UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on October 15, 2013, 01:08:28 PM
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This is an apology to SY and to the forums readers.
Have spent some time in the night thinking over this SY scenario ... and realising that I have missed some important points .... and was very probably wrong in my hasty assessment of the SY scenario of a guest walking back from the creche. In my early thoughts, and seemingly in the early thoughts of others, it seemed entirely the wrong direction
However, having thought it over well.
Let us consider.
1) Where did pertinent holiday makers place their children to be looked after during the day?
2) The alleyways. Would they be too complex for a person who didn't walk that way on a several times daily basis to a creche? They are like a rabbit warren and in three days I hadn't got them fully sorted and I was trying.
3) What would be the likely alternative route for someone who did NOT go to the reception /creche normally, so never travelled the rabbit warren?
The creches/kids clubs
There were three creches/kids Clubs that we know about.
i) The daytime creche for the very young. It would make sense that this was also the evening creche for all ages. Beds etc.
This was situated next to the main reception.
David Paynes daughter Scarlet used this club, so he knew the back, short cut route
The man in question was leaving this creche
ii) Kiddies Club for 2 - 3 year olds.
This was situated by the Tapas and tennis Courts.
If this mans child used a club, as a 2 year old, this would be the club
So this man would likely not know the back short cut route to Reception ' a veritable maze of alleyways!. Quite likely that after check in, when he arrived, he NEVER visited Reception again until his child stayed that one evening. .
iii) The older kiddies club for 4 year olds upwards. Madeleine, a few days short of 4 years old went there.
This was again situated by the main reception and the baby creche
Anyone with a child at either the baby creche or the older kiddies club, both next to the main reception would know the short cut there ... and this is the route that in an ill considered period, I rather foolishly thought this man would take.
However, there is no reason that he would consider it becos he had never had cause to go to that creche, before that evening. Sensibly he would almost certainly opt for the main road route which, by then, he would know. This is a distance of very approximately 600 metres. This would take him along up R. Primeoro de Maio and turning right into R Agostinho de Silva to exactly the spot of Jane Tanners sighting
The routes have been fairly comprehensively discussed in an earlier thread (gilet or John may be able to identify the thread)) IIRC from 5A gate to the Main Reception was 268 metres (or yards) via the warren of alleyways.
I think Anne said this man was going to 6B. The distance there would be about the same at about 268 metres.
Comparing 600 metres to 268 metres, one would not readily expect someone to take the longer route.
But having considered the likely facts, I now accept that I was very probably in error. I was too hasty.
It was an understandable error that I, and others, made. Never the less, I apologise both to SY for rejecting their theory and to the readers here.
sadie
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I don't think that makes sense sadie
I am looking at the street map on page 50 of Kate's book at this moment, and I simply do not think that this man would take the route you are suggesting ... it would involve him walking south west ( away from the resort, almost as far as the rocks
Whether he was aware of the short cut ( as used by the McCanns ) or not, he would almost certainly have followed the main road only until the junction that led directly to the tapas/pool area of the resort
From there he would have walked up the same street that Gerry and Jez were standing in
Perhaps someone can post the map
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I don't think that makes sense sadie
I am looking at the street map on page 50 of Kate's book at this moment, and I simply do not think that this man would take the route you are suggesting ... it would involve him walking south west ( away from the resort, almost as far as the rocks
Yep SW along R Direita, but TOWARDS the resort centre (Luz Centre) for about 150 metres then probably forking right along R. Joaquim Texiera.
Baptistas Supermarket was probably one of his landmarks. Now, I think he got in a muddle when he reached Baptistas. For the most direct route he should have turned right there with Baptistas to his left.
But instead his mind clocked Baptistas ... and thought " I am on the right route" and instead of turning right he carried straight on, with Baptistas to his right. When he reached the main road , R.Primeiro de Maio he knew where was and set off north.
He then then turned right (east) into R. Dr Agostinho de Silva, walked along there until he got to his apartment, and if the timing for both of them was right, crossing Jane at JT corner.
Whether he was aware of the short cut ( as used by the McCanns ) or not, he would almost certainly have followed the main road only until the junction that led directly to the tapas/pool area of the resort
From there he would have walked up the same street that Gerry and Jez were standing in
Perhaps someone can post the map
Yep he should have gone up R Dr F. Gentils Martins where Gerry and Jezz were talking, but in the dark he made a mistake, imo.
Some bits of Luz were very dark when we were there in 2010.
My written word is poor but I have always excelled at maps and directions ... and I found it immensely difficult to find my way around the back streets of Luz after dark
A marked map would be good.
Very difficult describing directions and places with words alone. It is all rather abstract, rather than concrete, I find. And some of these road names are real bum^^rs. How on earth do the locals manage?
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The night creche opened at 19h30. SYman had to bring his toddler there, probably carrying her. How would he, one hour and half later, have forgotten the way he took ?
Gentil Martins is one of the most obvious streets in PDL, because it's steep, leads to the ocean, passes between nice buildings, has a supermarket and only local traffic, all features that Primeiro de Maio hasn't.
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The night creche opened at 19h30. SYman had to bring his toddler there, probably carrying her. How would he, one hour and half later, have forgotten the way he took ?
Gentil Martins is one of the most obvious streets in PDL, because it's steep, leads to the ocean, passes between nice buildings, has a supermarket and only local traffic, all features that Primeiro de Maio hasn't.
Did HE take her there? Do you KNOW that, Anne?
Was it daylight when she was taken?
Was it dark when she was picked up?
Do you think the person who took her passed Baptistas supermarket?
Do you think that would be a landmark for him/her?
Did he pass Baptistas supermarket on the way back, albeit on the wrong side?
Do you think there is a possibility that his wife took the little girl, then said to him about passing Baptistas ... and he did that, but maybe not the way she intended?
So many things that have to be considered Anne, before we make judgement.
I failed to do that originally. Now that you have forewarning, I feel sure you would want to be more circumspect
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Perhaps John could post a map
I really think it's necessary for members to see how very unlikely it is for the man to have taken the route you are suggesting sadie
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I failed to do that originally. Now that you have forewarning, I feel sure you would want to be more circumspect
One's own experience is without use for others, that's why the hermit in the Tarot has a lantern that enlightens only his path.
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One's own experience is without use for others, that's why the hermit in the Tarot has a lantern that enlightens only his path.
Errm.....
Yeah, right!
If you say so................... 8**8:/:
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Is this map from the BBC news website any good?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24526934
I note that MO's check isn't on the time line too.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Here is the map which was originally posted to depict one of the two shortcuts from Main Reception/Crèche to the McCanns apartment.
(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag1/gilet2013/comp_71_zpsfb3f566d.jpg)
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Unfortunately, none of these maps shows the route SYman had to take to be able to be Bundleman.
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Unfortunately, none of these maps shows the route SYman had to take to be able to be Bundleman.
I was thinking that Anne
To paraphrase 'Jaws' ... we're gonna need a bigger map !
Even the map John kindly posted does not cover a large enough area to show the long and out of the way route from the creche that this man would have to have taken in order to be seen walking in the direction he was, by Jane
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1st 2nd 7th and 8th maps here may help, left hand column
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MAPS.htm
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I was thinking that Anne
To paraphrase 'Jaws' ... we're gonna need a bigger map !
Even the map John kindly posted does not cover a large enough area to show the long and out of the way route from the creche that this man would have to have taken in order to be seen walking in the direction he was, by Jane
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id94.html
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1st 2nd 7th and 8th maps here may help, left hand column
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/MAPS.htm
Yes, thanks Red ... the 8th one down ( entitled Smith sighting plan ) shows the very long route the father would need to have taken
I just can't fathom him having done that ...
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Yes, thanks Red ... the 8th one down ( entitled Smith sighting plan ) shows the very long route the father would need to have taken
I just can't fathom him having done that ...
It does seem extraordinary I agree....if a buggy was used it might be slightly different
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It does seem extraordinary I agree....if a buggy was used it might be slightly different
There was no buggy according to Jane ... and he was carrying the child across his arms ( all that way ) and despite the child being uncovered and barefoot she did not wake up during such a long walk on a cold and blustery night
It is quite an odd story all in all
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There was no buggy according to Jane ... and he was carrying the child across his arms ( all that way ) and despite the child being uncovered and barefoot she did not wake up during such a long walk on a cold and blustery night
It is quite an odd story all in all
I know, I was just saying you might travel such a long distance with a child in a buggy rather than carrying them and in that odd stupid position.....and I dont buy the story of any parent on holiday there getting lost, wandering about or not finding out the quickest route to the creche and back home!
Thats what people on holiday do, check these things out early doors..thats why I found Redwoods explanation odd, perhaps he got it wrong and the child was being taken TO the creche
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I know, I was just saying you might travel such a long distance with a child in a buggy rather than carrying them and in that odd stupid position.....and I dont buy the story of any parent on holiday there getting lost, wandering about or not finding out the quickest route to the creche and back home!
Thats what people on holiday do, check these things out early doors..thats why I found Redwoods explanation odd, perhaps he got it wrong and the child was being taken TO the creche
It would certainly make more sense
Having said that, 10pm is a bit late to be taking a two year to a creche ( what time did it shut anyway ... do we know ? )
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He could have taken Texeira and missed GMartins, but imo he would have noticed after a few meters (large car park on the right, supermarket one) and gone backwards.
If he had missed Texeira and gone down Direita up to the church, either he would have gone backwards or taken Primeiro de Maio.
Between Texeira and Primeiro de Maio there's an unbuilt space which is not a street but a kind of car park. I don't think he would attempt to pass through.
It is far more reasonable to think that SYman went up GMartins. He was close to Bundleman, yes, in space if not in time, but he wasn't him.
SY saved Ms Tanner's face (except for the pjs) but they've put in danger Mr McCann because now the abductor has no reason to lose time between 5A and the meeting with the Smiths.
Thanks Xtina, you can see the routes on that map, but the streets have no names.
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It would certainly make more sense
Having said that, 10pm is a bit late to be taking a two year to a creche ( what time did it shut anyway ... do we know ? )
No the sighting was around 9 15 not 10... The creche shut at 11 30
But I agree even at 9 15 ish seems a bit late
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perhaps he got it wrong and the child was being taken TO the creche
No, Bundleman was certainly not going to the creche, if so he would have turned right in GMartins.