Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 10:27:12 AM
Title: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 10:27:12 AM
Why did the McCann's request for keys and receive them several days later to this church after the disappearance of Madeleine? What did Kate McCann write in her book "Madeleine" about how they got and the reason for getting the keys to this church? Press and media won't be following you into a church so why would you need the keys? I have my own conclusions but I would like to hear your thoughts please.
Why did the McCann's request for keys and receive them several days later to this church after the disappearance of Madeleine? What did Kate McCann write in her book "Madeleine" about how they got and the reason for getting the keys to this church? Press and media won't be following you into a church so why would you need the keys? I have my own conclusions but I would like to hear your thoughts please.
well seeing as you posted this up and are asking the question ..then its only manners you should post your thoughts first ...just saying
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 10:42:14 AM
Smithman the main suspect at present when he passed the Smith family turned and was going in the direction of that church on the night Madeleine went missing. If anyone doesn't think that is important then they are living on another planet.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on October 20, 2013, 10:43:06 AM
It seems it may not have been the McCanns idea to have the keys to the church. I presume they were given the keys so that they could go there whenever they felt the need. My church is always open and sometimes its nice to go in and sit quietly - even for an atheist like me. ----------------------------------------------
Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007
Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco
The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group.
This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy. He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.
On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.
He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.
He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.
He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.
He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.
When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.
He never talked to them alone.
He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.[/b
]He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 10:47:58 AM
I doubt they are going to hand over keys unless a request is made. Was a request made by the McCann's to John Geraghty? We need to know the answer to this question. What does the book say?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benita on October 20, 2013, 10:53:07 AM
I doubt they are going to hand over keys unless a request is made. Was a request made by the McCann's to John Geraghty? We need to know the answer to this question. What does the book say?
we need to know answers to many things are we gunna get them on here ...no!
benice has just posted ..why they had a key ..read it
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 10:55:23 AM
What does the book say?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: jassi on October 20, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
I doubt they are going to hand over keys unless a request is made. Was a request made by the McCann's to John Geraghty? We need to know the answer to this question. What does the book say?
I don't think you're going to get an answer to that , unless Geraghty is going to volunteer one.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benita on October 20, 2013, 10:58:00 AM
The hypocrite catholic side of me says that a good catholic prays anywhere, even in your bathtub.
The use of the church for personal means was an heresy. The inhabitants of the village didn't take it well. They felt it was an abuse. The church belongs to the people and not to a carer that chose to give the key to the McCann without consulting anyone, not even the priest (the Priest Pacheco never authorized for them to have the key, he just accepted it after the fact).
Nobody knows what they did inside the church, and whatever it was it didn't have anything to do with the search for their daughter but only with a PR maneuver to show them as devoted.
In fact they rarely used the church, at the most they went there twice, but they wanted the public to believe that they went there frequently.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on October 20, 2013, 11:22:36 AM
The hypocrite catholic side of me says that a good catholic prays anywhere, even in your bathtub.
The use of the church for personal means was an heresy. The inhabitants of the village didn't take it well. They felt it was an abuse. The church belongs to the people and not to a carer that chose to give the key to the McCann without consulting anyone, not even the priest.
Nobody knows what they did inside the church, and whatever it was it didn't have anything to do with the search for their daughter but only with a PR maneuver to show them as devoted.
In fact they rarely used the church, at the most they went there twice, but they wanted the public to believe that they went there frequently.
I don't believe for a second that the inhabitants of the village were as meanspirited and unchristian as you suggest - in fact all the evidence showed the opposite and they could not have been kinder and more sympathetic towards to the McCanns.
How nasty to even suggest the Portugese people could be so petty and heartless.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 11:25:29 AM
"He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned." Not good is it? Not even a guess lol.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on October 20, 2013, 11:43:30 AM
It makes a lot of difference if they still had the keys when they rented that hire car.
I believe that the keys were dropped off by someone else after they left Portugal. IIRC that upset the priest somewhat.
Father Pacheco appeared to virtually vanish from the public eye in the weeks after Gerry and Kate were made arguidos - or official suspects.
The pair left Portugal without saying goodbye and handed the church keys to another clergyman.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id66.html
That quote is from the Daily Mail, how truthful or accurate it is, I wouldn't like to speculate.
....Edited to include link.........
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Mr Gray on October 20, 2013, 12:18:57 PM
Praia da Luz priest denies reports in UK newspaper Updated: 13-Dec-2007
By: CECÍLIA PIRES
cecilia@portugalresident.com
PRAIA DA Luz church is receiving the image of Our Lady of Fátima on Monday, December 18, in a special visit to the region and this is the reason why ribbons and images of Madeleine McCann have been temporarily removed from its interior, according to father José Manuel Pacheco, the local catholic priest .
Praia da Luz’s community “has not forgotten the little British girl and special prayers are still being held every Friday,” father José Manuel Pacheco told The Resident.
The catholic priest was reacting to reports in the UK’s Daily Express in which he is said to have “ordered the removal of scores of green and yellow ribbons which were put up as a symbol of hope in the days after Madeleine vanished”. The British newspaper quotes a “close friend to the priest” as saying that the latter “can’t even hear the Madeleine case mentioned without becoming irate.” A statement that father José Manuel Pacheco describes as “barbarity” and a “lie”. “I do not know who that ‘friend’ might be, but I doubt such person is my friend”, he told The Resident.
Father José Manuel Pacheco ensures that “priests have no power to order anything in our churches. We have an entity for that, which is the Conselho Pastoral, where the catholic community is represented”.
Church key
With regards to the key to Praia da Luz church that the McCanns were given after Madeleine went missing, so that the couple could pray in privacy, “that was a decision made by the Conselho Pastoral and I only knew about it three days later”.
Father José Manuel Pacheco said: “Madeleine McCann’s parents know that we support them and that is the most important thing. The family kept very close and good relations with the church and its representatives in Praia da Luz”.
I don't believe for a second that the inhabitants of the village were as meanspirited and unchristian as you suggest - in fact all the evidence showed the opposite and they could not have been kinder and more sympathetic towards to the McCanns.
How nasty to even suggest the Portugese people could be so petty and heartless.
It was not a question of being meanspirited, but a question of having their church usurped for means that were kept secret from them. I am catholic because my parents baptized me, and I was raised with moral values that can be identified with Christian morality, but I am very hypocrite in how the Church is used to excuse immoral actions.
The Portuguese people were used immorally and when they started to perceive that, they revolted. Not one single portuguese person (I believe) wishes ill for Madeleine. In fact I believe that everyone would wish that Madeleine had been found sound and well immediately after the alarm. It was also many portuguese people in Aldeia da Luz and from many towns around that took weeks of their work to search for that child, when their parents chose to go on with their training habits and press conferences.
Even today, nothing would please more the portuguese people than finding Madeleine alive and well. But we know that is impossible and so, finding out what happened to her would be a blessing.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: carlymichelle on October 20, 2013, 12:44:44 PM
It was not a question of being meanspirited, but a question of having their church usurped for means that were kept secret from them. I am catholic because my parents baptized me, and I was raised with moral values that can be identified with Christian morality, but I am very hypocrite in how the Church is used to excuse immoral actions.
The Portuguese people were used immorally and when they started to perceive that, they revolted. Not one single portuguese person (I believe) wishes ill for Madeleine. In fact I believe that everyone would wish that Madeleine had been found sound and well immediately after the alarm. It was also many portuguese people in Aldeia da Luz and from many towns around that took weeks of their work to search for that child, when their parents chose to go on with their training habits and press conferences.
Even today, nothing would please more the portuguese people than finding Madeleine alive and well. But we know that is impossible and so, finding out what happened to her would be a blessing.
oh luz didnt you know according to the mcanns and pros maddie is alive and unharmed???
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benita on October 20, 2013, 01:04:07 PM
It was not a question of being meanspirited, but a question of having their church usurped for means that were kept secret from them. I am catholic because my parents baptized me, and I was raised with moral values that can be identified with Christian morality, but I am very hypocrite in how the Church is used to excuse immoral actions.
The Portuguese people were used immorally and when they started to perceive that, they revolted. Not one single portuguese person (I believe) wishes ill for Madeleine. In fact I believe that everyone would wish that Madeleine had been found sound and well immediately after the alarm. It was also many portuguese people in Aldeia da Luz and from many towns around that took weeks of their work to search for that child, when their parents chose to go on with their training habits and press conferences.
Even today, nothing would please more the portuguese people than finding Madeleine alive and well. But we know that is impossible and so, finding out what happened to her would be a blessing.
I have seen no evidence at all to say that anyone thought their church had been usurped. If they did then that would mean they WERE petty and heartless - you can't have it both ways Luz. I think your remarks are libellous to the Portuguese locals who could not have been kinder to the McCanns.
I see you can't resist having a dig at the parents. Their press conferences as you call them were to appeal for help in finding their missing daughter. Why would any decent person find that unacceptable?
So they took exercise - so what? Did you expect them to spend the rest of their lives indoors. It's not as if they could have joined in with the searching - they would have needed a police escort to protect them from the hundreds of reporters lying in wait for them. The advice of the police to parents of missing children is always to stay at home and let the experts get on with the job, knowing that the parents are where they are most easy to contact if necessary.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 01:42:28 PM
You should try stand up and please keep them coming. No I don't believe Smithman walked into that church with Madeleine on the night that she went missing and stored her in a fridge. But I do believe she was in close proximity.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benita on October 20, 2013, 01:56:46 PM
You should try stand up and please keep them coming. No I don't believe Smithman walked into that church with Madeleine on the night that she went missing and stored her in a fridge. But I do believe she was in close proximity.
really ..any proof of that ? can you back it up ?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 02:20:45 PM
That's why they want eye witnesses who saw Smithman on the night in question to come forward so they can locate his movements and whereabouts. Smithman has never come forward. Kate McCann hasn't got Smithman as a main key sighting in her book. This is unbelievable! A main suspect seen carrying a child at the same time as Madeleine's disappearance. They ask for eye witnesses to come forward in her book and offer information but not for Smithman it seems!
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benita on October 20, 2013, 02:25:49 PM
That's why they want eye witnesses who saw Smithman on the night in question to come forward so they can locate his movements and whereabouts. Smithman has never come forward. Kate McCann hasn't got Smithman as a main key sighting in her book. This is unbelievable! A main suspect seen carrying a child at the same time of Madeleine's disappearance. They ask for eye witnesses to come forward in her book and offer information but not for Smithman it seems!
oh you read the book then well done ..that was quick >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 02:27:42 PM
I told you in an earlier post that I read the amazon preview yesterday and I read the key sightings section. I was astounded there was no Smithman or even the name Smith in the index of the book.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: jassi on October 20, 2013, 02:29:38 PM
That's why they want eye witnesses who saw Smithman on the night in question to come forward so they can locate his movements and whereabouts. Smithman has never come forward. Kate McCann hasn't got Smithman as a main key sighting in her book. This is unbelievable! A main suspect seen carrying a child at the same time of Madeleine's disappearance. They ask for eye witnesses to come forward in her book and offer information but not for Smithman it seems!
One must assume that Kate believed, for whatever reason, that Tannerman was the one and only sighting of the abductor and so she felt able to discount Smithman. Now that that possibility has been discarded by none other then the SY investigation team, she can no longer believe this.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 20, 2013, 02:36:36 PM
Sorry to be blunt but that is BS! Any parent would include all possible main sightings as he could be the one. The time when this sighting happened is a dead giveaway to anyone!
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Luz on October 20, 2013, 02:43:14 PM
I have seen no evidence at all to say that anyone thought their church had been usurped. If they did then that would mean they WERE petty and heartless - you can't have it both ways Luz. I think your remarks are libellous to the Portuguese locals who could not have been kinder to the McCanns.
I see you can't resist having a dig at the parents. Their press conferences as you call them were to appeal for help in finding their missing daughter. Why would any decent person find that unacceptable?
So they took exercise - so what? Did you expect them to spend the rest of their lives indoors. It's not as if they could have joined in with the searching - they would have needed a police escort to protect them from the hundreds of reporters lying in wait for them. The advice of the police to parents of missing children is always to stay at home and let the experts get on with the job, knowing that the parents are where they are most easy to contact if necessary.
It's you that place the parents in places where they shouldn't have been.
They took exercises, so what? They paraded in arranged schedules with only foreign newspapers and TVs, and so what? They had family and friends spending time in the Agarve, having spa sessions, suntan afternoons, tennis lessons, while the twins were still dumped at the creche(until hey had to be suspended due to excessive media attention to the other kids), and so what?
And you still ask SO WHAT?!!!!
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: jassi on October 20, 2013, 02:43:24 PM
Sorry to be blunt but that is BS! Any parent would include all possible main sightings as he could be the one. The time when this sighting happened is a dead giveaway to anyone!
Yes, you might expect that, but obviously not in the case of the McCanns. Does he get a mention on their website ?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Luz on October 20, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
Benice, just try to imagine:
You took a week from your work to look for a lost child and whenever you pass the Ocean Club you see the parents of the said child, family members and friends, relaxing around the pool, laughing and having a nice time, apparently.
What would you feel?!
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Carana on October 20, 2013, 03:04:31 PM
You took a week from your work to look for a lost child and whenever you pass the Ocean Club you see the parents of the said child, family members and friends, relaxing around the pool, laughing and having a nice time, apparently.
What would you feel?!
What would you have done differently to alleviate stress if your family member had gone missing with no sign of her being found in the short-term, with other young children who needed a stable environment?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Luz on October 20, 2013, 03:07:25 PM
the OP was about the church.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Carana on October 21, 2013, 09:48:23 AM
The hypocrite catholic side of me says that a good catholic prays anywhere, even in your bathtub.
The use of the church for personal means was an heresy. The inhabitants of the village didn't take it well. They felt it was an abuse. The church belongs to the people and not to a carer that chose to give the key to the McCann without consulting anyone, not even the priest (the Priest Pacheco never authorized for them to have the key, he just accepted it after the fact).
Nobody knows what they did inside the church, and whatever it was it didn't have anything to do with the search for their daughter but only with a PR maneuver to show them as devoted.
In fact they rarely used the church, at the most they went there twice, but they wanted the public to believe that they went there frequently.
You are stating that as fact. Could you back it up, please, Luz?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Carana on October 21, 2013, 11:39:19 AM
Is that the building Mike Tesko reckons Hewlett slept in? @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 22, 2013, 09:58:46 PM
I don't know anything about Hewlett or Tesko's story but that derelict building looked interesting being opposite the church. Just looked Hewlett up and found this article:
"The 64-year-old pervert was living just an hour's drive from where the youngster disappeared in the Algarve in May 2007 while she was on holiday with her parents."
COPS were last night poised to launch a dramatic dig for Madeleine McCann ? outside the Portuguese church where her parents prayed for her safe return.
They fear the three-year-old’s body was stashed under ROADWORKS, then later moved in her family’s hire car.
The theory was outlined in evidence handed to a judge yesterday ? naming mum Kate and dad Gerry, both doctors aged 39, as suspects in Maddie’s disappearance on holiday in the Algarve.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 23, 2013, 07:43:54 PM
Too late doing it in September but did the dig happen?
COPS were last night poised to launch a dramatic dig for Madeleine McCann ? outside the Portuguese church where her parents prayed for her safe return.
They fear the three-year-old’s body was stashed under ROADWORKS, then later moved in her family’s hire car.
The theory was outlined in evidence handed to a judge yesterday ? naming mum Kate and dad Gerry, both doctors aged 39, as suspects in Maddie’s disappearance on holiday in the Algarve.
September, are you having a laugh?
Didn't you notice the date, on the head of the paper?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 23, 2013, 09:18:27 PM
Published 12 SEP 2007. You didn't see it.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: DCI on October 23, 2013, 09:26:10 PM
I doubt they are going to hand over keys unless a request is made. Was a request made by the McCann's to John Geraghty? We need to know the answer to this question. What does the book say?
I always wonder when people ask "what does the book say" why they simply don't make the effort themselves and actually read the book.
Can you please explain why you are demanding others tell you and you are not willing to bother reading for yourself?
If you need to know the answer then why not make the effort to find it instead of demanding the information from others?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: gilet on October 24, 2013, 03:29:08 AM
The hypocrite catholic side of me says that a good catholic prays anywhere, even in your bathtub.
The use of the church for personal means was an heresy. The inhabitants of the village didn't take it well. They felt it was an abuse. The church belongs to the people and not to a carer that chose to give the key to the McCann without consulting anyone, not even the priest (the Priest Pacheco never authorized for them to have the key, he just accepted it after the fact).
Nobody knows what they did inside the church, and whatever it was it didn't have anything to do with the search for their daughter but only with a PR maneuver to show them as devoted.
In fact they rarely used the church, at the most they went there twice, but they wanted the public to believe that they went there frequently.
If as you claim, you are a Catholic then you should know that there is a very great tendency among Catholics to wish to pray in certain locations. In Fatima or Lourdes for example. In the presence of the Blessed Sacrament inside a church for another example. I am surprised you are not aware of this.
As for heresy. The idea that a church (when normally it would be locked) should be made available to a person in distress who needs to pray quietly is as far from heresy as can be imagined. As a Catholic I would have thought you might have some notion of the real meaning of the word, heresy. It does not in any way refer to a person's desire to pray. There was no exclusion of others as I understand the aim was that the McCanns (Kate in particular) could use the church when it was normally locked and empty.
It is merely your very biased opinion that the purpose of the visits to the church were nothing to do with a genuine desire to pray. You have no idea of what was in the mind of another person, one who you do not even know, and by showing such bias you rather damage your case.
I echo the question posed to you by another poster. Your statement as a fact that the McCanns only used the Church twice is unsupported. Is that just opinion as well or are you going to present some evidence? Unless you provide such evidence then we can take it there is none can't we?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 24, 2013, 12:16:25 PM
It was the fist time I read devotes had been given a key to have the church all for themselves. Then I read that Mrs McCann had also the key of her Rothley church ! That doesn't sound very democratic. Why don't they open the churches 24hours a day ? Of course items would be stolen but vanity of vanities all is vanity says the Ecclesiastes.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on October 24, 2013, 11:00:40 PM
It was the fist time I read devotes had been given a key to have the church all for themselves. Then I read that Mrs McCann had also the key of her Rothley church ! That doesn't sound very democratic. Why don't they open the churches 24hours a day ? Of course items would be stolen but vanity of vanities all is vanity says the Ecclesiastes.
Bludy L Anne, you have lost me there again
Can you pls put it in plain English. Thanks
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: gilet on October 24, 2013, 11:36:41 PM
It was the fist time I read devotes had been given a key to have the church all for themselves. Then I read that Mrs McCann had also the key of her Rothley church ! That doesn't sound very democratic. Why don't they open the churches 24hours a day ? Of course items would be stolen but vanity of vanities all is vanity says the Ecclesiastes.
Your question is followed in your own post in part by the answer.
But the problem is not only that things would be stolen, the eventual vandalism would make the prospect utterly untenable.
I really do think that you have an odd view about churches. It really is not uncommon for lay people to hold keys, flower arrangers, sidesmen, vergers, sacristans, people who conduct prayer groups, individuals who benefit from prayer even.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on October 25, 2013, 01:02:53 AM
You appear not to understand that some individuals may benefit from prayer. Are you not aware of the calming effects that prayer (or in some faiths, meditation even) can have? Are you not aware that some people turn to prayer when a crisis befalls their family?
These are people who benefit from prayer. Some prefer private prayer, some more public prayer. The churches do their best to provide for all.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2013, 06:45:49 PM
[Hey Pegasus, the keys to the church were received on Tue 8 May. Have you any plans of the church? What's underneath it? Were there any reports of any bad smells there or just rumours?] (Pathfinder)
I am not sure if the keys were given Tue or a previous day. They were visited by both denominations sooner than that. Have no plans of church and no indication of catacombs cellars or secret tunnels. There are several modern circular drain outlets on the shore. On the rocks at the small beach below the fortaleza there is an old big rectangular drain outlet there is a photo somewhere of two exsoldier searchers checking it but I don't know where it drains from. (Pegasus)
[Thanks. I've seen the pipe picture with the soldiers. I'm wanting to know if there is a cellar or access to a room underneath the church? Sat 12 May Madeleine's 4th Birthday at Church. Any reports of bad smells?
p.s. Sat 5th May when Patricia Cameron arrived. She said they had a car to use. It would be interesting to know which car that was in light of the Carolyn Kish discrepancy sighting on the 7 May?] (Pathfinder)
[At the small beach it is not a pipe, it looks much older, see the last outlet here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id340.html] (Pegasus)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 07:06:34 PM
The channel cut in the rock, where CS and ST are walking, in you can see in aerial photos IIRC.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2013, 09:06:11 PM
Will check that later. Thanks. The following passage is interesting in relation to a tunnel. Would like to know what's under that church if poss?
"On Tuesday 8 May, we said an emotional goodbye to the family and friends who were leaving us, including my parents and Gerry’s mum. It was so sad, but we all knew it was for the best. We had been given a key to the church so that we could go there and pray whenever we wished. Tuesday evening (8th May) while we were praying privately at Nossa Senhora da Luz, Gerry had an extraordinary spiritual experience. He suddenly became aware of a long tunnel with light at the far end of it. He felt himself enter the tunnel and, as he went deeper and deeper inside, it became wider and wider and brighter and brighter. He had never known anything like this before and he immediately interpreted it as a sign urging us to do absolutely everything within our power to find Madeleine ourselves. From that moment he was convinced that we needed to take the initiative to mobilise all the resources available to us."
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 09:24:57 PM
For fuller account of branching tunnel see "Hope, strength, courage, 16 June 2007" at http://www.mccannfiles.com/id1.html P.S. This article is based on an interview in Amsterdam, early June 2007. It also refers to the keys.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 13, 2013, 12:09:42 AM
You're correct pegasus.
As Mr McCann explained: "We couldn't get out of heads that she was likely to be dead and we were truly, truly grieving. But then the psychologist said, ‘Is there any other possibility?' And then he started channelling negatives and saying, ‘Of course there are other possibilities.' And we started to see that."
The second was meeting the local parish priest, Fr José Manuel Pacheco. Fr Zé, as he is popularly known, is a great favourite with the McCanns: warm, genial and inspiring. He speaks fluent English and Mr McCann said he had worked hard to bring together the British expatriate community and Portuguese Catholics.
It was Fr Zé at that first Sunday Mass who exhorted them to have hope, strength and courage. That evening he came to say the rosary with them at their apartment and invited his parishioners as well. Was it all a bit much?
"Not at all, it was lovely. There were about 50 women and they brought the children. It was a huge comfort," she says.
The parish priest also gave the McCanns the keys to the church so that they could pray there alone in the evenings. It was while they were doing this early in the first week that Mr McCann had an extraordinary experience.
"When I was praying I started thinking of all the things that were happening. There were lots and lots of ideas in my head and how we could make things better and I was really feeling very down and not sure which way to proceed. I had this mental image of being in a tunnel and instead of the light at the end of the tunnel being extremely narrow and a distant spot, the light opened up and the tunnel got wider and wider and went in many different directions. I talked to you [Kate] about it and said, ‘I am not prepared to pursue one path. We are going to do everything in our power to influence things.'
"It was almost like something - I am not saying it was the Holy Spirit - came into me and gave me that image. That is when I really felt I had a clear path."
Was it a religious experience?
"I can't say it was a vision because I am not clear what a vision is but I had a mental image and it certainly helped me decide. I became a man possessed that night. The next day I was up at dawn, making phone calls."
A few days later the McCanns attended an evening vigil for Madeleine at Fr Zé's church organised by the local scouts. The service, in a church lit by candles, was, they say, the most uplifting they had ever been to. There came a point where the congregation was asked to unravel a large ball of green wool passing it from one person to another until it encompassed the entire gathering. The very memory of this service seems to give the McCanns a lift and they complete each other's sentences as they remember it.
"We sang a song, and we just kept singing the same verse, ‘Nothing will separate us', over and over again and the church was completely overflowing. The wool finally got all the way round and the message was ‘nothing will separate us and we are all united'. We were joined in this. As we were leaving the people just kept giving us flowers."
The McCanns' campaign has involved every possible avenue being used to raise the profile of Madeleine. There has been a certain resentment about it but Kate McCann says they have been careful to stress they are not the only parents who have suffered in this way.
"Madeleine is incredibly precious to us. Since this happened we have been made more aware of how many missing children there are. It is awful that we didn't know the scale of it before. Madeleine is as special to us as other children are to their parents."
Criticism of the McCanns' high-profile strategy followed their trips to Fatima, Rome and elsewhere. The couple were astonished that their request to meet the Pope was granted immediately after they contacted Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. The cardinal told them he would do the same for anyone in their situation.
"These comments from people like the cardinal really helped sustain us. We know the criticism is small but when you are clinging to positives and hope and prayer, criticism does hit home quite hard when you would normally shrug it off."
The visit to Rome involved the use of a private jet supplied by the retail multimillionaire Sir Philip Green. While the McCanns realised that using the plane could generate negative reactions they felt they had to be consistent in accepting every genuine offer of help, no matter how large or small. Private jets, they pointed out, shorten considerably the time they have to spend away from the twins.
The hardest thing to ask these parents who have prayed so fervently for their daughter is how they will feel about their faith if she is not returned. Mr McCann was first to respond. "If we don't get Madeleine back alive and well, I am sure our faith will be severely tested. At the end of it, we will still have our faith and we will also have comfort that Madeleine will be looked after. We haven't dwelt on that but I think that is what we will be left with. Our friends, our family, the Church have really rallied round. I think that's the key thing for me."
Then his wife spoke: "I have considered that as well and I have felt guilty asking, ‘Will this make or break my faith?' And yet at the same time you could argue that what's happened in the first place could make or break your faith and it hasn't. It's done the opposite. It has given us hope and strength."
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 13, 2013, 12:18:29 AM
Oh no it's the sunday express so it could be rubbish.
Tunnels beneath resort may be clue to mystery
By James Murray
Sunday May 3, 2009
Secret tunnels beneath the Portuguese seaside town where Madeleine McCann vanished two years ago today may hold the key to her disappearance.
The tunnels, dating back to Roman times, have never been thoroughly searched, despite repeated requests.
Documents in Portuguese police files, published today for the first time, suggest a vital line of inquiry was ignored and have led to fresh calls for a proper investigation into the tunnels.
A British woman wrote to UK detectives saying: "There are six to eight tunnels under Praia da Luz that the PJ [Portuguese police] have not searched. There is a tunnel under the church, there are tunnels under Estrela da Luz apartments. These have not been searched.
"The archaeologist involved with these tunnels was arrested as an abuser in the Casa Pia case but later released [this was a notorious child abuse scandal centring on orphanages in Lisbon].
"Does this not send alarm bells ringing? Something not right in Portugal. Why are the PJ not searching these tunnels and the church?"
Asked to send more details to Detective Constable John Hughes of Leicestershire Police, she told him the Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz, where the McCanns stayed, was built around Roman ruins that were part of a small fishing settlement in the third to fifth centuries.
There is also a Roman burial site and ruins include an aqueduct, wells, fish salting tanks, the remains of a Roman bathhouse and at least eight tunnels.
The woman, who declined to be named, told the Sunday Express last night: "I raised these issues a while ago because I thought they were relevant and I know the British detectives passed the information on to the Portuguese detectives but I never discovered what happened.
"As a matter of urgency there must be a proper and thorough examination of all these tunnels . It is possible the abductor may have left clues."
Her call comes as two private investigators working for Kate and Gerry McCann say they are convinced that someone living in or near Praia da Luz, where Madeleine vanished on May 3, 2007, knows what happened to her.
Retired Detective Inspector Dave Edgar, who leads the McCanns' search team, said: "There is someone local, who lives locally, who has the answer to this, and not, you know, much further than 10, 15 kilometres away from Praia da Luz.
"So you don't start an investigation in Morocco or Spain or France, or even Lisbon."
Mr Edgar and former Detective Sergeant Arthur Cowley say one key statement appears to corroborate the account the McCanns' friend Jane Tanner gave to police of a man she saw carrying a small girl near the McCanns' apartment on May 3 at around 9.10pm.
Shortly afterwards on the same night, another family also saw a man carrying a small blonde child nearby. Their descriptions of the pair were very similar to Jane Tanner's.
The McCanns' team has also found a number of statements from tourists who noticed a suspicious-looking man hanging around near the McCanns' apartment at the Ocean Club complex.
Mr Edgar told a Channel 4 documentary (Cutting Edge: Madeleine Was Here) featuring a reconstruction of the fateful night: "In my experience, random just doesn't happen. Someone just doesn't go in, a passer-by, and pick up a child and take it, these things are planned.
"So someone will have been in the vicinity of apartment 5a [the McCanns' apartment], the Ocean Club, they may even have been watching the apartment for a week or more."
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 13, 2013, 01:45:03 PM
Should this copy without reference to a Daily Mail article dated 18 OCT 2007 be posted without the PJ reaction ? 14 APENSOS V, Volume XIV Pages 29 to 50 (pdf) or 2971 TO 2992
Date: 2008/05/06
Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Paolo Rebelo
From: Ricardo Paiva
Subject: Roman Tunnels in Praia da Luz, for annexing to the case files.
Within the scope of the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, the British police recently sent this police force the emails that are annexed, containing information about the possible existence of ancient underground tunnels of Roman origin in Praia da Luz, which presumably cross the entire village and which could be the subject of investigation by this police force.
Within this context and the aim of checking the accuracy of these emails on this date Engineer Martins from the Department of Urbanism and Infrastructure from the Lagos Municipal Chamber was contacted, he immediately supplied us with a CD with the cartography of the sewerage network of Praia da Luz at underground level, which shows that there are only tunnels for rainwater evacuation. These maps were printed and are annexed to this service report.
For your information
Signed
Inspector Ricardo Paiva
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2013, 02:46:10 PM
Ricardo Paivia said it.
Must be true, then ...
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 13, 2013, 03:39:56 PM
Yes it all seems very confusing. I've read there's chambers under the roman baths. Nobody seems to know what's underneath the church, if there's even a cellar? The PJ surely must have checked underneath the church? It's all very vague on places where you should search in the first week of her disappearance.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 13, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
The bins were emptied at around 2am, when the police forces were desperately trying to find an alive Madeleine, knowing that time passing made her vital prognostic worrying.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 13, 2013, 06:03:58 PM
Yes it all seems very confusing. I've read there's chambers under the roman baths. Nobody seems to know what's underneath the church, if there's even a cellar? The PJ surely must have checked underneath the church? It's all very vague on places where you should search in the first week of her disappearance.
You have to realize that a person alerted the LC sending a copypaste of what was in a tabloid ! To spicy her e-mails, she imagined an archaeologist mixed up with the Casa Pia case. That should sound familiar to many here.... Where is she by the way ?
What could the LC do ? Forward the e-mails to the PJ (without saying the e-mailer had copypasted the tabloid, because likely they didn't know). What could the PJ do ? Certainly not risk to be criticized once more. They called a specialist whose answer is above.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2013, 07:38:28 PM
The bins were emptied at around 2am, when the police forces were desperately trying to find an alive Madeleine, knowing that time passing made her vital prognostic worrying.
2am on which day?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 13, 2013, 08:16:22 PM
Everyday, except on Sunday.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on December 13, 2013, 08:18:55 PM
The UK police..in the email...are highly critical of the Portuguese police for not searching the bins...that's a fact...you can make any excuse you want but the criticism of the Portuguese police by the uk police is a recorded fact
Which UK police? certainly not LP who wrote the email replies to shrieking "elaine" whoever she is..... see ***** below..... certainly doesnt sound like police to me
There is comment from the retired policemen and others who appeared in the c4 dispatches programme in October 07 on the page pathfinder originally posted 13/13....not sure if this is all verbatim or near enough.. I cant see the preceding page to 13/13, 12 you would think, which makes sense as the previous page of that first sentence and the copy and paste job..maybe Im looking in the wrong place
But I see no clear email from the UK LP criticising the PJ *****
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 13, 2013, 08:49:05 PM
But sounds like someone we know, a person particularly obsessed with the Casa Pia...
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 13, 2013, 08:59:15 PM
I thought there would be plans of the church in the files or someone may have informed if it has a cellar or not?
Report from 20 NOV 07:
"Portuguese detectives have searched the church in Praia da Luz where Mr and Mrs McCann prayed after Madeleine disappeared, according to reports.
Officers examined the church of Nossa Senhora da Luz and an old cemetery nearby "informally and with maximum discretion" about two weeks ago, the Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said.
They were looking for clues that would suggest the young girl's body was hidden there, the paper reported."
The medieval Church of Nossa Senhora da Luz (dedicated to ‘Our Lady of Light’) was built around 1521. As a result of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake it was badly damaged and its restoration in 1874 was funded by local contributions. In the 20th century a violent storm and the 1969 earthquake caused similar damage to the church body
"Many medieval buildings are said to have had escape tunnels"
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Redblossom on December 13, 2013, 09:08:16 PM
I thought there would be plans of the church in the files or someone may have informed if it has a cellar or not?
Report from 20 NOV 07:
"Portuguese detectives have searched the church in Praia da Luz where Mr and Mrs McCann prayed after Madeleine disappeared, according to reports.
Officers examined the church of Nossa Senhora da Luz and an old cemetery nearby "informally and with maximum discretion" about two weeks ago, the Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias said.
They were looking for clues that would suggest the young girl's body was hidden there, the paper reported."
The medieval Church of Nossa Senhora da Luz (dedicated to ‘Our Lady of Light’) was built around 1521. As a result of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake it was badly damaged and its restoration in 1874 was funded by local contributions. In the 20th century a violent storm and the 1969 earthquake caused similar damage to the church body
The foundations weren't damaged. The Algarve is a seismic area. Usually you don't notice earthquakes, especially if you're walking. But this is a reason why you shouldn't leave a little child alone. No warning, a second or two and then it lasts for a minute and can start again. Children in Portugal are trained at school about what to do in case of an earthquake.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Montclair on December 13, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Of course, it's true. He didn't say it, it was the Engineer Martins from Lagos town hall who said it. Furthermore, the respective documents were attached to his report. So, how could Ricardo Paiva lie?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on December 13, 2013, 10:28:14 PM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sahlketaylorsearch8.jpg In photo there are hundreds of small pieces of tree just inside this outlet. Is it driftwood deposited by the sea at high tide? Or has it come down the tunnel from countryside during heavy rainfall?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Redblossom on December 13, 2013, 10:33:23 PM
Of course, it's true. He didn't say it, it was the Engineer Martins from Lagos town hall who said it. Furthermore, the respective documents were attached to his report. So, how could Ricardo Paiva lie?
Just another person on ferrymans list of "liars"...best ignored
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 14, 2013, 12:04:03 AM
"Kate was going to provide us, indirectly, with indications about where her daughter’s body was to be found. Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power." (Truth of the Lie)
Doesn't anyone else think that there's something very strange going on here? Mind games? These could have been the two places she was moved to on the first night - 1st sewer pipe 6 hours later to the cliffs/rocha negra.
No mention of a psychic writing that Amsterdam letter. That certainly is interesting for further mind games.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 14, 2013, 11:02:15 AM
"Kate was going to provide us, indirectly, with indications about where her daughter’s body was to be found. Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power." (Truth of the Lie)
Strangely enough it seems Madeleine was "more dead" before the dogs popped up than after, when any mention of that not implausible hypothesis aroused vehement protests of no evidence of harm, etc.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 14, 2013, 01:40:31 PM
Strangely enough it seems Madeleine was "more dead" before the dogs popped up than after, when any mention of that not implausible hypothesis aroused vehement protests of no evidence of harm, etc.
Hi Anne, The book is getting interesting. This is before the mysterious letter which I haven't even got to yet:
"Describing a white house near a dirt track is not helpful."
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 15, 2013, 03:05:58 AM
On the 8th of May, Mrs McCann informed the LC that "a friend of a friend of an aunt of hers had a "bright vision" of Madeleine on a boat anchored in Lagos Marina". Three police officers visited the vessel Shearwater (indicated by Mrs McCann), inspected it entirely and made photographs. The boat and the crew had been known in Lagos for 8 years. The report concluded that no anomalous situation was found. But On the 20th of May, when the police tells her that a couple has informations for her, Mrs McCann, who finally realises that this is a more or less psychic couple, declares "How had the police allowed such a situation to arise?"
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: colombosstogey on December 16, 2013, 06:01:32 AM
"Kate was going to provide us, indirectly, with indications about where her daughter’s body was to be found. Thus, at the beginning of June, she informed us that the body could have been hidden in the outlet of a sewer pipe at Praia da Luz, or on the cliffs to the west of the beach, where she happened to run. She will say later that this information had been given to her by mediums possessing psychic power." (Truth of the Lie)
Doesn't anyone else think that there's something very strange going on here? Mind games? These could have been the two places she was moved to on the first night - 1st sewer pipe 6 hours later to the cliffs/rocha negra.
No mention of a psychic writing that Amsterdam letter. That certainly is interesting for further mind games.
I found it odd she could talk about the her childs dead body, yet ignored the dogs findings...
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on December 16, 2013, 08:50:50 AM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sahlketaylorsearch8.jpg In photo there are hundreds of small pieces of tree just inside this outlet. Is it driftwood deposited by the sea at high tide? Or has it come down the tunnel from countryside during heavy rainfall?
Or has it been deposited there by human hand, to prevent people going in ... and finding where the tunnel connects to?
This tunnel comes out on to the tiny western beach, where there has been much specualtion that a boat might have come in, or lain there, ready to take Madeleine way.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on December 16, 2013, 10:08:22 PM
Or has it been deposited there by human hand, to prevent people going in ... and finding where the tunnel connects to?
This tunnel comes out on to the tiny western beach, where there has been much specualtion that a boat might have come in, or lain there, ready to take Madeleine way.
There is a modern round pipe outlet a little to the east of the tiny beach, and another modern round pipe outlet a little to the west of the tiny beach, so I think this older rectangular outlet is maybe not part of the modern rainwater system. Also the many twigs maybe indicate this is water flowing not from street gullies, but from countryside? Maybe this outlet is a conduit for a stream which was built over when the town was constructed (guess). Do you know if there are any entrances looking like this on the north side of town where maybe a stream flows into a conduit and under the town?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on December 16, 2013, 10:36:16 PM
[Hey Pegasus, the keys to the church were received on Tue 8 May. Have you any plans of the church? What's underneath it? Were there any reports of any bad smells there or just rumours?] (Pathfinder)
I am not sure if the keys were given Tue or a previous day. They were visited by both denominations sooner than that. Have no plans of church and no indication of catacombs cellars or secret tunnels. There are several modern circular drain outlets on the shore. On the rocks at the small beach below the fortaleza there is an old big rectangular drain outlet there is a photo somewhere of two exsoldier searchers checking it but I don't know where it drains from. (Pegasus)
[Thanks. I've seen the pipe picture with the soldiers. I'm wanting to know if there is a cellar or access to a room underneath the church? Sat 12 May Madeleine's 4th Birthday at Church. Any reports of bad smells?
p.s. Sat 5th May when Patricia Cameron arrived. She said they had a car to use. It would be interesting to know which car that was in light of the Carolyn Kish discrepancy sighting on the 7 May?] (Pathfinder)
[At the small beach it is not a pipe, it looks much older, see the last outlet here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id340.html] (Pegasus)
When we were there in 2010, to the south of the church and very close, within its grounds, there appeared to be a large diameter circular entrance in the ground. This had a giant crude ?concrete "stopper" closing it off. It made sense that there was a tunnel underneath.
And if you examine Gearth images you will see that there is an outlet in the sea "cliff" which appears to be in more or less in line. However this outlet may have nothing to do with the vertical shaft (I believe) beneath that "stopper".
I did not measure the diameter of the top of the "shaft" but I would guestimate from memory that it was about 2' 6" diameter, cos it was quite sizeable. The stopper was immense and would take several men to roll it away.
To the north of the church is a tiny little cemetery. That also is within the grounds of the church
The whole area is quite compact.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on December 16, 2013, 11:41:15 PM
[SNIP] On the rocks at the small beach below the fortaleza there is an old big rectangular drain outlet there is a photo somewhere of two exsoldier searchers checking it but I don't know where it drains from. (Pegasus)
[At the small beach it is not a pipe, it looks much older, see the last outlet here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id340.html] (Pegasus)
This tunnel comes out on to the small rocky beach where there was much speculation that a boat may have been lying, or one may have come in for pick up. The channel you see was almost certianly natural, NOT cut, and it may well travel in for a really good distance. In which case I wonder which buildings might it have linked to?
1) The Fortaleza? which was an expensive looking restaurant when we were there? Old forts do sometimes have ancient tunnels radiating out 2) The Bull pub? If it was used for smuggling this could have been the link to it. 3) The house adjacent to the pub, or the house behind, on the seashore side of that house?
These natural phenomenas can be extremely long. In Puerto de la Cruz, Tenerife, [which is volcanic in origin, as I believe PdL is] there is a rift in the ground where one massive area of the ground is raised about 15 stories high, for over a quarter of a mile. This rift is running in a more or less straight line If the tunnel that we see the entrance to, went back that far in a straight line, it would reach Ocean Club apartments passing Sergie Malinkas place en route.
I must make it clear that I am not a geologist.
I am only speculating, but I do wonder why the entrance has been filled with branches ... Is it something to do with Madeleines abduction? .... is it to stop people tracing the tunnel back to its source? .... to where she vanished out of sight?
...... and there are other things about this that I haven't the time, energy, or inclination to go into at present.
Several months ago, I worked with someone else on this and I need help from that person, before I can progress any further. It will be after Christmas if we decide to share.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on December 17, 2013, 01:06:42 AM
Thankyou Sadie for all that information especially about the channel in the rock. Yes now I think you may be correct that the channel is natural (and I was wrong to assume it was cut by humans). I am guessing that before the modern town was built, a stream from higher ground in the north followed this natural fault in the rock, to get to the sea, and later when the modern town was built, the stream was built over, making it a stream in a tunnel under the town. But it is only a guess.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 17, 2013, 01:00:43 PM
That's not far from the church.
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4483/55ye.jpg)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: icabodcrane on December 17, 2013, 06:15:26 PM
Or has it been deposited there by human hand, to prevent people going in ... and finding where the tunnel connects to?
This tunnel comes out on to the tiny western beach, where there has been much specualtion that a boat might have come in, or lain there, ready to take Madeleine way.
How do you know where this tunnel ( if that is what it is ) 'comes out' ?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 17, 2013, 08:09:22 PM
Thankyou Sadie for all that information especially about the channel in the rock. Yes now I think you may be correct that the channel is natural (and I was wrong to assume it was cut by humans). I am guessing that before the modern town was built, a stream from higher ground in the north followed this natural fault in the rock, to get to the sea, and later when the modern town was built, the stream was built over, making it a stream in a tunnel under the town. But it is only a guess.
That sounds sensible to me Pegasus.
I am thinking that the land was layered with hard and soft rock. Massive seismic/ volcanic movements rolled the layers of rock over and erosion took out the softer rock, leaving the harder rock standing.
Alternatively the tunnel could have been caused by lava tubes from a volcano. The Black headland [Rocha Negro] about 3/4 mile east of this tunnel and at the eastern end of the long beach are definitely volcanic. Probably the hill behind is riddled with tunnels formed from lava flow tubes. I checked this out with an expert, when I visited a volcano exhibition in central Lisbon in 2010.
And I know from delving in depth that the hills behind PdL are [ancient] volcanic too. Volcano lava in its white hot state can run for miles and as the outside cools it forms kind of tubes with the hot stuff running through the middle of the outer tube.. Anyone visiting Lanzarote would be amazed at the size of some of these tubes.
On Lanzarote, Caesar Manrique the artist, has built a wonderful home in some old lava tubes and it is fabulous. There is also a theatre in one gigantic tube.
I specially liked the sitting room with red leather sofas and the tree growing through the top of the burst lava bubble. It is stunning in real life. And his natural swimming pool with its natural waterfall into it. Also stunning.
There is a Volcano museum attached ... ever so interesting. Everything about Caesar Manrigue is beautiful, dramatic, and exciting. Well worth visiting all his sites on the island.
All that, soz, to tell you about what I think may have caused that tunnel with the soldiers coming out.
So maybe the stratas of the land showing and eroded away, after having been turned over by seismic heaving .... or volcanic tubes. Possibly. I repeat I am not a geologist but have an interest.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on December 19, 2013, 06:57:52 PM
The News of the World sensationalised the volcanic rock it by calling that hill above the town a volcano. Confused lots of people but it sold papers. BTW a stream running down from that big hill is partly built over in the town which converts a stretch of it into a man-made underground stream which has an inlet, and then an outlet on the big beach, and I wonder if the outlet on the small beach is a similar man-made underground stream, but that's just guessing.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 20, 2013, 12:45:29 PM
"The little church and its wonderful community had been so important to us since Madeleine’s abduction and celebrating its feast day meant a great deal to me. I badly wanted to be there, for Madeleine, and of course to say my goodbyes and express my heartfelt thanks to all our friends and supporters in the parish, especially a small andfaithful group of elderly Portuguese ladies."
"Within three days, Clarence had resigned from the Civil Service and was back in the fold, his salary generously taken care of by Brian. Being Clarence, he rolled up his sleeves and got started immediately. We were absolutely delighted – as, incidentally, were the many little old ladies who wrote to tell us that they were sleeping much better since the return of that nice ‘Mr Mitchell’."
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 05:58:24 PM
The News of the World sensationalised the volcanic rock it by calling that hill above the town a volcano. Confused lots of people but it sold papers. BTW a stream running down from that big hill is partly built over in the town which converts a stretch of it into a man-made underground stream which has an inlet, and then an outlet on the big beach, and I wonder if the outlet on the small beach is a similar man-made underground stream, but that's just guessing.
Sorry Pegasus, but if I am understanding GEarth properly there were almost certainly volcanoes up there and lava tubes up there, millions of years ago
Look at Bensafrim which is about 5 miles due North of PdL then
To see what I believe is evidence 1) Open GE 2) Type Bensafrim, Algarve in the "fly box". Click. 3) Look about 1 - 2 miles NNW of there (at about 10 oclock, 11 oclock). [You may have to change the measurements from feet or metres to miles - easy]
To measure that distance a) Click on the Short blue upright rule [in a box] at the top of the image, then b) click on Bensafrim then up in a NNW direction until about 1 1/2 miles shows.
4) Zoom right in.
NB. I suggest you use images from 2007 . I suggest this becauise, on this image as against the others, there was obviously water in the broken Lava tubes and also cloud being reflected. Because they are reflectiing white they show more clearly than in other dated images.
To Regress your image to 2007 on GEarth i) Click on the clock at the top of th GE image. A slider will come down. ii) Move the slider to 2007 and the image will change. iii) Centre on the area about 1 -2 miles NNW of Bensafrim and zoom right in.
You should see some strange looking kinda wedge shaped white patches.
Now as I explained before I think, I am NOT a geologist but have an interest in Volcanoes having visited 8 in 6 different countries, or islands.
I believe these white patches show where ancient lava tubes [tunnels] have fractured, with the rainwater mainly running down the mountainside underground in these tubes, but showing at these fractured places as white patches.
I am only using logic to base my thoughts on, along with my very limited knowledge. I am happy to be proven wrong.
Also I found this advert. Not the one I read about 4 years ago, which IIRC said 7 miles, but it is an indicator. 30 Km is nothing in regard to distance related to mountains .... and please remember Rocha Negro at Praia de Luz. That is a volcano. Seems the place could be riddled with lava tubes [tunnels]
Around Monchique, in the hills and mainly to the south the place is covered with extinct volcanoes and caldas /caldeira. This is only about 11 miles from the coast between Lagos and Portimao Not far away ! The whole range of hills seems to be volcanic in origin for many miles.
http://www.themountainbikeadventure.com/
Now I am sorry but I have to go. Up to my neck in work and drowning tbh.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2014, 12:03:58 PM
I can't rule out that Madeleine was possibly buried and hidden somewhere close to the church - put in a hole that was already there filled in and stamped - buried - done. Too many coincidences to ignore. I need to examine each possibility before discarding it.
I've read that area was a construction site when she disappeared. I've read new sewage lines were being laid, that building site was directly behind the church.
Has anyone got images of the church vicinity May 07 for closer inspection? What would Smithman have seen when he got there? I believe he got off the streets at that location where he was last seen heading towards. I want to try and see what he would've seen i.e. through his eyes if possible. Thanks.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 30, 2014, 01:37:49 PM
I can't rule out that Madeleine was possibly buried and hidden somewhere close to the church - put in a hole that was already there filled in and stamped - buried - done. Too many coincidences to ignore. I need to examine each possibility before discarding it.
I've read that area was a construction site when she disappeared. I've read new sewage lines were being laid, that building site was directly behind the church.
Has anyone got images of the church vicinity May 07 for closer inspection? What would Smithman have seen when he got there? I believe he got off the streets at that location where he was last seen heading towards. I want to try and see what he would've seen i.e. through his eyes if possible. Thanks.
You are losing your time. An ancient cemetery close to the church has even been dug. All cavities and holes have been examined right after the disappearance, when Prof Harrison was there and after the McCanns were constituted arguidos.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2014, 02:01:41 PM
You are losing your time. An ancient cemetery close to the church has even been dug. All cavities and holes have been examined right after the disappearance, when Prof Harrison was there and after the McCanns were constituted arguidos.
Thanks. Where can I read these church digging reports? Madeleine McCann can't disappear of the face of the earth and being last seen near there then it's a logical place/area to start for possible clues especially in light of getting keys. Cadaver dogs should be searching there as she may have not stayed in that buried hidden location. Be moved to inside an apartment/garage or anywhere after that.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 30, 2014, 02:31:35 PM
Thanks. Where can I read these church digging reports? Madeleine McCann can't disappear of the face of the earth and being last seen near there then it's a logical place/area to start for possible clues especially in light of getting keys. Cadaver dogs should be searching there as she may have not stayed in that buried hidden location. Be moved to inside an apartment/garage or anywhere after that.
It's in the Files... I vaguely remember to have had a look at them. The digging was in September of October. You know that for me the disappearance of Madeleine is no mystery.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2014, 02:37:30 PM
It's in the Files... I vaguely remember to have had a look at them. The digging was in September of October. You know that for me the disappearance of Madeleine is no mystery.
Thanks I will have a look. Yes I know it's not a mystery to you and that's very likely to have happened but the church has always interested me and makes me think there's more to it than meets the eye ?{)(**
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 22, 2014, 05:56:10 PM
"Madeleine is not in the church" Father Hubbard
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on February 22, 2014, 11:18:17 PM
The church has an old and small graveyard set in a kind of garden within its fairly small grounds. That is to the north of the church to be precise. THe plot of land that the church stands, encompassing the graveyard, is only about 40 metres x 45 metres including the space at the front.
There apears to be a large entrance to an underground tunnel, or something, to the south of the church. When I visited, there was a crude and massive block of concrete completely hiding the entrance. It would take a team of men to lift it, I think
Immediately opposite the Church, on the other side of the road, there is a derelict property with a garden at the rear (viewed from GE). This property is in an excellent position opposite the church and kind of front line to the little western beach /cove. It would have quite good sea views front and back, I think.
One wonders why such a property is left derelict; it must be worth a fortune.
To the South of this derelict house and also partially opposite the Church is the Fortezela restaurant. This was a fort but now appears to be an upmarket restaurant. This too has a superb position virtually front line east, west and South and backing on to the little wesrtern beach / cove
Adjacent to and immediately north of the derelict house is a smallish Alisupermarket. This is on the street corner .
Around that corner and attached to the rear of the supermarket is The Bull public House and cafe.. From the rear of The Bull, steps lead down to the little western beach/rocky cove.
Smithman could have been en route for any of these places, or even Sergies place which was only about 30 metres away from where Aofie saw him IIRC.
I doubt the supermarket and the church, tbh, .... unless the lid was off that ?tunnel ... then maybe
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on February 22, 2014, 11:22:08 PM
The church has an old and small graveyard set in a kind of garden within its fairly small grounds. That is to the north of the church to be precise. THe plot of land that the church stands, encompassing the graveyard, is only about 40 metres x 45 metres including the space at the front.
There apears to be a large entrance to an underground tunnel, or something, to the south of the church. When I visited, there was a crude and massive block of concrete completely hiding the entrance. It would take a team of men to lift it, I think
Immediately opposite the Church, on the other side of the road, there is a derelict property with a garden at the rear (viewed from GE). This property is in an excellent position opposite the church and kind of front line to the little western beach /cove. It would have quite good sea views front and back, I think.
One wonders why such a property is left derelict; it must be worth a fortune.
To the South of this derelict house and also partially opposite the Church is the Fortezela restaurant. This was a fort but now appears to be an upmarket restaurant. This too has a superb position virtually front line east, west and South and backing on to the little wesrtern beach / cove
Adjacent to and immediately north of the derelict house is a smallish Alisupermarket. This is on the street corner .
Around that corner and attached to the rear of the supermarket is The Bull public House and cafe.. From the rear of The Bull, steps lead down to the little western beach/rocky cove.-snipped -
These are the steps that several months ago I described as narrow and dangerous, shrubby overgrown, dark and dank.. Too dangerous then, imo, to carry a precious child down in the dark. I visited in june/july 2010
Was chatting with Heri. He visited more recently and now it has all changed
Newly concreted steps and wide and light, cos the overgrowing shrubs have been tamed and cut right back. What was a way down by clinging to the wall on the LHS with steps little more than a shoe size wide, [cos the rest had crumbled ] is now newly concreted and the steps are now pristine and about a metre wide.
An altogether different place now.
At the bottom of the steps is a long walled pathway which opens out on to a rocky area. When I was there, the tide must have been in, because there was no sand visible and the water was gently lapping over the flat rocks.. I didn't venture across them; they looked very slippery.
After dark, I doubt anyone carry a precious child would have gone down or ventured across those slippery looking flattish rocks
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: VIXTE on February 22, 2014, 11:57:35 PM
Regarding that church.. back in 2007 there was a strange rumour.. The father who was the father there was in his post only for a short time before Madeleine disappeared.
Prior to him, there was another father, I cannot remember his name, who was 'expelled' from the church.. there were rumours he accepted to church people who were not acceptable, only because they had money.. he also started changing the church rules.. and few other things.
ETA: Sorry, have just realised that I have picked up on an earlier page, but will leave as it is information .... and the picture is pretty too 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Montclair on March 12, 2014, 08:42:27 PM
ETA: Sorry, have just realised that I have picked up on an earlier page, but will leave as it is information .... and the picture is pretty too 8**8:/:
I looked at Google Earth and there is no cemitery next to the church in Praia da Luz, what you see is a small garden. In Portugal, cemiteries are run by the municipalities and are not usually situated next to churches as they are in England.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on March 12, 2014, 10:07:07 PM
I looked at Google Earth and there is no cemitery next to the church in Praia da Luz, what you see is a small garden. In Portugal, cemiteries are run by the municipalities and are not usually situated next to churches as they are in England.
Possibly an old long-disused graveyard next to the church was converted to a garden? Back to the lady and the boot presumably this was within 01 Jul and 06 Aug?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2014, 11:30:10 AM
Possibly an old long-disused graveyard next to the church was converted to a garden? Back to the lady and the boot presumably this was within 01 Jul and 06 Aug?
Re the graveyard, that seems reasonable to me, Pegasus.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on March 13, 2014, 07:25:53 PM
Possibly an old long-disused graveyard next to the church was converted to a garden? Back to the lady and the boot presumably this was within 01 Jul and 06 Aug?
Exactly Pegasus. That is what it seemed to be. At first I didn't realise what this strange little garden was but there were a few little "clues": Small, what I took to be headstones, with inscriptions on. It wasn't a traditional British type graveyard, but I am almost certian that at one time it was used as such.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 05, 2014, 02:11:30 PM
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2014, 12:40:26 PM
16 Sept 07
Ground works site behind church now car park (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/church/5.%20After%20the%20wall%20and%20start%20of%20works.jpg)
Trenches next to church wall (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/church/6.%20Large%20hole%20just%20after%20the%20church%20wall.jpg)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2014, 01:41:39 PM
"A witness claimed to have seen Gerry and me carrying a big black bag and acting suspiciously." (Madeleine) Who is this mysterious witness? What date/time? Where seen? Could be the missing piece.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: John on May 12, 2014, 02:23:55 PM
This is an almost impossible task not made any easier by the passage of time. After 7 years I think it is going to prove very difficult if not impossible to find anything since the ground will have settled.
This is what the car park looks like today.
(http://i.imgur.com/Mng9pML.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/47mhJL5.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2014, 09:24:48 PM
Why would he need to specifically remember? What difference does it make to anything?
When every single movement you make is being recorded by the world's media and examined by the local police - a man with such an intellect as Gerry is expected to be able to recall every single second of that time.
He blogged about it, after all. He told us what he did, every day, for months.
No mention of private keys. The blogs were taken down.
Fortunately, someone had the foresight to copy them all before they were censored, and we have his own words recorded for ever.
There are major discrepancies between what Gerry records happening, and what actually happened.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 14, 2014, 12:25:54 AM
'I was deceived' says the Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann Last updated at 10:03 18 October 2007
The Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann in the days after Madeleine vanished last night said he had been deceived, it has emerged. According to reports, Father Jose Manuel Pacheco claimed he had done nothing wrong and was simply "supporting two lost souls." But, bizarrely, he also appeared to say he had been the victim of some form of deception.
They became so close to Father Pacheco, he gave them the keys to the tiny building so they could go in to pray whenever they liked. However, his friendship with the couple appeared to spectacularly backfire after police becameconvinced Kate had told him she had killed her daughter during confession.
But he has vowed to take whatever she had said to the grave, despite being quizzed by detectives.
Father Pacheco appeared to virtually vanish from the public eye in the weeks after Gerry and Kate were made arguidos - or official suspects. The pair left Portugal without saying goodbye and handed the church keys to another clergyman.
Last week, police moved in to search the churchyard and there has been some suggestion that they may consider digging for Madeleine's body at the location.
Father Pacheco, runs two churches and teaches at three local schools, yesterday broke his silence.
According to the Daily Express, he admitted he had become too close to the couple, still official suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.
"I was deceived," he said.
"I was just doing my job supporting lost souls. I would do that with any family who were in their situation. I didn't do anything wrong.
Father Pacheco, 46, said he had felt compelled to help Kate and Gerry because of their "inconsolable grief".
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488262/I-deceived-says-Portuguese-priest-comforted-Gerry-Kate-McCann.html#ixzz31dnzsimB Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2014, 12:59:56 AM
This carpark near church area seems like an oddly risky place to choose to conceal something. Its open, very little in the way of trees and bushes and fences to protect the concealer from view.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: icabodcrane on May 14, 2014, 01:10:30 AM
This carpark near church area seems like an oddly risky place to choose to conceal something. Its open, very little in the way of trees and bushes and fences to protect the concealer from view.
To be honest I don't see the logic in burying a body within walking distance of the Ocean at all
I mean, there it is ... the perfect hiding place ... an Ocean
A bag, weighted with stones, and a body decayed over time, never to be discovered
Why would anyone dig into the hard dirt of wasteground when just metres away were the murky depths of a watery grave that would, likely, stay hidden for ever ?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 14, 2014, 02:04:12 AM
To be honest I don't see the logic in burying a body within walking distance of the Ocean at all
I mean, there it is ... the perfect hiding place ... an Ocean
A bag, weighted with stones, and a body decayed over time, never to be discovered
Why would anyone dig into the hard dirt of wasteground when just metres away were the murky depths of a watery grave that would, likely, stay hidden for ever ?
The tides at PDL mean that things can often float back to shore.
In fact the only way to dispose of a corpse effectively by sea, is to take it offshore, and dump in deep water.
Which is what they are suspected to have done, in Spain.
As far as TEMPORARY hiding places?
Kate and Gerry jogged all over that resort, every day. Alone and together. They possibly knew it like the back of their hand by day 5.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2014, 02:14:46 AM
'I was deceived' says the Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann Last updated at 10:03 18 October 2007
The Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann in the days after Madeleine vanished last night said he had been deceived, it has emerged. According to reports, Father Jose Manuel Pacheco claimed he had done nothing wrong and was simply "supporting two lost souls." But, bizarrely, he also appeared to say he had been the victim of some form of deception.
They became so close to Father Pacheco, he gave them the keys to the tiny building so they could go in to pray whenever they liked. However, his friendship with the couple appeared to spectacularly backfire after police becameconvinced Kate had told him she had killed her daughter during confession.
But he has vowed to take whatever she had said to the grave, despite being quizzed by detectives.
Father Pacheco appeared to virtually vanish from the public eye in the weeks after Gerry and Kate were made arguidos - or official suspects. The pair left Portugal without saying goodbye and handed the church keys to another clergyman.
Last week, police moved in to search the churchyard and there has been some suggestion that they may consider digging for Madeleine's body at the location.
Father Pacheco, runs two churches and teaches at three local schools, yesterday broke his silence.
According to the Daily Express, he admitted he had become too close to the couple, still official suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.
"I was deceived," he said.
"I was just doing my job supporting lost souls. I would do that with any family who were in their situation. I didn't do anything wrong.
Father Pacheco, 46, said he had felt compelled to help Kate and Gerry because of their "inconsolable grief".
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488262/I-deceived-says-Portuguese-priest-comforted-Gerry-Kate-McCann.html#ixzz31dnzsimB Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Just a conglomoration of more internet myths.
Were you aware that Father Pacheco speaks no English ... and the Drs McCann spoke no Portuguese ... makes rather a nonsense of your statement ... it would have been impossible for him to hear a confession.
Taken from the PJ files
Translation of Father Pachecos Statement to the PJ 30th October 2007
Jose Manuel Conceicao Pacheco
The first time he had contact with the McCann's was on 5th May at about 19.00. This was a personal contact with them in the Ocean Club at their apartment, but not the apartment Madeleine disappeared from. They were accompanied by members of the holiday group.
This was an important meeting for the McCann's and which had not been possible to the fact that they were busy. He knows that on the fateful night the McCann's requested the presence of a priest, but he was only informed the following morning.
On the 5th, the theme they talked about was the disappearance and he gave all possible spiritual comfort and they prayed together. They also agreed that the couple would go to the church the following day to attend a mass.
He also prayed with the McCann's on the 6th and 8th May in their apartment.
He gave them the key to the church on the 7th or 8th May upon the suggestion of John Geraghty, a resident of the parish, so that they could calmly go to the church without any media pressure. Someone from the church gave the key to John Geraghty, who then passed it on to the McCann's, with Father Pacheco's permission.
He does not remember the date upon which the key was returned.Other contact with the McCann's took place at the end of mass when he would comfort them.
He would also meet with the McCann's after they returned from their trips and remembered they were animated when they returned from Morocco as they thought they would Madeleine there. He also comforted Kate when the news of a child buried in Arau broke, as she revealed great nervousness and anxiety, thinking that the child had died.
When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.
He never talked to them alone.
He states that they showed great suffering to the loss of their daughter.
He adds that a parish bulletin was published giving spiritual, moral and human support to the couple and to other missing children. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FATHER_PACHECO.htm
Right ... that's got one myth out of the way. Now let's look at your second assertion ...
Praia da Luz priest denies reports in UK newspaper Updated: 13-Dec-2007
By: CECÍLIA PIRES
cecilia@portugalresident.com
PRAIA DA Luz church is receiving the image of Our Lady of Fátima on Monday, December 18, in a special visit to the region and this is the reason why ribbons and images of Madeleine McCann have been temporarily removed from its interior, according to father José Manuel Pacheco, the local catholic priest .
Praia da Luz’s community “has not forgotten the little British girl and special prayers are still being held every Friday,” father José Manuel Pacheco told The Resident.
The catholic priest was reacting to reports in the UK’s Daily Express in which he is said to have “ordered the removal of scores of green and yellow ribbons which were put up as a symbol of hope in the days after Madeleine vanished”. The British newspaper quotes a “close friend to the priest” as saying that the latter “can’t even hear the Madeleine case mentioned without becoming irate.” A statement that father José Manuel Pacheco describes as “barbarity” and a “lie”. “I do not know who that ‘friend’ might be, but I doubt such person is my friend”, he told The Resident.
Father José Manuel Pacheco ensures that “priests have no power to order anything in our churches. We have an entity for that, which is the Conselho Pastoral, where the catholic community is represented”.
Church key
With regards to the key to Praia da Luz church that the McCanns were given after Madeleine went missing, so that the couple could pray in privacy, “that was a decision made by the Conselho Pastoral and I only knew about it three days later”.
Father José Manuel Pacheco said: “Madeleine McCann’s parents know that we support them and that is the most important thing. The family kept very close and good relations with the church and its representatives in Praia da Luz”.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 14, 2014, 02:54:40 AM
Insane.
Father Pacheco speaks both Portugese and English fluently.
The masses he presents (and writes!) in PDL are in both languages.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: icabodcrane on May 14, 2014, 03:10:50 AM
From Kate's book, page 105 ;
"That evening the local priest, Father Jose Manuel Pachecho, who had returned to Luz, came to our apartment to introduce himself and offer hs support. My first impression was of a very cheery chap. Nothing wrong with that, but at the time his smiling face seemed out of place in the grief-laden atmosphere of our apartment."
From Kate's book, page 107 ;
"Padre Ze, whose jolly demeanour had seemed so at odds with our distress the previous evening, was in his element here ... ( Kate is speaking of Sunday Mass at the church where, she recalls, Father Pachecho was 'given a bit if a dust-down' by one of the local ladies who adjusted his robes almost as if he was an untidy schoolboy ) ... He was certainly a character, full of life and passion. Recollections of Kenny Everett in the guise of his singing pastor, Brother Lee Love, would often spring to mind in the coming weeks"
That's a pretty demeaning 'summing up' of the priest who gave them the keys to his church, isn't it ?
Why did Kate DO that ? ... why did she think it necessary to point out her perceived 'short-comings' of the priest ?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2014, 03:12:15 AM
"That evening the local priest, Father Jose Manuel Pachecho, who had returned to Luz, came to our apartment to introduce himself and offer hs support. My first impression was of a very cheery chap. Nothing wrong with that, but at the time his smiling face seemed out of place in the grief-laden atmosphere of our apartment."
From Kate's book, page 107 ;
"Padre Ze, whose jolly demeanour had seemed so at odds with our distress the previous evening, was in his element here ... ( Kate is speaking of Sunday Mass at the church where, she recalls, Father Pachecho was 'given a bit if a dust-down' by one of the local ladies who adjusted his robes almost as if he was an untidy schoolboy ) ... He was certainly a character, full of life and passion. Recollections of Kenny Everett in the guise of his singing pastor, Brother Lee Love, would often spring to mind in the coming weeks"
That's a pretty demeaning 'summing up' of the priest who gave them the keys to his church, isn't it ?
Why did Kate DO that ? ... why did she think it necessary to point out her perceived 'short-comings' of the priest ?
When I read the description I had a fond smile on my face as it is a very familiar scene for me and no doubt for many people.
I think Dr McCann has great fondness and respect for Father Pacheco ... and I find it sad you think she was pointing out his shortcomings ... that is not the picture I have.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2014, 03:29:09 AM
When questioned, he said he never heard their confessions, perhaps because they only spoke English.
Possibly it is "Insane" to take from that sentence that Father Pacheco did not speak english ... but there you are.
Insanely sensible. Also see ROB rogatory statement: language barrier when on 4th he phoned a catholic priest. The portuguese catholic church kindly allow the english-based anglican church of the algarve to share the Nossa Senhora church and to conduct their english services there.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 06, 2014, 06:42:41 PM
"Spanish TVE1 just said Gerry and a male friend were seen by the church the night Madeleine disappeared - that´s why they want to dig up somewhere near the church. I have been there but don´t know exactly where they want to dig. " (11 Sep 07)
"Me and Gerry you know I'm not sure what time it was, it was you know between three and four o' clock when, again looking for her. We went down err through past the Ocean Club reception, we went down err to the beach." (David Payne)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2014, 07:55:25 PM
'I was deceived' says the Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann Last updated at 10:03 18 October 2007
The Portuguese priest who comforted Gerry and Kate McCann in the days after Madeleine vanished last night said he had been deceived, it has emerged. According to reports, Father Jose Manuel Pacheco claimed he had done nothing wrong and was simply "supporting two lost souls." But, bizarrely, he also appeared to say he had been the victim of some form of deception.
They became so close to Father Pacheco, he gave them the keys to the tiny building so they could go in to pray whenever they liked. However, his friendship with the couple appeared to spectacularly backfire after police becameconvinced Kate had told him she had killed her daughter during confession.
But he has vowed to take whatever she had said to the grave, despite being quizzed by detectives.
Father Pacheco appeared to virtually vanish from the public eye in the weeks after Gerry and Kate were made arguidos - or official suspects. The pair left Portugal without saying goodbye and handed the church keys to another clergyman.
Last week, police moved in to search the churchyard and there has been some suggestion that they may consider digging for Madeleine's body at the location.
Father Pacheco, runs two churches and teaches at three local schools, yesterday broke his silence.
According to the Daily Express, he admitted he had become too close to the couple, still official suspects in the disappearance of their daughter.
"I was deceived," he said.
"I was just doing my job supporting lost souls. I would do that with any family who were in their situation. I didn't do anything wrong.
Father Pacheco, 46, said he had felt compelled to help Kate and Gerry because of their "inconsolable grief".
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-488262/I-deceived-says-Portuguese-priest-comforted-Gerry-Kate-McCann.html#ixzz31dnzsimB Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
What were the articles at the time in the the PT press?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2014, 01:42:45 AM
They've got to get the dogs close to the church and start investigating there because that's where Smithman really went. The church is the key to open this case wide open!
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2014, 04:38:57 PM
Your theory seems to conjecture possible concealment in a church. I remember only two cases of concealment in a church. One was below the floor, another was up in the roof, I will dig out the links for you. BTW just realised I must be Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, the only muppet with a scientific approach A.K.A. looking at behaviour of perps in past cases, a valuable method. I will post two links soon.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2014, 04:56:33 PM
@ pathfinder: Links as promised. Scotland concealment below floor with police photo of exact location http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24430345 Italy concealment in roof with police photos of exact location http://vitaliquida.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/omicidio-di-elisa-claps-trovato-il-dna.html Please note an important point: neither case involved transporting anything to a church area.
IMO the church in the current case is irrelevant, however those two links are extremely valuable because the are two examples (and there are more) of the danger of subconscious irrational assumption by the human investigator's brain.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2014, 06:27:23 PM
Thanks for sharing Pegasus. I remember that evil Tobin.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2014, 06:38:53 PM
Your theory seems to conjecture possible concealment in a church. I remember only two cases of concealment in a church. One was below the floor, another was up in the roof, I will dig out the links for you. BTW just realised I must be Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, the only muppet with a scientific approach A.K.A. looking at behaviour of perps in past cases, a valuable method. I will post two links soon.
Thanks. I don't believe she was concealed inside the church because if she was discovered the ones with the keys would be arrested.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2014, 06:44:34 PM
Thanks for sharing Pegasus. I remember that evil Tobin.
For that perp of multiple crimes, evil is an understatement, there is no word for it.
BTW do you see here the huge value of looking at past cases? Re your conjecture of concealment in a church (incorrect IMO) the past cases give you first the knowledge, yes such a thing has two precedents at least, and more important they give you two examples of exact locations which evaded detection, and two examples of the brain functioning of the perp. And more broadly, two very interesting examples of investigator brain malfunction.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2014, 06:49:34 PM
I don't believe she was concealed inside the church - see other thread. Thanks. Yes I believe it is very useful to look into similar cases.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2014, 06:56:10 PM
Thanks. I don't believe she was concealed inside the church because if she was discovered the ones with the keys would be arrested.
Oh so you are saying never concealed in church. What are you saying then? Do you mean within the perimeter of the land the church stands on? If not then it starts to look like a "church not relevant" theory. (Correctly so, JIMO)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2014, 07:06:49 PM
Oh so you are saying never concealed in church. What are you saying then? Do you mean within the perimeter of the land the church stands on? If not then it starts to look like a "church not relevant" theory. (Correctly so, JIMO)
Yes I mean in close proximity to the church e.g. there was a building site behind it at the time of her disappearance.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2014, 07:25:03 PM
Thanks for clarifying that. IMO you are too far away. Very risky taking something that distance. Inside the panel fenced area, the most north bit, is much closer (only about 100m walk, just one road to cross), totally concealed once inside the fence (opaque), and concealed from people gazing out of high buildings by trees/bushes. IMO the construction area near church you speak of has none of those qualities of proximity and concealment from sideview or overview. It is simply too far away and too open to view.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 07, 2014, 07:35:28 PM
Thanks for clarifying that. IMO you are too far away. Very risky taking something that distance. Inside the panel fenced area, the most north bit, is much closer (only about 100m walk, just one road to cross), totally concealed once inside the fence (opaque), and concealed from people gazing out of high buildings by trees/bushes. IMO the construction area near church you speak of has none of those qualities of proximity and concealment from sideview or overview. It is simply too far away and too open to view.
To be honest I would have to look at images of the area at the time but there's none in the files. Were there trenches dug etc. It makes sense for an investigator to think the beach because it's dark and safer with nobody around. They need to check the areas around the church and it looks like this may happen next week re search areas 2 and 3. But search area 1 is incorrect so who knows.
They need to check the areas around the church and it looks like this may happen next week re search areas 2 and 3. But search area 1 is incorrect so who knows.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on June 07, 2014, 09:50:15 PM
The Praia da Luz church?
Going way back, before the files were released, one of the rumours was that Eddie had been deployed in the church and had alerted.
If that's true, then it doesn't appear in anything we read on line, but I know we don't read everything on line.
The Times somehow secured an (obviously anonymous) interview with a PJ officer.
Whether it was him or not, I have no idea, but the mental image I have of this officer The Times interviewed precisely matches the mental image I have of PJ Inspector Dias, and his answer to the question about the, apparent, alert in the church remains vivid in my mind.
I imagine him gesticulating expansively as he replied:
OF COURSE the dog reacted in the church! There are FUNERALS in the church!
Perhaps I shouldn't, but I couldn't help it.
I collapsed in hysterical laughter ...
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Truth on June 07, 2014, 10:37:10 PM
Going way back, before the files were released, one of the rumours was that Eddie had been deployed in the church and had alerted.
If that's true, then it doesn't appear in anything we read on line, but I know we don't read everything on line.
The Times somehow secured an (obviously anonymous) interview with a PJ officer.
Whether it was him or not, I have no idea, but the mental image I have of this officer The Times interviewed precisely matches the mental image I have of PJ Inspector Dias, and his answer to the question about the, apparent, alert in the church remains vivid in my mind.
I imagine him gesticulating expansively as he replied:
OF COURSE the dog reacted in the church! There are FUNERALS in the church!
Perhaps I shouldn't, but I couldn't help it.
I collapsed in hysterical laughter ...
Corpses prepared for burial do not leave cadaverine
Cadaverine is produced by the gut
Prepared corpses have the acids replaced by embalming fluid = no cadaverine
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 07, 2014, 10:44:13 PM
Search area 1 was the scrubland not the wasteland. Now I'm hearing reports they're searching outside of Luz. They should be checking near the church as I believe Smithman headed there after passing the Smith family - he was going down not up. The dogs should be checking search areas 2 & 3 and the sewer pipes. I think I read that the dogs checked search area 1 back in 2007 (Edited Not checked according to Pegasus).
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 12:22:26 AM
Thanks. Near the church should be checked as he was heading in that direction. I can't believe they didn't check those areas in 2007 after the Smith sighting so they need to do it now. You've got to follow the prime suspect.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 12:43:13 AM
You can see how the outdoor areas selected by NPIA in 2007 for search by Eddie are, apart from the tiny yellow area which is is 5A garden, all in the north-east quadrant from the apartment (based IMO on a single unconcealed carrying sighting).
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 08, 2014, 12:43:34 AM
You can see how the outdoor areas selected by NPIA in 2007 for search by Eddie, apart from 5A garden, are all in the north-east quadrant from the apartment (based IMO on a single unconcealed carrying sighting).
Smithman is the prime suspect and he was going down towards Aoife Smith so I doubt he changed direction to go back up again. That doesn't make sense 8-)(--) He knew where he was going IMO.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 12:52:27 AM
I agree that the reported plan to search the big area on west side of Rua 1 Maio, is unlikely to be based on the Smith sighting. However it is by far the the most interesting of all the reported 2014 planned search areas IMO. Immediately over the road from block 4, can't get much closer than that. It's very easy to cross just one road in the dark without anyone seeing.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2014, 01:01:22 AM
I agree that the reported plan to search the big area on west side of Rua 1 Maio, is unlikely to be based on the Smith sighting.
If Smithman is the prime suspect then all your efforts should be concentrated on him. Madeleine was hidden somewhere close by and if he was seen heading down towards the church then you should start there.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 01:11:11 AM
If Smithman is the prime suspect then all your efforts should be concentrated on him. Madeleine was hidden somewhere close by and if he was seen heading down towards the church then you should start there.
I have ruled out unconcealed carrying. But looking at your theory, A.Smith's statement indicates that smithman may have gone east on Rua 25 Abril or may have gone south down Travessa das Escadinhas. That would be a safer route instead of heading for the centre of town. Also it would make sense because it would continue the general south direction he was taking. To make the church fit your smithman theory you have considered only one of the two routes A.Smith indicates as possible, and ignored the other. (ETA corrected west to east)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: a.baker on June 08, 2014, 01:46:47 AM
A search somewhere between PDL and Lagos? Do you remember,Pathfinder,when you wrote a post way back about the McCanns on a trip out in the hire car,some time in June I think? You were analysing their phone pings and there were some hours unaccounted for? They were somewhere just outside of PDL,can you remember your suspicion and what area you believed they were in?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Mr Gray on June 08, 2014, 10:03:19 AM
Corpses prepared for burial do not leave cadaverine
Cadaverine is produced by the gut
Prepared corpses have the acids replaced by embalming fluid = no cadaverine
totally wrong...
decomposition begins immediately...bodies are not taken to undertakers for several hours so cadaverine has already been produced...
decomposition is not caused by acid but by bacteria throughout the gut. These are not removed by embalming....embalming slows down decomposition is does not stop it
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2014, 11:21:05 AM
A search somewhere between PDL and Lagos? Do you remember,Pathfinder,when you wrote a post way back about the McCanns on a trip out in the hire car,some time in June I think? You were analysing their phone pings and there were some hours unaccounted for? They were somewhere just outside of PDL,can you remember your suspicion and what area you believed they were in?
SAT 2 JUNE - big gap one mile north of Lagos - not far from Silves Reservoir. Another big gap after visiting the beach. Maybe looking for a spot in first gap. Disposing in 2nd gap.
SAT 2 JUNE
13:55 Lagos 14:14 Ladeira do Vau (a mile to the North of Portimao) { 2 hours 21 minutes gap } 16:35 Praia Rocha Este (Beach to the South of Portimao) Last ping in Praia da Rocha at 19:48 Reach Lagos Norte at 20:11 { 2.5 hour gap } Next ping at 22:46 back in PdL Centro
DIARY: SATURDAY, JUNE 2: I can't remember today (which is now yesterday!).
Fed up again —poor M. Once again it took a long time before S and A were sorted. Finally went to church for 10 minutes.
Private worship (despairing!).
Cried again in bed—I can't avoid it. I need her close to me. Thinking about her fear of pain breaks my heart. Thinking about paedophiles makes me want to tear at my own skin. Of course these people, like psychopaths, aren't "normal" human beings. I was never in favour of the death penalty, but these people should be kept in a secure place. I wouldn't even complain if it was in nice surroundings, but, certainly in the case of paedophiles always distanced from any type of contact with children.
Whose human rights are more important? Those of a paedophile or of a vulnerable, defenceless child?
Kate, 39, said of the police: "They are basically saying, 'If you confess Madeleine had an accident, and that I panicked and hid the body in a bag for a month then got rid of it in a hire car, I'd get two or three years' suspended sentence.'
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 09:47:31 PM
decomposition begins immediately...bodies are not taken to undertakers for several hours so cadaverine has already been produced...
decomposition is not caused by acid but by bacteria throughout the gut. These are not removed by embalming....embalming slows down decomposition is does not stop it
Agreed. The portuguese have little interest in embalming anyway, it is uncommon there.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 10:15:16 PM
SAT 2 JUNE ... { 2 hours 21 minutes gap } ... { 2.5 hour gap }
Just an observation: It is not unheard of for someone to turn their phone off for the duration of press or TV interview. Haben Sie considered checking whether there was a press and/or TV interview that day? Maybe at a hotel somewhere out of town?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2014, 10:37:18 PM
Just an observation: It is not unheard of for someone to turn their phone off for the duration of press or TV interview. Haben Sie considered checking whether there was a press and/or TV interview that day? Maybe at a hotel somewhere out of town?
Any long ping gap discrepancies should be checked to find out. Moved a month later >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 11:03:13 PM
Any long ping gap discrepancies should be checked to find out. Moved a month later >@@(*&)
One gap is presumably interviews for german TV and press (this was just before berlin) Other gap is possibly meeting with either PJ (re forensic results) or Consulate peeps (re berlin). IMO and "might be wrong" (please re-use this phrase free of charge).
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2014, 11:05:30 PM
Let me guess did the McCanns tell you that or an independent source?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 11:16:03 PM
Independent obviously, very easy to find background of what was going on at this time, and I can give you a link for there being german interviews that day.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Anna on June 08, 2014, 11:18:38 PM
Gerry Blog: Relatively quiet day. Did manage to repsond to some e-mails regarding campaign issues with some excellent ideas coming through. We did visit a local beach with Sean, Amelie and the rest of the family who are here and managed to get a bite to eat. Having a huge number of media reuests in but want these to be very focussed in areas that will have clear benefits in the search for Madeleine. We did do a German TV and newspaper interview which wiil be released tomorrow to incraese awareness ahead of our planned visit to Berlin later this week. Most of the Sunday newspapers will carry some of the interview as a British reporter sat in and asked a few more quetions related to the campaign strategy.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id13.html
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 08, 2014, 11:30:45 PM
Myth?
Leicestershire Police Force
From: DC443 J.N. HUGHES To: SIO, Operation Task Department: Main Crime Unit Date: 16th May 2008 Refª
Subject: Background Information- Gerald McCANN
A search of the local section of the child abuse shows a registration number 19309 in the CATS system. A consultation with the DC Soand from the department in question confirms that this is just a file reference, but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department. No work has been done on the basis of this file.
An examination of all other police files using a search system does not reveal any information about him. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then there's strong allegations against Dr Payne. Never heard a guy banging on about how well the kids were on that contradictory visit. They are just going to sweep these serious matters under the carpet are they?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 08, 2014, 11:55:31 PM
This CATS reference was opened after May 3rd, in anticipation that it might be needed for filing storing information relative to the disappearance. This CATS file was empty. The idea that this CATS reference was created prior to May 3rd and contained some information about a previous incident, is simply wrong. It is quite clear, if you actually read the text, that is what it says.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 09, 2014, 12:07:06 AM
Who created the file?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 12:44:31 AM
From: DC443 J.N. HUGHES To: SIO, Operation Task Department: Main Crime Unit Date: 16th May 2008 Refª
Subject: Background Information- Gerald McCANN
A search of the local section of the child abuse shows a registration number 19309 in the CATS system. A consultation with the DC Soand from the department in question confirms that this is just a file reference, but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department. No work has been done on the basis of this file.
An examination of all other police files using a search system does not reveal any information about him. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then there's strong allegations against Dr Payne. Never heard a guy banging on about how well the kids were on that contradictory visit. They are just going to sweep these serious matters under the carpet are they?
Strong allegations? Are you for real? I assume you are referring to Mrs. Gaspar whose husband was also there and did not agree with her interpretation of what David Payne said. She heard one remark/gesture - and apparently was the only person in the company to take umbrage at it. The rest are her 'imaginings' . How do you explain that inspite of world wide publiciity - not a single person has ever come forward to report anything 'dodgy' about David Payne? She was sitting inbetween Gerry and DP. Do you really think a paedaphile would be casually making paedaphilic remarks across her - (a person who he didn't know that well,) to the person sitting the other side of her?
I would expect in a case like this for all the males in the company at the time to be checked out as a matter of course. IMO this would result in a file reference no. even if nothing at all was found. It's only purpose would be to record that a check had once been made on a particular person.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 09, 2014, 12:54:03 AM
Strong allegations? Are you for real? I assume you are referring to Mrs. Gaspar whose husband was also there and did not agree with her interpretation of what David Payne said. She heard one remark/gesture - and apparently was the only person in the company to take umbrage at it. The rest are her 'imaginings' . How do you explain that inspite of world wide publiciity - not a single person has ever come forward to report anything 'dodgy' about David Payne? She was sitting inbetween Gerry and DP. Do you really think a paedaphile would be casually making paedaphilic remarks across her - (a person who he didn't know that well,) to the person sitting the other side of her?
I would expect in a case like this for all the males in the company at the time to be checked out as a matter of course. IMO this would result in a file reference no. even if nothing at all was found. It's only purpose would be to record that a check had once been made on a particular person.
You wouldn't think so but at the same time you wouldn't accuse somebody of those very serious matters unless you were certain of what was going on. She was making sure he was nowhere near her children. Bathing other kids 8-)(--) WTF is that all about. The cleaner said one cot was in parents bedroom on WED - there's enough room for a cot with their bed being next to the window. The McCanns denied the cot was in their bedroom at any time as well. One leg was wonky like it had been moved. Why is everyone wrong except the McCanns? Fenn or Plummy was wrong. More importantly What are they Hiding? Don't Con Me!
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Martina on June 09, 2014, 12:55:28 AM
Strong allegations? Are you for real? I assume you are referring to Mrs. Gaspar whose husband was also there and did not agree with her interpretation of what David Payne said.
Excerpt from the Mr. Gaspar's testimony:
I do not remember the context of the conversation between David and Gerry, but I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue. This happened during a meal, at the end of the day in the villa, I do not remember the time or the date, but we would usually dine between 19.30 and 21.00 every day. I think this happened in the middle of the holiday. I remember that when I saw this gesture I immediately thought it to be in very bad taste, independently of the context of the conversation they were having.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 01:38:41 AM
You wouldn't think so but at the same time you wouldn't accuse somebody of those very serious matters unless you were certain of what was going on. She was making sure he was nowhere near her children. Bathing other kids 8-)(--) WTF is that all about. The cleaner said one cot was in parents bedroom on WED - there's enough room for a cot with their bed being next to the window. The McCanns denied the cot was in their bedroom at any time as well. One leg was wonky like it had been moved. Why is everyone wrong except the McCanns? Fenn or Plummy was wrong. More importantly What are they Hiding? Don't Con Me!
Mrs Gaspar was so concerned that she didn't even mention this terrible occurrence to her own husband - let alone warn her friend Kate of her concerns, and then even went out with the Paynes AGAIN.
We don't know anything about this lady, except that English may not have been her first language and she might well have been a huge prude who put the wrong interpretation on something quite innocent. Paedaphiles are known for their extreme secrecy, and no way would they chat about their paedaphilic actions at the dinner table - as if it were perfectly normal.
Why would the McCanns move a cot into their bedroom on Wednesday and then move it back on Thursday?
IIRC One or more of the cots may have been in their bedroom when they arrived but they moved them. Maybe the cleaner had a memory of that.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 09, 2014, 01:44:52 AM
Mrs Gaspar was so concerned that she didn't even mention this terrible occurrence to her own husband - let alone warn her friend Kate of her concerns, and then even went out with the Paynes AGAIN.
We don't know anything about this lady, except that English may not have been her first language and she might well have been a huge prude who put the wrong interpretation on something quite innocent. Paedaphiles are known for their extreme secrecy, and no way would they chat about their paedaphilic actions at the dinner table - as if it were perfectly normal.
Why would the McCanns move a cot into their bedroom on Wednesday and then move it back on Thursday?
IIRC One or more of the cots may have been in their bedroom when they arrived but they moved them. Maybe the cleaner had a memory of that.
Yes why would you hide that? The cot would have been in parents bedroom on TUE night when crying was heard for over an hour so is the cot connected to that incident.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 01:54:54 AM
I do not remember the context of the conversation between David and Gerry, but I do remember seeing David use his left index finger to rub his nipple, using circular movements, whilst he put his right index finger into his mouth, touching his tongue. This happened during a meal, at the end of the day in the villa, I do not remember the time or the date, but we would usually dine between 19.30 and 21.00 every day. I think this happened in the middle of the holiday. I remember that when I saw this gesture I immediately thought it to be in very bad taste, independently of the context of the conversation they were having.
He thought it was in 'bad taste'. Thats not how I would describe a paedaphilic conversation. I would be horrified and outraged and I would have remembered every word that was spoken - which neither of the Gaspars could. IIRC he disagreed with his wife in that he did not think the conversation was about Madeleine. Aso IIRC - he went on to virtually give David Payne a reference stating that he had never seen him behave inappropriately around children.
IMO If DP had made an obvious paedaphilic remark about Madeleine to Gerry, then Gerry would have decked him there and then - and that would have been the end of their friendship.
And I ask again - why has not a single victim or concerned parent come forward even though this information has been publicised around the world?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 02:01:34 AM
Yes why would you hide that? The cot would have been in parents bedroom on TUE night when crying was heard for over an hour so is the cot connected to that incident.
IMO the cleaner made a mistake - as there is no sinister reason that I can think of why a cot which was moved out of the McCanns bedroom on the day they arrived, should be moved back into their bedroom on Tuesday and then moved back into the front bedroom on Thursday.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Martina on June 09, 2014, 02:06:43 AM
He thought it was in 'bad taste'. Thats not how I would describe a paedaphilic conversation. I would be horrified and outraged and I would have remembered every word that was spoken - which neither of the Gaspars could. IIRC he disagreed with his wife in that he did not think the conversation was about Madeleine. Aso IIRC - he went on to virtually give David Payne a reference stating that he had never seen him behave inappropriately around children.
Well, I don't think anyone would share any blatantly paedophiliac thoughts at a dinner table. That would head them straight into trouble. But something not so clearly sexual, that might be interpreted in an innocent way... That might happen. And if it wasn't anything clearly paedophiliac... Would you be so eager to alarm everyone and ruin the life of the potentially innocent person? Mrs. Gaspar, as you stated yourself, did not have any hard evidence, just one distasteful remark.
Quote
And I ask again - why has not a single victim or concerned parent come forward even though this information has been publicised around the world?
Because the sexual molestation leaves the victims in deep shame. The perpetrators convince their victims, that nobody would believe them, that it was their fault, that they, the molested children are bad and if someone gets to know what happened nobody would love them. That's how the sexual molesters work, that's why many victims speak after years, when they are adult. That's why many of the sexual molesters can avoid punishment for decades.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 09, 2014, 02:09:05 AM
IMO the cleaner made a mistake - as there is no sinister reason that I can think of why a cot which was moved out of the McCanns bedroom on the day they arrived, should be moved back into their bedroom on Tuesday and then moved back into the front bedroom on Thursday.
On the 28th I believe MW staff delivered 3 cots before the group arrived? Did MW staff put all 3 cots in the south bedroom? Or some in each bedroom?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 09, 2014, 02:13:18 AM
IMO the cleaner made a mistake - as there is no sinister reason that I can think of why a cot which was moved out of the McCanns bedroom on the day they arrived, should be moved back into their bedroom on Tuesday and then moved back into the front bedroom on Thursday.
The cleaner made a mistake on WED? What a surprise @)(++(*
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 02:20:09 AM
Well, I don't think anyone would share any blatantly paedophiliac thoughts at a dinner table. That would head them straight into trouble. But something not so clearly sexual, that might be interpreted in an innocent way... That might happen. And if it wasn't anything clearly paedophiliac... Would you be so eager to alarm everyone and ruin the life of the potentially innocent person? Mrs. Gaspar, as you stated yourself, did not have any hard evidence, just one distasteful remark.
Because the sexual molestation leaves the victims in deep shame. The perpetrators convince their victims, that nobody would believe them, that it was their fault, that they, the molested children are bad and if someone gets to know what happened nobody would love them. That's how the sexual molesters work, that's why many victims speak after years, when they are adult. That's why many of the sexual molesters can avoid punishment for decades.
Recent events re Operation Yewtree(?) would appear to contradict that. As soon as the allegations were made public about certain people - hundreds of victims came forward. But not one victim has come forward as a result of the 'allegations' made against DP - which have been 'doing the rounds' for years now. Common sense alone dictates that is because there are none.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 02:25:59 AM
The cleaner made a mistake on WED? What a surprise @)(++(*
Why is it a surprise. The cleaner may be remembering the cots from the weekend - it depends on when she was interviewed and how long back she had to remember, and also they do clean other apartments which may have cots in them. It's not something she would have any reason to remember in detail.
Unless you can come up with a feasible reason why a cot was moved backwards and forwards from room to room - then I think the cleaner was mistaken in her recollection.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Martina on June 09, 2014, 02:26:41 AM
Recent events re Operation Yewtree(?) would appear to contradict that. As soon as the allegations were made public about certain people - hundreds of victims came forward.
The abuse being investigated during the Yewtree Operation covers the timespan between 1959 and the eighties, so the latest molestations in this case happened at least twenty five years ago. That means all these victims are adults now. That actually confirms what I wrote earlier.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 02:29:55 AM
The abuse being investigated during the Yewtree Operation covers the timespan between 1959 and the eighties, so the latest molestations in this case happened at least twenty five years ago. That means all these victims are adults now. That actually confirms what I wrote earlier.
The point I was making is that it is the PUBLICITY of the allegations which results in people coming forward. The allegations against DP have been in the public domain for years - but no-one has come forward.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Martina on June 09, 2014, 02:52:36 AM
The point I was making is that it is the PUBLICITY of the allegations which results in people coming forward. The allegations against DP have been in the public domain for years - but no-one has come forward.
BEcause any potential victims in this case would be still children, not strong enough to deal with the trauma and too scared to tell anyone. That is the point I am trying to make.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Martina on June 09, 2014, 02:55:00 AM
DISCLAIMER (because I don't want my behind busted because libel and whatnot) I am not claiming that there are any victims of Dr. Payne. I am just pointing out why they would not come out in such a fresh case. That's all.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Benice on June 09, 2014, 08:31:51 AM
BEcause any potential victims in this case would be still children, not strong enough to deal with the trauma and too scared to tell anyone. That is the point I am trying to make.
What about their parents? Surely any parent who realised (via the publicity) that their child had been in the company of an alleged paedaphile at some time or another would question them?
Claiming that no child would 'tell' is being unrealistic IMO. If that was the case we wouldn't have Childline.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2014, 10:34:44 PM
Pathfinder:
She [Mrs Gaspar] was making sure he was nowhere near her children. Bathing other kids 8-)(--) WTF is that all about.
I'm afraid you've been misled by the propaganda in Amaral's book.
According to her own account (that we read in the files) Mrs G did not prevent the man she accused from bathing their daughter; but merely instructed her husband to be on alert when it was his turn to bath the children.
The other point Amaral screwed up in his book is that he says the Gaspars made a joint statement.
Quite aside from betraying Amaral's ignorance (as formerly a senior PJ officer) of procedures common to the PJ and police forces around the world that witnesses are interviewed individually, the point that they gave separate interviews is vital. Mr G's statement reads, almost, as a favourable character reference for DP.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2014, 10:42:06 PM
The first phonecall I see to any church was an attempted call from OC landline to a church not in PDL but in Lagos, it was a very short call consistent IMO not with talking to a person but with getting through to an an answering machine, as one might expect at that hour (something like 4am that night IIRC).
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2014, 10:48:54 PM
Quite aside from betraying Amaral's ignorance (as formerly a senior PJ officer) of procedures common to the PJ and police forces around the world that witnesses are interviewed individually, the point that they gave separate interviews is vital.
I don't know if you are aware of this, but one of the most important interviews of a witness by PJ in Portimao on 4th May 2007, and indeed of the whole investigation, was conducted by the PJ, contrary to standard practice, with another witness also present in the room, sitting behind, but within physical contact distance of, the witness being interviewed. Do you agree that this was an error by the PJ? Do you think it might in any way have affected what the witness being interviewed said?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2014, 10:54:31 PM
I don't know if you are aware of this, but one of the most important interviews of a witness by PJ in Portimao on 4th May 2007, and indeed of the whole investigation, was conducted by the PJ with another witness present in the room, sitting behind, but in physical contact with, the witness being interviewed. Do you agree that this was an error by the PJ? Do you think it might in any way have affected what the witness being interviewed said?
The particular interview you refer to was of Kate, when Joao Carlos allowed Gerry to be with Kate during that interview.
Then as now, the McCanns were regarded as victims rather than suspects and Carlos showed common decency and compassion in allowing Gerry to be present, too.
Carlos is a fundamentally decent cove.
I like him.
I think his final report on behalf of the PJ was excellent.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2014, 11:07:52 PM
The particular interview you refer to was of Kate, when Joao Carlos allowed Gerry to be with Kate during that interview.
Then as now, the McCanns were regarded as victims rather than suspects and Carlos showed common decency and compassion in allowing Gerry to be present, too.
Carlos is a fundamentally decent cove.
I like him.
I think his final report on behalf of the PJ was excellent.
Yes that's the interview. Why did the PJ have the witness who was not being interviewed sit behind, rather than next to, the witness who was being interviewed?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2014, 11:10:08 PM
Yes that's the interview. Why did the PJ have the witness who was not being interviewed sit behind, rather than next to, the witness who was being interviewed?
What?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2014, 11:24:05 PM
João Carlos agreed to the presence only with the proviso that the other person sat behind the witness. Source: The book "Madeleine". Seems like Carlos, although compassionately breaking protocol by allowing another person to be present, insisted on this seating proviso in order to retain some resemblance to a normal interview?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 15, 2014, 01:02:38 PM
What is it that the church has?
TVMais magazine
Announced visits and another in secret, keys provided against the wishes of the Bishop, the priest's wife , finished constructions and searches never made. What is it that the church of Praia da Luz has?
By Hernâni Carvalho
With thanks to Joana Morais for translation and Maria for images
• On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. It was with him whom they spoke with. Some days later, Gerry and Kate received the church keys, and since then they were able to enter and leave at any time. A situation that was criticized by the Bishop of the Algarve at the time. When questioned on this discretionary act, the priest José Pacheco said: "Do I decide that?!"
McCanns visited the church in secret
"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine", we can read in a press statement sent to Lusa news agency in 12th December 2009, by the McCann's Portuguese PR, in connection to the couple's visit to the church. During the day, the visits were announced and followed by the media. The exception was made in the early hours of January 14, 2010. At 5am they were seen and photographed leaving the church from a side door. In the afternoon they gave a press conference.
Wife of Priest worried
The forensic psychologist Paulo Sargento asked the bishop of the Algarve Dom Manuel Quintas, if any catholic can go to the church at any time.
Hernâni Carvalho - How did you get to talk with the bishop?
Paulo Sargento - I sent a registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt early on, in January 2010. Since I got no reply, about a month later, I sent an e-mail with the questions that I had. Four days later, it was the Bishop himself who replied, also by e-mail, apologizing for the delay in the answer. A hearing was scheduled for two or three days later.
Hernâni Carvalho - And you felt clarified?
Paulo Sargento - The hearing took place in February, at the episcopal see of Faro. The Bishop received me kindly. We talked about an hour. I had already been informed about a McCann visit to the church in the early hours and wondered if the Bishop was aware of that and I also wished to understand if any other catholic could do the same. Dom Manuel Quintas confirmed the McCanns had indeed been in the church on that day at 5am, that the person who had given them the key that night was Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican priest, who had a key to the church at all times since her husband celebrated the Anglican mass there. Susan assured the Bishop the McCanns wanted to pray without being harassed by the media. However, the Bishop told me: "I don't understand, that day at 17h00 there was a mass where they went, surrounded by the media". Dom Manuel Quintas also added that when Susan Hubbard found out about my hearing request, she got scared and inclusively, sought him, very worried. The Bishop told me that he answered her queries saying that she should not be so worried if nothing unusual or wrong had happened.
Hernâni Carvalho - Did the Bishop avoid discussing any issues?
Paulo Sargento - No. I'm not going to give you details, but the Bishop was very open and did not flinch at anything I asked to him. He was willing, even, to resume contact for further questions or more information I needed. Interestingly, in that summer (2010), Kate spent a week vacation in Canada, in the house of a family member of Susan Hubbard, the wife of the priest.
Construction Works
Back in 2007, the public area of the Village of Luz had been for months undergoing sanitation improvements and road works. Behind the church there were ongoing construction works. Being a place of worship, various legal issues hampered a search there. At the time, PJ sources admitted to the possibility that the girl's body could have passed through that location, or even, to have been buried in the deactivated cemetery.
The British police came to Portugal to investigate the Maddie case. They dug and went into the sewers looking for a dead girl or clues that could lead to her whereabouts. The PJ had said the very same and had done those searches seven years ago.
• "A movie for the English to see," said an elderly lady, mockingly, to CMTV recently. One and a half year ago the English police announced that they would find the girl in a few days. So far nothing. Scotland Yard's work in Portugal is discussed by all in a very critical way. "They haven't done anything that our PJ hasn't done years ago," stated a Portuguese in the same area. The searches are causing discontent among tourists and locals as they consider them detrimental to tourism, now that the peak season begins.
Show Off
The British police wanted the searches to be accompanied by the media but the PJ refused. Since the 2nd of June, Praia da Luz in Lagos has a large team of policemen, geologists, archaeologists, cutting edge technology and also sniffer dogs. They all come from England "under the supervision of PJ and the Public Prosecutor Office". In addition there are PJ inspectors, GNR military officers on foot and horseback and Portuguese forest sappers. A setting worthy of a Hollywood blockbuster movie.
Stones, socks and bottles
The searches and excavations of the English police in Luz highlights the acknowledgement that they are looking for a body. The PJ had reached that same conclusion seven years ago. The English police began by excavating a field near Rua 25 de Abril, 600 metres away from the apartment from where the girl disappeared. An area equal to three football fields, a slope hill, which belongs to the Belmiro de Azevedo Group [SONAE] and is frequented by locals and tourists for leisurely walks. They collected animal bones, two cannabis plants, stones, soil samples, a sock and bottles and kept everything in boxes.
Nothing
There are no findings to sustain the theory of the British authorities. They argue that Maddie's body is in that place or that there are clues that may lead to her whereabouts. They also claim that they have a group of eight suspects(?). Explaining that they have extended the searches because they have concluded (only now?) that the terrain is more difficult to analyse than predicted. These places had already been thoroughly searched by the Portuguese police immediately after the disappearance of the girl. In fact, until September 11, 2007, the PJ had investigated over 2500 false leads.
Millions of Euros
The 37 officers of the London Metropolitan Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine have cost the British Crown about 6 million pounds (7.4 million euros). Besides the first investigation, Portugal has had a team of six inspectors of the PJ in Faro, for months, just to carry out the steps requested by the British and another team of inspectors from the Northern Directorate of PJ, doing a review of the first investigation for the last two years. No one has, so far, established the total cost to our country. The McCanns moved in early July 2007 to the Villa Vista Mar. At the average values of the property market at the time, the total rent was calculated to have surpassed 6000 euros. The Renault Scénic where biological traces were found, allegedly belonging to Maddie, was rented for 113 days, at the list price it cost 7990 euros.
Maddie
3 May 2007 In Praia da Luz in the Algarve, the parents of Madeleine, who would be four years old just a few days later, cried "abduction" when they noticed Maddie had disappeared from the apartment where they had left her alone with her younger twin siblings. "Homicide", said the PJ a few days later. After a lot of press, suspects, searches, investigations to everyone's taste and seven years later, there is nothing.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2014, 08:04:32 PM
Announced visits and another in secret, keys provided against the wishes of the Bishop, the priest's wife , finished constructions and searches never made. What is it that the church of Praia da Luz has?
By Hernâni Carvalho
With thanks to Joana Morais for translation and Maria for images
• On the night of their daughter's disappearance, the McCann couple asked for a priest. The priest of the Luz church, José Pacheco, did not respond. The couple knew, even before they had gone to Praia da Luz, that the Anglican priest Haynes Hubbard celebrated masses there and lived with his wife. He had a friendship with McCann's family members. It was with him whom they spoke with. Some days later, Gerry and Kate received the church keys, and since then they were able to enter and leave at any time. A situation that was criticized by the Bishop of the Algarve at the time. When questioned on this discretionary act, the priest José Pacheco said: "Do I decide that?!"
McCanns visited the church in secret
"Although our pain feels much rawer here, it is comforting at the same time since we feel closer to Madeleine", we can read in a press statement sent to Lusa news agency in 12th December 2009, by the McCann's Portuguese PR, in connection to the couple's visit to the church. During the day, the visits were announced and followed by the media. The exception was made in the early hours of January 14, 2010. At 5am they were seen and photographed leaving the church from a side door. In the afternoon they gave a press conference.
Wife of Priest worried
The forensic psychologist Paulo Sargento asked the bishop of the Algarve Dom Manuel Quintas, if any catholic can go to the church at any time.
Hernâni Carvalho - How did you get to talk with the bishop?
Paulo Sargento - I sent a registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt early on, in January 2010. Since I got no reply, about a month later, I sent an e-mail with the questions that I had. Four days later, it was the Bishop himself who replied, also by e-mail, apologizing for the delay in the answer. A hearing was scheduled for two or three days later.
Hernâni Carvalho - And you felt clarified?
Paulo Sargento - The hearing took place in February, at the episcopal see of Faro. The Bishop received me kindly. We talked about an hour. I had already been informed about a McCann visit to the church in the early hours and wondered if the Bishop was aware of that and I also wished to understand if any other catholic could do the same. Dom Manuel Quintas confirmed the McCanns had indeed been in the church on that day at 5am, that the person who had given them the key that night was Susan Hubbard, the wife of the Anglican priest, who had a key to the church at all times since her husband celebrated the Anglican mass there. Susan assured the Bishop the McCanns wanted to pray without being harassed by the media. However, the Bishop told me: "I don't understand, that day at 17h00 there was a mass where they went, surrounded by the media". Dom Manuel Quintas also added that when Susan Hubbard found out about my hearing request, she got scared and inclusively, sought him, very worried. The Bishop told me that he answered her queries saying that she should not be so worried if nothing unusual or wrong had happened.
Hernâni Carvalho - Did the Bishop avoid discussing any issues?
Paulo Sargento - No. I'm not going to give you details, but the Bishop was very open and did not flinch at anything I asked to him. He was willing, even, to resume contact for further questions or more information I needed. Interestingly, in that summer (2010), Kate spent a week vacation in Canada, in the house of a family member of Susan Hubbard, the wife of the priest.
Construction Works
Back in 2007, the public area of the Village of Luz had been for months undergoing sanitation improvements and road works. Behind the church there were ongoing construction works. Being a place of worship, various legal issues hampered a search there. At the time, PJ sources admitted to the possibility that the girl's body could have passed through that location, or even, to have been buried in the deactivated cemetery.
The British police came to Portugal to investigate the Maddie case. They dug and went into the sewers looking for a dead girl or clues that could lead to her whereabouts. The PJ had said the very same and had done those searches seven years ago.
• "A movie for the English to see," said an elderly lady, mockingly, to CMTV recently. One and a half year ago the English police announced that they would find the girl in a few days. So far nothing. Scotland Yard's work in Portugal is discussed by all in a very critical way. "They haven't done anything that our PJ hasn't done years ago," stated a Portuguese in the same area. The searches are causing discontent among tourists and locals as they consider them detrimental to tourism, now that the peak season begins.
Show Off
The British police wanted the searches to be accompanied by the media but the PJ refused. Since the 2nd of June, Praia da Luz in Lagos has a large team of policemen, geologists, archaeologists, cutting edge technology and also sniffer dogs. They all come from England "under the supervision of PJ and the Public Prosecutor Office". In addition there are PJ inspectors, GNR military officers on foot and horseback and Portuguese forest sappers. A setting worthy of a Hollywood blockbuster movie.
Stones, socks and bottles
The searches and excavations of the English police in Luz highlights the acknowledgement that they are looking for a body. The PJ had reached that same conclusion seven years ago. The English police began by excavating a field near Rua 25 de Abril, 600 metres away from the apartment from where the girl disappeared. An area equal to three football fields, a slope hill, which belongs to the Belmiro de Azevedo Group [SONAE] and is frequented by locals and tourists for leisurely walks. They collected animal bones, two cannabis plants, stones, soil samples, a sock and bottles and kept everything in boxes.
Nothing
There are no findings to sustain the theory of the British authorities. They argue that Maddie's body is in that place or that there are clues that may lead to her whereabouts. They also claim that they have a group of eight suspects(?). Explaining that they have extended the searches because they have concluded (only now?) that the terrain is more difficult to analyse than predicted. These places had already been thoroughly searched by the Portuguese police immediately after the disappearance of the girl. In fact, until September 11, 2007, the PJ had investigated over 2500 false leads.
Millions of Euros
The 37 officers of the London Metropolitan Police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine have cost the British Crown about 6 million pounds (7.4 million euros). Besides the first investigation, Portugal has had a team of six inspectors of the PJ in Faro, for months, just to carry out the steps requested by the British and another team of inspectors from the Northern Directorate of PJ, doing a review of the first investigation for the last two years. No one has, so far, established the total cost to our country. The McCanns moved in early July 2007 to the Villa Vista Mar. At the average values of the property market at the time, the total rent was calculated to have surpassed 6000 euros. The Renault Scénic where biological traces were found, allegedly belonging to Maddie, was rented for 113 days, at the list price it cost 7990 euros.
Maddie
3 May 2007 In Praia da Luz in the Algarve, the parents of Madeleine, who would be four years old just a few days later, cried "abduction" when they noticed Maddie had disappeared from the apartment where they had left her alone with her younger twin siblings. "Homicide", said the PJ a few days later. After a lot of press, suspects, searches, investigations to everyone's taste and seven years later, there is nothing.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
Rather gives one the impression that there are those in Portugal who are none too pleased that the Met and the PJ are progressing Madeleine McCann's case so positively.
When that happens it brings to mind ... Cui Bono? ... if not those who already know what happened to madeleine.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2014, 08:42:19 PM
Rather gives one the impression that there are those in Portugal who are none too pleased that the Met and the PJ are progressing Madeleine McCann's case so positively.
When that happens it brings to mind ... Cui Bono? ... if not those who already know what happened to madeleine.
Oh, has some progress been made? Do tell what it is, as I haven't noticed.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 15, 2014, 08:49:19 PM
They haven't checked around the church yet. That is the first area I would check. Thanks for the article WS.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2014, 08:55:03 PM
Oh, has some progress been made? Do tell what it is, as I haven't noticed.
I would be ashamed to be making such an admission were I you. Regurgitating the myths of 2007, really does illustrate that you are stuck in such a time warp you are incapable of reading and digesting current developments.
You possibly missed that the current searches were not carried out in the environs of the church. Suggesting the church myths are not top of the list for the Met or the PJ ... and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007.
The main progression is the reopening of Madeleine's case ... in case you missed that too ... as for the rest ... you will just have to wait for the official announcements. One of which goes along the lines of the parents not being persons of interest etc; or did you miss that one too?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: jassi on June 15, 2014, 08:57:39 PM
I would be ashamed to be making such an admission were I you. Regurgitating the myths of 2007, really does illustrate that you are stuck in such a time warp you are incapable of reading and digesting current developments.
You possibly missed that the current searches were not carried out in the environs of the church. Suggesting the church myths are not top of the list for the Met or the PJ ... and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007.
The main progression is the reopening of Madeleine's case ... in case you missed that too ... as for the rest ... you will just have to wait for the official announcements. One of which goes along the lines of the parents not being persons of interest etc; or did you miss that one too?
Is that progress ? I thought you meant they were actually progressing in the 'search' for Madeleine
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 15, 2014, 08:57:46 PM
I would be ashamed to be making such an admission were I you. Regurgitating the myths of 2007, really does illustrate that you are stuck in such a time warp you are incapable of reading and digesting current developments.
You possibly missed that the current searches were not carried out in the environs of the church. Suggesting the church myths are not top of the list for the Met or the PJ ... and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007.
The main progression is the reopening of Madeleine's case ... in case you missed that too ... as for the rest ... you will just have to wait for the official announcements. One of which goes along the lines of the parents not being persons of interest etc; or did you miss that one too?
Show me the church searches from 2007 in the files?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2014, 09:25:50 PM
Show me the church searches from 2007 in the files?
You mean they failed to investigate the civic works which were being carried out in the streets around the church at that time?
Did they fail to search the adjacent ruined building and the waste ground?
No investigation into the reported supposedly ancient tunnels under the church either to rule in or to rule out?
No Eddie cadaver alerts ... bearing in mind the discussion regarding embalming in Portugal?
So no searching at all of the environs of the church?
I think if as you seem to imply no searches were carried out there, not only is it rank incompetence but rather stupid into the bargain.
The statement I made said "and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007." So for me, no cite required for obvious reasons.
Your query suggests that you believe none were made in that area ... so unless you can provide evidence to the contrary ... I think you have just kicked an enormous "own goal" which backs up the failures of the original investigation somewhat if that diligence was ignored.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 15, 2014, 09:48:01 PM
You mean they failed to investigate the civic works which were being carried out in the streets around the church at that time?
Did they fail to search the adjacent ruined building and the waste ground?
No investigation into the reported supposedly ancient tunnels under the church either to rule in or to rule out?
No Eddie cadaver alerts ... bearing in mind the discussion regarding embalming in Portugal?
So no searching at all of the environs of the church?
I think if as you seem to imply no searches were carried out there, not only is it rank incompetence but rather stupid into the bargain.
The statement I made said "and I believe there were searches in this area even back in 2007." So for me, no cite required for obvious reasons.
Your query suggests that you believe none were made in that area ... so unless you can provide evidence to the contrary ... I think you have just kicked an enormous "own goal" which backs up the failures of the original investigation somewhat if that diligence was ignored.
No they haven't searched the areas properly around the church, building site etc. The dogs searched the beach and cliff faces (only so far up which they could go from the bottom) to rocha negra. I think Amaral would've done if he wasn't thrown off the case.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 15, 2014, 09:59:55 PM
No they haven't searched the areas properly around the church, building site etc. The dogs searched the beach and cliff faces (only so far up which they could go from the bottom) to rocha negra. I think Amaral would've done if he wasn't thrown off the case.
What prevented him searching the area prior to being booted?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 15, 2014, 10:21:28 PM
What prevented him searching the area prior to being booted?
I think Mark Harrison advised the search areas. Amaral was arranging to bring the Smith family back to Portugal just before he was removed. Smithman after passing the Smiths was heading down Rua 25 de Abril in the direction of the church so the next logical step is to conduct searches around the church/rocks. I believe Amaral would have done searches there.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Brietta on June 15, 2014, 11:43:23 PM
I think Mark Harrison advised the search areas. Amaral was arranging to bring the Smith family back to Portugal just before he was removed. Smithman after passing the Smiths was heading down Rua 25 de Abril in the direction of the church so the next logical step is to conduct searches around the church/rocks. I believe Amaral would have done searches there.
In other words resources were concentrated on gathering evidence to implicate Madeleine's parents in her disappearance. For example waiting for Mr Smith to return after 'recognising' the child carrier. Why didn't Dr Amaral have the area searched at the time of Mr Smith's original statement if that was the logical thing to do?
Why no search of an area close to the OC apartments in the hours and days after Madeleine's disappearance where public works were in progress? Surely that would have been the logical thing to do?
What a portrait of disaster you depict. Surely it is logical to presume if areas like these are not searched ... there is absolutely no chance of eliminating them in an enquiry into what has become of a missing child.
It is these elementary diligences that the current investigation is carrying out. It is evident it is what was neglected to be done in 2007.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2014, 12:26:53 AM
Amaral was removed only 3 weeks after the McCanns were made arguido. He probably would've planned further searches if he wasn't removed. The McCanns brought Krugel and his machine in for the searches so they wouldn't let that happen if they believe the McCanns were guilty. It all changed re dogs alerts.
23/7/07
Mark Harrison MBE National Search Adviser
GNR Searches Conducted within 7 days of Madeleine McCann's Disappearance.
On Saturday 21.07.2007 I met with Major Luis Seqeuira, GNR Portimao who was the search coordinator for all search activity that was under taken in the physical search for Madeleine McCann. Major Seqeuira has not benefited from any formal training or accreditation in the management of searching for missing persons. The search officers with the exception of the search and rescue team dispatched from Lisbon had not benefited from any formal training in search procedures. The teams available and deployed by Major Seqeuira were drawn from unit of the GNR, Civil Protection, Fire Brigade, Red Cross and Urban Police. Each team numbered around 10 and between 80 to 100 personnel were involved in search activity.
The searches were based on a strategy of searching in "rescue and recovery mode? to locate the missing girl alive or if dead, not as a victim of crime. This search phase lasted for 7 days from the date M McCann went missing.
The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.
The next Zone 2 was extended out to a radius of 7km to the boundary of the N120 road at Bensafrim. As the sectors were larger and in order to support the line searches 2 GNR officers on motorcycles and 6 GNR officers on horse Page 2227 :
-back were deployed. These sectors were all searched on 2 separate occasions over the 7 day period. The outer zone 3 was extended to 15km at Barragem de Odiaxere a dammed lake. This zone is in a mountainous region subject to flash forest fires. Therefore Fire officers who routinely patrol and have local knowledge of the area were tasked to drive the tracks, visit empty properties to look for the missing girl. Additionally the fire brigade used a boat to visually inspect the surface water of the lake.
Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.
This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's. Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann. A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets. Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence. Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood. This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed. An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.
Page 2228 :
Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.
These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.
Murat's Vehicles.
All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.
Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.
This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast. This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains. Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.
An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.
Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.
The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach. This would be
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a considerable time and cost undertaking and should be weighed in the absence of specific intelligence.
Search Duration.
If all the described assets were deployed it would be likely all assets would complete their searches within one week.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Brietta on June 16, 2014, 01:31:44 AM
But that is not the point. You seem to be affirming that no searches were undertaken around the church either prior to the Smith sighting or in the immediate aftermath. Despite public works involving trenches being dug in the area. Don't you find that reprehensible if true?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2014, 02:07:56 AM
There were reports there was going to be and then Amaral was removed and rebelo took over and followed a different line of inquiry.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2014, 02:11:15 AM
This is not in the published files - but if you look at exactly where the man with child was, on northside pavement of Rua 25, when witness ASmith saw him - that building he is next to - Mr Amaral's team did search in there and garden too .
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2014, 02:22:37 AM
Two possibilities, with the word "or" in between, according to the person who was there.
That is the foolish way - imagine if he passed the Smith family there on that brightly lit narrow path. They would have put Smithman away as he would be easily recognised in the light. The street to the church was dark and he could see ahead if people were there or not and could cross the road if necessary to avoid them. That's the way a person who didn't know the area would use IMO so he headed towards the church.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: slartibartfast on June 16, 2014, 01:52:14 PM
In other words resources were concentrated on gathering evidence to implicate Madeleine's parents in her disappearance. For example waiting for Mr Smith to return after 'recognising' the child carrier. Why didn't Dr Amaral have the area searched at the time of Mr Smith's original statement if that was the logical thing to do?
Why no search of an area close to the OC apartments in the hours and days after Madeleine's disappearance where public works were in progress? Surely that would have been the logical thing to do?
What a portrait of disaster you depict. Surely it is logical to presume if areas like these are not searched ... there is absolutely no chance of eliminating them in an enquiry into what has become of a missing child.
It is these elementary diligences that the current investigation is carrying out. It is evident it is what was neglected to be done in 2007.
Why do you assume the Smith sighting was GM?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Truth on June 16, 2014, 09:50:22 PM
But that is not the point. You seem to be affirming that no searches were undertaken around the church either prior to the Smith sighting or in the immediate aftermath. Despite public works involving trenches being dug in the area. Don't you find that reprehensible if true?
\\\
its not true where are you getting your information from???????????????
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: jassi on June 16, 2014, 09:53:32 PM
But that is not the point. You seem to be affirming that no searches were undertaken around the church either prior to the Smith sighting or in the immediate aftermath. Despite public works involving trenches being dug in the area. Don't you find that reprehensible if true?
At the time of the Smith sighting, the alarm hadn't even been raised. How could there be searches prior to that?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2014, 11:06:19 PM
Gerry and Kate McCann furious at claims they hid daughter Madeleine's body in coffin
Kate and Gerry McCann tonight told of their anguish after disgraced detective Goncalo Amaral threw yet more hurtful allegations at them.
The former police officer claimed the couple could have hidden their daughter Madeleine’s body inside the coffin of a woman, who was due to be cremated, in a church near where the three-year-old vanished.
Speaking earlier to a Portuguese newspaper and its TV channel, Amaral, sacked after botching the initial hunt for Madeleine, repeated his claims the youngster is dead.
But he suggested the McCanns hid her body in the woman’s coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.
Amaral added: “The mystery will only end when the McCann couple are no longer being protected. Only then will we understand the truth.”
But a source close to the couple said: “These are sickening allegations that no sane person would believe.
“It’s about time people realised what Mr Amaral is, a liar and a fantasist. He has been making these false claims since he was sacked.
“He is suggesting Kate and Gerry moved Madeleine’s body a month after she vanished.
"At that time they were the most-watched couple in the history of the modern media.”
Gonçalo Amaral says that information provided by a woman who saw Maddie's father walking towards the beach disappeared from the files.
A few days after Madeleine McCann disappeared from the Ocean Club holiday resort in Praia da Luz, Algarve, May 3, 2007 (seven years ago), a witness emerged: a British tourist who said she saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by the former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared.
"We tried to recover this testimony and the documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Still do not know who this person is and where it is," said Goncalo Amaral. Today, the former coordinator of the PJ of Portimão will meet up again with Gerry and Kate in the Justice Palace, in Lisbon, since it will continue the trial in which the British couple seeks EUR 1.2 million compensation for publishing the book 'Maddie, The Truth of the Lie', written by Goncalo Amaral, in defending the thesis that parents are responsible for the disappearance of the girl and the concealment of the body (see box). Goncalo Amaral has no doubts that Maddie is dead. "The girl's parents had the key of the church and in the same church a funeral a month after the disappearance was performed. According to some reports, the child could well go to the feet of this woman who was going to be cremated," further explained Gonçalo Amaral.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2014, 11:37:41 PM
If I follow Amaral's theory of the body being hidden and moved in the hire car a month later to the church which they had keys for then where was the body? If not inside there's one place that stands out - the cliff face.
"She said that the previous night she had seen a car going up the Rocha Negra – the black, volcanic cliff that dominates the village. There was a track leading to the Rocha Negra but nobody remembered ever having noticed any vehicle that far up in the daytime, let alone at night."
"It wasn’t enough to prevent me from sliding down the slippery slope for the rest of the day."
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2014, 02:44:39 AM
If I follow Amaral's theory of the body being hidden and moved in the hire car a month later to the church which they had keys for then where was the body? If not inside there's one place that stands out - the cliff face.
"She said that the previous night she had seen a car going up the Rocha Negra – the black, volcanic cliff that dominates the village. There was a track leading to the Rocha Negra but nobody remembered ever having noticed any vehicle that far up in the daytime, let alone at night."
"It wasn’t enough to prevent me from sliding down the slippery slope for the rest of the day."
It isn't a theory. This idea he has recently come up with about Madeleine being in a coffin in the church between some woman's legs is a fantasy. Police theories are based on some kind of reasoned scenario based on evidence (even if the evidence is flimsy) but this is not a theory because there isn't any evidence at all that there was any connection between the McCanns and a coffin at any time. It is a wild guess plucked out of the atmosphere for effect by Amaral on one of his TV gossip show appearances. It is no more credible than a guess that was made by someone in PDL a very long time ago which I became aware of that the local Police had hidden Madeleine's body to stop any bad effect on tourism. Barking mad.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: gilet on June 17, 2014, 02:54:35 AM
Interesting, thanks. The big thing here is that he is claiming that a witness's testimony mysteriously disappeared.
I remember reading that when Rebelo took over the case from Amaral the files were in total chaos. Not really surprising that paperwork went missing in that kind of environment.
I spotted the little allusion to this particular statement having been in the "British sphere" but in the "British sphere" or not it was his responsibility to maintain control of paperwork. Is he now suggesting that his conspiracy theory regarding British influence which he has already used as an excuse to cover up the fact that his own big mouth breaking the secrecy rules got him thrown off the case stretches to losing paperwork in his office? He really does sound more and more insane as the trial goes on.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 17, 2014, 03:20:11 AM
I remember reading that when Rebelo took over the case from Amaral the files were in total chaos. Not really surprising that paperwork went missing in that kind of environment.
I spotted the little allusion to this particular statement having been in the "British sphere" but in the "British sphere" or not it was his responsibility to maintain control of paperwork. Is he now suggesting that his conspiracy theory regarding British influence which he has already used as an excuse to cover up the fact that his own big mouth breaking the secrecy rules got him thrown off the case stretches to losing paperwork in his office? He really does sound more and more insane as the trial goes on.
The witness Mr Amaral mentions is a female UK tourist. Therefore the statement was most likely taken in the UK, by UK police, after she returned from holiday.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 17, 2014, 08:26:21 AM
It isn't a theory. This idea he has recently come up with about Madeleine being in a coffin in the church between some woman's legs is a fantasy. Police theories are based on some kind of reasoned scenario based on evidence (even if the evidence is flimsy) but this is not a theory because there isn't any evidence at all that there was any connection between the McCanns and a coffin at any time. It is a wild guess plucked out of the atmosphere for effect by Amaral on one of his TV gossip show appearances. It is no more credible than a guess that was made by someone in PDL a very long time ago which I became aware of that the local Police had hidden Madeleine's body to stop any bad effect on tourism. Barking mad.
I doubt he would have said it unless he had inside info. The connection is having the keys to the church. They could go into the church at 4am if they wanted to. Only Amaral could provide further info on date, name etc.
"To say my goodbyes and express my heartfelt thanks to all our friends and supporters in the parish, especially a small and faithful group of elderly Portuguese ladies. We were absolutely delighted – as, incidentally, were the many little old ladies who wrote to tell us that they were sleeping much better since the return of that nice ‘Mr Mitchell’."
Who are these faithful old ladies? From the church?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: John on June 18, 2014, 04:16:07 PM
The suggestion that Madeleine was put in a coffin with another woman and thereafter cremated without anyone knowing is impossible. What Amaral and so many others have failed to appreciate is that the coffin is always checked by the crematorium staff before being put into the incinerator. Sometimes the body is removed and the coffin reused if it is just for show.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 18, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
The suggestion that Madeleine was put in a coffin with another woman and thereafter cremated without anyone knowing is impossible. What Amaral and so many others have failed to appreciate is that the coffin is always checked by the crematorium staff before being put into the incinerator. Sometimes the body is removed and the coffin reused if it is just for show.
Creamation is not much in demand by the Portuguese, so this was probably the funeral of a British expat IMO.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2014, 04:39:09 PM
The suggestion that Madeleine was put in a coffin with another woman and thereafter cremated without anyone knowing is impossible. What Amaral and so many others have failed to appreciate is that the coffin is always checked by the crematorium staff before being put into the incinerator. Sometimes the body is removed and the coffin reused if it is just for show.
In this country maybe.
However, not in every one.
Money can exchange hands, as the saying goes.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Mr Gray on June 18, 2014, 04:54:52 PM
The suggestion that Madeleine was put in a coffin with another woman and thereafter cremated without anyone knowing is impossible. What Amaral and so many others have failed to appreciate is that the coffin is always checked by the crematorium staff before being put into the incinerator. Sometimes the body is removed and the coffin reused if it is just for show.
so what does that say about amaral the ace detective
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: stephen25000 on June 18, 2014, 05:13:29 PM
how can you support someone who gets many details wrong
Everyone's theories have some details drastically wrong. I like the man. I like his straightforward behaviour in screen interviews. Would love to meet him have a few beers and discuss those details which I think he got wrong.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 18, 2014, 08:58:22 PM
True. Can you name any man in the world in any TV discussion program you wish who in your opinion is more straightforward, non-evasive, and non-controlling, than Mr Amaral is in TV discussions?
Back to the church, I thought Mr Amaral had previously said or written that he had ruled it out the church as a location?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Mr Gray on June 18, 2014, 09:25:37 PM
True. Can you name any man in the world in any TV discussion program you wish who in your opinion is more straightforward, non-evasive, and non-controlling, than Mr Amaral is in TV discussions?
david icke
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on June 18, 2014, 09:39:27 PM
IIRC that's a very low wall, doesn't offer safety from someone seeing.
If you knew there were trenches already dug you would take that risk. I don't think there would be people hanging round the church or that derelict house opposite. It could be easy to slip through the back of the church unnoticed in the dark.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 20, 2014, 01:34:10 AM
a British tourist who said she saw the girl's father to walk the beach at night. The revelation was made by the former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral, who adds that the data of the witness disappeared.
"We tried to recover this testimony and the documents that were in the British sphere and simply disappeared. Still do not know who this person is and where it is," said Goncalo Amaral.
A second witness spotted the man minutes later rushing past the church in the resort and heading to the sea front.
The dark-haired man was wearing white trousers and a dark jacket.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
By David Pilditch in Praia da Luz Saturday August 18,2007
So if true he was heading towards Kate's rocks.
During their visit, the McCanns stopped by Nossa Senhora da Luz, the church where Kate McCann had prayed each day after her 3-year-old daughter’s disappearance. "It was so quiet and peaceful -- a real sanctuary," Kate McCann wrote on her Web site. "We then walked down to the rocks on the beach, with its crashing waves and sense of vastness and freedom -- another place where I've always felt able to reach out to Madeleine and find a little solace."
If you knew there were trenches already dug you would take that risk. I don't think there would be people hanging round the church or that derelict house opposite. It could be easy to slip through the back of the church unnoticed in the dark.
A problem with a construction trench is that if you fill part of it in, next morning the construction workers are going to notice?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 17, 2014, 09:04:21 PM
The church in Luz was subject to ---
The convenience store opposite the church. (It show up very well in a post about 3 pages back, when Gerry and Kate went to a late night Mass.) Bright artificial illumination.
Being on the ONLY vehicle accessible route to the 5 restaurants just south of the church. Parking for Chaplin´s down to O Marujo was the hard-baked dirt square opposite the Fortaleza.
Cars, traffic, but it gets worse. Just to the north of the church is the Luz Tavern, which had been refurbished in Feb 2007 and which had had re-opened for business. It had, take your pick, a licence to 4am or a licence to 2am. Stories differ.
Finally, that post about 3 pages back also shows in the background one of the local banks. (Credit Agricola?) The importance of that post is that it shows, very close to 3rd May 2307, there was, very near to the church ---
A convenience store aka open late at night. Traffic!
A cashpoint, aka open 24 hours per day.
Then there are the restaurants. Some shutting down and going home. Some not.
And traffic, traffic, traffic.
Luz was being dug up. To get to the church or the place beside the church you had to get beyond the places that were being dug at that time. The statements show Rua Helena was dug up at that time. And a part of Rua Dirieta, near the south end, but some way away from the church, was also being dug up.
Problems, problems, problems. Too much activity. Too many people.
If you think a man walked though this area, (or buried a victim next to), carrying a kidnapped child, please explain what you think about the ATM. The Luz Tavern. The 5 restaurants. The car parks.
ShiningInLuz calling misscarriageofjusticece. Is the truth an option?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 17, 2014, 11:46:15 PM
Smithman the prime suspect was seen heading down Rua 25 de Abril which leads to the church. If a witness did in fact see him pass the church then he was heading to the beach. You could hide a body temporarily on the beach/rocks in the dark but you would have to move it again possibly along the beach and up to the cliff face/rocha negra by first light otherwise it would be found. Smithman knew his destination when passing the Smith family. That whole area should be searched.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 18, 2014, 12:51:35 AM
The convenience store opposite the church. (It show up very well in a post about 3 pages back, when Gerry and Kate went to a late night Mass.) Bright artificial illumination.
Being on the ONLY vehicle accessible route to the 5 restaurants just south of the church. Parking for Chaplin´s down to O Marujo was the hard-baked dirt square opposite the Fortaleza.
Cars, traffic, but it gets worse. Just to the north of the church is the Luz Tavern, which had been refurbished in Feb 2007 and which had had re-opened for business. It had, take your pick, a licence to 4am or a licence to 2am. Stories differ.
Finally, that post about 3 pages back also shows in the background one of the local banks. (Credit Agricola?) The importance of that post is that it shows, very close to 3rd May 2307, there was, very near to the church ---
A convenience store aka open late at night. Traffic!
A cashpoint, aka open 24 hours per day.
Then there are the restaurants. Some shutting down and going home. Some not.
And traffic, traffic, traffic.
Luz was being dug up. To get to the church or the place beside the church you had to get beyond the places that were being dug at that time. The statements show Rua Helena was dug up at that time. And a part of Rua Dirieta, near the south end, but some way away from the church, was also being dug up.
Problems, problems, problems. Too much activity. Too many people.
If you think a man walked though this area, (or buried a victim next to), carrying a kidnapped child, please explain what you think about the ATM. The Luz Tavern. The 5 restaurants. The car parks.
ShiningInLuz calling misscarriageofjusticece. Is the truth an option?
Shining, I like you.
Something tells me we are going to get a lot of facts and a lot of sense from you.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 18, 2014, 01:18:26 AM
Smithman the prime suspect was seen heading down Rua 25 de Abril which leads to the church. If a witness did in fact see him pass the church then he was heading to the beach. You could hide a body temporarily on the beach/rocks in the dark but you would have to move it again possibly along the beach and up to the cliff face/rocha negra by first light otherwise it would be found. Smithman knew his destination when passing the Smith family. That whole area should be searched.
Well Pathfinder, what makes you think that Smithman would want to walk all that way to the.main beach? And also pass thru the middle of town?
I have measured from the JT sightings and haven't used any finess, but the measurements are near enough.
To go to the western end of the big eastern beach via the Smiths sightings ... down Rua D'Escola and Rua Abril 25 then thru the centre of town, past the church, is a distance of approx 0.55 miles To go to that same bit of beach, taking the direct route, via the quiet alleyways, some side streets and missing the centre of town is only 0.26 miles
I dont really think Smithman would chose to go the round about route that was twice as long as the direct route, do you?
So tbh, that seems to rule out the large eastern beach altogether. Soz. Cos if he were going there, he would have taken the direct alleyway route.
Incidently if Smithman had carried on as far as the Rocha Negro, he would have walked approx. 1.17 miles, carrying a child.
Forget it Pathfinder. I am sure you can find a better solution 8((()*/
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2014, 07:44:10 AM
Well Pathfinder, what makes you think that Smithman would want to walk all that way to the.main beach? And also pass thru the middle of town?
I have measured from the JT sightings and haven't used any finess, but the measurements are near enough.
To go to the western end of the big eastern beach via the Smiths sightings ... down Rua D'Escola and Rua Abril 25 then thru the centre of town, past the church, is a distance of approx 0.55 miles To go to that same bit of beach, taking the direct route, via the quiet alleyways, some side streets and missing the centre of town is only 0.26 miles
I dont really think Smithman would chose to go the round about route that was twice as long as the direct route, do you?
So tbh, that seems to rule out the large eastern beach altogether. Soz. Cos if he were going there, he would have taken the direct alleyway route.
Incidently if Smithman had carried on as far as the Rocha Negro, he would have walked approx. 1.17 miles, carrying a child.
Forget it Pathfinder. I am sure you can find a better solution 8((()*/
In pictures I've seen the church area doesn't look like a busy town centre. But I would like to see images of that area around 10pm on a Thursday night in the beginning of May. The church looks like it's only 50 metres from the rocks/beach. You follow the suspect Sadie. You think he went down the narrow brightly lit steps but if he passed anyone there he would be easily recognised. That defeats the purpose of trying to keep your face/identity hidden from potential eye witnesses. Along the beach is dark and safe and up to the top of the cliff then back down the face if that did happen. I don't think that happened at 10pm and maybe not at all but it's a possibility. Just after 10pm the body was hidden somewhere not far from the church.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 18, 2014, 12:47:11 PM
In pictures I've seen the church area doesn't look like a busy town centre. But I would like to see images of that area around 10pm on a Thursday night in the beginning of May. The church looks like it's only 50 metres from the rocks/beach. You follow the suspect Sadie. You think he went down the narrow brightly lit steps but if he passed anyone there he would be easily recognised. That defeats the purpose of trying to keep your face/identity hidden from potential eye witnesses. Along the beach is dark and safe and up to the top of the cliff then back down the face if that did happen. I don't think that happened at 10pm and maybe not at all but it's a possibility. Just after 10pm the body was hidden somewhere not far from the church.
The Church garden /little grave yard borders straight on to what I think is the most major road junction in PdL. There are only three main roads into / out of Pdl and they all meet there.
So apart from local traffic any traffic in or out of PdL would have to go via that junction. The busiest junction in Pd next to the church.
ShiningInLuz, this thread « on: July 17, 2014, 09:04:21 PM, gives you the picture.
- Chaplins Restaurant (I think I remember the name correctly) right next door. A very busy restaurant - good food when we ate there - Opposite the Church, the Fortezela Restaurant. When we were there that was not so busy. Doesn't have such a good reputation for food altho the ambiance is probably terrific with wide sea views. More expensive - The Bull just around the corner, again a busy pub/ restaurant. We ate there too. - And another three restaurants south of the church from ShiningInLuz
Also the "Alisuper" on the corner opposite the church. As Shining tells us, this is the late night supermarket and there is bright artificial illumination
And the cash machine .... people coming and going there too.
PdL in May must have been a quiet place, but this must be the most active part of PdL, Pathfinder.
Personally I think it unlikely that Smithman got as far as the Church
.... and I certainly do not believe he would have taken such a circuitous route to the eastern beach .... twice as far and more people around than the alleyway route.
Doesn't fit together, Pathfinder.
Think about it and try again 8((()*/
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: stephen25000 on July 18, 2014, 02:14:00 PM
The Church garden /little grave yard borders straight on to what I think is the most major road junction in PdL. There are only three main roads into / out of Pdl and they all meet there.
So apart from local traffic any traffic in or out of PdL would have to go via that junction. The busiest junction in Pd next to the church.
ShiningInLuz, this thread « on: July 17, 2014, 09:04:21 PM, gives you the picture.
- Chaplins Restaurant (I think I remember the name correctly) right next door. A very busy restaurant - good food when we ate there - Opposite the Church, the Fortezela Restaurant. When we were there that was not so busy. Doesn't have such a good reputation for food altho the ambiance is probably terrific with wide sea views. More expensive - The Bull just around the corner, again a busy pub/ restaurant. We ate there too. - And another three restaurants south of the church from ShiningInLuz
Also the "Alisuper" on the corner opposite the church. As Shining tells us, this is the late night supermarket and there is bright artificial illumination
And the cash machine .... people coming and going there too.
PdL in May must have been a quiet place, but this must be the most active part of PdL, Pathfinder.
Personally I think it unlikely that Smithman got as far as the Church
.... and I certainly do not believe he would have taken such a circuitous route to the eastern beach .... twice as far and more people around than the alleyway route.
Doesn't fit together, Pathfinder.
Think about it and try again 8((()*/
Be careful sadie, you are talking as if an abductor is fact. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 18, 2014, 04:20:49 PM
Nice photos, Pathfinder ?>)()<. You have put a lot of work in, finding them
So what happens when the tide comes in?
Suggest you check Google Earth image dated 7/18/2014 . ETA. I am sorry Pathfinder, my eyesight is failing and I read the GE date wrong. It should be 7/16/2011. (highish tide) Another image showing a lowish tide is dated 9/19/2004
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2014, 08:09:43 PM
Nice photos, Pathfinder ?>)()<. You have put a lot of work in, finding them
So what happens when the tide comes in?
Suggest you check Google Earth image dated 7/18/2014
Low tide was 10pm so high tide was at 4am (4 May). Good point about how far up high tide comes in over the rocks. Google Earth link please. It took me 15 minutes to find those images Sadie.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2014, 09:00:10 PM
"And there would be several visits to ‘my rocks’ – a quiet part of the beach away from the promenade. As swimmers and sunbathers preferred the sandy stretches, this area, where the rocks reached down to the water, was usually deserted, and afforded me some shelter and privacy. I still go back there on my visits to Praia da Luz to be on my own."
The next day the McCanns ‘reluctantly’ allowed photographers to picture them “going into church and sitting on the rocks”.
"I had promised my daughter and myself that I would return to Luz, and it had taken a long while for me to be able to do so both safely and in peace. In the middle of winter the village was tranquil. Gerry and I were able to seek solace at Nossa Senhora da Luz, I spent time at my rocks on the beach and we caught up with friends. To this day I still return quietly to Luz from time to time to feel Madeleine close to me.
I happened upon her, walking down to the shore. There she sat alone on the rocks, clutching Madeleine's pink Cuddle Cat toy as always, and gazing out at the Atlantic.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 19, 2014, 12:54:54 AM
Low tide was 10pm so high tide was at 4am (4 May). Good point about how far up high tide comes in over the rocks. Google Earth link please. It took me 15 minutes to find those images Sadie.
Pathfinder, I dont know how to post GE images or I would put it up.
Please note: I am sorry Pathfinder, my eyesight is failing and I read the GE date wrong, it's in very small font. It should be 7/16/2011. (highish tide) Another image showing a lowish tide is dated 9/19/2004
Maybe Pegasus could help please, or John? They both know how to post GE images, I think.
Otherwise , go into GE
1) type * Praia da Luz, Algarve * in the fly box.
2) You will immediately find the coast line at the south of the image.
3) Pull the image to waht you want to look at
4) Zoom in or out according to what you want to see
5) Then look on the band at the top of the image, the one with boxes in it.
6) About 6 boxes from the left, you will see a clock, click on that
7) A slider will come down with dates on it, move the slder to the date you want and the image with change to show historical images
Magic !!!
Hope you can understand my instructions. Good luck with it.
Highish tide = 7/16/2011 Lowish tide = 9/19/2004
Have a look at all the dates to see how it changes in various tidal conditions.
Particularly interesting to me is how the little western beach vanishes at high tide and becomes just a rocky inlet with sea right up to the rocks. I reckon that was a smugglers cove at one time and the cave/ tunnel at the back stored the smuggled stuff, or it was transported thru the ?tunnel to premises behind .... only an educated guess tho.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2014, 01:23:09 AM
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 19, 2014, 02:26:18 PM
The rocks is connected to the Praia Da Luz Church thread that I started. It is an area where a body could be hidden in the dark and the church leads straight to the rocks. Just to clarify why it is included in this thread.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 19, 2014, 02:33:57 PM
The rocks is connected to the Praia Da Luz Church thread that I started. It is an area where a body could be hidden and the church leads straight to the rocks. Just to clarify why it is included in this thread.
Did you mange to open G.Earth and see the high and low tide images?
To remind you the images you specially want are
Highish tide as shown in image dated 7/16/2011 Lowish tide, as shown in image dated 9/19/2004
Hope these help you.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 19, 2014, 02:42:06 PM
"And there would be several visits to ‘my rocks’ – a quiet part of the beach away from the promenade. As swimmers and sunbathers preferred the sandy stretches, this area, where the rocks reached down to the water, was usually deserted, and afforded me some shelter and privacy. I still go back there on my visits to Praia da Luz to be on my own."
The next day the McCanns ‘reluctantly’ allowed photographers to picture them “going into church and sitting on the rocks”.
"I had promised my daughter and myself that I would return to Luz, and it had taken a long while for me to be able to do so both safely and in peace. In the middle of winter the village was tranquil. Gerry and I were able to seek solace at Nossa Senhora da Luz, I spent time at my rocks on the beach and we caught up with friends. To this day I still return quietly to Luz from time to time to feel Madeleine close to me.
I happened upon her, walking down to the shore. There she sat alone on the rocks, clutching Madeleine's pink Cuddle Cat toy as always, and gazing out at the Atlantic.
Seems my post has vanished. I wonder where to?
The top photo is taken at least a month after Madeleine disappeared. Wristbands appeared on June 2nd. 2007. I should hope that they had moments when they smiled occasionally more than a month afterwards and maybe 4 months afterwards. No date on the photo.
In periods of deep depression, flowing water has helped me. In my case a gushing water mill waterfall and rushing bubbling stream had a wonderful calming effect. I used to spend long periods looking at it and come away an almost new person. I recommend it, very therapeutic. The lower photo is taken after Madeleine vanished. Cuddlecat, carried everywhere at that stage, is present
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 19, 2014, 02:44:35 PM
Thanks Sadie. I found this high tide image dated 16 April 2011.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/ser2gj.jpg)
Oh, well done ! As you can see, at high tide, there are no sands where your photos show.
Also at the western end of your image, it is high tide and the little cove shows no beach. At low tide there is a beach . At high tide, no beach, none.
When I climbed down the steps to that little cove, there was no beach and the waves were lapping the top of the rocks. A perfect smugglers cove, cos at high tide a small boat could go right into the cave/tunnel to unload completely out of sight. I wonder where the cave / tunnel came out? Under a building?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 19, 2014, 03:16:42 PM
Oh, well done ! As you can see, at high tide, there are no sands where your photos show.
Also at the western end of your image, it is high tide and the little cove shows no beach. At low tide there is a beach . At high tide, no beach, none.
When I climbed down the steps to that little cove, there was no beach and the waves were lapping the top of the rocks. A perfect smugglers cove, cos at high tide a small boat could go right into the cave/tunnel to unload completely out of sight. I wonder where the cave / tunnel came out? Under a building?
I never said the body was buried under sand. I said it could possibly be temporarily hidden under a rock in the dark.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2014, 03:16:59 PM
A concealment in a cavity in the floor of a church in Scotland remained undiscovered for 5 days. A concealment in an attic space of a church in Italy remained undiscovered for 17 years.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 19, 2014, 03:26:17 PM
A concealment in a cavity in the floor of a church in Scotland remained undiscovered for 5 days. A concealment in an attic space of a church in Italy remained undiscovered for 17 years.
So ?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2014, 03:41:49 PM
I don't think anyone or anything was hidden in the church in this case. However because some peeps are discussing the church, in the context of a missing person, I pointed out two cases.
For me, the interesting one is the Elisa Claps case in Potenza, not because it involved a church building, that is irrelevant, but simply because it is another strong example where police when first alerted (approx 12th September 1993) searched everywhere thoroughly except the very building where the missing person was last seen. And so it went unsolved for 17 years.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2014, 12:39:57 AM
I don't think anyone or anything was hidden in the church in this case. However because some peeps are discussing the church, in the context of a missing person, I pointed out two cases.
For me, the interesting one is the Elisa Claps case in Potenza, not because it involved a church building, that is irrelevant, but simply because it is another strong example where police when first alerted (approx 12th September 1993) searched everywhere thoroughly except the very building where the missing person was last seen. And so it went unsolved for 17 years.
Well there aint much of a church to search there. I only looked in the door IIRC, but it was tiny.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: faithlilly on July 20, 2014, 12:49:26 AM
The body wasn't in the church on the 3 May. It's possible to get a key and later be moved there but to stay there?
Well searching is easy if one drops all preconceptions and follows strictly the "check all physical spaces no matter how absolutely unlikely" method. I don't think anything or anyone was ever hidden in the church (if so just peeking inside and saying oh it's tiny would not be enough, one would need to check every unlikely space, like the top of the tower for example). As I said I think the church is irrelevant, but here is a question, did anyone apply the strict "physical spaces" method to the apartment that night? "If a space exists, check it". I think no-one did.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2014, 03:19:17 AM
Well searching is easy if one drops all preconceptions and follows strictly the "check all physical spaces no matter how absolutely unlikely" method. I don't think anything or anyone was ever hidden in the church (if so just peeking inside and saying oh it's tiny would not be enough, one would need to check every unlikely space, like the top of the tower for example). As I said I think the church is irrelevant, but here is a question, did anyone apply the strict "physical spaces" method to the apartment that night? "If a space exists, check it". I think no-one did.
Eddie would have alerted if the body was hidden under the floor. It wasn't under those tiles.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
Eddie would have alerted if the body was hidden under the floor. It wasn't under those tiles.
I was using the church (even though I think it's irrelevant) as an illustration of the places people don't look, because they have working hypotheses (AKA illogical assumptions). So when peeps look at the church the think immediately of the floor and the possibility of tunnels. But few think of the opposite, the top of the tower above the bell. Back to the relevant place, the apartment, how many searchers (pre-GNR, or GNR, or PJ) state specifically by furniture item name that they looked behind that sofa? Or that they actually looked under the pile of clothes, or inside the bag, or even opened the little doors at the top of the of south bedroom cupboards? None.
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: sadie on July 20, 2014, 12:42:34 PM
I stepped inside and while not huge the church is certainly not tiny.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id66.html
The neighbourhood: Praia da Luz was originally a small fishing village with little white fishermen's cottages and cobbled streets. It has expanded considerably since the 1960s and is now a sprawl of villas and apartments. It is adjacent to the very picturesque beach of Praia da Luz, a golden sandy beach with deep orange cliffs on either side leading to an azure calm sea. There is a promenade complete with palm trees and benches backed by a cluster of cafes, bars and restaurants. Besides being a holiday resort, Praia da Luz is also home to many ex-pats from the UK, Scandinavia and Germany. The village has an air of tranquility and contentment, but it perhaps becomes livelier at the height of the holiday season in July and August. Opposite the church is the Restaurante da Fortaleza, which is next to a 500 year old fortress perched above the rocks.
How full was the building? It was a small church but was almost completely full – I would say there were about 100 people.
There is a photo of the altar which is very impressive. That appears to be in another room opening up into the main church
The interior could not have been lit when I looked in, because the impressive altar never registered . It was pretty dark in there. Few and tiny windows. As you will see after the attacks in Medieval times The church was strengthened with protective walls, so at least 3 feet thick, maybe 5 feet thick? Dunno
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praia_da_Luz
Demographically, the older parish of Luz was a small centre. By the 18th century, following the 1755 Lisbon earthquake, the region was decimated, and many of its residents abandoned the region. The development of the region only began in the second half of the 19th century. The census of 1893 indicated a population of fewer than 1,712 inhabitants.
Religious[edit] Church of Nossa Senhora da Luz (Portuguese: Igreja da Nossa Senhora da Luz). Dedicated to Our Lady of the Light, this medieval church was built around 1521, and was routinely sacked in the 15th and 16th centuries, resulting in the construction of protective walls and defences.
During the 1755 Lisbon earthquake it was badly damaged, and its restoration (1874) was funded by local contributions. In the 20th century, two events (a violent storm and the 1969 earthquake) caused similar damage to the church body.
So here we have a church built centuries ago to cater for the needs of small Praia da Luz. This had to have its structure beefed up to cope with attacks in Medieval times. In such an exposed position it is likely that such a structure would have had substantial walls anyway (3 feet thick?). So probably a good deal thicker now
Before you start shouting about 3 feet thick, this church was in an exposed position, subject to Atlantic type winds, it was a public building, a church, which almost invariably would have far thicker walls than most buildings. My own home, an 18th Century stone built structure, had walls thicker than 2 feet and that was not in an exposed area, neither was it a prestigeous public building.
At Luz we have a very small [parish] church built to cater for the needs of fewer than 2000 people, now a huge sprawling community.
Am just back from a visit to Normandy and Brittany researching my Templar and Huguenot roots. My poor hubby ... I dragged him around inumerable churches and graveyards ... and even in quite small villages the churches were big ... vast a lot of them
.......................................
BTW, the space within the main part of the church [assuming walls only 3 feet deep] is considerably less than twice the size of the entire space within 5A.[assuming walls 1 foot thick] ................Measured on GE
I make The Mccann apartment approx 1064 sq. feet within Main part of the Luz church approx 1800 sq feet within
For a parish Church for a settlement the size of Luz + district
I call that tiny
You call it small. Take your pick.
Nit picking again. What's wrong with you guys?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: Admin on July 23, 2014, 09:53:34 PM
Does anyone happen to know what was the tide status between 9pm and 10pm on the night that Madeleine disappeared?
Title: Re: Praia Da Luz Church
Post by: DCI on July 23, 2014, 10:13:54 PM
Does anyone happen to know what was the tide status between 9pm and 10pm on the night that Madeleine disappeared?
According to Mark Harrison
Tidal Wave Data
Tidal data for the area of Praia Da Luz has been obtained from the buoy near Faro. It collects data on wave height and diredion. However on 3* May 2007 the buoy malfunctioned and stopped collecting data for the month of May. Data is available before and after this period and it could be inferred that these results are consistent with the missing relevant period as there were no exceptional storm events.
On the 2"d May 2007 the waves were of middle energy of a 2m height and a easterly drift. When data was next collected on the 22"6May 2007 they were now low energy waves of 0.5m to I'm with the same easterly winds.
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop. High tide on the 4n May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.
Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and 0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described.
Tidal data for the area of Praia Da Luz has been obtained from the buoy near Faro. It collects data on wave height and diredion. However on 3* May 2007 the buoy malfunctioned and stopped collecting data for the month of May. Data is available before and after this period and it could be inferred that these results are consistent with the missing relevant period as there were no exceptional storm events.
On the 2"d May 2007 the waves were of middle energy of a 2m height and a easterly drift. When data was next collected on the 22"6May 2007 they were now low energy waves of 0.5m to I'm with the same easterly winds.
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop. High tide on the 4n May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.
Therefore if someone deposited a body into the sea, on the night of M McCann's disappearance, from the beach the optimum time window for full access to the whole beach and rocky outcrop was between 2200hrs and 0200hrs. This time window would also be the optimum time for burial in the sand, not withstanding the digability study limitations previously described.
And it goes without saying, that had anything been dropped in the sea at 10pm, it would have been washed in, rather than out to sea.
But an ideal time to pick up by boat, just as the tide is beginning to turn?
The seas were roughening. I can remember that, and there was speculation that had the abduction happened the next day, it might have been rather rough.