Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on April 09, 2013, 07:38:38 PM
Title: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on April 09, 2013, 07:38:38 PM
Here we have the dogs inspecting a selection of clothes, shoes and a suitcase. View from 58.03
As the clothes are all packed together in the box there will be cross-contamination from the outset.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: DCI on April 09, 2013, 07:45:00 PM
Here we have the dogs inspecting a selection of clothes, shoes and a suitcase. View from 58.03
As the clothes are all packed together in the box there will be cross-contamination from the outset.
Lets not forget, the clothes had already been laid out once, in a place deemed, not clean, and not acceptable. Amaral had a phone call and was ordered to find a cleaner, better place. Before I get called a liar, Read Amarals own words.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on April 09, 2013, 07:48:51 PM
The biggest mystery about both inspections at the villa and (even more so) following at the gym is that Madeleine never lived in either place.
So why the searches?
Mark Harrison recommended inspections of the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, cars owned or driven by Robert Murat and areas in and around Praia da Luz.
That was it.
Heaven knows where the rest came from ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on April 09, 2013, 08:15:27 PM
As the clothes are all packed together in the box there will be cross-contamination from the outset.
The biggest mystery about both inspections at the villa and (even more so) following at the gym is that Madeleine never lived in either place.
So why the searches?
Mark Harrison recommended inspections of the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, cars owned or driven by Robert Murat and areas in and around Praia da Luz.
That was it.
Heaven knows where the rest came from ...
And Mark Harrison was involved in publicising The Dogs just as Martin Grime was retiring. The money from this exercise went into Martin Grime's Company. As did the money from Jersey. All very sniffy.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on April 09, 2013, 08:23:15 PM
As the clothes are all packed together in the box there will be cross-contamination from the outset.
The biggest mystery about both inspections at the villa and (even more so) following at the gym is that Madeleine never lived in either place.
So why the searches?
Mark Harrison recommended inspections of the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, cars owned or driven by Robert Murat and areas in and around Praia da Luz.
That was it.
Heaven knows where the rest came from ...
And Mark Harrison was involved in publicising The Dogs just as Martin Grime was retiring. The money from this exercise went into Martin Grime's Company. As did the money from Jersey. All very sniffy.
Yep!
It's not clear whether South Yorkshire Police received payment for the deployment of Eddie and Keela to PdL or not.
What is certain is that Eddie never went near an American body farm ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on April 09, 2013, 09:08:41 PM
As the clothes are all packed together in the box there will be cross-contamination from the outset.
The biggest mystery about both inspections at the villa and (even more so) following at the gym is that Madeleine never lived in either place.
So why the searches?
Mark Harrison recommended inspections of the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, cars owned or driven by Robert Murat and areas in and around Praia da Luz.
That was it.
Heaven knows where the rest came from ...
And Mark Harrison was involved in publicising The Dogs just as Martin Grime was retiring. The money from this exercise went into Martin Grime's Company. As did the money from Jersey. All very sniffy.
Yep!
It's not clear whether South Yorkshire Police received payment for the deployment of Eddie and Keela to PdL or not.
What is certain is that Eddie never went near an American body farm ...
Nope, North Yorkshire Police did not receive the money for this deployment. Martin Grime had already retired, taking Eddie and Keela with him. Quite possibly he was still technically employed by The Police since he was on Retirement Leave, but they were far from happy about what he was purporting as fact.
Also The Licence of Competency for Eddie had run out by then.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on April 09, 2013, 09:22:56 PM
Just noticed some funny editing in that video, of Levy's. There are 2 takes of the clothes, one after the other. In the first one the dog does not alert to Kate's trousers, in the second it does. Now we all know Levy is as bent as a nine bob note, but he really should try harder.
There are two different dogs doing the test. The first one is done by Keela who doesn't react while Eddie does the second attempt and does react. Please correct me if this is wrong.
(http://i.imgur.com/4LWROhz.jpg)
Video of the dogs testing the clothing. (http://blip.tv/duarte-levy/vid%C3%A9o-d-eddie-keela-avec-les-v%C3%AAtements-1278993)
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on April 09, 2013, 09:46:43 PM
If anyone has a better video link to the dog tests can they post it please. 8((()*/
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on April 09, 2013, 10:01:50 PM
Just noticed some funny editing in that video, of Levy's. There are 2 takes of the clothes, one after the other. In the first one the dog does not alert to Kate's trousers, in the second it does. Now we all know Levy is as bent as a nine bob note, but he really should try harder.
There are two different dogs doing the test. The first one is done by Keela who doesn't react while Eddie does the second attempt and does react. Please correct me if this is wrong.
(http://i.imgur.com/4LWROhz.jpg)
Video of the dogs testing the clothing. (http://blip.tv/duarte-levy/vid%C3%A9o-d-eddie-keela-avec-les-v%C3%AAtements-1278993)
I think that Eddie is the first one, and Keela is the other one. But Eddie is the manic one. Some Spaniels are manic. Lovely dogs, mind.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on April 09, 2013, 10:04:38 PM
As the clothes are all packed together in the box there will be cross-contamination from the outset.
The biggest mystery about both inspections at the villa and (even more so) following at the gym is that Madeleine never lived in either place.
So why the searches?
Mark Harrison recommended inspections of the holiday apartments, the Murats' place, cars owned or driven by Robert Murat and areas in and around Praia da Luz.
That was it.
Heaven knows where the rest came from ...
And Mark Harrison was involved in publicising The Dogs just as Martin Grime was retiring. The money from this exercise went into Martin Grime's Company. As did the money from Jersey. All very sniffy.
Yep!
It's not clear whether South Yorkshire Police received payment for the deployment of Eddie and Keela to PdL or not.
What is certain is that Eddie never went near an American body farm ...
Nope, North Yorkshire Police did not receive the money for this deployment. Martin Grime had already retired, taking Eddie and Keela with him. Quite possibly he was still technically employed by The Police since he was on Retirement Leave, but they were far from happy about what he was purporting as fact.
Also The Licence of Competency for Eddie had run out by then.
Nope, North Yorkshire Police did not receive the money for this deployment. Martin Grime had already retired, taking Eddie and Keela with him. Quite possibly he was still technically employed by The Police since he was on Retirement Leave, but they were far from happy about what he was purporting as fact.
Eleanor, I've not the slightest reason to doubt what you say (except that it was South Yorkshire Police and the dogs' licences ran out in Jersey); copious reason to suppose you are right.
But do you have verification of that?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: debunker on April 09, 2013, 10:09:28 PM
That is my recollection too. He was charging about £1000 a day.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: DCI on April 09, 2013, 10:35:19 PM
That is my recollection too. He was charging about £1000 a day.
High costs - Mark Harrison stressed the high costs of the dogs. Their daily rate amounted to one thousand euros; the cost of the trip for them and their handlers was of 2750. There was also the cost of the passport for the animals (450 euros), adding to the lodging, the food and the transportation of the vehicles that were necessary for the animals.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on April 09, 2013, 10:59:53 PM
Sorry, Ferryman. North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire? Not sure if this matters as my maternal grandfather was a Lancashire man, and why was Yorkshire ever divided. Who won The War of The Roses? I really ought to look into that, as it might explain why my Yorkshire husband and I never quite got on. Anyway, somedebody's Licence was about to run out.
I sometimes feel really bad about dissing those lovely dogs, but then I know a bit more about dogs than most people do, and there was never a dog who couldn't be coerced. It's that simple.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on April 10, 2013, 02:16:16 PM
Sorry, Ferryman. North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire? Not sure if this matters as my maternal grandfather was a Lancashire man, and why was Yorkshire ever divided. Who won The War of The Roses? I really ought to look into that, as it might explain why my Yorkshire husband and I never quite got on. Anyway, somedebody's Licence was about to run out.
I sometimes feel really bad about dissing those lovely dogs, but then I know a bit more about dogs than most people do, and there was never a dog who couldn't be coerced. It's that simple.
The dogs have a useful purpose in that they can find actual bodies, beyond that I have my doubts as to how effective they really are.
Did everyone see the training exercise video taken while the dogs were on Jersey?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on May 23, 2013, 08:48:08 AM
(including places Harrison had nothing to do with and disowned afterwards)
Ferryman , lol, have you got a link ?
Here is Harrison's summary of the searches:
The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by P
Inspections at the villa and the gym are both summarised (without description) as "PJ exercises"
While Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, he recommended, only, that cars owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.
One of those never made it (a car hired by Murat). 8 Harrison said nothing about did.
Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.
The only searches Harrison owns UK participation in are the ones he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murats' place and areas in and around PdL
That's it.
Can anyone clarify this please. (in red)
Does this mean that the clothing etc was removed from the Villa AFTER the dog search?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 23, 2013, 09:01:17 AM
I just don't believe that he would 'cue' his dogs into falsely alerting in the McCanns villa ... why would he ?
Once again you are confusing intentional cueing with unintentional cueing. No one(to the best of my knowledge) is accusing Grime of deliberately cueing the dogs to alert at the McCanns possession, do you understand this?
As you are discussing the clothing in the gym I want to add this point. I have watched the video over and over several times and I cannot understand why the dog moved the t-shirt and the trousers because he walked straight over them. He did not react to them in any other way other than to move them. Are we supposed to believe that this was some sort of evidence of something because to be honest I find the whole procedure laughable.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 23, 2013, 10:41:15 AM
Does this mean that the clothing etc was removed from the Villa AFTER the dog search?
Yes 100%
The boxes containing the clothing which was laid out in the gym for the dogs had the villa address on the labels.
Yes, and as far as I can tell, there's no sign of items being individually bagged, just all thrown together in boxes. I've never seen such blatant disregard for basic rules regarding handling potential evidence.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on May 23, 2013, 12:03:27 PM
Does this mean that the clothing etc was removed from the Villa AFTER the dog search?
Yes 100%
The boxes containing the clothing which was laid out in the gym for the dogs had the villa address on the labels.
Yes, and as far as I can tell, there's no sign of items being individually bagged, just all thrown together in boxes. I've never seen such blatant disregard for basic rules regarding handling potential evidence.
And not only that, how would you like your garments strewn all over a filthy floor and walked over by a couple of muts after having your eldest child abducted a few weeks earlier? Bloody appalling behaviour in my book. What the hell was Grime thinking of?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Mrs. B on May 23, 2013, 12:18:04 PM
Appalling, yes, and not only that, had any of those items possibly had any value as evidence in a future trial, the items collected would have been contaminated. I.e. in their attempt to gather evidence, they effectively rendered any possible evidence useless.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on May 23, 2013, 02:10:10 PM
The villa which the McCanns rented was at Rua das Flores 27 in Praia da Luz. Weren't they effectively tricked into vacating the property by the PJ so that the searches could take place? For me that was the pits after everything they already had been through.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on May 23, 2013, 03:57:56 PM
Does this mean that the clothing etc was removed from the Villa AFTER the dog search?
Yes 100%
The boxes containing the clothing which was laid out in the gym for the dogs had the villa address on the labels.
If that is the case then why no alerts to the clothing in the villa before it was removed?
Benice, from the files, here is the only record I can find of a proffered reason for the inspection at the gym:
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
In these terms, the pieces of clothing recovered [from the home] were laid out individually in accordance with instructions given by the British technicians, the dogs [then] walking the area where they [those pieces of clothing] were laid out by order and with the following results described below.
Yet more ambiguous signals from Eddie the infallible?
The only other record is Amaral's book.
According to him, he received a phone call at home from Almeida that Harrison needed a second premises for the inspection following the one at the villa.
A garage in Lagos was found, spruced and super-cleaned but (apparently) not clean enough.
So Amaral drums up a gym (where, hours before, hot sweaty bodies will have been pumping iron and whatever else) and that was clean enough.
Erm, quite ....
But there's no record of that in the files.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 23, 2013, 03:59:57 PM
The villa which the McCanns rented was at Rua das Flores 27 in Praia da Luz. Weren't they effectively tricked into vacating the property by the PJ so that the searches could take place? For me that was the pits after everything they already had been through.
In what way were they 'tricked' into vacating the property ?
My understanding is that Gerry was contacted by the police that morning telling him that they would be coming to villa to do some forensic work
Naturally the villa would need to be vacated for a few hours in order for that forensic work to be carried out
Where was the 'trick' ?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on May 23, 2013, 04:12:35 PM
Here is the record from Amaral's book:
To avoid contamination of evidence that will be gathered at the McCanns', Mark Harrison has insisted on the availability of decontaminated premises exclusively set aside for this purpose. Julio Barroso, mayor of Lagos, agrees to lend us the garage of a new, unoccupied building in the centre of Lagos. The place is cleaned from top to bottom.
On August 2nd, at 6pm, the inspectors arrive at the McCanns' residence and present the search warrant. The principle of the examination by the specialist dogs is explained. Kate and Gerry are in the swimming pool in the garden with the twins. Contrary to all expectations, they allow us access to their house in a very natural way.
Eddie goes immediately to the lounge. He comes to a stop in front of a wicker armchair on which is lying Madeleine's small pink soft toy, which Kate was never without in the early days of the investigation. Nowadays, she wears a rosary and a green ribbon around her neck. Eddie barks to let us know that he has detected an odour: the soft toy has been in contact with a body.
The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.
- How do I find a place at this kind of time?
- Sort it out!
Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 04:25:27 PM
Naturally the villa would need to be vacated for a few hours in order for that forensic work to be carried out
Where was the 'trick' ?
Before proceeding to effect the search, copy of the dispatch attached determining who had access to the place, mentioning that they can be present during the search and be accompanied or substituted by someone of confidence will be delivered. If the persons in reference are not present, copy of the dispatch can be delivered where possible to a family member, neighbour, caretaker or whoever acts as substitute, article 176, n 1 and 2 of the CPP.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on May 23, 2013, 05:40:27 PM
Does this mean that the clothing etc was removed from the Villa AFTER the dog search?
Yes 100%
The boxes containing the clothing which was laid out in the gym for the dogs had the villa address on the labels.
If that is the case then why no alerts to the clothing in the villa before it was removed?
Maybe they were put away in drawers?
That shouldn't have presented a problem for Eddie. According to Grime he could detect scent buried a couple of feet underground - so any scent from an item in a drawer should have been a doddle.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on May 23, 2013, 05:45:43 PM
Does this mean that the clothing etc was removed from the Villa AFTER the dog search?
Yes 100%
The boxes containing the clothing which was laid out in the gym for the dogs had the villa address on the labels.
Yes, and as far as I can tell, there's no sign of items being individually bagged, just all thrown together in boxes. I've never seen such blatant disregard for basic rules regarding handling potential evidence.
And not only that, how would you like your garments strewn all over a filthy floor and walked over by a couple of muts after having your eldest child abducted a few weeks earlier? Bloody appalling behaviour in my book. What the hell was Grime thinking of?
What I find incredible is that every item of clothing supposedly alerted to - just happened to have been packed into the same box! (According to Grime)
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: AnneGuedes on May 23, 2013, 08:17:12 PM
No, the McCann did not "flee" Portugal, the lease on the Villa they rented was up & the PJ were fully informed that they were leaving. They were totally free to do so in accordance with Portuguese law.
Very true. Mr McCann's blog and Mrs McCann's "Madeleine" show clearly they had been aware for weeks of a curve in the investigation and had thought, who will blame them ?, it was time to leave.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 01:56:06 PM
A basic principle of cross-contamination of a death scent is that if something with a death scent comes into contact with anything else (a surface or another object) cross-contamination of the scent is immediate.
Grime himself was asked that question in his rogatory interview and confirmed that was the case.
Clothes were transported from the villa to the gym in bulk standard cardboard boxes.
Not that that mattered, the inspection coming 3 months after the crime, with the clothes (in the meantime) put through washing machines, packed in suitcases, put away together on wardrobe shelves and heaven knows what else.
Cross contamination, if it was going to occur, would long since already have occurred, rendering utterly pointless both inspections at villa and gym.
That's why Mark Harrison disowned UK participation in both inspections; also (no doubt) why he issued PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct searches in buildings after both inspections
From Grime's rogatory:
'How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected''?
Cross-contamination is immediate.
(Martin Grime)
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 03:49:14 PM
Vol IX p.2481 FALSE ALERTS
'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 11, 2013, 04:55:29 PM
Context is always better, he is obviously not talking about hmself as his dog never made a false positive alert
Vol IX p.2481 FALSE ALERTS
'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal. My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in bahaviour. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behaviour other than to direct the search.
Alerts in the gym were (most probably) false positives.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Redblossom on December 11, 2013, 05:03:59 PM
All clothes laid out in the gym were present, earlier, in the villa, where the only recorded "reaction" was to cuddle-cat.
Then clothes (present in the villa during the inspection of the villa) were transported to the gym and laid out a second time.
Keela was deployed first but didn't react.
Then Eddie was deployed.
He picked stuff up in his mouth and he barked.
Why didn't he bark, also, in the villa as a reaction to any clothes?
Either work it out for yourself or if you cant email mr grime, his email address is in the files.....cross contamination and all it means might be a clue...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 12, 2013, 12:17:45 AM
Eddie gave big bark alerts to the kids red top and Kate's trousers.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on December 12, 2013, 08:28:49 AM
All clothes laid out in the gym were present, earlier, in the villa, where the only recorded "reaction" was to cuddle-cat.
Then clothes (present in the villa during the inspection of the villa) were transported to the gym and laid out a second time.
Keela was deployed first but didn't react.
Then Eddie was deployed.
He picked stuff up in his mouth and he barked.
Why didn't he bark, also, in the villa as a reaction to any clothes?
A good question Ferryman.
Also - the clothes including CC were originally laid out at on the floor of other premises, but M. Harrison said the place was too dirty and so they were all collected up again, repacked into boxes and removed to the gym.
If the floor on which they had first been laid out was dirty - then contamination could have taken place during that episode.
Another anomaly i.e. - why didn't Eddie alert to CC at the gym?
Quote from Amaral The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean. Unquote
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on December 12, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
An extract from Gonçalo Amaral's book contains the following comments in relation to the deployment of dogs Eddie and Keela in the gym.
It should be pointed out that Amaral was the officer in charge of this exercise.
The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.
- How do I find a place at this kind of time?
- Sort it out!
Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood.
It has been claimed that this extract is in error, that the clothes were not laid out twice.
For those who feel this to be the case I offer you an opportunity to discuss this claim and provide supporting evidence.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on December 12, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
An extract from Gonçalo Amaral's book contains the following comment in relation to the deployment of dogs Eddie and Keela in the gym.
The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.
- How do I find a place at this kind of time?
- Sort it out!
Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood.
It has been claimed that this extract is in error, that the clothes were not laid out twice.
Please discuss with supporting evidence.
Where and by whom has this claim been made please John?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on December 12, 2013, 10:07:31 AM
Where and by whom has this claim been made please John?
It is up to members to challenge the claim by Gonçalo Amaral. If they are correct he is either mistaken or lied about events in his book, alternatively, the book in English has been misinterpreted. I for one want to get to the bottom of this.
My own view on the inspection of the clothes exercise is that it was a complete mess. Clothing was transported in such a way that cross contamination was inevitable. The clothes were initially laid out on a dirty floor and then reboxed only to be laid out again once a cleaner, more suitable premises had been found. These occurrences were nothing less than tawdry and fell well short of best practice. They effectively rendered the tests null and void in my opinion.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on December 12, 2013, 10:19:05 AM
It is up to members to challenge the claim by Gonçalo Amaral. If they are correct he is either mistaken or lied about events in his book, alternatively, the book in English has been misinterpreted. I for one want to get to the bottom of this.
Me too - but have to dash off now.
I look forward to the evidence - as to why Amaral's claim is erroneous.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 10:23:53 AM
An extract from Gonçalo Amaral's book contains the following comments in relation to the deployment of dogs Eddie and Keela in the gym.
It should be pointed out that Amaral was the officer in charge of this exercise.
The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.
- How do I find a place at this kind of time?
- Sort it out!
Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood.
It has been claimed that this extract is in error, that the clothes were not laid out twice.
For those who feel this to be the case I offer you an opportunity to discuss this claim and provide supporting evidence.
Given that Harrison, in his summary of all searches, summarised the inspection at the gym as a "pj exercise", I don't think Harrison had anything whatever to do with the inspection in the gym.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on December 12, 2013, 10:24:44 AM
Some of the original videos have been removed from the internet but here is a full length one taken from the original Duarte Levy version showing most of the searches. It includes footage of the perimeter search in the dark and a reminder of the dog deployment in the gym. View from 0.58.03
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2013, 01:06:46 PM
Personally, I can't make any sense of those clothes alerts.
What is the correct alert in responding to clothes supposed to be?
Picking clothes up in his jaws? Barking near them? Both? Either?
How do the various alerts noted by the PJ correspond to those alerts?
ETA: typo corrected.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Lyall on December 12, 2013, 01:13:05 PM
An extract from Gonçalo Amaral's book contains the following comments in relation to the deployment of dogs Eddie and Keela in the gym.
It should be pointed out that Amaral was the officer in charge of this exercise.
The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.
- How do I find a place at this kind of time?
- Sort it out!
Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood.
It has been claimed that this extract is in error, that the clothes were not laid out twice.
For those who feel this to be the case I offer you an opportunity to discuss this claim and provide supporting evidence.
Actually, I pointed out on an earlier thread that I didn't find it clear whether the clothes had actually been laid out and repacked or whether there was a potential misunderstanding in terms of the tenses used, which might have meant that there was an intention to do so in the first instance, but which did not actually take place.
It's so waffly on that issue, that I don't find it clear one way or another.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2013, 01:16:37 PM
BOXES OF CLOTHING 1 PROPERTY FORM MR McCANN'S RESIDENCE.
At a suitable venue numerous boxes of clothing 1 property taken from the McCann present residence were screened using both the EVRD and the CSI dog. The venue was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing / property. Neither gave an alert indication. The screening then took place with the contents of each box being placed around the room in turn. The process was recorded by video and written records were taken by PJ officers.
The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 01:38:57 PM
Frightening stuff.
How does stuff translated by Anna Undress that is no part of the official file, nevertheless, get in to the "official" file?
Villa rue des Fleurs.
Report:
August 2nd 2007 -6.14pm - 27 Rue das Floras- Praia Da Luz - Lagos
Participants:
PJ: Ricardo P & J. Carlos P., inspectors. UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime & Eddie.
On that date, within the context of a residential search, carried out at the McCann couple's current residence, an inspection by a dog handling team was made. Thus, at the time indicated at the beginning of the report, all areas of the property were inspected and the following results obtained:
6.36pm - The dog Eddie, who detects cadaver odours, "marked" the area of a cupboard in the living room. On checking, the dog was indicating a pink soft toy belonging to Madeleine McCann.
The clothes.
Date: August 2nd 2007 - 11.20pm
On that date, following the home visit made to the McCann's' current residence, on the Rue des Fleurs, various items of clothing were laid out in an appropriate place for this purpose, to carry out an inspection by the dog handling unit.
The collected items of clothing were set out individually with the agreement and under the directions provided by the British technicians, the dogs having previously covered the space where the clothing was laid out.
1 - 11.20pm: Prior reconnaissance of the place by the two canine units to guarantee that the space was clear of all odours being sought. The reconnaissance was completed at 11.30pm without anything being signalled by the dogs.
2 - 11.30pm: An initial inspection by the human blood detecting dog, began with the clothing packed in the box bearing the notation: "Living room." At 11.40pm, the inspection was completed without the dog showing anything abnormal.
11.41: The canine human remains recovery dog started its inspection and "marked" various clothes. The inspection was completed at 11.52pm. The clothes were returned to their box for later use.
From 12.02am until 1.30am, (03/08/07) all the other boxes, containing clothing from the twins' bedroom, from the friends' bedroom, from the bedroom of the couple labelled 1 & 2, as well as the empty luggage, was inspected by the two dogs without conclusive results.
Apartment 5A - OCEAN CLUB
As joinder to the procedure. It is made known and according to superior orders that today at 8pm, specialists from LPC (Police forensics lab) Fernando V. and Lino R., after having seen the recorded images resulting from the inspection by the dog handling unit on 31/07/07 in apartment 5A, duly mandated, proceeded with the collection of whole floor tiles where the dogs used in the inspection indicated the possible existence of traces of human blood as well as the presence of a body in the apartment. The tiles were lifted so as to preserve possible samples to be analysed by the appropriate laboratory. This entire action was filmed in order to illustrate the way in which the lifting was accomplished and with what tools so that the experts had a better idea of the work.
Robert Murat/Casa Liliana
Report:
August 4th and 5th 2007.
Casa Liliana, residence of the suspect Robert Murat, situated on "Ramalhete" road - Praia da Luz - Lagos.
Participants:
PJ: Tavares A., chief inspector, J. Carlos P., Ricardo P, inspectors UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime and Eddie.
On that date, within the context of residential visits, which were carried out at the home of the suspect ROBERT MURAT, an inspection by the dog handling unit was made in the gardens and inside the residence of the accused.
August 4th 2007 - 7.28pm: Start of the inspection of the gardens of the residence. Eddie, human remains recovery dog, covered the whole perimeter outside the dwelling and nothing abnormal was signalled.
August 5th 2007 - 3.22pm: The same dog inspected all rooms of the residence and nothing in particular was signalled.
RUSSELL O'BRIEN
To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.
In the context of the investigation, we have collected information concerning a vehicle used by RUSSELL O'BRIEN, friend and member of the group who spent their holiday with the McCann family in the Algarve . At the time of the request for vehicles considered important to the procedures that follow, we were not aware of the identification details of this vehicle. Meantime, our investigation has led us to establish that it may be a vehicle of the "Opel" range, a "Corsa" model, registration....AG - 62. At the present time, we do not have a mandate to search for and seize the vehicle to allow us to add the vehicle to the planned inspections. As a consequence, we request such a legal mandate in order to be able to realize the planned inspections.
Samples sent to the lab.
Between 3pm on August 4th 2007 and 6.30am on August 5th 2007, the following samples were recovered in the living room of apartment 5A at the OCEAN CLUB where a murder probably took place.
Samples 1A to 3B: recovered on the floor. Samples 4A to 13B: recovered on the wall. Samples 14A to 15B: recovered behind the sofa. Sample 16A: recovered from the blue curtain. Samples 16B: recovered from the white curtain behind the blue curtain.
All of these elements have been handed over to the Birmingham Forensic Science Services. (FSS)
Samples recovered in the car.
Between August 6th at 9.30pm and August 7th at 4am, the following samples were recovered in the grey Renault Scenic car.
From the driver's side:
1A: Hair 1B: Fibre and hairs 1C: Fibres and hairs 1D: Fingernail
Front passenger side:
2A: Hair 2B: Hair 2C: Fibres and hairs 2D: Fibres and hairs 2E: Fingernail
Between the seats:
3A: Hair
Back seat:
4A: Hair 4B: Fibres and hairs 4C: Fibres and hairs
Centre seat:
5A: Hair 5B: Fibres and hairs 5C: Fibres and hairs
Right-hand seat:
6A: Hair 6B: Fibres and hairs 6C: Fibres and hairs
Luggage compartment (rear boot)
7A: Hair 7B: Fibres and hairs 7C: Fibres
8A: Hair 8B: Fibres and hairs 8C: Fibres and hairs
9, 10 and 11: Hair
12: Car key
13: Control samples of seat fabric
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 01:47:31 PM
From the files, the only explanation I'm aware of of the inspection at the gym is this:
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
Possibly indicated by the dogs (from the inspection in the villa) where there was only one, apparent, alert: to cuddlecat ....
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 12, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
I see we are back to the gym again. One point can I bring to your attention is that you will note that the references are all to boxes. If you look at the video you will see that some of the clothing was stuffed in a suitcase before being transported to the two destinations for the dog tests. Another point worth considering is that only some of the clothes were set out at the first location before Harrison decided that it wasn't suitable.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 12, 2013, 02:14:08 PM
Actually, I pointed out on an earlier thread that I didn't find it clear whether the clothes had actually been laid out and repacked or whether there was a potential misunderstanding in terms of the tenses used, which might have meant that there was an intention to do so in the first instance, but which did not actually take place.
It's so waffly on that issue, that I don't find it clear one way or another.
Gonçalo is clear about what happened in his book. He recalls Tavares de Almeida calling him at 8pm to say that Mark Harrison is not happy with the venue, that the clothes were gathered up again and moved to a cleaner location.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 02:14:28 PM
Actually, I pointed out on an earlier thread that I didn't find it clear whether the clothes had actually been laid out and repacked or whether there was a potential misunderstanding in terms of the tenses used, which might have meant that there was an intention to do so in the first instance, but which did not actually take place.
It's so waffly on that issue, that I don't find it clear one way or another.
I suspect that discussion is moot, Carana.
I think Amaral made it all up.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 12, 2013, 02:34:50 PM
It took from before 8pm until after 11pm to sort this fiasco out and find suitable premises in Lagos. My question is why didn't Grime or Harrison make it clear to the Portuguese what was required? Was this further evidence of a total lack of understanding and professionalism between the parties involved??
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 02:56:20 PM
It took from before 8pm until after 11pm to sort this fiasco out and find suitable premises in Lagos. My question is why didn't Grime or Harrison make it clear to the Portuguese what was required? Was this further evidence of a total lack of understanding and professionalism between the parties involved??
It did.
I'm not altogether surprised. Finding and getting open a public facility for a non-standard use at that time of night must have taken a bit of doing.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 12, 2013, 04:46:16 PM
My suggestion is that we should invite Martin to come on himself to a question and answer session some evening. Then hopefully we would get to the truth of it all.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Lyall on December 12, 2013, 04:49:50 PM
My suggestion is that we should invite Martin to come on himself to a question and answer session some evening. Then hopefully we would get to the truth of it all.
People have been at the very least insulting him here all week (and a lot worse in some cases). Why would he have any interest in speaking?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: lizzibif on December 12, 2013, 04:55:50 PM
People have been at the very least insulting him here all week (and a lot worse in some cases). Why would he have any interest in speaking?
More to the point..why would Mr Grime want to answer to a handful of joe publics on a forum..?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Lyall on December 12, 2013, 04:55:54 PM
He's a professional. He uses two dogs, and his searches were filmed. Neither of those facts apply to many trainers in other cases, including those whose evidence has been used in courtrooms.
I think the criticism of him is well out of order.
People can criticise the science, nobody could object to that, but they have no justification at all for attacking him personally.
The McCanns haven't (apart from a few insults in their book). People should understand why they haven't.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 12, 2013, 04:56:54 PM
Whatever he said would be controversial wouldn't it.
Cant see it happening to be honest..and I don't think posters are insulting Mr Grime..more like questioning the dogs ability..after watching the video's myself I too question the dogs none reaction to many things..and the amount of times the dog had to be prompted..
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2013, 06:16:29 PM
Gonçalo is clear about what happened in his book. He recalls Tavares de Almeida calling him at 8pm to say that Mark Harrison is not happy with the venue, that the clothes were gathered up again and moved to a cleaner location.
I know, but there's a translation issue on that point. There's a thread here somewhere on it. Without hunting for it again, the translation gives the impression that they were unpacked, then repacked and taken elsewhere; the original says they were taken to a location where they would be laid out, then taken elsewhere, etc.
Amaral wasn't actually there anyway.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Cariad on December 12, 2013, 06:46:55 PM
My suggestion is that we should invite Martin to come on himself to a question and answer session some evening. Then hopefully we would get to the truth of it all.
He's done his job, he's been paid for it and he has suffered years of derision for it. He has continued to work successfully in this country and abroad. I can't think of a single reason why he would subject himself to a Q & A session with people who have repeatedly tried to discredit him.
His continued work shows that he hasn't been discredited, or at least not to the people who matter ie law enforcement officials who employ him.
He has nothing to gain from such an action and everything to lose.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2013, 06:55:33 PM
Whether the clothes had been laid out on a grubby parking-lot floor prior to the gym or not, I still don't see the point of the clothes inspection in the first place. What were they hoping to find?
What was Eddie's alert supposed to be to items of interest? Was it the clothes he tossed up in the air? The items he just barked at? The video and the list compiled by the PJ just don't seem to correlate.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 06:56:18 PM
If you leave your coat in a theatre cloakroom, and during the performance someone briefly hides something in the cloakroom and it touches your coat, and days later police visit you and take your coat away, and a dog like Eddie signals it, does that make you guilty at all? No?. But surely you are guilty for the scent is on your clothes. Sorry you are off to jail.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 12, 2013, 07:04:01 PM
I have been told he won't answer any questions at the moment since it is still an open investigation which of course is his prerogative. Looks like the myths are set to continue for some time to come.
Thanks admin.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 07:08:52 PM
Gonçalo is clear about what happened in his book. He recalls Tavares de Almeida calling him at 8pm to say that Mark Harrison is not happy with the venue, that the clothes were gathered up again and moved to a cleaner location.
Do you think it's possible Amaral could have lied?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 07:10:36 PM
I will piece together the full sequence of events of all the inspections referenced in Harrison's report, then post it up ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on December 12, 2013, 07:16:49 PM
Will add in edits as I go along:
In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.
This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.
McCann's Apartment.
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's. Murat's House and Garden.
The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann. A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets. Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence. Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood. This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed. An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.
Murat's Vehicles.
All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.
NB: No reference to any vehicle except those owned or driven by Murat
Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.
This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast. This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains. Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.
An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.
Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.
Offshore.
The sea in general circumstances would be immediately attractive to an offender as an easy way of body disposal and so must be considered. The searches of the coastline was conducted by the Maritime Police and Coastguard. They searched the sea for any body buoyant on the surface and checked the coves and caves. It could be considered appropriate to conduct research into the tidal flows and movement of the sea in this region and hypothesise where a body may travel if entered at certain points. It has been observed the depth of the sea appears shallow at the relevant area of coastline and this may become an inhibiting factor for any offender wishing to dispose of a body in it. Overall Summary.
This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases. Should the investigators wish to discuss and develop the issues raised
Then we come to the part that bears close scrutiny, where Harrison makes reference to the places Madeleine never lived in or went near:
In complying with these terms [Harrison's terms of reference] I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07. It recommended considering re searching:
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles. - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to. - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment. - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz. - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
This document was discussed on 23-07-07 with the PJ Director, myself and the Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Neil Holden who made relevant notes.
On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.
On 26-07-07 the PJ Director requested I consider the beach and marine environment at Praia da Luz for re-search and compile a report. I held meetings with coastal dynamic experts from the University of the Algarve in the presence of PJ officers and submitted a report to the PJ on 31-07-07 entitles “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine” (see appendix 3) with copies sent to Leicestershire Police and NPIA.
On 30-07-07 a meeting was held with the PJ Director, myself and Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Alan Orchard, who made relevant notes, to discuss the beach and marine environment at Praia da Luz and set a timeline for the PJ to re-search areas.
The search process was then initiated and continued over the following eight days. Throughout and at all locations I acted as an observer and search adviser. The PJ appointed a Chief Inspector as a search manager who was present throughout. Additionally, separate PJ officers were appointed to record and map each search location and provide a contemporaneous video commentary of all search activity undertaken. This system of management and recording was based on my reports recommendation to ensure record accuracy, transparency and facilitate any future clarification of any search activity undertaken. It was also essential that the official management and recording of the search was conducted by the Portuguese Police themselves rather than by British officers without any powers and not conversant with Portuguese law and judicial processes.
The search process used personnel to physically, intrusively and invasively explore all areas of disturbance, voids and concealment within the areas searched. The search utilised dogs trained to locate human remains and human blood, ground penetrating radar to detect sub surface disturbance and concealment, clearance teams to remove concealing vegetation, endoscopes to search drains and voids and metal probes to search the ground. These teams were supported by experts in Forensic Anthropology for human bone identification and a professor in geophysics.
There is no mention of the gym, and Harrison's role seems, almost, to have been abrogated.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 12, 2013, 07:22:26 PM
Do you think it's possible Amaral could have lied?
Certainly but he had very little to gain from putting a non truth about the deployment of the clothes in his book as it only made the PJ look silly. He could have left that bit out very easily. The fact that he released this information when Harrison appears to have conveniently ignored it is concerning to say the least. If what Amaral states is true it leaves you wondering what else did Harrison forget to include in his report??
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on December 12, 2013, 08:16:00 PM
I had a look at the clothes saga again.
From Almeida's report:
6.1. Cadaver dog: * 2 pieces of clothing of Kate McCann * One piece of Madeleine McCann * Madeleine's soft toy * The odour was detected when the toy was still in the interior of the actual residence of the McCann * It was confirmed in out of the house conditions http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
What I noted from the video is different. Times are approximate.
Keela doesn't react.
Eddie lies down waiting for instruction to check. He has a quick run over the clothes. No reaction.
1:01:09 - Called back and goes to back wall. Tosses tiny blue shorts and barks, and carries on barking. Tosses small red T-shirt and barks more. Carries on barking, plays with Kate's trousers, moves to large T-shirt along side wall (lifts part of it in his mouth), barking throughout.
1:01:40 Eddie taken away. Then allowed back again. Barks in corner.
The blue shorts aren't in the list, yet that's the first item he tosses and which sets him off barking. I don't see him react to Kate's top, yet that is in the list. The large T-shirt doesn't make the list either.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Redblossom on December 12, 2013, 08:56:40 PM
Ah thanks for that FM...on reading the whole thing turns out MH did ask for the screening of the car and your post here from another thread is erroneous, which makes your other previous post calling Grime unprofessional for deciding to screen the Mccanns car erroneous too. To which I replied it was MHs recommendation not Grime's.....glad thats sorted, you learn somethng new every day
The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07. It recommended considering re searching:
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
<Snip>
On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared
Thats not any kind of reply to my factual post, but never mind....if you want to assert MH did not recommend the mccanns car be searched and it was Grime (and this was an example that he acted unprofessionally ..sic) and or the PJ...well, carry on....its false though.....spreading misinformation is not helpful
Eta Shall leave you to your mission now... 8((()*/
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on December 12, 2013, 10:10:07 PM
If a shelf of clothes is signalled and 3 clothes are signalled does not this mean those clothes were on that shelf, and this distills 4 signals down to a single simple explanation, or have I been drinking too much Occam's single malt?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: lizzibif on December 12, 2013, 10:26:05 PM
I have been told he won't answer any questions at the moment since it is still an open investigation which of course is his prerogative. Looks like the myths are set to continue for some time to come.
Thanks admin.
I was right, I knew he wouldn't it was obvious..
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on March 13, 2014, 12:54:56 PM
From Almeida's report:
6.1. Cadaver dog:
* 2 pieces of clothing of Kate McCann
* One piece of Madeleine McCann
* Madeleine's soft toy * The odour was detected when the toy was still in the interior of the actual residence of the McCann * It was confirmed in out of the house conditions[/b][/u]
Surely this is wrong. Cuddlecat was not alerted to at the gym.
Also the red top was not Madeleine's imo.
Therefore the link which IMO is being proposed by TdA between cadaverscent, Kate and Madeleine is erroneous.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 13, 2014, 01:08:21 PM
We have two threads running at the moment which are very similar in content so can I ask that care be taken when posting responses.
As far as cuddlecat or the soft toy is concerned I'm sure everyone has seen the video of what happened in the villa. Eddie pulled cuddlecat out of the toy box and shook him into the air. End off one might think but no!
Not content with that Martin Grime puts the toy in the cupboard under the sink and deploys Eddie again. Eddie sniffs around the kitchen before sitting and barking in front of the same cupboard. Grime thinks that this proves something...I agree. It proves he is a f.....g [self censored]
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Admin on March 13, 2014, 01:22:23 PM
We have two threads running at the moment which are very similar in content so can I ask that care be taken when posting responses.
As far as cuddlecat or the soft toy is concerned I'm sure everyone has seen the video of what happened in the villa. Eddie pulled cuddlecat out of the toy box and shook him into the air. End off one might think but no!
Not content with that Martin Grime puts the toy in the cupboard under the sink and deploys Eddie again. Eddie sniffs around the kitchen before sitting and barking in front of the same cupboard. Grime thinks that this proves something...I agree. It proves he is a f.....g [self censored]
I'm pleased you censored that comment Angelo. ...assuming always that it was not a term of endearment. ?>)()<
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 13, 2014, 01:44:14 PM
We have two threads running at the moment which are very similar in content so can I ask that care be taken when posting responses.
As far as cuddlecat or the soft toy is concerned I'm sure everyone has seen the video of what happened in the villa. Eddie pulled cuddlecat out of the toy box and shook him into the air. End off one might think but no!
Not content with that Martin Grime puts the toy in the cupboard under the sink and deploys Eddie again. Eddie sniffs around the kitchen before sitting and barking in front of the same cupboard. Grime thinks that this proves something...I agree. It proves he is a f.....g [self censored]
I felt really sorry for Eddie. From what I've seen, he looked as if he was trying very hard to please his master. I think the dog is more at home in an area that is less confining. So it appears the doggie investigation didn't help and was incorrectly reported.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 15, 2014, 11:14:29 AM
We have two threads running at the moment which are very similar in content so can I ask that care be taken when posting responses.
As far as cuddlecat or the soft toy is concerned I'm sure everyone has seen the video of what happened in the villa. Eddie pulled cuddlecat out of the toy box and shook him into the air. End off one might think but no!
Not content with that Martin Grime puts the toy in the cupboard under the sink and deploys Eddie again. Eddie sniffs around the kitchen before sitting and barking in front of the same cupboard. Grime thinks that this proves something...I agree. It proves he is a f.....g [self censored]
.
Martin Grime was actually PC Grime, a member of the great British Constabulary, as were Canine Units Eddie and Keela.
British Police. Just like the ones we are trusting now.
So which is it? Are they an organisation of criminals themselves, as you're implying? Because falsifying evidence is a crime.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on March 15, 2014, 07:26:24 PM
Just a reminder that a signal of a person's clothes does not incriminate that person.
This is true Pegasus - as illustrated by the alert to Sean's red top.
That top is described in the report as being Madeleine's top. It clearly isn't - and IMO is an example of evidence being 'manipulated' to fit in with a certain theory.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on March 16, 2014, 08:19:45 AM
For me the key point about all the items Eddie picked up is that no dog attending a crime scene should have physical contact with stuff it is tasked to inspect.
Even more so, both dogs trampling all over clothing, in both the villa and the gym.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 16, 2014, 08:49:10 AM
Argue as you like, it does not dismiss the possibility that the dogs indicated correctly, and that's what sticks in your craw.
not at all...a possibility..yes im happy to accept that
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 16, 2014, 09:20:27 AM
Try this one Stephen...Question to Martin Grime from the rogs...actual quotes...
'Based upon your experience with the dogs, can you specify whether the positive signals given by them have always matched the scientific results''
Martin grimes response...
" I cannot"
Do you need it clearer than that.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 10:15:29 AM
What happened to everyone's underwear? There's only one pair of a lady's knickers in the photos. I don't recall underwear in the video...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 10:40:27 AM
Something that seems a bit odd. The clothes inspection was the only one in which Keela was wheeled in before Eddie... except once:
7. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 2" was inspected by the cadaver dog between 01h20 and 01h22, then the blood dog between 01h23 and 01h25. Nothing abnormal was detected by either dog.
??
Was this a mistake in taking notes, or was the order changed?
Pages 2100-2102
Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.
The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila.
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
In these terms, the pieces of clothing recovered [from the home] were laid out individually in accordance with instructions given by the British technicians, the dogs [then] walking the area where they [those pieces of clothing] were laid out by order and with the following results described below.
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
3. Clothes from the box labelled Lounge ("sitting room") were inspected by the blood dog between 00h02 (now 3 August) and 00h05 without any result. The same clothes were inspected by the cadaver dog between 00h06 and 00h07 also without any result.
4. Then the suitcase labelled 'Twins bedroom' was inspected, followed by two sets of inspections of its contents due to the large number of individual pieces it contained: the blood dog inspected [the first set] between 00h12 and 00h15, and then [the second set] between 00h22 and 00h24 - both without any result. The cadaver dog inspected [set one] between 00h16 and 00h17, then [set two] between 00h25 and 00h26, also without any result.
5. An empty suitcase labelled 'Visitors bedroom' was inspected, along with sundry clothing packed in a box labelled Outside Clothes rack. Between 00h40 and 00h43 the blood dog inspected without any result, and in its turn the cadaver dog inspected between 00h44 and 00h45, also without any result.
6. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 1" was inspected by the blood dog between 00h51 and 00h55, while the cadaver dog inspected it between 00h56 and 0057 without any result from either dog. because there were so many pieces of clothing in the box a second inspection was conducted between 01h04 and 01h07 by the blood dog, and between 01h08 and 01h09 by the cadaver dog, [again] without any result from either dog.
7. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 2" was inspected by the cadaver dog between 01h20 and 01h22, then the blood dog between 01h23 and 01h25. Nothing abnormal was detected by either dog.
Attached, the photo report which immediately follows and the video recording on MiniDV cassette.
There being nothing more the activity stopped at 01h30.
This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be signed by all participants. (three signatures appended; five missing)
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on March 16, 2014, 12:02:27 PM
Something that seems a bit odd. The clothes inspection was the only one in which Keela was wheeled in before Eddie... except once:
7. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 2" was inspected by the cadaver dog between 01h20 and 01h22, then the blood dog between 01h23 and 01h25. Nothing abnormal was detected by either dog.
??
Was this a mistake in taking notes, or was the order changed?
Pages 2100-2102
Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.
The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila.
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
In these terms, the pieces of clothing recovered [from the home] were laid out individually in accordance with instructions given by the British technicians, the dogs [then] walking the area where they [those pieces of clothing] were laid out by order and with the following results described below.
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result. - At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.
3. Clothes from the box labelled Lounge ("sitting room") were inspected by the blood dog between 00h02 (now 3 August) and 00h05 without any result. The same clothes were inspected by the cadaver dog between 00h06 and 00h07 also without any result.
4. Then the suitcase labelled 'Twins bedroom' was inspected, followed by two sets of inspections of its contents due to the large number of individual pieces it contained: the blood dog inspected [the first set] between 00h12 and 00h15, and then [the second set] between 00h22 and 00h24 - both without any result. The cadaver dog inspected [set one] between 00h16 and 00h17, then [set two] between 00h25 and 00h26, also without any result.
5. An empty suitcase labelled 'Visitors bedroom' was inspected, along with sundry clothing packed in a box labelled Outside Clothes rack. Between 00h40 and 00h43 the blood dog inspected without any result, and in its turn the cadaver dog inspected between 00h44 and 00h45, also without any result.
6. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 1" was inspected by the blood dog between 00h51 and 00h55, while the cadaver dog inspected it between 00h56 and 0057 without any result from either dog. because there were so many pieces of clothing in the box a second inspection was conducted between 01h04 and 01h07 by the blood dog, and between 01h08 and 01h09 by the cadaver dog, [again] without any result from either dog.
7. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 2" was inspected by the cadaver dog between 01h20 and 01h22, then the blood dog between 01h23 and 01h25. Nothing abnormal was detected by either dog.
Attached, the photo report which immediately follows and the video recording on MiniDV cassette.
There being nothing more the activity stopped at 01h30.
This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be signed by all participants. (three signatures appended; five missing)
Interesting spot.
Most likely to be a recording error, I would say ...
ETA:
Something else interesting is that there was no gap between completion of reconnoitre and commencement of search, tending to suggest that the clothes were laid out before the recoinnoitre, making a mockery of the reconnoitre.
Why was not any apparent scent detected during reconnoitre?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 12:21:05 PM
Most likely to be a recording error, I would say ...
Possibly, but what on earth happened to everyone's underwear? Were these also mistakes in notes / video clips... or were they left out?
If they were left out... why?
What's the idea there? There weren't any (aside from one pair of lady's knickers)?? In which case, if that is supposed to be accurate, no member of the the occupants of that villa, whose clothing was taken, ever wore any underwear... How likely is that?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 02:16:35 PM
Can anyone match items on the dining table in Eddie villa video, with PJ photos of items in the box labelled "living area" ?
P.S. How about pillows?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 02:46:32 PM
There was only ladies panties, but why only Kates undies? The babies were still in nappies, but surely Maddy would have spare panties, but why check any underwear? I believe there was no beachwear either.
No beachwear for anyone, one pair of ladies' knickers, no bras (let alone a sports bra), no men's undies, few - if any - clothes attributable to Madeleine.
If they were checking all clothing, why not underwear? There was one pair of knickers... why just that one?
Either the family:
- Never wore any - Threw away everyone's underwear (bar one item) for some unfathomable reason before the dog team arrived - Set aside elasticated materials for a gentle wash and spin, which weren't recuperated / examined
Or the police team didn't find any:
- Underwear / beachwear for anyone
Or, if the PJ/ Grime team had done:
- They were excluded for some reason.
A question: would Eddie have reacted or not to dirty laundry, if he'd been encouraged to concentrate?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: sadie on March 16, 2014, 02:55:23 PM
BUMPED
Quote from: Anna on Today at 02:14:42 PM
Quote
There was only ladies panties, but why only Kates undies? The babies were still in nappies, but surely Maddy would have spare panties, but why check any underwear? I believe there was no beachwear either.[
Carana: No beachwear for anyone, one pair of ladies' knickers, no bras (let alone a sports bra), no men's undies, few - if any - clothes attributable to Madeleine.
If they were checking all clothing, why not underwear? There was one pair of knickers... why just that one?
Either the family:
- Never wore any - Threw away everyone's underwear (bar one item) for some unfathomable reason before the dog team arrived - Set aside elasticated materials for a gentle wash and spin, which weren't recuperated / examined
Or the police team didn't find any:
- Underwear / beachwear for anyone
Or, if the PJ/ Grime team had done:
- They were excluded for some reason.
A question: would Eddie have reacted or not to dirty laundry, if he'd been encouraged to concentrate? « Last Edit: Today at 02:48:58 PM by Carana »
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 03:01:34 PM
The PJ photos in the files are of only the clothing etc from the living area (lounge/dining room). The other 90%+ of the clothing in the villa ( from the parents bedroom, the childrens bedroom, the guest bedroom, and the drying rack) are not shown in the photographs.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: sadie on March 16, 2014, 03:05:50 PM
The PJ photos in the files are of only the clothing etc from the living area (lounge/dining room). The other 90%+ of the clothing in the villa ( from the parents bedroom, the childrens bedroom, the guest bedroom, and the drying rack) are not shown in the photographs.
I like your style Pegasus. You really work at checking things out 8((()*/
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 03:19:26 PM
The PJ photos in the files are of only the clothing etc from the living area (lounge/dining room). The other 90%+ of the clothing in the villa ( from the parents bedroom, the childrens bedroom, the guest bedroom, and the drying rack) are not shown in the photographs.
Why not?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 03:21:24 PM
Individual photos are published in the files of every item (clothing, pillows, etc) from the box marked "living area" because Eddie alerted to some items from this box.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 03:27:58 PM
Which items were packed in which boxes? And which items did he react to in each?
That information is all in the files. . For example all the clothing you have seen in the dog villa video in the lounge and dining area, was packed into a cardboard box labelled with the room name "sala da estar".
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 16, 2014, 04:36:35 PM
That information is all in the files. . For example all the clothing you have seen in the dog villa video in the lounge and dining area, was packed into a cardboard box labelled with the room name "sala da estar".
Thats what I thought without checking back yet again. Were there any alerts to any other box?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on March 16, 2014, 05:39:40 PM
The items on dining table in villa dog video IMO are same as these photos at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm 23: two pillow cases, yellow 24: pillow with cover, white 25: pillow with cover, white 26: two bath towels, yellow anyone agree?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 16, 2014, 08:24:23 PM
The items on dining table in villa dog video IMO are same as these photos at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm 23: two pillow cases, yellow 24: pillow with cover, white 25: pillow with cover, white 26: two bath towels, yellow anyone agree?
I'll have a look tomorrow if I find the video sequence again.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on March 16, 2014, 08:24:45 PM
Thats what I thought without checking back yet again. Were there any alerts to any other box?
I don't think so. It was Grime who commented that the items alerted to all came from the same box.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: gilet on March 29, 2014, 03:04:12 PM
There may (or may not) be confusion as to the difference between the skills of the dogs (their ability to discern scents) and the reliability of the dog alerts.
This thread is not about the skills of the dogs but about the extraneous matters which may (or may not) affect the reliability of the alerts made by the dogs.
Such reliability does not depend solely on the dogs but on other matters as well.
A major factor in determining how reliable dog alerts are is how well the material/scene which they are asked to examine has been handled or preserved by those responsible.
The expertise of the dog handler is a factor. Personally, I believe that Grime was a very expert handler of dogs but even the most expert in any field can make mistakes.
Other factors might be weather or time elapsed before the dogs are brought into the crime scene.
All of these matters and potentially others are the subject of this thread but each should be looked at separately as different factors pertain to them.
Let's begin with the preservation of materials.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: gilet on March 29, 2014, 03:17:58 PM
Please watch this video from 58:10 as the PT officers empty one box of clothes with no separation between those clothes at all, meaning that cross-contamination would be almost inevitable. If one item had cadaver scent on it then those rubbing against it in that box would likely as not be contaminated. That is why in this country no police force would collect evidence in such a slapdash way. They would ensure that each item was separately bagged.
I had long been aware of the potential of cross-contamination in these clothing boxes because of the slapdash handling of the clothes but and this is a big but, I hadn't actually noticed exactly what follows from 1:01:00 to 1:01:25 with that in mind. The three clothing alerts are almost adjacent to each other. And having seen how the PJ officers took the clothing earlier in the film from another box the fact that these three items are so close suggest very strongly that they could in fact have been pressed against each other in the cardboard box. No lawyer would fail to challenge the notion that these could be recorded as three separate alerts when such a strong possibility of cross contamination exists. It is almost impossible to believe in such a situation that cross-contamination would not occur.
Would it be accurate to describe this as three separate alerts? Personally, having seen that video, I think not.
But why does this matter? Surely the alert is to cadaver scent?
Well yes, but it means that only one of those articles may have been directly in contact with a cadaver in the past which markedly reduces the necessary contact with any cadaver.
Going beyond the clothing alerts to Cuddle Cat.
Could there be any possibility of cross-contamination between the clothing and the toy during the months between the disappearance and the introduction of the dogs? Well yes, there could.
There are lots of pictures showing the cat against various articles of clothing including the trousers which were alerted to in the gym.
Any lawyer in court would be utterly remiss if they failed to indicate this potential for cross-contamination and the way in which such cross-contamination would reflect on the potential number of actual contacts with cadaver scent.
Just from this short post it is clear that there are legitimate questions as to whether we can reliably determine the number of necessary contacts with any cadaver from the dog alerts.
Much more to come but I have to be elsewhere now till late this evening.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 29, 2014, 08:19:43 PM
Speculation, speculation and yet more speculation.
Why are you so concerned gilet with this video and 'cross contamination', when we now full well the forensics were inconclusive ?
Who are you trying to convince exactly ?
As you well know, most people on here have made up their minds already, and this is unlikely to change their opinions.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: jassi on March 29, 2014, 08:25:37 PM
Speculation, speculation and yet more speculation.
Why are you so concerned gilet with this video and 'cross contamination', when we now full well the forensics were inconclusive ?
Who are you trying to convince exactly ?
As you well know, most people on here have made up their minds already, and this is unlikely to change their opinions.
I did not come on this site to study the McCanns, as my interest was with the Ciprianos and I believed the McCanns were guilty of something and like yourself, I thought the fact that they left three babies alone, was terrible, so I was not interested in discussing them. I was however curious and decided to check out the evidence supplied here and in the files, only to find there was no evidence of anything except for dogs alerts. I am still checking and not yet entirely sure what I think, but many of the scenarios on here are really unbelievable.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on March 30, 2014, 09:51:30 PM
Eddie failed to alert to any of the clothing whilst it was in the villa - but only alerted after it had been removed and laid out in the gym. To my knowledge M.Grime has never explained that apparent failure by Eddie.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 30, 2014, 09:56:59 PM
Eddie failed to alert to any of the clothing whilst it was in the villa - but only alerted after it had been removed and laid out in the gym. To my knowledge M.Grime has never explained that apparent failure by Eddie.
Thank you Benice I don't know where I thought that Eddie tossed clothes around in the Gym and they were taken along with Cat. That now concludes my theory , cheers ?{)(**
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on March 30, 2014, 10:05:19 PM
Thank you Benice I don't know where I thought that Eddie tossed clothes around in the Gym and they were taken along with Cat. That now concludes my theory , cheers ?{)(**
Excellent point.
The same clothes not alerted to in the villa, alerted to (apparently!) in the gym.
And we still don't know, really, how the inspection in the gym came about.
There is Amaral's explanation in his book, which I'm strongly inclined to dismiss.
From the files, there is an introduction to the inspection in the gym which says that clothes seized following the inspection at the villa were tested a second time to try to identify items of clothing possibly alerted to in the villa.
Big mystery ...
Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 30, 2014, 10:08:28 PM
The same clothes not alerted to in the villa, alerted to (apparently!) in the gym.
And we still don't know, really, how the inspection in the gym came about.
There is Amaral's explanation in his book, which I'm strongly inclined to dismiss.
From the files, there is an introduction to the inspection in the gym which says that clothes seized following the inspection at the villa were tested a second time to try to identify items of clothing possibly alerted to in the villa.
Big mystery ...
Something to do with a box I believe.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on March 30, 2014, 10:11:10 PM
These items should never have been moved and handled by so many people, at such a late hour too. He was trying too hard to prove......
In short, the inspections should never have happened.
While it is true that transporting stuff in cardboard boxes was slipshod, because of the inevitability of cross-contamination in the event that any item of clothing carried a death scent, the wider, and more relevant point is this.
The inspection came 3 months after the crime. In the interim, those clothes will have packed in suitcases, put through washing machines, folded away in wardrobes and cupboards and heaven knows what else.
Cross-contamination, if it was going to occur, would long since already have done so.
So what was the point of any of it?
Simply, these inspections should never have happened.
Why did they?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 30, 2014, 10:37:52 PM
It's clear as mud what he was supposed to have alerted to as he throws some items in the air and nuzzles others and carries on barking. Grime said he didn't have the list, so it's not clear who actually decided what he'd alerted to.
For example, the first thing he throws up in the air is a tiny pair of blue shorts... but that's not on the list. He does the same with the little red T-shirt (from memory) and that is on the list. He doesn't throw Kate's blouse in the air, just nuzzles it, but that is on the list. He also nuzzles a large green man's T-shirt, but that's not on the list.
All a bit odd.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on March 30, 2014, 10:40:51 PM
It's clear as mud what he was supposed to have alerted to as he throws some items in the air and nuzzles others and carries on barking. Grime said he didn't have the list, so it's not clear who actually decided what he'd alerted to.
For example, the first thing he throws up in the air is a tiny pair of blue shorts... but that's not on the list. He does the same with the little red T-shirt (from memory) and that is on the list. He doesn't throw Kate's blouse in the air, just nuzzles it, but that is on the list. He also nuzzles a large green man's T-shirt, but that's not on the list.
All a bit odd.
The red tee-shirt was much too small to have been worn by Madeleine (at least on that holiday) and was clearly one of the twin's ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 30, 2014, 10:44:58 PM
It's clear as mud what he was supposed to have alerted to as he throws some items in the air and nuzzles others and carries on barking. Grime said he didn't have the list, so it's not clear who actually decided what he'd alerted to.
For example, the first thing he throws up in the air is a tiny pair of blue shorts... but that's not on the list. He does the same with the little red T-shirt (from memory) and that is on the list. He doesn't throw Kate's blouse in the air, just nuzzles it, but that is on the list. He also nuzzles a large green man's T-shirt, but that's not on the list.
All a bit odd.
Thank you Carana, We still have no statements from the other guests in 5A yet. The cadaver if it was cadaver scent got there somehow, or the doggie was wrong this time.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 30, 2014, 10:47:12 PM
The red tee-shirt was much too small to have been worn by Madeleine (at least on that holiday) and was clearly one of the twin's ...
IMO it was definitely Sean's T-shirt - It had boats or planes on it and was red. Not at all 'girlie' IMO.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on March 30, 2014, 11:05:02 PM
IIRC you will find the recommended age-range and height written on the label in the files. www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm But IMO it's irrelevant which individual owned each clothing item in that pile as they were not wearing them at the time.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 30, 2014, 11:12:38 PM
IIRC you will find the recommended age-range written on the label in the files. But IMO it's irrelevant which individual owned each clothing item in that pile as they were not wearing them at the time.
I'm more intrigued as to why certain items made the list and others didn't. Going from memory as I really don't feel like wading through that video again right now, the clothes started with kids' clothes (top left), Kates' clothes corner area, and presumably Gerry's down the right wall.
I'll add the link to the thread on that if I find it again.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on March 30, 2014, 11:17:47 PM
Here's a clothes gym thread http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3065.0
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 31, 2014, 12:00:20 AM
Here's a clothes gym thread http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3065.0
Cheers again Carana. I forgot that I had posted this on the other thread http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 31, 2014, 12:03:04 AM
Processos Vol VIII
Pages 2110 - 2112
With thanks to Albym
POLICIA JUDICIARIA Inspector: Joao Carlos Date: 03/08/07 Place: DIC Portimao
Designated Officers: Paulo Pancadas and Nuno Nunes, PJ Inspectors
DIRECT EXAMINATION Presented with a box containing articles and other clothing with the inscriptions “DIC DE PORTIMAO” * NUIPC 20107.0 GALS * Place: Rua das Flores, no.27 – Vivenda Vista-Do-Mar –Urbanizacao Luz-Praia da Luz-Lagos * Division: Lounge (handwritten) * 2 pillows (handwritten) * Date: 2/08/07.
1. One pair of woman’s trousers, HOBBS, size 8, checked pattern (white and black).
2. One woman’s top, white, H & M, European size 5.
3. A children’s T-Shirt, red, with aeroplane motifs, NEXT, for the age 2-3, length 98 cms.
4. Sleeveless woman’s T-shirt, white NEXT, in UK size 10
5. Bath towel, Turkish cloth, white SAN PEDRO
6. Bath towel, Turkish cloth, blue, with marine motifs, FELPOTECE
7. Children’s shorts, blue, with red string, NEXT, for age 2-3, length 98 cms
8. Children’s shorts, lycra, blue in colour, with pink, MATERNA, for 2-3 years, length 98 cm
9. Children’s trousers, dark blue with bright orange, MARKS & SPENCER, for one to one and½ years, length 90 cms
10. Children’s shirt – girl – pink, DOLCE & GABBANA, with the image SUPERGIRL.
11. Boy’s shirt, short-sleeved, light blue, with small white markings, NEXT, for 2-3 years, length 98cms.
12. Ladies briefs, white, MARKS & SPENCER, UK size 10
13. Men’s t-shirt, short-sleeved, mixed colours, with letters on the front, NEXT, size large.
14. Woman’s sleeveless shirt, lilac, with floral designs on the front, KIRKWOOD ESSENTIALS.
15.Men's sport polo shirt, white with black trim, GLENMUIR 1891, Medium.
16. Men’s sport shorts, white, NIKE, size XL
17. Woman’s sport t-shirt, grey, with the word PASSION written on the front, AMELIA JANE, size 44.
18. Sport t-shirt for men, white, with some grey, MARKS & SPENCER, size large
19. Men’s t-shirt, light blue, with the inscription O’NEILL, size large.
20. A bib with sleeves, Turkish cloth, white, with Turkish blue colouring, with a monkey on the front and the words “here comes…trouble”
21. Children’s shorts, khaki, with various pockets, GENUINE KIDS, size 2T
22. Children’s shorts, with vertical stripes in blue tones, DESIGNERS, for age 18-24 months
23. Two pillow-cases, yellow, with dolls and words.
24. A pillow with the respective cover, white, with the words “Visto do Mar 927 Metavilla”
25. A pillow with its cover, white
26. Two bath towels of Turkish cloth, yellow.
All the articles were photographed and identified from numbers 1 to 26, corresponding to the numbers above. The photos follow the report. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35-10.html
(Linked in TOC)
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 31, 2014, 12:19:20 AM
Didn't Gerry own any trousers or jackets? It appears not from that list 8)-)))
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 31, 2014, 12:21:22 AM
IIRC you will find the recommended age-range and height written on the label in the files. www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm But IMO it's irrelevant which individual owned each clothing item in that pile as they were not wearing them at the time.
Thank you Pegasus I missed your post and went wading through the threads to find it ...Never mind we got there 8((()*/
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 31, 2014, 12:22:57 AM
IIRC you will find the recommended age-range and height written on the label in the files. www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm But IMO it's irrelevant which individual owned each clothing item in that pile as they were not wearing them at the time.
Did you say on another thread that a lot of the clothes from the wardrobe in 5A before the Villa. were not inspected in the Gym and only some items were used?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on March 31, 2014, 01:35:05 AM
The pants and red top are not seen in the living room. They must be already packed.
Good at last someone is looking in the living area footage for the 26 items listed and photographed as coming from the living area. The items on the dining table (pillows, pillow cases, towels) are the easiest to find IMO. IIRC there is packing commencing at the end of the villa footage, but not at the stage of Eddie's alerts.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on March 31, 2014, 01:27:35 PM
Well What evidence do we have....................................... The supposed cadaver scent from 5A wardrobe and the contents inconclusive blood on tiles and curtains in lounge which was apparently missed by CSI No Scent in the apartment that the McCanns moved too, after the disappearance (despite the probability of X contamination of articles in that Apt) No scent in Villa. Cuddlecat is a ? Scent in the gym (A blood dog can still scent blood after many washes and the scent would be X contaminated during the washing,w so any small bleed would be enough) Keela was one of the best!. =========================================== So The scent was found in the Gym and 5A, where others were involved in the investigations, but none in the Apt that the Mccanns stayed in after the disappearance.
How did that blood get missed by CSI and where did the supposed cadaver scent come from?????
I can only find three possible answers.................................................
1.Contamination by other traffic or other occupants (after the disappearance) in 5A and Gym 2.Doggie fault 3.Something more sinister.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Teecah on April 10, 2014, 03:24:13 PM
If you mean controlled experiments, probably the most famous is the Hamburg carpet-square experiment, where a very high level of accuracy (well over 90%) was achieved, although errors were made.
But often missed is the way that experiment is most relevant to dog-deployment in PdL; it (the Hamburg carpet-square experiment) was driven by the principle of cross-contamination.
The bodies of two dead men were covered in cotton blankets to simulate thin layers of clothing and also to prevent direct contact of the carpet-squares with the bodies. Then the carpet squares were passed underneath and close to (but not touching) the buttock of either man and held in that position for lengths of time that varied.
Every carpet-square thus positioned (for whatever length of time) was contaminated with a death scent by cross-contamination.
Indeed, Grime himself was asked about cross-contamination in his rogatory interview and replied that it (cross-contamination) is immediate.
Why, then, was there wholesale disregard of the principle in Grime's deployment of Eddie in PdL?
ETA: Welcome to the board, Tee
Thank you, I don't have much time to post and it sometimes looks as if you all know each other so well which makes me shy to jump in.
I'm sorry if I was off topic but I was referring to scent line ups. There's people who've been convicted (burglary, murder) on the results of it. I find this an interesting article which I've found this week when I was looking for information about the reliability of scent dogs. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/22698_displayArticle.aspx
Re the bolded part. If that's true and if Eddie was indeed alerting to cadaver odour when he alerted to the clothes, can somebody please explain to me why he didn't alert to the other clothes, especially the clothes which were in that same box?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on April 10, 2014, 03:43:17 PM
Thank you, I don't have much time to post and it sometimes looks as if you all know each other so well which makes me shy to jump in.
I'm sorry if I was off topic but I was referring to scent line ups. There's people who've been convicted (burglary, murder) on the results of it. I find this an interesting article which I've found this week when I was looking for information about the reliability of scent dogs. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/22698_displayArticle.aspx
Re the bolded part. If that's true and if Eddie was indeed alerting to cadaver odour when he alerted to the clothes, can somebody please explain to me why he didn't alert to the other clothes, especially the clothes which were in that same box?
Welcome Tee, That is a very interesting article. As for the clothes alerted to in the Gym....I believe they did all come from one box, but if I am wrong, I am sure someone will put it right shortly. Have you watched the video?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 10, 2014, 08:10:34 PM
Thank you, I don't have much time to post and it sometimes looks as if you all know each other so well which makes me shy to jump in.
I'm sorry if I was off topic but I was referring to scent line ups. There's people who've been convicted (burglary, murder) on the results of it. I find this an interesting article which I've found this week when I was looking for information about the reliability of scent dogs. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/22698_displayArticle.aspx
Re the bolded part. If that's true and if Eddie was indeed alerting to cadaver odour when he alerted to the clothes, can somebody please explain to me why he didn't alert to the other clothes, especially the clothes which were in that same box?
Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on April 10, 2014, 08:19:26 PM
Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.
You clearly don't believe Grime, then.
I don't altogether blame you ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 10, 2014, 08:20:42 PM
Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.
This is something I have come to realise which really does put the cat among the pigeons. Eddie only alerts when he has found what he was trained to find, he found it in apartment 5a and he found it in the gym and the underground car park.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on April 10, 2014, 08:23:05 PM
This is something I have come to realise which really does put the cat among the pigeons. Eddie only alerts when he has found what he was trained to find, he found it in apartment 5a and he found it in the gym and the underground car park.
I'm learning all the time as well. It does make sense for him to locate the source or strongest scent first before bark alerting. As you say, with alerts in different places it doesn't look good.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: sadie on April 10, 2014, 08:27:12 PM
This is something I have come to realise which really does put the cat among the pigeons. Eddie only alerts when he has found what he was trained to find, he found it in apartment 5a and he found it in the gym and the underground car park.
Yep he alerts to dried blood, cadavar odour etc and also bodily fluids.
Do you know which he was alerting to, John?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Teecah on April 11, 2014, 02:17:26 PM
Welcome Tee, That is a very interesting article. As for the clothes alerted to in the Gym....I believe they did all come from one box, but if I am wrong, I am sure someone will put it right shortly. Have you watched the video?
Yes they all came from one box. I watched the video years ago and checked today. First he passes most of the clothes without stopping or alerting to anything. When he arrived at the pillows he was called back, next he runs to the "Children's shorts, blue" (7) and starts barking, then to "A childrens T-Shirt, red" (3) then to "One pair of woman's trousers" (1) and next to what I think is the "One woman's top, white" (2)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: gilet on April 11, 2014, 02:55:02 PM
Eddie only bark alerts when he finds the strongest scent e.g. Kate's cadaver pants. He is trained to find the source/strongest scent before alerting. It's the reason the clothes are separated. He can get his nose in close on each item to alert which clothes has the strongest scent. IMO pants were in contact with a cadaver.
He alerted to three pieces of clothing. Why are you stating that the trousers were the prime source of scent?
The problem is that there is no way (no matter what your opinion may be) that anyone can actually demonstrate that the trousers or the other two items of clothing came into direct contact with a cadaver.
The fact is that these clothes, as Teecah has reminded us, were bundled into a single box with the strong likelihood that cross-contamination occurred between them. The reason in the UK that potential evidence is bagged separately is to prevent that happening. We are told in the reports that the PJ were dependent on the advice of Harrison and Grime for the conduct of the geophysical and dog searches and I am appalled that neither of them questioned such a basic flaw in procedure.
Any of these three items of clothing could have previously been contaminated without direct contact to any cadaver. Unless you can provide some direct link between the clothing and a cadaver then it is mere supposition that there was direct contact.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on April 11, 2014, 03:02:02 PM
Gilet:
We are told in the reports that the PJ were dependent on the advice of Harrison and Grime for the conduct of the geophysical and dog searches and I am appalled that neither of them questioned such a basic flaw in procedure.
Harrison (indirectly) did, by describing both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on April 11, 2014, 04:01:20 PM
There is no doubt that the repeated laying out of the clothes and the way they were handled was farcical. I just wonder what control if any the two British experts had on events?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: TTSOFAFM on April 11, 2014, 05:13:52 PM
I don't know when the training video was filmed, but it is obviously normal practice.... No rubber gloves were used when training and using skeletal samples?……Could this not cause X contamination of trainer’s clothing etc? Is it a possibility that further X contamination may occur during an investigation whilst innocently, touching and brushing past articles, while wearing garments, used in training, without the use of protective gloves ?
Video around at around 1 min.15 secs onwards
Yes it could Anna.
Thank you for posting that video. One thing I have noticed though that video was made in 2008. One year after Martin Grime retired. When posters mention about the dog going into 'working mode' when an officer is in their uniform, I can see the logic and understand how the dog's mind works. It is just like when you get the lead out for a walk, they associate lead with walk. So it is understandable that a dog would associate his master in uniform as they are going to work.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: gilet on April 11, 2014, 05:27:22 PM
There is no doubt that the repeated laying out of the clothes and the way they were handled was farcical. I just wonder what control if any the two British experts had on events?
Harrison and Grime were supposed to be advising the PJ on these unfamiliar techniques of EVRD dogs and Geophysics and were clearly present watching the events unfold in that gym. I am somewhat shocked that they did not at least comment on the effect of bundling clothes together in that way.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: gilet on April 11, 2014, 05:29:56 PM
We are told in the reports that the PJ were dependent on the advice of Harrison and Grime for the conduct of the geophysical and dog searches and I am appalled that neither of them questioned such a basic flaw in procedure.
Harrison (indirectly) did, by describing both inspections at villa and gym as pj exercises.
Being a professional of the standing he has and Grime has, perhaps one or other should have been more explicit in condemning such appalling handling of the evidence. Just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Anna on April 11, 2014, 06:12:34 PM
Thank you for posting that video. One thing I have noticed though that video was made in 2008. One year after Martin Grime retired. When posters mention about the dog going into 'working mode' when an officer is in their uniform, I can see the logic and understand how the dog's mind works. It is just like when you get the lead out for a walk, they associate lead with walk. So it is understandable that a dog would associate his master in uniform as they are going to work.
Thank you for your answer I think this is the follow up of the last video.....
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Cariad on April 11, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Thank you for posting that video. One thing I have noticed though that video was made in 2008. One year after Martin Grime retired. When posters mention about the dog going into 'working mode' when an officer is in their uniform, I can see the logic and understand how the dog's mind works. It is just like when you get the lead out for a walk, they associate lead with walk. So it is understandable that a dog would associate his master in uniform as they are going to work.
Should a different lead be used, for example, a dog accustomed to a choke chain be put in a harness instead, would the dog refuse to leave the house?
I'm sure that if you have the tiniest iota of sense you will recognise that a uniform/ lead/ dog walking shoes/ whatever, is the first cue to the dog that something is about to occur and if that cue is missing, the next cue will be used to alert the dogs.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2014, 07:03:28 PM
Yes they all came from one box. I watched the video years ago and checked today. First he passes most of the clothes without stopping or alerting to anything. When he arrived at the pillows he was called back, next he runs to the "Children's shorts, blue" (7) and starts barking, then to "A childrens T-Shirt, red" (3) then to "One pair of woman's trousers" (1) and next to what I think is the "One woman's top, white" (2)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm
Welcome, Teecah.
I agree that the alerts seem somewhat bizarre. The tiny blue pair of shorts (the first thing he throws up in the air and barks at) isn't on the list. He didn't throw up a woman's blouse, but that is on the list. If the nuzzling is the cue, then the grey/green man's T-shirt isn't on it, either.
Grime didn't have the notes on what he was supposed to have reacted to, the PJ did. How they came to their conclusion remains a mystery.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on April 11, 2014, 07:09:19 PM
Harrison and Grime were supposed to be advising the PJ on these unfamiliar techniques of EVRD dogs and Geophysics and were clearly present watching the events unfold in that gym. I am somewhat shocked that they did not at least comment on the effect of bundling clothes together in that way.
Is it normal forensic practice to stuff all potential evidence in a particular room into a single box?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on April 11, 2014, 08:54:22 PM
I agree that the alerts seem somewhat bizarre. The tiny blue pair of shorts (the first thing he throws up in the air and barks at) isn't on the list. He didn't throw up a woman's blouse, but that is on the list. If the nuzzling is the cue, then the grey/green man's T-shirt isn't on it, either.
Grime didn't have the notes on what he was supposed to have reacted to, the PJ did. How they came to their conclusion remains a mystery.
I tend to agree with you. It would have been better to place each item in an individual bag before placing in box. And to have the handler state exactly yes this item was alerted to, no this item was not alerted to.
However it may turn out not too important exactly which clothing items were alerted to. IMO all the clothing items alerted to (whether one chooses items listed, or items thrown in the air, or items nuzzled) are simply items which were in a pile in a cupboard, and were not being worn at the time when some of the items in the pile came into varying degrees of contact.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 11, 2014, 11:34:45 PM
Eddie threw the blue shorts away and bark alerted at the red plane top. Eddie is standing over the red top barking his head off. Did he do that to the blue shorts? The red plane top was a positive alert and so were the pants.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on April 12, 2014, 12:22:41 AM
A photo of a pile of clothing etc in a cupboard in a missing child case in USA
If hypothetically you had taken all those clothing items (USA case) and let an EVRD examine them individually he/she would have alerted to some of the items IMO.
The alerted items (USA case) would simply be the items which by chance in the pile (USA case) happened to come into direct contact with the source IMO. The alerted items (USA case) would not incriminate their individual owners IMO.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 16, 2014, 11:25:39 PM
Cadaverine does NOT transfer itself.
Cadaverine is particulate, those particles do not "move" of their own free will.
They stay where they are deposited.
There should have been zero alerts.
How anyone can watch a video of a dog and his handler for 15 minutes, then pronounce what that dog found or alerted to, is beyond me.
I'm not the handler.
Eddie was NEVER handled by anyone but Grime because ONLY GRIME COULD INTERPRET HIS ALERTS.
The video we see is heavily edited. The work of Grime and his dogs went on for days not half an hour.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Fern on May 17, 2014, 05:53:38 PM
Unless I have misunderstood your post, your claims are totally at odds with what Martin Grime states.
Extract from Vol 1X page 2479
'Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.'
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2014, 07:11:35 PM
Cadaverine is particulate, those particles do not "move" of their own free will.
They stay where they are deposited.
There should have been zero alerts.
How anyone can watch a video of a dog and his handler for 15 minutes, then pronounce what that dog found or alerted to, is beyond me.
I'm not the handler.
Eddie was NEVER handled by anyone but Grime because ONLY GRIME COULD INTERPRET HIS ALERTS.
The video we see is heavily edited. The work of Grime and his dogs went on for days not half an hour.
Grime didn't have the notes of which clothes Eddie supposedly reacted to. The PJ did. If Grime had provided an explanation as to why some items were thrown up in the air, but which didn't get a mention in the PJ list, or why some were simply nuzzled, but did... yet the items listed were not consistent with the "alerts" with no explanation. If Grime could have given an explanation, then at least that part of the clothes inspection may appear a little less bizarre.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Fern on May 18, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
I have yet to encounter a credible explanation why Eddie made NO alert to clothes in McCann Villa during August searches and yet once the clothes were removed later on that evening, alerts were made.
That indicates something is not quite right.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 18, 2014, 01:56:58 PM
I have yet to encounter a credible explanation why Eddie made NO alert to clothes in McCann Villa during August searches and yet once the clothes were removed later on that evening, alerts were made.
That indicates something is not quite right.
Tell me where those alerted clothes were in the villa when Eddie checked? You don't know.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Fern on May 18, 2014, 02:29:05 PM
Tell me where those alerted clothes were in the villa when Eddie checked? You don't know.
Why is it relevant where the clothes were kept in the villa ?
Based on the extract below from PJ Files, it clearly states that ALL areas were searched.
"On that date, within the context of a residential search, carried out at the McCann couple's current residence, an inspection by a dog handling team was made. Thus, at the time indicated at the beginning of the report, ALL AREAS of the property were inspected"
As I said previously, I have yet to read a credible explanation of why no alerts were made to the clothes whilst they were in the villa.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on May 18, 2014, 02:51:14 PM
Tell me where those alerted clothes were in the villa when Eddie checked? You don't know.
Doesn't matter.
They were in the villa.
If there was a scent, Eddie should have detected it.
From the inspection in the gym, this is how a search should be conducted:
1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.
You search for prior scents in a building; then you introduce what ever you want examined.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 04, 2014, 01:49:21 AM
I don't pretend to be an expert in the use of dogs.
However, dogs do get distracted by other things around them, don't you agree ?
Are you an expert in dog handling yourself, or merely a keyboard 'expert' such as ferryman pretends to be ?
As for deflection that is precisely why you are on this forum, to deflect attention from ....... >@@(*&)
It was a simple enough question which you don't have to be an expert to ask if you believe what Martin Grime tells us about his dogs' skills. I do believe him.
Can I take it from your response that you believe that Eddie may have been distracted in the villa - which resulted in his complete failure to alert to several items in there - which he then later did alert to in the Gym?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 04, 2014, 10:26:31 AM
It was a simple enough question which you don't have to be an expert to ask if you believe what Martin Grime tells us about his dogs' skills. I do believe him.
Can I take it from your response that you believe that Eddie may have been distracted in the villa - which resulted in his complete failure to alert to several items in there - which he then later did alert to in the Gym?
Show me where the alerted clothes were in the villa?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on June 04, 2014, 10:59:52 AM
What does it matter. They were in the villa - and therefore well within the scope of Eddie'skills.
You don't know that but you keep on saying that it's true. How do I know it's true if you can't show me where the alerted clothes were in the villa that Eddie missed?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on June 04, 2014, 11:39:38 AM
You don't know that but you keep on saying that it's true. How do I know it's true if you can't show me where the alerted clothes were in the villa that Eddie missed?
How could anyone know precisely where different clothing was kept in the villa? We haven't been told. I think you are splitting hairs here Pathfinder.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on June 04, 2014, 11:43:53 AM
You don't know that but you keep on saying that it's true. How do I know it's true if you can't show me where the alerted clothes were in the villa that Eddie missed?
Where do you think the clothes came from. Do you think someone found them or dug them up? Where else could they have come from but the villa? Perhaps they didn't belong to The McCanns at all.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 04, 2014, 12:00:17 PM
Where do you think the clothes came from. Do you think someone found them or dug them up? Where else could they have come from but the villa? Perhaps they didn't belong to The McCanns at all.
And you don't know if they were packed and taken out of the villa before Eddie went in.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 12:03:06 PM
Where do you think the clothes came from. Do you think someone found them or dug them up? Where else could they have come from but the villa? Perhaps they didn't belong to The McCanns at all.
In the video of the inspection of the clothes in the gymnasium, I recall seeing the boxes which contained the clothing labelled with the address of the villa, where the Drs McCann and their family were staying and from which the boxes had been removed. As we know from Dr Amaral's book the clothing had already been inspected without 'success' before he was able to arrange a more appropriate site in Lagos ~ IMO the failed inspection took place in the villa with the clothes in situ.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on June 04, 2014, 12:04:41 PM
In the video of the inspection of the clothes in the gymnasium, I recall seeing the boxes which contained the clothing labelled with the address of the villa, where the Drs McCann and their family were staying and from which the boxes had been removed. As we know from Dr Amaral's book the clothing had already been inspected without 'success' before he was able to arrange a more appropriate site in Lagos ~ IMO the failed inspection took place in the villa with the clothes in situ.
The clothes had not been inspected before, they were only given to the dogs to smell one time. At first it had been considered to carry out the inspection in a garage but Mark Harrison did not accept the location, he wanted a cleaner one. The Mayor of Lagos found another site for the police, a newly inaugurated sports pavillion, which MH found acceptable and this is where the inspection was done.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 01:16:09 PM
The clothes had not been inspected before, they were only given to the dogs to smell one time. At first it had been considered to carry out the inspection in a garage but Mark Harrison did not accept the location, he wanted a cleaner one. The Mayor of Lagos found another site for the police, a newly inaugurated sports pavillion, which MH found acceptable and this is where the inspection was done.
Not according to what Dr Amaral says in his book ~
~ Quote ~ "The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.- How do I find a place at this kind of time?- Sort it out! Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood." ~ end Quote
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 04, 2014, 01:26:06 PM
Not according to what Dr Amaral says in his book ~
~ Quote ~ "The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.- How do I find a place at this kind of time?- Sort it out! Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood." ~ end Quote
That is the same?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 01:52:38 PM
I missed out the preceding sentence which made it plain that, prior to being packed in boxes, the clothing and the soft toy had been in the villa when Eddie was working. In my opinion ~ check one
According to what Dr Amaral says in his book all were then packed into boxes and taken to another location where they were spread out on the ground and repacked, the area not being 'clean enough'. In my opinion ~ check two
They were then removed to Lagos. In my opinion ~ check three.
If Dr Amaral's account is correct I think it points to the clothing being in close poximity to Eddie on at least three occasions.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 04, 2014, 05:27:30 PM
I missed out the preceding sentence which made it plain that, prior to being packed in boxes, the clothing and the soft toy had been in the villa when Eddie was working. In my opinion ~ check one
According to what Dr Amaral says in his book all were then packed into boxes and taken to another location where they were spread out on the ground and repacked, the area not being 'clean enough'. In my opinion ~ check two
They were then removed to Lagos. In my opinion ~ check three.
If Dr Amaral's account is correct I think it points to the clothing being in close poximity to Eddie on at least three occasions.
Well put the preceding sentence in and we can judge.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Montclair on June 04, 2014, 06:55:03 PM
Not according to what Dr Amaral says in his book ~
~ Quote ~ "The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.- How do I find a place at this kind of time?- Sort it out! Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood." ~ end Quote
The correct translation from Portuguese is "they were to be placed" not "they are placed" (onde seriam colocadas no chão, de forma espaçada....).
BTW, as to way the clothes were transported together, how do you think that the police found the clothing? It was all bunched together and they even took some out of the washing machine. It would have made no difference at all if they had packed each piece separately.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 04, 2014, 07:00:42 PM
The dogs shouldn't have indicated AT ALL but they did.
Madeleine shouldn't have been shoved in a hole in the ground but it looks like she was.
The children shouldn't have been left alone, Kate should have called her name.
On and on the "shoulds" go.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 07:08:47 PM
Well put the preceding sentence in and we can judge.
I hope you don't think I am being rude but if you wish to quibble or argue the point ~ just do what I did and check it out for yourself. It is really easy to locate, so you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 04, 2014, 07:23:41 PM
I hope you don't think I am being rude but if you wish to quibble or argue the point ~ just do what I did and check it out for yourself. It is really easy to locate, so you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
Right...
Quote
On August 2nd, at 6pm, the inspectors arrive at the McCanns' residence and present the search warrant. The principle of the examination by the specialist dogs is explained. Kate and Gerry are in the swimming pool in the garden with the twins. Contrary to all expectations, they allow us access to their house in a very natural way.
Eddie goes immediately to the lounge. He comes to a stop in front of a wicker armchair on which is lying Madeleine's small pink soft toy, which Kate was never without in the early days of the investigation. Nowadays, she wears a rosary and a green ribbon around her neck. Eddie barks to let us know that he has detected an odour: the soft toy has been in contact with a body.
The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence. These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine.
At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean.
- How do I find a place at this kind of time?
- Sort it out!
Julio Barroso offers us the new sports hall in Lagos which, finally, meets the required standards. The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start. Eddie alerts us to a strong cadaver odour on some of Kate's clothes, but the CSI dog doesn't detect the slightest trace of blood.
Doesn't suggest a thorough sweep of the apartment.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: sadie on June 04, 2014, 07:32:41 PM
The correct translation from Portuguese is "they were to be placed" not "they are placed" (onde seriam colocadas no chão, de forma espaçada....).
BTW, as to way the clothes were transported together, how do you think that the police found the clothing? It was all bunched together and they even took some out of the washing machine. It would have made no difference at all if they had packed each piece separately.
As you have just illustrated they were NOT all bunched together before.
As if everyones clothes would have been in the same place in a massive piler. And that is without your just revealing that they weren't all together.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 07:40:31 PM
The correct translation from Portuguese is "they were to be placed" not "they are placed" (onde seriam colocadas no chão, de forma espaçada....).
BTW, as to way the clothes were transported together, how do you think that the police found the clothing? It was all bunched together and they even took some out of the washing machine. It would have made no difference at all if they had packed each piece separately.
The translation is not mine but your point emphasises the many problems associated with ‘unauthorised’ translations on the internet.
I did not raise the manner in which the clothing was packed and unpacked.
However it is my opinion that the whole episode was conducted in a very amateurish and unprofessional fashion.
I am of the opinion that the clothing should have been transported in individual evidence bags.
Your opinion is that it would have made no difference ~ it is my opinion the manner in which it was transported would either have been inadmissible or totally destroyed by a competent lawyer if the case had ever reached court.
I find it puzzling that the location of the checks seems to have been considered of such importance. If Eddie didn’t alert to the clothing in the villa ~ why on earth would he alert to the same clothing in the second or third location?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
Doesn't suggest a thorough sweep of the apartment.
If you check back on the threads you will locate the video of Eddie rampaging through the villa ~ playing with CC ~ running over beds ~ being directed into and out of wardrobes and sideboards.
The clothing was there ~ CC was there and as stated were then conveyed to two different locations.
Trim Eddie goes immediately to the lounge. He comes to a stop in front of a wicker armchair on which is lying Madeleine's small pink soft toy, The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence.
Therefore three checks were carried out on the clothing.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 04, 2014, 08:26:30 PM
If you check back on the threads you will locate the video of Eddie rampaging through the villa ~ playing with CC ~ running over beds ~ being directed into and out of wardrobes and sideboards.
The clothing was there ~ CC was there and as stated were then conveyed to two different locations.
Trim Eddie goes immediately to the lounge. He comes to a stop in front of a wicker armchair on which is lying Madeleine's small pink soft toy, The soft toy and all the clothes from the house are placed into boxes specially made to preserve evidence.
Therefore three checks were carried out on the clothing.
Can't find anything that suggests checks were performed in the garage.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 04, 2014, 08:53:55 PM
Can't find anything that suggests checks were performed in the garage.
May I refer you to a passage in Dr Amaral's book ~
~ Quote ~ To avoid contamination of evidence that will be gathered at the McCanns', Mark Harrison has insisted on the availability of decontaminated premises exclusively set aside for this purpose. Julio Barroso, mayor of Lagos, agrees to lend us the garage of a new, unoccupied building in the centre of Lagos. The place is cleaned from top to bottom. Clip These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean. ~ end Quote
Dr Amaral makes it clear that these items have been checked on three separate occasions ~ Eddie only alerting to clothing on the third inspection.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 04, 2014, 09:08:53 PM
May I refer you to a passage in Dr Amaral's book ~
~ Quote ~ To avoid contamination of evidence that will be gathered at the McCanns', Mark Harrison has insisted on the availability of decontaminated premises exclusively set aside for this purpose. Julio Barroso, mayor of Lagos, agrees to lend us the garage of a new, unoccupied building in the centre of Lagos. The place is cleaned from top to bottom. Clip These objects are then conveyed to the decontaminated premises. They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean. ~ end Quote
Dr Amaral makes it clear that these items have been checked on three separate occasions ~ Eddie only alerting to clothing on the third inspection.
I refer you to Montclairs post...
Quote
The correct translation from Portuguese is "they were to be placed" not "they are placed" (onde seriam colocadas no chão, de forma espaçada....).
This context means they didn't do checks in the garage because it wasn't suitable.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2014, 12:51:49 PM
This context means they didn't do checks in the garage because it wasn't suitable.
Why are you in such denial over a detail which can mean nothing under any circumstances. The only evidence provided by the whole episode is of the incompetence with which it was conducted.
Dr Amaral is perfectly clear in stating the clothing was laid out in the garage [the original bone of contention was that there was no garage]. How many "errors in translation" does this book contain?
If the premises were 'unclean' before this was done ~ why didn't he say so then? IMO this was decided only after the dogs had inspected and found nothing.
IMO ~ three inspections on the clothing were carried out. The villa. The garage. The gymnasium in the sports centre. Eddie alerted only at the third.
~ Quote ~ They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean. ~ end Quote
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 05, 2014, 01:52:20 PM
Just overlook the only important point which leaves no doubt where the dogs alerted. Not at Murat's or other apartments. Only one apartment, clothes and car from one family. Any which way you try and twist it the truth doesn't change as it connects to one family.
Some will believe a paedo killed the child in 5A and waited for an hour before leaving. He played games with the checkers by moving doors to confuse them then took a few items of clothes and put them on the cadaver to contaminate them and then thought I will open the noisy shutters and window to confuse them either more now it's time to leave as the mother is coming 8-)(--)
Blaming the paedo is a possible connection that may solve why a death was covered up. An accidental death in 5A and then a post mortem may reveal abuse that child had suffered. If that hypothesis is correct the body had to be removed and paedos blamed in case she was found. That is only one hypothesis to cover up a death. Of course there's more.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Brietta on June 05, 2014, 03:31:57 PM
Just overlook the only important point which leaves no doubt where the dogs alerted. Not at Murat's or other apartments. Only one apartment, clothes and car from one family. Any which way you try and twist it the truth doesn't change as it connects to one family.
Some will believe a paedo killed the child in 5A and waited for an hour before leaving. He played games with the checkers by moving doors to confuse them then took a few items of clothes and put them on the cadaver to contaminate them and then thought I will open the noisy shutters and window to confuse them either more now it's time to leave as the mother is coming 8-)(--)
Blaming the paedo is a possible connection that may solve why a death was covered up. An accidental death in 5A and then a post mortem may reveal abuse that child had suffered. If that hypothesis is correct the body had to be removed and paedos blamed in case she was found. That is only one hypothesis to cover up a death. Of course there's more.
When it boils down to it ~ the dogs didn't actually alert to anything pertaining to the McCann family. I base that statement on analysis of the videos of their activities. Also that there is absolutely no evidence to support their 'alerts'.
Rationally ~ if your assertion is correct ~ one must accept that of all the premises inspected in PDL ~ not one drop of human blood was spilled, with the exception of apartment 5a and the vehicle hired by the Drs McCann.
Just not possible.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Montclair on June 05, 2014, 03:39:10 PM
Why are you in such denial over a detail which can mean nothing under any circumstances. The only evidence provided by the whole episode is of the incompetence with which it was conducted.
Dr Amaral is perfectly clear in stating the clothing was laid out in the garage [the original bone of contention was that there was no garage]. How many "errors in translation" does this book contain?
If the premises were 'unclean' before this was done ~ why didn't he say so then? IMO this was decided only after the dogs had inspected and found nothing.
IMO ~ three inspections on the clothing were carried out. The villa. The garage. The gymnasium in the sports centre. Eddie alerted only at the third.
~ Quote ~ They are placed on the ground, a good distance apart for the dogs to examine. At 8pm, Tavares de Almeida calls me to let me know that Mark Harrison requires another place because this one is not sufficiently clean. ~ end Quote
Did you actually read my post? If you can read Portuguese you will see that the clothes were only inspected once or do you believe Mark Harrison and Martin Grime are corrupt or don't know how to do their work? Are you so desperate that you make up things? If you have proof that the clothes were inspected the other two times, please indicate the references in the police files.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2014, 03:46:39 PM
Brietta and Montclair
I think there is an ambiguity in the translation. The translation was from Portuguese to French and the French was then translated into English. There's a thread on that.
The issue is whether the original meant that the clothes were actually laid out in the first location or whether it means that it was where they were to be laid out (i.e., the intention... were intended to be laid out).
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 05, 2014, 04:29:10 PM
When it boils down to it ~ the dogs didn't actually alert to anything pertaining to the McCann family. I base that statement on analysis of the videos of their activities. Also that there is absolutely no evidence to support their 'alerts'.
Rationally ~ if your assertion is correct ~ one must accept that of all the premises inspected in PDL ~ not one drop of human blood was spilled, with the exception of apartment 5a and the vehicle hired by the Drs McCann.
Just not possible.
No it is perfectly clear where Eddie barked/alerted for cadaver odour; inside 5A, outside in the garden, on the clothes and coming out of the car which he was chasing in the underground car park.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Montclair on June 05, 2014, 05:49:51 PM
I think there is an ambiguity in the translation. The translation was from Portuguese to French and the French was then translated into English. There's a thread on that.
The issue is whether the original meant that the clothes were actually laid out in the first location or whether it means that it was where they were to be laid out (i.e., the intention... were intended to be laid out).
I can confirm that in the book, the meaning is that the "clothes were to be laid out" but they were not. I think that we can agree that Mark Harrison would never allow the clothes to be laid out before he inspected the premises.
The problem comes from the French version of the book in which the translation to French gives the idea that the clothes were laid out. And then the English version is a translation from the French version, therefore the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2014, 06:05:36 PM
I can confirm that in the book, the meaning is that the "clothes were to be laid out" but they were not. I think that we can agree that Mark Harrison would never allow the clothes to be laid out before he inspected the premises.
The problem comes from the French version of the book in which the translation to French gives the idea that the clothes were laid out. And then the English version is a translation from the French version, therefore the misunderstanding.
I still don't understand whether the use of the conditional tense was deliberate or not. All I was trying to say is that it seems ambiguous. It could have been clarified by a sentence to clearly state that the intended action didn't actually happen. As it stands, it's up in the air as to what actually happened. And the account is rather vague on this point, even in the files...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: jassi on June 05, 2014, 06:07:37 PM
I've rather lost track of this. Why is it important?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on June 05, 2014, 07:20:13 PM
If you read slightly further down the page Amaral adds...
"The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start."
The question should probably not be if they were laid out but how many were laid out before it was stopped?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Montclair on June 05, 2014, 09:52:32 PM
If you read slightly further down the page Amaral adds...
"The objects are once again laid out on the ground and the dogs can start."
The question should probably not be if they were laid out but how many were laid out before it was stopped?
Let me clarify this once again: Nothing was laid out on the ground without the authorisation of Mark Harrison and only one inspection took place in the gym in Lagos.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2014, 01:08:33 AM
This is the exact original text Mr Amaral wrote "com todas as peças de roupa colocadas no chão"
Now here is a correct translation "with all the items of clothing placed on the floor"
And next is the wrong translation. "The objects are once again laid out on the ground"
Notice that the incorrect translation has wrongly inserted the words "once again" into the sentence.
The source for the correct original text is: "A Verdade Da Mentira", Chapter 16, Page 172.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: pegasus on June 06, 2014, 01:43:20 AM
The translation into english which some peeps are quoting from was IMO never intended to be an accurate word for word translation. You can see that it paraphrases and summarises the original portuguese text.
The false accusation (some peeps claiming that Mr Amaral and Mr Grime laid out the clothes on the garage floor) is based entriely on two words in an incorrect translation which are not in the original portuguese sentence at all.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: John on June 06, 2014, 07:41:23 AM
The issue of the Amaral book translation beggars the question as to how many other errors exist in the current English language version on the internet?
I wonder if the official translation is similarly compromised?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 06, 2014, 07:49:53 AM
I am sure if there were any major inconsistencies, the McCanns would not have lost their attempt to suppress it.
I am also sure that after years in the public arena being read by countless bilingual and multilingual individuals, any errors would have been used to create even more outrage against Amaral.
As it is, a misplaced word or two will not affect the story as a whole.
It has gone through the highest Portugese court and been endorsed as "accurate".
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Montclair on June 06, 2014, 09:30:22 AM
The issue of the Amaral book translation beggars the question as to how many other errors exist in the current English language version on the internet?
I wonder if the official translation is similarly compromised?
The mistake in the translation did not come from the ones made on the internet but was made in the French edition of the book and the person who made the English translation used the French edition as the source.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2014, 03:21:48 PM
Posting over here, as the the previous comments may be simply deleted as OT:
Quote from: misty48 on Today at 03:13:15 PM
No doubt Sr. Amaral made sure those buttoned trousers of Gerry's were first on the list of clothes to be examined by Eddie & Keela - didn't he????
I still can't work out which "alerts" were supposed to have corresponded to which clothing items. Grime didn't list them: he said that the PT police had the list. If you compare the alerts and the items listed it's quite baffling how the PJ came to their conclusions.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 03:28:04 PM
Posting over here, as the the previous comments may be simply deleted as OT:
Quote from: misty48 on Today at 03:13:15 PM
No doubt Sr. Amaral made sure those buttoned trousers of Gerry's were first on the list of clothes to be examined by Eddie & Keela - didn't he????
I still can't work out which "alerts" were supposed to have corresponded to which clothing items. Grime didn't list them: he said that the PT police had the list. If you compare the alerts and the items listed it's quite baffling how the PJ came to their conclusions.
Do we have an official list? I would quite like to see it.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2014, 03:56:47 PM
Posting over here, as the the previous comments may be simply deleted as OT:
Quote from: misty48 on Today at 03:13:15 PM
No doubt Sr. Amaral made sure those buttoned trousers of Gerry's were first on the list of clothes to be examined by Eddie & Keela - didn't he???? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
I still can't work out which "alerts" were supposed to have corresponded to which clothing items. Grime didn't list them: he said that the PT police had the list. If you compare the alerts and the items listed it's quite baffling how the PJ came to their conclusions.
Bafflling indeed. And if Gerry was Smithman then those buttoned trousers would surely be be reeking of cadaverscent - and yet IIRC correctly none of Gerry's clothing was alerted to.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 04:19:15 PM
Bafflling indeed. And if Gerry was Smithman then those buttoned trousers would surely be be reeking of cadaverscent - and yet IIRC correctly none of Gerry's clothing was alerted to.
You are correct. None of Gerry's clothing raised an alert. And I am not sure that Gerry was even wearing those trousers that night.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 05, 2014, 04:37:03 PM
Bafflling indeed. And if Gerry was Smithman then those buttoned trousers would surely be be reeking of cadaverscent - and yet IIRC correctly none of Gerry's clothing was alerted to.
Depends, surely, on how much contact they had & how many times they were washed.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 04:41:09 PM
According to Martin Grime - cross-contamination on contact is instant.
Also IIRC even articles washed in a washing machine will not completely get rid of cadaverscent.
In fact, we don't need to take Martin Grime's word on that.
The Hamburg carpet square experiment was driven by the principle of cross-contamination.
The bodies of the two men used for the experiment were covered in cotton blankets to simulate a thin layer of clothing and to prevent direct contact of the carpet-squares with the body.
Then carpet squares were passed underneath and close to, but not touching, the buttock of either man, and held in position for lengths of time that varied.
Common to every carpet square without exception that was thus handled was that death-scent, cross-transferred to the carpet.
Who is Kaye Scarpetta, Eleanor?
A creation of Patrica Cornwell?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2014, 04:54:08 PM
Do we have an official list? I would quite like to see it.
What I find baffling is that the "official" list doesn't seem to correspond to the items to which Eddie reacted. It's not actually clear what the "official" alert was supposed to have been.
He threw some items up in the air (which aren't on the list), and nuzzled others which do, and barked/nuzzled yet other items, some of which appear on the list, yet others don't.
I've already gone through this once before, but my post may have been deleted since then.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 05, 2014, 04:54:57 PM
According to Martin Grime - cross-contamination on contact is instant.
Also IIRC even articles washed in a washing machine will not completely get rid of cadaverscent.
I imagine if you were to load up a washing machine with say 1 contaminated item & the rest uncontaminated, the scent would likely spread around & transfer to other items of clothing.
Christ! If you laid them clothes out all at once & brought the dog in, he could be overwhelmed, he might not know where to start, he could get carried away, pick up some clothes in his mouth then snap his head back & start barking.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 05:14:36 PM
In fact, we don't need to take Martin Grime's word on that.
The Hamburg carpet square experiment was driven by the principle of cross-contamination.
The bodies of the two men used for the experiment were covered in cotton blankets to simulate a thin layer of clothing and to prevent direct contact of the carpet-squares with the body.
Then carpet squares were passed underneath and close to, but not touching, the buttock of either man, and held in position for lengths of time that varied.
Common to every carpet square without exception that was thus handled was that death-scent, cross-transferred to the carpet.
Who is Kaye Scarpetta, Eleanor?
A creation of Patrica Cornwell?
Yes, a creation of Patricia Cornwell, who is, or was a forensic scientist.
As for the carpet squares. For how long had the bodies been dead? And did they wash the carpet squares and then test?
I agree that cross contamination will occur, but it is much more complicated. Although one might wonder why all of The McCann clothing wasn't contaminated if cross contamination was the case.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2014, 05:16:16 PM
I imagine if you were to load up a washing machine with say 1 contaminated item & the rest uncontaminated, the scent would likely spread around & transfer to other items of clothing.
Christ! If you laid them clothes out all at once & brought the dog in, he could be overwhelmed, he might not know where to start, he could get carried away, pick up some clothes in his mouth then snap his head back & start barking.
Don't you find it odd that all the clothes to which he reacted came from the same box?
Going from memory... I still haven't worked out why the first item that he was interested in and threw up in the air was a tiny pair of blue shorts (not on the list), followed by the tiny red T-shirt that was on the list, followed by Kate's checkered trousers (thrown up in the air), but not her white blouse (which he just nuzzled, but which is on the list). And going around, much nuzzling and barking, and finally throwing up a large man-sized T-shirt - which didn't appear on the list either.
The list made no sense to me.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 05:17:45 PM
I imagine if you were to load up a washing machine with say 1 contaminated item & the rest uncontaminated, the scent would likely spread around & transfer to other items of clothing.
Christ! If you laid them clothes out all at once & brought the dog in, he could be overwhelmed, he might not know where to start, he could get carried away, pick up some clothes in his mouth then snap his head back & start barking.
So why didn't Eddie go doolally. Or may be he did. He wasn't very well behaved.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 05:19:00 PM
Yes, a creation of Patricia Cornwell, who is, or was a forensic scientist.
As for the carpet squares. For how long had the bodies been dead? And did they wash the carpet squares and then test?
I agree that cross contamination will occur, but it is much more complicated. Although one might wonder why all of The McCann clothing wasn't contaminated if cross contamination was the case.
I would need to check, but I think the PMI was 3 hours.
Here is the critical bit:
The two bodies were placed in a supine position on top of a new and clean table and a separate table was used for each individual. A cotton blanket was wrapped around each body to preclude the direct contamination of the carpet squares with the bodies while at the same time simulating a thin layer of clothing covering each individual. A total of 32 carpet squares were placed subsequently underneath the backside of the torsos. Within 45 min of the arrival at the institute, 24 carpet squares (body A) were ‘‘contaminated’’ for 10 min during three consecutive sessions. Within 15 min of arriving at the institute, eight other carpet squares (body B) were contaminated for 2 min during two subsequent sessions. Additionally, living individuals who denied having had any contact with deceased tissues served as control subjects and contaminated an additional eight carpet squares. Immediately following the contamination, the carpet squares were placed into airtight glass jars and brought to the Police Dog Training Center (LPS 36) at the Hamburg State Police Department
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2014, 05:24:07 PM
Gerry spent some hours in the Paynes apartment after vacating 5A. With such heavily/freshly contaminated clothing, one wonders why no trace of cross contamination was found by Eddie on any of the furniture in that particular apartment.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
Why didn't Grime have a list of the clothing items to which Eddie reacted??
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 05:27:44 PM
Gerry spent some hours in the Paynes apartment after vacating 5A. With such heavily/freshly contaminated clothing, one wonders why no trace of cross contamination was found by Eddie on any of the furniture in that particular apartment.
Yes, good point.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Benice on August 05, 2014, 05:35:21 PM
Don't you find it odd that all the clothes to which he reacted came from the same box?
Going from memory... I still haven't worked out why the first item that he was interested in and threw up in the air was a tiny pair of blue shorts (not on the list), followed by the tiny red T-shirt that was on the list, followed by Kate's checkered trousers (thrown up in the air), but not her white blouse (which he just nuzzled, but which is on the list). And going around, much nuzzling and barking, and finally throwing up a large man-sized T-shirt - which didn't appear on the list either.
The list made no sense to me.
It was Martin Grime who noticed and commented on the fact that the articles alerted to all came out of the same box. Although he doesn't say why he thought that fact should be recorded.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 05:43:10 PM
It was Martin Grime who noticed and commented on the fact that the articles alerted to all came out of the same box. Although he doesn't say why he thought that fact should be recorded.
I knew they'd come out of the same box.
But I wasn't aware Grime himself commented on that ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2014, 05:43:47 PM
It was Martin Grime who noticed and commented on the fact that the articles alerted to all came out of the same box. Although he doesn't say why he thought that fact should be recorded.
You might be right, I haven't double-checked on that recently.
What I find more bizarre is... why didn't he have a list of what Eddie was supposed to have reacted to, given that he is the only person who can interpret his behaviour?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 05:47:59 PM
You might be right, I haven't double-checked on that recently.
What I find more bizarre is... why didn't he have a list of what Eddie was supposed to have reacted to, given that he is the only person who can interpret his behaviour?
Probably because Keela was deployed first without reacting, making deployment of Eddie redundant.
Perhaps the more pertinent question is, why was Eddie deployed at all?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2014, 05:48:54 PM
Did Grime have any background experience of Eddie alerting to clothing... or was this a tentatively new skill?
Either way, I still don't understand why Grime didn't have a list of the supposed items in question.
Was it left up to the PJ/GNR to interpret Eddie's alerts?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Eleanor on August 05, 2014, 05:50:26 PM
I would need to check, but I think the PMI was 3 hours.
Here is the critical bit:
The two bodies were placed in a supine position on top of a new and clean table and a separate table was used for each individual. A cotton blanket was wrapped around each body to preclude the direct contamination of the carpet squares with the bodies while at the same time simulating a thin layer of clothing covering each individual. A total of 32 carpet squares were placed subsequently underneath the backside of the torsos. Within 45 min of the arrival at the institute, 24 carpet squares (body A) were ‘‘contaminated’’ for 10 min during three consecutive sessions. Within 15 min of arriving at the institute, eight other carpet squares (body B) were contaminated for 2 min during two subsequent sessions. Additionally, living individuals who denied having had any contact with deceased tissues served as control subjects and contaminated an additional eight carpet squares. Immediately following the contamination, the carpet squares were placed into airtight glass jars and brought to the Police Dog Training Center (LPS 36) at the Hamburg State Police Department
Thanks for that. But can cadaver odour be eliminated by a washing machine cycle? Or two? Or three?
Three months had passed before the dogs were employed, and even I wash my clothes from time to time.
You see, I just don't believe that Eddie was reacting to cadaver odour.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 05:57:25 PM
Three months had passed before the dogs were employed, and even I wash my clothes from time to time.
That is the key part.
Not you washing your clothes, but what was the point of any it (in PdL, oh dear ...)
I think there was a point, that lay very far afield.
I choose to remain cryptic, for the moment ...
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on August 05, 2014, 06:14:55 PM
Thanks for that. But can cadaver odour be eliminated by a washing machine cycle? Or two? Or three?
Three months had passed before the dogs were employed, and even I wash my clothes from time to time.
You see, I just don't believe that Eddie was reacting to cadaver odour.
Absolutely agreed.
And principles of cross-contamination were just ignored by the way clothes were transported to the gym, in bog-standard cardboard boxes.
Small wonder Harrison summarised both inspections at the gym and at the villa as PJ exercises, with no elaboration.
And why, after the inspection at the gym, he gave PJ personnel translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles ...
Harrison's summary of searches:
The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
Mark Harrison.
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on October 20, 2016, 02:29:28 PM
The thread is over two years old.
The question remains pertinent.
Police conduct enquiries, always, with the hope of achieving something that will further a criminal enquiry.
Often (perhaps, more often than not) that hope will be thwarted and nothing of worth to an enquiry will be revealed or uncovered.
But there will always be hope of achieving something worthwhile to an enquiry.
We know that all that actually came from the inspection in the gym was the canard of 'death-scent on Kate's clothes'.
But what was it hoped might be achieved?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: ferryman on October 21, 2016, 06:31:56 AM
Any takers?
Title: Re: The inspection of the McCann's clothing by dogs Keela and Eddie in the gym.
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 21, 2016, 06:58:06 AM