UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Benita on November 04, 2013, 09:36:53 PM
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Does anyone think its strange how two little girls go missing ...and Amaral chose the same body in a fridge theory ...?
Reference to the Joana Capriano and Madeleine McCann cases.
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Joana Cipriano was an eight-year-old Portuguese girl who disappeared from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, in the Algarve, on 12 September 2004. She was last seen buying provisions in a local grocers shop. After a long and difficult investigation, headed by Chief-Inspector Gonçalo Amaral, Leonor Cipriano and her brother were accused of murdering the eight-year-old child.
The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother's refrigerator. Her mother justified those samples of blood admitting she had beaten Joana, for some reason, she was hurt and received a blooded nose.
Controversially, the police later extracted a confession from both her mother and her uncle. Her uncle confessed to having beaten her up after which she stood "quiet on the floor". He said he cut his niece's body in small pieces, put her in a fridge box, then put her inside an old car that was taken to Spain to be crushed and burned. When he was asked if he had sexually abused his niece he said in the presence of his lawyer "I did not harm her, I only killed her".
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THE parents of Madeleine McCann have called for an end to the "hurtful" smear campaign after sensational new claims that her mother hid her corpse in a fridge after accidentally killing her.
Tomorrow is the 150th day since Madeleine disappeared. Kate and Gerry McCann will attend a church service near their home in Rothley, Leceistershire, but there will be no special event to generate publicity.
It was claimed yesterday that police in Portugal now believe that Kate McCann killed Madeleine while putting her to bed at their holiday apartment in Praia da Luz between 7pm and 8.30pm on May 3 and then hid her corpse in a fridge, with the help of friends.
The respected Diario de Noticias newspaper said officers believed that she accidentally killed Madeleine while her husband was playing tennis.
Her body then "passed through various locations" before going into the boot of the car hired by her parents 25 days after she disappeared, it reported.
As a result, detectives want to inspect fridges at the Ocean Club complex where the McCanns were staying with a group of seven British adults.
A source close to the McCanns said: "That is total rubbish. Have you seen the size of the fridges in those apartments? Of course they did not stuff her in a fridge. Kate was not in the apartment alone with Maddy.
"They had both been playing tennis, then they put her to bed together and were then down for dinner (with their friends) by 8.20pm."
The report is the latest of a series of allegations in the Portuguese media credited to anonymous detectives from the Policia Judiciaria. There are concerns that the McCanns have become victims of "black propaganda" being put out by police to explain why they were made official suspects.
Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' spokesman, said: "We do not know who is putting all this out in Portugal but for the family's sake it's time for it to stop. Every one of these nonsensical allegations causes real pain and hurt for both Gerry and Kate, who cannot help but be aware of them. It makes a most awful situation far, far worse, because they know it's not true.
"I am very grateful for the media support; it is immeasurable in terms of what has been done to help find Madeleine, but these reports are increasing the pain for Kate and Gerry.
"We just hope that everyone can see these ridiculous rumours for what they are. It is very hard on the couple because they are not allowed to talk about the investigation and cannot defend themselves."
www.independent.ie/irish-news/mccanns-agony-at-body-in-fridge-slur-parents-dismiss-new-police-claim-in-maddy-mystery-as-hurtful-26321669.html
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The blood trace in the fridge/freezer doesn't seem to have never been identified.
Therefore, we cannot conclude with certainty that the body, or all parts of the minor’s body were placed inside the deep freezer, but that at least they tried to place it in there, results not only from the reconstitution act, but also from the fact that on the 16th of October 2004, human blood samples were collected from the back interior of the freezer’s second drawer (cfr. Page 585), which was again confirmed by the report of the examination that was performed by the LPC [Scientific Police Lab] (pages 1780 and following, with special attention to pages 1786 (item B) and 1792). It is further recalled that witness CC3 explained that the blood traces that were collected from the inside of the drawer were located precisely on the back panel of the freezer’s second drawer. Now if one should consider the possibility that the human blood that was found could have resulted from the handling of the deep freezer by someone who had a cut to his or her hand, the fact that the human blood was found inside the back part of the drawer sets that possibility aside and points towards the conclusion that a human body part was placed there, or an attempt was made.
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Sorry Benice, I didn't want to introduce yet another Capriano controversy. I am editing my original post.
OK. Fair enough. I would still like to know the source if you have it please.
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OK. Fair enough. I would still like to know the source if you have it please.
www.gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/truth-about-leonor-cipriano-mother-of.html?m=1
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www.gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/truth-about-leonor-cipriano-mother-of.html?m=1
Thankyou.
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I believe Benita's reason for creating this thread was to draw some sort of parallel between the case of Joana Capriano and the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. In both cases the police alleged that the body or body parts were stored in a fridge.
For those readers who are not familiar with the cases, the detective in charge on both occasions was PJ Coordinator Dr Gonçalo Amaral.
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Thanks for the link. Several points in that blog entry seem incorrect.
I'm still curious as to why an unidentified trace of blood "collected from the inside of the drawer were located precisely on the back panel of the freezer’s second drawer" is considered suspicious, in a fridge that was only "apprehended" a month after her disappearance.
...Witness DD further confirmed that the deep freezer that was used in the reconstitution was apprehended at the residence of arguida BB on the 15th of October 2004 (cfr. Pages 578 to 580 and photographs on page 1712 and following).
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The blood trace in the fridge/freezer doesn't seem to have never been identified.
Therefore, we cannot conclude with certainty that the body, or all parts of the minor’s body were placed inside the deep freezer, but that at least they tried to place it in there, results not only from the reconstitution act, but also from the fact that on the 16th of October 2004, human blood samples were collected from the back interior of the freezer’s second drawer (cfr. Page 585), which was again confirmed by the report of the examination that was performed by the LPC [Scientific Police Lab] (pages 1780 and following, with special attention to pages 1786 (item B) and 1792). It is further recalled that witness CC3 explained that the blood traces that were collected from the inside of the drawer were located precisely on the back panel of the freezer’s second drawer. Now if one should consider the possibility that the human blood that was found could have resulted from the handling of the deep freezer by someone who had a cut to his or her hand, the fact that the human blood was found inside the back part of the drawer sets that possibility aside and points towards the conclusion that a human body part was placed there, or an attempt was made.[/b]
I don't understand the logic of that statement.
If a blood trace was obtained then surely a DNA test would have identified it? If the sample was large enough to be identifed as blood - then there should have been no problem in matching it to the owner.
IMO Amaral had to introduce a fridge into the McCann case to explain how a body could be kept for three weeks without decomposing and be in a fit state to ferry about in the boot of a car. Maybe he was influenced by the fact that a previous court appeared to accept unsupported evidence regarding blood in the fridge as proof of guilt - and so it would be the same approach in another case involving a fridge. Who knows - one can only speculate.
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IMO, this is how the system worked for Amaral.
Build up the case against whoever he thought the suspect would be, i.e. build up the theory and then fit the surrounding info into that theory.
Then bring it to the court if the court would accept it.
This is a fast work to 'get rid of the unsolved case.
Then it is up to the public prosecutor to find the fact valuable or not.
In Madelines case his facts were rubbished by the public prosecutor.
What happened with Joanas case I don't know, I stopped following it at some time, the last I heard it was going to be passed to European Court of Justice.. Not sure if this happened or not.
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The Ciprianos were a poor family. Was it a deep freeze or a fridge with a freezer compartment? How big was it?
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The Ciprianos were a poor family. Was it a deep freeze or a fridge with a freezer compartment? How big was it?
Quote
human blood samples were collected from the back interior of the freezer’s second drawer
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That sounds like a small upright freezer to me - as opposed to a chest freezer. I have one. It looks like a normal standard fridge and has a front door opening with three drawers inside. I have had a chest freezer - and IIRC it has no drawers, just one large compartment and a smaller one. There is no facility for drawers in a top opening chest freezer - as you couldn't open them. A standard fridge usually has one freezer compartment.
It would be very interesting indeed to know which type of freezer LC owned.
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I would imagine it was a standard size fridge ...and freezer compartment ...it was said the fridge in 5a was broke and Gerry took it to tip ...not sure if it was made up myth or true ....will have to look it up ....
I just find it strange that amaral uses the same theory for both missing girls both cut up and kept in a fridge ...with no proof ... >@@(*&)
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Jeez not Cipriano again lol....
Does it matter it is of little importance surely. One is completed case the perbs are in prison...
The other case well its still work in progress..
The fridge in 5A was hardly big enough to get a body in. Why put a body in a fridge anyway you just have to put the body in sand, say in a sealed box or suitcase...cover it with a cloth, shut the lid and leave it tight. The body will mummify and will not let out odour....
Simple really and is cheaper to run too as you dont need to keep the electricity on.... 8((()*/
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Jeez not Cipriano again lol....
Does it matter it is of little importance surely. One is completed case the perbs are in prison...
The other case well its still work in progress..
The fridge in 5A was hardly big enough to get a body in. Why put a body in a fridge anyway you just have to put the body in sand, say in a sealed box or suitcase...cover it with a cloth, shut the lid and leave it tight. The body will mummify and will not let out odour....
Simple really and is cheaper to run too as you dont need to keep the electricity on.... 8((()*/
The point is that Amaral used a fridge as an explanatory device in both cases- why and with what evidence was it used with Madeleine?
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It's not clear to me what this "arca" actually was, nor how big. A domestic refrigeration unit of some type. Fridge? Freezer? Combination? Big? Small?
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I would imagine it was a standard size fridge ...and freezer compartment ...it was said the fridge in 5a was broke and Gerry took it to tip ...not sure if it was made up myth or true ....will have to look it up ....
I just find it strange that amaral uses the same theory for both missing girls both cut up and kept in a fridge ...with no proof ... >@@(*&)
Yes - I also tend to think it was a standard fridge with a freezer compartment in 5A. I believe it's a myth that Gerry took a fridge from 5A to the tip - as he had no car. If the fridge in 5a had broken or been replaced - or disappeared - then surely that would be mentioned somewhere in the Witness statements.
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The point is that Amaral used a fridge as an explanatory device in both cases- why and with what evidence was it used with Madeleine?
I'm trying to find one of his articles/interviews which may provide a clue. From memory, it was that a potential explanation for inconclusive or partial DNA results could be due to freezing.
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Jeez not Cipriano again lol....
Does it matter it is of little importance surely. One is completed case the perbs are in prison...
The other case well its still work in progress..
The fridge in 5A was hardly big enough to get a body in. Why put a body in a fridge anyway you just have to put the body in sand, say in a sealed box or suitcase...cover it with a cloth, shut the lid and leave it tight. The body will mummify and will not let out odour....
Simple really and is cheaper to run too as you dont need to keep the electricity on.... 8((()*/
Amaral would disgree with you as the ...'body kept in a fridge'... was his theory - not ours.
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I'm trying to find one of his articles/interviews which may provide a clue. From memory, it was that a potential explanation for inconclusive or partial DNA results could be due to freezing.
I did wonder about that Carana - but have no idea whether freezing would preserve it or destroy it.
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From the Supreme Court document:
Murder of Joana Cipriano.
These are, according to the initial trial, the facts that were proved in court, and those that were not:
"II. FUNDAMENTATION
9. Matter of fact according to the appealed court
9. 1. Facts considered to be proved:
aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer that existed in the living room;
al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;
am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;
an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;
ao) the arguidos did not place the shoes that the minor was wearing, inside the bags, and all the pairs of shoes that the minor was using that summer, stayed inside the house;
9. 2. Facts considered not to be proved:
20- that the arguidos knotted the opening of the bags that contained the torso and the legs;
21- that the arguidos effectively placed the three bags inside the tree compartments of the deep freezer;
www.joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html
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From the Supreme Court document:
Murder of Joana Cipriano.
aj) the arguidos then decided, conjointly, to cut the minor’s body in order to make it possible to store it in the deep freezer that existed in the living room;
al) to pursue that purpose, the arguidos provided themselves with a knife and a metal-cutting saw that were available inside the house, instruments that were apt to obtain the results that they intended, within approximately 30 minutes;
am) with said instruments, helping each other, the arguidos cut CC’s body, separating the head from the torso and cutting the legs at the knee area;
an) each one of those body parts was placed inside plastic bags – the head in one, the torso and part of the legs in another and the two legs below the knee in a third one – and after they knotted up the opening of the bag that contained the head, they tried, at least, to place said bags inside the deep freezer’s three compartments, leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer;
ao) the arguidos did not place the shoes that the minor was wearing, inside the bags, and all the pairs of shoes that the minor was using that summer, stayed inside the house;
I'm aware of that, John. But that's based on the brother's "reconstruction". What were the circumstances surrounding it? Was the interrogation leading up to it filmed?
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Yes - I also tend to think it was a standard fridge with a freezer compartment in 5A. I believe it's a myth that Gerry took a fridge from 5A to the tip - as he had no car. If the fridge in 5a had broken or been replaced - or disappeared - then surely that would be mentioned somewhere in the Witness statements.
I believe that the fridge was from the second apartment the mccanns stayed in, not in the holiday complex, the one from July to September or whatever it was.
As to whether its a myth or not, I haven't a clue! Apparently it was something that Gerry Mccann mentioned in his blog. I've never looked in to it myself.
It seems unlikely that someone would replace a broken fridge in a rental apartment to me though.
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I believe that the fridge was from the second apartment the mccanns stayed in, not in the holiday complex, the one from July to September or whatever it was.
As to whether its a myth or not, I haven't a clue! Apparently it was something that Gerry Mccann mentioned in his blog. I've never looked in to it myself.
It seems unlikely that someone would replace a broken fridge in a rental apartment to me though.
Pamalam kept a record of all of Gerry's blog entries and doesn't seem to have found it either. Until I find anything to the contrary, it would seem more likely to be a spoof posted somewhere that made troofdom.
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I posted the link to the Supreme Court as someone asked what type of freezer it was. Anyone wanting to pursue the Cipriano case should go to the relevant threads.
What we are discussing here is whether the Cipriano case unduly influenced Dr Amaral's judgement?
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Pamalam kept a record of all of Gerry's blog entries and doesn't seem to have found it either. Until I find anything to the contrary, it would seem more likely to be a spoof posted somewhere that made troofdom.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least. It never fails to amaze me how many myths spring up in this case!
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I posted the link to the Supreme Court as someone asked what type of freezer it was. Anyone wanting to pursue the Cipriano case should go to the relevant threads.
What we are discussing here is whether the Cipriano case unduly influenced Dr Amaral's judgement?
Thank you, but what you posted doesn't clarify what type of "refrigeration unit" it actually was.
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A three-drawer freezer would seem to be a standard sized unit capable of sitting under a worktop.
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A three-drawer freezer would seem to be a standard sized unit capable of sitting under a worktop.
Without access to the photos, there is no way of knowing what this "refrigeration unit" actually was. Is there anything to indicate that there was a freezer unit and a separate fridge? I.e. two separate units? I haven't found anything to that effect.
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Without access to the photos, there is no way of knowing what this "refrigeration unit" actually was. Is there anything to indicate that there was a freezer unit and a separate fridge? I.e. two separate units? I haven't found anything to that effect.
Why does it matter?
"Arca" translates to chest, trunk......and "deep freezer" normally denotes a freezer unit as opposed to freezer part of a fridge....
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A three-drawer freezer would seem to be a standard sized unit capable of sitting under a worktop.
If so - then that is the same as my 3-drawer freezer - and I can assure you no way could you get a 6 yr old child's 'cut up' body in it. And the idea that cutting up a body without the proper butchers 'tools 'designed for that purpose could be achieved in 30 mins is preposterous IMO.
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Why does it matter?
"Arca" translates to chest, trunk......and "deep freezer" normally denotes a freezer unit as opposed to freezer part of a fridge....
I find that it matters. It's not clear what an "arca" actually means in context. Is it an "arca frigorífica" (a fridge - which may well have a freezer section as most modern ones do) or an "arca congeladora" (freezer)?
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I find that it matters. It's not clear what an "arca" actually means in context. Is it an "arca frigorífica" (a fridge - which may well have a freezer section as most modern ones do) or an "arca congeladora" (freezer)?
I imagine your reasons for asking lean to the gruesome details, so I will take my leave.......
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I imagine your reasons for asking lean to the gruesome details, so I will take my leave.......
No, they don't. I'm trying to work out what may or may not be true in this case.
What's gruesome in terms of what was found in this "arca"? A speck of blood found on a panel of a drawer. That's it.
Good heavens, any one of us could have put shopping in a fridge or freezer with a nicked finger.. How would that constitute a smoking gun?
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No, they don't. I'm trying to work out what may or may not be true in this case.
What's gruesome in terms of what was found in this "arca"? A speck of blood found on a panel of a drawer. That's it.
Good heavens, any one of us could have put shopping in a fridge or freezer with a nicked finger.. How would that constitute a smoking gun?
Good heavens, how can you rewrite "leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer" into a "speck of blood" is beyond me......
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Good heavens, how can you rewrite "leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer" into a "speck of blood" is beyond me......
Was the blood identified?
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Was the blood identified?
Why are you changing the goalposts?
If you want to discuss the details of the case, the other thread is down there>>>>>>>
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Why are you changing the goalposts?
If you want to discuss the details of the case, the other thread is down there>>>>>>>
I'm not changing goalposts. I'm asking what this "arca" actually was. Fridge, freezer, combo and what the forensic results actually were.
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Good heavens, how can you rewrite "leaving blood from the minor on several areas inside the deep freezer’s second drawer" into a "speck of blood" is beyond me......
and how do they know it was Joannas blood...the answer is they dont
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Joana Cipriano was an eight-year-old Portuguese girl who disappeared from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, in the Algarve, on 12 September 2004. She was last seen buying provisions in a local grocers shop. After a long and difficult investigation, headed by Chief-Inspector Gonçalo Amaral, Leonor Cipriano and her brother were accused of murdering the eight-year-old child.
The body of Joana Cipriano was never found, but samples of her blood were found in her mother's refrigerator. Her mother justified those samples of blood admitting she had beaten Joana, for some reason, she was hurt and received a blooded nose.
Controversially, the police later extracted a confession from both her mother and her uncle. Her uncle confessed to having beaten her up after which she stood "quiet on the floor". He said he cut his niece's body in small pieces, put her in a fridge box, then put her inside an old car that was taken to Spain to be crushed and burned. When he was asked if he had sexually abused his niece he said in the presence of his lawyer "I did not harm her, I only killed her".
As I understand both confessions were extracted via torture or the threat of torture
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and how do they know it was Joannas blood...the answer is they dont
I'm not aware of any traces of blood anywhere that were proven to be Joana's, let alone any other forensic evidence that could help to establish what happened to her.
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P: It sounds so unbelievable, the possibility that a body was placed on a cliff, or in any other area on the beach, and then removed and transported in a rental car.
GA: The corpse couldn't have remained there all the time. It's impossible.
JP: So where was it taken next?
GA: If we take into account that, if we consider the traces that were found in the car boot…
JP: … which are in fact…
GA: … which are in fact from the little girl. In order to justify that bodily fluid as the lab says, it could only have been preserved and conserved in the cold because otherwise it would have been…
JP: That means that…
GA: … in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it's a hypothesis. Therefore it's a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen… There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren't able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it's also a bit complicated because you have to understand it's a tourist area and often it's not known who the apartment belongs to.
JP: Of course, of course…
GA: Who lives there, for how long they live there, so all of that was being worked upon. To try to understand the support…
JP: If someone discovered a deep freezer in the area and…
GA: If it was actually a deep freezer, it doesn't exist anymore now.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/09/little-girl-died-in-that-apartment.html
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http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
"The cadaver was frozen"
Correio da Manhã - What do you think happened to the body?
Gonçalo Amaral – Everything indicated that the body, after having been at a certain location, was moved into another location by car, twenty something days later. With the residues that were found inside the car, the little girl had to have been transported inside it.
How can you state that?
Due to the type of fluid, we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold and when placed into the car boot, with the heat at that time [of the year], part of the ice melted. On a curb, for example, something fell from the trunk's right side, above the wheel. It may be said that this is speculation, but it's the only way to explain what happened there.
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im curious to know the size of the fridge in 5a ...would be greatful for any help finding a pic of the fridge ... 8)-)))
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Quote
GA: … in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it's a hypothesis. Therefore it's a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen… There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren't able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it's also a bit complicated because you have to understand it's a tourist area and often it's not known who the apartment belongs to.
Unquote
Are there witness statements from 'these people'?
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im curious to know the size of the fridge in 5a ...would be greatful for any help finding a pic of the fridge ... 8)-)))
why?
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did Gerry report in his blog ...that he had taken the fridge from the rented apartment to the dump ... because it wasnt working ...? did the pj ever find the fridge ...?
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I'm not changing goalposts. I'm asking what this "arca" actually was. Fridge, freezer, combo and what the forensic results actually were.
I pointed out to you that you overlooked what was actually said in the report about blood being found in several places in the freezer which you felt was ok to describe as a speck of blood...you ignored this observation/comment of mine and dashed off to talk about whose blood it was...thats all....
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I pointed out to you that you overlooked what was actually said in the report about blood being found in several places in the freezer which you felt was ok to describe as a speck of blood...you ignored this observation/comment of mine and dashed off to talk about whose blood it was...thats all....
and whose blood was it
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Quote
GA: … in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it's a hypothesis. Therefore it's a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen… There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren't able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it's also a bit complicated because you have to understand it's a tourist area and often it's not known who the apartment belongs to.
Unquote
Are there witness statements from 'these people'?
Not immediately findable, if they are in the files, but here is a relevant reference
With respect to possible sightings of the father at two buildings near/next to the Luz cemetery, various apartments were available in those buildings; it could not be ascertained which, if any, apartment may have been of interest.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
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and whose blood was it
How would I know? The court reports say it was the minors.....there must have been reason to say so....
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How would I know? The court reports say it was the minors.....there must have been reason to say so....
It was tested for dna , according to the court papers but no ,match was found. I think if the court judgement has been posted on this thread then its only fair there is some balance. So theres no proof that Joanna blood was found in the building
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It was tested for dna , according to the court papers but no ,match was found
I missed that bit....do you have it handy?
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I pointed out to you that you overlooked what was actually said in the report about blood being found in several places in the freezer which you felt was ok to describe as a speck of blood...you ignored this observation/comment of mine and dashed off to talk about whose blood it was...thats all....
Yes, checking back, it does say traces (plural). But no DNA ID.
My question still remains...
- What would be incompatible with a nicked finger of a household member putting away food in the freezer (if ever it was a freezer as opposed to a vegetable compartment of a fridge)? Anyone could have nicked a finger before or after that.
- What would indicate that a child's body had been stuffed in it?
- The fridge / freezer (whatever it was) was only "apprehended" a month later...
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I missed that bit....do you have it handy?
These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA
taken from one of the links you posted earlier
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These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA
taken from one of the links you posted earlier
The blood in the freezer was human, you are confusing the blood found in the living room which was a mix of human and animal.....
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Yes, checking back, it does say traces (plural). But no DNA ID.
My question still remains...
- What would be incompatible with a nicked finger of a household member putting away food in the freezer (if ever it was a freezer as opposed to a vegetable compartment of a fridge)? Anyone could have nicked a finger before or after that.
- What would indicate that a child's body had been stuffed in it?
- The fridge / freezer (whatever it was) was only "apprehended" a month later...
Fgs carana they both stated she was killed.....you can nit pick the details if you like.......
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The blood in the freezer was human, you are confusing the blood found in the living room which was a mix of human and animal.....
right so none of the blood which was tested belonged to Joanna...but the blood they didnt test did...so there is no record of any dna match to Joanna...but why bother..they had a conviction...if they had done a dna test on the fridge blood they would have had to let them go...after they had confessed
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right so none of the blood which was tested belonged to Joanna...but the blood they didnt test did...so there is no record of any dna match to Joanna...but why bother..they had a conviction...if they had done a dna test on the fridge blood they would have had to let them go...after they had confessed
never mind davel....
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From GA interview: "people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block".
The relevant DCCB letter says that it was only one person who was seen.
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If anyone comes across the freezer blog, reported as deleted from Gerry's site, I would like to read please..............
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[ im curious to know the size of the fridge in 5a ...would be greatful for any help finding a pic of the fridge ]
Pic of 5A fridge freezer from files 4 May 07
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8366/9b6n.jpg)
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[ im curious to know the size of the fridge in 5a ...would be greatful for any help finding a pic of the fridge ]
Pic of 5A fridge freezer from files 4 May 07
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8366/9b6n.jpg)
Seems like a normal luxury fridge, about a foot lower than the door height, say perhaps about 80cm wide? Max? You have a pic there......why ask for another?
Oh well .anyway.....i doubt Madeleines bodywas stuffed in there...police looked inside it that night.....gone >>>>
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That pic was in response to someone else - I wasn't replying to myself @)(++(*
You have two choices if you've got a dead body on your hands and you want to cover it up.
1. You remove the body from the crime scene asap.
2. You wait until it's dark, cold and quiet to do it. So where do you store the body? In the wardrobe or is that fridge a possibility at 7pm not 10pm. The child was seen wearing long sleeves by the Smith family not short sleeves.
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I pointed out to you that you overlooked what was actually said in the report about blood being found in several places in the freezer which you felt was ok to describe as a speck of blood...you ignored this observation/comment of mine and dashed off to talk about whose blood it was...thats all....
I answered on here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114356#msg114356
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That pic was in response to someone else - I wasn't replying to myself @)(++(*
You have two choices if you've got a dead body on your hands and you want to cover it up.
1. You remove the body from the crime scene asap.
2. You wait until it's dark, cold and quiet to do it. So where do you store the body? In the wardrobe or is that fridge a possibility at 7pm not 10pm. The child was seen wearing long sleeves by the Smith family not short sleeves.
Oops, sorry, I didn't realise.
Well, I suppose if that was the case the cadaver dog will have alerted there, unless a cold icy atmosphere destroys the scent? I don't know. I just can't envisage these parents doing such a thing.
PS What has child seen by the Smiths wearing long sleeves got to do with this?
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I answered on here:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114356#msg114356
Oh, that's sent me back six weeks or so.....well, I dont understand why you brought this up again now...you already answered that post of mine here...agreeing with what I said.....and your answer on the other forum is now putting the question back? perhaps for balance you should also copy my post and your response on this thread over there then?
Up to you...but Ive more or less left the Cipriano thread discussions...
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Oh, that's sent me back six weeks or so.....well, I dont understand why you brought this up again now...you already answered that post of mine here...agreeing with what I said.....and your answer on the other forum is now putting the question back? perhaps for balance you should also copy my post and your response on this thread over there then?
Up to you...but Ive more or less left the Cipriano thread discussions...
At that time, I hadn't read the coordinator's statement, which only mentions one trace of blood.
But it's OT in terms of this thread, which is why I responded in the Cipriano sub-forum.
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At that time, I hadn't read the coordinator's statement, which only mentions one trace of blood.
But it's OT in terms of this thread, which is why I responded in the Cipriano sub-forum.
OK then....
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That pic was in response to someone else - I wasn't replying to myself @)(++(*
You have two choices if you've got a dead body on your hands and you want to cover it up.
1. You remove the body from the crime scene asap.
2. You wait until it's dark, cold and quiet to do it. So where do you store the body? In the wardrobe or is that fridge a possibility at 7pm not 10pm. The child was seen wearing long sleeves by the Smith family not short sleeves.
I would think a bag would suffice sadly if that was necessary.
That young girl has just been found 17 years old in a grave yard in someone elses grave. Her killer took her there in a suitcase. So if you can put a 17 year old in a suitcase a tiny 3 year old would fit in a small place if that is what happened.
Not sure about the long sleeve smithman in your post what has it to do with fridge?
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I'm just throwing some things out in the open. Red makes a good point: would an refrigerated body give of cadaver scent? Dressed in long sleeves if the child was in a cold state. I'm inclined to agree with the hypothesis of stored in bag in the wardrobe (that pile of clothes dumped on that shelf still intrigues me) and Eddie's strong bark alert but the scent at the bottom of the garden is interesting. This is possibly far fetched to some but could the child be hidden there at 8.30pm for the scenario of getting out of the apartment and falling from the balcony. That's a very high risk strategy IMO but if found would explain the death. Moved from the back garden at 9ish to bin. Is there any footage of Grime going back the next day in the daylight with the dogs searching the back garden?
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I'm just throwing some things out in the open. Red makes a good point: would an refrigerated body give of cadaver scent? Dressed in long sleeves if the child was in a cold state but that's not important because you would think a blanket would be used. I'm inclined to agree with the hypothesis of bag in the wardrobe (that pile of clothes dumped on that shelf still intrigues me) and Eddie's strong bark alert but the scent at the bottom of the garden is interesting. This is far fetched but could the child be hidden there for the scenario of getting out of the apartment and falling from the balcony. That's a very high risk strategy IMO but if found could explain a death. Is there any footage of Grime going back the next day in the daylight with the dogs searching the back garden?
I don't think that falling-over-balcony theory is that far fetched. However, I haven't found anything to substantiate it. Rebelo seems to have checked that out and the results didn't lead anywhere.
No one has yet explained to me how this child-in-fridge theory was supposed to work in view of the timelines and people (members of T9, OC staff, GNR, PJ, checking wherever a child might have been that night.
Neither have I found anything besides this "reconstruction" that could be construed as any kind of probative evidence that Joana had been stuffed in one.
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If the child was in the fridge it wouldn't for a long time so I think stored in bag in wardrobe where Eddie barked is most probable in this scenario. The child would be hidden at 8.30 in the garden (balcony fall if found) and moved to bin around 30 minutes later once all the tapas friends are safely at the table (you don't want to run into one of them at 8.30 carrying a child). The child would be away from the crime scene by 9-9.10pm. Still a very risky operation without using a bag IMO.
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If the child was in the fridge it wouldn't for a long time so I think stored in bag in wardrobe where Eddie barked is most probable in this scenario. The child would be hidden at 8.30 in the garden (balcony fall if found) and moved to bin around 30 minutes later once all the tapas friends are safely at the table (you don't want to run into one of them at 8.30 carrying a child). The child would be away from the crime scene by 9-9.10pm.
Pathfinder, may I remind you that "the child" was their beloved Madeleine and that they hardly would "store" then "hide" and "move" her body ? Carrying once is already too much.
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Pathfinder, may I remind you that "the child" was their beloved Madeleine and that they hardly would "store" then "hide" and "move" her body ? Carrying once is already too much.
It's about time they confessed if they had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance and tell the whole world what really happened. You have to try and explain the dogs findings because unfortunately for the McCann's these dogs are very good. Tapas 9 take that lie detector test for a will of good faith.
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It's about time they confessed if they had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance and tell the whole world what really happened. Tapas 9 take that lie detector test for a will of good faith. You have to try and explain the dogs findings because unfortunately for the McCann's these dogs are very good.
Kate :
"We're not the ones that's done something wrong here, it's the person who's gone into that apartment & taken a little girl away from her family."
Gerry McCann:
"Find the body and prove we killed her."
Clarence Mitchell on the lie detector:
"Gerry and Kate don't need to do one as they are telling the truth."
Pathfinder. What you must understand is that It's morally & legally wrong for you to even think that the McCanns had anything but complete non involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
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Ask the Dogs Sandra. They could come back to haunt you. They love taking fun out of the dogs no wonder that alleged pack of dogs attacked Kate by the grey stone slab.
"Gerry and Kate don't need to do one as they are telling the truth."
CM humour. They can do one then and put an end to it.
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So if you can put a 17 year old in a suitcase a tiny 3 year old would fit in a small place if that is what happened.
Gareth Williams fitted in a North Face holdall (72 litre ; (H) 38cm, (W) 61cm, (D) 38cm)
(http://cdn.theguardian.tv/brightcove/poster/2012/5/9/120509MI6Bag_6159812.jpg)
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2012/may/09/reporter-locks-holdall-gareth-williams-mi6 (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2012/may/09/reporter-locks-holdall-gareth-williams-mi6)
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It's about time they confessed if they had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance and tell the whole world what really happened. You have to try and explain the dogs findings because unfortunately for the McCann's these dogs are very good. Tapas 9 take that lie detector test for a will of good faith.
- You are assuming that they had something to confess.
- There are umpteen threads on here about whether the dogs were accurate or not. And no corroborating forensic evidence to substantiate it.
- What would be the purpose of a lie detector test? I'm not aware that it would constitute legal evidence in Portugal. Or in the UK.
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It's about time they confessed if they had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance and tell the whole world what really happened. You have to try and explain the dogs findings because unfortunately for the McCann's these dogs are very good. Tapas 9 take that lie detector test for a will of good faith.
Lie detector tests only measure people's capacity to control their emotions.
Confessing ? Only to God..
The dogs, hum... no need to ask them, science and technology are in progress
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Gareth Williams fitted in a North Face holdall (72 litre ; (H) 38cm, (W) 61cm, (D) 38cm)
(http://cdn.theguardian.tv/brightcove/poster/2012/5/9/120509MI6Bag_6159812.jpg)
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2012/may/09/reporter-locks-holdall-gareth-williams-mi6 (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/2012/may/09/reporter-locks-holdall-gareth-williams-mi6)
The connection and insinuation being?
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Kate :
"We're not the ones that's done something wrong here, it's the person who's gone into that apartment & taken a little girl away from her family."
Gerry McCann:
"Find the body and prove we killed her."
Clarence Mitchell on the lie detector:
"Gerry and Kate don't need to do one as they are telling the truth."
Pathfinder. What you must understand is that It's morally & legally wrong for you to even think that the McCanns had anything but complete non involvement in Madeleine's disappearance.
Where was the underlined quoted?
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- You are assuming that they had something to confess.
- There are umpteen threads on here about whether the dogs were accurate or not. And no corroborating forensic evidence to substantiate it.
- What would be the purpose of a lie detector test? I'm not aware that it would constitute legal evidence in Portugal. Or in the UK.
A lie detector test won't happen. Where's Smithman on their website, in their book. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.
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The connection and insinuation being?
The insinuation is yours, Carana, and I prefer not to imagine which one.
If you'd read carefully, you'd reckoned I was just replying to Colombosstogey.
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A lie detector test won't happen. Where's Smithman on their website, in their book. It doesn't take a genius to work it out.
A lie detector wont happen and an appearance on the Jeremy kyle show wont happen either..and it doesn't take a genius to work out why
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Where was the underlined quoted?
Daily Express 13th September 2007.
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A lie detector wont happen and an appearance on the Jeremy kyle show wont happen either..and it doesn't take a genius to work out why
Because they have nice teeth & don't live in a council house?
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Where was the underlined quoted?
An interesting chat about that quote here , Carana
http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/justine-mcguiness-and-angus-mcbride-met.html
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A lie detector wont happen and an appearance on the Jeremy kyle show wont happen either..and it doesn't take a genius to work out why
Catching up and reading parts of threads but by god, you would think that Scotland Yard and the New Portuguese team had not already RULED OUT THE MCCANNS.
Wouldn't you. 8-)(--)
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Daily Express 13th September 2007.
Thanks. Is there any more to that than a Daily Express headline?
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Thanks. Is there any more to that than a Daily Express headline?
In the documents and reports section Ive linked to two archives, original article should be in there....
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/NEWS_REPORT_INDEX.htm
look under September 07
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Catching up and reading parts of threads but by god, you would think that Scotland Yard and the New Portuguese team had not already RULED OUT THE MCCANNS.
Wouldn't you. 8-)(--)
31 AUG 07
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa confirmed today that Gerry and Kate McCann are not under suspicion for their daughter's vanishing on 3 May and described them as "victims".
"The McCanns are not suspects. They are victims and witnesses," he said.
DCI Redwood
They are not persons of interest or suspects they are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all that we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine.
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An interesting chat about that quote here , Carana
http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/justine-mcguiness-and-angus-mcbride-met.html
Indeed. Thanks, Anna.
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31 AUG 07
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa confirmed today that Gerry and Kate McCann are not under suspicion for their daughter's vanishing on 3 May and described them as "victims".
"The McCanns are not suspects. They are victims and witnesses," he said.
DCI Redwood
They are not persons of interest or suspects they are parents who have lost their daughter and we are doing all that we can to bring resolution for them to find out what has happened to Madeleine.
This posts sums up the present situation....many on this forum are in denial
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In the documents and reports section Ive linked to two archives, original article should be in there....
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/NEWS_REPORT_INDEX.htm
look under September 07
Thanks, Red, I hadn't noticed that archive before.
From that article:
A close friend said: "The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: 'Where is the body? Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no idea'."
Further on:
Gerry's brother John McCann said: "There is so much speculation going on as to what the actual information the Portuguese police have.
"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
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Thanks, Red, I hadn't noticed that archive before.
From that article:
A close friend said: "The legitimate question to ask Portuguese police is: 'Where is the body? Where is the evidence that Madeleine is dead? We have got no idea'."
Further on:
Gerry's brother John McCann said: "There is so much speculation going on as to what the actual information the Portuguese police have.
"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
As we all know now they had nothing
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But from an investigational point of view, SY cannot adopt instinctive/religious unshakeable belief yes they must be alive, SY surely needs to approach it objectively?
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But from an investigational point of view, SY cannot adopt instinctive/religious unshakeable belief yes they must be alive, SY surely needs to approach it objectively?
Im sure they are