Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 07:01:39 AM
Title: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 08, 2013, 07:01:39 AM
The worst thing for me out of all of it...
Was when MrsMcCann from her own lips told the world that her 3 year daughter had asked why she didnt come to them the night before when they were crying......what did she do?
SHE LEFT THEM AGAIN THAT NIGHT. As far as I am concerned there isnt must moral compass there. How could she?
I know children having 10 grandchildren and about 4 great grandchildren. IF a child was upset the night before you can bet your bottom dollar that same child would not be fooled the next night and would be difficult. 3 year old children are not stupid far from it.
How could ANYONE leave their children alone again KNOWING they had woken up prior and from what I read from the friends, it was known the children were not good sleepers.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 08, 2013, 12:32:24 PM
Was when MrsMcCann from her own lips told the world that her 3 year daughter had asked why she didnt come to them the night before when they were crying......what did she do?
SHE LEFT THEM AGAIN THAT NIGHT. As far as I am concerned there isnt must moral compass there. How could she?
Does your knowledge about body language (this episode has been told more than once in front of TV cameras) tell you this is true ? The more I think of it, the more I suspect this is a tree planted to hide the forest.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 08, 2013, 03:37:55 PM
It has taken it's toll greatly on Kate and if something happened earlier at the apartment it was from the time period 6.30-7pm. There's more to Kate sleeping in the other bed than just Gerry's snoring.
"During that period she saw the rest of the group, children and grownups; she was disappointed as nobody had told her that they were going to the beach and Madeleine surely would have loved to have gone with them." (KM)
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: colombosstogey on December 09, 2013, 06:39:47 AM
Does your knowledge about body language (this episode has been told more than once in front of TV cameras) tell you this is true ? The more I think of it, the more I suspect this is a tree planted to hide the forest.
I agree. There is something more off with her saying it why did she? I actually thought it was a myth at first never happened as I could not see why she would say such a thing......but she would if she wanted us to know the child was there that morning.
No I could never understand why she would say it on the 3rd in the morning when Mrs Fenn herself the crying happened the night of the 1st.
So what happened on the 2nd then?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 09, 2013, 01:23:26 PM
Why was the Madeleine crying incident mentioned on the 3rd at the dinner? After the fact - I wonder if the same abductor was in the apartment and woke Madeleine on the night before she disappeared? 2 nights before doesn't quite have the same effect. I think Smithman did the tidying up and he would do anything to SAVE this person from coming to any harm.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 09, 2013, 10:18:17 PM
but she would if she wanted us to know the child was there that morning.
This story wasn't for the public, but for the group. And the purpose was to justify the door-window left open. They knew that those of the group who heard that story could speak of it in their statements. So it was clever to be the first to mention it.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Anna on December 10, 2013, 01:03:59 AM
This story wasn't for the public, but for the group. And the purpose was to justify the door-window left open. They knew that those of the group who heard that story could speak of it in their statements. So it was clever to be the first to mention it.
I cannot understand Why, if they were worried about the crying episode and still had to go out, they didn't just go out and buy a baby listening device. or better still, hire a babysitter. The answer to that ,I guess we will never know. They may even have asked themselves the same questions, many times, since her mysterious disappearance and if that is the case, it is very sad indeed for them to have to live with the "What Ifs" I just hope it is all resolved soon.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 10, 2013, 01:36:40 AM
The crying episode was told at the table after the fact IMO. This brought on the discussion of whether they should leave the patio door unlocked - why do these important insights come out into the open just before Madeleine is reported to be missing? Could Kate predict the future? Then the Jane Tanner sighting so everyone was completely convinced that it had to be abduction.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 10, 2013, 11:15:48 AM
The crying episode was told at the table after the fact IMO. This brought on the discussion of whether they should leave the patio door unlocked - why do these important insights come out into the open just before Madeleine is reported to be missing? Could Kate predict the future? Then the Jane Tanner sighting so everyone was completely convinced that it had to be abduction.
Imo too. And it seems it was told more than once (see the rogs, Ms Tanner, Mrs Oldfield and Mrs Payne don't report it as if it was told once to all). Mrs Payne is the only one who relates it directly to the open door-window. As some in the group suggested that this practice was current, expressing doubts about it minutes before Madeleine is taken either is being Cassandra or paves the way for Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 03:03:54 PM
Why was the Madeleine crying incident mentioned on the 3rd at the dinner? After the fact - I wonder if the same abductor was in the apartment and woke Madeleine on the night before she disappeared? 2 nights before doesn't quite have the same effect. I think Smithman did the tidying up and he would do anything to SAVE this person from coming to any harm.
Am I missing something, pathfinder?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 05, 2014, 05:07:04 PM
Smithman wasn't present at 5A when Madeleine died. When he came in somebody was nursing her in tears behind the sofa.
[They've lied They were mistaken] in their first statements (4 May) about keeping to the daily routine i.e. going to the play area. That didn't happen for the first time on the 3rd, the day Madeleine disappeared but they both imply that it did in their first statements.
"After the 5pm dinner, they bathed the children, prepared them for the night and let them play for a while at a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children were put to bed until the following morning, when the described routine started all over again.
While the children are at the "Kid Club," the witness played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read and practised “Jogging”.
Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband. Just after 8.30pm, the witness and her husband, after checking on their children, joined the other adults of the group at the "Tapas" restaurant, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner." (KM)
After the 5 pm meal, the parents bathed them, got them ready for the night, and played for a little while in the play area next to the tennis courts, still under the parents' supervision. Towards 7.30/8 pm, the children were put to bed until the next morning, when the described routine described would start all over again.
While the children were at the "Kid Club," the deponent played tennis with his wife, went for walks, read and practised "jogging."
Yesterday, after the daily routine, MADELEINE and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds, and he stresses put to bed, at 7.30 pm. The deponent and his wife remained in the apartment to relax and drink a glass of wine until 8.30 pm. After checking the children, the deponent and his wife and the adults went to the "Tapas" restaurant, around 50 metres away, where they had dinner together. (GM)
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Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:33:47 PM
Smithman wasn't present at 5A when Madeleine died. When he came in somebody was nursing her in tears behind the sofa.
[They've lied They were mistaken] in their first statements (4 May) about keeping to the daily routine i.e. going to the play area. That didn't happen for the first time on the 3rd, the day Madeleine disappeared but they both imply that it did in their first statements.
"After the 5pm dinner, they bathed the children, prepared them for the night and let them play for a while at a playground next to the tennis courts, still and always under parental supervision. At around 8pm, the children were put to bed until the following morning, when the described routine started all over again.
While the children are at the "Kid Club," the witness played tennis with her husband, went for walks, read and practised “Jogging”.
Yesterday, after the daily routine, Madeleine and the twins went into the bedroom and were put in their beds at around 7.30. The witness and her husband stayed in the apartment, relaxing, until 8.30pm. She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband. Just after 8.30pm, the witness and her husband, after checking on their children, joined the other adults of the group at the "Tapas" restaurant, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner." (KM)
After the 5 pm meal, the parents bathed them, got them ready for the night, and played for a little while in the play area next to the tennis courts, still under the parents' supervision. Towards 7.30/8 pm, the children were put to bed until the next morning, when the described routine described would start all over again.
While the children were at the "Kid Club," the deponent played tennis with his wife, went for walks, read and practised "jogging."
Yesterday, after the daily routine, MADELEINE and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds, and he stresses put to bed, at 7.30 pm. The deponent and his wife remained in the apartment to relax and drink a glass of wine until 8.30 pm. After checking the children, the deponent and his wife and the adults went to the "Tapas" restaurant, around 50 metres away, where they had dinner together. (GM)
... post modified in terms of forum policy ...
Thanks for the long quote, pathfinder.
It's going to take more than a change in routine / discrepancy in the story to prove that, however.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 05, 2014, 05:40:33 PM
It's going to take more than a change in routine / discrepancy in the story to prove that, however.
It will be hard to prove anything now (only one may know what actually happened to Madeleine) but they will corroborate the dogs evidence if they ID Smithman. They need to follow all other possible leads first and when they come to nothing they will be left with one.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:58:22 PM
It will be hard to prove anything now (only one may know what actually happened to Madeleine) but they will corroborate the dogs evidence if they ID Smithman. They need to follow all other possible leads first and when they come to nothing they will be left with one.
Elementary ?>)()<
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: j.rob on February 07, 2014, 02:08:11 PM
I think Kate talked about it to the group and included it in her book to introduce the idea that an abductor entered the room on the evening before Madeleine was allegedly abducted. As Anne wrote - a tree to hide the wood. Kate uses this strategy a lot.
It may also have been a decoy with regards to Mrs Fenn having heard crying from the McCanns apartment for an hour and a quarter on 1st May. By making this comment, it might cast doubts on whether Mrs Fenn had got the wrong evening for the crying incident.
But, primarily, I think it was to introduce the idea that the abductor had entered the apartment the previous evening and had disturbed the children. Kate claims that at the time that Madeleine made this comment they were not unduly worried as Madeleine herself did not seem that upset about it the next day and she mentioned it 'and moved on'.
As with so much that Kate says and writes, this comes over as, at best disingenuous and, at worst, completely deceptive. By claiming that Madeleine 'moved on' after having mentioned the incident she is somehow shifting the responsibility from the parents onto Madeleine.
So, rather than questioning Madeleine further and then, crucially NOT LEAVING HER AND HER SIBLINGS ALONE AGAIN THE FOLLOWING EVENING, what does Kate do? She subtly implies that it was not that important as Madeleine chose 'to move on'.
Kate and Gerry play games like this the whole time. Every little trick in the book to plant decoys, remove themselves from having to take any responsibility, apportion blame on others and generally duck and dive. It's almost as though they are playing a game (remembers; everyone is playing a role, some quite big, according to Gerry.)
A responsible parent would feel guilty for not having been there when the children cried. Would feel especially guilty that an almost four year old was left to listen to her younger sibling cry. And then be forced to ask the parents the next day why they didn't come.
And what answer did the McCanns give when Madeleine asked why the did not come when one of the children was crying. What would have been the honest answer?
'We didn't come because we chose to leave you alone with your two year old siblings and we were too far away to hear you cry. We did check on you from time to time but obviously the crying happened between checks.'
But, not only did the McCanns not answer the question, they did NOTHING to reassure Madeleine that this wouldn't happen again. On the contrary, they left the children unattended the following evening and didn't even bother to check on them themselves between approx 9pm and 10pm , allegedly getting a friend to listen outside the apartment at 9.30pm Which left plenty of periods of time when one or all of the children could have woken up and cried.
Kate has already, helpfully, made it clear that the parents were eating and drinking out of ear-shot of their children so they would not have heard them if they were crying. Which meant that, on the following evening, exactly the same thing could have happened.
But, in fact, what did happen? Rather than trusting their instincts and being responsible having listened to the concerns of their daughter, they were even less careful resulting in - allegedly - an abductor being able to enter the unlocked apartment and stealing Madeleine.
Don't you see - none of this ever had anything to do with Madeleine. It was all about the McCanns. Everything Kate and Gerry say and do is about THEM. Even when they appear to be showing concern for Madleleine, it is really only an attempt to justify their behaviour.
They are [... moderated ...] Gerry especially. Kate is co-dependent.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: j.rob on February 07, 2014, 02:21:28 PM
The conversation about padeophiles that they allegedly had shortly before Madeleine was allegedly abducted. That extraordinarily inapprpriate conversation (assuming it ever happened which I doubt - would be interesting to see if the police interviewed the father who claimed her felt like a 'dirty old man' videoing his three year old) that would have been included so that Kate could raise in the reader's mind that idea of a paedophile abduction.
The detail in the book about Madeleine's final days. Too much information here - it feels fabricated. It is over-embellished, over-elaborated. It reads like a concoction. The descriptions of what Madeleine was wearing. It feels fake, like a purple passage.
Which leads me to believe that something happened to Madeleine the night of 1st May when Mrs Fenn heard crying from the apartment. Which adults, if any, were in the apartment at the time. To my mind, those final two days are crucial to the case. If my hunch is correct (and many others seem to be thinking along similar lines) that give the McCanns and anyone else involved two days in which to get their ducks in a row.
As Kate said herself: 'The first 48 hours you are non-functioning'. The first 48 hours of what, exacty?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 07, 2014, 02:27:55 PM
The conversation about padeophiles that they allegedly had shortly before Madeleine was allegedly abducted. That extraordinarily inapprpriate conversation (assuming it ever happened which I doubt - would be interesting to see if the police interviewed the father who claimed her felt like a 'dirty old man' videoing his three year old) that would have been included so that Kate could raise in the reader's mind that idea of a paedophile abduction.
The detail in the book about Madeleine's final days. Too much information here - it feels fabricated. It is over-embellished, over-elaborated. It reads like a concoction. The descriptions of what Madeleine was wearing. It feels fake, like a purple passage.
Which leads me to believe that something happened to Madeleine the night of 1st May when Mrs Fenn heard crying from the apartment. Which adults, if any, were in the apartment at the time. To my mind, those final two days are crucial to the case. If my hunch is correct (and many others seem to be thinking along similar lines) that give the McCanns and anyone else involved two days in which to get their ducks in a row.
As Kate said herself: 'The first 48 hours you are non-functioning'. The first 48 hours of what, exacty?
Exactly. So many bits of their story come across as convenient back-fill to support their later position.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 04:54:39 PM
IMO there is a possibility Mrs F may have day wrong and maybe it was Wed not Tue, SY could easily check by getting the landline record for the phonecall by witness PF to friend EG which was made during the crying so it will confirm the day Tue or Wed with some certainty IMO.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 07, 2014, 05:03:11 PM
IMO there is a possibility Mrs F may have day wrong and maybe it was Wed not Tue, SY could easily check by getting the landline record for the phonecall by witness PF to friend EG which was made during the crying so it will confirm the day Tue or Wed with some certainty IMO.
One would hope that they have done so, but I suppose it depends on how thoroughly they have looked into those aspects of the case - something we have no way of knowing.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 07, 2014, 05:10:21 PM
One would hope that they have done so, but I suppose it depends on how thoroughly they have looked into those aspects of the case - something we have no way of knowing.
Agreed and Pamela Fenn was sure she wasn't in on WED 2 MAY.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 07, 2014, 05:12:30 PM
I think Kate talked about it to the group and included it in her book to introduce the idea that an abductor entered the room on the evening before Madeleine was allegedly abducted. As Anne wrote - a tree to hide the wood. Kate uses this strategy a lot.
It may also have been a decoy with regards to Mrs Fenn having heard crying from the McCanns apartment for an hour and a quarter on 1st May. By making this comment, it might cast doubts on whether Mrs Fenn had got the wrong evening for the crying incident.
But, primarily, I think it was to introduce the idea that the abductor had entered the apartment the previous evening and had disturbed the children. Kate claims that at the time that Madeleine made this comment they were not unduly worried as Madeleine herself did not seem that upset about it the next day and she mentioned it 'and moved on'.
As with so much that Kate says and writes, this comes over as, at best disingenuous and, at worst, completely deceptive. By claiming that Madeleine 'moved on' after having mentioned the incident she is somehow shifting the responsibility from the parents onto Madeleine.
So, rather than questioning Madeleine further and then, crucially NOT LEAVING HER AND HER SIBLINGS ALONG AGAIN THE FOLLOWING EVENING, what does Kate do? She subtly implies that it was not that important as Madeleine chose 'to move on'.
Kate and Gerry play games like this the whole time. Every little trick in the book to plant decoys, remove themselves from having to take any responsibility, apportion blame on others and generally duck and dive. It's almost as though they are playing a game (remembers; everyone is playing a role, some quite big, according to Gerry.)
A responsible parent would feel guilty for not having been there when the children cried. Would feel especially guilty that an almost four year old was left to listen to her younger sibling cry. And then be forced to ask the parents the next day why they didn't come.
And what answer did the McCanns give when Madeleine asked why the did not come when one of the children was crying. What would have been the honest answer?
'We didn't come because we chose to leave you alone with your two year old siblings and we were too far away to hear you cry. We did check on you from time to time but obviously the crying happened between checks.'
But, not only did the McCanns not answer the question, they did NOTHING to reassure Madeleine that this wouldn't happen again. On the contrary, they left the children unattended the following evening and didn't even bother to check on them themselves between approx 9pm and 10pm , allegedly getting a friend to listen outside the apartment at 9.30pm Which left plenty of periods of time when one or all of the children could have woken up and cried.
Kate has already, helpfully, made it clear that the parents were eating and drinking out of ear-shot of their children so they would not have heard them if they were crying. Which meant that, on the following evening, exactly the same thing could have happened.
But, in fact, what did happen? Rather than trusting their instincts and being responsible having listened to the concerns of their daughter, they were even less careful resulting in - allegedly - an abductor being able to enter the unlocked apartment and stealing Madeleine.
Don't you see - none of this ever had anything to do with Madeleine. It was all about the McCanns. Everything Kate and Gerry say and do is about THEM. Even when they appear to be showing concern for Madleleine, it is really only an attempt to justify their behaviour.
They are psychopaths. Gerry especially. Kate is co-dependent.
IMO If they wanted to dishonestly introduce the idea that someone had been in the apartment the night before they certainly would not have said what they did - putting themselves in a bad light when they could just as easily have said Madeleine told them she had a nasty dream about a man in her room. And of course if they WERE psychopaths that is exactly the sort of thing they would have done.
What psychopathic behaviour have you noticed them displaying which apparently people who have actually spent time with them over the last 30 years or so - seem to have so spectacularly missed?
As far as I know being 'co-dependent' is not a characteristic of a psychopathic personality disorder.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2014, 06:04:23 PM
Mrs. Fenn could also have got the wrong appartment. I often hear noises here and can't tell precisely where they are coming from. And I am not deaf either. Although Mrs. Fenn could have been.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 07, 2014, 06:09:58 PM
None of the others in the group have come forward to claim that it was their child crying, so one might reasonably assume that it wasn't.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Lyall on February 07, 2014, 06:13:58 PM
Mrs. Fenn could also have got the wrong appartment. I often hear noises here and can't tell precisely where they are coming from. And I am not deaf either. Although Mrs. Fenn could have been.
For over an hour?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2014, 06:21:32 PM
It could have been in another block close by. It didn't have to be one of the tapas children.
You know for a fact that there were other children closely adjacent ?
Of course, Kate admits that Madeleine was crying, merely disputes which night. If she was crying one night, she may well ahve been crying on other nights, too.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
You know for a fact that there were other children closely adjacent ?
Of course, Kate admits that Madeleine was crying, merely disputes which night. If she was crying one night, she may well ahve been crying on other nights, too.
Do you know for a fact that there weren't other children close by?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 07, 2014, 06:48:41 PM
No. Stalemate 8(0(*
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 07, 2014, 06:53:34 PM
How many threads are required to go over and over and over this issue?
You know for a fact that there were other children closely adjacent ?
Of course, Kate admits that Madeleine was crying, merely disputes which night. If she was crying one night, she may well ahve been crying on other nights, too.
And she may not have been !
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Lyall on February 07, 2014, 07:24:47 PM
I wouldn't be sure about that. I'm just here to see when it's going to dawn on people that Amaral actually did cock things up.
Sadly Eleanor, some people are unable to accept that their preconceived ideas on the case are probably rubbish. Even when they are unable to put forward a sensible way and a reason for The Mccanns being involved
NOT ONE SINGLE SENSIBLE MCCANN "DUNIT" THEORY HAS BEEN POSTED.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 07, 2014, 08:23:03 PM
Sadly Eleanor, some people are unable to accept that their preconceived ideas on the case are probably rubbish. Even when they are unable to put forward a sensible way and a reason for The Mccanns being involved
NOT ONE SINGLE SENSIBLE MCCANN "DUNIT" THEORY HAS BEEN POSTED.
In your opinion and your fellow supporters, that is.
When you go to Belgravia station with your 'theories', has it occurred to you, that they are just humouring you ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 07, 2014, 08:25:42 PM
Sadly Eleanor, some people are unable to accept that their preconceived ideas on the case are probably rubbish. Even when they are unable to put forward a sensible way and a reason for The Mccanns being involved
NOT ONE SINGLE SENSIBLE MCCANN "DUNIT" THEORY HAS BEEN POSTED.
That's because you guys go nuts every time somebody posts one, with cries of how can anyone be so cruel to suggest such a thing.
'tis a trap 8(0(*
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 07, 2014, 08:32:48 PM
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: valeria on February 07, 2014, 08:49:44 PM
hello everyone. this is my first post here. iam watching this forum last months without commenting most because iam not good in writing english ( english is not my first language). whatever, regarding mrs fenn statement i think that if was madeleine crying she would scream more words than dady..maybe...mum..dad..where are you..iam afraid...etc. likewise in case amelie was crying for more than an hour, madeleine would talk more maybe trying to calm her. so, i think that crying lasted not so much either it was from an other apartment.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2014, 08:55:01 PM
hello everyone. this is my first post here. iam watching this forum last months without commenting most because iam not good in writing english ( english is not my first language). whatever, regarding mrs fenn statement i think that if was madeleine crying she would scream more words than dady..maybe...mum..dad..where are you..iam afraid...etc. likewise in case amelie was crying for more than an hour, madeleine would talk more maybe trying to calm her. so, i think that crying lasted not so much either it was from an other apartment.
A good point, Valeria.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: John on February 07, 2014, 09:04:26 PM
IMO there is a possibility Mrs F may have day wrong and maybe it was Wed not Tue, SY could easily check by getting the landline record for the phonecall by witness PF to friend EG which was made during the crying so it will confirm the day Tue or Wed with some certainty IMO.
But Mrs Fenn went out visiting on the Wednesday evening because presumably she didn't want to listen to a repeat of the previous evenings crying. Remember that she was so concerned about the crying that she phoned her friend to ask her what to do. The very friend she visited the next day.
Both Gerry and Kate speak of Madeleine asking them on the Thursday morning as to why they didn't come when the twins were crying. So are we to infer that the children were crying on both the Tuesday and Wednesday nights?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 07, 2014, 09:55:54 PM
But Mrs Fenn went out visiting on the Wednesday evening because presumably she didn't want to listen to a repeat of the previous evenings crying. Remember that she was so concerned about the crying that she phoned her friend to ask her what to do. The very friend she visited the next day.
Both Gerry and Kate speak of Madeleine asking them on the Thursday morning as to why they didn't come when the twins were crying. So are we to infer that the children were crying on both the Tuesday and Wednesday nights?
Russell stayed in with his little girl who was poorly - and about the same age as Madeleine. It could have been her calling for her daddy if she wasn't feeling well and was having trouble sleeping. And it could have been Jayne opening their patio doors to go in when she returned from the Tapas Resturant at the end of the evening. There would be no need for them to lock the patio door that night because Russell was at home - so it makes sense for Jayne not to have to take the long way round on that occasion.
If Mrs Fenn was that worried then I think she would have said something to either the McCanns (put a note through their door maybe?) or the OC reception the next day.
If they had cried for any length of time on Wednesday night, Rachael who was next door for the whole evening would have heard them.
If Mrs Fenn had been interviewed as a matter of urgency - being so close to the 'crime' scene, this may well have all been sorted out very quickly IMO.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 11:41:57 PM
But Mrs Fenn went out visiting on the Wednesday evening because presumably she didn't want to listen to a repeat of the previous evenings crying. Remember that she was so concerned about the crying that she phoned her friend to ask her what to do. The very friend she visited the next day. Both Gerry and Kate speak of Madeleine asking them on the Thursday morning as to why they didn't come when the twins were crying. So are we to infer that the children were crying on both the Tuesday and Wednesday nights?
I agree that the PF statement, as transcribed, says Tuesday. However IMO there is a slight possibility that transcription may be incorrect. Very easy to check with just one letter from PJ to landline phone company to ask whether the 23:00 call was Tue or Wed.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 07, 2014, 11:52:38 PM
Russell stayed in with his little girl who was poorly - and about the same age as Madeleine. It could have been her calling for her daddy if she wasn't feeling well and was having trouble sleeping. And it could have been Jayne opening their patio doors to go in when she returned from the Tapas Resturant at the end of the evening. There would be no need for them to lock the patio door that night because Russell was at home - so it makes sense for Jayne not to have to take the long way round on that occasion.
If Mrs Fenn was that worried then I think she would have said something to either the McCanns (put a note through their door maybe?) or the OC reception the next day.
If they had cried for any length of time on Wednesday night, Rachael who was next door for the whole evening would have heard them.
If Mrs Fenn had been interviewed as a matter of urgency - being so close to the 'crime' scene, this may well have all been sorted out very quickly IMO.
"The witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below."
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 08, 2014, 12:38:29 AM
If there was crying after 10:30pm on Wed evening would person in 5B have heard it?
A person in 5B not well enough to go to dinner is after 10:30pm likely to be asleep in the bedroom (it is a one-bedroom apartment).
If there was crying in 5A child bedroom, this may be likely to awake a person in 5B bedroom, because those rooms are adjacent (seperated by only one internal wall).
However if there was crying in 5A other bedroom or lounge, this is less likely to awake a person in 5B bedroom, because those rooms are not adjacent to 5B bedroom.
All hypothetical
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 08, 2014, 02:11:31 AM
"The witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below."
The floor below involves more than one apartment. Several posters who live in similar circumstances have said that it's not easy to distinguish where sounds originate from. Jez Wilkins partner(?) has related how they could hear laughter etc drifting up from the McCanns and their friends from the outside Tapas Restaurant- when they were on their balcony. Where the crying came from is not as black and white as some people would like to believe IMO.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 07:57:18 AM
All i see is pretty pathetic excuses to prop up the assertion that the McCanns did no wrong. FGS they even told you about a crying incident they had no prior knowledge of and intimated that it could have been an intruder present. Why are we still getting lame excuse after lame excuse as to how it wasn't from the McCanns apartment? Just except it was Madeleine and deal with it! After all it doesn't have to ruin anybodys abduction theory.
it's all about making excuses buzz, on behalf of the mccanns.
It has become increasingly nauseating and won't stop by their obsessive followers.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 08, 2014, 08:35:36 AM
It is the asserting the perfection of the McCann that actually diminishes any good arguments they have.
LOL at the supreme irony - when it is the unrelenting mantra of most sceptics imo that, without exception, EVERYTHING the McCanns do is wrong and EVERYTHING they say is wrong. They were even slagged off and criticised for raising money for charity in some quarters.
''Damned if they Do and Damned if they Don't'' describes the McCanns perfectly IMO.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: sadie on February 08, 2014, 11:55:08 AM
I read in the rotatory that Kate slept in the children's bedroom because Gerry had ignored her at the tapas. Not all sweetness and light then??
Some of you guys seem to get real pleasure out of anything that is in the slightest bit against The Mccanns. What is it to you? Most couples have had odd spats in their marriage . Are you married / with partner, Angelo? Have you never had a spat with your other half? What would you think if people started pulling your relationship apart based on a spat? Publicly.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 08, 2014, 01:34:16 PM
Most couples have had odd spats in their marriage . Are you married / with partner, Angelo? Have you never had a spat with your other half? What would you think if people started pulling your relationship apart based on a spat? Publicly.
I suppose the issue is the presentation of the perfect family, all sweetness and light. Most of us realise that couples have arguments. This is a serious argument a very short time before Madeleine disappeared and has to be investigated.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 02:13:30 PM
I suppose the issue is the presentation of the perfect family, all sweetness and light. Most of us realise that couples have arguments. This is a serious argument a very short time before Madeleine disappeared and has to be investigated.
Hardly serious. Jeezuz.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 02:19:07 PM
Just to prove that I don't always unfairly bash the McCann's, I'd have to agree with you here Eleanor.
I've been in the unfortunate position too many times where my wife has unleashed hell on me and things usually get resolved within a day or two. The thing is that I would consider myself to be well behaved and respectful towards my wife but unfortunately little things can seem much more serious and lead to temporary animosity. My experience is that it's only once things are discussed in a less volatile moment that things get smoothed out and disagreements put to rest.
Thank you. As you say, just minor dust ups.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 08, 2014, 04:48:01 PM
And if it was the Obrien child neither he mentions it or any one of the others mentioned hearing anything on all their "checks" that night, or after, id they went home before 11.45 and presumably all being the lower floor would hear it clearer than Mrs Fenn too. Not as if they didn't go into the tiniest details on everything else in their rogatories. Oh, maybe they weren't asked though!
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 04:51:06 PM
But Madeleine is reported to have said that two of them were crying. Did Mrs. Fenn report two of them crying?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 08, 2014, 05:14:45 PM
Only one child crying for her Daddy i.e. Madeleine. The cleaner came in on WED 2 MAY and said one cot was in the parents bedroom. All those phone calls on Kate's mobile just before 10.30pm. Many unanswered questions regarding the night of TUE 1 MAY.
"Kate McCann’s mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the “Tapas 9”."
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 05:27:54 PM
I could have sworn that Mrs. Fenn said she heard A CHILD crying.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 08, 2014, 05:37:10 PM
I could have sworn that Mrs. Fenn said she heard A CHILD crying.
It's perfectly clear in her statement that she is referring to Madeleine - child was older than 2.
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 05:37:22 PM
So are you saying that Madeleine cried on two days, but somehow failed to wake Sean or Amelie on one of those days?
That is one of the things that I find odd about Mrs Fenn's witness statement
She heard just one child crying ( in an increasingly distressed way ) for over an hour, suggesting that the crying did not wake up the other two children ( who would, if they had been awoken, surely have begun crying too )
The explanation might lie, I suppose, in the fact that the twins were extraordinarily heavy-sleepers ... the night Madeleine went missing is testemony to that
Absolute mayhem going on all around ... and they never once stirred
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 06:42:45 PM
I couldn't say. Can you? They clearly couldn't be woken on Thursday night. Why should other nights be different?
But Sean was crying on one night, so he must have woken. But on another night Madeleine was crying so loudly for an hour and a quarter that Mrs. Fenn could hear her, but she didn't wake Sean in the same room.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 06:44:46 PM
But Sean was crying on one night, so he must have woken. But on another night Madeleine was crying so loudly for an hour and a quarter that Mrs. Fenn could hear her, but she didn't wake Sean in the same room.
But how do we know? Only Kate's word of what she says Madeleine told her.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 08, 2014, 06:48:47 PM
That is one of the things that I find odd about Mrs Fenn's witness statement
She heard just one child crying ( in an increasingly distressed way ) for over an hour, suggesting that the crying did not wake up the other two children ( who would, if they had been awoken, surely have begun crying too )
The explanation might lie, I suppose, in the fact that the twins were extraordinarily heavy-sleepers ... the night Madeleine went missing is testemony to that
Absolute mayhem going on all around ... and they never once stirred
Yes, some children are very heavy sleepers and not easily disturbed, or get used to sleeping when there is a lot going on around them.
A friend of mine with a big family used to vacuum the small childrens' cots when they were asleep - and other such things - just to get them acclimatised to sleeping in a busy environment.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 06:52:21 PM
But how do we know? Only Kate's word of what she says Madeleine told her.
But Kate told at least one of the taps seven about what Madeleine had said before Madeleine was abducted. And why would Kate add Sean to the mix if it wasn't true?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 06:55:12 PM
Kate was only relaying what she says that Madeleine said. Madeleine might not have been telling the truth.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 08, 2014, 06:58:26 PM
But Kate told at least one of the taps seven about what Madeleine had said before Madeleine was abducted. And why would Kate add Sean to the mix if it wasn't true?
8)-))) If this was Agatha Christie, you'd have just solved the case.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Estuarine on February 08, 2014, 07:11:38 PM
One cannot be certain that Mrs. Fenn heard Madeleine crying for an hour and a quarter. So that's that then.
Who's this one ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 08, 2014, 08:45:13 PM
IMO PF is likely (while she heard the crying) to have been in 5G lounge (which is in the south half of 5G) because-
1. PF's TV was most likely in 5G lounge. 2. PF made phonecall to EG at about 23:00, and PF's landline phone is likely to be in 5G lounge. 3. PF heard 5A lounge patio door being operated at about 23:45, this indicates PF was in 5G lounge above that patio door.
Taking that line of deduction further, does this indicate that the crying she heard was directly beneath 5G lounge, in the south half of 5A (in lounge or South bedroom)?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 08, 2014, 09:00:51 PM
It is not fair to dismiss Mrs Fenn's statement without offering a plausible alternative. To simply say it must have been another child has no foundation. If it was not Madeleine then could you please give plausible reasons as to why it could not possibly be her?
Your earlier argument of 2 children crying has no credible basis on this particular night because the incident referred to was allegedly on the night after.
So, going back to the night of the 1st May if it wasn't Madeleine then who do you think it was?
Indeed, but the only argument is that the mccanns said they checked every half hour so it's her word aginst theirs
Plus the fact Km slagged her off in her book proves she didn't like her testimony!!!
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: j.rob on February 09, 2014, 04:05:41 PM
Kate was only relaying what she says that Madeleine said. Madeleine might not have been telling the truth.
Priceless! You are completely missing the point. What nonsense. So now we have Madeleine being called a liar. I suppose it's her fault she 'disappeared' is it? Rather than that of her negligent parents?
The point is that Kate CHOSE to relay an incident about something that Madeleine had (allegedly) said to her. Whether or not Madeleine actually said it (which I doubt, at least in the context that she has described) is not really the point.
The point is, Kate chose to mention it to friends (or so she says) and also she chose to record it in her book. She makes it clear in her book that she considers it significant as she implies that it might mean that the children had been disturbed by an intruder and had woken up and cried.
That is the inference she makes in her book.
Why does she infer this? Because she wants to promote her theory that an unknown abductor stole Madeleine from her bed. And she wants to sow the seed of possibility that the abductor may have tried to steal one of the children the previous evening, but they woke up and cried. Which would have meant that the abductor fled.
But her suggestion is that the abductor returned the following evening (and was even, perhaps, hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked at 9pm ish) and - because both of the parents negligently put their children in exactly the same position the following evening - despite Kate actually telling us that the children had been crying and Madeleine asked why they didn't come the previous evening - the abductor, this time, was successful in his abduction.
Never heard such a pile of complete garbage in all my entire life. Which ever way the McMyths spin the story (and boy can they spin) they both come out of it covered from head to toe in dirt. Their self-justifications, their pitiful attempts at creating some sort of narrative in which they can apportion blame onto anyone but themselves, their flagrant lack of consideration for their children. Their desperate attempts to cover their own backsides.
It all stinks.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 09, 2014, 04:36:19 PM
Priceless! You are completely missing the point. What nonsense. So now we have Madeleine being called a liar. I suppose it's her fault she 'disappeared' is it? Rather than that of her negligent parents?
The point is that Kate CHOSE to relay an incident about something that Madeleine had (allegedly) said to her. Whether or not Madeleine actually said it (which I doubt, at least in the context that she has described) is not really the point.
The point is, Kate chose to mention it to friends (or so she says) and also she chose to record it in her book. She makes it clear in her book that she considers it significant as she implies that it might mean that the children had been disturbed by an intruder and had woken up and cried.
That is the inference she makes in her book.
Why does she infer this? Because she wants to promote her theory that an unknown abductor stole Madeleine from her bed. And she wants to sow the seed of possibility that the abductor may have tried to steal one of the children the previous evening, but they woke up and cried. Which would have meant that the abductor fled.
But her suggestion is that the abductor returned the following evening (and was even, perhaps, hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked at 9pm ish) and - because both of the parents negligently put their children in exactly the same position the following evening - despite Kate actually telling us that the children had been crying and Madeleine asked why they didn't come the previous evening - the abductor, this time, was successful in his abduction.
Never heard such a pile of complete garbage in all my entire life. Which ever way the McMyths spin the story (and boy can they spin) they both come out of it covered from head to toe in dirt. Their self-justifications, their pitiful attempts at creating some sort of narrative in which they can apportion blame onto anyone but themselves, their flagrant lack of consideration for their children. Their desperate attempts to cover their own backsides.
It all stinks.
Amen
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2014, 04:45:48 PM
Priceless! You are completely missing the point. What nonsense. So now we have Madeleine being called a liar. I suppose it's her fault she 'disappeared' is it? Rather than that of her negligent parents?
The point is that Kate CHOSE to relay an incident about something that Madeleine had (allegedly) said to her. Whether or not Madeleine actually said it (which I doubt, at least in the context that she has described) is not really the point.
The point is, Kate chose to mention it to friends (or so she says) and also she chose to record it in her book. She makes it clear in her book that she considers it significant as she implies that it might mean that the children had been disturbed by an intruder and had woken up and cried.
That is the inference she makes in her book.
Why does she infer this? Because she wants to promote her theory that an unknown abductor stole Madeleine from her bed. And she wants to sow the seed of possibility that the abductor may have tried to steal one of the children the previous evening, but they woke up and cried. Which would have meant that the abductor fled.
But her suggestion is that the abductor returned the following evening (and was even, perhaps, hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked at 9pm ish) and - because both of the parents negligently put their children in exactly the same position the following evening - despite Kate actually telling us that the children had been crying and Madeleine asked why they didn't come the previous evening - the abductor, this time, was successful in his abduction.
Never heard such a pile of complete garbage in all my entire life. Which ever way the McMyths spin the story (and boy can they spin) they both come out of it covered from head to toe in dirt. Their self-justifications, their pitiful attempts at creating some sort of narrative in which they can apportion blame onto anyone but themselves, their flagrant lack of consideration for their children. Their desperate attempts to cover their own backsides.
It all stinks.
Excellent post.
8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Cariad on February 09, 2014, 06:20:58 PM
Priceless! You are completely missing the point. What nonsense. So now we have Madeleine being called a liar. I suppose it's her fault she 'disappeared' is it? Rather than that of her negligent parents?
The point is that Kate CHOSE to relay an incident about something that Madeleine had (allegedly) said to her. Whether or not Madeleine actually said it (which I doubt, at least in the context that she has described) is not really the point.
The point is, Kate chose to mention it to friends (or so she says) and also she chose to record it in her book. She makes it clear in her book that she considers it significant as she implies that it might mean that the children had been disturbed by an intruder and had woken up and cried.
That is the inference she makes in her book.
Why does she infer this? Because she wants to promote her theory that an unknown abductor stole Madeleine from her bed. And she wants to sow the seed of possibility that the abductor may have tried to steal one of the children the previous evening, but they woke up and cried. Which would have meant that the abductor fled.
But her suggestion is that the abductor returned the following evening (and was even, perhaps, hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked at 9pm ish) and - because both of the parents negligently put their children in exactly the same position the following evening - despite Kate actually telling us that the children had been crying and Madeleine asked why they didn't come the previous evening - the abductor, this time, was successful in his abduction.
Never heard such a pile of complete garbage in all my entire life. Which ever way the McMyths spin the story (and boy can they spin) they both come out of it covered from head to toe in dirt. Their self-justifications, their pitiful attempts at creating some sort of narrative in which they can apportion blame onto anyone but themselves, their flagrant lack of consideration for their children. Their desperate attempts to cover their own backsides.
It all stinks.
I really don't think that Jassi was missing the point, other than that, despite the rather inflammatory rhetoric, I'm inclined to agree.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 09, 2014, 06:32:09 PM
Priceless! You are completely missing the point. What nonsense. So now we have Madeleine being called a liar. I suppose it's her fault she 'disappeared' is it? Rather than that of her negligent parents?
The point is that Kate CHOSE to relay an incident about something that Madeleine had (allegedly) said to her. Whether or not Madeleine actually said it (which I doubt, at least in the context that she has described) is not really the point.
The point is, Kate chose to mention it to friends (or so she says) and also she chose to record it in her book. She makes it clear in her book that she considers it significant as she implies that it might mean that the children had been disturbed by an intruder and had woken up and cried.
That is the inference she makes in her book.
Why does she infer this? Because she wants to promote her theory that an unknown abductor stole Madeleine from her bed. And she wants to sow the seed of possibility that the abductor may have tried to steal one of the children the previous evening, but they woke up and cried. Which would have meant that the abductor fled.
But her suggestion is that the abductor returned the following evening (and was even, perhaps, hiding in the apartment when Gerry checked at 9pm ish) and - because both of the parents negligently put their children in exactly the same position the following evening - despite Kate actually telling us that the children had been crying and Madeleine asked why they didn't come the previous evening - the abductor, this time, was successful in his abduction.
Never heard such a pile of complete garbage in all my entire life. Which ever way the McMyths spin the story (and boy can they spin) they both come out of it covered from head to toe in dirt. Their self-justifications, their pitiful attempts at creating some sort of narrative in which they can apportion blame onto anyone but themselves, their flagrant lack of consideration for their children. Their desperate attempts to cover their own backsides.
It all stinks.
It must be a source of complete bewilderment to you that SY have arrived at the opposite conclusion to yours - and have not only ruled them out of the investigation but are treating this case as one of abduction.
Have you met the McCanns, or interviewed them - or spoken to the FLOs or the trauma counsellors, or their GP or the British Consul or to any of the people who have spent time with the McCanns as a result of the events of 3rd May - and who - (unlike Amaral) have all had first hand experience of the McCanns on which to form their opinions - and all of whom SY will have had easy access to - to aid them (if necessary) in making their own assessment of the credibility of the McCanns as reliable and truthful witnesses.
You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I cannot accept that any 'amateur' member of the general public who has never met or spoken to the McCanns or to anyone who does know them - is better placed to make an accurate assessment of their credibility than SY are with all the means they have at their disposal - without first of all removing every scrap of common sense, logic and reasoned thought from the equation. IMO
It is quite apparent from the statements made by SY that they are satisfied that the McCanns are credible, truthful witnesses - and so that's good enough for me.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 09, 2014, 06:33:31 PM
let's not forget the crying incident is an example of one of Kate mccanns proven lies....when she said if Madeleine was not abducted the crying incident as told to her by Madeleine on Thursday morning would ever ever cross her mind agan but she discussed it at length that thursday night at dinner before finding her gone
>@@(*&)
Oops when she said that in in may 2008 she had no idea what her three girl mates had said in their rogatory interviews
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: jassi on February 09, 2014, 06:35:17 PM
let's not forget the crying incident is an example of one of Kate mccanns proven lies....when she said if Madeleine was not abducted the crying incident as told to her by Madeleine on Thursday morning would ever ever cross her mind agan but she discussed it at length that night at dinner before finding her gone
>@@(*&)
Oops
How these little discrepancies keep cropping up @)(++(*
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 09, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
How these little discrepancies keep cropping up @)(++(*
Probably a translation error
Oh hang on lol
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: j.rob on February 09, 2014, 08:04:29 PM
Thanks for support! I do think the point about Madeleine not telling the truth is - unbelievably really. On so many levels.
Firstly, I do not believe she ever said it. It is not a credible comment from a three year old. I think it was an entirely fabricated conversation by the McCanns. Its purpose was to introduce the idea that a stranger may have entered the apartment on the evening before but fled when the children presumably were disturbed and then fled.
It probably also served to introduce the idea that the children all slept soundly and did not wake at night - or at least not until late at night when the parents would be back (despite evidence to the contrary). This would justify the child-care arrangements.
I think there was probably a further purpose - to show that the evening before Madeleine's alleged abduction Madeleine was fine, even if she did wake up and wonder where her parents were. And to show that the morning of her alleged abduction she was also fine - untroubled by what had happened.
In my opinion the conversation was a complete fabrication.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 09, 2014, 08:40:31 PM
Thanks for support! I do think the point about Madeleine not telling the truth is - unbelievably really. On so many levels.
Firstly, I do not believe she ever said it. It is not a credible comment from a three year old. I think it was an entirely fabricated conversation by the McCanns. Its purpose was to introduce the idea that a stranger may have entered the apartment on the evening before but fled when the children presumably were disturbed and then fled.
It probably also served to introduce the idea that the children all slept soundly and did not wake at night - or at least not until late at night when the parents would be back (despite evidence to the contrary). This would justify the child-care arrangements.
I think there was probably a further purpose - to show that the evening before Madeleine's alleged abduction Madeleine was fine, even if she did wake up and wonder where her parents were. And to show that the morning of her alleged abduction she was also fine - untroubled by what had happened.
In my opinion the conversation was a complete fabrication.
But that means the McCans were such thickos that it didn't occur to them that they could get exactly the same false message across without putting themselves in a bad light at all. e.g. '' Madeleine said she'd had a dream about a man in her room'' - or something similar. IMO They would have had to be thick to the point of being simpletons not to have realised something so obvious.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2014, 08:47:41 PM
But that means the McCans were such thickos that it didn't occur to them that they could get exactly the same false message across without putting themselves in a bad light at all. e.g. '' Madeleine said she'd had a dream about a man in her room'' - or something similar. IMO They would have had to be thick to the point of being simpletons not to have realised something so obvious.
'thickos' is definitely the appropriate description for the way two parents left their children in a dangerous predicament.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Anna on February 09, 2014, 10:31:22 PM
So how do you explain their willingness to allow a strange man to enter their apartment on 3rd May to check on their children? By that I refer to Matt Oldfield who the children did not know? If the children had been awake then surely the sight of this strange man would have been a frightening experience?
What makes you think that the children didn't know Matt?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 09, 2014, 10:52:40 PM
They need to find out more about Kate's phone calls just before Madeleine is reported to have started crying at 10.30. Has anyone got these number details?
"6 calls made in 11 minutes from 10.16 - 10.27pm" >@@(*&) About Gerry flirting with the quiz mistress
On Tuesday 1st May 2007, Kate McCann’s mobile first activated the Luz antenna at 10.16, but all details of the day’s calls have been deleted from the handset and there is no nothing in the CD from her mobile provider.
Tuesday night the quiz mistress Miss Nejoua Chekeya did not remember seeing Kate or DP at the tapas.
2 MAY - 5 more calls next morning between 7.36am and 8.55am. At least 3 to Amanda Coxon.
Husband of Amanda Coxon:
Dr Paul Whitaker, chemical pathologist in Leicester. KM texted Amanda, and received a return text, at 0736 on 2 May. KM rang their home number at 0605 on 4 May, and a conversation ensued for 11 minutes.
CLEANER WEDNESDAY MORNING: Maria Julia S. da Silva
the couple was sleeping in the room located opposite the entrance, where she confirmed the presence of a child’s bed (crib)
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Anna on February 09, 2014, 11:18:14 PM
Matt did not know the McCanns prior to the holiday other than having met them twice a number of years apart so no scope for knowing the children either. During the day the children attended the creche and at night the children were also not in their company. Matt never once checked on anybody else's children apart from the night of 3rd May when he allegedly checked on the McCanns. Kate was so worried about an intruder that she left the patio door unlocked and allowed a strange man in Matt to check rather than insist on doing it herself.
According to what I just read they ate together on the first night with the children at Millenium restaurant, travelled together at least some of the way, had lunch together in each others apts and went to the playground with the Kiddies, so not a stranger! Didn't they also go to the beach together at some time?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 10, 2014, 02:51:05 AM
No I can not find those numbers in the published files. Re the cleaning lady there is a video interview somewhere and she seems very honest IMO.
Yes hardly a hardened criminal or complicit in any child abduction!! Beggars belief really.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2014, 07:46:20 PM
Whilst looking at Gerry's statements I came across this...made before he was aware of Mrs Fenns statement
He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom, with KATE, as she had told him that one or both twins were crying, making much noise.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 12:52:41 AM
Yes what does that mean - Was Gerry in 5A when they were crying or just Kate? How didn't Gerry not hear it? What time was this crying? It's time they started answering some real questions.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 01:11:21 AM
IF hypothetically Mrs F's statement was mistranscribed and the crying was Wed night: Note 2 adults return seperately Wed night see statements. So when Mrs F hears patio door, it is not 2 adults returning as she assumes, it is 1. Adult 1 returns, opens patio door, comforts child, child stops crying. Adult 2 returns a few minutes later therefore never hears the crying.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 01:15:24 AM
Gerry said Mon or Tue not Wed.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 17, 2014, 01:24:00 AM
IF hypothetically Mrs F's statement was mistranscribed and the crying was Wed night: Note 2 adults return seperately Wed night see statements. So when Mrs F hears patio door, it is not 2 adults returning as she assumes, it is 1. Adult 1 returns, opens patio door, comforts child, child stops crying. Adult 2 returns a few minutes later therefore never hears the crying.
Rachael Oldfield was next door all Wednesday night. No way could she have missed any prolonged crying from next door. imo.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 01:44:26 AM
Mrs F stated crying stopped at about 23:45. Just saying if it was WED night then 23:45 fits excellently with the time when adult #1 returns to apartment.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: VIXTE on February 17, 2014, 02:07:47 AM
How would old Mrs F know the child crying is Madeleine?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 02:14:27 AM
How would old Mrs F know the child crying is Madeleine?
Mrs F indicated that crying came from apartment below, which narrows it down to 3 candidates, and what she says about age makes it likely it was the eldest of those 3 (source PF statement).
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 02:22:41 AM
Rachael Oldfield was next door all Wednesday night. No way could she have missed any prolonged crying from next door. imo.
If crying was in child bedroom (adjacent to RO bedroom) she would have heard. Therefore if crying was WED night, it was not in child bedroom.... It was in lounge, or in adult bedroom (neither of which are adjacent to RO bedroom).
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: VIXTE on February 17, 2014, 02:25:44 AM
Mrs F indicated that crying came from apartment below, which narrows it down to 3 candidates, and what she says about age makes it likely it was the eldest of those 3 (source PF statement).
IMO it is impossible by Mrs F to pin it to being Madeleine.. unless she was there and saw her crying..
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 02:34:48 AM
IMO it is impossible by Mrs F to pin it to being Madeleine.. unless she was there and saw her crying..
Well it seems very likely the crying was in 5A. Unless the crying stopping exactly at the moment when an adult returns is pure coincidence. Certainly one was crying, and the thing everyone has missed is that if it was WED nite then the 2nd returning adult would NOT have heard it.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: VIXTE on February 17, 2014, 02:38:05 AM
Well it seems very likely the crying was in 5A. Unless the crying stopping exactly at the moment when an adult returns is pure coincidence. Certainly one was crying, and the thing everyone has missed is that if it was WED nite then the 2nd returning adult would NOT have heard it.
How come?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 02:59:25 AM
Because on WED nite its in the statements adult 1 returns first then a bit later adult 2 returns. PS so if it was Wed nite then #2 never heard crying.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: VIXTE on February 17, 2014, 03:15:26 AM
But didn't the Mrs F say crying was on the 1st? Which is Tuesday.
pegasus you are tailoring the evidence into a theory..
I acknowledge that Mrs F's statement, as transcribed, states TUESDAY. I am suggesting the possibility that this was a mistranscription and/or mistranslation into Portuguese. If it was Tuesday it fits with nothing else. If it was Wednesday it fits with the time first adult returned (about 2345ish, see statements), and most important it fits with the child bringing it up the very next morning. Put it this way I think the child is correct and the translation/transcription of Mrs F's statement is incorrect.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 17, 2014, 07:17:49 AM
I acknowledge that Mrs F's statement, as transcribed, states TUESDAY. I am suggesting the possibility that this was a mistranscription and/or mistranslation into Portuguese. If it was Tuesday it fits with nothing else. If it was Wednesday it fits with the time first adult returned (about 2345ish, see statements), and most important it fits with the child bringing it up the very next morning. Put it this way I think the child is correct and the translation/transcription of Mrs F's statement is incorrect.
The child never said she cried the night before, according to her parents' statements. Perhaps the open shutters statement was a mistranscription ? Perhaps it should have been translated "shut" !
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: VIXTE on February 17, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
I acknowledge that Mrs F's statement, as transcribed, states TUESDAY. I am suggesting the possibility that this was a mistranscription and/or mistranslation into Portuguese. If it was Tuesday it fits with nothing else. If it was Wednesday it fits with the time first adult returned (about 2345ish, see statements), and most important it fits with the child bringing it up the very next morning. Put it this way I think the child is correct and the translation/transcription of Mrs F's statement is incorrect.
I don't understand this logic. You think Mrs F is right 100% guessing it was Madeleine crying. But then you think Mrs F is not right 100% about the day when this happened? Why it could not be Mrs F really heard crying on Tuesday, but this was not Madeleine?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 01:14:40 PM
I acknowledge that Mrs F's statement, as transcribed, states TUESDAY. I am suggesting the possibility that this was a mistranscription and/or mistranslation into Portuguese. If it was Tuesday it fits with nothing else. If it was Wednesday it fits with the time first adult returned (about 2345ish, see statements), and most important it fits with the child bringing it up the very next morning. Put it this way I think the child is correct and the translation/transcription of Mrs F's statement is incorrect.
The crying episode was mentioned before Madeleine disappeared which contradicts Kate saying that it wouldn't have crossed her mind again. Then she is worried about the unlocked patio door but sits with her back to it. Why wouldn't she want to see the unlocked patio door if she was worried? Have you ever thought that the crying episode had to be changed from TUE to WED because it was mentioned on the night Madeleine disappeared. It doesn't make sense to mention a TUE crying episode on the THUR. That would be mentioned on the WED evening unless there was a reason behind this crying incident being told on the night Madeleine disappeared. They cried abduction straight away - the crying episode set up the possibility of an abductor being present and the unlocked patio door set up how easy it was for an abductor to gain access to 5A.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 17, 2014, 01:39:27 PM
The crying episode was mentioned before Madeleine disappeared which contradicts Kate saying that it wouldn't have crossed her mind again. Then she is worried about the unlocked patio door but sits with her back to it. Why wouldn't she want to see the unlocked patio door if she was worried? Have you ever thought that the crying episode had to be changed from TUE to WED because it was mentioned on the night Madeleine disappeared. It doesn't make sense to mention a TUE crying episode on the THUR. That would be mentioned on the WED evening unless there was a reason behind this crying incident being told on the night Madeleine disappeared. They cried abduction straight away - the crying episode set up the possibility of an abductor being present and the unlocked patio door set up how easy it was for an abductor to gain access to 5A.
They were careful not to mention when the crying occurred (they knew Mrs Oldfield was on the other side of the wall). Nobody heard but everybody inferred the crying was the night before. The crying episode explained the open door-window that Mr Oldfield's inside check (due to open shutters he couldn't pass by without noticing) required. The forced (best) or open (second best) shutters were crucial. This is what brought the media circus to PDL.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 17, 2014, 01:49:01 PM
Mrs Fenn's statement
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
I don't understand this bit. Can anyone translate the Portuguese?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Lace on February 17, 2014, 02:12:04 PM
I have been wondering if the crying Mrs. Fenn heard and the crying Madeleine spoke about are one and the same.
Madeleine said 'why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying' Kate McCann said that Amelie woke up on the Tuesday night crying. Amelie woke Sean and Madeleine. Mrs. Fenn heard Amelie crying and then Sean, then she heard Madeleine calling 'Daddy'.
Madeleine then said on the Thursday morning 'why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying' meaning when Amelie woke them up. Children very often get the days mixed up and it was on her mind as she went into her parents bedroom where she stayed the rest of the night.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 17, 2014, 02:14:04 PM
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night. She wasn't home in the evening, only later, meaning she slept at home.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
I don't understand this bit. Can anyone translate the Portuguese?
She wasn't home in the evening, only later, meaning she slept at home.
Oh I see, thanks Anne
@Lace Her niece was definitely there on the 3rd, though her statement is confusing as she had difficulty remembering whether she saw the man early or later in the day
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Lace on February 17, 2014, 02:36:49 PM
@Lace Her niece was definitely there on the 3rd, though her statement is confusing as she had difficulty remembering whether she saw the man early or later in the day
Oh right, thanks Red.
Strange her niece didn't mention the crying incidence.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 17, 2014, 03:01:01 PM
Why is not the worst thing for you out of all of it that a little girl was abducted from her bed?
The worst thing for me is that a little girl went on holiday and did not return and no one has the remotest idea of her fate apart from the guilty parties who ever they may be. The rest is speculation evidenced by the fact that no realistic proposition is in the frame let alone anyone having been charged.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 17, 2014, 04:02:39 PM
Yes, we know, the PJ made it all up for some reason but Mrs Fenn signed her statement anyway
Consider all the facts.
Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until about 3 months after the crime -- an extraordinary fact, given that she was the person in closest proximity to the crime when the crime was committed, but perhaps not so extraordinary if, in fact, she had nothing very particular to say about it
Advanced billing of Mrs Fenn's interview was about a crime of which she, herself, was a victim, a break-in and attempted burglary of her own flat.
Mrs Fenn, herself, is on record in a verbatim quote as saying she did not realise the holiday apartment was occupied.
The very first people to say anything about Madeleine crying, way before they were made arguidos, were Kate and Gerry McCann ...
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 17, 2014, 04:15:05 PM
False and misleading statement there, she said nothing of the sort, pleeeease don't do another groundhog day....
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz2tb5BhxGW Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 17, 2014, 04:34:09 PM
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz2tb5BhxGW Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Oh dear
A) saying she didn't know the flat was occupied is not the same as saying she didn't know that family or any other for that matter was in there
B) in her statement she describes seeing them during the week, oh, but, it was altered you think by police
the minute you take a mail or any other article over police statements is the minute hive totally lost your argument IMO
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: EnolaStraight on February 17, 2014, 04:42:16 PM
Its not me asserting what her words were as reported by a newspaper which could have been misconstrued at best or taken out of context, it's FM
Her statement is in the files, actually linked in this thread, just scroll up a bit
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 04:56:39 PM
The police misunderstood witness CT and had her seeing GateMan on the 29th. Wrong by 4 days! Therefore it is possible IMO that police misunderstood Mrs F and got crying date wrong by 1 day.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 07:42:45 PM
But on Wed she is not 1st returner. Its in the statements. 2nd returner actually. Thats the point. Therefore she truthfully never heard it. IMO.
Conclusion : no crying on Wednesday. Hence the crying episode was at another day and time. Some remark, not expressed the reported way (a scared kid of that age doesn't use that syntax), but likely when the crying stopped suddenly on Tuesday ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 11:24:22 PM
Conclusion : no crying on Wednesday. Hence the crying episode was at another day and time. Some remark, not expressed the reported way (a scared kid of that age doesn't use that syntax), but likely when the crying stopped suddenly on Tuesday ?
My conclusion is: it is possible the crying was on the Wed and if so the 2nd person returning would not hear it.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 17, 2014, 11:28:52 PM
My conclusion is: it is possible the crying was on the Wed and if so the 2nd person returning would not hear it.
How do you explain Mrs Oldfield didn't hear it (she was on the other side of a thin wall) ? Are you suggesting that the 1st person kept the crying unknown to the 2nd person ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 17, 2014, 11:29:28 PM
ROFL back at you! I don't remember that, just posts at Mrs Fenns old age/bad hearing/bad memory etc
I know, but Mrs Oldfield, who revealed a sight disturbance when stating that the McCanns lifted the sliding door shutters each time they entered, could as well have some hearing difficulty...
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 12:12:45 AM
So was Rachel oldfield in a coma? Not hearing prolonged and loud crying for over an hour? On Wednesday?
Crying was in (or near) SOUTH end of 5A IMO. Thats why Mrs F did hear it (in 5G lounge which is directly above SOUTH end of 5A) And thats why RO did not hear it (asleep in 5B bedroom which is NOT adjacent to SOUTH end of 5A).
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 12:14:02 AM
I know, but Mrs Oldfield, who revealed a sight disturbance when stating that the McCanns lifted the sliding door shutters each time they entered, could as well have some hearing difficulty...
More like mental difficulty !!!
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 12:16:41 AM
Crying was in SOUTH end of 5A IMO. Thats why Mrs F did hear it (in 5G lounge which is directly above SOUTH end of 5A) And thats why RO did not hear it (asleep in 5B bedroom which is NOT adjacent to SOUTH end of 5A).
Suggests Madeleine was sleeping in her parents bed maybe
Don't thnk a few feet would silence prolonged crying either for Rachel! What's a few feet between side by side flats and upstairs flats?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 12:26:49 AM
Suggests Madeleine was sleeping in her parents bed maybe
Don't thnk a few feet would silence prolonged crying either for Rachel! What's a few feet between side by side flats and upstairs flats?
IMO child in that situation would be out of bed and in lounge at patio door or window. Thinking about it, there is even a further possibility which would make audibility above even greater and audibility in north end of 5B even lower.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 12:43:22 AM
IMO child in that situation would be out of bed and in lounge at patio door or window. Thinking about it, there is even a further possibility which would make audibility above even greater and audibility in north end of 5B even lower.
Having trouble understanding that, but do you mean maybe maddie was on the patio crying? never mind, have to go now if anything specific by your thinking will have been in the parents bedroom surely
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 18, 2014, 01:09:38 AM
Why don't you think that Mrs Fenn would remember if the crying happened on the night before she disappeared? It wouldn't be hard to forget that now would it but she clearly said the crying was on TUE 1 MAY. Rachael wasn't in so that explains why she didn't hear any crying. The cleaner said a cot was inside the parents bedroom the next day >@@(*&) The phone calls made by Kate in 5A just before 10.30 woke Madeleine up from her sleep IMO.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 01:30:18 AM
I never claimed Mrs F got the date wrong. I am claiming that possibly the police english-to-portuguese translation and transcription during her statement got the date wrong. We do NOT have her actual original English words. We are working from what got written down in Portuguese language by the police transcriber. And yes I am aware of the other sources on this like the early PDL posters "dumbfounded" and "local resident"
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 01:31:40 PM
I never claimed Mrs F got the date wrong. I am claiming that possibly the police english-to-portuguese translation and transcription during her statement got the date wrong. We do NOT have her actual original English words. We are working from what got written down in Portuguese language by the police transcriber. And yes I am aware of the other sources on this like the early PDL posters "dumbfounded" and "local resident"
Forget it, Pegasus, as you seem to reckon that Mrs Fenn's faculties were in a good state, though the contrary was suggested by some posters, you'll have to admit that, when she, looking at the written Portuguese translation of her statement, heard the interpreter translate it back in English, she would have noticed a lost in translation. This was done taking time and sitting at a table. Numbers need no translation and Mrs Fenn knew certainly a few necessary words in Portuguese, like the names of the days. Would you suspect the interpreter of malice, then you'd have to explain how the police officer who, according to the Portuguese education system, at least studied English for 5 years, didn't react.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 02:59:55 PM
Mrs F states the crying stopped at about 2345 when someone returned. I am just pointing out that on Wed night the first adult returns at estimated time 2350 and second at estimated time 2355 see 06 Sept statement KM. So the time matches very well if it was Wed night.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 03:14:05 PM
Mrs F states the crying stopped at about 2345 when someone returned. I am just pointing out that on Wed night the first adult returns at estimated time 2350 and second at estimated time 2355 see 06 Sept statement KM. So the time matches very well if it was Wed night.
@)(++(* The time "matches very well" (with a discrepancy of 5/10 minutes), then the interpreter misunderstood and Mrs Fenn was fooled !
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 18, 2014, 03:15:53 PM
Mrs F states the crying stopped at about 2345 when someone returned. I am just pointing out that on Wed night the first adult returns at estimated time 2350 and second at estimated time 2355 see 06 Sept statement KM. So the time matches very well if it was Wed night.
So why didn't Mrs Fenn hear the patio doors opening twice?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 04:00:00 PM
So why didn't Mrs Fenn hear the patio doors opening twice?
Mrs F mentions hearing the patio door because it is directly relevant to and linked to the end of of the crying. I imagine that as soon as she heard someone return home and the crying stop, she would stop worrying and go to bed (in bedroom in north part of 5G), and therefore would not hear the patio door if it was slid again about 5 minutes later.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 04:11:28 PM
@)(++(* The time "matches very well" (with a discrepancy of 5/10 minutes), then the interpreter misunderstood and Mrs Fenn was fooled !
Equally one might ask: How was it possible in her niece CT's first statement for so many details to be transcribed correctly: the location of the gate, the gateman's behaviour, which ways he looked, his hair colour and length, yet for the date to be transcribed completely wrong by 4 days.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 04:37:32 PM
Equally one might ask: How was it possible in her niece CT's first statement for so many details to be transcribed correctly: the location of the gate, the gateman's behaviour, which ways he looked, his hair colour and length, yet for the date to be transcribed completely wrong by 4 days.
What do you mean ? Do you know of a statement that isn't the rog one ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 05:04:31 PM
Does it matter at the end of the day if it was Tuesday or Wednesday? Mrs Fenn heard this prolonged crying?
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 05:15:30 PM
What do you mean ? Do you know of a statement that isn't the rog one ?
Yes CT made a statement to police on 8th May 2007 and signed the transcript. I don't have the statement itself. But it is clearly referred to in the rog and part of its text is read out so certainly it exists. And BTW the date of CT's arrival was transcribed wrongly (by 28 days!) in that first statement. Just shows how it is possible for a date to be written down wrong even when the witness is not elderly, and even when there is no translator involved.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 05:22:49 PM
Yes CT made a statement to police on 8th May 2007 and signed the transcript. I don't have the statement itself. But it is clearly referred to in the rog and part of its text is read out so certainly it exists. And BTW the date of CT's arrival was transcribed wrongly (by 28 days!) in that first statement. Just shows how it is possible for a date to be written down wrong even when the witness is not elderly, and even when there is no translator involved.
So why did she sign it then? If it was wrong?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 05:26:07 PM
It matters if it can prove that a person unjustly accused was it fact telling the truth and genuinely unaware of the crying.
I dont get it. The crying was going on continuously for so long therefore if child checks were taking place ever half hour someone will have been aware of it, whatever day it was
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 05:40:21 PM
Because sometimes people sign police transcripts without fully reading and checking every detail. Here is what CT says about the first interview transcript having a date wrong by 28 days: "I should have read this"
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
Because sometimes people sign police transcripts without fully reading and checking every detail. Here is what CT says about the first interview transcript which she signed having a date wrong by 28 days: "I should have read this"
Thanks, but it doesnt mean she didnt give the wrong dates herself in the first place, police not normally that sloppy are they? Not just getting whole months but days wrong as well. CT was in her fifties, so possibly a bit ditsy with memory herself.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 05:44:07 PM
Yes CT made a statement to police on 8th May 2007 and signed the transcript. I don't have the statement itself. But it is clearly referred to in the rog and part of its text is read out so certainly it exists. And BTW the date of CT's arrival was transcribed wrongly (by 28 days!) in that first statement. Just shows how it is possible for a date to be written down wrong even when the witness is not elderly, and even when there is no translator involved.
How do you know that ? Are you sure CT signed the missing (?) document ? It might have been just a note, it's not in the files. The transcripts of the rogs were the responsibility of the LC. In the case of Mr and Mrs Payne not of the files written statements, the LC PO transcribed a time obviously erroneous. There's no lost in translation there. You can't infer from a mistake in transcription that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying on the day that suits your theory (btw when would Mrs Fenn have gone out according to you ?) Now the person whom Mrs Fenn called on the phone is hopefully still alive in PDL. You have no authority to ask the PJ to check whether your suspicion is based or not, but I think it would not really be invasive to send this person a letter with a question, especially if the justification is to exonerate totally someone.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 05:49:12 PM
It matters if it can prove that a person unjustly accused was it fact telling the truth and genuinely unaware of the crying.
Who is accused ? AFAIK, nobody can be accused if the crime isn't determined. Of course everybody has their own suspicions, this isn't avoidable. But it's far to be accusations ! Besides, unless you are this person or this person's confident, how do you know where the truth is and where it is not ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 05:59:36 PM
If a witness says "the 28th" and the police write down "28th May" then that is a police transcription error.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 06:06:34 PM
Who is accused ? AFAIK, nobody can be accused if the crime isn't determined. Of course everybody has their own suspicions, this isn't avoidable. But it's far to be accusations ! Besides, unless you are this person or this person's confident, how do you know where the truth is and where it is not ?
By working it out carefully. For example by working out that KM and PF statements contradict each other if it was Tue night, but do not contradict each other if it was Wed night.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 06:48:53 PM
By working it out carefully. For example by working out that KM and PF statements contradict each other if it was Tue night, but do not contradict each other if it was Wed night.
You're a curious person, Pegasus ! Do contradictions make you suffer ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 07:39:45 PM
IF that transcription is wrong and it was Wednesday the solution is easy. P hears crying which stops about 2345. K returns at about 2355 and hears no crying. No contradiction there. BTW also staff statement has the late night being Wed not Tue
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 08:01:02 PM
IF that transcription is wrong and it was Wednesday the solution is easy. P hears crying which stops about 2345. K returns at about 2355 and hears no crying. No contradiction there. BTW also staff statement has the late night being Wed not Tue
So why didnt K or G hear no crying prior to returning that night, ie on their half hourly checks? Or do you think they may not have done any, but thats not what they say
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 08:10:41 PM
IF that transcription is wrong and it was Wednesday the solution is easy. P hears crying which stops about 2345. K returns at about 2355 and hears no crying. No contradiction there. BTW also staff statement has the late night being Wed not Tue
The solution ? Do you mean the solution of the case depends on admitting a transcription mistake or a lost in translation or whatever in Mrs Fenn's statement ? Go on then, please tell the solution ! I feel that if it's all it takes to reach the solution, I might change my mind about Mrs Fenn's accurate memory or the interpreter's competence.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 08:22:29 PM
IMO the period estimated to last on Wednesday night about 45 minutes by KM (from last check until 1st adult gets home), and the period estimated to last about 75 minutes by PF, are likely to be one and the same.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 18, 2014, 08:32:11 PM
The solution ? Do you mean the solution of the case depends on admitting a transcription mistake or a lost in translation or whatever in Mrs Fenn's statement ? Go on then, please tell the solution ! I feel that if it's all it takes to reach the solution, I might change my mind about Mrs Fenn's accurate memory or the interpreter's competence.
Solution meaning "solution IMO to how PF and KM descriptions of hearing / not hearing the crying are both truthful "
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 09:00:35 PM
IMO the period estimated to last on Wednesday night about 45 minutes by KM (from last check until 1st adult gets home), and the period estimated to last about 75 minutes by PF, are likely to be one and the same.
Sorry, that doesnt make sense at all
45 mins from last check would be a last check at 11 pm by which time the crying is said to have been going on for half an hour! So would have been heard!
Is it me? Or is this getting wierd.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Estuarine on February 18, 2014, 09:21:04 PM
45 mins from last check would be a last check at 11 pm by which time the crying is said to have been going on for half an hour! So would have been heard!
Is it me? Or is this getting wierd.
Not weird but about as pointless as the thread on woofers has become. Only my opinion of course @)(++(* Off to listen to a bit of heavy metal; well if I am going to have a headache it's a better way of having one. Catch you rater
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 18, 2014, 09:27:11 PM
Not weird but about as pointless as the thread on woofers has become. Only my opinion of course @)(++(* Off to listen to a bit of heavy metal; well if I am going to have a headache it's a better way of having one. Catch you rater
LOL too true!!, enjoy, off myself
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 18, 2014, 11:08:08 PM
Solution meaning "solution IMO to how PF and KM descriptions of hearing / not hearing the crying are both truthful "
I see : you're a conciliator ! The benefit of changing not only the date but also how long the crying lasted is that either PF and KM would have said the truth ! How does that lead to a solution for Madeleine's disappearance if you please ? And out of curiosity, are you as worried about Mr McCann's eventual lies ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 18, 2014, 11:25:46 PM
I see : you're a conciliator ! The benefit of changing not only the date but also how long the crying lasted is that either PF and KM would have said the truth ! How does that lead to a solution for Madeleine's disappearance if you please ? And out of curiosity, are you as worried about Mr McCann's eventual lies ?
remember there is only one proven, convicted liar in this sorry affair...amaral...calling gerry a liar is just your opinion
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 20, 2014, 08:51:49 PM
Mrs F states the crying continued until about 23:45. Read the independent barman's statement, he states it was WED night the adults returned late.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 09:07:03 PM
Mrs F states the crying continued until about 23:45. Read the independent barman's statement, he states it was WED night the adults returned late.
Which one?
Jeronimo Rodrigues states this: which puts wednesday night's end much later (the night they stayed longer for more drinks)
Generally, they left the Tapas at 23h30/midnight, at times together and at other times in small groups. On the night in which they drank more than usual, they left a bit later, perhaps towards 00h30-01h00. I remember this detail because I was supposed to finish work at 00H00 and I wanted to go home.
Jeronimo Rodrigues states this: which puts wednesday night's end much later (the night they stayed longer for more drinks)
Generally, they left the Tapas at 23h30/midnight, at times together and at other times in small groups. On the night in which they drank more than usual, they left a bit later, perhaps towards 00h30-01h00. I remember this detail because I was supposed to finish work at 00H00 and I wanted to go home.
Yes and also we have the waiter Oliveiras who says on Wed night the group moved from the table to the bar and stayed until about 0000 or 0010. However the first adult to return to sleep at 5A on Wed did not stay at the bar as long as the others.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 09:41:05 PM
Yes and also we have the waiter Oliveiras who says on Wed night the group moved from the table to the bar and stayed until about 0000 or 0010. However the first adult to return to sleep at 5A on Wed did not stay at the bar as long as the others.
Yes, of course you are quite right, he did say in his other statement they didnt all always leave together at the same time, my apologies, but still, how can you be sure it was only the wednesday night someone returned at 11.45 pm judging by what that waiter said (that I linked to)
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 20, 2014, 09:58:25 PM
Yes, of course you are quite right, he did say in his other statement they didnt all always leave together at the same time, my apologies, but still, how can you be sure it was only the wednesday night someone returned at 11.45 pm judging by what that waiter said (that I linked to)
The sources that on Wed night the first adult returned home to sleep earlier than the others (who remained longer in enclosed bar) are IIRC KM book ch4 and KM statement 6Sept2007.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 10:14:05 PM
The sources that on Wed night the first adult returned home to sleep earlier than the others (who remained longer in enclosed bar) are IIRC KM book ch4 and KM statement 6Sept2007.
But that doesnt prove that no one returned home at a similar time on tuesday which is the whole point here as you are trying to suggest the cryng incident Mrs Fenn heard could have been the Wednesday and not the Tuesday
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 20, 2014, 10:37:25 PM
But that doesnt prove that no one returned home at a similar time on tuesday which is the whole point here as you are trying to suggest the cryng incident Mrs Fenn heard could have been the Wednesday and not the Tuesday >@@(*&)
If hypothetically it was Wed night, as I am proposing, it is easy to prove that the second adult returning would not have heard it, and would have known nothing about it at all that night (everyone else asleep) and would only learn when told the next morning.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 10:41:23 PM
If hypothetically it was Wed night, as I am proposing, it is easy to prove that the second adult returning would not have heard it, and would have known nothing about it at all that night (everyone else asleep) and would only learn when told the next morning.
Oh I see, but you have lost me there, as I dont see the relevance of it
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 20, 2014, 11:01:42 PM
Back when I was a new mum, Jimmy Barnes played at our local oval.
The most exciting thing to happen around here in decades and I'm a huge fan.
My next door neighbour arranged for us to sit on her front verandah to hear it better, my house was tucked behind hers.
I went to the effort of borrowing a baby monitor, bought my wine and was ready to listen to some sweet tunes.
First of all i had to ask my neighbour to check she heard me as I went back to the babys room to whisper in the monitor. Baby slept soundly but I was paranoid as a mum.
All worked well. My neighbour heard my whispers, the thing was working just fine.
So I went back to the verandah...sat there for about 2 minutes then thought, "is that monitor still working? Its so quiet" so I had to ask the neighbour to listen again, run back to whisper again etc.
It became obvious after about 10 minutes that I was going to miss hearing that concert. My nerves, mothering instinct, whatever, made me go home to my baby. I simply could not trust a little piece of machinery to tell me my most precious possession was safe and sound.
The McCanns did not even trouble themselves with a monitor - the first night or the last, when they KNEW about Madeleine and Sean crying the evening/s before.
They just skipped off without a backward glance.
This is not the action of normal parents. Even their cronies had monitors.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 20, 2014, 11:04:53 PM
Oh I see, but you have lost me there, as I dont see the relevance of it
Basically if you stick with the crying being Tue night then logically the child would report it Wed morning so what some posters would do is probably use the "oh that whole Thu morning report by child never happened" line, but I think the Thu morning report did happen and refers to Wed night
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2014, 11:05:17 PM
Back when I was a new mum, Jimmy Barnes played at our local oval.
The most exciting thing to happen around here in decades and I'm a huge fan.
My next door neighbour arranged for us to sit on her front verandah to hear it better, my house was tucked behind hers.
I went to the effort of borrowing a baby monitor, bought my wine and was ready to listen to some sweet tunes.
First of all i had to ask my neighbour to check she heard me as I went back to the babys room to whisper in the monitor. Baby slept soundly but I was paranoid as a mum.
All worked well. My neighbour heard my whispers, the thing was working just fine.
So I went back to the verandah...sat there for about 2 minutes then thought, "is that monitor still working? Its so quiet" so I had to ask the neighbour to listen again, run back to whisper again etc.
It became obvious after about 10 minutes that I was going to miss hearing that concert. My nerves, mothering instinct, whatever, made me go home to my baby. I simply could not trust a little piece of machinery to tell me my most precious possession was safe and sound.
The McCanns did not even trouble themselves with a monitor - the first night or the last, when they KNEW about Madeleine and Sean crying the evening/s before.
They just skipped off without a backward glance.
This is not the action of normal parents. Even their cronies had monitors.
I had a tear in my eye reading that amazing story
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
Basically if you stick with the crying being Tue night then logically the child would report it Wed morning so what some posters would do is probably use the "oh that whole Thu morning report by child never happened" line, but I think the Thu morning report did happen and refers to Wed night
Its simple pegasus, the child cried both nights, perhaps not as much on the wednesday
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 20, 2014, 11:09:41 PM
Basically if you stick with the crying being Tue night then logically the child would report it Wed morning so what some posters would do is probably use the "oh that whole Thu morning report by child never happened" line, but I think the Thu morning report did happen and refers to Wed night
I think they cried every night.
They were only overheard once by Mrs Fenn but that was enough for the entire "Madeleine asked us where we were then moved on" bs from Kate, but only when they knew there was a witness.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 11:21:04 PM
They were only overheard once by Mrs Fenn but that was enough for the entire "Madeleine asked us where we were then moved on" bs from Kate, but only when they knew there was a witness.
But the cryng story was in their first interviews on may 4
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 20, 2014, 11:27:12 PM
Its simple pegasus, the child cried both nights, perhaps not as much on the wednesday
Based on the hypothesis that the specific crying described by Mrs F may have had one word transcribed wrong and really be Wed night, I thought I had showed some good consistency between the accounts of these three witnesses: the person in the thread title, the neighbor, and the child.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 20, 2014, 11:35:29 PM
Based on the hypothesis that the specific crying described by Mrs F may have had one word transcribed wrong and really be Wed night, I thought I had showed some good consistency between the accounts of these three witnesses: the person in the thread title, the neighbor, and the child.
Sorry, to attribute a single word "transcribed wrongly" (like days of the week are transcribed wrongly, granted dates and tmes may be) doesnt take into account Mrs Fenn sayng nothing to report for the Wednesday the 2nd
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Benice on February 21, 2014, 12:05:13 AM
Basically if you stick with the crying being Tue night then logically the child would report it Wed morning so what some posters would do is probably use the "oh that whole Thu morning report by child never happened" line, but I think the Thu morning report did happen and refers to Wed night
You may have convinced yourself that Rachael Oldfield who was right next door for the whole of Wednesay evening didn't hear a long crying episode that was alledgedly heard by a person on another floor - but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me.
Neither am I convinced that if Mrs Fenn could hear the patio door open - she would not have heard it open again a short time afterwards - when apparently the crying had stopped and so it would be very quiet.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: AnneGuedes on February 21, 2014, 12:13:21 AM
Based on the hypothesis that the specific crying described by Mrs F may have had one word transcribed wrong and really be Wed night, I thought I had showed some good consistency between the accounts of these three witnesses: the person in the thread title, the neighbor, and the child.
What about getting rid of your wings, Pegasus, and get back to the ground ?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 21, 2014, 12:29:25 AM
They cried.
What night? I believe every night.
It's fairly irrelevant anyway. Even one night is enough to make most folks revise their dinner plans.
Not this crew. They were in for a big night, yet again.
Personally i cannot drink alcohol every single day and the fact this mob did means they are a bunch of boozers at least.
Doctors!!!! Hitting the booze [ ....moderated ...] regardless of their babies needs. ?8)@)-)
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pegasus on February 21, 2014, 01:00:43 AM
OK. No-one agrees with me on Wed night so I see no point in suggesting a sequence for Wed night in greater detail. So back to Mrs F hearing the crying for 75 minutes on Tue night. How does the item washed Thu AM fit with your Tue night theory? Does your Tue night theory dismiss the child's report on Thu morning as fabricated?
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: sadie on February 21, 2014, 10:42:08 AM
It's fairly irrelevant anyway. Even one night is enough to make most folks revise their dinner plans.
Not this crew. They were in for a big night, yet again.
Personally i cannot drink alcohol every single day and the fact this mob did means they are a bunch of boozers at least.
Doctors!!!! Hitting the booze day and night, regardless of their babies needs. ?8)@)-)
Sillywhiskers
Your post is the height of silliness.
1) You believe "they cried every night"... no evidence .... in fact to the contrary .... seems they slept well, with just one night a little disturbed per Kates statement. There is no way that Mrs Fenns crying report can be definitely attributed to the Mccann children. In fact it is likely to be another family cos, had one of the Mccann children started off crying loudly, then all three of them would have been at it, yelling their heads off.
2) "They were in for a big night" <<<< so having their dinner 50 metres away is "the big night" is it? At least you are correct that they were "in" rather than "out". They did not go out to some fancy restaurant over 200 metres away as some of the early myths spread said. That was pure propaganda.
They stayed in their "back gaden" only about 50 metres away from their apartment and the group could see the patio windows from where they sat. The patio area was immediately across the road from a street lamp and light streamed through a large arched side window straight on to the patio itself, so reasonably well lit.
Having reasonable quantities of wine with a meal does not make you "a boozer". From the statements of the waiters, only four bottles were opened and they were unfinished in one and a half hours. Likely that wine was left in most of the glasses too. So unfinished bottles and unfinished glasses. Not excessive at all.
Between 9 adults eating a meal, 4 bottles is well within the norm .... and unfinished too. They were not boozers at all.
"Boozers, day and night" ? Day and night? get your facts in order and pls dont say things that you have dreamt up ... [unless you specify that you dont know, but just think, maybe] ..... cos it aint fair.
You are spreading disinformation ... a kind of propaganda.
You are also sounding very narrow minded and bigotted ...
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Eleanor on February 21, 2014, 11:41:11 AM
a lot of people in france drink every day, with dinner, and france has one of the lowest rates for alcoholism and heart attacks.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: Redblossom on February 21, 2014, 12:55:31 PM
OK. No-one agrees with me on Wed night so I see no point in suggesting a sequence for Wed night in greater detail. So back to Mrs F hearing the crying for 75 minutes on Tue night. How does the item washed Thu AM fit with your Tue night theory? Does your Tue night theory dismiss the child's report on Thu morning as fabricated?
Should there be a link? Between cryng episode(s) and tea stains washed out on the Thursday? You lost me.
Title: Re: The crying incident as reported by Kate McCann.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 21, 2014, 08:16:21 PM
Should there be a link? Between cryng episode(s) and tea stains washed out on the Thursday? You lost me.
The stain could mean that Madeleine slept right through on WED with no crying at all. Maybe after the TUE crying episode something was used for the next night to help her sleep and she spat it out on to her top that had to be cleaned. It had to be mentioned in case she was found which indicates that she could be found.