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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Myster on November 08, 2013, 06:08:54 PM

Title: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 08, 2013, 06:08:54 PM
Slaughter At The Farm: Countdown To Murder will be shown on Channel 5 on November 14th. at 9pm.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2492365/Jeremy-Bambers-father-sixth-sense-shot-just-days-adopted-son-murdered-entire-family.html#ixzz2k4tTpbn1 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2492365/Jeremy-Bambers-father-sixth-sense-shot-just-days-adopted-son-murdered-entire-family.html#ixzz2k4tTpbn1)

An earlier appearance on Bamber: The New Evidence... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo&feature=youtu.be&t=6m50s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo&feature=youtu.be&t=6m50s)

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 08, 2013, 10:27:42 PM
Thank you for the links Myster  8((()*/  Very interesting.  Should get the fails up  8)--))

I recall from my 'Blue' days a certain poster repeatedly stating that Mrs Wilson said she preferred Jeremy to her own son  8-)(--)  No idea where this came from but I've certainly not seen/heard anything to this effect.

It does rather beg the question does it not that if Nevill feared for his life and that of the family at Jeremy's hand why he would not have locked all the weaponry away?

According to Mrs Wilson Nevill was short when she phoned around 9.30pm:

COA DOC '02

23. Barbara Wilson, the farm secretary telephoned the farmhouse at 9.30 p.m. and spoke to Nevill Bamber. He was not cheerful and Mrs Wilson thought she had interrupted an argument. In evidence she described Nevill as abrupt, very impatient and very short. Pamela Boutflour, June Bamber's sister also telephoned the house that evening at about 10 p.m. She spoke first with Sheila Caffell who was quiet and then to her sister. Mrs Boutflour noted nothing unusual in her sister's mood or in their conversation.

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 08, 2013, 11:48:09 PM
Slaughter At The Farm: Countdown To Murder will be shown on Channel 5 on November 14th. at 9pm.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2492365/Jeremy-Bambers-father-sixth-sense-shot-just-days-adopted-son-murdered-entire-family.html#ixzz2k4tTpbn1 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2492365/Jeremy-Bambers-father-sixth-sense-shot-just-days-adopted-son-murdered-entire-family.html#ixzz2k4tTpbn1)

An earlier appearance on Bamber: The New Evidence... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo&feature=youtu.be&t=6m50s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo&feature=youtu.be&t=6m50s)


Thanks for this, Myster. Thank goodness for Barbara. But I just can't get revved up to give a toss about Bamber now, since we solved the case.

I watched the Countdown To Murder when it was Jane Andrews. The Cressmans lived in the next lane to us, and Tom's brother still runs a really nice hotel. The Cressmans, like the Bambers, are a really decent family.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 09, 2013, 12:26:22 AM
Thanks for this, Myster. Thank goodness for Barbara. But I just can't get revved up to give a toss about Bamber now, since we solved the case.

I watched the Countdown To Murder when it was Jane Andrews. The Cressmans lived in the next lane to us, and Tom's brother still runs a really nice hotel. The Cressmans, like the Bambers, are a really decent family.

I've said this before, but it really is time that Mike pisses or gets off the pot. According to him, he has 2 pieces of evidence that will free Bamber. Never mind Cometh the Time.....get your little short arse into gear and produce your goodies. He's fifty f..king three, and he's up for another Christmas of mushy sprouts and a severe bumming in the showers. Get him out, if you can.

So why don't you?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 09, 2013, 12:36:33 AM
I've said this before, but it really is time that Mike pisses or gets off the pot. According to him, he has 2 pieces of evidence that will free Bamber. Never mind Cometh the Time.....get your little short arse into gear and produce your goodies. He's fifty f..king three, and he's up for another Christmas of mushy sprouts and a severe bumming in the showers. Get him out, if you can.

So why don't you?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdB_24CtC0Y‎
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 09, 2013, 09:55:19 AM
I've said this before, but it really is time that Mike pisses or gets off the pot. According to him, he has 2 pieces of evidence that will free Bamber. Never mind Cometh the Time.....get your little short arse into gear and produce your goodies. He's fifty f..king three, and he's up for another Christmas of mushy sprouts and a severe bumming in the showers. Get him out, if you can.

So why don't you?

Hohoho such a way with words Shona.  I would imagine you have reduced a few grown men to tears over the years   8(0(*
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 09, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
Haven't previously heard about JB circling/taunting June whilst riding her bike.  Or leaving a bag of rats in her car.

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2013, 04:18:20 PM
Hohoho such a way with words Shona.  I would imagine you have reduced a few grown men to tears over the years   8(0(*

Yep, all these  8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( ... but she's only been faithful to BT.  8(0(*
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2013, 04:20:54 PM
Haven't previously heard about JB circling/taunting June whilst riding her bike.  Or leaving a bag of rats in her car.
It's only hearsay... but it corrects the even bigger bullsh*t hearsay that he loved his family so much put out by his own official site and blog.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2013, 04:43:34 PM
The catch-up documentary might be shown in the day(s) following transmission... I'm thinking here of abs if she can't receive the broadcast abroad, and if she's lurking around the forum, although Channel 5 could decide to trim it down to just a 20 second trailer unfortunately, like the Dennis Nilsen one.
*****************************************************************************
A similar case to that of the Bambers, involving parricide for inheritance by Roderick Newall makes interesting viewing. The long pre-advert though is a pain in the a*se... http://www.channel5.com/shows/countdown-to-murder/episodes/the-butcher-boy (http://www.channel5.com/shows/countdown-to-murder/episodes/the-butcher-boy)

What is it about some loopy floozies who look through mud-spattered spectacles at convicted murderers ?... last sentence quote - "Despite his notoriety, Newall received hundreds of letters from female admirers after his arrest and conviction"... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410320/Man-murdered-parents-1million-inheritance-set-leave-jail.html#ixzz2k9qY4cMh (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410320/Man-murdered-parents-1million-inheritance-set-leave-jail.html#ixzz2k9qY4cMh)

His former Sandhurst army mates have written about him including one Shonapugs-flavoured post, jolly good show, what, what, what !... http://www.arrse.co.uk/intelligence-cell/205506-roderick-newall.html

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2013, 05:03:14 PM
Thank you for the links Myster  8((()*/  Very interesting.  Should get the fails up  8)--))
I recall from my 'Blue' days a certain poster repeatedly stating that Mrs Wilson said she preferred Jeremy to her own son  8-)(--)  No idea where this came from but I've certainly not seen/heard anything to this effect.

It does rather beg the question does it not that if Nevill feared for his life and that of the family at Jeremy's hand why he would not have locked all the weaponry away?

According to Mrs Wilson Nevill was short when she phoned around 9.30pm:

COA DOC '02

23. Barbara Wilson, the farm secretary telephoned the farmhouse at 9.30 p.m. and spoke to Nevill Bamber. He was not cheerful and Mrs Wilson thought she had interrupted an argument. In evidence she described Nevill as abrupt, very impatient and very short. Pamela Boutflour, June Bamber's sister also telephoned the house that evening at about 10 p.m. She spoke first with Sheila Caffell who was quiet and then to her sister. Mrs Boutflour noted nothing unusual in her sister's mood or in their conversation.

Sounds like the poster was mistaking Mrs.Wilson for Julie's mother, Mary Mugford. Mary appeared in the witness box and said, quote - 'Jeremy disliked his mother intensely and I felt he was more affectionate towards me. He used to call me "Mummy" all the time'.... etc. (Wilkes, pages 220-221)

Nevill bought his son the Anschutz.22 in the Autumn of 1984, although it was never licensed to Jeremy. As with all the firearms and ammunition at WHF, it wasn't secured. The arguments between father and son may only have reached a climax in the few days leading up to the murders, so perhaps Nevill gave his son benefit of the doubt (re. Robert Boutflour's testimony that Jeremy said he could kill anybody, even his parents, [Wilkes, pg. 197]) and trusted him between the previous Autumn and that fateful Wednesday.

If weaponry had been locked up, what was to stop a determined Jeremy finding/copying the key(s), removing the rifle, relocking the cupboard, then secreting it somewhere in the farmyard outbuildings ready for use the night before ?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 09, 2013, 05:18:29 PM
Yep, all these  8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( 8)><( ... but she's only been faithful to BT.  8(0(*

www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Q_sKzgY0Y‎

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
At long last, now I know what you look like... cough, cough !
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on November 09, 2013, 05:25:13 PM
On a farm they may have needed firearms regularly so to lock up the cupboard may have been inconvenient for them.

It's been said that Nevill would never have allowed loaded firearms out in the open where the kids could have got to them. The fact is the only living witness to the suggestion that Bamber went out to shoot rabbits the night of the murders then left the rifle on the settle is Jeremy himself. Likewise the supposed discussion about fostering the children.

I must admit I've lost interest in the Bamber case recently, it's all done and dusted as far as I can tell. And yes, it does beggar belief that Mike Tesko has evidence that will clear Bamber but chooses to do nothing with it, but he is a bit of a Water Mitty to put it mildly so he enjoys the attention.

Did anyone else read the link to the Daily Mail article? There's a comment from someone from Maldon on there protesting Bamber's innocence. Who could it be?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 09, 2013, 05:25:45 PM
At long last, now I know what you look like... cough, cough !

You cheeky b....r!

I think she goes to the same hairdresser's as Colly Cropper!
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: abs on November 09, 2013, 06:08:43 PM
The catch-up documentary might be shown in the day(s) following transmission... I'm thinking here of abs if she can't receive the broadcast abroad, and if she's lurking around the forum, although Channel 5 could decide to trim it down to just a 20 second trailer unfortunately, like the Dennis Nilsen one.
*****************************************************************************
A similar case to that of the Bambers, involving parricide for inheritance by Roderick Newall makes interesting viewing. The long pre-advert though is a pain in the a*se... http://www.channel5.com/shows/countdown-to-murder/episodes/the-butcher-boy (http://www.channel5.com/shows/countdown-to-murder/episodes/the-butcher-boy)

What is it about some loopy floozies who look through mud-spattered spectacles at convicted murderers ?... last sentence quote - "Despite his notoriety, Newall received hundreds of letters from female admirers after his arrest and conviction"... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410320/Man-murdered-parents-1million-inheritance-set-leave-jail.html#ixzz2k9qY4cMh (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-410320/Man-murdered-parents-1million-inheritance-set-leave-jail.html#ixzz2k9qY4cMh)

His former Sandhurst army mates have written about him including one Shonapugs-flavoured post, jolly good show, what, what, what !... http://www.arrse.co.uk/intelligence-cell/205506-roderick-newall.html

Yeayea, lurking all right.  ?>)()< Thank you so much for thinking about me. Hug
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 09, 2013, 06:16:29 PM
Yeayea, lurking all right.  ?>)()< Thank you so much for thinking about me. Hug

Don't mention it hunny... he-he, I knew that would lure you back ! (*crosses fingers hoping that hubby isn't watching*)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 09, 2013, 08:35:51 PM
Sounds like the poster was mistaking Mrs.Wilson for Julie's mother, Mary Mugford. Mary appeared in the witness box and said, quote - 'Jeremy disliked his mother intensely and I felt he was more affectionate towards me. He used to call me "Mummy" all the time'.... etc. (Wilkes, pages 220-221)

Nevill bought his son the Anschutz.22 in the Autumn of 1984, although it was never licensed to Jeremy. As with all the firearms and ammunition at WHF, it wasn't secured. The arguments between father and son may only have reached a climax in the few days leading up to the murders, so perhaps Nevill gave his son benefit of the doubt (re. Robert Boutflour's testimony that Jeremy said he could kill anybody, even his parents, [Wilkes, pg. 197]) and trusted him between the previous Autumn and that fateful Wednesday.

If weaponry had been locked up, what was to stop a determined Jeremy finding/copying the key(s), removing the rifle, relocking the cupboard, then secreting it somewhere in the farmyard outbuildings ready for use the night before ?

No I got the distinct impression the poster was referring to BW.  I know BW has at least one son.  Not sure about MM.  Does JM have any siblings?

Is there any firm evidence NB and JB argued anymore than many young men/sons do with their fathers especially those that work together?

We only have RB's word that JB made the comment re his parents and even if he did say it what was meany by it?  It seems rather strange that if he was planning the murders he would make such a statement to a close relative.

I believe BW worked for NB for 8 years prior to the tragedy.  Throughout this period SC was based in London.  As such BW's understanding of SC her illness and troubles would have been very limited. 

It strikes me that NB was a very easy-going, calm and good tempered type.  The fact BW stated when she phoned @ 9.30pm he was abrupt, impatient, and short sounds out of character.  She also states she felt she had interrupted an argument.  I believe as JB said his parents were trying to enter into discussion with SC re welfare of the twins and/or trying to entice her away from London and back to Essex.  I accept the latter is just my own thoughts.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 10, 2013, 10:25:23 AM
Sunday Times Culture magazine, re: Slaughter At The Farm.

"..........Bamber made one crucial error in his attempt to conceal his crime."


Only one?     >@@(*&)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 10, 2013, 07:13:48 PM
No I got the distinct impression the poster was referring to BW.  I know BW has at least one son.  Not sure about MM.  Does JM have any siblings?

Is there any firm evidence NB and JB argued anymore than many young men/sons do with their fathers especially those that work together?

We only have RB's word that JB made the comment re his parents and even if he did say it what was meany by it?  It seems rather strange that if he was planning the murders he would make such a statement to a close relative.

I believe BW worked for NB for 8 years prior to the tragedy.  Throughout this period SC was based in London.  As such BW's understanding of SC her illness and troubles would have been very limited. 

It strikes me that NB was a very easy-going, calm and good tempered type.  The fact BW stated when she phoned @ 9.30pm he was abrupt, impatient, and short sounds out of character.  She also states she felt she had interrupted an argument.  I believe as JB said his parents were trying to enter into discussion with SC re welfare of the twins and/or trying to entice her away from London and back to Essex.  I accept the latter is just my own thoughts.

Yes, Barbara Wilson did have a son, Phillip or Philip. I know who the poster was, but not where the statement came from, unless it was an early police interview. Barbara comes across as a gentle and genuine soul, a bit timid perhaps which could have been the reason why she got the jitters and disappeared on the first Saturday of the trial, and was initially reluctant to criticise Jeremy in the early police interviews, because if she accused him of the murders the same thing might happen to her. We might learn more next Thursday. No idea about JM's brother/s or sister/s.. better ask Patti the genealogist - there's a patti who's just joined but whether it's the Patti or someone else I don't know.

There are parallels here with Roderick Newall - the physical pushing of his mother when she refused him money; the pre-planning; the arguments between parents and sons on the night of the murders; the scarpering abroad afterwards.
Compare that with the alleged bag of rats in June's car; the murder plan Bamber had been hatching for months; the argument with Nevill and/or June on Tuesday night which Jeremy claimed to be about adoption of the twins, but could just have easily been about his demand for more money; the disappearance abroad with Collins. Was the original intention not to return like Newall, but when the money ran out he had no alternative ?

Which brother did Bamber most resemble... Mark - the quiet, nerdy, asexual and introverted one... or Roderick - the gregarious, not academically gifted, promiscuous extrovert ? And which one of the two was the instigator and main perpetrator - wasn't it the second ?

It was his cocky arrogant side that led Bamber to brag about being capable of killing his parents, and deliberately telling Julie of his plans. It all boils down to who you are prepared to believe. Other than Robert Boutflour, Douglas Moule, a site worker at Osea had strong suspicions of who was responsible for the office break-in. They both had a gut instinct as to Jeremy's questionable character.

You have to go too with what little physical evidence there is, such as - the lack of any vertical blood-staining on the front of Sheila's neck, chest or nightie directly below the wounds, meaning she was never in the Kitchen when the TFU broke in; the lack of ammunition residue on her dress and hands; the absence of any blood spots on the phone handset or work surface when Bamber claimed before Colin, Ann and the police at the cottage, that on the phone he felt that his father had been really hurt... in other words he had already been wounded upstairs and bleeding from the mouth and face.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 11, 2013, 02:44:44 PM
Yes I agree Barbara seems a decent sort even if perhaps a bit of a busy body.  However she has nothing to say of any substance re JB's guilt.  It appears that it's all based on her interpretation eg JB not crying/showing enough emotion after the tragedy.

She claims prior to the tragedy that Nevill looked down mentally and physically.  This could be explained by Sheila's mental illness, chaotic lifestyle, inability to meet the twins' basic needs, reunion with her birth mother; June's frail state of mind and ever increasing dependence on religion; Mrs Speakman's health; loss of Mrs Bamber snr.; taking out substantial loans etc, etc.

Perhaps Nevill was mindful of shooting accidents given that he was involved in one when Leslie Speakman lost his sight in one eye as a result of a shot Nevill fired.  Also apparently Nevill had been threatened as a result of his magistrates work.

There's no evidence that Jeremy was always on the lookout for hand outs any more than most young people are.  Anyone who has children will know this.  One only has to look at the butt of many jokes in Fathers' day cards. Also Anne and Peter Eaton and Jackie Wood and Anthony Pargeter appeared to do very nicely thank you out of good old Uncle Nevill.  Prior to the tragedies Nevill purchased land on behalf of Anne and Peter for repurchase at a later date and Jackie and Anthony were loaned money for the refurbishment of their late grandmother's home.

I don't see any parallels with the Newall case other than parricide.  Dr David Kirschner states that adoption is often key to understanding adoptees who kills:

http://www.adoptionunchartedwaters.com/understanding-adoptees-who-kill.php

There's nothing I can see in Jeremy's character that imo marks him out as someone capable of the acts he has been convicted of.  I see him as a regular mainstream guy with no particular side. 

Robert Boutflours's diaries seem to indicate a hatred based on nothing other than perfectly acceptable lifestyle choices eg he worked at Little Chef, didn't partake in Young Farmers, had a gay friend etc.

I think Nevill phoned Jeremy before any shots were fired.  Don't believe Sheila was ever in kitchen when TFU broke in.  I would not want to rely on lack of residue as unsure as to whether Sheila had washed and/or SOC officers interfered by accidental contamination.



Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 13, 2013, 12:03:01 AM
Sunday Times Culture magazine, re: Slaughter At The Farm.

"..........Bamber made one crucial error in his attempt to conceal his crime."


Only one?     >@@(*&)

Actually, I can't wait for "Slaughter At The Farm" on Thursday night. The final nail in the Bamber-lickers coffin.   8@??)(

I wonder if it will be as "sensational" as "Dead People Are Crap On Strictly"....the book that was due out 6 months ago?

We live in hope!!    @)(++(*
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2013, 01:05:10 PM
I think a certain person would feel more comfortable sitting on one of these whilst viewing as may become over animated:

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2013, 03:26:08 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2505114/Killer-Jeremy-Bamber-wore-lipstick-eye-shadow-public-provoke-father-months-shot-family-dead.html

Hot off the press!
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 13, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Trailer 'Slaughter at Farm' on 'Countdown to Murder'

http://www.channel5.com/shows/countdown-to-murder/episodes/slaughter-at-the-farm
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 14, 2013, 10:49:30 PM
Well, it was what it was. Some mistakes, and I doubt if it will be up for a BAFTA, but Barbara Wilson was excellent, again.

Mushy sprouts. Nom nom nom.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 14, 2013, 10:55:50 PM
Well, it was what it was. Some mistakes, and I doubt if it will be up for a BAFTA, but Barbara Wilson was excellent, again.

Mushy sprouts. Nom nom nom.

The blues are hating it...   8@??)(
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on November 15, 2013, 12:49:30 AM
Yes, as you say, maybe a couple of mistakes but Barbara Wilson was good.

Far from "fitting up" JB the police and media concentrated on the "Hot Story" of "the mad model with the gun" far better to sell papers.

It looks like a good few more years of over-boiled sprouts and unnatural sex for JB and long may it be so.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 15, 2013, 10:53:54 AM
Well well!  Some new revelations and a pile of errors...8 out of 10 for Channel 5.

That's the first time we have heard that Nevill and June really knew who was behind the Osea caravan park break in.  I can understand the shame they must have felt about it all, to realise that the boy they had reared could have turned into such a monster.

I totally agree about Barbara Wilson.  She was excellent and came out with things she has never publicly said before.  The rats in the car was an eye opener...as was the absolute dread Nevill had for his own life.  I wonder why Robert Boutflour wasn't interviewed this time?

Its a pity they got the whole Nevill was first assaulted in the kitchen thing so very wrong.  We know of course from the distribution of the bullet casings that Nevill was initially shot in the bedroom and bled as he made his way downstairs where he was assaulted by Bamber using the rifle stock as a weapon.  He was shot again in the kitchen and died of his wounds.

They also forgot to put the silencer in its box and hide it in the cupboard, naughty Ch5.

I suppose Ch5 have budget constraints like everyone else. Bamber must be incandescent with rage though as this docudrama only dealt with the facts and was so close to the truth for a change.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
Well well!  Some new revelations and a pile of errors...8 out of 10 for Channel 5.

That's the first time we have heard that Nevile and June really knew who was behind the Osea caravan park break in.  I can understand the shame they must have felt about it all, to realise that the boy they had reared could have turned into such a monster.

I totally agree about Barbara Wilson.  She was excellent and came out with things she has never publicly said before.  The rats in the car was an eye opener...as was the absolute dread Nevile had for his own life.  I wonder why Robert Boutflour wasn't interviewed this time?

Its a pity they got the whole Nevile was first assaulted in the kitchen thing so very wrong.  We know of course from the distribution of the bullet casings that Nevile was initially shot in the bedroom and bled as he made his way downstairs where he was assaulted by Bamber using the rifle stock as a weapon.  He was shot again in the kitchen and died of his wounds.

They also forgot to put the silencer in its box and hide it in the cupboard, naughty Ch5.

I suppose Ch5 have budget constraints like everyone else. Bamber must be incandescent with rage though as this docudrama only dealt with the facts and was so close to the truth for a change.

I believe Robert Boutflour passed away quite a while ago.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 12:36:01 PM
Nothing like an unbiased programme.  What a complete load of ballcocks:

All based on perceptions and a lack of understanding of the real issues:

-June's mental illness circa 1959 caused by her decision to adopt Sheila:
 - Maternal depression/neglect and the adverse effects on babies/children in their care and lifelong effects

-Multiple/abrupt changes in primary caregivers during Sheila's early years:
 - Attachment disorder and lifelong effects

-Adoption psychology

-Adoption reunions

Is this the psychologist 'wheeled in' David Holmes aka Mr Rage?   8()(((@# 8()(((@# 8()(((@#

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jealous-rage-of-tv-crime-shrink-1106787

It is clear the psychologist has not researched the case at all.  Instead he has been spoon-fed shite by others and come up with Jeremy feeling a sense of abandonment because he was adopted and sent to boarding school.  Errr excuse me I rather think Sheila underwent the same experiences.  Oh and sibling rivalry.

I shall be making a formal complaint with The British Psychological Society.  Oh and David if you're looking in consider a bleak Christmas and potential striking off  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(

Kerry Danes suffered a similar fate.  You people will do anything to get your ugly mugs on tv and a fee.

 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 15, 2013, 01:25:12 PM
So....Ralph DID know who burgled the caravan park. I wonder if all the recriminations, disappointment and loss of trust in him were the final straws for Bamber?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 01:27:41 PM
I believe Robert Boutflour passed away quite a while ago.

http://www.familynotices24.co.uk/5787229

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
David Boutflour has spoken to the media briefly on the odd occasion but I'm not aware of other family members  >@@(*&) They seem to be happy for others to take up the helm, particularly women eg Julie Mugford and Barbara Wilson  >@@(*&)  Oh yes and it was Julie Mugford who had the grisly task of identifying the victims  >@@(*&) 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 03:02:01 PM
Yet they don't seem to be slim on the ground when there are hand-outs/favours to be had:

Nevill purchasing land on behalf of Anne and Peter Eaton for re-purchase at a later date.  Interest compound or simple  >@@(*&)

Nevill gifting 25% share of his late mother's property to Jackie Wood and Anthony Pargeter which he didn't have to do legally and lending them 25% each of a loan to renovate the property?  Interest compound or simple  >@@(*&)

 8-)(--)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on November 15, 2013, 05:17:59 PM
Yet they don't seem to be slim on the ground when there are hand-outs/favours to be had:

Nevill purchasing land on behalf of Anne and Peter Eaton for re-purchase at a later date.  Interest compound or simple  >@@(*&)

Nevill gifting 25% share of his late mother's property to Jackie Wood and Anthony Pargeter which he didn't have to do legally and lending them 25% each of a loan to renovate the property?  Interest compound or simple  >@@(*&)

 8-)(--)
This is the kind of stuff they come out with on "Blue."   Deals made by Nevile when he was still alive 27 years ago and the terms of those deals are not our concern anymore than if we lend a family member money to buy a car.  Nevile was equally as generous, if not more so, to Jeremy and Sheila.

They are typical of deals between family members and probably even more so years ago in farming communities.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 15, 2013, 05:46:23 PM
This is the kind of stuff they come out with on "Blue."   Deals made by Nevile when he was still alive 27 years ago and the terms of those deals are not our concern anymore than if we lend a family member money to buy a car.  Nevile was equally as generous, if not more so, to Jeremy and Sheila.

They are typical of deals between family members and probably even more so years ago in farming communities.

If this was the land that Ralph bought because it faced the threat of development, any farmer worth his salt would have done the same.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 15, 2013, 06:06:39 PM
David Boutflour has spoken to the media briefly on the odd occasion but I'm not aware of other family members  >@@(*&) They seem to be happy for others to take up the helm, particularly women eg Julie Mugford and Barbara Wilson  >@@(*&)  Oh yes and it was Julie Mugford who had the grisly task of identifying the victims  >@@(*&)
... only because Jeremy Bamber chickened out as he was too busy finding how much he was worth with his solicitors and accountants!  8((()*/
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 06:26:10 PM
... only because Jeremy Bamber chickened out as he was too busy finding how much he was worth with his solicitors and accountants!  8((()*/

Yes that's one plausible reason.  Another is that he would have found it too upsetting in the same way as Colin Caffell also declined for that very reason.  I have not been in the unenviable position of having to identify loved one(s) so I don't know what my reaction would be.  It appears some prefer to say goodbye and others prefer to remember the loved one(s) how they were.  I guess it depends too on the circumstances ie if an elderly person dies in their sleep its probably easier to cope with than, for example, those who lost their lives at WHF in such ghastly circumstances.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 15, 2013, 06:34:43 PM
For a change, I would have liked D.Sgt. Stan Jones, the leading doubter of Jeremy Bamber's innocence, to give his account, other than D.I. Bob Miller, (wearing one of the best 40 spot [Name removed]-bows I've ever seen).

Simon McKay's latest tweet says he's a bit miffed at not being consulted... why should they do that ?.
His seriously flawed "Bamber:The New Evidence" gave Barbara Wilson only a paltry 14 second sound bite, when she deserved far more.
The balance has been redressed and about time too.
Channel 5 documentary Comments page - Hartley v Caroline + Roch + others... keep up the good work, Harters.  8((()*/
And the blues have been spitting feathers all day. (http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/890/9uk.gif)
Had to laugh at Bob Miller's party piece... opens jacket >>>>> points to pocket >>>>> "THAT'S ME, I'M THE BOSS !!!" (http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/890/9uk.gif)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on November 15, 2013, 07:00:11 PM
Yes, the programme was littered with errors, but it was interesting as people have said to have it confirmed that the Bambers knew Jeremy robbed the caravan park. I don't know if all Channel 5 documentaries have the same format (a recap after every ad break, because let's face it we all have the memory span of a goldfish don't we?). And when the narration said "Sheila brushed her teeth" was it really necessary to have a dramatisation of Sheila brushing her teeth? With a caption in the top corner saying "reconstruction"? You know, in case someone thought that this was actual footage of the event?

What I found particularly interesting was the psychologist, along with Barbara Wilson's interview definitely the best thing in a rather shoddy programme if I'm honest. He picked apart every aspect of Jeremy's behaviour before and after the murders and how this fits in with mindset of a psycopath which really does need to be pointed out. One thing I did find a bit odd was the Bob Miller interview and the one with PC Bews in which they both seemed to suggest that the rest of the force were fooled by Bamber but they weren't? Surely it's OK for them to admit they were fooled after all this time? The only officer not to be fooled was Stan Jones. And on a related note didn't DI Miller get a bit of a rebuke from the judge for his less than thorough forensic work on the day?

I also thought they made a mistake in the programme by suggesting that Neville was shot when he got downstairs, yes the casings on the landing and stairs suggest it was he was likely to have been shot upstairs. And if June was shot as she slept why was her body not found on the bed (they revealed later that her body was found on the floor)?

I must admit I find it odd that Julie had to identify the bodies, but to suggest Bamber didn't do it because he was grief stricken is pushing it a bit. It is a fact that he had gone to solicitors and accountants to discuss the inheritance instead. Thank goodness he wasn't too grief stricken to make sure he was getting his money eh?  8(0(*
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 15, 2013, 07:03:29 PM
However, a few mistakes:-

1). The first shooting of Nevill Bamber was shown taking place in the Kitchen, when it should have been the Master Bedroom and on the Landing/Stairs, where 13 bullet casings were found. (as John stated above)

21 casings upstairs:         11  in Master Bedroom
                                          8  in Twins Bedroom
                                          2  on landing / stairs

3(4) casings downstairs:   3 in Kitchen (1 lost?)

(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4127/evks.jpg)


2). Gun and ammunition was shown being placed on the Kitchen table, whereas Bamber said he'd left the rifle propped up against the settle, and the ammo. placed on the settle, in the rear Hall.

3). Inverted image of Bourtree Cottage.

4). Bamber described as gaining access through Kitchen window, when it was actually through the Washroom/Toilet window.

5). Bible placed on wrong side of Sheila Caffell's body.

6). others ?

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 15, 2013, 07:45:33 PM
Bamber placing the silencer in what looked like June's crockery cupboard.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 15, 2013, 07:49:50 PM
For a change, I would have liked D.Sgt. Stan Jones, the leading doubter of Jeremy Bamber's innocence, to give his account, other than D.I. Bob Miller, (wearing one of the best 40 spot [Name removed]-bows I've ever seen).

Simon McKay's latest tweet says he's a bit miffed at not being consulted... why should they do that ?.
His seriously flawed "Bamber:The New Evidence" gave Barbara Wilson only a paltry 14 second sound bite, when she deserved far more.
The balance has been redressed and about time too.
Channel 5 documentary Comments page - Hartley v Caroline + Roch + others... keep up the good work, Harters.  8((()*/
And the blues have been spitting feathers all day. (http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/890/9uk.gif)
Had to laugh at Bob Miller's party piece... opens jacket >>>>> points to pocket >>>>> "THAT'S ME, I'M THE BOSS !!!" (http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/890/9uk.gif)


He didn't even pretend to grieve, except when the cameras were on him (which he tried to record.) What a cock.

"I'm the Boss."  Ho ho!! Boss of his bunk bed!!    @)(++(*

And I'm enjoying the Channel 5 comments, too. I wonder what the "A" in Lookout's name stands for? I bet it's Agnes.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: puglove on November 15, 2013, 07:56:32 PM
He didn't even pretend to grieve, except when the cameras were on him (which he tried to record.) What a cock.

"I'm the Boss."  Ho ho!! Boss of his bunk bed!!    @)(++(*

And I'm enjoying the Channel 5 comments, too. I wonder what the "A" in Lookout's name stands for? I bet it's Agnes.

Ooops! It's an "E". Ethel.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 15, 2013, 08:04:44 PM
I believe Robert Boutflour passed away quite a while ago.

Just goes to show how long it has been.  I meant David of course...sorry!
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 08:32:02 PM
I managed to make contact with the psychologist Dr David Holmes earlier today for a chat:

http://www.rihsc.mmu.ac.uk/staff/profile.php?surname=Holmes&name=David

He advised me that the programme was made several years ago or rather his input was supplied several years ago.  I said I disagreed with his findings and asked why he had not considered other relevant aspects (eg those in above post).  He said his research was all up-to-date at the time he provided his input and his area of specialism is biological psychology.  I said I didn't think he was qualified to comment on the case and that I would report him to The British Psychological Society. At this point he flew into Mr Rage  8()(((@# 8()(((@# 8()(((@# mode and said I had no right to go behind his back.  I said I have every right and I will be making a formal complaint.  I said goodbye and put the phone down.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 08:58:37 PM
This is the kind of stuff they come out with on "Blue."   Deals made by Nevile when he was still alive 27 years ago and the terms of those deals are not our concern anymore than if we lend a family member money to buy a car.  Nevile was equally as generous, if not more so, to Jeremy and Sheila.

They are typical of deals between family members and probably even more so years ago in farming communities.

Whoa what have I said to deserve such harsh criticism Outlook?  I may not share your views on JB but please don't tar me with the same brush as many of those numpties on 'Blue'. 

Yes I agree I think all of the land purchase deal and the gifting and loaning to Jackie and Anthony was par for the course.  What I object to is the idea that Jeremy should be treated differently. For example the witness statements of the relatives and Robert Boutflour's diaries paint a picture of Jeremy in some way being undeserving of any financial support provided by his parents eg the trip to the Antipodes.  This appears to extend to Sheila too where Anne Eaton makes reference to the fact that Nevill and June financed things eg Sheila's modelling course, wedding etc.  In any event this was and is typical of middle class families.  In fact nowadays we even have 'the bank of mum and dad'.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on November 15, 2013, 10:16:16 PM
Yes, the programme was littered with errors, but it was interesting as people have said to have it confirmed that the Bambers knew Jeremy robbed the caravan park. I don't know if all Channel 5 documentaries have the same format (a recap after every ad break, because let's face it we all have the memory span of a goldfish don't we?). And when the narration said "Sheila brushed her teeth" was it really necessary to have a dramatisation of Sheila brushing her teeth? With a caption in the top corner saying "reconstruction"? You know, in case someone thought that this was actual footage of the event?

What I found particularly interesting was the psychologist, along with Barbara Wilson's interview definitely the best thing in a rather shoddy programme if I'm honest. He picked apart every aspect of Jeremy's behaviour before and after the murders and how this fits in with mindset of a psycopath which really does need to be pointed out. One thing I did find a bit odd was the Bob Miller interview and the one with PC Bews in which they both seemed to suggest that the rest of the force were fooled by Bamber but they weren't? Surely it's OK for them to admit they were fooled after all this time? The only officer not to be fooled was Stan Jones. And on a related note didn't DI Miller get a bit of a rebuke from the judge for his less than thorough forensic work on the day?

I also thought they made a mistake in the programme by suggesting that Neville was shot when he got downstairs, yes the casings on the landing and stairs suggest it was he was likely to have been shot upstairs. And if June was shot as she slept why was her body not found on the bed (they revealed later that her body was found on the floor)?

I must admit I find it odd that Julie had to identify the bodies, but to suggest Bamber didn't do it because he was grief stricken is pushing it a bit. It is a fact that he had gone to solicitors and accountants to discuss the inheritance instead. Thank goodness he wasn't too grief stricken to make sure he was getting his money eh?  8(0(*
I quite enjoyed the Bamber programme as it was fairly biased against him and showed him with mad eyes.  Mind you I would not have liked to meet Sheila on a dark night either.  The makeup for both was totally insane.

The problem to me was that it was pro-police.  "Bamber was devilish cunning but clever plod got the measure of him."  Well "clever plod" did not have the measure of him.  He was running rings around them in spite of being the dumbest and most obvious killer in a generation.  The police were far too sympathetic to him and helped him dispose of evidence, fell for the "sexy mad junkie model with the machine gun" story that the media was pushing and if you read the Anne Eaton Statements the police were far too free with Nevile's Whisky.  It was really down to Anne Eaton and Robert Boutflour and eventually Julie Mugford grassing him up supported by no more than two suspicious coppers that brought him to justice.
 
He very nearly got away with it and if Anne Eaton had been more intimidated by the police he would have done.

A lot of silly errors but I assume that is par for the course for today's documentaries.  Everyone has the attention span of dead cat these days and assumes that if it isn't on Youtube then it did not happen.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on November 15, 2013, 10:26:26 PM
Whoa what have I said to deserve such harsh criticism Outlook?  I may not share your views on JB but please don't tar me with the same brush as many of those numpties on 'Blue'. 

Yes I agree I think all of the land purchase deal and the gifting and loaning to Jackie and Anthony was par for the course.  What I object to is the idea that Jeremy should be treated differently. For example the witness statements of the relatives and Robert Boutflour's diaries paint a picture of Jeremy in some way being undeserving of any financial support provided by his parents eg the trip to the Antipodes.  This appears to extend to Sheila too where Anne Eaton makes reference to the fact that Nevill and June financed things eg Sheila's modelling course, wedding etc.  In any event this was and is typical of middle class families.  In fact nowadays we even have 'the bank of mum and dad'.
I am not being harsh, merely pointing out that this is a common theme on "Blue".  That dear little Jeremy was "discriminated against" at the expense of Sheila and other family.

We have no business to judge whether Nevile was fair or less fair to JB than to anyone else, especially Sheila.  Daughters are frequently treated more generously than sons especially by their father.  There is nothing sinister in that, it is just the way things often work.  Fathers usually spend more time with their sons and teach them different things.  With mothers it is often the other way around.  We do not have the right to judge or draw conclusions on this.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on November 15, 2013, 10:27:08 PM
I managed to make contact with the psychologist Dr David Holmes earlier today for a chat:

http://www.rihsc.mmu.ac.uk/staff/profile.php?surname=Holmes&name=David

He advised me that the programme was made several years ago or rather his input was supplied several years ago.  I said I disagreed with his findings and asked why he had not considered other relevant aspects (eg those in above post).  He said his research was all up-to-date at the time he provided his input and his area of specialism is biological psychology.  I said I didn't think he was qualified to comment on the case and that I would report him to The British Psychological Society. At this point he flew into Mr Rage  8()(((@# 8()(((@# 8()(((@# mode and said I had no right to go behind his back.  I said I have every right and I will be making a formal complaint.  I said goodbye and put the phone down.

I fail to see what he did wrong in the programme-he was obviously asked for his views on the case as an expert in criminal psychology. His points were all pertinent and made a lot of sense. They were one sided but then again so was the programme. No room for any of the B.S that Mark Williams-Thomas's programme in March last year was full of. Clearly everyone who goes to boarding school doesn't end up murdering their family so he wasn't making that point, though a lot of people sent to boarding school as children do end up resentful even years later. Why does Dr Holmes need to be reported to the British Psychological Society? Saying something that YOU don't agree with doesn't mean he needs to be reprimanded. I'm just curious.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 10:30:20 PM
Ooops! It's an "E". Ethel.

 8(0(*

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on November 15, 2013, 10:57:39 PM
I fail to see what he did wrong in the programme-he was obviously asked for his views on the case as an expert in criminal psychology. His points were all pertinent and made a lot of sense. They were one sided but then again so was the programme. No room for any of the B.S that Mark Williams-Thomas's programme in March last year was full of. Clearly everyone who goes to boarding school doesn't end up murdering their family so he wasn't making that point, though a lot of people sent to boarding school as children do end up resentful even years later. Why does Dr Holmes need to be reported to the British Psychological Society? Saying something that YOU don't agree with doesn't mean he needs to be reprimanded. I'm just curious.
I didn't see anything particularly wrong with his comments but there really is a lot of this Psychobollocks around these days.  Abused children do not all grow up to be abusers, adoptees do not all grow up to be mass murderers, Immigrants are not all benefit scroungers, and not all gypsies are thieves.  Any sensible Psychologist these days will readily admit it is not a science in the normal sense of the word and any conclusions are usually generalist.  At least he was not as bad as some of the other programmes we have been subject to as well as the sneering remarks of the JB Campaign Website which to this day still indulges in a widespread character assassination of Robert Boutflour whilst refusing to admit any defect in the reputation of their blood-drenched hero.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 11:12:40 PM
I fail to see what he did wrong in the programme-he was obviously asked for his views on the case as an expert in criminal psychology. His points were all pertinent and made a lot of sense. They were one sided but then again so was the programme. No room for any of the B.S that Mark Williams-Thomas's programme in March last year was full of. Clearly everyone who goes to boarding school doesn't end up murdering their family so he wasn't making that point, though a lot of people sent to boarding school as children do end up resentful even years later. Why does Dr Holmes need to be reported to the British Psychological Society? Saying something that YOU don't agree with doesn't mean he needs to be reprimanded. I'm just curious.

Arrgh lost my reply...for a repeat...

Has he ever met with JB to undertake an assessment in a formal setting to offer professional opinion?  Did he have permission from JB/relevant authorities?  (Not sure he needs permission actually as JB has been found guilty) 

His areas of specialism do not appear to pertain to the murders at WHF.

Imo the Mark Williams-Thomas programme made a fatal mistake in not including some professional opinion re the family dynamics particularly June's mental illness circa 1959 and the issues raised in my post above which seem to get overlooked and yet I am convinced herein lies the answer.

I guess it depends on who you choose to believe the likes of Kerry Danes and David Holmes neither of which I believe have met with JB, or the likes of Vincent Egan who have the relevant authority to meet and assess JB in a formal setting:

http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/

It will not be down to me whether or not David Holmes is reprimanded his professional body will see to that.

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 15, 2013, 11:25:36 PM
I am not being harsh, merely pointing out that this is a common theme on "Blue".  That dear little Jeremy was "discriminated against" at the expense of Sheila and other family.

We have no business to judge whether Nevile was fair or less fair to JB than to anyone else, especially Sheila.  Daughters are frequently treated more generously than sons especially by their father.  There is nothing sinister in that, it is just the way things often work.  Fathers usually spend more time with their sons and teach them different things.  With mothers it is often the other way around.  We do not have the right to judge or draw conclusions on this.

I think Nevill was generous to a fault to all concerned whether it be Sheila, Jeremy or his nieces and nephews.  I think it is unfair of others to describe Jeremy as "greedy" when there's no evidence of this or that he received any more or less than others. I think this is an important point after all the motivations for the murders was supposedly greed. 

Yes it is often common for mothers to spend more time with their daughters and teach them different things but according to Anne Eaton's wit stat June asked Anne to find Sheila chores and teach her to cook.  I find this rather strange given that Sheila spent most of her time away at boarding school.  Jeremy claims that June taught him to cook.  Perhaps mother and daughter just didn't get on  >@@(*&)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 16, 2013, 12:13:54 AM
I have only viewed the programme once but will do so again tomorrow but wasn't it claimed that Nevill owned something like 300 acres when the truth is that he was merely a tenant farmer of that particular land and only rented White House Farmhouse itself?  I don't think Channel 5 explained that terribly well.

I still think it odd that David Boutflour never put in his tuppence worth on that particular docudrama. He is usually quite outspoken when it comes to cousin Jeremy.

Bob Miller was so full of himself when we all know that it was Sgt Stan Jones who blew the lid on Bamber.  Miller was taken in just like the rest of them.


Did you know that the Bow Tie Society was founded by Bob Miller and Howard Bills to "celebrate" the distinctive item of neckwear?

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66591000/jpg/_66591622_dscf6278.jpg)

Bob Miller says bow ties were quintessentially 'British'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21923222
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Joanne on November 16, 2013, 03:54:16 AM
I don't see what the program did wrong either, it stuck to it's name 'Countdown to murder' which implied to me that they were only going to be looking at the events from one side-the murderers and how it was done and it did that, it was trying to be impartial or fair just look at 'the murders'. I quite enjoyed it, it did what it said on the tin.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Andrea on November 16, 2013, 04:47:49 AM
Ive only just watched it, the make up wearing and riding circles around june and taunting her isnt new, that was known about years ago. The rest of it we already knew anyway.

I thought the documentary was ok, only 1 hour long so didnt expect anything fantastic.
But it stated the basics.

"I never had any doubt, and Jeremy knows that ".
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 16, 2013, 08:25:16 AM
I have only viewed the programme once but will do so again tomorrow but wasn't it claimed that Nevile owned something like 300 acres when the truth is that he was merely a tenant farmer of that particular land and only rented White House Farmhouse itself?  I don't think Channel 5 explained that terribly well.

I still think it odd that David Boutflour never put in his tuppence worth on that particular docudrama. He is usually quite outspoken when it comes to cousin Jeremy.

Bob Miller was so full of himself when we all know that it was Sgt Stan Jones who blew the lid on Bamber.  Miller was taken in just like the rest of them.


Did you know that the Bow Tie Society was founded by Bob Miller and Howard Bills to "celebrate" the distinctive item of neckwear?

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/66591000/jpg/_66591622_dscf6278.jpg)

Bob Miller says bow ties were quintessentially 'British'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21923222 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21923222)
David is probably sick to the back teeth of it, John. He's been wheeled out on numerous occasions before, so maybe he thought Barbara Wilson's excellent contribution would suffice... and he does tend to get a bit nervy and emotional.

Normally you see [Name removed]s on old archaeologists, University bods, Prof. Ian Fells impersonators, etc. so I thought it was bit unusual for a member of the Old Bill to wear a bow-tie. I half-expected the glorious one Bob wore to come to life with flashing lights, then whizz round windmill-fashion, especially when he became more animated putting the boot in to dear old Jez.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 16, 2013, 08:32:10 AM
Ive only just watched it, the make up wearing and riding circles around june and taunting her isnt new, that was known about years ago. The rest of it we already knew anyway.

I thought the documentary was ok, only 1 hour long so didnt expect anything fantastic.
But it stated the basics.

"I never had any doubt, and Jeremy knows that ".

Mistakes, continued...

666). Eyebrows of actor who played Jeremy Bamber didn't meet in the middle.

You missed that one, Andrea !

But at last we've discovered Mason Doyle is named after his former well-loved dog, a combo of Perry Mason and Arthur Conan Doyle perhaps. As a recently signed-up member, if MD is lurking around the forum he might give us his impression of the prog.!
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on November 16, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
Arrgh lost my reply...for a repeat...

Has he ever met with JB to undertake an assessment in a formal setting to offer professional opinion?  Did he have permission from JB/relevant authorities?  (Not sure he needs permission actually as JB has been found guilty) 

His areas of specialism do not appear to pertain to the murders at WHF.

Imo the Mark Williams-Thomas programme made a fatal mistake in not including some professional opinion re the family dynamics particularly June's mental illness circa 1959 and the issues raised in my post above which seem to get overlooked and yet I am convinced herein lies the answer.

I guess it depends on who you choose to believe the likes of Kerry Danes and David Holmes neither of which I believe have met with JB, or the likes of Vincent Egan who have the relevant authority to meet and assess JB in a formal setting:

http://jeremybamber.org/psychological-reports/

It will not be down to me whether or not David Holmes is reprimanded his professional body will see to that.

Ideally he would have had an interview with Bamber, but look at it this way. Would you object to a psychologist assessing Ted Bundy or Ed Gein without having actually met them but by analysing information already in the public domain? Obviously Bamber is still alive but the information is still there. The law says that he is a murderer even if you don't agree that he is. There is independent evidence to his behaviour before and after the murderers which could be said to be evidence of psycopathic behaviour.

I agree that perhaps June is the key to everything. One of her children was a paranoid schizophrenic, the other a psychopathic killer. We can't say genetics was involved because they were adopted. Was their upbringing vital in the way they both turned out? And was June responsible? Colin Caffel seemed to think so in his book. He had very few nice things to say about June (though got on well with Nevill apparently).
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 16, 2013, 04:00:07 PM
Ideally he would have had an interview with Bamber, but look at it this way. Would you object to a psychologist assessing Ted Bundy or Ed Gein without having actually met them but by analysing information already in the public domain? Obviously Bamber is still alive but the information is still there. The law says that he is a murderer even if you don't agree that he is. There is independent evidence to his behaviour before and after the murderers which could be said to be evidence of psycopathic behaviour.

I agree that perhaps June is the key to everything. One of her children was a paranoid schizophrenic, the other a psychopathic killer. We can't say genetics was involved because they were adopted. Was their upbringing vital in the way they both turned out? And was June responsible? Colin Caffel seemed to think so in his book. He had very few nice things to say about June (though got on well with Nevill apparently).

As far as I can see those that have been convicted of horrific crimes either in the UK or elsewhere in the world have been found to have some mental illness/personality disorder as with those you have identified above.  Not so with Bamber.  Despite ongoing assessments no professional who has actually met with him has ever identified any personality disorder and/or mental illness.  I can't see anything in his background either eg anti-social behaviour, violent conduct, etc. Sure there's lots of rumours and myths but imo nothing of substance.

I believe June's mental illness in 1959 is key but I don't believe she is responsible as such for the outcomes.  She seems a decent woman and typical of her age and background but I don't think she was a suitable adoptive mother and should never have been approved by the authorities as a suitable adopter.  This may seem harsh but Sheila should have been removed from the Bambers care permanently in 1959 when June was first admitted to St Andrews for psychiatric treatment caused by her decision to adopt Sheila (Dr Ferguson's wit stat).  The fact that the authorities were not alerted and the fact that the Bambers were allowed to go on and adopt another child beggars belief.

I blame the authorities for approving the Bambers as suitable adopters and Dr Ferguson for not raising the alarm.  Perhaps I should add that Nevill seems perfect adoptive father material but he was part of a couple and for that reason sadly as a couple they should not have been approved as suitable adopters.

As you said Sheila was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic; Jeremy has been found guilty in a court of law of slaying his entire immediate family to death and June had two bouts of serious mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric care.  Something not right and I think that something is the key and has been overlooked. Its also interesting to note that Jeremy's full birth siblings are well adjusted individuals. >@@(*&) >@@(*&) >@@(*&) 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 17, 2013, 04:29:21 PM
The programme was bloody awful....quite cringeworthy actually, as some kind of documentary, so stilted, so full of amateurish deductions passed off as fact.....still,must say, the old copper in the bow tie convinced me with the two reasons he gave


Putting the silencer back in the  cupboard  which contained the sisters blood so she couldnt have murdered the family
Telling his girlfriend what he did

The motives given were weak IMO..ie money......hatred and frustrationI can buy....... bizarre case

As for the old biddy secretary..... Sorry.....she came across all wrong as well




Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: John on November 17, 2013, 08:16:20 PM

As for the old biddy secretary..... Sorry.....she came across all wrong as well

I take it you are referring to Mrs Barbara Wilson.  Please explain what you mean by all wrong?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: John on November 17, 2013, 08:28:53 PM
The evidence is very precise in the Bamber case.  It came down to the shooter being Jeremy or someone engaged by Jeremy or Sheila.  Sheila is excluded by virtue of the evidence which leaves only the first two possibilities.  Whether Jeremy did it or had someone else do it is irrelrvant.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 17, 2013, 08:31:31 PM
I take it you are referring to Mrs Barbara Wilson.  Please explain what you mean by all wrong?

I found her insincere, pontificating, unbelievable and embelleshing.....could just be her manner....i guess....
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 17, 2013, 08:44:23 PM
OLD BIDDY SECRETARY !!!!   8()(((@# ... she was the mainstay of the programme, along with Bob Miller (Chief Hugo Boss after-dinner speaker)
Barbara Wilson gets my vote as chief witness for the prosecution any day !  8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/

You'll be old one day !!!
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 17, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
OLD BIDDY SECRETARY !!!!   8()(((@# ... she was the mainstay of the programme, along with Bob Miller (Chief Hugo Boss after-dinner speaker)
Barbara Wilson gets my vote as chief witness for the prosecution any day !  8((()*/ 8((()*/ 8((()*/

You'll be old one day !!!

Lol keep your hair on.......i dont really care, must put tin hat on in future....when posting my views....

Bob miller was believable, she wasnt ok? JMO!

And I repeat it was a shit  programme...so shit that it probably was counterproductive if it was trying  to convince people of his guilt.....so he exhibited a couple wierdo activities.....and annoyed his adoptive family, stole some money, etc etc....it wss a pile of pooh vis a vis portraying the case....

Ps im already old so ......my comments werent ageist just biddyish
 
 @)(++(*


Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 17, 2013, 09:14:47 PM
Why do you keep editing, re-editing, re-re-editing, etc., etc. your posts, Red ?

So first you say "the old copper in the bow tie convinced me with the two reasons he gave"

And then it was "so shit that it probably was counterproductive if it was trying  to convince people of his guilt"
Make your mind up. 8((()*/
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on November 17, 2013, 09:16:36 PM
You don't think it's believable that money was his motivation?

You don't think it important or significant that he robbed the caravan park? It showed a) he had complete contempt for his parents b) he was motivated by money c) he had form for committing a crime and trying to make it look as if someone else had done it.

Of course he was motivated by greed. If he wasn't he'd have confessed by now. If he one day manages to get his conviction overturned he will become very rich. That's why he keeps trying. If he can't then even if he ever did get released he would be penniless. I think he'd prefer to be in jail than free and broke.

The bit where he put the silencer back in the cupboard was misleading. Surely it would have been discovered like that, as everyone watching the programme would have thought. But he actually put it back in the box first. I think people find it hard to believe he put it back and risking the police finding it, but firstly if he had disposed of it anywhere else this it would have eventually been found and would have proved Sheila was not the murderer. Secondly by suggesting to police what had happened he would have been sure there was no need for a fingertip search of the house as the circumstances presented made it an open and shut case for the police.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 17, 2013, 10:41:39 PM
Why do you keep editing, re-editing, re-re-editing, etc., etc. your posts, Red ?

So first you say "the old copper in the bow tie convinced me with the two reasons he gave"

And then it was "so shit that it probably was counterproductive if it was trying  to convince people of his guilt"
Make your mind up. 8((()*/



I make no apology, I often edit for afterthoughts, rarely to delete thoughts

There is no dichotomy here. In general I thought the whole show was tattish....doesnt mean everything in it was...ok?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 17, 2013, 10:46:26 PM
You don't think it's believable that money was his motivation?

You don't think it important or significant that he robbed the caravan park? It showed a) he had complete contempt for his parents b) he was motivated by money c) he had form for committing a crime and trying to make it look as if someone else had done it.



no I dont think its imprtant that he stole a grand off the caravn park, big deal, thousands of people have done this off others and their own families......


To gun down in cold blood your  whole family is not a money motivated crime......JMO.....and that is one reason I did not  like this c5 programme which pushed that as the only motive..it just didnt flow or make sense to me..if that docu made me thnk anything, it was he wanted his freedom from the family, not their money......even though he may have got some if he got away with it......JMO
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 17, 2013, 10:54:19 PM
I suppose this wasn't a money motivated crime either ! 8-)(--)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21966005 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21966005)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 17, 2013, 11:09:52 PM
I suppose this wasn't a money motivated crime either ! 8-)(--)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21966005 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21966005)

Im not saying they dont exist...I just personally didnt see it as such.....the man if he did what he did must have been thick to think he could get away with it.....what moron juggles a few hundred grand profit with a life in prison, dont make sense to me, and he disnt come across as a thick person......not just for money anyway....maybe hes thick then


Maybe he was on drugs at the time...tell me....as you and loads of other posters here have researched this case deeply...Im just a bystander offering off cut snippet opinions....
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2013, 10:28:55 AM
How come you're a Newbie Red Blossom with 4659 posts and membership since Apr '13?  I'm a Newbie  too but only 164 posts and membership since Mar '13. 

I thought the programme was counter-productive as it was so awful.  Hated the cheap melo-drama of it all which I thought was an insult to the victims who died in the most horrific circumstances.  Was it really necessary to show a cute little sign identifying the twins' bedroom as "Boys Room"?   

I asked a work colleague to watch who knew next to nothing about the case apart from me wittering on about how I believe Bamber is innocent.  She obviously had this in the back of her mind but said had she not and just watched the programme she would have thought he was guilty.

I think all those that appeared before the cameras truly believe Bamber is guilty based on their interpretation and perceptions. In this regard they all came over well.  I don't share their views at all but there we have it.  I guess that's what makes it fascinating.

As far as I can see there's absolutely no evidence that Bamber is a) any greedier than Joe Average or that b) he hated his parents.  Not condoning the caravan park break-in but I don't think the fact that he stole a few hundred quid from the family firm is evidence of either.  It's something he paid a very high price for as it portrays him in a bad light especially with the jury but apart from this it seems to me he had an unblemished record.  There are plenty in high office that have done far worse!

Loved the way Bob Miller presents.  Plus of course the bow ties (thanks for info John v.interesting)
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 18, 2013, 11:04:04 AM
You obviously haven't studied all the evidence Holly and are letting semantics influence your decision making.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2013, 11:50:21 AM
You obviously haven't studied all the evidence Holly and are letting semantics influence your decision making.

I like to think that I have studied all the 'evidence' objectively.

Like Sheila and Jeremy I was brought up via a 'closed' adoption.  I also studied psychology at degree level in the 80's.  I guess this experience and knowledge cause me to look at the case from a different perspective.  Which if I didn't have might well cause me to think differently - I doubt I would be as convinced as I am that Bamber's case is the worst MoJ in British criminal history. 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary
Post by: Redblossom on November 18, 2013, 06:41:41 PM
How come you're a Newbie Red Blossom with 4659 posts and membership since Apr '13?  I'm a Newbie  too but only 164 posts and membership since Mar '13. 


I thnk that is a default description, see, Ive changed it now, you can call yourself what you like or make any other personal statement through modify profile....


 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on November 18, 2013, 09:12:43 PM
When you consider who is guilty of a murder there are three things to consider. Means, motive and opportunity. Who had all of these things regarding the White House Farm murders? Sheila? If you take the view that she was having a psychotic episode then that takes the motive part out of it. Opportunity, well she was in the house. Means? She simply couldn't have fired the rifle so accurately and failed to hit the target only a few times, she couldn't have reloaded the rifle at least twice. She couldn't have battered Nevill senseless. She went on a killing spree including a life or death struggle with Nevill and showed little or no signs of this at all on her skin, hair, clothing etc. If this was to have worked she would need a steady supply of ammo. As far as I understand it she would have gone on the rampage in a flimsy nightie with no pockets. Finally she somehow managed to shoot herself through the neck twice, despite the fact that there is every indication that the first shot would probably have rendered her unconscious, and possibly even paralysed. Dr Vanezis's comment that the first shot wouldn't have been immediately fatal has been taken on the blue forum to mean she could have walked around and even run upstairs. This simply could not have happened. Despite what it said in the TV programme it's reasonably clear that Nevill was first shot upstairs. The fact he ended up downstairs was probably because he was trying to get to the phone, which was disabled either because the phone had been moved from his room without him knowing or  by taking the kitchen phone off the hook. Someone battered him senseless because he was trying to get to the phone. What would it have mattered to Sheila if he had made a call for help? When she was planning to kill herself anyway which she would have easily accomplished by the time the police would have arrived? So someone was willing to go to great lengths to stop Nevill getting to the phone to say what was really happening. And who would have had the motivation to do that?

Bamber on the other hand had motive (money), means (knew how to get to the farm quickly on a bike and how to get into the building without having to break in) and opportunity (at last everyone in his way of his inheritance just happened to be gathered together in the house at the same time). It seems quite obvious really when you think about it, doesn't it?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 18, 2013, 10:36:36 PM
When you consider who is guilty of a murder there are three things to consider. Means, motive and opportunity. Who had all of these things regarding the White House Farm murders? Sheila? If you take the view that she was having a psychotic episode then that takes the motive part out of it. Opportunity, well she was in the house. Means? She simply couldn't have fired the rifle so accurately and failed to hit the target only a few times, she couldn't have reloaded the rifle at least twice. She couldn't have battered Nevill senseless. She went on a killing spree including a life or death struggle with Nevill and showed little or no signs of this at all on her skin, hair, clothing etc. If this was to have worked she would need a steady supply of ammo. As far as I understand it she would have gone on the rampage in a flimsy nightie with no pockets. Finally she somehow managed to shoot herself through the neck twice, despite the fact that there is every indication that the first shot would probably have rendered her unconscious, and possibly even paralysed. Dr Vanezis's comment that the first shot wouldn't have been immediately fatal has been taken on the blue forum to mean she could have walked around and even run upstairs. This simply could not have happened. Despite what it said in the TV programme it's reasonably clear that Nevill was first shot upstairs. The fact he ended up downstairs was probably because he was trying to get to the phone, which was disabled either because the phone had been moved from his room without him knowing or  by taking the kitchen phone off the hook. Someone battered him senseless because he was trying to get to the phone. What would it have mattered to Sheila if he had made a call for help? When she was planning to kill herself anyway which she would have easily accomplished by the time the police would have arrived? So someone was willing to go to great lengths to stop Nevill getting to the phone to say what was really happening. And who would have had the motivation to do that?

Bamber on the other hand had motive (money), means (knew how to get to the farm quickly on a bike and how to get into the building without having to break in) and opportunity (at last everyone in his way of his inheritance just happened to be gathered together in the house at the same time). It seems quite obvious really when you think about it, doesn't it?

The problem I have Goatboy is that if it was so obvious how come hard-nosed experienced Essex police/ hierarchy and other professionals were fooled by a 24 year old public school boy of average intelligence for weeks until he was arrested and charged?  Bamber's life experiences amounted to travelling/working his way around the Antipodes; working at Little Chef, Sloppy Joes and his parents' farm. 

Essex police/hierarchy are used to dealing with the sophisticated criminal underworld of Essex, Kent and East London.  The hardest of the hard.  Millwall  8(0(* and West Ham supporters.  I cant buy into them being bought over by a 24 year old floppy haired, public school boy who liked to don new romantic gear and make-up on nights out.

Taff Jones a highly experienced officer maintained, up until his death in May '86, Bamber was innocent and imo he was spot on.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: sika on November 18, 2013, 11:17:28 PM
Holly Goodhead, your failure to attempt to contradict any of Goatboys well made arguments, speaks volumes to me.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 19, 2013, 09:59:09 AM
Holly Goodhead, your failure to attempt to contradict any of Goatboys well made arguments, speaks volumes to me.

I'm a lazy b....r Sika  8(0(*  I thought I would slide the above in and job done but I can see I need to up my game on Red.  Watch this space... ?>)()<
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on November 19, 2013, 11:46:41 AM
The police are not brilliant.  Most of the time they are dealing with morons not "Supervillians" out of James Bond.

Remember the Michael Sam's case.  The Country in uproar, police forces of was it six Counties involved, including the SAS and he beat them all and got away with the ransom on one foggy night.  The media thought he was some criminal genius and he turns out to be a self-employed, one-legged, dyslexic, train-spotter eventually shopped by his own wife five minutes into Crimewatch.

Criminals are invariably stupid people or they would not do what they do.  Anyone out of the ordinary tends to run rings around the police.

"Taff" Jones was far from being the brilliant officer that "Blue" portray him as.  He was reasonable compared to Tesco and Gladys which is a pretty low pass mark.

Bamber is guilty, there is a host of evidence against him and the only way he is getting out is in a coffin and the quicker that happens the better for everyone.  Maybe they can bury him with Jimmy Savile.  They would get on well together.

If you want to talk about Bamber try to be open-minded not empty-minded like Tesco Towers or everyone just gets bored.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 19, 2013, 11:55:46 AM
To begin with Holly, I would like to know who you would suggest did it if not Jerry?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 19, 2013, 01:44:57 PM
To begin with Holly, I would like to know who you would suggest did it if not Jerry?

CoA Doc

6. Unusually in a case of this kind, it was accepted at trial that there were only two possible explanations for the dreadful events of that night. The first, as alleged by the prosecution was that the appellant had killed all five members of his family, shooting them with a .22 rifle with the probable motive of inheriting the whole of the family estate. The second, the defence case, was that Sheila Caffell, who had a history of mental illness, had murdered her parents and her two sons with the rifle, and had then turned the gun upon herself in an act of suicide. The view realistically accepted by all at trial was that the facts that were common ground enabled any other possibility to be ruled out.

I agree with the defence as stated above.

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: John on November 19, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
CoA Doc

6. Unusually in a case of this kind, it was accepted at trial that there were only two possible explanations for the dreadful events of that night. The first, as alleged by the prosecution was that the appellant had killed all five members of his family, shooting them with a .22 rifle with the probable motive of inheriting the whole of the family estate. The second, the defence case, was that Sheila Caffell, who had a history of mental illness, had murdered her parents and her two sons with the rifle, and had then turned the gun upon herself in an act of suicide. The view realistically accepted by all at trial was that the facts that were common ground enabled any other possibility to be ruled out.

I agree with the defence as stated above.

So tell me?  How did a petite Sheila beat up her father and then manage to shoot herself twice in the next without leaving a single trace?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 19, 2013, 09:55:12 PM
So tell me?  How did a petite Sheila beat up her father and then manage to shoot herself twice in the next without leaving a single trace?

Gun shot wounds to Nevill Bamber

The pathologist's report states that bullet wounds 5 and 6  whilst not immediately life threatening could well have been had other injuries not supervened.  These wounds apparently caused substantial loss of blood internally and externally and extreme pain. Bullet wound 7 totally impaired Nevill's left arm.  Bullet wound 8 caused superficial grazing to the shoulder.  I understand wounds 5,6 and 7 were received in the bedroom and wound 8 on or around the stairs.

Therefore by the time Nevill received the bullet wounds 1 to 4 in the kitchen he was in no state to defend himself against anyone. 

The location of the bullets is somewhat confusing in that 3 were found in the kitchen; 1 on or around the stairs and 4 in the bedroom.  The pathologist's report states that it is not possible to state with any degree of accuracy to describe the life functions that each wound (1 - 4 head) individually interfered with the essential life functions. 

Did Nevill receive one of the head wounds in the Bedroom?  Either way wounds 5, 6 and 7 appear to have rendered him defenceless.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: sika on November 19, 2013, 10:49:00 PM
In all these years, Bamber and his disciples have failed spectacularly, despite their exhaustive efforts, to produce any credible evidence to support his pleas of innocence. 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on November 20, 2013, 08:38:23 PM
Gun shot wounds to Nevill Bamber

The pathologist's report states that bullet wounds 5 and 6  whilst not immediately life threatening could well have been had other injuries not supervened.  These wounds apparently caused substantial loss of blood internally and externally and extreme pain. Bullet wound 7 totally impaired Nevill's left arm.  Bullet wound 8 caused superficial grazing to the shoulder.  I understand wounds 5,6 and 7 were received in the bedroom and wound 8 on or around the stairs.

Therefore by the time Nevill received the bullet wounds 1 to 4 in the kitchen he was in no state to defend himself against anyone. 

The location of the bullets is somewhat confusing in that 3 were found in the kitchen; 1 on or around the stairs and 4 in the bedroom.  The pathologist's report states that it is not possible to state with any degree of accuracy to describe the life functions that each wound (1 - 4 head) individually interfered with the essential life functions. 

Did Nevill receive one of the head wounds in the Bedroom?  Either way wounds 5, 6 and 7 appear to have rendered him defenceless.

According to Dr. Vanezis the final head wounds (nos. 1 - 4) were received within a short space of time, i.e. 4 shots in total, in 2 groups - 2 to the top of the head and 2 to the right hand side. Most likely this was in the Kitchen while Nevill Bamber's head was below the shooter and resting in the coal scuttle. If he was alive and his heart was beating during this final assault it would explain the large amount of blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 20, 2013, 10:41:40 PM
According to Dr. Vanezis the final head wounds (nos. 1 - 4) were received within a short space of time, i.e. 4 shots in total, in 2 groups - 2 to the top of the head and 2 to the right hand side. Most likely this was in the Kitchen while Nevill Bamber's head was below the shooter and resting in the coal scuttle. If he was alive and his heart was beating during this final assault it would explain the large amount of blood running down the side of the scuttle and pooling on the floor.

Yes that sounds very logical but I am confused about the location of the bullets pertaining to Nevill ie 4 in the bedroom, 1 on or around the stairs and 3 in the kitchen.  One theory is that a police officer picked up a bullet on his boot (don't think the only WPC went inside) from the kitchen and transferred it to the bedroom.  I guess this is a possibility?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on November 20, 2013, 11:07:30 PM
In all these years, Bamber and his disciples have failed spectacularly, despite their exhaustive efforts, to produce any credible evidence to support his pleas of innocence.

Yes agreed.

I thought fresh appeals/submissions were winging it to ccrc on the back of the last failed submission?  I am led to believe one of the books may pave the wave but as Shona said may serve no better purpose than support a wonky table leg  @)(++(*

Who do you count as disciples?

Professionals working on a paid basis

Professionals working on a pro bono basis

Those with a bit of a voice eg Andrew Hunter, Eric Allison

Volunteers eg campaign team

Posters on the likes of Red and Blue

Are there any others groups that offer support that I have missed?

I really don't think any poster on a forum is going to make one iota either way.   
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: sika on November 20, 2013, 11:21:46 PM
Volunteers, eg. Campaign team.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: goatboy on December 01, 2013, 06:48:34 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/killer-jeremy-bamber-bombshell-bid-2870475

Well, looks like McChancer is still on board and Bamber is still flogging the dead horse. Even if there was any blood on Sheila's feet (and the photo that I have seen does not even hint at the volume of blood there would have to have been) there is still a wealth of reasons why she couldn't possibly have committed the murders. Plus the marks on Nevill's back were brought up at the trial and no one could establish what caused them so why has anything changed since then? I thought they were trying to say they were done by the rifle barrell minus the silencer in that appalling ITV show last year. Didn't that form the basis of the last CCRC application which failed abysmally like they all have and will continue to?
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Outlook on December 01, 2013, 10:24:00 PM
I do not think it is Sheila's foot anyway.  The carpet in the background is the wrong color and she seems to have an extra toe unless she was a martyr to her bunions.  She was supposed to be a model and my feet are better than hers and I am twice the age she was.

Two tiny marks claimed to be blood spots after all the Psychobollocks about "ritual washing" that was a mainstay of the defence and the appeals and now it is "Oh sorry, she didn't wash after all, her feet were drenched in blood."  "Oh hang on she did wash her hands but not her feet."  "It is well known in murder-suicide cases that murderers always wash their hands but not their feet before killing themselves."

It is also well-known that women hardly ever kill themselves by gunshot, let alone shoot themselves twice in the neck and then go walkies through locked doors, cleverly avoiding broken glass and spilt sugar to put the silencer tidily away before getting back upstairs to expire, not next to her children but next to the mother she allegedly hated.

Good Plot Mike.  This one is going nowhere.  Another 27 years coming up for the only Child-Killer to have a more stupid fan club than Richard III.

Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Myster on December 02, 2013, 06:39:16 AM
What first struck me when I saw the "new" photo was the dark shadow underneath the ball of the foot, which looked more like a reflection from a metallic/mirrored surface, such as a stainless-steel mortuary table or gurney, rather than from a carpet or blanket. If the foot had been lying on a matt fabric, the shadow cast by a ceiling light or camera flashgun would have been completely dark or black, rather than the different shades that it appears to be.
The light-greenish hue in the rest of the picture is more likely be reflection of a similarly coloured ceiling of a mortuary room.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img31/4919/19wo.png)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img17/1733/pufy.jpg)

The photo obviously wasn't taken in the master bedroom, because the carpet was a cream/beige colour, unless it's being claimed that the body was on top of a green sheet/blanket on the floor, but the reflection theory suggested above would rule this out.

I doubt that it's faked or of anyone else’s foot if his lawyers obtained it from original trial or police files.

But part of their latest submission is about this photo (and/or others) not being shown to the jury, when Sheila's feet were described to them as spotless...  a pointless semantic argument really, because it depends on how one defines “spotless” and to what degree.

Six toes ?... bunions ?... easy enough for his team to answer that by asking Mr. Caffell.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Joanne on December 02, 2013, 08:40:02 AM
I can't find any other pictures of Sheila's feet to compare this one against, they could be anyone's feet as far as I know. The toe nails seem to be long (but it might be I like short toe nails) and wouldn't she have done something about that bunion/corn, it must have hurt and the nail polish had seen better days, I think it being summer and sandal season, Sheila would have repainted them and looked her best being a model.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 17, 2013, 09:33:37 PM
I can't find any other pictures of Sheila's feet to compare this one against, they could be anyone's feet as far as I know. The toe nails seem to be long (but it might be I like short toe nails) and wouldn't she have done something about that bunion/corn, it must have hurt and the nail polish had seen better days, I think it being summer and sandal season, Sheila would have repainted them and looked her best being a model.

Hi Joanne

Nice to see a familiar face from Blue.

I'm pretty sure that the photographic expert involved with the case, Peter Sutherst, identified what appeared to be a chipped piece of varnished toenail in the kitchen which he believed belonged to Sheila.  I think he identified this when looking at photos of the scratches on the aga surround.  I have been trying to find confirmation without success so far but will continue to look.  I have spent a lot of time on Blue so of course may just be a figment of my imagination  @)(++(*  I don't think so though  ?{)(**

Have heard from my sexy spies on Blue aka The Knitting Circle Ladies (that's knit one, pearl one, drop one) that the ......... book is going to be dynamite  8-)(--)  Proof will be in the pudding I guess  ?>)()<  Talking of which may I ask will you be cooking or buying?  I'm not a big fan myself and as we're out for Crimbo day I don't think I'll bother.  I would sooner have a Spotted Dick  8(0(* 



Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 19, 2013, 01:44:08 PM
Shooting yourself not once but twice in the neck without getting blood on your fingers or on the rifle trigger is an impossibility.  Try it and see!
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on December 19, 2013, 02:07:09 PM
Shooting yourself not once but twice in the neck without getting blood on your fingers or on the rifle trigger is an impossibility.  Try it and see!

Awww you don't mean that, do you?  8)><(

If it was so obvious why did EP and others initially write it off as 4 murders, 1 suicide? 

I don't go along with all these theories re police wrongdoing at the soc but I do think much of the soc 'evidence' is unreliable as initially all concerned were satisfied with 4 murders, 1 suicide.  EP are on record as saying that they were not as careful as they would normally have been hence Douglas Hurd, the then Home Secretary, tightened up police procedures to ensure what happened at WHF could not happen again.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Jodie on March 23, 2014, 11:47:20 PM
Barbara Wilson brings up some very interesting points about Jeremy's personality. I've never read anything about JB wearing make up before! What was the reasoning behind that? To wind up his parents?

Also the rats in the car? Why?

The documentary's take on the sequence of events is interesting also, although I don't really see where they're getting the evidence for Nevill having 'heard a noise' and coming downstairs as a result. From reading comments on here I'd had the impression Nevill had been shot in the master bedroom first before making his way to the kitchen.
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: scipio_usmc on March 24, 2014, 12:55:36 AM
Barbara Wilson brings up some very interesting points about Jeremy's personality. I've never read anything about JB wearing make up before! What was the reasoning behind that? To wind up his parents?

Also the rats in the car? Why?

The documentary's take on the sequence of events is interesting also, although I don't really see where they're getting the evidence for Nevill having 'heard a noise' and coming downstairs as a result. From reading comments on here I'd had the impression Nevill had been shot in the master bedroom first before making his way to the kitchen.

Yes the shooting started upstairs. Nevill's blood was in the bedroom as were casings from the shots that caused the blood. He was finished off in the kitchen, that is not where the shooting started. So you are quite right the claims are not supported by the evidence.

To be honest documentaries and the like are often wrong in many respects.  Only people who investigated the matter prior though can recognize such shortfalls as you did, kudos to you.   

 
Title: Re: New Program featuring an interview with Barbara Wilson, former WHF secretary.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 24, 2014, 08:17:42 PM
Barbara Wilson brings up some very interesting points about Jeremy's personality. I've never read anything about JB wearing make up before! What was the reasoning behind that? To wind up his parents?

Also the rats in the car? Why?

The documentary's take on the sequence of events is interesting also, although I don't really see where they're getting the evidence for Nevill having 'heard a noise' and coming downstairs as a result. From reading comments on here I'd had the impression Nevill had been shot in the master bedroom first before making his way to the kitchen.

Hi Jodie.  I have a feeling you're going to make me feel a babe or incredibly ancient!  A pop culture existed in the 80's referred to as New Romanticism.  The associated fashion involved guys wearing flamboyant clothing and face make-up. Check out bands/artists like Visage, Japan, Gary Numan, Duran Duran, Culture Club, Adam Ant, Gary Numan

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Romanticism

It was a great era  8(0(*

Rats?  I watched the prog but can't recall if they were dead or alive or in Babara's car or June's?  Perhaps they were The Boomtown Rats  8)-)))