UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Carana on January 25, 2014, 08:54:29 PM
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If Amaral hadn't insinuated that the manuals found in the McCanns' villa were supposed to be confidential and for governmental agencies only, I would probably never have thought any more about them.
There is nothing confidential about those pamphlets... they're freely available on the Internet. So why did he and his pals make a big deal about them? They might even have helped if he'd read them.
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If Amaral hadn't insinuated that the manuals found in the McCanns' villa were supposed to be confidential and for governmental agencies only, I would probably never have thought any more about them.
There is nothing confidential about those pamphlets... they're freely available on the Internet. So why did he and his pals make a big deal about them? They might even have helped if he'd read them.
Prof Harrison MBA said so (how would the Portuguese have known ?). He might have been wrong. Do you exactly know which manuals were those ?
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Prof Harrison MBA said so (how would the Portuguese have known ?). He might have been wrong. Do you exactly know which manuals were those ?
From memory the ones visible in the video were:
A Scoping Project on Child Trafficking in the UK - June 2007
http://polis.osce.org/library/details?doc_id=2973&lang_tag=&qs=
Every Five Minutes
A Review of the Available Data on
Missing Children in the UK (PACT, 2005)
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:iVvohsAVTzYJ:www.gpdg.co.uk/pact_old/pdf/E5M.pdf+%22Every+Five+Minutes+:+A+review+of+the+available+data+on+missing+children+in+the+UK%22+%22&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESii516SZr_TRZwMWmeQox6ohhmV7lNpOsX_UoSgJTfuYz2NcL7upOVTonRWsNMucZguJtIRUgHGftyAyjrr6iuabJZ16lLh1OXAIcLGZ9r9Zlbn8pS3zWbkcfYAPe3kjrMrYtYj&sig=AHIEtbQi8U8R5b1FvV_XZ_Pi54fEfhOi0Q
The one that I have in mind in particular is:
Missing and Abducted Children:
A Law-Enforcement
Guide to Case Investigation and Program Management (Fourth Edition
2011)
www.missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC74.pdf
Although that link is for the 2011 edition, an earlier version has clearly been available to the public for years. This reading list was published in 2002.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/html/o[Name removed]dp/childmissing_guide_02/recread.html
ETA: I haven't double-checked the video. The Case Investigation was definitely one of the publications shown on the video.
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Making Every Child Matter... Everywhere (CEOP)
http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/22/making-every-child-matter-everywhere-ceop/
Training Courses, (CEOP Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre)
I can't find the link to these any more. The actual courses are restricted to police officers, but CEOP had pamphlets online (and presumably in printed version) in the education section describing the purpose and content of those courses.
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From his book:
With amazement the police officers discover a series of books and manuals exclusively intended for police services and government agencies.
- Missing and Abducted Children: A Law-Enforcement Guide to Case Investigation and Program Management, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children;
- Training Courses, (CEOP Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre);
- Making Every Child Matter…Everywhere, CEOP (Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre).
Mark Harrison himself wonders how Gerald McCann could have obtained these books.
Gerry visited CEOP and the NCMEC... so he was probably handed copies then. There's nothing restricted about any of them.
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From his book:
With amazement the police officers discover a series of books and manuals exclusively intended for police services and government agencies.
- Missing and Abducted Children: A Law-Enforcement Guide to Case Investigation and Program Management, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children;
- Training Courses, (CEOP Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre);
- Making Every Child Matter…Everywhere, CEOP (Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre).
Mark Harrison himself wonders how Gerald McCann could have obtained these books.
Gerry visited CEOP and the NCMEC... so he was probably handed copies then. There's nothing restricted about any of them.
Hi Carana, They were not restricted back then either ?
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Gerry visited CEOP and the NCMEC... so he was probably handed copies then. There's nothing restricted about any of them.
Likely. Do you think that, had Prof Harrison said those documents were downloadable, GA would pretend the contrary ?
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Hi Carana, They were not restricted back then either ?
Hi Anna,
There was no reason for them to be. If you check the link to "A Law-Enforcement Guide to Case Investigation and Program Management" (the second link that I posted), for example, it had been freely available to the public since at least 2002, if not before.
The insinuation that the McCanns had been given restricted publications for law enforcement and governments only based on what was found in the bedroom of the villa is rubbish. I checked for all of the ones mentioned way back when they were first mentioned and found them all online. It took about 5 minutes to find them and a few hours to read them.
Missing children seem to be a relatively rare phenomenon in Portugal compared to some other countries. My main point is that there are some useful guidelines in there that could be adapted to their context.
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Likely. Do you think that, had Prof Harrison said those documents were downloadable, GA would pretend the contrary ?
ETA: Was Harrison actually asked if they were downloadable or not?
It would depend on what the conversation actually was.
a) If Harrison had spontaneously said:"How on earth did he get hold of those publications?" (shock, horror) would be quite different from...
b) a police officer asking "Any idea who gave these to him?" Reply: "Nope."
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So not even valid evidence....irrelevant in fact
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So not even valid evidence....irrelevant in fact
Evidence of what?
- That they were gathering information available to the public that might help them find their missing child? That's no different from trying to gather information or advice if someone in the family is ill, for example.
- That they were given highly confidential material (for government-eyes only) to keep one step ahead of the PJ? When all of these documents are free handouts?
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Evidence of what?
- That they were gathering information available to the public that might help them find their missing child? That's no different from trying to gather information or advice if someone in the family is ill, for example.
- That they were given highly confidential material (for government-eyes only) to keep one step ahead of the PJ? When all of these documents are free handouts?
Sorry...What I meant was , Since it was not confidential material, they were doing no wrong in having it in their possession ........So no evidence there of using classified material. So why was it even mentioned by PJ or anyone else ?
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Sorry...What I meant was , Since it was not confidential material, they were doing no wrong in having it in their possession ........So no evidence there of using classified material. So why was it even mentioned by PJ or anyone else ?
I have no problem that the publications were filmed during the inspection.
Why Amaral chose to insinuate that the McCanns shouldn't have had access to them is a question that only he (and his team) can answer.
Grasping at straws comes to mind.
ETA: Correction.
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I have no problem that the publications were filmed during the inspection.
Why Amaral chose to insinuate that the McCanns shouldn't have had access to them is a question that only he (and his team) can answer.
Grasping at straws comes to mind.
ETA: Correction.
Carana, you have absolutely no way to know in which circumstances Mr Amaral wondered what use Mr McCann could make of documents conceived for PO, so what's your point ?
Have you any doubt about who was the real leader of the investigation ?
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Carana, you have absolutely no way to know in which circumstances Mr Amaral wondered what use Mr McCann could make of documents conceived for PO, so what's your point ?
Have you any doubt about who was the real leader of the investigation ?
These publications weren't conceived solely for PO (by which I suppose that you mean police officers). They are available for you and I to read... there's nothing confidential about them. I'd read them years ago.
Interesting question... who was the real leader of the investigation, in your opinion?
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Please note, this is a new thread.
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Carana, you have absolutely no way to know in which circumstances Mr Amaral wondered what use Mr McCann could make of documents conceived for PO, so what's your point ?
Have you any doubt about who was the real leader of the investigation ?
For me it kind of confirms that the man has to be in control of everything. This control for me is why we never found the child, or moved forward as there was far toooo much interference....What normal parents would want to have all these pamphlets anyway. They would serve no use, just make you feel more depressed after reading them.
MOST normal parents would just let the police do their job.
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For me it kind of confirms that the man has to be in control of everything. This control for me is why we never found the child, or moved forward as there was far toooo much interference....What normal parents would want to have all these pamphlets anyway. They would serve no use, just make you feel more depressed after reading them.
MOST normal parents would just let the police do their job.
Agreed.
In any contest if you want to beat someone, it helps to understand how they work.
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For me it kind of confirms that the man has to be in control of everything. This control for me is why we never found the child, or moved forward as there was far toooo much interference....What normal parents would want to have all these pamphlets anyway. They would serve no use, just make you feel more depressed after reading them.
MOST normal parents would just let the police do their job.
You forget that he'd been to visit NCMEC and CEOP. He was probably handed them then.
I can't find the video at the moment to verify which were on the bedside table, but I'll go with Amaral's list of three. They wouldn't be every parents' bedtime reading, but they had a child missing.
To change context, everyone I know who finds themselves with an unusual medical complaint that doesn't seem to respond to treatment will be glued to google to find out as much as they can for themselves.
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Carana, you have absolutely no way to know in which circumstances Mr Amaral wondered what use Mr McCann could make of documents conceived for PO, so what's your point ?
Have you any doubt about who was the real leader of the investigation ?
I have no idea why he wondered about lots of things. Including why he found it suspicious that a sofa was pushed against curtains when everybody and his brother (including the GNR) would have checked that she couldn't have been behind it.
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I have no idea why he wondered about lots of things. Including why he found it suspicious that a sofa was pushed against curtains when everybody and his brother (including the GNR) would have checked that she couldn't have been behind it.
It's part of a police officer's job to be suspicious, in particular when the layout of a flat indicates a space between a sofa and a wall.
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It's part of a police officer's job to be suspicious, in particular when the layout of a flat indicates a space between a sofa and a wall.
Based on a photo taken late into the night by the police themselves after everyone else had gone?
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Look at the length of the curtains.
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Look at the length of the curtains.
And?
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And?
What is your doubt ?
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What is your doubt ?
My doubt is what you're referring to...
I don't see anything odd about a sofa backed against curtains when people were double-checking that she really wasn't there.
(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_19.jpg)
Anyway, this is going off topic.
Back on topic. My point is why did Amaral insinuate that the booklets were restricted to government/law enforcement only when a 5-minute google would have revealed that they weren't?
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My doubt is what you're referring to...
I don't see anything odd about a sofa backed against curtains when people were double-checking that she really wasn't there.
Which people ?
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Which people ?
The GNR amongst others.
Perhaps we could agree to get back on topic?
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It's part of a police officer's job to be suspicious, in particular when the layout of a flat indicates a space between a sofa and a wall.
To stay on topic... yes, I agree that a police officer should be suspicious of anything that appears to be out of the ordinary. But, yet again, a 5-minute google would have shown that there was nothing restricted about those pamphlets and in the context of parents of a missing child, whose father had visited NCMEC and CEOP, there was nothing inexplicable about them.
So why insinuate that there was?
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To stay on topic... yes, I agree that a police officer should be suspicious of anything that appears to be out of the ordinary. But, yet again, a 5-minute google would have shown that there was nothing restricted about those pamphlets and in the context of parents of a missing child, whose father had visited NCMEC and CEOP, there was nothing inexplicable about them.
So why insinuate that there was?
Is it usual, do you think, for parents to visit CEOP, rather than CEOP officers visit them ?
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So why insinuate that there was?
Do you have an idea of why ?
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Do you have an idea of why ?
It makes for interesting reading about potential government protection (one of his themes) unless you actually bother to check.
Do you have an alternative idea?
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It makes for interesting reading about potential government protection (one of his themes) unless you actually bother to check.
Do you have an alternative idea?
I think you misunderstood my question.
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I think you misunderstood my question.
Possibly. Could you please clarify what your question actually concerned?
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Possibly. Could you please clarify what your question actually concerned?
All I know is that I replied to your
So why insinuate that there was?
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All I know is that I replied to your
So why insinuate that there was?
Open question. Do you have an idea?
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Open question. Do you have an idea?
No !
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No !
A rational explanation, perhaps?
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A rational explanation, perhaps?
I never "do" in the irrational, Carana !
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I never "do" in the irrational, Carana !
Glad to know that. I didn't ask for an irrational one, just a rational one.
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From his book:
With amazement the police officers discover a series of books and manuals exclusively intended for police services and government agencies.
- Missing and Abducted Children: A Law-Enforcement Guide to Case Investigation and Program Management, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children;
- Training Courses, (CEOP Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre);
- Making Every Child Matter…Everywhere, CEOP (Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre).
Mark Harrison himself wonders how Gerald McCann could have obtained these books.
Let's try again. Gerry had been to visit NCMEC and CEOP.
So what was so "amazing" that, as a dad of a missing child, he'd been handed pamphlets that were available to the general public, and not, as Amaral said, "exclusively intended for police services and government agencies"?
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From his book:
With amazement the police officers discover a series of books and manuals exclusively intended for police services and government agencies.
- Missing and Abducted Children: A Law-Enforcement Guide to Case Investigation and Program Management, National Center for Missing & Exploited Children;
- Training Courses, (CEOP Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre);
- Making Every Child Matter…Everywhere, CEOP (Serious Organised Crime Agency - Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre).
Mark Harrison himself wonders how Gerald McCann could have obtained these books.
Let's try again. Gerry had been to visit NCMEC and CEOP.
So what was so "amazing" that, as a dad of a missing child, he'd been handed pamphlets that were available to the general public, and not, as Amaral said, "exclusively intended for police services and government agencies"?
Is it amazing ? Perhaps not : professors have the reputation to be often distracted.
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It appears to suggest an unhealthy obsession with the subject of child abduction/trafficking. Why were the McCanns so interested in it? There is no evidence that their daughter was abducted by a stranger who was involved in child trafficking. Why were they so insistent that this is what had happened?
Oh, I know: 'people with dirty minds have dirty thoughts.'
As I think Amaral (or someone else involved in the case said) it is not the sort of reading you would expect people to take on a sunshine family holiday.
What's wrong with Jilly Cooper?
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It appears to suggest an unhealthy obsession with the subject of child abduction/trafficking. Why were the McCanns so interested in it? There is no evidence that their daughter was abducted by a stranger who was involved in child trafficking. Why were they so insistent that this is what had happened?
Oh, I know: 'people with dirty minds have dirty thoughts.'
As I think Amaral (or someone else involved in the case said) it is not the sort of reading you would expect people to take on a sunshine family holiday.
What's wrong with Jilly Cooper?
They didnt take them on hoiday j rob they acquired them some time after
But GM was overheard on the phone just an hour or less after saying he believed paedophiles had taken her
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Who actually owned this apartment where these pamphlets were found? I do believe it was someone called McCann although unrelated, we are told by Clarence Mitchell. Also, I do believe the McCanns had been on holiday here the previous year. Therefore they would know( the apartment?) and certainly the resort quite well. And they could quite likely have a local network out there. There are a gazillion Brits in the Algarve.
If you believe that the McCanns and/or their friends/acquaintances had something to do with or some knowledge prior knowledge of Madeleine's disappearance, then you can see that they are quite familiar with the resort. And maybe also the apartment.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
For those interested in statistics:
"The chance of the McCanns renting a holiday home from someone of the same name is 7,500-to-one."
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Who actually owned this apartment where these pamphlets were found? I do believe it was someone called McCann although unrelated, we are told by Clarence Mitchell. Also, I do believe the McCanns had been on holiday here the previous year. Therefore they would know( the apartment?) and certainly the resort quite well. And they could quite likely have a local network out there. There are a gazillion Brits in the Algarve.
If you believe that the McCanns and/or their friends/acquaintances had something to do with or some knowledge prior knowledge of Madeleine's disappearance, then you can see that they are quite familiar with the resort. And maybe also the apartment.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
For those interested in statistics:
"The chance of the McCanns renting a holiday home from someone of the same name is 7,500-to-one."
The apartment they rented on holiday, 5a, indeed owned by another Mccann...unrelated by all accounts
The villa they rented weeks after where the pamphlets were found/filmed rather as part of the dog search videos, in august, is different
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Who actually owned this apartment where these pamphlets were found? I do believe it was someone called McCann although unrelated, we are told by Clarence Mitchell. Also, I do believe the McCanns had been on holiday here the previous year. Therefore they would know( the apartment?) and certainly the resort quite well. And they could quite likely have a local network out there. There are a gazillion Brits in the Algarve.
If you believe that the McCanns and/or their friends/acquaintances had something to do with or some knowledge prior knowledge of Madeleine's disappearance, then you can see that they are quite familiar with the resort. And maybe also the apartment.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
For those interested in statistics:
"The chance of the McCanns renting a holiday home from someone of the same name is 7,500-to-one."
more stupid twaddle...the mccanns had never been to pdl before