UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: carlymichelle on October 25, 2013, 01:03:51 PM
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during one of their 30 minute checks wouldnt they have heard her crying?? if mrs fern did why didnt they??
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during one of their 30 minute checks wouldnt they have heard her crying?? if mrs fern did why didnt they??
Because they didn't check. imo
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Mrs Fenn
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during one of their 30 minute checks wouldnt they have heard her crying?? if mrs fern did why didnt they??
who's mrs FERN!! ?
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Mrs Fenn lived in the apartment above the McCann's.
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Mrs Fenn lived in the apartment above the McCann's.
yes I know that ...was just wondering who mrs fern was ?
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stupid thread anyway 8-)(--)...how we supposed to know the answer..you'll have to ask the mccanns carly ..
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Mrs Fenn lived in the apartment above the McCann's.
thats what im sayying if she heard maddie why didnt the mcanns or any of the tapas checking on her??
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Pamela Fenn:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
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stupid thread anyway 8-)(--)...how we supposed to know the answer..you'll have to ask the mccanns carly ..
Almost as stupid as the doctor who one
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Well it appears that more regular checks were done on the night Madeleine disappeared than on that night.
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Almost as stupid as the doctor who one
@)(++(* exterminate!!!
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during one of their 30 minute checks wouldnt they have heard her crying?? if mrs fern did why didnt they??
Carly, I think you'll find that there is already a thread on this:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.0
As Mrs Fenn wasn't even interviewed until mid-August, and was not re-interviewed to clarify, nor was any reconstruction as to where the sound may have actually come from apparently conducted, nor was her friend interviewed to corroborate the date/time, there is no way of verifying who she actually heard crying, nor even if it was one child during that time.
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Carly, I think you'll find that there is already a thread on this:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.0
As Mrs Fenn wasn't even interviewed until mid-August, and was not re-interviewed to clarify, nor was any reconstruction as to where the sound may have actually come from apparently conducted, nor was her friend interviewed to corroborate the date/time, there is no way of verifying who she actually heard crying, nor even if it was one child during that time.
Carana, you have no evidence for those affirmations, therefore you're libelling the PJ, not to mention late Mrs Fenn.
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You seem to have got into the habit of accusing posters of libelling or defaming (IOW lying) although you show no evidence to prove that. It's becoming tedious. Either provide evidence or please stop doing it. It is an abuse of posters IMO.
You're finally showing how civilised you are ! I'm not asking you to be nice though.
Please let the mods put me on watch or ban me if they feel they have to, this is not your job.
It is libel, yes, and a shameful one because she can't defend herself any more, to suggest late Mrs Fenn's statement wasn't accurate only because what she said doesn't suit your agenda.
And it is a lie, yes, whether you like it or not, it is a shameful lie to pretend and spread that Mr Amaral slept while he precisely didn't sleep that night because he worked for the sake of Madeleine.
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Pamela Fenn:
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
The thing is the DATE is out of sync with what Mrs McCann her self said....
On the morning of the 3rd May she was chastised by her daughter maddy as she asked her why she didnt come when she was crying.......
So could there have been two nights the child was crying.....
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The thing is the DATE is out of sync with what Mrs McCann her self said....
On the morning of the 3rd May she was chastised by her daughter maddy as she asked her why she didnt come when she was crying.......
So could there have been two nights the child was crying.....
Or might the child not have been Madeleine at all?
Mrs Fenn believes the crying came (according to her statement) from the floor below. But the McCanns were two floors below her apartment weren't they?
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The thing is the DATE is out of sync with what Mrs McCann her self said....
On the morning of the 3rd May she was chastised by her daughter maddy as she asked her why she didnt come when she was crying.......
So could there have been two nights the child was crying.....
Mrs Fenn only heard one child crying on the 1st. Madeleine refers to both herself and Sean crying - IMO that rules out the possibility that her comment to her parents was related to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st - 2 nights before.
According to Amarals book, Madeleine cried for 45 mins. on the 1st May - although he offers no proof of this - and doesn't mention Mrs Fenn's name, no doubt because that is not what she said.
He then goes on to change the date Madeleine spoke to parents from the 3rd to the 2nd, to convince the reader that it was definitely Madeleine who was crying on the 1st May as it was the very next morning that she spoke to her parents about it.
He also changes what Madeleine said to her parents by claiming she asked why they didn't come when SHE cried (or words to that effect) - completely removing Sean's name from the equation to make it fit in with the claim that only ONE child was heard.
How anyone could claim that everything in his book is taken from the files is beyond me.
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Carana, you have no evidence for those affirmations, therefore you're libelling the PJ, not to mention late Mrs Fenn.
As we only have one quote level, I'm copying the post to which you were accusing me of defamation:
Quote from: Carana on October 25, 2013, 03:43:47 PM
Carly, I think you'll find that there is already a thread on this:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.0
As Mrs Fenn wasn't even interviewed until mid-August, and was not re-interviewed to clarify, nor was any reconstruction as to where the sound may have actually come from apparently conducted, nor was her friend interviewed to corroborate the date/time, there is no way of verifying who she actually heard crying, nor even if it was one child during that time.
My comment is based on what I've found in the files: i.e., nothing aside from a statement taken in August 07. If you have found anything else, please share.
Do show me in which way I have defamed Mrs. Fenn. A recollection is just that, particularly (though not only) for an elderly lady 3 months after the event.
What do you find defamatory in suggesting that the PJ should have interviewed her before late August? Or actually checked with her friend as to whether the date/time was accurate? Or where the sound actually came from?
Wouldn't that be normal investigative procedure?
Edited for jumbled words.
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Or might the child not have been Madeleine at all?
Mrs Fenn believes the crying came (according to her statement) from the floor below. But the McCanns were two floors below her apartment weren't they?
No.
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http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html
Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.
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Or might the child not have been Madeleine at all?
Mrs Fenn believes the crying came (according to her statement) from the floor below. But the McCanns were two floors below her apartment weren't they?
No.
Do explain why not.
Mrs Fenn is clear that the crying was on the floor below.
Madeleine and her siblings were not on the floor below, weren't they?
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As we only have one quote level, I'm copying the post to which you were accusing me of defamation:
Quote from: Carana on October 25, 2013, 03:43:47 PM
Carly, I think you'll find that there is already a thread on this:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1237.0
As Mrs Fenn wasn't even interviewed until mid-August, and was not re-interviewed to clarify, nor was any reconstruction as to where the sound may have actually come from apparently conducted, nor was her friend interviewed to corroborate the date/time, there is no way of verifying who she actually heard crying, nor even if it was one child during that time.
My comment is based on what I've found in the files: i.e., nothing aside from a statement taken in August 07. If you have found anything else, please share.
Do show me in which way I have defamed Mrs. Fenn. A recollection is just that, particularly (though not only) for an elderly lady 3 months after the event.
What do you find defamatory in suggesting that the PJ should have interviewed her before late August? Or actually checked with her friend as to whether the date/time was accurate? Or where the sound actually came from?
Wouldn't that be normal investigative procedure?
Edited for jumbled words.
Carana, I find "defamation" suggesting Mrs Fenn was old then could have been deaf, heard another child, had no notion of time, thought she called a friend but didn't etc., first because she died and can't object to this and then because Mrs Fenn behaved an exemplary way, shutting her door to the invading media, not jumping on top of the police to claim she had heard cries, just stating a fact when asked, without giving her opinion on it and finally because she appeared to be a caring person, disturbed up to the point of calling a friend because a child had been crying for a long time.
Why don't you let Mrs Fenn rest in peace ? Why should it be the McCanns who said the truth (though they were out), why should you deduce that Mrs Fenn didn't ?
I'm sorry but I can't find, for your regular bringing back the Mrs Fenn issue, a justification that wouldn't be the discredit one.
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Carana, I find "defamation" suggesting Mrs Fenn was old then could have been deaf, heard another child, had no notion of time, thought she called a friend but didn't etc., first because she died and can't object to this and then because Mrs Fenn behaved an exemplary way, shutting her door to the invading media, not jumping on top of the police to claim she had heard cries, just stating a fact when asked, without giving her opinion on it and finally because she appeared to be a caring person, disturbed up to the point of calling a friend because a child had been crying for a long time.
Why don't you let Mrs Fenn rest in peace ? Why should it be the McCanns who said the truth (though they were out), why should you deduce that Mrs Fenn didn't ?
I'm sorry but I can't find, for your regular bringing back the Mrs Fenn issue, a justification that wouldn't be the discredit one.
What you believe is defamation is simply questioning. Something anti McCanns loudly claim is their right.
And I am shocked that you are so keen all the time to scream defamation at every possible juncture when Portugal is so keen on "freedom of speech" anyway?
As for your belief that the only reason for looking at a witness statement is to discredit the person who made the statement I am equally shocked. Do you not understand that it is necessary to investigate all statements and to determine what the truth is in them and what may be erroneous? Do you seriously believe that every word given in every statement to the police is accurate? Even when people are sincerely being as honest as they can they can get details very wrong.
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http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html
Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.
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Mrs Fenn made a deposition to the PJ
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg)
if you care to know the translation go to http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm)
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According to Amarals book, Madeleine cried for 45 mins. on the 1st May - although he offers no proof of this - and doesn't mention Mrs Fenn's name, no doubt because that is not what she said.
Spreading myths... Benice !
Durante uma hora e quinze minutos, entre as
22 h 30 e as 23 h 45, Madeleine chora dentro do apartamento em que
se encontra com os seus dois irmãos, ao mesmo tempo que chama
pelo pai. Só pára de chorar quando os pais regressam a casa.
I think you'll understand what 22h30 and 23h45 mean.
Mrs Fenn's statement is in the files. Haven't you read it ?
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Spreading myths... Benice !
Durante uma hora e quinze minutos, entre as
22 h 30 e as 23 h 45, Madeleine chora dentro do apartamento em que
se encontra com os seus dois irmãos, ao mesmo tempo que chama
pelo pai. Só pára de chorar quando os pais regressam a casa.
I think you'll understand what 22h30 and 23h45 mean.
Mrs Fenn's statement is in the files. Haven't you read it ?
Apparently they didn't.
Check the post above and inform yourselves.
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And I am shocked that you are so keen all the time to scream defamation at every possible juncture when Portugal is so keen on "freedom of speech" anyway?
Why didn't you spare yourself the grotesqueness of that remark ?
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Why didn't you spare yourself the grotesqueness of that remark ?
Because I did not wish to do so and I have the right to express my shock at what I read here.
It is not grotesque to express shock at the fact that people who desire freedom of speech wish to restrict that right for others.
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Why didn't you spare yourself the grotesqueness of that remark ?
This we have to maintain for posterity:
Quote from: gilet on Today at 01:30:13 PM
And I am shocked that you are so keen all the time to scream defamation at every possible juncture when Portugal is so keen on "freedom of speech" anyway?
How amazing, how fantastic that a defamation trial was started by the alleged victims, the parents of a missing child! The same parents that published a book that I would recommend to be put under a XXX rate advert.
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Carana, I find "defamation" suggesting Mrs Fenn was old then could have been deaf, heard another child, had no notion of time, thought she called a friend but didn't etc., first because she died and can't object to this and then because Mrs Fenn behaved an exemplary way, shutting her door to the invading media, not jumping on top of the police to claim she had heard cries, just stating a fact when asked, without giving her opinion on it and finally because she appeared to be a caring person, disturbed up to the point of calling a friend because a child had been crying for a long time.
Why don't you let Mrs Fenn rest in peace ? Why should it be the McCanns who said the truth (though they were out), why should you deduce that Mrs Fenn didn't ?
I'm sorry but I can't find, for your regular bringing back the Mrs Fenn issue, a justification that wouldn't be the discredit one.
I didn't bring up this topic again. Carly hadn't realised that there was already one. I was trying to be helpful and pointed her to the pre-existing thread.
You seem to be insinuating that I doubt her testimony. I don't. I have no reason to doubt that she was a credible witness, to the best of her ability.... questioned only 3 months later, with no apparent double-checking as to whether her recollection was accurate.
What on earth is defamatory?
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This we have to maintain for posterity:
How amazing, how fantastic that a defamation trial was started by the alleged victims, the parents of a missing child! The same parents that published a book that I would recommend to be put under a XXX rate advert.
It is a great shame that you find the book that proclaims a child is dead to be fine even though the author has no proof at all that the child is dead.
And yet you would ludicrously restrict the heartfelt pleas of the mother of that missing child to an XXX category because of her honest remarks about her feelings.
No wonder the impression the world is getting of the Portuguese idea of freedom of speech is that it applies only to certain people.
Its abhorrent to me that people claim it to be perfectly OK that a man can pursue a vendetta against the parents of a missing child and spread disgusting libel about their actions when he cannot provide any proof whatsoever that he is telling the truth.
It is no surprise to me that those parents have sued that man for the vile lies he has published against them.
Till he has some proof that they did what he claimed then he should be held to account and made to admit that he cannot prove anything he has said is true.
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Mrs Fenn made a deposition to the PJ
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg)
if you care to know the translation go to http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm)
Thank you for verifying that her statement was taken on 20 August 2007. Have you found an earlier one? I haven't.
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Thank you for verifying that her statement was taken on 20 August 2007. Have you found an earlier one? I haven't.
Seriously the PJ failed to interview and take a statement from Mrs Fenn who lived only a few metres from the apartment where a child had gone missing, for over 3 months.
I would personally suggest that amounts to gross negligence on their part. How can it possibly be explained?
Were they not interested in what the locals might or might not have seen?
It is rather reminiscent of the failure to bother to collect the CCTV footage and the fact that they never even checked the Night Creche records, the obvious point where a person carrying a child might have come from.
And of course there is the failure to do the basic checking of the Smith sighting till mid October months after the disappearance and oddly just after the dismissal of Amaral from the case.
Its hardly surprising that the UK media have described it as a 'botched' investigation.
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This we have to maintain for posterity:
How amazing, how fantastic that a defamation trial was started by the alleged victims, the parents of a missing child! The same parents that published a book that I would recommend to be put under a XXX rate advert.
oh the irony ..why are you so angry luz ..the case has reopened ..im in a really good mood that it has..cant say the same about you ..chill out man!
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Mrs Fenn only heard one child crying on the 1st. Madeleine refers to both herself and Sean crying - IMO that rules out the possibility that her comment to her parents was related to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st - 2 nights before.
According to Amarals book, Madeleine cried for 45 mins. on the 1st May - although he offers no proof of this - and doesn't mention Mrs Fenn's name, no doubt because that is not what she said.
He then goes on to change the date Madeleine spoke to parents from the 3rd to the 2nd, to convince the reader that it was definitely Madeleine who was crying on the 1st May as it was the very next morning that she spoke to her parents about it.
He also changes what Madeleine said to her parents by claiming she asked why they didn't come when SHE cried (or words to that effect) - completely removing Sean's name from the equation to make it fit in with the claim that only ONE child was heard.
How anyone could claim that everything in his book is taken from the files is beyond me.
I am not quoting any files Mrs McCann her self said that she was admonished by her daughter on the 3rd May because she wasnt there when she woke up and cried. Which would mean the child was crying the night before.
Perhaps the date were translated incorrectly who knows, but the child was upset about being left. And the answer to this by Mrs Mccann was to leave her again that night. THOSE ARE FACTS...
.........
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I would personally suggest that amounts to gross negligence on their part. How can it possibly be explained?
Maybe they were ignoring her because they had not solved the break in/burglary in her apartment?
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Is it possible for the original poster to have the decency to correct the name in the title of this thread?
I notice that she is online
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Seriously the PJ failed to interview and take a statement from Mrs Fenn who lived only a few metres from the apartment where a child had gone missing, for over 3 months.
I would personally suggest that amounts to gross negligence on their part. How can it possibly be explained?
Were they not interested in what the locals might or might not have seen?
It is rather reminiscent of the failure to bother to collect the CCTV footage and the fact that they never even checked the Night Creche records, the obvious point where a person carrying a child might have come from.
And of course there is the failure to do the basic checking of the Smith sighting till mid October months after the disappearance and oddly just after the dismissal of Amaral from the case.
Its hardly surprising that the UK media have described it as a 'botched' investigation.
I have no problem in accepting that many did the best they could in difficult circumstances due to a lack of resources (with a caveat that the coordinator, by his own admission, seems to have been frequently directing operations from a restaurant).
Is this normal practice?
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Thank you for verifying that her statement was taken on 20 August 2007. Have you found an earlier one? I haven't.
Carana, are you pretending you ignore why this statement was made on that date ?
The reason is illuminating in two ways, on Mrs Fenn side and on the PJ one.
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I have no problem in accepting that many did the best they could in difficult circumstances due to a lack of resources (with a caveat that the coordinator, by his own admission, seems to have been frequently directing operations from a restaurant).
Is this normal practice?
Didn't I suggest already that you write a handbook about "how institutions should function" and send it to the Constitutional Court ?
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If Mrs Fenn was such a crucial witness, why was she not interviewed until about 6 weeks after the crime (particularly as the witness in closest proximity to the crime as the crime was being committed).
And why is Mrs Fenn on record as saying that she didn't even know the McCanns were living in the holiday apartment?
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Didn't I suggest already that you write a handbook about "how institutions should function" and send it to the Constitutional Court ?
I don't recall that, but perhaps you could send me your copy. ;)
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Carana, are you pretending you ignore why this statement was made on that date ?
The reason is illuminating in two ways, on Mrs Fenn side and on the PJ one.
Could you expand on thhis?
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If Mrs Fenn was such a crucial witness, why was she not interviewed until about 6 weeks after the crime (particularly as the witness in closest proximity to the crime as the crime was being committed).
And why is Mrs Fenn on record as saying that she didn't even know the McCanns were living in the holiday apartment?
Six weeks? Luz has kindly provided the proof that her interview took place on 20 August. I'm not aware of a previous one.
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Six weeks? Luz has kindly provided the proof that her interview took place on 20 August. I'm not aware of a previous one.
Only link to an earlier one is Murat. He told a GNR officer.
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So, according to the statement made by Mrs Fenn to the police, she heard a child cry on the evening of 1st May for an hour an a quarter from 10.30pm until 11.45pm. She was concerned enough to talk to a friend about it as the crying became 'more expressive' as it went on. And the child cried out: 'Daddy, daddy'.
There is no reason to believe that the neighbour lied to police. Why would she?She was concerned enough to speak to a friend about it.
In actual fact, I encountered a situation recently where a child was crying quite loudly in a neighbour's house and sounded distressed. I listened for about 5 minutes. I could hear the voice of the child becoming more anguished. I hesitated. What should I do? In the end I opened the window that looked over the property so I could ascertain more clearly what was going on. I believe at this point that which ever adult was in the house then went into the child's room to calm them down. Another 5 minutes of the kind of crying I had heard and I would have knocked on the front door and expressed concern. An hour and a quarter of distressed crying when I believed there was no adult supervision, or at least inadequate adult supervision - I would have called the police.
Mrs Fenn considered that the child was older than a toddler (in other words more likely to have been Madeleine than the twins). In any event, whether it was Madeleine or the twins, one and a quarter hours of 'expressive' crying at that time in the evening when you would reasonable expect very young children to be extremely tired is not a good sign. It suggests that either there was no adult supervision for the duration of an hour and a quarter which I would suggest, given the ages of the children, is verging on child negligence/neglect; or there was an adult (or more than one adult) present but they were not comforting or calming the child.
Why would that be?
And then we have Kate McCann claiming that Maddie asked both her and Gerry on the morning of Madeleine's alleged abduction 'why did you not come when the twins cried last night?'
If true, this statement would appear to confirm that the McCann parents were, indeed, in the habit of leaving their children alone to cry at night. However, the parents did not express any guilt or shame over this or apologize to their daughter for failing to provide comfort, or reassure her that they would not let that happen again, which is what you would expect and hope for. I imagine it must have been quite scary for Madeleine to know that on at least two occasions her parents had not responded to either her or her siblings crying. However, the parents merely noted that 'she said it in passing' and then 'she dropped it'. How curious. This seems to suggest that the onus was on their three year old daughter to press them on this, rather than the onus being on them, as parents, to reassure and comfort a three year old about being left alone crying in an apartment with two year old siblings.
But curiouser still, what did they then do - how did they modify their behaviour in the light of what Maddie had supposedly said to them. Well, the following evening they left them all alone again with the same system of checking that had lead to all that crying - and, a system which is going to allow a stranger to abduct their child, or so they say.
Rather than showing remorse for ignoring their children's cries, it appears that the McCann's mentioned this alleged comment by Madeleine as a boost to the abduction theory. It raised the possibility that someone had disturbed one of the children when they were sleeping, leading to the crying. In fact, the parents suggested that the abductor entered the apartment the previous evening. They also believed the abductor drugged the children.
How could they be so sure about all this? There is no evidence that a stranger entered the apartment. They alleged that the shutters had been jammed or broken but again there is no evidence for this. If they really believed that the abductor had drugged the children, why were toxicology tests not carried out on the twins? Surely this would be crucial. Why were the twins not woken up and taken to a safe place rather than left alone while Kate ran out of the apartment? The abductor could still have been there or could have had an accomplice (it was a paedophile ring, so they claimed, so more than one person involved).
What a strange Alice in Wonderland world the McCanns seem to live in. They are not worried about child abduction so are happy to leave their children alone at night. But when one of their children disappears they suddenly become convinced that it is abduction - by a paedophile no less. They are sure that Madeleine didn't wander off because 'she would never leave the twins on their own' - good grief, so Madeleine was the babysitter, was she? Madeleine would never leave the twins on their own but it is quite alright for the McCann parents to leave their three children under 4 on their own.
Exactly who is doing the parenting here?
And having left the children on their own, allowing for the opportunity of a paedeophile abduction (even though they never thought it was a risk) the responsibility for the safety of their three year old then passes out of the hands of those who showed a lack of responsibility into the hands of a paedophile abductor. And now the responsibility for Madeleine's 'safe return' is in the hands of the general public who are urged to donate money to the fund.
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Mrs Fenn made a deposition to the PJ
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2412.jpg)
if you care to know the translation go to http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm)
Almost 4 months.
I stand corrected.
Evidently not an important witness so far as the PJ was concerned.
And she is on record as saying she didn't even know a family had moved in to the holiday apartment below.
The crime of which she herself was a victim does get a mention, right at the foot of her interview about events of May 3rd ....
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Almost 4 months.
I stand corrected.
Evidently not an important witness so far as the PJ was concerned.
And she is on record as saying she didn't even know a family had moved in to the holiday apartment below.
The crime of which she herself was a victim does get a mention, right at the foot of her interview about events of May 3rd ....
It's not clear to what extent the attempted burglary in her apartment had been investigated, nor the other one in a different apartment.
Wouldn't a simple burglary have been dealt with by the GNR? If so, did the GNR and the PJ have any common database (if any) at the time? If not, how did the GNR and the PJ interact and share information with respect to their different spheres of responsibility?
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So, according to the statement made by Mrs Fenn to the police, she heard a child cry on the evening of 1st May for an hour an a quarter from 10.30pm until 11.45pm. She was concerned enough to talk to a friend about it as the crying became 'more expressive' as it went on. And the child cried out: 'Daddy, daddy'.
There is no reason to believe that the neighbour lied to police. Why would she?She was concerned enough to speak to a friend about it.
I find a few things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.
1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten.
Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.
2. She rang her friend Edna to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.
3. She listened to crying for and hour and 15 minutes, and did nothing.
4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.
5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.
Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.
If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?
ETA. Correct time!
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I find a few things odd about Mrs Fenn's translated statement.
1. Mrs Fenn was in the living room, on the back of her apartment, watching News at Ten.
Madeleine's bedroom was on the front of 5a, but she manages to hear the words 'Daddy, daddy'.
2. She rang her friend Edna to tell her. And according to Murat, she rang him.
3. She listened to crying for and hour and 45 minutes, and did nothing.
4. She never mentioned it to her niece or her son.
5. She never told the McCann's. Even when she spoke to Gerry.
Come on, a woman of her age not doing something about this, is just unbelieveable.
If she made a statement on the 4th May, where is it?
Link please to Murat's statement regarding Mrs Fenn ?
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Spreading myths... Benice !
Durante uma hora e quinze minutos, entre as
22 h 30 e as 23 h 45, Madeleine chora dentro do apartamento em que
se encontra com os seus dois irmãos, ao mesmo tempo que chama
pelo pai. Só pára de chorar quando os pais regressam a casa.
I think you'll understand what 22h30 and 23h45 mean.Mrs Fenn's statement is in the files. Haven't you read it ?
I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried. It was a genuine error - for which I apologise: The rest of my post stands.
From Amarals book
Tuesday May 1st.
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE
Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.
Amaral lies about the date: It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.
Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.
His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe. His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO
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It's not clear to what extent the attempted burglary in her apartment had been investigated, nor the other one in a different apartment.
Wouldn't a simple burglary have been dealt with by the GNR? If so, did the GNR and the PJ have any common database (if any) at the time? If not, how did the GNR and the PJ interact and share information with respect to their different spheres of responsibility?
All questions the GNR and the PJ are the only entities which could reply to, Carana. Why do you insist on asking on this forum ? It doesn't make sense, unless..
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I even remember just now that I offered to translate a letter with your questions.
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It's not clear to what extent the attempted burglary in her apartment had been investigated, nor the other one in a different apartment.
Wouldn't a simple burglary have been dealt with by the GNR? If so, did the GNR and the PJ have any common database (if any) at the time? If not, how did the GNR and the PJ interact and share information with respect to their different spheres of responsibility?
Mrs Fenn's interview (with the PJ) was first billed as an interview about the attempted burglary of her flat.
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I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried. It was a genuine error - for which I apologise: The rest of my post stands.
From Amarals book
Tuesday May 1st.
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE
Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.
Amaral lies about the date: It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.
Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.
His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe. His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO
How could Mrs Fenn name a child, she didn't know this family ? She said she heard a child, not a toddler. Madeleine was the only child in that side of the building.
Instead of accusing Mr Amaral to lie about the date (without explaining why he should lie), you should perhaps note that Mrs McCann took good care to never suggest when the crying episode reported by Madeleine happened.
When the McCanns say something, the fact isn't this something, but that they said it.
Concerning the attempt of Mr Amaral to merge both episodes (Mrs Fenn's and alleged Madeleine's). I don't think he should have done it, but I can't find any malice in this.
My question here is : what do you think Mr Amaral is trying to put in the reader's head ?
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http://www.mccannfiles.com/id356.html
Mrs Pamela Fenn - statement, 20 August 2007
'She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
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How could Mrs Fenn name a child, she didn't know this family ? She said she heard a child, not a toddler. Madeleine was the only child in that side of the building.
Instead of accusing Mr Amaral to lie about the date (without explaining why he should lie), you should perhaps note that Mrs McCann took good care to never suggest when the crying episode reported by Madeleine happened.
When the McCanns say something, the fact isn't this something, but that they said it.
Concerning the attempt of Mr Amaral to merge both episodes (Mrs Fenn's and alleged Madeleine's). I don't think he should have done it, but I can't find any malice in this.
My question here is : what do you think Mr Amaral is trying to put in the reader's head ?
She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
How much difference is there between the cry of a 2 year old to a 3 year old?. Of course it was with malice, he said it was Madeleine, it suited him to do so.
Amaral was/did put into readers heads his version of events.
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I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried. It was a genuine error - for which I apologise: The rest of my post stands.
From Amarals book
Tuesday May 1st.
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE
Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.
Amaral lies about the date: It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.
Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.
His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe. His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
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I stand corrected it was 1hr and 15 mins that Amaral claimed Madeleine cried. It was a genuine error - for which I apologise: The rest of my post stands.
From Amarals book
Tuesday May 1st.
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45pm, in the apartment where she is in the company of her brother and her sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until after her parents return.
Wednesday May 2nd
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
END QUOTE
Mrs Fenn did not name anyone - which IMO is why Amaral does not mention her name when claiming as a 'fact' Madeleine cried on the 1st May.
Amaral lies about the date: It was not on Wednesday 2nd May that Madeleine spoke to her parents it was Thurs 3rd May.
Amaral leaves out any mention of Sean's name - as that would contradict the fact that only ONE child was heard crying.
His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe. His version of events is not what is in the files.
IMO
"His account is a gross distortion of the facts and is done to manipulate the reader into believing what he wants them to believe.
His version of events is not what is in the files."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2591.msg85335#new
The Judge (Maria Emília de Melo e Castro) is now asking
MC – What are the revelations of the book?
RP asks the Judge to explain...
MC interrupts and repeats – What is new in this book?
RP Compared to the investigation, nothing.
The Judge seizes the book, on her desk, and waves it in the direction of the screen.
MC – Doesn't the cover say it has unique revelations?
TVI's lawyer says "no".
The Judge asks him to kindly not comment.
RP answers that there is nothing new in the book.
MC – Shall I have to conclude then that what's on the cover is misleading publicity?
RP mumbles.
MC – Is there or is there not?
RP mumbles.
MC insists again and again RP mumbles.
MC – Then there are no revelations!
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http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
But why the need to say, "not a baby of two years of age or younger"?.
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But why the need to say, "not a baby of two years of age or younger"?.
What terms are used in conversational Portuguese to distinguish between baby and a slightly older child?
Eta: it's an odd phrase. What was she actually asked?
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Could you expand on thhis?
Come on, Carana, you know very well why Mrs Fenn didn't speak earlier ! Should I wonder whether you're embarrassed by the delicacy of this lady ?
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But why the need to say, "not a baby of two years of age or younger"?.
The translator made her specify the age in order to have no lost in translation.
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She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
How much difference is there between the cry of a 2 year old to a 3 year old?. Of course it was with malice, he said it was Madeleine, it suited him to do so.
Amaral was/did put into readers heads his version of events.
Whether Madeleine or her sibling, a child cried for 75 minutes calling daddy in the 5A.