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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: John on April 08, 2012, 09:49:44 PM
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Much has been written about the gouge marks on Nevill Bamber's arm. We know that the assailant wore gloves when he carried out the murders so some have asked how was it possible for a gloved individual to have done such a thing.
The answer comes from Julie Mugford and her statement to police. Julie told how Jeremy Bamber had told her that a hit man had carried out the attack on his behalf for £2000. Bamber told her that he had reported back to him that Nevill had put up a fight in the kitchen and that a glove had come off in the assault. There you have it, the only difference is that Jeremy was the attacker and he was recalling events from his own recollection of events.
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Does anyone else think that the marks on Nevill's arms are the same as those on his back? They certainly weren't caused by any rifle barrel.
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Here again are the marks on Nevill's back for comparison purposes.
Mark on arm 04 certainly looks identical to those below.
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Poor Nevill. I wish I could have been there to beat the living daylights out of Bamber. I am sure Nevill would have had him if he wasn't taken by surprise and already shot 3/4 times!
You're right John the marks do look similar on Nevill's arm and back. I don't think American rent an expert is going to change anything!
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Here again are the marks on Nevill's back for comparison purposes.
Mark on arm 04 certainly looks identical to those below.
Nothing deceives like a photograph, John..., especially a b&w one. You can bump up the brightness in Photoshop and make it look like a normal blooded wound, not a burn mark; which makes me think why were we only shown b&w ones, not colour in McKay's documentary. I wonder if colour ones even exist that were examined in the US and whether they were pulling the wool over our eyes again, as they did with the length of the rifle barrels.
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In my humble opinion some of those marks are defensive wounds received probably as a consequence of being jabbed by the end of the rifle which was damaged. Jabbed as in fended off.
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It just goes to show that you cannot take anything for granted when it comes to Tesko. We have heard about these burn marks on Nevill's back but as you say Tim, we have never seen any colour photos of them and I can assure you they do exist.
Lets do the exercise in reverse, here is the Mark on Arm 04 photo alongside the lower back supposed burn injury and both are now in black and white. Spot the difference?
(http://i.imgur.com/hNdCG.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/IRXPF.jpg)
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In my humble opinion some of those marks are defensive wounds received probably as a consequence of being jabbed by the end of the rifle which was damaged. Jabbed as in fended off.
He explained those away as having sustained them on the farm. Makes you wonder though as it wasn't corroborated.
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In my humble opinion some of those marks are defensive wounds received probably as a consequence of being jabbed by the end of the rifle which was damaged. Jabbed as in fended off.
Interesting point me lud! I must admit I assumed the marks to Nevill's back have been identified as burn marks but they do look similar to the arm wounds and look consistent with fending off marks as you suggested.
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The marks on Neville's arms are identical to those seen on people with thinning of the skin, which happens naturally as people get older and can also be caused by long term use of some drugs such as steroids. It tends to affect the limbs more than the torso, and the arms are particularly vulnerable to skin tearing and bruising because they tend to come into contact with things more.
I also wondered why they used B&W photos in the documentary when colour ones are clearly available.
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The marks on Neville's arm remind me of the marks some older people get when on warfarin and some other tablets, they don't really look sinister to me. They could also be bruises from a 'knock' to his arms which I'd expect to happen in the normal course of farming-handling heavy machinery isn't always easy.
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The marks on Neville's arm remind me of the marks some older people get when on warfarin and some other tablets, they don't really look sinister to me. They could also be bruises from a 'knock' to his arms which I'd expect to happen in the normal course of farming-handling heavy machinery isn't always easy.
Thanks John. How do they know the marks on nevile were even made that night? They look like older marks to me, as if theyre starting to heal.
Andrea... Joanne... they are defence wounds caused when Nevill was trying to protect himself from battering with the rifle barrel. As you probably know the ulna is the lower arm bone which faces away from you if you hold your arm up to defend your face. There are several narrow parallel marks which show that he was struck 3 or 4 times in quick succession. (IMO)
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4962/07may1986report05a.jpg)
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John... I don't think the arm photos are available in the document library here, are they?
I know you put them up once before, because I downloaded them (colour and b&w) to my own pc.
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Thanks John. How do they know the marks on nevile were even made that night? They look like older marks to me, as if theyre starting to heal.
Are you referring solely to the burn marks Andrea?
I think it was regarded by Vanezis that they were recent...,
(http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4187/b4rc9a.jpg)
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A lot of people think they could be cigarette burns. This doesn't actually narrow the field of suspects down as lots of people smoked in the 80s including Sheila and Jeremy. 3/8 of an inch would be about the diameter of a cigarette I think.
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A lot of people think they could be cigarette burns. This doesn't actually narrow the field of suspects down as lots of people smoked in the 80s including Sheila and Jeremy. 3/8 of an inch would be about the diameter of a cigarette I think.
I thought that they were cigarette burns when it was first raised in the ITV documentary last Spring, but others disagreed.
I can just picture somebody having completed his vicious task, having a smoke, pulling the pyjama collar back, and stubbing it out three times on the nape of Nevill's neck.
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John... I don't think the arm photos are available in the document library here, are they?
I know you put them up once before, because I downloaded them (colour and b&w) to my own pc.
I have merged the two threads relating to the gouge marks on Nevill's arm. If you scroll back a page you can see the marks clearly.
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The gouge marks on Nevill's arm look as if they have been caused by being battered with the rifle. Could it be that the splintered stock or the magazine caused the damage?
Here is a good picture of the murder weapon giving an idea of its length with the sound moderator fitted.
(http://i.imgur.com/3QFW0.jpg)
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The gouge marks on Nevill's arm look as if they have been caused by being battered with the rifle. Could it be that the splintered stock or the magazine caused the damage?
Here is a good picture of the murder weapon giving an idea of its length with the sound moderator fitted.
(http://i.imgur.com/3QFW0.jpg)
The wounds were caused by something that was both jagged and heavy. Ralph was obviously holding up his good arm to try and defend himself from the severe beating - the broken stock seems most likely.
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The assault on Nevill was a mistake as far as Jeremy Bamber was concerned, just like having to shoot everyone several times and Sheila twice. The frenzied assault on Nevill came about because Jeremy had run out of ammunition and the only way to stop Nevill getting to the kitchen phone was to hit him over the head with the stock of the rifle.
Sheila wasn't as tall as her father and was very light framed, she wouldn't have had the strength to do what was done to Nevill and end up without a mark or a scratch on her. Remember too that whoever assaulted Nevill in the kitchen smashed the glass lampshade and would have had glass on their feet. A bare footed Sheila would have cut her feet and would have had glass shards on the soles of them. Fact is no such glass was found on Sheila's feet.
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The gouge marks on Nevill's arm look as if they have been caused by being battered with the rifle. Could it be that the splintered stock or the magazine caused the damage?
Here is a good picture of the murder weapon showing the damaged stock.
There are several narrow parallel bruises matching the width of the rifle barrel, and several gouge wounds.
Could the latter have been caused by the front-sight hood (the cylindrical part which covers the actual sight itself to stop extraneous light affecting your view when the rifle is aimed in the normal way).
Vanezis noted that there were 4 marks caused by the "rounded end of that object".
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The rifle in your photo looks a different one to the actual murder weapon held by PC Whiddon -
1). The short cylindrical front-sight hood is missing. (arrowed)
2). The stock where his right hand is holding the rifle doesn't look damaged, (arrowed) although it's just as difficult
to see any damage in the Whiddon photo.
If this photo was taken on the 7th. August 1985 why is a moderator fitted, when it was only discovered days later by David Boutflour?
Could this be Anthony Pargeter's Anschütz rifle?
I'm trying to figure out in which part of the house that photo was taken and who it was holding the rifle.... is he a plain clothes policeman?
(http://i.imgur.com/ZKeaPQ0.jpg)
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Undamaged Anschütz 525 (top) compared with damaged stock on the actual murder weapon (bottom)....,
(http://i.imgur.com/k0Dz1Oj.jpg)
Are you confusing the chin cut-out at the stock end of the rifle with the damaged part in the middle?
The damaged stock above the trigger can be seen more easily in the crime scene colour photo of Sheila Caffell. (arrowed)
(http://i.imgur.com/liZzbLE.jpg)
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Myster, I believe this is the same rifle used in the picture I previously posted above.
This was a Press photo taken at the time of the murders and widely used by several newspapers. It stated that it depicted a rifle similar to that used by Jeremy Bamber. Unlike the actual murder weapon it didn't have a foresight hood fitted.
Well spotted! 8((()*/
(http://i.imgur.com/RdhKzyG.gif)
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Here is another one with the police officer holding the actual murder weapon. As you have already stated, the damage to the stock (beneath his raised right thumb) can be clearly seen.
I believe this photo was taken after the trial and after the rifle had been forensically examined.
(http://i.imgur.com/4r6XhXZ.jpg)
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The gouge marks on Nevill's arms were obviously defensive injuries he received somewhere between the bedroom and the kitchen.
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The gouge marks on Nevill's arms were obviously defensive injuries he received somewhere between the bedroom and the kitchen.
CAL states in her book when she met with Dr V he confirmed they were not from fingernails. I thought in the reports on here he refers to them being caused by a blunt instrument. I have taken this to mean the rifle.
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CAL states in her book when she met with Dr V he confirmed they were not from fingernails. I thought in the reports on here he refers to them being caused by a blunt instrument. I have taken this to mean the rifle.
It could have been anything, since the struggle appears to have been a long one. No obvious injury from the struggle, on Jeremy or Sheila. The arm injury could have been when he fell by the fireplace.
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It could have been anything, since the struggle appears to have been a long one. No obvious injury from the struggle, on Jeremy or Sheila. The arm injury could have been when he fell by the fireplace.
What about the scratch marks on Jeremy's arm which Julie reported? That long sleeved cardy was very useful.
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What about the scratch marks on Jeremy's arm which Julie reported? That long sleeved cardy was very useful.
Ah! Julie again. Where did she and Brett disappear too? I will have to do more reading.
Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that a farmer would be without scratches etc.
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Ah! Julie again. Where did she and Brett disappear too? I will have to do more reading.
Anyway, I find it difficult to believe that a farmer would be without scratches etc.
True but she reported them to be fresh scratches which had healed by the time the police got round to interviewing him.
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True but she reported them to be fresh scratches which had healed by the time the police got round to interviewing him.
So no evidence of scratches ever being there. She was acting very much like some others who were embroidering(If that is the correct word in this case) Why elaborate on the damning evidence that she and others gave, if she loved him as much as she said? Did she stop loving him the moment that their relationship broke up?....She says ,not.
Hearsay seems to be all that this case consisted of.
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CAL states in her book when she met with Dr V he confirmed they were not from fingernails. I thought in the reports on here he refers to them being caused by a blunt instrument. I have taken this to mean the rifle.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27947#msg27947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27947#msg27947)
Dr Vanezis recently clarified with CAL that they appeared to be pistol-whips, i.e. with the rifle, where the metal barrel rather than the wooden butt or butt-end is used to strike an opponent, in this case several times on Nevill's right forearm.
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27947#msg27947 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=275.msg27947#msg27947)
Dr Vanezis recently clarified with CAL that they appeared to be pistol-whips, i.e. with the rifle, where the metal barrel rather than the wooden butt or butt-end is used to strike an opponent, in this case several times on Nevill's right forearm.
Without the silencer I assume?
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Without the silencer I assume?
No mention of a moderator concerning pistol-whipping, but if one was attached it may not have come anywhere near his forearm considering the Anschutz long barrel length.
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Would there be a poker-like hook implement associated with the AGA perhaps grabbed in haste,
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Would there be a poker-like hook implement associated with the AGA perhaps grabbed in haste,
These are the tools that were hanging beside the AGA. There was a mega struggle went on in that area, I believe. It is also possible that the burns occurred here too. I think Neville headed for downstairs, for some reason(dog?) and when he heard the gun, he assumed that it was Sheila and phoned the police and ???. Then he ran back upstairs to be greeted by the killer who shot him while s/he was in a higher position than Neville. The struggle downstairs continued and then the killer went to check that they were all dead upstairs, possibly shooting June again. They then planted the gun on Sheila and left, or committed suicide, depending on who it was.
(http://i.imgur.com/fh0Fc.jpg)
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These are the tools that were hanging beside the AGA. There was a mega struggle went on in that area, I believe. It is also possible that the burns occurred here too. I think Neville headed for downstairs, for some reason(dog?) and when he heard the gun, he assumed that it was Sheila and phoned the police and ???. Then he ran back upstairs to be greeted by the killer who shot him while s/he was in a higher position than Neville. The struggle downstairs continued and then the killer went to check that they were all dead upstairs, possibly shooting June again. They then planted the gun on Sheila and left, or committed suicide, depending on who it was.
(http://i.imgur.com/fh0Fc.jpg)
I just posted something similar on another thread, except I wondered if he was up for a calf or as part of the job: it seems much more likely to me. I think if he had been in bed next to June as a valiant ex-serviceman his first instinct would have been to put himself between her and the killer and try to grab the gun irrespective of the consequences: he would have died in the bedroom.
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No mention of a moderator concerning pistol-whipping, but if one was attached it may not have come anywhere near his forearm considering the Anschutz long barrel length.
What about the small piece that stands up on the barrel near the muzzle causing the gouge? Not sure of the tech name but I think it's some sort of basic in-built sight.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=88.msg732#msg732
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Just as an aside, didn't the first bunch of police, who thought they were entering a siege, barge across the kitchen and try to force their way up those stairs, which were clearly being used as a cupboard for junk, only to find it was blocked/locked at the top, and then all squeeze out backwards again and push round the kitchen table: isn't that more likely to have caused all that mess - isn't it all stuff that's fallen out of the stairwell? I'm sure in another photograph I saw the table still set for breakfast, and the pendent light, far from having a shattered glass shade (which logic dictates would fall to the floor) in fact has a shredded-looking blue plastic lampshade. So perhaps the glass was only from the lightbulb, if at all? And I understood it turned out later the sugar was only in one small area of the room and may even have been knocked over by the police barging in?
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Does anyone else think that the marks on Nevill's arms are the same as those on his back? They certainly weren't caused by any rifle barrel.
Could he have been whipped with a dog-lead and the clasp have caused the round marks?
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What about the small piece that stands up on the barrel near the muzzle causing the gouge? Not sure of the tech name but I think it's some sort of basic in-built sight.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=88.msg732#msg732 (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=88.msg732#msg732)
It's a foresight with a clip-on cylindrical light shield, which is normally removed when a telescopic sight is fitted so that doesn't obstruct the view. That could have caused the deeper, smaller open wounds in line with the long narrow bruises.
There's a fixed rear sight, which might also have caused the those wounds, just poking out above the stock near the policeman's left ear.
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Could he have been whipped with a dog-lead and the clasp have caused the round marks?
t could have been anything with the struggle that was going on.
There's door catches if he fell against one(they are quite sharp on the old doors(like mine) and of course so many knobs and handles on the aga.
The burn marks on his back are more interesting.
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t could have been anything with the struggle that was going on.
There's door catches if he fell against one(they are quite sharp on the old doors(like mine) and of course so many knobs and handles on the aga.
The burn marks on his back are more interesting.
Anna what makes you think there was a "struggle"?
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Just as an aside, didn't the first bunch of police, who thought they were entering a siege, barge across the kitchen and try to force their way up those stairs, which were clearly being used as a cupboard for junk, only to find it was blocked/locked at the top, and then all squeeze out backwards again and push round the kitchen table: isn't that more likely to have caused all that mess - isn't it all stuff that's fallen out of the stairwell? I'm sure in another photograph I saw the table still set for breakfast, and the pendent light, far from having a shattered glass shade (which logic dictates would fall to the floor) in fact has a shredded-looking blue plastic lampshade. So perhaps the glass was only from the lightbulb, if at all? And I understood it turned out later the sugar was only in one small area of the room and may even have been knocked over by the police barging in?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=168.0;attach=291
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These are the tools that were hanging beside the AGA. There was a mega struggle went on in that area, I believe. It is also possible that the burns occurred here too. I think Neville headed for downstairs, for some reason(dog?) and when he heard the gun, he assumed that it was Sheila and phoned the police and ???. Then he ran back upstairs to be greeted by the killer who shot him while s/he was in a higher position than Neville. The struggle downstairs continued and then the killer went to check that they were all dead upstairs, possibly shooting June again. They then planted the gun on Sheila and left, or committed suicide, depending on who it was.
There was no phone call from Nevill to the police that morning... the only one they received was from Jeremy Bamber.
Most of the shell casings were found on the floor of the master bedroom, so Nevill was shot and wounded there, not on the stairs lower down than his assailant.
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Anna what makes you think there was a "struggle"?
I thought that Neville had tried to stop the shooter and therefore there would have been a struggle to protect himself. I had better do some more reading, I think.
And all that about shell cases could they not have been moved? I suspect the whole scene as it was found was staged to look the way that the killer wanted it to look. The police didn't do too much in observing the scene, because they believed that SC done it.
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I thought that Neville had tried to stop the shooter and therefore there would have been a struggle to protect himself. I had better do some more reading, I think.
And all that about shell cases could they not have been moved? I suspect the whole scene as it was found was staged to look the way that the killer wanted it to look. The police didn't do too much in observing the scene, because they believed that SC done it.
My understanding/interpretation is that NB sustained four gunshot wounds upstairs (as evidenced by bullet casings and pathology report). Two shots to his face would have killed him had the other shots to his head in the kitchen not supervened. That's how serious the facial shots were. The pathologist states they would have caused extreme pain and loss of blood internally and externally. The shot he received to his left arm rendered it "totally impaired". The other shot was to the shoulder and only grazed it. Therefore I have deduced from this that by the time NB reached the kitchen he was in no fit state to struggle with anyone. Hence Dr V refers to a "spirited defence". My interpretation of all of this is that NB was only capable of raising his right arm to shield himself from the blows raining down from the rifle.
A "struggle" contradicts JM's WS's where she talks of NB putting up a fight in the kitchen. It also contradicts the relatives theories about a "struggle" in the kitchen with the silencer damaging the Aga surround. I'm convinced there was no struggle and this is supported by Peter Sutherest, photographic expert, analysing SoC photos and coming to the conclusion that the scratch marks on the Aga surround were made AFTER the tragedy!
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Peter Sutherst's findings were contradicted by another photographic expert and so correctly rejected by the CCRC.
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Peter Sutherst's findings were contradicted by another photographic expert and so correctly rejected by the CCRC.
I thought the CCRC said police wit stats must take precedence over Peter Sutherst's findings? Do we have the details of this other expert's findings?
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Certainly I think it's much more likely SC would do the twins first (and pull so hard on the trigger that the gun fired more than necessary - but perhaps one shot each at first and then returned later to be sure), but that JB would do Nevill first: which is why I find it odd that it is was June who most of the action seems to have been aimed at in the bedroom. I don't think Nevill was in the bedroom when June was shot, I think he was downstairs, either up and about for something farming-related or talking to SC. I read somewhere that only SC had partially-digested food in her stomach even though they had all eaten together, indicating she was up and ate something during the night and perhaps this disturbed Nevill and he went down to join her, then whilst putting the kettle on maybe he heard shots above his head from the boys room, phoned for help, dashed upstairs whilst June was being shot on the bed, was beaten back with shots to the face and arm fired from within the bedroom, ran back downstairs and collapsed in his chair, where the assailant beat him with the gun which was reloaded for more finishing shots to all the victims.
I think the marks to the arm most look like he was hit with the rifle barrel with the integral sight making the rounded bruises: and that strikes me as quite a feminine way of hitting someone with a rifle (in those days perhaps?). Having read up on and posted links to the surprising ability of the brain to keep functioning despite being shot, allowing people whose front temperature lobes are damaged to keep running for up to 20 secs, I'd say NB was only able to react instinctively and turn to protect his injured left shoulder and raise his right arm over his head to receive the blows. I don't think he was able to struggle, he was already too badly injured. It would be obvious he could not call for help and he was on the other side of the kitchen from the phone: whoever beat him was either very angry or panicking he wouldn't die. I would have thought at this point Bamber would know he stood between the phone and Nevill, he had the bullets in a box beside him and he would have calmly reloaded without the panick. But then I think he would have known the likelihood of a .22 killing a man as big as Nevill and shot him in the head repeatedly as the first victim. Hitting with a 'stick' is more the sort of aggression I'd expect from a feminine woman not used to fighting. And I believe she had previously set about SC hitting him as well? (Do correct me if I got that bit wrong!)
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I thought the CCRC said police wit stats must take precedence over Peter Sutherst's findings? Do we have the details of this other expert's findings?
I've wasted soooo much time searching for his name on the net. Seen it in the distant past so might have been deleted. You'll just have to take my word... for once!
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I thought the CCRC said police wit stats must take precedence over Peter Sutherst's findings? Do we have the details of this other expert's findings?
Wasn't there a TV programme done about the case which challenged Mr Sutherst's view?
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I've wasted soooo much time searching for his name on the net. Seen it in the distant past so might have been deleted. You'll just have to take my word... for once!
Yes you're right...for once! 8(0(*
Andy Laws of LGC forensics challenged the findings on the basis they were inconclusive:
Point 5:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensic-evidence
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Yes you're right...for once! 8(0(*
Andy Laws of LGC forensics challenged the findings on the basis they were inconclusive:
Point 5:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensic-evidence
However you look at it, the whole moderator thing stinks. I think they all thought it was impossible for a suicide to shoot themselves twice so hunted around for some 'evidence'.
That all perfectly illustrates the reversal of burden of proof in this case as well: the onus should be on proving the moderator - which would be inadmissible in a modern court because of the manner in which it was found - was on the gun, not the defence having to prove it wasn't, but the CCRC will only accept evidence that unequivocally contradicts the original flawed evidence.
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Certainly I think it's much more likely SC would do the twins first (and pull so hard on the trigger that the gun fired more than necessary - but perhaps one shot each at first and then returned later to be sure), but that JB would do Nevill first: which is why I find it odd that it is was June who most of the action seems to have been aimed at in the bedroom. I don't think Nevill was in the bedroom when June was shot, I think he was downstairs, either up and about for something farming-related or talking to SC. I read somewhere that only SC had partially-digested food in her stomach even though they had all eaten together, indicating she was up and ate something during the night and perhaps this disturbed Nevill and he went down to join her, then whilst putting the kettle on maybe he heard shots above his head from the boys room, phoned for help, dashed upstairs whilst June was being shot on the bed, was beaten back with shots to the face and arm fired from within the bedroom, ran back downstairs and collapsed in his chair, where the assailant beat him with the gun which was reloaded for more finishing shots to all the victims.
I think the marks to the arm most look like he was hit with the rifle barrel with the integral sight making the rounded bruises: and that strikes me as quite a feminine way of hitting someone with a rifle (in those days perhaps?). Having read up on and posted links to the surprising ability of the brain to keep functioning despite being shot, allowing people whose front temperature lobes are damaged to keep running for up to 20 secs, I'd say NB was only able to react instinctively and turn to protect his injured left shoulder and raise his right arm over his head to receive the blows. I don't think he was able to struggle, he was already too badly injured. It would be obvious he could not call for help and he was on the other side of the kitchen from the phone: whoever beat him was either very angry or panicking he wouldn't die. I would have thought at this point Bamber would know he stood between the phone and Nevill, he had the bullets in a box beside him and he would have calmly reloaded without the panick. But then I think he would have known the likelihood of a .22 killing a man as big as Nevill and shot him in the head repeatedly as the first victim. Hitting with a 'stick' is more the sort of aggression I'd expect from a feminine woman not used to fighting. And I believe she had previously set about SC hitting him as well? (Do correct me if I got that bit wrong!)
Passer-by just a quickie on the above - CAL met with Dr V for her book she mentions the partially digested food and Dr V stated it was no different for the other victims he just didn't note it!
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Gouge marks please!
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Yes you're right...for once! 8(0(*
Andy Laws of LGC forensics challenged the findings on the basis they were inconclusive:
Point 5:
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensic-evidence (http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/forensic-evidence)
You're a better woman than I am, Holly Din.
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Gouge marks please!
I think we've exhausted the gouge marks - they were defence wounds caused by pistol-whipping... with the rifle barrel.
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I think we've exhausted the gouge marks - they were defence wounds caused by pistol-whipping... with the rifle barrel.
I agree.