all between 8.30pm and 10pm, unless you count Matthew seeing some humps in cots in that two windowed bedroom.
It's the same on 9.30pm check as on 9.05 check, listening can be done perfectly well by sliding the lounge balcony dppr open a few cemtimetres, listening from the balcony for a few seconds, closing it and back to dinner. Going inside doesn't improve listening at all.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 29, 2015, 06:05:01 PM
Which would mean the children weren't seen at all between 8.30pm and 10pm, unless you count Matthew seeing some humps in cots in that two windowed bedroom.
Between 7.15pm and 10.00pm G-Unit. The 8.30pm check (just before they went out to the restaurant 90 metres away) was listening at the child bedroom door only, not visual.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 29, 2015, 06:26:28 PM
Would you trust your kids to an amateur room listening service that was based in a bar 100 metres away, allowed it's checkers to drink on the job, used no mobile phones or radios, and stretched the checking interval to 45 minutes if something urgent like amarguinha came up Davel?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2015, 06:34:07 PM
"It is my understanding that the notion an intruder may have already been in the apartment was a retrospective one."
unquote
Did he or did he not say it retrospectivly or not? where is your cite he said it retrospectivly?
Have you amended your mistaken statement, or is that a step too far?
The absolute pits to attempt to blacken the names of these parents of a missing child with the suggestion her father was aware of an intruder in her bedroom. There are apparently no depths to which you will not plunge.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 08:15:38 PM
Have you amended your mistaken statement, or is that a step too far?
The absolute pits to attempt to blacken the names of these parents of a missing child with the suggestion her father was aware of an intruder in her bedroom. There are apparently no depths to which you will not plunge.
Taking to personal insult is a good sign of losing the argument. I am not going to amend my post because:
Gerry said he noticed the door was more open than it was? this is why he looked in on his family- otherwise he would not have looked in on them at all. So he noticed something was not as it seems because he investigated via physically checking his children ( according to Gerry-there is no evidence of this actually happening).
He then claims it was the abductor- how peculiar. IF he was so concerned about the door being moved why did he not check the whole apartment? none of this part of the story makes any sense at all.
So Gerry did think there was someone in the apartment when he was there- this has been established. RETROSPECTIVLY.
And so, trying to make a story fit without proper consideration is not a good idea. How did he know the door was moved if it was Kate who closed the door? did they measure or something, and hen Kate sees the same moving door to investigate further, this sounds a bit like a turnstyle at a football ground.
The parents blackened their own name- they are the procurers of their own fate. I played no part in that. but thank you for suggesting I had.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2015, 08:36:43 PM
So no one ever sees anything odd and then dismisses it as imagination? I have come across this often in the holiday properties that I manage. Thinking that someone had been there without my knowledge. To such an extent that I now leave certain things in positions known only to me.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 29, 2015, 08:46:42 PM
Would you trust your kids to an amateur room listening service that was based in a bar 100 metres away, allowed it's checkers to drink on the job, used no mobile phones or radios, and stretched the checking interval to 45 minutes if something urgent like amarguinha came up Davel?
You don't have to trust anyone if you are checking your own children. BTW where were those MW nannies going out to at 10pm that night when they had crèche duty the next morning?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 29, 2015, 09:26:34 PM
Agonisingly, he is now sure that standing behind this door was his four-year-old daughter's abductor, waiting to steal her from her bed in the Praia da Luz.
The haunting memory was revealed by a close family friend, who said Mr McCann and his wife Kate, both 39, checked on their children as they ate at a tapas bar 40 yards away.
"Gerry believes there was certainly something odd," the friend said. "The bedroom door was ajar when he got in and he thought: 'That's strange'.
"He went into the room, checked that Madeleine was still asleep in bed; she was and he came out, closed the door.
"Initially he thought she might have got up and gone to the toilet or gone to get a drink or something but now he thinks that the abductor must have been in there hiding."
The friend said Gerry had pondered over the sequence of events that night for four and half painful months. "He believes the abductor came in, opened the door and didn't have time to close it (before Mr McCann arrived)," said the friend.
Or it could be a figment of his retrospective imagination.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 29, 2015, 09:27:50 PM
You don't have to trust anyone if you are checking your own children. BTW where were those MW nannies going out to at 10pm that night when they had crèche duty the next morning?
Some of them went to Mirage Misty - but hope you're not assuming that people who go out socially have to drink large amounts of alcohol or even any at all. In fact the nannies could never have done what those tourists did, this holiday company had extremely high standards of child care.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 29, 2015, 09:46:02 PM
So no one ever sees anything odd and then dismisses it as imagination? I have come across this often in the holiday properties that I manage. Thinking that someone had been there without my knowledge. To such an extent that I now leave certain things in positions known only to me.
This was only 30 minutes after they left when Gerry said the door had moved. In their statements they say Madeleine never woke up until the early morning hours. So who did Gerry think had moved the door? He said Madeleine was asleep in the same position when she was put to bed. His behaviour is extremely strange and what's even more strange is he doesn't mention that door move in his first statement. This is his first statement:
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." (GM 4 May)
No door move!
At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. He entered the bedroom, he observed the twins and he did not even notice whether Madeleine was there" as everything was calm, the shutters were closed and the door to the bedroom was ajar as usual. (GM 4 May)
The door was ajar as usual and Matt said it wasn't. Oh dear what a total cock up!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 29, 2015, 09:56:00 PM
This was only 30 minutes after they left when Gerry said the door had moved. In their statements they say Madeleine never woke up until the early morning hours. So who did Gerry think had moved the door? He said Madeleine was asleep in the same position when she was put to bed. His behaviour is extremely strange and what's even more strange is he doesn't mention that door move in his first statement. This is his first statement:
In this way, at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." (GM 4 May)
No door move!
At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. He entered the bedroom, he observed the twins and he did not even notice whether Madeleine was there" as everything was calm, the shutters were closed and the door to the bedroom was ajar as usual. (GM 4 May)
The door was ajar as usual and Matt said it wasn't. Oh dear what a total cock up!
Indeed! the devil is in the detail. When you break these stories down with to little peices it makes for scary reading. The algorithms always works to conclusion!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 01:52:50 AM
GM 4 May statement ...
Quote
At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. He entered the bedroom, he observed the twins and he did not even notice whether Madeleine was there as everything was calm, the shutters were closed and the door to the bedroom was ajar as usual. After that Matt returned to the restaurant."
I suggest that GM simply didn't know at this stage the exact door angle and exact light level that MO had seen. GM and MO statements were simultaneous in two different rooms on 4th May.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 30, 2015, 01:41:59 PM
GM 4 May statement ...I suggest that GM simply didn't know at this stage the exact door angle and exact light level that MO had seen. GM and MO statements were simultaneous in two different rooms on 4th May.
The point is the door was ajar according to Gerry in his first statement not open.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2015, 03:43:55 PM
A lot of people have said that baby listening services in hotels are popular and well-used. They may like to read the comments on here;
that statement is blatantly untrue...if the mccanns say something that is untrue you imply they are liars and question their whole credibility...point made
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 30, 2015, 05:07:11 PM
No I do not mean the crèche. If you care to follow the links I have posted you will see I refer to the baby listening service provided by Mark Warner holidays.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on October 30, 2015, 06:49:43 PM
No I do not mean the crèche. If you care to follow the links I have posted you will see I refer to the baby listening service provided by Mark Warner holidays.
The one scrapped ages ago? Where staff listened at the door of a room or apartment with a child or children behind it?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 30, 2015, 07:29:39 PM
The MW promotion IMO is for the evening creche, as Mw announced a few years ago they had totally scrapped the "listening services" at all their resorts
Unless someone has concrete evidence to the contrary
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 30, 2015, 08:19:47 PM
Has any toddler ever been abducted from a holiday resort?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ferryman on October 30, 2015, 08:22:35 PM
Leaving aside the fact that story has been debunked, no abduction took place, try harder
It is a patently ridiculous question, since there has only been (to my knowledge) one abduction from the bath of a ground-floor flat (while all the family was at home) but we know it happened, because its victim (thank God!) survived to tell the tale, and Peter Voisey was caught and is in jail for the crime.
But I'm sure there have been abductions of children while on holiday
The MW promotion IMO is for the evening creche, as Mw announced a few years ago they had totally scrapped the "listening services" at all their resorts
Unless someone has concrete evidence to the contrary
yet still they are promoted in the uk
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2015, 10:39:39 PM
MW are advertising an evening listening service....no where does it mention a creche
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 10:51:25 PM
No I do not mean the crèche. If you care to follow the links I have posted you will see I refer to the baby listening service provided by Mark Warner holidays.
Cite, I have visited the websites and they talk about crèches.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2015, 11:12:19 PM
I have seen it this evening but having just returned from a 5 hour round trip to heathrow I will find it tomorrow
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 30, 2015, 11:21:51 PM
Once again - the wording in the 2015-2016 online MW holiday brochure http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Child friendly holidays
Childcare is included in the holiday price for those children 2 to 17 years and for little ones from 4 months to 23 months it will be chargeable. We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years and for the older children we run free, fully supervised evening entertainment. This evening childcare takes place from 7.30pm to 11pm. Please check childcare availability for your selected dates and hotel online or with our sales team.
Baby Club (4-11 months)
The Baby Club is a key element of our baby friendly holidays and provides a calm and comforting environment, just like home and operates on a ratio of one nanny to two babies. We have a "keyworker" system in place, ensuring where possible your child has the same nanny throughout the week.
Your child's dedicated keyworker will take over your baby’s routine throughout their stay in the crèche and provide you a full update at the end of each morning or afternoon session together with a completed keyworker sheet. All our Baby Clubs have a quiet sleeping area furnished with travel cots and clean linen. In addition, there is a kitchen facility equipped with microwave, sterilisers, kettle and fridge for parents use.
6 Mornings: 9am to 12.30pm - £180 per week 6 Afternoons: 2.30pm to 5.30pm - £180 per week 6 Full days: 9am to 12.30pm & 2.30pm to 5.30pm - £360 per week
There is a free Evening Listening Service available from 7.30pm to 11pm for children aged 4 months to 5 years.
Baby Club is available at Levante Beach Resort, Lakitira Beach Resort, Helona Beach Resort, Lemnos Beach Resort, and San Lucianu Beach Resort.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2015, 11:24:20 PM
Once again - the wording in the 2015-2016 online MW holiday brochure http://www.markwarner.co.uk/family-holidays/summer
Child friendly holidays
Childcare is included in the holiday price for those children 2 to 17 years and for little ones from 4 months to 23 months it will be chargeable. We offer a free evening listening service for children from 4 months to 5 years and for the older children we run free, fully supervised evening entertainment. This evening childcare takes place from 7.30pm to 11pm. Please check childcare availability for your selected dates and hotel online or with our sales team.
Baby Club (4-11 months)
The Baby Club is a key element of our baby friendly holidays and provides a calm and comforting environment, just like home and operates on a ratio of one nanny to two babies. We have a "keyworker" system in place, ensuring where possible your child has the same nanny throughout the week.
Your child's dedicated keyworker will take over your baby’s routine throughout their stay in the crèche and provide you a full update at the end of each morning or afternoon session together with a completed keyworker sheet. All our Baby Clubs have a quiet sleeping area furnished with travel cots and clean linen. In addition, there is a kitchen facility equipped with microwave, sterilisers, kettle and fridge for parents use.
6 Mornings: 9am to 12.30pm - £180 per week 6 Afternoons: 2.30pm to 5.30pm - £180 per week 6 Full days: 9am to 12.30pm & 2.30pm to 5.30pm - £360 per week
There is a free Evening Listening Service available from 7.30pm to 11pm for children aged 4 months to 5 years.
Baby Club is available at Levante Beach Resort, Lakitira Beach Resort, Helona Beach Resort, Lemnos Beach Resort, and San Lucianu Beach Resort.
that's the one
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 30, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
It says "There is a free Evening Listening Service available from 7.30pm to 11pm for children aged 4 months to 5 years."
But that is not a room listening service Davel. Read the details of it on the page for Latikira, Lemnos, any resort, you will find it is, in fact, a centralised listening service, all kids in a central location, AKA a creche.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2015, 11:40:59 PM
It says "There is a free Evening Listening Service available from 7.30pm to 11pm for children aged 4 months to 5 years."
But that is not a room listening service Davel.
then what is it
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 30, 2015, 11:46:18 PM
The fact remains they were trying to save money having a cheepo holiday- I find their use of the English language to slide from the truth to be abhorrant.
Can see the apartment... actual Could not see into the apartment or hear the children if they woke up we were checking the children... listening at doors, not regulated it was like sitting in the garden... over 80 meters away having to walk around a pool.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 11:47:41 PM
Ok let's start with Sardinia http://www.markwarner.co.uk/sun-holidays/sardinia/perdepera/childcare Click on "free evening activities" - read what the evening listening service is - it is a creche.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 30, 2015, 11:49:31 PM
Ok let's start with Sardinia http://www.markwarner.co.uk/sun-holidays/sardinia/perdepera/childcare Click on "free evening activities" - read what the evening listening service is - it is a creche.
no its Lemnos
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 30, 2015, 11:55:58 PM
It says "There is a free Evening Listening Service available from 7.30pm to 11pm for children aged 4 months to 5 years."
But that is not a room listening service Davel. Read the details of it on the page for Latikira, Lemnos, any resort, you will find it is, in fact, a centralised listening service, all kids in a central location, AKA a creche.
It is false advertising if that is the case. They should be referring to a free evening crèche.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 12:10:40 AM
"Can see the apartment..."
translate that from image-management-lingo to relevant fact:
"Can see the top half of the south facing exterior wall"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 12:18:38 AM
But you haven't fully read the website. BTW that's how this whole debacle started.
A LISTENING service is advertised. Not watching & listening. (Sorry for the caps, none of the addtl features work when I post) Do the resort staff just throw the kids in a room with DVD's, bean bags & close the door? BTW the ski holidays do state "night crèche".
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 12:42:11 AM
If you fully read the brochure Misty you will discover that the children are continuously supervised and to a very high standard.
Every brochure for every nursery will tell you that. My daughter has worked in several nurseries & Early Years settings so I would beg to differ, given her experiences. It's also worth looking at the variable qualification levels when applying to become a MW nanny.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 12:51:21 AM
A LISTENING service is advertised. Not watching & listening. ...(snip)
Dear Resort. I wish to complain about your false advertising. Your brochure says a free glass of wine with every meal. I was horrified when in addition to the glass of wine you also gave me a free dessert, a coffee, an after-dinner liquour, a selection of newspapers, and a bunch of flowers. You have deliberately provided a service far better than what I assumed when I couldn't be arsed to read your brochure properly. I therefore demand a discount, and while your at it I'll have an extra 10% off as well.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 31, 2015, 01:01:44 AM
Dear Resort. I wish to complain about your false advertising. Your brochure says a free glass of wine with every meal. I was horrified when in addition to the glass of wine you also gave me a free dessert, a coffee, an after-dinner liquour, a selection of newspapers, and a bunch of flowers. You have deliberately provided a service far better than what I assumed when I couldn't be arsed to read your brochure properly. I therefore demand a discount, and while your at it I'll have an extra 10% off as well.
What do you understand from the description "a Listening Service"? Did the travel agent or online brochure explain it properly for you or did you have to read a section called "Evening Activities" to find out about "Evening Inactivity"? Does it tell you that you have to transport your child from your holiday residence to a room full of potentially noisy toddlers watching Frozen? Does it tell you someone will be watching them as your child plays/sleeps? Does it tell you that really you're going to be forced to pay top whack for a babysitter to ensure your child can be properly settled for the night?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 01:23:55 AM
Again. I suggest read the whole brochure Misty, if you had you would have noticed there are two separate areas, one for the kids who are awake and watching a movie etc, the other for those who are sleepy/asleep, and all excellently supervised (from a distance considerably closer than 90 metres).
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2015, 01:36:52 AM
Again. I suggest read the whole brochure Misty, if you had you would have noticed there are two separate areas, one for the kids who are awake and watching a movie etc, the other for those who are sleepy/asleep, and all excellently supervised (from a distance considerably closer than 90 metres).
I have posted this before from a parent who has actually used the listening service ... and I must say given the wealth of literature on the internet advertising holidays ... not just with Mark Warner ... with a listening service, I am finding this whole discussion bizarre in the extreme. Is there a parallel universe out there and a parallel internet??
Mumsnet Talk
Ems, we went to Paleros last year, and had such a great time that we're going again next year. The child-care was great, our 3yo went sailing, ice cream trips, swimming in a really neat childs pool - all with the Mini Club that he was in. Meals for kids were really great, they serve tea at around 5pm, with lots of kids favorites to eat.
Then the baby listening started at 8pm.
The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you. We were called twice, and both times they had obviously heard him as soon as he woke up, as by the time we got to him he hadn't really noticed that we weren't in the room.
How old are your kids? I think that if they are over 3, and used to being left that they would really enjoy it. We really liked the adults food too, plenty of choice, drinkable wine, good company. (If you are used to eating in very posh restaurants, then maybe you wouldn't like the food, but.....). It was the first holiday since I've had my son that I actually felt relaxed at the end of it. They also had a 24 hour kitchen that was stocked with Mothercare sterilisers, milk, kettle and bottled water. All the cots and cot linen were Mothercare, all the toys were 'known' brands and looked very clean and looked after. If you have any specific questions - post again. p.s. my friend went at the end of the season and said that all the staff were a bit 'jaded', we went at the end of June and they were super keen, and very attentive. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/198-anyone-been-to-mark-warner-in-lemnos
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 31, 2015, 01:38:59 AM
Again. I suggest read the whole brochure Misty, if you had you would have noticed there are two separate areas, one for the kids who are awake and watching a movie etc, the other for those who are sleepy/asleep, and all excellently supervised (from a distance considerably closer than 90 metres).
So why advertise a listening service when it is clearly a night crèche? It's misleading. If I want my child to sleep in its own bed behind a locked door whilst I dine out, why should I have to pay extra for a sitter because the small print is at odds with the large print in the advertised feature? My travel agent didn't tell me when I booked & it's too late or too expensive to change the holiday.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 31, 2015, 01:42:52 AM
I have posted this before from a parent who has actually used the listening service ... and I must say given the wealth of literature on the internet advertising holidays ... not just with Mark Warner ... with a listening service, I am finding this whole discussion bizarre in the extreme. Is there a parallel universe out there and a parallel internet??
Mumsnet Talk
Ems, we went to Paleros last year, and had such a great time that we're going again next year. The child-care was great, our 3yo went sailing, ice cream trips, swimming in a really neat childs pool - all with the Mini Club that he was in. Meals for kids were really great, they serve tea at around 5pm, with lots of kids favorites to eat.
Then the baby listening started at 8pm.
The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you. We were called twice, and both times they had obviously heard him as soon as he woke up, as by the time we got to him he hadn't really noticed that we weren't in the room.
How old are your kids? I think that if they are over 3, and used to being left that they would really enjoy it. We really liked the adults food too, plenty of choice, drinkable wine, good company. (If you are used to eating in very posh restaurants, then maybe you wouldn't like the food, but.....). It was the first holiday since I've had my son that I actually felt relaxed at the end of it. They also had a 24 hour kitchen that was stocked with Mothercare sterilisers, milk, kettle and bottled water. All the cots and cot linen were Mothercare, all the toys were 'known' brands and looked very clean and looked after. If you have any specific questions - post again. p.s. my friend went at the end of the season and said that all the staff were a bit 'jaded', we went at the end of June and they were super keen, and very attentive. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/198-anyone-been-to-mark-warner-in-lemnos
Brietta, those posts are dated 2001- 2. I'm amazed they're near the top of the google index.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on October 31, 2015, 01:58:42 AM
Brietta, those posts are dated 2001- 2. I'm amazed they're near the top of the google index.
Thanks Misty. Right at the top. I went with the following ... as you can see the dates here don't tally with the actual dates of the discussion ...
Anyone been to Mark Warner in Lemnos | Mumsnet Discussion
www.mumsnet.com › Topics › Travel advice 30 Mar 2009 - How sad that Ro seems to have a less than glowing report for Mark Warner Lemnos ... For tired parents with young children who need a holiday it's ideal, one can ..... Baby listening service worked well, they really do check your door every 15 ...
Anyone done a mark warner with kids? 14 Apr 2009
Baby listening 8 Nov 2008 Has anyone been to Mark Warner - Lakitira, Kos/Greece Resort ...17 Oct 2008 Anyone got any experience of SN children and Mark Warner ... 10 Oct 2008
More results from www.mumsnet.com
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 31, 2015, 02:10:10 AM
Thanks Misty. Right at the top. I went with the following ... as you can see the dates here don't tally with the actual dates of the discussion ...
Anyone been to Mark Warner in Lemnos | Mumsnet Discussion
www.mumsnet.com › Topics › Travel advice 30 Mar 2009 - How sad that Ro seems to have a less than glowing report for Mark Warner Lemnos ... For tired parents with young children who need a holiday it's ideal, one can ..... Baby listening service worked well, they really do check your door every 15 ...
Anyone done a mark warner with kids? 14 Apr 2009
Baby listening 8 Nov 2008 Has anyone been to Mark Warner - Lakitira, Kos/Greece Resort ...17 Oct 2008 Anyone got any experience of SN children and Mark Warner ... 10 Oct 2008
More results from www.mumsnet.com
It is apparent that MW are no longer offering a Room-Listening Service but they are being very crafty with their advertising, Here's something worth a read - and pretty much on a par with what still goes on today in the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on October 31, 2015, 12:16:31 PM
I have posted this before from a parent who has actually used the listening service ... and I must say given the wealth of literature on the internet advertising holidays ... not just with Mark Warner ... with a listening service, I am finding this whole discussion bizarre in the extreme. Is there a parallel universe out there and a parallel internet??
Mumsnet Talk
Ems, we went to Paleros last year, and had such a great time that we're going again next year. The child-care was great, our 3yo went sailing, ice cream trips, swimming in a really neat childs pool - all with the Mini Club that he was in. Meals for kids were really great, they serve tea at around 5pm, with lots of kids favorites to eat.
Then the baby listening started at 8pm.
The staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins and listen at the door, if your child is making a noise they stay at the door and radio through to the control Nanny - who sends someone to find you. We were called twice, and both times they had obviously heard him as soon as he woke up, as by the time we got to him he hadn't really noticed that we weren't in the room.
How old are your kids? I think that if they are over 3, and used to being left that they would really enjoy it. We really liked the adults food too, plenty of choice, drinkable wine, good company. (If you are used to eating in very posh restaurants, then maybe you wouldn't like the food, but.....). It was the first holiday since I've had my son that I actually felt relaxed at the end of it. They also had a 24 hour kitchen that was stocked with Mothercare sterilisers, milk, kettle and bottled water. All the cots and cot linen were Mothercare, all the toys were 'known' brands and looked very clean and looked after. If you have any specific questions - post again. p.s. my friend went at the end of the season and said that all the staff were a bit 'jaded', we went at the end of June and they were super keen, and very attentive. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/198-anyone-been-to-mark-warner-in-lemnos
I notice the link posted was to comments from 2001 so before Madeleine's disappeance.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
It is apparent that MW are no longer offering a Room-Listening Service but they are being very crafty with their advertising, Here's something worth a read - and pretty much on a par with what still goes on today in the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml
But Misty the amateur creche you are supporting had a carer to child ratio of ... minus infinity
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on October 31, 2015, 08:04:39 PM
A person who had actually used a MW room-listening service back then: "the staff walk around the rooms every 15 mins"
Another person who had actually used a MW room-listening service back then: "they really do check your door every 15 minutes"
One of the nine tourists who had never ever in their whole lives used a MW room-listening service: "at the other resorts that we've been to I believe they do it every thirty minutes, as I say we actually haven't used that service when we've been but you know the friends who have they've, they've said it's around thirty minutes."
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 31, 2015, 08:07:47 PM
Pamela Fenn - 75 minutes without checking.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on October 31, 2015, 08:13:44 PM
The report emphasises the importance of carer:child ratio Misty.
Did you miss this part? ----
" At Mark Warner, the BBC reporter was asked to accompany and supervise young children on a sailing trip without enough safety helmets for all the children, and take young children into the water without any assessment of her swimming ability. Also, at the Mark Warner resort in Egypt, a room listening service designed to check on children every 30 minutes whilst their parents are out, was found to be inappropriate because the staff could only listen at the door – they couldn't see if the children were all right or go into the rooms. Indeed, a Mark Warner nanny told the BBC undercover journalist that before the journalist arrived in April 07, a girl under the age of five had escaped through the window of a room and was found wandering around the complex within metres of the pool."
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on October 31, 2015, 08:57:01 PM
http://www.markwarner.co.uk/sun-holidays/greece/lemnos-beach/childcare Click on "free evening activities" Read the bit about the "Supervised Evening Listening Service"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 01, 2015, 03:11:15 AM
From BBC program: "... staff could only listen at the door – they couldn't see if the children were all right or go into the rooms ..."
@Misty During restaurant dinners these 5 evenings Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu there must have been at least 4 checks per evening so in total about 20 checks of this child back at the apartment. How many of those 20 odd checks were visual (checker actually sees child)?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 01, 2015, 03:14:47 AM
Yes, surprised no one had a go at her for not checking!!
Do you know who did check eventually Merc?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 01, 2015, 03:24:21 AM
From BBC program, about a resort in Egypt "a girl under the age of five had escaped through the window of a room and was found wandering around the complex within metres of the pool." Precisely Misty, this highlights the possibility that a home-alone child may possibly go to look for the parents if the child thinks they are nearby. Did the child in PDL know the parents were only 90 metres walk away at the Tapas restaurant?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 06:37:52 AM
From BBC program, about a resort in Egypt "a girl under the age of five had escaped through the window of a room and was found wandering around the complex within metres of the pool." Precisely Misty, this highlights the possibility that a home-alone child may possibly go to look for the parents if the child thinks they are nearby. Did the child in PDL know the parents were only 90 metres walk away at the Tapas restaurant?
Obviously any hiccups such as the above are kept quiet by these companies if possible. The parents probably got a refund on the price of their holiday. I would guess that the companies may have some small print somewhere too, along the lines of 'at your own risk'. They're mad if they don't, given the risks.
Perhaps the parents answered Madeleine on Thursday morning by telling her where they were and that the patio door wasn't locked? They wouldn't admit to that publicly obviously. That would explain Kate's discomfort about the open door that evening as reported by her friends.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2015, 10:43:32 AM
Thanks Misty. Right at the top. I went with the following ... as you can see the dates here don't tally with the actual dates of the discussion ...
Anyone been to Mark Warner in Lemnos | Mumsnet Discussion
www.mumsnet.com › Topics › Travel advice 30 Mar 2009 - How sad that Ro seems to have a less than glowing report for Mark Warner Lemnos ... For tired parents with young children who need a holiday it's ideal, one can ..... Baby listening service worked well, they really do check your door every 15 ...
Anyone done a mark warner with kids? 14 Apr 2009
Baby listening 8 Nov 2008 Has anyone been to Mark Warner - Lakitira, Kos/Greece Resort ...17 Oct 2008 Anyone got any experience of SN children and Mark Warner ... 10 Oct 2008
More results from www.mumsnet.com
Ofcourse, thi s is all by the by because paretns have the FULL responsibility for their children no one else. If yu take your child to Disneyland and they trip over a piee of paper wo's fault is that? Disneys? the person who left the paper on the ground, the child for not looking where he/she was going?
Lawyers would argue Disney because they have cash! Parent should always risk assess on behalf of their child.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on November 01, 2015, 11:00:24 AM
TOPIC. PLURLEASE.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2015, 11:18:44 AM
oh.. and oops I have a bandage on my poor lil hand >cliff walking! 8()-000(
back on topic...
The parents were responsible for their childs safety. They were not close enough and could not see the apartment doors or windows where the children slept and as has been shown, their child minding baby listening service did not work. no matter how many nights before it did work....
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on November 01, 2015, 12:12:29 PM
From BBC program, about a resort in Egypt "a girl under the age of five had escaped through the window of a room and was found wandering around the complex within metres of the pool." Precisely Misty, this highlights the possibility that a home-alone child may possibly go to look for the parents if the child thinks they are nearby. Did the child in PDL know the parents were only 90 metres walk away at the Tapas restaurant?
What it actually highlights is that MW Listening Service was no better than the checking service done by the McCanns themselves. Had the child in Egypt drowned in the pool, would we still be speaking about his/her "negligent" parents even one year on? Of course not. Legally, a listening service is OK. It's OK if someone is patrolling a round route of 800m in a 15-20min period and only listening at each designated window once, briefly, during each round. So why isn't it OK for a parent to be no more than 50-100m away & return to the room to perform a more adequate check? I don't believe Madeleine did know where her parents were eating. Had she done, she wouldn't have settled down to sleep imo.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 01, 2015, 12:58:54 PM
What it actually highlights is that MW Listening Service was no better than the checking service done by the McCanns themselves. Had the child in Egypt drowned in the pool, would we still be speaking about his/her "negligent" parents even one year on? Of course not. Legally, a listening service is OK. It's OK if someone is patrolling a round route of 800m in a 15-20min period and only listening at each designated window once, briefly, during each round. So why isn't it OK for a parent to be no more than 50-100m away & return to the room to perform a more adequate check? I don't believe Madeleine did know where her parents were eating. Had she done, she wouldn't have settled down to sleep imo.
reply to red quote,
Why leave the door unlocked? The service the McCANNS provided has evidenced it was bad. If MW had an even better service then leaving the door unlocked would still result in the same? would windows still be jemmied? would there have been a different outcome?
The parents didn't hear shutters /windows being jemmied The parents didn't see or hear an abductor
because they were too far away and out of sight and earshot. Is this still being debated?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 01:34:43 PM
Why leave the door unlocked? The service the McCANNS provided has evidenced it was bad. If MW had an even better service then leaving the door unlocked would still result in the same? would windows still be jemmied? would there have been a different outcome?
The parents didn't hear shutters /windows being jemmied The parents didn't see or hear an abductor
because they were too far away and out of sight and earshot. Is this still being debated?
No matter how many official listening services are debated, the fact remains there wasn't one at the Ocean Club because it was deemed unsuitable. Consequently the safety of the McCann children rested with the McCann parents. If someone took their child the fact that the parents didn't make adequate provision was a contributing factor. Had they stayed in, used the night creche or hired a baby-sitter all their children would have been safe. If someone had broken in while the parents slept they wouldn't have contributed unless they had failed to secure the windows and doors. If someone had entered using a key while they slept Mark Warner would have been resposible for not safeguarding the spare keys.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Eleanor on November 01, 2015, 01:47:13 PM
No matter how many official listening services are debated, the fact remains there wasn't one at the Ocean Club because it was deemed unsuitable. Consequently the safety of the McCann children rested with the McCann parents. If someone took their child the fact that the parents didn't make adequate provision was a contributing factor. Had they stayed in, used the night creche or hired a baby-sitter all their children would have been safe. If someone had broken in while the parents slept they wouldn't have contributed unless they had failed to secure the windows and doors. If someone had entered using a key while they slept Mark Warner would have been resposible for not safeguarding the spare keys.
Good on ya. Castigate them for the rest of their miserable lives. And I hope that you feel really good about yourself.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 01, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
... If someone had entered using a key while they slept Mark Warner would have been resposible for not safeguarding the spare keys.
The key system in use was mechanical keys that can be copied. Hence a copy not under the control of MW could have existed before MW took over the OC. I have no evidence to prove this happened, merely that it is a possibility.
I have been in other facilities in Luz where control is by an electronic key card. This can be changed every time a customer departs, rendering the old key card useless.
To reach the same level of security, MW would need to replace the lock and key after each visit.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 01, 2015, 02:07:46 PM
Why leave the door unlocked? The service the McCANNS provided has evidenced it was bad. If MW had an even better service then leaving the door unlocked would still result in the same? would windows still be jemmied? would there have been a different outcome?
The parents didn't hear shutters /windows being jemmied The parents didn't see or hear an abductor
because they were too far away and out of sight and earshot. Is this still being debated?
Why indeed when Fiona said they had been using the key door to check. She was shocked to be told the patio door was unlocked just before Maddy disappeared. Now they've got witnesses before the fact knowing it was unlocked &%+((£ Gerry said it changed because the key lock was loud and may wake the children but his first statement also said he used the same key door. Nothing could wake the twins that night.
"I can't remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm, and they didn't wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren't their parents, they didn't, they didn't wake up." (FP)
And Kate didn't demand they be tested &%+((£
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 02:36:16 PM
Why indeed when Fiona said they had been using the key door to check. She was shocked to be told the patio door was unlocked just before Maddy disappeared. Now they've got witnesses before the fact knowing it was unlocked &%+((£ Gerry said it changed because the key lock was loud and may wake the children but his first statement also said he used the same key door. Nothing could wake the twins that night.
"I can't remember who carried up Sean and Amelie. Erm, and we sat on the sofa, me and Kate with the twins asleep on us for a while, erm, and they didn't wake up and, again, that was quite strange, even in the transfer and, and being handled by people that weren't their parents, they didn't, they didn't wake up." (FP)
And Kate didn't demand they be tested &%+((£
Quite. Fiona was shocked to hear that the door was left open. The Wilkin's were surprised to hear the children were being left as they thought G5A was vulnerable.
They expressed surprise over this as the McCanns apartment was set in a location that appeared vulnerable. They were aware that the apartment was a corner building and with easy access from the road. The apartments were not very secure and entry could easily be gained. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY_BRIGET.htm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 02:43:06 PM
Good on ya. Castigate them for the rest of their miserable lives. And I hope that you feel really good about yourself.
Perhaps if we all agreed to change our sig lines to: "shame on the McCanns for being such neglectful parents, they deserve everything they get" we could move on from the neglect issue and it wouldn't be something we have to debate for the rest of all eternity.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 01, 2015, 02:54:46 PM
Perhaps if we all agreed to change our sig lines to: "shame on the McCanns for being such neglectful parents, they deserve everything they get" we could move on from the neglect issue and it wouldn't be something we have to debate for the rest of all eternity.
Neglect made everyone a suspect but you don't need to chase shadows to discover the truth.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 02:58:39 PM
Good on ya. Castigate them for the rest of their miserable lives. And I hope that you feel really good about yourself.
I haven't 'castigated' the McCanns. You are implying criticism where none exists. If the McCanns weren't responsible for keeping their children safe who was? No matter how many pages are written excusing the parent's actions it doesn't change the fact that their absence allowed the possibility of a child abduction.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 03:03:44 PM
Perhaps if we all agreed to change our sig lines to: "shame on the McCanns for being such neglectful parents, they deserve everything they get" we could move on from the neglect issue and it wouldn't be something we have to debate for the rest of all eternity.
Maybe some people should change their sigs to 'We know the parents were less than careful with their children's safety'. Others could then stop pointing out that fact every time someone attempts to excuse or explain their actions that week?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 03:04:14 PM
I haven't 'castigated' the McCanns. You are implying criticism where none exists. If the McCanns weren't responsible for keeping their children safe who was? No matter how many pages are written excusing the parent's actions it doesn't change the fact that their absence allowed the possibility of a child abduction.
so even when it's been definitively determined that Madeleine was abducted you'll still be able to blame them - great news for you and fellow "sceptics", eh?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 03:05:04 PM
Maybe some people should change their sigs to 'We know the parents were less than careful with their children's safety'. Others could then stop pointing out that fact every time someone attempts to excuse or explain their actions that week?
would that work do you think? I'm willing to give it a try...
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 04:15:44 PM
so even when it's been definitively determined that Madeleine was abducted you'll still be able to blame them - great news for you and fellow "sceptics", eh?
It's simple if you believe there was an abduction. It's such a terrible crime that the parent's behaviour pales into insignificance. I wonder how people would have viewed their behaviour if one of the children had got out of bed and stuck their fingers into an electricity socket, or got a knife and cut themselves, or taken an overdose? Abduction was not the only danger to consider when leaving children alone.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 01, 2015, 04:46:38 PM
If Kate did not scream for Gerry from the rear patio was it because she thought the distance was too far?
So if one or more children had made it to the patio screaming, does this mean it was to far for the T9 to have heard?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 05:52:56 PM
It's simple if you believe there was an abduction. It's such a terrible crime that the parent's behaviour pales into insignificance. I wonder how people would have viewed their behaviour if one of the children had got out of bed and stuck their fingers into an electricity socket, or got a knife and cut themselves, or taken an overdose? Abduction was not the only danger to consider when leaving children alone.
My opinion in such a circumstance would be the same. What idiots, I would think, but then I would remember that I wasn't 100% perfect either and I would keep my opinion to myself as I don't see how being eternally publicly judgmental about others' failings or stupidity helps anyone, and ends up actually seeming rather cruel in the circumstances. All IMO of course.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 01, 2015, 05:54:32 PM
My opinion in such a circumstance would be the same. What idiots, I would think, but then I would remember that I wasn't 100% perfect either and I would keep my opinion to myself as I don't see how being eternally publicly judgmental about others' failings or stupidity helps anyone, and ends up actually seeming rather cruel in the circumstances. All IMO of course.
'I would keep my opinion to myself' @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 06:00:56 PM
If Kate did not scream for Gerry from the rear patio was it because she thought the distance was too far?
So if one or more children had made it to the patio screaming, does this mean it was to far for the T9 to have heard?
She screamed from the balcony later, as a Tapas waiter reported. However, given what was happening maybe the Tapas had become quieter. Wasn't music usually played in there?
After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5 A. He did not understand what she was saying. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 06:08:52 PM
My opinion in such a circumstance would be the same. What idiots, I would think, but then I would remember that I wasn't 100% perfect either and I would keep my opinion to myself as I don't see how being eternally publicly judgmental about others' failings or stupidity helps anyone, and ends up actually seeming rather cruel in the circumstances. All IMO of course.
You do think they were idiots then? I only refer their failings because others seem to be in complete denial about them. Some people on here seem determined to paint them as responsible intelligent people and I can't go along with that and say nothing. I'm speaking to those people, not the McCanns.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 06:15:13 PM
You do think they were idiots then? I only refer their failings because others seem to be in complete denial about them. Some people on here seem determined to paint them as responsible intelligent people and I can't go along with that and say nothing. I'm speaking to those people, not the McCanns.
i prefer not to publicly and repeatedly castigate people who have suffered greatly as a result of their own foolish actions. This may be a problem for some, but that's just the way I am.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 06:18:52 PM
You do think they were idiots then? I only refer their failings because others seem to be in complete denial about them. Some people on here seem determined to paint them as responsible intelligent people and I can't go along with that and say nothing. I'm speaking to those people, not the McCanns.
I see the mccanns as responsible....no one would have expected an abduction.......they and maddie were terribly unlucky...simple as that. If you continue to castigate the mccanns and question their intelligence I will continue to support them
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 01, 2015, 06:20:22 PM
i prefer not to publicly and repeatedly castigate people who have suffered greatly as a result of their own foolish actions. This may be a problem for some, but that's just the way I am.
So you come here to castigate the castigators ?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 06:21:48 PM
I come here to challenge your (collective) views, which to me are sometimes quite bafflingly illogical and often incredibly judgmental and snide. You are able to defend yourselves and challenge back, unlike those who are the main object of your scrutiny and criticism.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 07:12:56 PM
I come here to challenge your (collective) views, which to me are sometimes quite bafflingly illogical and often incredibly judgmental and snide. You are able to defend yourselves and challenge back, unlike those who are the main object of your scrutiny and criticism.
Bafflingly illogical alfred ?
To the contrary, many people find it totally baffling why certain parties come on here to defend the mccanns, no matter what.
As to the mccanns 'not using social media', is that an established fact or merely hearsay ?
It is already known they have 'associates' monitoring the internet on their behalf.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 07:31:46 PM
To the contrary, many people find it totally baffling why certain parties come on here to defend the mccanns, no matter what.
As to the mccanns 'not using social media', is that an established fact or merely hearsay ?
It is already known they have 'associates' monitoring the internet on their behalf.
I wonder if the McCanns are grateful to all those who stick up for them on the internet? Some of the things their say to others are pretty abusive imo. I've been called stupid, snide, a Jesuit (? I know!) and cruel just to name a few of the things they've called me.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2015, 07:38:49 PM
To the contrary, many people find it totally baffling why certain parties come on here to defend the mccanns, no matter what.
As to the mccanns 'not using social media', is that an established fact or merely hearsay ?
It is already known they have 'associates' monitoring the internet on their behalf.
Good grief - you actually find it ''totally baffling'' that there are people who agree with the police forces of two countries who have ruled the McCanns out of the investigation - rather than agree with armchair detectives who only have some of the info to go on - no access to anyone involved in the case - and no expertise in policework? Now that really is baffling IMO.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 07:41:24 PM
Good grief - you actually find it ''totally baffling'' that there are people who agree with the police forces of two countries who have ruled the McCanns out of the investigation - rather than agree with armchair detectives who only have some of the info to go on - no access to anyone involved in the case - and no expertise in policework? Now that really is baffling IMO.
Totally baffling, hardly my dear.
Can you point me to any evidence which proves abduction ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 01, 2015, 07:43:08 PM
Good grief - you actually find it ''totally baffling'' that there are people who agree with the police forces of two countries who have ruled the McCanns out of the investigation - rather than agree with armchair detectives who only have some of the info to go on - no access to anyone involved in the case - and no expertise in policework? Now that really is baffling IMO.
Allegedly.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 07:45:24 PM
I wonder if the McCanns are grateful to all those who stick up for them on the internet? Some of the things their say to others are pretty abusive imo. I've been called stupid, snide, a Jesuit (? I know!) and cruel just to name a few of the things they've called me.
I have noticed distinct patterns in behaviour of the dedicated mccann supporters.
Your experiences G-Unit appear to be par for the course.
As evidenced by benice's post, they try to question the rationality of those who question the abduction story. I find it so predictable and mildly amusing, when the pattern of personalized attack is rolled out.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 01, 2015, 07:46:13 PM
I come here to challenge your (collective) views, which to me are sometimes quite bafflingly illogical and often incredibly judgmental and snide. You are able to defend yourselves and challenge back, unlike those who are the main object of your scrutiny and criticism.
If the McCanns wished they could join here.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 07:54:23 PM
I have noticed distinct patterns in behaviour of the dedicated mccann supporters.
Your experiences G-Unit appear to be par for the course.
As evidenced by benice's post, they try to question the rationality of those who question the abduction story. I find it so predictable and mildly amusing, when the pattern of personalized attack is rolled out.
Hilarious considering you can barely make a post without including some sneering comment about anyone who doesn't share your views. In fact slagging off the McCanns and anyone who supports them appears to be your main reason for posting.
Getting you to join in reasonable debate is like pulling teeth in my experience. Many have tried but none have succeeded - because you are only interested in personally abusing people for disagreeing with you and have no interest in discussing their views imo.
I expect this post to be zapped - and that's fine by me. But the sheer irony of your claims needed to be pointed out.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 08:28:55 PM
Hilarious considering you can barely make a post without including some sneering comment about anyone who doesn't share your views. In fact slagging off the McCanns and anyone who supports them appears to be your main reason for posting.
Getting you to join in reasonable debate is like pulling teeth in my experience. Many have tried but none have succeeded - because you are only interested in personally abusing people for disagreeing with you and have no interest in discussing their views imo.
I expect this post to be zapped - and that's fine by me. But the sheer irony of your claims needed to be pointed out.
seconded...Stephen even abuses posters here whilst posting on another forum
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 08:31:37 PM
Hilarious considering you can barely make a post without including some sneering comment about anyone who doesn't share your views. In fact slagging off the McCanns and anyone who supports them appears to be your main reason for posting.
Getting you to join in reasonable debate is like pulling teeth in my experience. Many have tried but none have succeeded - because you are only interested in personally abusing people for disagreeing with you and have no interest in discussing their views imo.
I expect this post to be zapped - and that's fine by me. But the sheer irony of your claims needed to be pointed out.
Reasonable debate benice ?
Your not interested in that at all, unless of course it is swallowing the abduction and praising the mccanns.
The true irony, is of course, mccann supporters like you, enjoy personally attacking other posters, then run like frightened rabbits, when you get a taste of it yourself.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 08:33:39 PM
Your not interested in that at all, unless of course it is swallowing the abduction and praising the mccanns.
The true irony, is of course, mccann supporters like you, enjoy personally attacking other posters, then run like frightened rabbits, when you get a taste of it yourself.
Really? You debate? Cite, please.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 08:37:06 PM
I wonder if the McCanns are grateful to all those who stick up for them on the internet? Some of the things their say to others are pretty abusive imo. I've been called stupid, snide, a Jesuit (? I know!) and cruel just to name a few of the things they've called me.
having your some of your posts described as snide and cruel is not abusive, it's simply stating the obvious IMO. Being called a w a n k e r and a tosser and a dick is a different matter though I would say, all names I have been called on this forum, so be thankful the worse you got called was a Jesuit! @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on November 01, 2015, 08:44:34 PM
You and your fellows ploys in attacking 'sceptics' are as predictable as the rising of the sun.
Yet you fail to post any sort of counter argument regarding what 29 Met Officers & a Portuguese task force have been investigating for the last 3 years. Perhaps you should be congratulating the McCanns on outwitting the best, now all efforts to date to convict them have failed. Never mind about Madeleine.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 09:01:17 PM
Yet you fail to post any sort of counter argument regarding what 29 Met Officers & a Portuguese task force have been investigating for the last 3 years. Perhaps you should be congratulating the McCanns on outwitting the best, now all efforts to date to convict them have failed. Never mind about Madeleine.
The investigating officers have failed to find anything at all.
All that money wasted on a one sided investigation.
You seem to forget that one rather obvious point.
You do also realize a conviction takes place through a court, don't you ?
and I don't expect that to happen anymore than an abductor will be found. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on November 01, 2015, 09:07:01 PM
The investigating officers have failed to find anything at all.
All that money wasted on a one sided investigation.
You seem to forget that one rather obvious point.
You do also realize a conviction takes place through a court, don't you ?
and I don't expect that to happen anymore than an abductor will be found. 8)-)))
The reports I read said the Met were focusing on a few definite leads. They have a clear idea of the situation on the ground leading up to the disappearance. The PJ are unusually quiet. It's not over until the fat lady sings and right now she's not even in the room.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 09:09:13 PM
The reports I read said the Met were focusing on a few definite leads. They have a clear idea of the situation on the ground leading up to the disappearance. The PJ are unusually quiet. It's not over until the fat lady sings and right now she's not even in the room.
The announcement from SY was full of meaningless cliches.
They are no further on in solving this case as was the case over 8 years ago.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 09:14:10 PM
People spend hours speaking for them. The media, Clarence Mitchell, 'sauces', family and friends, those on here and elsewhere who support them. Why not speak for themselves? It would be most interesting.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 01, 2015, 09:50:21 PM
People spend hours speaking for them. The media, Clarence Mitchell, 'sauces', family and friends, those on here and elsewhere who support them. Why not speak for themselves? It would be most interesting.
to anonymous abusive trolls.....there are those on here
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 10:08:02 PM
People spend hours speaking for them. The media, Clarence Mitchell, 'sauces', family and friends, those on here and elsewhere who support them. Why not speak for themselves? It would be most interesting.
Perhaps because their every word is forensically examined, then put through the "sceptic" spin machine and finally flung back in their faces as evidence of their supposed lies and guilt.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 01, 2015, 10:14:52 PM
having your some of your posts described as snide and cruel is not abusive, it's simply stating the obvious IMO. Being called a w a n k e r and a tosser and a dick is a different matter though I would say, all names I have been called on this forum, so be thankful the worse you got called was a Jesuit! @)(++(*
Yes very thankful when compared to your and yiur non sceptic communitys abuses ie calling people sutcliffe supporters...blind hypocrite of the extreme
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 01, 2015, 10:20:46 PM
The reports I read said the Met were focusing on a few definite leads. They have a clear idea of the situation on the ground leading up to the disappearance. The PJ are unusually quiet. It's not over until the fat lady sings and right now she's not even in the room.
Not according to an article linked by Brietta a few days ago:
"Speaking to The Portugal News on Wednesday, a Portuguese police source said that while there are “about two or three other cases of missing children in Portugal, but we have a reasonable understanding of who might be responsible for their disappearance. However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”, saying that this a feature of the case that will keep it alive here even if the case into her disappearance were to one day be shelved".
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 01, 2015, 10:30:29 PM
I think they probably have quite enough shit in their lives to have to deal with, without signing up here for you to add to it.
Shit that they created...and if youre in the public eye youre always fair game if it comes to it
Simples
Your contnuous insistence and attacks that everyone should shut up is going nowhere, never has been, never will be, whatever the subject, people dont like book burners and mouth shutters
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 01, 2015, 10:33:22 PM
The parents according to mrs fenn but a strange coule who went in to sooth her according to some recent newspaper article, no idea who they were supposed to be
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 01, 2015, 10:57:20 PM
Not according to an article linked by Brietta a few days ago:
"Speaking to The Portugal News on Wednesday, a Portuguese police source said that while there are “about two or three other cases of missing children in Portugal, but we have a reasonable understanding of who might be responsible for their disappearance. However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”, saying that this a feature of the case that will keep it alive here even if the case into her disappearance were to one day be shelved".
Definitely an interesting link.
About?? ... one would have thought a Portuguese police source would have been more precise and have been able to state exactly how many missing children there are in Portugal.
I think the rather obvious explanation may be that perhaps the cases referred to may involve custody disputes in which there is firm evidence leading to the belief that one parent or the other has made off with the child. Which perhaps is why they appear to be laid back about these missing children.
As far as Madeleine is concerned, that is not applicable. If the police had a satisfactory explanation ... the case would be solved.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 01, 2015, 11:01:16 PM
That doesn't alter the fact that contrary to your claim the McCanns have every opportunity to defend themselves.
No they don't, not unless you believe they are gluttons for punishment, or mental.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 01, 2015, 11:06:46 PM
I seem to recall Martin Grime was invited to join this forum to explain himself and his dog alerts but chose not to claiming, judicial secrecy or some such. I guess the same would apply to the McCanns too, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 01, 2015, 11:08:38 PM
I seem to recall Martin Grime was invited to join this forum to explain himself and his dog alerts but chose not to claiming, judicial secrecy or some such. I guess the same would apply to the McCanns too, wouldn't it?
Not at all the correlation is extremely laughable by any stretch
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 01, 2015, 11:31:13 PM
so even when it's been definitively determined that Madeleine was abducted you'll still be able to blame them - great news for you and fellow "sceptics", eh?
Mr bucketman
How sad peurile uneducated poor and sour is that.? Shivers
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 02, 2015, 01:32:59 AM
Good grief - you actually find it ''totally baffling'' that there are people who agree with the police forces of two countries who have ruled the McCanns out of the investigation - rather than agree with armchair detectives who only have some of the info to go on - no access to anyone involved in the case - and no expertise in policework? Now that really is baffling IMO.
People defended the mccanns so called childcare arrangements from 2007 , thats years and years before the portuguese reopened the enquiry and years after SY got involved....so your post is erroneous....as is also the statement that both police forces have ruled the mccanns out...you have no evidence which supports that, ok? Good, best stick to facts at all times
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 01:47:53 AM
Fact is, the restaurant was ninety metres walk from the childrens bedroom.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on November 02, 2015, 02:14:18 AM
Fact is, the restaurant was ninety metres walk from the childrens bedroom.
As we have already demonstrated, MW Listening services in use elsewhere at the time of the McCanns holiday were legal but not perfect. It is reasonable to assume that the service extended beyond 90m of a designated apartment at any given time. The only issue is the unlocked patio door - but that was not visible or advertised to a random passer-by. BTW - how many burglars break in through a window without first checking the doors?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 06:50:09 AM
As we have already demonstrated, MW Listening services in use elsewhere at the time of the McCanns holiday were legal but not perfect. It is reasonable to assume that the service extended beyond 90m of a designated apartment at any given time. The only issue is the unlocked patio door - but that was not visible or advertised to a random passer-by. BTW - how many burglars break in through a window without first checking the doors?
Are you still attempting to compare the group's childcare arrangements with services offered elsewhere? Fallacious argument, this site wasn't suitable, that's why the service wasn't offered here. The unlocked patio door was extremely dangerous when small children could exit onto a death trap like that balcony.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 07:37:12 AM
I'm thinking of the mod who called them shit parents....that's the standard of the forum. Anyone who thinks it would be reasonable for the mccanns to come on here is way out of touch with reality
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 02, 2015, 08:14:34 AM
People defended the mccanns so called childcare arrangements from 2007 , thats years and years before the portuguese reopened the enquiry and years after SY got involved....so your post is erroneous....as is also the statement that both police forces have ruled the mccanns out...you have no evidence which supports that, ok? Good, best stick to facts at all times
So in your eyes, SY in the form of DCI Redwood, publicly stating that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or persons of interest in this case is 'erroneous' and is not evidence that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or persons of interest in this case? Really?
That may be your idea of 'sticking to the facts' - but it's certainly not mine.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 08:56:46 AM
Fact is, the restaurant was ninety metres walk from the childrens bedroom.
Fact is ... whether the eighty paces distance counted by Martin Brunt which it was said was possible to traverse in less than a minute ... the factor not considered in a risk assessment for the children was that an abductor would enter the premises and steal a child.
Even after the event the authorities did not take this into consideration till some time had elapsed.
They did not know about home invasions and attacks on children while their parents slept, making distance a bit of an irrelevance.
They made a huge mistake and said so right from the very beginning. "We've let her down!". So why labour the point? the only possible reason I can see for it is as a convenient rod for the Drs McCann backs.
Isn't it about time it was realised that enough is enough and wish this family a positive outcome.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 09:06:34 AM
I'm thinking of the mod who called them shit parents....that's the standard of the forum. Anyone who thinks it would be reasonable for the mccanns to come on here is way out of touch with reality
Cite? what do those who get 'watched' do wrong then? Are they innocent and misunderstood perchance?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 09:24:00 AM
Fact is ... whether the eighty paces distance counted by Martin Brunt which it was said was possible to traverse in less than a minute ... the factor not considered in a risk assessment for the children was that an abductor would enter the premises and steal a child.
Even after the event the authorities did not take this into consideration till some time had elapsed.
They did not know about home invasions and attacks on children while their parents slept, making distance a bit of an irrelevance.
They made a huge mistake and said so right from the very beginning. "We've let her down!". So why labour the point? the only possible reason I can see for it is as a convenient rod for the Drs McCann backs.
Isn't it about time it was realised that enough is enough and wish this family a positive outcome.
It has yet to be proved that an abductor entered G5A and stole a child, so it's not actually relevant. The child wandering and/or having an accident are just as possible. People don't hire babysitters just to stave off abductions, they hire them because small children shouldn't be left home alone.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2015, 09:44:01 AM
It has yet to be proved that an abductor entered G5A and stole a child, so it's not actually relevant. The child wandering and/or having an accident are just as possible. People don't hire babysitters just to stave off abductions, they hire them because small children shouldn't be left home alone.
That's the key element that mccann supporters can't or won't admit.
No proof of abduction.
Quite happy to say no proof of accidental death or Madeleine walking out of the apartment and disappearing though.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 09:44:45 AM
/ Cite? what do those who get 'watched' do wrong then? Are they innocent and misunderstood perchance?
we don't need a cite...angelo has repeated it several times and I'm sure will be happy to confirm...then we have posters calling them thick...liars...anyone who thinks it would be reasonable to expect the mccanns to post on here is barmy
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 09:46:01 AM
we don't need a cite...angelo has repeated it several times and I'm sure will be happy to confirm...then we have posters calling them thick...liars...anyone who thinks it would be reasonable to expect the mccanns to post on here is barmy
I would imagine innocent people would be happy to answer any questions whatsoever.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 02, 2015, 10:20:01 AM
There is no forensic evidence to show an 'abductor'.
In fact there is b....r all.
That is why they haven't found Madeleine or how she disappeared.
Do keep up.
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that evidence of an abduction which may have been there - was possibly destroyed by the traffic of people/police/dogs through the apartment and by the less than perfect expertise of those collecting evidence - noted by Amaral himself?
To claim there was no evidence of an abduction is wrong - unless you can prove it never existed in the first place. Can you do that?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2015, 10:33:38 AM
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that evidence of an abduction which may have been there - was possibly destroyed by the traffic of people/police/dogs through the apartment and by the less than perfect expertise of those collecting evidence - noted by Amaral himself?
To claim there was no evidence of an abduction is wrong - unless you can prove it never existed in the first place. Can you do that?
Are you a bit slow, then what you said applies to ACCIDENTAL DEATH and the WALKING OUT OF THE APARTMENT.
8**8:/:
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 10:39:01 AM
I would imagine innocent people would be happy to answer any questions whatsoever.
are you crazy...you must be...you think it would be reasonable to expect the mcccanns to come on this forum and answer questions from any anonymous person...you must be absolutely mad ...a forum on which a moderator calls them shit parents
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 02, 2015, 11:08:33 AM
to anonymous abusive trolls.....there are those on here
People have been abusive to each other since there were human beings. The only difference these days is that it's anonymous on the internet. That allows some hate-filled, self deluding, faux intelligent, holier than thou people to vent their spleen on all and sundry without being identified, usually because they would be too cowardly to do it in their own names. That's why a reputable forum imposes penalties; to keep these people in order.
According to Bernard Hogan-Howe being abusive is just 'what happens in life'. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/p02789bx
The only time the police would be interested is if people were racist, threatening, or blackmailing; i.e. breaking the law.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 02, 2015, 11:14:45 AM
Are you a bit slow, then what you said applies to ACCIDENTAL DEATH and the WALKING OUT OF THE APARTMENT.
8**8:/:
I'll ignore your customary rudeness.
What has any of your reply got to do with my post? I asked if you had proof that no evidence of an abduction ever existed in the first place - which is what you appear to be constantly claiming. If you cannot provide proof - then you cannot rule out the possibility that evidence of an abduction did originally exist - but was destroyed by the traffic of people/police/dogs through 5A. Agreed?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2015, 11:18:55 AM
What has any of your reply got to do with my post? I asked if you had proof that no evidence of an abduction ever existed in the first place - which is what you appear to be constantly claiming. If you cannot provide proof - then you cannot rule out the possibility that evidence of an abduction did originally exist - but was destroyed by the traffic of people/police/dogs through 5A. Agreed?
There is a subtle difference between being rude and observant.
You and your fellows deny there is evidence of accidental death or Madeleine walking out of the apartment.
Your comments about abduction, should therefore be viewed in the same context.
i.e. You cannot prove there wasn't an accident or Madeleine walked out of the apartment and disappeared.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 11:26:12 AM
are you crazy...you must be...you think it would be reasonable to expect the mcccanns to come on this forum and answer questions from any anonymous person...you must be absolutely mad ...a forum on which a moderator calls them shit parents
A bit more name calling. I see. are you an abusive troll then?
How do you know they don't post anonymously on the internet? It's perfectly possible, although more likely imo that others do it on their behalf.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2015, 11:27:58 AM
Your comment was rude and uncalled for. Full stop.
However, it's my 'observation' that as per usual - you are not going to answer a perfectly simple and valid question put to you.
So nothing new there then.
You are, as per usual ignoring key points, though that is no surprise.
If you wish people to accept the possibility of abduction without evidence, then you have to accept the possibility of accidental death or walking out of the apartment.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 02, 2015, 11:55:08 AM
People have been abusive to each other since there were human beings. The only difference these days is that it's anonymous on the internet. That allows some hate-filled, self deluding, faux intelligent, holier than thou people to vent their spleen on all and sundry without being identified, usually because they would be too cowardly to do it in their own names. That's why a reputable forum imposes penalties; to keep these people in order.
According to Bernard Hogan-Howe being abusive is just 'what happens in life'. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/p02789bx
The only time the police would be interested is if people were racist, threatening, or blackmailing; i.e. breaking the law.
as I said you would have to be crazy to expect the mccanns to answer questions here
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 12:41:42 PM
Fact is ... whether the eighty paces distance counted by Martin Brunt which it was said was possible to traverse in less than a minute ... the factor not considered in a risk assessment for the children was that an abductor would enter the premises and steal a child.
Even after the event the authorities did not take this into consideration till some time had elapsed.
They did not know about home invasions and attacks on children while their parents slept, making distance a bit of an irrelevance.
They made a huge mistake and said so right from the very beginning. "We've let her down!". So why labour the point? the only possible reason I can see for it is as a convenient rod for the Drs McCann backs.
Isn't it about time it was realised that enough is enough and wish this family a positive outcome.
Mr Brunt measured the paces from the restaurant table to a garden gate.
I have carefully double-checked the PJ photos taken that night, and can assure you that the garden gate did not disappear!
The garden gate was not abducted, the garden gate did not hide in a wardrobe under some clothes due to a burglary attempt, nor did it unscrew its own hinges and wander into the street. Why all this concern for a garden gate? Why measure the distance to it - it's irrelevant. The child was in the north bedroom, much further away than the garden gate.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 02, 2015, 12:44:51 PM
You are, as per usual ignoring key points, though that is no surprise.
If you wish people to accept the possibility of abduction without evidence, then you have to accept the possibility of accidental death or walking out of the apartment.
IOW you are not going to answer my question - or even acknowledge that it has been asked!
Why a simple valid question should present such a problem to you - that you have to go into mega 'deflective' mode and pretend it doesn't exist rather than answer it - is inexplicable IMO.
But do carry on if it makes you happy.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 01:04:44 PM
Stop being silly Alfie, of course they do. Whether they would want to is a different matter entirely.
So the McCanns are currently at liberty to discuss the case with any manner of anonymous internet troll and harridan are they? You don't think Op Grange might frown on this?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
Mr Brunt measured the paces from the restaurant table to a garden gate.
I have carefully double-checked the PJ photos taken that night, and can assure you that the garden gate did not disappear!
The garden gate was not abducted, the garden gate did not hide in a wardrobe under some clothes due to a burglary attempt, nor did it unscrew its own hinges and wander into the street. Why all this concern for a garden gate? Why measure the distance to it - it's irrelevant. The child was in the north bedroom, much further away than the garden gate.
Madeleine McCann was within the boundaries of the property where strangers had no right of access and which should have been a safety zone for her. I'm not sure your reference to the gate does you any credit, but you are of course correct about the irrelevance of the whole discussion which has as usual been turned into yet another vehicle to denigrate Madeleine's parents.
So very, very tiresome.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 02, 2015, 01:31:30 PM
IOW you are not going to answer my question - or even acknowledge that it has been asked!
Why a simple valid question should present such a problem to you - that you have to go into mega 'deflective' mode and pretend it doesn't exist rather than answer it - is inexplicable IMO.
But do carry on if it makes you happy.
I have merely pointed out your hypocrisy.
i.e. Abduction or nothing. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 02:16:08 PM
What has any of your reply got to do with my post? I asked if you had proof that no evidence of an abduction ever existed in the first place - which is what you appear to be constantly claiming. If you cannot provide proof - then you cannot rule out the possibility that evidence of an abduction did originally exist - but was destroyed by the traffic of people/police/dogs through 5A. Agreed?
That is a fairly nonsensical argument, no evidence exists. To insinuate that it is acceptable or useful to consider non existent evidence as proof of anything is mind boggling.
You might as well point out that if someone else had been in 5a they would have been an eye witness.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 02:19:59 PM
That is a fairly nonsensical argument, no evidence exists. To insinuate that it is acceptable or useful to consider non existent evidence as proof of anything is mind boggling.
You might as well point out that if someone else had been in 5a they would have been an eye witness.
You might want to consider that argument the next time the bloody dog alerts are brought up.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 02:25:21 PM
That is a fairly nonsensical argument, no evidence exists. To insinuate that it is acceptable or useful to consider non existent evidence as proof of anything is mind boggling.
You might as well point out that if someone else had been in 5a they would have been an eye witness.
evidence does exist...as Redwood has pointed out....
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 02:29:53 PM
Fact is ... whether the eighty paces distance counted by Martin Brunt which it was said was possible to traverse in less than a minute ... the factor not considered in a risk assessment for the children was that an abductor would enter the premises and steal a child.
Even after the event the authorities did not take this into consideration till some time had elapsed.
They did not know about home invasions and attacks on children while their parents slept, making distance a bit of an irrelevance.
They made a huge mistake and said so right from the very beginning. "We've let her down!". So why labour the point? the only possible reason I can see for it is as a convenient rod for the Drs McCann backs.
Isn't it about time it was realised that enough is enough and wish this family a positive outcome.
Would you care to define "positive outcome" so we have a datum from which to work?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 02, 2015, 03:13:51 PM
I would like to find out what happened to Madeleine, no matter what.
For you and me it would be nice to know, nothing better than the resolution of a real mystery. I can only imagine what it would mean to Madeleine's family to find out what happened to her and perhaps even have her returned to them.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 02, 2015, 04:03:08 PM
If you are truly unable to define what a positive outcome might be ... you have a problem.
I was after your definition for which I asked politely. You seem to have a problem in providing the answer then resorting to veiled insults to hide your own inadequacy.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 04:08:25 PM
I was after your definition for which I asked politely. You seem to have a problem in providing the answer then resorting to veiled insults to hide your own inadequacy.
Let's throw about some ideas regarding what a positive outcome for the McCann family might be then. Here's one - Madeleine found safe and well and returned to her family. Any others?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 02, 2015, 04:18:48 PM
Let's throw about some ideas regarding what a positive outcome for the McCann family might be then. Here's one - Madeleine found safe and well and returned to her family. Any others?
I asked politely of the poster known on here as Brietta. I think it only common courtesy she respond in like manner after all it is not too difficult. So talk to your self Alf.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
I asked politely of the poster known on here as Brietta. I think it only common courtesy she respond in like manner after all it is not too difficult. So talk to your self Alf.
I don't believe your request was polite actually. I think it was the usual 'Alice' form of (not very) subtle piss taking. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 02, 2015, 04:25:02 PM
Madeleine McCann was within the boundaries of the property where strangers had no right of access and which should have been a safety zone for her. I'm not sure your reference to the gate does you any credit, but you are of course correct about the irrelevance of the whole discussion which has as usual been turned into yet another vehicle to denigrate Madeleine's parents.
So very, very tiresome.
The child was within a private property called 5A owned by a UK resident. The parents were inside a private property owned by OC - the tapas compound. The only way to get from one to the other was along a public road. I measured the walking distance between parents and child was 90 metres
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 07:04:09 PM
The child was within a private property called 5A owned by a UK resident. The parents were inside a private property owned by OC - the tapas compound. The only way to get from one to the other was along a public road. I measured the walking distance between parents and child was 90 metres
Yes it is evident where Madeleine was ... just as it is evident where her parents were. Less than a minute away, and that is neither crowing or flying.
Why you feel the necessity to embroider the distance apart is a matter entirely for you to pursue.
In my opinion it adds nothing at all to the circumstances in which Madeleine disappeared, which are not evident.
It serves only to minimise the culpability of the abductor who if Mark Williams-Thomas's theory is correct, or if my theory is correct ... is the person responsible for the crime.
If this person is ever discovered, do you think your argument should form part of his defence?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 07:22:50 PM
Yes it is evident where Madeleine was ... just as it is evident where her parents were. Less than a minute away, and that is neither crowing or flying.
Why you feel the necessity to embroider the distance apart is a matter entirely for you to pursue.
In my opinion it adds nothing at all to the circumstances in which Madeleine disappeared, which are not evident.
It serves only to minimise the culpability of the abductor who if Mark Williams-Thomas's theory is correct, or if my theory is correct ... is the person responsible for the crime.
If this person is ever discovered, do you think your argument should form part of his defence?
It was obvious IMO from the start that they would never be charged for the leaving at home thing, because any judge would reject it, not because it was a responsible action, but because they suffered consequences a million times greater than any legal penalty already.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 02, 2015, 07:38:56 PM
Yes it is evident where Madeleine was ... just as it is evident where her parents were. Less than a minute away, and that is neither crowing or flying.
Why you feel the necessity to embroider the distance apart is a matter entirely for you to pursue.
In my opinion it adds nothing at all to the circumstances in which Madeleine disappeared, which are not evident.
It serves only to minimise the culpability of the abductor who if Mark Williams-Thomas's theory is correct, or if my theory is correct ... is the person responsible for the crime.
If this person is ever discovered, do you think your argument should form part of his defence?
The head start an abductor had may well be critical if it was abduction.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 07:41:07 PM
We've heard many times that the balcony lounge door was 50 metres away as the crow flies and the top half of some of this door was visble from the restaurant table. But was anyone actually watching it? If they were watching it they would presumably have seen from the table the following events... GM entering apartment. GM leaving apartment. MO entering apartment. MO leaving apartment. KM entering apartment. KM leaving apartment. Is there any mention in statements of anyone at the restaurant table seeing those events?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 07:44:11 PM
It was obvious IMO from the start that they would never be charged for the leaving at home thing, because any judge would reject it, not because it was a responsible action, but because they suffered consequences a million times greater than any legal penalty already.
Quite, and it is something which has been latched onto by people who apparently have a mission in life to exacerbate an already intolerable situation. I do not count you as one of them which makes me wonder at your insistence in 'disproving' an accepted distance and time taken to cover it, particularly as it means nothing either in contributory (parents) or culpability (abductor) terms.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 02, 2015, 07:44:50 PM
The head start an abductor had may well be critical if it was abduction.
Indeed SiL. If the checks had been every 15 minutes, as we are told the nannies checks were, then the alleged abductor may even have been caught in the act.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2015, 07:53:24 PM
The head start an abductor had may well be critical if it was abduction.
Agreed.
It was perfectly possible that Madeleine might not have been missed till morning. In the event she was missed around ten pm ... the prevalent police assumption that she woke and wandered and the affront caused by the parents' insistence that she had been taken had a lasting effect.
'woke and wandered' indeed allowed any abductor a head start
resentment of the parents had a detrimental effect on the rest of the investigation
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 07:55:23 PM
Quite, and it is something which has been latched onto by people who apparently have a mission in life to exacerbate an already intolerable situation. I do not count you as one of them which makes me wonder at your insistence in 'disproving' an accepted distance and time taken to cover it, particularly as it means nothing either in contributory (parents) or culpability (abductor) terms.
I'm annoyed at the legalese/PR rubbish that was advised Brietta - they would have been much better off without it IMO. For example the back garden analogy of distance - I bet that was advised by so-called experts IMO, not made up by the parents themselves.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 02, 2015, 08:00:39 PM
I'm annoyed at the legalese/PR rubbish that was advised Brietta - they would have been much better off without it IMO. For example the back garden analogy of distance - I bet that was advised by so-called experts IMO, not made up by the parents themselves.
Reputation management seemed most important.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: misty on November 02, 2015, 08:07:14 PM
When Madeleine went missing, one of the first things a member of the PJ did was to announce on national TV that the parents & their friends were engaged in swinging...........
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 08:12:46 PM
Indeed SiL. If the checks had been every 15 minutes, as we are told the nannies checks were, then the alleged abductor may even have been caught in the act.
I wonder how long it would take fro a child to wake, exit the apartment and wander to the entrance to the Tapas compound..... 9.05 - 9.20 Gerry, Jez Wilkins and Jane Tanner around. 9.15 The Moyes return. 9.25-9.35 Matthew and Russell around. 9.40 Jane again. 9.45 Russell returns. 9.50-10.00 Kate on the way to check.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 08:13:51 PM
Indeed SiL. If the checks had been every 15 minutes, as we are told the nannies checks were, then the alleged abductor may even have been caught in the act.
15 minutes is more than ample time to abduct a child - I think Heri demonstrated that it would be possible to take the child and be out of PdL in less time.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 02, 2015, 08:16:38 PM
Yes, if you were using a teleporter and warp speed. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 08:17:00 PM
I'm annoyed at the legalese/PR rubbish that was advised Brietta - they would have been much better off without it IMO. For example the back garden analogy - I bet that was advised by so-called experts IMO, not made up by the parents themselves.
They live every day of their lives with that distance between themselves and Madeleine. Eight years is a long time to do that. There was not one thing they could do about it when they discovered Madeleine gone and the only thing they can do now is watch and wait for Scotland Yard and the Policia Judiciaria to come up with something about their missing child. It must be next to unbearable.
Any annoyance felt by posters on a discussion forum fades into insignificance when compared with real pain.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 02, 2015, 08:21:55 PM
The problem with legalese/image peeps inventing "like dining in the back garden" is they forgot that a few people have access to an advanced top-secret lie-detector device code-named "a ruler".
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 08:29:52 PM
15 minutes is more than ample time to abduct a child - I think Heri demonstrated that it would be possible to take the child and be out of PdL in less time.
The problem is no-one knows what the gaps between checks were. According to the group it could have been between 5 and 15 minutes, but there's no independent verification. There is also nothing to verify that Madeleine was abducted.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 08:31:26 PM
The problem is no-one knows what the gaps between checks were. According to the group it could have been between 5 and 15 minutes, but there's no independent verification. There is also nothing to verify that Madeleine was abducted.
I was responding to this comment:
Indeed SiL. If the checks had been every 15 minutes, as we are told the nannies checks were, then the alleged abductor may even have been caught in the act.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 02, 2015, 08:33:58 PM
The problem with legalese/image peeps inventing "like dining in the back garden" is they forgot that a few people have access to an advanced top-secret lie-detector device code-named "a ruler".
Perhaps they have huge back gardens also? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 02, 2015, 08:38:39 PM
north bedroom to table = about 10 BGL units
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 02, 2015, 08:49:12 PM
So in your eyes, SY in the form of DCI Redwood, publicly stating that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or persons of interest in this case is 'erroneous' and is not evidence that the McCanns and their friends are not suspects or persons of interest in this case? Really?
That may be your idea of 'sticking to the facts' - but it's certainly not mine.
If you had bothered to follow the conversations you will have latched onto what I meant:
Quote from: stephen25000 on November 01, 2015, 07:12:56 PM Bafflingly illogical alfred ?
To the contrary, many people find it totally baffling why certain parties come on here to defend the mccanns, no matter what.
As to the mccanns 'not using social media', is that an established fact or merely hearsay ?
It is already known they have 'associates' monitoring the internet on their behalf.
You: Good grief - you actually find it ''totally baffling'' that there are people who agree with the police forces of two countries who have ruled the McCanns out of the investigation - rather than agree with armchair detectives who only have some of the info to go on - no access to anyone involved in the case - and no expertise in policework? Now that really is baffling IMO.
me:
People defended the mccanns so called childcare arrangements from 2007 , thats years and years before the portuguese reopened the enquiry and years after SY got involved....so your post is erroneous....as is also the statement that both police forces have ruled the mccanns out...you have no evidence which supports that, ok? Good, best stick to facts at all times
You: the quoted post
So, no I did NOT say Redwoods pronouncements were erroneous, just YOUR argument, but never mind, not going to argue the toss with you any more
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: mercury on November 02, 2015, 09:10:00 PM
Yes it is evident where Madeleine was ... just as it is evident where her parents were. Less than a minute away, and that is neither crowing or flying.
Why you feel the necessity to embroider the distance apart is a matter entirely for you to pursue.
In my opinion it adds nothing at all to the circumstances in which Madeleine disappeared, which are not evident.
It serves only to minimise the culpability of the abductor who if Mark Williams-Thomas's theory is correct, or if my theory is correct ... is the person responsible for the crime.
If this person is ever discovered, do you think your argument should form part of his defence?
It might do your argument well if you explained why the time to get to somewhere mattered in any way shape or form if they were not getting there for half hour stretches to begin with!
unless the three toddlers were sleepng on the balcony and the parents had their eyes glued there all night that is...that might have been a little different...not labouring the left alone point as as if that werent bad enough, just trying to ensure you are sure of your own logic here
and do remind me what exactly they were checking for that might/would not have happened in between "checks" iyswim
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 02, 2015, 09:47:07 PM
My cage is not rattled, but your post was ridiculous.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 03, 2015, 03:12:59 AM
From the book "Handy Hints for Image Managers" Chapter 40: " How to shrink distances so they are shorter" Rule 17: "Use flexible units - they are your friend - for example use BGL units (back garden lengths)" Rule 18 "If the real back garden was only about 4 metres long - don't worry about that - substitute the back garden of some imaginary large mansion - to get the BGL unit you need" Rule 99: "If after shrinking the distance, an important thing is still completely invisible, no problem, just find some irrelevant object like a door or wall and emphasise how visible that was - it will fool everyone"
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 03, 2015, 07:31:29 AM
15 minutes is more than ample time to abduct a child - I think Heri demonstrated that it would be possible to take the child and be out of PdL in less time.
I'd like to see him get a strange child to that window in the dark and lift it out. Pillows and children are not the same.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 03, 2015, 08:08:30 AM
I'd like to see him get a strange child to that window in the dark and lift it out. Pillows and children are not the same.
Madeleine was not strange, she was a normal, inquisitive, innocent child who, if awake and called to from the window by name, would more than likely go over to see who was calling her. I honestly find it hard to believe that some people on this board have ever had children or know very much about how they may behave. children of 4 are frighteningly naive and will believe pretty much anything you tell them, whoever you are.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 03, 2015, 08:58:36 AM
Madeleine was not strange, she was a normal, inquisitive, innocent child who, if awake and called to from the window by name, would more than likely go over to see who was calling her. I honestly find it hard to believe that some people on this board have ever had children or know very much about how they may behave. children of 4 are frighteningly naive and will believe pretty much anything you tell them, whoever you are.
Along comes Mr Abductor. He quietly raises the shutters from outside just in case the window is unlocked. Eureka! it is. First stroke of luck!
He opens the window and starts quietly calling....what? Does he know Madeleine's name? He has done his homework!
If he has done his homework he can guess there are three children in that room. Calling the name of one of them is very risky because all three might wake and scream, but never mind, he tries it anyway. Luckily he has opened the window of the one apartment in the resort which contains two children who won't wake no matter if he screams Madeleine's name at the top of his voice accompanied by a brass band.
More good luck. Only the targeted child wakes (luckily she sleeps a lot more lightly than her siblings), doesn't cry, and happily makes her way over to the window and allows herself to be lifted out. The shyness mentioned by many of the staff has miraculously disappeared - lucky, lucky, lucky.
The luckiest Mr Abductor in the world carries off his prize.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 03, 2015, 09:03:52 AM
Along comes Mr Abductor. He quietly raises the shutters from outside just in case the window is unlocked. Eureka! it is. First stroke of luck!
He opens the window and starts quietly calling....what? Does he know Madeleine's name? He has done his homework!
If he has done his homework he can guess there are three children in that room. Calling the name of one of them is very risky because all three might wake and scream, but never mind, he tries it anyway. Luckily he has opened the window of the one apartment in the resort which contains two children who won't wake no matter if he screams Madeleine's name at the top of his voice accompanied by a brass band.
More good luck. Only the targeted child wakes (luckily she sleeps a lot more lightly than her siblings), doesn't cry, and happily makes her way over to the window and allows herself to be lifted out. The shyness mentioned by many of the staff has miraculously disappeared - lucky, lucky, lucky.
The luckiest Mr Abductor in the world carries off his prize.
AS I have pointed out before abducting children is a high risk game, never more so than when taking a child from its secure environment. I could write an equally cheap and facetious scenario about a young girl stolen from her bath by a strange man, or a young girl raped and murdered in her dorm while all her fellow students slept on around her, but I won't as it's not necessary - both actually happened and we have proof that they did.
Also, what is it with this notion that calling into a child's bedroom, using her name will cause all its young inhabitants to start screaming? Bizarre!
ETA: Heri's scenario (which may or may not be close to the truth who knows?) at least has the advantage of being lower risk than most other abductor scenarios in that if the child does not come to the window, and if all the inhabitants do (for some bizarre reason) start screaming their heads off, he can run away quickly and easily into the night.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2015, 10:24:55 AM
That is a fairly nonsensical argument, no evidence exists. To insinuate that it is acceptable or useful to consider non existent evidence as proof of anything is mind boggling.
You might as well point out that if someone else had been in 5a they would have been an eye witness.
You have completely missed the point - which is that because no evidence was recovered doesn't mean it never existed - as it could have been destroyed/contaminated by the large amount of traffic in 5A before the forensic bods arrived.
Isn't it a recurring criticsm by sceptics that the McCanns failed to morph into policemen and cordon off the scene in order to avoid destruction/ contamination of evidence?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 03, 2015, 10:36:21 AM
AS I have pointed out before abducting children is a high risk game, never more so than when taking a child from its secure environment. I could write an equally cheap and facetious scenario about a young girl stolen from her bath by a strange man, or a young girl raped and murdered in her dorm while all her fellow students slept on around her, but I won't as it's not necessary - both actually happened and we have proof that they did.
Also, what is it with this notion that calling into a child's bedroom, using her name will cause all its young inhabitants to start screaming? Bizarre!
ETA: Heri's scenario (which may or may not be close to the truth who knows?) at least has the advantage of being lower risk than most other abductor scenarios in that if the child does not come to the window, and if all the inhabitants do (for some bizarre reason) start screaming their heads off, he can run away quickly and easily into the night.
I believe the child abducted from the bath did scream it's head off and the girl that was raped and murdered in a dormonitory was considerably older than Madeleine and therefore would be much more aware of her predicament and susceptible to threats to keep quiet.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 03, 2015, 10:56:52 AM
You have completely missed the point - which is that because no evidence was recovered doesn't mean it never existed - as it could have been destroyed/contaminated by the large amount of traffic in 5A before the forensic bods arrived.
Isn't it a recurring criticsm by sceptics that the McCanns failed to morph into policemen and cordon off the scene in order to avoid destruction/ contamination of evidence?
Try to remember benice that applies to the other scenarios, which I know you won't accept.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Benice on November 03, 2015, 11:09:44 AM
Try to remember Venice that applies to the other scenarios, which I know you won't accept.
You are quite wrong Stephen. Yes I do believe Madeleine was abducted, but that doesn't mean that I have completely closed my mind to any other possible scenario - and neither do I feel the need to abuse anyone for having a different opinion to mine. In fact I welcome other 'theories' and if I thought one was credible I would be the first to say that it was. However, In 8 years I have never heard another 'theory' which doesn't crash and burn under scrutiny imo.
I hope that is clear enough for you.
(p.s I remember Venice well - I was there a few years ago. It was a fantastic place. :-)
must go out now.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 03, 2015, 11:39:51 AM
Thursday, 10 May 2007
Madeleine's uncle, John McCann, from Glasgow, countered criticism from those who say the couple were wrong to leave their children alone in their apartment while they ate dinner at a nearby restaurant.
"If you look at the layout of that place, it was entirely safe. The issue at stake here was, that the flat was broken into, and wee Madeleine was abducted," he told BBC Radio Five Live.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6644615.stm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2015, 12:07:16 PM
The first two law officers on the scene were officers Roque and da Costa both of whom were of the opinion it was not abduction, there was no sign of a break in and the child possibly left by her own means. The latest comment from PJ appears to be: "However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”. Bearing in mind of course this statement is against the backdrop of having the assistance of The MPS.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 03, 2015, 12:31:04 PM
The first two law officers on the scene were officers Roque and da Costa both of whom were of the opinion it was not abduction, there was no sign of a break in and the child possibly left by her own means. The latest comment from PJ appears to be: "However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”. Bearing in mind of course this statement is against the backdrop of having the assistance of The MPS.
Since there were no previous confirmed cases of child abduction the police were right to be sceptical.
As there hasn't been a repeat case in the area in the eight years following Maddie's disappearance an accident of some sort is beginning to look all the more possible.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
The first two law officers on the scene were officers Roque and da Costa both of whom were of the opinion it was not abduction, there was no sign of a break in and the child possibly left by her own means. The latest comment from PJ appears to be: "However in the case of Madeleine McCann, we are yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to her”. Bearing in mind of course this statement is against the backdrop of having the assistance of The MPS.
Bearing in mind that the belief that Madeleine woke and wandered considerably delayed investigating whether or not she had been abducted.
**Snip One of the Guarda Nacional Republicana agents who was first to arrive at the resort in Praia da Luz and at the McCann couple’s apartment is suspected of having received over 120 thousand euros of “live” money, a short time after Maddie’s disappearance. This GNR officer is essential to the entire investigation, given the fact that he was among the first to arrive at the location where the little girl disappeared, and also one of the first people to get into contact with the parents.
TVI has established that the case of the sudden 120 thousand euros in the GNR officer’s hands is being investigated by the Polícia Judiciária (PJ). http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/06/maddie-case-gnr-suspect-of-receiveing.html
Did the PJ ever get a satisfactory answer to their inquiries?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 03, 2015, 02:17:14 PM
I believe the child abducted from the bath did scream it's head off and the girl that was raped and murdered in a dormonitory was considerably older than Madeleine and therefore would be much more aware of her predicament and susceptible to threats to keep quiet.
So - the fact that a child was capable of screaming her head off didn't give the abductor pause for thought before breaking and entering, or taking her despite the fact that her mother was in the house? I see. I think this proves what insane risks child abductors are prepared to take, don't you?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 03, 2015, 02:48:44 PM
Since there were no previous confirmed cases of child abduction the police were right to be sceptical.
As there hasn't been a repeat case in the area in the eight years following Maddie's disappearance an accident of some sort is beginning to look all the more possible.
no it isn't
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 03, 2015, 03:48:33 PM
Bearing in mind that the belief that Madeleine woke and wandered considerably delayed investigating whether or not she had been abducted.
**Snip One of the Guarda Nacional Republicana agents who was first to arrive at the resort in Praia da Luz and at the McCann couple’s apartment is suspected of having received over 120 thousand euros of “live” money, a short time after Maddie’s disappearance. This GNR officer is essential to the entire investigation, given the fact that he was among the first to arrive at the location where the little girl disappeared, and also one of the first people to get into contact with the parents.
TVI has established that the case of the sudden 120 thousand euros in the GNR officer’s hands is being investigated by the Polícia Judiciária (PJ). http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/06/maddie-case-gnr-suspect-of-receiveing.html
Did the PJ ever get a satisfactory answer to their inquiries?
So on the basis of an article which is "no names no pack drill" and particularly vague published over a year after the event you are prepared to discount the depositions of the first two law enforcement agents on the scene ? I am sure "probably the best law enforcement agency in the world" investigated were there anything to investigate of course.
"He was one of the first agents to arrive in Praia da Luz. PJ is already investigating the handover of “live” money One of the Guarda Nacional Republicana agents who was first to arrive at the resort in Praia da Luz and at the McCann couple’s apartment is suspected of having received over 120 thousand euros of “live” money, a short time after Maddie’s disappearance. This GNR officer is essential to the entire investigation, given the fact that he was among the first to arrive at the location where the little girl disappeared, and also one of the first people to get into contact with the parents".
Your customary gold mine full of pyrites is that Brie.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: faithlilly on November 03, 2015, 07:03:09 PM
So - the fact that a child was capable of screaming her head off didn't give the abductor pause for thought before breaking and entering, or taking her despite the fact that her mother was in the house? I see. I think this proves what insane risks child abductors are prepared to take, don't you?
I'm not arguing that child abductors don't take risks. They evidently do. Madeleine's grandmother said if she was picked up by a stranger she would scream her head off, contradicting your speculative guess that Madeleine could have been abducted from her room by a stranger in the middle of the night without making a sound.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 03, 2015, 07:27:21 PM
I'm not arguing that child abductors don't take risks. They evidently do. Madeleine's grandmother said if she was picked up by a stranger she would scream her head off, contradicting your speculative guess that Madeleine could have been abducted from her room by a stranger in the middle of the night without making a sound.
Maybe she did scream? Maybe her scream was stifled? Maybe she didn't scream because she recognised the person calling to her? What law states a child cannot be abducted from a house unless lots of noise is made? You'd think the rape and murder of a young girl would cause enough noise to wake up a dormitory full of sleeping children wouldn't you? But sadly, whilst a couple of children in that dorm did stir and thought they heard something odd, they went back to sleep again without raising any alarm.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far
Post by: mercury on November 03, 2015, 10:43:44 PM
Bearing in mind that the belief that Madeleine woke and wandered considerably delayed investigating whether or not she had been abducted.
**Snip One of the Guarda Nacional Republicana agents who was first to arrive at the resort in Praia da Luz and at the McCann couple’s apartment is suspected of having received over 120 thousand euros of “live” money, a short time after Maddie’s disappearance. This GNR officer is essential to the entire investigation, given the fact that he was among the first to arrive at the location where the little girl disappeared, and also one of the first people to get into contact with the parents.
TVI has established that the case of the sudden 120 thousand euros in the GNR officer’s hands is being investigated by the Polícia Judiciária (PJ). http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/06/maddie-case-gnr-suspect-of-receiveing.html
Did the PJ ever get a satisfactory answer to their inquiries?
If anyone knew it would be all over the net and discussed Not sure what you suspect this officer of doing, he may have won the lottery, got a house sale or inheritance through, and a number of various innocent reasons If he received payment for doing whatever you imagine potentially sinister, do you seriously think he would have accepted money into his personal transparent bank account? Traceable by whoever looked and then reported it? Must have been dumb then. Seeing as nthng transpired from this strange story the likelihood is it was nothing or an error of identity, as Portuguese names are a little like welsh ones...not thousands and thousands of them.!
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far
Post by: Brietta on November 03, 2015, 11:25:50 PM
If anyone knew it would be all over the net and discussed Not sure what you suspect this officer of doing, he may have won the lottery, got a house sale or inheritance through, and a number of various innocent reasons If he received payment for doing whatever you imagine potentially sinister, do you seriously think he would have accepted money into his personal transparent bank account? Traceable by whoever looked and then reported it? Must have been dumb then. Seeing as nthng transpired from this strange story the likelihood is it was nothing or an error of identity, as Portuguese names are a little like welsh ones...not thousands and thousands of them.!
Why on earth should I think there is anything sinister about a GNR cabo having large sums of money deposited in various bank accounts?
Doesn't seem to be a particularly unusual occurrence.
**Snip
Following the investigation of the PJ, defendants were recorded, and Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, a former employee of this, Rui Martins, suspected to have made the deposit of two thousand euros in bank the assistant referee Jose Cardinal account in Funchal, and Secretary of leonine leader, Liliana Caldeira, which allegedly have bought the plane ticket to the referee travel to Madeira.
Why on earth should I think there is anything sinister about a GNR cabo having large sums of money deposited in various bank accounts?
Doesn't seem to be a particularly unusual occurrence.
**Snip
Following the investigation of the PJ, defendants were recorded, and Paulo Pereira Cristóvão, a former employee of this, Rui Martins, suspected to have made the deposit of two thousand euros in bank the assistant referee Jose Cardinal account in Funchal, and Secretary of leonine leader, Liliana Caldeira, which allegedly have bought the plane ticket to the referee travel to Madeira.
Thanks Misty. But that lady measures the distance from tapas reception to the garden gate. An irelevant distance. The only relevant distance is the walking distance from the dining parents to the CHILD. Table to child bedroom. Measure it on GMaps - "measure distance" is a great feature - you can define the exact walking route. You will find it is 90 metres to the child's bed.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
Interesting. From the tapas entrance to the side gate ... a journey which takes just over thirty seconds at walking pace. Ten seconds from the gate to the lane. When considered timewise ... a very short distance away indeed.
The consideration that they were about a minute away from the children certainly led them to drop their guard until they returned to find the window open and Madeleine missing.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 05, 2015, 12:08:32 PM
Interesting. From the tapas entrance to the side gate ... a journey which takes just over thirty seconds at walking pace. Ten seconds from the gate to the lane. When considered timewise ... a very short distance away indeed.
The consideration that they were about a minute away from the children certainly led them to drop their guard until they returned to find the window open and Madeleine missing.
Yes, an effective baby listening device to alert them to any audible event should have been OK at that short time distance.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 12:29:03 PM
Yes, an effective baby listening device to alert them to any audible event should have been OK at that short time distance.
Absolutely, Jassi, but to overcome that aspect they were carrying out regular checks by walking up and entering the apartment to check at regular intervals. So a minute there ~ a minute to listen ~ a minute back and the meal wouldn't even have been cold.
Let's not forget the part an abductor played in all of this though ... and let us not forget to apportion the blame to that or those person/s. Without whom the McCann party would have packed up and departed for home on schedule having enjoyed a lovely holiday.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 05, 2015, 12:33:07 PM
Absolutely, Jassi, but to overcome that aspect they were carrying out regular checks by walking up and entering the apartment to check at regular intervals. So a minute there ~ a minute to listen ~ a minute back and the meal wouldn't even have been cold.
Let's not forget the part an abductor played in all of this though ... and let us not forget to apportion the blame to that or those person/s. Without whom the McCann party would have packed up and departed for home on schedule having enjoyed a lovely holiday.
Those 'checks' have not been independently verified.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 05, 2015, 12:47:03 PM
Absolutely, Jassi, but to overcome that aspect they were carrying out regular checks by walking up and entering the apartment to check at regular intervals. So a minute there ~ a minute to listen ~ a minute back and the meal wouldn't even have been cold.
Let's not forget the part an abductor played in all of this though ... and let us not forget to apportion the blame to that or those person/s. Without whom the McCann party would have packed up and departed for home on schedule having enjoyed a lovely holiday.
Yes, but as they had nothing to alert them , the time taken to get back is not really important - they could have sat for 20 minutes after Madeleine disappeared and wouldn't know anything was wrong.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 12:54:23 PM
Yes, but as they had nothing to alert them , the time taken to get back is not really important - they could have sat for 20 minutes after Madeleine disappeared and wouldn't know anything was wrong.
They didn't know anything was wrong. Do you think they would have continued with their meal if they did?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 05, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
They didn't know anything was wrong. Do you think they would have continued with their meal if they did?
That's the point. They had no way of detecting if anything was wrong and therefore the distance away had no bearing on them looking out for their children's well being.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 05, 2015, 01:47:19 PM
That's the point. They had no way of detecting if anything was wrong and therefore the distance away had no bearing on them looking out for their children's well being.
Similar situation to the parents who slept through their children being assaulted. They had no idea anything was amiss.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 05, 2015, 01:52:58 PM
Similar situation to the parents who slept through their children being assaulted. They had no idea anything was amiss.
Indeed, but in their case, the parents had done everything in their power to ensure the safety of their children. The same cannot be said of the McCanns.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 05, 2015, 02:21:18 PM
That's the point. They had no way of detecting if anything was wrong and therefore the distance away had no bearing on them looking out for their children's well being.
Hmm. If an abductor had entered the Payne's apartment, without breaking in so not making a significant noise, had taken a child and at this point something registered on the baby monitor, what would have been the outcome?
Unless the Payne's immediately thought "there's a stranger inside the flat" thereby sparking a rush to return, I make it one of two options. 1 Return at a normal pace. 2 Sit for a bit longer to see if things go quiet again.
In either of these scenarios, an abductor had the head start needed to make it to the car park of block 4, and be out of the visual interest zone of someone prioritising a check in block 5.
Even if the Payne's thought 'stranger' and rushed, the chances are an abductor would succeed in getting away.
You need to have a noisy entrance to shift the odds in favour of the Paynes i.e. a proper break-in.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: jassi on November 05, 2015, 02:57:24 PM
In which case, the whole group's child care arrangements were rubbish.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on November 05, 2015, 04:09:56 PM
In which case, the whole group's child care arrangements were rubbish.
I had been thinking about this in terms of the culpability of the 4 families making up the T9, and concluded, IMO, the order was as follows. McCanns = worst, as on top of distance the patio door was unlocked. (Note - my 'favourite' theorem was that a key was used, but I cannot prove it.) Oldfields and JT/ROB next - distance, but no open patio door. Payne's = slightly better, due to working baby monitor, though not perfect.
However, assuming that it was an abduction, then I cannot blame anyone for not planning against such a possibility. (Having lived here for a few years, and with grandchildren around Madeleine's age, we do not do abduction risk assessment.)
This makes a realistic test the simple safety of the children, and I think most posters have expressed their view on that.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 05, 2015, 04:28:40 PM
I had been thinking about this in terms of the culpability of the 4 families making up the T9, and concluded, IMO, the order was as follows. McCanns = worst, as on top of distance the patio door was unlocked. (Note - my 'favourite' theorem was that a key was used, but I cannot prove it.) Oldfields and JT/ROB next - distance, but no open patio door. Payne's = slightly better, due to working baby monitor, though not perfect.
However, assuming that it was an abduction, then I cannot blame anyone for not planning against such a possibility. (Having lived here for a few years, and with grandchildren around Madeleine's age, we do not do abduction risk assessment.)
This makes a realistic test the simple safety of the children, and I think most posters have expressed their view on that.
I assume you do a H&S assessment?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 12:35:44 AM
I had been thinking about this in terms of the culpability of the 4 families making up the T9, and concluded, IMO, the order was as follows. McCanns = worst, as on top of distance the patio door was unlocked. (Note - my 'favourite' theorem was that a key was used, but I cannot prove it.) Oldfields and JT/ROB next - distance, but no open patio door. Payne's = slightly better, due to working baby monitor, though not perfect.
However, assuming that it was an abduction, then I cannot blame anyone for not planning against such a possibility. (Having lived here for a few years, and with grandchildren around Madeleine's age, we do not do abduction risk assessment.)
This makes a realistic test the simple safety of the children, and I think most posters have expressed their view on that.
I've just done an H&S assesment for leaving kids that age home alone and it is convincing - it makes me really annoyed at those paid PR/legal types who sat at that table and said it was ok.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 12:48:02 AM
I've just done an H&S assesment for leaving kids that age home alone and it is convincing - it makes me really annoyed at those paid PR/legal types who sat at that table and said it was ok.
They may have been lulled into a false sense of security at the time ... but hindsight being the exact science it is ... which one of them would say now that it is OK?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 12:54:41 AM
They may have been lulled into a false sense of security at the time ... but hindsight being the exact science it is ... which one of them would say now that it is OK?
Yes but that is no excuse for those PR/legal types afterwards with full benefit of hindsight to sit at that table and spout such rubbish as "that's responsible" or "I would have done the same".
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 01:12:47 AM
Yes but that is no excuse for those PR/legal types afterwards with full benefit of hindsight to sit at that table and spout such rubbish as "that's responsible" or "I would have done the same".
I do not know who these PR/legal types to whom you refer are. A cite would be helpful.
There are numerous occasions when the Drs McCann have accepted full responsibility starting on the night Madeleine was taken when Kate was reported to have been screaming that they had let Madeleine down.
One wonders why the perpetrator/s of the crime are never mentioned in this blame game.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 01:31:24 AM
I do not know who these PR/legal types to whom you refer are. A cite would be helpful. ...(snip)
It's easy enough to read who early PR/legal types were and the exact words they said Brietta and I disagree with their opinions, in fact I don't think they were genuine opinions.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 01:37:16 AM
(snip) ... There are numerous occasions when the Drs McCann have accepted full responsibility starting on the night Madeleine was taken when Kate was reported to have been screaming that they had let Madeleine down. ...(snip)
But never absolute Brietta - there is always a legal disclaimer tagged on, like "however we have been assured that..." unless you have a cite without a disclaimer?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 01:57:20 AM
It's easy enough to read who early PR/legal types were and the exact words they said Brietta and I disagree with their opinions, in fact I don't think they were genuine opinions.
No cite then?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 02:14:01 AM
But never absolute Brietta - there is always a legal disclaimer tagged on, like "however we have been assured that..." unless you have a cite without a disclaimer?
What do you class as a disclaimer? The fact that they were lulled into a false sense of security brought about by the ambience of Luz and made entirely wrong choices as a result? You may not wish to concede that they will regret their actions every single day for the rest of their lives ... that is not the way I see it.
**Snip
Heartbroken mum Kate McCann quietly sobs as she speaks for the first time of her guilt about leaving little daughter Madeleine alone the night she was snatched. "I feel desperately sorry to her that we weren't there," she says.
"Every hour now, I still ask myself, 'Why did I think that was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I do feel regret. I've gone through all my life and said I never want to have any regrets, but you can't not regret something like that."
Speaking without her husband Gerry at her side for the first time, Kate, 38, reveals how she is haunted by the unbearable regret that she wasn't there to protect her daughter. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/SUNDAY_MIRROR_05_08_07.htm
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 02:15:13 AM
What do you class as a disclaimer? The fact that they were lulled into a false sense of security brought about by the ambience of Luz and made entirely wrong choices as a result? You may not wish to concede that they will regret their actions every single day for the rest of their lives ... that is not the way I see it.
**Snip
Heartbroken mum Kate McCann quietly sobs as she speaks for the first time of her guilt about leaving little daughter Madeleine alone the night she was snatched. "I feel desperately sorry to her that we weren't there," she says.
"Every hour now, I still ask myself, 'Why did I think that was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I do feel regret. I've gone through all my life and said I never want to have any regrets, but you can't not regret something like that."
Speaking without her husband Gerry at her side for the first time, Kate, 38, reveals how she is haunted by the unbearable regret that she wasn't there to protect her daughter. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/SUNDAY_MIRROR_05_08_07.htm
Talk is cheap and actions is proof.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 02:22:33 AM
To start with, "lulled into a false sense of security brought about by the ambience of Luz" is a disclaimer Brietta.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 02:22:43 AM
Sorry, you are making an unattributed quote there and the way you have been speaking about these PR gurus et al the place ought to be heaving with quotable attributed quotes.
Please don't try to paint a blacker picture of these people than is necessary ... there are plenty of others out there in the internet making that their raison d'etre.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 02:25:13 AM
"But it did feel safe and so right" is a disclaimer too Brietta.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 02:31:26 AM
To start with, "lulled into a false sense of security brought about by the ambience of Luz" is a disclaimer Brietta.
Those are my words.
Certainly not a disclaimer.
"Guilt" "Desperately sorry" "Why did I think that was safe?" "Regret" ... ... ... are Kate McCann's words.
For me, they are perfectly clear in their intent and if you think about it without viewing them through a prism you might be able to accept the clarity with which they are expressed.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 02:35:51 AM
"But it did feel safe and so right" is a disclaimer too Brietta.
No.
It was how they felt at the time.
Do you think if they had felt otherwise and that Luz was a frightening, threatening place to them ... they would have allowed the children out of their sight?
Still nothing about all the PR bods' inferences?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: pegasus on November 08, 2015, 02:38:16 AM
"Guilt" "Desperately sorry" "Why did I think that was safe?" "Regret" ... ... ... are Kate McCann's words.
For me, they are perfectly clear in their intent and if you think about it without viewing them through a prism you might be able to accept the clarity with which they are expressed.
Ok I accept your view of it and certainly I have no critisism of the mother I just think would have been better without advisors of all sorts turning up that first weekend
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2015, 06:19:35 PM
Ok I accept your view of it and certainly I have no critisism of the mother I just think would have been better without advisors of all sorts turning up that first weekend
Exactly who brought in the advisers? Without checking it out ... was it not Mark Warner?
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2015, 07:02:55 PM
Exactly who brought in the advisers? Without checking it out ... was it not Mark Warner?
Alan Pike, Alex Woolfall of Bell Pottinger and Control Risks Group were all brought in by Mark Warner. A colleague of Gerald McCann's knew a paralegal and that's how International Family Law Group arrived.
Title: Re: Was 50 metres from the apartment 50 metres too far?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 09, 2015, 06:03:07 PM
"What do you class as a disclaimer? The fact that they were lulled into a false sense of security brought about by the ambience of Luz and made entirely wrong choices as a result? You may not wish to concede that they will regret their actions every single day for the rest of their lives ... that is not the way I see it.
**Snip Heartbroken mum Kate McCann quietly sobs as she speaks for the first time of her guilt about leaving little daughter Madeleine alone the night she was snatched. "I feel desperately sorry to her that we weren't there," she says.
"Every hour now, I still ask myself, 'Why did I think that was safe?' But it did feel safe and so right. I do feel regret. I've gone through all my life and said I never want to have any regrets, but you can't not regret something like that."
Speaking without her husband Gerry at her side for the first time, Kate, 38, reveals how she is haunted by the unbearable regret that she wasn't there to protect her daughter. http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/4aug7/SUNDAY_MIRROR_05_08_07.htm
Indeed. it took a while for them to say those words they were almost prized out of them.IMO.
Reply to red font,
They felt it was safe seriously? did Maddie not tell her parents she or Sean woke up crying> and did Kate not say she felt uneasy about leaving the door unlocked but did it anyway- she didn't think about any other danger befitting a children left alone in an apartment? OK you buy that dragon it's second hand the man said.
Reply to green font;
Is there any good reason at all why they didn't say this on their first interview on the day they were telling the press about maddie disappearing? and do you not wonder about them distancing themslves from any blame by making out "shutters were jemmied"/"maddie was abducted"/ "it was like sitting in the garden", they never said in that first interview (press intrusion asking awkward questions) that they left the children every night to go and dine out or that the kids woke up crying. OMG what a diffferent outcome that would have been had they said all that.