UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: Carana on November 15, 2013, 12:12:21 PM
-
What evidence was there that Leanor and / or João had:
- killed her
- * ETA: dismembered her.
- hidden this from other household members
- disposed of her body
-
Leonor seemingly pleaded an accidental death in a court hearing on 24 Sept 2004, but was charged with:
No dia 24 de Setembro de 2004, no inquérito 330/04.2JAPTM da comarca de Portimão, foi determinada a prisão preventiva de Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano, indiciada por crimes de ofensa á integridade física qualificada agravada pelo resultado – artigos 143o, 145o, no 1, alínea a) e 146o do Código Penal - e de ocultação de cadáver – artigo 254o, no1 do Código Penal;
Literally, the crimes of "qualified offence to the physical integrity [of the person]" and of the concealment of a corpse.
However... she had been arrested on 21 Sept, what happened between 21 Sept and 24 Sept?
-
The night of 12 September 2004 was a festival night in the Aldeia da Figueira. The traditional São Miguel party was underway as shown in these amateur videos given to RTP, which show no signs of Joana. But in one scene you can see António Leandro, the girl's stepfather.
The Portimão GNR continued with searches over the following days around the Aldeia da Figueira. Posters about the disappearance were put up. But there were no traces of Joana.
The mother began giving interviews to the media.
Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother: "Everyone in the café says, 'This is a badly told story. A girl disappearing, suddenly... it was someone from outside who headed for Lisbon and took her in a car.'"
Four days later, the case of the missing 8 year old girl is transferred to the PJ in Portimão. Another four days later, it is transferred to the PJ Directory in Faro. The inspectors had no idea they now had in their hands one of the most complex cases ever confronted.
Guilhermino da Encarnação, Director, PJ Faro: "In this investigation, we covered about 50,000 kilometres. 2100 official processes were created. We assigned approximately 40 inspectors and requested approximately 40 exams from the Scientific Police Laboratory and the Legal Medical Institute."
Leonor Cipriano continued to give interviews.
Leonor Cipriano: "I'm very sad. I think my daughter is really missing her mother. I just ask that anyone who knows about my daughter, that you don't hurt her. And that you can bring her to me."
Interviewer: "Where do you think your daughter could be right now?"
Leonor Cipriano: "There are only guesses. If she is alive, or not, if she's hurt. I don't know, there's no explanation for my daughter… I don't know, I don't know."
Without any clues, the PJ inspectors did find discrepancies. The statements of Joana's mother, the uncle and the other family members do not coincide.
Gonçalo Amaral, Coordinating Inspector PJ (Jan 2007): "In the first statements given to the GNR, the first agency to arrive, it was a badly told story. There were various contradictions amongst certain people, witnesses, who were part of the family group where Joana lived. Based on these contradictions, there arose at a certain time the need for a new interrogation of these individuals, with all these witnesses, at the same time, at the police headquarters, such that they couldn't confer between themselves, and with the principal objective to understand whether the girl had, or had not, returned home. From there, it was proved that the girl had returned home. That is, it was a lie, there was a simulation of a disappearance. From there, it was necessary to determine what had happened."
Leonor is taken in by the PJ on the 21 September, eleven days after her daughter disappeared. The girl's uncle, João Cipriano, remained free for one more day but was also arrested under suspicion of homicide.
In the next few days, João took the PJ inspectors to dozens of different locations to point out Joana's body. But the body was not found in any of those places.
Gonçalo Amaral: "At that time, it became, as if it were a fact, to the police that she was playing with us … She was sending a message, a message to perhaps say that the body was cut up or the body no longer existed. But, at the same time, all the diligences constituted evidence. This permitted us, as would come to happen in the trial, to speak about them, because they were diligences in which we participated and not witness statements of the arguidos. We aren't talking about declarations by arguidos, we are talking about giving witness to the diligences that we did and why we did these diligences and went to these places. On the other hand, it would not have happened, for him to indicate where to find the body or the rest of the body or pieces of the body and we then didn't go. We always had to go. And that's what happened."
The PJ's theory was that the body was fed to the pigs, a theory that was not proven in court. Shocked by this macabre story, hundreds of locals invaded the village searching for answers. The same answers for which the PJ were searching. Why was Joana killed? And where is her body?
Guilhermino da Encarnação: "In principal, this is a disappearance. And this crime is always, excuse me, this crime doesn't have a juridic framework but could have behind it a series of crimes, a kidnapping, an abduction, human trafficking, criminal associations, so that any of these crimes could be behind a disappearance. And the complexity begins right there."
Leonor and her brother confessed the crime to the PJ. João Cipriano even participated in a video reconstitution where he explained with the kitchen stool, how the girl was killed in a beating and where she hit her head against the wall. The images filmed by the PJ were shown in court against the protest of the defense attorneys.
Sara Rosado, João Cipriano's lawyer: "I imagine that all the pressure surrounding this process, generated that, those declarations, as well as others in opposite and various directions, with other details, with other facts. As for the rest, the version that you find constituted in the video doesn't even adhere to the accusation. That is, the actual accusation didn't even follow this theory if you examine certain details. And, in fact, only the pressure that … one of these was the enormous pressure on everyone, including the arguidos who were arrested and so…"
RTP requested authorization from the Portimão Court to emit in this report a short excerpt of the video but the judge in charge denied the request invoking the "image rights" of those who appear in the video.
João Cipriano also directed a photographic reconstitution where, with the help of a mannequin, he explained how he cut Joana's body into three parts.
According to the accusations from the Public Ministry, the three body pieces were placed in black sacks in the small refrigerator during the first few hours. In the various exams done by technicians from the Scientific Police Lab at Joana's house, human blood was found in one of the drawers inside the refrigerator. But DNA tests did not prove that the blood was Joana's.
Gonçalo Amaral: "It is just one of the versions that was given, and we continue to find viable and credible because blood was found in a chink on one of the refrigerator drawers. A drop of blood in the drawer. Someone opens [the refrigerator] and lets some blood run. The blood ran into the drawer and was cleaned, so it only remained in the chinks, in the areas that are difficult to clean. The explanation was necessary given the circumstances in which the homicide occurred, as this was not a prepared or planned homicide, it was a homicide "in loco." It happened, in the way everyone knows, and they had to hide the body. It's viable and an alternative that they may have used and tried, during the first phase while thinking about what to do with the body, to hide the body in the refrigerator."
During the trial, it was also proven that the body pieces would only have fit in the refrigerator if that drawer in which they found human blood had been removed from the refrigerator.
Sara Rosado: "The doctor who attended the diligences and testified in court affirmed that, very tightly, [the body] would fit. But only by removing the drawer. There was blood found on the back of the alleged drawer, having removed the drawer, but the doctor said the arguidos were surprised with this. It was an idea that had never occurred to them. So I don't think anything like this happened."
Many more vestiges of blood were found in Joana's house. Using ultraviolet light, they found blood on the walls by the door: traces of facial and hand impressions from a child of the family, but which could not be proved to be Joana's. Also by the light switch, near the front door, there was found a bit of blood from Ruben, Joana's younger brother who also lived in the house.
João Grade, Leonor Cipriano's second lawyer (former lawyer): "There was not blood in so many different areas... there were various exams done... just vestiges of human blood, which is normal. A housewife only has to cut herself peeling potatoes while watching a soap opera, only has to have a cut, to have blood, it just has to fall on the ground, it has to be cleaned as anyone of us would clean, and then with rigorous exams you could conclude that there were vestiges of blood. It doesn't say anything. In any of our houses, there could be blood like this."
On the floor of the house and on a mop handle, there were found a mixture of human and animal blood. These exams were also inconclusive.
Allegedly, the exams did not produce results because Leonor washed the house with gasoline because the house was infected with ticks. A doubtful motive for PJ who found the house filthy with dirty dishes in the sink. Except for some walls which were cleaned. As soon as the first suspicions arose, the house should have been isolated.
Gonçalo Amaral: "You can tell that the house had been cleaned, that area where the blood was found had been cleaned. It had been cleaned with petroleum purchased by Leonor on the day she left the Portimão police station. There was an attempt, that you might say worked well, to inhibit any laboratory results. As many vestiges as possible were obtained, given the circumstances, and the conclusion is that it was human blood. According to the court, and I agree, something serious happened in that house, on that day. And the conclusion was that it was a homicide."
Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.
Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."
In February 2005, photographs were published of Leonor with significant bruising (Marinho Pinto Expresso Newspaper Article). The trial will begin soon of four inspectors charged with torture, and Gonçalo Amaral of the crime of false witness and failure to denounce [inappropriate police behaviour].
Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
Leonor and João opted to remain silent throughout the entire trial. In November 2005 they were charged with qualified homicide and hiding a cadaver. Leonor was condemned to 20 years and 4 months in prison, and João to 19 years and 2 months. The three jury members and four judges felt that the brother and sister did not intend to kill the child but gave, as proven, that the body was dismembered though they were not convinced it was kept in the refrigerator. Nor was it proven that the child was killed because she caught the mother and her brother having s.e.x. The defense attorneys and the Public Ministry presented an appeal, reducing the penalty to 16 years and 8 month.
With a lot of doubts still to be clarified, Leonor's attorney presented another appeal to the European Court of Human Rights.
João Grade: "It's more than frustrating that we do not know what happened. We have this other child who disappeared 10 years ago, when eight years old, and now has returned at eighteen years old. We don't know whether Joana is going to appear twenty years from now, or four years from now, alive or dead, I don't know."
RTP wanted to talk to Leonor and João, currently serving their sentences in the Odimera and Carregeira prisons. Leonor sent a signed letter, where she agreed to give an interview. Two days after making a request to the Prison Director, that service sent us a newly signed letter when Leonor rescinded her agreement because of "lack of understanding".
João Cipriano agreed to give his first interview, a written interview wherein he proclaimed his innocence. "I did nothing to my niece, Joana Guerreiro. I am innocent. I was threatened with knives to make that video that was shown in court. But it is all lies. The PJ came almost every day to the Olhão prison where I was held to ask me where Joana was. And I, afraid of beatings, kept saying she was here or there, but it was a lie. My sister told me that Joana was fine. She told me that she had sold Joana to a foreign couple."
It remains to be known, what was Joana's destiny.
RTP 2007
File : 197 MB, duration 0:18:28, AVI, 1 audio stream
Video : 180 MB, 1368 Kbps, 25 fps, resolution 700*534 (4:3)
Audio : 16.90 MB, 128 Kbps, 48000 Hz, stereo, MP3
Source: RTP Media
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html
-
Since we have no access to the trial transcripts we have to be guided by the Supreme Court and its appeal decision.
part 1
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html
Part 2
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html
part 3
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html
part 4
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html
Clearly there was an abundance of evidence, much of it circumstantial, in the case which led to the convictions of Lenor and her brother João Cipriano. To suggest otherwise would be insult to logic.
Such evidence included:
The refusal of the pair to speak during the trial.
The many statements by the pair which were full of inconsistencies.
The confessions and attempts by one to blame the other.
The delay in contacting police combined with the lame excuses.
Human blood staining on door frames and walls including that of a child's hand.
Recent attempts seen to have removed this blood using petroleum spirit.
Blood traces in the family freezer box.
The child's red shoes which she was wearing that day found in the family home.
The shopping which the child purchased found in the family home.
The tools suddenly missing from the family home without proper reason.
The dozen or so false locations given by João Cipriano as to where Joana's body lay.
The evidence of the many neighbours as to events.
The propensity to violence of one João Cipriano.
and so on and on...
Evidence which could in any way point to their innocence is very noticeably absent. It is little wonder therefore that the jury chose to return a guilty verdict.
-
... deleted post removed ...
Absolute proof that Joao was violent......did four years for attempted murder, are you for REAL?
Now you can work through each point one by one and debunk it if youre that incensed by it all.....
-
Since we have no access to the trial transcripts we have to be guided by the Supreme Court and its appeal decision.
part 1
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html
Part 2
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html
part 3
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html
part 4
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html
Clearly there was an abundance of evidence, much of it circumstantial, in the case which led to the convictions of Lenor and her brother João Cipriano. To suggest otherwise would be insult to logic.
Such evidence included:
The refusal of the pair to speak during the trial.
The many statements by the pair which were full of inconsistencies.
The confessions and attempts by one to blame the other.
The delay in contacting police combined with the lame excuses.
Human blood staining on door frames and walls including that of a child's hand.
Recent attempts seen to have removed this blood using petroleum spirit.
Blood traces in the family freezer box.
The child's red shoes which she was wearing that day found in the family home.
The shopping which the child purchased found in the family home.
The tools suddenly missing from the family home without proper reason.
The dozen or so false locations given by João Cipriano as to where Joana's body lay.
The evidence of the many neighbours as to events.
The propensity to violence of one João Cipriano.
and so on and on...
Evidence which could in any way point to their innocence is very noticeably absent. It is little wonder therefore that the jury chose to return a guilty verdict.
No real evidence at all...could you tell us where the source of this evidence is...as the last evidence post you made included things that were simply untrue
-
Absolute proof that Joao was violent......did four years for attempted murder, are you for REAL?
Now you can work through each point one by one and debunk it if youre that incensed by it all.....
I'd agree that his apparent past history might not make the top of the preferred list of potential sons-in-law, but what hard evidence is there that he was guilty of what is alleged to have happened to Joana?
-
Absolute proof that Joao was violent......did four years for attempted murder, are you for REAL?
Now you can work through each point one by one and debunk it if youre that incensed by it all.....
By the same token IIRC LC had no criminal record for anything. Is that proof that she is innocent?
-
Since we have no access to the trial transcripts we have to be guided by the Supreme Court and its appeal decision.
part 1
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case.html
Part 2
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_13.html
part 3
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_5147.html
part 4
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/supreme-court-of-justice-joana-case_15.html
Clearly there was an abundance of evidence, much of it circumstantial, in the case which led to the convictions of Lenor and her brother João Cipriano. To suggest otherwise would be insult to logic.
Such evidence included:
The refusal of the pair to speak during the trial.
The many statements by the pair which were full of inconsistencies.
The confessions and attempts by one to blame the other.
The delay in contacting police combined with the lame excuses.
Human blood staining on door frames and walls including that of a child's hand.
Recent attempts seen to have removed this blood using petroleum spirit.
Blood traces in the family freezer box.
The child's red shoes which she was wearing that day found in the family home.
The shopping which the child purchased found in the family home.
The tools suddenly missing from the family home without proper reason.
The dozen or so false locations given by João Cipriano as to where Joana's body lay.
The evidence of the many neighbours as to events.
The propensity to violence of one João Cipriano.
and so on and on...
Evidence which could in any way point to their innocence is very noticeably absent. It is little wonder therefore that the jury chose to return a guilty verdict.
Hmmm. There's a section in the original that doesn't seem to have been translated.
And the points you raise need to be gone through one by one.
-
I'd agree that his apparent past history might not make the top of the preferred list of potential sons-in-law, but what hard evidence is there that he was guilty of what is alleged to have happened to Joana?
Its not apparent, its real......I was responding to Eleanor who said there is NO proof for ANY of that..which was an uninformed and extreme position........well, thats the proof that he had violent tendencies and that was not the only incident..as for hard evidence...ask the judges...and the prosecutors and the PJ.....
By the same token IIRC LC had no criminal record for anything. Is that proof that she is innocent?
Same response to you..I never CLAIMED his past violence was proof of violence in this case, so dont put words into my mouth.......as for someone not having a criminal record ergo they are likely to not be guilty of any crime, thats nonsense, happens all the time..but I think you stuck your foot in it there suggesting its possible without a record to have committed a crime...oops
-
No real evidence at all...could you tell us where the source of this evidence is...as the last evidence post you made included things that were simply untrue
I agree. And how much of that 'evidence' was possibly coerced - or came straight from the PJ.
How could anyone claim the following to be a fact - did they find a receipt with the date on it?
If they did find one I think we would have heard about it as that would actually have been evidence. But without one it's not provable IMO.
Quote
The shopping which the child purchased found in the family home.
Unquote
-
My post in reply to RedBlossom seems to have been removed. So that's it then, is it? What is the point?
I imagine it was another piece of nonsense/vile rant..... post it agan as I didnt see it....then again...I wouldnt want to be going aganst mod decisions here
-
I agree. And how much of that 'evidence' was possibly coerced - or came straight from the PJ.
How could anyone claim the following to be a fact - did they find a receipt with the date on it?
If they did find one I think we would have heard about it as that would actually have been evidence. But without one it's not provable IMO.
Quote
The shopping which the child purchased found in the family home.
Unquote
The DETAILS will have been in the trial, NOT the review of the case on appeal, we dont have transcripts do we......so youcant ask for evidence/proof here, but of course youand others will suggest its all made up
-
Same response to you..I never CLAIMED his past violence was proof of violence in this case, so dont put words into my mouth.......as for someone not having a criminal record ergo they are likely to not be guilty of any crime, thats nonsense, happens all the time..but I think you stuck your foot in it there suggesting its possible without a record to have committed a crime...oops
Why so hostile? It's just a discussion - an exchange of views - there was no offence towards you intended in my reply. No need to go to war - just because we have different opinions.
-
To answer some of Eleanor's points.
* Leandro Silva gave evidence that a saw had gone missing from the Cipriano family home just after Joana disappeared.
* Joana's shoes remained in the family home and in particular the red ones she was wearing on the day she supposedly disappeared.
* The purchases which Joana made in the shop were found in the family home.
If Eleanor wishes to take part in a proper debate maybe she will let me or admin know, until then she is muted.
-
@ John.
You said:
* Leandro Silva gave evidence that a saw had gone missing from the Cipriano family home just after Joana disappeared.
Where did you read that?
-
@ John.
You said:
* Leandro Silva gave evidence that a saw had gone missing from the Cipriano family home just after Joana disappeared.
Where did you read that?
Daily trial reports by CdM.
ANTÓNIO LEANDRO
O padrasto de Joana deslocou-se pela segunda vez ao Tribunal, agora a pedido do Colectivo, para confirmar se existiam em sua casa os instrumentos que João Cipriano disse terem sido usados para esquartejar o corpo. Leandro disse que tinha uma serra idêntica à que foi mostrada e admitiu que teria em casa facas com lâminas semelhantes à da fotografia. A serra, disse, desapareceu desde aquela noite.
ANTONIO LEANDRO
Joana's stepfather moved the Court for a second time, now claim the Collective, to confirm that there were in his house instruments that João Cipriano said to have been used to dismember the body. Leandro said he had a saw similar to that shown and admitted that it would have at home knives with blades similar to photography. Sierra said, gone since that night.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/acusacao-pede-24-anos
-
Daily trial reports by CdM.
A linkypoo, maybe?
That doesn't correspond to what I'd read, hence my question.
-
@ John.
* Joana's shoes remained in the family home and in particular the red ones she was wearing on the day she supposedly disappeared.
I'm not sure about that.
Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.
Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html
-
@ John.
* Joana's shoes remained in the family home and in particular the red ones she was wearing on the day she supposedly disappeared.
I'm not sure about that.
Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.
Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html
The defence put their case, they lost.....and not just once, lost every appeal, start up a blog carana called leonor and joao are innocent why dont you? Failing that fill in your own thread called the defence....and why the prosecution was wrong, nite now.....oh and have a thnk about the ONLY defence here....are all confessions tortured out false? If thats what happened
-
Daily trial reports by CdM.
ANTÓNIO LEANDRO
O padrasto de Joana deslocou-se pela segunda vez ao Tribunal, agora a pedido do Colectivo, para confirmar se existiam em sua casa os instrumentos que João Cipriano disse terem sido usados para esquartejar o corpo. Leandro disse que tinha uma serra idêntica à que foi mostrada e admitiu que teria em casa facas com lâminas semelhantes à da fotografia. A serra, disse, desapareceu desde aquela noite.
ANTONIO LEANDRO
Joana's stepfather moved the Court for a second time, now claim the Collective, to confirm that there were in his house instruments that João Cipriano said to have been used to dismember the body. Leandro said he had a saw similar to that shown and admitted that it would have at home knives with blades similar to photography. Sierra said, gone since that night.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/exclusivo-cm/acusacao-pede-24-anos
There's something that I find a bit strange.
He said that he had similar saw to whatever he was shown... Well, most people in rural communities would have saws, wouldn't they?
If he had one similar, would it be safe to think that the prosecution hadn't found the alleged murder weapon?
-
@ John.
* Joana's shoes remained in the family home and in particular the red ones she was wearing on the day she supposedly disappeared.
I'm not sure about that.
Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.
Sara Rosado: "No one knows what the child was wearing, especially the shoes."
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html
Sara Rosado was Leonor's lawyer. Hardly impartial?
In any event Leandro knew what shoes she usually wore and if any were missing.
-
The defence put their case, they lost.....and not just once, lost every appeal, start up a blog carana called leonor and joao are innocent why dont you? Failing that fill in your own thread called the defence....and why the prosecution was wrong, nite now.....
What was the defence in the murder trial? I started a thread on that one, I think it's still empty.
-
Sara Rosado was Leonor's lawyer. Hardly impartial?
In any event Leandro knew what shoes she usually wore and if any were missing.
What makes you think that Leandro (who was also an arguido, and who wasn't there when she disappeared) would know what sandals his step-daughter wore to run an errand that evening?
-
What was the defence in the murder trial? I started a thread on that one, I think it's still empty.
See your post 2 on here, some of the defense is there, why ask US???? As if anyone here knows....WE do NOT have access to the trial transcripts CARANA as well YOU know
Ta
Go off and research.......and do let us know what you find.......if anything, night dear
OH BTW you did NOT ask what the defence was in THIS trial in your thread, you asked what evidence might a defence produce in a murder trial... different and neutral...TOTALLY different question and context, hmmm, best to be forthright next time
!!!
-
What makes you think that Leandro (who was also an arguido, and who wasn't there when she disappeared) would know what sandals his step-daughter wore to run an errand that evening?
The PJ took him and Joana's aunt along to inspect which clothing or shoes if any were missing.
The Judicial Police (PJ) spent the afternoon and early evening yesterday, a total of about seven hours in a row, in the house where he lived Joana Cipriano, who disappeared 39 days ago in the village of Figueira (Portimão). With inspectors were also the stepfather of the child and an aunt of this, 17 years.
According to the learned DN, one aspect of the PJ led these new and protracted investigations, which included the presence of two elements of the Scientific Police - what happens for the third time in the space of a month - has to do with clothing and shoes commonly used by smaller. PJ wanted to know in particular whether the cabinet Joan missing some clothes, besides he wore at the time of his disappearance.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dn.pt/inicio/interior.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D586629&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djoana%2Bcipriano%2Bsapatos%2Bvermelhos%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D9JV%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
-
The PJ took him and Joana's aunt along to inspect which clothing or shoes if any were missing.
The Judicial Police (PJ) spent the afternoon and early evening yesterday, a total of about seven hours in a row, in the house where he lived Joana Cipriano, who disappeared 39 days ago in the village of Figueira (Portimão). With inspectors were also the stepfather of the child and an aunt of this, 17 years.
According to the learned DN, one aspect of the PJ led these new and protracted investigations, which included the presence of two elements of the Scientific Police - what happens for the third time in the space of a month - has to do with clothing and shoes commonly used by smaller. PJ wanted to know in particular whether the cabinet Joan missing some clothes, besides he wore at the time of his disappearance.
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dn.pt/inicio/interior.aspx%3Fcontent_id%3D586629&prev=/search%3Fq%3Djoana%2Bcipriano%2Bsapatos%2Bvermelhos%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D9JV%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
Thanks. The link doesn't seem to work. I'd hoped to be able to go to the original.
Anyway, I'm trying to understand this. The PJ went to check her clothes and shoes... 39 days after she'd disappeared. Did I read that correctly?
-
See your post 2 on here, some of the defense is there, why ask US???? As if anyone here knows....WE do NOT have access to the trial transcripts CARANA as well YOU know
Ta
Go off and research.......and do let us know what you find.......if anything, night dear
OH BTW you did NOT ask what the defence was in THIS trial in your thread, you asked what evidence might a defence produce in a murder trial... different and neutral...TOTALLY different question and context, hmmm, best to be forthright next time
!!!
You were replying to this post of mine... and sorry, you lost me.
Quote from: Carana on Today at 09:55:52 PM
What was the defence in the murder trial? I started a thread on that one, I think it's still empty.
Doesn't matter, the thread in question seems to have gone walkies anyway.
-
Sorry Carana, here's the original and yes a lot of time was lost both by the GNR and then the PJ.
http://www.dn.pt/inicio/interior.aspx?content_id=586629
I think we need to look at the Joana Cipriano case very carefully so I suggest we come up with a strategy to accomplish this. I am compiling a list of known facts in the case so that we can at least get rid of the myths.
We don't have original court records but we do have the daily reporting from the court which is the next best thing and if we interpolate between reports we can usually get to the facts.
The trial only lasted 20 hours so there can't be that much beyond our reach even now.
-
Sorry Carana, here's the original and yes a lot of time was lost both by the GNR and then the PJ.
http://www.dn.pt/inicio/interior.aspx?content_id=586629
I think we need to look at the Joana Cipriano case very carefully so I suggest we come up with a strategy to accomplish this. I am compiling a list of known facts in the case so that we can at least get rid of the myths.
We don't have original court records but we do have the daily reporting from the court which is the next best thing and if we interpolate between reports we can usually get to the facts.
The trial only lasted 20 hours so there can't be that much beyond our reach even now.
John you have raised two important points of evidence...
the shopping was in the house that Joanna bought
Childs handprint in blood
Could you tell us where you got this information from
-
John you have raised two important points of evidence...
the shopping was in the house that Joanna bought
Childs handprint in blood
Could you tell us where you got this information from
You can add to this the evidence by Antonio Leandro the partner who stated that there was no need to send Joana to the shop for milk as he himself had stocked up on that product.
Not forgetting too that Leandro told the court that Joao confessed to him and Leonor told an entirely different story to him when he visited her in prison sending him out back to search for a body. Are you going to tell me these are the actions of 'innocents' ??
-
You can add to this the evidence by Antonio Leandro the partner who stated that there was no need to send Joana to the shop for milk as he himself had stocked up on that product.
Not forgetting too that Leandro told the court that Joao confessed to him and Leonor told an entirely different story to him when he visited her in prison sending him out back to search for a body. Are you going to tell me these are the actions of 'innocents' ??
im asking where the information comes from...yours as well while we are at it...the more I look at this case the more I think they are innocent
-
I would go even further...there is no real evidence that either committed a crime, despite the claims of a large number of blood stains ..no dna match...
-
I would go even further...there is no real evidence that either committed a crime, despite the claims of a large number of blood stains ..no dna match...
Just out of curiosity Dave what would you call real evidence? Was their refusal to speak in court a clue for you??
-
Just out of curiosity Dave what would you call real evidence? Was their refusal to speak in court a clue for you??
Still no answer to the source of the so called evidence..real evidence..blood dna match...the fact that it doesn't indicates she did not bleed at the supposed murder scene
-
Still no answer to the source of the so called evidence..real evidence..blood dna match...the fact that it doesn't indicates she did not bleed at the supposed murder scene
The source of the evidence is the court. I agree that the forensics were unable to get a DNA match for the blood found on the door frame, walls and floors as the Ciprianos used petrol and bleach to mask the contaminant.
Why would Joao tell Leandro that he killed her and fed the remains to the pigs if it was a load of nonsense?
-
The source of the evidence is the court. I agree that the forensics were unable to get a DNA match for the blood found on the door frame, walls and floors as the Ciprianos used petrol and bleach to mask the contaminant.
So you have the court transcripts
-
I've just realised that quite a bit of the Supreme Court document hasn't been translated...
-
The source of the evidence is the court. I agree that the forensics were unable to get a DNA match for the blood found on the door frame, walls and floors as the Ciprianos used petrol and bleach to mask the contaminant.
Why would Joao tell Leandro that he killed her and fed the remains to the pigs if it was a load of nonsense?
its all about what is and isn't true ...so whats the source for this statement
-
The source of the evidence is the court. I agree that the forensics were unable to get a DNA match for the blood found on the door frame, walls and floors as the Ciprianos used petrol and bleach to mask the contaminant.
Why would Joao tell Leandro that he killed her and fed the remains to the pigs if it was a load of nonsense?
That seems to be the prosecution's hypothesis.
Not proved:
15- that arguida BB used detergent and bleach to wash the wall and the floor where blood spots from CC were;
And she didn't even buy this petrol/kerosene, whatever it was, until 18 Sept.
aad) on the 18th of September, arguida BB bought petrol and a steel scrub-cloth, with which she washed the house, thus seizing the opportunity to erase almost all vestiges of what had happened there, and only traces of human blood which had been contaminated by the products that were used, remained inside the house;
-
it seem there are a lot of claims being made that do not have any credence...myths basically
-
it seem there are a lot of claims being made that do not have any credence...myths basically
Most certainly not myths. Its not my fault that you cannot research Portuguese reporting on the day of the trial. Its all there in black and white in the CdM and the other dailys. I find it amusing that everyone can research the McCann case but the minute the language changes to Portuguese they all run away claiming there is no evidence.
Fact: Petrol and bleach were used to clean blood from the surfaces. It was up to the jury to decide why?
Fact: Leandro gave evidence to the court that Joao confessed to him that he did the the murder. It was up to the jury to decide whether he was a credible witness.
Fact: Leandro gave evidence to the court that some of his tools including a hacksaw disappeared along with Joana. Again it was down to the jury to make the connection.
All circumstantial evidence certainly but evidence all the same.
-
Only the first few witness statements seem to have been translated.
In the missing ones, (if I've understood the gist) is one (MM who seems to be Leandro's stepfather) which seems to be stating that a woman had phone saying she was Leonor at about 12:30 am to ask about Joana as she'd disappeared and he saw her crying the next day on her way to or from the police station to make the official report.
-
Most certainly not myths. Its not my fault that you cannot research Portuguese reporting on the day of the trial. Its all there in black and white in the CdM and the other dailys. I find it amusing that everyone can research the McCann case but the minute the language changes to Portuguese they all run away claiming there is no evidence.
Fact: Petrol and bleach were used to clean blood from the surfaces. It was up to the jury to decide why?
Fact: Leandro gave evidence to the court that Joao confessed to him that he did the the murder. It was up to the jury to decide whether he was a credible witness.
Fact: Leandro gave evidence to the court that some of his tools including a hacksaw disappeared along with Joana. Again it was down to the jury to make the connection.
All circumstantial evidence certainly but evidence all the same.
It is a fact that it was alleged that bleach and petrol had been used. There doesn't appear to be any forensic evidence for that in the court document.
See my earlier post...
-
Most certainly not myths. Its not my fault that you cannot research Portuguese reporting on the day of the trial. Its all there in black and white in the CdM and the other dailys. I find it amusing that everyone can research the McCann case but the minute the language changes to Portuguese they all run away claiming there is no evidence.
Fact: Petrol and bleach were used to clean blood from the surfaces. It was up to the jury to decide why?
Fact: Leandro gave evidence to the court that Joao confessed to him that he did the the murder. It was up to the jury to decide whether he was a credible witness.
Fact: Leandro gave evidence to the court that some of his tools including a hacksaw disappeared along with Joana. Again it was down to the jury to make the connection.
All circumstantial evidence certainly but evidence all the same.
from what I can see you are getting all this from newspapers..the same papers who said things like Gerry wasn't maddies real father
-
from what I can see you are getting all this from newspapers..the same papers who said things like Gerry wasn't maddies real father
Dont get carried away now...reporting on court proceedings is not the same as writing speculative articles...big difference!
-
Dont get carried away now...reporting on court proceedings is not the same as writing speculative articles...big difference!
we don't know how much was actual reporting and how much was speculation...We would have to see the actual articles to be sure ...shouldn't be a problem.. what we do know is that john has already made statement that they testified in court which we know is untrue. Unlike you I am not prepared to condemn people without proper evidence...
-
Some of these "facts" are actually in the Supreme Court document. Some seem to be proven, others seem to be just accepted under the "rules of common experience".
The police officers went to check out this house on 22 September, which is when they found these blood spots, but it hadn't been sealed off.
There were some traces of human and animal blood, but were they all blood spots? What did they use in situ? A U/V torch? If so, it's not only blood that would show up. It would then be up to be lab to determine what they could.
Body fluids such as saliva, semen, vaginal fluids, urine, and perspiration give off fluorescent light when illuminated by a source of ultraviolet light, which is a very efficient method for detecting such stains in a crime scene or in objects collected from the scene, such as clothing, towels, bed sheets, or decorative items. Even dried stains become fluorescent under UV light.
http://www.enotes.com/topics/ultraviolet-light-analysis
They may have used other tests in situ, but it's not clear.
-
we don't know how much was actual reporting and how much was speculation...We would have to see the actual articles to be sure ...shouldn't be a problem.. what we do know is that john has already made statement that they testified in court which we know is untrue. Unlike you I am not prepared to condemn people without proper evidence...
Dont get carried away now...reporting on court proceedings is not the same as writing speculative articles...big difference!
And did anyone say Leandro testified IN COURT? As opposed to testified TO the authorities ergo to the court?
Do YOU actually know what is true or not? Without having all the facts at your fingertips? Which for you are FACTS, you and some of your your ilk assert that nothing the arguidos said can be taken as evidence as they were tortured or under a threat of torture, therefore you have NO facts from their mouths in that argument...where is their defence?...if you want to argue that two innocent people were put away for murder with ZERO evidence, do carry on......
-
Dont get carried away now...reporting on court proceedings is not the same as writing speculative articles...big difference!
And did anyone say Leandro testified IN COURT? As opposed to testified TO the authorities ergo to the court?
Do YOU actually know what is true or not? Without having all the facts at your fingertips? Which for you are FACTS, you and some of your your ilk assert that nothing the arguidos said can be taken as evidence as they were tortured or under a threat of torture, therefore you have NO facts from their mouths in that argument...where is their defence?...if you want to argue that two innocent people were put away for murder with ZERO evidence, do carry on......
you certainly cannot accept as reliable a statement which has been extracted due to torture..we know Leonor was tortured by the PJ...Joao and Leandro both claim to have been assaulted... unsafe conviction from what I can see
-
you certainly cannot accept as reliable a statement which has been extracted due to torture..we know Leonor was tortured by the PJ...Joao and Leandro both claim to have been assaulted... unsafe conviction from what I can see
Was she being tortured in 2009 when she made her statement blaming her brother for tryng to sell her?/killing her?
Eta
As to what she said when and where before during or after a pj or inmate beating its very murky to get to the facts as its one persons word aganst anothers......there are too many versions
-
Was she being tortured in 2009 when she made her statement blaming her brother for tryng to sell her?/killing her?
What a stupid thing to say..do you have a cite to this statement
-
What a stupid thing to say..do you have a cite to this statement
whch bit was stupid?
Eta Ive given you a link before, did you file it under not relevant???
I cant reproduce the link at moment as Jm site is playing up, cheers
-
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/25449/1/Santos%20Filipe%20-%20The%20Dissemination%20and%20Popularisation%20of%20Surveillance.pdf
this article is worth a read...5 cases looked at including McCannn and Cipriano. Out of five cases the pj managed to get confessions in three..How are they managing a 60% confession rate..Torture?
-
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/25449/1/Santos%20Filipe%20-%20The%20Dissemination%20and%20Popularisation%20of%20Surveillance.pdf
this article is worth a read...5 cases looked at including McCannn and Cipriano. Out of five cases the pj managed to get confessions in three..How are they managing a 60% confession rate..Torture?
Thanks for that. I've bookmarked it, but I haven't read it yet. You might be interested in another study
A imprensa popular e a genética forense - CSI Portugal?
Helena Machado
Universidade do Minho
Filipe Santos
Universidade de Coimbra
I can't give a link as it's an automatic pdf download.
-
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/25449/1/Santos%20Filipe%20-%20The%20Dissemination%20and%20Popularisation%20of%20Surveillance.pdf
this article is worth a read...5 cases looked at including McCannn and Cipriano. Out of five cases the pj managed to get confessions in three..How are they managing a 60% confession rate..Torture?
Yes, sure, the PJ torture 60 per cent of murder suspects.......leading to confessions and convictions......have you not been reading the news? Lately?
-
What a stupid thing to say..do you have a cite to this statement
http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html
In her own writing as well, was she being tortured in 2009 when she wrote this?????
-
Why do you consistently bring the McCanns and Madeleine into this board Dave? I am not in the least interested in discussing McCann here as they are irrelevant to this case.
As far as John's reference to Leonor giving evidence is concerned he clarified this. She and Joao both stood silent at their own trial having been told by their respective lawyers that it was to their advantage to do so. Leonor gave evidence at the trial of the PJ officers and that is where the perjury conviction comes from. Hope this helps??
-
you certainly cannot accept as reliable a statement which has been extracted due to torture..we know Leonor was tortured by the PJ...Joao and Leandro both claim to have been assaulted... unsafe conviction from what I can see
Have a look at the Jury argument
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
http://www.freetranslation.com/
-
The more I look at the facts in this case the more convinced I am that Leonor was involved. Joao even stated in his statement that he wanted to call for medical assistance for the child but Leonor wouldn't do it. Ask yourself who on earth would make up such a thing unless they were trying to protect their own position.
And who on earth would drag the police around scrap yards, dumps, rivers, drainage canals and heavens know where else for over a dozen days in a row on some sort of wild goose chase if they were innocent??
-
The more I look at the facts in this case the more convinced I am that Leonor was involved. Joao even stated in his statement that he wanted to call for medical assistance for the child but Leonor wouldn't do it. Ask yourself who on earth would make up such a thing unless they were trying to protect their own position.
And who on earth would drag the police around scrap yards, dumps, rivers, drainage canals and heavens know where else for over a dozen days in a row on some sort of wild goose chase if they were innocent??
Where did you see that about medical assistance ? Angelo
-
The more I look at the facts in this case the more convinced I am that Leonor was involved. Joao even stated in his statement that he wanted to call for medical assistance for the child but Leonor wouldn't do it. Ask yourself who on earth would make up such a thing unless they were trying to protect their own position.
And who on earth would drag the police around scrap yards, dumps, rivers, drainage canals and heavens know where else for over a dozen days in a row on some sort of wild goose chase if they were innocent??
the more you look at the facts?...but they aren't facts...it could well be that most of the so called facts you believe are lies by the pj to support their case...that's why I keep asking you for the source of your facts...it seems most are from the Portuguese equivalent of the SUN newspaper.
the more I see the lack of facts and the pathetic attempt to prove the case the more I see a miscarriage of justice
So where does the story highlighted in red come from
-
the more you look at the facts?...but they aren't facts...it could well be that most of the so called facts you believe are lies by the pj to support their case...that's why I keep asking you for the source of your facts...it seems most are from the Portuguese equivalent of the SUN newspaper.
the more I see the lack of facts and the pathetic attempt to prove the case the more I see a miscarriage of justice
So where does the story highlighted in red come from
You omit of course, that it is you are deluded in thinking the Cipriano's are innocent. >@@(*&)
-
You omit of course, that it is you are deluded in thinking the Cipriano's are innocent. >@@(*&)
That's an opinion Stephen and as you have tried to insult me I think I can say an opinion from someone who isn't very bright
-
http://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/translation-of-leonor-ciprianos.html
In her own writing as well, was she being tortured in 2009 when she wrote this?????
Ignoring this answer to your question for any particular reason davel????
-
That's an opinion Stephen and as you have tried to insult me I think I can say an opinion from someone who isn't very bright
Oh dear, insults fly again about levels of intelligence davel.
Again a classic sign of losing the argument.
Never expected that from you. @)(++(*
-
Oh dear, insults fly again about levels of intelligence davel.
Again a classic sign of losing the argument.
Never expected that from you. @)(++(*
Davel is qualified and always right in calling people stupid etc etc
-
Oh dear, insults fly again about levels of intelligence davel.
Again a classic sign of losing the argument.
Never expected that from you. @)(++(*
you don't even notice it was you who started the insults. You bring nothing to the debate just personal insults ..read your own post..if you have nothing to offer it would be best not to post
-
Ignoring this answer to your question for any particular reason davel????
yes because I have already answered the same question from you on another thread. You have obviously forgotten
-
yes because I have already answered the same question from you on another thread. You have obviously forgotten
You must be confused, i didnt ask a question YOU asked me one..in the latest part of the discourse.....i supplied you with the answer....read back dear instead of obfuscating... I await your answer to the question which was...was leonor being tortured when she gave her 2009 confession, the link which i gave to too cheers
-
you don't even notice it was you who started the insults. You bring nothing to the debate just personal insults ..read your own post..if you have nothing to offer it would be best not to post
Saying you are deluded as regards this case is hardly an insult.
You have repeatedly insulted me over a period of months, but you adopt the classic mccann supporter mantra of of accusing others when you partake in insults galore.
-
Davel is qualified and always right in calling people stupid etc etc
Naturally.
How could we consider otherwise.
-
Naturally.
How could we consider otherwise.
Its quite pathetic all in all......not as if he exhibits any remote sign of einstein dna.....even he likes to think so lolol
@)(++(*
-
I want to hear davel, some cold hard FACTS, why the Cipriano's are innocent ?
No rhetoric please.
-
I want to hear davel, some cold hard FACTS, why the Cipriano's are innocent ?
No rhetoric please.
Fact...no one has to prove innocence..you have got it back to front
There is no decent evidence against them to prove guilt..the only real fact we have is that Leonor was savagely tortured by the pj
-
Fact...no one has to prove innocence..you have got it back to front
There is no decent evidence against them to prove guilt..the only real fact we have is that Leonor was savagely tortured by the pj
That is your opinion and some of your fellow mccann supporters.
Also, a brief reminder, they have been convicted, do davel what do they have to prove ???
-
That is your opinion and some of your fellow mccann supporters.
Also, a brief reminder, they have been convicted, do davel what do they have to prove ???
No that's the rule of law..its not an opinion..you don't seem to understand the basics
-
No that's the rule of law..its not an opinion..you don't seem to understand the basics
They have been found guilty.
It is you who doesn't comprehend.
-
They have been found guilty.
It is you who doesn't comprehend.
They have been found guilty..is that it
so was Barry George, bham 6 etc ..etc..etc
I had noticed they were found guilty..what we are discussing is the possibility of a miscarriage of justice..have you read any of the posts
-
They have been found guilty..is that it
so was Barry George, bham 6 etc ..etc..etc
I had noticed they were found guilty..what we are discussing is the possibility of a miscarriage of justice..have you read any of the posts
No, it is you who believe in a miscarriage of justice, along with some of your fellow supporters.
As has been stated so many times, this is all about trying to attack Amaral, and no more.
-
No, it is you who believe in a miscarriage of justice, along with some of your fellow supporters.
As has been stated so many times, this is all about trying to attack Amaral, and no more.
Stephen..you are adding nothing to the debate... I believe there may have been a miscarriage of justice... I am free to believe what I wish ...There is no real evidence against the Ciprianos... if you have some please let us know
-
No, it is you who believe in a miscarriage of justice, along with some of your fellow supporters.
As has been stated so many times, this is all about trying to attack Amaral, and no more.
the title of the thread is prosecution evidence..please stick to the topic
-
Stephen..you are adding nothing to the debate... I believe there may have been a miscarriage of justice... I am free to believe what I wish ...There is no real evidence against the Ciprianos... if you have some please let us know
You are not debating, merely giving the classic mccann supporter mantra.
They have been found guilty.
-
the title of the thread is prosecution evidence..please stick to the topic
Why is the prosecution evidence wrong ?
Facts please, no rhetoric.
-
Why is the prosecution evidence wrong ?
Facts please, no rhetoric.
what prosecution evidence..thats the whole point...do you have a clue what is going on
-
what prosecution evidence..thats the whole point
No, that is your view.
Now let's have some facts why the prosecution was wrong.
-
No, that is your view.
Now let's have some facts why the prosecution was wrong.
its not my view..this is a fact the John posted...whats your opinion
Investigations conducted by the Judicial Police of Faro coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral did not reach any clear proof against Leonor and João Cipriano - just a theory, a story that the prosecutor José Pinheiro struggled to defend in court.
-
its not my view..this is a fact the John posted...whats your opinion
Investigations conducted by the Judicial Police of Faro coordinated by Gonçalo Amaral did not reach any clear proof against Leonor and João Cipriano - just a theory, a story that the prosecutor José Pinheiro struggled to defend in court.
Read all that.
You as usual are being very selective in what you quote, why not give reference to all the court files on the case /
Now if you really have the courage of your convictions, stop typing , and do something about it.
-
Read all that.
You as usual are being very selective in what you quote, why not give reference to all the court files on the case /
Now if you really have the courage of your convictions, stop typing , and do something about it.
All the available court files have been referenced and I have read them..perhaps you should before you make any more of your stupid posts
-
All the available court files have been referenced and I have read them..perhaps you should before you make any more of your stupid posts
Here we go again with your insults.
No, you just quoted what suited you.
Now if you really believe in what you say, donate funds to the Cipriano's to help them have the verdict overturned.
-
Here we go again with your insults.
No, you just quoted what suited you.
Now if you really believe in what you say, donate funds to the Cipriano's to help them have the verdict overturned.
another stupid post..if there is a help fund I would gladly donate
-
another stupid post..if there is a help fund I would gladly donate
Insults, insults.
Set one up. 8((()*/
-
Do we have a thread on defence evidence?
-
another stupid post..if there is a help fund I would gladly donate
Did you read leonoras letter confession from 2009 yet? Any comment? Silence is golden...
-
Did you read leonoras letter confession from 2009 yet? Any comment? Silence is golden...
There are some serious doubts about the authenticity of that so called Confession. The handwriting of the letter and the handwriting of the signature are not the same. Was it dictated, and if so to whom? And why would she bother to dictate a hand written letter to someone else who doesn't even say who they are?
-
There are some serious doubts about the authenticity of that so called Confession. The handwriting of the letter and the handwriting of the signature are not the same. Was it dictated, and if so to whom? And why would she bother to dictate a hand written letter to someone else who doesn't even say who they are?
Who has the doubts? Has Leonor said that letter was a fake? Does your signature match your everyday handwriting?
-
Yep, my signature perfectly matches my hand writing. And if I was dictating a confession I would expect it to be type written, and acknowledged by the person who took the dictation. Otherwise it wouldn't be valid.
-
Yep, my signature perfectly matches my hand writing. And if I was dictating a confession I would expect it to be type written, and acknowledged by the person who took the dictation. Otherwise it wouldn't be valid.
Leonor didn't sign it.
Inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristovao and Marques Bom signed the document saying it was the result of an “informal chat” that took place with Leonor Cipriano.
-
Leonor didn't sign it.
Inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristovao and Marques Bom signed the document saying it was the result of an “informal chat” that took place with Leonor Cipriano.
You forgot the back up link dear....
-
Yep, my signature perfectly matches my hand writing. And if I was dictating a confession I would expect it to be type written, and acknowledged by the person who took the dictation. Otherwise it wouldn't be valid.
Who said she dictated it instead of writing it???
And youdidnt answer my question, has she said its a fake?
As for signatures which are often scrawl.....no evidence they shuld match handwriting
-
Leonor didn't sign it.
Inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristovao and Marques Bom signed the document saying it was the result of an “informal chat” that took place with Leonor Cipriano.
Jeez, that's even worse. What is coming out is awful. That poor woman.
-
Who said she dictated it instead of writing it???
And youdidnt answer my question, has she said its a fake?
I think it is becoming more and more obvious that a gross miscarriage of justice has taken place...someone jailed for 20 years on evidence gained from torture
-
Leonor didn't sign it.
Inspectors Paulo Pereira Cristovao and Marques Bom signed the document saying it was the result of an “informal chat” that took place with Leonor Cipriano.
A 'confession' came as a result of an 'informal chat'? So no lawyer present then?
-
A 'confession' came as a result of an 'informal chat'? So no lawyer present then?
And Leonor Cipriano didn't even write it herself. This is a scandal. But thanks to RedBlossom for providing the link. We really do need to know about these things, and the lengths to which some of these people will go.
And didn't Cristovao write a book about this case? You know, the Cristovao who has got so many criminal charges against him that I have lost count.
Tick Tock.
-
another stupid post..if there is a help fund I would gladly donate
Me too
-
Me too
And me. I want Leonor Cipriano to know that she hasn't been forgotten.
-
So NO ONE here has provided any evidence thatleonor didnt write that 2009 letter...hmmmm....pot kettle black vis a vis evidence
-
So NO ONE here has provided any evidence thatleonor didnt write that 2009 letter...hmmmm....pot kettle black vis a vis evidence
And you haven't proved that she did. But thanks for the link.
-
And you haven't proved that she did. But thanks for the link.
I dont have to prove anything.....the accuser ie YOU has to prove its a fake, cheers
-
I dont have to prove anything.....the accuser ie YOU has to prove its a fake, cheers
Not so, Sweetie. You produced the link as gospel when it clearly isn't.
-
Not so, Sweetie. You produced the link as gospel when it clearly isn't.
Its evidence, if you say its a fake its your job to prove so.....simples
gosh so much supporting murderers is getting pretty vile now...and all because...to make the mccanns white,, fail......
8((()*/
-
Its evidence, if you say its a fake its your job to prove so.....simples
gosh so much supporting murderers is getting pretty vile now...and all because...to make the mccanns white,, fail......
8((()*/
You can always leave.
-
You can always leave.
You could even attempt to answer questions withanswers.....something youhave proved is too hard for you as youve evaded every single one....oh well.......says it all...youre attempts atbullying and intimidation andevasion equal 0/10 so far,no surprise
8)--))
Leave? leave where? Fantasist
-
The 8 page statement It seems the Blogger's name is Astro He lives in Portomao and he has an email Which is the easiest way to find out if what he posted was authentic or not, but I cant make a connection. It
does look pretty real though and I have read it elsewhere which I had to translate. It is a statement and not a cconfession, I believe
-
The 8 page statement It seems the Blogger's name is Astro He lives in Portomao and he has an email Which is the easiest way to find out if what he posted was authentic or not, but I cant make a connection. It
does look pretty real though and I have read it elsewhere which I had to translate. It is a statement and not a cconfession, I believe
I think Astro is considered an avid anti. I have never met him on a forum, but heard of him.
I, personally, would scrutinize everything he said.
-
Its evidence, if you say its a fake its your job to prove so.....simples
gosh so much supporting murderers is getting pretty vile now...and all because...to make the mccanns white,, fail......
8((()*/
doesn't matter whether its real or fake...perhaps she did write it..
she tried telling the truth..where did that get her ..beaten to a pulp and a 20 yr prison sentence...perhaps she would lie to try and get out of prison..I would and I wouldn't blame her
-
im asking where the information comes from...yours as well while we are at it...the more I look at this case the more I think they are innocent
I see nothing at all to support your extraordinary view. Neither did the justice system. The pair are/were the most horrible sounding people. The child was treated appalllingly.
Of course criminals who want to get away with murder are going to lie and try to frame other people That's what criminals do.
"Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
Kate McCann chose to bring up this case in her book, in order to cast doubt on Amaral, She should have looked a bit more closely at the behaviour of the murdered child's mother and the way this child was neglected.
It says a great deal about the McCann's lack of integrity, among other things, that they tried to use this case as a way of discrediting Amaral. A great deal.
There is not a single thing I have read about the case that leads me to a conclusion that there has been a miscarriage of justice.
-
I see nothing at all to support your extraordinary view. Neither did the justice system. The pair are/were the most horrible sounding people. The child was treated appalllingly.
Of course criminals who want to get away with murder are going to lie and try to frame other people That's what criminals do.
"Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
Kate McCann chose to bring up this case in her book, in order to cast doubt on Amaral, She should have looked a bit more closely at the behaviour of the murdered child's mother and the way this child was neglected.
It says a great deal about the McCann's lack of integrity, among other things, that they tried to use this case as a way of discrediting Amaral. A great deal.
There is not a single thing I have read about the case that leads me to a conclusion that there has been a miscarriage of justice.
They should have got longer sentences, that is the only miscarriage of justice here.
-
They should have got longer sentences, that is the only miscarriage of justice here.
What is your opinion based on? I had assumed that they were guilty as well until I started looking at the actual evidence... And discovered there was nothing material of any significance.
-
They should have got longer sentences, that is the only miscarriage of justice here.
The mother got a longer sentence for perjury.....small mercies
-
What is your opinion based on? I had assumed that they were guilty as well until I started looking at the actual evidence... And discovered there was nothing material of any significance.
Have you seen Joana recently?
-
Have you seen Joana recently?
Sadie has..shes in that photo of madeleine and joana taken in morrocco lololol
http://metro.co.uk/2007/09/25/girl-in-moroccan-photo-is-not-madeleine-174924/
Joana in orange top,sadie said her legs were right, and maddie n the back of the mother, sorted
legs
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg106782#msg106782
@)(++(*
sad sad and sadder
-
Have you seen Joana recently?
What's that supposed to mean?
She might be dead, but who was looking for her after the first few days? Who, in her family, had the means to carry on searching for her? If she's not dead, she'd be nearly 18. How would anyone recognise her? The only hope, if she's not dead, is that she'll piece together her memories and try to find her roots some day.
-
I see nothing at all to support your extraordinary view. Neither did the justice system. The pair are/were the most horrible sounding people. The child was treated appalllingly.
Of course criminals who want to get away with murder are going to lie and try to frame other people That's what criminals do.
"Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
Kate McCann chose to bring up this case in her book, in order to cast doubt on Amaral, She should have looked a bit more closely at the behaviour of the murdered child's mother and the way this child was neglected.
It says a great deal about the McCann's lack of integrity, among other things, that they tried to use this case as a way of discrediting Amaral. A great deal.
There is not a single thing I have read about the case that leads me to a conclusion that there has been a miscarriage of justice.
If they had cctv images of police interrogations there wouldn't be this issue. It has recently been recommended (as I posted on an earlier thread) at least concerning formal interviews, but the police want to know where the funds would come from.
In the meantime, anyone can accuse anyone of misbehaviour. Even that recommendation doesn't cover informal or semi-formal interviews in a police station or elsewhere.
-
I see nothing at all to support your extraordinary view. Neither did the justice system. The pair are/were the most horrible sounding people. The child was treated appalllingly.
Of course criminals who want to get away with murder are going to lie and try to frame other people That's what criminals do.
"Guilhermino da Encarnação: "This is extremely difficult because, in 30 years of criminal investigation, I've never seen the confession of such a serious crime without the arguidos saying they were tortured, attacked or raped so that this, for us police officers, and I tell you, unfortunately, it has become the norm, natural. Therefore I don't give it a lot of credence."
Kate McCann chose to bring up this case in her book, in order to cast doubt on Amaral, She should have looked a bit more closely at the behaviour of the murdered child's mother and the way this child was neglected.
It says a great deal about the McCann's lack of integrity, among other things, that they tried to use this case as a way of discrediting Amaral. A great deal.
There is not a single thing I have read about the case that leads me to a conclusion that there has been a miscarriage of justice.
Joana Pictures
1)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano101.jpg
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano101.jpg)Joana at school. Beautifully presented and slim but not at all underweight imo. This photo no longer shows for some reason, but below is poor quality version. Have had to really search the internet for this. Before it was easy to find. Same with some other of the photos.
http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/joana-cipriano-joana-cipriano-eight-year-old-portuguese-girl-missing-since-september-12-2004-file-photos-069wCn.jpg
(http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos/joana-cipriano-joana-cipriano-eight-year-old-portuguese-girl-missing-since-september-12-2004-file-photos-069wCn.jpg)
2)
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano2.jpg
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joanacipriano2.jpg) Joana in ?dressing gown? Looking very plump and happy, at home, I think
3)
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg
(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.1.jpg.w560h560.jpg)
At a cafe with Leonor and Leandro. Looking happy enough.
5)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0PRT7WgBWRI/TNCBrxOmg1I/AAAAAAAAABE/S-iPU7aKDls/s400/Image+4+Joana+Cipriano+(514+x+600).jpg
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0PRT7WgBWRI/TNCBrxOmg1I/AAAAAAAAABE/S-iPU7aKDls/s400/Image+4+Joana+Cipriano+(514+x+600).jpg) Cropped version of same photo as above . Joana on her own in cafe. Nicely dressed, plump and looking happy enough.
6)
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.3.jpg.w560h560.jpg
(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.3.jpg.w560h560.jpg)
Joana looking very happy at her baby siblings (?sisters) first birthday with sister and Leandro and birthday cake, at home
They are not paupers or malnourished in any way. Nor lacking in love and attention. Happy kids, both nicely dressed with an attentive and proud daddy.
See the healthy salad in the foreground?
7)
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/JoanaCipriano.home.jpg
(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/JoanaCipriano.home.jpg) Enlargement of above just showing a really happy Joana , at home with birthday cake.
8)
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.4.jpg.w560h373.jpg
(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.4.jpg.w560h373.jpg)
A happy Joana with friends or family and ?younger siblings? at ?home?
9)
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/websiteJoana.5.jpg.w560h373.jpg
http://marcosaragaocorreia.fatcow.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/JoanaCipriano.5.jpg
(http://marcosaragaocorreia.fatcow.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/JoanaCipriano.5.jpg)
Enlargement of previous photo. Joana looks well fed and very happy
10)
http://i.prphotos.com/t/3063/SPX-013063/Joana-Cipriano-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg
(http://i.prphotos.com/t/3063/SPX-013063/Joana-Cipriano-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg)
PJ photo of Joana with face screwed up. Marcos Aragao Correira was annoyed that the PJ chose than one to show Joana ; he felt they deliberately chose the plainest of all the photos.
12)
http://i.prphotos.com/i/SPX-013074/Joana-Cipriano-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg
(http://i.prphotos.com/i/SPX-013074/Joana-Cipriano-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg)
13)
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/Jornal24horas11Maio2009p5.jpg.w560h771.jpg
(http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/Jornal24horas11Maio2009p5.jpg.w560h771.jpg)
Leonor on bed with toddler and Joanas picture. Room simple but clean. Mother and little one dressed fine. Little one looks healthy and content
Cipriano/Silva Home
1)
http://i.prphotos.com/t/3076/SPX-013076/Joana-Ciprianos-Home-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg
(http://i.prphotos.com/t/3076/SPX-013076/Joana-Ciprianos-Home-Joana-Cipriano,-Eight-Year-Old-Portuguese-Girl,-Missing-Since-September-12,-2004---File-Photos.jpg) Joana Ciprianos home. Outside view
2)
http://i.prphotos.com/mas_assets/prphotos/images/recent-thumb.png
(http://i.prphotos.com/mas_assets/prphotos/images/recent-thumb.png)
Cipriano/Silva Home. Kitchen. Neat, tidy and clean
Oh, I see this last photo showing a tidy, clean, immaculate (if simple) kitchen /living room has been struck by the phantom image destroyer... YET AGAIN !
The Phantom image destroyer seems to get rid of any evidence that proves the disgusting disinformation propaganda put about is lies.
But sufficient peeps on here and elsewhere have seen the kichen/ sitting room to know how claen, tidy and well kept it was.
Yeah, it really looks as tho The child was treated appalllingly.
Wrong again j.rob. You have been taken for a sucker like loads of people. Give up if you cant get it right. It is not fair to keep propagating lies and myths.
I have videos and more images if you need further convincing that Joana was well fed, and very happy. She deeply loved her Mum and family.
What evil propaganda has been put about ... and how powerful it has proved.
You are adding to it.
-
False confessions and incriminating statements lead to wrongful convictions in approximately 25 percent of cases. Looking only at the homicide cases, false confessions are the leading contributor to wrongful convictions, contributing to 64 (62%) of the 104 homicide wrongful convictions that were overturned by DNA evidence, where as misidentifications contributed to only 32 (31%) of the homicide wrongful convictions. Twenty-nine of the DNA exonerees pled guilty to crimes they did not commit. The Innocence Project encourages police departments to electronically record all custodial interrogations in their entirety in order to prevent coercion and to provide an accurate record of the proceedings.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DNA_Exonerations_Nationwide.php
-
I found this analysis of the case written as a PHD project at a Portuguese university...this in an excerpt...
The uncertainty regarding what had
happened to Joana provided an ongoing dramatic series of news reporting. Forensic science and
DNA technology received considerable attention in the news coverage, particularly in the
Correio da Manhã, as several news articles voiced high expectations towards the results of theanalysis made to the allegedly large number of stains collected in the crime scene. Nevertheless,
it was not possible to match any of the stains to Joana. In an editorial article of 12 November
2005, it is said that: “Only science, CSI style, could have provided the decisive contribution. (...)
I’m convinced that Leonor and João Cipriano are guilty. But what the heck… Couldn’t they have
managed any tiny piece of evidence that would leave me with a clear conscience? (Catarino,
2005).
They were accused of having murdered the girl, cut her
body into pieces and disposed of it. However, no body, weapon, cutting tools or conclusive
material evidence was ever found.
So there you have it from an independent Portuguese source...no conclusive material evidence was ever found...non of the blood samples matched Joanna... This must be potentially a miscarriage of justice
-
I found this analysis of the case written as a PHD project at a Portuguese university...this in an excerpt...
The uncertainty regarding what had
happened to Joana provided an ongoing dramatic series of news reporting. Forensic science and
DNA technology received considerable attention in the news coverage, particularly in the
Correio da Manhã, as several news articles voiced high expectations towards the results of theanalysis made to the allegedly large number of stains collected in the crime scene. Nevertheless,
it was not possible to match any of the stains to Joana. In an editorial article of 12 November
2005, it is said that: “Only science, CSI style, could have provided the decisive contribution. (...)
I’m convinced that Leonor and João Cipriano are guilty. But what the heck… Couldn’t they have
managed any tiny piece of evidence that would leave me with a clear conscience? (Catarino,
2005).
They were accused of having murdered the girl, cut her
body into pieces and disposed of it. However, no body, weapon, cutting tools or conclusive
material evidence was ever found.
So there you have it from an independent Portuguese source...no conclusive material evidence was ever found...non of the blood samples matched Joanna... This must be potentially a miscarriage of justice
Where did you find this? I haven't checked yet, but is it from Helena Machado's research?
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf
ETA: It's an interesting analysis of the media and the assumptions forming public opinion.
In case anyone's interested.
-
Where did you find this? I haven't checked yet, but is it from Helena Machado's research?
http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf
ETA: It's an interesting analysis of the media and the assumptions forming public opinion.
In case anyone's interested.
I think it blows apart the myth we are told that the conviction is safe...the conviction appears very unsafe
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/25449/1/Santos%20Filipe%20-%20The%20Dissemination%20and%20Popularisation%20of%20Surveillance.pdf
-
I think it blows apart the myth we are told that the conviction is safe...the conviction appears very unsafe
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/25449/1/Santos%20Filipe%20-%20The%20Dissemination%20and%20Popularisation%20of%20Surveillance.pdf
Thanks for that... Have a read of the Machado one if you get time.
-
So a load of articles/papers prove the ciprianos are innocent? hardly.
-
I think it blows apart the myth we are told that the conviction is safe...the conviction appears very unsafe
http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bitstream/1822/25449/1/Santos%20Filipe%20-%20The%20Dissemination%20and%20Popularisation%20of%20Surveillance.pdf
Third party theories mean absolutely nothing when the woman herself has admitted on several occasions that she and brother João are culpable. But you go on believing those who don't know if it makes you happy.
-
Third party theories mean absolutely nothing when the woman herself has admitted on several occasions that she and brother João are culpable. But you go on believing those who don't know if it makes you happy.
im going on the evidence...thats the most important thing....and you have to admit, as this paper says..there is no real evidence
-
So a load of articles/papers prove the ciprianos are innocent? hardly.
it proves theres no real evidence
-
So a load of articles/papers prove the ciprianos are innocent? hardly.
is there anything in that quote that is incorrect...there isn't...it really looks like a possible miscarriage of justice
-
It is necessary in law to prove that someone did something Without Reasonable Doubt. The doubts in this case are manifold. And there was No Evidence.
Confessions are not acceptable in Portugal unless repeated in Court, which they were not.
Whether or not one or both of them did it is irrelevant. They should never have been convicted.
-
im going on the evidence...thats the most important thing....and you have to admit, as this paper says..there is no real evidence
The confession by João and the admission by Leonor herself in January 2009 are good enough for me. After all, they are the only people who know the truth. The village folk might have their own thoughts but that's all they are, thoughts.
Leonor has had a long time to consider her position and decided to come clean, hopefully João will do the same one day and reveal where Joana really is.
-
It is necessary in law to prove that someone did something Without Reasonable Doubt. The doubts in this case are manifold. And there was No Evidence.
Confessions are not acceptable in Portugal unless repeated in Court, which they were not.
Whether or not one or both of them did it is irrelevant. They should never have been convicted.
Please stop posting erroneous information Eleanor.
Fact: The judges allowed the prosecution to play João's tape recorded confession at the trial. The jury thus heard his confession, they made the decision to convict and it is not for you to undermine that decision since you weren't there.
-
It is necessary in law to prove that someone did something Without Reasonable Doubt. The doubts in this case are manifold. And there was No Evidence.
Confessions are not acceptable in Portugal unless repeated in Court, which they were not.
Whether or not one or both of them did it is irrelevant. They should never have been convicted.
Haven't you learned anything yet? Leonor has spoken through the medium of her lawyer and made a signed deposition. She admits the girl was killed after a failed attempt to sell her. Evidence is not an issue in this case any more Eleanor.
-
The confession by João and the admission by Leonor herself in January 2009 are good enough for me. After all, they are the only people who know the truth. The village folk might have their own thoughts but that's all they are, thoughts.
Leonor has had a long time to consider her position and decided to come clean, hopefully João will do the same one day and reveal where Joana really is.
If either knew where she was, a body would presumably have been found by now. There are cases in which people have buried a body and couldn't find them... but I haven't found anything credible in this case that they had the faintest idea aside from "leads" generated via "robust" questioning.
-
Please stop posting erroneous information Eleanor.
Fact: The judges allowed the prosecution to play João's tape recorded confession at the trial. The jury thus heard his confession, they made the decision to convict and it is not for you to undermine that decision since you weren't there.
According to Montclair confessions in court are not admissible. Or is she mistaken? Both defendants pleaded not guilty. So what is erroneous about my post?
Go and pick on someone else. There are enough of them posting really erroneous information.
-
Haven't you learned anything yet? Leonor has spoken through the medium of her lawyer and made a signed deposition. She admits the girl was killed after a failed attempt to sell her. Evidence is not an issue in this case any more Eleanor.
Some people would be unconvinced even if she went on the Algarve evening news and confessed it all.
-
Some people would be unconvinced even if she went on the Algarve evening news and confessed it all.
If I'd found anything credible that this child died, I would have accepted it. So far, I haven't. Let alone anything to substantiate the bizarre prosecution hypothesis.
-
It is necessary in law to prove that someone did something Without Reasonable Doubt. The doubts in this case are manifold. And there was No Evidence.
Confessions are not acceptable in Portugal unless repeated in Court, which they were not.
Whether or not one or both of them did it is irrelevant. They should never have been convicted.
The original confession on film was by Joao Not Leonora. The second Statement by Joao and Leonora were not accepted in the 2009 appeal... therefore the only standing confession is Joaos reconstruction film, because in 2009 appeal, Joao denied in court, writing and signing the document, however Leonor's remains on file and it is nothing new, It has been on here many times and many must have seen it...IMO t was a ploy by...... to shorten the sentence
Ps I forgot to add that this appeal with the confessions, which Joao denied writing ,was thrown out of court/Denied because of trickery used by the lawyer
-
If either knew where she was, a body would presumably have been found by now. There are cases in which people have buried a body and couldn't find them... but I haven't found anything credible in this case that they had the faintest idea aside from "leads" generated via "robust" questioning.
According to Leonor's latest version of events and notably, her confession, she claims it was her brother who disposed of the remains. The question is, how could she be sure what happened since she is merely advancing a scenario advanced by her brother. Unfortunately for Leonor, unless she was present when Joana was killed or disposed of her testimony is hearsay.
-
According to Montclair confessions in court are not admissible. Or is she mistaken? Both defendants pleaded not guilty. So what is erroneous about my post?
Go and pick on someone else. There are enough of them posting really erroneous information.
Confessions in court are most certainly admissible Eleanor, anything a defendant says is admissible.
Are you not just a little bit confused since it is confessions made outside court which are not normally admissible UNLESS the judges say they are...as happened in this case.
-
Haven't you learned anything yet? Leonor has spoken through the medium of her lawyer and made a signed deposition. She admits the girl was killed after a failed attempt to sell her. Evidence is not an issue in this case any more Eleanor.
So what EXACTLY does the signed deposition say...because thats not what john reported
-
Confessions in court are most certainly admissible Eleanor, anything a defendant says is admissible.
Are you not just a little bit confused since it is confessions made outside court which are not normally admissible UNLESS the judges say they are...as happened in this case.
Which confessions were deemed admissible during the murder trial?
-
Haven't you learned anything yet? Leonor has spoken through the medium of her lawyer and made a signed deposition. She admits the girl was killed after a failed attempt to sell her. Evidence is not an issue in this case any more Eleanor.
So why was there a Trial? And why did they plead Not Guilty. Why was the Confession played in Court? And why was she beaten so badly over a large number of hours?
Where exactly was Amaral while this was going on? Or was he just having lunch?
Is anyone who doesn't agree with you and Admin, allowed to have an opinion?
I thought this Forum dealt with Miscarriages of Justice. Is there any case apart from John's that is actually considered to be a Miscarriage of Justice?
-
Confessions in court are most certainly admissible Eleanor, anything a defendant says is admissible.
Are you not just a little bit confused since it is confessions made outside court which are not normally admissible UNLESS the judges say they are...as happened in this case.
Exactly. So why did the Judge decide that it was admissible when they both pleaded Not Guilty.?
-
Exactly. So why did the Judge decide that it was admissible when they both pleaded Not Guilty.?
Because the filthy ...moderated ... 'did it' perhaps.
-
So what EXACTLY does the signed deposition say...because thats not what john reported
As you can see the confessions were illegal
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/leonor-ciprianos-lawyer-confesses-to.html
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/10/leonor-ciprianos-lawyer-confesses-to.html
-
Because the filthy ... moderated ... 'did it' perhaps.
So The Judge decided beforehand that they had done it, and then decided to help the prosecution along a bit? That sounds like a distinct possibility.
PS. Have you read The Devil's Advocate? He was very much better at it than you are. You might be able to pick up a few tips.
-
So The Judge decided beforehand that they had done it, and then decided to help the prosecution along a bit? That sounds like a distinct possibility.
PS. Have you read The Devil's Advocate? He was very much better at it than you are. You might be able to pick up a few tips.
Sorry Eleanor, but I found this so funny and I haven't laughed like this in year @)(++(*
-
Which confessions were deemed admissible during the murder trial?
João's taped confession obviously.
-
Sorry Eleanor, but I found this so funny and I haven't laughed like this in year @)(++(*
Thank you, Anna. WonderfulSpam isn't half the bad character that he pretends to be. But I have got him sussed now.
-
So why was there a Trial? And why did they plead Not Guilty. Why was the Confession played in Court? And why was she beaten so badly over a large number of hours?
Where exactly was Amaral while this was going on? Or was he just having lunch?
Is anyone who doesn't agree with you and Admin, allowed to have an opinion?
I thought this Forum dealt with Miscarriages of Justice. Is there any case apart from John's that is actually considered to be a Miscarriage of Justice?
You best ask Leonor those questions Eleanor since she is the one who confessed initially, subsequently pled not guilty, refused to testify and then signed a deposition blaming her brother. Were those really the actions of an innocent mother?
-
Thank you, Anna. WonderfulSpam isn't half the bad character that he pretends to be. But I have got him sussed now.
I rather like him too. He's so funny at times
-
Exactly. So why did the Judge decide that it was admissible when they both pleaded Not Guilty.?
They could have pled anything they liked Eleanor. Maybe Leonor is innocent of the murder and only said what she did thinking it would help João. Maybe João is the monster in all of this after all and killed the girl. Maybe Leonor is guilty of nothing more than being a gullible accessory after the fact. Only she and João know!
-
As you can see the confessions were illegal
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/05/leonor-ciprianos-lawyer-confesses-to.html
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/10/leonor-ciprianos-lawyer-confesses-to.html
That was five years after the trial. The original taped confession was allowed by the original trial judges.
-
João's taped confession obviously.
Do you mean the "reconstruction" or something else?
-
According to Leonor's latest version of events and notably, her confession, she claims it was her brother who disposed of the remains. The question is, how could she be sure what happened since she is merely advancing a scenario advanced by her brother. Unfortunately for Leonor, unless she was present when Joana was killed or disposed of her testimony is hearsay.
you and others keep talking about the latest deposition and actually saying different things..have you actually seen it or are your posts hearsay
-
That was five years after the trial. The original taped confession was allowed by to original trial judges.
I was referring to the so called confessions of selling the child and Joao killing her in their request for appeal 2009... As the links indicate
-
you and others keep talking about the latest deposition and actually saying different things..have you actually seen it or are your posts hearsay
I have got them on the appeal request, but they are also on Joane marais I will try and link them
-
You best ask Leonor those questions Eleanor since she is the one who confessed initially, subsequently pled not guilty, refused to testify and then signed a deposition blaming her brother. Were those really the actions of an innocent mother?
I am still not sure that this is true, John. I have so far not seen any evidence to support what you say.
-
They could have pled anything they liked Eleanor. Maybe Leonor is innocent of the murder and only said what she did thinking it would help João. Maybe João is the monster in all of this after all and killed the girl. Maybe Leonor is guilty of nothing more than being a gullible accessory after the fact. Only she and João know!
Wow. Thank you.
-
I am still not sure that this is true, John. I have so far not seen any evidence to support what you say.
Which part of confessed initially, subsequently pled not guilty, refused to testify and then signed a deposition blaming her brother don't you believe Eleanor?
-
Which part of confessed initially, subsequently pled not guilty, refused to testify and then signed a deposition blaming her brother don't you believe Eleanor?
None of it, until I see an official source.
-
you and others keep talking about the latest deposition and actually saying different things..have you actually seen it or are your posts hearsay
The statements appear to have been removed....I wonder why ?
However they are inadmissible in court as the request for review was thrown out because of inconsistencies with her lawyer behaviour and The Cipriano's lawyer was sent out of the court when he arrived to defend at the pj trial.
The statements basically said that Joao had taken the girl to sell and ended up killing her. He said that Leonor knew about it, but then he changed his mind and denied it. When I can get into my storage computer I will send you a link to the whole process
-
Which part of confessed initially, subsequently pled not guilty, refused to testify and then signed a deposition blaming her brother don't you believe Eleanor?
You were saying a few months ago there was lots of evidence ..when in effect there is none
-
Is the taped confession of Joao the only tape in existence? If the PJ had the facilities to tape the interview where he confessed - then why didn't they use those same faciliites to tape all of the interviews of both LC and her brother?
-
Is the taped confession of Joao the only tape in existence? If the PJ had the facilities to tape the interview where he confessed - then why didn't they use those same faciliites to tape all of the interviews of both LC and her brother?
Very good point. Perhaps they did tape them, and then disappeared them because they didn't come up to scratch.
-
You were saying a few months ago there was lots of evidence ..when in effect there is none
That must be the most stupid comment you have ever written considering a jury found them guilty on that very same evidence which you, not being present at the trial, choose to deny.
-
Is the taped confession of Joao the only tape in existence? If the PJ had the facilities to tape the interview where he confessed - then why didn't they use those same faciliites to tape all of the interviews of both LC and her brother?
I can't think why...
-
I can't think why...
I can.
-
Is the taped confession of Joao the only tape in existence? If the PJ had the facilities to tape the interview where he confessed - then why didn't they use those same faciliites to tape all of the interviews of both LC and her brother?
An article about the MP magistrate's union moaning that the recommendation in the new Penal Process Code (2013) to record an arguido's first interrogation in front of an instruction judge is fine, but they don't have any equipment. This seems to concern the issue that arguidos are expected to tell the truth about any criminal history.
http://www.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.publico.pt%2Fsociedade%2Fnoticia%2Fmagistrados-do-mp-denunciam-falta-de-adaptacao-de-meios-para-ter-registo-criminal-1592770
http://www.publico.pt/sociedade/noticia/magistrados-do-mp-denunciam-falta-de-adaptacao-de-meios-para-ter-registo-criminal-1592770
I haven't checked whether there is any provision in the new PPC recommending CCTV in police stations, let alone audio/video recording of interviews. I somewhat doubt that the old guard PJ would have taken much notice.
I've no doubt that Portugal is moving forward, but effecting change in any institution is a very slow process.
-
So is there any proof of Leonor Cipriano's confession to The Magistrate? I would seriously like to see this if there is any.
-
So is there any proof of Leonor Cipriano's confession to The Magistrate? I would seriously like to see this if there is any.
There's this in which she apparently did.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg103417#msg103417
However, if she'd been made to sign on the dotted line at the PJ, appearing before a magistrate would be a formality. From what I can gather, if indeed she had actually done so, it would have been read out to her and she'd have to have formally acknowledged it (or denied it).
Acknowledging it doesn't mean anything in my view as there's no way of knowing what potential carrots and sticks she'd faced during interrogation in terms of intimidation, threats or a prospect of not being prosecuted for murder if she agreed to an accidental death.
I find it perfectly plausible that she could have falsely confessed to an accidental death with a lesser sentence so that Leandro could continue to look after the kids for a few years and try to find Joana. At the time, the PJ didn't even have to present her with the evidence against her... they could just bluff. The alternative was the prospect of a 25-year sentence.
-
Ah, I see. After several hours of interrogation during which no Lawyer was present. So we have a possible similar situation to that which Kate McCann was subjected. Confess to a lessor crime or we will get you for Murder.
Is there any signed statement by Leonor Cipriano at this point?
-
Ah, I see. After several hours of interrogation during which no Lawyer was present. So we have a possible similar situation to that which Kate McCann was subjected. Confess to a lessor crime or we will get you for Murder.
Is there any signed statement by Leonor Cipriano at this point?
If she hadn't, I don't see how she could have been charged in the first place.
-
If she hadn't, I don't see how she could have been charged in the first place.
I would just like to see the context of the confession. No chance of seeing the preceding interview, I don't suppose.
So why the need to beat her so badly after she had confessed?
The whole thing stinks.
-
I would just like to see the context of the confession. No chance of seeing the proceeding interview, I don't suppose.
So why the need to beat her so badly after she had confessed?
The whole thing stinks.
Did the PJ assume that simply presenting an accidental death statement would be sufficient to present to the magistrate and close the investigation? After a so-called admission to an accidental death, the next obvious question is what happened to the body...
-
There's this in which she apparently did.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg103417#msg103417
However, if she'd been made to sign on the dotted line at the PJ, appearing before a magistrate would be a formality. From what I can gather, if indeed she had actually done so, it would have been read out to her and she'd have to have formally acknowledged it (or denied it).
Acknowledging it doesn't mean anything in my view as there's no way of knowing what potential carrots and sticks she'd faced during interrogation in terms of intimidation, threats or a prospect of not being prosecuted for murder if she agreed to an accidental death.
I find it perfectly plausible that she could have falsely confessed to an accidental death with a lesser sentence so that Leandro could continue to look after the kids for a few years and try to find Joana. At the time, the PJ didn't even have to present her with the evidence against her... they could just bluff. The alternative was the prospect of a 25-year sentence.
I have no trouble at all in believing that is what happened Carana. The PJ tried the same with Kate McCann IMO.
-
I have no trouble at all in believing that is what happened Carana. The PJ tried the same with Kate McCann IMO.
Yep. The PJ offered Kate a lesser sentence for a confession of Accidental Death, so why not Leonor Cipriano?
The similarities are getting almost boring.
And perleeze someone don't tell me deals are not allowed. We've already done that one to death.
-
I would just like to see the context of the confession. No chance of seeing the preceding interview, I don't suppose.
So why the need to beat her so badly after she had confessed?
The whole thing stinks.
For the umpteenth time they were attempting to ascertain where the poor child lay.
-
For the umpteenth time they were attempting to ascertain where the poor child lay.
So they beat her half senseless for nearly two days, and still didn't find out. Come on, John, even you can't believe that.
They had their confession, apparently. And IF Joana had been fed to the pigs as The PJ seem to believe, what exactly did they expect to find?
-
So they beat her half senseless for nearly two days, and still didn't find out. Come on, John, even you can't believe that.
They had their confession, apparently. And IF Joana had been fed to the pigs as The PJ seem to believe, what exactly did they expect to find?
If you take the time to read the initial confession by João and Leonor before judge Ana Soares you will learn that João said he buried the girl.
-
If you take the time to read the initial confession by João and Leonor before judge Ana Soares you will learn that João said he buried the girl.
What does Leonor say? And why was Jaoa unable to locate the body not very long after? Who thought up The Pig Pen Theory?
-
What does Leonor say? And why was Jaoa unable to locate the body not very long after? Who thought up The Pig Pen Theory?
Its all there in the article Carana posted for you Eleanor. Jeeeeez
-
Its all there in the article Carana posted for you Eleanor. Jeeeeez
Ambiguous. You may take it as Gospel According to Guilt, but I don't.
And if you are finding my questioning so tedious why don't you just close my account.
-
For the umpteenth time they were attempting to ascertain where the poor child lay.
Don't you find it strange John that neither of them could say where the body was? The only credible reason IMO is that they simply did not know - because she had been abducted. Why go through terrible torture AFTER confessing - that makes no sense at all to me. What did they have to gain that was worth being beaten half to death for once they had confessed she was dead ? One would think that once confessions had been made - full co-operation with the PJ would have been far more to their advantage.
If Joana was abducted - then all the torture in the world wouldn't change the fact that it would be impossible for them say where the body was - simply because no body existed for them to dispose of.
I'm sure lots of 'suggestions' were put forward by the PJ as to where the body was - and were all agreed to at the time, just to stop the pain.
-
What does Leonor say? And why was Jaoa unable to locate the body not very long after? Who thought up The Pig Pen Theory?
The same people who thought up the Incest motive imo. . The motive that was thrown out by the court.
-
Don't you find it strange John that neither of them could say where the body was? The only credible reason IMO is that they simply did not know - because she had been abducted. Why go through terrible torture AFTER confessing - that makes no sense at all to me. What did they have to gain that was worth being beaten half to death for once they had confessed she was dead ? One would think that once confessions had been made - full co-operation with the PJ would have been far more to their advantage.
If Joana was abducted - then all the torture in the world wouldn't change the fact that it would be impossible for them say where the body was - simply because no body existed for them to dispose of.
I'm sure lots of 'suggestions' were put forward by the PJ as to where the body was - and were all agreed to at the time, just to stop the pain.
This seems to be too difficult for John and Angelo to understand.
-
This seems to be too difficult for John and Angelo to understand.
You really don't get it do you. Leonor initially freely confessed to having slapped Joana but she hit her head on the wall and died. Enter a smart lawyer who convinced her to plead not guilty and say nothing.
Joao Cipriano admitted hiding the body but claimed he couldn't find the exact spot because it was dark.
And as we all know Leonor later attempted to blame Joao when she claimed he had taken the girl and tried to sell her to some Germans. No wonder she was prosecuted for perjury, she has a new story every time she goes to court.
-
You really don't get it do you. Leonor initially freely confessed to having slapped Joana but she hit her head on the wall and died. Enter a smart lawyer who convinced her to plead not guilty and say nothing.
And you really don't get that a section of The PJ have a documented record for abuse and dirty tricks.
You simply don't know if she freely confessed without any coercion at all. So stop treating me like a fool because I don't agree with you.
It comes to something when I can expect more verbal abuse from a moderator on a Miscarriage of Justice Forum than I get from common and garden posters.
PS. Do you actually have any Miscarriages of Justice that you support?
-
You really don't get it do you. Leonor initially freely confessed to having slapped Joana but she hit her head on the wall and died. Enter a smart lawyer who convinced her to plead not guilty and say nothing.
Joao Cipriano admitted hiding the body but claimed he couldn't find the exact spot because it was dark.
And as we all know Leonor later attempted to blame Joao when she claimed he had taken the girl and tried to sell her to some Germans. No wonder she was prosecuted for perjury, she has a new story every time she goes to court.
So why did LC slap her daughter? What reason did she give in her confession for doing that?
IIRC According to her 'husband' she never hit her children.
Are you saying that Joao couldn't even remember approximately where he hid the body? Pull the other one Angelo? How could you forget something like that? This is a man who apparently had butchered a child's body. Disposing of it would be a walk in the park after that.
It seems to me that her original lawyer was a complete waste of time in court. And wasn't he a friend of Amaral's? That was from memory so I'm happy to be corrected.
-
So why did LC slap her daughter? What reason did she give in her confession for doing that?
IIRC According to her 'husband' she never hit her children.
Are you saying that Joao couldn't even remember approximately where he hid the body? Pull the other one Angelo? How could you forget something like that? This is a man who apparently had butchered a child's body. Disposing of it would be a walk in the park after that.
It seems to me that her original lawyer was a complete waste of time in court. And wasn't he a friend of Amaral's? That was from memory so I'm happy to be corrected.
Leonor supposedly slapped Joana because she caught her mother in an act of incest. This was thrown out by The Court. Hence The Motive was down the Swanee.
Yep. Leonor's Lawyer was and still is a friend of Amaral. Caught taking drugs into the prison, but never charged.
What an unholy mess.
-
Leonor supposedly slapped Joana because she caught her mother in an act of incest. This was thrown out by The Court. Hence The Motive was down the Swanee.
Yep. Leonor's Lawyer was and still is a friend of Amaral. Caught taking drugs into the prison, but never charged.
What an unholy mess.
So having apparently 'voluntarily' revealed a motive for murder that would appall and totally disgust everyone in Portugal - ensuring that her goose was well and truly cooked anyway - LC then decided for some inexplicable reason not to reveal the far lesser crime of where the body was - even when she was beaten half to death. Why? There simply is no logic to that.
IMO that 'motive', which the court threw out, came straight from the PJ and was designed to whip up so much hatred and animosity via the press in the general public's mind - right from the start - that they would be so incensed they would happily turn a blind eye to the fact that there was no actual evidence against her.
That approach certainly seemed to work with the jury members The court could find no motive and there was no forensic evidence. But still she was found guilty? How does that work?
IMO It's impossible to ignore the fact that the same approach was used in the McCann case by that 'person' who went on TV at the very beginning and announced as a confirmed fact - that the McCanns were 'swingers' - or as some members of the watching public would perceive them to be - grossly sexually immoral foreigners. And thus the same vile smear campaign against yet another grieving mother began imo.
-
So why did LC slap her daughter? What reason did she give in her confession for doing that?
IIRC According to her 'husband' she never hit her children.
Are you saying that Joao couldn't even remember approximately where he hid the body? Pull the other one Angelo? How could you forget something like that? This is a man who apparently had butchered a child's body. Disposing of it would be a walk in the park after that.
It seems to me that her original lawyer was a complete waste of time in court. And wasn't he a friend of Amaral's? That was from memory so I'm happy to be corrected.
Those are questions for Leonor and Joao Cipriano. Everyone bleats about them being beaten into a confession by the Portuguese police but the truth is somewhat different. Leonor wasn't beaten when she made her signed deposition for the court in 2010 in which she spoke of wanting to come clean...better late than never I think her lawyer added for her. She insists that it was her brother Joao who abducted the girl in another of his mad money making schemes but it went wrong, the deal fell through and the girl for whatever reason ended up dead. You can believe her or disbelieve her but you can't have it both ways.
If she is telling the truth you have all been taken for mugs. If she is still lying you are again being taken for mugs. Can't you see you are in a no win situation?
-
Those are questions for Leonor and Joao Cipriano. Everyone bleats about them being beaten into a confession by the Portuguese police but the truth is somewhat different. Leonor wasn't beaten when she made her signed deposition for the court in 2001 in which she spoke of wanting to come clean...better late than never I think her lawyer added for her. She insists that it was her brother Joao who abducted the girl in another of his mad money making schemes but it went wrong, the deal fell through and the girl for whatever reason ended up dead. You can believe her or disbelieve her but you can't have it both ways.
If she is telling the truth you have all been taken for mugs. If she is still lying you are again being taken for mugs. Can't you see you are in a no win situation?
You don't mean 2001, do you? She hadn't even disappeared then. If you mean the torture trial, she apparently hadn't excluded the possibility that João might have tried to sell her (way back, according to Leandro), but as one of several. Personally, I doubt it. She may well have been encouraged in that direction by others in a bid to simply get out of jail - there was nothing left to lose at that point. If that's the case, whoever encouraged her was misguided, to say the least, in my opinion.
-
Sorry, that should have been 2010. My tablet is playing up and appears to have its own view sometimes! @)(++(*
I don't know about getting out of jail but it could have been an attempt to play the sympathy card. A little trick which most of you have apparently fallen for.
She doesn't want to come out of jail a child killer for obvious reasons but playing the victim always goes down well.