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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: Carana on November 20, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
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Who is he? A "stepfather"? A half-brother? A lodger?
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Who is he? A "stepfather"? A half-brother? A lodger?
The McCann Files website has got this information wrong which might explain the confusion. I have checked the original Portuguese Court document and Leandro Silva is referred to as II while his unnamed friend is given the identifier MM.
www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
I am compiling a list of facts in the case at the moment and if I come across the identity of MM I will post it on this thread.
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MM is described as Leandro Silva's friend.
Yes, but I find it confusing.
In the summary of the case that you'd posted (and I'd also remembered this from press reports):
The prosecution claimed that Joana was killed because she saw her mother and João Cipriano, her mother's brother, having incestuous sex, in accordance with the testimony of the stepfather of Leandro Silva, the common-law husband of Leonor Cipriano. [/u]
However...
In the Supreme Court doc, the "stepfather" is called MM.
A testemunha MM, padrasto do II... he would seem to be the "stepfather" to whom João had confessed at the PJ HQ.
But then, the same document refers to the stepfather as DD1:
11. 3. 5. Depoimento indirecto
Duas testemunhas - o companheiro da recorrente, II, e o padrasto deste, DD1
but I can't find a witness statement from any DD1.
Elsewhere in the same SC document, MM is described as a "friend".
ag) e, como sabiam que o companheiro da arguida BB - II - e o amigo deste, MM. And he's the guy that Leandro had gone out for a drink with that evening and who helped in the search.
In the same ruling, MM apparently lived with the family:
A testemunha MM, que à data viva em casa da BB e do II
According to a document related to the torture trial, the name of the man living with the family is Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva.
In an article by Algarve Resident, Carlos Alberto is Leandro's half-brother:
Assistant Prosecutor, José Carlos Pinheiro, has arranged for several key prosecution witnesses to be summoned to court. These include António Leandro (stepfather of Joana), his mother Lurdes David, half-brother Carlos Alberto, Anabela Cipriano and Anatólio Duarte (sister and brother-in-law of Leonor and João Cipriano) and Nelson Cipriano, the defendants’ brother.
According to an article in CdaM, Carlos Pinto (a mechanic) was made arguido on 22 Sept on suspicion of having assisted in concealing the body:
Dia 22 - O mecânico Carlos Pinto é constituído arguido, por suspeitas de participação na ocultação do cadáver.
From various documents, he seems to be scrapyard man.
And unidentified blood was found on MM's trainers found between two sofas:
num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde
(whether there was actually any blood or not isn't clear).
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The McCann Files website has got this information wrong which might explain the confusion. I have checked the original Portuguese Court document and Leandro Silva is referred to as II while his unnamed friend is given the identifier MM.
www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
I am compiling a list of facts in the case at the moment and if I come across the identity of MM I will post it on this thread.
I hit submit before seeing your comment... but it's still confusing.
PS: I was trying to work this out from the original (same link as yours).
ETA: Actually, no, I think that we've been consulting different documents.
Or are we?
Yours is:
06P363
Nº Convencional: JSTJ000
Relator: RODRIGUES DA COSTA
Descritores: HOMICÍDIO
OCULTAÇÃO DE CADÁVER
PROFANAÇÃO DE CADÁVER
JÚRI
DOCUMENTAÇÃO DA PROVA
VÍCIOS
FUNDAMENTAÇÃO
RECONSTITUIÇÃO NATURAL
DOLO EVENTUAL
MEDIDA DA PENA
Nº do Documento: SJ200604200003635
Data do Acordão: 20/04/2006
Votação: MAIORIA COM 1 DEC VOT E 1 VOT VENC
Texto Integral: S
Privacidade: 1
Meio Processual: REVISTA.
www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
The one I was reading through is
06P363
Nº Convencional: JSTJ000
Relator: RODRIGUES DA COSTA
Descritores: HOMICÍDIO
OCULTAÇÃO DE CADÁVER
PROFANAÇÃO DE CADÁVER
JÚRI
DOCUMENTAÇÃO DA PROVA
VÍCIOS
FUNDAMENTAÇÃO
RECONSTITUIÇÃO NATURAL
DOLO EVENTUAL
MEDIDA DA PENA
Nº do Documento: SJ200604200003635
Data do Acordão: 20/04/2006
Votação: MAIORIA COM 1 DEC VOT E 1 VOT VENC
Texto Integral: S
Privacidade: 1
Meio Processual: REVISTA.
Decisão: CONCEDIDA PARCIALMENTE A REVISTA.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
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Check your pm.....might help unravel some of this, but leaving it to you as its given me a migraine....
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Arghhh. Are we trying to check different versions of the same document?
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I love playing spot the difference, but couldnt find one here.....they are identical, did you have a different link but posted identical ones?
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No, ok, these seem to be the same. Cancel that. 8()-000(
I think I've worked out who most people are (at least in relation to each other), but I'm still stuck on this MM person.
I still don't think that "MM", as referred to, can all be the same person.
He's referred to as Leandro's stepfather and as a "friend" lodging with them in the same document. I had wondered if the stepfather was lodging with them for unknown reasons (the couple had split up, or he needed to lodge with them for work reasons, or whatever), but that doesn't seem to be the case.
For the moment, I'll call MM (stepfather) MM1 and the lodger (friend or whatever) MM2.
Paraphrasing:
A testemunha MM, padrasto do II, disse que a CC tinha estado em casa da testemunha no dia em que desapareceu, pois tinha havido uma festa de aniversário.
MM1 states that Joana had been at his home on the day she'd disappeared as there was a birthday party. That would seem to correspond to other witness statements stating that she'd stayed at Leandro's mother's house (i.e., with her step-grandmother). Ok, maybe that could correspond if he still lived with Leandro's mother, but had to lodge elsewhere during the week.
Mais tarde, por volta da meia-noite, o telefone tocou e a mulher disse-lhe que era a BB a perguntar pela CC porque ela tinha desaparecido.
Then, he states that he got a call at around midnight from a woman saying that it was Leonor asking about Joana as she'd disappeared. It's not clear if it was actually Leonor on the phone or the Café lady ringing on her behalf if her phone was dead. Anyway, it seems as if he was home with Leandro's mother.
But MM2 seems to be the lodger who had gone for a drink with Leandro and was out searching for Joana that night.
How does that work?
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From all I have read there were two stepfathers
Leandro Silva, witness II, stepfather to Joana
Carlos Alberto Silva, witness DD1, stepfather to Leandro and to his half brother Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva, ie MM, the lodger/mechanic who lived with Leandro and Leonor for three months
I put my bet on some typo/error or misreading of the text, MMs and DD1s names being so similar
Occams razor, I dont see why it should be more complicated than that
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From all I have read there were two stepfathers
Leandro Silva, witness II, stepfather to Joana
Carlos Alberto Silva, witness DD1, stepfather to Leandro and to his half brother Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva, ie MM, the lodger/mechanic who lived with Leandro and Leonor for three months
I put my bet on some typo/error or misreading of the text, MMs and DD1s names being so similar
Occams razor, I dont see why it should be more complicated than that
Yes, I think there must be some mistake in the Supreme Court document in trying to substitute real names by letters. The problem is that when it mentions MM, it's hard to work out which person it is (assuming that they are indeed different people).
What bothers me is not a simple typo, but the fact that MM might be two different people who were in different places, doing different things.
Alternatively, there might be a mistake in the lodger's name in this submission (although I doubt it), in which he states that his name is Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva:
"Declaração
Eu abaixo assinado Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva, residente em Lagoa, Rua Alfredo Keil, nº 12, 8400 Lagoa, declaro pela minha honra que vivi com a menina desaparecida Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro, na mesma casa com a mãe Leonor e o padrasto Leandro na Figueira, mais ou menos 3 meses e nunca vi a mãe Leonor a bater em nenhum dos filhos, pois quando queria aplicar um castigo era sempre algum que nunca passasse por agressão. Também declaro que a mãe Leonor era uma pessoa calma e incapaz de se tornar violenta seja pelo que fosse. Assim acredito na declaração de inocência da Mãe Leonor.
Lagoa 5 de Junho 2009
Carlos Alberto Pinto da Silva".
http://www.asmeninasquevieramdasestrelas.com/juridica.html
Checking elsewhere, I found this:
Por outro lado, soube-se agora que, afinal, o número de arguidos sujeitos ao termo de identidade e residência - na sua maioria suspeitos de envolvimento na ocultação do cadáver -, era maior do que aquele que foi chegando a público. A Leandro Silva, à sua mãe, Maria de Lurdes David, a Carlos Alberto Silva, filho desta, e a Carlos Pinto, ex-mecânico da sucateira na qual trabalha a família adoptiva da menina, juntaram-se Nelson Cipriano, a sua irmã Anabela e Anatólio Duarte, marido desta. Contudo, todos acabaram por ser ilibados do processo, que conta apenas com dois arguidos: Leonor e João Cipriano.
http://www.dn.pt/especiais/interior.aspx?content_id=1006701&especial=Caso%20Joana&seccao=SOCIEDADE&page=1
According to that, Carlos Alberto Silva is Leandro's mother's son, which - if he's not Leandro's full brother - might mean that the lodger was his half-brother (even though the SC document describes the lodger as a "friend"), and Carlos Pinto might be Leandro's stepfather.
There were an awful lot of arguidos in this case, even if only two eventually got charged...
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No, sorry Carana youre complicating it all...Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva was NOT any stepfather, he was MM, Leandros half brother, the mechanic lodger, and yes he was Leandros mothers son LOL ie his brother.....Carlos Alberto Silva DD1 was the stepfather to both......
Weve gotten so far from the point maybe we will get there in 2095 at this rate.....
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No, sorry Carana youre complicating it all...Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva was NOT any stepfather, he was MM, Leandros half brother, the mechanic lodger, and yes he was Leandros mothers son LOL ie his brother.....Carlos Alberto Silva DD1 was the stepfather to both......
Weve gotten so far from the point maybe we will get there in 2095 at this rate.....
We're getting there... @)(++(*
I was saying that Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva seems to be the lodger (and possibly a half-brother), which is what you seem to be saying as well. Do we agree on that?
If so, is he the "MM" person who went out that night with Leandro to help search for her in the village?
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We're getting there... @)(++(*
I was saying that Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva seems to be the lodger (and possibly a half-brother), which is what you seem to be saying as well. Do we agree on that?
If so, is he the "MM" person who went out that night with Leandro to help search for her in the village?
Yes that much is obvious...but he aint no stepfather
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We're getting there... @)(++(*
I was saying that Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva seems to be the lodger (and possibly a half-brother), which is what you seem to be saying as well. Do we agree on that?
If so, is he the "MM" person who went out that night with Leandro to help search for her in the village?
If they were searching that night then they must have been to the house...so did THEY see all the blood or did they see the pigs being fed
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No, sorry Carana youre complicating it all...Carlos Pinto Alberto Silva was NOT any stepfather, he was MM, Leandros half brother, the mechanic lodger, and yes he was Leandros mothers son LOL ie his brother.....Carlos Alberto Silva DD1 was the stepfather to both......
Weve gotten so far from the point maybe we will get there in 2095 at this rate.....
Hang on... it seems to be the other way around.
From the DN article: A Leandro Silva, à sua mãe, Maria de Lurdes David, a Carlos Alberto Silva, filho desta, e a Carlos Pinto, ex-mecânico da sucateira na qual trabalha a família adoptiva da menina
Carlos Alberto Silva is the son/i.e. brother or half-brother, who may well be the MM searching with Leandro that night.
Carlos Pinto is the ex-mechanic at the scrapyard. If he's not the same person as the lodger, he may be the stepfather (although the article doesn't specify the relationship).
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If they were searching that night then they must have been to the house...so did THEY see all the blood or did they see the pigs being fed
Not according to anything I've found.
Whoever "MM" is, João apparently went to fetch them (Leandro and MM) at Café Célia. All three went home, Leonor apparently told them that Joana was missing, then Leandro and MM went out again to search, later joined by Leonor.
No mention of any bloodbath, no mention of the house having suddenly been cleaned, no mention of anyone changing clothes...
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Hang on... it seems to be the other way around.
From the DN article: A Leandro Silva, à sua mãe, Maria de Lurdes David, a Carlos Alberto Silva, filho desta, e a Carlos Pinto, ex-mecânico da sucateira na qual trabalha a família adoptiva da menina
Carlos Alberto Silva is the son/i.e. brother or half-brother, who may well be the MM searching with Leandro that night.
Carlos Pinto is the ex-mechanic at the scrapyard. If he's not the same person as the lodger, he may be the stepfather (although the article doesn't specify the relationship).
No Carana, stop labouring it.....Carlos the mechanic the half brother of Leandro IS the lodger....and not any stepfather who had an almost identical name but is not MM but DD1..I thnk I will bow out now
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No Carana, stop labouring it.....Carlos the mechanic the half brother of Leandro IS the lodger....and not any stepfather who had an almost identical name but is not MM but DD1..I thnk I will bow out now
I'm not labouring any point, I AGREE that it is probably the half-brother who was the lodger, not the stepfather. It would make more sense in the absence of any explanation as to why the stepfather would be lodging with them.
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I'm not labouring any point, I AGREE that it is probably the half-brother who was the lodger, not the stepfather. It would make more sense in the absence of any explanation as to why the stepfather would be lodging with them.
But you were just speculating on your own that leandros stepfather was lodging there with no evidence when the clear evidence said his brother was.....never mind......how does all this help in the joana case? Good night carana, the devil is in the detail sometimes but not this time, see ya later
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But you were just speculating on your own that leandros stepfather was lodging there with no evidence when the clear evidence said his brother was.....never mind......how does all this help in the joana case? Good night carana, the devil is in the detail sometimes but not this time, see ya later
I WASN'T speculating...
WE are actually speculating that there's a mistake in the Supreme Court document LOL
A testemunha MM, padrasto do II, disse que a CC tinha estado em casa da testemunha no dia em que desapareceu, pois tinha havido uma festa de aniversário. Mais tarde, por volta da meia-noite, o telefone tocou e a mulher disse-lhe que era a BB a perguntar pela CC porque ela tinha desaparecido. Às 9h do dia seguinte encontrou a BB com o irmão AA quando ela vinha para Portimão fazer a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Disse que a BB estava triste e que vinha com cara de choro. À tarde desse dia foi a casa da arguida BB que aparentava estar preocupada (no entanto a testemunha disse que achava que ela devia estar mais preocupada) e viu o arguido AA, que estava sentado no sofá. Confirmou que a Polícia Judiciária foi diversas vezes à sucata que a testemunha explora, algumas das quais com o arguido AA, e que andaram a ver os carros. Contou a testemunha que numa altura em que se encontrou com o arguido AA nas instalações da Polícia Judiciária, perguntou-lhe "afinal o que tinha acontecido" e o AA respondeu que "estava a ter relações com a minha irmã" e que "tinham morto a miúda", sendo que então a testemunha já não quis saber mais nada.
A testemunha MM, que à data viva em casa da BB e do II, declarou que o arguido AA chegou a casa destes na madrugada do dia 12 de Setembro. Disse que no dia 12 saiu de casa pelas 9h 30m / 10h e que só regressou pelas 18h, altura em que foi buscar o II para ir com a testemunha ver uma mota. Chegaram à "Pastelaria ..." por volta das 21h 30m / 22h, onde beberam uma cerveja ou duas e depois chegou o arguido AA que lhes perguntou se tinham visto a CC. Dirigiram-se de imediato para casa. A casa não tinha nada estranho, estava normal, a testemunha também não notou qualquer arrumação ou limpeza. A BB disse-lhes que não sabia da CC e o II decidiu ir à festa do berbigão procurá-la, enquanto a testemunha foi dar uma volta pelo outro lado. Tornaram a ir para casa e decidiram ir de novo à festa, desta vez acompanhados da arguida BB, enquanto o AA ficava em casa com as crianças. Demoraram uma hora ou duas e antes de irem para casa foram comprar bolos para comer.
And then there is the issue that MM is referred to as Leandro's friend...
ag) e, como sabiam que o companheiro da arguida BB - II - e o amigo deste, MM,