Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: j.rob on January 27, 2014, 08:11:12 PM
Title: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 27, 2014, 08:11:12 PM
Another inexplicable aspect of the McCann version of events is this. Jane Tanner claims she saw a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. At the time she did not consider this to be suspicious because Gerry had just checked on Madeleine and everything seemed to be fine.
Okay - so far so good. That is credible.
At 10pm Kate enters the apartment and finds Madeleine missing. She runs out of the apartment to raise the alarm.
Okay - odd, but let's believe everything up to this point.
This is when it gets curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.
According to Kate in her book, the Mark Warner missing child alert is not activated until 10.30pm That strikes me as a long time, given that Kate claims to 'know' that a stranger has abducted her child. Why wait half an hour to alert hotel reception. That's ages.
Odder still, is Jane Tanners behaviour. You would reasonably expect, given what she had seen at 9.15pm, that once Kate raised the alarm and claimed that a stranger had stolen Madeleine from her bed, Jane Tanner would immediately put two and two together and call the police. ...... factually incorrect thus removed .......
But what DID Jane Tanner do? Helpfully, as always, Kate explains on page 76 of her book: 'When I'd discovered that Madeleine was missing she (Jane) had beeen in her apartment three doors along. Hearing the commotion, she had come out and discovered what was going on. '
Okay. So now what?!
This is the moment of truth, right? Still within the critical hour or so after a child has gone missing. Those first few hours are vital, we are told.
Well: 'Taking Fiona to one side, she told her how, after leaving the restaurant.....and having passed Gerry....she had seen this man......Obviously at the time she had thought little of it: as far as any of us knew, Madeleine was asleep in her bed, and, having just seen Gerry, Jane was well aware that he had been in our apartment only a few minutes before........As soon as she heard about Madeleine's disappearance, everything fell into place and she felt sick.'
Okay - so Jane Tanner has seen the man who she thinks abducted Madeleine.
According to Kate in her book: 'She (Jane) immediately reported this sighting to the police.'
But according to the PJ files, the first call logged at GNR in Lagos was at 22.50. The GNR then arrived between 12 and 15 minutes later.
Why did it take 50 minutes for Jane Tanner to alert the police, given that 'she felt sick' over what she had seen. In other words, the inference being that she had seen Madeleine being abducted.
According to Kate's book the alarm was raised at 10pm but if you look at the PJ files witnesses give different times for when they heard the alarm being raised - as early as 9.20pm - the Chef, 21.30 - 21.40 - the Property Manager. At 21.45 a waiter reports seeing no-one at the table as they had all left in a panic. Many other witnesses report the alarm being raised at between 9.30pm and 9.40pm.
So what is going on here? Are all those witnesses wrong about the time that the alarm was raised? Or has Kate chosen to adjust the timings, to allow a bit of extra time before the police were called and to allow for the extra '10pm 'check'.
In any event, even if you ignore this glaring discrepancy (which is glaring - just look at the PJ files, there are loads of witnesses reporting what they saw and heard that evening) it is recorded that the first call logged at GMR Lagos is 22.50pm.
If we are to believe the witnesses who said they heard a commotion and news of a missing child at times between 9.20pm and 9.40pm, that places an even longer gap between the alarm being raised and a call to the police station being logged. A gap of well over an hour.
But whatever the precise time that the alarm was raised, there is no record of a call to the police from the McCanns or their friends at 10pm, Which is what you would expect given the apparent importance of Jane Tanner's sighting.
Instead, on page 73 of Kate's book we learn that: 'Just after 10.10pm, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's 24-hour reception to get staff to call the police.' She then states on the next page that: 'AT 10.35 the police had still not arrived.'
That's because the McCanns or their friends didn't call them. Why didn't Fiona immediately alert the police herself? What about Mrs Fenn? she offered to lend Gerry her phone to call police but he said it had already been done. What nonchalance!!He hadn't even bothered to call police himself and he couldn't even be bothered to call on a neighbour's phone.
What does that tell you?
From this point onwards everything is everyone else's fault - especially the police - they are too late, too inefficient, too Portuguese and, worst of all, they don't take the McCann's story seriously.
So we can deduce from this that the Portuguese police were probably quite bright - a lot brighter than some people.
And the McCanns and their friends are seemingly believing that Madeleine's mystery abductor has spirited her far away from the resort: 'Aware that we were only an hour and a quarter's drive from southern Spain, and beyond that lay the borderless continent of Europe - not to mention the short hop across the Strait of Gibraltar to north Africa - David was saying: 'We need roadblocks set up. The borders to Spain, Morocco and Algiers need to be alerted.'
Notice how soon the McCanns and their friends are moving Madeleine away from the Ocean Club and towards some unknown destination which could be - practically anywhere in the world.
And, of course, the world is a big place and finding a child in the world is a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. It could take years and years. Year's of fund money. Years of selling newspapers. Years of 'mystery sightings'. Not to mention a shed-load of tax-payers money.
Funny old world, eh?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 27, 2014, 08:22:44 PM
But whatever the precise time that the alarm was raised, there is no record of a call to the police from the McCanns or their friends at 10pm, Which is what you would expect given the apparent importance of Jane Tanner's sighting.
The police would have been called straight away at 10pm if you knew an abduction had taken place as they claim but Smithman hasn't finished his job yet. Can't call them until he's safely back.
Instead, on page 73 of Kate's book we learn that: 'Just after 10.10pm, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's 24-hour reception to get staff to call the police.' She then states on the next page that: 'AT 10.35 the police had still not arrived.'
According to Matt is was Fiona who asked him not Gerry. Matt always puts a spanner in the works 8)-)))
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 27, 2014, 09:23:41 PM
In the case of a witnessed abduction or a high probability of abduction, the European abduction alert is deployed within 1 hour, supposing the authorities are alerted right away through the European alert number 112 or through the specific number 116000, because the authorities have to know the situation in order to write down the message that will appear on TVs, highways and public spaces.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 28, 2014, 12:56:47 AM
Yes indeed....and it seems that Gerry McCann, despite apparently ardently believing that his daughter had been abducted by an unknown paedophile ....simply cannot bring himself to call the police.
We know he has a mobile phone because he used it quite a bit before, during and after his daughter's alleged abduction. But it seems that, however keen he was to use his phone, he did not want to use it in connection with the (paedophile) abduction of his daughter.
Poor old Matt seems to be the stooge here. It is almost as though mobile phones have not been invented, when it comes to Madeleine.
In Kate's book, Madeleine: 'Just after 10.10pm, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's 24-hour reception to get staff to call the police.'
Errr.....Gerry was mighty busy on his phone in the days surrounding the disappearance of his daughter so it seems more than extraordinary that he would not use the device that was, according to his wife attached to his ear AFTER her disappearance, AT THE TIME of her disappearance. Would that not be a vital time to use your mobile? I think it would be.
But no - it appears that Gerry doesn't think it appropriate to use his mobile to call the police when he apparently believes that his daughter has been abducted by a paedophile, instead he prefers to involve a friend in his sordid drama and get him to 'run to the reception'....
What was Gerry thinking - he might almost have used a carrier pigeon....why did he have to involve Matt, when he could perfectly well have used his mobile phone - or, in fact, how about running to reception himself, rather than getting everyone else to do his donkey work?
And Matt gets used once again, at 10.35pm (according to Kate's book) when the police have still not arrived (nor surprising really since the McCanns have not called them) .....Gerry STILL has a problem with his mobile. Once again, he adopts the carrier pigeon approach - stooge Matt is sent running up to reception to 'find out what is happening'. See - Gerry still has to get other people to carry out the donkey work so he can distance himself from what is really happening.
After this, Kate and Gerry seem to be screaming at everyone that 'nothing is happening' or 'where are the police' or shouting at people that are potentially helpful, but simply do not believe the McCircus.
Hmmm....
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on January 28, 2014, 01:08:26 AM
Another inexplicable aspect of the McCann version of events is this. Jane Tanner claims she saw a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. At the time she did not consider this to be suspicious because Gerry had just checked on Madeleine and everything seemed to be fine.
As far as we are aware j.Rob, at the relevant sighting time, Jane Tanner never gave the man and child a thought, as to be doing anything wrong. As far as we are aware Gerry didn't even enter into her head relative to the man and the child, cos that man could have come from any of the flats, indeed from anywhere in a westerly direction. Can we be accurate please.
At 10pm Kate enters the apartment and finds Madeleine missing. She runs out of the apartment to raise the alarm.
Okay - odd, but let's believe everything up to this point.
What a vivid imagination you have to find it odd that she runs 70 metres (50 metres crow flies) to alert her husband and friends and get immediate support. An athletic woman like kate would have done that distance in a trice
This is when it gets curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.
According to Kate in her book, the Mark Warner missing child alert is not activated until 10.30pm That strikes me as a long time, given that Kate claims to 'know' that a stranger has abducted her child. Why wait half an hour to alert hotel reception. That's ages.
Get your facts right J.Rob. Matt ran to OC main reception as soon as they realised that Madeleine was not wandering around in the immediate vicinity. IIRC he asked for the Police to be called by 10.15pm, but reception did not react properly. Seems an official OC process had to be gone thru. before calling Police.
But what DID Jane Tanner do? Helpfully, as always, Kate explains on page 76 of her book: 'When I'd discovered that Madeleine was missing she (Jane) had been in her apartment three doors along. Hearing the commotion, she had come out and discovered what was going on. '
Okay. So now what?!
This is the moment of truth, right? Still within the critical hour or so after a child has gone missing. Those first few hours are vital, we are told.
Well: 'Taking Fiona to one side, she told her how, after leaving the restaurant.....and having passed Gerry....she had seen this man......Obviously at the time she had thought little of it: as far as any of us knew, Madeleine was asleep in her bed, and, having just seen Gerry, Jane was well aware that he had been in our apartment only a few minutes before........As soon as she heard about Madeleine's disappearance, everything fell into place and she felt sick.'
Okay - so Jane Tanner has seen the man who she thinks abducted Madeleine.
According to Kate in her book: 'She (Jane) immediately reported this sighting to the police.'
When the Police, who were only the GNR, finally arrived. Remember Madeleine was reported missing at 10.15 ish and the police were expected any second. The Mccann Family were really let down by the late arrival of the GNR, who failed to arrive for approximately 50 minutes. The first golden hour gone !
Again total ignorance of the truth. Jane Tanner is NOT a doctor.
But according to the PJ files, the first call logged at GNR in Lagos was at 22.50. The GNR then arrived between 12 and 15 minutes later.
Why did it take 50 minutes for Jane Tanner to alert the police, given that 'she felt sick' over what she had seen. In other words, the inference being that she had seen Madeleine being abducted.
AS said before, reception was alerted almost immediately. As far as the Tapas Group were concerned the Police would be arriving very soon. Jane expecting the imminent arrival of the police, waited .. and waited .. and waited .. until the GNR finally arrived after 11 oclock.
According to Kate's book the alarm was raised at 10pm but if you look at the PJ files witnesses give different times for when they heard the alarm being raised - as early as 9.20pm - the Chef, 21.30 - 21.40 - the Property Manager. At 21.45 a waiter reports seeing no-one at the table as they had all left in a panic. Many other witnesses report the alarm being raised at between 9.30pm and 9.40pm.
Who are all these so called witnesses reporting the alarm being raised before 10pm? Are you sure ... cos I have read the files and didn't find them. Please will you list them or remove your assertion
So what is going on here? Are all those witnesses wrong about the time that the alarm was raised? Or has Kate chosen to adjust the timings, to allow a bit of extra time before the police were called and to allow for the extra '10pm 'check'.
In any event, even if you ignore this glaring discrepancy (which is glaring - just look at the PJ files, there are loads of witnesses reporting what they saw and heard that evening) it is recorded that the first call logged at GMR Lagos is 22.50pm. If we are to believe the witnesses who said they heard a commotion and news of a missing child at times between 9.20pm and 9.40pm, that places an even longer gap between the alarm being raised and a call to the police station being logged. A gap of well over an hour.
Please will you list these supposed witnesses to the alarm being raised and the commotion before 10pm . Or kindly remove your assertion of a gap of over an hour, before it becomes yet another forum myth.
Instead, on page 73 of Kate's book we learn that: 'Just after 10.10pm, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's 24-hour reception to get staff to call the police.' She then states on the next page that: 'AT 10.35 the police had still not arrived.'
That's because the McCanns or their friends didn't call them. Why didn't Fiona immediately alert the police herself? What about Mrs Fenn? she offered to lend Gerry her phone to call police but he said it had already been done. What nonchalance!!He hadn't even bothered to call police himself and he couldn't even be bothered to call on a neighbour's phone.
i) J.rob are you Portuguese? ii) if you are British, do you speak Portuguese? iii) Before this case did you know the number to phone the police in Portugal? Cos I am very well travelled including many trips to PT and I didn't know iv) Have you ever stayed in a moderately smart place in a foreign Country that has reception staff on who are bi-lingual? I have ... and the first port of call in such circumstances is the Reception ... for an English /PT bi-lingual speaker.
j.Rob, if this is the best that you can do. Give it up [/color]
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on January 28, 2014, 01:12:25 AM
Yes indeed....and it seems that Gerry McCann, despite apparently ardently believing that his daughter had been abducted by an unknown paedophile ....simply cannot bring himself to call the police.
We know he has a mobile phone because he used it quite a bit before, during and after his daughter's alleged abduction. But it seems that, however keen he was to use his phone, he did not want to use it in connection with the (paedophile) abduction of his daughter.
Poor old Matt seems to be the stooge here. It is almost as though mobile phones have not been invented, when it comes to Madeleine.
In Kate's book, Madeleine: 'Just after 10.10pm, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's 24-hour reception to get staff to call the police.'
Errr.....Gerry was mighty busy on his phone in the days surrounding the disappearance of his daughter so it seems more than extraordinary that he would not use the device that was, according to his wife attached to his ear AFTER her disappearance, AT THE TIME of her disappearance. Would that not be a vital time to use your mobile? I think it would be.
But no - it appears that Gerry doesn't think it appropriate to use his mobile to call the police when he apparently believes that his daughter has been abducted by a paedophile, instead he prefers to involve a friend in his sordid drama and get him to 'run to the reception'....
What was Gerry thinking - he might almost have used a carrier pigeon....why did he have to involve Matt, when he could perfectly well have used his mobile phone - or, in fact, how about running to reception himself, rather than getting everyone else to do his donkey work?
And Matt gets used once again, at 10.35pm (according to Kate's book) when the police have still not arrived (nor surprising really since the McCanns have not called them) .....Gerry STILL has a problem with his mobile. Once again, he adopts the carrier pigeon approach - stooge Matt is sent running up to reception to 'find out what is happening'. See - Gerry still has to get other people to carry out the donkey work so he can distance himself from what is really happening.
After this, Kate and Gerry seem to be screaming at everyone that 'nothing is happening' or 'where are the police' or shouting at people that are potentially helpful, but simply do not believe the McCircus.
Hmmm....
What you seem to be saying is because no-one behaved how YOU would have behaved there is something sinister about it.
You can have no idea how you would react in the same panic-stricken circumstances - you only think you do. IMO
And once again - a typical example of hindsight being a wonderful thing. We can all be wise after the event.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 01:21:01 AM
Nine persons, nine cell phones, send one of them walking 300x2m to not obtain that the police is called ! ?{)(**
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on January 28, 2014, 01:27:01 AM
Yes indeed....and it seems that Gerry McCann, despite apparently ardently believing that his daughter had been abducted by an unknown paedophile ....simply cannot bring himself to call the police.
We know he has a mobile phone because he used it quite a bit before, during and after his daughter's alleged abduction. But it seems that, however keen he was to use his phone, he did not want to use it in connection with the (paedophile) abduction of his daughter.
Poor old Matt seems to be the stooge here. It is almost as though mobile phones have not been invented, when it comes to Madeleine.
In Kate's book, Madeleine: 'Just after 10.10pm, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's 24-hour reception to get staff to call the police.'
Errr.....Gerry was mighty busy on his phone in the days surrounding the disappearance of his daughter so it seems more than extraordinary that he would not use the device that was, according to his wife attached to his ear AFTER her disappearance, AT THE TIME of her disappearance. Would that not be a vital time to use your mobile? I think it would be.
But no - it appears that Gerry doesn't think it appropriate to use his mobile to call the police when he apparently believes that his daughter has been abducted by a paedophile, instead he prefers to involve a friend in his sordid drama and get him to 'run to the reception'....
What was Gerry thinking - he might almost have used a carrier pigeon....why did he have to involve Matt, when he could perfectly well have used his mobile phone - or, in fact, how about running to reception himself, rather than getting everyone else to do his donkey work?
And Matt gets used once again, at 10.35pm (according to Kate's book) when the police have still not arrived (nor surprising really since the McCanns have not called them) .....Gerry STILL has a problem with his mobile. Once again, he adopts the carrier pigeon approach - stooge Matt is sent running up to reception to 'find out what is happening'. See - Gerry still has to get other people to carry out the donkey work so he can distance himself from what is really happening.
After this, Kate and Gerry seem to be screaming at everyone that 'nothing is happening' or 'where are the police' or shouting at people that are potentially helpful, but simply do not believe the McCircus.
Hmmm....
i) J.rob are you Portuguese? ii) if you are British, do you speak Portuguese? Would you expect the PT police to be able to understand and converse in English? iii) Before this case did you know the number to phone the police in Portugal? Cos I am very well travelled including many trips to PT and I didn't know iv) Have you ever stayed in a moderately smart place in a foreign Country that has reception staff on who are bi-lingual? I have ... and the first port of call in such circumstances is the Reception ... for an English /PT bi-lingual speaker.
Now, consider, is Gerry a Portuguese speaker? Did he do the right thing sending Matt to Reception? Yes, of course he did. Less than 280 metres away and matt like the others was fit. He ran.
Think about it j.rob
And I bet any parents would be getting hysterical at the non appearance of Police after such a huge wait ... on such a vital thing as their young child abducted.
Are you a parent j.rob? Where is your empathy and understanding.?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: colombosstogey on January 28, 2014, 06:54:21 AM
i) J.rob are you Portuguese? ii) if you are British, do you speak Portuguese? Would you expect the PT police to be able to understand and converse in English? iii) Before this case did you know the number to phone the police in Portugal? Cos I am very well travelled including many trips to PT and I didn't know iv) Have you ever stayed in a moderately smart place in a foreign Country that has reception staff on who are bi-lingual? I have ... and the first port of call in such circumstances is the Reception ... for an English /PT bi-lingual speaker.
Now, consider, is Gerry a Portuguese speaker? Did he do the right thing sending Matt to Reception? Yes, of course he did. Less than 280 metres away and matt like the others was fit. He ran.
Think about it j.rob
And I bet any parents would be getting hysterical at the non appearance of Police after such a huge wait ... on such a vital thing as their young child abducted.
Are you a parent j.rob? Where is your empathy and understanding.?
Oh come on really. The father can take a heart out of someones chest and repair it, yet he doesnt know that in any European country you just dial 112 for emergency services. Its not like they havent been on holiday before.
Didnt the late Mrs Fenn offer to ring the police?
ITS our responsibility, to make sure we know how to deal with emergencys whilst on holiday, BEFORE we leave.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on January 28, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
Oh come on really. The father can take a heart out of someones chest and repair it, yet he doesnt know that in any European country you just dial 112 for emergency services. Its not like they havent been on holiday before.
Didnt the late Mrs Fenn offer to ring the police?
ITS our responsibility, to make sure we know how to deal with emergencys whilst on holiday, BEFORE we leave.
I know we have looked at this question previously under the guise of another question but it is intriguing. A 3-year-old child disappears, her bedroom window and outside shutter supposedly wide open and all her parents and group effectively do is run around like headless chickens for an hour until the GNR arrive.
Remember, this was 10 o-clock at night, not morning or afternoon. From all accounts Kate realised Madeleine had been abducted almost immediately so why delay?
Sadie has always suggested the language barrier and ignorance of the international emergency number 112. I don't buy it, here we had a group of 8 professionals who were widely travelled and we are expected to believe they don't know what to do in an emergency?
Even assuming for a moment that they didn't know, there were several members of staff a few yards away who knew what to do, some of whom could speak both Portuguese and English. The police could have been informed as early as a few minutes after ten and been there almost immediately. Even Mrs Fenn upstairs offered to phone the police but her kind offer was declined.
If it had been my child I would have phoned 112 or had a local do it for me immediately, better safe than sorry as they say!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 28, 2014, 08:42:56 AM
I know we have looked at this question previously under the guise of another question but it is intriguing. A 3-year-old child disappears, her bedroom window and outside shutter supposedly wide open and all her parents and group effectively do is run around like headless chickens for an hour until the GNR arrive.
Remember, this was 10 o-clock at night, not morning or afternoon. From all accounts Kate realised Madeleine had been abducted almost immediately so why delay?
Sadie has always suggested the language barrier and ignorance of the international emergency number 112. I don't buy it, here we had a group of 8 professionals who were widely travelled and we are expected to believe they don't know what to do in an emergency?
Even assuming for a moment that they didn't know, there were several members of staff a few yards away who knew what to do, some of whom could speak both Portuguese and English. The police could have been informed as early as a few minutes after ten and been there almost immediately. Even Mrs Fenn upstairs offered to phone the police but her kind offer was declined.
If it had been my child I would have phoned 112 or had a local do it for me immediately, better safe than sorry as they say!
"If it had been my child I would have phoned 112 or had a local do it for me immediately"
I would do the same, unless my child hadn't actually been abducted & I needed that extra time to conceal his/her dead body.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2014, 08:59:20 AM
I know we have looked at this question previously under the guise of another question but it is intriguing. A 3-year-old child disappears, her bedroom window and outside shutter supposedly wide open and all her parents and group effectively do is run around like headless chickens for an hour until the GNR arrive.
Remember, this was 10 o-clock at night, not morning or afternoon. From all accounts Kate realised Madeleine had been abducted almost immediately so why delay?
Sadie has always suggested the language barrier and ignorance of the international emergency number 112. I don't buy it, here we had a group of 8 professionals who were widely travelled and we are expected to believe they don't know what to do in an emergency?
Even assuming for a moment that they didn't know, there were several members of staff a few yards away who knew what to do, some of whom could speak both Portuguese and English. The police could have been informed as early as a few minutes after ten and been there almost immediately. Even Mrs Fenn upstairs offered to phone the police but her kind offer was declined.
If it had been my child I would have phoned 112 or had a local do it for me immediately, better safe than sorry as they say!
For some reason the tapas group did not feel they could trust the restaurant staff and that is something which has always bothered me. I have read through all the staff statements and in virtually every case they were in a state of confusion as to what was really going on. It was as if they were being treated as aliens or even worse, suspects?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2014, 09:01:35 AM
In the Mikaeel Kular case for example, his mother claimed he was in bed at 9pm which obviously wasn't true, So who put Maddie to bed, Kate, Gerry, both or possibly neither.
KM (statement to police, 6.9.07): 'They also kissed Madeleine, who was already lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks, because it was a bit cold... She remained lying down on her left side, with the soft toy and a pink blanket, which she thinks was covering her.'
GM (from the documentary, Madeleine Was Here):"So, I actually came in and Madeleine was just at the top of the bed here, where I'd left her lying and the covers were folded down and she had her cuddle cat and blanket, were just by her head."
KM (6.9.07): 'After Gerry arrived the children went to brush their teeth and she then read them another story, this time all four of them sitting on Madeleine's bed. She thinks that Gerry entered the room, but does not recall him sitting on the bed.… she thinks that Gerry was in the room, and each one of them, the deponent and Gerry, placed a twin in its cot at the same time, between Madeleine's bed and the bed under the window. They also kissed Madeleine, who was already lying down.'
GM (statement to police, 10.5.07): 'At around 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding Kate and the children playing on the sofa. About 10 to 15 minutes later, they took the children to the bedroom and they all sat on Madeleine's bed to read a story.'
KM (6.9.07): 'They talked while they drank, until they left for the Tapas restaurant at around 8.30-8.35 p.m. Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn't know who; however Gerry says it was him. She only knows the children were quiet. She doesn't know if they were in their same positions. She says she is sure that they were asleep, because Gerry told her so and all was quiet.'
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on January 28, 2014, 09:50:08 AM
Ahhh so their actions re phoning the police are yet ANOTHER part of this cunning plan which is now so massive and complicated it would have required more planning than Montgomery's Desert Campaign. FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was abducted - do they waste time running around in the hopes of findings some Portuguese person who can speak English and who knows the Emergency number, or do they go straight to Reception where they already KNOW an English speaking person will be immediately available? They did what any normal person in those particular circumstances would do IMO.
If the McCanns had wanted to conceal their child's dead body - they would NOT have done it this way. They would have waited until the dead of the night when they could take their time and did NOT have to rely on or involve anyone else - let alone 7 other people who all had to learn their lines and remember all the details of not only the parts - they had agreed to play, but also what everyone else had agreed to do - as part of this alleged massive cover up plan.
Too daft for words IMO when there were much easier and safer alternatives open to them. They were NOT simpletons.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on January 28, 2014, 10:04:38 AM
Oh come on really. The father can take a heart out of someones chest and repair it, yet he doesnt know that in any European country you just dial 112 for emergency services. Its not like they havent been on holiday before.
Didnt the late Mrs Fenn offer to ring the police?
ITS our responsibility, to make sure we know how to deal with emergencys whilst on holiday, BEFORE we leave.
You are wrong Colom.
My hubby is chartered and extraordiarily clever. I am a qualified engineer and qualified teacher at secondary level... so we are not dull.
We are extensively travelled. Yet neither of us knew that 112 was the emergency number.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 11:33:21 AM
FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was abducted - do they waste time running around in the hopes of findings some Portuguese person who can speak English and who knows the Emergency number, or do they go straight to Reception where they already KNOW an English speaking person will be immediately available? They did what any normal person in those particular circumstances would do IMO.
If the McCanns had wanted to conceal their child's dead body - they would NOT have done it this way. They would have waited until the dead of the night when they could take their time and did NOT have to rely on or involve anyone else - let alone 7 other people who all had to learn their lines and remember all the details of not only the parts - they had agreed to play, but also what everyone else had agreed to do - as part of this alleged massive cover up plan.
The English fluent person they knew, Joaquim, wasn't at the reception but close by at the Tapas bar. You don't seem to be aware of the state of a body after 10 hours.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2014, 11:58:53 AM
This is a subject which I find very revealing and one which I am surprised hasn't been explored more. Every seasoned traveller knows the European emergency number but that aside there is no excuse. Every police car has it emblazoned on it and every hotel and apartment group are obliged to have it displayed in their premises. Obviously Sadie has never been to a Portuguese hotel.
Sending Matt to seek help way down at Main Reception is puzzling but to send him twice was sheer idiocy. All that time wasted, you would think they were playing for time wouldn't you.
The first call received by police nearly an hour after Madeleine was found to be missing certainly defies belief.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on January 28, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
The English fluent person they knew, Joaquim, wasn't at the reception but close by at the Tapas bar. You don't seem to be aware of the state of a body after 10 hours.
So you think they would have said 'lets go and find Joaquim and explain to him what has happened and get him to ring the police''. What if he wasnt around at that time? Or would they automatically think that Reception was the place to go because they knew it was staffed with English speaking people?
Apols if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who said it would only take 3/4 mins for someone carrying a body to get from the complex to the place where Smithman was seen? So we must be talking far less time than that to run to Reception without being encumbered by the extra weight of a body.
Two doctors would know all about the changing states of dead bodies.
But what would it matter when apparently they knew a place to leave it where the biggest search ever conducted in the history of Portugal could not find it - not even the locals. And the state of the body was apparently not a problem when in the full glare of the worlds media - they removed it 3 weeks later to yet another unfindable place.
The whole concept that they would dispose of their childs body is nonsensical IMO- and even more so the idea that they chose the most complicated cover-up plan ever devised - when there was absolutely no need to - unless of course they were ALL complete idiots who didn't have a working braincell amongst them.
None of them remotely fits that description as far as I know.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 12:30:55 PM
So you think they would have said 'lets go and find Joaquim and explain to him what has happened and get him to ring the police''. What if he wasnt around at that time? Or would they automatically think that Reception was the place to go because they knew it was staffed with English speaking people?
Apols if I'm wrong but wasn't it you who said it would only take 3/4 mins for someone carrying a body to get from the complex to the place where Smithman was seen? So we must be talking far less time than that to run to Reception without being encumbered by the extra weight of a body.
Two doctors would know all about the changing states of dead bodies.
But what would it matter when apparently they knew a place to leave it where the biggest search ever conducted in the history of Portugal could not find it - not even the locals. And the state of the body was apparently not a problem when in the full glare of the worlds media - they removed it 3 weeks later to yet another unfindable place.
The whole concept that they would dispose of their childs body is nonsensical IMO- and even more so the idea that they chose the most complicated cover-up plan ever devised - when there was absolutely no need to - unless of course they were ALL complete idiots who didn't have a working braincell amongst them.
None of them remotely fits that description as far as I know.
No, Benice, I don't think that. Sticking to their theory, there was a huge emergency and doctors are trained to deal with that, as Mr McCann reminded. There was no lack of cell phones and the British emergency nb would have directed to the 112, had every one of them ignored that one. I never said the body was removed twice or thrice (absurd), but that imo it was removed for good in the hours that followed the disappearance. That's imo why it wasn't found.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on January 28, 2014, 12:39:58 PM
Here is one of the police cars which apparently Sadie never noticed in Portugal.
(http://i.imgur.com/8InRVxl.jpg?1)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 28, 2014, 01:44:57 PM
Ahhh so their actions re phoning the police are yet ANOTHER part of this cunning plan which is now so massive and complicated it would have required more planning than Montgomery's Desert Campaign. FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was abducted - do they waste time running around in the hopes of findings some Portuguese person who can speak English and who knows the Emergency number, or do they go straight to Reception where they already KNOW an English speaking person will be immediately available? They did what any normal person in those particular circumstances would do IMO.
If the McCanns had wanted to conceal their child's dead body - they would NOT have done it this way. They would have waited until the dead of the night when they could take their time and did NOT have to rely on or involve anyone else - let alone 7 other people who all had to learn their lines and remember all the details of not only the parts - they had agreed to play, but also what everyone else had agreed to do - as part of this alleged massive cover up plan.
Too daft for words IMO when there were much easier and safer alternatives open to them. They were NOT simpletons.
'FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was abducted'
Another one claiming abduction as fact, So to be fair ...
'FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was dead & Gerry stuck her corpse in a big dumpster type bin.'
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 02:28:29 PM
deleted, off topic.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on January 28, 2014, 03:25:45 PM
'FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was abducted'
Another one claiming abduction as fact, So to be fair ...
'FGS They were in a holiday complex, their child was dead & Gerry stuck her corpse in a big dumpster type bin.'
Well I can agree with your findings or I can agree with SY's findings. They are investigating a case of stranger abduction and have ruled out the parents and friends as suspects. They know the reasons why they have categorically ruled out those people - we do not.
They have all the available information/evidence - we do not.
They have the means and the ability to look deeply into aspects of the case if clarification is required. We do not.
They are 38 trained professionals working on this one case. We are not.
Unsurprisingly therefore, I will go with the experts rather than with those members of the general public who only know some of the facts - but who, for some inexplicable reason, think they know more about this case than the SY team.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 03:31:09 PM
They are investigating a case of stranger abduction and have ruled out the parents and friends as suspects. They know the reasons why they have categorically ruled out those people - we do not.
That's correct, but we know why.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 28, 2014, 03:48:17 PM
Well I can agree with your findings or I can agree with SY's findings. They are investigating a case of stranger abduction and have ruled out the parents and friends as suspects. They know the reasons why they have categorically ruled out those people - we do not.
They have all the available information/evidence - we do not.
They have the means and the ability to look deeply into aspects of the case if clarification is required. We do not.
They are 38 trained professionals working on this one case. We are not.
Unsurprisingly therefore, I will go with the experts rather than with those members of the general public who only know some of the facts - but who, for some inexplicable reason, think they know more about this case than the SY team.
No, you would just agree with the McCanns, whatever they say or do, SY investigation or not.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Cariad on January 28, 2014, 03:54:11 PM
Well I can agree with your findings or I can agree with SY's findings. They are investigating a case of stranger abduction and have ruled out the parents and friends as suspects. They know the reasons why they have categorically ruled out those people - we do not.
They have all the available information/evidence - we do not.
They have the means and the ability to look deeply into aspects of the case if clarification is required. We do not.
They are 38 trained professionals working on this one case. We are not.
Unsurprisingly therefore, I will go with the experts rather than with those members of the general public who only know some of the facts - but who, for some inexplicable reason, think they know more about this case than the SY team.
I don't think I know more than SY. In fact I'd put money on SY knowing a hell of a lot more than they're letting on.
What do you think of the Mccanns seemingly going against sy in the tannerman department? They're not going with the experts on that one are they?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Estuarine on January 28, 2014, 04:23:37 PM
I doubt they can afford to. So we have the usual weird syntax from them designed to make it look as though The Met are with them in their belief.
What? You mean them rewriting Redwoods "almost certainly" isnt Tannerman/abductor....to he "may" be an ocean club guest"? and "it is not possible to be certain"?
Therefore we shall continue to flog him as the probable possible abductor...so please call our 0845 number with details, which you have to pay for, not us.....
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 28, 2014, 04:59:05 PM
As far as we are aware j.Rob, at the relevant sighting time, Jane Tanner never gave the man and child a thought, as to be doing anything wrong. As far as we are aware Gerry didn't even enter into her head relative to the man and the child, cos that man could have come from any of the flats, indeed from anywhere in a westerly direction. Can we be accurate please.
What a vivid imagination you have to find it odd that she runs 70 metres (50 metres crow flies) to alert her husband and friends and get immediate support. An athletic woman like kate would have done that distance in a trice Get your facts right J.Rob. Matt ran to OC main reception as soon as they realised that Madeleine was not wandering around in the immediate vicinity. IIRC he asked for the Police to be called by 10.15pm, but reception did not react properly. Seems an official OC process had to be gone thru. before calling Police. When the Police, who were only the GNR, finally arrived. Remember Madeleine was reported missing at 10.15 ish and the police were expected any second. The Mccann Family were really let down by the late arrival of the GNR, who failed to arrive for approximately 50 minutes. The first golden hour gone !
Again total ignorance of the truth. Jane Tanner is NOT a doctor. AS said before, reception was alerted almost immediately. As far as the Tapas Group were concerned the Police would be arriving very soon. Jane expecting the imminent arrival of the police, waited .. and waited .. and waited .. until the GNR finally arrived after 11 oclock. Who are all these so called witnesses reporting the alarm being raised before 10pm? Are you sure ... cos I have read the files and didn't find them. Please will you list them or remove your assertion Please will you list these supposed witnesses to the alarm being raised and the commotion before 10pm . Or kindly remove your assertion of a gap of over an hour, before it becomes yet another forum myth. i) J.rob are you Portuguese? ii) if you are British, do you speak Portuguese? iii) Before this case did you know the number to phone the police in Portugal? Cos I am very well travelled including many trips to PT and I didn't know iv) Have you ever stayed in a moderately smart place in a foreign Country that has reception staff on who are bi-lingual? I have ... and the first port of call in such circumstances is the Reception ... for an English /PT bi-lingual speaker.
j.Rob, if this is the best that you can do. Give it up [/color]
It is odd to leave two children in an apartment when you think an abductor has just been in and stolen the third child. It is not logical.
There was nothing to stop either the McCanns or any of their friends immediately alerting the police on their cell phones at 10pm. They could easily have asked a staff member to speak to the police, if none of the police at the station understood english.
According to the PJ files, the first call logged at GNR was at at 10.50pm.
If you look at the PJ files you can read witness statements from staff etc at the resort who say they heard that a child was missing well before 10pm.
Why not phone hotel reception? And the police?
Couldn't remember which of the group were doctors - the point is a lot of them were and they would have known you need to react quickly in an emergency. Once Jane learnt that Madeleine was missing, and she thinks she saw the abductor, she should have called the police immediately.
So - according to you, everything is everyone else's fault but not the McCAnns? Hotel reception delays, the late arrival of the police when in fact the McCanns themselves had failed to notify the police by phone.
Madeleine was indeed let down - by her parents.
You can check out witnesses statements in the PJ files which are online.
In my opinion, neither Kate or Gerry (or indeed any of their friends) called the police because they wanted to distance themselves from the disappearance. They had decided that Madeleine's disappearance would be everyone else's fault but their own.
I've been abroad and called the police. Easy as pie - especially if you are in a restaurant etc where there are staff who speak the native language as well as english which there often are in holiday resorts.
The McCanns were not let down by the police, or by staff at the resort. They let themselves down by leaving their children unattended and then faking an abduction.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 05:06:00 PM
They had decided that Madeleine's disappearance would be everyone else's fault but their own.
It's at the core of the mystery, imo, supposing it is one, and not a made up one.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2014, 05:12:16 PM
I removed your post Sadie as we don't refer to members as liars on this forum... even in jest...
We have to take at face value your claim that neither you or your hubby ever knew that the European Emergency Number was 112. At least you are now safe in the knowledge that that is no longer the case.
Had the McCanns and the other tapas 7 phoned this number their daughter might be home in Rothley today.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on January 28, 2014, 05:19:21 PM
Here is one of the police cars which apparently Sadie never noticed in Portugal.
(http://i.imgur.com/8InRVxl.jpg?1)
John, You should know by now, that I am not a liar.
As you have removed my somewhat light hearted response, will you please remove the words implying that I am being untruthful. Leave the photo if you wish.
Thankyou.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 05:20:12 PM
Had the McCanns and the other tapas 7 phoned this number their daughter might be home in Rothley today.
I really don't think so.. If it were so, they had found a way to call (elliptic, not absurd). The group and the staff had no authority to call the police. The receptionist might have called if it had been asked by the missing child's father.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 28, 2014, 05:23:57 PM
I think the word "police" internationally recognised for what it means, and "do you speak english" in an emergency would do it......otherwise run down hundreds of yards to somewhere instead and ask them to call but dont sit there and make sure they do, just go back, and then go back there again to ask if they did
8-)(--) Its a major wtf moment! that police were not alerted until 2241 that night
Loads of old threads on it, just do a search on 112 and you will find them
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 28, 2014, 05:59:06 PM
Witness statement from PJ files. He puts the timing of the alarm being raised at 9.20pm. Definitely worth a read as he gives quite a few timings.
All these pesky witnesses. If it wasn't for them, the Tapas story might ring true.
"snortle"
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 28, 2014, 06:18:14 PM
deleted!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 28, 2014, 06:41:50 PM
Witnesses give the timing of the alarm being raised and 'a commotion' relating to the disappearance of Madeleine as being earlier than 10pm. This raises a number of questions, one of which why the police were not alerted at an earlier stage by the McCanns or their friends.
I really don't think so.. If it were so, they had found a way to call (elliptic, not absurd). The group and the staff had no authority to call the police. The receptionist might have called if it had been asked by the missing child's father.
You don't need authority to call the police. If you feel that there is a serious emergency, you call the police. It is that simple.
In my opinion, there was a deliberate delay in calling the police and the McCanns wanted other people to do it so they could distance themselves from Madeleine's disappearance. However, it is interesting to speculate what might have happened if the police had been on the scene sooner. At 9.30pm, say.
But in general the police will not be there BEFORE a crime has been committed. They will only be there afterwards.
They formed an opinion on who was responsible for the disappearance of Madeleine. I see no reason to question that opinion although the exact motives and what exactly happened are as yet unclear.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 28, 2014, 08:31:31 PM
Would you call the police if you were close to the victim, equipped with a phone and physically fit or would you offer to do it ?
I think the only point I was really trying to make it that given that Jane Tanner thinks she saw Madeleine being carried away by the abductor, I would have thought that the minute Jane learned that Madeleine was missing she would have got onto her phone and called the police. Why hang around waiting for reception to do it? That would simply delay the process.
Yes, there have been quite a few occasions when I have called the police on behalf of other people if they were too distressed or panicky, for instance. But even if the McCAnns were in too much of a panic, then their friends could still have called.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 29, 2014, 10:20:27 AM
Still, if Smithman has anything to do with it, one can see why there was a delay in calling the police - until well after 10pm.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on January 29, 2014, 10:24:12 AM
I think the only point I was really trying to make it that given that Jane Tanner thinks she saw Madeleine being carried away by the abductor, I would have thought that the minute Jane learned that Madeleine was missing she would have got onto her phone and called the police. Why hang around waiting for reception to do it? That would simply delay the process.
Yes, there have been quite a few occasions when I have called the police on behalf of other people if they were too distressed or panicky, for instance. But even if the McCAnns were in too much of a panic, then their friends could still have called.
I agree, I know what it is like to lose sight of a youngster when abroad and how a blind panic sets in. But there were several professional medical doctors in that group yet not one of them had the brains to phone 112.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 29, 2014, 10:27:05 AM
All these pesky witnesses. If it wasn't for them, the Tapas story might ring true.
Indeed. Although I think the Tapas story still has more holes in it than a colander.
What is extraordinary is that some people can just never, ever, accept that they got something wrong or made a mistake. Rather than admit it, they will try to blame everyone else, rather than accept any responsibility. Taken to an extreme this type of behaviour is most definitely on the spectrum of personality disorder.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on January 29, 2014, 10:29:26 AM
For some reason the tapas group did not feel they could trust the restaurant staff and that is something which has always bothered me. I have read through all the staff statements and in virtually every case they were in a state of confusion as to what was really going on. It was as if they were being treated as aliens or even worse, suspects?
I get the distinct impression there was some snobbery going on here. The Portuguese restaurant and bar staff, many of whom spoke English, would only have been too willing to help if only someone had asked them properly.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 29, 2014, 10:31:51 AM
Indeed. Although I think the Tapas story still has more holes in it than a colander.
What is extraordinary is that some people can just never, ever, accept that they got something wrong or made a mistake. Rather than admit it, they will try to blame everyone else, rather than accept any responsibility. Taken to an extreme this type of behaviour is most definitely on the spectrum of personality disorder.
You've also got to look at their occupations - almost all doctors plus a lawyer - two professional groups that never admit they are at fault.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 29, 2014, 10:37:21 AM
I agree, I know what it is like to lose sight of a youngster when abroad and how a blind panic sets in. But there were several professional medical doctors in that group yet not one of them had the brains to phone 112.
Yes indeed. But of course that does beg the question that perhaps they CHOSE not to phone 112, for their own reasons, until later. Once the alarm had been raised (and the timings here are suspicious) it was only a matter of time before the police would arrive on the scene.
But it's a bit rich for the McCanns to criticize the delay in police arriving when they had chosen not to call them immediately, or get their friends to call them. In her book Kate claims that Jane Tanner immediate reported her sighting to the police when she heard about Madeleine's disappearance.
I would like to see the mobile phone records for this. That would mean that Jane Tanner called the police just after 10pm. Yet the first call to the police is logged as being later than this.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 29, 2014, 10:40:14 AM
You've also got to look at their occupations - almost all doctors plus a lawyer - two professional groups that never admit they are at fault.
Now we are getting somewhere! Yes, I think that this is a key factor in this case. Absolutely key. Not just in terms of never admitting being at fault, but also in other aspects of the case. The reputation management and so on.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Cariad on January 29, 2014, 03:28:28 PM
To suggest that the McCanns who had previously lived in Holland for a year did not know the European emergency number 112 is quite frankly laughable.
In a real emergency you just dial the number and make yourself understood as best you can. If that is not successful then take the trouble to involve reception.
I forgot that! Yes, if you live somewhere for a year, there really isn't any excuse not to know.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 03:52:06 PM
I forgot that! Yes, if you live somewhere for a year, there really isn't any excuse not to know.
So did I. I was chosen as the single European emergency number in 1991 and was supposed to be in effect within five years. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/world/02iht-number.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/world/02iht-number.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: VIXTE on January 29, 2014, 03:58:20 PM
To suggest that the McCanns who had previously lived in Holland for a year did not know the European emergency number 112 is quite frankly laughable.
In a real emergency you just dial the number and make yourself understood as best you can. If that is not successful then take the trouble to involve reception.
I wouldn't remember that in the case of a stressful situation. The most logical call in a holiday complex would be to call the reception.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 04:06:11 PM
You wouldn't remember the emergency number in an emergency? What planet are you on? They lived in holland for a year and had also travelled in Europe a number of other times. They are also doctors so you would think emergency numbers would register with them more than others.
Sorry but you're talking utter garbage!
There are different numbers in different countries.. I experienced change of these numbers several times in my lifetime in different countries I lived in..
They sent Matthew Oldfield to the reception.. this is at least what I think or I read happened.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 05:18:45 PM
They sent Matthew Oldfield to the reception.. this is at least what I think or I read happened.
Like in stone age. He went and didn't obtain the simple thing he was asked to.. Once more : their national emergency number would redirect the caller to the 112 of the host country.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: VIXTE on January 29, 2014, 07:06:02 PM
Like in stone age. He went and didn't obtain the simple thing he was asked to.. Once more : their national emergency number would redirect the caller to the 112 of the host country.
Yes.. to me that is one of the strangest stories in the whole case..
Then Mark Warner started their own procedure they do when a child goes missing.
So, it could also be them deciding to not to call the police..
I wish we can know why the police wasn't called at this time and whose decision this was!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2014, 07:18:57 PM
I wasn't aware of that number until Madeleine disappeared.
In similar circumstances, I would probably have got someone to run down to reception, explained the situation, and got them to call. The reception was the caretaker in a sense, and they did get the missing child action plan organised very quickly and dealt with contacting the police. Having alerted the reception and delegated that task, it left other members of the group free to search.
Even if they had phoned 112, in the panic, would any of them have been able to remember or explain the precise address of the apartment?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2014, 07:38:56 PM
I'm quite sure they would have been capable of knowing their own apartment number! The rest is pretty easy.... Ocean club, Praia Da Luz. PLEASE COME QUICKLY - SOMEBODY HAS TAKEN MY DAUGHTER FROM THE APARTMENT
That message was conveyed to the reception, which then got the missing child protocol going. At that time, none of them could have known whether she'd be found in 5 mins or not.
Who, of the GNR, actually spoke English? The meeting place was the OC reception, where Portuguese speakers were there to help.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 07:45:11 PM
That message was conveyed to the reception, which then got the missing child protocol going. At that time, none of them could have known whether she'd be found in 5 mins or not.
Who, of the GNR, actually spoke English? The meeting place was the OC reception, where Portuguese speakers were there to help.
Come on, Carana, Mrs McCann knew immediately ! Or don't you believe her ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 07:48:34 PM
All GNR officers know English, first foreign language taught at school from 10 on . If Portuguese are not fluent in English as they wish they should, they pretend not to speak.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2014, 07:50:58 PM
All GNR officers know English, first foreign language taught at school from 10 on . If Portuguese are not fluent in English as they wish they should, they pretend not to speak.
Home » Algarve » Algarve GNR officers brush up on foreign languages Algarve GNR officers brush up on foreign languages in Algarve · 14-11-2013 15:46:00 · 1 Comments
A partnership between the Algarve’s National Republican Guard (GNR) force and the regional job and training institute will provide around one hundred officers with fifty-hour courses in English and German. Algarve GNR officers brush up on foreign languages
A first lesson under the new partnership was held on 4 November in Portimão, attended by close to two dozen officers who enrolled on the course. The courses, which were drawn up and agreed in October, are aimed at officers who have direct contact with the general public. On 7 November English courses kicked off at GNR police stations in Albufeira and Tavira, and more are planned for the coming year. The courses are expected to take fifty hours to complete and are attended by officers outside their working hours, being seen as a bonus for both the officers and the institution they represent. Given the Algarve’s popularity as a tourist destination, particularly among Britons and Germans, as well as other northern European nationalities, a sound knowledge of the English and German language is a huge advantage for officers when communicating with citizens. According to a note from the GNR, these courses are being promoted as “essential tools” for officers, not only to improve their public service but also for when liaising with other entities, and offer a learning that is of “enormous importance” to their day-to-day routines.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 08:57:24 PM
For you to brush your Português, Carana ;) O sistema de ensino português proporciona a todos os alunos a aprendizagem de duas línguas estrangeiras durante a escolaridade obrigatória. A primeira língua estrangeira (LE I) curricular obrigatória integra os planos de estudo desde o 5.º ano de escolaridade, e a segunda (LE II) a partir do 7.º ano de escolaridade. Tanto a LE I como a LE II são de frequência obrigatória até ao 9.º ano de escolaridade. http://www.dgidc.min-edu.pt/ensinobasico/index.php?s=directorio&pid=85 (http://www.dgidc.min-edu.pt/ensinobasico/index.php?s=directorio&pid=85)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 29, 2014, 10:28:26 PM
The bottom line is this. Jane Tanner claims she was in their apartment when she heard a commotion outside. This commotion was her friend Kate apparently raising the alarm having checked on her children in their apartment at around 10pm and having found Madeleine missing.
Now, much emphasis was made by Jane Tanner and Kate and the rest of their party about Jane Tanner's sighting of a man carrying a sleeping child near the apartment at around 9.15pm. So important did Jane Tanner consider this sighting to be that when she heard of Madeleine's 'disappearance' it is claimed in Kate's book that she put two and two together and felt 'sick'.
The inference is clear - at 10pm, when Jane Tanner heard that Madeleine was missing, she felt sure that she had seen Madeleine's abductor carrying her away. This is a theme throughout Kate's book and the McCann friends emphasized that as far as they were concerned this was a key sighting.
So, given that Jane Tanner 'felt sick' shortly after 10pm, when she made an association between the man she had seen carrying a child, and Madeleine's disappearance, do you not think it was somewhat irresponsible of her not to just call the police there and then? Why delay? The fact that she delayed and in fact so did Kate and Gerry who relied on the reception, suggests that the McCann party were just as responsible for a delay in the police turning up as anyone else. If not more so.
But, of course, you could argue that the McCanns and their friends - while ostensibly pretending to want the police to turn up, in actual fact were keen to cause a delay, which they would then seek to blame on the very people whose presence they were really not wanting!
Oh what tangled webs we weave...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 29, 2014, 10:33:17 PM
And they have the audacity to blame everyone else for their own failures. Their failure to look after their daughter. Blame it all on the bogey-man, the Portuguese police and pretty much anyone else.
It's time they stood up and faced the music because the charade has gone on way too long and threatens to turn the UK and our justice system into a world-wide farce.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 29, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
Yes indeed. But of course that does beg the question that perhaps they CHOSE not to phone 112, for their own reasons, until later. Once the alarm had been raised (and the timings here are suspicious) it was only a matter of time before the police would arrive on the scene.
But it's a bit rich for the McCanns to criticize the delay in police arriving when they had chosen not to call them immediately, or get their friends to call them. In her book Kate claims that Jane Tanner immediate reported her sighting to the police when she heard about Madeleine's disappearance.
I would like to see the mobile phone records for this. That would mean that Jane Tanner called the police just after 10pm. Yet the first call to the police is logged as being later than this.
I bet they don't exist. JT is said to have spoken to GNR once they arrived just before 11pm and not before. Id like to see a quote from KMs book saying that. My kindle is broken so can't check it.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 29, 2014, 10:58:23 PM
So, given that Jane Tanner 'felt sick' shortly after 10pm, when she made an association between the man she had seen carrying a child, and Madeleine's disappearance, do you not think it was somewhat irresponsible of her not to just call the police there and then? Why delay? The fact that she delayed and in fact so did Kate and Gerry who relied on the reception, suggests that the McCann party were just as responsible for a delay in the police turning up as anyone else. If not more so.
But not only she didn't call the police but she didn't dare tell this to the McCanns. Instead she told it to Rachael and to Fiona and they remain horrified and quiet up to the GNR's arrival, an hour later.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on January 29, 2014, 11:28:47 PM
Yes.. to me that is one of the strangest stories in the whole case..
Then Mark Warner started their own procedure they do when a child goes missing.
So, it could also be them deciding to not to call the police..
I wish we can know why the police wasn't called at this time and whose decision this was!
I have thought exactly the same VIXTE. Why the delay? Perhaps everyone was frightened of the Police? Surely the recptionists weren't involved and using delaying tactics. I guess that OC never expected such a serious scenario and preferred to internalize the trouble, rather than have the world know about a child missing from one of their flats.
Perhaps they were very sensitive about news of all the burglaries getting out ?.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Lace on January 30, 2014, 11:59:00 AM
Oh come on really. The father can take a heart out of someones chest and repair it, yet he doesnt know that in any European country you just dial 112 for emergency services. Its not like they havent been on holiday before.
Didnt the late Mrs Fenn offer to ring the police?
ITS our responsibility, to make sure we know how to deal with emergencys whilst on holiday, BEFORE we leave.
I believe it was about 11 o'clock that Mrs Fenn offered to call the police, by then they had been called a second time.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 30, 2014, 12:02:40 PM
But not only she didn't call the police but she didn't dare tell this to the McCanns. Instead she told it to Rachael and to Fiona and they remain horrified and quiet up to the GNR's arrival, an hour later.
Yes. It makes no sense if you follow their theory of events.
However, it does make sense if you follow a different possible scenario. One in which some of all of the McCann group had some level of involvement and/or knowledge of Madeleine's 'disappearance. It you consider that scenario then it would make sense that there was a deliberate delay in phoning the police.
The police were not called until there was a state of panic and confusion. By the time they arrived, all hell had broken loose. When there is a state of confusion, it is harder to remember who did what when or where people were at a particular time.
If is is correct that the phone call logged with the local police was at 10.40pm, then the police would not be on the scene until close to 11pm.
Given that some witnesses in the resort in their statements put the timing of hearing about a missing child as early as 9.20pm or 9.30pm, then that means the police were not on the scene until an hour and a half after the (alleged) abduction. Or at hour after the time that Kate raised the alarm
Realistically, that would probably place any abductor well away from the resort and maybe the local area by the time the police arrived.
What is still confusing is the witness reports of hearing a commotion between 9.20pm and 9.45pm. If those timings are right, then the McCanns and/or their friends raised the alarm earlier - more like 9.15pm - the the approximate time that Gerry was coming back to the table having spoken to Jeremy.
So Matt's 9.30pm check and Kate's 10pm check could not have happened, if the alarm had already been raised.
What is going on here? They must have been added later.
But why? To allow extra time? To postpone the time of the alleged 'abduction' to postpone the time that the police were called? To allow time for Smithman or whoever to do whatever was necessary.
Or what?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 30, 2014, 12:04:46 PM
But not only she didn't call the police but she didn't dare tell this to the McCanns. Instead she told it to Rachael and to Fiona and they remain horrified and quiet up to the GNR's arrival, an hour later.
So are expected to believe that, despite Jane Tanner believing that she saw the man who abducted Madeleine, and her having told friends, this group of professionals did nothing at the time.
This makes no sense in the context of their stranger abduction theory.
It's a bit like finding out that your child has fallen into a swimming pool and watching in horror while they drown rather than jumping in and saving them.
Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 30, 2014, 12:10:38 PM
I believe it was about 11 o'clock that Mrs Fenn offered to call the police, by then they had been called a second time.
No, Mrs Fenn offered her phone right after the end of the BBC news, 10:30. The police hadn't yet been called. @ Colombosstogey Mr McCann is a heart consultant, not a surgeon.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Lace on January 30, 2014, 12:15:43 PM
This is part of Matt's statement, looks as though they didn't want to phone the police at the OC they thought she might had just walked out by herself.-
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn't in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she might have taken, although I couldn't say why I thought she would because we'd only been there once on that night before and maybe she'd been for the restaurant, so we'd only been at the initial welcoming, that was the only time that we went for that meal in the evening because the food wasn't great there, it wasn't quite up to the MARK WARNER resorts of, but anyway, so we did other things and that's why we liked the Tapas, so there was no reason really why she'd have gone up there, but it was a, just a different route. So a lot of it in terms of timing is blurred, but up and onto the top road to the Millennium Restaurant, which is pretty much you come up and along this road for about sort of five or ten minutes and sort of this end of town, let them know that a little girl was missing and then gone back through the back streets, down on the beach and then back to the apartment. Erm, at some point we were back and forth to the, to the reception as well. And I think what the reception probably did was ring the MARK WARNER people and say, there's somebody that's saying there's a child missing, because by that time there were lost of MARK WARNER people around, erm, and they were very good, they, you know, they obviously, you know, got there and that might have been the impetus that got them to ring the Police, if, because I understand that there is some discrepancy about when we thought we'd called the Police and when the Police were actually called and that might be that they went on the, on that route first and then went, I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well, erm, and, erm, you know, was obviously, you know, sort of intermittently sort of calm and then completely, you know, hysterically upset, it was sort of, you know, it was sort of pretty sort of upsetting, because you didn't know what to really say, because you can't really say, you know, it's going to be okay, because, you know, you assume the worst and it's going to be particularly awful, you know, it's going, you know, some, erm, person's got, (inaudible), some xxxxxxx's got my, you know, got my daughter and she's so innocent.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 30, 2014, 12:31:35 PM
This makes no sense in the context of their stranger abduction theory.
Why didn't the receptionist react as Mr Oldfield asked him to ? I always wondered about Mr Oldfield's words. Did he use the word "abduction" or did he not dare because he wasn't sure? I find it hard to believe that the receptionist, hearing that the shutters had been forced open, would call the children manager instead of the OC manager, John Hill. The unjustified multiplication of intermediaries might have been a secondary effect of panic, but it remains unexplained, as the McCanns knew and claimed that Madeleine had been abducted, why the right number (112) wasn't called either by one of the group or by the receptionist (after order of John Hill), a fact that caused another delay of more than an hour.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 30, 2014, 07:20:35 PM
I believe it was about 11 o'clock that Mrs Fenn offered to call the police, by then they had been called a second time.
No, it was 10 30 The only reason Km said in her book it was 11 was to cover the fct GM had told Mrs Fenn the police had already been called at 10 30 when they hadnt been You cant trust a rewritten history How would KM know the detailed times of anything from that night....duh...surely not clock watching and mking notes! Whilst panicking
seriously
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on January 30, 2014, 11:55:05 PM
But not only she didn't call the police but she didn't dare tell this to the McCanns. Instead she told it to Rachael and to Fiona and they remain horrified and quiet up to the GNR's arrival, an hour later.
AnnGuedes that is an immoral comment.
As you well know if you have read the statements ... and you have, I am sure ...as you well know Jane was horrified as the realisation of what she had likely witnessed sank in. She didn't tell Kate and Gerry cos she was trying to save them further pain. She was sensitive to their feelings. No reason to pile on the agony.
So would you have just barged in and blurted it all out?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 31, 2014, 12:09:00 AM
Interesting what j.rob is saying about the timelines, because if reports of Madeleine's disappearance were indeed given much earlier, then what happens with regard to Smithman?
Even if Tannerman is eliminated, we return to square one again - on the theory that Smithman was the abductor, which, as far as we understand, appears to be one main idea or even the main idea of SY - with regard to the question of what he was doing between the time Madeleine was taken, and the time he was seen by the Smiths. It would only take a few minutes to walk from 5A to where the Smiths met him, so what would have happened in the mean time?
There are theories to suggest that if it was Tannerman who abducted Madeleine, and Tannerman was also Smithman, then the gap between 9.15 and ten or so could be explained by him having gone to the secluded area north of the apartment, into his own apartment, or even into the staff quarters.
But if he took Madeleine - for the sake of argument - at 9.30 or 40, it didn't take all that time to reach the Smiths; on the other hand that probably wouldn't constitute enough time to take an extended detour or soujourn somewhere else.
So how does SY's 'revelation moment' square with the idea of the disappearance being reported well before 10?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 31, 2014, 12:52:06 AM
I believe Smithman moved Madeleine out of the apartment as soon as everyone was at the tapas bar (the safest time to do it) so an hour before he was spotted. He wasn't on the streets in the meantime - he would be long gone by the time of the Smith sighting! That is common sense so there's only one sensible answer. Smithman moved Madeleine a second time an hour later which was the earliest possible time that he could do it if he wanted to remain unsuspected.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 31, 2014, 01:29:53 AM
I believe Smithman moved Madeleine out of the apartment as soon as everyone was at the tapas bar (the safest time to do it) so an hour before he was spotted. He wasn't on the streets in the meantime - he would be long gone by the time of the Smith sighting! That is common sense so there's only one sensible answer. Smithman moved Madeleine a second time an hour later which was the earliest possible time that he could do it if he wanted to remain unsuspected.
Remind me why he would have left these gaps of time, pathfinder?
Wouldn't it be far safer to work quickly?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: colombosstogey on January 31, 2014, 07:05:26 AM
No, Mrs Fenn offered her phone right after the end of the BBC news, 10:30. The police hadn't yet been called. @ Colombosstogey Mr McCann is a heart consultant, not a surgeon.
Sorry i thought he was a heart surgeon too, usually they specialise after they have done a level of surgery etc, and everywhere i looked it said he was a surgeon. Anyway regardless he is still a doctor.
Another inexplicable aspect of the McCann version of events is this. Jane Tanner claims she saw a man carrying a sleeping child at 9.15pm. At the time she did not consider this to be suspicious because Gerry had just checked on Madeleine and everything seemed to be fine.
Okay - so far so good. That is credible.
At 10pm Kate enters the apartment and finds Madeleine missing. She runs out of the apartment to raise the alarm.
Okay - odd, but let's believe everything up to this point.
This is when it gets curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.
According to Kate in her book, the Mark Warner missing child alert is not activated until 10.30pm That strikes me as a long time, given that Kate claims to 'know' that a stranger has abducted her child. Why wait half an hour to alert hotel reception. That's ages.
I don't think its odd. Kate may have suspected someone took her but other people will have advised her to wait while they search for Madeleine assuming she had gone off wandering. As I recall they all through the complex was safe so its unlikely that anyone from friends to staff would immediately assume that Madeleine had been abducted. The 30 minute wait for them to finally call in the police does sound about right after they had made a search for her in and around the apartment complex and resort.
I can't read too much into Kate's initial reaction of her believing Madeleine had been taken. It was an unreal and horrible situation to be in when the child was missing, she naturally panicked and assumed the worse. Parents often do that when children go missing for just a moment in time, anyone taken their eyes off their child in a supermarket for a fraction of a second and then cannot see them?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on January 31, 2014, 10:37:53 AM
Yes. It makes no sense if you follow their theory of events.
However, it does make sense if you follow a different possible scenario. One in which some of all of the McCann group had some level of involvement and/or knowledge of Madeleine's 'disappearance. It you consider that scenario then it would make sense that there was a deliberate delay in phoning the police. The police were not called until there was a state of panic and confusion. By the time they arrived, all hell had broken loose. When there is a state of confusion, it is harder to remember who did what when or where people were at a particular time.
If is is correct that the phone call logged with the local police was at 10.40pm, then the police would not be on the scene until close to 11pm.
Given that some witnesses in the resort in their statements put the timing of hearing about a missing child as early as 9.20pm or 9.30pm, then that means the police were not on the scene until an hour and a half after the (alleged) abduction. Or at hour after the time that Kate raised the alarm
Realistically, that would probably place any abductor well away from the resort and maybe the local area by the time the police arrived.
What is still confusing is the witness reports of hearing a commotion between 9.20pm and 9.45pm. If those timings are right, then the McCanns and/or their friends raised the alarm earlier - more like 9.15pm - the the approximate time that Gerry was coming back to the table having spoken to Jeremy.
So Matt's 9.30pm check and Kate's 10pm check could not have happened, if the alarm had already been raised.
What is going on here? They must have been added later.
But why? To allow extra time? To postpone the time of the alleged 'abduction' to postpone the time that the police were called? To allow time for Smithman or whoever to do whatever was necessary.
Or what?
Good grief - yet ANOTHER part of this cunning plan for the group to remember to follow -i.e. ''Everyone must delay phoning the police.'' How ludicrous can you get?
Why didn't Gerry just wait until the middle of the night - and then dispose of Madeleine's body? No need for anyone else to be involved or for 9 people to have to remember all the convoluted details of this 'plan' to fool the PJ and to provide a cover story. And when on earth did they all discuss and agree to be involved in this massive cover up plan and learn all the stuff they were apparently going to have to remember? It would take hours IMO.
IMo For quite a while after Madeleine disappeared - hopes would be high that she could be found at any minute. JT could not see into the future and had no way of knowing that wouldn't be the case, so why would she add to the parents distress by telling them something which would almost certainly destroy that hope - when there was still a chance Madeleine may be found? IMO As far as she knew the police had already been called and for all she knew they would be arriving in the next few minutes - as once again - she could not see into the future. As soon as the GNR arrived - she told them.
Once again - you forget none of them had the benefit of hindsight which you now have - and constantly and unfairly use against them IMO.
Whether the first phone call was made at 10.40 or not - it is clear that they all THOUGHT the police had been called by Reception staff within 10mins or so of the alarm being raised. The fact that OC staff were arriving as a result of phone calls instigated by Reception staff would have strengthened the belief that their request for the police to be called had also been acted upon. It now seems very likely that it wasn't. IMO.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on January 31, 2014, 10:52:13 AM
I don't think its odd. Kate may have suspected someone took her but other people will have advised her to wait while they search for Madeleine assuming she had gone off wandering. As I recall they all through the complex was safe so its unlikely that anyone from friends to staff would immediately assume that Madeleine had been abducted. The 30 minute wait for them to finally call in the police does sound about right after they had made a search for her in and around the apartment complex and resort.
I can't read too much into Kate's initial reaction of her believing Madeleine had been taken. It was an unreal and horrible situation to be in when the child was missing, she naturally panicked and assumed the worse. Parents often do that when children go missing for just a moment in time, anyone taken their eyes off their child in a supermarket for a fraction of a second and then cannot see them?
I agree. However, there's an enormous difference between losing sight of your child in a supermarket and going into their bedroom and finding them missing - and windows/shutters which you knew had been closed when you left - were now open.
Lots of people have told of when their child went missing (temporarily) - and although I'm not one of them, it's obvious to me that the parents primary panic is based on the fact that their child may have been taken away by someone. But they do know there is a very strong possibility their child may have just wondered off. IMO Kate did not have that to cling on to - because she knew her own child and did not believe in her heart that she was capable of opening the window/shutters.
I can fully understand her reaction.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 31, 2014, 01:01:23 PM
Good grief - yet ANOTHER part of this cunning plan for the group to remember to follow -i.e. ''Everyone must delay phoning the police.'' How ludicrous can you get?
Well I don't think it is ludicrous at all. Something happened to Madeleine that the McCanns wanted to cover up. Going out in the middle of the night would be massively suspicious. It would immediately arouse suspicion if anyone happened to see or hear them. Plus it would give a large time frame where the McCanns could not be accounted for and had not been seen - there would be no alibis. It is clear that the McCanns and their friends thought the timeline very important - plus the fact that the McCanns were seen that evening by quite a few people. If either of them had been absent for a large part of the evening, or not seen by anyone, that would be suspicious.
Why didn't Gerry just wait until the middle of the night - and then dispose of Madeleine's body? No need for anyone else to be involved or for 9 people to have to remember all the convoluted details of this 'plan' to fool the PJ and to provide a cover story. And when on earth did they all discuss and agree to be involved in this massive cover up plan and learn all the stuff they were apparently going to have to remember? It would take hours IMO.
It may be the the others did not entirely understand what was going on. I don't know. Perhaps they were concerned about possible neglect charges as they all left their children unattended for in the evening. Perhaps they all panicked and decided if they stuck together and showed how they checked up on the children it would show that they all felt it was a reasonable thing to do and would ward off neglect charges.
IMo For quite a while after Madeleine disappeared - hopes would be high that she could be found at any minute.
Once again, you are rewriting history. The PJ observed that in the days following Madeleine's disappearance, Kate and Gerry showed little hope that she would be found. In fact, they even tried to sleep on the night of hver disappearance. That is quite extraordinary.
JT could not see into the future and had no way of knowing that wouldn't be the case, so why would she add to the parents distress by telling them something which would almost certainly destroy that hope - when there was still a chance Madeleine may be found?
Again, this is completely illogical. If you thought you had seen the abductor, you would want police on the scene as soon as possible. Why would it destroy all hope, necessarily? Madeleine may have been found by a childless couple, for instance. I know it's not likely but it's not impossible. Some children who are abducted are returned. It can happen
IMO As far as she knew the police had already been called and for all she knew they would be arriving in the next few minutes - as once again - she could not see into the future. As soon as the GNR arrived - she told them.
Why did both the McCanns wail and become practically hysterical if they still had some hope that Madeleine would be found. They both told the PJ that they thought she had been abducted by a paedophile ring. That's about as bad as it can get. The PJ, quite sensibly, did not believe their version events. Simply because it was unbelievable
Once again - you forget none of them had the benefit of hindsight which you now have - and constantly and unfairly use against them IMO.
Look up the statistics on accidents involving young children. They are not uncommon at all and deaths occur. It was not sensible to leave three children under four alone in an apartment at night without adult supervision. If, as Kate claims, she thought the abductor drugged the children, why on earth did she not get the twins medically checked? That was a glaring omission. In my opinion, the children probably had been drugged, but not by a stranger. This would account for the excessively deep sleep that the twins were in. I also think that the McCanns brought it up in case the twins WERE medically checked and were found to have been medicated. They are bloody lucky that the police didn't insist on medical examination of the twins as if this has happened at home, I am pretty sure that would have been the case. And that could have landed them in all sorts of trouble.
Whether the first phone call was made at 10.40 or not - it is clear that they all THOUGHT the police had been called by Reception staff within 10mins or so of the alarm being raised. The fact that OC staff were arriving as a result of phone calls instigated by Reception staff would have strengthened the belief that their request for the police to be called had also been acted upon. It now seems very likely that it wasn't. IMO.
It really isn't very difficult to pick up your phone and dial three numbers. Have you ever been on the scene of a road accident - often there will be half a dozen people on their mobiles seeking help. You don't send someone off to find a public telephone while someone is lying bleeding in the road.
The McCanns have got away with.......well.....it is all crazy.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 31, 2014, 01:03:13 PM
Must get the hang of the quote feature. In the above post, my comments are in bold!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 31, 2014, 01:07:27 PM
It really isn't very difficult to pick up your phone and dial three numbers. Have you ever been on the scene of a road accident - often there will be half a dozen people on their mobiles seeking help. You don't send someone off to find a public telephone while someone is lying bleeding in the road.
The McCanns have got away with.......well.....it is all crazy.
MccANNS don't speak Portuguese so would have had to rely on MW staff to call police...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 31, 2014, 01:20:18 PM
They could have called and asked if anyone spoke English. The Algarve is very touristy so the police must deal with British tourists who do not speak English all the time. Or they could have asked one of the staff nearby (eg: at the restaurant) if they could help if there were communication problems over the phone -eg: staff could take the phone and interpret some or all of the conversation.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 01:26:16 PM
They could have called and asked if anyone spoke English. The Algarve is very touristy so the police must deal with British tourists who do not speak English all the time. Or they could have asked one of the staff nearby (eg: at the restaurant) if they could help if there were communication problems over the phone -eg: staff could take the phone and interpret some or all of the conversation.
Or they could have done that AND send someone to reception!
The argument of them not speaking Portuguese or others alledgedly not speaking English is a big red herring...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: j.rob on January 31, 2014, 01:46:28 PM
Indeed. There are so many red herrings in this case, not to mention red flags billowing in the breeze.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2014, 10:24:35 PM
As you well know if you have read the statements ... and you have, I am sure ...as you well know Jane was horrified as the realisation of what she had likely witnessed sank in. She didn't tell Kate and Gerry cos she was trying to save them further pain. She was sensitive to their feelings. No reason to pile on the agony.
So would you have just barged in and blurted it all out?
That is the strangest comment I have seen in here. Someone thinks she may have seen an abductor but doesn't bother telling the frantic parents so as not to upset them. Good grief.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 10:26:44 PM
That is the strangest comment I have seen in here. Someone thinks she may have seen an abductor but doesn't bother telling the frantic parents so as not to upset them. Good grief.
Pathetic isnt it
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Cariad on January 31, 2014, 10:41:53 PM
That is the strangest comment I have seen in here. Someone thinks she may have seen an abductor but doesn't bother telling the frantic parents so as not to upset them. Good grief.
You missed the one about the kilt then.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 31, 2014, 10:46:25 PM
That is the strangest comment I have seen in here. Someone thinks she may have seen an abductor but doesn't bother telling the frantic parents so as not to upset them. Good grief.
makes perfect sense to me....as does going jogging
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2014, 11:00:59 PM
At about 21:10 22:10 MO reports disappearance to someone at reception. At 21:40 22:40 the first call to GNR is made from reception landline by the receptionist.
So just after 21:10 22:10 whoever MO spoke to at reception is likely to have phoned someone else OC/MW? No such outgoing call in the phone records of reception landline, so probably from mobile?
(edited to correct times)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 11:14:27 PM
At about 21:10 MO reports disappearance to someone at reception. At 21:40 the first call to GNR is made from reception landline by the receptionist.
So just after 21:10 whoever MO spoke to at reception is likely to have phoned someone else OC/MW? No such outgoing call in the phone records of reception landline, so probably from mobile?
It's 22:10 and 22:40. Fiona asked Matt to go to reception and call. Reception didn't want to call police - they want to inform manager John Hill first probably. He arrived on the scene shortly before the call made at 10:40pm. No excuse with mobile phones - they could contact police themselves as Kate was certain "They've taken her!"
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
Sorry yes its about 22:10 when MO informs someone at reception, and 22:40 when the receptionist calls GNR. Just wondering if maybe the person at reception to whom MO spoke was someone other than the receptionist? Receptionist says he called GNR because a tapas employee phoned him. Receptionist does not mention speaking to MO.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 01, 2014, 12:51:04 AM
Matt probably told the first employee he saw there- maybe that person told the receptionist to call. Who is the receptionist who made the call? Thanks.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 01:14:46 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm A tapas employee phoned him so he phoned GNR. Another time anomaly here. Statement transcription error maybe? In phone records the first call to GNR is 22:40.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 10:04:08 PM
That is the strangest comment I have seen in here. Someone thinks she may have seen an abductor but doesn't bother telling the frantic parents so as not to upset them. Good grief.
Jane Tanner was expecting the police at any moment. As far as the Tapas group were concerned MO had alerted at 10.10 to reception ... to call the police.
She did the right thing waiting for the police to arrive rather than perhaps unecessarily worrying the parents. What could the parents do about it anyway if their child had been abducted ?
The reception or the police let them all down, with such a long wait. Jane did exactly the right thing
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 17, 2014, 10:51:48 PM
Jane Tanner was expecting the police at any moment. As far as the Tapas group were concerned MO had alerted at 10.10 to reception ... to call the police.
She did the right thing waiting for the police to arrive rather than perhaps unecessarily worrying the parents. What could the parents do about it anyway if their child had been abducted ?
The reception or the police let them all down, with such a long wait. Jane did exactly the right thing
Ummm......SEARCH?????
8()(((@#
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 11:33:45 PM
Jane Tanner was expecting the police at any moment. As far as the Tapas group were concerned MO had alerted at 10.10 to reception ... to call the police.
She did the right thing waiting for the police to arrive rather than perhaps unecessarily worrying the parents. What could the parents do about it anyway if their child had been abducted ?
The reception or the police let them all down, with such a long wait. Jane did exactly the right thing
Matthew was far too easily fobbed off! He should have stood his ground and insisted the police were contacted instead of running all over PdL like a scalded cat.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on March 18, 2014, 12:53:36 AM
Matthew was far too easily fobbed off! He should have stood his ground and insisted the police were contacted instead of running all over PdL like a scalded cat.
In hindsight Matthew might well agree with you John - but no-one knows for sure how they will react to massive shock - they only think they do IMO.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 18, 2014, 01:06:41 AM
Jane Tanner was expecting the police at any moment. As far as the Tapas group were concerned MO had alerted at 10.10 to reception ... to call the police.
She did the right thing waiting for the police to arrive rather than perhaps unecessarily worrying the parents. What could the parents do about it anyway if their child had been abducted ?
The reception or the police let them all down, with such a long wait. Jane did exactly the right thing
"As far as the group were concerned MO had alerted at 10.10 to reception ... to call the police"
Why were they ? ... why 'as far as they were concerned' was it assumed '' that Matthew Olfield had arranged for reception to call the police at 10.10pm ?
I mean he ( Oldfield ) KNEW that reception had not called the police at that point ( that is clear from his rogatory interview )
Didn't he tell Gerry and Kate that ?
When he went back to to the apartment, KNOWING that the police had not been called, didn't it occur to him to tell the McCanns that was the case ? ... didn't it occur to him to say "I asked them to ring the polce Gerry, but they said we should make a thorough search before we do that" ?
He just went back and 'pretended' that the police had been called, did he ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Eleanor on March 18, 2014, 03:00:22 AM
So much hindsight. They didn't speak the language and they didn't know the system. And I expect they thought that The Ocean Club were better able to deal with it, which they probably were. Even The Police thought that Madeleine had wandered off, which was not an unusual assumption. Kate might have known different but she was in no state to be coherent. Personally, On reflection, I don't understand what the fuss is about. It wasn't anyone's fault initially.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 03:22:13 AM
So much hindsight. They didn't speak the language and they didn't know the system. And I expect they thought that The Ocean Club were better able to deal with it, which they probably were. Even The Police thought that Madeleine had wandered off, which was not an unusual assumption. Kate might have known different but she was in no state to be coherent. Personally, On reflection, I don't understand what the fuss is about. It wasn't anyone's fault initially.
Hindsight ?
... it wasn't 'hindsight' ... Matthew Oldfield KNEW that the police hadn't been called ( that is perfectly clear from his rogatory interview )
Do you believe that he did not relay that to the McCanns when he went back to the apartment ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Eleanor on March 18, 2014, 03:40:30 AM
... it wasn't 'hindsight' ... Matthew Oldfield KNEW that the police hadn't been called ( that is perfectly clear from his rogatory interview )
Do you believe that he did not relay that to the McCanns when he went back to the apartment ?
I meant, wouldn't everyone do things differently given a second chance. There are a lot of If Onlys in anyone's life. But in hindsight I don't think it would have made a lot of difference in the light of what else happened. But I can assure you that if any child ever disappears near me then I will be very much more on the ball Won't we all.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on March 18, 2014, 09:48:12 PM
It is understandable, but an error of logic, to assume that an open window and shutter mean abduction.
Kate and Gerry would know.
They knew what Madeleine was capable of. They knew if she could have opened the window and the shutter They would know if she would have dared to jump out into that black area behind the wall. They would see if the bed under the window was freshly made, or creased They could see if there were any marks on the cill etc. They would know if she would even dream of leaving CCat. They would know if she would waken the twins first
Also, had she taken the back way out She had never gone out thru the window before. so as intelligent parents, they would find it unlikely that she would chose to go that way. She had always used the patio door or the front door. According to statements IIRC, the bedroom window had never been tried and the shutters not raised, since they arrived Please correct me if I am wrong.
They would know if she was capable of sliding the patio door. They would know if she would close it again. They would know if she would leave her comforter Ccact behind. They would know if she was aware of where they were eating They would know that she would have seen them the instant she left the actual indoor part to go onto the patio area. There was a direct view of the group from there, just 50 metres away in a lit outdoor restaurant THey would know that she had a bog voice and was not shy of using it.
So much that they would have known and probably more. All stuff that we dont know.
Sure, they would have had a pretty good idea that she had been taken ... but they desperately wouldn't want to believe it
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 10:32:57 PM
Good point. It may be easy for a child standing inside to slide open the patio door, but it is more difficult for a child standing outside to slide it shut (no handle outside).
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 11:30:34 PM
Good question. IMO the lounge patio door was probably left slided completely closed between checks. IMO this does not lock it (that can be done only from inside lounge). To close or open from outside there is no handle but press against exterior frame/glass to get enough grip to slide it.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 19, 2014, 12:17:20 AM
Get your facts right J.Rob. Matt ran to OC main reception as soon as they realised that Madeleine was not wandering around in the immediate vicinity. IIRC he asked for the Police to be called by 10.15pm, but reception did not react properly. Seems an official OC process had to be gone thru. before calling Police.
When the Police, who were only the GNR, finally arrived. Remember Madeleine was reported missing at 10.15 ish and the police were expected any second. The Mccann Family were really let down by the late arrival of the GNR, who failed to arrive for approximately 50 minutes. The first golden hour gone !
You are perpetuating a myth
The police did NOT "fail to arrive for 50 minutes" ... they were not contacted until 10.41pm, and arrived at the scene less than 20 minutes later ( phone records establish that fact without question )
Here's the thing though
When Matthew Oldfield returned from reception KNOWING that the police had NOT been called ( and he makes it perfectly clear in his regotary statement that he was fully aware that the police had not been contacted at that point ) did he tell the McCanns, or not ?
Did he go back to the apartment and tell Kate and Gerry that the receptionist had advised they do a more thorough search before contacting the police ( and that he had accepted that advice )
You'd think he would, wouldn't you ? ... you think he'd relay that information back to the McCanns wouldn't you ?
Or did Matthew Oldfield, for some inexplicable reason, decide not to mention that his request for the police to be called had been rejected by the OC receptionist ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 12:50:43 AM
The police did NOT "fail to arrive for 50 minutes" ... they were not contacted until 10.41pm, and arrived at the scene less than 20 minutes later ( phone records establish that fact without question )
Here's the thing though
When Matthew Oldfield returned from reception KNOWING that the police had NOT been called ( and he makes it perfectly clear in his regotary statement that he was fully aware that the police had not been contacted at that point ) did he tell the McCanns, or not ?
Did he go back to the apartment and tell Kate and Gerry that the receptionist had advised they do a more thorough search before contacting the police ( and that he had accepted that advice )
You'd think he would, wouldn't you ? ... you think he'd relay that information back to the McCanns wouldn't you ?
Or did Matthew Oldfield, for some inexplicable reason, decide not to mention that his request for the police to be called had been rejected by the OC receptionist ?
Revised translation.
Processos Volume II
Pages 331 - 333
Witness Statement
Vitor Manuel dos Santos
Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H00
Occupation: Head of Accommodation
Place of Work: Ocean Club
He comes to the process as a witness. He has worked as Head of Accommodation at the resort for seven years, but has been employed there for the past 18 years.
His functions are the management of bookings and the control of contracts whether with private individuals or travel agencies. He is responsible for the management and supervision of the reception.
As concerns the facts being investigated, he says he received the McCann booking as normal and he points out that this reservation was made by Mark Warner, whose representative is John Hill.
He says that it is normal for each reservation to make specifications and that in this case in concrete a request was made that the four families should be accommodated close to each other and a ground floor apartment was requested enabling easy access for the families with small children.
He adds that this family booked from 28th April to 5th May on a half board basis, in other words, breakfast and dinner. For dinner the guests could choose between two options, the Tapas and the Millenium and although the meals are identical, the clients choose the restaurant according to its proximity to their accommodation.
In this case in concrete, the rational choice for dinner would be the Tapas restaurant as it is 100 metres distance from the apartment, whilst the Millenium is situated 600 metres away.
The witness states that from the restaurant it is possible to see the apartment including the window of the living room and the bedroom where the parents slept. The bedroom where the three children slept, situated at the opposite end of the apartment was completely outside of the field of sight of anyone in the Tapas restaurant.
Therefore the most viable solution would be to leave the children in the parents bedroom or in the living room where they could easily be checked from the place where the parents were dining.
When questioned about the availability of a baby sitting service from 19.30 to 23.30 he confirms that this service exists and that it is free.
When asked, the witness replies that he cannot understand why as the service was free, the McCanns did not use it.
When asked, he says that before the disappearance he did not have any contact with the family, they were “just” clients like hundreds of others who stayed at the resort.
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
The witness then went to the apartment where there was an agglomeration of persons, however he managed to perceive that the apartment did not show any sign of disturbance not that anyone had attempted to break in.
He adds that he heard it said at the scene that the mother had not left the shutter open as she always closed the shutter when she left. When asked, he says that he did not notice anything strange in relation to the apartment or its surroundings.
The witness states that the resort did not have any kind of security or cameras.
He never saw anything suspicious or abnormal. He was asked to provide a copy of the rooming list, showing the information relating to the booking made by the family, which he immediately provided and which is annexed to the statement.
The witness says that he has nothing else useful to add.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 01:29:39 AM
... The police did NOT "fail to arrive for 50 minutes" ... they were not contacted until 10.41pm, and arrived at the scene less than 20 minutes later ( phone records establish that fact without question ) ...
Agreed, the 2241 phonecall is doubly confirmed (by both the OC and the GNR phone records), and the GNR got there fast.
IMO the missing child was reported by MO at about 2215 to someone in the 24-hour reception building. The receptionist for that shift says the first he heard of the emergency was by a phonecall from another employee. Maybe there was a different employee at the desk when it was reported? Also evening creche is in the same building as 24 hour reception (and possibly directly upstairs from it???) and the 3 employees at creche knew about it already fairly soon after 2200 from a creche mum so it seems reasonable to assume that reception would also know?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 19, 2014, 01:38:28 AM
He comes to the process as a witness. He has worked as Head of Accommodation at the resort for seven years, but has been employed there for the past 18 years.
His functions are the management of bookings and the control of contracts whether with private individuals or travel agencies. He is responsible for the management and supervision of the reception.
As concerns the facts being investigated, he says he received the McCann booking as normal and he points out that this reservation was made by Mark Warner, whose representative is John Hill.
He says that it is normal for each reservation to make specifications and that in this case in concrete a request was made that the four families should be accommodated close to each other and a ground floor apartment was requested enabling easy access for the families with small children.
He adds that this family booked from 28th April to 5th May on a half board basis, in other words, breakfast and dinner. For dinner the guests could choose between two options, the Tapas and the Millenium and although the meals are identical, the clients choose the restaurant according to its proximity to their accommodation.
In this case in concrete, the rational choice for dinner would be the Tapas restaurant as it is 100 metres distance from the apartment, whilst the Millenium is situated 600 metres away.
The witness states that from the restaurant it is possible to see the apartment including the window of the living room and the bedroom where the parents slept. The bedroom where the three children slept, situated at the opposite end of the apartment was completely outside of the field of sight of anyone in the Tapas restaurant.
Therefore the most viable solution would be to leave the children in the parents bedroom or in the living room where they could easily be checked from the place where the parents were dining.
When questioned about the availability of a baby sitting service from 19.30 to 23.30 he confirms that this service exists and that it is free.
When asked, the witness replies that he cannot understand why as the service was free, the McCanns did not use it.
When asked, he says that before the disappearance he did not have any contact with the family, they were “just” clients like hundreds of others who stayed at the resort.
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.
Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.
When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.
The witness then went to the apartment where there was an agglomeration of persons, however he managed to perceive that the apartment did not show any sign of disturbance not that anyone had attempted to break in.
He adds that he heard it said at the scene that the mother had not left the shutter open as she always closed the shutter when she left. When asked, he says that he did not notice anything strange in relation to the apartment or its surroundings.
The witness states that the resort did not have any kind of security or cameras.
He never saw anything suspicious or abnormal. He was asked to provide a copy of the rooming list, showing the information relating to the booking made by the family, which he immediately provided and which is annexed to the statement.
The witness says that he has nothing else useful to add.
No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.
I do not understand why you have brought this witness statement in reply to the question I posed ... it has no relevance that I can see
To reiterate, I asked whether or not Matthew Oldfield told the McCanns that the Ocean club receptionist had NOT contacted the police when he first told them of Madeleine's disappearance ?
He was fully aware that the police had NOT been contacted at 10.15pm ... he makes that clear in his rogatory statement
So did he tell the McCanns that or not ? ... and if he didn't ( and the McCanns have made no mention of it ) then WHY didn't he ?
Did he allow the McCanns to believe that he had gone to reception and ensured the police had been contacted when he knew they had not ?
Why would he do that ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2014, 07:44:48 AM
Jane Tanner was expecting the police at any moment. As far as the Tapas group were concerned MO had alerted at 10.10 to reception ... to call the police.
She did the right thing waiting for the police to arrive rather than perhaps unecessarily worrying the parents. What could the parents do about it anyway if their child had been abducted ?
The reception or the police let them all down, with such a long wait. Jane did exactly the right thing
Icabod, where have I said 10.15? Where have I said Jane Tanner waited 50 minutes?
Why are you changing my words? Please do not twist my words and spin what I said
The police did NOT "fail to arrive for 50 minutes" ... they were not contacted until 10.41pm, and arrived at the scene less than 20 minutes later ( phone records establish that fact without question )
Here's the thing though
When Matthew Oldfield returned from reception KNOWING that the police had NOT been called ( and he makes it perfectly clear in his regotary statement that he was fully aware that the police had not been contacted at that point ) did he tell the McCanns, or not ?
Did he go back to the apartment and tell Kate and Gerry that the receptionist had advised they do a more thorough search before contacting the police ( and that he had accepted that advice )
You'd think he would, wouldn't you ? ... you think he'd relay that information back to the McCanns wouldn't you ?
Or did Matthew Oldfield, for some inexplicable reason, decide not to mention that his request for the police to be called had been rejected by the OC receptionist ?
I have just said he cantacted the reception and asked them to contact the police at 10.10 (I agree, 10.10 -ish, could be as late as 10.15, maybe))
I then said that Jane Tanner did the correct thing, she waited fopr the Police to arrive .... but no way would they have expected the police to be so long.
What you are saying is completely irrelevant to what I said, but it highlights the delay, seemingly at reception, then with the GNR ... so thanks Icabod.
On this occasion the way you have altered my words has worked out well for my side of the argument. It shows just how long Jane had to wait. 10.10 ish to (according to you) about 11.01. Seems she had to wait over 50 minutes Jeepers !
Please do NOT alter my words again. That is spin (politely put!)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 11:35:54 AM
Icadbod reply to your post below The Title of the thread? So this Witness in his statement was telling lies as was the person who rang him at 10.15 to say the police had been called .By the time this witness got to the Reception ,the police were already there questioning Gerry. How did they get there if nobody called them? .There is no chance that anyone else phoned from a different phone or mobile? The police arrived at the Apartment at around 24.00 Hrs according to another witness who was there with Kate ( I will not include that statement) and from that police officer's statement. Somebody has got it wrong. Who? And how could anyone know what MO said or thought regarding alerting the police?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 19, 2014, 02:19:45 PM
Manager John Hill first learned about the incident from Kid Club supervisor Lindsay Johnson at 10.28pm so receptionist Helder could not have communicated with him at 10.15pm. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was confused.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on March 19, 2014, 03:16:38 PM
For the benefit of any new member or reader (give or take a minute or two)
10.00 Kate McCann finds Madeleine gone from the holiday apartment.
11.00 First two Portuguese police officers (GNR) arrive at the resort reception.
12.10 The Portuguese criminal police (PJ) arrive at the resort.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 19, 2014, 03:40:50 PM
For the benefit of any new member or reader (give or take a minute or two)
10.00 Kate McCann finds Madeleine gone from the holiday apartment.
10.41 Police are contacted
11.00 First two Portuguese police officers (GNR) arrive at the resort reception.
12.10 The Portuguese criminal police (PJ) arrive at the resort.
I have added the bit in bold above
In the context of this thread, which questions the delay between Madeleine being found missing, and the first phone call to the police is very important
There was a delay of forty minutes between those two events which has never been adequately explained by the tapas group
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Eleanor on March 19, 2014, 03:56:26 PM
In the context of this thread, which questions the delay between Madeleine being found missing, and the first phone call to the police is very important
There was a delay of forty minutes between those two events which has never been adequately explained by the tapas group
It wasn't their place to explain it. What makes you think it was? They were in a foreign country and dependent on help. It was never their fault.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 04:48:15 PM
For the benefit of any new member or reader (give or take a minute or two)
10.00 Kate McCann finds Madeleine gone from the holiday apartment.
11.00 First two Portuguese police officers (GNR) arrive at the resort reception.
12.10 The Portuguese criminal police (PJ) arrive at the resort.
The police had ben contacted twice, before they responded with urgency So what time was the first call made?
Regarding the facts on 3rd May, when he was on patrol with his colleague Roque in the Odiaxere zone, they received a radio communication from the central, telling them to go to P da L, specifically to the OC resort reception where the father of a little girl who had gone missing was. When they were on their way to this place and in the Valverde area, they received a new communication, informing them that this was a very young child and that her father had called again. They continued on their way, now with urgency, heading for the main reception of the resort.
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic18-10.html
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on March 19, 2014, 06:45:16 PM
For the benefit of any new member or reader (give or take a minute or two)
10.00 Kate McCann finds Madeleine gone from the holiday apartment.
10.41 Police are contacted
11.00 First two Portuguese police officers (GNR) arrive at the resort reception.
12.10 The Portuguese criminal police (PJ) arrive at the resort.
I have added the bit in bold above
In the context of this thread, which questions the delay between Madeleine being found missing, and the first phone call to the police is very important
There was a delay of forty minutes between those two events which has never been adequately explained by the tapas group
quote author=John link=topic=3271.msg137608#msg137608 date=1395242198] For the benefit of any new member or reader (give or take a minute or two)
Icabods version with sadies addition:
Quote
10.00 Kate McCann finds Madeleine gone from the holiday apartment.
10.10 Matt Oldfield contacted the main reception to ask them to call the police
10.41 Police are contacted
11.00 First two Portuguese police officers (GNR) arrive at the resort reception.
12.10 The Portuguese criminal police (PJ) arrive at the resort.
And I have added the bit in blue bold above. That gives a fairer, more balanced picture, dont you think Icabod?
So, it is NOT about the Mccanns explaining to YOUR satisfaction the long delay.. They did their bit in 10 minutes, as everyone knows
Instead, why not ask why the delay with the the GNR and OC taking 50 minutes? Do THEY need to explain things to YOUR satisfaction?
10.10 - 11.00 =50 minutes
Own goal again, Icabod.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2014, 07:13:41 PM
'10.10 Matt Oldfield contacted the main reception to ask them to call the police'
Where is the independent verification of this ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 19, 2014, 07:49:16 PM
There are other statements where waiters talk about contacting the police so we cannot say for sure when or how many times this happened. The call to the GNR at 10.41pm might have been the first call to police from the Reception landline but it is probably not the first call.
Mr Receptionist probably realised in hindsight that he didn't help the situation.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 19, 2014, 07:52:55 PM
The police had ben contacted twice, before they responded with urgency So what time was the first call made? Regarding the facts on 3rd May, when he was on patrol with his colleague Roque in the Odiaxere zone, they received a radio communication from the central, telling them to go to P da L, specifically to the OC resort reception where the father of a little girl who had gone missing was. When they were on their way to this place and in the Valverde area, they received a new communication, informing them that this was a very young child and that her father had called again. They continued on their way, now with urgency, heading for the main reception of the resort. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic18-10.html
The first call to the GNR station was at 22:41and was relayed to the nearest patrol car which was in Odiaxere. The second call to the GNR station was at 22:52, at this time the patrol car has already reached Valverde (almost in Praia Da Luz). To hurredly wrap up the Odiaxere diligence and get all the way to Valverde in a total of only 11 minutes is excellent response.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2014, 08:19:44 PM
Stephen...where would you be without those smilies...you would have to actually think of something to say
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 08:23:41 PM
Odiaxere to Valverde is 10.3km and estimated drivetime is 15 minutes. Total time the GNR team took to wrap up the diligence they were on and do that drive, total 11 minutes. The GNR responded fast.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 08:26:18 PM
'10.10 Matt Oldfield contacted the main reception to ask them to call the police'
Where is the independent verification of this ?
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it’s difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten”. 00.51.10 4078 “Quite quick then?” Reply “Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you’ve got to phone the Police, you know, a child’s been taken, and they went, oh no, she’s probably just sort of woken up and he thought she’s probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe you’re right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he’d ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don’t know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe. Erm, then we went back up to, or I went, because I was on my own, I went back up to the, erm, to the apartment and it was just obvious that she wasn’t in the apartment, but we were still sort of just milling about on the street, everybody was just running around just sort of trying to, you know, sort of search nearby roads. And so we, erm, I volunteered to go up to the, erm, I went up to the Millennium Restaurant because it was just one of the routes that I thought she
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post476.html#p476
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
Receptionist states "he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant".
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on March 19, 2014, 08:40:38 PM
You always come up with the goods. Thank you Anna.
I knew that I had read it but I can no longer search the files ; my eyes will not stand it anymore..
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 08:44:34 PM
Receptionist states "he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant".
So many people in a state of confusion I believe This is what you are referring too? They weren't even sure which one informed reception. and since the lady webster was still there, it must have been before Matthew went at 10.10
He served Russell and shortly thereafter, he was alerted to strange movements in the restaurant perimeters. He refers to the movements of two men from said group—David Payne and Matthew, who appeared to be searching the gardens the areas near the bar. The witness went to the esplanade zone and saw that the table that had previously been occupied by nine adults was now occupied only by the older woman, called Dianne Webster. It was also at this time that he saw that Russell’s food was only half eaten and that the others had all finished their dinner. David Payne and Matthew were nervously searching the area.
The witness went to them, he does not remember which one, and asked what was happening. One of them responded to the witness in English stating “GIRL IS MISSING”—that a child had gone missing. After a few moments, around 5 or 10 minutes, he heard screaming from the apartment zone and saw a woman on the balcony of 5 A. He did not understand what she was saying. As it was night, and given the distance from the Tapas bar to the apartment, he was not able to determine if there was someone else next to the woman on the balcony. At that moment his colleague, Joe, met up with him and asked the witness to call the police, and that a child has gone missing and could not be found. Immediately afterwards, Joe left toward the street. He does not know who gave this information to Joe but the witness (or his colleague who believes the witness did so) called the reception asking them to inform the police.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 08:49:23 PM
You always come up with the goods. Thank you Anna.
I knew that I had read it but I can no longer search the files ; my eyes will not stand it anymore..
You are always welcome Sadie, My eyes aren't so good now and blind as a bat without specs , but been into computers for a long time now
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 09:03:58 PM
Link for tapas employee statement posted above by Anna http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm Link for receptionist statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on March 19, 2014, 09:14:04 PM
Link for tapas employee statement posted above by Anna http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm Link for receptionist statement http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Thank you Pegasus, I forgot the links
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 09:45:45 PM
In addition to being told at about 10:10pm by MO, perhaps reception may also have been told at around the same time by a call from an employee at tapas, and possibly also told at around the same time by employees working at evening creche (near reception) ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 19, 2014, 10:11:28 PM
I'll repeat the question I asked earlier in this thread, since it has not been addressed
When Matthew Oldfield returned from the OC reception KNOWING that the police had not been called, did he tell the McCanns ?
Does anyone know ?
Did he tell Kate and Gerry that although he had asked for the police to be called, the receptionist had not done so ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 11:00:18 PM
I'll repeat the question I asked earlier in this thread, since it has not been addressed When Matthew Oldfield returned from the OC reception KNOWING that the police had not been called, did he tell the McCanns ? Does anyone know ? Did he tell Kate and Gerry that although he had asked for the police to be called, the receptionist had not done so ?
I don't know the answer to that. How soon after that did he see the parents? I assume he did tell GM, because later he and GM did go to reception to ask them again to call police (as it happens by then the receptionist had finally made the call to GNR). IMO it is clear that staff of both companies were aware early on that a child was missing, therefore I think focusing all the critisism on the messenger is unfair. Why not pick on the dozens of staff/tourists/locals who were searching earlier than 10:41pm and none of whom called the police?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on March 19, 2014, 11:57:25 PM
I'll repeat the question I asked earlier in this thread, since it has not been addressed
When Matthew Oldfield returned from the OC reception KNOWING that the police had not been called, did he tell the McCanns ?
Does anyone know ?
Did he tell Kate and Gerry that although he had asked for the police to be called, the receptionist had not done so ?
How can anyone answer that question Icab? We only know a tiny fraction of what was being said to oneanother during those chaotic first 10/15 mins - with different people turning up at the scene by the minute.
It could be that the receptionist finally gave Matthew the impression that he would ring the police- and so Matthew then left - believing that is what would happen. It seems to me that the receptionist spoke to other employees first rather than calling the police. Maybe they didn't feel able to do that without authorisation from John Hill, the Hotel Manager.
One thing which is certain IMO is that Gerry believed the police had been called a lot earlier than they apparently were.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 12:08:23 AM
How can anyone answer that question Icab? We only know a tiny fraction of what was being said to oneanother during those chaotic first 10/15 mins - with different people turning up at the scene by the minute.
It could be that the receptionist finally gave Matthew the impression that he would ring the police- and so Matthew then left - believing that is what would happen. It seems to me that the receptionist spoke to other employees first rather than calling the police. Maybe they didn't feel able to do that without authorisation from John Hill, the Hotel Manager.
One thing which is certain IMO is that Gerry believed the police had been called a lot earlier than they apparently were.
Well I don't agree
Matthew Oldfield was 'sent' by the McCanns to perform the most important function necessary at that point ... to get someone to ring the police
So they gave Oldfield the responsibility of ensuring the police were contacted
He comes back from reception knowing that the police have NOT been contacted ... the receptionist having convinced him that Madeleine may have wondered off and a more thorough search should be made before ringing the police
Are we to believe that Matthew Oldfield did not relay that to Kate and Gerry McCann ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 12:16:22 AM
I don't know the answer to that. How soon after that did he see the parents? I assume he did tell GM, because later he and GM did go to reception to ask them again to call police (as it happens by then the receptionist had finally made the call to GNR). IMO it is clear that staff of both companies were aware early on that a child was missing, therefore I think focusing all the critisism on the messenger is unfair. Why not pick on the dozens of staff/tourists/locals who were searching earlier than 10:41pm and none of whom called the police?
I just think that ringing the police immediately ... or demanding that someone else did, there and then , in their presence, was Kate and Gerry McCann's responsibility
They never did that ... either of them
Neither of them spoke to the police on the phone that night
All those calls they made ... and not one of them was to the police
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on March 20, 2014, 12:18:06 AM
So they gave Oldfield the responsibility of ensuring the police were contacted
He comes back from reception knowing that the police have NOT been contacted ... the receptionist having convinced him that Madeleine may have wondered off and a more thorough search should be made before ringing the police
Are we to believe that Matthew Oldfield did not relay that to Kate and Gerry McCann ?
He knew the police had not been called while he was there - but after the discussion he had with the receptionist he could have assumed that the call was going to be made and so left. Why is that so hard to believe - considering the circumstances - ie. panic, stress, anxiety, etc.
Once again hindsight is being used unfairly IMO.
IIRC - The McCanns were not ringing relatives at that time.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on March 20, 2014, 12:21:25 AM
I just think that ringing the police immediately ... or demanding that someone else did, there and then , in their presence, was Kate and Gerry McCann's responsibility
They never did that ... either of them
Neither of them spoke to the police on the phone that night
All those calls they made ... and not one of them was to the police
IIRC According to one of the GNR officers, they were asked to hurry up as the father had rung AGAIN.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 12:28:02 AM
He knew the police had not been called while he was there - but after the discussion he had with the receptionist he could have assumed that the call was going to be made and so left. Why is that so hard to believe - considering the circumstances - ie. panic, stress, anxiety, etc.
Once again hindsight is being used unfairly IMO.
IIRC - The McCanns were not ringing relatives at that time.
That's just not the way Matthew Oldfield's rogatory statement reads Benice
He left the OC reception thinking that the receptionist might be right ... that Madeleine may have wondered off and a more thorough search should be made before contacting the police
He KNEW that the police would not be contacted 'until' the missing child had, at least. been looked for first ... and he accepted that as being reasonable
So did he relay that to Kate and Gerry McCann ?
He MUST have, surely ? ... why would he not ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 20, 2014, 12:32:05 AM
IIRC According to one of the GNR officers, they were asked to hurry up as the father had rung AGAIN.
Well 'recalling' doesn't cut it
Where is the evidence that Gerry McCann spoke to the police on the phone that night ? ... or that he directly asked anyone ( other than Matthew Oldfield ) to do so ?
In her book, even Kate does not claim that either her, or Gerry, ever contacted the police themselves that night
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on March 20, 2014, 12:49:53 AM
Where is the evidence that Gerry McCann spoke to the police on the phone that night ? ... or that he directly asked anyone ( other than Matthew Oldfield ) to do so ?
In her book, even Kate does not claim that either her, or Gerry, ever contacted the police themselves that night
Well Icab you are keen to treat MO's statement as set in stone, but don't accept the statement of the GNR officer. There's no answer to that.
As it happens I don't think Gerry spoke personally to the police - but was standing next to the person who did - and who could speak Portuguese -i.e. the receptionist - instructed by John Hill.
TBH I don't understand what your problem is over this.
(Nigh night )
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on March 20, 2014, 01:03:32 AM
That's just not the way Matthew Oldfield's rogatory statement reads Benice
He left the OC reception thinking that the receptionist might be right ... that Madeleine may have wondered off and a more thorough search should be made before contacting the police
He KNEW that the police would not be contacted 'until' the missing child had, at least. been looked for first ... and he accepted that as being reasonable
So did he relay that to Kate and Gerry McCann ?
He MUST have, surely ? ... why would he not ?
Why are you so obsessed with this Icabod?
It is clear that Matt went by about 10.05 - 10.10 to the main reception to ask them to ring the police. We have no idea whether he informed Gerry at the earliest stage that they had prevaricated a bit. He had given his message and he obviously expected them to do their bit.
you really seem to have it in for Matt. Why?
The main delay appears to have been with the Main Reception staff, but we dont know if they were following OC orders to not ring the police without senior staff permission ... do we?
What is the point that you are trying to get across Icabod?
From previous form, I think it is likely to be against The Mccanns and the other members of the Tapas group. But on what grounds? You seem to be getting at Matt particularly and maybe Gerry. Why? I cant see anything that they have done wrong.
ETA. Very well put Benice
Nigh night
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Eleanor on March 20, 2014, 07:55:43 AM
I just think that ringing the police immediately ... or demanding that someone else did, there and then , in their presence, was Kate and Gerry McCann's responsibility
They never did that ... either of them
Neither of them spoke to the police on the phone that night
All those calls they made ... and not one of them was to the police
Ah. That's it, is it? You want to blame The McCanns for relying on help. As if all of the other blame isn't enough. Let's put the boot in again.
Have you done a survey on how many parents of missing children actually phoned the police themselves?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 04:03:21 AM
Thanks to pathfinder 73 for reminding us of this fact.
And for the final time to everyone Fiona Payne asked Matt to go and call the police at 10.10 (NOT Gerry or Kate!). I don't know where Gerry asking him to do it comes from?
Fiona Payne
"Dave, erm, Matt, Russell and myself split up in four different directions just to do a search, you know, again assuming that she must have just wandered off. Erm, tut, so, you know, I don’t know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did. And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point ‘You go down to main reception and phone the Police’. Erm, and I, I don’t know what Matt, erm, I don’t know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said ‘I’m going to go up to the’, erm, ‘Kate and Gerry’s apartment’."
Matthew Oldfield
"Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police."
Fiona tells Matt to go and phone the police at 10.10 and then goes into 5A where she finds Kate on her own with the twins. But where was Gerry?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 10, 2014, 10:32:07 AM
The McCanns had the police called at 10.05 - 10.10 via their agents Matt and Ocean Club Reception. They were not to know that Reception let them down and failed to make the necessary call at the time.
And Gerry personally went to Reception and this time they did call the Police. I think that was about 10.30 but I am happy to be corrected on that time.
Why do you keep putting this disinformation about, Wspam, that The Mccanns didn't call the police? They did and very early on initially, but were let down by their agent OC Reception.
Additionally OC reception had been warned VERY early on by one of the waiters, now was it Jeronimo? I forget which one.
Maybe they were overloaded with new guests at that time? Dunno ? But what a let down for Madeleine.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 10, 2014, 11:55:32 AM
I have answered similar questions on thta subject asked by YOU, three times in roughly the past 24 hours
As for the time: The McCanns had the police called at 10.05 - 10.10 via their agents Matt and Ocean Club Reception. They were not to know that Reception let them down and failed to make the necessary call at the time.
And Gerry personally went to Reception and this time they did call the Police. I think that was about 10.30 but I am happy to be corrected on that time.
Why do you keep putting this disinformation about, Wspam, that The Mccanns didn't call the police? They did and very early on initially, but were let down by their agent OC Reception.
Additionally OC reception had been warned VERY early on by one of the waiters, now was it Jeronimo? I forget which one.
Maybe they were overloaded with new guests at that time? Dunno ? But what a let down for Madeleine.
It's not disinformation, the fact is that neither parent phoned the police.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2014, 12:37:49 PM
It's not disinformation, the fact is that neither parent phoned the police.
their friends went to reception to ask reception to phone the police...nothing strange about that...McCanns couldn't use their own phones as they didn't speak portuguese
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 10, 2014, 12:59:50 PM
their friends went to reception to ask reception to phone the police...nothing strange about that...McCanns couldn't use their own phones as they didn't speak portuguese
Well they could use their phones & they did when they phoned family members.
Did they even try ringing the police themselves?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 10, 2014, 01:05:01 PM
You don't reckon there would have been a single emergeny operator who spoke a bit of English then.
There may well have been, but the McCanns didn't even try did they.
I don't think its at all strange that reception called the police for them...not strange in the slightest...it would be much easier for reception staff who would be fluent in both English and Portuguese. I find it strange that you keep pushing such an unimportant point
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Keela on August 10, 2014, 04:03:26 PM
I have answered similar questions on thta subject asked by YOU, three times in roughly the past 24 hours
As for the time: They called the police at 10.05 - 10.10 via their agents Matt and Ocean Club Reception. They were not to know that Reception let them down and failed to make the necessary call at the time.
And Gerry personally went to Reception and this time they did call the Police. I think that was about 10.30 but I am happy to be corrected on that time.
Why do you keep putting this disinformation about, Wspam, that The Mccanns didn't call the police? They did and very early on initially, but were let down by their agent OC Reception.
Additionally OC reception had been warned VERY early on by one of the waiters, now was it Jeronimo? I forget which one.
Maybe they were overloaded with new guests at that time? Dunno ? But what a let down for Madeleine.
The police were called twice from the Ocean Club reception, first at 10.41 and second at 10.52. Please see on page 3052 of the PJ Files: http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm. It is known that before the police were called the media were informed about the 'abduction' although nobody could have known what happened. Kate said in several interviews (so also during the German XY programme) the police came very late (approx. 1 hour later) after the calls. That is not true, they arrived about 10 - 15 minutes after the first call. This is quite short because the next police station isin Lagos about 7 km away.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 14, 2014, 07:42:14 PM
Actually the only patrol out that night was dealing with a reported robbery in Odiáxere which was some 13Km or approx 15 minutes away.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2014, 07:47:12 PM
The McCanns had the police called at 10.05 - 10.10 via their agents Matt and Ocean Club Reception. They were not to know that Reception let them down and failed to make the necessary call at the time.
And Gerry personally went to Reception and this time they did call the Police. I think that was about 10.30 but I am happy to be corrected on that time.
Why do you keep putting this disinformation about, Wspam, that The Mccanns didn't call the police? They did and very early on initially, but were let down by their agent OC Reception.
Additionally OC reception had been warned VERY early on by one of the waiters, now was it Jeronimo? I forget which one.
Maybe they were overloaded with new guests at that time? Dunno ? But what a let down for Madeleine.
Do you have verifiable proof of that first sentence.
Hearsay is insufficient.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 14, 2014, 07:56:44 PM
I find it quite puzzling as to why not one of the group felt it necessary to phone the police and especially so as much telephone usage was going on in any event. The old 'they don't speak English' nonsense just doesn't cut it. Many of the staff were bilingual and could have spoken to the police operator but regardless, most operators have some knowledge of English and can transfer any call to their HQ where English speakers work. Additionally, the receptionist at Ocean Club could be telephoned immediately so why send Matt off on a needless hike?
The police were called twice from the Ocean Club reception, first at 10.41 and second at 10.52. Please see on page 3052 of the PJ Files: http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm. It is known that before the police were called the media were informed about the 'abduction' although nobody could have known what happened. Kate said in several interviews (so also during the German XY programme) the police came very late (approx. 1 hour later) after the calls. That is not true, they arrived about 10 - 15 minutes after the first call. This is quite short because the next police station isin Lagos about 7 km away.
03- Processos Vol III Pages 796 to 797 Date: 2007/05/09 Witness Statement Helder Jorge Samaio Luis
Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club
Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn't work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 34.00 shift.
All his work takes place at the main reception.
He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.
He then contacted the head of reception Vítor Santos and informed him of the situation.
He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.
He then left the OC and went home.
He did not see or hear anything suspicious on 3rd May nor on the previous days.
The McCanns had the police called at 10.05 - 10.10 via their agents Matt and Ocean Club Reception. They were not to know that Reception let them down and failed to make the necessary call at the time.
And Gerry personally went to Reception and this time they did call the Police. I think that was about 10.30 but I am happy to be corrected on that time.
Why do you keep putting this disinformation about, Wspam, that The Mccanns didn't call the police? They did and very early on initially, but were let down by their agent OC Reception.
Additionally OC reception had been warned VERY early on by one of the waiters, now was it Jeronimo? I forget which one.
Maybe they were overloaded with new guests at that time? Dunno ? But what a let down for Madeleine.
What an extraordinary notion ...... Sadie. A task they should have performed themselves is delegated and all of a sudden it is someone elses fault it wasn't done? they did not even ask if the task had been performed the most important task to performed at the time; astonishing.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2014, 09:26:49 PM
What an extraordinary notion ....... Sadie. A task they should have performed themselves is delegated and all of a sudden it is someone elses fault it wasn't done? they did not even ask if the task had been performed the most important task to performed at the time; astonishing.
seems a lot of people on here are experts on how to behave when you fear your child has been kidnapped...the astonishing thing is that you all think there is a certain way to behave and anyone who does not comply with your mindset is suspect...astonishing
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 15, 2014, 01:09:25 AM
What an extraordinary notion ........ Sadie. A task they should have performed themselves is delegated and all of a sudden it is someone elses fault it wasn't done? they did not even ask if the task had been performed the most important task to performed at the time; astonishing.
Who says it should be performed by them personally? Do you KNOW EVERYTHING AP ?
FGS, they delegated the task to a doctor, not some seven year old.
At that early stage, they probably thought it better for Kate to look after the twins and be home in case Madeleine returned, with Daddy out searching and calling her name.
Luv from ....... xxxxx ?{)(**
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 15, 2014, 08:20:45 AM
The police were called twice from the Ocean Club reception, first at 10.41 and second at 10.52. Please see on page 3052 of the PJ Files: http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CALLS_TO_GNR.htm.
It is known that before the police were called the media were informed about the 'abduction' although nobody could have known what happened. Kate said in several interviews (so also during the German XY programme) the police came very late (approx. 1 hour later) after the calls. That is not true, they arrived about 10 - 15 minutes after the first call. This is quite short because the next police station isin Lagos about 7 km away.
This is completely untrue. Unless you can prove otherwise I suggest you remove it from your post.
Also - as far as Kate knew at the time - the police had been called by Reception shortly after 10.00. They arrived at around 11.00 - i.e. approx. 1 hr later.
The police did not come from any police station. They were re-directed from another call out.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 15, 2014, 01:00:33 PM
It is not the sort of task I would have delegated unless I were physically incapable of doing it myself as I would wish to ensure it had been done properly. Should it have been essential to delegate I would made good and sure it had been executed properly whether I had delegated to Einstein or Forrest Gump. That is the way I work and I find it astonishing that anyone should think it is abnormal to ensure an important delegated task has been completed satisfactorily.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 15, 2014, 01:18:19 PM
seems a lot of people on here are experts on how to behave when you fear your child has been kidnapped...the astonishing thing is that you all think there is a certain way to behave and anyone who does not comply with your mindset is suspect...astonishing
Rewriting history dave?
They didn't 'fear ' she'd been kidnapped, they knew , according to them.
'I knew straight away she'd err been taken y'know' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw
'They've taken her'
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on August 15, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'. Quite quick then?
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2014, 01:28:01 PM
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'. Quite quick then?
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
..and what time do the reception staff state this happened ???
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 17, 2014, 06:19:29 PM
It is not the sort of task I would have delegated unless I were physically incapable of doing it myself as I would wish to ensure it had been done properly. Should it have been essential to delegate I would made good and sure it had been executed properly whether I had delegated to Einstein or Forrest Gump. That is the way I work and I find it astonishing that anyone should think it is abnormal to ensure an important delegated task has been completed satisfactorily.
What I fail to comprehend is that rather than telephone the police directly on 112, a number that every single Portuguese member of staff knew, it was deemed efficient to send Matt on the long jog to the main reception. If Madeleine was gone and the window open then why piss about? You phone 112 immediately and let a native speaker talk to the police.
In a real abduction it is those first minutes which are crucial.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 17, 2014, 06:26:01 PM
so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police, so I actually went down the route to where she would have gone for Nursery drop off, which his back to the, to the main reception essentially, so I went down that route looking for her at that time and I asked the reception to phone the Police, and that must have been about five past, it's difficult to know what time it was at that time, but maybe about ten past ten, five past ten, ten past ten'. Quite quick then?
Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know, a child's been taken, and they went, oh no, she's probably just sort of woken up and he thought she's probably sort of wandered off or something like that and you thought, yeah, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, erm, can you please, it was sort of, it was kind of, it was sort a weird kind of lack of urgency, you know, he'd ring, but you had to sort and stand there and say, ring now, ring now, so I don't know if they rang at that point, but certainly, erm, you know, I certainly asked them to, about perhaps sort of maybe about ten past ten maybe http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
So it wasn't even the parents who sent Matt to reception, this just gets dafter by the minute.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 17, 2014, 06:50:53 PM
So it wasn't even the parents who sent Matt to reception, this just gets dafter by the minute.
Oh indeed and ...
what about this section "Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know,"
Doctors? Articulate? educated? It could make your eyes bleed!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 06:59:03 PM
So it wasn't even the parents who sent Matt to reception, this just gets dafter by the minute.
Not necessarily. Gerry and Fiona could both have asked him to go. It was pretty chaotic in those first 5/10 minutes with people running around everywhere.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 17, 2014, 07:09:49 PM
Running around in a 'crime scene'?...Hmmm Yes, about that, If they KNEW she was 'taken' why run around at all? why not phone the police straight away?
They all went to the apartment? no one thought 'we better phone the police'? sheesh right!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 07:10:25 PM
what about this section "Reply 'Yeah, sort of pretty much, you know, straight away, erm, I think it was only, but then it was a kind of, it was surreal when you got there, I said, you've got to phone the Police, you know,"
Doctors? Articulate? educated? It could make your eyes bleed!
People do talk like that. He was not making a speech. That is how the unrehearsed spoken word looks when it's put into writing. If he had been perfectly precise with no hesitations etc then no doubt folk would be saying it was obviously learned and rehearsed beforehand,
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 07:20:16 PM
Running around in a 'crime scene'?...Hmmm Yes, about that, If they KNEW she was 'taken' why run around at all? why not phone the police straight away?
They all went to the apartment? no one thought 'we better phone the police'? sheesh right!
It wasn't a crime scene until it was established that Madeleine was neither there nor in the immediate vicinity. How could they establish that without looking? They all behaved like normal people who were suddenly and without any warning catapulted into massive shock. Why anyone would expect them to immediately morph into policemen is a mystery to me.
On the other hand the policemen who then trampled round the crime scene and allowed others to do the same should have known better.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2014, 07:30:06 PM
What I fail to comprehend is that rather than telephone the police directly on 112, a number that every single Portuguese member of staff knew, it was deemed efficient to send Matt on the long jog to the main reception. If Madeleine was gone and the window open then why piss about? You phone 112 immediately and let a native speaker talk to the police.
In a real abduction it is those first minutes which are crucial.
I am unable to give an informed opinion as to how I think parents who discover their child is missing from her bed should react; and I will be eternally grateful never to have been in a similar situation either at home or abroad to qualify me to do so.
I can only imagine, and I don’t really want to.
With benefit of hindsight there are many things we would all do completely differently; but although taking a different approach who could be confident the outcome would be altered.
The police could not have arrived any sooner than they did because they had been called out, some might think conveniently, to another case.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 17, 2014, 07:35:48 PM
What I fail to comprehend is that rather than telephone the police directly on 112, a number that every single Portuguese member of staff knew, it was deemed efficient to send Matt on the long jog to the main reception. If Madeleine was gone and the window open then why piss about? You phone 112 immediately and let a native speaker talk to the police.
In a real abduction it is those first minutes which are crucial.
We have gone through all this this before John.
Few people have travelled to Europe and PT as often as we have, unless they have properties out there.
Most people have no idea what the number of the police is.
My hubby is extremely well travelled and a very clever man, representing his country at senior Professional level, ...... but neither he nor I knew the number for the Police.
Even if they perchance knew the number, they didn't speak PT.
Anyone who frequents hotels knows that in emergency one contacts Reception.
Reception speak both languages fluently , have local knowledge and are there to help the guest in emergency. That is their job.
In an earlier thread, Gilet worked out exactly how far 5A was away from OC main reception and IIRC it was less than 270 metres. For a fit man it could be covered in well under a minute .... and he could be looking on the way there.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 07:55:31 PM
I am unable to give an informed opinion as to how I think parents who discover their child is missing from her bed should react; and I will be eternally grateful never to have been in a similar situation either at home or abroad to qualify me to do so.
I can only imagine, and I don’t really want to.
With benefit of hindsight there are many things we would all do completely differently; but although taking a different approach who could be confident the outcome would be altered.
The police could not have arrived any sooner than they did because they had been called out, some might think conveniently, to another case.
In the past one or two posters have related how they felt when their child went missing - from a few seconds - to a few minutes - before they were reunited. IIRC they were all terrified out of their minds. I too am eternally grateful that I have never experienced that terror . When my son aged 7 fell and broke his arm and I first saw how misshapen his little arm was - I didn't run to help him - or run for help - I simply fainted on the spot.
People only think they know how they would react to severe shock.
And yes - hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 17, 2014, 07:56:56 PM
It wasn't a crime scene until it was established that Madeleine was neither there nor in the immediate vicinity. How could they establish that without looking? They all behaved like normal people who were suddenly and without any warning catapulted into massive shock. Why anyone would expect them to immediately morph into policemen is a mystery to me.
On the other hand the policemen who then trampled round the crime scene and allowed others to do the same should have known better.
Ok this is where the Team Mcs get into Murky waters. Kate said she knew immediately that Maddie was taken! now she has repeated that several times over in interviews on TV.
She also left the two children alone while she RAN to tell the others Maddie was taken
They knew therefore, they knew it was a crime scene!! They are doctors who work with forensic material/patients in contaminated areas in hospitals for a living, what do you think they forgot in their training? about contamination? and what about a conversation like " we will go get the twins you go to reception and get police"- was there no waiters or multilingual staff in that Restaurant? What is it about this scenario that you think is not the responsibility of Middle class Educated Doctors!
People do talk like that. He was not making a speech. That is how the unrehearsed spoken word looks when it's put into writing. If he had been perfectly precise with no hesitations etc then no doubt folk would be saying it was obviously learned and rehearsed beforehand,
People talk about war memories of friends and comrades who dies over 50 years ago- they give clear details of what happened...these articulate doctors can barely remember anything or much about anything the day Maddie disappeared on the day (grabbing Maddies colouring book to collaborate stories) Or what happened a few months after she disappeared!
Ppft!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2014, 07:59:34 PM
Ok this is where the Team Mcs get into Murky waters. Kate said she knew immediately that Maddie was taken! now she has repeated that several times over in interviews on TV.
She also left the two children alone while she RAN to tell the others Maddie was taken
They knew therefore, they knew it was a crime scene!! They are doctors who work with forensic material/patients in contaminated areas in hospitals for a living, what do you think they forgot in their training? about contamination? and what about a conversation like " we will go get the twins you go to reception and get police"- was there no waiters or multilingual staff in that Restaurant? What is it about this scenario that you think is not the responsibility of Middle class Educated Doctors!
People talk about war memories of friends and comrades who dies over 50 years ago- they give clear details of what happened...these articulate doctors can barely remember anything or much about anything the day Maddie disappeared on the day (grabbing Maddies colouring book to collaborate stories) Or what happened a few months after she disappeared!
Ppft!
I think you have nailed that vital piece of evidence that will bring the mccanns to court
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 17, 2014, 08:14:29 PM
It certainly is evidence that the parents are guilty of facilitating the events which led to the disappearance of their daughter! I am glad we agree on that! Whether or not they go to court we ALL KNOW that happened- they are guilty of bringing about this situation!
One of the many reasons for people disliking them is they are free to enjoy life-well except when they go to court to get everyone else into trouble for their mistakes!- the get all upset and everything! in fact they get more upset than having their daughter 'abducted'.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 08:18:07 PM
Ok this is where the Team Mcs get into Murky waters. Kate said she knew immediately that Maddie was taken! now she has repeated that several times over in interviews on TV.
She also left the two children alone while she RAN to tell the others Maddie was taken
They knew therefore, they knew it was a crime scene!! They are doctors who work with forensic material/patients in contaminated areas in hospitals for a living, what do you think they forgot in their training? about contamination? and what about a conversation like " we will go get the twins you go to reception and get police"- was there no waiters or multilingual staff in that Restaurant? What is it about this scenario that you think is not the responsibility of Middle class Educated Doctors!
People talk about war memories of friends and comrades who dies over 50 years ago- they give clear details of what happened...these articulate doctors can barely remember anything or much about anything the day Maddie disappeared on the day (grabbing Maddies colouring book to collaborate stories) Or what happened a few months after she disappeared!
Ppft!
Kate knew deep down in her heart that Madeleine had been taken. But that would not stop her hoping and praying that she was wrong. We all hope for miracles at certain times in our lives. I certainly have.
The idea that doctors should not have the same feelings or reactions as other parents is ludicrous IMO. Do you apply the same principle to firefighters? Do you think a fireman arriving at his own house to find it ablaze with his own children inside should be expected to behave differently to any other father - just because he was a fireman and used to it. Nonsense.
If you really think anyone can answer questions for several hours at a time without hesitation, or repetition, or any of the ums and ahhs that we all use when talking to another person - then IMO you should try it yourself and see how long you get before you do exactly the same.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2014, 08:23:19 PM
It certainly is evidence that the parents are guilty of facilitating the events which led to the disappearance of their daughter! I am glad we agree on that! Whether or not they go to court we ALL KNOW that happened- they are guilty of bringing about this situation!
One of the many reasons for people disliking them is they are free to enjoy life-well except when they go to court to get everyone else into trouble for their mistakes!- the get all upset and everything! in fact they get more upset than having their daughter 'abducted'.
but many people like them
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 17, 2014, 08:36:37 PM
Kate knew deep down in her heart that Madeleine had been taken. But that would not stop her hoping and praying that she was wrong. We all hope for miracles at certain times in our lives. I certainly have.
The idea that doctors should not have the same feelings or reactions as other parents is ludicrous IMO. Do you apply the same principle to firefighters? Do you think a fireman arriving at his own house to find it ablaze with his own children inside should be expected to behave differently to any other father - just because he was a fireman and used to it. Nonsense.
If you really think anyone can answer questions for several hours at a time without hesitation, or repetition, or any of the ums and ahhs that we all use when talking to another person - then IMO you should try it yourself and see how long you get before you do exactly the same.
Firefighters? I am sure they would know exactly what to do to save their children. Are you implying firefighters would leave their children alone in a locked apartment?
I have been in a situation myself where quick thinking was needed to save someones life, twice. I have also been a witness in a very long,harrowing, distressing trial. I recalled over and over to many lawyers and prosecutors and senior police what I saw and what I did. I never flinched once! NOT ONCE and I did not know the criminals or was familiar with the area, as I was on holiday. So If I could do it for strangers, then surely a family member/friend can recall the last few hours of a child?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 17, 2014, 08:44:04 PM
Firefighters? I am sure they would know exactly what to do to save their children. Are you implying firefighters would leave their children alone in a locked apartment?
I have been in a situation myself where quick thinking was needed to save someones life, twice. I have also been a witness in a very long,harrowing, distressing trial. I recalled over and over to many lawyers and prosecutors and senior police what I saw and what I did. I never flinched once! NOT ONCE and I did not know the criminals or was familiar with the area, as I was on holiday. So If I could do it for strangers, then surely a family member/friend can recall the last few hours of a child?
In which case you are unique. Well done.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 17, 2014, 08:51:04 PM
I am not unique, Many, many people in public service live with difficult and dangerous situations. The police get a lot of phone calls from people in trouble they dial 999 you would not believe how busy they are... And doctors are well aware of timescales for people having heart attacks, to phone 999 emergency..... oh were you being sarcastic aw see you bad!
But thank you for recognizing just some my good qualities..if only I had thought of setting up a fund!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 09:04:14 PM
Firefighters? I am sure they would know exactly what to do to save their children. Are you implying firefighters would leave their children alone in a locked apartment?
I have been in a situation myself where quick thinking was needed to save someones life, twice. I have also been a witness in a very long,harrowing, distressing trial. I recalled over and over to many lawyers and prosecutors and senior police what I saw and what I did. I never flinched once! NOT ONCE and I did not know the criminals or was familiar with the area, as I was on holiday. So If I could do it for strangers, then surely a family member/friend can recall the last few hours of a child?
You implied that Doctors should behave, feel and react differently to every other parent in the world -when faced with a tragedy involving one of their own children - just because they are doctors. I don't believe that a person's profession/trade should be expected to affect their level of fear and anxiety when it comes to facing a catastrophe involving their own child. They are still parents first and foremost.
IMO it would be a million times easier to cope with other people's tragedies than those affecting my own loved ones. You appear to have the opposite view. Well there you go - we are all different.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2014, 11:18:19 PM
You implied that Doctors should behave, feel and react differently to every other parent in the world -when faced with a tragedy involving one of their own children - just because they are doctors. I don't believe that a person's profession/trade should be expected to affect their level of fear and anxiety when it comes to facing a catastrophe involving their own child. They are still parents first and foremost.
IMO it would be a million times easier to cope with other people's tragedies than those affecting my own loved ones. You appear to have the opposite view. Well there you go - we are all different.
Perhaps it was when their training did kick in and they tried to make sense of what had happened that difficulties were cemented with the PJ; there certainly was a culture clash and total misunderstanding of reactions; for example when the simple request for a priest was misinterpreted as acknowledgement that Madeleine was dead.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 17, 2014, 11:45:11 PM
Perhaps it was when their training did kick in and they tried to make sense of what had happened that difficulties were cemented with the PJ; there certainly was a culture clash and total misunderstanding of reactions; for example when the simple request for a priest was misinterpreted as acknowledgement that Madeleine was dead.
I agree. The language barrier and the differences in culture caused massive problems for the McCanns. Problems which many sceptics completely disregard. IMO things would have been completely different if those obstacles had not existed.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 18, 2014, 06:31:24 AM
I agree. The language barrier and the differences in culture caused massive problems for the McCanns. Problems which many sceptics completely disregard. IMO things would have been completely different if those obstacles had not existed.
B*llocks.
All they had to do was pick up the phone & call the police.
They didn't.
Mrs Fenn offered the use of her phone, they declined.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2014, 11:37:25 AM
I agree. The language barrier and the differences in culture caused massive problems for the McCanns. Problems which many sceptics completely disregard. IMO things would have been completely different if those obstacles had not existed.
Ahhh
The language and culture barrier. How different things might have been without these 8(8-))
Unable to phone the police themselves, but they had OC reception, who unfortunately let them down
They couldn't just pick up the phone and ring the police with anything that came to mind that might help ... as they would have been able to in the UK... or for reassuring updates as to progress.
Having to sign documents that were in a foreign language or had been double translated, with all the errors potentially incumbant in that process.
Not understanding the PT legal process
Initially, being unable to fully pick up the vibes that the PJ were no longer searching for a living Madeleine
Then all the translations that had a bias, even an agenda one wonders? They couldn't translate, they didn't know what was genuine and what was false. How appalling to have disinformation put out and not even know it.
This is just a rather weak assessment of all the extra problems they must have encountered though not speaking or understanding the language; not understanding the culture; not understanding the legal system etc.
Add to these the worry of problems back home like their garden, looking after pets, their jobs etc etc..
All this on top of their major worry of trying to get Madeleine back.
It is mind boggling.
And there must have been difficulties galore that I cannot even begin to think of.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 18, 2014, 11:46:42 AM
The language and culture barrier. How different things might have been without these 8(8-))
Unable to phone the police themselves, but they had OC reception, who unfortunately let them down
They couldn't just pick up the phone and ring the police with anything that came to mind that might help ... as they would have been able to in the UK... or for reassuring updates as to progress.
Having to sign documents that were in a foreign language or had been double translated, with all the errors potentially incumbant in that process.
Not understanding the PT legal process
Initially, being unable to fully pick up the vibes that the PJ were no longer searching for a living Madeleine
Then all the translations that had a bias, even an agenda one wonders? They couldn't translate, they didn't know what was genuine and what was false. How appalling to have disinformation put out and not even know it.
This is just a rather weak assessment of all the extra problems they must have encountered though not speaking or understanding the language; not understanding the culture; not understanding the legal system etc.
Add to these the worry of problems back home like their garden, looking after pets, their jobs etc etc..
All this on top of their major worry of trying to get Madeleine back.
It is mind boggling.
And there must have been difficulties galore that I cannot even begin to think of.
Unable to phone the police themselves
Did they actually, physically try ringing the police, themselves?
No, they didn't.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: jassi on August 18, 2014, 11:48:57 AM
...to tell them that it was paedo gangs wot dunnit.
I'm still not sure how Mr McCann knew that & why he phoned a friend with that information, rather than telling someone in, lets say, the country he was in, for instance, maybe the police even.....
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2014, 12:22:56 PM
...to tell them that it was paedo gangs wot dunnit.
I'm still not sure how Mr McCann knew that & why he phoned a friend with that information, rather than telling someone in, lets say, the country he was in, for instance, maybe the police even.....
Of course after the initial shock and the search, they would unhappily suspect/ know stolen. The window and shutters were open. Someone had been there.
The people who steal oretty little blond girls are either Kidnappers for ramsome or Paedophiles {or sex traffickers, also for paedophiles]
As the Mccanns were not rich, they could rule the first out
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 18, 2014, 12:34:58 PM
Window open, child missing, we are not rich = it was paedos wot dunnit, but lets not bother even trying to call the police.
Nonsense.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on August 18, 2014, 12:39:07 PM
Of course after the initial shock and the search, they would unhappily suspect/ know stolen. The window and shutters were open. Someone had been there.
The people who steal oretty little blond girls are either Kidnappers for ramsome or Paedophiles {or sex traffickers, also for paedophiles]
As the Mccanns were not rich, they could rule the first out
This is what Graham McKenzie heard :
'He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.'
Paedophile gangs ? Now unless Mr McCann had absolute knowledge that paedophile GANGS did indeed operate in a sleepy village like PDL why was he terrifying his sister but relaying to her such a unproven assumption barely an hour after Madeleine had been discovered missing ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 18, 2014, 12:44:20 PM
Window open, child missing, we are not rich = it was paedos wot dunnit, but lets not bother even trying to call the police.
Nonsense.
Spammy, when are you going to give it a rest. That is about the twentieth time, virtually in a row, that you have said the same inane thing.
They did call the police via their agents, the first being a friend and also a sensible man, a doctor.
OC Receptioin badly let them down initially.
The police were later called when Gerry personally went to ask reception to call them again
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 18, 2014, 12:46:21 PM
Could it be that their anxiety over their inadequate and sloppy child care arrangements presented a problem for them from the outset and it was this and this alone which prevented them from immediately contacting the police???
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 18, 2014, 12:52:14 PM
'He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.'
Paedophile gangs ? Now unless Mr McCann had absolute knowledge that paedophile GANGS did indeed operate in a sleepy village like PDL why was he terrifying his sister but relaying to her such a unproven assumption barely an hour after Madeleine had been discovered missing ?
You are ignoring the fact that Graham McKenzie said Gerry was talking ''along the lines of....'' and so that was his own interpretation of what Gerry had said - and certainly not Gerry's own words.
However, what is strange about Gerry thinking his daughter may have been taken by paedaphiles? That is usually what has happened to little girls who are abducted by strangers. It was the first thing I thought of when I first heard the news - and so did everyone else who I spoke to about it.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 18, 2014, 12:56:25 PM
Few people have travelled to Europe and PT as often as we have, unless they have properties out there.
Most people have no idea what the number of the police is.
My hubby is extremely well travelled and a very clever man, representing his country at senior Professional level, ...... but neither he nor I knew the number for the Police.
Even if they perchance knew the number, they didn't speak PT.
Anyone who frequents hotels knows that in emergency one contacts Reception.
Reception speak both languages fluently , have local knowledge and are there to help the guest in emergency. That is their job.
In an earlier thread, Gilet worked out exactly how far 5A was away from OC main reception and IIRC it was less than 270 metres. For a fit man it could be covered in well under a minute .... and he could be looking on the way there.
Excuse excuse excuses and more excuses. A load of baloney Sadie. I don't accept for a moment that seasoned travellers abroad don't know what the international emergency telephone number is and in any event all they needed to do was to ask a local, a waiter, another guest.
They failed to immediately phone police in a situation where urgency was a determining factor. They failed Madeleine for the second time that night.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on August 18, 2014, 01:00:54 PM
You are ignoring the fact that Graham McKenzie said Gerry was talking ''along the lines of....'' and so that was his own interpretation of what Gerry had said - and certainly not Gerry's own words.
However, what is strange about Gerry thinking his daughter may have been taken by paedaphiles? That is usually what has happened to little girls who are abducted by strangers. It was the first thing I thought of when I first heard the news - and so did everyone else who I spoke to about it.
Mr McKenzie was most specific about 'paedophile gangs '. Now I can understand that the McCanns may think Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile but a paedophile gang ?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 18, 2014, 01:04:49 PM
I could be wrong but the impression I get from having read all the staff statements is that the tapas group thought they were better than the ' dumb Portuguese'. Does anyone else get that impression?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on August 18, 2014, 01:06:21 PM
I could be wrong but the impression I get from having read all the staff statements is that the tapas group thought they were better than the ' dumb Portuguese'. Does anyone else get that impression?
Absolutely Angelo.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2014, 01:08:14 PM
I could be wrong but the impression I get from having read all the staff statements is that the tapas group thought they were better than the ' dumb Portuguese'. Does anyone else get that impression?
Not only do I not get that impression; I'm not aware of anything to even suggest it ...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2014, 01:10:06 PM
Did they actually, physically try ringing the police, themselves?
No, they didn't.
In the middle ages they had profound discussion about how many angels could dance on a pin head; the modern equivalent would appear to be discussion about how many phone calls it takes to get police to respond to a call reporting a missing child and whether or not a call from the parents makes the police arrive any sooner than the call from a responsible adult tasked with the responsibility.
If the parents had dashed off immediately to reception to make the call ~ the cry would be ~ "why weren't they out searching?" ~ whoops a minute; isn't that where we came in?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2014, 01:22:10 PM
I could be wrong but the impression I get from having read all the staff statements is that the tapas group thought they were better than the ' dumb Portuguese'. Does anyone else get that impression?
Absolutely Angelo.
There has always been a supercilious attitude amongst them.
Largely a case it seems of 'Doctors think they know best'.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 18, 2014, 01:22:31 PM
Not only do I not get that impression; I'm not aware of anything to even suggest it ...
You obviously haven't read all the staff statements recently or you would see that they were given the cold shoulder when they offered to help. Even poor old Mrs Fenn got a sharp rebuke..
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 18, 2014, 01:24:48 PM
In the middle ages they had profound discussion about how many angels could dance on a pin head; the modern equivalent would appear to be discussion about how many phone calls it takes to get police to respond to a call reporting a missing child and whether or not a call from the parents makes the police arrive any sooner than the call from a responsible adult tasked with the responsibility.
If the parents had dashed off immediately to reception to make the call ~ the cry would be ~ "why weren't they out searching?" ~ whoops a minute; isn't that where we came in?
They didn't need to dash off to reception to phone the police, they had phones, which they were quite able to use, but they didn't even bother trying to phone the police themselves, did they?
Even though Kate knew straight away she'd, err, been taken, y'know (by paedophiles).
They've taken her!!
Call a priest!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 18, 2014, 01:25:30 PM
There has always been a supercilious attitude amongst them.
Largely a case it seems of 'Doctors think they know best'.
It was a case of them versus the local yokels imo. I believe they were more afraid of being blamed for their inadequate childcare arrangements in a country which takes a dim view of such conduct. %£&)**#
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2014, 01:33:27 PM
It was a case of them versus the local yokels imo. I believe they were more afraid of being blamed for their inadequate childcare arrangements in a country which takes a dim view of such conduct. %£&)**#
Yes Angelo.
In most cases a family holiday means precisely that, and that includes meal times, and likewise young children are taken care of, and not left to their own devices.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2014, 01:45:30 PM
In most cases a family holiday means precisely that, and that includes meal times, and likewise young children are taken care of, and not left to their own devices.
Making it up as you go along there; remind us all, what were the Mark Warner nursery staff employed to do? ... not too sure it involved leaving children to 'their own devices'.
IMO something decidedly odd about people who can allow a vendetta to colour their thoughts over a period of seven years.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 18, 2014, 01:47:22 PM
Mr McKenzie was most specific about 'paedophile gangs '. Now I can understand that the McCanns may think Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile but a paedophile gang ?
We don't know what Gerry's exact words were - or the entire conversation for that matter. Just bits that someone thought they overheard and were generalising about. That is what the words ''along the lines of....'' mean. IOW this is not a specific word for word repetition of what was said.
What does it matter whether he said paedaphiles or a paedaphile gang - in the scheme of things? What difference does it make to anything? Sorry Faith but I think you are nitpicking.
IMO Another example of picking over every single word the McCanns utter - just trying to find fault.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 18, 2014, 01:54:10 PM
We don't know what Gerry's exact words were - or the entire conversation for that matter. Just bits that someone thought they overheard and were generalising about. That is what the words ''along the lines of....'' mean. IOW this is not a specific word for word repetition of what was said.
What does it matter whether he said paedaphiles or a paedaphile gang - in the scheme of things? What difference does it make to anything? Sorry Faith but I think you are nitpicking.
IMO Another example of picking over every single word the McCanns utter - just trying to find fault.
thought they overheard
He was 3 metres away from him ffs!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2014, 01:57:24 PM
Making it up as you go along there; remind us all, what were the Mark Warner nursery staff employed to do? ... not too sure it involved leaving children to 'their own devices'.
IMO something decidedly odd about people who can allow a vendetta to colour their thoughts over a period of seven years.
Don't be foolish.
Now remind us all of all the facilities the mccanns declined and offered by Mark Warner, including a babysitting service.
As to a vendetta, there is nothing vaguely comparable to that conducted by the mccann supporters on the people that don't believe the mccanns story.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 18, 2014, 02:04:46 PM
In the middle ages they had profound discussion about how many angels could dance on a pin head; the modern equivalent would appear to be discussion about how many phone calls it takes to get police to respond to a call reporting a missing child and whether or not a call from the parents makes the police arrive any sooner than the call from a responsible adult tasked with the responsibility.
If the parents had dashed off immediately to reception to make the call ~ the cry would be ~ "why weren't they out searching?" ~ whoops a minute; isn't that where we came in?
And no doubt if the McCanns had called the police themselves and ignored reception they would be accused of deliberately delaying MW from setting their Missing Child protocol into action.
Let's face it - no matter what the McCanns do - it's always wrong in some people's eyes.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Every step of the way.
Inexplicable.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2014, 02:10:09 PM
And no doubt if the McCanns had called the police themselves and ignored reception they would be accused of deliberately delaying MW from setting their Missing Child protocol into action.
Let's face it - no matter what the McCanns do - it's always wrong in some people's eyes.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Every step of the way.
Inexplicable.
..and who is responsible for the inaction/actions of the mccanns ?
Ah yes the mccanns. 8)-)))
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on August 18, 2014, 02:21:02 PM
We don't know what Gerry's exact words were - or the entire conversation for that matter. Just bits that someone thought they overheard and were generalising about. That is what the words ''along the lines of....'' mean. IOW this is not a specific word for word repetition of what was said.
What does it matter whether he said paedaphiles or a paedaphile gang - in the scheme of things? What difference does it make to anything? Sorry Faith but I think you are nitpicking.
IMO Another example of picking over every single word the McCanns utter - just trying to find fault.
Context matters. If Gerry said Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile I would find his assumption responsible in the circumstances but that he said a paedophile gang, and this is not a generalisation on Mr McKenzie's part, is a suspicious claim when uttered so soon after the disappearance whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 18, 2014, 02:42:25 PM
Context matters. If Gerry said Madeleine had been abducted by a paedophile I would find his assumption responsible in the circumstances but that he said a paedophile gang, and this is not a generalisation on Mr McKenzie's part, is a suspicious claim when uttered so soon after the disappearance whether you like it or not.
why is "abducted by a peadophile" responsible (sic) but "abducted by a paedophile gang" suspicious? What does it make you suspect and why?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on August 18, 2014, 02:59:35 PM
It's the specificness of it. Much like Kate's 'couple' when talking to Yvonne Martin.
What would be their motive for trying to pin it on a couple or a gang then, in your view? You'd have thought they would have got JT to see double if the plan was to pin it on more than one individual wouldn't you?!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 18, 2014, 04:31:17 PM
Getting back on topic, the first few minutes in any child abduction is crucial. If what we are asked to believe about the window and shutters is true then the abduction was real and should have been dealt with in a completely different manner to what actually occurred.
Mark Warner staff had a missing child protocol but this was not a missing child, this was an abducted child. The police should have been called instantly and told that a child had been abducted.
On the other hand, the police had no resources to deal with this sort of event given its rarity.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on August 18, 2014, 05:14:37 PM
It's the specificness of it. Much like Kate's 'couple' when talking to Yvonne Martin.
Do you believe that every word Kate spoke to Yvonne Martin was related back by her to the police? Not a chance. Once again we do not know the whole conversation or the context in which things were said. Thinking her daughter may have been taken by people who wanted a child is just one of the possibilities which would go through Kate's mind at that time - what is wrong with that?
You seem to think that it is only the words recalled by YM that were actually spoken by Kate during that 'meeting' This is plainly nonsense. Whole loads of stuff will have been left out. People are not tape recorders.
Just as nonsensical as believing that the only people who saw Madeleine on the 3rd were the people who have made statements mentioning that fact. Loads of other people may have seen her - they just haven't felt the need to come forward to tell anyone - as it has never been in question. And yet IIRC there are people who claim that she died before the 3rd May - on the grounds that there is only one independent witness who saw her alive on the 3rd - and she has been bribed.
Where is their common sense?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 19, 2014, 01:52:37 PM
There will always be people who thought they saw something but didn't and police have to be extremely careful not to get side tracked by them.
I have never understood why Gerry went out looking for Madeleine without first contacting the authorities if he knew she had been abducted. If I had been in that situation I would have grabbed my mobile and phoned the emergency number while searching outside just in case she had been abandoned by her abductor. In situations like that you have to cover all the bases.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 19, 2014, 03:12:28 PM
There will always be people who thought they saw something but didn't and police have to be extremely careful not to get side tracked by them.
I have never understood why Gerry went out looking for Madeleine without first contacting the authorities if he knew she had been abducted. If I had been in that situation I would have grabbed my mobile and phoned the emergency number while searching outside just in case she had been abandoned by her abductor. In situations like that you have to cover all the bases.
Remind me, how many people offered to phone the police and were told not to bother? A strange state of affairs?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: misty on August 27, 2014, 08:54:02 PM
Whoever was responsible, surely you would have welcomed a better police response for a missing child than a few GNR officers. The GNR celebrations may not have had any influence on the sequence of events but all local situations should be taken into consideration, right down to the windspeed & visibility.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2014, 10:22:40 PM
Whoever was responsible, surely you would have welcomed a better police response for a missing child than a few GNR officers. The GNR celebrations may not have had any influence on the sequence of events but all local situations should be taken into consideration, right down to the windspeed & visibility.
How many mobile phones did the T9 group take to PDL? Answer = exactly 8. What % of those 8 knew the number 112? Let's say 50%. So that is 4 intelligent people with a mobile phone who know the number 112. How many of them phoned 112 in the first 10 minutes? 0. In the first 70 minutes? 0. And BTW the 112 call centres in Portugal do have English speaking operators available. And 112 works even if you have no credit.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2014, 10:43:30 PM
How many mobile phones did the T9 group take to PDL? Answer = exactly 8. What % of those 8 knew the number 112? Let's say 50%. So that is 4 intelligent people with a mobile phone who know the number 112. How many of them phoned 112 in the first 10 minutes? 0. In the first 70 minutes? 0. And BTW the 112 call centres in Portugal do have English speaking operators available. And 112 works even if you have no credit.
Numbers of Mobile phones .... OK, maybe
Knowing the emergency number 112 ..... 50% What rubbish !
What a gross assumption to make Pegasus. I am losing my faith in you, making sweeping and silly statements like that.
You guys really are trying to make something of nothing by twisting facts.
Why?
There has to be a reason
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on August 27, 2014, 10:49:15 PM
Numbers of Mobile phones .... OK, maybe Knowing the emergency number 112 ..... 50% What rubbish ! What a gross assumption to make Pegasus. I am losing my faith in you, making sweeping and silly statements like that. You guys really are trying to make something of nothing by twisting facts. Why? There has to be a reason
Maybe 50% was an over estimate. I now found this source suggesting that only 10% of Brits know the 112 number. http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/press/press_releases/2010/pr1010_en.htm However I would have expected well educated professionals, most of whom had travelled in Europe before, to score better than a poor 10%, or better than 0 out of 8. The point is - even if there was some distraction of GNR, it would only become relevant after 2242, because non-one phoned the GNR until then.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2014, 11:12:48 PM
How many mobile phones did the T9 group take to PDL? Answer = exactly 8. What % of those 8 knew the number 112? Let's say 50%. So that is 4 intelligent people with a mobile phone who know the number 112. How many of them phoned 112 in the first 10 minutes? 0. In the first 70 minutes? 0. And BTW the 112 call centres in Portugal do have English speaking operators available. And 112 works even if you have no credit.
If you were out and about in a group of say six people and an incident occurred necessitating a call to emergency services ... how many calls do you think should be made?
Do you think all six people should call?
Think about it logically as you usually do ... one call ... one emergency co-ordinator who will take all necessary information and alert the appropriate authorities using proper procedure and protocols.
The caller may even be kept online to give updates or provide more information as a situation develops or to be given directions on appropriate action to take until emergency services arrive.
IMO it takes one caller to register an emergency and give details … if six call at the same time about the same incident in the full knowledge that all six are doing so that is nothing short of lunacy. It is totally unnecessary and in the case of a missing child one call should be all it takes for priority procedures to be implemented.
This assertion that everyone in the McCann party should have made an emergency call is arrant nonsense and is merely another stick to beat Madeleine’s parents with, but in my opinion it is a particularly ludicrous one.
It only takes ONE person to make a call to set the whole emergency procedure in motion. ONE.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2014, 11:24:54 PM
I agree that only one call is required. Also that most or all of the group were under the impression that the important one call had been made, at about 2215 from a landline. But as it happened, probably through no fault of the group, that call in fact hadn't been made, therefore that 42 minutes part of the delay (from 2200 to 2242) was entirely due to that call not being made, and nothing to do with GNR staffing levels or cunning distraction plans.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on August 27, 2014, 11:31:33 PM
Maybe 50% was an over estimate. I now found this source suggesting that only 10% of Brits know the 112 number.http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/press/press_releases/2010/pr1010_en.htm However I would have expected well educated professionals, most of whom had travelled in Europe before, to score better than a poor 10%, or better than 0 out of 8. The point is - even if there was some distraction of GNR, it would only become relevant after 2242, because non-one phoned the GNR until then.
I now found this source suggesting that only 10% of Brits know the 112 number.
Yep and I bet that most of that number have a place of their own in Europe ... or family over there that they visit.
Both hubby and I are pretty well educated. Both of us are well travelled in Europe, he particularly so.... but neither of us knew the European emergency number.
When taking packaage deals we always stayed in 4* or better hotels with a 24 hour reception. Reception are there to assist with any problems, they speak the language and are trained to know how to help.
When touring, we stayed anywhere that looked OK, and these places did NOT usually have 24 hour reception. However when touring we always carried The Michelin Guide (a mini travellers bible). We have driven many thousands of miles in Europe ... and elsewhere in the World, but never had need to call the emergency services ... but as we were touring , we had it on us
But not at package Hotels. We never took Michelin Guide. There we relied totally on Reception.
What makes you think that the Mccanns should be any different to us, and most British holiday makers?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2014, 11:56:12 PM
I agree that only one call is required. Also that most or all of the group were under the impression that the important one call had been made, at about 2215 from a landline. But as it happened, probably through no fault of the group, that call in fact hadn't been made, therefore that 42 minutes part of the delay (from 2200 to 2242) was entirely due to that call not being made, and nothing to do with GNR staffing levels or cunning distraction plans.
If the group believed the call had been made at 2215 absolutely no blame at all can be attached to them if the call they understood had been made was not.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Carana on August 28, 2014, 03:18:45 PM
Reading through this...
In the circumstances, I don't find anyone particularly remiss.
The McCann group took around 10 minutes to register that she really had gone and to organise a quick local search. When she was obviously nowhere to be found, Matt went to the reception. The receptionist set the missing child protocol in motion (which must have taken a bit of time to get through to those responsible and to provide any further info). The police were called roughly 1/2 hour later when the initial OC team couldn't find her either.
Up until then, people were just hoping that she'd wandered off on her own, or if she had been abducted, she could have been dumped alive nearby, but might also be in a potentially dangerous situation, e.g., fallen into the swimming pool, a ditch, had been run over or whatever else.
If there are only one or two patrols in Lagos at that time of year and night (it wasn't yet the summer season), then organising a local search as a priority seems to make sense to me. In context, it must have been a frantic 20-30 minutes, with people with strange accents in a state of anxiety trying to communicate.
To OC's credit, the protocol was implemented very quickly with numerous people out searching. I'm not convinced that ringing 112 in the initial minutes would be a natural reaction in a foreign country with a receptionist who knew where they lived, understood English, could get a search party togther and ring the police on their behalf.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on August 29, 2014, 08:05:52 PM
If the group believed the call had been made at 2215 absolutely no blame at all can be attached to them if the call they understood had been made was not.
Matt knew the call hadn't been made so is there any record in the files that he reported this back to the McCanns after he had returned to OC Garden after his tortuous route around PdL?
Another opportunity for the parents and anyone else who knew what was going on to make that call and surprisingly, nobody felt the need to do so?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2014, 09:29:21 PM
There is a reason. The McCanns and their friends actions on the night of May the third were suspicious.
Only in your opinion....I don't find anything suspicious re their behaviour
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2014, 09:39:10 PM
So getting back on topic...what time was the first call made to the police...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2014, 09:48:38 PM
Gerry's statement....
. Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, while at the same time they contacted the authorities, that would later appear.
so Gerry says the authorities were contacted immediately
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 29, 2014, 09:54:34 PM
. Immediately, the group headed for the club and searched across all the facilities, swimming pool, tennis etc., as well as in the apartment, with the help of Ocean Club employees, while at the same time they contacted the authorities, that would later appear.
so Gerry says the authorities were contacted immediately
They weren't though.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2014, 10:07:33 PM
if Gerry said they were that's good enough for me and SY
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 01, 2014, 08:37:36 PM
Phoning the police was not done as soon as the 'abductor' stole Maddie! Kate ran to the tapas bar ( it was in the garden, why not just shout) No one shouted phone the police to the tapas staff? really oh ok then.
The media, the family all got a phone call. to get in there with the OMG our daughter has been abducted by a criminal- look they came through a window... it was jemmied and we were just like, sitting like, what it is like sitting in the garden, and we could see the flat from where we were sitting...
Hmmm
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: xtina on September 01, 2014, 08:57:59 PM
What we must never loose sight of, are the "Jemmied Shutters" that weren't.
The cornerstone on which the McCann's built their argument for "stranger abduction" was the jemmied shutters.
No jemmied shutters,........... no abduction. It's that simple.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2014, 09:15:17 PM
if Gerry said they were that's good enough for me and SY
No it's not because nobody knew where Gerry was after the alarm. We have Russ saying that Gerry said let's all split up and find her and he's disappeared. His only alibi is Kate saying he was examining shutters but when Dianne Webster got there only minutes later she said Kate was alone - No Gerry! Fiona sent Matt to call the police around 10:10. Matt didn't see Gerry until 10:40 when the police were called with John Hill.
"The question being asked about the people that were inside the apartment of McCANN at that time, the witness said that the McCANN couple were present (although on the first occasion she had no recollection of having seen GERRY)" (DW Statement)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 02, 2014, 10:56:07 AM
There is no doubt that failure to contact the police immediately was a crucial factor in the outcome of this case. They allegedly found the children's bedroom window wide open and the shutter up and yet not one of them had the wit to call 112. Unbelievable!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 02, 2014, 04:05:25 PM
There is no doubt that failure to contact the police immediately was a crucial factor in the outcome of this case. They allegedly found the children's bedroom window wide open and the shutter up and yet not one of them had the wit to call 112. Unbelievable!
John, PLEASe
You have said the same thing over and over and I m fed up of rtesponding to it.
You have property in Spain, I believe, and have lived there for an extended period, so YOU would know 112.
Most of us do not have a property in Europe and would not know that number.
The Tapas group were fairly seasoned travellers and would have stayed at 3* and above hotels a number of times before. They would know that the reception is the place to go. Reception speak both languages fluently, and would instantly be set up to phone the right place and explain the circumstances.
Receptioin is there to help the guests.
Maybe you, John, are not a seasoned 3*+ hotel guest and are not aware of the main purpose of reception?
What the Mccanns / Tapas did was the norm and they did it promptly.
[moderated]
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 02, 2014, 04:41:26 PM
One wouldn't need to be holidaying abroad for Reception to be the first port of call in an emergency; but in a country where you do not speak the language it would be common sense.
If for example, someone was suffering a heart attack what would be more helpful ... dialling 911 and trying to explain to centralised emergency services exactly what service you require; exactly what the problem is; and exactly what your location is ... or sending someone to run to Reception in a couple of minutes and telling them the problem and allowing them to do their job of alerting emergency services?
In my opinion the latter option is the more efficient whether dealing with a medical emergency or a missing child; it could save time, for example how many of us know the exact address of a holiday accomodation.
I wonder if added risk assessments have taken place in holiday resorts to ammend protocols and procedures when a child goes missing not to assume that the disappearance is not indicative of criminal intent but to immediately assume the worst scenario and call the police as soon as the immediate search of the area where the child was last seen is complete.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 05, 2014, 05:09:54 PM
You have said the same thing over and over and I m fed up of responding to it. You have property in Spain, I believe, and have lived there for an extended period, so YOU would know 112. Most of us do not have a property in Europe and would not know that number.
The Tapas group were fairly seasoned travellers and would have stayed at 3* and above hotels a number of times before. They would know that the reception is the place to go. Reception speak both languages fluently, and would instantly be set up to phone the right place and explain the circumstances.
Reception is there to help the guests.
Maybe you, John, are not a seasoned 3*+ hotel guest and are not aware of the main purpose of reception?
What the Mccanns / Tapas did was the norm and they did it promptly.
Sorry...don't agree. Had this been a hotel with reception on site you might have had an argument but this wasn't the case, reception was several minutes away and quite remote from the OC Garden complex.
There just aren't any excuses Sadie, they all had tongues and could ask anyone what the emergency phone number was. And as someone posted previously, the emergency control room could call on English speakers at any time, day or night. So in reality all the excuses in the world just don't wash. The more I think about it the more valid the thread title is, namely, A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
If you need something to eat or want to order a taxi or request room service you go to reception Sadie, if your child disappears in suspicious circumstances leading you to believe he or she has been abducted, guess what?
You phone the fecking police ASAP! ...just like the waiter and Mrs Fenn wanted to do but were rebuked. Very odd?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2014, 05:45:54 PM
Sorry...don't agree. Had this been a hotel with reception on site you might have had an argument but this wasn't the case, reception was several minutes away and quite remote from the OC Garden complex.
There just aren't any excuses Sadie, they all had tongues and could ask anyone what the emergency phone number was. And as someone posted previously, the emergency control room could call on English speakers at any time, day or night. So in reality all the excuses in the world just don't wash. The more I think about it the more valid the thread title is, namely, A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
If you need something to eat or want to order a taxi or request room service you go to reception Sadie, if your child disappears in suspicious circumstances leading you to believe he or she has been abducted, guess what?
You phone the fecking police ASAP! ...just like the waiter and Mrs Fenn wanted to do but were rebuked. Very odd?
My dear Forum Owner I am with you on that one. My immediate reaction would be to phone the cops. But then clearly I am not a seasoned enough traveler to understand what I should do is waste my time trying to find a receptionist to do it for me. I am the sort of seasoned traveler who takes note of where the fire escape is and counts the doors to it.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2014, 06:04:30 PM
My dear Forum Owner I am with you on that one. My immediate reaction would be to phone the cops. But then clearly I am not a seasoned enough traveler to understand what I should do is waste my time trying to find a receptionist to do it for me. I am the sort of seasoned traveler who takes note of where the fire escape is and counts the doors to it.
Funnily enough I too always plan an escape route when in an unfamiliar place and do a risk assessment in my head even when on a visit to the theatre.
Wonderful to go through those thought processes in the cold light of day as it were.
My foresight has never been tested in the event of a real and devastating emergency situation so I have no idea how I might react and may be no more immune to running around like a headless chicken than the next person.
For that reason I would not presume to second guess those who have been in a heart stopping emergency; but I have no idea where you are coming from - the McCann family thought the police had been called, If the Drs McCann had each made a call do you think the GNR could have responded any sooner?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 05, 2014, 06:17:34 PM
My dear Forum Owner I am with you on that one. My immediate reaction would be to phone the cops. But then clearly I am not a seasoned enough traveler to understand what I should do is waste my time trying to find a receptionist to do it for me. I am the sort of seasoned traveler who takes note of where the fire escape is and counts the doors to it.
Of course there was no mention of of Kate running in shouting "Maddie has been abducted please someone phone the police"- none in tapas did? and why did the mother in law not rush to help with the search? I find that very odd she stayed behind for 5 mins ? why? and poor Mrs Fenn- she was another one to get the sharp end of Kates nasty snipes!
Oh, and well, I forgot, who better to deal with an emergency that A WHOLE BUNCH OF DOCTORS!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2014, 06:24:18 PM
Funnily enough I too always plan an escape route when in an unfamiliar place and do a risk assessment in my head even when on a visit to the theatre.
Wonderful to go through those thought processes in the cold light of day as it were.
My foresight has never been tested in the event of a real and devastating emergency situation so I have no idea how I might react and may be no more immune to running around like a headless chicken than the next person.
For that reason I would not presume to second guess those who have been in a heart stopping emergency; but I have no idea where you are coming from - the McCann family thought the police had been called, If the Drs McCann had each made a call do you think the GNR could have responded any sooner?
That is the part I do not understand. I would never dream of delegating such an important task to someone else so find it hard to understand why anyone would. Do it myself I know it has been done and properly. Who ever was "catching" at the police office would likely ask questions a stranger could not answer... We must politely beg to differ; I find it strange behaviour you find it perfectly normal.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: julie on September 05, 2014, 06:39:21 PM
That is the part I do not understand. I would never dream of delegating such an important task to someone else so find it hard to understand why anyone would. Do it myself I know it has been done and properly. Who ever was "catching" at the police office would likely ask questions a stranger could not answer... We must politely beg to differ; I find it strange behaviour you find it perfectly normal.
the truth is that they were all pissed to varying degrees and couldnt conduct a lucid telephone conversation with anyone let alone the police so that in my book makes it twice that they let maddie down.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2014, 07:36:19 PM
the truth is that they were all pissed to varying degrees and couldnt conduct a lucid telephone conversation with anyone let alone the police so that in my book makes it twice that they let maddie down.
If that is anything more than your opinion it would be an idea to provide a cite; bearing in mind the waiter who served them at the table gave a statement to the PJ diametrically opposed to what you have said.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 05, 2014, 07:50:50 PM
The waiter at the table had no idea if they were taking prescription meds or what they had to drink before they went to the Tapas, which would contradict a waiter saying they didn't have much to drink at the table. and without a blood test being done - no one will know.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2014, 10:25:46 PM
How remiss of me to forget that if one wishes to hound the Drs McCann there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever to base opinion even loosely on fact and that witness statements which tend to uphold their position are ignored or distorted.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on September 06, 2014, 01:39:44 AM
the truth is that they were all pissed to varying degrees and couldnt conduct a lucid telephone conversation with anyone let alone the police so that in my book makes it twice that they let maddie down.
The wine came with the meal. The meal wasn't even ordered until around 9.00. The alarm was raised at 10. In the intervening HOUR they ate a three course meal and some of them took time out to check on their children. No-one knows how many unemptied glasses and bottles remained on the table when the alarm was raised - and hardly time to get sloshed anyway - even if they had not been eating a meal.
Not one single person, either OC staff, restaurant staff or policeman have ever even hinted that anyone was inebriated.
But hey - why let the facts get in the way of a good myth. And what do the people who were there at the time know anyway - compared to what 'sceptics' know.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2014, 01:48:14 AM
The wine came with the meal. The meal wasn't even ordered until around 9.00. The alarm was raised at 10. In the intervening HOUR they ate a three course meal and some of them took time out to check on their children. No-one knows how many unemptied glasses and bottles remained on the table when the alarm was raised - and hardly time to get sloshed anyway - even if they had not been eating a meal.
Not one single person, either OC staff, restaurant staff or policeman have ever even hinted that anyone was inebriated.
But hey - why let the facts get in the way of a good myth. And what do the people who were there at the time know anyway - compared to what 'sceptics' know.
One of the waiters commented that he had opened 4 bottles of wine and that they were unfinished. Also some of the galsses would have been left with wine in them. Hardly sozzled! @)(++(*
Try and get your facts right , Julie
Welcome by the way.
Wine waiter, Jeronimo, said that they were not big drinkers at all .... and certainly had drunk little on the night Madeleine was abducted.
They were not drunk, BUT exceedingly distressed ... and that is why they were not as together as normal.
I hope that you, Julie, never experienve anything like the despair that The Mccanns must have felt that night.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 06, 2014, 06:37:45 AM
One of the waiters commented that he had opened 4 bottles of wine and that they were unfinished. Also some of the galsses would have been left with wine in them. Hardly sozzled! @)(++(*
Try and get your facts right , Julie
Welcome by the way.
Wine waiter, Jeronimo, said that they were not big drinkers at all .... and certainly had drunk little on the night Madeleine was abducted.
They were not drunk, BUT exceedingly distressed ... and that is why they were not as together as normal.
I hope that you, Julie, never experienve anything like the despair that The Mccanns must have felt that night.
It wasn't just one night of drinking sadie.
IT WAS NIGHT AFTER NIGHT.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2014, 11:10:36 AM
It obviously comforts you to believe the worst of Madeleine's parents whatever the circumstances; meanwhile in the real world the evidence is readily available that the party were drinking moderately; but why let the facts bother you - Dr Amaral's documentary pejorative portrayal of the wine flowing like water from the continually clinkinking glasses and bottles is your preferred option.
Oh the power of propaganda!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: ferryman on September 06, 2014, 06:52:59 PM
It obviously comforts you to believe the worst of Madeleine's parents whatever the circumstances; meanwhile in the real world the evidence is readily available that the party were drinking moderately; but why let the facts bother you - Dr Amaral's documentary pejorative portrayal of the wine flowing like water from the continually clinkinking glasses and bottles is your preferred option.
Oh the power of propaganda!
In relation to alcohol consumption, it never appeared to me to be excessive. The wine was included in the dinner at Tapas and the functionaries were very generous in this respect. The permission was approximately one bottler per person . According to what I remember, and relative to the consumption of alcohol, there were seven bottles between the nine adults. I believe that on the first or second night they dined in the Tapas, they drank a bit more, perhaps eight or nine bottles of wine. I believe that they were also offered liquor this night, as they had been such good clients. The behaviour of the table did not change the night in questions. If anything, the group jested more than usual but no one appeared drunk.
Jeronimo salcedas.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Lace on September 06, 2014, 06:59:33 PM
Did any of the bar staff or waiters mention in their statement that they were drunk any night?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 11, 2014, 03:21:19 PM
As far as I am aware it has never been claimed by any witnesses that any of the tapas-9 were drunk the night that Madeleine disappeared but would they have failed a breathalyzer test?
I haven't met anyone yet who can indulge yet remain sober.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 11, 2014, 09:46:45 PM
It wasn't a night of drinking Stephen, you are grossly exagerating. They were eating their meal and having SOME wine with it, as most people do if the opportunity is there.
As you say, they ATE a meal every night and accompanied it with a glass or two of wine night after night.
As MOST people do
I would bet that 90% of people would have a glass, or so, of wine if it came free with the meal, as this did.
It is you, Stephen who is out of line with the reality of what most people would do.
Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal. There were no reports of drunkeness or being tiddly ....and to be frank, if say, the hubbie got a little merry and the wife stayed sober, there was no real problem anyway.
BUT there is NO report of anyone getting sloshed. Not a single report, so why keep going over something that never happened?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on September 11, 2014, 10:53:46 PM
It wasn't a night of drinking Stephen, you are grossly exagerating. They were eating their meal and having SOME wine with it, as most people do if the opportunity is there.
As you say, they ATE a meal every night and accompanied it with a glass or two of wine night after night.
As MOST people do
I would bet that 90% of people would have a glass, or so, of wine if it came free with the meal, as this did.
It is you, Stephen who is out of line with the reality of what most people would do.
Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal. There were no reports of drunkeness or being tiddly ....and to be frank, if say, the hubbie got a little merry and the wife stayed sober, there was no real problem anyway.
BUT there is NO report of anyone getting sloshed. Not a single report, so why keep going over something that never happened?
It wasn't a night of drinking Stephen, you are grossly exagerating. They were eating their meal and having SOME wine with it, as most people do if the opportunity is there.
As you say, they ATE a meal every night and accompanied it with a glass or two of wine night after night.
As MOST people do
I would bet that 90% of people would have a glass, or so, of wine if it came free with the meal, as this did.
It is you, Stephen who is out of line with the reality of what most people would do.
Having a glass or two of wine does not equate to being drunk, especially when taken with a meal. There were no reports of drunkeness or being tiddly ....and to be frank, if say, the hubbie got a little merry and the wife stayed sober, there was no real problem anyway.
BUT there is NO report of anyone getting sloshed. Not a single report, so why keep going over something that never happened?
@)(++(* I could never have imagined having my evening meal without wine, but alas I can no longer due to medication. I always had a glass while preparing the meal too. My hubby doesnt drink so no need for me to worry about driving. Oh! how I enjoyed a nice Chateneuf du Pape (probably spelt it wrong) but a nice full bodied red.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 12, 2014, 12:57:14 AM
I am not really a drinker at all, despite one part of my family having been wine merchants historically ... not posh ones !
I can take it or leave it, but me too, I am rather liking a fullbodied red, say a Barolo or a decent Rioja which has breathed a while.
I am not a drunkard Stephen, nor even really a drinker, but I enjoy an occasioanl glass of wine with a meal. Most people do.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 12, 2014, 07:05:52 PM
The point is they were out drinking and enjoying themselves- night after night! leaving the children alone.
We do not know how much they had to drink before they arrived at the tapas bar. Some people I know can drink a lot of spirits and not 'look drunk'... and MOST people you refer to do not exist in any survey commissioned to ascertain the worlds populations drinking habits. Therefore, you do not have a mandate to speak on behalf of 'most people'.
Just sayin...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2014, 11:21:30 PM
On drinks - don't some people also like to have a beer or wine before they go out?? On calling the police - plenty of employees knew, long before the call to GNR, that a child was missing, I think the reaction was to search first, then call police if not found in initial searches.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 13, 2014, 07:13:16 AM
On drinks - don't some people also like to have a beer or wine before they go out?? On calling the police - plenty of employees knew, long before the call to GNR, that a child was missing, I think the reaction was to search first, then call police if not found in initial searches.
Much too sensible post....
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 13, 2014, 11:58:46 AM
On drinks - don't some people also like to have a beer or wine before they go out?? On calling the police - plenty of employees knew, long before the call to GNR, that a child was missing, I think the reaction was to search first, then call police if not found in initial searches.
Excellent post!
This is why I do not believe in a stranger abduction from the apartment.
If they thought instantly, as Kate said 'she knew right away' that Maddie was abducted (swooshing and jemmied stuff), why bother to search before calling the police? Unless....unless of course they suspected Maddie got out of the apartment and wandered off to look for them when she woke up again.
It is quite possible that little Maddie did go out of the apartment and had a fatal fall nearby OR was found by passing gypsies/burglars wandering around...
The Team Mc's created a noose for them selves and now hang in the wilderness - swinging to and fro...
...And maybe JT did see the person removing Maddie from the scene wearing horrible trousers (fgs) and maybe she knew exactly who that person was.. she tries so hard not to answer simple questions.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 13, 2014, 11:11:22 PM
On drinks - don't some people also like to have a beer or wine before they go out?? On calling the police - plenty of employees knew, long before the call to GNR, that a child was missing, I think the reaction was to search first, then call police if not found in initial searches.
So what * IF * they had a drink at about 7 or 7.30, they still would not be inebriated 2 1/2 - 3 hours later.
And you dont even know if they drank at night before the meals, anyway.
But * IF * they did, so what ?
In your efforts to paint The Mccanns as black as possible, sorry guys, but you are over egging it.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2014, 01:38:51 PM
The statements, and book, are clear re one pre-meal drink. I don't think the delay from about 10pm (discovered apparantly missing) to 10:41pm (first phonecall to police) is anything suspicious - it is probably what I would do - search for child first, then phone police if not found.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2014, 02:15:05 PM
A blood alcohol content of 0.04% may cause impaired reasoning and lowering of caution. Loosely speaking that is about <2 units. Any more than that and judgement is definitely impaired. Who knows how much the Tapas crowd drank? I don't. But anymore than 0.08% and you ain't fit to drive. Unless of course you belong to that happy band who reckon they drive (or do anything) better with two or three beers inside them.
I would wait until I had had a good look around before calling the cops. But in the McCann case there is this anomaly of "They have taken her".
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2014, 04:30:24 PM
A blood alcohol content of 0.04% may cause impaired reasoning and lowering of caution. Loosely speaking that is about <2 units. Any more than that and judgement is definitely impaired. Who knows how much the Tapas crowd drank? I don't. But anymore than 0.08% and you ain't fit to drive. Unless of course you belong to that happy band who reckon they drive (or do anything) better with two or three beers inside them.
I would wait until I had had a good look around before calling the cops. But in the McCann case there is this anomaly of "They have taken her".
Yes but for the resort company I think it was reasonable to take the actions they did, which were: immediately mobilising staff to search, and then phoning the police when those initial searches did not find the child.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 14, 2014, 05:53:58 PM
A blood alcohol content of 0.04% may cause impaired reasoning and lowering of caution. Loosely speaking that is about <2 units. Any more than that and judgement is definitely impaired. Who knows how much the Tapas crowd drank? I don't. But anymore than 0.08% and you ain't fit to drive. Unless of course you belong to that happy band who reckon they drive (or do anything) better with two or three beers inside them.
I would wait until I had had a good look around before calling the cops. But in the McCann case there is this anomaly of "They have taken her".
Indeed Alice!
That is why I struggle with all that went on that evening and why I beleive a proper reconstruction would have cleared a few situations up.
The PJ did make mistakes, I am happy to divulge where I believe they went wrong. But, I believe theya cted according to the phone message they received!
Kate Claims, She knew right away due to the window/door being open and the shutters jemmied- she knew that Maddie could not do this on her own. I concur that Maddie could not have 'jemmied' the window by herself or climbed out by herself. But then, I do not believe that is what happened and that the jemmied and whooshing are just 'red herrings'.
So, she ran and announced 'they have taken her' or words to that effect, They did not phone the police at that precise moment...WHY? if she had been abducted? Why look in bins and drains and bushes if she had been abducted alive? who did they think abducted her?
The fact that they blamed the police for not searching and shutting down airports and Borders, and ports to catch an abductor is quite something, blame everyone else is 'soup of the day' in Team MC's Camp.
If Kate did not make the abduction claim then she would probably say Maddie is 'missing' we best go look for her...after a short period of time phone the police. The police were looking for a 'missing' child- who probably wandered off they would have been shocked to find the children were left alone every night! As are a lot of people around the globe!
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 18, 2014, 02:57:50 AM
That is why I struggle with all that went on that evening and why I beleive a proper reconstruction would have cleared a few situations up.
The PJ did make mistakes, I am happy to divulge where I believe they went wrong. But, I believe theya cted according to the phone message they received!
Kate Claims, She knew right away due to the window/door being open and the shutters jemmied- she knew that Maddie could not do this on her own. I concur that Maddie could not have 'jemmied' the window by herself or climbed out by herself. But then, I do not believe that is what happened and that the jemmied and whooshing are just 'red herrings'.
So, she ran and announced 'they have taken her' or words to that effect, They did not phone the police at that precise moment...WHY? if she had been abducted? Why look in bins and drains and bushes if she had been abducted alive? who did they think abducted her?
The fact that they blamed the police for not searching and shutting down airports and Borders, and ports to catch an abductor is quite something, blame everyone else is 'soup of the day' in Team MC's Camp.
If Kate did not make the abduction claim then she would probably say Maddie is 'missing' we best go look for her...after a short period of time phone the police. The police were looking for a 'missing' child- who probably wandered off they would have been shocked to find the children were left alone every night! As are a lot of people around the globe!
A good post Miss Taken Identity. The puzzle is, why if they immediately knew Madeleine had been taken did they set off searching instead of getting on the ball with the police immediately? The only answer I can see is that their thought processes were impaired.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2014, 10:42:07 AM
Yes but for the resort company I think it was reasonable to take the actions they did, which were: immediately mobilising staff to search, and then phoning the police when those initial searches did not find the child.
They put their procedures into action and if as everyone hoped Madeleine had wandered off, I suggest she would have been found, as one of the nannies said had happened before with wandered children.
In the immediate chaos of discovering her missing it is hardly surprising mistakes were made and posters here are posting with the benefit of hindsight with no thought given to the sheer panic, terror and disorientation of those involved at the time.
I think the MW procedures did not seem to take into consideration the immediate searches of the close vicinity undertaken by the parents and friends and while putting their procedures into play should have called the police too.
I wonder if they have since reviewed that ... easy enough to let the police know if a missing child has turned up ... if that doesn't happen as in Madeleine's case - some police investigation time will have been gained (eg. securing the scene, deciding on reinforcements etc.).
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 19, 2014, 04:40:28 PM
The Mark Warner procedure was aimed at children who had wandered off and got lost, it was not an anti abduction procedure.
The question remains, why if there was evidence of a break in, were police not contacted immediately using 112?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 19, 2014, 10:56:46 PM
Kate Claims, She knew right away due to the window/door being open and the shutters jemmied- she knew that Maddie could not do this on her own. I concur that Maddie could not have 'jemmied' the window by herself or climbed out by herself. But then, I do not believe that is what happened and that the jemmied and whooshing are just 'red herrings'.
So, she ran and announced 'they have taken her' or words to that effect, They did not phone the police at that precise moment...WHY? if she had been abducted? Why look in bins and drains and bushes if she had been abducted alive?
First of all those were NOT kates initial words.
Why put false but suspicious sounding words into her mouth? Seems you are really keen to condemn her.
Secondly, who do you think made the main decisions in that family? I think Gerry did and he couldn't get his head around what had happened initially. He wanted Madeleine to have wandered.
And he knew that you dont go calling the police the minute your child disappears when, say, out shopping. Having had a quick look in the near vicinity, the realisation of what likely might have happened sunk in.
That was the stage when he was anxious to get the Police.
I remember sending our daughter to Tours in France by bus at the age of 16. She spoke good French. Before she left, we fixed that the people that she was staying with would phone us the minute she arrived. National Express timetable said that she would arrive at 10 minutes past midnight to be dropped off by the main railway station in Tours, which meant that we should have heard by about 12.30am.
My hubby was getting anxiuos well before that time and I kept saying, stay calm, the channel crossing boat could have been late etc etc. Suddenly at about 1am I panicked along with my hubby and we rang the family to be told that they were in bed, She hadn't come. No bus had come and they had waited over 20 minutes. - so they returned home.
Please get back there quickly I said ... and, bless them, they did to find her waiting with a public schoolboy who hadn't paid his fare and had been thrown off the bus (thank goodness for our daughter having male company in that rather dubiuos spot!)
Turned out that National Express hadn't warned about the hour difference change and had given us the winter schedule rather than the new summer one
Now the point of this is. One parent panicked almost too soon, whilst the other kept calm almost too long
I guess that hubby listened to me and on this occasion, and unusually so, I was the leader.
You guys are seeing things in this small delay that you shouldn't be.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 20, 2014, 02:20:10 PM
Why put false but suspicious sounding words into her mouth? Seems you are really keen to condemn her.
Secondly, who do you think made the main decisions in that family? I think Gerry did and he couldn't get his head around what had happened initially. He wanted Madeleine to have wandered.
And he knew that you don't go calling the police the minute your child disappears when, say, out shopping. Having had a quick look in the near vicinity, the realisation of what likely might have happened sunk in.
That was the stage when he was anxious to get the Police.
I remember sending our daughter to Tours in France by bus at the age of 16. She spoke good French. Before she left, we fixed that the people that she was staying with would phone us the minute she arrived. National Express timetable said that she would arrive at 10 minutes past midnight to be dropped off by the main railway station in Tours, which meant that we should have heard by about 12.30am.
My hubby was getting anxiuos well before that time and I kept saying, stay calm, the channel crossing boat could have been late etc etc. Suddenly at about 1am I panicked along with my hubby and we rang the family to be told that they were in bed, She hadn't come. No bus had come and they had waited over 20 minutes. - so they returned home.
Please get back there quickly I said ... and, bless them, they did to find her waiting with a public schoolboy who hadn't paid his fare and had been thrown off the bus (thank goodness for our daughter having male company in that rather dubious spot!)
Turned out that National Express hadn't warned about the hour difference change and had given us the winter schedule rather than the new summer one
Now the point of this is. One parent panicked almost too soon, whilst the other kept calm almost too long
I guess that hubby listened to me and on this occasion, and unusually so, I was the leader.
You guys are seeing things in this small delay that you shouldn't be.
You're still making excuses Sadie. What were the words Kate used by the way after she was heard to SCREAM from the balcony by one of the waiters?
A child disappearing while out shopping or the experience with your daughter you mention have no relevance to Madeleine. Miss TI is quite correct when she asserts that they found a window open and a shutter up with a child missing and they didn't immediately contact the proper authorities...WHY?
Why piddle about outside in the dark looking in bins ffs?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
You're still making excuses Sadie. What were the words Kate used by the way after she was heard to SCREAM from the balcony by one of the waiters?
A child disappearing while out shopping or the experience with your daughter you mention have no relevance to Madeleine. Miss TI is quite correct when she asserts that they found a window open and a shutter up with a child missing and they didn't immediately contact the proper authorities...WHY?
Why piddle about outside in the dark looking in bins ffs?
That anonymous waiter’s alleged account of events raises questions.
The first being did he exist?
If he did exist where is his version of events mentioned in the files?
If he did exist where was he and what was he doing when he allegedly heard the shouting that no one else has reported hearing. Other witnesses have corroborated Dr Kate McCann’s statement of the manner in which she raised the alarm.
I think this person is a figment of someone’s fertile imagination; possibly even the same person who invented the Irish teen having a surreptitious smoke who witnessed two men meeting and talking in the street but who certainly not see Jane Tanner or the man carrying a child.
Seems to me scenarios and characters have been invented as the need arose to promulgate discrediting the Drs McCann and their friends ... and these are two rather obvious ones.
Makes one wonder what other depths have been plumbed which were not quite so obvious but equally if not more productive in the propaganda war obviously being waged to mould public opinion against Madeleine McCann's parents.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Eleanor on September 20, 2014, 04:11:39 PM
Kate is constantly being castigated because she didn't shout from the balcony. Another myth then.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 22, 2014, 02:43:33 PM
Why put false but suspicious sounding words into her mouth? Seems you are really keen to condemn her.
Secondly, who do you think made the main decisions in that family? I think Gerry did and he couldn't get his head around what had happened initially. He wanted Madeleine to have wandered.
And he knew that you dont go calling the police the minute your child disappears when, say, out shopping. Having had a quick look in the near vicinity, the realisation of what likely might have happened sunk in.
That was the stage when he was anxious to get the Police.
I remember sending our daughter to Tours in France by bus at the age of 16. She spoke good French. Before she left, we fixed that the people that she was staying with would phone us the minute she arrived. National Express timetable said that she would arrive at 10 minutes past midnight to be dropped off by the main railway station in Tours, which meant that we should have heard by about 12.30am.
My hubby was getting anxiuos well before that time and I kept saying, stay calm, the channel crossing boat could have been late etc etc. Suddenly at about 1am I panicked along with my hubby and we rang the family to be told that they were in bed, She hadn't come. No bus had come and they had waited over 20 minutes. - so they returned home.
Please get back there quickly I said ... and, bless them, they did to find her waiting with a public schoolboy who hadn't paid his fare and had been thrown off the bus (thank goodness for our daughter having male company in that rather dubiuos spot!)
Turned out that National Express hadn't warned about the hour difference change and had given us the winter schedule rather than the new summer one
Now the point of this is. One parent panicked almost too soon, whilst the other kept calm almost too long
I guess that hubby listened to me and on this occasion, and unusually so, I was the leader.
You guys are seeing things in this small delay that you shouldn't be.
If you watch videos of Kate, she really does say she knew right away Maddie was 'taken'- let's do her maths
One child left sleeping- door ajar-windows unjemmied-no whooshig curtains, all is well.
Kate presents herself in the apartment to 'check' and finds: slamming door- missing child-whooshing curtain-jemmied shutters... she thinks what? Well she tells us what she 'knows', and you are all here to testify to her claims that Maddie was abducted and that the window was a form of entry or escape.
Sounds simple when you say it like that huh?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 22, 2014, 04:56:33 PM
If you watch videos of Kate, she really does say she knew right away Maddie was 'taken'- let's do her maths
One child left sleeping- door ajar-windows unjemmied-no whooshig curtains, all is well.
Kate presents herself in the apartment to 'check' and finds: slamming door- missing child-whooshing curtain-jemmied shutters... she thinks what? Well she tells us what she 'knows', and you are all here to testify to her claims that Maddie was abducted and that the window was a form of entry or escape.
Sounds simple when you say it like that huh?
Of course Kate would more or less know Madeleine had been taken.
- Kate would be aware of what Madeleines capabilities re opening windows and shutters were, opening patio doors and safety gates also - She was aware that Madeleine had a rousing voice and would have spotted them from the balcony and called them. - Also would have wakened the twins before going off adventuring - She saw Ccat left behind !!! Ccat who went everywhere with Madeleine at night - She saw cuddleblanket left behind - She saw a window and shutter open that had ben left closed
Of course it wouldn't have taken Kate long to work out how Madeleine had vanished. Any intelligent woman would soon work it out but she still hoped against all hopes that she was mistaken. That would be only natural ... and wanted to search locally.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2014, 11:12:36 PM
Of course Kate would more or less know Madeleine had been taken.
- Kate would be aware of what Madeleines capabilities re opening windows and shutters were, opening patio doors and safety gates also - She was aware that Madeleine had a rousing voice and would have spotted them from the balcony and called them. - Also would have wakened the twins before going off adventuring - She saw Ccat left behind !!! Ccat who went everywhere with Madeleine at night - She saw cuddleblanket left behind - She saw a window and shutter open that had ben left closed
Of course it wouldn't have taken Kate long to work out how Madeleine had vanished. Any intelligent woman would soon work it out but she still hoped against all hopes that she was mistaken. That would be only natural ... and wanted to search locally.
I cannot imagine the horror of the situation.
A child left sleeping in a ground floor apartment.
An open window.
An empty bed.
Only an imbecile would miss the significance of that.
Yet I hear them bleat ... why? why? why? didn't everyone call the police? The police were called and arrived in time enough to set the procedures in motion for a missing child for it to make some difference to the outcome ... they didn't actually do that ... nor did they secure the scene of what might have been a crime.
As foreigners who did not speak Portuguese ... the logical ... the eminently sensible thing to do ... was to have a portuguese speaker make that call. Why there should be any question about that escapes me ...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2014, 01:11:48 AM
Kate is constantly being castigated because she didn't shout from the balcony. Another myth then.
Several waiters including Jose Baptiste and Ricardo Oliveira and nanny Charlotte Pennington all reported screams from the apartment balcony but these were after Kate had reported the disappearance to the tapas group. There seems to be a bit of confusion here but not a myth.
Precisely. The open window and the empty bed are directly connected. Hearing and seeing the window being opened scared someone out of the bed.
I agree with you about the phonecall - it was more important to search at first.
I am sorry Pegasus, I agree with much that you say, but on this point I am inclined to disagree.
Imo, all the children were given some sort of sleeping draft with, or before, their tea. Madeleine, imo, was given a strong dose. Reasons for this thought are (1) The exteme exhaustion of Madeleine that evening and one parent even had to carry her home (2) The way that it the twins slept thru all the noise after Madeleine was found missing... and even being transferred to another apartment on a cool blustery night without waking.
I doubt any of them heard the shutter and window being opened
I think the shutter and window were opened for several other probable reasons:
* An escape route in emergency
* For the actual lifter ( in case madeleine woke up, someone who she knew, probably an OC employee who had had contact with Madeleine) to converse with the man who took her away ... and I still think it likely that that man was Tannerman. Also to pass stuff thru, like chloroform.
* To dissipate any fumes afterwards
* To watch for any parents coming along the road. Despite thin moving foliage at the lower part of the street trees, the road was reasonably lit and moving figures would be seen
* To Possibly give a little more light to the room or enable someone outside to shine a torch in
* To deliberately obfuscate. Throw the searchers off , by initially giving the impression that Madeleine had gone through the window of her own will. To encourage people to search first, rather than call the Police immediately
* To take the attention off the front door. This was the most obvious way in and out, being so recessed, out of sight, dark and not passed by anyone. Also to remove the obvious conclusions that people would make, that a staff member of OC was involved.
* And then there are the Watchers and the pile of fag ends on the balcony opposite
I think that there is little doubt that this was an abduction. SY seem to agree.
8()-000( Tin hat on, screen licking Stephens around. @)(++(*
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 25, 2014, 12:39:30 PM
I was reading up on the statements by the tapas waiters and by the first nanny on the scene shortly after 10pm and without doubt Kate was in hysterics screaming like a banshee from the balcony. In those circumstances I fail to understand why the twins weren't roused?
As for your comment Sadie that there is little doubt there was an abduction your judgement is sorely impaired. It could very well be that nobody knows what happened to Maddie. Its not the first time a youngster has fallen down a hole.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 25, 2014, 01:00:31 PM
I was reading up on the statements by the tapas waiters and by the first nanny on the scene shortly after 10pm and without doubt Kate was in hysterics screaming like a banshee from the balcony. In those circumstances I fail to understand why the twins weren't roused?
As for your comment Sadie that there is little doubt there was an abduction your judgement is sorely impaired. It could very well be that nobody knows what happened to Maddie. Its not the first time a youngster has fallen down a hole.
Ap[art from the obvious pointers to an abduction mentioned here, you are forgetting that I have done extraordinarily extensive research for the period after the abduction .... and the pointers that I found showing what happened to Madeleine afterwards are mind blowing in their magnitude.
I have been places and questioned people that none of you have even thought of
However, I still do not state definitely anything, but I am pretty sure
And,
Yep, sadie has good reason to feel smug
*&*%£
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 25, 2014, 01:12:34 PM
Ap[art from the obvious pointers to an abduction mentioned here, you are forgetting that I have done extraordinarily extensive research for the period after the abduction .... and the pointers that I found showing what happened to Madeleine afterwards are mind blowing in their magnitude.
I have been places and questioned people that none of you have even thought of
However, I still do not state definitely anything, but I am pretty sure
And,
Yep, sadie has good reason to feel smug
*&*%£
'Pointers' to abduction ?
There are more pointers to accidental death.
As to feeling 'smug', there is nothing to be smug about . &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2014, 01:31:31 PM
I was reading up on the statements by the tapas waiters and by the first nanny on the scene shortly after 10pm and without doubt Kate was in hysterics screaming like a banshee from the balcony. In those circumstances I fail to understand why the twins weren't roused?
As for your comment Sadie that there is little doubt there was an abduction your judgement is sorely impaired. It could very well be that nobody knows what happened to Maddie. Its not the first time a youngster has fallen down a hole.
Any combination of the numerous pointers outlined by Sadie point to abduction.
If Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition you will have to consider how she could have done so without leaving a trace.
(a) She was not wearing shoes (b) She had never seen anyone opening the window or the shutter of her room (c) Her fingerprints were not on the window or on the sill or on the shutter mechanism (d) Her fingerprints were not on the front door (e) Her fingerprints were not on the sliding patio door (f) Her fingerprints were not on the gates
Do we even know if a three year old was capable of opening the doors or the window? If so it is unlikely it could be done without leaving a trace. An adult intruder on the other hand would take care he/she left no forensic evidence; however since the initial forensics lifted from the scene were useless we will never know if he/she was careful enough.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2014, 02:41:58 PM
I am sorry Pegasus, I agree with much that you say, but on this point I am inclined to disagree.
Imo, all the children were given some sort of sleeping draft with, or before, their tea. Madeleine, imo, was given a strong dose. Reasons for this thought are (1) The exteme exhaustion of Madeleine that evening and one parent even had to carry her home (2) The way that it the twins slept thru all the noise after Madeleine was found missing... and even being transferred to another apartment on a cool blustery night without waking.
I doubt any of them heard the shutter and window being opened
I think the shutter and window were opened for several other probable reasons:
* An escape route in emergency
* For the actual lifter ( in case madeleine woke up, someone who she knew, probably an OC employee who had had contact with Madeleine) to converse with the man who took her away ... and I still think it likely that that man was Tannerman. Also to pass stuff thru, like chloroform.
* To dissipate any fumes afterwards
* To watch for any parents coming along the road. Despite thin moving foliage at the lower part of the street trees, the road was reasonably lit and moving figures would be seen
* To Possibly give a little more light to the room or enable someone outside to shine a torch in
* To deliberately obfuscate. Throw the searchers off , by initially giving the impression that Madeleine had gone through the window of her own will. To encourage people to search first, rather than call the Police immediately
* To take the attention off the front door. This was the most obvious way in and out, being so recessed, out of sight, dark and not passed by anyone. Also to remove the obvious conclusions that people would make, that a staff member of OC was involved.
* And then there are the Watchers and the pile of fag ends on the balcony opposite
I think that there is little doubt that this was an abduction. SY seem to agree.
8()-000( Tin hat on, screen licking Stephens around. @)(++(*
That could relate to the stain on WED. Twins knocked out the next night - Kate checking their breathing. Was something still in their system from the previous night? They will want to find the source of that stain. The large stain Kate tried to clean on the morning of her daughter's disappearance.
TUE crying / Kate's phone calls 10-15 to 10:30 / Kate/DP missing? / cot in parent's bedroom? WED stain / late night out / DP check? / Kate in spare bed. THUR - stain cleaned / no play area / DP visit / child gone.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 25, 2014, 05:26:47 PM
Ap[art from the obvious pointers to an abduction mentioned here, you are forgetting that I have done extraordinarily extensive research for the period after the abduction .... and the pointers that I found showing what happened to Madeleine afterwards are mind blowing in their magnitude.
I have been places and questioned people that none of you have even thought of
However, I still do not state definitely anything, but I am pretty sure
And,
Yep, sadie has good reason to feel smug
*&*%£
Spill the beans, if you are never heard from again we will know you were right.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 25, 2014, 06:18:29 PM
Spill the beans, if you are never heard from again we will know you were right.
No way. I do not go around mentioning names as likely paedos.
I have had a number of threats Slarti ... including our car being shot at on the M5 ... but SY are aware of who might be behind the threats and he/they would be a bit foolish to try again ... using that method anyhow.
SY are aware of everything. Sometimes I wonder if these people are too important to be apprehended. Untouchables.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 06:55:53 AM
No way. I do not go around mentioning names as likely paedos.
I have had a number of threats Slarti ... including our car being shot at on the M5 ... but SY are aware of who might be behind the threats and he/they would be a bit foolish to try again ... using that method anyhow.
SY are aware of everything. Sometimes I wonder if these people are too important to be apprehended. Untouchables.
What the FCUK ??
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: ferryman on September 26, 2014, 07:11:10 AM
Any combination of the numerous pointers outlined by Sadie point to abduction.
If Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition you will have to consider how she could have done so without leaving a trace.
(a) She was not wearing shoes (b) She had never seen anyone opening the window or the shutter of her room (c) Her fingerprints were not on the window or on the sill or on the shutter mechanism (d) Her fingerprints were not on the front door (e) Her fingerprints were not on the sliding patio door (f) Her fingerprints were not on the gates
Do we even know if a three year old was capable of opening the doors or the window? If so it is unlikely it could be done without leaving a trace. An adult intruder on the other hand would take care he/she left no forensic evidence; however since the initial forensics lifted from the scene were useless we will never know if he/she was careful enough.
On that first point, not only was Madeleine not wearing shoes, the only pair of outdoor shoes she had on that holiday were found in the villa after she vanished, although I have heard the view expressed that a child Madeleine's age wouldn't necessarily think to put shoes on.
That surprised me, I confess ...
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2014, 11:15:20 AM
I know that you have spelt it wrongly, but I do not think that it is a suitable word for a man [especially one claiming to be a professional) to use aimed at a woman ...
I spent 10 years in industry, 3 on the 'shop floor', working alongside labourers as well as craftsmen, and occasionally I heard the word , but never did any man aim such langiage at me
And, you know, if the utterer of the language realised that I had heard it, he always apologised
Just cos you are losing the argument doesn't give you reason to use foul language ... especially to a woman
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 11:21:53 AM
I know that you have spelt it wrongly, but I do not think that it is a suitable word for a man [especially one claiming to be a professional) to use aimed at a woman ...
I spent 10 years in industry, 3 on the 'shop floor', working alongside labourers as well as craftsmen, and occasionally I heard the word , but never did any man aim such langiage at me
And, you know, if the utterer of the language realised that I had heard it, he always apologised
Just cos you are losing the argument doesn't give you reason to use foul language ... especially to a woman
I haven't lost any argument sadie.
Your posts are geared towards wild theories which you cannot substantiate And look increasingly weird. . So if you want to put forward your 'theories', expect a response.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 11:31:44 AM
Your posts are geared towards wild theories which you cannot substantiate And look increasingly weird. . So if you want to put forward your 'theories', expect a response.
An intelligent response is one thing profanity is another - and I applaud Sadie for pulling you up on it.
You have been given numerous examples by different posters of circumstances which in another jurisdiction would have been considered as indicators of abduction or criminal intervention by others.
You have been unable to present a cogent argument against even one.
Says it all.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 11:34:03 AM
An intelligent response is one thing profanity is another - and I applaud Sadie for pulling you up on it.
You have been given numerous examples by different posters of circumstances which in another jurisdiction would have been considered as indicators of abduction.
You have been unable to present a cogent argument against even one.
Says it all.
Dear oh dear.
Numerous examples, i.e. Only in the minds of certain mccann supporters.
sadie's wild theories have become a laughing stock.
You haven't presented any evidence at all of an abduction that would stand up in court.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2014, 11:45:08 AM
Your posts are geared towards wild theories which you cannot substantiate And look increasingly weird. . So if you want to put forward your 'theories', expect a response.
I dont expect foul language aimed at me.
That is NOT a suitable response, just cos you are losing it.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 11:46:08 AM
Numerous examples, i.e. Only in the minds of certain mccann supporters.
sadie's wild theories have become a laughing stock.
You haven't presented any evidence at all of an abduction that would stand up in court.
Source materials taken from witness statements as recorded in the files are ignored in the main by some unless there is anything in them which can be twisted to suit an agenda directed against Madeleine’s parents. An unbiased reading of these files is worth considering while bearing in mind translation errors.
Over the past year I find the people most likely to be attacked and ridiculed are those whose opinions are feared. Most recently S&S. I doubt very much that Sadie needs to have any worries that you disapprove of her theories … which she always maintains are open to question, discussion and amendment … much easier for you just to deride than do that.
It remains to be seen how much evidence the PJ and the Met have if suspects are brought to court; there certainly never was any to indict the Drs McCann. About time that was taken on board.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2014, 12:05:54 PM
Source materials taken from witness statements as recorded in the files are ignored in the main by some unless there is anything in them which can be twisted to suit an agenda directed against Madeleine’s parents. An unbiased reading of these files is worth considering while bearing in mind translation errors.
Over the past year I find the people most likely to be attacked and ridiculed are those whose opinions are feared. Most recently S&S. I doubt very much that Sadie needs to have any worries that you disapprove of her theories … which she always maintains are open to question, discussion and amendment … much easier for you just to deride than do that.
It remains to be seen how much evidence the PJ and the Met have if suspects are brought to court; there certainly never was any to indict the Drs McCann. About time that was taken on board.
8@??)( 8@??)( Good observations Brietta.
The more I am ridiculed and laughed at, the more I know that I have hit a sore spot.
I have noticed that some peeps on here on the sceptics side, seem to be organised to come into a hard and prolonged attack whenever I mention something new that might point to the abductor, or the MO of the group behind the "master" abductor.
Now I wonder why that is?
Could it be to do with revealing not only a human trafficking group but also a lucrative drug trafficking set up?
There has to be a reason, there always is.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2014, 12:16:33 PM
The more I am ridiculed and laughed at, the more I know that I have hit a sore spot.
I have noticed that some peeps on here on the sceptics side, seem to be organised to come into a hard and prolonged attack whenever I mention something new that might point to the abductor, or the MO of the group behind the "master" abductor.
Now I wonder why that is?
Could it be to do with revealing not only a human trafficking group but also a lucrative drug trafficking set up?
There has to be a reason, there always is.
No sadie, the reason you are laughed at, and don't kid yourself you're not, is for the rubbish theories you post.
and your response above merely magnifies your idiocy.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 26, 2014, 12:30:50 PM
Yep losing the discussion, cos we use FACTS and you use any old myths and misinformation, but rarely facts
You cant beat FACTS Stephen. They are solid and dependable.
Try using them sometime. 8(0(*
And the fact is the parents didn't phone the police straight away after they knew she had been abducted. Fiona finally told Matt to go and call them 10-15 minutes after the alarm. Kate should have contacted them straight away but examining shutters seemed to be more important. Maybe Gerry being out and about searching for that evil Portuguese paedo gang explains why she didn't contact them straight away.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 26, 2014, 02:11:17 PM
The more I am ridiculed and laughed at, the more I know that I have hit a sore spot.
I have noticed that some peeps on here on the sceptics side, seem to be organised to come into a hard and prolonged attack whenever I mention something new that might point to the abductor, or the MO of the group behind the "master" abductor.
Now I wonder why that is?
Could it be to do with revealing not only a human trafficking group but also a lucrative drug trafficking set up?
There has to be a reason, there always is.
Have you never considered that people who criticise your wild assertions may be actually concerned about your state of mind?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2014, 02:14:00 PM
And the fact is the parents didn't phone the police straight away after they knew she had been abducted. Fiona finally told Matt to go and call them 10-15 minutes after the alarm. Kate should have contacted them straight away but examining shutters seemed to be more important. Maybe Gerry being out and about searching for that evil Portuguese paedo gang explains why she didn't contact them straight away.
I think KM honestly but mistakenly deduced from the open window that it was abduction. Shortly after that, the tests by 2 people on that shutter (and by 1 person on another shutter) were because those people initially did not believe the shutter could be opened from outside. IMO all the searches up to GNR arrival were, without exception, completely genuine. I think the assumption that the timewindow for exit from apartment has to be something approximately like 21:00-22:00 (2007 PJ) or 21:30-22:00 (2013 SY) is illogical.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
I think KM honestly but mistakenly deduced from the open window that it was abduction. Shortly after that, the tests by 2 people on that shutter (and by 1 person on another shutter) were because those people initially did not believe the shutter could be opened from outside. IMO all the searches up to GNR arrival were, without exception, completely genuine. I think the assumption that the timewindow for exit from apartment has to be something approximately like 21:00-22:00 (2007 PJ) or 21:30-22:00 (2013 SY) is illogical.
I do not believe Dr McCann was mistaken when she thought Madeleine had been abducted, pegasus, and like you I believe her account is an honest one.
In my opinion the opening of the window and raising the shutter was for a reason and we have and will speculate about what that was till the cows come home.
However as far as the person\s who opened the window was concerned it has had a spectacular result possibly not anticipated as the real purpose; it has served directly to be used not as confirmation of stranger intrusion, but as an accusation of being a ‘cover up’ device by parents who were unfortunate enough not to meet the Portuguese stereotype of parents whose child has been abducted – whatever that may be.
If Madeleine McCann’s parents had hatched a plot against her person … I think we can be rest assured it would never have been any of the stupid theories propounded … and that includes opening the window and shutter in an attempt to delude the police.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2014, 02:56:25 PM
I do not believe Dr McCann was mistaken when she thought Madeleine had been abducted, pegasus, and like you I believe her account is an honest one.
In my opinion the opening of the window and raising the shutter was for a reason and we have and will speculate about what that was till the cows come home.
However as far as the person\s who opened the window was concerned it has had a spectacular result possibly not anticipated as the real purpose; it has served directly to be used not as confirmation of stranger intrusion, but as an accusation of being a ‘cover up’ device by parents who were unfortunate enough not to meet the Portuguese stereotype of parents whose child has been abducted – whatever that may be.
If Madeleine McCann’s parents had hatched a plot against her person … I think we can be rest assured it would never have been any of the stupid theories propounded … and that includes opening the window and shutter in an attempt to delude the police.
The open window confirms they knew it was abduction. An unlocked door doesn't explain it - Madeleine could have left. That option is gone with the open window/shutters. That proves she was abducted. Well it doesn't actually @)(++(*
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 26, 2014, 04:16:05 PM
I think KM honestly but mistakenly deduced from the open window that it was abduction. Shortly after that, the tests by 2 people on that shutter (and by 1 person on another shutter) were because those people initially did not believe the shutter could be opened from outside. IMO all the searches up to GNR arrival were, without exception, completely genuine. I think the assumption that the timewindow for exit from apartment has to be something approximately like 21:00-22:00 (2007 PJ) or 21:30-22:00 (2013 SY) is illogical.
Means, motive and opportunity. Who had it?
I don't believe this but I could produce a theory that Tanner was involved. She didn't pass Gerry/Jez but was giving herself an alibi. She went into 5A and moved the door. She was the only one missing from the table when the alarm was raised. She carried Madeleine away from 5A. That theory explains means and opportunity but it falls short and it doesn't explain motive or Smithman, dog alerts etc. But it explains the door moves and open window. So who else had the means and opportunity? Jez walking the streets (wouldn't he know if there were others or cars about! - well he spotted Tanner hanging outside) and another who made his first visual check of the week. What's the motive for abducting Madeleine? Money, revenge or covering up a crime?
The primary motive for the child abduction killer in the cases studied was sexual assault.
In 76 percent of the missing children homicide cases studied, the child was dead within three hours of the abduction and in 88.5 percent of the cases the child was dead within 24 hours.
Key recommendations to protect children:
Be certain that your children are supervised – even if they are in their own front yard or neighborhood street. Approximately one-third of the abductions studied took occurred within one-half block of the victim’s home.
If your child is ever missing, CALL POLICE IMMEDIATELY. An immediate response to a missing or abducted child may be the difference between life and death.
I do not believe Dr McCann was mistaken when she thought Madeleine had been abducted, pegasus, and like you I believe her account is an honest one.
In my opinion the opening of the window and raising the shutter was for a reason and we have and will speculate about what that was till the cows come home.
However as far as the person\s who opened the window was concerned it has had a spectacular result possibly not anticipated as the real purpose; it has served directly to be used not as confirmation of stranger intrusion, but as an accusation of being a ‘cover up’ device by parents who were unfortunate enough not to meet the Portuguese stereotype of parents whose child has been abducted – whatever that may be.
If Madeleine McCann’s parents had hatched a plot against her person … I think we can be rest assured it would never have been any of the stupid theories propounded … and that includes opening the window and shutter in an attempt to delude the police.
Yes agreed that KM's account is truthful, and agreed that the scene in that child bedroom was not staged in any way, it was exactly how she found it, and no-one else had staged it either, it was the genuine crime scene. However I think abduction is far from the only possible explanation.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 04:44:55 PM
Yes agreed that KM's account is truthful, and agreed that the scene in that child bedroom was not staged in any way, it was exactly how she found it, and no-one else had staged it either, it was the genuine crime scene. However I think abduction is far from the only possible explanation.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, p, there is no evidence to substantiate other theories put forward; but there are plenty of witness statements suggesting 5a was under surveillance which imo were not sufficiently investigated to dismiss them from being significant.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2014, 06:33:14 PM
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, p, there is no evidence to substantiate other theories put forward; but there are plenty of witness statements suggesting 5a was under surveillance which imo were not sufficiently investigated to dismiss them from being significant.
I understand how at the time in the panic at 10pm it looked like abduction.
But the combination of open window plus no typical loot items taken plus possible looking at the outside of the residence beforehand says to me very clearly: interrupted burglary.
As for the 40 minute delay before calling the police, I think it made sense to search first, and the group did ask someone to call earlier than that.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2014, 07:12:09 PM
I understand how at the time in the panic at 10pm it looked like abduction.
But the combination of open window plus no typical loot items taken plus possible looking at the outside of the residence beforehand says to me very clearly: interrupted burglary.
As for the 40 minute delay before calling the police, I think it made sense to search first, and the group did ask someone to call earlier than that.
I certainly agree that the confusion in calling the police is perfectly understandable and I have never understood why it has become such an issue of blame directed at the parents who were in bits. In effect they did ask for the call to be made more timeously, it could not have occurred that had not been done immediately.
The 'laid back' attitude of the first attending officers who assessed on arrival that Madeleine had just wandered also wasted the 'golden hours' and is less understandable as they were disinterested professionals not caught up in the emotion of the moment.
Actually the number of suspicious people hanging around the apartment leading up to Madeleine's disappearance suggest the opposite of burglary to me. Too much effort to justify going for tourist watches, passports, phones or small change left over at the end of a holiday. Dr K McCann did not have expensive jewellery in the apartment.
Whoever put that amount of effort into surveillance were after something far more valuable than tourist belongings.
The other burglaries in the apartments were opportunistic in and out jobs helped with inside information, probably using a key and were probably to finance a drug habit ... I very much doubt that had Madeleine disturbed such a person it would have ended in her disappearance.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 26, 2014, 08:06:24 PM
What should I do?
1. Phone the police
OR
2. Examine the shutters
&%+((£
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 26, 2014, 08:08:18 PM
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2014, 08:16:05 PM
@Brietta yes the delay in phoning is understandable, it only became a problem when some people started claiming that the delay was the fault of the GNR not responding quick enough. In fact the GNR responded very quickly as soon as someone called them.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 26, 2014, 08:29:39 PM
@Brietta yes the delay in phoning is understandable, it only became a problem when some people started claiming that the delay was the fault of the GNR not responding quick enough. In fact the GNR responded very quickly as soon as someone called them.
That's not entirely true as the GNR patrol continued with their work in Odiaxere before making their way to Luz. There was no urgency seemingly until the station commander made a second radio call to them to get a move on. It then became a case of blues and twos.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 26, 2014, 08:37:39 PM
Yes Dianne first then Fiona from their statements.
"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. (DW)
"And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy. I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
00.50.31 1485 'And''
Reply 'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'(FP)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2014, 08:58:22 PM
That's not entirely true as the GNR patrol continued with their work in Odiaxere before making their way to Luz. There was no urgency seemingly until the station commander made a second radio call to them to get a move on. It then became a case of blues and twos.
At 2242 (first radio call) the patrol are in Odiaxere. At 2251 (second radio call) the patrol is already passing through Valverde (outskirts of PDL). They responded fast. Snappy and excellent I would call it. They drove 12km in a quarter the time it took some foreign peeps to not pull a mobile out their pocket.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: sadie on September 26, 2014, 10:39:57 PM
At 2242 (first radio call) the patrol are in Odiaxere. At 2251 (second radio call) the patrol is already passing through Valverde (outskirts of PDL). They responded fast. Snappy and excellent I would call it. They drove 12km in a quarter the time it took some foreign peeps to not pull a mobile out their pocket.
Sorry to disagree again, but I measure 9 KM not 12 KM Odiaxere to Valverde in 9 minutes.
I also thought that I read that Matt had gone about 5 to 10 minutes after the alarm was raised. Lets be generous to you and say 9 minutes. So they drove 9 Km (approx 5.6 miles) in the time that it took Matt to raise the alarm at the Reception?
That's pretty fair, imo. for Matt.
Not a quarter of the time tho, Pegasus, but the same time unless i have made a big mistake.
The GNR averaged over 60mph60kph; which equates to about 37 mph despite there being lots of islands to negotiate. That is fairly good even on a quiet N 125 which was mainly dual cariageway
Pity OC were so late apparantly informing the police.
ETA: amended to correct speed, which I had made an error on.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Anna on September 26, 2014, 10:46:45 PM
Yes Dianne first then Fiona from their statements.
"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. (DW)
"And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. I've already said earlier the shutters were very heavy. I didn't actually open the shutter in that room, we went, I went to the front of the house and I was trying to lift the shutter at the, at the back, just to prove whether, you know, whether it could have been opened and whether Madeleine could have opened it from the inside'.
00.50.31 1485 'And''
Reply 'I mean, it was fairly obviously, I think, that that wasn't what had happened and what could have happened'(FP)
Gerry tried the shutters too.
Volume IV, pages 891-903
Witness statement of Gerald Patrick McCann, on the 10th of May 2007, at 3.20 p.m. Location: CID Portimão
The deponent ran into the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open to one side, the shutters almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE's bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cots. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment.
Then he closed the shutters, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside. They continued with searches outside, around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW to go to the secondary reception in order to communicate the fact to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been abducted. He refutes, peremptorily, the possibility that MADELEINE could have left the apartment by her own means. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post524.html#p524
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2014, 02:58:40 AM
Sorry to disagree again, but I measure 9 KM not 12 KM Odiaxere to Valverde in 9 minutes.
I also thought that I read that Matt had gone about 5 to 10 minutes after the alarm was raised. Lets be generous to you and say 9 minutes. So they drove 9 Km (approx 5.6 miles) in the time that it took Matt to raise the alarm at the Reception?
That's pretty fair, imo. for Matt.
Not a quarter of the time tho, Pegasus, but the same time unless i have made a big mistake.
The GNR averaged over 60mph despite there being lots of islands to negotiate. That is pretty good even on a quiet N 125 which was mainly dual cariageway
Pity OC were so late apparantly informing the police.
The GNR patrol did the 12km from Odiaxere to PDL (OC reception on Rua Direita) in 10 minutes or less. Average speed 72km/h (45 mph) or more. After the alarm at 2200 there was about 40 minutes while no-one called the police, followed by a very speedy 10 minute response by the GNR.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2014, 03:13:10 AM
IIRC the first GNR patrol checked the shutters too (I think this is from one of the documentaries not the files, sorry don't have link)
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2014, 03:58:09 PM
IIRC the first GNR patrol checked the shutters too (I think this is from one of the documentaries not the files, sorry don't have link)
I can find no specific reference that the GNR officers physically checked the shutters; I think it possible that they correctly thought an observation without contact was appropriate; although there is no doubt that they searched the house and the outer areas in an effort to find the missing child.
They have been castigated for being 'careless' in their search of the apartment, opening cupboards etc. and perhaps destroying evidence in the process but imo the Portimao forensic team managed to do that without the assistance of the GNR.
I think the proof that they checked the back area lies in the unfortunate print left on one of the patio doors.
When questioned about the windows in the bedroom, he only remembers that the window in the girl's bedroom was closed with the blind raised up the space of the width of a hand. He does not remember the existence of curtains. The father indicated, through the translator, alleging that when the disappearance was discovered, the windows and blinds were open. José María Batista Roque Date: 17 – 10 – 2007
When questioned about the bedroom windows, he only remembers that blinds of the window of the girl’s bedroom were not totally closed. He does not remember about the existence of curtains or whether the window itself was closed. Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H45
When questioned he replies that he remembers that the blinds of the window of the child’s room were open, but inclined (the lower part, at about a hand’s width). He does not remember if the window was open or what the state of the curtains was. Antonio Henrique da Conceição Duarte Date: 2007/05/16
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2014, 06:57:39 PM
@brietta I think I heard that the first GNR patrol "checked the shutters", in an interview with a staff member in one of the documentary videos maybe panorama or dispatches or cuttingedge I will try to find it again.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Luz on September 29, 2014, 10:19:40 AM
The GNR patrol did the 12km from Odiaxere to PDL (OC reception on Rua Direita) in 10 minutes or less. Average speed 72km/h (45 mph) or more. After the alarm at 2200 there was about 40 minutes while no-one called the police, followed by a very speedy 10 minute response by the GNR.
You get a call in the GNR dispatch at 22:41 (length?), you check which team is closer, you call them and they arrive at 23:15.
Not so bad is it?
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 10:31:41 AM
If only someone, anyone, had phoned 112 ...IMMEDIATELY!
IIRC it was after around 5/10 mins that Gerry asked for the police to be called. As far as he and the others knew that had been done at reception. As it turns out it would appear that may not have been the case.
IMO it would not be a normal reaction to call the police IMMEDIATELY. If your child disappeared from view in a supermarket, do you immediately whip out your mobile and dial 999 or do you run around looking for your child first? It would only be when your child was not found that the police would be called - and it is absolutely credible IMO that that could be 5 or 10 mins after your child disappeared.
As someone who has travelled abroad several times, I had no idea that 112 was the emergency no. to ring - until I read it on this forum.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2014, 11:14:56 AM
If only someone, anyone, had phoned 112 ...IMMEDIATELY!
Just as a matter of interest, what would have happened to an International Emergency Call made by an English speaker in Portugal.
Do the operatives have (English\German\Dutch\ Russian\ Finnish\ Japanese etc.) translators immediately to hand to deal with the emergency?
In an emergency situation abroad ... if there was no-one with a command of English present I would dial 112 ... however were there a National who speaks English present, I would ask them to do so on my behalf ... particularly if that was a holiday complex or an hotel.
I have now learned that it would be advisable to stand over that person and ensure that the phone call was made as soon as requested ... no-one could have foreseen that Reception would fail to make a call to the police about a missing child as soon as it was reported.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: John on September 29, 2014, 11:21:04 AM
Just as a matter of interest, what would have happened to an International Emergency Call made by an English speaker in Portugal.
Do the operatives have (English\German\Dutch\ Russian\ Finnish\ Japanese etc.) translators immediately to hand to deal with the emergency?
In an emergency situation abroad ... if there was no-one with a command of English present I would dial 112 ... however were there a National who speaks English present, I would ask them to do so on my behalf ... particularly if that was a holiday complex or an hotel.
I have now learned that it would be advisable to stand over that person and ensure that the phone call was made as soon as requested ... no-one could have foreseen that Reception would fail to make a call to the police about a missing child as soon as it was reported.
The emergency control room can call on help from a variety of agencies if they are experiencing translation difficulties. As English was the most common foreign language on the Algarve there would not have been any difficulty. In any event, several staff offered to phone the police but were politely told it wasn't necessary.
I do agree about main reception, they were quite pathetic in the circumstances.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2014, 11:32:22 AM
The emergency control room can call on help from a variety of agencies if they are experiencing translation difficulties. As English was the most common foreign language on the Algarve there would not have been any difficulty. In any event, several staff offered to phone the police but were politely told it wasn't necessary.
I do agree about main reception, they were quite pathetic in the circumstances.
I believe offers were declined because it was thought the emergency call had already been made.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: DCI on September 29, 2014, 12:45:41 PM
Sylvia Baptista was called at 10.30pm by Robin Crossland. I find it really odd how much she was involved in all this. Seems like she was Head of maintenance, key holder, detective, translator and in on all the searches by Grime.
What police force would have a woman off the streets working on a police case, like this? &%&£(+
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2014, 12:56:37 AM
Sylvia Baptista was called at 10.30pm by Robin Crossland. I find it really odd how much she was involved in all this. Seems like she was Head of maintenance, key holder, detective, translator and in on all the searches by Grime.
What police force would have a woman off the streets working on a police case, like this? &%&£(+
She was not present when Eddie searched Casa Liliana, nor when Eddie searched Casa Vista Do Mar. She was present only at those searches for which she provided the keys. Also remember 5A 5B 5D 5H and 4G were possibly all occupied by other tourists on the day Eddie searched them, and their possesions were in those apartments. So she was probably involved in notifying and co-ordinating with those (up to five) tourist families and minimising the disruption to them.
Title: Re: A child abducted yet nobody thought to phone the police immediately?
Post by: Benice on September 30, 2014, 09:23:42 AM
Sylvia Baptista was called at 10.30pm by Robin Crossland. I find it really odd how much she was involved in all this. Seems like she was Head of maintenance, key holder, detective, translator and in on all the searches by Grime.
What police force would have a woman off the streets working on a police case, like this? &%&£(+
I've always thought that was odd. As a keyholder - I can understand her going along to open doors - but IIRC she was also allowed to go into the apartments during the search. Why?
This is the lady who also claimed to have seen Robert Murat on the 3rd - but failed to turn up at the 'confrontation meeting which was later arranged. AFAIK no reason was ever given.