Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 02:01:07 PM
Title: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 02:01:07 PM
ATTRACTA HARRON. - EDDIE (EVRD)
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. A missing person search did not reveal her whereabouts. The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA. The enquiry then concentrated it's efforts on the suspect and the EVRD located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the EVRD alerted in the front bedroom of the offender's empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had laid in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 02:04:47 PM
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. A missing person search did not reveal her whereabouts. The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA. The enquiry then concentrated it's efforts on the suspect and the EVRD located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the EVRD alerted in the front bedroom of the offender's empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had laid in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
Certainly within his probable 90% maximum reliability.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Certainly within his probable 90% maximum reliability.
Make that 100% as he's never alerted to a false positive.
"'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal." (M. Grime)
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 02:17:48 PM
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. A missing person search did not reveal her whereabouts. The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA. The enquiry then concentrated it's efforts on the suspect and the EVRD located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a location where the EVRD alerted in the front bedroom of the offender's empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had laid in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.
The point of greatest relevance to Praia da Luz from the Attracta Haron case is the unwisdom of inspecting 10 vehicles simultaneously.
Just as there actually was an innocent scent in the Renault Eddie finally reacted to, so there might easily have been innocent scents in any of the other 9 cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.
(Yet another!) example of Grime's lack of professionalism.
And also (no doubt) the reason why Harrison disowned participation in that exercise altogether.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 02:25:51 PM
Really so calling a professional "incompetent" with no professional or academic knowledge with which to underpin such an accusation doesn't amount to libel?
LOL, ok....
grime appears to have the professional and academic knowledge.
But his practice is shot ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 02:27:51 PM
grime appears to have the professional and academic knowledge.
But his practice is shot ...
Oops, you just can't help yourself. More libel, you just can't stop can you, even though you have no idea what you are talking about because you are simply a layman with a search engine and have none of the years of expertise, qualifications and training that Grimes has.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 02:29:44 PM
Who's Grimes?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 03:35:47 PM
The point of greatest relevance to Praia da Luz from the Attracta Haron case is the unwisdom of inspecting 10 vehicles simultaneously.
Just as there actually was an innocent scent in the Renault Eddie finally reacted to, so there might easily have been innocent scents in any of the other 9 cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.
(Yet another!) example of Grime's lack of professionalism.
And also (no doubt) the reason why Harrison disowned participation in that exercise altogether.
I don't understand this at all. That is fair and unbiased and if scent was coming from any other car he would've found it. The Renault Scenic wasn't the first to be checked and If they did it separate you would be saying Eddie may have had an off day on the other cars. What nonsense!
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 03:39:03 PM
pathfinder73:
I don't understand this at all.
Indubitably!
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 03:40:54 PM
How wasn't it fair and unbiased? 10 cars checked and Renault Scenic wasn't the first but when he went to the other side of the scenic he found the scent in the air and was chasing after it and he located the source on that same side coming from the bottom of the door where he barked.
"If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark."
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Albertini on December 06, 2013, 03:41:32 PM
And here's the fundamental issue both with Ferryman's continued self promotion as some kind of expert on EVRD and Roger's questions in this thread.
Posters are forming opinions on Grime, his methods and the reliability of his dogs on the basis of reading his reports from the files added with other disparate reports from him and other EVRD handlers and attempting to form some definitive conclusions.
However without the technical, professional or academic knowledge you simply cannot attempt to fill in the gaps and draw the dots together to create a whole picture.
The information needed to make sense of it all and pull all his methods and the information together simply isn't there and other than him coming on the forum and answering any and all questions, whilst anyone can attempt to join the dots themselves, they do so at their peril because they simply do not have the expertise to pronounce authoritatively on him or the subject.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 03:44:55 PM
And here's the fundamental issue both with Ferryman's continued self promotion as some kind of expert on EVRD and Roger's questions in this thread.
Posters are forming opinions on Grime, his methods and the reliability of his dogs on the basis of reading his reports from the files added with other disparate reports from him and other EVRD handlers and attempting to form some definitive conclusions.
However without the technical, professional or academic knowledge you simply cannot attempt to fill in the gaps and draw the dots together to create a whole picture.
The information needed to make sense of it all and pull all his methods and the information together simply isn't there and other than him coming on the forum and answering any and all questions, whilst anyone can attempt to join the dots themselves, they do so at their peril because they simply do not have the expertise to pronounce authoritatively on him or the subject.
sic:
... and other EVRD handlers
Interesting.
Care to provide us with a list of who, aside from Grime, are the other EVRD handlers?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
I don't understand this at all. That is fair and unbiased and if scent was coming from any other car he would've found it. The Renault Scenic wasn't the first to be checked and If they did it separate you would be saying Eddie may have had an off day on the other cars. What nonsense!
Grime called Eddie back to the car NINE times (maximum for other vehicles TWO) and spent six times longer encouraging Eddie to react than he did on any other vehicle. It was covered in Find Madeleine Posters, unlike the other vehicles. It would be wonderful to see him questioned under oath about why he had Eddie spend so much time and effort on the vehicle that Grime knew was the McCanns!
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Rogerandout on December 06, 2013, 04:25:23 PM
How wasn't it fair and unbiased? 10 cars checked and Renault Scenic wasn't the first but when he went to the other side of the scenic he found the scent in the air and was chasing after it and he located the source on that same side coming from the bottom of the door where he barked.
"If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark."
See my post above.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 05:17:54 PM
Rogerandout, Grime knows when his dog behaviour changes and he is onto something. He knew Eddie had found the scent which anyone can see from the footage. He called Eddie back because the scent could be found in this car where the dogs behaviour changed. Eddie found the scent at the bottom of the door and barked not Grime.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 05:21:23 PM
Grime knows when his dog behaviour changes and he is onto something.
Even if the something is only specs of Gerry's blood ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 05:32:47 PM
Grime knows when his dog behaviour changes and he is onto something.
Even if the something is only specs of Gerry's blood ...
Did Gerry travel in the boot? The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the boot area.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 06, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
Did Gerry travel in the boot? The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the boot area.
No.
And neither did Eddie react to the boot.
But Keela did.
Blood but no cadaver scent.
(Assuming Keela's alert was not a false one) ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 06, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent on the outside of the car. That's Eddie's job. Keela has to go in very close to sniff out blood and she freezes, she doesn't bark.
Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour, examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having been verified the following result: 15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry and Kate McCann. Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result: 03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage compartment of the car; 04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door, which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company. In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park. At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand. At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle. At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.... the present document has been duly signed:
I have read the whole of your post, but choose to hilight this part.
Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent on the outside of the car.
Eddie was reacting to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car (an accurate alert confirmed in the laboratories).
Eddie barked because it was cadaver odour coming out from the car. Keela freezes when finding microscopic blood. Do you notice the difference between the dog alerts?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Benice on December 07, 2013, 02:44:07 AM
Eddie barked because it was cadaver odour coming out from the car. Keela freezes when finding microscopic blood. Do you notice the difference between the dog alerts?
Not necessarily true. Eddie barked because he recognised a scent coming from the car. His handler had no way of knowing whether Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent, or to blood from a dead person or to blood from a living person because Eddie alerted to all three.
Keela on the other hand was only trained to recognise blood. Therefore wherever Keela alerted - Grime could presume that her alert was because she had detected blood - and nothing else. This was proved when both dogs alerted to the key fob which turned out to have Gerry's DNA on it. Gerry is alive and kicking and therefore the alert by Eddie could not have been to cadaverscent, but to blood - backed up by Keela who only alerted to blood.
According to Martin Grime and all other experts in this field - cadavour odour does not emanate ONLY from dead people This is why people who claim someone must have died in apartment 5a for Eddie to alert are wrong.
Those people who keep claiming that Pros are rubbishing M.Grime and his dogs, could not be more wrong. In fact the opposite is true. Pro's claims are based on what Martin Grime tells us about his dogs and their abilities. It clearly is the Sceptics who disagree with him - to the point of saying that because Eddie alerted, then someone must have died in Apartment 5A. M. Grime gives many reasons why that may not be the case - all of which are ignored by the Sceptics.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 07, 2013, 06:33:01 AM
I don't understand this at all. That is fair and unbiased and if scent was coming from any other car he would've found it. The Renault Scenic wasn't the first to be checked and If they did it separate you would be saying Eddie may have had an off day on the other cars. What nonsense!
Yes he really found something didnt he, very strong scent he was sniffing the air worrying about where it was coming from.
The handler did the correct procedure and took the dog back to the car closest to where he indicated.
Again i have a friend who has trained dogs since 1970 not scent dogs per se, but dogs for blind, commercials, or kinds of things, and I sent her the video of Eddie and the car, and she told me there was NOTHING in it that showed her that the handler was making the dog do anything. She told me the indication by the dog was really strong so the scent must have been too. She told me it is very rare for one of these highly skilled dogs to get it wrong, and they are constantly tested. IF they fail they dont use them again.
Still i can say all this but to the Pros its just blah blah blah...they are not interested in the truth only their own agendas.
The dogs never lie and thats the only truth we need.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2013, 09:31:34 AM
Yes he really found something didnt he, very strong scent he was sniffing the air worrying about where it was coming from.
The handler did the correct procedure and took the dog back to the car closest to where he indicated.
Again i have a friend who has trained dogs since 1970 not scent dogs per se, but dogs for blind, commercials, or kinds of things, and I sent her the video of Eddie and the car, and she told me there was NOTHING in it that showed her that the handler was making the dog do anything. She told me the indication by the dog was really strong so the scent must have been too. She told me it is very rare for one of these highly skilled dogs to get it wrong, and they are constantly tested. IF they fail they dont use them again.
Still i can say all this but to the Pros its just blah blah blah...they are not interested in the truth only their own agendas.
The dogs never lie and thats the only truth we need.
As I have said before, no one on this forum has the knowledge to make any interpretation of the dogs evidence. You are simply deluding yourself. I accept implicitly Grimes conclusion and he is the expert.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Montclair on December 07, 2013, 09:57:27 AM
Why did the McCanns leave the door to the boot of the car open for a couple of days and nights just before the dogs were to be used?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2013, 10:32:23 AM
Eddie barked because it was cadaver odour coming out from the car. Keela freezes when finding microscopic blood. Do you notice the difference between the dog alerts?
If you read the files (and no, I can't be bothered to pull out the reference) the ignition key was taken out of the car, placed inside a sand box and buried for Eddie to alert to a second time.
Eddie did so, confirming the provenance of his alert [to the car] as the ignition key.
The key was sent to the forensic laboratories and Gerry's DNA was retrieved.
There was no 'cadaver scent' in the Renault.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2013, 10:49:41 AM
If you read the files (and no, I can't be bothered to pull out the reference) the ignition key was taken out of the car, placed inside a sand box and buried for Eddie to alert to a second time.
Eddie did so, confirming the provenance of his alert [to the car] as the ignition key.
The key was sent to the forensic laboratories and Gerry's DNA was retrieved.
There was no 'cadaver scent' in the Renault.
So there IS no evidence Maddie was ever transported in the car...in fact you could say there is evidence that she was never transported in the car
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2013, 10:50:55 AM
Not necessarily true. Eddie barked because he recognised a scent coming from the car. His handler had no way of knowing whether Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent, or to blood from a dead person or to blood from a living person because Eddie alerted to all three.
Keela on the other hand was only trained to recognise blood. Therefore wherever Keela alerted - Grime could presume that her alert was because she had detected blood - and nothing else. This was proved when both dogs alerted to the key fob which turned out to have Gerry's DNA on it. Gerry is alive and kicking and therefore the alert by Eddie could not have been to cadaverscent, but to blood - backed up by Keela who only alerted to blood.
According to Martin Grime and all other experts in this field - cadavour odour does not emanate ONLY from dead people This is why people who claim someone must have died in apartment 5a for Eddie to alert are wrong.
Those people who keep claiming that Pros are rubbishing M.Grime and his dogs, could not be more wrong. In fact the opposite is true. Pro's claims are based on what Martin Grime tells us about his dogs and their abilities. It clearly is the Sceptics who disagree with him - to the point of saying that because Eddie alerted, then someone must have died in Apartment 5A. M. Grime gives many reasons why that may not be the case - all of which are ignored by the Sceptics.
Well, thats not what the handler said in his report, they are just your words...his words regarding the car alert were the EVRD alert is suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant or blood when he wrote his report after all the searches in PDL.....
You have no way of knowing that Eddie did not alert to the scent of cadaver coming out the car door seal and also react to the key fob for blood when screened separately in the sand box by both dogs....and please dont make sweeping generlisations about what skeptics believe ignore or dont ignore...not everyne believes a body was in that car...
eta and again, if Grime presumed where both dogs alert it must be blood, then how could he allow for the possibility of one alerting to a dead body remnant scent and the other alerting to bleeding before death.....he couldnt so he cannot presume anything like that as you keep suggesting
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 07, 2013, 11:02:15 AM
Well, thats not what the handler said in his report, they are just your words...his words regarding the car alert were the EVRD alert is suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant or blood when he wrote his report after all the searches in PDL.....
You have no way of knowing that Eddie did not alert to the scent of cadaver coming out the car door seal and also react to the key fob for blood when screened separately in the sand box by both dogs....and please dont make sweeping generlisations about what skeptics believe ignore or dont ignore...not everyne believes a body was in that car...
It is clear that when Grime says that it could be blood or cadaver no court would accept that this was evidence of cadaver scent...get a grip of reality...the words "could be" would never be acceptable to any court..can you imagine Grime in court...could be...could be not
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 07, 2013, 12:24:47 PM
It is clear that when Grime says that it could be blood or cadaver no court would accept that this was evidence of cadaver scent...get a grip of reality...the words "could be" would never be acceptable to any court..can you imagine Grime in court...could be...could be not
Eddie alerted to Gerry's blood.
Gerry is alive
It really is that simple.
Eddie did not alert to the boot.
Keela alerted to the boot.
So either there was blood in the mix from the boot or Keela false-alerted.
Of course, if there was blood in the mix from the boot, Eddie should have reacted to it.
Eddie did not ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 01:13:26 AM
Imagine if the dogs had alerted at Murat's or his car. It would be most interesting to read the comments here 8)-)))
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: John on December 08, 2013, 01:45:38 AM
Imagine if the dogs had alerted at Murat's or his car. It would be most interesting to read the comments here 8)-)))
The dog wasn't allowed long enough to alert at any other car having been called back to a certain silver Renault Scenic (the target) several times. Gives a whole new meaning to fair and impartial testing.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 01:58:49 AM
The dog wasn't allowed long enough to alert at any other car having been called back to a certain silver Renault Scenic (the target) several times. Gives a whole new meaning to fair and impartial testing.
Wasn't that because the dog's behaviour changed when it passed the Renault and Eddie had found the scent and was chasing it with his nose in the air? So Eddie was brought back to the car because that's where his behaviour changed.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: John on December 08, 2013, 02:19:41 AM
Surely his behaviour changed when he reacted to the wall? If I remember correctly Eddie walked round and passed the car several times and only showed an interest when his handler called him back.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 06:35:35 AM
Surely his behaviour changed when he reacted to the wall? If I remember correctly Eddie walked round and passed the car several times and only showed an interest when his handler called him back.
It does look confusing. BUT the dog was scenting the air between the renault and the other car parked.
OK. Say for arguements sake, there was cadaver scent on the Renault. The cars were brought into the car parking area, and parked. Now for all we know that car could have been parked CLOSER to the other car, where the dog was sniffing the air.
Perhaps the car was not in the right place so was moved a bit further away. Either way the car was driven along that area in front of the bays, SO THE DOG was sniffing the air. Lay people who do not work with dogs would think the dog was being prompted, that is not the case. I had it all explained to me by my K9 friend.
Like I said the cars had to be DRIVEN in and some of the scent if it was strong could have been transferred to that area.
The dog clearly scented something from the Renault. This is what the dogs do, their heads go up to find to the source. Grimes had to bring the dog back into focus. Whether it was scenting cadavar between the Renault or not we have no clue, but they do go off on trails and need bringing back to the task in hand. All they know is they must find the scent, they dont know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.
IF you watch the video, Grimes makes the dog check EACH car, NOT just the Renault.
No the dog was on a trail maybe nothing to do with the case, but when brought back to do the task he indicated on the door.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Benice on December 08, 2013, 08:53:30 AM
It does look confusing. BUT the dog was scenting the air between the renault and the other car parked.
OK. Say for arguements sake, there was cadaver scent on the Renault. The cars were brought into the car parking area, and parked. Now for all we know that car could have been parked CLOSER to the other car, where the dog was sniffing the air.
Perhaps the car was not in the right place so was moved a bit further away. Either way the car was driven along that area in front of the bays, SO THE DOG was sniffing the air. Lay people who do not work with dogs would think the dog was being prompted, that is not the case. I had it all explained to me by my K9 friend.
Like I said the cars had to be DRIVEN in and some of the scent if it was strong could have been transferred to that area.
The dog clearly scented something from the Renault. This is what the dogs do, their heads go up to find to the source. Grimes had to bring the dog back into focus. Whether it was scenting cadavar between the Renault or not we have no clue, but they do go off on trails and need bringing back to the task in hand. All they know is they must find the scent, they dont know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track.
IF you watch the video, Grimes makes the dog check EACH car, NOT just the Renault.
No the dog was on a trail maybe nothing to do with the case, but when brought back to do the task he indicated on the door.
The video says differently. Eddie didn't even do a complete circuit of one of the cars (car no 2 or 3) before he moved on to the next one, with Grime making no attempt at all to call him back.
It was Grime's behaviour and body language which changed when it came to the Renault not Eddies. Eddie showed no more interest in that car than any other - but instead of following him when he ran away from it - Grime stayed with the Renault and repeatedly called Eddie back to it. He did not do that with any other car.
Eddie proved that it took over two minutes and a great deal of encouragement from his handler before he finally 'homed in' on the scent of Gerry's blood on the key fob. If he had been allowed to move away from the Renault after 30 seconds - (which was the max time spent on any of the other cars) - then the result would have been the same as for those cars - i.e. no alert from Eddie to the Renault in that short timescale. That is a fact - proved by the video.
Conversely no-one can say what the outcome would have been with the other cars if the same length of time and the same amount of encouragement had been given to 'searching' those cars to the dog. Maybe after 2 mins other alerts would also have resulted.
The only car Keela was put in was the Renault. To ensure the search was 'fair and unbiased' she should have been put into every car IMO.
Also if as you claim Eddie was alerting to a scent between TWO cars - then why didn't Grime treat both cars the same? Why completely ignore one and give so much attention to the other?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 12:09:49 PM
The video says differently. Eddie didn't even do a complete circuit of one of the cars (car no 2 or 3) before he moved on to the next one, with Grime making no attempt at all to call him back.
It was Grime's behaviour and body language which changed when it came to the Renault not Eddies. Eddie showed no more interest in that car than any other - but instead of following him when he ran away from it - Grime stayed with the Renault and repeatedly called Eddie back to it. He did not do that with any other car.
Eddie proved that it took over two minutes and a great deal of encouragement from his handler before he finally 'homed in' on the scent of Gerry's blood on the key fob. If he had been allowed to move away from the Renault after 30 seconds - (which was the max time spent on any of the other cars) - then the result would have been the same as for those cars - i.e. no alert from Eddie to the Renault in that short timescale. That is a fact - proved by the video.
Conversely no-one can say what the outcome would have been with the other cars if the same length of time and the same amount of encouragement had been given to 'searching' those cars to the dog. Maybe after 2 mins other alerts would also have resulted.
The only car Keela was put in was the Renault. To ensure the search was 'fair and unbiased' she should have been put into every car IMO.
Also if as you claim Eddie was alerting to a scent between TWO cars - then why didn't Grime treat both cars the same? Why completely ignore one and give so much attention to the other?
He did actually.
IF you look again. The dog was brought back to the REnault because it was from that area he indicated jeez how hard is it to make people understand. The dog had gone off trail, could scent something, but had not completed the task at hand, so was brought back to the Renault.
Your sumisiation is that Grimes did a FRAUDANTLY check because he knew the Renault was the McCanns. This is highly unlikely to be the case.
You are not an expert on K9 matters, nor am I so i asked a friend who is. The search was handled correctly. So many people have seen this on utube, IF there was any thoughts of fraud do you think Grimes would be working with the FBI now.
I would be very careful what I wrote on here.
He might be joining us shortly.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 08, 2013, 12:15:27 PM
Surely his behaviour changed when he reacted to the wall? If I remember correctly Eddie walked round and passed the car several times and only showed an interest when his handler called him back.
I noticed the fan on the wall. It was off during the screening, but when was it turned off? Were the cars parked up prior to the fan being switched off? Could the suction of the fan have made the scent drift from the car along the wall towards the fan?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 08, 2013, 12:54:19 PM
For the sake of correctness can everyone please note that the handlers name is Martin Grime.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Benice on December 08, 2013, 01:35:39 PM
IF you look again. The dog was brought back to the REnault because it was from that area he indicated jeez how hard is it to make people understand. The dog had gone off trail, could scent something, but had not completed the task at hand, so was brought back to the Renault.
Your sumisiation is that Grimes did a FRAUDANTLY check because he knew the Renault was the McCanns. This is highly unlikely to be the case. You are not an expert on K9 matters, nor am I so i asked a friend who is. The search was handled correctly. So many people have seen this on utube, IF there was any thoughts of fraud do you think Grimes would be working with the FBI now.
I would be very careful what I wrote on here.
He might be joining us shortly.
I think you must have me mixed up with someone else. I have never once used the word fraudulent or even hinted at fraud. I do have an opinion on 'unconscious cueing' - which I do not consider to be a crime, but a human failing which dog handlers can unwittingly develop and which has been proved to happen by testing.
IMO The only 'expertise' a reasonably intelligent person needs to learn about sniffer dogs, is the ability to read.
I have read up on what Martin Grime has said - and as an expert in his field I accept what he says regarding the amazing abilities of his dogs. However, he is human and therefore not immune from the same human frailties that other dog handlers, nor in fact - the rest of us a human beings are.
I believe it was Martin Grime who said ''People cannot be right 100% of the time otherwise they would not be human'' - when asked questions about his Jersey assignment.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 08, 2013, 02:04:10 PM
Your sumisiation is that Grimes did a FRAUDANTLY check because he knew the Renault was the McCanns. This is highly unlikely to be the case.
Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison. Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ? People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ? Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ? Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone. And this is very right : All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track. Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 02:20:26 PM
Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison. Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ? People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ? Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ? Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone. And this is very right : All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track. Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.
From the report of the GNR dog handlers:
...it being appropriate for the handler not to know which apartment was chosen, so as not the be conditioned.
The GNR handlers knew all about the risks of bias influencing a handler's jdugment and interaction with his dog, and took precautions against that.
Why didn't Grime?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Anna on December 08, 2013, 02:23:52 PM
Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison. Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ? People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ? Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ? Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone. And this is very right : All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track. Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.
I think you must have me mixed up with someone else. I have never once used the word fraudulent or even hinted at fraud. I do have an opinion on 'unconscious cueing' - which I do not consider to be a crime, but a human failing which dog handlers can unwittingly develop and which has been proved to happen by testing.
IMO The only 'expertise' a reasonably intelligent person needs to learn about sniffer dogs, is the ability to read.
I have read up on what Martin Grime has said - and as an expert in his field I accept what he says regarding the amazing abilities of his dogs. However, he is human and therefore not immune from the same human frailties that other dog handlers, nor in fact - the rest of us a human beings are.
I believe it was Martin Grime who said ''People cannot be right 100% of the time otherwise they would not be human'' - when asked questions about his Jersey assignment.
Good post Benice.
Certainly Grime's claim to have taken his cue from the dog as to which was the principal car of interest in the line-up of 10 is at odds with the evidence of the video of that search.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 02:45:37 PM
Certainly Grime's claim to have taken his cue from the dog as to which was the principal car of interest in the line-up of 10 is at odds with the evidence of the video of that search.
"Certainly"? >@@(*&)
Can you explain then why the McCanns chose to take legal action against a writer and not against the people whose actions created the suspicion in the first place?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 02:52:30 PM
I can answer for you if you like 8)-)))
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 02:55:51 PM
Can you explain then why the McCanns chose to take legal action against a writer and not against the people whose actions created the suspicion in the first place?
Simple.
Grime has never (to my knowledge) discussed the Madeleine investigation outside the confines of the official enquiry, and has certainly never written a book about it.
If Amaral had done the same, he'd be fine ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 08, 2013, 03:00:54 PM
Had Grime exercised true professionalism he would have insisted that the cars were not identified as having been used by a particular suspect. We have all seen how the McCann's Grand Scenic hire car was parked away in the corner with Find Madeleine posters stuck in the rear windows. Hardly an impartial exercise was it!
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 03:10:58 PM
Grime has never (to my knowledge) discussed the Madeleine investigation outside the confines of the official enquiry, and has certainly never written a book about it.
If Amaral had done the same, he'd be fine ...
But you're suggesting (in fact you're doing more than that when you use the word "certainly") that all was not as it seemed with the August dog searches.
The McCanns wrote a few insulting lines in the book, but did nothing more than that. Why, ferryman? The impact of Mr Amaral's book was dwarfed by the much earlier impact of the newspapers, and most if not all of the newspaper frenzy would never have happened without those dog searches. Yet they took action against the newspapers (UK ones that is, not the Portuguese) and not against Mr Grime.
Why did the McCanns never do what you do every single day, ferryman?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Carana on December 08, 2013, 03:19:11 PM
Had Grime exercised true professionalism he would have insisted that the cars were not identified as having been used by a particular suspect. We have all seen how the McCann's Grand Scenic hire car was parked away in the corner with Find Madeleine posters stuck in the rear windows. Hardly an impartial exercise was it!
To be fair, he may have wished that he hadn't known that 5A was where she apparently disappeared from or that the Scenic was the parents' car. I find it difficult to imagine that he wasn't aware of the key locations at the time. If he had been, "cueing" (which may just be the dog picking up on the handler's behaviour to concentrate on specific areas) might have been excluded.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 08, 2013, 03:33:08 PM
How many times was it that he called Eddie back? Eddie must have thought to himself, shit...got to do something here or no supper.
I would have been curious to know if he had done the same to the other suspects cars would he also have reacted??
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on December 08, 2013, 03:54:07 PM
Even if it was "unconscious", it is fraud since Mr Grime was supervised by Prof. Harrison. Would Prof. Harrison have cheated the PJ ? But why ? People don't do things unconsciously without a strong motive. What would be the motive of both Mr Grime and Prof Harrison ? Why would they risk to destroy the high credit of the dogs ? Instead of arbitrarily suspect Mr Grime and Prof Harrison of cueing and tolerance to cueing, respectively, it would be more interesting to try and understand what is a scent cone. And this is very right : All they (the dogs) know is they must find the scent, they don't know they have to sniff each car, its the handlers job to keep them on track. Once they're in the scent cone (and often many crossing scent cones), the exhausting work is to determinate the source of it. Helping is one of the handler's tasks.
Exactly this is what I keep trying to tell people.
Its like having an operator with a model airplane, you send it right, left etc or straight, the same with the dog. You have to keep it on focus when it picks up the scent.
Its a total waste of time really though trying to get people to understand this lol.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 04:16:30 PM
I noticed the fan on the wall. It was off during the screening, but when was it turned off? Were the cars parked up prior to the fan being switched off? Could the suction of the fan have made the scent drift from the car along the wall towards the fan?
A great point WS. Its what i was trying to say as well. We have no idea how the cars were arranged prior to the test starting.
Where the wall was where the dog was indicating, (actually it started right by the pillar next to the car) the car could have been there first we dont no the position of them at the start do we.
Scent travels. Like i said the car has to be driven and if the scent was strong enough it would be picked up by the dog in several places which was confusing it, until Mr Grimes sent it back to the car. He had NO IDEA the dog would indicate there did he. To think otherwise would be a libel case.
Ridiculous. Anyway the dog indicated in apartment and villa etc so it wasnt surprising for me it indicated in the car either.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 04:17:24 PM
Had Grime exercised true professionalism he would have insisted that the cars were not identified as having been used by a particular suspect. We have all seen how the McCann's Grand Scenic hire car was parked away in the corner with Find Madeleine posters stuck in the rear windows. Hardly an impartial exercise was it!
The car next to it also had posters on it.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 04:22:33 PM
How many times was it that he called Eddie back? Eddie must have thought to himself, shit...got to do something here or no supper.
I would have been curious to know if he had done the same to the other suspects cars would he also have reacted??
Your joking right?
There were no SUSPECTS at the time who were having their cars checked were there?
The dog found a scent and was chasing it, the handler had to refocus the dog, and take it right back to where it first indicated, which was actually just by the pillar next to the Renault. Jeez its not rocket science. This testing was organised by the UK POLICE, nothing to do with PJ.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 04:29:40 PM
Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle placement video recording and management of the process was conducted by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family, the dog's behaviour changed substantially.
Martin Grime
And I am Nelson Mandela ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 04:42:48 PM
He did get one thing right. He had the ignition key forwarded to the forensic laboratory, where it was confirmed Eddie reacted to spots of Gerry's blood.
Though remembering, always, that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, what on earth made him suppose it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after her abduction, heaven only knows ...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Redblossom on December 08, 2013, 04:47:09 PM
He did get one thing right. He had the ignition key forwarded to the forensic laboratory, where it was confirmed Eddie reacted to spots of Gerry's blood.
Though remembering, always, that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, what on earth made him suppose it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after her abduction, heaven only knows ...
How nonsensical.
He is not employed to suppose anything, he does his job with his dogs and reports on findings, its up to the investigators to take it from there, forensically or otherwise, its as simple as that....but you cant even stop there can you? LOL, stating what he thought or didnt think suppose or didnt suppose @)(++(*
But thanks for confirming by your lack of response to my previous points that you have done and continue to do all those things.....
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 04:48:37 PM
He did get one thing right. He had the ignition key forwarded to the forensic laboratory, where it was confirmed Eddie reacted to spots of Gerry's blood.
Though remembering, always, that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, what on earth made him suppose it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after her abduction, heaven only knows ...
Because he's a professional, ferryman, and naturally they consider all possibilities.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 04:53:41 PM
Are you now going to start on Mark Harrison as he was the one.....unprofessional too? @)(++(*
Murat's Vehicles.
All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.
Mark Harrison.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 04:57:51 PM
Are you accusing Mark Harrison of not being a policeman?
ferry, every single one of your attempts to smear absolutely everyone involved in the case ignores the one, very unfortunate fact you want everyone to forget: the child is still missing, without a single clue pointing anywhere else.
What did you expect the police from both countries to do in 2007? Work logically, or emotionally like you do?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Redblossom on December 08, 2013, 05:06:07 PM
All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.
Mark Harrison.
Ah so you are right, MH doesnt mention the Mccann car, he only mentioned the Mccanns flat, still doesnt mean it was Grime's decision, does it?
I wonder why you assume that.....and how do you know MH didnt write any addendums or have conversations and further meetings with the PJ which changed the "search plan" and which arent in the files, you don't....
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 05:09:33 PM
Ah so you are right, MH doesnt mention the Mccann car, he only mentioned the Mccanns flat, still doesnt mean it was Grime's decision, does it?
I wonder why you assume that.....and how do you know MH didnt write any addendums or have conversations and further meetings with the PJ which changed the "search plan" and which arent in the files, you don't....
Harrison recommended that the dogs be deployed where Madeleine, either was known to have been or, conceivably, might have been.
He did not recommend searches anywhere were Madeleine was known, definitely, never to have been: the Renault Scenic, the villa or the gym.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Benita on December 08, 2013, 05:14:04 PM
all this chat about the woof woofs has been done to death ..and don't prove a jot ..so why keep going over the same old same old ... ?>)()<
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Redblossom on December 08, 2013, 05:15:49 PM
Harrison recommended that the dogs be deployed where Madeleine, either was known to have been or, conceivably, might have been.
He did not recommend searches anywhere were Madeleine was known, definitely, never to have been: the Renault Scenic, the villa or the gym.
You bypassed my question, you have a habit of this, dont worry, cant be bothered to argue....you can bang your drums to others....fact remains you accused grime of being unprofessional because he deployed the dog in the mccann car.....it wasnt his remit to decide.......far as I know.....thats it
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 05:17:53 PM
Harrison recommended that the dogs be deployed where Madeleine, either was known to have been or, conceivably, might have been.
He did not recommend searches anywhere were Madeleine was known, definitely, never to have been: the Renault Scenic, the villa or the gym.
Have you a link to Prof Harrison saying "I would advise not to search there and there" ? (He would have had an excellent reason to claim this : sparing the dogs). Do you remember where Prof Harrison recommended to send the dogs to ? Don't you think that the result could have slightly affect the next searches ?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 08, 2013, 05:37:08 PM
Have you a link to Prof Harrison saying "I would advise not to search there and there" ? (He would have had an excellent reason to claim this : sparing the dogs). Do you remember where Prof Harrison recommended to send the dogs to ? Don't you think that the result could have slightly affect the next searches ?
What an excellent point.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 05:56:36 PM
Have you a link to Prof Harrison saying "I would advise not to search there and there" ? (He would have had an excellent reason to claim this : sparing the dogs). Do you remember where Prof Harrison recommended to send the dogs to ? Don't you think that the result could have slightly affect the next searches ?
I have a link (I have produced before) of where Harrison distances British involvement from searches he had nothing to do with; and acknowledges British involvement in those searches he recommended:
The timeline of these searches was as follows:
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
Harrison recommended searches in: the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murat's place.
In all those searches, Harrison acknowledges UK canine input.
But none of the others.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 06:39:38 PM
There should be only one thing that matters here. Why the dog barks? And it's not because Martin Grime has called him back to the car.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 06:44:28 PM
If Madeleine had disappeared in Florida (or Orange County, Florida at least) and evidence of uncorroborated dog alerts had found their way into a trial (like in Casey Anthony's) they would not have been sufficient without other supporting evidence. As far as I know nobody here has ever argued otherwise.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:08:10 PM
It is the incompetent deployment of the dogs that led to unjust suspicion falling on Kate and Gerry that lingers, still, to this day.
That's why.
Yes, I know that's what you think, but you didn't answer my question from hours ago: why didn't the McCanns do anything about that, apart from write a few insulting lines in their book?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2013, 07:12:01 PM
If Madeleine had disappeared in Florida (or Orange County, Florida at least) and evidence of uncorroborated dog alerts had found their way into a trial (like in Casey Anthony's) they would not have been sufficient without other supporting evidence. As far as I know nobody here has ever argued otherwise.
You keep quoting tis but have failed to answer on numerous occasions...what do the dogs alert prove in these cases...you don't seem to have an answer
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:15:01 PM
It is the incompetent deployment of the dogs that led to unjust suspicion falling on Kate and Gerry that lingers, still, to this day.
That's why.
You know Mr Grime gave evidence in at least one trial since PdL, and at least one, separate pretrial - both in the US. Lawyers in both courtrooms will have been well aware of Mr Grime's past work, so can you show that any of them had any concerns about his work in Portugal?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:17:26 PM
Mr Grime has been in courtrooms, ferryman - since 2007. He's been tested. Yours theories about his performance haven't, and they have no credibility unless you can show experts or lawyers who share them.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:18:40 PM
You know Mr Grime gave evidence in at least one trial since PdL, and at least one, separate pretrial - both in the US. Lawyers in both courtrooms will have been well aware of Mr Grime's past work, so can you show that any of them had any concerns about his work in Portugal?
The American courts would have viewed the facts pertaining to the case they were trying and formed judgments based on that.
I very much doubt they would have studied, in detail, any cases he was involved in outside the States.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2013, 07:20:24 PM
Mr Grime has been in courtrooms, ferryman - since 2007. He's been tested. Yours theories about his performance haven't, and they have no credibility unless you can show experts or lawyers who share them.
if the dogs alert were allowed in court then grime would be called as a witness...what happens when he says the alerts are of no evidential value without corroborating evidence?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:20:35 PM
Mr Grime has been in courtrooms, ferryman - since 2007. He's been tested. Yours theories about his performance haven't, and they have no credibility unless you can show experts or lawyers who share them.
I dare say Roy Meadow has as well
And?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:21:23 PM
Yes, I know that's what you think, but you didn't answer my question from hours ago: why didn't the McCanns do anything about that, apart from write a few insulting lines in their book?
Could it be because he hasn't libelled them, and has made it clear that - without corroboration - alerts to cadaverscent are not evidence that a cadaver must have been present at that location.
It's other people who have decided that to be the case - not Grime.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:23:18 PM
The American courts would have viewed the facts pertaining to the case they were trying and formed judgments based on that.
I very much doubt they would have studied, in detail, any cases he was involved in outside the States.
Of course they would, that's their job, and it would take them seconds to find the PdL videos.
If they - that's lawyers and experts - thought there was a problem with the way Mr Grime conducted those searches they'd certainly mention it in the American courtrooms. They wanted dog alert evidence exclused from those trials, and they'd certainly use all weapons they had at their disposal.
It appears, however, from what we know, that they found nothing wrong with what Mr Grime did in Portugal.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2013, 07:24:42 PM
Of course they would, that's their job, and it would take them seconds to find the PdL videos.
If they - that's lawyers and experts - thought there was a problem with the way Mr Grime conducted those searches they'd certainly mention it in the American courtrooms. They wanted dog alert evidence exclused from those trials, and they'd certainly use all weapons they had at their disposal.
It appears, however, from what we know, that they found nothing wrong with what Mr Grime did in Portugal.
And what did the dogs evidence prove at the trial
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:28:02 PM
I answered numerous times: alerts demonstrate dogs have detected what they were trained to do.
But nobody - not even the most bullish American prosecutor - says that evidence is sufficient on its own. And as has rightly been said, if that was the only evidence the case would never make it to a trial.
So why you're so obsessed with the issue is beyond me, and that obsession stretches to outright libel in a few cases.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:29:56 PM
I answered numerous times: alerts demonstrate dogs have detected what they were trained to do.
But nobody - not even the most bullish American prosecutor - says that evidence is sufficient on its own. And as has rightly been said, if that was the only evidence the case would never make it to a trial.
So why you're so obsessed with the issue is beyond me, and that obsession stretches to outright libel in a few cases.
I think the same may not be true of Morse.
But in the main, cadaver dogs detect blood.
And Eddie detected it at PdL, yeah!
And?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:30:27 PM
You think they might have studied, in detail, Grime's disregard of such principles as cross-contamination and bias that can influence a handler's work and interaction with his dog?
And still employed him?
Interesting, if true ....
ferry, it's one of most high-profile cases in the world. Of course American lawyers and police are well aware of it, especially those who work with, or examine, Mr Grime.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 08, 2013, 07:31:35 PM
ferry, it's own of most high-profile cases in the world. Of course American lawyers and police are well aware of it, especially those who work with, or examine, Mr Grime.
The fine details?
Read the case files?
I doubt it.
If Grime had the UK training certificates renewed that indicate basic competence in handling a dog, they'd have gone with that.
Why do you suppose that in the Sam Parker case, Grime was required to demonstrate the competence of his dog by tasking him to find a sample pair of pants hidden somewhere in a county jail and laced with a cadaver scent?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:34:22 PM
And your obsession with the man is absurd. Unless you can demonstrate that questions about his work in Portugal were raised in either of those American courtrooms.
It would take the American lawyers seconds to find the PdL videos on google! Seconds.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:36:17 PM
And your obsession with the man is absurd. Unless you can demonstrate that questions about his work in Portugal were raised in either of those American courtrooms.
It would take the American lawyers seconds to find the PdL videos on google! Seconds.
I will ask again.
Why, in the Sam Parker case, was Grime required to demonstrate the basic competence of his dog by tasking him to find a sample pair of pants laced with a cadaver scent and hidden somewhere in the county jail?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Redblossom on December 08, 2013, 07:38:42 PM
And your obsession with the man is absurd. Unless you can demonstrate that questions about his work in Portugal were raised in either of those American courtrooms.
It would take the American lawyers seconds to find the PdL videos on google! Seconds.
Kate Mccann said she was relieved when the dog alerted...shes not bothered it seems, neither is Gerry as he says they are incredibly unreliable, , not sure why FM is...you have patience of a saint, will leave him in your capable hands @)(++(*
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:41:08 PM
Why, in the Sam Parker case, was Grime required to demonstrate the basic competence of his dog by tasking him to find a sample pair of pants laced with a cadaver scent and hidden somewhere in the county jail?
I'm quoting you, ferry:
Because it was incompetent deployment of the dogs that primarily led to unjust suspicion falling on the McCanns -- and incompetent deployment of the dogs that keeps that notion alive to the present day.
Do you have any evidence from those American courtrooms that anyone in the US thinks he is "incompetent"?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:42:19 PM
Because it was incompetent deployment of the dogs that primarily led to unjust suspicion falling on the McCanns -- and incompetent deployment of the dogs that keeps that notion alive to the present day.
Do you have any evidence from those American courtrooms that anyone in the US thinks he is "incompetent"?
I've not had access to the case files of those investigations.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2013, 07:45:27 PM
And your obsession with the man is absurd. Unless you can demonstrate that questions about his work in Portugal were raised in either of those American courtrooms.
It would take the American lawyers seconds to find the PdL videos on google! Seconds.
Im certainly not obsessed. Grime says the dogs alert have no evidential value...that's it as far as Im concerned, but posters keep raising the issue over and over again
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:47:08 PM
I've not had access to the case files of those investigations.
Then why are you smearing him day in day out here and elsewhere?
Mr Grime has been tested in courtrooms.
I keep asking you why the McCanns took no action - well, there's one answer: he has credibility from work before and after Portugal.
Your smears haven't.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 07:48:46 PM
Do you have an answer to my question?
Why, in the Sam Parker case, was Grime required to demonstrate the basic competency of his dog by tasking him to find a sample pair of pants laced with a cadaver scent?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: stephen25000 on December 08, 2013, 07:49:42 PM
Im certainly not obsessed. Grime says the dogs alert have no evidential value...that's it as far as Im concerned, but posters keep raising the issue over and over again
Well, ferryman does. And the other chap.
They are obsessed with Mr Grime, davel.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 08, 2013, 07:51:37 PM
Because it was incompetent deployment of the dogs that primarily led to unjust suspicion falling on the McCanns -- and incompetent deployment of the dogs that keeps that notion alive to the present day.
Do you have any evidence from those American courtrooms that anyone in the US thinks he is "incompetent"?
For me, what primarily led to my suspicion falling on the McCanns was common sense.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 07:53:18 PM
His attacks on Mr. Grime, do hint at some connection with the mccanns.
It is irrational behaviour.
8((()*/
ferryman knows more than the US police, experts and defence attorneys who have tested Mr Grime? Nah.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 08:00:02 PM
If, as a trained nurse, you present yourself at a nursing agency and apply for work, the agency will look, alone, at your qualifications, and if they match, will employ you. They won't look, in detail, at your track record.
Much the same for Grime presenting himself for work in the US. If accreditation for his dogs was up to date, they'd have taken him.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 08, 2013, 08:01:40 PM
There were no SUSPECTS at the time who were having their cars checked were there?
Really? Then why was Murat and Malinka's cars included?? Just for fun??
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 08:04:30 PM
Will add the link in an edit:
We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.
If, as a trained nurse, you present yourself at a nursing agency and apply for work, the agency will look, alone, at your qualifications, and if they match, will employ you. They won't look, in detail, at your track record.
Much the same for Grime presenting himself for work in the US. If accreditation for his dogs was up to date, they'd have taken him.
Yes, but the attorneys trying to exclude dog alert evidence from those two trials will definitely have used every tool at their disposal, including Mr Grime's work in Portugal (and the videos, if they saw anything wrong with them).
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 08, 2013, 08:09:25 PM
If, as a trained nurse, you present yourself at a nursing agency and apply for work, the agency will look, alone, at your qualifications, and if they match, will employ you. They won't look, in detail, at your track record.
Much the same for Grime presenting himself for work in the US. If accreditation for his dogs was up to date, they'd have taken him.
perhaps that's why grime has been so quiet about the alerts in pdl....not the dogs finest moment. The dogs are fantastic if there is something to find...they will find it...thats what makes them so valuable...but if theres nothing....
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 08:11:29 PM
Yes, but the attorneys trying to exclude dog alert evidence from those two trials will definitely have used every tool at their disposal, including Mr Grime's work in Portugal (and the videos, if they saw anything wrong with them).
Can you provide evidence of that?
So far as I am aware, it was general principles of acceptability or unacceptability of dog reactions as evidence that was the point of issue, not the track-record of handlers.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 08:15:19 PM
So far as I am aware, it was general principles of acceptability or unacceptability of dog reactions as evidence that was the point of issue, not the track-record of handlers.
If you look at the Casey Anthony trial, and pretrial, the trainer's history and documentation of the training of the dogs is very much examined.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 08:16:19 PM
That's one trial we do know a lot about. And pretrial is all on youtube too.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 08:16:35 PM
perhaps that's why grime has been so quiet about the alerts in pdl....not the dogs finest moment. The dogs are fantastic if their is something to find...they will find it...thats what makes them so valuable...but if theres nothing....
Then why, if the dogs were so good, was Eddie alerting at the Scenic if there wasn't anything there. The only answer can be yet another false positive.
Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your standpoint, the true reason will never be known.
The deployment of the dogs in Praia da Luz was an exercise in futility. The only thing they proved in the end was that they were unreliable in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 08, 2013, 08:48:32 PM
Then why, if the dogs were so good, was Eddie alerting at the Scenic if there wasn't anything there. The only answer can be yet another false positive.
Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your standpoint, the true reason will never be known.
The deployment of the dogs in Praia da Luz was an exercise in futility. The only thing they proved in the end was that they were unreliable in certain circumstances.
I would agree with that.
But it needn't have been that way.
If the dogs had been deployed properly, even providing no alerts, that might have been taken as an indication that Madeleine might, indeed, still be alive and the whole direction of the investigation might have taken a different course.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 08:53:33 PM
If the dogs had been deployed properly, even providing no alerts, that might have been taken as an indication that Madeleine might, indeed, still be alive and the whole direction of the investigation might have taken a different course.
So why has there been no public campaign by the McCanns, ferry?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 08:54:54 PM
Why has it been left to you? (and Angelo too apparently 8(8-)))
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Redblossom on December 08, 2013, 09:00:04 PM
Then why, if the dogs were so good, was Eddie alerting at the Scenic if there wasn't anything there. The only answer can be yet another false positive.
Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your standpoint, the true reason will never be known.
The deployment of the dogs in Praia da Luz was an exercise in futility. The only thing they proved in the end was that they were unreliable in certain circumstances.
How do you know there wasnt anything there? Eddie alerted..it could have been to remnant body scent and or blood... He alerts to both....indeed he reacted to remnant body scent in the Kate Prout murder investigation.....
Blood was certainly found there as Keela the blood dog found it in the boot and in the glove compartment Its one thing to not be convinced of x y z its another to say the dog alerts were useless...only the handler knows that
Eddie the cadaver dog must be really sh it if he alerts for nothing and he alerted in plenty of places where it is a fact it wasnt to blood.......
He wasnt widely asked for worldwide for nothing or false alerts.....
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 08, 2013, 09:17:02 PM
Here is the uncut video of the inspection of the Scenic hire car. Remember, this is the vehicle which according to some was not identified as the target vehicle yet it was the only one with Madeleine posters attached inside. Watch as the handler Martin Grime stands by the car and beckons the dog over on several occasions whilst tapping the car with his hand. What a frigging farce!
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 08, 2013, 09:39:50 PM
The deployment of the dogs in Praia da Luz was an exercise in futility. The only thing they proved in the end was that they were unreliable in certain circumstances.
Which circumstances ? If someone confesses and reveals Madeleine died effectively in the flat, would you say that the dogs' operation was a "futility" or that men have still a lot to study about remains' scent ?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 08, 2013, 09:50:59 PM
Here is the uncut video of the inspection of the Scenic hire car. Remember, this is the vehicle which according to some was not identified as the target vehicle yet it was the only one with Madeleine posters attached inside. Watch as the handler Martin Grime stands by the car and beckons the dog over on several occasions whilst tapping the car with his hand. What a frigging farce!
Angelo, it really doesn't matter if he kept the dog there all day... the dog has been trained, not dragged in off the street 8(0(*
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 09:55:32 PM
He's clearly found the scent at 1:40 on that video - look at this change in behaviour with his nose in the air.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Redblossom on December 08, 2013, 09:56:10 PM
Eddie was also constantly brought back to places in searches of the mccanns flat... He went in there with changed behaviour immediately....the handler knew he had picked up on a scent, he was thorough in trying to get the dog to hone in on the nearest spot....simple as that imo
He would be negligent if he didnt.........
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 08, 2013, 10:10:08 PM
Which circumstances ? If someone confesses and reveals Madeleine died effectively in the flat, would you say that the dogs' operation was a "futility" or that men have still a lot to study about remains' scent ?
The circumstances in Praia da Luz. The dogs were in a completely alien environment and that after having been shut up in an aircraft hold and then transported by road for God knows how long. The dogs were out of their comfort zone in PdL, they must have found the new scents overpowering. The exercise was one of abject failure from the beginning.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 08, 2013, 10:27:40 PM
The circumstances in Praia da Luz. The dogs were in a completely alien environment and that after having been shut up in an aircraft hold and then transported by road for God knows how long. The dogs were out of their comfort zone in PdL, they must have found the new scents overpowering. The exercise was one of abject failure from the beginning.
"abject" failure ? You mean "obscene" failure ? I can't figure out that Martin Grime was hallucinating when he observed Eddie's behaviour change as soon as the 5A door was opened.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pegasus on December 08, 2013, 10:29:18 PM
In the apartment videos the handler points Eddie to places in 5B 5D 5H 4G and Eddie does not signal. In clothing video, the handler points Eddie to check certain items in more detail, for example a bag and a towel, and Eddie does not signal.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 09, 2013, 06:43:56 AM
I checked on the longer video and its not on there so your quite right. I apologise. However, that does not change my views not at all.
The handler was not actually really looking at the cars, and I have watched it so many times now he does bring the dog back to each car especially the red one.
The handler had no idea the dog was even going to alert to the car anyway. The dog clearly showed a scent found.
If we go down your route then the conclusion can only be fraud by the handler and whoever set the scene.
I shall go and find the video i watched originally and there was a photo in one of the other silver cars.
[Note: Diagram above is incorrect as it indicates cadaver odour beside the bedroom window. The odour was actually found outside the patio doors 'in the flowerbed of the yard']
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Angelo222 on December 09, 2013, 10:22:57 AM
I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a fraud by the handler but after having travelled such a long way I am sure he was keen to achieve a result and the target car might as well have had a great big fluorescent sign on it saying CHOOSE ME.
Curious that someone even removed the two Madeleine posters from the car before the second dog Keela was put in. Did they think we wouldn't see them in the original footage?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 12:22:18 PM
I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a fraud by the handler but after having travelled such a long way I am sure he was keen to achieve a result and the target car might as well have had a great big fluorescent sign on it saying CHOOSE ME.
Curious that someone even removed the two Madeleine posters from the car before the second dog Keela was put in. Did they think we wouldn't see them in the original footage?
Alerting in 5A was an achievement and at least some intelligence, since after all this was the place Madeleine (according to her parents) was last seen in. No alerts at cars would have also been intelligence.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 12:33:04 PM
Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.
Operating in another continent, thousands of miles away ...
Something of a come-down from the heady days of Haut de la Garenne, where he could command his own price to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds and boast that he'd given the Jersey authorities a discount.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Lyall on December 09, 2013, 12:54:15 PM
Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.
Operating in another continent, thousands of miles away ...
Something of a come-down from the heady days of Haut de la Garenne, where he could command his own price to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds and boast that he'd given the Jersey authorities a discount.
More than your earning for your relentless, daily smearing of him 8(0(*
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 09, 2013, 01:33:13 PM
I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a fraud by the handler but after having travelled such a long way I am sure he was keen to achieve a result and the target car might as well have had a great big fluorescent sign on it saying CHOOSE ME.
Curious that someone even removed the two Madeleine posters from the car before the second dog Keela was put in. Did they think we wouldn't see them in the original footage?
The problem with this Angelo is he would have KNOWN there was gong to be a result by your reckoning. How could he know that? The dog may have simply walked away......
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 02:00:28 PM
The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family, the dog's behaviour changed substantially.
Martin Grime
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 09, 2013, 02:14:18 PM
Agree with Martin Grime. Eddie's behaviour did change as soon as he passed the car. That is clearly shown in the footage. The cars were all spaced out so which car do you think it was when his behaviour changed? The car that was the furthest away?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Anna on December 09, 2013, 02:15:43 PM
I wonder if it was possible that the dog picked up the scent of cuddle cat, that normally travelled with Kate in the passenger seat ? Just a thought
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 02:21:52 PM
I wonder if it was possible that the dog picked up the scent of cuddle cat, that normally travelled with Kate in the passenger seat ? Just a thought
As a new poster anna you probably haven't read this thread about cuddle cat. Well worth reading and viewing the video.
The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1619.msg48305;topicseen#msg48305)
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 09, 2013, 02:36:54 PM
"The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately.
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence." (Martin Grime)
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Anna on December 09, 2013, 02:44:49 PM
As a new poster anna you probably haven't read this thread about cuddle cat. Well worth reading and viewing the video.
The truth about the failed marking of cuddle cat by cadaver dog Eddie (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1619.msg48305;topicseen#msg48305)
Thank you John. I will read it, but I felt sure that the toy had been marked............Obviously I was wrong
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 02:48:51 PM
"The only alert indication given was when the dog located a pink cuddly toy in the villas lounge. The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately.
It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence." (Martin Grime)
Yet more unwarranted and irresponsible pronouncements by Grime.
Plain fact is that for a dog to play with stuff during the course of an official investigation is appalling and ill-disciplined behaviour from any dog.
Eddie failed to alert to the toy when it was in front of his nose and he could see it, sniff it, and toss it in the air.
Then the toy was hidden and he barked.
Most likely explanation of apparent "alert": I want my toy back ....
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: John on December 09, 2013, 02:51:34 PM
Here are a couple of other threads for your information.
Cadaver Dog Eddie and Cuddle Cat. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1617.msg48301#msg48301)
The Portuguese Police thought the dogs were 100% accurate. (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1513.msg43894;topicseen#msg43894)
(http://i.imgur.com/xOOGtWl.jpg)
Anguish ... Kate, with Cuddle Cat, and Gerry in tearful appeal for help days after disappearance.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Montclair on December 09, 2013, 03:45:09 PM
Four threads here open about the dogs, someone is still desperate to discredit Martin Grime and his dogs. Personally I believe the dogs and I think their finding are very important.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 03:47:30 PM
Four threads here open about the dogs, someone is still desperate to discredit Martin Grime and his dogs. Personally I believe the dogs and I think their finding are very important.
One small problem
Dogs don't make findings
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Montclair on December 09, 2013, 03:50:32 PM
Four threads here open about the dogs, someone is still desperate to discredit Martin Grime and his dogs. Personally I believe the dogs and I think their finding are very important.
So do I. Mr Grime's observation when the door of the 5A is open is definitively the most impressive fact in this investigation. Think of the distance between the threshold and the tiny drops of blood under the tiles vs Eddie barking at a key behind a not waterproof door.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 06:16:51 PM
Thank you John. I will read it, but I felt sure that the toy had been marked............Obviously I was wrong
If it was sufficient for totally ignorant persons in the matter of cadaver dogs to watch a video of an operation to know in a nutshell if the handler was cueing, the Professor cheating and the PJ swallowing inanities, why would Prof Harrison and Mr Grime have been interviewed twice, first by the PJ and then by the LC in the rogatory mission ? Why didn't the PJ send the bill to the HO and a protest for abuse to the FO ?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Montclair on December 09, 2013, 06:18:07 PM
If the dogs had reacted to only items relating to Robert Murat and ignored the McCanns you would have praised the dogs to the high heavens and saying how amazing they were. But since they only alerted to the parents, in your mind they are unreliable. The difference is if they had pointed to RM, I would have thought "So, he did have something to do with her disappearance." I wouldn't have tried to discredit them as your group insist on doing.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: ferryman on December 09, 2013, 07:13:04 PM
If the dogs had reacted to only items relating to Robert Murat and ignored the McCanns you would have praised the dogs to the high heavens and saying how amazing they were. But since they only alerted to the parents, in your mind they are unreliable. The difference is if they had pointed to RM, I would have thought "So, he did have something to do with her disappearance." I wouldn't have tried to discredit them as your group insist on doing.
What is your basis for the assumption that I have a wish to implicate Robert Murat?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Montclair on December 09, 2013, 07:24:07 PM
What is your basis for the assumption that I have a wish to implicate Robert Murat?
Don't make me say what I didn't say! I'm saying that you would have been happy and satisfied if the dogs had pointed to anyone other than the McCanns and would not have questioned their capabilities.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 07:45:48 PM
No cross contamination with certain pants ? Are you sure ?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Admin on December 11, 2013, 03:43:11 PM
Dog inspection report of cars searched in subterranean garage
Canine Inspection Report Date 6 and 7 August 2007 Place Underground parking area of 1st of May Square, Portimao. Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy and Keela, the English Springer [Spaniels]
THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park: [list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter; Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.] Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour, examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having been verified the following result: 15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry and Kate McCann.
Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result: 03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage compartment of the car; 04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door, which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park. At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand. At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle. At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand. ... the present document has been duly signed:[/list]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 02:20:12 AM
"The thing with blood is, it's got a very very low scent plume and the dog has to be very very close to it before (it alerts)."
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 02:41:50 AM
"The thing with blood is, it's got a very very low scent plume and the dog has to be very very close to it before (it alerts)."
That why Eddie goes first. It also indicates that the scent of blood can't invade the whole air of a closed place, unless there are huge quantities of it.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 18, 2013, 05:59:07 AM
Dog inspection report of cars searched in subterranean garage
Canine Inspection Report Date 6 and 7 August 2007 Place Underground parking area of 1st of May Square, Portimao. Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy and Keela, the English Springer [Spaniels]
THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park: [list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter; Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.] Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour, examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having been verified the following result: 15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry and Kate McCann.
Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result: 03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage compartment of the car; 04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door, which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park. At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand. At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle. At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand. ... the present document has been duly signed:[/list]
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
I expect the sand box (bucket of sand), had McCanns written in big black bold letters on the front....... 8-)(--)8()-000(
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 03:15:54 PM
Eddie detected cadaver scent in and out 5A, on the outside of car which was the scent he was chasing (blood scent too weak on key fob for that to happen - you require Keela in very close to alert to those tiny blood traces - key fob also cadaver contaminated as Eddie alerted to it buried under sand), on clothes and CC. IMO Eddie did indicate that a dead person had been in 5A at some time and in that car at some time.
A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)).
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 03:40:25 PM
Eddie detected cadaver scent in and out 5A, on the outside of car which was the scent he was chasing (blood scent too weak on key fob for that to happen - you require Keela in very close to alert to those tiny blood traces - key fob also cadaver contaminated as Eddie alerted to it buried under sand), on clothes and CC. IMO Eddie did indicate that a dead person had been in 5A at some time and in that car at some time.
A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)).
Eddie reacted only at the key card, which had minute blood (did Keela react to it ?) but could also have been contaminated (pants's pocket).
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 06:14:23 PM
The blood found in the boot by Keela is the missing key to me for a body being there. The authorities kept that part of the boot. Kate thinks that idea is unbelievable "It gets even more ludicrous that we’ve obviously hidden her somewhere incredibly well where nobody’s found her and we’d hidden her so well that we’d decided we’d move her in the car which we hired weeks later and you know, it’s just ridiculous."
"The police appeared to be telling us, on the say-so of a dog............."
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 06:30:45 PM
The blood found in the boot by Keela is the missing key to me for a body being there. The authorities kept that part of the boot. Kate thinks that idea is unbelievable "It gets even more ludicrous that we’ve obviously hidden her somewhere incredibly well where nobody’s found her and we’d hidden her so well that we’d decided we’d move her in the car which we hired weeks later and you know, it’s just ridiculous."
"The police appeared to be telling us, on the say-so of a dog............."
I agree with her, though she knows and I guess...
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 18, 2013, 06:36:31 PM
I don't think Madeleine is in PDL so if that's the case I think she was moved in a car.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 06:40:19 PM
I think they should have got Eddie to check any apartments near that church such as Malinka's and any other leads as that's where Smithman was last seen in close proximity.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Anna on December 18, 2013, 08:10:39 PM
I think they should have got Eddie to check any apartments near that church such as Malinka's and any other leads as that's where Smithman was last seen in close proximity.
Are you aware you're speaking of a body (Eddie), Pathfinder ? Can you try and put yourself in Smithman's shoes for a moment ?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 18, 2013, 09:18:03 PM
Are you aware you're speaking of a body (Eddie), Pathfinder ? Can you try and put yourself in Smithman's shoes for a moment ?
I'm putting myself in Smithman's shoes - he had to remove a dead body from the apartment with no help from anyone as it was unforeseen IMO. Smithman moved the body to a bin first but it didn't stay there as he was seen walking past the Smith family towards the church/beach. He didn't have much time to conceal the body so he had to act quickly to find a place that he knew of. I think the body was moved again hours later to somewhere up on the cliff face (descending from the top) where the smell wouldn't be noticed. That's why a sewer pipe may have been used as a temporary hiding place because of the bad smell but did Eddie later check those sewer pipes/tunnel for cadaver?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 19, 2013, 12:37:01 AM
Smithman moved the body to a bin first but it didn't stay there as he was seen walking past the Smith family towards the church/beach. He didn't have much time to conceal the body so he had to act quickly to find a place that he knew of. I think the body was moved again hours later to somewhere up on the cliff face (descending from the top) where the smell wouldn't be noticed. That's why a sewer pipe may have been used as a temporary hiding place because of the bad smell but did Eddie later check those sewer pipes/tunnel for cadaver?
Well, I certainly couldn't act like your Smithman ! Besides what for ? Eddie checked, yes.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 19, 2013, 12:40:58 AM
I've made it harder for myself because I believe the body was moved in the car at a later date and buried in a final resting place (2 June is my guess). A bin would be the obvious choice.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 19, 2013, 01:10:28 AM
I've made it harder for myself because I believe the body was moved in the car at a later date and buried in a final resting place (2 June is my guess). A bin would be the obvious choice.
Don't make it too hard for Smithman, he had it really tough, it couldn't last long.
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 19, 2013, 03:31:54 AM
I've made it harder for myself because I believe the body was moved in the car at a later date and buried in a final resting place (2 June is my guess). A bin would be the obvious choice.
So that's three locations: the bin, the cliff face, and then the car. In fact four - the destination of the car.
So much activity vastly magnifies his chances of getting caught, no? You give him very high IQ points, pathfinder!
And what about the decomposition?
Title: Re: The deployment of the cadaver dogs in the underground garage.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 19, 2013, 11:07:03 AM