Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: j.rob on January 12, 2014, 03:40:44 PM
Title: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 12, 2014, 03:40:44 PM
I for one would really like an answer to this question. Why was Madeleine crying out in distress for an hour and a quarter on the night of 1st May as reported by a neighbour in a nearby apartment? The neighbour was concerned enough about the crying to speak to a friend about it. What was noteworthy was that the crying escalated. This would not be the case if it were a child who was crying him or herself to sleep. The crying then stopped abruptly when the neighbour heard the patio doors of the apartment being opened.
It's strange that Kate McCann did not refer to this incident in her book, do you not think? I would have thought it was quite relevant. You would think that Kate would have wanted to speak with the neighbour to find out if she had seen anything suspicious. Surely in the minutes and hours directly after Madeleine's alleged disappearance the McCann's would have wanted to get as much information from bystanders as possible. Neighbours could hold vital information.
But no.In actual fact, as Kate helpfully records on page 75 of her book Madeleine, an hour after Madeleine is alleged to have gone missing, 'a lady appeared on a balcony......and, in a plummy voice, inquired: 'Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?'
When Kate told her that 'my little girl had been stolen from her bed' the woman's response was 'woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned'. So much so that Kate and Fiona 'shouted back something rather short and to the point'.
How extraordinary. A potentially important witness appears and their friends and by their insistence that they knew exactly what had happened to their daughter when, in reality, they could not have known exactly what had happened unless they were there when it happened or they were complicit in some way.
They can't have it both ways. They either don't know - in which case abduction would be one possible theory out of many. Or they do know what happened, because either they were in the apartment or they had something to do with it or some prior knowledge.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on January 12, 2014, 03:51:54 PM
I for one would really like an answer to this question. Why was Madeleine crying out in distress for an hour and a quarter on the night of 1st May as reported by a neighbour in a nearby apartment? The neighbour was concerned enough about the crying to speak to a friend about it. What was noteworthy was that the crying escalated. This would not be the case if it were a child who was crying him or herself to sleep. The crying then stopped abruptly when the neighbour heard the patio doors of the apartment being opened.
snipped
We dont actually KNOW that the child crying was Madeleine. Two other apartments with a child / children were, I think, adjacent to Mrs Fenn.
My feeling is that had Madeleine wakened and started crying, she would soon have wakened the twins ... and all three of them would have been bawling. Personally I doubt that instance was Madeleine .... but we shall never know.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 12, 2014, 05:58:17 PM
We dont actually KNOW that the child crying was Madeleine. Two other apartments with a child / children were, I think, adjacent to Mrs Fenn.
My feeling is that had Madeleine wakened and started crying, she would soon have wakened the twins ... and all three of them would have been bawling. Personally I doubt that instance was Madeleine .... but we shall never know.
The McCanns were directly beneath Mrs Fenn, not diagonally beneath or even further away as the others were. No doubt when Mrs Fenn was told that a child had been taken she thought back to the night she witnessed the youngster bawling for an hour.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on January 13, 2014, 12:47:19 AM
This is either a different child or the McCanns are lying. The witness said the crying only stopped once the patio doors opened. The implication of this is that whoever opened those patio doors found a distressed child. Kate and Gerry admitted Madeleine had been crying but only claimed to know about this episode because Madeleine told them. Therefore who is telling the truth? What reason did Mrs Fenn have to lie?
And remember that only the McCanns entered their apartment via the patio door. Only they left the patio door unlocked and only their patio door would have been close enough to Mrs Fenn to be heard by her.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on January 13, 2014, 01:47:05 AM
And remember that only the McCanns entered their apartment via the patio door. Only they left the patio door unlocked and only their patio door would have been close enough to Mrs Fenn to be heard by her.
That is certainly true on May 3rd John. But we are not sure about other nights, are we? Mrs fenn heard crying on May 1st NOT May 3rd.
Had Mrs Fenn been sitting on her balcony, she might have heard one of several patio doors being closed ... and I think that her apartment went over Matts apartment too (one child) and was adjacent to the Paynes apartment (two children IIRC) so the crying could have come from any of them ... or even the flats above if tbey were occupied.
She was an old woman and her hearing might be deceptive. I am fairly deaf and I can no longer identify from which direction sound is travelling. Maybe Mrs Fenn was the same. We just dont know
Lets not jump to conclusions, cos there can be all sorts of reasons why patio doors are opened and closed. One example was on May 3rd when Russell let Matt out via his patio doors to go along the alleyway to the Mccanns apartment.
(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
Even any Mum and Dad might have come into their apartment via the front door. Then Mum immediately gone over to comfort the child whilst Dad escaped the sound of the crying by going out via the patio door for a quiet fag / sit on the balcony.
And personally, with Madeleine not being a shrinking violet but an outgoing little girl, I think that has she been crying for any length of time, she would have got all three of them at it.
If we are not careful, we can hang, draw and quarter The Mccanns for things that have nothing to do with them
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on January 13, 2014, 02:52:24 AM
There is no confusion Sadie. Every member of the tapas-7 stated in their statements that they exited their apartment via the front door. Their back door/patio door was snib locked from the inside.
Kate had to admit to Madeleine being distressed at having been left alone since she had mentioned it to one of the others. Since Mrs Fenn was out on the evening of 2nd May we can deduce that the crying incident occurred on Tuesday 1st May. I wonder if the reason Mrs Fenn went out on the Wednesday night was to get away from a possible repeat of the previous nights crying? Crying which was so bad that Mrs Fenn had to seek advice from her friend by telephone as to whether she should interfere and call reception. Little wonder therefore that Mrs Fenn was somewhat short wth Kate McCann on the Thursday night when she was dsturbed yet again by the family below. I am quite sure she must have thought to herself - here we go again!
Leaving three young children alone in a ground floor holiday apartment with an unlocked door on one occasion could be classed as stupid but to do so every night was borderline idiocy.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: colombosstogey on January 13, 2014, 06:04:27 AM
This is either a different child or the McCanns are lying. The witness said the crying only stopped once the patio doors opened. The implication of this is that whoever opened those patio doors found a distressed child. Kate and Gerry admitted Madeleine had been crying but only claimed to know about this episode because Madeleine told them. Therefore who is telling the truth? What reason did Mrs Fenn have to lie?
Firstly if she heard the patio doors then I would assume it was downstairs. The thing is though were they opening or closing...the sound is the same.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 09:22:37 AM
And remember that only the McCanns entered their apartment via the patio door. Only they left the patio door unlocked and only their patio door would have been close enough to Mrs Fenn to be heard by her.
Russell stayed in with his daughter who was poorly that night. It could have been his little girl who was crying. Children do cry when they're not feeling well. Jane took his dinner to him. Would she have carried his meal all the way round when it was so much quicker and easier to go in via the patio doors? There was no need for them to be locked that night because Russell was there. More pertinently - would she not also have gone home at the end of the evening via the patio doors - for the same reason?
If so - is it possible it could it have been JT's patio door which Mrs Fenn heard immediately before the child stopped crying?
Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until weeks after the 1st May. There is no doubt in my mind that she told the truth, but her memory would not have been as clear as it would have been had she been interviewed as a matter of urgency by the PJ - simply because of her close proximity to the 'scene of the crime'. The fact that she wasn't interviewed at all for weeks was a serious lapse by the PJ IMO.
That also means that no attention at all was given to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st May at those first interviews with the McCanns or their friends because the PJ didn't know about it. Had Mrs Fenn been interviewed within days of the abduction - the matter could have been dealt with and cleared up at that point.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 12:20:45 PM
Or some may think the crying episode was changed to the 2nd to promote the abductor theory. Madeleine may have told them on the morning of the 2nd (where were you last night?) and not the 3rd. But as it was mentioned at the tapas bar and coincidently also the concern of leaving the patio door unlocked on the night that she disappeared then it looks very fishy (never mind sitting with your backs to the apartment at the tapas bar 8-)(--)). The whole case of impossible moving doors and an open window that nobody passed through screams out SET UP!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 12:33:50 PM
Russell stayed in with his daughter who was poorly that night. It could have been his little girl who was crying. Children do cry when they're not feeling well. Jane took his dinner to him. Would she have carried his meal all the way round when it was so much quicker and easier to go in via the patio doors? There was no need for them to be locked that night because Russell was there. More pertinently - would she not also have gone home at the end of the evening via the patio doors - for the same reason?
If so - is it possible it could it have been JT's patio door which Mrs Fenn heard immediately before the child stopped crying?
Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until weeks after the 1st May. There is no doubt in my mind that she told the truth, but her memory would not have been as clear as it would have been had she been interviewed as a matter of urgency by the PJ - simply because of her close proximity to the 'scene of the crime'. The fact that she wasn't interviewed at all for weeks was a serious lapse by the PJ IMO.
That also means that no attention at all was given to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st May at those first interviews with the McCanns or their friends because the PJ didn't know about it. Had Mrs Fenn been interviewed within days of the abduction - the matter could have been dealt with and cleared up at that point.
I seldom disagree with Benice, but I do on this occasion, on all except a couple of points. I certainly agree that Mrs Fenn was an honest witness.
She is on record verbatim as stating that she didn't even know the holiday apartment was occupied:
Advanced billing of her interview was about a crime of which she, herself, was a victim, a break-in at her flat.
And Mrs Fenn was actually interviewed on 20 August, nearly 4 months after the crime in the holiday apartment below. That is an extraordinary gap given that she was the person in closest proximity to the crime at the time the crime occurred!
Mrs Fenn's apartment 5a-statement makes (fleeting) reference to the crime of which she, herself, was a victim, right at the end (the last couple of sentences).
I think Mrs Fenn's statement was corrupted.
She was telling the truth when she said, afterwards, that she didn't even know the holiday apartment was occupied.
And the extraordinary gap between the crime at apartment 5a and the interview would be explained if she had nothing very important to say about it.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 12:44:07 PM
Russell stayed in with his daughter who was poorly that night. It could have been his little girl who was crying. Children do cry when they're not feeling well. Jane took his dinner to him. Would she have carried his meal all the way round when it was so much quicker and easier to go in via the patio doors? There was no need for them to be locked that night because Russell was there. More pertinently - would she not also have gone home at the end of the evening via the patio doors - for the same reason?
If so - is it possible it could it have been JT's patio door which Mrs Fenn heard immediately before the child stopped crying?
Mrs Fenn wasn't interviewed until weeks after the 1st May. There is no doubt in my mind that she told the truth, but her memory would not have been as clear as it would have been had she been interviewed as a matter of urgency by the PJ - simply because of her close proximity to the 'scene of the crime'. The fact that she wasn't interviewed at all for weeks was a serious lapse by the PJ IMO.
That also means that no attention at all was given to what Mrs Fenn heard on the 1st May at those first interviews with the McCanns or their friends because the PJ didn't know about it. Had Mrs Fenn been interviewed within days of the abduction - the matter could have been dealt with and cleared up at that point.
The crying started at 10.30pm. Russ would've had his meal by that time. Fenn is saying it's probably Madeleine crying alone i.e. a young child not 2 years or younger.
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 12:49:02 PM
The crying started at 10.30pm. Russ would've had his meal by that time. Fenn is saying it's probably Madeleine crying alone i.e. a young child not 2 years or younger.
Says who?
If you look at the link I give above, you'll see it was from before Mrs Fenn was even interviewed.
How did the PJ know about any crying whatever before they'd even spoken to Mrs Fenn?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 12:51:29 PM
That's from her police statement. Don't believe everything you read in the press lol.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 12:58:41 PM
That's from her police statement. Don't believe everything you read in the press lol.
OK looked at it again.
The leaks were after her (one and only!) interview
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 01:19:09 PM
"Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL 8-)(--) Didn't know the family was in there. She spoke to them from her balcony at 10.30pm on the night Madeleine disappeared. The press write some shite!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 01:21:19 PM
"Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL 8-)(--) Didn't know the family was in there. She was speaking to them from her balcony at 10.30pm on the night Madeleine disappeared. The press write some shite!
Who says she was speaking to them at 10.30?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 01:21:53 PM
"Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL 8-)(--) Didn't know the family was in there. She was speaking to them from her balcony at 10.30pm on the night she disappeared. The press write some shite!
At the time she is supposed to have heard the crying (several days before Madeleine was abducted) she didn't know the family was in there.
Do keep up.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 01:25:09 PM
She did in her statement and Kate said it in her book:
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30. She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search. When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late."
"Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.” (Ian Fenn - son of Pamela)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 01:29:11 PM
Cheers 8((()*/
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2014, 01:33:57 PM
The crying started at 10.30pm. Russ would've had his meal by that time. Fenn is saying it's probably Madeleine crying alone i.e. a young child not 2 years or younger.
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
I'm sure she was an honest witness.
However...
- Wouldn't it have been useful if the police had interviewed her straight away as a potential witness?
- Wouldn't it have been useful to ask her more questions and possibly a reconstruction of the sound she heard to determine where it was actually coming from (the apartment building was 20 years old)?
- The noise came from the floor below. There are several apartments below hers with children.
- Her friend was never interviewed.
- She may well have heard a patio door sliding and it might even have been the McCanns' one. However, there is no mention made of the sound of either gate.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 01:38:52 PM
Was August's official statement her first? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 01:39:48 PM
At the time she is supposed to have heard the crying (several days before Madeleine was abducted) she didn't know the family was in there.
Do keep up.
From her statement again:
"When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence. She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle. She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering. "
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 01:46:10 PM
"When questioned, she said that she never heard any arguments between the couple or with their children. She said that the family would spend much time outside of the apartment and therefore she did not notice their presence. She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle. She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering. "
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 01:51:27 PM
So you believe the press over her actual police statement?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 01:55:30 PM
When it suits 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2014, 02:00:33 PM
Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying, she didn't say she heard Madeleine crying.
One of the Tapas friends was home with his daughter who was ill. I wonder if it was his daughter crying, especially as the child was heard to call 'Daddy'.
Could be he fell asleep.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 02:03:04 PM
Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying, she didn't say she heard Madeleine crying.
One of the Tapas friends was home with his daughter who was ill. I wonder if it was his daughter crying, especially as the child was heard to call 'Daddy'.
Could be he fell asleep.
Incorrect. She said she thought it was Madeleine.
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering"
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 13, 2014, 03:07:43 PM
I for one would really like an answer to this question. Why was Madeleine crying out in distress for an hour and a quarter on the night of 1st May as reported by a neighbour in a nearby apartment? The neighbour was concerned enough about the crying to speak to a friend about it. What was noteworthy was that the crying escalated. This would not be the case if it were a child who was crying him or herself to sleep. The crying then stopped abruptly when the neighbour heard the patio doors of the apartment being opened.
It's strange that Kate McCann did not refer to this incident in her book, do you not think? I would have thought it was quite relevant. You would think that Kate would have wanted to speak with the neighbour to find out if she had seen anything suspicious. Surely in the minutes and hours directly after Madeleine's alleged disappearance the McCann's would have wanted to get as much information from bystanders as possible. Neighbours could hold vital information.
But no.In actual fact, as Kate helpfully records on page 75 of her book Madeleine, an hour after Madeleine is alleged to have gone missing, 'a lady appeared on a balcony......and, in a plummy voice, inquired: 'Can someone tell me what all the noise is about?'
When Kate told her that 'my little girl had been stolen from her bed' the woman's response was 'woefully inadequate and apparently unconcerned'. So much so that Kate and Fiona 'shouted back something rather short and to the point'.
How extraordinary. A potentially important witness appears and their friends and by their insistence that they knew exactly what had happened to their daughter when, in reality, they could not have known exactly what had happened unless they were there when it happened or they were complicit in some way.
They can't have it both ways. They either don't know - in which case abduction would be one possible theory out of many. Or they do know what happened, because either they were in the apartment or they had something to do with it or some prior knowledge.
You raise some excellent points j rob, that hadn't even occured to me before
Why, indeed, have the McCanns never shown concern that the lady upstairs heard a child crying in their apartment on Tuesday night ?
They may think she was mistaken about the length of time she said the child was crying for, ( depending on whether they have been honest about their checking routine ) but why dismiss the relevance of her recollection all together ?
The McCanns made quite a big deal about Madeleine telling them that she had been crying on Wednesday night ... going as far as to say that ( in retrospect ) they think someone may have been in the apartment causing her to wake
Yet they have no such retrospective concerns about what Mrs Fenn says she heard
Why ?
The point made in the op that really struck me, though, was Kate McCanns response to the upstairs neighbour appearing on ther balcony
As you say j rob, here was someone who might be a crucial witness, yet she was sent off with a flea in her ear for being 'woefully inadequate' and having 'a plummy voice'
Kate did not even ask her "Did you see anything ? ... did you hear anything ? ... did you notice anything at all ?
Just dismissed her with a shouted 'short and to the point' remark
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 03:20:19 PM
You raise some excellent points j rob, that hadn't even occured to me before
Why, indeed, have the McCanns never shown concern that the lady upstairs heard a child crying in their apartment on Tuesday night ?
They may think she was mistaken about the length of time she said the child was crying for, ( depending on whether they have been honest about their checking routine ) but why dismiss the relevance of her recollection all together ?
The McCanns made quite a big deal about Madeleine telling them that she had been crying on Wednesday night ... going as far as to say that ( in retrospect ) they think someone may have been in the apartment causing her to wake
Yet they have no such retrospective concerns about what Mrs Fenn says she heard
Why ?
The point made in the op that really struck me, though, was Kate McCanns response to the upstairs neighbour appearing on ther balcony
As you say j rob, here was someone who might be a crucial witness, yet she was sent off with a flea in her ear for being 'woefully inadequate' and having 'a plummy voice'
Kate did not even ask her "Did you see anything ? ... did you hear anything ? ... did you notice anything at all ?
Just dismissed her with a shouted 'short and to the point' remark
There's definitely a reason why they were so uncomfortable when Emma Loach asked them about what they said Madeleine had said to them, Icabod.
They clearly weren't prepared for that question. A very rare occasion.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2014, 03:34:15 PM
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering"
There is no original statement in English and it wasn't verbatim.
How would she have known whether it was Madeleine or not or any other young male or female child at the time? She may well have thought that it could well have been Madeleine as an obvious tragedy had occurred in her apartment building.
I would have done the same... reporting anything I thought might be relevant. However, my recollection might not have been totally accurate, which would have been up to the police to verify. And if I had been in my 80's and a close neighbour, I'd have thought it reasonably important for the police to attempt to verify my recollection as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 03:52:57 PM
Are you saying translators can't do their job? Anything that posters don't like they blame on translation errors. What a cop out! It's in her statement plain and simple. She wouldn't have said it was their daughter if she didn't think it was.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 03:54:04 PM
She did in her statement and Kate said it in her book:
"During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out ?we have let her down? which she repeated several times, quite upset. Mrs Fenn then saw that it was the mother of little Madeleine who was shouting furiously. Upon leaning over the terrace, after having seen the mother, Mrs Fenn asked the father, Gerry, what was happening to which he replied that a small girl had been abducted. When asked, she replied that she did not leave her apartment, just spoke to Gerry from her balcony, which had a view over the terrace of the floor below. She found it strange that Gerry when said that a girl had been abducted, he did not mention that it was his daughter and that he did not mention any other scenarios. At that moment she offered Gerry help, saying that he could use her phone to contact the authorities, to which he replied that this had already been done. It was just after 22.30. She said that after the mothers shouts, she had seen many people in the streets looking for the girl. She also refers to an episode when Gerry was speaking to a policeman and he refused to recognised the police force, saying that more agents of authority were needed to carry out the search. When asked, she replied that on 3rd May she did not hear any noise from the McCann apartment, not even the opening of doors. She also said that before hearing the shouts she was watching television, as she often stays up late."
"Gerry McCann did come up to apologise to my mother for all the unwanted attention – which was incredibly kind as he has endured a grief and pain that no parent should ever have to withstand.” (Ian Fenn - son of Pamela)
Personally I don't believe Gerry said ''A little girl has been abducted. I think he said 'Our little girl has been abducted' An easy mistake for Mrs. Fenn to make in the chaos IMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
Are you saying translators can't do their job? Anything you don't like you blame on translation errors. What a cop out! It's in her statement plain and simple. She wouldn't have said it was their daughter if she didn't think it was.
Certainly a convenient excuse which has been used by some apologists on here recently.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 13, 2014, 03:58:42 PM
We cannot be completely certain that it was Madeleine whom Mrs Fenn heard crying.
Nonetheless, someone was crying that night, for well over an hour - an exceptionally long period of time for a child to be upset. The fact that the crying became increasingly louder over time suggests that the child was alone and not being comforted by a parent.
Even if the child in question was not Madeleine, the fact that a child's loud crying apparently went undetected by the McCanns and all the other members of T9 who were occupying the neighbouring apartments suggests that minimal checking was going on. If the crying was audible enough to have disturbed Mrs Fenn, with her television on (and Mrs F's hearing, at the age of 80 plus, was possibly less than perfect), then surely someone else in T9 should have noticed it walking back and forth on the checks.
As Carana says, it would have been a good idea to have done a reconstruction of the crying to see what would have been audible from where.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 04:14:44 PM
Are you saying translators can't do their job? Anything that posters don't like they blame on translation errors. What a cop out! It's in her statement plain and simple. She wouldn't have said it was their daughter if she didn't think it was.
The statements have been translated more than once. Of course errors can be made. It only needs one word to be even slightly incorrect and it could throw the whole meaning of a sentence. Are you saying translators never make mistakes?
This is why the McCanns paid to have the PJ files professionally translated.
Also some of the statements are not verbatim - and are just summaries made by someone other than the witness. We do not know what questions were asked, or what was left out of the summarized versions.
A statement needs to be verbatim to convey a full and clear meaning to any reader.
Apart from losing their daughter the worst thing the McCanns had to contend with was the language barrier imo.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 04:20:39 PM
Did they hire a translator, Benice?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2014, 04:26:39 PM
We cannot be completely certain that it was Madeleine whom Mrs Fenn heard crying.
Nonetheless, someone was crying that night, for well over an hour - an exceptionally long period of time for a child to be upset. The fact that the crying became increasingly louder over time suggests that the child was alone and not being comforted by a parent.
Even if the child in question was not Madeleine, the fact that a child's loud crying apparently went undetected by the McCanns and all the other members of T9 who were occupying the neighbouring apartments suggests that minimal checking was going on. If the crying was audible enough to have disturbed Mrs Fenn, with her television on (and Mrs F's hearing, at the age of 80 plus, was possibly less than perfect), then surely someone else in T9 should have noticed it walking back and forth on the checks.
As Carana says, it would have been a good idea to have done a reconstruction of the crying to see what would have been audible from where.
Further questioning or a reconstruction might have established whether she heard a single child crying over that entire period.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Cariad on January 13, 2014, 04:30:03 PM
Personally I don't believe Gerry said ''A little girl has been abducted. I think he said 'Our little girl has been abducted' An easy mistake for Mrs. Fenn to make in the chaos IMO.
Personally I believe that he said "our little girl has absconded"
I don't really believe that of course, I was just making the point that we can believe what we like. We should probably take the word of the person there at the time though.
Also, he had two little girls. He would probably have tried to differentiate between the two if he'd been trying to impart information as to who had been abducted.
"My elder daughter has been abducted"
"Our 3 year old has been taken"
For example.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on January 13, 2014, 04:32:16 PM
The Portuguese police did not have any doubts as to where the crying originated...
Gonçalo Amaral book The Truth of the Lie...
Tuesday 1st May,
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45, in the apartment in which she is in the company of her brother and sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until her parents return.
Wednesday 2nd May.
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they had left her to cry the night before, and did not come back immediately.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 13, 2014, 04:38:29 PM
Further questioning or a reconstruction might have established whether she heard a single child crying over that entire period.
Do you mean that the crying could have been Madeleine and the twins together - or two separate instances of crying from children in different apartments?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2014, 04:58:59 PM
Do you mean that the crying could have been Madeleine and the twins together - or two separate instances of crying from children in different apartments?
I have no idea. Neither do the police.
If all three McCann children had been howling at the same time, wouldn't she have noticed the cacophony?
It might have been different children in different apartments and the susceptibility element of a missing child might have made her assume that it was her. Depending on acoustics, and if there were several children in various apartments at that time, one or more may not necessarily have even been on the floor below.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 13, 2014, 05:09:53 PM
If all three McCann children had been howling at the same time, wouldn't she have noticed the cacophony?
It might have been different children in different apartments and the susceptibility element of a missing child might have made her assume that it was her. Depending on acoustics, and if there were several children in various apartments at that time, one or more may not necessarily have even been on the floor below.
I agree with you here Carana, although as John says, Madeleine herself mentioned to her mother that she had been crying.
If Madeleine, and possibly the twins, and possibly another child / children elsewhere in the block had been crying for long periods of time, that would indeed have constituted a lot of noise.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 05:11:32 PM
The Portuguese police did not have any doubts as to where the crying originated...
Gonçalo Amaral book The Truth of the Lie...
Tuesday 1st May,
For an hour and a quarter, between 10.30 and 11.45, in the apartment in which she is in the company of her brother and sister, Madeleine does not stop crying and calling out for her father. She does not calm down until her parents return.
Wednesday 2nd May.
At breakfast, Madeleine asks her parents why they had left her to cry the night before, and did nit come back immediately.
IIRC Mrs Fenn doesn't mention a child's name in her statement.
Notice how he changes the date from the 3rd to the 2nd to make it seem as if Madeleine asked her parents the very next morning - instead of 2 days later. He also changes what Madeleine asked her parents by leaving out Sean's name. That blatent deception is to fit in with Mrs. Fenn only hearing ONE child crying.
So much for his book being true to the files.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
So you believepress over her actual police statement?
Of course not!
Perish the very suggestion that a police force that could leak a lie as vicious as Gerry not Madeleine's father might fiddle with witness statements.
For the record, I don't believe for a moment that Charlotte Pennington said anything about Madeleine being routinely referred to as "Maddie" (for example).
I'm also highly suspicious of one aspect of Martin Smith's apparent statement.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2014, 05:21:09 PM
Were any other occupants of that building interviewed?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 05:22:02 PM
Perish the very suggestion that a police force that could leak a lie as vicious as Gerry not Madeleine's father might fiddle with witness statements.
For the record, I don't believe for a moment that Charlotte Pennington said anything about Madeleine being routinely referred to as "Maddie" (for example).
I'm also highly suspicious of one aspect of Martin Smith's apparent statement.
IIRC Mrs Fenn doesn't mention a child's name in her statement.
Notice how he changes the date from the 3rd to the 2nd to make it seem as if Madeleine asked her parents the very next morning - instead of 2 days later. He also changes what Madeleine asked her parents by leaving out Sean's name. That blatent deception is to fit in with Mrs. Fenn only hearing ONE child crying.
So much for his book being true to the files.
Who said it was two days later?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 13, 2014, 05:28:31 PM
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2014, 06:02:56 PM
Interesting how there is always someone along to deny anything and everything.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 06:04:49 PM
Nobody needed to fake a friends reunited page. Maddie was heard being shouted on the night - an independent witness told the crèche. It's like Kate calling Sean Seany. It's a very scouse thing. Many names are shortened e.g. Gerald to Gerry.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
Nobody needed to fake a friends reunited page. Maddie was heard being shouted on the night - an independent witness told the crèche. It's like Kate calling Sean Seany. It's a very scouse thing. Many names are shortened e.g. Gerald to Gerry.
Needing and choosing are quite different things, I agree ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 06:28:49 PM
Have you ever wondered where the Gerry not Madeleine's father canard came from?
Read this exchange between Amaral and the Portuguese forensic laboratory:
Letter to the National Forensics Institute (INML) from Goncalo Amaral
17th August 2007
The present inquiry is in relation to the investigation of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May from P da L.
The English authorities in possession of elements collected from the family home in Leicestershire, which are being examined in an unidentified laboratory, traced the girl's DNA profile, in annex to this document.
As it is necessary to the investigation we request the following:
1. Whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established?
2. In the case of a positive answer to point 1, that it should be determined whether the girl is the daughter of the parents identified ? Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.
3. Information about whether the profile obtained by the INML corresponds to the profile traced in the English laboratory, on the request of the British authorities.
4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.
5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.
6. Other information that might be of use to the investigation.
Signed G. Amaral
09-Processos Vol IX Page 2419
Vol IX Page 2419
Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral
22-08-2007
And the bewildered response of the forensic laboratory:
Reply to Queries
- We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.
- Samples were studied - hair and a piece of cloth - nuclear DNA profiles only being obtained from 4 samples, which upon comparison with the DNA profiles of Kate and Gerry, could not belong to the girl.
- The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.
- As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.
- The comparison of the profiles obtained in autossomic STR from Kate and Gerry McCann with the profile obtained was carried out.
The forensic laboratory didn't have a clue, and frankly said so.
Very soon afterwards, the pernicious lie hit the headlines ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 13, 2014, 07:15:02 PM
What I find baffling about Kate McCann's accounts of what happened is that, it seems to me, that in an attempt to set up a theory, she succeeds in shooting herself and the theory in the foot.
The crying incident is a good example. Kate records in her book that the morning of Madeleine's alleged abduction, she asks her parents why they did not come when Sean and she cried last night.
This question somewhat inexplicably puzzles Kate. Why does it puzzle her? They have chosen to dine out of ear-shot of their children therefore it stands to reason that if they children cry they will not hear them and will not come to them. And there is no earthly reason to expect children of that age to never wake up at night.
She then muddies the already murky waters by asking whether the crying was at bath time.......but if the crying was at bath time we would hope that one or other of the parents were there (let's just hope it wasn't David Payne doing bath-duty). Leaving two year olds unattended in the bath is not what is known as reponsible parenting.
She goes on to ask whether the crying was around bedtime with a rather pointless little explanation of how children often get fractious around bedtime. Again, if it was around the time the children were put to bed, then one would hope that a parent would be there to ensure that they go to sleep.
We then get another rather pointless and irrelevant piece of information: 'it certainly wasn't during the early hours because I had been in the room with them, even closer than usual.'
No Kate - stop playing with smoke and mirrors and fudging the issue. Presumably the crying would have been when you were dining and when the parents were not in the apartment.
However, she glibly covers this base with the flippant remark: 'Could Madeleine and Sean have worken up while we were at dinner?'
Errr - yes.....top marks for forensics!!
'If so it was worrying but didn't seem probable'. Why would that be? Why would that be improbable - okay, explanation: ' they rarely stir at night and hardly ever (emphasized) before the early hours. Whether or not this is true, I do not know. However in a strange place you would not expect children to behave in the same way that they do at home. I remember holidays with two year olds - they were often quite unsettled to be in a strange environment.
Having laid the ground work with this strangely illogical account, Kate then offers the reader her own version of events. We are invited to conclude that the reason for the crying was for an altogether more sinister reason than that of being left alone at night without their parents (and that is already a bit sinister). Namely that someone had entered the apartment with a view to abduction. A large brown stain on Madeleine's pajamas is also mentioned, to sow the seed that the abductor may have tried to drug them that night and on the subsequent night when Madeleine allegedly disappeared.
On the following page (64) another seed is sown - the subject of paedophilia is mentioned. There is an account of a somewhat inappropriate exchange between the McCanns and a man who is videoing his 3 year old daughter playing tennis. 'He looked embarrassed.......filming in this way made him feel like a dirty old man.'
I'm sorry but that is a very strange conversation - very strange indeed. Again, if true, this is faintly disturbing. Why would anyone find this subject funny?
Anyway, I digress. The point is that the padophile abduction theory has been developed. And the seed had been sown that the children may have been drugged by the abductor. I have my own views on why the McCanns chose to promote a drugging theory. But, once again, having promoted this idea, they then shoot themselves in the foot.
IF Kate and Gerry genuinely felt that the children had been drugged, why on earth did they not insist on toxicology tests? They are doctors for heaven's sake! This would have given crucial information. But no, everyone just traipses around the apartment while the twins lie as if in a coma. At least Kate checks their breathing from time to time I suppose.
To complete the abduction theory, Kate then writes about Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. It was convenient that Jane Tanner happened to be in the right place at the right time -spotting the 'abductor'. We are told that as soon as Tanner heard about the disappearance 'everything fell into place and she felt sick'.
How extraordinarily convenient! So there we have it. The story as told by the McCanns and their friends.
Quite frankly I can see why the Portuguese police was less than impressed with it. It's got more holes in it than a colander and is actually an insult to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2014, 07:25:24 PM
Perish the very suggestion that a police force that could leak a lie as vicious as Gerry not Madeleine's father might fiddle with witness statements.
For the record, I don't believe for a moment that Charlotte Pennington said anything about Madeleine being routinely referred to as "Maddie" (for example).
I'm also highly suspicious of one aspect of Martin Smith's apparent statement.
You are highly suspicious ?? @)(++(* @)(++(*
Just who the hell do you think you are ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Estuarine on January 13, 2014, 07:49:27 PM
What I find baffling about Kate McCann's accounts of what happened is that, it seems to me, that in an attempt to set up a theory, she succeeds in shooting herself and the theory in the foot.
The crying incident is a good example. Kate records in her book that the morning of Madeleine's alleged abduction, she asks her parents why they did not come when Sean and she cried last night.
This question somewhat inexplicably puzzles Kate. Why does it puzzle her? They have chosen to dine out of ear-shot of their children therefore it stands to reason that if they children cry they will not hear them and will not come to them. And there is no earthly reason to expect children of that age to never wake up at night.
She then muddies the already murky waters by asking whether the crying was at bath time.......but if the crying was at bath time we would hope that one or other of the parents were there (let's just hope it wasn't David Payne doing bath-duty). Leaving two year olds unattended in the bath is not what is known as reponsible parenting.
She goes on to ask whether the crying was around bedtime with a rather pointless little explanation of how children often get fractious around bedtime. Again, if it was around the time the children were put to bed, then one would hope that a parent would be there to ensure that they go to sleep.
We then get another rather pointless and irrelevant piece of information: 'it certainly wasn't during the early hours because I had been in the room with them, even closer than usual.'
No Kate - stop playing with smoke and mirrors and fudging the issue. Presumably the crying would have been when you were dining and when the parents were not in the apartment.
However, she glibly covers this base with the flippant remark: 'Could Madeleine and Sean have worken up while we were at dinner?'
Errr - yes.....top marks for forensics!!
'If so it was worrying but didn't seem probable'. Why would that be? Why would that be improbable - okay, explanation: ' they rarely stir at night and hardly ever (emphasized) before the early hours. Whether or not this is true, I do not know. However in a strange place you would not expect children to behave in the same way that they do at home. I remember holidays with two year olds - they were often quite unsettled to be in a strange environment.
Having laid the ground work with this strangely illogical account, Kate then offers the reader her own version of events. We are invited to conclude that the reason for the crying was for an altogether more sinister reason than that of being left alone at night without their parents (and that is already a bit sinister). Namely that someone had entered the apartment with a view to abduction. A large brown stain on Madeleine's pajamas is also mentioned, to sow the seed that the abductor may have tried to drug them that night and on the subsequent night when Madeleine allegedly disappeared.
On the following page (64) another seed is sown - the subject of paedophilia is mentioned. There is an account of a somewhat inappropriate exchange between the McCanns and a man who is videoing his 3 year old daughter playing tennis. 'He looked embarrassed.......filming in this way made him feel like a dirty old man.'
I'm sorry but that is a very strange conversation - very strange indeed. Again, if true, this is faintly disturbing. Why would anyone find this subject funny?
Anyway, I digress. The point is that the padophile abduction theory has been developed. And the seed had been sown that the children may have been drugged by the abductor. I have my own views on why the McCanns chose to promote a drugging theory. But, once again, having promoted this idea, they then shoot themselves in the foot.
IF Kate and Gerry genuinely felt that the children had been drugged, why on earth did they not insist on toxicology tests? They are doctors for heaven's sake! This would have given crucial information. But no, everyone just traipses around the apartment while the twins lie as if in a coma. At least Kate checks their breathing from time to time I suppose.
To complete the abduction theory, Kate then writes about Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. It was convenient that Jane Tanner happened to be in the right place at the right time -spotting the 'abductor'. We are told that as soon as Tanner heard about the disappearance 'everything fell into place and she felt sick'.
How extraordinarily convenient! So there we have it. The story as told by the McCanns and their friends.
Quite frankly I can see why the Portuguese police was less than impressed with it. It's got more holes in it than a colander and is actually an insult to Madeleine.
I wouldn't rule out Jane Tanner telling a tall story as a random event that was grabbed with both hands. She is alleged to have become humpy with the PJ because they thought she was a fantasist. Romancers often help and hinder in police investigations. Like the woman in the Soham murders who claimed to have seen the girls in a village about 7k to the west. Pissed off the police immeasurably when they found out. My biased view is in not knowing 7 people who would cover up for me.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 07:55:46 PM
What I find baffling about Kate McCann's accounts of what happened is that, it seems to me, that in an attempt to set up a theory, she succeeds in shooting herself and the theory in the foot.
The crying incident is a good example. Kate records in her book that the morning of Madeleine's alleged abduction, she asks her parents why they did not come when Sean and she cried last night.
This question somewhat inexplicably puzzles Kate. Why does it puzzle her? They have chosen to dine out of ear-shot of their children therefore it stands to reason that if they children cry they will not hear them and will not come to them. And there is no earthly reason to expect children of that age to never wake up at night.
She then muddies the already murky waters by asking whether the crying was at bath time.......but if the crying was at bath time we would hope that one or other of the parents were there (let's just hope it wasn't David Payne doing bath-duty). Leaving two year olds unattended in the bath is not what is known as reponsible parenting.
She goes on to ask whether the crying was around bedtime with a rather pointless little explanation of how children often get fractious around bedtime. Again, if it was around the time the children were put to bed, then one would hope that a parent would be there to ensure that they go to sleep.
We then get another rather pointless and irrelevant piece of information: 'it certainly wasn't during the early hours because I had been in the room with them, even closer than usual.'
No Kate - stop playing with smoke and mirrors and fudging the issue. Presumably the crying would have been when you were dining and when the parents were not in the apartment.
However, she glibly covers this base with the flippant remark: 'Could Madeleine and Sean have worken up while we were at dinner?'
Errr - yes.....top marks for forensics!!
'If so it was worrying but didn't seem probable'. Why would that be? Why would that be improbable - okay, explanation: ' they rarely stir at night and hardly ever (emphasized) before the early hours. Whether or not this is true, I do not know. However in a strange place you would not expect children to behave in the same way that they do at home. I remember holidays with two year olds - they were often quite unsettled to be in a strange environment.
Having laid the ground work with this strangely illogical account, Kate then offers the reader her own version of events. We are invited to conclude that the reason for the crying was for an altogether more sinister reason than that of being left alone at night without their parents (and that is already a bit sinister). Namely that someone had entered the apartment with a view to abduction. A large brown stain on Madeleine's pajamas is also mentioned, to sow the seed that the abductor may have tried to drug them that night and on the subsequent night when Madeleine allegedly disappeared.
On the following page (64) another seed is sown - the subject of paedophilia is mentioned. There is an account of a somewhat inappropriate exchange between the McCanns and a man who is videoing his 3 year old daughter playing tennis. 'He looked embarrassed.......filming in this way made him feel like a dirty old man.'
I'm sorry but that is a very strange conversation - very strange indeed. Again, if true, this is faintly disturbing. Why would anyone find this subject funny?
Anyway, I digress. The point is that the padophile abduction theory has been developed. And the seed had been sown that the children may have been drugged by the abductor. I have my own views on why the McCanns chose to promote a drugging theory. But, once again, having promoted this idea, they then shoot themselves in the foot.
IF Kate and Gerry genuinely felt that the children had been drugged, why on earth did they not insist on toxicology tests? They are doctors for heaven's sake! This would have given crucial information. But no, everyone just traipses around the apartment while the twins lie as if in a coma. At least Kate checks their breathing from time to time I suppose.
To complete the abduction theory, Kate then writes about Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. It was convenient that Jane Tanner happened to be in the right place at the right time -spotting the 'abductor'. We are told that as soon as Tanner heard about the disappearance 'everything fell into place and she felt sick'.
How extraordinarily convenient! So there we have it. The story as told by the McCanns and their friends.
Quite frankly I can see why the Portuguese police was less than impressed with it. It's got more holes in it than a colander and is actually an insult to Madeleine.
The first people to say anything about Madeleine crying (way before they were declared arguidos) were Kate and Gerry, to the PJ, in police interviews, in an attempt to be helpful.
Look how their honesty was rewarded ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2014, 08:13:43 PM
The first people to say anything about Madeleine crying (way before they were declared arguidos) were Kate and Gerry, to the PJ, in police interviews, in an attempt to be helpful.
Look how their honesty was rewarded ...
Rubbish.
You do not know they told the truth, do you ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 08:21:06 PM
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal.
Gerry McCann, 10 May.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 08:27:34 PM
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal.
Gerry McCann, 10 May.
Yes but did this incident actually happen on the 2nd and not the 3rd? To promote an abductor theory it sounds better by changing it to the 3rd. From Fenn's statement the crying episode happened on the 1st so Madeleine would have said this on the morning of the 2nd.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 13, 2014, 08:29:13 PM
The first people to say anything about Madeleine crying (way before they were declared arguidos) were Kate and Gerry, to the PJ, in police interviews, in an attempt to be helpful.
Look how their honesty was rewarded ...
Oh dear!!! Oh what tangled webs we weave.........
And what 'rewards' exactly do the McCanns feel entitled to?
What about Madeleine - what do you think she deserves?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 08:32:55 PM
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal.
Gerry McCann, 10 May.
Well, I will agree on one thing......it is a very strange thing for a nearly 4 year old to say.......just wondering what evidence there is that Madeleine actually said it? I mean, it is possible that it is one of those myths put about...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2014, 08:39:12 PM
The day MADELEINE disappeared, Thursday, 3 May 2007, they all woke up at the same time between 07H30 and 08H00. While they were taking breakfast MADELEINE addressed the mother and asked her ?why didn't you come last night when S*** and I were crying??. That he thought this comment very strange given that MADELEINE had never had this kind of talk [had never spoken like this] and, the night before, they had maintained the same system of checking on the children, not having detected anything abnormal.
Gerry McCann, 10 May.
Now tell me ferryman, now what was it when gerry mccann, stated to the effect, that no one out there now knows what are lies and what are the truths.
Thanks gerry. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 13, 2014, 08:41:17 PM
I take it you approve of the McCanns' honesty being manipulated and twisted against them?
And you presumably don't lament (as I do!) that the old cliche just tell the truth and all will be well is laid bare as false by these developments?
My concern is for Madeleine, not her parents. Unfortunately, I fear it is too late to help Madeleine.
Since you mention the truth...yes, in general, the truth will out. It might take some time but one hopes that justice will eventually prevail for those whose voices cannot be heard.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 13, 2014, 08:50:16 PM
Then of course, amongst others, gerry mccanns lies when questioned about a trip to Portugal, and denying repeatedly it was in pursuance of legal action against Amaral.
Nice.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 13, 2014, 09:47:38 PM
The arrogance of some people is quite extraordinary. They think that they can operate above the law. And they manage it for a bit. But eventually their lack of integrity.....their shallowness... narcissism........just makes them look unbelievably..........pathetic, really.......
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 13, 2014, 09:55:03 PM
And what 'rewards' exactly do the McCanns feel entitled to?
What about Madeleine - what do you think she deserves?
Oh , hang on, I will answer my own question! The reward of playing 'victim'; enlisting public money....I cannot go on because it is all so hideous, nasty and downright ......awful......
Madeleine, RIP.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 13, 2014, 09:57:58 PM
Unfortunately, I fear it is too late to help Madeleine.
That'll be why you are so eager to declare Madeleine "dead".
Should Kerry Needham be doing the same about Ben?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 13, 2014, 10:17:56 PM
Cant believe some of this thread, just some observations, dont want any answers to any questions....
There have been lots of threads on this, all going round in in circles, nothing anyone can agree on much, but these are the facts
Mrs Fenn made a statement (ignore Ferrymans accusations of it being doctored, this is not bloody Hillsborough, and also his attempts to make out she didnt say half the thngs she did LOL basing his evidence on "snippet out of context alledged quotes from a rag", wont go into his weasel off topic lies about the dna about madeleines parentage)
She was sure the crying was coming from the flat directly below. There is no evidence she was hard of hearing, indeed, she may have had a hearing aid if one wants to "speculate"
The child could not have been the Paynes as they had a baby monitor! Flat directly to right of Mrs Fenn
Obrien and Tanner lived three doors to the right of Mrs Fenn on the lower ground below her level
Ignoring issues of whether his (Obriens while he was at home that night) ill child was crying for over an hour and he may have fallen asleep as suggested and not heard them or couldnt stop the crying,(and Lace made a point if Obrien was home his ill daughter would be crying daddy daddy as Mrs Fenn said) would that distance really be realistic? Compared to Mrs Fenn being SURE it was from directly below?
Flat to the right of Mrs Fenn and on the l ower level, the Oldfields, next door to Mccanns, well if it was their kids, then that means they werent checked all that time! Same goes for if it was Madeleine obviously
See map on page one of this thread for layouts
Now, how far does anyone want to stretch, "it was from the flat directly below" To say perhaps three, four, five or more flats away? Or a few on top and to the side? Acoustics vary that much in distance? Someone crying at a distance of 30 metres sounds exactly the same as somene cryng a few metres? or someones patio door directly below you sound the same as one 3 flats away?
As for not interviewing Mrs Fenn for months, no ones knows the answer, we can speculate, maybe that reports of crying children were not suspicious in themselves. I also find the suggestion that the PJ after taking Mrs Fenns statement should have gone and interviewed all the occupants of all the other flats in the block just to ask was it your kid by any chance that was cryng on Tuesday night totally ludicrous!
Links to specific merrygorounds, discussed in other threads too...do read, its enlightening
@j.rob you have made some very interesting and pertinent points, on the thread, thank you
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 13, 2014, 11:10:08 PM
Hi Buzz, it was definitely Tuesday night Rusell was not at the Tapas Bar, as he wasnt there on the quiz night which was Tuesday..... Forget meanderings in their rogatory statements which went from one day to another, this one is clear That means Russell didnt get home to find a distressd child as he was there all night and I dont believe he was conked out and didnt hear them crying for over an hour...that leaves the Mccanns...then again, it also points to the Oldfields not doing any checks as they would have heard....and Tanner did no check as Russell was in Does your head in doesnt it. re deception, oh, most definitely.....without a doubt
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 11:13:21 PM
The first people to say anything about Madeleine crying (way before they were declared arguidos) were Kate and Gerry, to the PJ, in police interviews, in an attempt to be helpful.
Look how their honesty was rewarded ...
Indeed. If they were the liars some people think they are - they could have said Madeleine told them she had a dream about a nasty man in her room or something similar. They were going over every little detail trying to make sense of what had happened and so stuff that would not normally seem important took on a different perspective. Even though telling the police the truth put them in bad light - they still did it in case it was something to do with the abductor.
And if they had disposed of her body , they definitely would not have said anything that put themselves in a bad light when it would have just as easy to lie as I've mentioned above - and still get the same message across - in fact it would have been an even more convincing message that someone may have been in the apartment the night before. They were not stupid people.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 11:20:14 PM
Indeed. If they were the liars some people think they are - they could have said Madeleine told them she had a dream about a nasty man in her room or something similar. They were going over every little detail trying to make sense of what had happened and so stuff that would not normally seem important took on a different perspective. Even though telling the police the truth put them in bad light - they still did it in case it was something to do with the abductor.
And if they had disposed of her body , they definitely would not have said anything that put themselves in a bad light when it would have just as easy to lie as I've mentioned above - and still get the same message across - in fact it would have been an even more convincing message that someone may have been in the apartment the night before. They were not stupid people.
Some confused thinking there - your 2nd paragraph sort of negates your first.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 11:22:37 PM
According to the files Mrs Fenn heard a child crying on the 1st May. Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when she and Sean cried on the 3rd May.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 13, 2014, 11:23:47 PM
According to the files Mrs Fenn heard a child crying on the 1st May. Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when she and Sean cried on the 3rd May.
And what if she actually said it on the 2nd?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 13, 2014, 11:24:35 PM
Indeed. If they were the liars some people think they are - they could have said Madeleine told them she had a dream about a nasty man in her room or something similar.
...and then left her alone the next night... 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 13, 2014, 11:25:10 PM
Oh dear, oh dear........
...oh dear.....
Now, lets talk about people who lie.....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 11:32:06 PM
Indeed. If they were the liars some people think they are - they could have said Madeleine told them she had a dream about a nasty man in her room or something similar. They were going over every little detail trying to make sense of what had happened and so stuff that would not normally seem important took on a different perspective. Even though telling the police the truth put them in bad light - they still did it in case it was something to do with the abductor.
And if they had disposed of her body , they definitely would not have said anything that put themselves in a bad light when it would have just as easy to lie as I've mentioned above - and still get the same message across - in fact it would have been an even more convincing message that someone may have been in the apartment the night before. They were not stupid people.
Oh , interesting.....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 13, 2014, 11:33:07 PM
So which person lied about the 1st May? Someone has to have lied. It's either Mrs Fenn who corroborates her story with her friend or one of the parents. Who lied?
Why does anyone have to lie? Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the 1st May. No-one claimed anything happened on the 2nd May - and on the 3rd May Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when she and Sean cried. On the evening of the 3rd May Kate mentioned what Madeleine had said to her that morning to Fiona(?) during dinner.
Just because that doesn't fit in with some people's preferred 'dates' doesn't make it untrue.
If Madeleine and Sean did cry on the 2nd - then it couldn't have been for long because Rachael Oldfield was next door all evening and would have heard them.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 13, 2014, 11:53:17 PM
Why does anyone have to lie? Mrs. Fenn said she heard a child crying on the 1st May. No-one claimed anything happened on the 2nd May - and on the 3rd May Madeleine asked her parents why they didn't come when she and Sean cried. On the evening of the 3rd May Kate mentioned what Madeleine had said to her that morning to Fiona(?) during dinner.
Just because that doesn't fit in with some people's preferred 'dates' doesn't make it untrue.
If Madeleine and Sean did cry on the 2nd - then it couldn't have been for long because Rachael Oldfield was next door all evening and would have heard them.
Yes which makes it more than likely that Madeleine said this on the morning of the 2nd. Why did Kate mention the crying episode on the night of the 3rd at the tapas? Why did she also mention being concerned about the unlocked patio door that night as well as it had been unlocked on previous nights. Things the make you go hmmm >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 12:00:59 AM
. On the evening of the 3rd May Kate mentioned what Madeleine had said to her that morning to Fiona(?) during dinner.
Why did she do that? oh and btw it wasnt only to Fiona, it was to Rachel and Jane too.....if she said that that comment by Madeleine would " never have crossed her mind again" if she hadnt been abducted.....???? But it did Benice, so... ???? Answer that one
from 2.10
But you need to listen from abut a minute in
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 12:02:05 AM
Why did she do that? oh and btw it wasnt only to Fiona, it was to Rachel and Jane too.....if she said that that comment by Madeleine would " never have crossed her mind again" if she hadnt been abducted.....???? But it did Benice, so... ???? Answer that one
from 2.10
But you need to listen from abut a minute in
Now you've got Gerry gulping again 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 12:13:03 AM
You've lost me Red. I haven't accused anyone of making anything up.
You said rachel being next door on may 2nd (the night kate says madeleine said she and sean were crying) would have heard two child crying....so if she didnt was madeleine or kate lyng....which was your suggestion...oh never mind though
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 12:17:57 AM
I think Benice has legged it Red 8(>((
The question was too tricky!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 14, 2014, 12:21:06 AM
Why did she do that? oh and btw it wasnt only to Fiona, it was to Rachel and Jane too.....if she said that that comment by Madeleine would " never have crossed her mind again" if she hadnt been abducted.....???? But it did Benice, so... ???? Answer that one
from 2.10
But you need to listen from abut a minute in
That's an excellent point Red. "It wouldn't have passed through my head again" - but it did as she said it at the tapas bar on the 3rd. All these important things are said just before Madeleine is reported to be missing. Nobody can ignore this and the many other contradictions.
Rachael would've heard Madeleine crying if it was on the 2nd being next door. Fenn was correct that it was on the 1st that the crying incident happened.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 12:23:46 AM
That's an excellent point Red. "It wouldn't have passed through my head again" - but it did as she said it at the tapas bar on the 3rd. All these important things are said just before Madeleine is reported to be missing. Nobody can ignore this and the many other contradictions.
Rachael would've heard Madeleine crying if it was on the 2nd being next door. Fenn was correct that it was on the 1st that the crying incident happened.
Thats a good point pathfinder......
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
You said rachel being next door on may 2nd (the night kate says madeleine said she and sean were crying) would have heard two child crying....so if she didnt was madeleine or kate lyng....which was your suggestion...oh never mind though
I didn't say anyone was lying. No-body knows for sure what Madeleine was talking about - because she moved off as soon as she'd said it and was totally unconcerned.
I repeat if Madeleine - or Madeleine and Sean had cried the night before, then it couldn't have been for long because Rachael would have heard them.
So maybe they did cry for a few minutes. Or maybe they didn't. Or maybe Madeleine was talking about a completely different time, or maybe she dreamed it. No-body can say for sure because they never got to the bottom of it.
It has nothing to do with anyone lying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 12:37:02 AM
I didn't say anyone was lying. No-body knows for sure what Madeleine was talking about - because she moved off as soon as she'd said it and was totally unconcerned.
I repeat if Madeleine - or Madeleine and Sean had cried the night before, then it couldn't have been for long because Rachael would have heard them.
So maybe they did cry for a few minutes. Or maybe they didn't. Or maybe Madeleine was talking about a completely different time, or maybe she dreamed it. No-body can say for sure because they never got to the bottom of it.
It has nothing to do with anyone lying.
I agree she dreamed it, probably what it all was
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 12:46:08 AM
IMO Kate was saying that if Madeleine had not been abducted on the 3rd May if would not have come into her mind again after that date - and why would it?
Picking over every syllable of every word the McCanns ever uttered is unfair IMO. Conversations bear no resemblance to the written word. But their conversations are treated and criticised as it they ARE the written word.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 12:51:58 AM
IMO Kate was saying that if Madeleine had not been abducted on the 3rd May if would not have come into her mind again after that date - and why would it?
Picking over every syllable of every word the McCanns ever uttered is unfair IMO. Conversations bear no resemblance to the written word. But their conversations are treated and criticised as it they ARE the written word.
But according to the rogatory interviews she did mention it before the disappearance was discovered during the meal >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 12:56:01 AM
IMO Kate was saying that if Madeleine had not been abducted on the 3rd May if would not have come into her mind again after that date - and why would it?
Picking over every syllable of every word the McCanns ever uttered is unfair IMO. Conversations bear no resemblance to the written word. But their conversations are treated and criticised as it they ARE the written word.
Stop spinning
She definitely said if madeleine had not been abducted, that thought wouldnt have crossed her mind, it was mentiioned IE BEFORE she was abducted Benice, ie early on in dinner May 3rdM ie BEFORE not AFTER. Jesus.see ya
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 14, 2014, 01:02:48 AM
IMO Kate was saying that if Madeleine had not been abducted on the 3rd May if would not have come into her mind again after that date - and why would it?
Picking over every syllable of every word the McCanns ever uttered is unfair IMO. Conversations bear no resemblance to the written word. But their conversations are treated and criticised as it they ARE the written word.
This makes perfect sense to me. Kate remembered the conversation with Madeleine because it took place during the last few hours they spent in each others' company, and because she was under scrutiny in police and other interviews. She would have been going through all the events of the holiday in her mind and trying to make some kind of sense of them.
There would have been much less reason ever to recall that conversation otherwise.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 01:08:58 AM
But according to the rogatory interviews she did mention it before the disappearance was discovered during the meal >@@(*&)
Read my post again. I said she would not have thought of it again after the day that Madeleine was abducted. She spoke of it during dinner before Madeleine was abducted.
Madeleine spoke to her on the morning of the 3rd. Kate mentioned it during dinner that evening. If she had not been abducted later that night then they would just have continued with their holiday and KM would not have given it another thought - because she would have had no reason to. It was Madeleine's abduction which gave her the reason to go back over everything that had happened on the 3rd which included what Madeleine had said on that morning.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 14, 2014, 01:16:08 AM
This makes perfect sense to me. Kate remembered the conversation with Madeleine because it took place during the last few hours they spent in each others' company, and because she was under scrutiny in police and other interviews. She would have been going through all the events of the holiday in her mind and trying to make some kind of sense of them.
There would have been much less reason ever to recall that conversation otherwise.
It would 'make perfect sense' if Kate remembered that conversation she claims to have had with Madeleine because she was 'under scrutiny' in police and other interviews,, and she was going through all events of the holiday in her mind and trying to make some kind of sense of them
That's not what happened though
She sat down at the table and almost immediately related that conversation with her friends
While she was doing so, according to her version of events, Madeleine was safely tucked up in bed
... No duress ... no stress ... no scrutiny ... no reason to be going through the event in her mind
She brought up the subject voluntarily and without prompting ... the subject she claims would never have entered her head at all if Madeleine had not been 'abducted'
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 01:16:39 AM
Read my post again. I said she would not have thought of it again after the day that Madeleine was abducted. She spoke of it during dinner before Madeleine was abducted.
Madeleine spoke to her on the morning of the 3rd. Kate mentioned it during dinner that evening. If she had not been abducted later that night then they would just have continued with their holiday and KM would not have given it another thought - because she would have had no reason to. It was Madeleine's abduction which gave her the reason to go back over everything that had happened on the 3rd which included what Madeleine had said on that morning.
"If what happened hadn't happened that comment would never have passed through my head again" - K McCann's comment in the video Red posted on the previous page.
But it did because she mentioned it during the meal (according to the rogatory interviews). Why?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 01:20:34 AM
Read my post again. I said she would not have thought of it again after the day that Madeleine was abducted. She spoke of it during dinner before Madeleine was abducted.
Madeleine spoke to her on the morning of the 3rd. Kate mentioned it during dinner that evening. If she had not been abducted later that night then they would just have continued with their holiday and KM would not have given it another thought - because she would have had no reason to. It was Madeleine's abduction which gave her the reason to go back over everything that had happened on the 3rd which included what Madeleine had said on that morning.
Youre so totally wrong
IF what happened hadnt happened, kate says, ie the abduction, which she didnt now know about till ten that night, then that comment from madeleine would never had passed her mind again..ONLY IT DID BEFORE she found out Madeleine was missing as she SPOKE Bout if BEFORE "IT" happened to all her mates...stop spinning benice.......its getting boring
... moderated out irrelevant ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 01:32:10 AM
"If what happened hadn't happened that comment would never have passed through my head again" - K McCann's comment in the video Red posted on the previous page.
But it did because she mentioned it during the meal (according to the rogatory interviews). Why?
She was explaining about what happened when Madeleine spoke to them on that morning - that's all. Her comment was to explain why it didn't seem cause for serious concern at that time.
She was summarising - she was not in the witness box being asked to go over ever aspect of it, including what she said at dinner about it. Just because she didn't mention her later convo later that evening - doesn't make her a liar. It just means she didn't think it was necessary to bring that into that particular conversation.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 01:42:28 AM
Only it DID cross her mind and very seriously (apparently) as she chose to speak of her "concerns" to three of her girl mates....that night BEFore it happened Benice, stop twisting, tara now......
and you can cry how rude how rude a millin times dont change facts! Or your ridiculous in denial posts
8((()*/
See ya
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 14, 2014, 01:44:28 AM
It would 'make perfect sense' if Kate remembered that conversation she claims to have had with Madeleine because she was 'under scrutiny' in police and other interviews,, and she was going through all events of the holiday in her mind and trying to make some kind of sense of them
That's not what happened though
She sat down at the table and almost immediately related that conversation with her friends
While she was doing so, according to her version of events, Madeleine was safely tucked up in bed
... No duress ... no stress ... no scrutiny ... no reason to be going through the event in her mind
She brought up the subject voluntarily and without prompting ... the subject she claims would never have entered her head at all if Madeleine had not been 'abducted'
Yes I have just been re-reading things and I seem to have got this mixed up.
But even though she mentioned this conversation at the table, she has brought it up several times publicly as a hint that there could have been someone in the apartment prior to 3rd (as mentioned earlier in this thread).
I understand the importance of going over every detail and placing things correctly in the timeline. Our understanding of the situation can change profoundly according to the alteration of one tiny detail.
I think that it is worth remembering in general terms, however, that much of what Kate McCann has written and said is a result of her reviewing things in her mind. Her words written and spoken are highly discursive in style.
In my opinion this exercise - if not her comments at the table - can be explained quite easily by saying that she was looking for things which may have helped her understand what happened to Madeleine. There is nothing odd about this at all, and nothing in this process to suggest lies.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 01:49:24 AM
She was explaining about what happened when Madeleine spoke to them on that morning - that's all. Her comment was to explain why it didn't seem cause for serious concern at that time.
She was summarising - she was not in the witness box being asked to go over ever aspect of it, including what she said at dinner about it. Just because she didn't mention her later convo later that evening - doesn't make her a liar. It just means she didn't think it was necessary to bring that into that particular conversation.
I'd never use the word liar, Benice. I won't use it because I can't know what has been motivating them over the years, but they have consistently spun - and this issue of Madeleine's comment is one such occasion. You'd so easily be able to avoid having to spin yourself if you just agreed that they have done. The reason why they have (and continue to do imo) is of course not known for certain. By anybody.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 01:50:09 AM
Only it DID cross her mind and very seriously (apparently) as she chose to speak of her "concerns" to three of her girl mates....that night BEFore it happened Benice, stop twisting, tara now......
and you can cry how rude how rude a millin times dont change facts! Or your ridiculous in denial posts
8((()*/
See ya
8)--)) Still here.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2014, 01:52:39 AM
Yes but did this incident actually happen on the 2nd and not the 3rd? To promote an abductor theory it sounds better by changing it to the 3rd. From Fenn's statement the crying episode happened on the 1st so Madeleine would have said this on the morning of the 2nd.
It's very simple, Madeleine was crying on both the Tuesday and the Wednesday nights while her parents were at the restaurant. Mrs Fenn didn't hear her on the second night because she went out to her friends house. 8(0(*
Of course the McCanns didn't realise this when they made their statements. They weren't to know that a neighbour had overheard her crying and to such an extent that she contemplated reporting it to reception. The simplest explanations are always the best!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 01:59:46 AM
Only it DID cross her mind and very seriously (apparently) as she chose to speak of her "concerns" to three of her girl mates....that night BEFore it happened Benice, stop twisting, tara now......
If she was seriously concerned she would have taken the matter further with Madeleine at the time. They were puzzled more than anything else imo and as Madeleine was playing happily - and showing no concern herself, they didn't take it any further.
Do you think if in that video she had been asked if she had mentioned it to anyone else that she would have said no. I certainly don't because she would have no reason to lie.
IMO she was explaining how it only became important because Madeleine was abducted. Her conversation with her friends had no relevance to that point she was making at that particular time.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 14, 2014, 02:01:17 AM
Yes I have just been re-reading things and I seem to have got this mixed up.
But even though she mentioned this conversation at the table, she has brought it up several times publicly as a hint that there could have been someone in the apartment prior to 3rd (as mentioned earlier in this thread).
I understand the importance of going over every detail and placing things correctly in the timeline. Our understanding of the situation can change profoundly according to the alteration of one tiny detail.
I think that it is worth remembering in general terms, however, that much of what Kate McCann has written and said is a result of her reviewing things in her mind. Her words written and spoken are highly discursive in style.
In my opinion this exercise - if not her comments at the table - can be explained quite easily by saying that she was looking for things which may have helped her understand what happened to Madeleine. There is nothing odd about this at all, and nothing in this process to suggest lies.
I don't understand what you mean
Kate did think about Madeleine telling her she had been crying for them .... and she thought about it ( and related it to her friends ) before Madeleine disappeared
Why would she say later .... over and over again in the relentless confused shoulder-shrugging, "Was she talking about when they were in the bath ?" bafflement filled interviews .... that she would never even have thought about Madeleine's remark again, if she hadn't been abducted ?
Why the need for that kind of revisionism ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 14, 2014, 02:13:08 AM
Kate did think about Madeleine telling her she had been crying for them .... and she thought about it ( and related it to her friends ) before Madeleine disappeared
Why would she say later .... over and over again in the relentless confused shoulder-shrugging, "Was she talking about when they were in the bath ?" bafflement filled interviews .... that she would never even have thought about Madeleine's remark again, if she hadn't been abducted ?
Why the need for that kind of revisionism ?
I don't know if it's revisionism. Kate had one reason for reporting the conversation shortly after the time it occurred, and another for recounting it afterward.
It is strange that she says she would never have considered the remark if she hadn't been abducted. Presumably she is trying to emphasise the connection she wants to make between the crying and the alleged abduction.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2014, 02:14:03 AM
The bottom line is that Madeleine was overheard to cry on two consecutive nights. Why was it that Sean and Amelie never roused for the entire night even when transferred to another apartment? Had someone as Kate herself suggested, slipped something into the children's food or drink earlier that day?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
I don't know if it's revisionism. Kate had one reason for reporting the conversation shortly after the time it occurred, and another for recounting it afterward.
It is strange that she says she would never have considered the remark if she hadn't been abducted. Presumably she is trying to emphasise the connection she wants to make between the crying and the alleged abduction.
So she is spinning it then? For a good reason?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 14, 2014, 02:25:44 AM
I'd never use the word liar, Benice. I won't use it because I can't know what has been motivating them over the years, but they have consistently spun - and this issue of Madeleine's comment is one such occasion. You'd so easily be able to avoid having to spin yourself if you just agreed that they have done. The reason why they have (and continue to do imo) is of course not known for certain. By anybody.
That's your opinion and you are entitled to it Lyall. I don't agree. I think Madeleine was abducted and the McCanns and their friends have told the truth throughout to the best of their knowledge. There has been no conspiracy, no whitewash, no spinning, and they don't have 'power' over anyone. They are just two ordinary loving parents who are desperate to find out what happened to their little girl and won't ever stop trying to find out.
I do not believe that SY are part of some huge conspiracy. They know vastly more than we know about everything to do with this case and why that fact is always ignored by Sceptics is a mystery to me.
Picking over and dissecting every word the McCanns say looking to find fault is not a fair way of doing things IMO. It seems that anything they say which suits the sceptics is set in stone and they are telling the truth and everything they say (or don't say) which doesn't suit - then suddenly they are liars. There's no logic in that IMO.
Night night all.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 14, 2014, 02:28:35 AM
Don't know about spinning, just thinking aloud - 'processing' aloud, as the Americans say.
Liverpudlian tendency for outpouring.
Apologies to Liverpudlians for the stereotyped comment (if anyone cares what I say about Liverpudlians; I'm hardly the mayor of London).
I'm intrigued because when Madeleine's parents vowed to leave no stone unturned to find their daughter this presumably also means there is nothing they would not do if they believed it would help, and no tool they would not use. But you do not agree this could include listening to advice and managing the way the circumstances of the disappearance were described by the media?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 14, 2014, 02:56:52 AM
I'm intrigued because when Madeleine's parents vowed to leave no stone unturned to find their daughter this presumably also means there is nothing they would not do if they believed it would help, and no tool they would not use. But you do not agree this could include listening to advice and managing the way the circumstances of the disappearance were described by the media?
Yes, I do agree actually, and as you know I am often critical of the way they have handled publicly certain aspects of the case.
The continued insistence, for example, that in dining away from the apartment they did nothing wrong, has clearly been extremely harmful to them. I don't know who ever advised them to say that, or if anyone at any point advised them not to say that and they insisted on saying it anyway, but either way in my opinion it has been a mistake.
There is a distinction however between lapse in judgement, and obfuscation, and I think it is important to bear that distinction at the front of our minds when we try to analyse the McCanns' actions and words.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2014, 03:07:12 AM
I have mentioned this before but I see no reason for not pointing it out again and that is that Kate McCann never once checked on the children the night Madeleine disappeared, she effectively left it to everyone else. The McCanns left all three children and went for dinner at 8.30pm, it wasn't until 10pm and the end of the meal that Kate decided she should check on them. The point I am making is that if she was so concerned about Madeleine's crying from the previous night she certainly didn't show it.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 03:12:41 AM
I have mentioned this before but I see no reason for not pointing it out again and that is that Kate McCann never once checked on the children the night Madeleine disappeared, she effectively left it to everyone else. The McCanns left all three children and went for dinner at 8.30pm, it wasn't until 10pm and the end of the meal that Kate decided she should check on them. The point I am making is that if she was so concerned about Madeleine's crying from the previous night she certainly didn't show it.
It certainly is a strange story, Angelo. And their book made us none the wiser. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 14, 2014, 03:16:11 AM
Yes, I do agree actually, and as you know I am often critical of the way they have handled publicly certain aspects of the case.
The continued insistence, for example, that in dining away from the apartment they did nothing wrong, has clearly been extremely harmful to them. I don't know who ever advised them to say that, or if anyone at any point advised them not to say that and they insisted on saying it anyway, but either way in my opinion it has been a mistake.
There is a distinction however between lapse in judgement, and obfuscation, and I think it is important to bear that distinction at the front of our minds when we try to analyse the McCanns' actions and words.
>@@(*&) Not sure you answered my question there, SH. I shall return to my probing (or not) questions later ?{)(**
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 14, 2014, 03:45:33 AM
IF what happened hadnt happened, kate says, ie the abduction, which she didnt now know about till ten that night, then that comment from madeleine would never had passed her mind again..ONLY IT DID BEFORE she found out Madeleine was missing as she SPOKE Bout if BEFORE "IT" happened to all her mates...stop spinning benice.......its getting boring
... moderated out irrelevant ...
Well theres a thing I NEVER KNEW THAT.
So she mentioned what Maddy said to her at the dinner table THAT NIGHT.
Yikes that has given me pause for thought. Why?
You see for me, if it was THAT IMPORTANT this conversation by her daughter that SHE has to tell her friends THAT EVENING...then it must have been important enough in all the events of the day for her to remember it....this little conversation....
So IF it was THAT IMPORTANT, that she just had to tell all her friends about it, you would have thought it would have been QUITE TRAUMATIC for her daughter to have told her about it in the first place as obviously for the child to TALK about such a traumatic event in the morning one would think you would not want to let it happen again......BUT instead of staying at home and being their for your child, you just have to rush off to your friends and tell them all about it..........AND Mrs McCann was so worried about it, she never even got up to check on her daughter until 10pm....but let her friends do the checking for her.
Also IF the child had been crying the night before you would think when the parents came back in and they went to calm her down, it would have been THEN she would have said this...sob sob sob "why did you not come to us when we were crying"""""NOT IN THE MORNING.
Its like setting the scene....isnt it.
Sadly this one thing makes me have evil thoughts with regards to the McCanns...how could they leave her again...this is one of the reasons I cant jump down off the fence....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 14, 2014, 08:21:31 AM
So she mentioned what Maddy said to her at the dinner table THAT NIGHT.
Yikes that has given me pause for thought. Why?
You see for me, if it was THAT IMPORTANT this conversation by her daughter that SHE has to tell her friends THAT EVENING...then it must have been important enough in all the events of the day for her to remember it....this little conversation....
So IF it was THAT IMPORTANT, that she just had to tell all her friends about it, you would have thought it would have been QUITE TRAUMATIC for her daughter to have told her about it in the first place as obviously for the child to TALK about such a traumatic event in the morning one would think you would not want to let it happen again......BUT instead of staying at home and being their for your child, you just have to rush off to your friends and tell them all about it..........AND Mrs McCann was so worried about it, she never even got up to check on her daughter until 10pm....but let her friends do the checking for her.
Also IF the child had been crying the night before you would think when the parents came back in and they went to calm her down, it would have been THEN she would have said this...sob sob sob "why did you not come to us when we were crying"""""NOT IN THE MORNING.
Its like setting the scene....isnt it.
Sadly this one thing makes me have evil thoughts with regards to the McCanns...how could they leave her again...this is one of the reasons I cant jump down off the fence....
Yes indeed, which in turn would lead one to think that whatever happened to Madeleine happened before they went to the Tapas.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 14, 2014, 11:31:34 AM
The bottom line is that Madeleine was overheard to cry on two consecutive nights. Why was it that Sean and Amelie never roused for the entire night even when transferred to another apartment? Had someone as Kate herself suggested, slipped something into the children's food or drink earlier that day?
Rachael stayed in on the 2nd and she was in the apartment next door to 5A. Don't you think she would've heard Madeleine and Sean crying? She didn't hear anything. Everything that has been said about the night implies an abductor possibly being in the apartment i.e. night before and before Gerry's check with the half-open door and an open window that nobody passed through.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: colombosstogey on January 14, 2014, 11:50:25 AM
Rachael stayed in on the 2nd and she was in the apartment next door to 5A. Don't you think she would've heard Madeleine and Sean crying? She didn't hear anything. Everything that has been said about the night implies an abductor possibly being in the apartment i.e. night before and before Gerry's check with the half-open door and an open window that nobody passed through.
BUT would she say something if she had?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 14, 2014, 11:56:12 AM
Well I certainly think she would have done something about it if it had happened. She wouldn't ignore it if she could hear them wailing for ages. The crying incident happened on the 1st and was changed to the 2nd to promote an abductor being in the apartment the night before she disappeared.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 11:57:16 AM
Well I certainly think she would have done something about it if it had happened. She wouldn't ignore it if she could hear them wailing for ages. No the crying incident happened on the 1st and was changed to the 2nd to promote an abductor being in the apartment the night before she disappeared.
For a "dry run" !!
and possibly drugging the kids too!
Seen this in films over bank heists or escape from colditz, never in a child abduction case, KM has a very fertive imagnation
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 14, 2014, 11:57:27 AM
Well I certainly think she would have done something about it if it had happened. She wouldn't ignore it if she could hear them wailing for ages. The crying incident happened on the 1st and was changed to the 2nd to promote an abductor being in the apartment the night before she disappeared.
Yes perhaps Racheal texted Mrs McCann to tell her the children were awake....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 12:24:40 PM
Seen this in films over bank heists or escape from colditz, never in a child abduction case, KM has a very fertive imagnation
>@@(*&)
That Fantasy Land Chapter should have been far bigger. When you have a week between statements it gives you plenty of time to think about things but contradictions occur if you change your story or don't tell the truth. There is no mention of what time they got back to the apartment on TUE 1 MAY in the Madeleine book only that Madeleine came into their room in the early hours of the 2nd after complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie and they let Madeleine stay in their bed.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 02:03:02 PM
That Fantasy Land Chapter should have been far bigger. When you have a week between statements it gives you plenty of time to think about things but contradictions occur if you change your story or don't tell the truth. There is no mention of what time they got back to the apartment on TUE 1 MAY in the Madeleine book only that Madeleine came into their room in the early hours of the 2nd after complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie and they let Madeleine stay in their bed.
Th "book" certainly rewrote history as well as embellish and disinform.....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 14, 2014, 05:18:27 PM
I didn't say anyone was lying. No-body knows for sure what Madeleine was talking about - because she moved off as soon as she'd said it and was totally unconcerned.
I repeat if Madeleine - or Madeleine and Sean had cried the night before, then it couldn't have been for long because Rachael would have heard them.
So maybe they did cry for a few minutes. Or maybe they didn't. Or maybe Madeleine was talking about a completely different time, or maybe she dreamed it. No-body can say for sure because they never got to the bottom of it.
It has nothing to do with anyone lying.
Mrs Fenn heard a child that she thinks was Madeleine crying for an hour and a quarter one evening prior to Madeleine's 'disappearance'. That is in the police files. Of course it may not have been Madeleine. But equally it might have been. That is a very long time for a young child to be crying. If the crying was coming from the McCann's apartment it either suggests that there was no parent there to comfort the child or it suggests that the parent/s were ignoring the child. Either of these is worrying. Mrs Fenn was concerned enough to speak to a friend about it. It's a real shame she didn't phone Mark Warner reception/investigate herself/call the creche and get a nanny to look in/call the police.
Are we sure she didn't call MW reception or speak to them?
Kate states that Madeleine asked why no-one came when she and her brother cried. I do not find this credible. It is unlikely that such a young child would recall a crying incident from the previous evening and then in such a matter of fact way ask the parents a direct question about it. It simply does not strike me as a credible comment. If Madeleine had been crying and distressed that no-one came (which we would assume would be the case if we are to believe Kate's account) then she would likely be tired and clingy the next day. Why would she nonchalantly make a remark like that if, as Kate implies, she was not bothered about it?
It doesn't sound credible. So in my opinion that was a fabrication. Either to confuse the issue over various crying incidents and/or to plant the idea that a potential abductor had entered the apartment, disturbed the children and then fled.It allows Kate to introduce the idea of a potential abductor 'casing the joint'. It may also cloud the issue over the previous crying incident, as heard by Mrs Fenn, and exactly what caused it and why it started and then stopped.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 14, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
Where where the McCann parents and their friends on the evening that Mrs Fenn heard crying coming from their apartment for an hour and a quarter? Were there any adults in the apartment? Were checks made on the children? Crying for that length of time that escalates in volume is a sign of deep distress. What was going on?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 14, 2014, 05:34:46 PM
Where where the McCann parents and their friends on the evening that Mrs Fenn heard crying coming from their apartment for an hour and a quarter? Were there any adults in the apartment? Were checks made on the children? Crying for that length of time that escalates in volume is a sign of deep distress. What was going on?
If she had been questioned in more depth, right at the beginning, as well as other neighbours, perhaps there might be more information about her perception...
As it is, there doesn't seem to be.
If she had found it that distressing, she might have been inclined to ring the OC reception, check with other neighbours, or gone down herself.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 14, 2014, 05:37:11 PM
The Gaspers made a statement to police regarding inappropriate behaviour by Dr David Payne (and witnessed by Gerry McCann which they believed was indicative of an interest in child pornography on the internet. They went forward to the police after they learned that David Payne was part of the group holidaying when Madeleine's parents alleged that their daughter had been stolen from her bed by a paedophile.
After witnessing this behaviour, neither of the Gaspers felt it was safe to allow David Payne to help bathe their children. They made sure their daughter would not be alone with him.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 14, 2014, 06:07:06 PM
That's because there doesn't need to be more information about her perception. If you read the statement she is very clear. She's certain it was downstairs and having lived there for 4 years she should know which direction the sounds originate from. It didn't sound like too small a child and it stopped because a parent returned. Prior to that she sought advice by ringing her friend.
How much clearer do you need it?
- Her statement say from the floor below.
- Nope, I've lived in apartment blocks and wondered where on earth the noise was actually coming from. And I was no where near her age.
- She was elderly and wasn't even interviewed until months later.
- Her friend doesn't seem to have been contacted to corroborate the details.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 06:16:59 PM
Yep! Payne's adjacent with a baby monitor so that's them ruled out. O'Brien in all night so that's them ruled out. Oldfield's child only 21 months so unlikely to be repeatedly shouting "daddy daddy".
Only leaves the McCanns doesn't it? Who then chose to deceive the PJ and the whole world via numerous interviews and also the book. I keep banging on about it but Mrs Fenn clearly states she heard a parent return and immediately the crying stopped. That parent is clearly part of this deception.
But she didn't see anyone return. She heard the patio doors open and she assumed that the parents had returned. One or other of the parents could have been in the apartment. Someone else could have been in the apartment. The patio doors could have been opened by someone other than the McCann parents.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 14, 2014, 07:30:12 PM
I have mentioned this before but I see no reason for not pointing it out again and that is that Kate McCann never once checked on the children the night Madeleine disappeared, she effectively left it to everyone else. The McCanns left all three children and went for dinner at 8.30pm, it wasn't until 10pm and the end of the meal that Kate decided she should check on them. The point I am making is that if she was so concerned about Madeleine's crying from the previous night she certainly didn't show it.
Yes, presumably there are good reasons why Kate did not check that night until that is she 'discovered Madeleine had gone'.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 14, 2014, 07:37:44 PM
- Nope, I've lived in apartment blocks and wondered where on earth the noise was actually coming from. And I was no where near her age.
- She was elderly and wasn't even interviewed until months later.
- Her friend doesn't seem to have been contacted to corroborate the details.
I forgot to mention this earlier...sounds can indeed seem to come from a different place than where they actually do, but thats fleeting ones mostly, hearing a consistent sound for over an hour would hone you in more directly imo...the old lady probably went out on her balcony as well and who knows as a concerned neighbour probably went down the lift too to check!!!! in any case she was so concerned she rang her friend about this child that was unattended to for over an hour....if she had any doubt where the noise came from she would have said to police she wasnt too sure but she didnt
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 08:12:10 PM
This thread is also related, why did kate mccanns phone ping so many times around 10 30 that night of the crying starting as reported by Mrs Fenn...unlike any other night previously since arrival or after until after abduction!
This thread is also related, why did kate mccanns phone ping so many times around 10 30 that night of the crying starting as reported by Mrs Fenn...unlike any other night previously since arrival or after until after abduction!
just a thought but could kate have called gerry saying that maddie was in total meltdown and that kate needed help to deal with her? ie kate was with maddie in the apartment
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 14, 2014, 08:30:14 PM
just a thought but could kate have called gerry saying that maddie was in total meltdown and that kate needed help to deal with her? ie kate was with maddie in the apartment
Possible she rang Gerry but no way of knowing, the phone records are not there for Kates phone that night..Gerrys are though..I would have to trawl to see, maybe tomorrow
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 14, 2014, 09:22:21 PM
Well - lots of strange things were going on that week at the resort. We are asked by the McCanns to believe that a paedophile abducted their daughter on the evening of the 3rd May. The suggestion is that the paedophile attempted an abduction the evening before (2nd May) but was thwarted when Madeleine and her brother woke up.
So, on the basis of lots of strange things going on that week - who knows what was going on on the night of 1st May. It is on police record that a neighbour heard crying from the McCann's apartment for an hour and a quarter from 10.30pm until 11.45pm. The crying escalated in volume and the neighbour was concerned enough to contact another person about it to express her concern.
The neighbour heard the patio doors open but did not see who went in. If we take the McCann abduction theory at face value, who is to say that the abductor did not go in? Perhaps he/she/they were casing the joint a few nights before?
Are there reliable records/accounts of Madeleine being seen at the resort after the evening of `1st May? Creche records/witness statements.
Quite important to ascertain that, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 14, 2014, 09:23:40 PM
This thread is also related, why did kate mccanns phone ping so many times around 10 30 that night of the crying starting as reported by Mrs Fenn...unlike any other night previously since arrival or after until after abduction!
Good point - following this crying incident there was activity on the McCann phone line. Why would that be?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 14, 2014, 11:29:57 PM
Rachael Oldfield
1578 “So you, on the Wednesday evening then, you stayed in the apartment with Grace”? Reply “Yeah, yeah. I remember reading my book on the sofa for a while and then think I, I went to bed but it would have been quite, you know it would have been about nine, cos I’d been up most of the night before, erm and I mean I know that on Thursday night when we sat down at the table, Kate said that to Madeleine and Sean had you know, said they’d been crying on the Wednesday night and asking where erm, they’d said they’d been crying and, and some, you know, this is sort of with hindsight but I you know, I was trying to think whether I’d heard anything but”. 1578 “On the Wednesday evening”. Reply “Mmm”. 1578 “Who said they’d been crying sorry”? Reply “Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they’d been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANN’s said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they’d seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn’t hear any, well you know, I didn’t hear anything,
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 15, 2014, 12:25:08 AM
The more I read about the night of Tuesday 1st of May ... the night of the quiz that the tapas group have a collective amnesia about ... the night Mrs Fenn heard crying coming from the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ... the night Kate's phone had unprecidented activity ... the night that, in her book, Kate says Madeleine slept in their bed ... the more I wonder if that was the night something very significant happened
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 15, 2014, 12:48:59 AM
The more I read about the night of Tuesday 1st of May ... the night of the quiz that the tapas group have a collective amnesia about ... the night Mrs Fenn heard crying coming from the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ... the night Kate's phone had unprecidented activity ... the night that, in her book, Kate says Madeleine slept in their bed ... the more I wonder if that was the night something very significant happened
Why do you claim ''collective amnesia''? Neither the PJ nor the McCanns and their friends had any idea of what Mrs Fenn was going to say months later. To them it was just a normal night - with nothing significant to report to the PJ. If the PJ had interviewed Mrs. Fenn when they should have done - this whole matter may well have been cleared up within days of the abduction.
I find it difficult to understand why - after Mrs Fenn phoned her friend apparently concerned enough to ask advice - that over an hour later they should still be chatting and yet Mrs Fenn did nothing. What was the advice she was given and why is there no statement from her friend?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 15, 2014, 12:57:10 AM
The more I read about the night of Tuesday 1st of May ... the night of the quiz that the tapas group have a collective amnesia about ... the night Mrs Fenn heard crying coming from the McCanns' apartment for an hour and a quarter ... the night Kate's phone had unprecidented activity ... the night that, in her book, Kate says Madeleine slept in their bed ... the more I wonder if that was the night something very significant happened
Indeed... a significant night.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 15, 2014, 01:01:23 AM
Why do you claim ''collective amnesia''? Neither the PJ nor the McCanns and their friends had any idea of what Mrs Fenn was going to say months later. To them it was just a normal night - with nothing significant to report to the PJ. If the PJ had interviewed Mrs. Fenn when they should have done - this whole matter may well have been cleared up within days of the abduction.
I find it difficult to understand why - after Mrs Fenn phoned her friend apparently concerned enough to ask advice - that over an hour later they should still be chatting and yet Mrs Fenn did nothing. What was the advice she was given and why is there no statement from her friend?
Nice try.....but quite frankly when a child is crying for over an hour and then a few days later there is (allegedly) an abuduction, it is perfectly understandably that people will ask questions.....
Mrs Fenn did nothing......oh so it is all her fault is it??
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 15, 2014, 01:01:45 AM
Why do you claim ''collective amnesia''? Neither the PJ nor the McCanns and their friends had any idea of what Mrs Fenn was going to say months later. To them it was just a normal night - with nothing significant to report to the PJ. If the PJ had interviewed Mrs. Fenn when they should have done - this whole matter may well have been cleared up within days of the abduction.
I find it difficult to understand why - after Mrs Fenn phoned her friend apparently concerned enough to ask advice - that over an hour later they should still be chatting and yet Mrs Fenn did nothing. What was the advice she was given and why is there no statement from her friend?
The 'collective amnesia' I was refering to was the Tuesday night quiz
None of the tapas group ... none of them ... could recall ( in their rogatory interviews ) which night the quiz was on ( and therefore could not commit as to who was present at the table that Tuesday night, and who was not )
Even Russell O'Brien, who was the tapas member claimed to be responsible for the empty chair that night ( an empty chair that was witnessed by the aerobics instructor who joined the table that night ) could not recall which night it was that he was absent
The aerobics instructor did not recall seeing Kate McCann there ... just for reference
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 01:09:14 AM
Do you remember boring events ? They might just be polite, not remembering.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 15, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
One point of commonality between Kate McCann's statement and Mrs Fenn's is that 10.30, according to Kate, was the time that the last check took place, and according to Mrs Fenn it was at that time that the crying started.
Whatever mix-ups there might have been about the timings, doesn't it seem significant that Madeleine's crying - if we are to take these times at face vaule - began at the same time as the apartment was vacated?
Perhaps Madeleine was awakened, or began sleeping more lightly, during the check. Footsteps; a moving door. Or perhaps closing the door on the way out made a noise which woke and scared her, causing her to start crying.
...Perhaps, alternatively, an intruder entered the apartment shortly after 10.30, seeing that a check had just been made. That would have been an opportune time to go in.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2014, 01:21:26 AM
I'm reading that they went on to Chaplins which is 800 metres away on TUE 1st May so that's why they never heard Madeleine crying on the night for over an hour because they never checked when they were there. They arrived back at 11.45pm according to Fenn and the crying stopped. I will need to look further into this Chaplins lead.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 15, 2014, 01:21:40 AM
Nice try.....but quite frankly when a child is crying for over an hour and then a few days later there is (allegedly) an abuduction, it is perfectly understandably that people will ask questions.....
Mrs Fenn did nothing......oh so it is all her fault is it??
I just think it's strange that having mentioned her concerns to her friend that their combined decision was to to do absolutely nothing ? As there were several children in 'the floor below' then IMO it cannot be claimed that it could only have been Madeleine that Mrs Fenn heard.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 15, 2014, 01:21:53 AM
I'm reading that they went on to Chaplins which is 800 metres away on TUE 1st May so that's why they never heard Madeleine crying on the night for over an hour because they never checked when they were there. They arrived back at 11.45pm according to Fenn and the crying stopped.
A long since discredited forum myth.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 15, 2014, 01:25:57 AM
Do you remember boring events ? They might just be polite, not remembering.
No Anne ... there is a strangely uniform and determined effort to be particularly vague and 'forgetful' about that night ( Tuesday 1st of May ) by all the tapas group
It's there in the rogatory interviews
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 01:33:34 AM
No Anne ... there is a strangely uniform and determined effort to be particularly vague and 'forgetful' about that night ( Tuesday 1st of May ) by all the tapas group
It's there in the rogatory interviews
I really think that they had the clear idea that saying the less would be the best. It's not even certain that Mr McCann was really interested in the aerobic quiz, though he invited the lady at the table. Are you suggesting, like Jeanne d'Arc, that something happened on that night ? That would explain mainly the amazing ignorance of the sailing episode. But there are some technicalities that aren't bypassable.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2014, 01:36:26 AM
No Anne ... there is a strangely uniform and determined effort to be particularly vague and 'forgetful' about that night ( Tuesday 1st of May ) by all the tapas group
It's there in the rogatory interviews
Yes this was meant to be the Quiz night but no one can remember what night it was. I will have to look into Chaplins to see where it leads (Chaplins Quiz night was on TUE).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 15, 2014, 01:41:20 AM
I really think that they had the clear idea that saying the less would be the best. It's not even certain that Mr McCann was really interested in the aerobic quiz, though he invited the lady at the table. Are you suggesting, like Jeanne d'Arc, that something happened on that night ? That would explain mainly the amazing ignorance of the sailing episode. But there are some technicalities that aren't bypassable.
I don't know who Jeanne d'Arc is Anne ... but yes, I think something significant happened to Madeleine on Tuesday 1st of May
Not that Madeleine 'disappeared' on that night ... just that something significant occured then
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 15, 2014, 01:42:53 AM
No Anne ... there is a strangely uniform and determined effort to be particularly vague and 'forgetful' about that night ( Tuesday 1st of May ) by all the tapas group
It's there in the rogatory interviews
What nonsense. The group could only reply to the questions they were being asked. There is nothing odd about them not knowing exactly what they did on each day of the holiday - as they had no idea that it was ever going to be important - so had no reason to make sure they remembered.
Could you give a detailed description with exact times etc of what you did every minute of every day last week? I certainly couldn't.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2014, 01:47:20 AM
I will look into it first before calling it a myth. If Fenn was correct in that they never checked for over an hour then they were probably somewhere further away from the apartment. So I will follow this Chaplins lead to see where it goes.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:00:56 AM
I will look into it first before calling it a myth. If Fenn was correct in that they never checked for over an hour then they were probably somewhere further away from the apartment. So I will follow this Chaplins lead to see where it goes.
I think that Benice is right and it is a myth. What isn't a myth is that on the 1st the McCanns said they came back home at 23. If so, it's not their return that mafe Madeleine (no, it can't be the Oldfield baby) stop crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:04:19 AM
What nonsense. The group could only reply to the questions they were being asked. There is nothing odd about them not knowing exactly what they did on each day of the holiday - as they had no idea that it was ever going to be important - so had no reason to make sure they remembered.
Could you give a detailed description with exact times etc of what you did every minute of every day last week? I certainly couldn't.
I agree with that. All days were different from their normal UK days, but those PDL days were all alike. The exception though concerns what happened after they came back from the beach. Those events must have frozen in their memory.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:11:06 AM
I don't know who Jeanne d'Arc is Anne ... but yes, I think something significant happened to Madeleine on Tuesday 1st of May
Not that Madeleine 'disappeared' on that night ... just that something significant occured then
Jeanne d'Arc is a member of this forum, she posted a few times and you told her you were interested in her opinion, by which I presumed you knew her out of the box blog. http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.pt/p/theorie.html (http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.pt/p/theorie.html)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 15, 2014, 02:11:21 AM
Jeanne d'Arc is a member of this forum, she posted a few times and you told her you were interested in her opinion, by which I presumed you knew her out of the box blog. http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.pt/p/theorie.html (http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.pt/p/theorie.html)
How fascinating, Anne - I thought this was another of your historic allusions!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:13:36 AM
Joan of Arc, icabod. Went through a rather rigorous and unpleasant trial where she was quizzed in an inquisitorial manner.
Oh how I have missed Anne here on the board!
oh dear ... how mortifying ! 8()-000(
I'm so used to references being being made to posters on other forums that I immediately assumed it was the username of someone well known amongst the 'old guard' that I would never have heard of
I'm sorry for making that assumption where you were concerned Anne ... I should have known better
edited to add ... LOL ... I'm not really cut out for this forum business at all, am I 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:23:01 AM
How fascinating, Anne - I thought this was another of your historic allusions!
And in a way you could, because I wrote that name the way it should be written and not like Jeanne d'Arc writes it (she didn't like my observing this, she said the computer didn't accept ', therefore she wrote Jeanne d Arc.. which hurt my eyes, if I may say). I try to find a possible concordance of times between Jeanne d'Arc and Madeleine and all I find is that the British let her down.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 15, 2014, 02:27:34 AM
And in a way you could, because I wrote that name the way it should be written and not like Jeanne d'Arc writes it (she didn't like my observing this, she said the computer didn't accept ', therefore she wrote Jeanne d Arc.. which hurt my eyes, if I may say). I try to find a possible concordance of times between Jeanne d'Arc and Madeleine and all I find is that the British let her down.
Probably many more if we examine things.
Both Catholic 'martyrs' ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:29:05 AM
Joan of Arc, icabod. Went through a rather rigorous and unpleasant trial where she was quizzed in an inquisitorial manner.
She wasn't quizzed aerobically, for sure, the purpose was to burn her as a witch. I love Leonard Cohen singing.. I love your solitude, I love your pride.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 02:30:31 AM
She wasn't quizzed aerobically, for sure, the purpose was to burn her as a witch. I love Leonard Cohen singing.. I love your solitude, I love your pride.
Oh, they don't make music like they used to.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Cariad on January 15, 2014, 11:15:26 AM
She wasn't quizzed aerobically, for sure, the purpose was to burn her as a witch. I love Leonard Cohen singing.. I love your solitude, I love your pride.
If he was fire, then you must be wood.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Cariad on January 15, 2014, 11:21:49 AM
What nonsense. The group could only reply to the questions they were being asked. There is nothing odd about them not knowing exactly what they did on each day of the holiday - as they had no idea that it was ever going to be important - so had no reason to make sure they remembered.
Could you give a detailed description with exact times etc of what you did every minute of every day last week? I certainly couldn't.
Last week? probably not. I lost someone on the 20th of March 2007 and can tell you that Mother's day fell on the 18th of March that year. That comic relief was on 16th, that my son had football training on the 15 and it was freezing cold, that we bought chips on the way home. On the Monday of that week, so that would be the 12th, it was parents evening.
On Tuesday the 20th a surveyor was due at my house. It was sunny. My younger son was going to his friends house for dinner straight from school.
When something significant happens you do tend to remember the surrounding events.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 15, 2014, 11:27:56 AM
Last week? probably not. I lost someone on the 20th of March 2007 and can tell you that Mother's day fell on the 18th of March that year. That comic relief was on 16th, that my son had football training on the 15 and it was freezing cold, that we bought chips on the way home. On the Monday of that week, so that would be the 12th, it was parents evening.
On Tuesday the 20th a surveyor was due at my house. It was sunny. My younger son was going to his friends house for dinner straight from school.
When something significant happens you do tend to remember the surrounding events.
|I have had a similar experience and agree entirely.
One thing that struck me about the holiday is how repetitively boring it must have been given that none of the Tapas could remember, with any detail, what they did that week.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2014, 01:59:47 PM
Pamela Fenn told her hairdresser they were at Chaplins when Madeleine was crying on TUE 1 MAY.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 15, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
I wonder if that was true? After all, someone would have to have told her that for her to know.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 15, 2014, 03:49:39 PM
It makes perfect sense. They couldn't have checked on Madeleine if they were there and that would explain why Fenn heard Madeleine crying from 10.30 to 11.45 and the crying stopped when they came back. Fenn heard them enter by the patio door at 11.45pm It's situated next to the church by the beach.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 15, 2014, 05:14:08 PM
If this was true, wouldnt someone/several people have remembered? Once the story hit the news and for weeks and months after? Its just hearsay really....
Mind you it might account for a crying child near Mrs Fenns flat for over an hour that no one seems to have heard or been able to soothe......
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 15, 2014, 05:32:33 PM
|I have had a similar experience and agree entirely.
One thing that struck me about the holiday is how repetitively boring it must have been given that none of the Tapas could remember, with any detail, what they did that week.
Yes, I could not agree more. When anything dramatic has happened in my life I remember the surrounding days with great clarity. I do not find it credible that the McCann parents and their friends cannot recall the events of the days surrounding the alleged abduction. I believe they have fabricated events, which may account for the inconsistencies and the changes of strories. The Portugese police did not believe the friends' accounts and thought Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a child was irrelevant.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 15, 2014, 05:35:50 PM
If this was true, wouldnt someone/several people have remembered? Once the story hit the news and for weeks and months after? Its just hearsay really....
Mind you it might account for a crying child near Mrs Fenns flat for over an hour that no one seems to have heard or been able to soothe......
Perhaps they put something in the the water, or the wine to induce collective amnesia - certainly worked on the Tapas 9.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 15, 2014, 05:45:14 PM
Perhaps they put something in the the water, or the wine to induce collective amnesia - certainly worked on the Tapas 9.
LOL
The only source for this story is a certain internet poster from years ago called Vera who said she was at chaplins that night and saw them....thats it..stuff spreads but no corroboration
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2014, 07:54:27 PM
The Portugese police did not believe the friends' accounts and thought Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a child was irrelevant.
They found her sighting was irrelevant not because they doubted she has seen, but because she wasn't seen. Even if you saw someone two minutes before, if you meet that person you say 'hi' or wave.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2014, 10:10:32 PM
Yes, I could not agree more. When anything dramatic has happened in my life I remember the surrounding days with great clarity. I do not find it credible that the McCann parents and their friends cannot recall the events of the days surrounding the alleged abduction. I believe they have fabricated events, which may account for the inconsistencies and the changes of strories. The Portugese police did not believe the friends' accounts and thought Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a child was irrelevant.
Some people do, others don't.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 15, 2014, 10:19:44 PM
I tend to thnk if your child went missing you would remember everything! and if you didnt you would rack your brain till you did, not a matter of some people do some dont......
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2014, 08:57:04 AM
I tend to thnk if your child went missing you would remember everything! and if you didnt you would rack your brain till you did, not a matter of some people do some dont......
My impression is that Kate and Gerry did. I thought that the issue raised by some posters that the friends should have had an equally acute recall of mundane details of what had been an uneventful holiday up until then.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 16, 2014, 10:04:18 AM
My impression is that Kate and Gerry did. I thought that the issue raised by some posters that the friends should have had an equally acute recall of mundane details of what had been an uneventful holiday up until then.
Given that these were generally intelligent people, trained in observation ( medical skills), that seems a reasonable assumption.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 16, 2014, 10:07:07 AM
My impression is that Kate and Gerry did. I thought that the issue raised by some posters that the friends should have had an equally acute recall of mundane details of what had been an uneventful holiday up until then.
Oh I see, well apart from the remembering wrongly which door he entered the apartment by (GM) then fair enough, though it wasnt just remembering mundane details, half the time they couldnt remember which day it was that anything much happened and when they did they were wrong as well.....and not about an early day but THE day and afternoon/early evening
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 16, 2014, 05:39:37 PM
In my opinion the night of 1st May is crucial to this enquiry. Quite a lot was going on that night. Escalating crying came from the apartment. Was Kate in the apartment for some of this time?
What was going on in the apartment that night? Were there any accurate reports of Madeleine having been seen after that evening? This should be reasonably easy to verify from staff at the club or other witnesses.
A child, thought to be in the McCann'a apartment, was crying out in distress for over an hour that evening. This has not been adequately accounted for.
In her book, Kate downplays the events of that evening, saying only two minor aspects stand out as differing from the norm. One was that Russell wasn't there. The other was that Madeleine came into their room complaining that Amelie was crying and and had woken her up. 'Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us'.
We are then told that Wednesday 2 May was 'our last completely happy day. Our last, to date, as a family of five.'
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 16, 2014, 06:16:57 PM
But madeleine was fine and reckoned for by nannies on the third.....I dont support theories that something happned to her days before
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 16, 2014, 06:21:41 PM
But madeleine was fine and reckoned for by nannies on the third.....I dont support theories that something happned to her days before
Me neither but that Chaplins lead should be investigated as it came from Fenn's hairdresser. Phone calls just before 10.30 possibly in 5A on her last check and then she leaves to fetch Gerry away from the tapas bar if she thought he was flirting with that young woman. Chaplins probably was investigated but there's nothing in the files?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 16, 2014, 06:35:19 PM
Me neither but that Chaplins lead should be investigated as it came from Fenn's hairdresser. Phone calls just before 10.30 possibly in 5A on her last check and then she leaves to fetch Gerry away from the tapas bar if she thought he was flirting with that young woman. Chaplins probably was investigated but there's nothing in the files?
Doesnt mean Mrs Fenn said it...hairdressers gossip to be investigated? I dont think so lol....and anyway what if they were at chaplins, whats the big deal...well apart from them being miles away from the kids
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 16, 2014, 07:07:26 PM
Doesnt mean Mrs Fenn said it...hairdressers gossip to be investigated? I dont think so lol....and anyway what if they were at chaplins, whats the big deal...well apart from them being miles away from the kids
No it doesn't mean she said it but it's a lead worth pursuing. It would explain why Madeleine was crying for that long without any checks and also contradict their story. They are meant to be at the tapas bar and said it was impossible for Madeleine to be crying for that long as they were back at the apartment earlier than that time. I don't think they got back to the apartment until 11.45 so where were they? At the tapas bar or somewhere else?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 16, 2014, 07:12:03 PM
No it doesn't mean she said it but it's a lead worth pursuing. It would explain why Madeleine was crying for that long without any checks and also contradict their story. They are meant to be at the tapas bar and said it was impossible for Madeleine to be crying for that long as they were back at the apartment earlier than that time. I don't think they got back to the apartment until 11.45 so where were they? At the tapas bar or somewhere else?
Yes it would mean they lied but thats it
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2014, 07:23:15 PM
Me neither but that Chaplins lead should be investigated as it came from Fenn's hairdresser. Phone calls just before 10.30 possibly in 5A on her last check and then she leaves to fetch Gerry away from the tapas bar if she thought he was flirting with that young woman. Chaplins probably was investigated but there's nothing in the files?
A bit late. And no, I haven't found anything in the files to back up that bit of village gossip.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 16, 2014, 07:25:40 PM
Worse that that - guilty of neglect and very bad parenting if they were found to be 800 metres away leaving 3 children in an unlocked apartment. You would definitely want to keep that secret at all costs.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 16, 2014, 07:42:37 PM
Worse that that - guilty of neglect and very bad parenting if they were found to be 800 metres away leaving 3 children in an unlocked apartment. You would definitely want to keep that secret at all costs.
Yes I know, but nothing near a death circumstance overand above any other circumstance....the fact the mccanns have lied is well documented in several scenarios
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 16, 2014, 07:47:29 PM
Doesnt mean Mrs Fenn said it...hairdressers gossip to be investigated? I dont think so lol....and anyway what if they were at chaplins, whats the big deal...well apart from them being miles away from the kids
Well, despite your nonchalance, she made a police statement. She has no particular reason to lie. And actually it is quite a big deal that the parents were a long way from their children because, according to the McCanns, that enabled a paedophile abductor to steal Madeleine from her bed.
I think that is quite a big deal.
I don't think that is exactly what happened - or at least not in the manner the McCanns and their friends said and not at the time that the claimed.
But, your glib comments are incredibly shallow.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 16, 2014, 07:50:04 PM
Err....the parents lied.....that's quite a big deal, right? If they can lie about that what else can they lie about?
Well, in my opinion, they have lied about pretty much everything.......and they have had a good old laugh about it with their mates as they assume that everyone else is stupid.
Well, like I said, their arrogance is more than astonishing.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 16, 2014, 08:35:44 PM
Err....the parents lied.....that's quite a big deal, right? If they can lie about that what else can they lie about?
Well, in my opinion, they have lied about pretty much everything.......and they have had a good old laugh about it with their mates as they assume that everyone else is stupid.
Well, like I said, their arrogance is more than astonishing.
We all know they are liars.100 per cent no denying all total liars.......but not sure what they are lyng about
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 12:33:58 AM
Me neither but that Chaplins lead should be investigated as it came from Fenn's hairdresser. Phone calls just before 10.30 possibly in 5A on her last check and then she leaves to fetch Gerry away from the tapas bar if she thought he was flirting with that young woman. Chaplins probably was investigated but there's nothing in the files?
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly Sceptics are so willing to throw common sense, logic and reasoned thought out of the window in their desperation to demonise the McCanns and their friends.
There are no statements from the Bar staff of Chaplins about the McCanns - because the McCanns were never there. It's a forum myth.
There are no statements from any members of the public saying they saw the McCanns and/or their friends at Chaplins because they weren't there. It's a forum myth.
There are no statements from the Tapas Restaurant staff to say that on one particular evening the McCanns and their friends changed their routine and all left early to go to elsewhere (Chaplins) - because they didn't - it is a forum myth. According to the bar staff the only night the group changed their routine and stayed later than usual was on the 2nd May.
There are no statements from the McCanns or their friends to say that they ever went to Chaplins - because they didn't - it is a forum myth.
Amaral never mentions that he thought the McCanns and their friends ever went to Chaplins because he knows they didn't. It's a forum myth.
That is why there is nothing about Chaplins in the files. Because it's a myth.
FGS - accept it and get over it. It didn't happen. It's a myth.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 17, 2014, 12:38:17 AM
The McCanns, and their spokesman, Clarence Michell, have long proclaimed it an affront to question anything at all that they claim to be the truth
When there are instances where the McCanns are shown to have been 'less' than truthful, then the whole, "questioning Kate and Gerry's honesty is ludicrous" protestation, becomes non sequitur
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 01:03:32 AM
The McCanns, and their spokesman, Clarence Michell, have long proclaimed it an affront to question anything at all that they claim to be the truth
When there are instances where the McCanns are shown to have been 'less' than truthful, then the whole, "questioning Kate and Gerry's honesty is ludicrous" protestation, becomes non sequitur
Doesn't it ever puzzle you why the SY team (made up from professional experienced police officers) can't see what you can see?
If SY believed that the McCanns lied - they would not have said they are not suspects or even persons of interest. What is your reason for thinking you know more about the McCanns, their friends and this case than they do?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 17, 2014, 01:06:38 AM
Benice, Why are you calling it a forum myth? The source is the hairdresser in the youtube chile documentary footage that according to her came from Pamela Fenn. She could be mistaken but it's a lead worth following up if it hasn't already. If it's not in the files how do you know if it was investigated or not.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 17, 2014, 01:10:16 AM
Doesn't it ever puzzle you why the SY team (made up from professional experienced police officers) can't see what you can see?
If SY believed that the McCanns lied - they would not have said they are not suspects or even persons of interest. What is your reason for thinking you know more about the McCanns, their friends and this case than they do?
Benice, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here, has any idea what Scotland Yard 'see' in this case
Do you really believe they are sharing the details of their on-going multi-million pound investigation with us ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 01:15:06 AM
Benice, Why are you calling it a forum myth? The source is the hairdresser in the youtube footage that according to her came from Pamela Fenn. She could be mistaken but it's a lead worth following up if it hasn't already. If it's not in the files how do you know if it was investigated or not.
If the McCanns and their friends had spent time at Chaplins - there is a large number of people who would have come forward to verify that. No-one has. Where is the witness statement from this person you mention? Where is your common sense?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 17, 2014, 01:17:30 AM
Who said their friends were there? Only the McCann's were mentioned.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 01:21:43 AM
Benice, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else here, has any idea what Scotland Yard 'see' in this case
Do you really believe they are sharing the details of their on-going multi-million pound investigation with us ?
I know there is no way they would make such a statement that 'Neither the McCanns or the people who were with them are either suspects or persons of interest in this case'' if that wasn't the truth. What would they lie? Why would the Oporto team indicate the same? Why not just say nothing?
To think otherwise is venturing so far into the 'Wishful thinking' zone as to qualify as '[ censored word ]s' IMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 01:27:20 AM
Who said their friends were there? Only the McCann's were mentioned.
The McCanns must have been the most recognisable people on the planet considering the press coverage. Do you really believe that not one single person either working at Chaplins or being there as customers would not have recognised them - and come forward? I ask again - where is the common sense?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 17, 2014, 01:37:02 AM
IIRC Mrs Fenn was certain the period she heard crying started at 10.30pm, because the BBC news had just finished on TV? We do not have her statement in the original English, only its Portuguese translation, which says Tuesday. If there was some kind of mistranslation or mixup and it was Wednesday, then the 10.30pm to 11.45pm period she stated would fit very well indeed with the adults being late home Wednesday (tapas barman statement).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 17, 2014, 01:40:17 AM
I know there is no way they would make such a statement that 'Neither the McCanns or the people who were with them are either suspects or persons of interest in this case'' if that wasn't the truth. What would they lie? Why would the Oporto team indicate the same? Why not just say nothing?
To think otherwise is venturing so far into the 'Wishful thinking' zone as to qualify as '[ censored word ]s' IMO.
I don't 'wish' that the McCanns were suspects ... I really don't
When Redwood was asked whether the McCanns ( or their friends ) were on the list of 'persons of interest' he had to respond ... and a "No comment" simply wouldn't have cut it ( there would have been a media frenzy resembling a shark feeding )
Redwood knew that ... and you do too
We simply don't know what is really going on with this investigation at the moment
Quite properly so, in my opinion
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 01:58:21 AM
I don't 'wish' that the McCanns were suspects ... I really don't
When Redwood was asked whether the McCanns ( or their friends ) were on the list of 'persons of interest' he had to respond ... and a "No comment" simply wouldn't have cut it ( there would have been a media frenzy resembling a shark feeding )
Redwood knew that ... and you do too
We simply don't know what is really going on with this investigation at the moment
Quite properly so, in my opinion
There is no way DCI Redwood would have made such an important statement if it wasn't a true one. The idea that he was somehow caught unawares and ''just said that'' is preposterous - he is a professional and the spokesman for SY in this case. He has also made other statements about this case which fully corroborate that statement. How do you account for those?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 02:06:15 AM
IIRC Mrs Fenn was certain the period she heard crying started at 10.30pm, because the BBC news had just finished on TV? We do not have her statement in the original English, only its Portuguese translation, which says Tuesday. If there was some kind of mistranslation or mixup and it was Wednesday, then the 10.30pm to 11.45pm period she stated would fit very well indeed with the adults being late home Wednesday (tapas barman statement).
But that is the night that Rachael Oldfield stayed at home all night in the apartment next door to the McCanns. There is no way IMO that she would not have heard loud crying from next door for such a length of time as is claimed.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 17, 2014, 02:41:22 AM
There is no way DCI Redwood would have made such an important statement if it wasn't a true one. The idea that he was somehow caught unawares and ''just said that'' is preposterous - he is a professional and the spokesman for SY in this case. He has also made other statements about this case which fully corroborate that statement. How do you account for those?
I'm just saying that I don't think it is rational to assume that Scotland Yard are compelled to be entirely 'up-front' about on-going investigations
They are allowed a certain 'latitude' where press briefings are concerned
Quite rightly
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 04:27:01 AM
There are no statements from the Tapas Restaurant staff to say that on one particular evening the McCanns and their friends changed their routine and all left early to go to elsewhere (Chaplins) - because they didn't - it is a forum myth.
This is true, the Tapas staff claimed they would leave between 23:00 and midnight. Mrs McCann said they went back home at 23. Quite different of what Mrs Fenn said. But the most curious is that they must have heard crying, since the crying stopped with the sliding of the door-window. Why didn't they admit this, instead of pretending it was all lie? At that point they didn't know that Mrs Fenn had heard crying from 10:30 on (she used to watch the news that finished at that time, perhaps the crying had started before).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 04:33:56 AM
But that is the night that Rachael Oldfield stayed at home all night in the apartment next door to the McCanns. There is no way IMO that she would not have heard loud crying from next door for such a length of time as is claimed.
Yes, they heard the bathroom noises of each other and there was only a wall between Rachael bed and Madeleine pillow. Mrs Fenn was sure she wasn't home on that evening.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 04:45:08 AM
I know there is no way they would make such a statement that 'Neither the McCanns or the people who were with them are either suspects or persons of interest in this case'' if that wasn't the truth. What would they lie? Why would the Oporto team indicate the same? Why not just say nothing?
To think otherwise is venturing so far into the 'Wishful thinking' zone as to qualify as '[ censored word ]s' IMO.
One shouldn't forget which entity has the authority in this case. The fact the MP reopened the case is perhaps symbolical : the AG report, the only valid document up to now, says clearly that the nature of the crime couldn't be determined. SY's efforts can eventually lead to that determination and then, yes, the AG will have to produce another report. DCI Redwood, though, hasn't yet found evidence to back up the only theory that he was asked to investigate.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 17, 2014, 04:57:39 AM
One shouldn't forget which entity has the authority in this case. The fact the MP reopened the case is perhaps symbolical : the AG report, the only valid document up to now, says clearly that the nature of the crime couldn't be determined. SY's efforts can eventually lead to that determination and then, yes, the AG will have to produce another report. DCI Redwood, though, hasn't yet found evidence to back up the only theory that he was asked to investigate.
Can you clarify what you mean by that, Anne? Was DCI Redwood asked to investigate one particular theory only?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2014, 11:47:48 AM
Totally wasting your time with that one Anne. I've raised the same point several times and it just keeps getting ignored. In this scenario somebody is without doubt deceiving the PJ so the next question is why? What do they stand to gain by hiding the truth?
Anne has a point. I don't think anyone is necessarily lying. Mrs Fenn heard increasingly louder crying and heard a patio door sliding. A child was then missing and I find it quite normal that she made a mental association that it could have been Madeleine. The police do ask for any information however irrelevant you think it might be and it's up to the police to sort it out and double-check, which seemingly didn't happen.
What I find quite plausible is that the increasingly louder sound could actually have been different children crying over the course of the evening (from apartments further away to possibly even the McCann apartment towards the end). Kate did say that Madeleine had woken up after midnight and had gone to their bedroom because Amelie was crying. The last child that she heard crying could have been Amelie if she'd got her timing out by just 15 mins. or so and she might have heard Madeleine calling to Daddy.
There is nothing to say that that is what happened in reality, but I find it a feasible alternative to assuming that anyone was deliberately misleading. If the police had questioned her earlier and more thoroughly, the issue might have been clarified.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 17, 2014, 11:54:28 AM
But that is the night that Rachael Oldfield stayed at home all night in the apartment next door to the McCanns. There is no way IMO that she would not have heard loud crying from next door for such a length of time as is claimed.
This is TUE 1 MAY. Rachael stayed in on WED night. Russ stayed in on TUE.
"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'. Mrs Fenn, the McCanns neighbour, reported that Madeleine had cried for her father between 22.30 and 23.45. The evidence shows that Kate McCann was in Apartment 5A 14 minutes before Madeleine started crying.Tuesday 1st May 2007 is the only night (except, of course, for Thursday 3rd May 2007) that either of the McCanns or any of their friends made calls after dinner."
What I find quite plausible is that the increasingly louder sound could actually have been different children crying over the course of the evening (from apartments further away to possibly even the McCann apartment towards the end).
What I find quite laughable and disingenous is your brazen exchanging Mrs Fenns testimony that the crying came from the floor below her flat to a notion that it was other kids many flats further away and possibly even the Mccanns flat! as IF that was the most unlikely scenario. Towards the end! yes well both theirs and Mrs Fenns were at the end! And no it wasnt kids, it was one chld
Youre better than Mitchell!
@)(++(*
Eta and NO, sayng from the floor below does mean the flat below, it doesnt mean,oh, any old flat in the vicinity
nice try, NO cigar
?>)()<
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 12:14:59 PM
Anne has a point. I don't think anyone is necessarily lying. Mrs Fenn heard increasingly louder crying and heard a patio door sliding. A child was then missing and I find it quite normal that she made a mental association that it could have been Madeleine. The police do ask for any information however irrelevant you think it might be and it's up to the police to sort it out and double-check, which seemingly didn't happen.
What I find quite plausible is that the increasingly louder sound could actually have been different children crying over the course of the evening (from apartments further away to possibly even the McCann apartment towards the end). Kate did say that Madeleine had woken up after midnight and had gone to their bedroom because Amelie was crying. The last child that she heard crying could have been Amelie if she'd got her timing out by just 15 mins. or so and she might have heard Madeleine calling to Daddy.
There is nothing to say that that is what happened in reality, but I find it a feasible alternative to assuming that anyone was deliberately misleading. If the police had questioned her earlier and more thoroughly, the issue might have been clarified.
Good points Carana - Also - Jane Tanner may have returned to her apartment via her patio door at the end of the evening - on 1st May. Why would she walk the long way round - walking past her apartment - up the road, and back across the carpark to go in through the front door - when she could just nip up the pathway and go in through the patio doors? So it could have been JT's patio door that Mrs Fenn heard opening - and it could have been her little girl who stopped crying.
But as you say - all this may well have been clarified if the PJ had interviewed Mrs Fenn as a matter of urgency after 3rd May. A major oversight IMO that they didn't.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 17, 2014, 12:17:17 PM
Good points Carana - Also - Jane Tanner may have returned to her apartment via her patio door at the end of the evening - on 1st May. Why would she walk the long way round - walking past her apartment - up the road, and back across the carpark to go in through the front door - when she could just nip up the pathway and go in through the patio doors? So it could have been JT's patio door that Mrs Fenn heard opening
No, not really, if you read Tanners interview they locked the front and back every single night....so its just assumption and speculation by you, not possiblities or facts
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 17, 2014, 12:23:43 PM
This is TUE 1 MAY. Rachael stayed in on WED night. Russ stayed in on TUE.
I know - I was responding to a post by Pegasus that there may have been a translation error and it could have been the 2nd May not the 1st that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2014, 12:41:05 PM
What I find quite laughable and disingenous is your brazen exchanging Mrs Fenns testimony that the crying came from the floor below her flat to a notion that it was other kids many flats further away and possibly even the Mccanns flat! Towards the end! yes well both theirs and Mrs Fenns were at the end! And no it wasnt kids, it was one chld
@)(++(*
Eta and NO, sayng from the floor below does mean the flat below, it doesnt mean,oh, any old flat in the vicinity
nice try, NO cigar
?>)()<
But there you are assuming that the floor below means the apartment below.
I have lived in a 20+ year-old building before and I know for a fact that sounds do not always come from where you think they do. The acoustics can be quite misleading.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2014, 12:43:40 PM
The door slid closed when the parents returned and not one single parent has ever taken ownership if this situation where they returned to a crying child therefore it has clearly been surpressed. Now who fo we know that likes to keep things surpressed? >@@(*&)
Kind of you to accuse me of a "pathetic twisting of events".
Moving on, which neighbours were actually asked about incidents of children crying that night?
ETA: No one seems to have asked Mrs Fenn if she'd also heard the gates. Wouldn't that be a logical question to ask?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 17, 2014, 12:46:33 PM
But there you are assuming that the floor below means the apartment below.
I have lived in a 20+ year-old building before and I know for a fact that sounds do not always come from where you think they do. The acoustics can be quite misleading.
You were manipulating facts..and trying to cloud issues....welcome to my ignore list Carana
8@??)(
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 12:49:26 PM
No, not really, if you read Tanners interview they locked the front and back every single night....so its just assumption and speculation by you, not possiblities or facts
I'm not claiming anything as 'factual. But common sense dictates that as Russell stayed in that night there was no reason to lock the doors - and so :-
(a) JT may have left for the Tapas - via the patio doors. (6) Returned with Russell's dinner - via the patio doors (c) and made her final journey back to the apartment via those doors?
Would she carry a meal all that long way round - when she had no need to?
I'm not saying that is definitely what happened, but it seems the obvious thing to do IMO. In my experience people will ALWAYS take a shorter route over a longer one if they have the choice.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2014, 12:50:36 PM
You were manipulating facts...welcome to my ignore list Carana
8@??)(
No problems.
Can you show me where I have "manipulated" facts? All I was doing was presenting what I find to be a plausible alternative to the assumption that people are necessarily lying. I don't see the issue. I even said that there is no evidence that my alternative is true, just that I find it plausible. Even more so in the absence of anything more than one elderly lady's statement, taken 3 months after the event, with no corroboration.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 17, 2014, 12:54:28 PM
I'm not claiming anything as 'factual. But common sense dictates that as Russell stayed in that night there was no reason to lock the doors - and so :-
assumptions again
Eta
And why? To somehow prove it wasnt Madeleine crying that night? That Mrs Fenn heard a patio door three flats down and not directly below? OK then, thought she was half deaf by some peoples account anyway!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 17, 2014, 01:04:31 PM
The door slid closed when the parents returned and not one single parent has ever taken ownership if this situation where they returned to a crying child therefore it has clearly been surpressed. Now who fo we know that likes to keep things surpressed? >@@(*&)
But neither the group nor the PJ knew anything about what Mrs. Fenn heard until weeks after 1st May because she wasn't interviewed until then. How could they 'suppress' answers to questions which they were never asked - and claims made which they didn't know anything about.?
Did the PJ ever ask the McCanns or the group about Mrs. Fenns claims? If so - where are the statements? I've never seen any.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 17, 2014, 01:18:24 PM
[So it could have been JT's patio door that Mrs Fenn heard opening - and it could have been her little girl who stopped crying.]
Jane was taking Russell's dinner to him from 8.30 to 10pm not at 11.45. Fenn said the patio door below her which she could hear opening i.e. 5A. Madeleine was heard shouting Daddy, Daddy! Russell was with his children all night.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 02:46:50 PM
I know - I was responding to a post by Pegasus that there may have been a translation error and it could have been the 2nd May not the 1st that Mrs Fenn heard a child crying.
A translation error ? Does Wednesday sound like Tuesday ? The PJ needed an accurate date, Mrs Fenn was sure that she wasn't home on Wednesday evening. She would have remembered hearing cries when she came back home (before 11). Mrs Fenn's statement is indeed an important point, as the AG report shows it. The AG's suggestion that they (globally) weren't checking on their children as often as they pretended is mainly based on Mrs Fenn's statement, confirmed by the fact that none of the waiters observed the pretended regularity. The AG doesn't allude to eventual auditive hallucinations and date confusing (no hearing test was requested). Mrs Fenn mentioned the name of the PDL friend she called on the phone. Why ? Just for the sake of it ?
Some violate graves, attempting to degrade a dead person's sayings is worse (imo).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 02:57:50 PM
Can either Carana or Benice please show me where O'Brien/Tanner, Oldfield or the McCanns (all 3 residing on the floor below) have taken ownership of their child crying upon their return on 1st May 2007? If you cannot do this then one of those 3 sets of parents have deceived the PJ or Mrs Fenn is lying. It is simple logic that you have not yet addressed.
Russell, from his flat, couldn't possibly hear crying in the McCann flat (eventually in the Oldfield one, because the main door was next to his). But when the TP8 came back, either the TP6 heard but kept silent, either they didn't, because the McCanns silenced the child by sliding the door-window before the others were in the car park.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 03:03:02 PM
Did the PJ ever ask the McCanns or the group about Mrs. Fenns claims? If so - where are the statements? I've never seen any.
But it's there, in the files. When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. Vol X, pp. 2539-2551
It is not true that Madeleine had been crying that night for an hour and 15 minutes, because she was not alone all that time. Vol IV pp. 891-903
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 17, 2014, 03:16:33 PM
I'm not claiming anything as 'factual. But common sense dictates that as Russell stayed in that night there was no reason to lock the doors - and so :-
(a) JT may have left for the Tapas - via the patio doors. (6) Returned with Russell's dinner - via the patio doors (c) and made her final journey back to the apartment via those doors?
Would she carry a meal all that long way round - when she had no need to?
I'm not saying that is definitely what happened, but it seems the obvious thing to do IMO. In my experience people will ALWAYS take a shorter route over a longer one if they have the choice.
If you don't slide the door-windows very carefully, they automatically lock, leaving you outside..
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 18, 2014, 02:18:58 AM
I suggested the possibility (which may be wrong) that it might have been Wed (rather than Tue which it says in the files) when Mrs F heard extended crying. I have no evidence to back that up, it is simply that time that noise ended would then match other statements. If it was Wed, then the time when an adult returns home would match in: group statements, barman statement, Mrs F statement.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 18, 2014, 02:27:20 AM
According to the cleaner one of the cots was in the parents bedroom on Wed. That isn't in their statements either.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 18, 2014, 02:27:59 AM
I suggested the possibility (which may be wrong) that it might have been Wed (rather than Tue which it says in the files) when Mrs F heard extended crying. I have no evidence to back that up, it is simply that time that noise ended would then match other statements. If it was Wed, then the time when an adult returns home would match in: group statements, barman statement, Mrs F statement.
Only she was out wednesday wasnt she?
Her statement says she didnt have anything to report for the 2nd as she was home at night
>@@(*&)
Translation error? Missed out a "not"?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
maybe someone who reads portuguese can help here?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 18, 2014, 02:41:05 AM
An example of a date stated correctly in a police interview being transcribed wrongly. Mrs F's niece in her first statement (BTW this is not in the files) told police she saw a man going out a gate on Thursday 3rd May. It got transcribed wrongly as Sunday 29th April. That transcription mistake came to light only in a later police interview (which is in the files) of the same witness. So it can happen.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 18, 2014, 02:58:51 AM
Reading Tramners statement it was very clear her elderly aunt was more compus mentus than she was! At every step of the way! No comparison
So lets stay with the actual words in the pj files for now for mrs fenn re wednesday hey? If some kind portuguese reader can translate
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 18, 2014, 03:10:55 AM
On 22 Aug 2007 a SIC news broadcast and a Correio da Manhã newspaper report both indicate that the date Mrs F heard the crying was one day before the disappearance. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: colombosstogey on January 18, 2014, 06:14:13 AM
On 22 Aug 2007 a SIC news broadcast and a Correio da Manhã newspaper report both indicate that the date Mrs F heard the crying was one day before the disappearance. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2007/12/mrs-fenn-british-press-its-all-rubbish.html
Is this true:
Mrs Fenn has told friends she heard a noise as she watched television and found a man escaping through her bedroom window. Her niece, who was staying with her, also saw the man.
Carol Tranmer wasnt staying with her aunt....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 18, 2014, 09:57:45 AM
FGS Benice - read my previous posts and you will find direct quotes from the McCanns denying it was Madeleine.
Can either Carana or Benice please show me where O'Brien/Tanner, Oldfield or the McCanns (all 3 residing on the floor below) have taken ownership of their child crying upon their return on 1st May 2007? If you cannot do this then one of those 3 sets of parents have deceived the PJ or Mrs Fenn is lying. It is simple logic that you have not yet addressed.
How can you know that ? - the other two families were back in the UK by the time the PJ interviewed Mrs. Fenn. As far as I know they were not asked by the PJ to make further statements about the 1st May as a result of her interview. And IIRC no requests were made from the PJ regarding this 'incident' when the rog statements were made. So when did they deceive the PJ?
However, that does not rule out the possibility that those parents may have spoken with SY about it. SY can talk directly to people who are involved in this case if they think clarification is needed. We cannot do that. Which is why I keep saying SY know vastly more about this case than we do.
Anyone who expects the McCanns or their friends to actually make public statements 'explaining themselves' - every time some random member of the public thinks they have found something which THEY think is 'suspicious' in the files during the last 6 years - is being extremely unrealistic IMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 18, 2014, 10:34:48 AM
How can you know that ? - the other two families were back in the UK by the time the PJ interviewed Mrs. Fenn. As far as I know they were not asked by the PJ to make further statements about the 1st May as a result of her interview. And IIRC no requests were made from the PJ regarding this 'incident' when the rog statements were made. So when did they deceive the PJ?
However, that does not rule out the possibility that those parents may have spoken with SY about it. SY can talk directly to people who are involved in this case if they think clarification is needed. We cannot do that. Which is why I keep saying SY know vastly more about this case than we do.
Anyone who expects the McCanns or their friends to actually make public statements 'explaining themselves' - every time some random member of the public thinks they have found something which THEY think is 'suspicious' in the files during the last 6 years - is being extremely unrealistic IMO.
But the McCann's listened to mystics and apparently followed up 'sightings' from what you describe as random members of the public.
Mrs Fenn does not fall into the category of 'random member of the public' despite Kate's contempt for her (which is understandable as she heard a highly distressed child or person crying in the McCanns apartment for an hour and a quarter one night).
Given the McCann's quite obvious agenda they will want to downplay any reliable witness reports and focus on irrelevant 'sightings' from all over the world. The world is quite a big place so it is fairly safe to assume that there will be no vital clues coming from random places all over the world
On the other hand, the sleepy little Portugese resort where Madeleine met her fate is small. Employees, staff, neighbours, residents and holiday-makers are extremely important witnesses.
Kate has helpfully written in her book how she shouted at Mrs Fenn. In actual fact, it is reported that Mrs Fenn offered to phone the police but Kate said that had already been done.
Which it hadn't. The first of many little.....what shall we call them......
Given that the McCanns and their friends left their children unattended every night, it would hardly be surprising that there would be children crying........it is a perfectly feasible witness statement......I would give it 100% more accuracy than the story that Kate and Gerry came up with......complete with the curtains blowing in the breeze
Isn't it funny how a curtain blowing in the breeze can have more significance (to Kate and Gerry) than a child crying out in distress for an hour and a quarter?
And don't you think it is odd that Kate would shout at a neighbour who offered to help. A neighbour who could potentially be a vital witness. Why did Kate not ask Mrs Fenn if she had noticed anything peculiar? If Mrs Fenn had heard a child crying that night? If there were any sounds of commotion coming from the apartment?
Very peculiar indeed.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 18, 2014, 10:43:25 AM
And don't let's forget that Madeleine DID meet her fate in that sleepy little resort. Even if we are to believe what the McCanns say (does anyone any more - even the McCanns themselves?) that she was abducted by a stranger who was a paedophile that is not a very nice fate.
Therefore, the place to search for clues as to Madeleine's fate is that little resort.
Strange how the McCanns themselves contaminated the crime scene, along with their friends. Yet they blamed the police for that. What happened to all those employees at the Ocean Club - the nannies and so on who would have looked after Madeleine, even, apparently, on the day she disappeared. According to the McCanns she was in the creche that day. Surely those staff would be vital witnesses?
The McCann's are scathing about the Portugese police - yet what did the McCanns do in the hours after Madeleine allegedly was abducted. Kate didn't look for Madeleine that night but nevertheless has the audacity to write, on page 81 of her ghastly book: ' None of them appeared to be doing very much.'
Perhaps they were taking their cue from Madeleine's mother and father who thought it was fine to leave the children on their own and then hatch an absurd little story when disaster strikes.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 18, 2014, 10:49:31 AM
And don't let's forget that Madeleine DID meet her fate in that sleepy little resort. Even if we are to believe what the McCanns say (does anyone any more - even the McCanns themselves?) that she was abducted by a stranger who was a paedophile that is not a very nice fate.
Therefore, the place to search for clues as to Madeleine's fate is that little resort.
Strange how the McCanns themselves contaminated the crime scene, along with their friends. Yet they blamed the police for that. What happened to all those employees at the Ocean Club - the nannies and so on who would have looked after Madeleine, even, apparently, on the day she disappeared. According to the McCanns she was in the creche that day. Surely those staff would be vital witnesses?
The McCann's are scathing about the Portugese police - yet what did the McCanns do in the hours after Madeleine allegedly was abducted. Kate didn't look for Madeleine that night but nevertheless has the audacity to write, on page 81 of her ghastly book: ' None of them appeared to be doing very much.'
Perhaps they were taking their cue from Madeleine's mother and father who thought it was fine to leave the children on their own and then hatch an absurd little story when disaster strikes.
Whipped away within days by MW, so they were beyond the reach of the PJ for further questioning. Understandable, perhaps, from MW's point of view, but unhelpful for those carrying out an investigation.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 18, 2014, 10:58:49 AM
Indeed. I wonder how that was supposed to help find justice for Madeleine? Key witnesses removed from the crime scene. No wonder the Portugese police despaired,
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 18, 2014, 01:16:50 PM
But the McCann's listened to mystics and apparently followed up 'sightings' from what you describe as random members of the public.
Mrs Fenn does not fall into the category of 'random member of the public' despite Kate's contempt for her (which is understandable as she heard a highly distressed child or person crying in the McCanns apartment for an hour and a quarter one night). snipped
You have completely missed the point. The 'random members of the public' I refer to are people like us on Forums etc. some of whom appear to think that because some of the group have not publically issued explanations on scenarios which THEY with hindsight have since decided are suspicious - then that is proof of guilt/deceit on the part of those members of the group. That is a ludicrous suggestion IMO.
There is nothing in the files, as far as I know, to show that any members of the group were interviewed by the PJ at any time about Mrs Fenns claims. That is not proof of 'deceit' by anyone. If since that time they have been interviewed by SY about that incident - then there is no way that would be made public for obvious reasons.
'Deceit' doesn't come into it.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 18, 2014, 01:27:27 PM
Whipped away within days by MW, so they were beyond the reach of the PJ for further questioning. Understandable, perhaps, from MW's point of view, but unhelpful for those carrying out an investigation.
Common sense dictates that it was a decision made because it was asking too much for the nannies to perform their jobs properly in the same place where they had taken care of Madeleine. They would be terribly upset.
I would guess that another reason was because their lives would be made a misery by the Press.
There was nothing to stop them coming back at any stage if required by the PJ for further questioning.
I see nothing sinister in any of that.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 18, 2014, 03:30:55 PM
Reading Tramners statement it was very clear her elderly aunt was more compus mentus than she was! At every step of the way! No comparison
So lets stay with the actual words in the pj files for now for mrs fenn re wednesday hey? If some kind portuguese reader can translate
?{)(** No doubt. There are mistranslations in the files (Mrs Fenn's statement has been checked many times), but at the police station there was a professional interpreter and the statement had to be signed by the stator after having been read and eventually corrected. Finally Mrs Fenn indicated the name of the friend she called on the phone in order for the police to confirm the time. The AG found no motive to doubt Mrs Fenn's statement, in particular concerning the date and time, and that statement is one of the factors that lead to the request for a reconstitution. Which obviously doesn't suit some posters' agenda.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 18, 2014, 03:48:32 PM
So if the incident switches to weds then why have they still not taken ownership of this instance of returning to a crying child? It would have been pretty simple to say "no that must have been the weds, that's the only time all holiday that we returned and he/she was crying"
Exactly. The statement "it isn't true" (whereas it is) illustrates why these parents needed imperatively a spokesperson.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 18, 2014, 03:53:43 PM
Kate is in the apartment on the phone just prior to when Madeleine starts crying for her Daddy. Kate has some serious questions to answer. Why was one cot in their bedroom on WED? Ms Chekaya couldn't remember seeing Kate or DP at the tapas table. It's similar to DP's 6.30 visit. What were the pair of them doing as it's just contradiction after contradiction? Kate said Madeleine was tired and worn out on the day she disappeared (reason for daily routine change so that 6.30-7pm period is vital to this case). Rosdeep said Mikaeel RIP was ill before he disappeared. Time to take the kid gloves off with the Tapas 9.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 18, 2014, 03:59:27 PM
One would hope that the SY team are paying attention to what is emerging north of the border.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 18, 2014, 04:01:43 PM
That's because you're not bothering to read things properly and therefore it is you who have completely missed the point. In Kate's PJ arguido interview she was asked a direct question about the incident to which she replied it was not true. She has since gone on herself to hypothesise regarding the instance and none of her friends came forward to say "actually Kate that was us" so instead it went into her now famous book.
We are talking about a child who went missing. A child who was left alone night after night prior to going missing and you do not consider it relevant or suspicious? What planet are you living on or are you just prepared to defend these people at all costs?
IIRC Your claim is that no-one has 'owned' the fact that it may have been their child who was crying - and that means they deceived the PJ or that Mrs Fenn was lying. My point is that we don't know because there is nothing in the files to tell us. You also seem to think the relevant parents should have made this information - (if it exists) - public. When should they have done that and how and why?
It's obvious they were not asked about the Mrs. Fenn incident in their first interviews with the PJ because no-one knew about it including the PJ until Mrs Fenn was interviewed months later. A serious mistake by the PJ IMO.
It's obvious the PJ didn't ask Leicester Police to bring it up in the Rog. interviews otherwise it would be there for all to see.
There is no witness statement from Mrs. Fenns' friend to corroborate what she said.
If you want to blame anyone for the lack on info on this - then blame the PJ who obviously did not consider the matter as important as they should have done. Maybe you should be asking them what planet they are on.
IMO You are assuming that three months after the event there is no way Mrs. Fenn could have been mistaken about anything when recalling the incident. I disagree because memories are notoriously unreliable and I include the McCanns, and their friends in that known fact.
To claim that either someone is guilty of deceiving the PJ or that Mrs. Fenn lied - just because you are in the dark about all the facts of the situation is unfair IMO.
I don't think anyone lied.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 18, 2014, 04:10:35 PM
The McCann's are scathing about the Portugese police - yet what did the McCanns do in the hours after Madeleine allegedly was abducted. Kate didn't look for Madeleine that night but nevertheless has the audacity to write, on page 81 of her ghastly book: ' None of them appeared to be doing very much.'
?{)(** Mrs McCann didn't lose precious time to look for her daughter because she knew her daughter was out of reach and she writes that the police didn't "appear to be doing very much", because they were around searching instead of charter planes and ships and speedy cars. Isn't that logical ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 18, 2014, 04:17:24 PM
It's obvious the PJ didn't ask Leicester Police to bring it up in the Rog. interviews otherwise it would be there for all to see.
There is no witness statement from Mrs. Fenns' friend to corroborate what she said.
Why do you raise issues that the AG didn't, Benice ? How do you know that Mrs Fenn's friend didn't confirm, not the fact (which would mean she lied), but the time (in case of lapsus of memory) ? This kind of technical confirmation is made on the phone, it's no motive for a statement, Mrs Fenn wasn't an ex-convicted nor a suspect... Are you mistrusting the AG ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 18, 2014, 04:34:01 PM
Why do you raise issues that the AG didn't, Benice ? How do you know that Mrs Fenn's friend didn't confirm, not the fact (which would mean she lied), but the time (in case of lapsus of memory) ? This kind of technical confirmation is made on the phone, it's no motive for a statement, Mrs Fenn wasn't an ex-convicted nor a suspect... Are you mistrusting the AG ?
No I am assuming that if her friend was formally interviewed there would be a statement in the files. As 2 people were involved in this - I would expect both people to be interviewed. Mrs Fenns friend may have remembered something in their conversation which Mrs Fenn may have forgotten after such a long time.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 18, 2014, 04:53:15 PM
No I am assuming that if her friend was formally interviewed there would be a statement in the files. As 2 people were involved in this - I would expect both people to be interviewed. Mrs Fenns friend may have remembered something in their conversation which Mrs Fenn may have forgotten after such a long time.
Mrs Fenn didn't hesitate nor suggest she wasn't sure, so there was no need for a formal interview of her friend, therefore no statement. After all it was just a crying 2 days before the abduction, what could it have to do with it ? For Mrs Fenn it was clearly an event that only would hurt the parents. This is so understandable. Who would have the courage ? When Mrs Fenn spoke, in August, the situation was different : she knew that there was a serious doubt about the abduction and that the dogs had reacted in the flat.
Have you seen in the files written notes saying that Mr X or Mrs Y phoned ? There's none, if the conversation is interesting the witness is asked to come and state. That's what likely happened with Mrs G and the AG found it fine.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 18, 2014, 10:20:02 PM
It may be possible even now to obtain phone records, and look for the 10pm call from witness PF to friend.. Probably landline to landline so its only one phone company to ask. That should determine whether it was Tue 10pm or Wed 10pm.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 18, 2014, 11:15:25 PM
A TV channel in Chile showed a video interview with a hairdresser in PDL who says that Mrs F told her the crying was Tue night. (This is relying on the Spanish subtitles being correct)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 18, 2014, 11:33:30 PM
Yes I posted that interview clip on this thread. She also said they were at Chaplins?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 08:32:10 AM
I don't know because IMO there is not enough information in the public domain to come to a definite conclusion - and there is certainly not enough known to decide that someone must be lying - which was the original point I brought up with you.
I don't think Mrs Fenn lied, but she may remembered something incorrectly.
The McCanns say it wasn't Madeleine because they were home at the time - I don't think they lied either.
IMO If the McCanns had come home to find their daughter deeply distressed, then I don't think they would have carried on with the checking system but would have made different arrangements for their meals - and in any event I certainly don't believe for a second that they would have chosen the very next night to stay out later than usual, as it was on the 2nd May that they all went into the tapas bar after their meal and stayed until around midnight. That makes no sense to me.
I do have my own ideas as to what might have happened - but obviously they are pure speculation.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 19, 2014, 08:38:21 AM
I don't know because IMO there is not enough information in the public domain to come to a definite conclusion - and there is certainly not enough known to decide that someone must be lying - which was the original point I brought up with you.
I don't think Mrs Fenn lied, but she may remembered something incorrectly.
The McCanns say it wasn't Madeleine because they were home at the time - I don't think they lied either.
IMO If the McCanns had come home to find their daughter deeply distressed, then I don't think they would have carried on with the checking system but would have made different arrangements for their meals - and in any event I certainly don't believe for a second that they would have chosen the very next night to stay out later than usual, as it was on the 2nd May that they all went into the tapas bar after their meal and stayed until around midnight. That makes no sense to me.
I do have my own ideas as to what might have happened - but obviously they are pure speculation.
The strange thing is the Maddie crying comments. Almost as if they were meant to suggest that Mrs Fenn had the date wrong.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 08:45:40 AM
The strange thing is the Maddie crying comments. Almost as if they were meant to suggest that Mrs Fenn had the date wrong.
But if the crying incident happened on the 2nd - then Rachael Oldfield would have heard crying - as she was next door for the whole evening.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: j.rob on January 19, 2014, 10:33:27 AM
Not quite sure why it is always other people lying in the McCann case and never the McCanns and their friends. They seem to be happy to go around claiming that anyone who does not agree with them are liars. I suppose it is the classic defence position. You accuse those who do not collude with you of doing what you yourself have done. It is designed to disarm, over-power and confuse. And, don't forget, Gerry likes confusion as: 'non-one knows what's true and what's not'. Well, there it is from the horses mouth.
Whose testimony do the McCanns ignore/cast doubt on/claim are lies.
Mrs Fenn - who Kate shouts at.
Murat - who four of the McCann party claim they saw near the apartment the night Madeleine disappeared. Many other witnesses did not see him that night including the police. He was not there but at home with his mother. Did the four friends of the McCanns who claim he was there have bad eye-sight, collective amnesia or did they lie?
Friends and relatives of the McCanns told the press that the shutters had been broken or jemmied open implying the abductor had forced an entry into the apartment in order to abduct Madeleine. Resort staff refute this. There was no sign of a break-in. So who lied over a break-in?
Jane Tanner, at the earliest stage, claims she saw a suspect with a child. The McCann's and all the group put huge emphasis on this 'sighting' believing he may be Madeleine's abductor. On page 97 Kate writes that what Jane saw 'was in all likelihood Madeleine being carried off. There is no evidence whatsoever for this. Why were the McCanns and their friends so determined to focus on this sighting which the Portugese police always found unconvincing? Were certain people lying in order to advance a story?
A sighting at 10pm by an Irishman which later came to light (and, given that it is given by someone who does not know they McCanns rather than a friend is likely to carry less bias) describes a different looking man with a different appearance carrying a child in a different way. There is no particular reason to think it might be the same man but Kate in her book claims: 'the similarities speak for themselves'. Why would Kate be so keen to suggest that the later sighting by the Irishman was likely to be the same man that Jane Tanner saw. There is no reason to suppose it was, especially as the manner of holding the child was so different.
Kate and Gerry are suing the detective who was taken off the case, Amaral, for libel. Amaral believed that the McCanns covered-up Madeleine's disappearance with a story about an abduction. If you read Kate's book, you can see that their abduction by a stranger story does not carry any weight. There is no logic to it, no evidence for it and the circumstances surrounding it were dramatically embellished by the McCann's and their friends. Yet they claim they were not there when the child disappeared. They cannot have it both ways. They either had nothing to do it and do not know. Or they do have something to do it and do know. They have stuck themselves in a double bind.
Medical records of Madeleine's were with-held from the police. Why?
Kate refused to answer questions put to her by the police. Why?
The apartment was immaculate as though it had been scrubbed clean so few DNA markers. Why?
Why did the McCanns not search for Madeleine throughout the night she disappeared? Other people did.
They and their friends did not come back to do a re-enactment. Why?
Why did Kate leave the twins in the apartment to raise the alarm given that she thought an intruder had taken Madeleine? Her behaviour is not consistent with this belief.
Why did the McCanns not wake up the twins? Check they were okay and not drugged.
The McCanns claim that they thought the abductor could have drugged all the children. Why did they not then have toxicology tests done on the twins? The fact that these were only done when it was too late to get a result and the twins hair was shorter suggests they did not want to find a result and/or their claim that an abductor drugged their children was not true.
I could go on, and many others have, in a similar vein. None of it adds up. The list of people threatened with libel suits by the McCann's via their legal representatives grows longer. There are very many people who do not believe the McCanns version of events. They believe that the McCanns have lied and they are very suspicious of the use of the Fund money.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: a.baker on January 19, 2014, 11:43:22 AM
Brilliant post by j.rob and one I personally fully agree with. No hard evidence but plenty of circumstancial imo. The sad case of Mikaeel Kular tends to prove that if there is no evidence or anybody going into a property and taking a child,and no evidence of that child leaving the property of their own accord,then there really only is one answer?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 19, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Brilliant post by j.rob and one I personally fully agree with. No hard evidence but plenty of circumstancial imo. The sad case of Mikaeel Kular tends to prove that if there is no evidence or anybody going into a property and taking a child,and no evidence of that child leaving the property of their own accord,then there really only is one answer?
+1
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Estuarine on January 19, 2014, 01:55:39 PM
Nice post j.rob take a bow 8@??)(
Re the Tapas 7 and the reconstitution : if you haven't the read the docs on the link it is well worth it when you are short of laughs.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 19, 2014, 04:08:42 PM
The Tapas group said they were checking on their kids every 15/20/30 minutes, "just to make sure no one was crying".....you would think if Mrs Fenn heard this crying for so long that night, one of them would have heard it on their checks either from outside or inside and wondered if it was one of their group which were all housed right close by, but no one mentioned anythng like this...unless they were all in their flats by 10.30 when it started and knew it wasnt one of their own ....when KM said it wasnt Madeleine, did she not think to say,but I did heaR some child crying,but it wasnt Madeleine....if Mrs Fenn heard it and said it was from the floor below well either KM or GM doing their checks, on the floor below,will have heard it better IMO
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on January 19, 2014, 04:20:42 PM
The Tapas group said they were checking on their kids every 15/20/30 minutes, "just to make sure no one was crying".....you would think if Mrs Fenn heard this crying for so long that night, one of them would have heard it on their checks either from outside or inside and wondered if it was one of their group which were all housed right close by, but no one mentioned anythng like this...unless they were all in their flats by 10.30 when it started and knew it wasnt one of their own ....when KM said it wasnt Madeleine, did she not think to say,but I did heaR some child crying,but it wasnt Madeleine....if Mrs Fenn heard it and said it was from the floor below well either KM or GM doing their checks, on the floor below,will have heard it better IMO
Yes, this makes a nonsense of their claim of doing regular checks.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Redblossom on January 19, 2014, 04:38:14 PM
Yes, this makes a nonsense of their claim of doing regular checks.
Quite....and the not hearing anything..and the fact they all decided to play musical chairs every night whilst at the same time trying to have a relaxing dinner and drinks...was the night creche really such a worse idea? Where safety would not be an issue and the worse that could happen is their kids waking up whilst being taken home..oh well
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 05:31:01 PM
It may be possible even now to obtain phone records, and look for the 10pm call from witness PF to friend.. Probably landline to landline so its only one phone company to ask. That should determine whether it was Tue 10pm or Wed 10pm.
Who should do that ? SY ? As if the PJ didn't ? ?{)(**
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 05:35:26 PM
The strange thing is the Maddie crying comments. Almost as if they were meant to suggest that Mrs Fenn had the date wrong.
Yes, it has been long thought that the crying episode, in fact so single that the McCanns mentioned it many times to the PJ, was invented to challenge Mrs Fenn's credibility. And who sees some posters recurrently questioning Mrs Fenn's mental state actually finds this hypothesis plausible. But how could they know that Mrs Fenn had heard a child for 75 minutes ? Alerted MW telling the McCanns is a pure supposition.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 07:52:37 PM
Not quite sure why it is always other people lying in the McCann case and never the McCanns and their friends. They seem to be happy to go around claiming that anyone who does not agree with them are liars. I suppose it is the classic defence position. You accuse those who do not collude with you of doing what you yourself have done. It is designed to disarm, over-power and confuse. And, don't forget, Gerry likes confusion as: 'non-one knows what's true and what's not'. Well, there it is from the horses mouth.
Whose testimony do the McCanns ignore/cast doubt on/claim are lies.
Mrs Fenn - who Kate shouts at.
Murat - who four of the McCann party claim they saw near the apartment the night Madeleine disappeared. Many other witnesses did not see him that night including the police. He was not there but at home with his mother. Did the four friends of the McCanns who claim he was there have bad eye-sight, collective amnesia or did they lie?
Friends and relatives of the McCanns told the press that the shutters had been broken or jemmied open implying the abductor had forced an entry into the apartment in order to abduct Madeleine. Resort staff refute this. There was no sign of a break-in. So who lied over a break-in?
Jane Tanner, at the earliest stage, claims she saw a suspect with a child. The McCann's and all the group put huge emphasis on this 'sighting' believing he may be Madeleine's abductor. On page 97 Kate writes that what Jane saw 'was in all likelihood Madeleine being carried off. There is no evidence whatsoever for this. Why were the McCanns and their friends so determined to focus on this sighting which the Portugese police always found unconvincing? Were certain people lying in order to advance a story?
A sighting at 10pm by an Irishman which later came to light (and, given that it is given by someone who does not know they McCanns rather than a friend is likely to carry less bias) describes a different looking man with a different appearance carrying a child in a different way. There is no particular reason to think it might be the same man but Kate in her book claims: 'the similarities speak for themselves'. Why would Kate be so keen to suggest that the later sighting by the Irishman was likely to be the same man that Jane Tanner saw. There is no reason to suppose it was, especially as the manner of holding the child was so different.
Kate and Gerry are suing the detective who was taken off the case, Amaral, for libel. Amaral believed that the McCanns covered-up Madeleine's disappearance with a story about an abduction. If you read Kate's book, you can see that their abduction by a stranger story does not carry any weight. There is no logic to it, no evidence for it and the circumstances surrounding it were dramatically embellished by the McCann's and their friends. Yet they claim they were not there when the child disappeared. They cannot have it both ways. They either had nothing to do it and do not know. Or they do have something to do it and do know. They have stuck themselves in a double bind.
Medical records of Madeleine's were with-held from the police. Why?
Kate refused to answer questions put to her by the police. Why?
The apartment was immaculate as though it had been scrubbed clean so few DNA markers. Why?
Why did the McCanns not search for Madeleine throughout the night she disappeared? Other people did.
They and their friends did not come back to do a re-enactment. Why?
Why did Kate leave the twins in the apartment to raise the alarm given that she thought an intruder had taken Madeleine? Her behaviour is not consistent with this belief.
Why did the McCanns not wake up the twins? Check they were okay and not drugged.
The McCanns claim that they thought the abductor could have drugged all the children. Why did they not then have toxicology tests done on the twins? The fact that these were only done when it was too late to get a result and the twins hair was shorter suggests they did not want to find a result and/or their claim that an abductor drugged their children was not true.
I could go on, and many others have, in a similar vein. None of it adds up. The list of people threatened with libel suits by the McCann's via their legal representatives grows longer. There are very many people who do not believe the McCanns version of events. They believe that the McCanns have lied and they are very suspicious of the use of the Fund money.
In view of the above - do you not wonder why SY have ruled the McCanns out as suspects and believe an abduction took place? There must be a reason why they don't see things your way?
Could it be because the myths, disinformation, rumour, distorted facts etc etc which have been woven into this case since 2007 are simply of no interest to them - no matter how many times members of the public choose to repeat them - and that they already know the answers to the questions you ask and are quite satisfied with them?
You would think that if the McCanns and their friends were the prolific liars you seem to think they are that at least one of them would have been 'exposed' by a professional team of experienced policemen whose whole time is dedicated to this one case - and yet after studying the evidence and no doubt having interviewed those people, they have apparently come to the opposite conclusion.
So who is right - you or SY? It's no contest IMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 08:13:23 PM
In view of the above - do you not wonder why SY have ruled the McCanns out as suspects and believe an abduction took place? There must be a reason why they don't see things your way?
Benice, unless you're able to provide a reliable source for SY stating that the abduction was a fact, isn't it better to keep speaking of a disappearance ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 08:28:02 PM
Benice, unless you're able to provide a reliable source for SY stating that the abduction was a fact, isn't it better to keep speaking of a disappearance ?
DCI Redwood is the source of that belief. How more reliable can you get?
Can you provide evidence that SY does NOT believe Madeleine was abducted?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 08:29:45 PM
You would think that if the McCanns and their friends were the prolific liars you seem to think they are that at least one of them would have been 'exposed' by a professional team of experienced policemen whose whole time is dedicated to this one case - and yet after studying the evidence and no doubt having interviewed those people, they have apparently come to the opposite conclusion.
Can you provide a reliable source for this, Benice ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 08:35:30 PM
DCI Redwood is the source of that belief. How more reliable can you get?
Can you provide evidence that SY does NOT believe Madeleine was abducted?
@)(++(* No ! On the belief topic, there's no evidence possible ! You know perfectly that DCI Redwood never stated that Madeleine was abducted. If he believes so, good for him, but it's a belief, not a fact. You have an unfortunate tendency to present it as a fact, for instance by recurrently speaking of abduction instead of disappearance, which is the only known fact, up to now. I find it unfair.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 08:44:23 PM
Can you provide a reliable source for this, Benice ?
No I can't Anne, but common sense dictates that interviewing the McCanns and their friends in person, face to face, would be the first thing the policeman in charge of the case and other senior members of the team would want to do. Can you think of any reason why he would want to avoid doing that? What benefit to the case would there be in NOT personally interviewing people who you need to satisfy yourself are credible witnesses? I'm also sure SY will have interviewed the FLO's and the trauma counsellors as well - and for the same reason.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 08:57:07 PM
@)(++(* No ! On the belief topic, there's no evidence possible ! You know perfectly that DCI Redwood never stated that Madeleine was abducted. If he believes so, good for him, but it's a belief, not a fact. You have an unfortunate tendency to present it as a fact, for instance by recurrently speaking of abduction instead of disappearance, which is the only known fact, up to now. I find it unfair.
Not true. Read my posts again. I have used the word 'belief' - you have used the word 'fact'.
Quote from DCI Redwood
''We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timelines and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive'' End quote.
DCI Redwood has also said that although they believe Madeleine was abducted, they do not know whether she is still alive or not as a result of that abduction.
The Crimewatch programme was all about 'abduction'.
Please provide your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 09:25:18 PM
Not true. Read my posts again. I have used the word 'belief' - you have used the word 'fact'.
Quote from DCI Redwood
''We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timelines and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive'' End quote.
DCI Redwood has also said that although they believe Madeleine was abducted, they do not know whether she is still alive or not as a result of that abduction.
The Crimewatch programme was all about 'abduction'.
Please provide your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
I didn't say that you used the word "fact', Benice, I know your tricks ! You insinuate that it's a fact, since DCI Redwood said it. Now your extending the belief from RW to SY ! Bravo ! How can we debate seriously, Benice, on beliefs instead of facts ? Are you interested in debating or will you never change your conviction, based on beliefs ?
No belief can be proved, that is the definition of a belief.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 09:44:37 PM
No I can't Anne, but common sense dictates that interviewing the McCanns and their friends in person, face to face, would be the first thing the policeman in charge of the case and other senior members of the team would want to do. Can you think of any reason why he would want to avoid doing that? What benefit to the case would there be in NOT personally interviewing people who you need to satisfy yourself are credible witnesses? I'm also sure SY will have interviewed the FLO's and the trauma counsellors as well - and for the same reason.
I agree with you, Benice, that it was the first thing SY was expected to do. Seizing the case where the AG report had left it. But I don't think they did. I think that if they had done this, DCI Redwood had affirmed "the group was re-interviewed and we can say that they played no part in Madeleine's abduction". Or, better, "in Madeleine's disappearance". The public didn't need more. The McCann had played no part, fine. Let's clear our minds. I know what you'll object. You'll say that SCI RW couldn't be as affirmative as that, because he has no authority on the case, he then had to be vague, allowing people like you, though, to read between lines. That's true. But do you think the British public would remember that ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on January 19, 2014, 10:20:06 PM
I didn't say that you used the word "fact', Benice, I know your tricks ! You insinuate that it's a fact, since DCI Redwood said it. Now your extending the belief from RW to SY ! Bravo ! How can we debate seriously, Benice, on beliefs instead of facts ? Are you interested in debating or will you never change your conviction, based on beliefs ?
No belief can be proved, that is the definition of a belief.
I do not do 'tricks'. Please stop being so rude.
When you can provide evidence that DCI Redwood/ SY do NOT believe an abduction took place I will refer to Madeleine's disappearance as a 'disappearance'. Until then as far as I am concerned Madeleine was abducted and the FACT that it has been publically stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are either suspects or persons of interest in this case, further confirms to me that it is the crime of abduction which is being investigated by SY.
Please provide your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on January 19, 2014, 10:28:33 PM
When you can provide evidence that DCI Redwood/ SY do NOT believe an abduction took place I will refer to Madeleine's disappearance as a 'disappearance'. Until then as far as I am concerned Madeleine was abducted and the FACT that it has been publically stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are either suspects or persons of interest in this case, further confirms to me that it is the crime of abduction which is being investigated by SY.
Please provide your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said he believed she [Madeleine] was abducted by a stranger, adding that there were 195 "investigative opportunities".
Redwood said he "genuinely" believed Madeleine could be alive, though the team is following an equal line of inquiry that she might now be dead.
I agree with you, Benice, that it was the first thing SY was expected to do. Seizing the case where the AG report had left it. But I don't think they did. I think that if they had done this, DCI Redwood had affirmed "the group was re-interviewed and we can say that they played no part in Madeleine's abduction". Or, better, "in Madeleine's disappearance". The public didn't need more. The McCann had played no part, fine. Let's clear our minds. I know what you'll object. You'll say that SCI RW couldn't be as affirmative as that, because he has no authority on the case, he then had to be vague, allowing people like you, though, to read between lines. That's true. But do you think the British public would remember that ?
Vague?? DCI Redwoods statements are as clear and unambiguous as they could possibly be. They could not BE more straightforward. They are the complete opposite of vague.
Please produce your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 10:39:12 PM
When you can provide evidence that DCI Redwood/ SY do NOT believe an abduction took place I will refer to Madeleine's disappearance as a 'disappearance'. Until then as far as I am concerned Madeleine was abducted and the FACT that it has been publically stated that neither the McCanns nor their friends are either suspects or persons of interest in this case, further confirms to me that it is the crime of abduction which is being investigated by SY.
Please provide your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
"I'm sorry" will be my last word. I didn't intend to be rude.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 19, 2014, 10:53:18 PM
Vague?? DCI Redwoods statements are as clear and unambiguous as they could possibly be. They could not BE more straightforward. They are the complete opposite of vague.
Please produce your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
You find it clear, I find it vague, it's your right and it's my right. Since DCI RW never said he interviewed the group, it's just speculation from your part. It's common sense, therefore he did it ! ?{)(** I've already answered, Benice, as far as beliefs and not facts are mentioned, no evidence is possible. You can't provide evidence God exists and I can't provide evidence he doesn't. You just believe he exists and I believe he doesn't. Has DCI Redwood only read the AG report ? Do you think he did ? Because if he had, his "belief" should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 19, 2014, 11:01:56 PM
Vague?? DCI Redwoods statements are as clear and unambiguous as they could possibly be. They could not BE more straightforward. They are the complete opposite of vague.
Please produce your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
They may well believe it (though it has never been stated officially i.e. in writing) but they need evidence.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lyall on January 19, 2014, 11:23:35 PM
Vague?? DCI Redwoods statements are as clear and unambiguous as they could possibly be. They could not BE more straightforward. They are the complete opposite of vague.
Please produce your evidence that SY do NOT believe an abduction took place.
Of course his statements are clear and unambiguous when he's appearing on TV. That's because what he says to a TV reporter matters only to TV (and to the papers). He knows he can say anything to them: it's not binding in any way; it's not official.
It's totally different when words have to be put in writing in reports etc.: then it's final, it's history.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 20, 2014, 12:41:55 AM
Daily Mail 31st August 2007
Quote
Madeleine: Top policeman insists McCanns are 'victims not suspects'
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa confirmed today that Gerry and Kate McCann are not under suspicion for their daughter's vanishing on 3 May and described them as "victims". "The McCanns are not suspects. They are victims and witnesses," he said.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 20, 2014, 12:57:43 AM
Yes Gerry "Renowned Dog Expert" McCann and Kate "Squeaky Clean Cuddle Cat" McCann are victims not suspects according to the police 8)-)))
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on January 20, 2014, 01:46:29 AM
It would be easy for SY to ask CT on which date aunt heard crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 20, 2014, 10:35:15 AM
Does the investigation end or do the politics end to enable them to shift the focus onto the McCann's?
The investigation will have to end one day, up to the end of this year perhaps. A shifting of the focus doesn't sound plausible, it would admit that the work wasn't done in the proper order (i.e starting at the point clearly indicated in the AG report), putting the PM and SY in a delicate position.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 14, 2014, 05:01:49 AM
In her book Kate discredits Mrs Fenn, the upstairs neighbour
For some reason Kate completely ignores ( in her book ) the very important point that Mrs Fenn said Madeleine was crying for an hour and a quarter one night ... a claim that brought into question the 'checking regime'
Instead, Kate ( in her book ) chooses to mock Mrs Fenn's 'plummy accent' and remarks upon her inappropraite response on being told that Madeleine had been 'abducted'
I can't help but draw a comparison between Kate's scathing dismissal of Mrs Fenn and her mocking dismissal of the priest
It's as though anyone who poses any 'problem' is automatically under attack
That's how it's appearing to me anyway
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 14, 2014, 05:19:40 AM
In her book Kate similarly discredits Mrs Fenn, the upstairs neighbour
For some reason Kate completely ignores ( in her book ) the very important point that Mrs Fenn said Madeleine was crying for an hour and a quarter one night ... a claim that brought into question the 'checking regime'
Instead, Kate ( in her book ) chooses to mock Mrs Fenn's 'plummy accent' and remarks upon her inappropraite response on being told that Madeleine had been 'abducted'
I can't help but draw a comparison between Kate's scathing dismissal of Mrs Fenn and her mocking dismissal of the priest
It's as though anyone who poses any 'problem' is automatically under attack
That's how it's appearing to me anyway
They've similarly maligned Amaral, all while launching punitive litigatons and vehemently protesting if anyone else so much as looks sideways at their behaviour.
Don't forget their own investigating agency was sent a "cease and desist" letter when they presented Smithman to Team McCann, who then proceeded to bury him and mislead all of us for the next 6 years.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2014, 08:56:44 AM
In her book Kate similarly discredits Mrs Fenn, the upstairs neighbour
For some reason Kate completely ignores ( in her book ) the very important point that Mrs Fenn said Madeleine was crying for an hour and a quarter one night ... a claim that brought into question the 'checking regime'
Instead, Kate ( in her book ) chooses to mock Mrs Fenn's 'plummy accent' and remarks upon her inappropraite response on being told that Madeleine had been 'abducted'
I can't help but draw a comparison between Kate's scathing dismissal of Mrs Fenn and her mocking dismissal of the priest
It's as though anyone who poses any 'problem' is automatically under attack
That's how it's appearing to me anyway
Yet another forum myth.
In her statement in the files Mrs Fenn said she heard a child. There were many families in the resort with children. Indeed the files record that Jez Wilkins child was howling it's wee head off and could not be pacified on one occasion, and that is why he was prowling the streets with the child in the pram in a well publicised other occasion.
However, Mrs Fenn has rubbished the allegation that Madeleine had cried continually and is quoted by the Daily Mail as doing so ...
"Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Apparently there was also a video in existence of Mrs Fenn saying exactly the same in an ITN news report ... I cannot provide a link to it ... but there are comments in existence from people who have viewed it.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2014, 10:02:28 AM
In her statement in the files Mrs Fenn said she heard a child. There were many families in the resort with children. Indeed the files record that Jez Wilkins child was howling it's wee head off and could not be pacified on one occasion, and that is why he was prowling the streets with the child in the pram in a well publicised other occasion.
However, Mrs Fenn has rubbished the allegation that Madeleine had cried continually and is quoted by the Daily Mail as doing so ...
"Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Apparently there was also a video in existence of Mrs Fenn saying exactly the same in an ITN news report ... I cannot provide a link to it ... but there are comments in existence from people who have viewed it.
I've been though this before so I'm not doing it again. Pamela Fenn in her statement clearly thought it was Madeleine crying for her daddy.
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
"She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle. She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
I've been though this before so I'm not doing it again. Pamela Fenn in her statement clearly thought it was Madeleine crying for her daddy.
"She also refers to the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted ?Daddy, Daddy?, the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
"She said that until that night she had never spoken to the McCann's, because up until the 3rd May, she only sometimes saw them walking in the street. She never saw them with any vehicle. She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
Yeah and that was the same statement where it is recorded ...
When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence.
However earlier in the statement it is recorded that Mrs Fenn also said ~ On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Just a bit confusing and enough to make one wonder what is on the original DVD. Either she saw a strange person, or she didn't, but IMO the one sentence contradicts the other in the same statement ... so what other anomalies might there be?
So you stick with your myth if it keeps you happy, I will go with the Daily Mail interview where it was stated ~ But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on May 14, 2014, 07:38:53 PM
She also counter signed the police statement. Did she counter sign the report in the Mail?
Well she is not on record for suing them which could have been expected had they printed anything she disapproved of ... unless you can provide a cite stating otherwise?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2014, 09:14:07 PM
Well she is not on record for suing them which could have been expected had they printed anything she disapproved of ... unless you can provide a cite stating otherwise?
Her statement is not contradictory. She didn't see anything unusual. Her niece saw that not her.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 14, 2014, 09:45:37 PM
The attempts to smear everyone BUT the McCanns are becoming increasingly desperate and obvious.
We don't NEED the (now deceased) Mrs Fenn.
The McCanns themselves told us Madeleine woke alone and cried.
Mrs Fenn said it was for over an hour. I have no reason to dispute that, unlike some who are bending themselves to and fro to explain the TRUTH.
If I hear the word "myth" one more time....! The only mythical thing about this mess is the actions and words of the Tapas, which remain unexamined after 7 years. Well, they were unexamined....now Andy has popped up and told us Tannerman is the myth that has distracted everyone for 7 years.
Everyone except those like Amaral and myself, who can smell lies at 50 paces.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 14, 2014, 10:05:57 PM
The attempts to smear everyone BUT the McCanns are becoming increasingly desperate and obvious.
We don't NEED the (now deceased) Mrs Fenn.
The McCanns themselves told us Madeleine woke alone and cried.
Mrs Fenn said it was for over an hour. I have no reason to dispute that, unlike some who are bending themselves to and fro to explain the TRUTH.
If I hear the word "myth" one more time....! The only mythical thing about this mess is the actions and words of the Tapas, which remain unexamined after 7 years. Well, they were unexamined....now Andy has popped up and told us Tannerman is the myth that has distracted everyone for 7 years.
Everyone except those like Amaral and myself, who can smell lies at 50 paces.
The only reason that the late Mrs Fenn is maligned is because of the stark reality that if what she says is true, then, consequently, what the McCanns say can't be true ... either the children were left alone and crying for over an hour, or they were not
The way I see it, there is simply no logical reason for Mrs Fenn to have told the police something that was not true
The McCanns, however, might be seen to have had a very significant reason for being untruthful about the length of the periods their children were left unattended ( fear of neglect charges )
It is not rational to disbelieve Mrs Fenn ( who had no motive to lie ) whilst believing the McCanns ( who did have a motive to lie )
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Moderator on May 15, 2014, 10:37:57 AM
Yet another example as to why anything one reads in the media should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Even if the reporter had taken down every single word verbatim, there is no reason for Mrs Fenn to have told them what really happened. The police statement however is another matter, I know which one I would put my money on.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2014, 10:57:06 AM
Her statement is not contradictory. She didn't see anything unusual. Her niece saw that not her.
Mrs Fenn stated that nothing unusual had happened around apartment 5a ... except for a man staring through the window.
Hmmm ???
If that was not an unusual occurence ... it would not have been reported to the police.
Mrs Fenn had suffered a home invasion, the intruder gaining entry via a window, and her neice was naturally concerned when she saw a suspicious person. There is nothing in the statement to indicate Mrs Fenn did not see him too, that is your inference.
However it still makes Mrs Fenn's statement contradictory. What a pity it was neither videod or audio recorded.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2014, 12:24:14 PM
Mrs Fenn stated that nothing unusual had happened around apartment 5a ... except for a man staring through the window.
Hmmm ???
If that was not an unusual occurence ... it would not have been reported to the police.
Mrs Fenn had suffered a home invasion, the intruder gaining entry via a window, and her neice was naturally concerned when she saw a suspicious person. There is nothing in the statement to indicate Mrs Fenn did not see him too, that is your inference.
However it still makes Mrs Fenn's statement contradictory. What a pity it was neither videod or audio recorded.
She didn't see that man 8-)(--) Her niece Carole told her about the man looking after Madeleine's disappearance (see below) so Pamela Fenn is not being contradictory. She is telling the truth that she saw nothing herself unusual up to 3 May.
"We were all seated on the terrace and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such. We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror." (Carole Tranmer)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on May 15, 2014, 12:37:43 PM
There is no confusion Sadie. Every member of the tapas-7 stated in their statements that they exited their apartment via the front door. Their back door/patio door was snib locked from the inside.
Kate had to admit to Madeleine being distressed at having been left alone since she had mentioned it to one of the others. Since Mrs Fenn was out on the evening of 2nd May we can deduce that the crying incident occurred on Tuesday 1st May. I wonder if the reason Mrs Fenn went out on the Wednesday night was to get away from a possible repeat of the previous nights crying? Crying which was so bad that Mrs Fenn had to seek advice from her friend by telephone as to whether she should interfere and call reception. Little wonder therefore that Mrs Fenn was somewhat short wth Kate McCann on the Thursday night when she was dsturbed yet again by the family below. I am quite sure she must have thought to herself - here we go again!
Leaving three young children alone in a ground floor holiday apartment with an unlocked door on one occasion could be classed as stupid but to do so every night was borderline idiocy.
One of the McCann's friends was looking after his sick daughter, he could have gone out onto the balcony for a read or just to sit and maybe fallen asleep.
The child was calling Daddy, to me I would immediately think that it was just the father there, he could then have gone inside [Mrs. Fenn hearing him shut his patio door]
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2014, 12:57:18 PM
One of the McCann's friends was looking after his sick daughter, he could have gone out onto the balcony for a read or just to sit and maybe fallen asleep.
The child was calling Daddy, to me I would immediately think that it was just the father there, he could then have gone inside [Mrs. Fenn hearing him shut his patio door]
Rachel Oldfield stayed in on Wed 2nd and heard no crying next door but Kate claimed at the table on the night her daughter disappeared that Madeleine said why didn't you come when me and Sean were crying last night? If that happened god knows how Rachel didn't hear it i.e. her bedroom being next door to the kids room.
"I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn’t hear any, well you know, I didn’t hear anything." (RO)
Madeleine crying for her daddy doesn't mean he's there but Kate using her mobile many times before Pamela 'plummy voice' Fenn reported the crying to have commenced at 10:30 is interesting >@@(*&)
"At around 8.45pm on Tuesday 1st May 2007, Miss Nejoua Chekeya, the Ocean Clubs busty Aerobics Instructor, held a 'Quiz Night' and was later invited, allegedly by Gerald McCann, to join his table which she did sometime between 9.30pm and 9.50pm. She did not say how long she had remained with them, but she is not the sort of woman men would wish see to leave too quickly. Miss Chekeya stated that one dinner setting was unused and that she could not remember seeing Kate McCann."
"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'."
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2014, 01:08:40 PM
She didn't see that man 8-)(--) She saw nothing unusual up to 3 May. Her niece told her about the man looking after Madeleine's disappearance (see below) so Pamela Fenn is not being contradictory. She is telling the truth that she saw nothing herself unusual.
"We were all seated on the terrace and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible). I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such. We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror." (Carole Tranmer)
I have stated what was recorded in Mrs Fenn's statement as recorded in the PJ files which are published online.
IMO there are two contradictions within that statement.
It should also be noted that the statement records ~ On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Was that actually the date when her niece visited?
If you read further from the statement made in Britain after a bit of forensic questioning ~ Mrs Tranmer realised she was mistaken in the date given and recorded by Mrs Fenn in her statement. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on May 15, 2014, 04:07:28 PM
Rachel Oldfield stayed in on Wed 2nd and heard no crying next door but Kate claimed at the table on the night her daughter disappeared that Madeleine said why didn't you come when me and Sean were crying last night? If that happened god knows how Rachel didn't hear it i.e. her bedroom being next door to the kids room.
"I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didn’t hear any, well you know, I didn’t hear anything." (RO)
Madeleine crying for her daddy doesn't mean he's there but Kate using her mobile many times before Pamela 'plummy voice' Fenn reported the crying to have commenced at 10:30 is interesting >@@(*&)
"At around 8.45pm on Tuesday 1st May 2007, Miss Nejoua Chekeya, the Ocean Clubs busty Aerobics Instructor, held a 'Quiz Night' and was later invited, allegedly by Gerald McCann, to join his table which she did sometime between 9.30pm and 9.50pm. She did not say how long she had remained with them, but she is not the sort of woman men would wish see to leave too quickly. Miss Chekeya stated that one dinner setting was unused and that she could not remember seeing Kate McCann."
"Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'."
Kate McCann did say that Mrs. Fenn couldn't have heard Madeleine crying on Tuesday night because she was there.
Kate McCann also said that Amelie was crying around about 12 o'clock and that Madeleine came in to say that she was crying. I think it was that night Madeleine had been talking about when she said 'why didn't you come when we were crying' Amelie was crying woke Madeleine and Sean and they were crying for someone to come in to see to Amelie.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2014, 06:30:18 PM
Kate McCann did say that Mrs. Fenn couldn't have heard Madeleine crying on Tuesday night because she was there.
Kate McCann also said that Amelie was crying around about 12 o'clock and that Madeleine came in to say that she was crying. I think it was that night Madeleine had been talking about when she said 'why didn't you come when we were crying' Amelie was crying woke Madeleine and Sean and they were crying for someone to come in to see to Amelie.
The cleaner who came in on WED said there was a cot in the parent's bedroom. Another anomaly >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 15, 2014, 07:58:05 PM
It has been pointed out that a three year old would NEVER say -
"why didn't you come when we cried?"
A three year old would say "why didn't you come when I cried?"
Three year olds are not concerned with the crying of anyone else but themselves, so this statement is thought to be inaccurate.
Indeed, I know seven and eight year olds who would've said "I" not "we".
Three year olds are only just becoming aware of "us" and "we", little egoists they are, but they actually use "me" or "I".
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 15, 2014, 08:09:03 PM
I have stated what was recorded in Mrs Fenn's statement as recorded in the PJ files which are published online.
IMO there are two contradictions within that statement.
It should also be noted that the statement records ~ On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Was that actually the date when her niece visited?
If you read further from the statement made in Britain after a bit of forensic questioning ~ Mrs Tranmer realised she was mistaken in the date given and recorded by Mrs Fenn in her statement. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
I can't see anything wrong with Mrs Fenn's statement, in fact I find it somewhat lucid.
She clearly identifies a child crying on the Tuesday night, going out to her friend Edna Glyn on the Wednesday and of meeting with the Tranmers on Thursday morning. Carole Tranmer for her part confirms the visit on the Thursday, of going for a meal to Lagos thereafter returning to 5g where she saw a man exit from the last gate belonging to the ground floor apartments into the private alley which ran along the bottom of the gardens. She states that they left Mrs Fenn around 6.30pm.
It should be noted that the McCann's apartment (5a) did not exit onto the private alley but directly onto the public road. Thus the man Mrs Tranmer saw did not exit from the McCann's apartment even though she initially thought he had done so.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2014, 12:03:30 AM
I can't see anything wrong with Mrs Fenn's statement, in fact I find it somewhat lucid.
She clearly identifies a child crying on the Tuesday night, going out to her friend Edna Glyn on the Wednesday and of meeting with the Tranmers on Thursday morning. Carole Tranmer for her part confirms the visit on the Thursday, of going for a meal to Lagos thereafter returning to 5g where she saw a man exit from the last gate belonging to the ground floor apartments into the private alley which ran along the bottom of the gardens. She states that they left Mrs Fenn around 6.30pm.
It should be noted that the McCann's apartment (5a) did not exit onto the private alley but directly onto the public road. Thus the man Mrs Tranmer saw did not exit from the McCann's apartment even though she initially thought he had done so.
I’m not implying that Mrs Fenn was anything other than lucid, and I hope you don’t think that.
From the little I have read about her she seems to have been a feisty lady in full possession of her mental faculties although suffering some frailty. This caused her son some concern about the unwarranted media spotlight she found herself under.
It is not what Mrs Fenn said when interviewed, it is the way it has been recorded in the files posted on the internet.
The contradiction lies in her saying nothing unusual had occurred then further on the behaviour of the man seen by her neice being so furtive it was reported to the police.
I do not think scribing her statement from English to Portuguese then from Portuguese back to English has helped.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 12:55:14 AM
I’m not implying that Mrs Fenn was anything other than lucid, and I hope you don’t think that.
From the little I have read about her she seems to have been a feisty lady in full possession of her mental faculties although suffering some frailty. This caused her son some concern about the unwarranted media spotlight she found herself under.
It is not what Mrs Fenn said when interviewed, it is the way it has been recorded in the files posted on the internet.
The contradiction lies in her saying nothing unusual had occurred then further on the behaviour of the man seen by her neice being so furtive it was reported to the police.
I do not think scribing her statement from English to Portuguese then from Portuguese back to English has helped.
Sorry Brietta, I think you probably misunderstood my comment. I was referring to the statement being lucid, not Mrs Fenn.
My interpretation of her comment about nothing out of the ordinary happening is that she meant from her own experience that day. It was her niece Carole who saw the man leaving by the garden gate but she appears not to have made any issue about it at the time, only later when she found out about the disappearance did she think it significant. Remember too that Carole thought the man left from 5a but this was not the case.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on May 16, 2014, 11:57:14 AM
Sorry Brietta, I think you probably misunderstood my comment. I was referring to the statement being lucid, not Mrs Fenn.
My interpretation of her comment about nothing out of the ordinary happening is that she meant from her own experience that day. It was her niece Carole who saw the man leaving by the garden gate but she appears not to have made any issue about it at the time, only later when she found out about the disappearance did she think it significant. Remember too that Carole thought the man left from 5a but this was not the case.
I've read it again John and see what you are getting at ... but I still believe Mrs Fenn did not say it was Madeleine she heard whatever is in the file.
I remember seeing a TV item at the time where she refuted saying so [ possibly ITN news], only after the case had been archived I think in accordance with Portuguese secrecy laws. I have a firm recollection of her son's concern about the effect it was all having on his mum's health and wellbeing, so I think she 'went public' in an effort to put the seal on it and stop intrusive [to her] speculation.
At one time the video clip could be found on the net, but alas no longer. Which is a pity because modern analysis would have determined once and for all what she actually said.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 04:06:01 PM
I've read it again John and see what you are getting at ... but I still believe Mrs Fenn did not say it was Madeleine she heard whatever is in the file.
I remember seeing a TV item at the time where she refuted saying so [ possibly ITN news], only after the case had been archived I think in accordance with Portuguese secrecy laws. I have a firm recollection of her son's concern about the effect it was all having on his mum's health and wellbeing, so I think she 'went public' in an effort to put the seal on it and stop intrusive [to her] speculation.
At one time the video clip could be found on the net, but alas no longer. Which is a pity because modern analysis would have determined once and for all what she actually said.
I think she was warned not to say too much for obvious reasons. We can be sure the police statements are more or less an accurate account of events.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Angelo222 on May 16, 2014, 04:27:48 PM
I think she was warned not to say too much for obvious reasons. We can be sure the police statements are more or less an accurate account of events.
Pamela Fenn didn't have to state it was Madeleine who cried on the Tuesday night for over an hour. Madeleine allegedly told her mother on the morning of the day she disappeared that she had cried and called for daddy. Question is did it happen on two consecutive nights and did someone prowling about hear it to and took it as an invitation??
The crying for well over an hour is proof that the claimed half hour checks were a fabrication after the fact.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 16, 2014, 04:31:49 PM
Mrs Fenn's statement was not taken until 2nd Aug 2007, by Joao Carlos (he of the Smith's statement) Doesn't the timing of that strike odd......just as the dogs are going in.......and not right after Madeleine went missing? The interpreter was Uvue van Loock (very English name). Sadly for Mrs Fenn, her phone number & passport details, etc were not even blanked out of the files released to the public.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Victoria on May 16, 2014, 04:37:29 PM
Mrs Fenn's statement was not taken until 2nd Aug 2007, by Joao Carlos (he of the Smith's statement) Doesn't the timing of that strike odd......just as the dogs are going in.......and not right after Madeleine went missing? The interpreter was Uvue van Loock (very English name). Sadly for Mrs Fenn, her phone number & passport details, etc were not even blanked out of the files released to the public.
Seems that each and every part of the original investigation was bungled in one way or another.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 04:40:29 PM
Mrs Fenn's statement was not taken until 2nd Aug 2007, by Joao Carlos (he of the Smith's statement) Doesn't the timing of that strike odd......just as the dogs are going in.......and not right after Madeleine went missing? The interpreter was Uvue van Loock (very English name). Sadly for Mrs Fenn, her phone number & passport details, etc were not even blanked out of the files released to the public.
And yet her niece was interviewed and a statement taken on 8 May 2007, just 4 days after Madeleine disappeared. A statement which was never released to the public.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Anna on May 16, 2014, 04:45:24 PM
Mrs Fenn saying it is rubbish
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness. Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in t
At 1:18
edited........................ disabled link removed
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Victoria on May 16, 2014, 04:46:04 PM
And yet her niece was interviewed and a statement taken on 8 May 2007, just 4 days after Madeleine disappeared. A statement which was never released to the public.
Not released or not translated?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 04:54:39 PM
Thanks for finding that video Anna. Not once does she deny saying that she heard crying from downstairs because it is true and as properly recorded in her police statement. The rubbish is the crap the press were printing as per the norm.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 04:57:00 PM
Leicestershire police did the statement and the indentikit so it must have been sent to the PJ and translated, just never released with the files however.
Pamela Fenn statement. (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm)
During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence: CT/10 ' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz CT/12 ' A photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007 At 11h10 of this same day I collected three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 16, 2014, 05:12:12 PM
She made her original statement to Leicester police on 8th May 2007 & compiled a computerised efit with the help of a young man from Reading. Another one we are not supposed to see in case it corrupts the agenda.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2014, 05:17:48 PM
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness. Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in t
At 1:18
edited........................ disabled link removed
WOW!!! How do you manage it Anna ... the item I saw was of course in English ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 16, 2014, 05:18:08 PM
She made her original statement to Leicester police on 8th May 2007 & compiled a computerised efit with the help of a young man from Reading. Another one we are not supposed to see in case it corrupts the agenda.
Question is, was the original statement and the identikit of a man aged in his 30's with short blonde hair actually ever sent to Portugal?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 16, 2014, 10:03:37 PM
Question is, was the original statement and the identikit of a man aged in his 30's with short blonde hair actually ever sent to Portugal?
She was asked to provide a rogatory statement to Leicester police, & in during the interview, which was taped, she is shown her original statement of 8th May 2007 & asked to confirm it was correct. The PJ also sent over an efit, which turned out to be the one provided by Tamsiin Sillence rather than Carole's. So, I think it is clear the PJ did have Carole's original statement & efit and chose to suppress the efit, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 16, 2014, 11:29:00 PM
You asked how the parents could go out & leave her to wake up scared, alone & crying. A child has to be alive to do that. Therefore you must be accepting Madeleine was alive when they went to the bar for dinner and misfortune befell her in the hour & a half after (during which time they managed to do the washing, deep clean the apartment,, dispose of the body and still consume copious amounts of wine at the dinner table).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 17, 2014, 12:11:38 AM
NOWHERE did I state that "they did that". I asked a rhetorical question designed to provoke some thought and common sense among those who refuse to question a damn word of the fairytale.
Which, in case you haven't noticed, fits my theory that they are not telling the truth about the events of that night.
It's hardly a rhetorical question when it wasn't just Madeleine who had woken up & cried.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Martina on May 17, 2014, 11:31:27 PM
You are accepting she was alive & capable of doing that when they went out, then?
It doesn't matter if Silkywhiskers accepts it or not. This is the McCanns version of events, that Maddie told them she had cried the night before, yet they left her and her siblings alone again. So how a couple of allegedly loving parents could do something like that?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 17, 2014, 11:41:38 PM
It doesn't matter if Silkywhiskers accepts it or not. This is the McCanns version of events, that Maddie told them she had cried the night before, yet they left her and her siblings alone again. So how a couple of allegeldy loving parents could do something like that?
I have my own experience with something like this, and I can tell you FIRST HAND, that a caring mother is totally incapable of leaving her babies to fend for themselves while she skips off to have a good time.
Actually physically impossible.
Your mind is on your babies. What if someone breaks in? What if I left the iron on? What if they cry and I can't hear them and they are frightened?
We are designed by nature to be our children's carers, their entire world, their safety, their sense of home and love.
Leaving them alone to wake and cry in a dark foreign hotel room for HOURS is physically impossible for a loving mum.
Mothers even struggle with leaving their fully grown TEENAGERS alone, let alone three helpless babies.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 25, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
It is curious that so many alleged checks were going on in the hours before Madeleine disappeared when we know from the evidence that the children were left to bawl and cry on previous nights with this going on for an hour and fifteen minutes on the Tuesday according to Mrs Fenn,
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on May 25, 2014, 02:22:24 PM
It is curious that so many alleged checks were going on in the hours before Madeleine disappeared when we know from the evidence that the children were left to bawl and cry on previous nights with this going on for an hour and fifteen minutes on the Tuesday according to Mrs Fenn,
And the irony is that nothing bad happened to any of the children on those nights, whereas on the night of the excessive checking, one managed to go missing.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Gray on May 25, 2014, 02:26:46 PM
It is curious that so many alleged checks were going on in the hours before Madeleine disappeared when we know from the evidence that the children were left to bawl and cry on previous nights with this going on for an hour and fifteen minutes on the Tuesday according to Mrs Fenn,
according to mrs fenn....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 25, 2014, 02:32:50 PM
So in your opinion she invented this event and the conversation with her friend that followed it?
It would be remarkably easy for the SY/PJ team even now to establish with certainty which night Mrs F heard the 75 minutes crying. From Mrs F's statement "That night she contacted a friend called E*** G***, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation". It seems reasonable to assume that the witness being that age would have a landline phone. So all PJ need to do now is ask the landline company (Portugal Telecom) to check records for PF's landline phone back then and find the call shortly after 11pm from PF to EG. It will either be on Tue 1st, or on Wed 2nd, that will decide the date beyond question. (My bet is Wed 2nd BTW).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 26, 2014, 09:35:06 PM
Re PF date: Tue 1st is total mismatch to another statement, Wed 2nd is good fit, JIMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 26, 2014, 09:43:51 PM
I deduced Wed to be more likely based on PF's and KM's accounts. I might be wrong, but Wed was IMO the late night and I can't make Tue work.
So you don't think it's strange that KM made about 5 phone calls just before the crying started for her daddy at 10:30 on Tuesday that was reported by Pamela Fenn? Is that something else to just sweep under the carpet.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 12:03:27 AM
So you don't think it's strange that KM made about 5 phone calls just before the crying started for her daddy at 10:30 on Tuesday that was reported by Pamela Fenn? Is that something else to just sweep under the carpet.
As I said I think the crying PF heard was on Wed night, I don't see how Tue is possible. But looking at your hypothesis that it was Tue: If IYO the phone use preceded the crying, that proves the crying cannot have caused the phone use. So that leaves you with trying to explain how on earth phone use can cause crying to follow after it IYO?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2014, 12:34:44 AM
As I said I think the crying PF heard was on Wed night, I don't see how Tue is possible. But looking at your hypothesis that it was Tue: If IYO the phone use preceded the crying, that proves the crying cannot have caused the phone use. So that leaves you with trying to explain how on earth phone use can cause crying to follow after it IYO?
Simple if she was making these calls inside 5A starting at 10:15 they may have woken Madeleine up.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 27, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
Well I don't think its realistic to propose so many people lying. Actually I would say that all the witness statements, where they directly describe the period from kidsclub tea to GNR arrival, are true and moreover omit nothing crucial.
Yet you don't think Mrs Fenn told the truth
... for no other reason than she contradicts what the McCanns say happened
Cherry-picking statements to fit an agenda/theory is a pointless exercise
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 01:58:43 AM
... for no other reason than she contradicts what the McCanns say happened
Cherry-picking statements to fit an agenda/theory is a pointless exercise
IMO the date got written down wrong at PF police interview. PF is 100% truthful IMO, it is only the date that got written down which I am questioning. Not a deduction reached lightly, it is only because I see no way to make Tue work. And I might be wrong of course.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 27, 2014, 02:27:09 AM
IMO the date got written down wrong at PF police interview. PF is 100% truthful IMO, it is only the date that got written down which I am questioning. Not a deduction reached lightly, it is only because I see no way to make Tue work. And I might be wrong of course.
Well your 'opinion' that the police wrote the wrong date down on Mrs Fenn's statement is based on your imagination, isn it ? ... I mean there is no actual evidence to support it
What you are doing is rejecting a witness statement for no other reason than it does not 'fit' with what the McCanns have claimed
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 27, 2014, 05:51:03 AM
So in your opinion she invented this event and the conversation with her friend that followed it?
It would be remarkably easy for the SY/PJ team even now to establish with certainty which night Mrs F heard the 75 minutes crying. From Mrs F's statement "That night she contacted a friend called E*** G***, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation". It seems reasonable to assume that the witness being that age would have a landline phone. So all PJ need to do now is ask the landline company (Portugal Telecom) to check records for PF's landline phone back then and find the call shortly after 11pm from PF to EG. It will either be on Tue 1st, or on Wed 2nd, that will decide the date beyond question. (My bet is Wed 2nd BTW).
It couldn't have been the Wednesday evening as Mrs Fenn went out to visit her friend. In all probability this was as a direct result of and occasioned by the previous evenings annoyance. Thursday she was with her niece and her niece's spouse.
From Pamela Fenn's statement to the Portuguese PJ.
She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.
Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.
As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.
That night she contacted a friend called Edna Glyn, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.
She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.
On the 3rd May she received a visit from her niece Carole during the morning, who said that when she was on her terrace she saw a male individual looking into the McCanns apartment, situation which has been told to the police, her family member even made a photo fit". During the day nothing unusual happened, until almost 22.30 when, being alone again, she heard the hysterical shouts from a female person, calling out "we have let her down" which she repeated several times, quite upset.
www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Benice on May 27, 2014, 08:41:13 AM
I deduced Wed to be more likely based on PF's and KM's accounts. I might be wrong, but Wed was IMO the late night and I can't make Tue work.
Rachael Oldfied stayed in next door to 5A all night on the 2nd. IMO she would have heard any prolonged crying from 5A. Also IIRC that night Gerry returned first followed by Kate, so Mrs Fenn would have heard the patio doors open twice.
I think there's a chance it may have been JT's little girl who she heard crying on the 1st as Russell stayed in that night with her because she was feeling poorly. That would explain the 'calling for her daddy'. The patio door opening which Mrs Fenn heard may have been JT returning from the restaurant. There would be no need for her to go all the way round that night because Russell was there and so no need to lock the patio doors.
All IMHO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 27, 2014, 09:09:32 AM
Rachael Oldfied stayed in next door to 5A all night on the 2nd. IMO she would have heard any prolonged crying from 5A. Also IIRC that night Gerry returned first followed by Kate, so Mrs Fenn would have heard the patio doors open twice.
I think there's a chance it may have been JT's little girl who she heard crying on the 1st as Russell stayed in that night with her because she was feeling poorly. That would explain the 'calling for her daddy'. The patio door opening which Mrs Fenn heard may have been JT returning from the restaurant. There would be no need for her to go all the way round that night because Russell was there and so no need to lock the patio doors.
All IMHO.
No.
It was Madeleine.
IMHO of course.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Martina on May 27, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
I think there's a chance it may have been JT's little girl who she heard crying on the 1st as Russell stayed in that night with her because she was feeling poorly. That would explain the 'calling for her daddy'.
Eve O'Brien was one year old, too young to cry "Daddy!". And Russel was there, so if she started to cry, he would react immediately. There would be no reason for her prolonged crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 08:07:11 PM
Well your 'opinion' that the police wrote the wrong date down on Mrs Fenn's statement is based on your imagination, isn it ? ... I mean there is no actual evidence to support it
What you are doing is rejecting a witness statement for no other reason than it does not 'fit' with what the McCanns have claimed
To clarify, I am not rejecting the witness statement. You may accuse me of switching the date from the 1st to the 2nd, that is true. But of rejecting the statement, certainly not. IMO the witness did hear 75 minutes crying below, no way am I dismissing it, and it's quite clear which apartment it came from JIMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 08:17:36 PM
Simple if she was making these calls inside 5A starting at 10:15 they may have woken Madeleine up.
How does being woken by someone making a phone call cause 75 minutes crying? I don't see it. And anyway PR's deduction that this phone activity was conducted at 5A, is nothing but circular reasoning.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 27, 2014, 09:09:29 PM
To clarify, I am not rejecting the witness statement. You may accuse me of switching the date from the 1st to the 2nd, that is true. But of rejecting the statement, certainly not. IMO the witness did hear 75 minutes crying below, no way am I dismissing it, and it's quite clear which apartment it came from JIMO.
But you said you thought Kate McCann had told the truth
If her child was crying continuosly for 75 minutes on any night then she has not the truth, has she ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2014, 09:15:27 PM
How does being woken by someone making a phone call cause 75 minutes crying? I don't see it. And anyway PR's deduction that this phone activity was conducted at 5A, is nothing but circular reasoning.
The quiz lady couldn't remember seeing Kate and DP at the table when she joined Gerry >@@(*&) And the cleaner noticed that one cot was in the parents bedroom on WED >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 09:26:51 PM
But you said you thought Kate McCann had told the truth If her child was crying continuosly for 75 minutes on any night then she has not the truth, has she ?
I agree that if it was Tue then one of the neighbour / the mother must be describing what happened very incorrectly as their accounts would directly contradict each other.
However IMO if it was Wed (I am proposing PJ/translator writing down day error at interview not PF lying) then it is possible both those two accounts are essentially truthful.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 09:36:32 PM
The quiz lady couldn't remember seeing Kate and DP at the table when she joined Gerry >@@(*&) And the cleaner noticed that one cot was in the parents bedroom on WED >@@(*&)
But how in your theory can those events cause the 75 minutes which Mrs F heard? And BTW what time did the group leave meal/quiz on Tue?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 27, 2014, 10:04:00 PM
But how in your theory can those events cause the 75 minutes which Mrs F heard? And BTW what time did the group leave meal/quiz on Tue?
She was crying for her daddy. Was mummy there? This was around 9:30 when she joined them at the table. She couldn't remember seeing Kate and DP at the table.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 27, 2014, 10:44:31 PM
I agree that if it was Tue then one of the neighbour / the mother must be describing what happened very incorrectly as their accounts would directly contradict each other.
However IMO if it was Wed (I am proposing PJ/translator writing down day error at interview not PF lying) then it is possible both those two accounts are essentially truthful.
Pegasus, there is simply no way you can reconcile Mrs Fenn saying a child was crying, becoming increasingly distressed, for an hour and a quarter in the McCann's apartment, with Kate's assertion that the longest interval between checks that week had been 45 minutes
You cannot claim there is no 'contradiction' between those two statements
Either Mrs Fenn ( who had no motive to lie ) must be challenged ... or Kate must
To pretend that you can, somehow, 'marry' those two, conflicting, statements is a nonsense
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 11:21:10 PM
I agree there is a difference between those two accounts, 45 mins and 75 mins (IMO 45 may be underestimate). BTW when this witness returned on Wed night (whether it was 11.30 or 11.45 or some other exact minute) there was no crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 27, 2014, 11:30:24 PM
I agree there is a difference between those two accounts, 45 mins and utes and 75 mins (IMO 45 may be underestimate.) BTW when this witness returned on Wed night (whether it was 11.30 or 11.45 or some other exact minute) there was no crying.
The difference between 45 minutes and 75 minutes is not an 'underestimate' pegasus ... it is an anomaly that cannot be breached
As is the anomaly between Mrs Fenn saying the crying stopped only after she heard the patio doors opening ( signifying the return of the child's parents ) and Kate McCann saying there was never an incident that week when they returned to the apartment to find any of the children awake
You can't reconcile Mrs Fenns claims with those of the McCanns ... you simply can't ( whether you switch the nights around or not )
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 27, 2014, 11:35:22 PM
It's irrelevant hair splitting really.
Kate McCann herself told us about Madeleine and Sean's unattended crying.
Mrs Fenn is just another indication of the inconsistencies of the McCann fairytale.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 27, 2014, 11:42:03 PM
The difference between 45 minutes and 75 minutes is not an 'underestimate' pegasus ... it is an anomaly that cannot be breached
As is the anomaly between Mrs Fenn saying the crying stopped only after she heard the patio doors opening ( signifying the return of the child's parents ) and Kate McCann saying there was never an incident that week when they returned to the apartment to find any of the children awake
You can't reconcile Mrs Fenns claims with those of the McCanns ... you simply can't ( whether you switch the nights around or not )
In the unlikely event anyone is interested in the Wed hypothesis: The 75mins crying stopped when the first person entered and did not continue any longer. She was second or fourth.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2014, 12:19:07 AM
In the unlikely event anyone is interested in the Wed hypothesis: The 75mins crying stopped when the first person entered and did not continue any longer. She was second or fourth.
Why didn't Rachel hear this crying for 75 minutes on the WED being next door?
1578 'Who said they'd been crying sorry''
Reply 'Kate did, when we sat down at the table on the Thursday night, Kate said that erm, Madeleine and Sean had cried, said they'd been crying, erm and you know wondered where she was, or wondered where you know, Mummy and Daddy were, erm I mean this was kind of after Madeleine disappeared, we talked, she mentioned that when we sat at the table on Thursday and then after Madeleine had disappeared, erm McCANNS said, oh well I wonder whether on the Wednesday, you know somebody had tried to get in perhaps or had got in and they'd seen something, erm you know and I was next door in the apartment but I mean I didnt hear any, well you know, I didnt hear anything, I could well have been asleep, erm you could hear quite a lot through the apartments because Grace, she always wakes up early but because she seemed to have diarrhoea every night, she'd wake up sort of six o'clock most mornings and we'd always have to put her in the, in the shower or in the bath first thing, and Gerry and Kate would always hear that and so you know, most of the comments first thing in the morning would be like, oh so Grace was up early again, she'd be invariably screaming her head off, so'.
00.46.02 1578 'So whilst you were in the apartment on the Wednesday evening, did you hear anything unusual''
Reply 'No, nothing, no, erm it'.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 28, 2014, 12:36:37 AM
Noise maybe originating from lounge near sliding door, directly under awake witness in lounge 5G, but not adjacent to asleep witness in bedroom 5B north end. All JIMO, might be wrong.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 28, 2014, 09:48:55 PM
Yes there's also the PROBABILITY that Madeleine woke and cried more than one night of the holiday.
No one knows do they, as the parents were off having fun?
The only reason we know about ONE crying session is because of Mrs Fenn, which in turn forced Kate to acknowledge ONE crying session in her book.
I suggest there were several.
Madeleine had a sleep chart at home which means she had problems going to sleep or staying asleep, which makes it even LESS understandable that mummy and daddy took off for Tapas night after night.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 29, 2014, 04:43:24 PM
Eve O'Brien was one year old, too young to cry "Daddy!". And Russel was there, so if she started to cry, he would react immediately. There would be no reason for her prolonged crying.
Very sensible post. No parent in attendance is going to allow their child to cry for an hour and fifteen minutes and especially so in a resort apartment with people being in such close proximity to each other. The only child who was unsupervised and capable of crying for her daddy was Madeleine.
In any event Mrs Fenn was nobody's fool. She knew where the crying was coming from and stated as much...immediately below ie apartment 5a.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2014, 01:31:59 PM
Very sensible post. No parent in attendance is going to allow their child to cry for an hour and fifteen minutes and especially so in a resort apartment with people being in such close proximity to each other. The only child who was unsupervised and capable of crying for her daddy was Madeleine.
In any event Mrs Fenn was nobody's fool. She knew where the crying was coming from and stated as much...immediately below ie apartment 5a.
There is absolutely no proof that it was Madeleine crying THat particular night, John.
Had Madeleine been crying so loudly, there would have been three little ones crying.
I have no doubts that Madeleine would have wakened the twins had she been distressed.
There would have been three little ones at it ... NOT one.
Incidentally at Mrs Fenns age it is quite likely that she suffered deafness. I do too ... and I have absolutely no idea where sound comes from now. No idea at all.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on May 31, 2014, 02:31:44 PM
There is absolutely no proof that it was Madeleine crying THat particular night, John.
Had Madeleine been crying so loudly, there would have been three little ones crying.
I have no doubts that Madeleine would have wakened the twins had she been distressed.
There would have been three little ones at it ... NOT one.
Incidentally at Mrs Fenns age it is quite likely that she suffered deafness. I do too ... and I have absolutely no idea where sound comes from now. No idea at all.
No proof? Not if you discount Mrs Fenns very astute observation that it was a child directly beneath her apartment. I must say your attempts to undermine her evidence are not admirable by any means.
Tue night. Mrs Fenn heard a child crying daddy for over an hour. Thur morning. Madeleine complains to her mother that she and Sean were crying the previous night.
That makes two nights in which one or more child was crying for their parents. Twist as much as you like but the evidence is crystal clear.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on May 31, 2014, 02:47:52 PM
No proof? Not if you discount Mrs Fenns very astute observation that it was a child directly beneath her apartment. I must say your attempts to undermine her evidence are not admirable by any means.
Tue night. Mrs Fenn heard a child crying daddy for over an hour. Thur morning. Madeleine complains to her mother that she and Sean were crying the previous night.
That makes two nights in which one or more child was crying for their parents. Twist as much as you like but the evidence is crystal clear.
Absolutely. Whoever it was, childcare was abysmal.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2014, 08:46:58 PM
Writing only from my own experience. a crying child tends to get out of bed to find mum or dad if no-one comes to deal with them within a few minutes. I would hazard a guess that Madeleine had got out of bed & wandered into the lounge area & parents' bedroom, looking for them, crying, & this is what Mrs Fenn heard. But a tired child doesn't cry for over an hour, they tend to fall back to sleep. Sean probably couldn't get out of the travel cot to go wandering. Having raised two tots in a flat, I can also say that noise from above & below is much more audible than from adjoining property either side. I suspect Mrs Fenn may well have been "encouraged" to embellish her statement (when she was finally interviewed) in accordance with the PJ's unwritten rules to portray British parents in a very bad light.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 31, 2014, 08:50:00 PM
Writing only from my own experience. a crying child tends to get out of bed to find mum or dad if no-one comes to deal with them within a few minutes. I would hazard a guess that Madeleine had got out of bed & wandered into the lounge area & parents' bedroom, looking for them, crying, & this is what Mrs Fenn heard. But a tired child doesn't cry for over an hour, they tend to fall back to sleep. Sean probably couldn't get out of the travel cot to go wandering. Having raised two tots in a flat, I can also say that noise from above & below is much more audible than from adjoining property either side. I suspect Mrs Fenn may well have been "encouraged" to embellish her statement (when she was finally interviewed) in accordance with the PJ's unwritten rules to portray British parents in a very bad light.
And just like that, Mrs Fenn is also Lying.
The PJ didn't NEED help to paint the parents in a very bad light. They did that themselves.
Do you not realise how STUPID this sounds?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: stephen25000 on May 31, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
Writing only from my own experience. a crying child tends to get out of bed to find mum or dad if no-one comes to deal with them within a few minutes. I would hazard a guess that Madeleine had got out of bed & wandered into the lounge area & parents' bedroom, looking for them, crying, & this is what Mrs Fenn heard. But a tired child doesn't cry for over an hour, they tend to fall back to sleep. Sean probably couldn't get out of the travel cot to go wandering. Having raised two tots in a flat, I can also say that noise from above & below is much more audible than from adjoining property either side. I suspect Mrs Fenn may well have been "encouraged" to embellish her statement (when she was finally interviewed) in accordance with the PJ's unwritten rules to portray British parents in a very bad light.
What a load of cobblers.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 08:57:18 PM
Mrs Fenn was interviewed 4 months after the crime, an extraordinary gap given that she was the person in closest proximity to crime(s) against Madeleine when it or they were committed.
And advanced billing of her interview said nothing about Madeleine; rather it was portrayed as about a crime of which Mrs Fenn, herself, was a victim.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2014, 09:01:07 PM
The PJ didn't NEED help to paint the parents in a very bad light. They did that themselves.
Do you not realise how STUPID this sounds?
I don't understand why members who make these claims that people in this case are telling lies don't stop and ask themselves why .... why would all these unconnected people be telling all these lies ?
The only people with a potential motive to lie in this case are the McCanns and their chums
There is simply no rational reason to suspect that those who have absolutely nothing to gain by lying would do so
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 31, 2014, 09:09:27 PM
I don't understand why members who make these claims that people in this case are telling lies don't stop and ask themselves why .... why would all these unconnected people be telling all these lies ?
The only people with a potential motive to lie in this case are the McCanns and their chums
There is simply no rational reason to suspect that those who have absolutely nothing to gain by lying would do so
Team McCann speak as if they always KNEW Madeleine has been abducted and the PJ are corrupt and attempting to blame the McCanns for no reason at all.
At the stage of the 49 questions, there were suspicions, but still no hard proof.
So why didn't the "stitchers" do a better job? Why did Kate and Gerry get let go to swan around PDL then b....r off to the UK again?
If they were being stitched up, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED.
They were not.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2014, 09:13:01 PM
... I suspect Mrs Fenn may well have been "encouraged" to embellish her statement (when she was finally interviewed) in accordance with the PJ's unwritten rules to portray British parents in a very bad light.
How then do you explain that at least local resident, dumbfounded on hearing on the local grapevine about the crying and appalled by what he/she heard, posted the details of it online. Please note this was before the PJ/UKpolice team interviewed Mrs F, so it cannot possibly be due to pressure by the PJ/UKpolice. I seem to remember one of the posts did contain the word "liar" (more than once or twice), but it was certainly not referring to Mrs F nor to the PJ/UKpolice.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2014, 09:16:04 PM
How then do you explain that at least local resident, hearing on the local grapevine about the crying and appalled by what he heard, posted the details of it online. Please note this was before the PJ/UKpolice team interviewed Mrs F, so it cannot possibly be due to pressure by the PJ/UKpolice. I seem to remember one of the posts did contain the word "liar" and not just once or twice, but it was certainly not referring to Mrs F nor to the PJ/UKpolice.
Oh, Chinese Whispers again
I am surprised at you, Pegasus, taking notice of that.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2014, 09:32:48 PM
For the record, if you actually bothered to read the entire contents of my post, I did NOT accuse Mrs Fenn of lying per se, I merely said she may well have been encouraged to exaggerate the length of time she heard the child crying. She denied knowing anything, on camera, a few weeks before she was interviewed by the PJ. If Madeleine was the child crying, I firmly believe she would have got out of bed & wandered around looking for mum or dad. The same thing may well have happened on the Thursday night - who knows - a child who is worried about being left will invariably not settle so she may well have still been awake when the McCanns went off to dinner. Still, as the lady is not here to defend herself and she never had to stand up in court & give testimony, I doubt we will ever know the real truth.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on May 31, 2014, 09:35:42 PM
For the record, if you actually bothered to read the entire contents of my post, I did NOT accuse Mrs Fenn of lying per se, I merely said she may well have been encouraged to exaggerate the length of time she heard the child crying. She denied knowing anything, on camera, a few weeks before she was interviewed by the PJ. If Madeleine was the child crying, I firmly believe she would have got out of bed & wandered around looking for mum or dad. The same thing may well have happened on the Thursday night - who knows - a child who is worried about being left will invariably not settle so she may well have still been awake when the McCanns went off to dinner. Still, as the lady is not here to defend herself and she never had to stand up in court & give testimony, I doubt we will ever know the real truth.
So what do you base this allegation on?
What evidence do you have that Mrs Fenn was lying or exaggerating?
None?
Don't let that stop you, she's deceased and can't fight back can she....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2014, 09:46:34 PM
A comment posted on 24 July 2007 on the Express website, 4 weeks before the PJ interview. (I can't give a link because it has been long erased).
"... Talk to elderly Mrs. Senn [sic] who lives above and she’ll tell you on that particular Tuesday night she had to sit listening to one of the children “screeming [sic], crying” from 22:30 till 23:45. ..."
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2014, 09:51:32 PM
What evidence do you have that Mrs Fenn was lying or exaggerating?
None?
Don't let that stop you, she's deceased and can't fight back can she....
In the same fashion, she is also not here to confirm that her statement was recounted precisely by the translator. In the same fashion you can choose to accuse Kate of lying that Madeleine was crying on the Wednesday night. It is interesting to note that Mrs Fenn's statement was also taken by Joao Carlos, the same Inspector who took Martin Smith's statement. Another coincidence.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 09:52:44 PM
Do you know whether this was the first time the police spoke to Mrs Fenn? Is it not entirely possible that she was interviewed at the very beginning with notes taken, yet only at a later date as the investigation progressed was the information put into a statement?
The statements of informal witnesses (which Mrs Fenn was) are recorded in full.
If the police had had earlier contact with Mrs Fenn there would be a record.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2014, 10:06:45 PM
And even earlier, on 02 June 2007, the crying was known about locally, as a comment posted by a local resident under the article "When The Spotlight Fades ..." on Sky site demonstrated (I can give a link to the article however the comment appears to have been erased).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2014, 10:21:41 PM
And even earlier, on 02 June 2007, the crying was known about locally, as a comment posted by a local resident under the article "When The Spotlight Fades ..." on Sky site demonstrated (I can give a link to the article however the comment appears to have been erased).
"Locals" have said all sorts of things. Including that they were all at Chaplins, that the McCanns were at a certain beachside restaurant, and various other "facts", none of which appear to be true.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2014, 10:37:39 PM
Mrs Fenn took a phone call during the period in which she said Madeleine was crying (at 2300 hrs). It is a shame the Inspector never asked her if she could hear the child crying during that telephone conversation, & the duration of the phone call. Mrs Fenn also reported that she heard no noise coming from the apartment on the night of the 3rd, not even the patio doors - which some would interpret as the patio doors not having been used at all.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2014, 10:41:44 PM
Mrs Fenn took a phone call during the period in which she said Madeleine was crying (at 2300 hrs). It is a shame the Inspector never asked her if she could hear the child crying during that telephone conversation, & the duration of the phone call. Mrs Fenn also reported that she heard no noise coming from the apartment on the night of the 3rd, not even the patio doors - which some would interpret as the patio doors not having been used at all.
I wonder which would have been more noisy, the patio door being slid open and closed, or the bedroom shutters being raised?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on May 31, 2014, 10:52:25 PM
I wonder which would have been more noisy, the patio door being slid open and closed, or the bedroom shutters being raised?
The shutters, without a doubt. But Mrs Fenn was watching TV that evening, whereabouts in her apartment & volume level of TV not stated so it is impossible to say what she could & couldn't have heard.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 11:05:04 PM
I seem to recall there was some guff about his book reflecting what was written in the files!
That was guff, precisely illustrating the perils of ex-parte judgements.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 11:06:10 PM
Correct. So do you know if it was the first time the police had spoken to Mrs Fenn?
If there was a previous occasion, I've never seen it recorded in the files ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2014, 11:19:32 PM
Daily Express 18 Aug 2007 Two days before PJ interview of witness. A friend of Mrs F tells the Express "screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm"
I have now provided 3 sources, they are two local residents (one possibly a childcare staff member JIMO), and a friend of the witness, all stating clearly about the crying. These 3 sources prove that the accusation someone posted above, that PJ encouraged Mrs F to exagerrate on 20 Aug 2007, is absolutely incorrect. The crying was already well known about locally as the sources dated 2 June, 24 July, and 18 Aug prove, all before the 20 Aug interview of witness by the PJ/UK investigative team
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on May 31, 2014, 11:24:29 PM
Daily Express 18 Aug 2007 Two days before PJ interview of witness. A friend of Mrs F tells the Express "screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm"
I have now provided 3 sources, they are two local residents (one possibly a childcare staff member IMO), and a friend of the witness, all stating clearly about the crying. These 3 sources prove that the accusation someone posted above, that PJ encouraged Mrs F to exagerrate on 20 Aug 2007, is absolutely incorrect. The crying was already known about locally as the sources dated 2 June, 28 July, and 18 Aug prove.
Media or unknown sources?
And whose screams were they? That is the question.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 11:25:35 PM
Daily Express 18 Aug 2007 Two days before PJ interview of witness. A friend of Mrs F tells the Express "screams carried on from around 10.30pm to 11.45pm"
I have now provided 3 sources, they are two local residents (one possibly a childcare staff member JIMO), and a friend of the witness, all stating clearly about the crying. These 3 sources prove that the accusation someone posted above, that PJ encouraged Mrs F to exagerrate on 20 Aug 2007, is absolutely incorrect. The crying was already well known about locally as the sources dated 2 June, 24 July, and 18 Aug prove, all before the 20 Aug interview of witness by the PJ/UK investigative team
So 2 days before Mrs Fenn's interview and they already "knew" what she was going to say.
What does that tell you? ...
Mrs Pamela Fenn 20 August 2007 Mrs Fenns statement, taken in Praia da Luz on the 20th of August 2007:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2014, 11:33:16 PM
And whose screams were they? That is the question.
The witness's description indicates: the missing child's. Whichever night it was, the mother cannot be the first enterer coinciding with it stopping, as she did not hear it, and was not told about it until next or following breakfast. JIMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Carana on May 31, 2014, 11:36:31 PM
Perhaps because it wasn't in statement form? My point is that you do not know. You are only referring to a statement. It is perfectly reasonable to exchange information with police officers without them asking for official statements.
According to Paiva, in July there was a turning point. Is it possible that after that turning point, information supplied by Mrs Fenn became of more interest to the PJ which led to an official statement request?
There's a thread on this.
As an immediate neighbour, why wasn't she interviewed back in May?
She had even had an intruder a week prior to the disappearance. Shouldn't that have been ringing bells with the police?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 11:39:47 PM
As an immediate neighbour, why wasn't she interviewed back in May?
She had even had an intruder a week prior to the disappearance. Shouldn't that have been ringing bells with the police?
Why not indeed?
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz33Kru1x6Z Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on May 31, 2014, 11:53:36 PM
So 2 days before Mrs Fenn's interview and they already "knew" what she was going to say.
What does that tell you? ...
I just wish she had called the police while the crying was happening, then someone, either at 5A, or by your theory probably at some other apartment which sounded to Mrs F like 5A, would have got a very much needed metaphorical kick on the backside from a shiny GNR boot when they got back from next to the restuarant, and I doubt we would be here discussing the case at all as it would not have happened.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on May 31, 2014, 11:59:54 PM
I just wish she had called the police while the crying was happening, then someone, either at 5A, or by your theory probably at some other apartment which sounded to Mrs F like 5A, would have got a very much needed metaphorical kick on the backside from a shiny GNR boot when they got back from next to the restuarant, and I doubt we would be here discussing the case at all as it would not have happened.
So why do you rule out that a duplicitous snake-in-the-grass like Paivia corrupted Mrs Fenn's statement?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2014, 12:00:35 AM
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness.
Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below.
But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-481485/Madeleines-mother-quizzed-Portuguese-police.html#ixzz33Kru1x6Z Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
With thanks to Anna ~ a video link to Mrs Fenn speaking in person and 'backing up' what she is reported as saying by the Mail. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg152555#msg152555
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on June 01, 2014, 12:05:26 AM
With thanks to Anna ~ a video link to Mrs Fenn speaking in person and 'backing up' what she is reported as saying by the Mail. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3197.msg152555#msg152555
My speakers have packed up
But I am equally grateful to Anne.
Remember something else!
The first people to say anything about Madeleine crying were (you guessed it!) Kate and Gerry McCann ...
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on June 01, 2014, 12:31:34 AM
Thanks for finding that video Anna. Not once does she deny saying that she heard crying from downstairs because it is true and as properly recorded in her police statement. The rubbish is the crap the press were printing as per the norm.
Exactly she said, "I've never spoken to a journalist!" So any newspaper articles about her or quoting her are a load of rubbish. Just to be clear as Daily Mail articles are being used on this thread "I've never spoken to a journalist!"
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 01, 2014, 12:03:41 PM
And whose screams were they? That is the question.
Read her statement. Madeleine was crying for her daddy from 10:30 to 11:45 on TUE 1 May.
"22.30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger. Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted 'Daddy, Daddy', the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23.45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse."
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on 1st May because she thought it would just increase their suffering."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on June 01, 2014, 06:54:23 PM
Exactly she said, "I've never spoken to a journalist!" So any newspaper articles about her or quoting her are a load of rubbish. Just to be clear as Daily Mail articles are being used on this thread "I've never spoken to a journalist!"
Mrs Fenn was reacting to the constant stream of “rubbish” which had been written “in the English papers”.
That is what was reported in the Daily Mail … accurately … as the video clip verifies.
She had been widely quoted on the internet, in the “English” press and no doubt the Portuguese press, obviously much to her annoyance. Because as she clearly states, what was being reported was “all rubbish.”
Transcript from 1:18 onwards.
“Honestly, I’ve… I know nothing. I’ve been here for three months… until all this happened I’ve never spoken to a journalist, they’ve written rubbish in the English papers, I haven’t even uttered a word! I never (sighs)… it’s all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it”
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 01, 2014, 06:59:06 PM
Mrs Fenn was reacting to the constant stream of “rubbish” which had been written “in the English papers”.
That is what was reported in the Daily Mail … accurately … as the video clip verifies.
She had been widely quoted on the internet, in the “English” press and no doubt the Portuguese press, obviously much to her annoyance. Because as she clearly states, what was being reported was “all rubbish.”
Transcript from 1:18 onwards.
“Honestly, I’ve… I know nothing. I’ve been here for three months… until all this happened I’ve never spoken to a journalist, they’ve written rubbish in the English papers, I haven’t even uttered a word! I never (sighs)… it’s all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it”
So you agree with PF then?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 01, 2014, 08:47:11 PM
Firstly. Have you even listened to the video? She backs nothing up. In fact, what she actually does is clearly state that the English papers have written rubbish.
Secondly. To aid Ferryman with the speaker problem......
Transcript from 1:18 onwards.
“Honestly, I’ve… I know nothing. I’ve been here for three months… until all this happened I’ve never spoken to a journalist, they’ve written rubbish in the English papers, I haven’t even uttered a word! I never (sighs)… it’s all rubbish! Please, please, just forget it” [/i]
How do you tell if someone is lying?
They insert the words "honestly" or "to be honest".
Which in turn implies that everything else they have just said is a LIE.
8@??)(
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2014, 01:08:52 AM
In the video, what Mrs F says is that she has not spoken to journalists. The UK press were then fed stories which grossly and deliberately distorted that.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 02, 2014, 01:19:31 AM
In the video, what Mrs F says is that she has not spoken to journalists. The UK press were then fed stories which grossly and deliberately distorted that.
We can just add her to the bonfire of the vanities that is Team McCann.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on June 02, 2014, 01:46:16 AM
We can just add her to the bonfire of the vanities that is Team McCann.
Mrs Fenn is probably not lying - she didn't knowingly speak to any journalists. But she apparently did speak to her hairdresser, and probably other folk in the community, and the local journos have jumped on the heresay & developed the story in their own unique way. It's what they get paid for.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on June 02, 2014, 01:59:01 AM
How distorted was it, considering Kate acknowledged it in her book?
I can't check your interesting question now but will do later. Basically, she truthfully did not hear it, Mrs F truthfully did hear it, JIMO.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on June 02, 2014, 02:37:13 AM
An example of distortion, from Joana Morais blogspot
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives above the Praia da Luz apartment Madeleine vanished from, supposedly said she heard the four-year-old "scream for four hours" the night before."
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on June 02, 2014, 02:45:28 AM
Unique way indeed, whoever fed the journos deliberately distorted what Mrs F said.
You don't need anyone to feed journalists because they make it up themselves to get a sensationalistic type headline. The Jerry Lawton "Madeleine found in Ireland" or the "Madeleine found in Turkey" nonsense comes to mind.
I have a suspicion that journalists may have spoken to Mrs Fenn without revealing who they were or even came by the stories from a third party. Bottom line is don't believe anything you read in the Press unless it is corroborated by official sources.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on June 02, 2014, 08:53:49 PM
An example of distortion, from Joana Morais blogspot
Sunday Mirror - 23/09/2007: "A key witness in the Madeleine McCann case yesterday DENIED telling cops that she heard the family screaming and arguing.
Pamela Fenn, 81, who lives above the Praia da Luz apartment Madeleine vanished from, supposedly said she heard the four-year-old "scream for four hours" the night before."
Isn't the Sunday Mirror one of the rags that was forced to pay the McCann for printing false stories?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on June 21, 2014, 08:39:00 AM
Maybe they cried both nights. Maybe they cried every night.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Moderator on June 23, 2014, 11:12:42 AM
I think it was Wednesday night PF heard the crying. Assuming that the Portugal Telecom company still has landline records for 2007, those records would prove whether the mid-crying phonecall after 23:00 from PF to EG was on the 1st, or on the 2nd.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on June 24, 2014, 02:39:58 PM
I think it was Wednesday night PF heard the crying. Assuming that the Portugal Telecom company still has landline records for 2007, those records would prove whether the mid-crying phonecall after 23:00 from PF to EG was on the 1st, or on the 2nd.
Heard her from the other side of town where she was visiting her friend to get away from the previous nights howling. All makes perfect sense.
To clarify. Mrs Fenn was at home Tue night and out visiting on the Wed night. Ergo she had to have heard the crying child on the Tue night.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: John on June 24, 2014, 03:08:18 PM
It wasn't even half an hour as Mrs Fenn heard Madeleine crying for well over an hour.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: VIXTE on June 24, 2014, 05:58:28 PM
she asked gerry and kate why didnt they come when she and sean cried
Then we only have Dr Kate McCann's word for that, do we not? Why should you believe her? You most certainly chose to disbelieve every other word that comes out of her mouth.
If I were you I would think about an open window and raised shutters and wonder why one statement has credence and the other, in your opinion, has none.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Martina on June 24, 2014, 06:32:11 PM
Then we only have Dr Kate McCann's word for that, do we not? Why should you believe her? You most certainly chose to disbelieve every other word that comes out of her mouth.
If I were you I would think about an open window and raised shutters and wonder why one statement has credence and the other, in your opinion, has none.
Weird argument in the mouth of a person, who believes Kate McCann speaks only the pure truth. So what, you suggest now that Kate lied about Maddie crying?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: VIXTE on June 24, 2014, 06:43:07 PM
Weird argument in the mouth of a person, who believes Kate McCann speaks only the pure truth. So what, you suggest now that Kate lied about Maddie crying?
Kate did not say that Madeleine cried. She said that Madeleine told them she cried. Kate said that Amelie cried.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2014, 06:44:11 PM
Weird argument in the mouth of a person, who believes Kate McCann speaks only the pure truth. So what, you suggest now that Kate lied about Maddie crying?
God, this is tedious.
Kate only had Madeleine's word for it. She didn't even know when Madeleine was supposed to have been crying. And it was two of them according to Madeleine. Mrs. Fenn only mentions one child crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 24, 2014, 06:44:42 PM
Kate only had Madeleine's word for it. She didn't even know when Madeleine was supposed to have been crying. And it was two of them according to Madeleine. Mrs. Fenn only mentions one child crying.
So now you are suggesting that Maddie lied about crying the previous night? Why would she?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2014, 06:48:22 PM
So now you are suggesting that Maddie lied about crying the previous night? Why would she?
I am saying we don't know if Madeleine cried, how long she cried and if it was Madeleine that Mrs Fenn heard and we are not in a position to ever establish who Mrs Fenn heard.
Also, according to Kate, Madeleine said 'when Sean and I cried'
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 24, 2014, 06:49:00 PM
Weird argument in the mouth of a person, who believes Kate McCann speaks only the pure truth. So what, you suggest now that Kate lied about Maddie crying?
Not an argument and nothing weird about it.
It is for the posters who disbelieve every word Dr McCann utters to ponder. If they can justify the dichotomy ... why don't they.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Martina on June 24, 2014, 06:52:09 PM
she asked gerry and kate why didnt they come when she and sean cried
But Mrs Fenn only heard ONE child crying not two.
Rachael Oldfied who was in the adjoining apartment stayed in on the night of the 2nd - so she would have heard any sustained crying from next door if it happened.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2014, 08:20:21 PM
Rachael Oldfied who was in the adjoining apartment stayed in on the night of the 2nd - so she would have heard any sustained crying from next door if it happened.
And she would hardly have ignored it if she did.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 24, 2014, 09:45:18 PM
It was Kate MCann who said Madeliene mentioned as 'something of nothing' about; Sean was crying and asked where they were. This was allegedly the night before the disapearnace.
Why would Kate mention that at all? unless she knew someone heard the crying.
AND after your daughter said that would you go out the next night and leave them alone -what if they woke up crying again? They were known to be light sleepers...
Ahhhh The I forgot they had that fool proof 'listening system'
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: carlymichelle on June 24, 2014, 09:47:56 PM
It was Kate MCann who said Madeliene mentioned as 'something of nothing' about; Sean was crying and asked where they were. This was allegedly the night before the disapearnace.
Why would Kate mention that at all? unless she knew someone heard the crying.
AND after your daughter said that would you go out the next night and leave them alone -what if they woke up crying again? They were known to be light sleepers...
Ahhhh The I forgot they had that fool proof 'listening system'
according to kates book maddie said why didnt you come when sean and i were crying ie they were not there when maddie and sean were crying and kate didnt care she said it was a passing remark from maddie and that maddie moved on
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on November 06, 2014, 03:56:32 PM
I would refer you to the rogatory statement of Carol Tranmer ... Mrs Fenn's niece for an example of how a person can be totally and innocently wrong in their first statement while being convinced of the truth of it.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on November 12, 2014, 02:27:24 PM
If you dismiss all third party accounts as unreliable chinese whispers, and accept only those from the horses mouth, you would dismiss the Thursday breakfast-time statement (about unattended crying on Wednesday night) by the most important person by far in this case. Just because you don't have a first-hand account doesn't mean its not true.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on November 12, 2014, 02:29:38 PM
If you dismiss all third party accounts as unreliable chinese whispers, and accept only those from the horses mouth, you would dismiss the Thursday breakfast-time statement (about unattended crying on Wednesday night) by the most important person by far in this case. Just because you don't have a first-hand account doesn't mean its not true.
Why would the McCanns have volunteered that information if they had some dreadful secret to hide about Madeleine's disappearance?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on November 12, 2014, 02:36:50 PM
Why would the McCanns have volunteered that information if they had some dreadful secret to hide about Madeleine's disappearance?
It would have been better if they had not. They Left the children critics use it to fire more arrows at the family. It is water under the bridge now and we should be concentrating on what might have happened to Maddie IMO
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on November 12, 2014, 02:56:18 PM
If you dismiss all third party accounts as unreliable chinese whispers, and accept only those from the horses mouth, you would dismiss the Thursday breakfast-time statement (about unattended crying on Wednesday night) by the most important person by far in this case. Just because you don't have a first-hand account doesn't mean its not true.
Please watch and listen to Mrs Fenn making a very definitive statement ... "IT'S ALL RUBBISH". No Chinese whispers there.
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness. Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on November 12, 2014, 03:11:50 PM
Only according to the McCanns - that could be the damage limitation.
No Jassi, It was in Mrs fenns statement. It was tues that she said that she heard crying. IIRC Kate slept in the children's room on Wednesday, so maybe Maddie was referring to Tuesday.....We will never know.
Kate and Gerry didn't know of Mrs Fenn hearing crying because... she didn't tell them.
Mrs Fenn was out on Wednesday and she heard Kate screaming on Thursday night. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post440.html#p440
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on November 12, 2014, 03:33:27 PM
Please watch and listen to Mrs Fenn making a very definitive statement ... "IT'S ALL RUBBISH". No Chinese whispers there.
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness. Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
Listen to the audio, what Mrs F actually says is - the claim that she had spoken to journalists is rubbish. The text of the presumably spoonfed Mail article changes the actual word "journalists" to the fabricated word "police".
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Anna on November 12, 2014, 03:38:01 PM
Listen to the audio, what Mrs F actually says is - the claim that she had spoken to journalists is rubbish. The text of the presumably spoonfed Mail article changes the actual word "journalists" to the fabricated word "police".
She didn't speak to any journalist, so who could have informed them of what was in her statement?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: pegasus on November 12, 2014, 03:49:52 PM
The McCanns cannot have had the first clue what Mrs Fenn (eventually interviewed, months after the crime) would say in her statement.
Mrs Fenn’s statement was quite remarkably only taken on August 20th 2007 … IMO far too long gap between the events of the week of the McCann holiday when it is considered the lady was resident immediately above their holiday accommodation and was at home during the time in question.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on November 12, 2014, 05:08:59 PM
Please watch and listen to Mrs Fenn making a very definitive statement ... "IT'S ALL RUBBISH". No Chinese whispers there.
Last night the McCanns got a boost when the police case appeared to be undermined by a pensioner who is potentially a key witness. Pamela Fenn, 81, lives above the apartment where Madeleine disappeared and is reported to have told police she heard Madeleine screaming below. But yesterday she broke her silence to say it was "absolute rubbish" she had made any such claims to police. Mrs Fenn said: "I didn't even know that family was in there." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFHbkbBh5BM
For a long time that had me completely convinced that there was something fundamentally awry with the statement of Mrs Fenns' we read on line.
But there were a couple of points I missed. First is that Mrs Fenn was interviewed by Joao Carlos, definitely one of the more honest PJ officers, (briefly) misled by the antics of Grime and his dogs, but who atoned with a (genuinely fine!) final PJ report.
The other thing is that there is this You-tube video of some hairdresser-type blabbing about what Mrs Fenn had said.
Piecing it together, I (now) think Mrs Fenn blabbed to hairdresser-type, hairdresser-type blabbed to the rest of the world (probably for a fee!) and Mrs Fenn, horrified and realising the (potential) implications of breaching Portuguese secrecy, denied everything when the press piled up outside her door.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on November 12, 2014, 05:12:09 PM
The McCanns cannot have had the first clue what Mrs Fenn (eventually interviewed, months after the crime) would say in her statement.
Anyone competent at media monitoring would have known about it long before October. Various people in PDL knew about the crying from the beginning, and completely dumbfounded by how it could happen, posted about it.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ferryman on November 12, 2014, 05:24:42 PM
Anyone competent at media monitoring would have known about it long before October. Various people in PDL knew about the crying from the beginning, and completely dumbfounded by how it could happen, posted about it.
The McCanns shared the information about Madeleine crying way before press rumours about Madeleine crying.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: sadie on November 12, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
But it is all too long, especially for an old woman to remember precise details.
But PF phoned her friend Edna Glyn to discuss the crying so may well have had a strong reference point in terms of looking up the phone bill. In the absence of such I don't think it would be difficult to remember that a child who she believes she heard crying for some 1.25 hours then disappeared off the face of the earth 2 evenings later from an apartment directly below hers. Also her niece visited on 3rd May and took PF to lunch at her favourite fish restaurant in nearby Lagos so another reason she may well have remembered the day/night in question. Also on 1st May it was her nieces birthday so it may well have stuck in her mind that this was the night she heard MM crying. I'm not old in the PF sense but personally I think its a bit disparaging to write off a witness on the basis of advanced years by inferring they can't remember precise details. Some young people can't remember precise details eg T9 all of whom were in their 30's at the time. PF's niece described her as "very astute".
Some posts doubt Mrs Fenn on the basis that members of T9 were in apartments that night, 1st May, due to either themselves being unwell or their children who were attended to by their parents but I can't see any evidence of this? Afaik on 1st May all the adults were at tapas from 8.30 pm until close of play?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2019, 09:39:07 AM
But PF phoned her friend Edna Glyn to discuss the crying so may well have had a strong reference point in terms of looking up the phone bill. In the absence of such I don't think it would be difficult to remember that a child who she believes she heard crying for some 1.25 hours then disappeared off the face of the earth 2 evenings later from an apartment directly below hers. Also her niece visited on 3rd May and took PF to lunch at her favourite fish restaurant in nearby Lagos so another reason she may well have remembered the day/night in question. Also on 1st May it was her nieces birthday so it may well have stuck in her mind that this was the night she heard MM crying. I'm not old in the PF sense but personally I think its a bit disparaging to write off a witness on the basis of advanced years by inferring they can't remember precise details. Some young people can't remember precise details eg T9 all of whom were in their 30's at the time. PF's niece described her as "very astute".
Some posts doubt Mrs Fenn on the basis that members of T9 were in apartments that night, 1st May, due to either themselves being unwell or their children who were attended to by their parents but I can't see any evidence of this? Afaik on 1st May all the adults were at tapas from 8.30 pm until close of play?
It is alleged that Russell was absent from dinner on 1st, being at home with his sick child (again). It was the quiz night and the Aerobics instructor who ran the quiz was invited to the group's table where she stayed from 21:30 to 21:50. She said there was an empty place at the table; someone 'who had had dinner and left'. Of course there could have been two empty places. Unless she took her own chair she was sitting in one of the 9 chairs already there. She was shown photos, but was unable to identify the missing person(s).
It is alleged that Russell was absent from dinner on 1st, being at home with his sick child (again). It was the quiz night and the Aerobics instructor who ran the quiz was invited to the group's table where she stayed from 21:30 to 21:50. She said there was an empty place at the table; someone 'who had had dinner and left'. Of course there could have been two empty places. Unless she took her own chair she was sitting in one of the 9 chairs already there. She was shown photos, but was unable to identify the missing person(s).
ROB/JT were diagonal to PF and one apartment removed so unlikely PF heard either of the OB girls.
Does ROB or any of the others make ref to his absence on 1st May?
I wasn't suggesting that she did, I was replying to your post where you said you thought they were all present at dinner on Tuesday. They weren't. Yes they did mention it, that's how I know about it. Even Kate mentioned it in her book;
Only two minor aspects of that evening stand out as differing from the norm. The first was that Russell didn’t join us for dinner. Evie wasn’t well so he stayed with their girls in the apartment and Jane took his meal to him there. The second was that some time in the early hours Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us. [madeleine]
She forgot all about winning the quiz, and her husband inviting Nouja to join them at the table.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 11, 2019, 11:40:21 AM
I wasn't suggesting that she did, I was replying to your post where you said you thought they were all present at dinner on Tuesday. They weren't. Yes they did mention it, that's how I know about it. Even Kate mentioned it in her book;
Only two minor aspects of that evening stand out as differing from the norm. The first was that Russell didn’t join us for dinner. Evie wasn’t well so he stayed with their girls in the apartment and Jane took his meal to him there. The second was that some time in the early hours Madeleine came through to our bedroom, complaining that Amelie was crying and had woken her up. Gerry checked on Amelie, who settled quickly, and we let Madeleine jump into bed with us. [madeleine]
She forgot all about winning the quiz, and her husband inviting Nouja to join them at the table.
Well according to ROB he thought he was it was the Mon eve on the basis he recalled the quiz night on Tue:
I know that on one of the evenings either Monday or Tuesday I stayed in the flat with Evie as she wasn’t well Jane brought my meals over to me this was mentioned in my first statement. I feel that this is more likely to have been Monday as I feel that we were all together as a group on Tuesday- nine adults. I believe that this was when the Trivia quiz had taken place.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2019, 05:57:27 PM
Well according to ROB he thought he was it was the Mon eve on the basis he recalled the quiz night on Tue:
I know that on one of the evenings either Monday or Tuesday I stayed in the flat with Evie as she wasn’t well Jane brought my meals over to me this was mentioned in my first statement. I feel that this is more likely to have been Monday as I feel that we were all together as a group on Tuesday- nine adults. I believe that this was when the Trivia quiz had taken place.
Later he says;
I think it was Monday night because, erm, I have this recollection that on Tuesday it was the first night we’d all been together, the nine of us, actually, you know, present”.
1578 “Yes”. Reply “However Jane actually thinks that it was, erm, Tuesday, it was probably Tuesday night, so we’re, we’re not entirely sure. I don’t know if that’s going to be very relevant, but I thought it was Monday and Jane thinks it might have been Tuesday”. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
So Jane and Kate say Tuesday.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 12, 2019, 08:02:28 AM
I think it was Monday night because, erm, I have this recollection that on Tuesday it was the first night we’d all been together, the nine of us, actually, you know, present”.
1578 “Yes”. Reply “However Jane actually thinks that it was, erm, Tuesday, it was probably Tuesday night, so we’re, we’re not entirely sure. I don’t know if that’s going to be very relevant, but I thought it was Monday and Jane thinks it might have been Tuesday”. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm
So Jane and Kate say Tuesday.
Ok thanks. As I said I'm only just reading them. I wonder if the authorities ever dissected them in terms of amalgamating them and then placing them all into some sort of chronological and thematic order? This seems to me the way to go and get the max out of them. Clearly some aspects are more important than others. It seems to me much is surplus to requirements and/or some aspects are clearly far more important than others eg the breakfast, lunch, arrangements probably of little or no relevance but dinner at tapas, the checking and nighttime security of apartments very relevant.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2019, 10:23:02 AM
Ok thanks. As I said I'm only just reading them. I wonder if the authorities ever dissected them in terms of amalgamating them and then placing them all into some sort of chronological and thematic order? This seems to me the way to go and get the max out of them. Clearly some aspects are more important than others. It seems to me much is surplus to requirements and/or some aspects are clearly far more important than others eg the breakfast, lunch, arrangements probably of little or no relevance but dinner at tapas, the checking and nighttime security of apartments very relevant.
The most revealing imo are the rog interviews. Unsurprisingly they were wary; particularly one of them who took refuge in remembering nothing in particular. We also have evidence in those interviews that they were discussed with the police before being recorded. Finally, two had to be re-done, apparently due to equipment failure. Even so, I found interesting snippets in them. I think all aspects are important because of what they tell us about interactions between the witnesses over time. Dianne's amazing recovered memory of seeing Matthew, for example.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 12, 2019, 10:35:11 AM
The most revealing imo are the rog interviews. Unsurprisingly they were wary; particularly one of them who took refuge in remembering nothing in particular. We also have evidence in those interviews that they were discussed with the police before being recorded. Finally, two had to be re-done, apparently due to equipment failure. Even so, I found interesting snippets in them. I think all aspects are important because of what they tell us about interactions between the witnesses over time. Dianne's amazing recovered memory of seeing Matthew, for example.
What do they tell us about the interactions between the witnesses over time? What exactly do the rogs reveal to you that has any bearing on what happened to Madeleine?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 12, 2019, 11:06:01 AM
The most revealing imo are the rog interviews. Unsurprisingly they were wary; particularly one of them who took refuge in remembering nothing in particular. We also have evidence in those interviews that they were discussed with the police before being recorded. Finally, two had to be re-done, apparently due to equipment failure. Even so, I found interesting snippets in them. I think all aspects are important because of what they tell us about interactions between the witnesses over time. Dianne's amazing recovered memory of seeing Matthew, for example.
People interpret things differently but for me they are just a bunch of people on a week's break having an uneventful time: breakfast, creche, lunch, creche, all interspersed with tennis lessons, water sports and jogs followed by a jolly up in the evening at tapas.
I would be more concerned if they were all in perfect synch or anything close. No reason why people would have perfect recall over the minutiae.
At most I think some may be reticent with the extent of the checks and the security of the apartments. Eg KM makes clear the patio doors were always unlocked in the evening and yet GM said the opposite initially. If they were attempting to cover something up you would think the pair would get this part of their story right. Imo GM is just trying to deflect blame as with the benefit of hindsight he came to understand the decision to leave the children in the unlocked apartment was absolute madness. This is key imo. The abductor knew MM was in the apartment without adult supervision/baby monitor AND knew it was unlocked both of which only a finite number of people knew about.
One thing that does stand out for me in all the wit stats and rogs is that I haven't seen any mention of cars in the car park or immediate vicinity. T9 didn't raise nor does it seem they were asked?
The listening service available at other MW resorts is completely different in that a MW member of staff patrols locked apartments by listening for any disturbance. If a would be abductor wanted to enter they would need to force entry and this would act as a significant deterrent as most would realise the noise made and time taken would be high risk in that in all probability they would get caught. In this case all the abductor needed to do was to sneak in the patio door, stage the window and shutter, scoop up MM, exit via the front door and drive off. Could all be done in well under 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on September 15, 2019, 01:39:04 AM
In this video Gerry McCann can be seen sliding the patio door of 5A. After listening to the level of sound it made, do posters believe Mrs Fenn could possibly have heard it though the noise of the alleged crying? IMO the noise from the door is minimal.
https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=769
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Myster on September 15, 2019, 07:45:33 AM
In this video Gerry McCann can be seen sliding the patio door of 5A. After listening to the level of sound it made, do posters believe Mrs Fenn could possibly have heard it though the noise of the alleged crying? IMO the noise from the door is minimal.
Listening to an audio recording of a sliding door with background din from a narrator on computer speakers is totally different to listening live in situ from the flat above 5a.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 15, 2019, 08:39:25 AM
Listening to an audio recording of a sliding door with background din from a narrator on computer speakers is totally different to listening live in situ from the flat above 5a.
Sliding glass doors tend by their nature not to be very noisy, especially if you don’t have to unlock them first.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2019, 08:44:55 AM
Listening to an audio recording of a sliding door with background din from a narrator on computer speakers is totally different to listening live in situ from the flat above 5a.
What a shame we don't have an audio or a video recording of Mrs Fenn's statement, or anyone else's for that matter, to enable us to judge the accuracy and quality of the internet copies of the files and their translation.
Has Mrs Fenn's friend confirmed the phone call with crying child in the background?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 15, 2019, 08:48:04 AM
In this video Gerry McCann can be seen sliding the patio door of 5A. After listening to the level of sound it made, do posters believe Mrs Fenn could possibly have heard it though the noise of the alleged crying? IMO the noise from the door is minimal.
https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=769
Are you assuming? She may well have turned her TV off and gone out onto her balcony to pinpoint the source of the crying. If she then left the door open it's possible she could hear more than you think.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2019, 08:50:20 AM
Sliding glass doors tend by their nature not to be very noisy, especially if you don’t have to unlock them first.
Mine certainly aren't noisy at all and they are quite substantial ones. There is also a video of Amaral opening the sliding doors of 5A with fingertip ease.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 15, 2019, 08:54:16 AM
Are you assuming? She may well have turned her TV off and gone out onto her balcony to pinpoint the source of the crying. If she then left the door open it's possible she could hear more than you think.
Did she say she did any of those things or are you assuming?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Myster on September 15, 2019, 09:55:50 AM
Mine certainly aren't noisy at all and they are quite substantial ones. There is also a video of Amaral opening the sliding doors of 5A with fingertip ease.
Mine are noisy, heavy aluminium (Fit the best... Everest). But this is 5A's door, sounding louder than in the earlier video...
It’s a recreation is it not? I wonder if it was done in Apartment 5a or another apartment. Not that it really matters, I expect the doors all make an audible noise when you walk through them with recording equipment.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Myster on September 15, 2019, 12:08:00 PM
It’s a recreation is it not? I wonder if it was done in Apartment 5a or another apartment. Not that it really matters, I expect the doors all make an audible noise when you walk through them with recording equipment.
Going through it and pausing at key points to compare front door, furniture, bathroom washbasin, kitchen sink with a plan, it looks very much like 5A. The night view of Tapas bar lights from the McCann's bedroom could also indicate the actual flat position at the end of the block.
(https://i.imgur.com/uVawMtZ.jpg)
We really need to be on location to judge the true sound level of that sliding door.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 15, 2019, 12:21:32 PM
Going through it and pausing at key points to compare front door, furniture, bathroom washbasin, kitchen sink with a plan, it looks very much like 5A. The night view of Tapas bar lights from the McCann's bedroom could also indicate the actual flat position at the end of the block.
(https://i.imgur.com/uVawMtZ.jpg)
We really need to be on location to judge the true sound level of that sliding door.
We really needed to be there to judge alot of things, doesn't stop people though does it?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on September 15, 2019, 12:35:43 PM
We really needed to be there to judge alot of things, doesn't stop people though does it?
Not to worry, Dr G. will soon put an end to our misery 8((()*/ ... or not. 8(8-))
BTW - My mistake, I said the Tapas Bar night view was shot from the McCann's bedroom window, but when looking at it again it seems to more likely to be from the access balcony outside the patio door.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 15, 2019, 12:48:55 PM
It’s a recreation is it not? I wonder if it was done in Apartment 5a or another apartment. Not that it really matters, I expect the doors all make an audible noise when you walk through them with recording equipment.
If an abductor slipped in via the patio doors he/she would be mindful of noise and there would be no need for him/her to slide them right over just enough to slip in. If my suspect is correct I would describe the person as petite. This also corroborates the fingerprint evidence on the shutter where an unidentified print was found and thought to originate from a youth or woman but not not a child.
Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what PF actually heard. What's important is who she was discussing all this with and who they might have repeated to and who overheard.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 15, 2019, 12:53:04 PM
Not to worry, Dr G. will soon put an end to our misery 8((()*/ ... or not. 8(8-))
BTW - My mistake, I said the Tapas Bar night view was shot from the McCann's bedroom window, but when looking at it again it seems to more likely to be from the access balcony outside the patio door.
This case is akin to the nursery slopes. With JB/WHF we were skiing off piste. 8(>(( ?>)()<
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on September 15, 2019, 12:54:18 PM
That was filmed in apartment G4A, not 5A. (Kitchen has a table in it & patio furniture differs, other differences too) https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=80
You can also hear the patio door in 4A here in same video. https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=399
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 15, 2019, 12:57:07 PM
Now you've gone and upset the 'google earthers' 8)><(
I should think this goes against the grain with most armchair detectives who think they can crack the case at several removes from all the evidence, the locale, the protagonists, etc.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 15, 2019, 12:58:26 PM
If an abductor slipped in via the patio doors he/she would be mindful of noise and there would be no need for him/her to slide them right over just enough to slip in. If my suspect is correct I would describe the person as petite. This also corroborates the fingerprint evidence on the shutter where an unidentified print was found and thought to originate from a youth or woman but not not a child.
Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what PF actually heard. What's important is who she was discussing all this with and who they might have repeated to and who overheard.
Hmmm, using my Sherlock-like powers of deduction am I right in thinking your suspect is of the female persuasion?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 15, 2019, 01:00:10 PM
That was filmed in apartment G4A, not 5A. (Kitchen has a table in it & patio furniture differs, other differences too) https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=80
You can also hear the patio door in 4A here in same video. https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=399
R2D2 appears to have been present during the filming of the second video.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Myster on September 15, 2019, 01:08:23 PM
That was filmed in apartment G4A, not 5A. (Kitchen has a table in it & patio furniture differs, other differences too) https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=80 (https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=80)
You can also hear the patio door in 4A here in same video. https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=399 (https://youtu.be/FxUdEnQ_r9M?t=399)
Ah, Ok... I stand corrected. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 15, 2019, 05:33:35 PM
If an abductor slipped in via the patio doors he/she would be mindful of noise and there would be no need for him/her to slide them right over just enough to slip in. If my suspect is correct I would describe the person as petite. This also corroborates the fingerprint evidence on the shutter where an unidentified print was found and thought to originate from a youth or woman but not not a child.
Bottom line is that it doesn't matter what PF actually heard. What's important is who she was discussing all this with and who they might have repeated to and who overheard.
Why someone would slip in via the patio doors and then handle the shutters I can't imagine.
However. The PJ recovered 5 of Kate McCann's fingerprints from the inside of the children's bedroom window. Three were from the middle finger of her left hand, the other two being from her forefinger. Then on 4th they found;
Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
So the only adequate print was from the patio door, and that was identified as being from one of the GNR officers. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on September 15, 2019, 05:53:38 PM
So no identifiable prints from persons who said they used the doors that evening.
Is it normal for fingerprints to be so unreliable ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Brietta on September 15, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
So no identifiable prints from persons who said they used the doors that evening.
Is it normal for fingerprints to be so unreliable ?
It can depend very much on who is taking them. Kate and Gerry had to have theirs taken again and I believe the officers dusting for prints in the first instance didn't manage to make a very good job of it and it had to be done again.
In those circumstances I think vital evidence may very well have been destroyed.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: kmc on September 15, 2019, 07:07:14 PM
Reference the Fenn statement - what if Jenny Murat muddled the date she saw the lady in purple/plum? She made no mention of it in her PJ statement, even though she included the timing of her trip to Batista to buy bread on 3rd May. Then considering the number of years it took to finally talk to the press and her advancing age, I wonder if it is possible that she may have seen the suspicious woman on Tuesday, 1st May. In which case, the Jorge Alberto Bandara Rocha statement and Mrs Fenn’s statement about crying may connect up. Anyhow, even if this theory is wholly incorrect the Jorge Arturo statement is worth looking at i.e. mention of overenthusiastic photographing, taking the time to book in low season yet gobbling down dinner, the women’s clothing description and the question of the name of a fish in German, conveniently answered by a nearby German couple. (Of course there is also Jeremy Wilkins lady in purple on 3rd May, but as far as I can see, only mention was made of lady in purple whom he believed to be Jane Tanner once he got back to the UK. As a result, perhaps he did see Jane heading for dinner, but because she wore so much purple in the media his brain/memory associated her with the colour).
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 15, 2019, 08:52:33 PM
Why someone would slip in via the patio doors and then handle the shutters I can't imagine.
However. The PJ recovered 5 of Kate McCann's fingerprints from the inside of the children's bedroom window. Three were from the middle finger of her left hand, the other two being from her forefinger. Then on 4th they found;
Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
So the only adequate print was from the patio door, and that was identified as being from one of the GNR officers. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm
IP Wiesbaden informed us that two of the samples cannot be used for comparison, the other was possible for comparison, nothing being found in our files. However IP Wiesbaden states that this sample could have been left by a woman or a youth, but not by a small girl.
I researched fingerprints extensively on the Bamber case. Myster will confirm (he has seen the email communication) I was assisted by arguably the world's expert on fingerprints, a physicist who developed a pioneering method to recover latent fingerprints from small cylindrical objects. ?>)()<
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 15, 2019, 08:57:47 PM
Reference the Fenn statement - what if Jenny Murat muddled the date she saw the lady in purple/plum? She made no mention of it in her PJ statement, even though she included the timing of her trip to Batista to buy bread on 3rd May. Then considering the number of years it took to finally talk to the press and her advancing age, I wonder if it is possible that she may have seen the suspicious woman on Tuesday, 1st May. In which case, the Jorge Alberto Bandara Rocha statement and Mrs Fenn’s statement about crying may connect up. Anyhow, even if this theory is wholly incorrect the Jorge Arturo statement is worth looking at i.e. mention of overenthusiastic photographing, taking the time to book in low season yet gobbling down dinner, the women’s clothing description and the question of the name of a fish in German, conveniently answered by a nearby German couple. (Of course there is also Jeremy Wilkins lady in purple on 3rd May, but as far as I can see, only mention was made of lady in purple whom he believed to be Jane Tanner once he got back to the UK. As a result, perhaps he did see Jane heading for dinner, but because she wore so much purple in the media his brain/memory associated her with the colour).
kmc, you don't seem to have much faith in the recollections of the elderly?
I thought on 3rd May JT borrowed ROB's blue jumper as she was feeling chilly?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 15, 2019, 09:05:37 PM
IP Wiesbaden informed us that two of the samples cannot be used for comparison, the other was possible for comparison, nothing being found in our files. However IP Wiesbaden states that this sample could have been left by a woman or a youth, but not by a small girl.
I researched fingerprints extensively on the Bamber case. Myster will confirm (he has seen the email communication) I was assisted by arguably the world's expert on fingerprints, a physicist who developed a pioneering method to recover latent fingerprints from small cylindrical objects. ?>)()<
Why would someone touch the shutters? I assume they'd use the strap to open the from the inside.
That quote is in the files, but isn't connected to any fingerprints found on the shutters imo. It seems to be an opinion from Interpol in Wiesbaden.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 15, 2019, 09:44:32 PM
Where in your opinion was the unidentified fingerprint collected from?
A total of 13 prints were found, 12 of which were described as 'inadequate'. The only 'adequate' one was taken from the side of the patio door. On 18th May the one finger print 'with sufficient value for identification' was identified as belonging to Nelson da Costa, GNR. That would be the one from the side of the patio door then imo.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: kmc on September 16, 2019, 09:05:38 AM
kmc, you don't seem to have much faith in the recollections of the elderly?
I thought on 3rd May JT borrowed ROB's blue jumper as she was feeling chilly?
JT did borrow Rob's blue fleece/jumper - we just don't have confirmation of exactly when she borrowed it - but she does mention wearing it during during her 21.10 check. She also makes no mention of personally showering/changing for dinner that evening, however, she played tennis with Rachel early afternoon, so there is a good chance she showered and changed before their afternoon trip to the beach. In CCTV images at the beach she appears to be wearing trousers and a long sleeved purplish V necked top. We also know she wore flip flops to dinner, so I assume she may well have been in the same outfit and her choice of footwear indicates she wasn't well prepared for the cold weather. Her partner joined the dinner maybe 20 mins after her and so I think there is a good chance she asked to borrow his fleece when he arrived, as by 20.45 it would have become darker and colder. If this is the case, her top at 20.30 would have been quite different from the top she was wearing 40 mins later and was quite likely the same one she is seen wearing in the CCTV, which looks purplish in the one image that has a little colour.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 16, 2019, 10:54:26 AM
A total of 13 prints were found, 12 of which were described as 'inadequate'. The only 'adequate' one was taken from the side of the patio door. On 18th May the one finger print 'with sufficient value for identification' was identified as belonging to Nelson da Costa, GNR. That would be the one from the side of the patio door then imo.
What about those pertaining to KM?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 16, 2019, 11:01:57 AM
JT did borrow Rob's blue fleece/jumper - we just don't have confirmation of exactly when she borrowed it - but she does mention wearing it during during her 21.10 check. She also makes no mention of personally showering/changing for dinner that evening, however, she played tennis with Rachel early afternoon, so there is a good chance she showered and changed before their afternoon trip to the beach. In CCTV images at the beach she appears to be wearing trousers and a long sleeved purplish V necked top. We also know she wore flip flops to dinner, so I assume she may well have been in the same outfit and her choice of footwear indicates she wasn't well prepared for the cold weather. Her partner joined the dinner maybe 20 mins after her and so I think there is a good chance she asked to borrow his fleece when he arrived, as by 20.45 it would have become darker and colder. If this is the case, her top at 20.30 would have been quite different from the top she was wearing 40 mins later and was quite likely the same one she is seen wearing in the CCTV, which looks purplish in the one image that has a little colour.
The cctv footage I've seen of the beach bar/cafe/restaurant is so grainy I'm unable to distinguish colours. Do you have access to better quality footage?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2019, 11:27:24 AM
So no identifiable prints from persons who said they used the doors that evening.
Is it normal for fingerprints to be so unreliable ?
No, just a fingerprint from a GNR officer after one visit to the apartment. I wish I knew where Kate McCann's prints were located on the children's bedroom window. The handle appears to be situated on the left side of the right hand window, so when that window was fully opened the handle would be on the far left of the window as a whole.
I assume, therefore, that the prints were on the right hand side of the window where one would place one hand if leaning out. There are 3 prints from her middle finger and 2 from her forefinger. I can understand the two fingers leaving 2 pairs of prints, although I would have expected more fingers to be used. Who uses just the middle finger to steady them when leaning out of a window though?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 16, 2019, 12:03:06 PM
I've copied the links to posts re fingerprints here:
The cctv footage I've seen of the beach bar/cafe/restaurant is so grainy I'm unable to distinguish colours. Do you have access to better quality footage?
I am not sure how clear these images will be, but the shirt she is wearing definitely looks purplish, especially in larger format. It also looks remarkably like the same purple shirt she is photographed in at a later stage. Additionally, JW made it very clear, at the time, that although he did not know her name he did recognise her as part of the holiday group - so again, I do not think Mrs Murat's sighting and JW's sighting were of the same person. The timings don't fit and neither do the overall descriptions of clothing or build. I only know of one other person recorded in the files as wearing a purple jacket and it wasn't Jane Tanner.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 16, 2019, 09:21:29 PM
I am not sure how clear these images will be, but the shirt she is wearing definitely looks purplish, especially in larger format. It also looks remarkably like the same purple shirt she is photographed in at a later stage. Additionally, JW made it very clear, at the time, that although he did not know her name he did recognise her as part of the holiday group - so again, I do not think Mrs Murat's sighting and JW's sighting were of the same person. The timings don't fit and neither do the overall descriptions of clothing or build. I only know of one other person recorded in the files as wearing a purple jacket and it wasn't Jane Tanner.
Those that can view the video - do you agree that the person identified on the second photo is "David Payne"? IMO that person looks more female than male?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on September 16, 2019, 10:10:24 PM
Reference the Fenn statement - what if Jenny Murat muddled the date she saw the lady in purple/plum? She made no mention of it in her PJ statement, even though she included the timing of her trip to Batista to buy bread on 3rd May. Then considering the number of years it took to finally talk to the press and her advancing age, I wonder if it is possible that she may have seen the suspicious woman on Tuesday, 1st May. In which case, the Jorge Alberto Bandara Rocha statement and Mrs Fenn’s statement about crying may connect up. Anyhow, even if this theory is wholly incorrect the Jorge Arturo statement is worth looking at i.e. mention of overenthusiastic photographing, taking the time to book in low season yet gobbling down dinner, the women’s clothing description and the question of the name of a fish in German, conveniently answered by a nearby German couple. (Of course there is also Jeremy Wilkins lady in purple on 3rd May, but as far as I can see, only mention was made of lady in purple whom he believed to be Jane Tanner once he got back to the UK. As a result, perhaps he did see Jane heading for dinner, but because she wore so much purple in the media his brain/memory associated her with the colour).
The people dining in the Refugio restaurant were identified as Wojciech Kamil Krokowski and Anetta Malgorzata Krokowski Jarosinska, who were staying at Sol e Mar apartments in Burgau. The restaurant booking is confirmed here in PJ files https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_845.jpg.
The original report of the woman in purple said she was wearing a white skirt & had long dark hair. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg183106#msg183106 That doesn't tally with the description given by Jorge Rocha, who said she was blonde & wearing a beige dress(?) & trousers.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: kmc on September 17, 2019, 12:08:02 AM
The people dining in the Refugio restaurant were identified as Wojciech Kamil Krokowski and Anetta Malgorzata Krokowski Jarosinska, who were staying at Sol e Mar apartments in Burgau. The restaurant booking is confirmed here in PJ files https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_845.jpg.
The original report of the woman in purple said she was wearing a white skirt & had long dark hair. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2705.msg183106#msg183106 That doesn't tally with the description given by Jorge Rocha, who said she was blonde & wearing a beige dress(?) & trousers.
That is true, but if you look at the CCTV image of her - she has a glimpse of tiny leggings under a dress, most people would not even notice them, so perhaps the description of a dress over trousers is more like what she is wearing in the image. Also, I assume that a beige dress under a purple jacket could be observed by someone driving past as a white skirt, especially at that time of the day and in the shadows/or under a street light. The hair, I agree is an issue but I am not sure how major it is - hair can be dyed/ people can wear wigs and also Jenny Murat's statement changes from 2009 to years later only remembering mainly that she wore a purple jacket. Also, I don't know why but I have some niggling recollection that in the days just after MM's abduction, the press who did live interviews on TV talked about rumours of a blonde woman being seen near the apartment...but because there is no way of searching it like an article as those kinds of clips are impossible to find. Anyhow, the couple may well be wholly innocent, I just think it is odd that both the descriptions of the people seen so near the apartment - have a lot of similarities to them and more odd that they are only in the files because some guy thought they were trying to abduct his kid days before. Maybe all a co-incidence but for all the people who think the parents should have been properly interviewed and ruled out, I would think the same should have been done for them - even if it is a coincidence.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on September 17, 2019, 01:38:20 AM
That is true, but if you look at the CCTV image of her - she has a glimpse of tiny leggings under a dress, most people would not even notice them, so perhaps the description of a dress over trousers is more like what she is wearing in the image. Also, I assume that a beige dress under a purple jacket could be observed by someone driving past as a white skirt, especially at that time of the day and in the shadows/or under a street light. The hair, I agree is an issue but I am not sure how major it is - hair can be dyed/ people can wear wigs and also Jenny Murat's statement changes from 2009 to years later only remembering mainly that she wore a purple jacket. Also, I don't know why but I have some niggling recollection that in the days just after MM's abduction, the press who did live interviews on TV talked about rumours of a blonde woman being seen near the apartment...but because there is no way of searching it like an article as those kinds of clips are impossible to find. Anyhow, the couple may well be wholly innocent, I just think it is odd that both the descriptions of the people seen so near the apartment - have a lot of similarities to them and more odd that they are only in the files because some guy thought they were trying to abduct his kid days before. Maybe all a co-incidence but for all the people who think the parents should have been properly interviewed and ruled out, I would think the same should have been done for them - even if it is a coincidence.
The Polish couple were investigated by both PJ & Polish police, although not to the extent of obtaining the camera WK used to take photographs in Luz. IMO the time-frame for this couple on Tuesday evening, starting with dinner at 7.15pm in Burgau, does not really gel with the female diner being seen outside 5A at around 8pm. I am of the opinion that Jenny Murat's alleged sighting of a woman in purple would have been mentioned in May 2007 when she gave her witness statement, after her son had just become the focus of PJ attention. A woman dressed in a purple top on 3rd & 4th May 2007 & having dark hair was, of course, instrumental in that line of investigation. JM can be seen here on this video at 38secs (red top & grey trousers) walking along the pavement past Block 5 on morning of 4th May as Jane (hair tied back) is waiting to get into the PJ vehicle. https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/exterior-shots-of-gerry-and-kate-mccann-departing-the-news-footage/487715646?adppopup=true
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 17, 2019, 07:18:15 PM
In this video Gerry McCann can be seen sliding the patio door of 5A. After listening to the level of sound it made, do posters believe Mrs Fenn could possibly have heard it though the noise of the alleged crying? IMO the noise from the door is minimal.
https://youtu.be/atfDV7imHHY?t=769
Nice try Misty. The background sound of the patio doors is turned down to allow the narrator in the film to inform us about Gerry going in to the apartment- hence no sound of the doors. The patio door in G4a are the same as 5a.
So now I have to ask why would Mrs F make up a story like that I wonder, what did she have to gain, and what did the McCanns have to lose, apart from their reputation for leaving their children alone and crying for over an hour?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: misty on September 21, 2019, 10:14:36 PM
Nice try Misty. The background sound of the patio doors is turned down to allow the narrator in the film to inform us about Gerry going in to the apartment- hence no sound of the doors. The patio door in G4a are the same as 5a.
So now I have to ask why would Mrs F make up a story like that I wonder, what did she have to gain, and what did the McCanns have to lose, apart from their reputation for leaving their children alone and crying for over an hour?
You can hear the patio doors of G4A here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxUdEnQ_r9M&feature=youtu.be&t=399 To my untrained ear they sound pretty much the same as 5A. *%87 I'd rather ask why the PJ paid scant attention to Mrs Fenn's report of a home intruder in the days before Madeleine went missing immediately an abduction had been reported in the apartment below hers, preferring to concentrate weeks later on the crying of an unknown child in the same block.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 21, 2019, 10:23:37 PM
Nice try Misty. The background sound of the patio doors is turned down to allow the narrator in the film to inform us about Gerry going in to the apartment- hence no sound of the doors. The patio door in G4a are the same as 5a.
So now I have to ask why would Mrs F make up a story like that I wonder, what did she have to gain, and what did the McCanns have to lose, apart from their reputation for leaving their children alone and crying for over an hour?
There's no reason for Mrs Fenn to make anything up but the question is,... How accurate, is her memory
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: puglove on September 22, 2019, 12:14:23 AM
There's no reason for Mrs Fenn to make anything up but the question is,... How accurate, is her memory
Well, what do you think? You seem to have all the answers. Or one of your many brood of children do. Mrs. Fenn heard a child crying, for longer than a small child should cry if a parent was in the apartment, then a door was opened, and the child stopped crying. It really isn't rocket science.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: puglove on September 22, 2019, 12:33:48 AM
I know this doesn't help, and it's old, old, old.....but no one in their right mind would put empty pleasures before the safety of their children. But the Mcanns, from "f..k off" on the journey to "it was too dark to search" when it all went wrong didn't seem to care about anything except their images of themselves. I hope to god that I'm never in that desperate place, but I doubt that I would worry about my highlights and earrings. And the hand-holding thing.....
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 22, 2019, 08:03:21 AM
I know this doesn't help, and it's old, old, old.....but no one in their right mind would put empty pleasures before the safety of their children. But the Mcanns, from "f..k off" on the journey to "it was too dark to search" when it all went wrong didn't seem to care about anything except their images of themselves. I hope to god that I'm never in that desperate place, but I doubt that I would worry about my highlights and earrings. And the hand-holding thing.....
Do you have a cite for “worrying about highlights and earrings” and what is it exactly that you object to regarding the hand-holding thing...? Anyone else got any tired old tropes they want to bring to the party this Sunday morning?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2019, 08:29:05 AM
Do you have a cite for “worrying about highlights and earrings” and what is it exactly that you object to regarding the hand-holding thing...? Anyone else got any tired old tropes they want to bring to the party this Sunday morning?
Is it seriously worth talking about? But do carry on y'all. Any old rubbish will do at the moment.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 22, 2019, 08:38:07 AM
Is it seriously worth talking about? But do carry on y'all. Any old rubbish will do at the moment.
It’s literally been years since I saw anyone complaining about Kate’s earrings, perhaps Holly could start a thread about them, examining their significance in the case.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2019, 08:50:00 AM
It’s literally been years since I saw anyone complaining about Kate’s earrings, perhaps Holly could start a thread about them, examining their significance in the case.
What a good idea. That could keep us going for a couple of pages. Okay, just one page. It's pissing down here, so anything will do.
Sorry, I dare not start such a Thread myself. I might die laughing.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 22, 2019, 08:56:52 AM
Do you have a cite for “worrying about highlights and earrings” and what is it exactly that you object to regarding the hand-holding thing...? Anyone else got any tired old tropes they want to bring to the party this Sunday morning?
You've got a Cipriano thread when there's a perfectly good Cipriano forum.
I gues you just can't win.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: puglove on September 22, 2019, 08:58:07 AM
Do you have a cite for “worrying about highlights and earrings” and what is it exactly that you object to regarding the hand-holding thing...? Anyone else got any tired old tropes they want to bring to the party this Sunday morning?
Yes, you're right, it was a cheap shot, a bit shabby. We all cope in our own ways. I just find them a very odd couple, and I now understand how otherwise intelligent and sensible people think that they might be guilty in some way. Kate should never have written that book.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 22, 2019, 08:59:44 AM
Yes, you're right, it was a cheap shot, a bit shabby. We all cope in our own ways. I just find them a very odd couple, and I now understand how otherwise intelligent and sensible people think that they might be guilty in some way. Kate should never have written that book.
Why not? Was she not entitled to write one, or should that have been strictly the preserve of the dishonest ex-cop who got booted off the case mid way through?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Eleanor on September 22, 2019, 09:13:32 AM
Yes, you're right, it was a cheap shot, a bit shabby. We all cope in our own ways. I just find them a very odd couple, and I now understand how otherwise intelligent and sensible people think that they might be guilty in some way. Kate should never have written that book.
Why not? It was her way of coping. Do you have the same to say about Amaral?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on September 23, 2019, 09:20:31 AM
I know this doesn't help, and it's old, old, old.....but no one in their right mind would put empty pleasures before the safety of their children. But the Mcanns, from "f..k off" on the journey to "it was too dark to search" when it all went wrong didn't seem to care about anything except their images of themselves. I hope to god that I'm never in that desperate place, but I doubt that I would worry about my highlights and earrings. And the hand-holding thing.....
Could you give me a cite as to where the McCann's said 'it was too dark to search' please? Thanks
Have you ever wondered if Kate's hair had just bleached in the sun and that she didn't take her earrings out?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on September 23, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Yes, you're right, it was a cheap shot, a bit shabby. We all cope in our own ways. I just find them a very odd couple, and I now understand how otherwise intelligent and sensible people think that they might be guilty in some way. Kate should never have written that book.
Yes, you're right, it was a cheap shot, a bit shabby. We all cope in our own ways. I just find them a very odd couple, and I now understand how otherwise intelligent and sensible people think that they might be guilty in some way. Kate should never have written that book.
book not book!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on September 23, 2019, 10:27:47 AM
It’s literally been years since I saw anyone complaining about Kate’s earrings, perhaps Holly could start a thread about them, examining their significance in the case.
I don't know why they complain, Kate seems to be wearing the same earrings when I've seen her, looking as though she just left them in. They just like to pick on anything Kate McCann, trying to make her look as if she didn't care that Madeleine was missing.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 23, 2019, 11:59:00 AM
There's no reason for Mrs Fenn to make anything up but the question is,... How accurate, is her memory
Apparenly much better that the erm um you know ... erm um yeah like erer um.. T9 trying to recall important things but recalling minute details about stupid things.
from puglove "Kate should never have written that book.".. i never read it.some of my friends did and I saw unbelievable headlines on the paper racks. Kate moaning about how their daughters disapearance affected their sex life. FFS! and the utter shocking detailed accound of her daughters genetalia- wholly inappropriate!
I agree the book should never have been written it was a sham by all feedback heard.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Lace on September 23, 2019, 08:29:30 PM
Apparenly much better that the erm um you know ... erm um yeah like erer um.. T9 trying to recall important things but recalling minute details about stupid things.
from puglove "Kate should never have written that book.".. i never read it.some of my friends did and I saw unbelievable headlines on the paper racks. Kate moaning about how their daughters disapearance affected their sex life. FFS! and the utter shocking detailed accound of her daughters genetalia- wholly inappropriate!
I agree the book should never have been written it was a sham by all feedback heard.
Kate was not moaning that Madeleine's disappearance affected her sex life. Kate was pointing out how the visions of Madeleine if she was with a Paedophile turned her off sex. Something the father of Holly Wells praised her for bringing out in the open, but then you wouldn't understand these things.
The visions that Kate had were also what Gerry had, if your child is missing and you don't know where that child is or with whom your imagination would run riot. Images came into Kates head, images she could not stop from filling her brain. With what words would you describe it? Kate was being honest and if she upset snowflakes then so be it. Kate wanted the reader to actually imagintion the horror of what she was seeing and being tormented by and using the exact wordsto describe what she saw was the only way she could get that across.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on September 23, 2019, 08:32:01 PM
Kate was not moaning that Madeleine's disappearance affected her sex life. Kate was pointing out how the visions of Madeleine if she was with a Paedophile turned her off sex. Something the father of Holly Wells praised her for bringing out in the open, but then you wouldn't understand these things.
The visions that Kate had were also what Gerry had, if your child is missing and you don't know where that child is or with whom your imagination would run riot. Images came into Kates head, images she could not stop from filling her brain. With what words would you describe it? Kate was being honest and if she upset snowflakes then so be it. Kate wanted the reader to actually imagintion the horror of what she was seeing and being tormented by and using the exact wordsto describe what she saw was the only way she could get that across.
Why should she want that ?
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 23, 2019, 08:36:35 PM
Yes, I understand that, but why should SHE think we needed to know the details ?
To relate to the reader the full horror of having your child abducted. Then again if you didn't want to know, don't read the book in the first place.
Holly Wells father said he had a vision of Holly naked in a bath, that was before he found out what had happened to her. I bet some readers thought 'oh fancy saying he imagined his daughter naked in a bath'. Maybe if the murderer hadn't been caught and Holly's dad mentioned his vision, then some may have said he had killed her. That is how some people work.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 23, 2019, 08:50:53 PM
Apparenly much better that the erm um you know ... erm um yeah like erer um.. T9 trying to recall important things but recalling minute details about stupid things.
from puglove "Kate should never have written that book.".. i never read it.some of my friends did and I saw unbelievable headlines on the paper racks. Kate moaning about how their daughters disapearance affected their sex life. FFS! and the utter shocking detailed accound of her daughters genetalia- wholly inappropriate!
I agree the book should never have been written it was a sham by all feedback heard.
A detailed “accound” (sic) of her daughter’s genetalia??
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 23, 2019, 11:42:01 PM
Yes, I understand that, but why should SHE think we needed to know the details ?
Did it upset you? There are no in depth details, just a brief sentence conveying the horror of the kind of thoughts that go through the minds of those who believe their child may be in the hands of a paedophile. If you find such matters too disturbing to even think about then spending years and years frequenting forums where this supposedly contentious sentence is trotted out with tiresome regularity would seem an odd pastime for anyone so sensitive and easily shocked.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: jassi on September 24, 2019, 08:45:13 AM
Did it upset you? There are no in depth details, just a brief sentence conveying the horror of the kind of thoughts that go through the minds of those who believe their child may be in the hands of a paedophile. If you find such matters too disturbing to even think about then spending years and years frequenting forums where this supposedly contentious sentence is trotted out with tiresome regularity would seem an odd pastime for anyone so sensitive and easily shocked.
Not at all, I don'y give a monkey's for what she writes.
I was expressing surprise that others should be in the least interested in her utterings
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 24, 2019, 09:31:59 AM
Not at all, I don'y give a monkey's for what she writes.
I was expressing surprise that others should be in the least interested in her utterings
Yes, I find it similarly surprising that so many sceptics become morally righteous Mary Whithouses over the use of the words “torn genitals”. It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: The General on September 24, 2019, 10:03:27 AM
Yes, I find it similarly surprising that so many sceptics become morally righteous Mary Whithouses over the use of the words “torn genitals”. It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
I don't see it that way, I don't take exception to the words per se. I haven't read the book, so don't know the full context, but the phraseology does seem an odd way to describe the fate of your own daughter. I'm sure it was ghost written in some way, so maybe that was creative licence on their behalf.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 24, 2019, 10:25:04 AM
Yes, I find it similarly surprising that so many sceptics become morally righteous Mary Whithouses over the use of the words “torn genitals”. It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
I think it depends where you're coming from as to how you view this. For those that believe there was no abduction and T9 were involved it seems odd. For those of us who believe MM was abducted its entirely normal that you would jump to the conclusion the motive was sexual and your mind would gravitate to the sheer horror of a grown man sexually assaulting/raping a girl under 4 yoa. When KM published her book she was of the opinion 'Tannerman' was MM's abductor.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 24, 2019, 10:32:23 AM
I don't see it that way, I don't take exception to the words per se. I haven't read the book, so don't know the full context, but the phraseology does seem an odd way to describe the fate of your own daughter. I'm sure it was ghost written in some way, so maybe that was creative licence on their behalf.
I don’t think there is any evidence that the book was ghost-written, and I think Kate McCann is intelligent enough not to need a ghostwriter. Iin fact if anything that sentence is evidence to me that it wasn’t as it has a total ring of authenticity to it, something that someone whose child hadn’t gone missing in such circumstances might struggle to imagine themselves. But Kate’s book would certainly have been appraised by an editor who clearly did not think that that sentence was so beyond the pale as to need to be removed. I’ve only ever seen it criticised by self-righteous sceptics, I wonder why that is.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Holly Goodhead on September 24, 2019, 10:43:48 AM
KM acknowledges her editor, Caroline North, who apparently guided her and encouraged her through the process.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 24, 2019, 05:57:39 PM
Yes, I find it similarly surprising that so many sceptics become morally righteous Mary Whithouses over the use of the words “torn genitals”. It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
I am not sure what you may be driving at . But I do agree it is very creepy, it is as if she was telling us if Maddie was found the post mortem would discover this... Yes, very creepy indeed!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2019, 07:36:02 PM
It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
I am not sure what you may be driving at . But I do agree it is very creepy, it is as if she was telling us if Maddie was found the post mortem would discover this... Yes, very creepy indeed!
Yet you have no objection to the term. FGM... Which you seem to refer to on a daily basis
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 24, 2019, 07:41:36 PM
Yet you have no objection to the term. FGM... Which you seem to refer to on a daily basis
I do not refer to it on a daily basis at all! and I certainly do not go into the brutal details- I have no justification to do so, unless talking to a medical audience on physical/mental affects etc.
Also, it is important within the context of posts on a forum. Not a personal attribute as like Kates daughter!
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2019, 07:50:35 PM
I do not refer to it on a daily basis at all! and I certainly do not go into the brutal details- I have no justification to do so, unless talking to a medical audience on physical/mental affects etc.
Also, it is important within the context of posts on a forum. Not a personal attribute as like Kates daughter!
You've mentioned it in this forum several times... I don't see anything wrong with kates use of the word
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 24, 2019, 08:09:15 PM
You've mentioned it in this forum several times... I don't see anything wrong with kates use of the word
It may have escaped your notice, but many issues are mentioned more than once on this forum-like you and your dog threads where you turn most threads into one!
I have not challenged your right to 'not have a problem with Kates use of the words', so why do you feel the need to try and challenge my opinion? It is not up for discussion my opinion will not be swayed no point in tryng.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on September 24, 2019, 08:47:44 PM
It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
I am not sure what you may be driving at . But I do agree it is very creepy, it is as if she was telling us if Maddie was found the post mortem would discover this... Yes, very creepy indeed!
You have deliberately misunderstood. It is people who constantly return to this sentence to draw attention to the phrase they allegedly find so repellent that I find thoroughly creepy. Hope that’s now crystal clear.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Mr Gray on September 24, 2019, 09:13:21 PM
It may have escaped your notice, but many issues are mentioned more than once on this forum-like you and your dog threads where you turn most threads into one!
I have not challenged your right to 'not have a problem with Kates use of the words', so why do you feel the need to try and challenge my opinion? It is not up for discussion my opinion will not be swayed no point in tryng.
I'm not trying to sway anyones opinion.. It's no concern to me what you think... I'm just giving mine
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 25, 2019, 12:56:27 AM
It’s almost a case of protesting too much IMO, slightly creepy in other words.
I am not sure what you may be driving at . But I do agree it is very creepy, it is as if she was telling us if Maddie was found the post mortem would discover this... Yes, very creepy indeed!
In which case all the other parents of missing children who also imagine this happening to their child are also covering their backs as to what a post mortem would show.
Title: Re: Mrs Fenn and that crying child incident revisited.
Post by: Angelo222 on September 25, 2019, 01:49:15 PM