Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Wonderfulspam on December 19, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
Title: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 19, 2013, 10:19:16 PM
The Find Madeleine Website, 19 December 2013
1) The e-fits, created in conjunction with the Smith family, which DCI Andy Redwood described as being of 'vital importance' to the investigation - and which were suppressed for five years, under the threat of legal action, by the McCanns - have now been expunged from the site, after just 2 months. Replaced by a snowflake Christmas tree and a message from Kate, which informs us that everything is moving too fast for her!
2) The alleged sighting by Jane Tanner, which was summarily dismissed by DCI Redwood and his investigation team during the Crimewatch programme is still being promoted by the site, alongside a wholly inaccurate depiction of the man seen by the Smith family.
3) The Google Checkout button, used previously for donations, is still on the site, even though Google Checkout ceased to exist from 21 November 2013. As mentioned previously on this site, the new payment provider recommended by Google can integrate their payment system in an hour - in under half an hour for a competent website developer. Google gave 6 months notice of the change, so why has this issue still not been resolved?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 19, 2013, 10:31:17 PM
Seems the only place these crucial new SY efits appeared on the official madeleine site has now been replaced by a xmas update message
Maybe they will return after xmas.....
Not just there, but on the proper home page, maybe under a new page created for them, (you would think 700k being spent by the BBC to make this Crimewatch and SY involvement and an appeal for witnesess to come forward re the two new efits would warrant this) or just added to the "suspects page" which still only features Tannerman, Spottyman and Beckywoman, the first of which has almost been totally been dismissed by SY and the other two not given any notice at all by them
Even when they were up, there was no detail, as there is normally with CW style appeals, ie this man was seen at such and such a place, at such and such time, by such and such people......there was an "update" two weeks after the crimewatch programme, no mention of them there or a link either .......
No, of course they were not suppressed, and still arent, they are given high publicity on the official findmadeleine site, arent they? If anyone can point me to it be much obliged....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: faithlilly on December 19, 2013, 10:48:53 PM
Seems you can't access the Crimewatch reconstruction through their official website either as it simply buffers and skips to the next video.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 19, 2013, 10:54:01 PM
Seems you can't access the Crimewatch reconstruction through their official website either as it simply buffers and skips to the next video.
I found that too, eventually it played but with a black screen...you have to click on the link (after youve cicked on the please watch and share the latest reconstruction link) at the bottom of the box that says "view show"
Sorry OP, I cross posted on the Exton thread ,before i saw this one....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pegasus on December 19, 2013, 10:58:23 PM
Confirmed can't find the relevant two photofits anywhere there as images.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: faithlilly on December 19, 2013, 10:59:46 PM
I found that too, eventually it played but with a black screen...you have to click on the link (after youve cicked on the please watch and share the latest reconstruction link) at the bottom of the box that says "view show"
Sorry OP, I cross posted on the Exton thread ,before i saw this one....
Thanks Red. Not exactly user-friendly though is it ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 19, 2013, 11:07:38 PM
Really not keen on Smithman are they. I wonder why that might be.
It appears yet again that P.R is more important to them than actually finding their missing daughter
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 19, 2013, 11:08:08 PM
Lots of other things on there seem to be.....in fact.....most...
the latest development fanfared by SY doesnt seem to be any kind of priority, at all
I reckon with a certain satisfaction that they didn't swallow the rotten pyjama... DCI RW will have to do better next time. About the e-fits he'll have to do better too if he wants Smithman to appear in the official site. How does he dare to exhibit 2 antinomic images as belonging to the same man ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 19, 2013, 11:46:40 PM
Deleted double post
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 19, 2013, 11:48:32 PM
I reckon with a certain satisfaction that they didn't swallow the rotten pyjama... DCI RW will have to do better next time. About the e-fits he'll have to do better too if he wants Smithman to appear in the official site. How does he dare to exhibit 2 antinomic images as belonging to the same man ?
Oooh Anne, are you suggesting Team Mccann and SY not working together? Wash your mouth out
@)(++(*
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 19, 2013, 11:54:34 PM
1) The e-fits, created in conjunction with the Smith family, which DCI Andy Redwood described as being of 'vital importance' to the investigation - and which were suppressed for five years, under the threat of legal action, by the McCanns - have now been expunged from the site, after just 2 months. Replaced by a snowflake Christmas tree and a message from Kate, which informs us that everything is moving too fast for her!
2) The alleged sighting by Jane Tanner, which was summarily dismissed by DCI Redwood and his investigation team during the Crimewatch programme is still being promoted by the site, alongside a wholly inaccurate depiction of the man seen by the Smith family.
3) The Google Checkout button, used previously for donations, is still on the site, even though Google Checkout ceased to exist from 21 November 2013. As mentioned previously on this site, the new payment provider recommended by Google can integrate their payment system in an hour - in under half an hour for a competent website developer. Google gave 6 months notice of the change, so why has this issue still not been resolved?
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
Must admit one month offline for their shop and donate button is odd....in those circumstances...has someone told them soliciting donations and selling stuff is not quite kosher at the moment? because two police forces have an open invetigation? SO theydont need the money for private investigators or hotline numbers etc? How is that different to them having this a few weeks after Maddies disappearance whilst a police investigation was going on? how was it Ok then but not now ?
>@@(*&)
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 12:05:34 AM
I don't understand what possible benefit there can be from not showing these E-fits? I can't get my head around it at all.
I can and it's quite simple. The benefit of not displaying the efits yet still happily promoting Tannerman, Creepyman, Spottyman & Posh Spice is they don't really want Smithman to be found.
They already know with absolute certainty who Smithman really is & exactly what he was doing.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Cariad on December 20, 2013, 02:09:44 PM
I can and it's quite simple. The benefit of not displaying the efits yet still happily promoting Tannerman, Creepyman, Spottyman & Posh Spice is they don't really want Smithman to be found.
They already know with absolute certainty who Smithman really is & exactly what he was doing.
If that's true though, removing the pictures just looks dodgy. The Smithman e-fits are out there now, they'd have been better just leaving them up. People would take less interest in them then.
This is just drawing attention to them by there absence!
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2013, 02:15:33 PM
I can and it's quite simple. The benefit of not displaying the efits yet still happily promoting Tannerman, Creepyman, Spottyman & Posh Spice is they don't really want Smithman to be found.
They already know with absolute certainty who Smithman really is & exactly what he was doing.
Do you think SY have cottoned on yet or aren't they as smart as you
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 20, 2013, 02:15:58 PM
If that's true though, removing the pictures just looks dodgy. The Smithman e-fits are out there now, they'd have been better just leaving them up. People would take less interest in them then.
This is just drawing attention to them by there absence!
There is absoloutely nothing suspicious about their actions.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 20, 2013, 02:19:14 PM
Must admit one month offline for their shop and donate button is odd....in those circumstances...has someone told them soliciting donations and selling stuff is not quite kosher at the moment? because two police forces have an open invetigation? SO theydont need the money for private investigators or hotline numbers etc? How is that different to them having this a few weeks after Maddies disappearance whilst a police investigation was going on? how was it Ok then but not now ?
>@@(*&)
>@@(*&)
Its quite simple..they had no faith in the pj investigation but every faith in SY
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Jazzy on December 20, 2013, 02:47:48 PM
Perhaps none of these e-fits is autonomous, isolating one of the other could have dangerous consequences.
What do you mean exactly by isolation, Anne?
Personally I feel that the two recent efits are more likely to have created confusion in the public rather than anything else.
Have we ever seen a case where two entirely different looking efits of the same person have been presented side by side, and always published as a pair?
What is the logic to this?
Wouldn't it have been an idea to release the efits one at a time, the second one to be released after a few months if there was insufficient response from the first?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: John on December 20, 2013, 04:34:29 PM
Personally I feel that the two recent efits are more likely to have created confusion in the public rather than anything else.
Have we ever seen a case where two entirely different looking efits of the same person have been presented side by side, and always published as a pair?
What is the logic to this?
Wouldn't it have been an idea to release the efits one at a time, the second one to be released after a few months if there was insufficient response from the first?
My sentiments exactly SH. Those two e-fits are atrocious considering they are supposed to be the same person. It makes a mockery of the entire process. The fact that not a single effective lead came out of the BBC Crimewatch effort speaks volumes.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 20, 2013, 04:47:40 PM
Personally I feel that the two recent efits are more likely to have created confusion in the public rather than anything else.
Have we ever seen a case where two entirely different looking efits of the same person have been presented side by side, and always published as a pair?
What is the logic to this?
Wouldn't it have been an idea to release the efits one at a time, the second one to be released after a few months if there was insufficient response from the first?
Not necessarily... They were apparently different impressions of the same person, and no one knows whose impression may be more accurate. There doesn't appear to have been any CCTV to be able to double-check, so that's all there is to go on, presumably.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 20, 2013, 05:12:53 PM
Not necessarily... They were apparently different impressions of the same person, and no one knows whose impression may be more accurate. There doesn't appear to have been any CCTV to be able to double-check, so that's all there is to go on, presumably.
Well that's true, Carana, but you're looking at it from the angle of someone who is following the case very closely and has a lot of background information in mind when viewing the programme.
I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the average viewer, who will of course be very aware of the case but probably won't know a lot of detail. (I didn't pay very close attention to it until about 12 months ago. Before then, I had read only headlines. Only when I started reading more did I learn of the existence of so-called 'Smithman', for example, and other things that we on this site take for granted).
The fact that we and SY know the reason why two e-fits were composed - different impressions resulting from descriptions given by members of a group - does not make the interpretation or recognition of those images any easier for the public. They are being faced with visual information that is essentially quite contradictory.
If you are going to get a strong message across to the public it has to be done clearly and simply. In advertising for example, the message has to be strongly made and relatively simple. That is not to insult the audience, who have a sophisticated relationship with the media today. You can be sophisticated -with graphics; with a certain selling point or interesting angle that you are going to take. But you still have to be clear in your message, and, especially in a short bit, that normally means sticking to one point and elaborating on it, and leaving out the rest.
Perhaps SY thought they were doubling their chances of finding Smithman by releasing a 'double' image - but in effect they were just clouding people's minds. IMO.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 05:55:42 PM
Personally I feel that the two recent efits are more likely to have created confusion in the public rather than anything else.
Have we ever seen a case where two entirely different looking efits of the same person have been presented side by side, and always published as a pair?
What is the logic to this?
Wouldn't it have been an idea to release the efits one at a time, the second one to be released after a few months if there was insufficient response from the first?
By "isolated" I meant "not exhibited side by side". I find it hard to understand why DCI RW presented those e-fits without even explaining that they had been drawn according to two witnesses sighting the same person and illustrated how testimonies are relative data. I therefore agree that the way those e-fits were mentioned in CW was counterproductive. Why didn't DCI RW try to get new e-fits ? Martin Smith and his wife should be excluded because they could hardly abstract themselves from the feeling they had in sept 2007. But why not asking Aoife, Peter, possibly his wife and his wife's son ? I suppose that would imply a rogatory letter to the Irish justice authorities. What I suggested was that the McCanns might have concluded (or used as a pretext) it was better to publish no e-fit than two antinomic ones.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 05:59:29 PM
If 2 people made an e-fit of the same person then I'd imagine they would both be different but have obvious similarities such as hair length, colour, skin colour.
Once those 2 e-fits have been created then it would be logical to me to show the other witness to see if one is better than the other. If no agreement can be reached then not knowing which had the better likeness would force both e-fits to be released.
Hope that makes sense >@@(*&)
If there were 2 witnesses of the same scene, yes. But if there were 6 ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 06:05:41 PM
There doesn't appear to have been any CCTV to be able to double-check,
There has been better than what a CCTV could do in matter of shape of a chin in the darkness. Why not double checking with the Gerrylookalike description ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 06:09:05 PM
(I didn't pay very close attention to it until about 12 months ago. Before then, I had read only headlines. Only when I started reading more did I learn of the existence of so-called 'Smithman', for example, and other things that we on this site take for granted).
Very interesting information, SH ! If we suppose that not many people "started reading more"...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 06:11:17 PM
Well it's hard to articulate because the whole idea of the two pictures is so non-sensical.
I think what I was trying to say was that SY may have thought that in releasing two pictures to the public there was a greater chance of someone's memory being jogged. Different people see different aspects of a person, and there might be something in one of the pictures that would jog someone's memory. If only one picture had been selected by SY and released, and the second one happened to contain a better likeness to Smithman (or an element that a certain witness might recognised) then perhaps an opportunity for a certain witness coming forward would have been diminished.
I don't know if that makes sense. I'm just trying to think of a reason why SY did what they did - and I can't think of a good one. Certainly the decision they made here is plain confusing.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 20, 2013, 07:27:34 PM
If 2 people made an e-fit of the same person then I'd imagine they would both be different but have obvious similarities such as hair length, colour, skin colour.
Once those 2 e-fits have been created then it would be logical to me to show the other witness to see if one is better than the other. If no agreement can be reached then not knowing which had the better likeness would force both e-fits to be released.
Hope that makes sense >@@(*&)
Well that would explain why they were both published certainly.
But it doesn't alter the fact that for the viewing public the whole thing just looks odd.
When are we ever presented with pictures of a person with a different face in each case? It's just not something we see! We might see a face from different angles, or with different hair /make-up, or the image of a whole person wearing different clothes. These things alter the overall effect drastically. But to be presented with two different heads apparently belonging to the same body - it's surreal.
From the view of cognition and perception, it's something that's very hard for us - because we never see it in reality.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 20, 2013, 07:45:51 PM
By "isolated" I meant "not exhibited side by side". I find it hard to understand why DCI RW presented those e-fits without even explaining that they had been drawn according to two witnesses sighting the same person and illustrated how testimonies are relative data. I therefore agree that the way those e-fits were mentioned in CW was counterproductive. Why didn't DCI RW try to get new e-fits ? Martin Smith and his wife should be excluded because they could hardly abstract themselves from the feeling they had in sept 2007. But why not asking Aoife, Peter, possibly his wife and his wife's son ? I suppose that would imply a rogatory letter to the Irish justice authorities. What I suggested was that the McCanns might have concluded (or used as a pretext) it was better to publish no e-fit than two antinomic ones.
Very interesting points.
Regarding new e-fits, is this something that is done after a length of time? Would the family even remember how the person looked? A stranger walking quickly whom they only glimpsed for only a few seconds?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 08:01:59 PM
Regarding new e-fits, is this something that is done after a length of time? Would the family even remember how the person looked? A stranger walking quickly whom they only glimpsed for only a few seconds?
One thing is not being able to describe the face of someone you hardly saw in the dark and had no reason to recall, another perhaps is being able to eliminate faces.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 08:04:55 PM
We might see a face from different angles, or with different hair /make-up, or the image of a whole person wearing different clothes. These things alter the overall effect drastically. But to be presented with two different heads apparently belonging to the same body - it's surreal.
From the view of cognition and perception, it's something that's very hard for us - because we never see it in reality.
More than "very hard", in fact "surreal" is the right word !
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 08:10:54 PM
I'm just trying to think of a reason why SY did what they did - and I can't think of a good one.
Neither can I. Despair perhaps ? The trouble with those e-fits is the emptiness of the eyes and the lack of expression that you can't neglect because there's only a face. Then none of the Smith can have seen Smithman like this. They should have sketched Smithman's figure with the little girl on his shoulder. Then they could have corrected the sketch asking each member of the family his/her opinion.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 20, 2013, 08:21:47 PM
Regarding new e-fits, is this something that is done after a length of time? Would the family even remember how the person looked? A stranger walking quickly whom they only glimpsed for only a few seconds?
Apparently the efits were done about a year and a half after the events, c Sept 2008
Now to throw another spanner in the works, Carlos Anjos, I dont know his exact title, but he is or was head or spokesman of the policemans union, dont quote me on that though....suggested one of the faces was an age progression of the other...Andy Redwood never mentioned this in CW, so Im not sure if CA was speculating or not....but as with your example in the previous posts, an age progression would surely have similarities to the younger face, these two do look like two separate people....or the same person seen by different people who have come up with a different face....why does nothing much in this case make sense? Could it be too many chefs in the kitchen?
Anyway, here is a link to CAs tv interview and translation....around paragraph six or so
Neither can I. Despair perhaps ? The trouble with those e-fits is the emptiness of the eyes and the lack of expression that you can't neglect because there's only a face. Then none of the Smith can have seen Smithman like this. They should have sketched Smithman's figure with the little girl on his shoulder. Then they could have corrected the sketch asking each member of the family his/her opinion.
I agree. The overall picture is important when it comes to jogging the memory.
The face is vital of course, but form, stance, clothing, etc., are very important too. All things that could trigger recognition.
I'm not a big fan of mugshots because they're abstract. When do we ever see a floating head in reality?
These matters are basics in the psychology of perception. We assimilate things into our minds in context. And we normally only recover the memories of those things from the framework through which they were assimilated, especially with visual imagery. Methinks the Yard could have done with a few more advisors in this area.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 20, 2013, 08:28:17 PM
Apparently the efits were done about a year and a half after the events, c Sept 2008
Now to throw another spanner in the works, Carlos Anjos, I dont know his exact title, but he is or was head or spokesman of the policemans union, dont quote me on that though....suggested one of the faces was an age progression of the other...Andy Redwood never mentioned this in CW, so Im not sure if CA was speculating or not....but as with your example in the previous posts, an age progression would surely have similarities to the younger face, these two do look like two separate people....or the same person seen by different people who have come up with a different face....why does nothing much in this case make sense? Could it be too many chefs in the kitchen?
Anyway, here is a link to CAs tv interview and translation....around paragraph six or so
Well that's true, Carana, but you're looking at it from the angle of someone who is following the case very closely and has a lot of background information in mind when viewing the programme.
I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the average viewer, who will of course be very aware of the case but probably won't know a lot of detail. (I didn't pay very close attention to it until about 12 months ago. Before then, I had read only headlines. Only when I started reading more did I learn of the existence of so-called 'Smithman', for example, and other things that we on this site take for granted).
The fact that we and SY know the reason why two e-fits were composed - different impressions resulting from descriptions given by members of a group - does not make the interpretation or recognition of those images any easier for the public. They are being faced with visual information that is essentially quite contradictory.
If you are going to get a strong message across to the public it has to be done clearly and simply. In advertising for example, the message has to be strongly made and relatively simple. That is not to insult the audience, who have a sophisticated relationship with the media today. You can be sophisticated -with graphics; with a certain selling point or interesting angle that you are going to take. But you still have to be clear in your message, and, especially in a short bit, that normally means sticking to one point and elaborating on it, and leaving out the rest.
Perhaps SY thought they were doubling their chances of finding Smithman by releasing a 'double' image - but in effect they were just clouding people's minds. IMO.
There was an interesting comment by.... by... (her name escapes me for the moment, I'll add it when I find it Jacqui? From the police). From what I remember, she was saying that it would be unusual to present so many faces to the public, but that it was a special opportunity.
Personally, if I'd been there (or even not), that Crimewatch programme would have made me try to think back - again - in case there was something that I hadn't noticed or didn't seem relevant at the time. It might have been a situation, but it might also have been a face that I knew from elsewhere.
What if someone who wasn't in PdL at the time recognised one of those faces? Much of any incoming info will just be to eliminate potential people. If Smithman recognises himself and is just an innocent person carrying a child, then it would help to come forward. During the mega media frenzy and the police leaks, some people may have hesitated.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 09:14:16 PM
There was an interesting comment by.... by... (her name escapes me for the moment, I'll add it when I find it Jacqui? From the police). From what I remember, she was saying that it would be unusual to present so many faces to the public, but that it was a special opportunity.
Jacqui Hames ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 20, 2013, 09:20:25 PM
Apparently the efits were done about a year and a half after the events, c Sept 2008
Now to throw another spanner in the works, Carlos Anjos, I dont know his exact title, but he is or was head or spokesman of the policemans union, dont quote me on that though....suggested one of the faces was an age progression of the other...Andy Redwood never mentioned this in CW, so Im not sure if CA was speculating or not....but as with your example in the previous posts, an age progression would surely have similarities to the younger face, these two do look like two separate people....or the same person seen by different people who have come up with a different face....why does nothing much in this case make sense? Could it be too many chefs in the kitchen?
Anyway, here is a link to CAs tv interview and translation....around paragraph six or so
Fascinating Red. I'm going to look at the interview shortly.
If it is supposed be an age progression, it's not a very good one!
Only cranial surgery would change a person that much.
Oh that made me LOL!!! SH!
@)(++(*
I wonder whch is supposed to be the younger and older....probably the one with the big doey eyes....ones eyes dont grow with age, rather they shrink.....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 09:33:49 PM
I wonder whch is supposed to be the younger and older....probably the one with the big doey eyes....ones eyes dont grow with age, rather they shrink.....
They've the same age imo, i.e no age.. That's why esthetical surgery is a good idea..
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 20, 2013, 09:37:50 PM
They've the same age imo, i.e no age.. That's why esthetical surgery is a good idea..
It's surreal OK!
I've said in the past I have never come across any case where there were so many suspects and or efits involved...it must be fairly unprecedented.....as I said before, too many cooks in the kitchen!
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 20, 2013, 09:49:14 PM
Thanks. Anjos was going off UK tabloids seemingly. But Greater Manchester Police have 'categorically' denied any link between the arrest and Madeleine, saying it had 'nothing to do' with the continuing investigation into the youngster's whereabouts.
A GMP spokesman told the M.E.N.: “I can categorically say that no one has been arrested as part of the Madeleine McCann investigation.
“It has nothing to do with Madeleine McCann, that's all I can say.”
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 20, 2013, 09:51:02 PM
It could also be down to the quality of the technology used to create the e-fits? If the technology was inadequate with not enough choice to get it exactly right then all the witnesses are left with is next best.
In this instance I would hope the witness would speak up and voice their concern regarding the lack of similarity? Perhaps they did but the creators have gone ahead with releasing the e-fits simply because they are clutching at straws?
Marshall McLuhan might have had some of the answers. We might be missing the point of why they did Crimewatch.
Did anyone believe 9.15 man was an abductor anyway? All they really did was swap one doubtful sighting for another.
Most of the audience would be unaware the 10pm sighting had almost completely been ignored previously.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 09:53:06 PM
I've said in the past I have never come across any case where there were so many suspects and or efits involved...it must be fairly unprecedented.....as I said before, too many cooks in the kitchen!
Exactly. But not by chance.. Have you ever come across a case with so many dead suspects ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 20, 2013, 09:54:11 PM
Thanks. Anjos was going off UK tabloids seemingly. But Greater Manchester Police have 'categorically' denied any link between the arrest and Madeleine, saying it had 'nothing to do' with the continuing investigation into the youngster's whereabouts.
A GMP spokesman told the M.E.N.: “I can categorically say that no one has been arrested as part of the Madeleine McCann investigation.
“It has nothing to do with Madeleine McCann, that's all I can say.”
Yes, he said what the police stated, this detainment had nothing to do with the Maddie case.....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 20, 2013, 09:55:55 PM
Marshall McLuhan might have had some of the answers. We might be missing the point of why they did Crimewatch.
Did anyone believe 9.15 man was an abductor anyway? All they really did was swap one doubtful sighting for another.
Most of the audience would be unaware the 10pm sighting had almost completely been ignored previously.
Do you mean why they invented CW or why they did that special CW ? People must have been a bit confused when they discovered there was another abductor since Smithman had only appeared in the "reconsdocumentary" as a confirmation of Tannerman.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 10:01:31 PM
Do you mean why they invented CW or why they did that special CW ? People must have been a bit confused when they discovered there was another abductor since Smithman had only appeared in the "reconsdocumentary" as a confirmation of Tannerman.
I just mean the special. People were confused after they watched it but a huge audience got the message the police still say they think she may be alive, and that's the main reason they did it I think. It was just PR.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 10:09:36 PM
I just mean the special. People were confused after they watched it but a huge audience got the message the police still say they think she may be alive, and that's the main reason they did it I think. It was just PR.
If you're right, Lyall, then the issue is more serious than what I thought.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 20, 2013, 10:26:59 PM
I just mean the special. People were confused after they watched it but a huge audience got the message the police still say they think she may be alive, and that's the main reason they did it I think. It was just PR.
I didn't get the impression from CW that she may be alive, in fact, I never got the impression that SY thought she was alive.....even if Redwood paid lip service to theconcept early on....there has been no urgency at all.....nearly three yrs later and??? Talking about Pyjamas and a dozen efits splattered on a CW board
Edited for spello
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 10:50:36 PM
I didn't get the impression from CW that she may be alive, in fact, I never got the impression that SY thought she was alive.....even if Redwood paid lip service to theconcept early on....there has been no urgency at all.....nearly three yrs later and??? Talking about Pyjamas and a dozen edits splattered on a CW board
That's fishy.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 10:52:12 PM
There seemed to be no urgency years before SY got involved too........remember Edgar and Cowley chasing after Hewlett, they got a call saying they had permission to speak to him after all but said they were on their way to catch their plane home....
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 20, 2013, 11:05:48 PM
I didn't get the impression from CW that she may be alive, in fact, I never got the impression that SY thought she was alive.....even if Redwood paid lip service to theconcept early on....there has been no urgency at all.....nearly three yrs later and??? Talking about Pyjamas and a dozen edits splattered on a CW board
He might not think it personally but has to keep saying the Met think she might still be alive because nobody can prove otherwise?
GM keeps saying "nobody can be allowed to say she's dead" or they'll face legal action (if they're important enough), and no doubt that includes the police.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 20, 2013, 11:07:28 PM
He might not think it personally but has to keep saying the Met think she might still be alive because nobody can prove otherwise?
GM keeps saying "nobody can be allowed to say she's dead" or they'll face legal action (if they're important enough), and no doubt that includes the police.
You seriously thnk the Mccanns would try and sue the Met??
@)(++(*
I'd like to see them try....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 11:25:13 PM
There seemed to be no urgency years before SY got involved too........remember Edgar and Cowley chasing after Hewlett, they got a call saying they had permission to speak to him after all but said they were on their way to catch their plane home....
Oh yes, I remember this now, I was puzzled.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 20, 2013, 11:25:55 PM
because the PM said so, I'd rather think. And why did he say so ? Because Rebekah B. put him under pressure and claimed it had to be so.
That too 8)-))) But it was the other party leaders too and not one voice of caution was heard. It's easy as pie to get into these things,but how do you get out of it?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 20, 2013, 11:49:51 PM
That too 8)-))) But it was the other party leaders too and not one voice of caution was heard. It's easy as pie to get into these things,but how do you get out of it?
You don't ! Quicksand..
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 21, 2013, 12:00:55 AM
The absence of the e-fits is incredible. More than ever one has to question the sincerity of the entire enterprise.
Can anyone give a reliable answer as to when the efits were made. According to a report that was briefly on here Mr Smith refused to help make an efit when visited by Kennedy in jan 2008...so when were they made?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: faithlilly on December 21, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
It's not their Facebook page we are talking about but the official campaign website, the first port of call for anyone interested in the search you would have thought.
It's the breathtaking arrogance of Kate that astounds me. How can see possibly think that her emotion-free, self serving piece of twaddle is more important than publicising the individual who SY suspect may have taken her child ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 21, 2013, 11:51:31 AM
Can anyone give a reliable answer as to when the efits were made. According to a report that was briefly on here Mr Smith refused to help make an efit when visited by Kennedy in jan 2008...so when were they made?
This thread is not about when they were made, there are two other threads on that discussion...the Exton thread and the orignal efits hidden for five years thread...both of which you have participated in at great length.....but to satisfy your curiosity, in case you forgot, yes, according to the police files Mr Smith refused to do efits in early 2008
Doesn't matter when they were made the fact is SY thought them of interest yet findmadeleine.com doesn't have them. All very strange.
"It was passed to the Portuguese police at the time and for whatever reason they decided to nothing whatsoever with it," said one source close to the McCann investigation. "It was then handed to the Met two years ago, and they have now deemed it worthy of publication, but frankly it should have been out there a long time ago."
This is what the telegraph says
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 21, 2013, 01:48:57 PM
It's not their Facebook page we are talking about but the official campaign website, the first port of call for anyone interested in the search you would have thought.
It's the breathtaking arrogance of Kate that astounds me. How can see possibly think that her emotion-free, self serving piece of twaddle is more important than publicising the individual who SY suspect may have taken her child ?
She's in a overhanging position now, as an ambassador for missing people. It's SY's privilege to be in charge of Madeleine.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2013, 05:21:35 PM
the efits were not supressed according to the mccanns...they were given to the pj who did nothing with them
Surely that was said by an unnamed source 'close to the McCanns, not by them personally.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Angelo222 on December 21, 2013, 06:19:17 PM
The McCanns idea of searching is to do an interview or go on TV for yet another sanctimonious cringe session. They have never physically searched for Madeleine on the ground in Portugal or anywhere else. Kerry Needham could teach them a few things.
As for that website, words fail me!!
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2013, 06:29:05 PM
The McCanns idea of searching is to do an interview or go on TV for yet another sanctimonious cringe session. They have never physically searched for Madeleine on the ground in Portugal or anywhere else. Kerry Needham could teach them a few things.
As for that website, words fail me!!
the McCanns searched on the night Maddie went missing...Kerry Needham is now hoping to renew the search for Ben on the back of all the work done by the MccANNS. Kerry Needham has a lot to thank the MCcanns for
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Moderator on December 21, 2013, 06:36:39 PM
Can anyone give a reliable answer as to when the efits were made. According to a report that was briefly on here Mr Smith refused to help make an efit when visited by Kennedy in jan 2008...so when were they made?
Oakley run by Kevin Halligen were engaged in March 2008 and sacked in September 2008 so the e-fits were created during that period.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 21, 2013, 06:39:59 PM
If only the McCanns can answer the question then whats the point of asking the question on this forum
That's quite a good point
I suppose if the McCanns were more open and transparent there would be much less speculation on the case
I have often wondered why they don't simply address the issues they are clearly aware are being speculated about ... they have frequently bemoaned how harmful they feel speculation is , afterall
Yet they stay silent and offer no explanations that would end it
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: slartibartfast on December 21, 2013, 07:18:41 PM
I suppose if the McCanns were more open and transparent there would be much less speculation on the case
I have often wondered why they don't simply address the issues they are clearly aware are being speculated about ... they have frequently bemoaned how harmful they feel speculation is , afterall
Yet they stay silent and offer no explanations that would end it
Very very true.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 21, 2013, 07:19:23 PM
I suppose if the McCanns were more open and transparent there would be much less speculation on the case
Interesting statement.
The McCanns ccould scarcely have been more open and transparent about drugs.
Look where that got them.
Accused of sedating the children.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 21, 2013, 07:29:19 PM
But if they accused anyone (named) of drugging the children, I must have missed that ...
Get off your high horses, I said "unidentified" !
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 21, 2013, 07:40:13 PM
The proposition was that if the McCanns were more open and transparent, there would be fewer questions.
They were open and transparent about Madeleine crying and the witness in closest proximity to apartment 5a, interviewed months after th e crime (an askew sense of priorities), ostensibly about a crime of which she, herself, was a victim, (apparently) churns out sorts of stuff about Madeleine crying for hours.
The original proposition was that if the McCanns had been more open and transparent, there would be less suspicion.
I struggle to see the evidence that supports the proposition ...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 21, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
Do you agree there has been a reputation management campaign spreading over many years, ferryman?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 21, 2013, 07:50:53 PM
I suppose if the McCanns were more open and transparent there would be much less speculation on the case
I have often wondered why they don't simply address the issues they are clearly aware are being speculated about ... they have frequently bemoaned how harmful they feel speculation is , afterall
Yet they stay silent and offer no explanations that would end it
Surely the only people the McCanns have to answer to, and be transparent to, are the Police in Portugal & the UK. It always amazes me why people on the internet think that they have the right to demand answers.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 21, 2013, 07:55:06 PM
I thought you'd deny its existence, even though some of the people involved spoke about it in 2007 and some won industry awards for it.
It's possible the reason or part of the reason why the 10pm sighting efits were never used is because that would have been detrimental to their reputation management, but if you don't even recognise there were two campaigns being run simultaneously then naturally you won't agree with that proposition.
But there were two campaigns and I think at times the aims of one conflicted with the other.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: LagosBen on December 21, 2013, 08:04:56 PM
Do you think people on Forums should be afforded all details?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 21, 2013, 08:08:00 PM
"The appalling loss of our daughter has been too much to bear. Everything else, however huge, has had to take second place. There is only so much pain human beings can stand at once. It doesn’t mean the injustices hurt any less. On the whole Gerry and I have managed to dig deep and remain focused, although the temptation to shout the truth from the rooftops has always been there. There have been many times when I have struggled to keep myself together and to understand how such injustices have been allowed to go unchallenged over and over again. I have had to keep saying to myself: I know the truth, we know the truth and God knows the truth. And one day, the truth will out."
Amen.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: LagosBen on December 21, 2013, 08:09:24 PM
8@??)(.....And the detractors who have hounded this family will slink away.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pinkblossoms on December 21, 2013, 09:50:07 PM
Hmm what happened to the peter verran thread >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 21, 2013, 10:06:28 PM
Do you think people on Forums should be afforded all details?
No, but the act of fooling people revolts me. The motive is essential. The McCann have one, the people we elect democratically don't. The answering questions "must" made me laugh.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Angelo222 on December 21, 2013, 10:16:11 PM
I suppose if the McCanns were more open and transparent there would be much less speculation on the case
I have often wondered why they don't simply address the issues they are clearly aware are being speculated about ... they have frequently bemoaned how harmful they feel speculation is , afterall
Yet they stay silent and offer no explanations that would end it
That may be true in essence, but in reality when a person tries to clarify something on a sensitive and complicated topic, it normally opens up even more questions.
If the McCanns explained their logic behind the decisions to do with the e-fits, wouldn't there be a dozen new threads here in an instant?
These things are never ending.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 22, 2013, 02:26:34 AM
There's nothing mysterious about this case. It's quite simple, a young innocent beautiful child tragically died and her death was covered up. The dogs discovered this whatever anyone claims to the contrary. And people have been played as fools/pawns which is quite easy to do. The hard part about this case is where they hid the body and the church would be my first suspicion or that guy who gave them the keys - what was his name oh yeah John Geraghty. He needs to be questioned. Where's his statement? The Renault car was stored at his house for Christ's sake.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: colombosstogey on December 22, 2013, 06:25:51 AM
The motive is essential. The McCann have one, the people we elect democratically don't. The answering questions "must" made me laugh.
On the subject of 'fooling people' which you raise Anne - no-one reading Amaral's book would have the slightest clue from from a single word in that book - that he had never met or spoken to the McCanns in his life - in fact quite the opposite impression is encouraged from beginning to end.
A perfect example of deliberately 'fooling people' IMO.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 10:24:21 AM
On the subject of 'fooling people' which you raise Anne - no-one reading Amaral's book would have the slightest clue from from a single word in that book - that he had never met or spoken to the McCanns in his life - in fact quite the opposite impression is encouraged from beginning to end.
A perfect example of deliberately 'fooling people' IMO.
It is.
A much more serious example is the way that Amaral misrepresented the role of Mark Harrison in the investigation.
And why did Amaral lie that "no one talked about murder"?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 11:03:25 AM
That may be true in essence, but in reality when a person tries to clarify something on a sensitive and complicated topic, it normally opens up even more questions.
If the McCanns explained their logic behind the decisions to do with the e-fits, wouldn't there be a dozen new threads here in an instant?
These things are never ending.
What possible logical reason could there be in not displaying efits of the man suspected of 'abducting' your precious child, the child you have encouraged the rest of the world to look for, pray for, remember & don't forget about?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 22, 2013, 11:38:48 AM
What possible logical reason could there be in not displaying efits of the man suspected of 'abducting' your precious child, the child you have encouraged the rest of the world to look for, pray for, remember & don't forget about?
because they are being displayed by SY . The McCannns don't owe you or anyone else an explanation
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 11:49:11 AM
because they are being displayed by SY . The McCannns don't owe you or anyone else an explanation
Oh I see they've got you to answer for them instead. Lucky them & us.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 11:51:49 AM
We know that the e-fit was not produced until after the end of January 2008 because Mr Smith said in his statement of that date that he had not participated in the production of any e-fit.
If it was produced after August 4th 2008, there was no official investigation, and therefore no context for the release of an e-fit of someone carrying an child in close proximity to apartment 5a, at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted.
Then the Portuguese re-opened the investigation and there was a proper context for release of the efit.
The e-fit was duly released.
E-fits in the possession of police for years before the crimewatch programme
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 12:01:07 PM
We know that the e-fit was not produced until after the end of January 2008 because Mr Smith said in his statement of that date that he had not participated in the production of any e-fit.
If it was produced after August 4th 2008, there was no official investigation, and therefore no context for the release of an e-fit of someone carrying an child in close proximity to apartment 5a, at just about the time Madeleine is known to have been abducted.
Then the Portuguese re-opened the investigation and there was a proper context for release of the efit.
The e-fit was duly released.
E-fits in the possession of police for years before the crimewatch programme
But it was fine to release pictures of creepyman because he wasn't near the apartment.
Of course it all makes sense now.
Praise be to God that your here ferryman, you really are an asset to the McCanns.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 12:06:48 PM
There's nothing mysterious about this case. It's quite simple, a young innocent beautiful child tragically died and her death was covered up. The dogs discovered this whatever anyone claims to the contrary. And people have been played as fools/pawns which is quite easy to do. The hard part about this case is where they hid the body and the church would be my first suspicion or that guy who gave them the keys - what was his name oh yeah John Geraghty. He needs to be questioned. Where's his statement? The Renault car was stored at his house for Christ's sake.
--edited out inappropriate comment --
Kate & Gerry had nothing to do with it. They said so & so does Clarence Mitchell & that should be sufficient proof. If you continue to poor scorn on the McCanns you are running the risk of being branded a child sex offender by those loving compassionate members of the McCann support group.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 12:24:26 PM
The e-fit produced from Jane Tanner's sighting was produced while there was live, on-going police enquiry.
The Smith e-fit was in the possession of police for years before the crimewatch programme.
I would think I've nailed the reason why the police did not release the Smith e-fit before now.
Creepyman. Not Tannerman. I can understand the confusion because there really was an abundance of creepy looking perverts lurking in the vicinity of the Ocean Club around the time. It was like some kind of creepy perverts annual general meeting had coincided with the McCanns holiday plans. Tragic.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 12:53:10 PM
The 'Victoria Beckham' Lookalike Suspect.
Press Conference 06 August 2009.
Produced & displayed while there was NO live, on-going police enquiry.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 02:22:03 PM
Spottyman.
6th May 2009.
Produced & displayed while there was NO live, on-going police enquiry.
The creepy crater faced man was awarded a 'spot' on Channel 4 Cutting Edge documentary 'Madeleine Was Here' aswell as coverage in all the major tabloids.
Then around the 21st May 2009 Spottyman's boil burst & Raymond Hewlitt had stolen both his thunder & Madeleine.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 02:34:37 PM
You forgot Toothyman.. I always wonder what kind of "artist" had the courage to produce such grotesque sketches pretending to be e-fits.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 02:38:32 PM
What possible logical reason could there be in not displaying efits of the man suspected of 'abducting' your precious child, the child you have encouraged the rest of the world to look for, pray for, remember & don't forget about?
There may or may not have been a good reason.
But my post was in relation to Icabod's suggestion that the McCanns could have been clearer to us as to their intentions with regard to the e-fit saga.
So let's say the McCanns came forward and gave their account.
Would that satisfy everyone? Would we all accept their explanation?
An answer in a case like this usually just gives rise to another set of questions, so what would be the point?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 03:13:44 PM
But my post was in relation to Icabod's suggestion that the McCanns could have been clearer to us as to their intentions with regard to the e-fit saga.
So let's say the McCanns came forward and gave their account.
Would that satisfy everyone? Would we all accept their explanation?
An answer in a case like this usually just gives rise to another set of questions, so what would be the point?
It's very difficult to see what possible legitimate reason they could give other than 'It was Gerry & that's why we hid them'.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 22, 2013, 03:16:09 PM
Kate & Gerry had nothing to do with it. They said so & so does Clarence Mitchell & that should be sufficient proof. If you continue to poor scorn on the McCanns you are running the risk of being branded a child sex offender by those loving compassionate members of the McCann support group.
Sometimes you need to ruffle a few feathers to get to the truth. Kate believes that Tannerman and Smithman are the same man.
"The police did not appear to feel that Jane’s sighting in Rua Dr Agostinho da Silva and the man and child reported by the Irish holidaymakers in Rua da Escola Primária were related. They seem to have concluded that these were in all likelihood two different men carrying two different children (if, they implied, these two men actually existed at all). The only reason for their scepticism appeared to be an unexplained time lapse between the two sightings. They didn’t dovetail perfectly. To me the similarities seem far more significant than any discrepancy in timing. Every time I read these independent statements in the files (and neither could have been influenced by the other, remember – Jane’s description had not been released to the public before the Irish witnesses made their statements), I am staggered by how alike they are, almost identical in parts[/b]. As a lawyer once said to me, apropos another matter, ‘One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence.’ (Ask the dogs Sandra) Who knows why there was a forty-five-minute gap between the two sightings, or where this man might have been in between? I long ago stopped trying to come up with answers because I don’t think I need to. If the child was Madeleine – and in four years, no father has ever come forward to say it was him and his daughter – why would we assume he would be behaving normally or logically? There is nothing normal about stealing a little girl from her bed, so why should his subsequent actions be predictable? The abductor would hardly have been expecting to see Jane walking towards him as he escaped, let alone have anticipated that Gerry would be standing talking round the corner. Whatever plan was in his mind, he might well have been forced by these near misses to change it pretty quickly."
The father has come forward since the book but it hasn't changed anything in regards to Tannerman. You would think Smithman would be their top priority now but alas it's not to be.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 22, 2013, 03:18:01 PM
has it occurred to you that if it was Gerry...why would they hire investigators to get the efit drawn up in the first place...theres no logical reason
I wasn't aware they hired the investigators 'specificly' to draw up efits of Smithman.
I was under the assumption they hired them to investigate.
If those investigators did happen to consider Tanners account useless (like anyone with half a braincell) & Smithman the strongest lead then that explains why efits were made. And why, after they were made they were shut away in a private investigators file for 5 years.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: icabodcrane on December 22, 2013, 03:36:45 PM
But my post was in relation to Icabod's suggestion that the McCanns could have been clearer to us as to their intentions with regard to the e-fit saga.
So let's say the McCanns came forward and gave their account.
Would that satisfy everyone? Would we all accept their explanation?
An answer in a case like this usually just gives rise to another set of questions, so what would be the point?
The point I made was that the McCanns have, since the very begining, spoken out about how damaging speculation is
They must be aware, though, that some of their own actions, with no explanation offered, are bound to provoke the very speculation they profess to abhor
You suggest that even if they were to be accountable for their decisions and actions it would only serve to engender further questions
I disagree
Were the McCanns to give clear, exact, and unequivical responses to the questions they know are being asked, then it would almost certainly put an end to wild speculation
Coming back to the point in hand ... that of the McCanns removing the e fits of the man the Smith family saw from their official website ... you allude to there having, possibly, been a 'good reason' for them doing so
Come then Sherlock, speculate with us on what that 'good reason' may have been
Afterall, by offering no explanation or reason themselves, the McCanns have virtually invited us to do so
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 22, 2013, 04:07:24 PM
On the subject of 'fooling people' which you raise Anne - no-one reading Amaral's book would have the slightest clue from from a single word in that book - that he had never met or spoken to the McCanns in his life - in fact quite the opposite impression is encouraged from beginning to end.
A perfect example of deliberately 'fooling people' IMO.
What has whether they ever met got to do with anything?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 22, 2013, 04:21:14 PM
The point I made was that the McCanns have, since the very begining, spoken out about how damaging speculation is
They must be aware, though, that some of their own actions, with no explanation offered, are bound to provoke the very speculation they profess to abhor
You suggest that even if they were to be accountable for their decisions and actions it would only serve to engender further questions
I disagree
Were the McCanns to give clear, exact, and unequivical responses to the questions they know are being asked, then it would almost certainly put an end to wild speculation
Coming back to the point in hand ... that of the McCanns removing the e fits of the man the Smith family saw from their official website ... you allude to there having, possibly, been a 'good reason' for them doing so
Come then Sherlock, speculate with us on what that 'good reason' may have been
Afterall, by offering no explanation or reason themselves, the McCanns have virtually invited us to do so
I was actually referring in that post to the situation from the start - why the e-fits were not released in the fist place. And the whole ensuing saga.
But as to why the Smithman mugshots have been removed from the Madeleine website - and thanks for keeping things on topic! - I personally have no idea whatsoever. It seems on the face of it like a blatant contradiction of SY and is therefore quite hard to fathom.
Should the McCanns publicly address that question? Perhaps, morally, they should. An enormous amount of money was spent on that Crimewatch episode, and our (the public's) help was sought in coming forward with information . To do something which appears to contradict the programme's main thrust would seem to demand an explanation - and leaves us with a lot to figure out for ourselves, I agree.
The reality is however that if the Mc Canns were to give another interview explaining matters, or post something on their website, it would never be the kind of explanation that we would find in any way satisfying. We would pick that post to bits.
It does look on the face of it that there are difficulties with the Smithman line of inquiry, and these are probably not the kind of things that are easy to explain.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 04:26:07 PM
has it occurred to you that if it was Gerry...why would they hire investigators to get the efit drawn up in the first place...theres no logical reason
I've already posted on this topic.... The Smith family (three of them) went back to PdL in May 2007. Why didn't the PJ organise an e-fit, or a police artist's drawing way back then?
One reason might be that the PJ didn't have the resources to do so... but then, why didn't they request help from the UK police / Gardai back then?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 04:34:04 PM
The point I made was that the McCanns have, since the very begining, spoken out about how damaging speculation is
They must be aware, though, that some of their own actions, with no explanation offered, are bound to provoke the very speculation they profess to abhor
You suggest that even if they were to be accountable for their decisions and actions it would only serve to engender further questions
I disagree
Were the McCanns to give clear, exact, and unequivical responses to the questions they know are being asked, then it would almost certainly put an end to wild speculation
Coming back to the point in hand ... that of the McCanns removing the e fits of the man the Smith family saw from their official website ... you allude to there having, possibly, been a 'good reason' for them doing so
Come then Sherlock, speculate with us on what that 'good reason' may have been
Afterall, by offering no explanation or reason themselves, the McCanns have virtually invited us to do so
They have obviously encountered some technical difficulties when trying to display the efits within the main body of their website during the past 2 months.
But it's ok, because they managed to post a christmas message, so there is hope they might be able to resolve the technical issue in the near future.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 04:36:01 PM
They have obviously encountered some technical difficulties when trying to display the efits within the main body of their website during the past 2 months.
But it's ok, because they managed to post a christmas message, so there is hope they might be able to resolve the technical issue in the near future.
Your quick-wittedness cannot be faulted, Wonderfulspam.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 04:43:41 PM
I wasn't aware they hired the investigators 'specificly' to draw up efits of Smithman.
I was under the assumption they hired them to investigate.
If those investigators did happen to consider Tanners account useless (like anyone with half a braincell) & Smithman the strongest lead then that explains why efits were made. And why, after they were made they were shut away in a private investigators file for 5 years.
That is your opinion. There still is no proof that Jane Tanners sighting was incorrect in any way.
Has anyone taken the time to wonder if SY have changed their minds about this man who we understand carried his child back from the Creche that way. Maybe new evidence?
.... moderated ....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 04:54:12 PM
On the subject of 'fooling people' which you raise Anne - no-one reading Amaral's book would have the slightest clue from from a single word in that book - that he had never met or spoken to the McCanns in his life - in fact quite the opposite impression is encouraged from beginning to end.
A perfect example of deliberately 'fooling people' IMO.
Was it your feeling when you read the book, Benice, that GA had met the McCanns or was it not, thanks of informations that he did not ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 05:01:38 PM
That is your opinion. There still is no proof that Jane Tanners sighting was incorrect in any way.
Has anyone taken the time to wonder if SY have changed their minds about this man who we understand carried his child back from the Creche that way. Maybe new evidence? .... moderated ...
If Tannerman was the abductor then he had to be hiding in the apartment when Gerry did his check and then left by way of the front door at 9.10pm. The same time that Jane leaves the tapas bar and walks up the road and spots him. He wouldn't have time to abduct Madeleine unless it happened that way. But that doesn't explain the Smithman sighting 45 minutes later or the open window. If this was a case of a pre-planned abduction then it must be the worst plan ever! You don't go walking the streets with an abducted child in your arms. That is a last resort and probably the only solution to a disaster that has happened!
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 05:17:17 PM
I've already posted on this topic.... The Smith family (three of them) went back to PdL in May 2007. Why didn't the PJ organise an e-fit, or a police artist's drawing way back then?
One reason might be that the PJ didn't have the resources to do so... but then, why didn't they request help from the UK police / Gardai back then?
Why asking questions that nobody here can answer ? What are you insinuating with "resources" that the PJ "might not have" ? Are you speculating that there are no "artists" in Portugal capable to draw faceless or toothy or spotty guys ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: slartibartfast on December 22, 2013, 05:42:11 PM
The point I made was that the McCanns have, since the very begining, spoken out about how damaging speculation is
They must be aware, though, that some of their own actions, with no explanation offered, are bound to provoke the very speculation they profess to abhor
You suggest that even if they were to be accountable for their decisions and actions it would only serve to engender further questions
I disagree
Were the McCanns to give clear, exact, and unequivical responses to the questions they know are being asked, then it would almost certainly put an end to wild speculation
Coming back to the point in hand ... that of the McCanns removing the e fits of the man the Smith family saw from their official website ... you allude to there having, possibly, been a 'good reason' for them doing so
Come then Sherlock, speculate with us on what that 'good reason' may have been
Afterall, by offering no explanation or reason themselves, the McCanns have virtually invited us to do so
It would help those of us who struggle to see why they are not more open and why they need the services of various professional organisations.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Anna on December 22, 2013, 05:44:58 PM
I've already posted on this topic.... The Smith family (three of them) went back to PdL in May 2007. Why didn't the PJ organise an e-fit, or a police artist's drawing way back then?
One reason might be that the PJ didn't have the resources to do so... but then, why didn't they request help from the UK police / Gardai back then?
Did they go back in may, after they had called the police in Ireland ? I only have basic information on this case. It is indeed strange, as to why no e fit was done at that time, if they travelled there to, I assume give evidence of their sighting to the police there.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 05:48:42 PM
I wasn't aware they hired the investigators 'specificly' to draw up efits of Smithman.
I was under the assumption they hired them to investigate.
If those investigators did happen to consider Tanners account useless (like anyone with half a braincell) & Smithman the strongest lead then that explains why efits were made. And why, after they were made they were shut away in a private investigators file for 5 years.
Brian (double glass) Kennedy paid a substantial part of the PIs' fees and he paid in order to find Madeleine. He was crooked by Metodo 3, I guess he was watching closely Halligen who, to get the job, first recruited qualified people. Those had no reason to investigate selectively.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 05:52:51 PM
Why asking questions that nobody here can answer ? What are you insinuating with "resources" that the PJ "might not have" ? Are you speculating that there are no "artists" in Portugal capable to draw faceless or toothy or spotty guys ?
Did they back then?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 05:59:22 PM
Why asking questions that nobody here can answer ? What are you insinuating with "resources" that the PJ "might not have" ? Are you speculating that there are no "artists" in Portugal capable to draw faceless or toothy or spotty guys ?
How many artists' drawings or e-fits did the PJ release to the public that they had made themselves?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:00:17 PM
Did they go back in may, after they had called the police in Ireland ? I only have basic information on this case. It is indeed strange, as to why no e fit was done at that time, if they travelled there to, I assume give evidence of their sighting to the police there.
They first alerted the PJ by phone (there's nothing about that call in the files, which gives an idea of the importance the PO who answered the phone gave to it ; but also you have to imagine the dozen of sightings that were daily drowning the PJ). The PJ sent Martin Smith to the Gardai where he testified and The Gardai alerted the LC which in turn alerted the PJ. By then Robert M had been made an arguido (on the 15th), but evidence was missing. I think that the Smith were mainly called to PDL in the hope that they would identify Robert M.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 22, 2013, 06:03:22 PM
How many artists' drawings or e-fits did the PJ release to the public that they had made themselves?
That's not their modus operandi is it? And you can perhaps see why - they didn't want to release the information about the 9.15 'sighting' did they, and look what confusion that caused.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 06:05:41 PM
That's not their modus operandi is it? And you can perhaps see why - they didn't want to release the information about the 9.15 'sighting' did they, and look what confusion that caused.
It may not be.
I was just trying to think about AnneG's earlier post: Why asking questions that nobody here can answer ? What are you insinuating with "resources" that the PJ "might not have" ? Are you speculating that there are no "artists" in Portugal capable to draw faceless or toothy or spotty guys ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 06:12:14 PM
Is it a mega issue when I ask fairly simple questions to which no one has an answer?
If so, why?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Anna on December 22, 2013, 06:13:52 PM
They first alerted the PJ by phone (there's nothing about that call in the files, which gives an idea of the importance the PO who answered the phone gave to it ; but also you have to imagine the dozen of sightings that were daily drowning the PJ). The PJ sent Martin Smith to the Gardai where he testified and The Gardai alerted the LC which in turn alerted the PJ. By then Robert M had been made an arguido (on the 15th), but evidence was missing. I think that the Smith were mainly called to PDL in the hope that they would identify Robert M.
Martin Smith already knew R Murat, so he surely knew it was not he
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 22, 2013, 06:14:05 PM
I was just trying to think about your earlier post: Why asking questions that nobody here can answer ? What are you insinuating with "resources" that the PJ "might not have" ? Are you speculating that there are no "artists" in Portugal capable to draw faceless or toothy or spotty guys ?
That was Anne 8)-))) But I'm sure she means of course the PJ can do it if/when they think there is need to.
Production of efits and releasing them is controversial not only in Portugal. Hamish Campbell will remember well that the Met released a completely useless one early in the Dando investigation, and then for some reason didn't bother to produce one from the statements of the two witnesses who almost certainly saw the murderer.
Big, high-profile investigations are tricky in any country.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 06:16:22 PM
That was Anne 8)-))) But I'm sure she means of course the PJ can do it if/when they think there is need to.
Production of efits and releasing them is controversial not only in Portugal. Hamish Campbell will remember well that the Met released a completely useless one early in the Dando investigation, and then for some reason didn't bother to produce one from the statements of the two witnesses who almost certainly saw the murderer.
Big, high-profile investigations are tricky in any country.
Yes, Soz, Lyall, I was in fact replying to AnneG, not you.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 06:16:48 PM
That was Anne 8)-))) But I'm sure she means of course the PJ can do it if/when they think there is need to.
Production of efits and releasing them is controversial not only in Portugal. Hamish Campbell will remember well that the Met released a completely useless one early in the Dando investigation, and then for some reason didn't bother to produce one from the statements of the two witnesses who almost certainly saw the murderer.
Big, high-profile investigations are tricky in any country.
Why complicate it?
The PJ don't produce e-fits because their secrecy laws preclude such things ...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:17:17 PM
Martin Smith already knew R Murat, so he surely knew it was not he
At the end of the interview and as he hadn't identified Smithman, Martin Smith was asked if he knew Robert M. He said he had already seen him and that he wasn't Smithman.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 22, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
The PJ don't produce e-fits because their secrecy laws preclude such things ...
But some people keep saying that publicising details of a missing person is illegal or detrimental in Portugal.
I agree that e-fits of a suspect are not the same thing as the details of a missing person, but some seem to insist that details of a missing person should not be divulged either... How on earth would the PJ be expected to help find them?
I find that incomprehensible.
The PJ website gives details about missing people, including any distinguishing features. (It might be useful if they updated the site... but, anyway.)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:27:08 PM
But some people keep saying that publicising details of a missing person is illegal or detrimental in Portugal.
I agree that e-fits of a suspect are not the same thing as the details of a missing person, but some seem to insist that details of a missing person should not be divulged either... How on earth would the PJ be expected to help find them?
I find that incomprehensible.
The PJ website gives details about missing people, including any distinguishing features. (It might be useful if they updated the site... but, anyway.)
It's also to do with managing an investigation so it isn't overloaded with information.
I read or heard in a documentary recently re: the Soham case a policeman say that sometimes asking the public for help can do more harm than good - too many false sightings wasting police resources etc.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:31:29 PM
But some people keep saying that publicising details of a missing person is illegal or detrimental in Portugal.
I'm afraid you misunderstand, Carana. The police, and not only in Portugal, are aware that publishing details on a missing child possibly abducted for ransom or for some kind of slavery is putting its life in danger.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:32:41 PM
In the interests of fair debate and balance it would appear that the PJ are also guilty of suppressing e-fit images.. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/revealed-suspect-images-the-cops-never-986130
?{)(**
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 22, 2013, 06:33:12 PM
I'm afraid you misunderstand, Carana. The police, and not only in Portugal, are aware that publishing details on a missing child possibly abducted for ransom or for some kind of slavery is putting its life in danger.
That's another reason 8((()*/
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:36:13 PM
It's also to do with managing an investigation so it isn't overloaded with information.
I read or heard in a documentary recently re: the Soham case a policeman say that sometimes asking the public for help can do more harm than good - too many false sightings wasting police resources etc.
It's interesting to reckon why many countries are reluctant to programs like Crimewatch. I wonder how much time of valuable police officers' time was lost in analysing the more than 3 thousands calls/e-mails.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:37:27 PM
Is it a mega issue when I ask fairly simple questions to which no one has an answer?
If so, why?
@)(++(*
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 22, 2013, 06:43:37 PM
I still find it hard to comprehend the idea that an e-fit based on a vague description of a person could be in any way useful.
A fleeting glance of an unknown person is unlikely to produce an artist's impression that is worthy of much.
Why produce a bland-looking e-fit of a 'white male, with dark hair, of medium build, and of average height' unless there are some distinguishing features?
The sad part of this whole e-fit saga is that the pictures themselves are unlikely to be of any assistance whatsoever in finding Madeleine and resolving the case.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:50:01 PM
I still find it hard to comprehend the idea that an e-fit based on a vague description of a person could be in any way useful.
A fleeting glance of an unknown person is unlikely to produce an artist's impression that is worthy of much.
Why produce a bland-looking e-fit of a 'white male, with dark hair, of medium build, and of average height' unless there are some distinguishing features?
The sad part of this whole e-fit saga is that the pictures themselves are unlikely to be of any assistance whatsoever in finding Madeleine and resolving the case.
I guess everybody will agree with this. Then why exhibiting/hiding those, as you said, floating heads ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 06:52:46 PM
I guess everybody will agree with this. Then why exhibiting/hiding those, as you said, floating heads ?
The e-fit system seems to be standard police procedure in a lot of countries, doesn't it.
Just found this fascinating tidbit regarding the success of e-fits. I looked this up because I remember hearing on a crimewatch episode a long time ago the claim that e-fits had assisted the police on many occasions.
The E-FIT and Pro-fit systems used in the UK have been subjected to a number of formal academic examinations. In these studies, composites were correctly named,[clarification needed] either immediately or a few hours after construction, approximately 20% of the time.[1][2][3] In one study in which witnesses were required to wait two days before constructing a composite, which matches real use more closely, naming rates fell to only a few percent.[4][/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-FIT
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 22, 2013, 07:11:11 PM
So-called 'Evolutionary systems', a very recent technique (not apparently used here), produce vastly better results.
The images are composed differently (rather than making a composite of facial features, the witness responds to various pictures they are shown, and a 'holistic' picture is created consisting of a composite of the images they select).
The resulting picture is also in 3-D giving a far more realistic aspect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_composite
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 07:21:00 PM
But some people keep saying that publicising details of a missing person is illegal or detrimental in Portugal.
I agree that e-fits of a suspect are not the same thing as the details of a missing person, but some seem to insist that details of a missing person should not be divulged either... How on earth would the PJ be expected to help find them?
I find that incomprehensible.
The PJ website gives details about missing people, including any distinguishing features. (It might be useful if they updated the site... but, anyway.)
In theory (and strictly adhered to) the secrecy laws preclude absolutely any information being released into the public domain about an on-going investigation ...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 07:30:31 PM
I'm afraid you misunderstand, Carana. The police, and not only in Portugal, are aware that publishing details on a missing child possibly abducted for ransom or for some kind of slavery is putting its life in danger.
Ok, one may as well forget about any missing child alert in the golden hours then...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 07:52:05 PM
In theory (and strictly adhered to) the secrecy laws preclude absolutely any information being released into the public domain about an on-going investigation ...
I can understand that to a certain extent (if it had been respected, which it wasn't), but what did the PJ have in place to alert the public to phone in about potential sightings with relevant details in the early days?
How would that have been efficient if no distinguishing features had been made public?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Carana on December 22, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
Ok, one may as well forget about any missing child alert in the golden hours then...
This isn't the point, Carana. Read on another thread : In the village of Souk-el-Arba-des-Beni- Hassan, men gathered round to view posters of Madeleine and an artist's impression image of a moustached man of north African appearance who had been a possible suspect. He has since been ruled out of the case. The drawing produced almost hysterical laughter. “There are a million men who look like this,” said Mustafa Ben Dris, who was about the only man there without a moustache.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 08:33:57 PM
I can understand that to a certain extent (if it had been respected, which it wasn't), but what did the PJ have in place to alert the public to phone in about potential sightings with relevant details in the early days?
How would that have been efficient if no distinguishing features had been made public?
I've always found laughable the obsession in spreading photos of Madeleine among the GNR/PJ, as if many 3/4 yrs would be walking around on their own.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 08:38:12 PM
So-called 'Evolutionary systems', a very recent technique (not apparently used here), produce vastly better results.
The images are composed differently (rather than making a composite of facial features, the witness responds to various pictures they are shown, and a 'holistic' picture is created consisting of a composite of the images they select).
The resulting picture is also in 3-D giving a far more realistic aspect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_composite
Are you sure it was not used in the Smithman e-fits ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 08:48:57 PM
The e-fit system seems to be standard police procedure in a lot of countries, doesn't it.
Just found this fascinating tidbit regarding the success of e-fits. I looked this up because I remember hearing on a crimewatch episode a long time ago the claim that e-fits had assisted the police on many occasions.
The E-FIT and Pro-fit systems used in the UK have been subjected to a number of formal academic examinations. In these studies, composites were correctly named,[clarification needed] either immediately or a few hours after construction, approximately 20% of the time.[1][2][3] In one study in which witnesses were required to wait two days before constructing a composite, which matches real use more closely, naming rates fell to only a few percent.[4][/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-FIT
That's very interesting. I suppose that it's difficult to generalize. We all know that some faces are characteristic, most aren't. I've recently seen a picture of one of the disguises used by Ernesto Guevara (actually the one the Che used to enter in Bolivia). He changed his hair totally and was shaved... His so singular way of looking, his nose, his mouth, all this is there, but we're cheated by the hair and lack of beard.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 09:00:41 PM
A spokesman for Portugal's Policia Judiciaria said: "To speak out like this while an investigation is ongoing is illegal.
"It is a breach of the secrecy of justice laws and as such is punishable by up two years in prison. These laws are in place to protect evidence and for anyone connected with an investigation - be it a witness, arguido or police officer - to discuss the case publicly is not permitted.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 09:14:31 PM
A spokesman for Portugal's Policia Judiciaria said: "To speak out like this while an investigation is ongoing is illegal.
"It is a breach of the secrecy of justice laws and as such is punishable by up two years in prison. These laws are in place to protect evidence and for anyone connected with an investigation - be it a witness, arguido or police officer - to discuss the case publicly is not permitted.
This is no backing up. Btw Ms Tanner at best saw a man carrying a child, not an abductor. She shouldn't take her terrors for reality. Why were people calling her a liar ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 09:15:32 PM
Frustration reigns among journalists covering the case. Everybody who knows anything worthwhile is bound by Portugal's judicial secrecy laws not to talk. That includes the police, lawyers, court officials, the McCanns and almost anyone who has given evidence. That has not, of course, prevented the media providing a daily feast of "details". So where do these come from?
A spokesman for Portugal's Policia Judiciaria said: "To speak out like this while an investigation is ongoing is illegal.
"It is a breach of the secrecy of justice laws and as such is punishable by up two years in prison. These laws are in place to protect evidence and for anyone connected with an investigation - be it a witness, arguido or police officer - to discuss the case publicly is not permitted.
"I just saw a person walk along the top of the road with what could have been a child in his arms." >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 09:18:15 PM
This is no backing up. Btw Ms Tanner at best saw a man carrying a child, not an abductor. She shouldn't take her terrors for reality. Why were people calling her a liar ?
It is the incontrovertible proof of my assertion ...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 09:20:21 PM
If Tannerman was the abductor then he had to be hiding in the apartment when Gerry did his check and then left by way of the front door at 9.10pm. The same time that Jane leaves the tapas bar and walks up the road and spots him. He wouldn't have time to abduct Madeleine unless it happened that way. But that doesn't explain the Smithman sighting 45 minutes later or the open window. If this was a case of a pre-planned abduction then it must be the worst plan ever! You don't go walking the streets with an abducted child in your arms. That is a last resort and probably the only solution to a disaster that has happened!
He did not have to be hiding in the apartment, although it is possible. If the apartment was watched then a an aduction with a key could have been accomplished in less than a minute ... and no finger prints on the door. The time is continually being stretched I notice .... so it happened at 9.10 now, did it? It could have been any time between 9.10 and 9 22 imo.
With a key via the front door and a watcher, it is perfectly possible.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 09:22:08 PM
It is one way of avoiding debate when you have been established wrong ...
You're not being honest, Ferryman, and it's not the first time. You assume critics of the PJ without backing up your claims, your agenda is to discredit Mr Grime and the PJ, I don't know why and I don't mind. You make me laugh ! that has certainly to be put on your credit !
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 22, 2013, 09:32:19 PM
You're not being honest, Ferryman, and it's not the first time. You assume critics of the PJ without backing up your claims, your agenda is to discredit Mr Grime and the PJ, I don't know why and I don't mind. You make me laugh ! that has certainly to be put on your credit !
Confirmation.
You clearly don't read my posts ...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 09:35:18 PM
Are you out of your mind ? SY have not only ruled out Tannerman BUT have also interviewed the man in question, having collected his child from the night crèche ! Are you doubting and casting aspersions over the SY investigation ? Simple facts, lesson one, SY have eliminated Tannerman as having no relevance to the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann ! In light of this, why the official findmadeleine website continues to promote Tannerman as a "person of interest" whilst not publicising the legally 'suppressed' Smithman e-fits beggars belief !
Not at all. Just saying that all the publicity and people who reacted to Crimewatch, might have found some holes in statements given by this man.... and they may have progressed and ammended.
I dont know and you dont know either ... unless you are SY or PJ or the man.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 22, 2013, 09:40:11 PM
Not at all. Just saying that all the publicity and people who reacted to Crimewatch, might have found some holes in statements given by this man.... and they may have progressed and ammended.
I dont know and you dont know either ... unless you are SY or PJ or the man.
Very unlikely, Sadie. I'd put money on that.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 09:40:47 PM
He did not have to be hiding in the apartment, although it is possible. If the apartment was watched then a an aduction with a key could have been accomplished in less than a minute ... and no finger prints on the door. The time is continually being stretched I notice .... so it happened at 9.10 now, did it? It could have been any time between 9.10 and 9 22 imo.
With a key via the front door and a watcher, it is perfectly possible.
Jane said she left the tapas bar at 9.10pm (Rachael also said that was the time) so she would have sighted the man at 9.12pm. On the tapas timeline it was 9.20pm. Someone wanted to bring the timeline forward for Kate's check at 10pm because of the Smithman sighting at that time (can't be in two places at once deception). This was pre-planned but by no abductor or paedo gang. The shutters were raised from the inside of the apartment not the outside. An abductor wouldn't waste time or touch those noisy shutters if he had a key to the door.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 09:49:25 PM
I've always found laughable the obsession in spreading photos of Madeleine among the GNR/PJ, as if many 3/4 yrs would be walking around on their own.
Doesn't matter whethber she was walking around on her own or was in a crowd of people, the photos of Madeleine were photos of the missing girl. What is laughable about that Anne?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 09:57:24 PM
You're not being honest, Ferryman, and it's not the first time. You assume critics of the PJ without backing up your claims, your agenda is to discredit Mr Grime and the PJ, I don't know why and I don't mind. You make me laugh ! that has certainly to be put on your credit !
Anne, that you, especially, should call Ferryman dishonest is a gross travesty of Justice.
I have known Ferryman for over 6 years and I have never known him lie. .. or twist
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 22, 2013, 10:09:31 PM
You're not being honest, Ferryman, and it's not the first time. You assume critics of the PJ without backing up your claims, your agenda is to discredit Mr Grime and the PJ, I don't know why and I don't mind. You make me laugh ! that has certainly to be put on your credit !
mr Grime doesn't need to be discredited...he said the dogs alerts were meaningless without forensic confirmation...we all understand that...the PJ didnt
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: slartibartfast on December 22, 2013, 10:13:11 PM
You're not being honest, Ferryman, and it's not the first time. You assume critics of the PJ without backing up your claims, your agenda is to discredit Mr Grime and the PJ, I don't know why and I don't mind. You make me laugh ! that has certainly to be put on your credit !
It appears more that davel and ferryman are putting forward legal defense arguments rather than Internet forum debate.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 10:15:30 PM
Jane said she left the tapas bar at 9.10pm (Rachael also said that was the time) so she would have sighted the man at 9.12pm. On the tapas timeline it was 9.20pm. Someone wanted to bring the timeline forward for Kate's check at 10pm because of the Smithman sighting. This was pre-planned but by no abductor or paedo gang.
With all due respect Pathfinder, those are your thoughts only, and they should be stated as such. They are not fact
The shutters were raised from the inside of the apartment not the outside. An abductor wouldn't waste time or touch those noisy shutters if he had a key to the door.
I think you are probably right about the window and shutter being raised from inside However, we dont KNOW that . Heribert Janosch proved that in certain circumstances they could have been raiseed from the outside and the window opened also from outside, if it was only closed and not lockeed.
Reasons for the window open and shutters raised have been gone over time and again ... and there are at least 7 possible reasons
Just to list a few
1) As an escape route in emergency 2) To take the investigators eye off the door as the entrance point. Why? Because this pointed to someone with access to OC keys being involved 3) To give the false impression for the Golden period that Madeleine had climbed out of the window and wandered off.. The first few hours are the Golden ones 4) To pass drugs and give instructions 5) To give moral support to the lifter. 6) For the lifter to watch for anyone coming from the car park direction
The sound of shutters would be a common sound in OC and like a car passing by, would be unlikely to be noticed by neighbours. Seems it wasn't noticed by anyone, so why all the fuss about it? It cant have been that obtrusive, can it?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 10:16:33 PM
With all due respect Pathfinder, those are your thoughts only, and they should be stated as such. They are not fact I think you are probably right about the window and shutter being raised from inside However, we dont KNOW that . Heribert Janosch proved that in certain circumstances they could have been raiseed from the outside and the window opened also from outside, if it was only closed and not lockeed.
Reasons for the window open and shutters raised have been gone over time and again ... and there are at least 7 possible reasons
Just to list a few
1) As an escape route in emergency 2) To take the investigators eye off the door as the entrance point. Why? Because this pointed to someone with access to OC keys being involved 3) To give the false impression for the Golden period that Madeleine had climbed out of the window and wandered off.. The first few hours are the Golden ones 4) To pass drugs and give instructions 5) To give moral support to the lifter. 6) For the lifter to watch for anyone coming from the car park direction
The sound of shutters would be a common sound in OC and like a car passing by, would be unlikely to be noticed by neighbours. Seems it wasn't noticed by anyone, so why all the fuss about it? It cant have been that obtrusive, can it?
No an abductor wouldn't touch those shutters. He would be in and out the door as quick as possible. That window was open and the door was hidden. Anything else is completely foolish. Did you notice how much stuff was in that room? And he left no evidence. I go for what's probable not impossible.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 22, 2013, 10:23:08 PM
With all due respect Pathfinder, those are your thoughts only, and they should be stated as such. They are not fact I think you are probably right about the window and shutter being raised from inside However, we dont KNOW that . Heribert Janosch proved that in certain circumstances they could have been raiseed from the outside and the window opened also from outside, if it was only closed and not lockeed.
Reasons for the window open and shutters raised have been gone over time and again ... and there are at least 7 possible reasons
Just to list a few
1) As an escape route in emergency 2) To take the investigators eye off the door as the entrance point. Why? Because this pointed to someone with access to OC keys being involved 3) To give the false impression for the Golden period that Madeleine had climbed out of the window and wandered off.. The first few hours are the Golden ones 4) To pass drugs and give instructions 5) To give moral support to the lifter. 6) For the lifter to watch for anyone coming from the car park direction
The sound of shutters would be a common sound in OC and like a car passing by, would be unlikely to be noticed by neighbours. Seems it wasn't noticed by anyone, so why all the fuss about it? It cant have been that obtrusive, can it?
There's another explanation for why it was never noticed.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 22, 2013, 10:24:31 PM
Are you sure it was not used in the Smithman e-fits ?
I will check, Anne, to see if this new 'Evolutionary' system was used in making the Smithman e-fits. I thought that the technique was extremely new, but I could be wrong.
Having a look at the pictures again, I can see that the slimmer face looks like the other examples of the new 3D technique I saw. It looks more 'real' than the other image, which is flatter and more like a drawing.
It's and interesting fact in itself that the two pictures are quite different in style, artistically speaking, as well as the fact that the same man is depicted in two such strikingly different ways.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 10:37:53 PM
I will check, Anne, to see if this new 'Evolutionary' system was used in making the Smithman e-fits. I thought that the technique was extremely new, but I could be wrong.
Having a look at the pictures again, I can see that the slimmer face looks like the other examples of the new 3D technique I saw. It looks more 'real' than the other image, which is flatter and more like a drawing.
It's and interesting fact in itself that the two pictures are quite different in style, artistically speaking, as well as the fact that the same man is depicted in two such strikingly different ways.
Unfortunately we don't know how, if ever, the Smith family reacted to those e-fits. They were 4 adults and 2 teens. Could it be 3 thought Mr Slim plausible and 3 Mr Flat ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 10:43:29 PM
No an abductor wouldn't touch those shutters. He would be in and out the door as quick as possible. That window was open and the door was hidden. Anything else is completely foolish. Did you notice how much stuff was in that room? And he left no evidence. I go for what's probable not impossible.
Nothing impossible about what I have said. Everything is totally feasible.
Why is it so important to you to try and criminalise The Mccanns? There has to be a reason.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 10:48:28 PM
No an abductor wouldn't touch those shutters. He would be in and out the door as quick as possible. That window was open and the door was hidden. Anything else is completely foolish. Did you notice how much stuff was in that room? And he left no evidence. I go for what's probable not impossible.
Once again, you are stating your opinions as fact.
Yep, the door was absolutely hidden. No-one at all could see it. Deeply recessed at the dead-end of a walled walkway with no one passing. Also hidden in the dark. No illumination whatso ever.
Have you been and looked Pathfinder?
The front door is a burglars dream. No one can see it at all.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 10:49:35 PM
I cant see anything wrong with that. Why does it trouble you?
Because they seem to have no theories of their own, but just try and discredit, in a manner somewhat similar to a defence lawyer, the evidence that exists which is not favourable to the McCanns. Most people on here understand that the evidence that exist either way would not stand up in a court of law and most want to get to the truth of what happened.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 10:51:18 PM
The e fit of the man the Smiths saw is prominently displayed on the official Metropoitan Police website
On their stated list of 'priorities' identifying this man is number one
It belies belief that the McCanns removed the e fit from their own website altogether
This thread has run into many pages now, and no-one has come up with a single credible reason for them having done so
They are in a delicate position if you take into account Martin Smith's September statement. Their hope legitimately would be that those who know that statement forget it. Publishing the e-fits (one of them having already been superposed to Mr McCann's face) would be like providing the rope for them to be hanged. They've repeated that they trusted SY, they're not supposed to second them.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 11:06:27 PM
Because they seem to have no theories of their own, but just try and discredit, in a manner somewhat similar to a defence lawyer, the evidence that exists which is not favourable to the McCanns. Most people on here understand that the evidence that exist either way would not stand up in a court of law and most want to get to the truth of what happened.
Yes and nothing more. The rest belongs to justice.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:09:47 PM
Because they seem to have no theories of their own, but just try and discredit, in a manner somewhat similar to a defence lawyer, the evidence that exists which is not favourable to the McCanns. Most people on here understand that the evidence that exist either way would not stand up in a court of law and most want to get to the truth of what happened.
They both understand the dogs readings which many of us, including Amaral did not. They keep re-iterating the facts. They have to do that because so many posters do NOT understand what the dogs reactions meant ... and these people, probably unknowingly, are promoting lies.
We need people like debunker, Ferryman and Davel to put the lies right. Several other posters fully understand the dogs reactions, but few if any, on the anti side, do it seems.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 22, 2013, 11:15:59 PM
So if she saw the face clearly why do you think she didn't put a face on it Anne?
And btw, turned away doesn't necessarily mean deliberately turned away. Could be just far enough away to not give a good enough view.
Better not to have a face at all, than the wrong face, doncha think?
Better have an average face than a blank one that arouses suspicion. What did Jane see that made her suppress the face, the most singular part of a person ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:16:29 PM
They both understand the dogs readings which many of us, including Amaral did not. They keep re-iterating the facts. They have to do that because so many posters do NOT understand what the dogs reactions meant ... and these people, probably unknowingly, are promoting lies.
We need people like debunker, Ferryman and Davel to put the lies right. Several other posters fully understand the dogs reactions, but few if any, on the anti side, do it seems.
We really can't have members promoting myths & lies.
Why didn't Kate shout from the apartment to the tapas, Sadie?
You tried to convince us Madeleine could have done. Why didn't Kate?
We dont know, but Gerry is her rock. No doubt about that. She ran to him and it is only about 75 metres away. World record time for 100 metres, women, is under 11 seconds So at the same rate 150 metres could be run in under 17 seconds. Kate is no slouch, and she had half that distance at about 75 metres, so lets assume that she ran the 75 metres in the time for 150 metres.
She yelled them before she got there, but we will ignore that
So under 17 seconds to her rock and all her friends ... and she knew they would hear her clearly if she went.
Most likely her gut reaction was to get Gerry and I doubt she lucidly thought this out liike I have suggested. However, the facts stand that she probably ran it in 15 -17 seconds.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:31:17 PM
We dont know, but Gerry is her rock. No doubt about that. She ran to him and it is only about 75 metres away. World record time for 100 metres, women, is under 11 seconds So at the same rate 150 metres could be run in under 17 seconds. Kate is no slouch, and she had half that distance at about 75 metres, so lets assume that she ran the 75 metres in the time for 159 metres.
She yelled them before she got there, but we will ignore that
So under 17 seconds to her rock and all her friends ... and she knew they would hear her clearly if she went.
Most likely her gut reaction was to get Gerry and I doubt she lucidly thought this out liike I have suggested. However, the facts stand that she probably ran it in 15 -17 seconds.
But unfortunately she just couldn't quite muster the superhuman strength required to pick up the phone & call the police.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:35:06 PM
We dont know, but Gerry is her rock. No doubt about that. She ran to him and it is only about 75 metres away. World record time for 100 metres, women, is under 11 seconds So at the same rate 150 metres could be run in under 17 seconds. Kate is no slouch, and she had half that distance at about 75 metres, so lets assume that she ran the 75 metres in the time for 150 metres.
She yelled them before she got there, but we will ignore that
So under 17 seconds to her rock and all her friends ... and she knew they would hear her clearly if she went.
Most likely her gut reaction was to get Gerry and I doubt she lucidly thought this out liike I have suggested. However, the facts stand that she probably ran it in 15 -17 seconds.
And when they get back, who sees the window open?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:47:49 PM
Who is a proven liar ! How many different personas has it appeared as and how many professions has it claimed to be thus far ?
OP you are hardening and changing the meaning of what I said. That is a kind of falsification. Post 267 sadie
Quote
They both understand the dogs readings which many of us, including Amaral did not. They keep re-iterating the facts. They have to do that because so many posters do NOT understand what the dogs reactions meant ... and these people, probably unknowingly, are promoting lies.
Many people on here still seem not to understand the meanings and non meanings of the doigs reactions.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 22, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
Unfortunately we don't know how, if ever, the Smith family reacted to those e-fits. They were 4 adults and 2 teens. Could it be 3 thought Mr Slim plausible and 3 Mr Flat ?
It's a mystery all right.
This 'evolutionary system' (silly name, isn't it?) is so-called after part of the process in the e-fits' composition where the witness is shown a very large numbers of pictures of faces, and narrows the collection down to those which bear closest resemblance to the suspect as they remember him (or her).
Then the final picture is composed by the e-fit 'artist' out of those chosen images.
The result is a more real looking picture which is understood to have a much more powerful impact on the viewer because it contains elements of the 'internal features of the face' (whatever they are exactly), in contrast to the so-called photo fit police used to do which was essentially a jigsaw piece composed of eyes, nose, mouth etc. giving rise normally to a very odd looking facial image indeed (Used to give me nightmares after watching Crimewatch as a child!).
I wonder, if the so-called evolutionary technique was the one used with the Smith family, how they did it exactly. Would the individual family members all have been shown scores of pictures from which to select those most similar to their view of the suspect? Or would they have been shown images collectively?
Perhaps they worked separately and this in part would explain the disparity?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: faithlilly on December 22, 2013, 11:50:03 PM
We dont know, but Gerry is her rock. No doubt about that. She ran to him and it is only about 75 metres away. World record time for 100 metres, women, is under 11 seconds So at the same rate 150 metres could be run in under 17 seconds. Kate is no slouch, and she had half that distance at about 75 metres, so lets assume that she ran the 75 metres in the time for 150 metres.
She yelled them before she got there, but we will ignore that
So under 17 seconds to her rock and all her friends ... and she knew they would hear her clearly if she went.
Most likely her gut reaction was to get Gerry and I doubt she lucidly thought this out liike I have suggested. However, the facts stand that she probably ran it in 15 -17 seconds.
Not so much her rock but a pebble in her shoe, or so I hear !
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:51:50 PM
This 'evolutionary system' (silly name, isn't it?) is so-called after part of the process in the e-fits' composition where the witness is shown a very large numbers of pictures of faces, and narrows the collection down to those which bear closest resemblance to the suspect as they remember him (or her).
Then the final picture is composed by the e-fit 'artist' out of those chosen images.
The result is a more real looking picture which is understood to have a much more powerful impact on the viewer because it contains elements of the 'internal features of the face' (whatever they are exactly, in contrast to the so-called photo fit police used to do which was essentially a jigsaw piece composed of eyes, nose, mouth etc. giving rise normally to a very odd looking facial image indeed (Used to give me nightmares after watching Crimewatch as a child!).
I wonder, if the so-called evolutionary technique was the one used with the Smith family, how they did it exactly. Would the individual family members all have been shown scores of pictures from which to select those most similar to their view of the suspect? Or would they have been shown images collectively?
Perhaps they worked separately and this in part would explain the disparity?
Sherlock, do you think that means gives depth as well as height and width to the featyres. In other words helps show the hollows and raised cheek bones etc ... and the actual bone structure more?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 22, 2013, 11:58:25 PM
Sherlock, do you think that means gives depth as well as height and width to the featyres. In other words helps show the hollows and raised cheek bones etc ... and the actual bone structure more?
Being an artist you probably would have a good idea about this, Sadie!
It looks like it could mean that, doesn't it?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 23, 2013, 12:09:16 AM
Sadie, I've got nothing against the McCann's. I don't know them: they could be nice people or they could be assholes. But they are stuck between a rock and a hard place from what I've read in the files and they're arrogant defensive actions against the dogs. Those dogs didn't lie (they only did their job and if they alerted at Murat's it would be a different story on here from the detractors) but people do.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 23, 2013, 12:30:47 AM
Sadie, I've got nothing against the McCann's. I don't know them: they could be nice people or they could be assholes. But they are stuck between a rock and a hard place from what I've read in the files and they're arrogant defensive actions against the dogs. Those dogs didn't lie (they only did their job and if they alerted at Murat's it would be a different story on here from the detractors) but people do.
I understand what you are saying Pathfinder, but I dont think you are totally understanding what the alerts meant. Amaral didn't ... and that is why he got himself in such a mess.
Despite reading it over and over, I am still not sure I understand it completely .... but I understand enough to know that the alerts are totally unsafe, because they do not mean what we thought they meant. Too late now for me to look things up ... and attempt to explain what I am trying to say.
Anyway it is better that the experts explain than me.
Nigh night Pathfinder.
Nigh night Sherlock.
Sleep well.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 12:54:20 AM
This 'evolutionary system' (silly name, isn't it?) is so-called after part of the process in the e-fits' composition where the witness is shown a very large numbers of pictures of faces, and narrows the collection down to those which bear closest resemblance to the suspect as they remember him (or her).
Then the final picture is composed by the e-fit 'artist' out of those chosen images.
The result is a more real looking picture which is understood to have a much more powerful impact on the viewer because it contains elements of the 'internal features of the face' (whatever they are exactly), in contrast to the so-called photo fit police used to do which was essentially a jigsaw piece composed of eyes, nose, mouth etc. giving rise normally to a very odd looking facial image indeed (Used to give me nightmares after watching Crimewatch as a child!).
I wonder, if the so-called evolutionary technique was the one used with the Smith family, how they did it exactly. Would the individual family members all have been shown scores of pictures from which to select those most similar to their view of the suspect? Or would they have been shown images collectively?
Perhaps they worked separately and this in part would explain the disparity?
People might cooperate more efficiently if they knew in with conditions the e-fits were done and why there are two. SY however might in fact know nothing about the making of.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 23, 2013, 01:15:41 AM
Good night Sadie
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 23, 2013, 01:19:57 AM
People might cooperate more efficiently if they knew in with conditions the e-fits were done and why there are two. SY however might in fact know nothing about the making of.
Do you think SY don't know so much about them?
According to DCI Redwood, SY is taking the investigation 'back to zero, assuming nothing'.
Given that SY seem to be putting all their money on Smithman and have made showcasing the e-fits the centre of their inquiries (publicly at least), wouldn't they look into exactly how those images were made?
Wouldn't they want to be sure to get the best images possible?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Benice on December 23, 2013, 01:59:38 AM
Sadie, I've got nothing against the McCann's. I don't know them: they could be nice people or they could be assholes. But they are stuck between a rock and a hard place from what I've read in the files and they're arrogant defensive actions against the dogs. Those dogs didn't lie (they only did their job and if they alerted at Murat's it would be a different story on here from the detractors) but people do.
You say that the dogs didn't lie. Do you also agree that Eddie alerted to blood from living people, and also to various body bits from living people even if the scent was many decades old, or came from underground, or had been innocently imported from elsewhere by various means?
Without a body or other corroborating evidence there is absolutely no way the dog can prove to his handler - who he alerted to, or whether the scent he alerted to was from a dead or living person, or how long the scent had been there or even how it got there.
It is for those reasons - (all given to us by Martin Grime) , that he repeatedly states that without the necessary corroborating evidence the alerts cannot be regarded as proof that his dog had alerted to a dead body.
The same would apply wherever the dogs alerted - including Murat's property.
Anyone claiming that because the dogs alerted - that means a dead body must have been present - is also saying that Martin Grime does not know what he is talking about.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: slartibartfast on December 23, 2013, 06:55:47 AM
You say that the dogs didn't lie. Do you also agree that Eddie alerted to blood from living people, and also to various body bits from living people even if the scent was many decades old, or came from underground, or had been innocently imported from elsewhere by various means?
Without a body or other corroborating evidence there is absolutely no way the dog can prove to his handler - who he alerted to, or whether the scent he alerted to was from a dead or living person, or how long the scent had been there or even how it got there.
It is for those reasons - (all given to us by Martin Grime) , that he repeatedly states that without the necessary corroborating evidence the alerts cannot be regarded as proof that his dog had alerted to a dead body.
The same would apply wherever the dogs alerted - including Murat's property.
Anyone claiming that because the dogs alerted - that means a dead body must have been present - is also saying that Martin Grime does not know what he is talking about.
Again, this is using a court of law approach. The police look at indications to see what may have happened, e.g. possible sightings, motives and dog alerts. They then try and find hard evidence to back up those indications. In this case they have found no evidence hard enough to stand up in a court of law. To use caveats placed on the alerts to ignore the indications is as sensible as looking at the contraindications on a drug as the sole basis of deciding whether to use it or not.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: stephen25000 on December 23, 2013, 07:34:58 AM
meanwhile I've noticed in recent days his last I.D. 'rogerandout' appearing twice on the list of members online.
Now if he has been banned, how is he appearing, or does he have another silent I.D. ? >@@(*&)
I have just looked at a few of his post and from what I could see, he seems a very well informed person, so what did he do to upset the forum ? His name is on the list of users on line now, so maybe he is just banned from posting
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: jassi on December 23, 2013, 08:45:31 AM
According to DCI Redwood, SY is taking the investigation 'back to zero, assuming nothing'.
Given that SY seem to be putting all their money on Smithman and have made showcasing the e-fits the centre of their inquiries (publicly at least), wouldn't they look into exactly how those images were made?
Wouldn't they want to be sure to get the best images possible?
If that were true, it should mean that they are not only considering abduction. I wonder if he really meant that ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Benice on December 23, 2013, 08:59:46 AM
I have just looked at a few of his post and from what I could see, he seems a very well informed person, so what did he do to upset the forum ? His name is on the list of users on line now, so maybe he is just banned from posting
He is a very well informed person. Also intelligent and articulate and someone who backed up his claims Any forum should be glad to have him as a poster. To describe him as a liar is a ridiculous exaggeration IMO.
Still, never mind - we've still got Stephen.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 23, 2013, 09:06:02 AM
He is a very well informed person. Also intelligent and articulate and someone who backed up his claims Any forum should be glad to have him as a poster. To describe him as a liar is a ridiculous exaggeration IMO.
Still, never mind - we've still got Stephen.
Yes Debunker was oh so articulate when, whilst wearing his Aiofe hat, he stated that 'all sceptics are wan**rs'. Any forum should be glad of that sort of input.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: stephen25000 on December 23, 2013, 09:11:22 AM
He is a very well informed person. Also intelligent and articulate and someone who backed up his claims Any forum should be glad to have him as a poster. To describe him as a liar is a ridiculous exaggeration IMO.
Still, never mind - we've still got Stephen.
Well in your case, we know you by the company you keep. 8)-)))
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Benice on December 23, 2013, 09:12:44 AM
Yes Debunker was oh so articulate when, whilst wearing his Aiofe hat, he stated that 'all sceptics are wan**rs'. Any forum should be glad of that sort of input.
No worse - in fact not as bad as some of the insults regularly coming from some sceptics imo - except their posts are removed before too many people get to see them.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Benice on December 23, 2013, 09:43:40 AM
Again, this is using a court of law approach. The police look at indications to see what may have happened, e.g. possible sightings, motives and dog alerts. They then try and find hard evidence to back up those indications. In this case they have found no evidence hard enough to stand up in a court of law. To use caveats placed on the alerts to ignore the indications is as sensible as looking at the contraindications on a drug as the sole basis of deciding whether to use it or not.
No - this is quoting facts. Facts are facts whether quoted in a court or outside. In the case of the dogs it's not a pick 'n mix situation. It seems to me that some people want to use the fact that Eddie alerted to the scent of dead bodies but at the same time want to ignore the fact that he also alerted to the same scents from living people. They also want to ignore all the other reasons which Grime describes which prevents any specific conclusion being drawn as to why the dog alerted - unless as he states - corroboration is forthcoming.
Anyway - I've just realised this is probably off topic - so my last post on this subject.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
None of us here are discussing a court case. We are all discussing what we think happened. If we stick to the route of only ever discussing evidence then we've got a big problem because the conclusion will be that nobody did it!
"We're not debating a court case" has a tendency to be long lost when evidence is discussed. I don't think that any of us is able to think that it happened this or that way. But everyone has likely ratiocinated that this or that couldn't have happened. Instead of suggesting that the police knew the e-fits for years, why not trying to understand why they have no place on the official site whereas according to DCI RW Tannerman has turned obsolete ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 11:20:57 AM
so what did he do to upset the forum ? His name is on the list of users on line now, so maybe he is just banned from posting
He broke the rules of the forum repeatedly and under different masks, exhibited private data of posters, insulted, threatened, refused to back up some allegations... all posts deleted.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 11:27:08 AM
If that were true, it should mean that they are not only considering abduction. I wonder if he really meant that ?
Exactly. If it were true that "SY is taking the investigation 'back to zero, assuming nothing", then they wouldn't consider only abduction.We know from the very beginning that the issue was to find Madeleine who could very well be alive and the persons who had taken her. Could SY on its own authority go to Ireland and interview the Smith family ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 23, 2013, 11:48:09 AM
No worse - in fact not as bad as some of the insults regularly coming from some sceptics imo - except their posts are removed before too many people get to see them.
Please do give an example of sceptics using similar or even worse language towards other forum members.
Do you share the same opinion as sadie in believing words like 'half a brain cell' to be very abusive?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Anna on December 23, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
He broke the rules of the forum repeatedly and under different masks, exhibited private data of posters, insulted, threatened, refused to back up some allegations... all posts deleted.
Thanks....I was just uninformed as to why he was banned
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 23, 2013, 12:57:43 PM
You may have misunderstood me. If you read my post again you should hopefully realise that is what I myself was wondering. ?{)(**
I agree that things should not be solely debated on evidence. It's pretty obvious to me that the evidence proves nobody guilty of either the crime of abduction, murder or concealment of a body. All this leaves really is to debate the rest on the balance of probability. Never enough to convict anybody but certainly enough to point in direction where further evidence may be found.
It's a good start that you acknowledge there is no evidence of any crime by the McCanns or by Robert Murat.
The next step would be to acknowledge that what might, otherwise, be regarded as possible pointers to what happened on evening May 3rd can't be because of incompetence by those directing operations ...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 01:01:37 PM
You may have misunderstood me. If you read my post again you should hopefully realise that is what I myself was wondering. ?{)(**
I agree that things should not be solely debated on evidence. It's pretty obvious to me that the evidence proves nobody guilty of either the crime of abduction, murder or concealment of a body. All this leaves really is to debate the rest on the balance of probability. Never enough to convict anybody but certainly enough to point in direction where further evidence may be found.
I understood your idea, Buzz, I was just trying and echoing it ! As the nature of the crime isn't defined, none of the protagonists can be exonerated for good. The reason why the McCanns wanted a review is very legitimate : it is the only chance to prove abduction. As far as now they haven't.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 23, 2013, 01:45:10 PM
Ferryman, by all means you are more than welcome in attempting to convince me. However I must warn you that based on what I have seen so far, especially regarding the McCanns behaviour, you will have an immense if not impossible job on your hands.
You would need to provide enough evidence of an actual abduction to outweigh my suspicions. For me this lack of evidence along with the McCanns behaviour is the reason for so much anti feeling towards them. Their conduct regarding the e-fits does nothing at all to help their own cause.
If there had been clear, concrete evidence of an abduction then I would have no problem. Unfortunately this is where the whole argument falls woefully short for me. If I was to abduct a child my whole focus would be to snatch the child and make my escape as fast as possible. It would not be to make every single minute aspect of the abduction from start to finish untraceable which is exactly what has happened in this instance. For me that would require a lot more time and planning than the abductor appears to have had.
Abduction is still a possibility.
Smithman was an abductor and it's complete coincidence he had a passing resemblance to Gerry Mccann.
or maybe
Smithman was actually just innocent dad with his Madeleine lookalike daughter. Madeleine was taken by one of the multitude of other creepy looking perverts reported to be loitering with intent near the ocean club around that time.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 23, 2013, 02:53:53 PM
Exactly. If it were true that "SY is taking the investigation 'back to zero, assuming nothing", then they wouldn't consider only abduction.We know from the very beginning that the issue was to find Madeleine who could very well be alive and the persons who had taken her. Could SY on its own authority go to Ireland and interview the Smith family ?
Don't see why not.
Given that the Smith family sighting is so important to SY at the moment, one would imagine they are already in communication.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 23, 2013, 03:24:31 PM
Ferryman, by all means you are more than welcome in attempting to convince me. However I must warn you that based on what I have seen so far, especially regarding the McCanns behaviour, you will have an immense if not impossible job on your hands.
You would need to provide enough evidence of an actual abduction to outweigh my suspicions. For me this lack of evidence along with the McCanns behaviour is the reason for so much anti feeling towards them. Their conduct regarding the e-fits does nothing at all to help their own cause.
If there had been clear, concrete evidence of an abduction then I would have no problem. Unfortunately this is where the whole argument falls woefully short for me. If I was to abduct a child my whole focus would be to snatch the child and make my escape as fast as possible. It would not be to make every single minute aspect of the abduction from start to finish untraceable which is exactly what has happened in this instance. For me that would require a lot more time and planning than the abductor appears to have had.
If the McCanns were involved in the death or concealment of their daughter then that also appears to have been exceptionally well hidden. It would also have required time, planning, and a level of knowledge of the local area that the casual tourist would be hard pressed to acquire on the spot.
I respectfully disagree that abduction requires a special level of proof that the other possibilities in this case do not. (Maybe that is not quite what you meant, but that is what is implied). Killing and / or disposing of a child, perverting the course of justice, and conducting a campaign of fraud on a massive scale, are profoundly serious crimes for which the punishment would be many years of incarceration.
Very high levels of proof would be needed to prove or substantiate such things. 'Suspicious behaviour' over e-fits and the like is far from enough.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 03:39:08 PM
It would also have required time, planning, and a level of knowledge of the local area that the casual tourist would be hard pressed to acquire on the spot.
Why ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 03:54:44 PM
That means they are considering - or have considered - all theories, including the guilt of the McCanns.
If they had first investigated the McCanns, which everybody would consider reasonable, in order to discard the possible crime of homicide and body concealment listed in the AG report, and if they had found evidence that the McCanns aren't possibly implied, this wouldn't have been a more solid argument than Tractorman to reopen the case and at least erase the homicide/concealment hypothesis. SY is certainly aware it would be politically correct to make sure that a massive majority of UK taxpayers are supporters. Why, if they had means to sent sceptics back to their doubts, wouldn't they do it ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 23, 2013, 04:34:02 PM
If they had first investigated the McCanns, which everybody would consider reasonable, in order to discard the possible crime of homicide and body concealment listed in the AG report, and if they had found evidence that the McCanns aren't possibly implied, this wouldn't have been a more solid argument than Tractorman to reopen the case and at least erase the homicide/concealment hypothesis. SY is certainly aware it would be politically correct to make sure that a massive majority of UK taxpayers are supporters. Why, if they had means to sent sceptics back to their doubts, wouldn't they do it ?
Are you saying that you don't think that the new PJ or SY investigation has considered the possible guilt of the McCanns....any competent police investigation would look at the parents first and I am sure both SY and the PJ have done this ...they are now considering other possibilities
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 23, 2013, 04:37:51 PM
Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
because the archiving report thought that it was relavent
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 04:52:57 PM
I'm stating a fact : the AG report, which is up to now the authority in this case, establishes a list of possible crimes (some crimes are excluded) among which "(whether) killed in a neglectful homicide" could hardly concern a perpetrator. This hypothesis is sufficiently serious (as the AG noted, reckoning that it was important to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.) to justify the reopening of the case if evidence against it pops up.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 04:57:18 PM
Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
because the archiving report thought that it was relavent
I don't see why contacts, accomplices and geographical knowledge were needed to dispose of the body. Actually I'm pretty sure that you do it yourself or you don't do it.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Apostate on December 23, 2013, 05:04:13 PM
Are you saying that you don't think that the new PJ or SY investigation has considered the possible guilt of the McCanns....any competent police investigation would look at the parents first and I am sure both SY and the PJ have done this ...they are now considering other possibilities
You've no idea what they're considering,
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 23, 2013, 05:25:39 PM
the fact that SY say the MCCanns are not suspects is pretty clear...the fact that the MCCanns were investigated by the PJ... made arguidos and then had their arguido status cancelled ...is pretty clear...those who stiil expect the McCannns to be charged eventually are deluded ..imo
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 23, 2013, 05:27:29 PM
I don't see why contacts, accomplices and geographical knowledge were needed to dispose of the body. Actually I'm pretty sure that you do it yourself or you don't do it.
that's what you think but it appears others AND the archiving report think it would not be possible without some local knowledge
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 23, 2013, 07:54:45 PM
... dispose of the body.
Vile and objectionable terminology to describe Madeleine!
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 23, 2013, 08:29:42 PM
the fact that SY say the MCCanns are not suspects is pretty clear...the fact that the MCCanns were investigated by the PJ... made arguidos and then had their arguido status cancelled ...is pretty clear...those who stiil expect the McCannns to be charged eventually are deluded ..imo
I don't davel, but I still think Redwood only said what he did to avoid press pandemonium.
That and the PM making his allegiance perfectly clear.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 10:17:44 PM
I don't davel, but I still think Redwood only said what he did to avoid press pandemonium.
That and the PM making his allegiance perfectly clear.
I do agree with that, but I bet the McCann will never be charged, not because they are innocent, but because too many important people supported them and would be discredited if they were found guilty.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 10:26:48 PM
Will reply properly later, Anne. A little busy today!
As for Tractorman - do you think he was the real reason the investigation was re-opened? Or is that just what we're being told?
By chance, because I've never questionned people who might know, I was told something that seems to confirm it. It imo seems mainly to confirm that the Portuguese are as keen to find an abductor at all costs as the British ! And you have to admit that it would marvellously well resolve the case for one side and the other.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 23, 2013, 10:33:32 PM
By chance, because I've never questionned people who might know, I was told something that seems to confirm it. It imo seems mainly to confirm that the Portuguese are as keen to find an abductor at all costs as the British ! And you have to admit that it would marvellously well resolve the case for one side and the other.
I think we all know British newspapers would most likely collude in such a resolution, but would the Portuguese papers be so compliant?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 11:42:08 PM
I'm not sure. Let's see how they react to the trial, whatever the judgement.
Good plan, Anne. The press reaction next month will be educative. 8((()*/
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 24, 2013, 03:06:05 PM
Dear Anne,
I said I would get back to you regarding the question of local knowledge being required in the hiding of a body.
I am sure Gerry McCann is a lot more clever and quick thinking than me, but the thought of doing something like that under pressure of time with no pre-planning just doesn't seem possible.
What location would he pick? Burial would need knowledge of the ground in a particular spot - and equipment. Burial at sea would need knowledge of tides. (Tides in PdL not conducive to carrying a body away anyway - would GM be likely to know this?!). Caves, tunnels, drains, lava tubes in the rocks - how would a first-time visitor to a place know about these things?
And how could he possibly know that the place he had selected, without any researching, would be somewhere no-one would search or find?
Apologies to Gerry McCann for even putting it like this, because I feel the whole idea is preposterous. And it seems to me that the proof of the pudding lies in the last point - the fact that despite the whole area being combed by locals, nothing whatsoever has ever been found - not just a body, but clothing or any other piece of incriminating evidence. IF she died and was disposed of (excuse the graphics) in PdL or environs, it was done exceptionally well by someone with local knowledge - or the perpetrator was astonishingly lucky.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: jassi on December 24, 2013, 03:13:53 PM
I said I would get back to you regarding the question of local knowledge being required in the hiding of a body.
I am sure Gerry McCann is a lot more clever and quick thinking than me, but the thought of doing something like that under pressure of time with no pre-planning just doesn't seem possible.
What location would he pick? Burial would need knowledge of the ground in a particular spot - and equipment. Burial at sea would need knowledge of tides. (Tides in PdL not conducive to carrying a body away anyway - would GM be likely to know this?!). Caves, tunnels, drains, lava tubes in the rocks - how would a first-time visitor to a place know about these things?
And how could he possibly know that the place he had selected, without any researching, would be somewhere no-one would search or find?
Apologies to Gerry McCann for even putting it like this, because I feel the whole idea is preposterous. And it seems to me that the proof of the pudding lies in the last point - the fact that despite the whole area being combed by locals, nothing whatsoever has ever been found - not just a body, but clothing or any other piece of incriminating evidence. IF she died and was disposed of (excuse the graphics) in PdL or environs, it was done exceptionally well by someone with local knowledge - or the perpetrator was astonishingly lucky.
I would favour being lucky
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 24, 2013, 03:30:26 PM
Mainly because, despite all the trips backwards and forward between the restaurant and the flat made by Tapas members and the presence in the area of other guests, no one, apart from possibly the Smith group ever seem to have seen anybody at all. To remove a child without leaving any physical traces surely must have involved a fair degree of luck.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 24, 2013, 04:07:11 PM
Mainly because, despite all the trips backwards and forward between the restaurant and the flat made by Tapas members and the presence in the area of other guests, no one, apart from possibly the Smith group ever seem to have seen anybody at all. To remove a child without leaving any physical traces surely must have involved a fair degree of luck.
A certain luck, I agree, but that Escola Primaria is a rather dark desert. But, once he was alone again, Smithman could cross anybody as a searching person.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 24, 2013, 04:21:47 PM
I am sure Gerry McCann is a lot more clever and quick thinking than me, but the thought of doing something like that under pressure of time with no pre-planning just doesn't seem possible. I've no doubt Mr McCann is clever and quick and what he imo might have done would prove it. I'm not so sure he would have done it, had he had time to pre-plan. The pressure of time and the fact it appeared to him as the only way to keep what remained of his family were potent impellers. We know that people in dramatic situations can go further than one would imagine. What location would he pick? Burial would need knowledge of the ground in a particular spot - and equipment. Burial at sea would need knowledge of tides. (Tides in PdL not conducive to carrying a body away anyway - would GM be likely to know this?!). Caves, tunnels, drains, lava tubes in the rocks - how would a first-time visitor to a place know about these things? And how could he possibly know that the place he had selected, without any researching, would be somewhere no-one would search or find? All this obviously doesn't make sense. Apologies to Gerry McCann for even putting it like this, because I feel the whole idea is preposterous. Al-right but it's not mine ! And it seems to me that the proof of the pudding lies in the last point - the fact that despite the whole area being combed by locals, nothing whatsoever has ever been found - not just a body, but clothing or any other piece of incriminating evidence. IF she died and was disposed of (excuse the graphics) in PdL or environs, it was done exceptionally well by someone with local knowledge - or the perpetrator was astonishingly lucky. I guess Dr Watson would say so, dear Holmes !
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 04:28:51 PM
I do agree with that, but I bet the McCann will never be charged, not because they are innocent, but because too many important people supported them and would be discredited if they were found guilty.
The idea that a serious crime would be covered up by the establishment is preposterous...imo
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 24, 2013, 04:33:50 PM
Cyril Smith, Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Jimmy Savile, Jack Straw, David Kelly et al ! Yup, it is absolutely preposterous ! And again your 'opinion' is worthlessly un-researched!
Jack Straw? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 24, 2013, 05:25:16 PM
This one will always be remembered as the guy who, in spite of the judge Baltasar Garzón and moreover in spite of the decision of the (then existing) Law Lords, sent back home the sadly famous Augusto Pinochet, a fervent adept of torture and a talented (personal) money making dictator.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 24, 2013, 05:26:15 PM
Ah right, I agree he should be in The Hague, but the British establishment has been covering up war crimes for centuries hasn't it. It's nothing new 8(8-))
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 24, 2013, 05:27:37 PM
This one will always be remembered as the guy who, in spite of the judge Baltasar Garzón and moreover in spite of the decision of the (then existing) Law Lords, sent back home the sadly famous Augusto Pinochet, a fervent adept of torture and a talented (personal) money making dictator.
Another great day for Britain 8(8-))
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: faithlilly on December 24, 2013, 06:09:14 PM
I said I would get back to you regarding the question of local knowledge being required in the hiding of a body.
I am sure Gerry McCann is a lot more clever and quick thinking than me, but the thought of doing something like that under pressure of time with no pre-planning just doesn't seem possible.
What location would he pick? Burial would need knowledge of the ground in a particular spot - and equipment. Burial at sea would need knowledge of tides. (Tides in PdL not conducive to carrying a body away anyway - would GM be likely to know this?!). Caves, tunnels, drains, lava tubes in the rocks - how would a first-time visitor to a place know about these things?
And how could he possibly know that the place he had selected, without any researching, would be somewhere no-one would search or find?
Apologies to Gerry McCann for even putting it like this, because I feel the whole idea is preposterous. And it seems to me that the proof of the pudding lies in the last point - the fact that despite the whole area being combed by locals, nothing whatsoever has ever been found - not just a body, but clothing or any other piece of incriminating evidence. IF she died and was disposed of (excuse the graphics) in PdL or environs, it was done exceptionally well by someone with local knowledge - or the perpetrator was astonishingly lucky.
There are many municipal bins dotted around PDL which would need no local knowledge to utilise. Gerry may have used one as a holding receptacle or perhaps he expected the body to be found but as the bins were emptied in the early hours the body was taken and disappeared into landfill. An appalling thought I know but there is no theory in relation to Madeleine's disappearance that isn't unpalatable.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: ferryman on December 24, 2013, 06:34:26 PM
There are many municipal bins dotted around PDL which would need no local knowledge to utilise. Gerry may have used one as a holding receptacle or perhaps he expected the body to be found but as the bins were emptied in the early hours the body was taken and disappeared into landfill. An appalling thought I know but there is no theory in relation to Madeleine's disappearance that isn't unpalatable.
You are quite right Faithlilly, there are many municipal large bins throughout the Algarve emptied on a nightly basis !
And thus in this hypothetical scenario, when no body had been found after a few days to weeks, they would have been confident enough to know she would never be found. Confident enough that they might not worry too much about 'sightings' and ransom demand phonecalls from kidnappers.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 24, 2013, 07:04:39 PM
There are many municipal bins dotted around PDL which would need no local knowledge to utilise. Gerry may have used one as a holding receptacle or perhaps he expected the body to be found but as the bins were emptied in the early hours the body was taken and disappeared into landfill. An appalling thought I know but there is no theory in relation to Madeleine's disappearance that isn't unpalatable.
This one is far from the worst, the paedophile gang one. Mrs McCann lifted a bin's lid. She doesn't say it was empty but it had to be. Is this the reason why they only lifted one bin's lid ?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 24, 2013, 07:11:57 PM
This one is far from the worst, the paedophile gang one. Mrs McCann lifted a bin's lid. She doesn't say it was empty but it had to be. Is this the reason why they only lifted one bin's lid ?
paedophile gang one.
Sad as it sounds, I always considered in that event, death was the more favourable scenario for the poor little girl.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: jassi on December 24, 2013, 07:20:15 PM
Sad as it sounds, I always considered in that event, death was the more favourable scenario for the poor little girl.
Begs the question, though, if there was a gang, why were there not earlier abductions and/or later ones ? Madeleine seems to have been a one off, which doesn't really point to a gang.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 07:21:12 PM
This one is far from the worst, the paedophile gang one. Mrs McCann lifted a bin's lid. She doesn't say it was empty but it had to be. Is this the reason why they only lifted one bin's lid ?
Did they say they only lifted one bins lid or are you assuming that
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 24, 2013, 07:27:44 PM
Begs the question, though, if there was a gang, why were there not earlier abductions and/or later ones ? Madeleine seems to have been a one off, which doesn't really point to a gang.
And I have always wondered where they got the idea it was a paedophile gang who snatched her?
What could have convinced them of that, given that there was no prior history of similar abductions in the area & the only pointers they had were an open window & an empty bed?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 24, 2013, 07:28:39 PM
Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light (myth it was cold and dark 5-6am according to Fiona) Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 24, 2013, 07:32:03 PM
Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light (myth it was cold and dark 5-6am according to Fiona) Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.
"I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here."
Did Kate think it was somewhere she was likely to be?
Very strange that she found some reason to think she might be in there.
Whatever gave her that idea?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 24, 2013, 07:34:31 PM
Exactly maybe Smithman knew.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: jassi on December 24, 2013, 07:37:57 PM
And I have always wondered where they got the idea it was a paedophile gang who snatched her?
What could have convinced them of that, given that there was no prior history of similar abductions in the area & the only pointers they had were an open window & an empty bed?
I imagine it was because it suited their narrative.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 24, 2013, 07:41:33 PM
I imagine it was because it suited their narrative.
Has always been my opinion, & one that the plastic public will suck up and believe because of the media hype & moral panic surrounding child sex abuse.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 07:44:13 PM
Cyril Smith, Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Jimmy Savile, Jack Straw, David Kelly et al ! Yup, it is absolutely preposterous ! And again your 'opinion' is worthlessly un-researched!
Lets start with the Birmingham 6...how was that an establishment cover up
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: j.rob on December 24, 2013, 08:22:15 PM
Friday 4 May. Our first day without Madeleine. As soon as it was light (myth it was cold and dark 5-6am according to Fiona) Gerry and I resumed our search. We went up and down roads we’d never seen before, having barely left the Ocean Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and raked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere. I remember opening a big dumpster-type bin and saying to myself, please God, don’t let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about all this was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed, was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.
Well, if it had been my daughter who had gone missing, I would have been searching all night.
Extraordinary quote: 'nobody else was looking' - errr....other people had been out all night looking. Just not the parents. God, their AUDACITY is just breathtaking.
Also- notice the emphasis of the words - once again, it is all about THEM not their daughter - 'we were completely alone' - that was the most striking and horrific thing about it all.
HANG ON - they claim to believe that their daughter has been abducted by a paedophile - that's pretty bad, right - I mean as a parent that is unimaginably horrific......
Buy, as far as the McCanns are concerned - the worst thing is that they were alone and no-one else was looking. Once again, this is fabrication - a large number of people had been looking, just not the McCanns.
Oh, but I forgot, everything is everyone else's fault, isn't it.........
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 08:24:43 PM
Don't go there, davel. It wasn't British justice's finest hour, put it that way. Far from it.
Im happy to go there..it was a miscarriage of justice...not a cover up... The problem was a misunderstanding of the forensics by the prosecution..a bit like the dogs really
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 08:35:29 PM
Well, if it had been my daughter who had gone missing, I would have been searching all night.
Extraordinary quote: 'nobody else was looking' - errr....other people had been out all night looking. Just not the parents. God, their AUDACITY is just breathtaking.
Also- notice the emphasis of the words - once again, it is all about THEM not their daughter - 'we were completely alone' - that was the most striking and horrific thing about it all.
HANG ON - they claim to believe that their daughter has been abducted by a paedophile - that's pretty bad, right - I mean as a parent that is unimaginably horrific......
Buy, as far as the McCanns are concerned - the worst thing is that they were alone and no-one else was looking. Once again, this is fabrication - a large number of people had been looking, just not the McCanns.
Oh, but I forgot, everything is everyone else's fault, isn't it.........
8((()*/ It was quite deliberate policy from Day 1 to portray themselves as victims wasn't it.
Remember the soundbite, less than three days after the disappearance: "... we continue to hope for the best possible outcome from this for us, and for Madeleine."
An astonishingly successful media strategy, but one that appalled as many as it attracted.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 24, 2013, 08:37:55 PM
the important thing is that british justice admits when it makes a mistake
Eventually.
And not in all cases. Remember at the time talking heads on British TV were criticising the Portuguese police, Barry George was still rotting in a British prison.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 24, 2013, 09:02:01 PM
8((()*/ It was quite deliberate policy from Day 1 to portray themselves as victims wasn't it.
Remember the soundbite, less than three days after the disappearance: "... we continue to hope for the best possible outcome from this for us, and for Madeleine."
An astonishingly successful media strategy, but one that appalled as many as it attracted.
One quote that always bothered me is the Sky News 100 day's interview.
"Everything we have done in the last 100 days is focused on the belief that madeleine was alive when she was abducted"
Focused on the belief that she was alive?
What possible reason could he have had for there to be any uncertainty surrounding that issue.
No one is going to break in, kill her & leave with her. It just doesn't make any sense.
So surely this uncertainty can only have come from some prior knowlege?
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: jassi on December 24, 2013, 09:05:13 PM
One quote that always bothered me is the Sky News 100 day's interview.
"Everything we have done in the last 100 days is focused on the belief that madeleine was alive when she was abducted"
Focused on the belief that she was alive?
What possible reason could he have had for there to be any uncertainty surrounding that issue.
No one is going to break in, kill her & leave with her. It just doesn't make any sense. So surely this uncertainty can only have come from some prior knowlege?
That doesn't seem an unreasonable assumption.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 09:07:53 PM
And not in all cases. Remember at the time talking heads on British TV were criticising the Portuguese police, Barry George was still rotting in a British prison.
Eventually yes...you may have missed the post by Montclair where he said he had never heard of a successful appeal in Portugal in the 37 yrs he had lived there
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Lyall on December 24, 2013, 09:30:09 PM
Eventually yes...you may have missed the post by Montclair where he said he had never heard of a successful appeal in Portugal in the 37 yrs he had lived there
Perhaps there is some misunderstanding with Montclair there? But in any case that has no relevance to establishment coverups in the UK. There have definitely been plenty of those.
You don't need to go back to 1974 and cases in Ireland or involving issues related to Ireland. Look at how difficult it was to investigate phone hacking and bribery etc. Look at the invasion of Iraq, and the Hutton Inquiry.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Mr Gray on December 24, 2013, 09:32:34 PM
Perhaps there is some misunderstanding with Montclair there? But in any case that has no relevance to establishment coverups in the UK. There have definitely been plenty of those.
You don't need to go back to 1974 and cases in Ireland or involving issues related to Ireland. Look at how difficult it was to investigate phone hacking and bribery etc. Look at the invasion of Iraq, and the Hutton Inquiry.
pat made quite an aggressive post..he need to justify it..I await his response re the Birmingham 6
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 24, 2013, 09:34:30 PM
Has always been my opinion, & one that the plastic public will suck up and believe because of the media hype & moral panic surrounding child sex abuse.
Yes, very likely. I think of Mr Mackenzie's shocked reaction when he first heard Mr McCann speak of the phone : his conversation did not change at all when he realised that I was there. I felt as if I were intruding on a private moment .
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 25, 2013, 03:28:57 AM
One quote that always bothered me is the Sky News 100 day's interview.
"Everything we have done in the last 100 days is focused on the belief that madeleine was alive when she was abducted"
Focused on the belief that she was alive?
What possible reason could he have had for there to be any uncertainty surrounding that issue.
No one is going to break in, kill her & leave with her. It just doesn't make any sense.
So surely this uncertainty can only have come from some prior knowlege?
This is one of the curious sentences that would have interested Dr Freud. In 1906, he was invited to speak on the relations between psychoanalysis and criminology. Another curious sentence is "No one will ever feel more guilty than us for the fact that we were not with Madeleine at that time when she was abducted " (first interview 25 May 2007).
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: colombosstogey on December 25, 2013, 07:00:39 AM
And I have always wondered where they got the idea it was a paedophile gang who snatched her?
What could have convinced them of that, given that there was no prior history of similar abductions in the area & the only pointers they had were an open window & an empty bed?
IF there was a pedophile gang operating in a sleepy village in Portugal full of ex pats you can bet your bottom dollar you would know about it surely.
Its hardly something that is kept quiet.
You dont go on a holiday to a popular resort like PDL with the knowledge that there is a gang of child snatchers in the area.
Its known for its love of children, and a great place to live as its fairly stress free (well it was). Prior to this NEVER was there a child snatched in this town.
What really are the chances in all honesty that on the night of the 3rd May 2007 a gang was in operation.
Even more so in the quiet time for holidays, as anyone lurking about would have been noticed by the local residents. This was POPULAR for ex pats. They would have immediately noticed anyone lurking about.
Whoever took that child for me was not a stranger, was known and was also known to the child. IMHO.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 25, 2013, 03:09:56 PM
Well, if it had been my daughter who had gone missing, I would have been searching all night.
Extraordinary quote: 'nobody else was looking' - errr....other people had been out all night looking. Just not the parents. God, their AUDACITY is just breathtaking.
Also- notice the emphasis of the words - once again, it is all about THEM not their daughter - 'we were completely alone' - that was the most striking and horrific thing about it all.
HANG ON - they claim to believe that their daughter has been abducted by a paedophile - that's pretty bad, right - I mean as a parent that is unimaginably horrific......
Buy, as far as the McCanns are concerned - the worst thing is that they were alone and no-one else was looking. Once again, this is fabrication - a large number of people had been looking, just not the McCanns.
Oh, but I forgot, everything is everyone else's fault, isn't it.........
They adored Madeleine, there is no reason whatsoever to doubt it, then there's only one explanation for this strange complaint.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 28, 2013, 05:53:44 PM
Snapped inadvertently in the background of a holiday photo, the mysterious man strolls along after a rain shower, staring out to sea at Praia da Luz.
The picture was taken at the Portuguese resort days before Madeleine, then three, vanished during the evening of May 3, 2007.
Briton Gail Cooper was having lunch with family and friends in a beachside cafe and taking photos when she saw him wandering along the beach, apparently in a world of his own.
"It was odd to see him walking around the beach alone in showery, cold weather." she said.
Snapped inadvertently in the background of a holiday photo, the mysterious man strolls along after a rain shower, staring out to sea at Praia da Luz.
The picture was taken at the Portuguese resort days before Madeleine, then three, vanished during the evening of May 3, 2007.
Briton Gail Cooper was having lunch with family and friends in a beachside cafe and taking photos when she saw him wandering along the beach, apparently in a world of his own.
"It was odd to see him walking around the beach alone in showery, cold weather." she said.
That right hand pic looks like innocentman! Right hand pic cant be creepy toothyman can it? That Gail Cooper saw April 20th or so? Just a few hours before he knocked on her door smelling of garlic? Wheres his long wispy dishevelled hair, dirty clothes and mexican moustache?
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 28, 2013, 06:10:10 PM
That right hand pic looks like innocentman! Right hand pic cant be creepy toothyman can it? That Gail Cooper saw April 20th or so? Just a few hours before he knocked on her door smelling of garlic? Wheres his long wispy dishevelled hair, dirty clothes and mexican moustache?
>@@(*&)
Yes very strange but that is crècheman wearing the same clothes IMO.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 06:14:50 PM
Wrong date? That photo was only taken days before the sighting? When did crècheman/innocentman arrive in PDL?
Coopers pic in the rain was taken around april 20 or so......no one knows when innocentman arrived or left PDL, we assume he was there for a weeks holiday....like so many others from the mark warners arrivals list 28 april to 5 may
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 28, 2013, 07:02:05 PM
Coopers pic in the rain was taken around april 20 or so......no one knows when innocentman arrived or left PDL, we assume he was there for a weeks holiday....like so many others from the mark warners arrivals list 28 april to 5 may
Thanks. This person wasn't questioned in the files? It would be useful to know how long he was in PDL for and the dates? I found this:
Mrs Cooper first spotted the man on the beach at Praia da Luz on April 20 at about 1pm when she went for lunch with friends at the Paraiso Restaurant.
She said: "He was wandering about on the beach alone even though it was pouring down with rain. There wasn't another soul about. I watched him for a few minutes before I went back to chatting to my friends."
Later that day, at around 4pm, Mrs Cooper was startled to find the stranger knocking on the front door of her holiday villa.
She said: "He must have seen my husband leaving because the bell rang only seconds later.
"He flashed what he said was an identity card but it could have been anything.
"He seemed really strange. It was a warm afternoon but he was wearing khaki trousers or joggers, a T-shirt and a bomber jacket. He said he was collecting for an orphanage in nearby Espiche that was caring for three children whose parents had recently been killed in an accident on the main coast road.
"It just didn't add up. Everyone would have known if there had been a tragedy like that.
"The man was rambling and becoming agitated. He really unnerved me even though my two grown-up daughters and two grandchildren were with me.
"I thought he was a conman trying to pull a fast one."
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:04:46 PM
Thanks. This person wasn't questioned in the files? It would be useful to know how long he was in PDL for and the dates? I found this:
Mrs Cooper first spotted the man on the beach at Praia da Luz on April 20 at about 1pm when she went for lunch with friends at the Paraiso Restaurant.
She said: "He was wandering about on the beach alone even though it was pouring down with rain. There wasn't another soul about. I watched him for a few minutes before I went back to chatting to my friends."
Later that day, at around 4pm, Mrs Cooper was startled to find the stranger knocking on the front door of her holiday villa.
She said: "He must have seen my husband leaving because the bell rang only seconds later.
"He flashed what he said was an identity card but it could have been anything.
"He seemed really strange. It was a warm afternoon but he was wearing khaki trousers or joggers, a T-shirt and a bomber jacket. He said he was collecting for an orphanage in nearby Espiche that was caring for three children whose parents had recently been killed in an accident on the main coast road.
"It just didn't add up. Everyone would have known if there had been a tragedy like that.
"The man was rambling and becoming agitated. He really unnerved me even though my two grown-up daughters and two grandchildren were with me.
"I thought he was a conman trying to pull a fast one."
I dont trust cooper and her ever changing statements and stories, sorry.....
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 28, 2013, 07:07:23 PM
Thanks I don't know nothing about her but he doesn't look like the description of creepy man with 70s-style black Mexican moustache.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:11:28 PM
Thanks I don't know nothing about her but he doesn't look like the description of creepy man with 70s-style black Mexican moustache.
Im afraid there was a whole raft of "witnesses" that suddenly came forward with all sorts of "stories" once the mccanns hired metodo 3 and others......
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
Im afraid there was a whole raft of "witnesses" that suddenly came forward with all sorts of "stories" once the mccanns hired metodo 3 and others......
"witnesses" seeming to exhumate the old terrors of their childhood...
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 08:08:08 PM
You know he was loitering around six months before waiiting for madeleine...how sad
And the woman who confronted the straggly-haired stranger eight months before is convinced he is the same man family friend Jane Tanner spotted carrying a child in pyjamas the night Maddy disappeared.
Despite telling police, British nanny Margaret Hall was not asked to help with an artist's impression.
Now, thanks to the Daily Mirror, a sketch of his face can be seen for the first time!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 08:28:44 PM
And the woman who confronted the straggly-haired stranger eight months before is convinced he is the same man family friend Jane Tanner spotted carrying a child in pyjamas the night Maddy disappeared.
Despite telling police, British nanny Margaret Hall was not asked to help with an artist's impression.
Now, thanks to the Daily Mirror, a sketch of his face can be seen for the first time!!!!!!
the police should all bow down to the mirror!!! What would we do without them? One shivers at the thought
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 08:31:29 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-nannys-new-sketch-329189 This one was sure it was bundleman! You know he was loitering around six months before waiiting for madeleine...how sad
"Given that there were problems with rodents in the apartments she went out to have a look in the area at about 00.30. She left by the front door and in the darkness, by the movement sensitive lights, she saw something move and thought it was a rat. To her surprise, when she examined it closely, she saw that it was a brown shoe of a man"
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 08:34:05 PM
"Given that there were problems with rodents in the apartments she went out to have a look in the area at about 00.30. She left by the front door and in the darkness, by the movement sensitive lights, she saw something move and thought it was a rat. To her surprise, when she examined it closely, she saw that it was a brown shoe of a man"
@)(++(*
Ok then when is ratman appearing.... Is melisa little on the case? Hope not
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 08:59:35 PM
Poor guy probably just taken short on the way home from a bar, little suspecting that a nanny would chose to conduct a search for rats in the bushes at half past midnight.
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 09:03:58 PM
Poor guy probably just taken short on the way home from a bar, little suspecting that a nanny would chose to conduct a search for rats in the bushes at half past midnight.
@)(++(*
@)(++(*
BUT BUT he is a suspect!!
As are many others after the fact and in the most despicable and untenble circumstances or years after.....its shocking
Title: Re: The Find Madeleine website, Tannerman & the e-fits
Post by: sadie on December 29, 2013, 01:04:05 AM
As are many others after the fact and in the most despicable and untenble circumstances or years after.....its shocking
Yep, he should be looked at. Altho Gawd only knows how they would identify anyone from that sketch! The hair is a good clue tho. He looks Asian with Kohl around his eyes.