Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on January 31, 2014, 11:41:19 AM
Title: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: John on January 31, 2014, 11:41:19 AM
The focus in the Madeleine McCann disappearance has now shifted to firmer employees of Ocean Club Garden who had access to keys to the apartments.
British police searching for missing Madeleine McCann want their Portuguese counterparts to search the homes and examine the bank accounts of three former employees of the resort where she vanished, it is reported.
Detectives from both countries are running their own investigations and a team from Scotland Yard made the request during meetings with Policia Judiciaria after flying to Portugal this week.
Police are keen to investigate the trio, who are believed to have been working at the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz where the McCanns were staying in 2007, the Daily Mirror said.
Officers reportedly believe they were behind a spate of burglaries in the weeks before three-year-old Madeleine disappeared.
(http://i.imgur.com/BLTxSQJ.jpg?1)
Former Ocean Club employee Nelson Rodrigues speaks to Sky's Martin Brunt.
Nelson Rodrigues, a barman at the Ocean Club at the time, told the Mirror a wide range of staff would have had access to rooms.
He said: "There were quite a few staff who had access to keys. Reception staff, the cleaners, and the maintenance men could all get into rooms. Waiters and barmen did not have access to keys.
"I remember at the time things belonging to guests went missing now and then. Mobile phones, cash, anything valuable lying around."
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: carlymichelle on January 31, 2014, 11:53:21 AM
geez sounds like portugal was buisy when the mcanns were staying there swathy men burglers and now employees getting the blame
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: John on January 31, 2014, 11:57:46 AM
It's beginning to sound like an inside job in more ways than one? >@@(*&) I wonder if the British and dual nationality employees who now live in the UK have been reinterviewed.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: The Singularity on January 31, 2014, 12:44:37 PM
Certainly an interesting development that the UK police have wanted to follow up. Certainly an angle worth investigating as it is plausible
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on January 31, 2014, 01:27:19 PM
Two burglary incidents days before in the same block. Three OC employees I found interesting to investigate more deeply, one of them with a previous record for theft ... I can not understand why some people can discarded this clue on a priori basis.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 01:31:30 PM
Two burglary incidents days before in the same block. Three OC employees I found interesting to investigate more deeply, one of them with a previous record for theft ... I can not understand why some people can discarded this clue a priori
Burglars dont steal children and your previous post about sexual offenders and murderers committing burglarly at the same time or having committed burglary in the past is nothng to do with child OR adult abductions IMO
I cannot understand why you cant see the difference and want to link these
>@@(*&)
Unless you are suggesting a burglar murdered Madeleine Mccann
Eta
Then again how many children have been murdered by burglars?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on January 31, 2014, 01:33:30 PM
Two burglary incidents days before in the same block. Three OC employees I found interesting to investigate more deeply, one of them with a previous record for theft ... I can not understand why some people can discarded this clue on a priori basis.
Nobody does, Heriberto, we're just questioning the constant hype (using the word hype diplomatically). It's the hype that makes people doubt this is anything other than the latest in a very long series of invented leads.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Estuarine on January 31, 2014, 01:59:35 PM
Nobody does, Heriberto, we're just questioning the constant hype (using the word hype diplomatically). It's the hype that makes people doubt this is anything other than the latest in a very long series of invented leads.
And how handy are a group of people with pass keys? That's why there was no evidence of a break in of course. And how incompetent were the Portuguese Police if they didn't cover this one in 2007? Bearing in mind the Met and the PJ remain schtum on this matter who is feeding this info to the media?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: The Singularity on January 31, 2014, 02:14:18 PM
Aren't Grange detectives giving regular press conferences, I was under the impression that this was routine given the nature of this investigation?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2014, 02:29:06 PM
It is obvious that some OC employees phones would be red hot that night. Why? - Because they are alerting their colleagues to come help with the search. To make these OC employees into burglars because their phones were red hot that night is a fallacy.
If SY start making all high volume phone users in hours/days after the disappearance into suspects they will be including some senior MW and BP and UK consulate and UK embassy peeps :)
Also before 10pm there are obviously calls/txts by MW/OC employees - there would be every night - a few are in the files - for example there are a few contacts between nannies - nothing suspicious about that - they are most likely just arranging where to meet during their evening off - and theres a call by an employee to his wife to say he'll be late home from work because a tourist lost their key or something - nothing wrong with that - conscientious employee IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on January 31, 2014, 02:32:16 PM
And how handy are a group of people with pass keys? That's why there was no evidence of a break in of course. And how incompetent were the Portuguese Police if they didn't cover this one in 2007? Bearing in mind the Met and the PJ remain schtum on this matter who is feeding this info to the media?
The January 3rd Mail article that began this latest frenzy could only have been written with close police involvement imo.
I think the Met have been briefing the press ever since >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on January 31, 2014, 02:44:24 PM
It is obvious that some OC employees phones would be red hot that night. Why? - Because they are alerting their colleagues to come help with the search. To make these OC employees into burglars because their phones were red hot that night is a fallacy.
If SY start making all high volume phone users in hours/days after the disappearance into suspects they will be including some senior MW and BP and UK consulate and UK embassy peeps :)
Also before 10pm there are obviously calls/txts by MW/OC employees - there would be every night - a few are in the files - for example there are a few contacts between nannies - nothing suspicious about that - they are most likely just arranging where to meet during their evening off - and theres a call by an employee to his wife to say he'll be late home from work because a tourist lost their key or something - nothing wrong with that - conscientious employee IMO.
Many of MW/OC employees said in their statements they knew about Madeleine abduction the next day May 4th. when they went to work. If they had phone calls with people who knew about the incident during the night (from 22:00 to 6:00 for example) it would be suspicious ...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 02:49:45 PM
Many of MW/OC employees said in their statements they knew about Madeleine abduction the next day May 4th. when they went to work. If they had phone calls during the night (from 22:00 to 6:00 for example) it would be suspicious ...
People having phone calls and/or during their time off work is suspicious?
Christ
You better not be in the vicinity when a crime happens, you could be a suspect!! For usng your phone or receiving calls from auntie edna
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 31, 2014, 02:57:49 PM
Many of MW/OC employees said in their statements they knew about Madeleine abduction the next day May 4th. when they went to work. If they had phone calls with people who knew about the incident during the night (from 22:00 to 6:00 for example) it would be suspicious ...
Thank you! That is exactly what I think!
But I think at least one is a woman!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 04:56:51 PM
People having phone calls and/or during their time off work is suspicious?
Christ
You better not be in the vicinity when a crime happens, you could be a suspect!! For usng your phone or receiving calls from auntie edna
No, but if they said in their interview that they never heard of Madeleine's disappearance until the next day when they turned to work and their phone record show they had calls to their mobile phone from at least one colleague who was at search or two of them and if these calls were long then here you go or if their phones were mapped to the near apartment at the time when they said they weren't there what would one think.. why they were lying..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on January 31, 2014, 05:24:24 PM
No, but if they said in their interview that they never heard of Madeleine's disappearance until the next day when they turned to work and their phone record show they had calls to their mobile phone from at least one colleague who was at search or two of them and if these calls were long then here you go or if their phones were mapped to the near apartment at the time when they said they weren't there what would one think.. why they were lying..
Yes, but why should you think this might be the case ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Anna on January 31, 2014, 05:29:12 PM
Many of MW/OC employees said in their statements they knew about Madeleine abduction the next day May 4th. when they went to work. If they had phone calls with people who knew about the incident during the night (from 22:00 to 6:00 for example) it would be suspicious ...
I can already hear the giggles in court if a barrister ever uses that argument.
It was on TV in the morning 8(0(*
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 06:16:19 PM
No, but if they said in their interview that they never heard of Madeleine's disappearance until the next day when they turned to work and their phone record show they had calls to their mobile phone from at least one colleague who was at search or two of them and if these calls were long then here you go or if their phones were mapped to the near apartment at the time when they said they weren't there what would one think.. why they were lying..
Youre veering dangerously close to fantasy there
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 06:30:44 PM
What you call the fantasy I call a basic detective work.
It is up to the detectives to verify the witness statements. If for example I said that yesterday I was in Paris but my phone pings makes it obvious I was in London then it is obvious I am lying.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on January 31, 2014, 06:32:04 PM
What you call the fantasy I call a basic detective work.
It is up to the detectives to verify the witness statements. If for example I said that yesterday I was in Paris but my phone pings makes it obvious I was in London then it is obvious I am lying.
Not if you didn't take it with you.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
What you call the fantasy I call a basic detective work.
It is up to the detectives to verify the witness statements. If for example I said that yesterday I was in Paris but my phone pings makes it obvious I was in London then it is obvious I am lying.
Paris and london are far away and PDL to PDL is zero distance
Even if phne records have been searched for everyone in PDL on the night, whch I find unbelievable for starters, how they can link anyone who made a call to being a searcher let alone..oh never mind, cant be bothered, as I said fantasy
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Anna on January 31, 2014, 06:50:12 PM
What you call the fantasy I call a basic detective work.
It is up to the detectives to verify the witness statements. If for example I said that yesterday I was in Paris but my phone pings makes it obvious I was in London then it is obvious I am lying.
I know what you mean Not all the workers lived in PDL. However I would have thought 8.30 to 9.30/10 would have been the time to check for pings and I know of 3 peopple, one of which was a woman who were around the apartments that night. Did you have someone in mind that could have been involved with the abduction of the child ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on January 31, 2014, 06:50:46 PM
Paris and london are far away and PDL to PDL is zero distance
Even if phne records have been searched for everyone in PDL on the night, whch I find unbelievable for starters, how they can link anyone who made a call to being a searcher let alone..oh never mind, cant be bothered, as I said fantasy
Certainly clutching at straws
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 06:51:29 PM
Paris and london are far away and PDL to PDL is zero distance
Even if phne records have been searched for everyone in PDL on the night, whch I find unbelievable for starters, how they can link anyone who made a call to being a searcher let alone..oh never mind, cant be bothered, as I said fantasy
You are being arrogant here..
You have no clue how many phone masts are in the PDL..
And I am talking out of an experience.. I worked with searching data a lot .. similar to this search of phone numbers..
If say a number said he was at home which was near to church and his phone at the time pinged a mast near OC then he is lying.
Then if this phone is in correspondence with three other numbers..one of which met our searched phone somewhere and the second number never appeared in the near area again than this is highly significant.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 06:58:48 PM
You have no clue how many phone masts are in the PDL..
And I am talking out of an experience.. I worked with searching data a lot .. similar to this search of phone numbers..
I say a number said he was at home which was near to church and his phone at the time pinged a mast near OC then he is lying.
Then if this phone is in correspondence with three other numbers..one of which met our searched phone somewhere and the second number never appeared in the near area again than this is highly significant.
No not arrogant at all, just dont believe this whole phone story and that SY checked whether somene was sitting on the loo or in their front room rather than being up the road etc and if they phoned one or ten of their mates that night and suspicions arise from THAT....oh and of course SY know whch of them were burglars...bloody nonsense
You have no clue how many phone masts are in the PDL..
And I am talking out of an experience.. I worked with searching data a lot .. similar to this search of phone numbers..
If say a number said he was at home which was near to church and his phone at the time pinged a mast near OC then he is lying.
Then if this phone is in correspondence with three other numbers..one of which met our searched phone somewhere and the second number never appeared in the near area again than this is highly significant.
I think we know how the system works, but it is based on the assumption that the guilty parties are carrying phones. This might work in mobile phone obsessed Britain, but may not be the same everywhere else. No one could trace my movements, for example, for the simple reason that I don't carry or use a mobile phone.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 07:21:13 PM
Actually I just found that PDL has two mobile phone masts. Both served by TMN Portugal network.
So, there are at least two masts ( towers) and if the data is old even better..
I used http://opensignal.com/ site for searching for towers
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Estuarine on January 31, 2014, 07:27:12 PM
With only two towers and 2007 technology you would just about be able to pinpoint a phone to within 1.5 km2. Provided it's on and not a pay as you go. This isn't Person of Interest or NCIS 8(>((
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 07:39:38 PM
With only two towers and 2007 technology you would just about be able to pinpoint a phone to within 1.5 km2. Provided it's on and not a pay as you go. This isn't Person of Interest or NCIS 8(>((
I don't agree. It is not 2007s technology, it is today's technology on 2007s data. Plus it is a police technology.
Why it matters if it was pay as you go? The phone is not going to be used only once..it has contacts, and some of the contacts are not pay as you go. Easy to trace.
What if for example they have a terror suspect who's just flown to Spain and is gone to a little village there.. I think police is equipped for such cases and this equipment can be used here..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 31, 2014, 07:45:10 PM
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2014, 08:16:57 PM
IMO in 2007 the PJ (with help from at least one top Met phone forensics expert) did get full phone data for PDL from the landline company and from all 3 mobile companies, for several days including 3rd May, the request letters are in the files.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 08:22:45 PM
IMO in 2007 the PJ (with help from at least one top Met phone forensics expert) did get full phone data for PDL from the landline company and from all 3 mobile companies, for several days including 3rd May, the request letters are in the files.
What for everyone in PDL at the time? Dont think so...was just the tapas 9
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Estuarine on January 31, 2014, 08:37:17 PM
I don't agree. It is not 2007s technology, it is today's technology on 2007s data. Plus it is a police technology.
Why it matters if it was pay as you go? The phone is not going to be used only once..it has contacts, and some of the contacts are not pay as you go. Easy to trace.
What if for example they have a terror suspect who's just flown to Spain and is gone to a little village there.. I think police is equipped for such cases and this equipment can be used here..
You mean we are time traveling backwards with modern technology to work out where a phone was in 2007. Pay as you go is not traceable to an individual. A lot of us use them.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on January 31, 2014, 08:39:50 PM
You mean we are time traveling backwards with modern technology to work out where a phone was in 2007. Pay as you go is not traceable to an individual. A lot of us use them.
Dr who is the next suspect!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: LagosBen on January 31, 2014, 08:48:08 PM
All points to the original investigators not doing their jobs properly.
Jump on me if you like but it is true.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on January 31, 2014, 08:49:47 PM
I can't believe that after nearly three years, and having spent over seven million pounds, Scotland Yard are no further forward than nvestigating Ocean club employees and petty thieves ... none of whom are directly implicated in Madeleine's disappearance
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 08:52:28 PM
IMO in 2007 the PJ (with help from at least one top Met phone forensics expert) did get full phone data for PDL from the landline company and from all 3 mobile companies, for several days including 3rd May, the request letters are in the files.
I can't believe that after nearly three years, and having spent over seven million pounds, Scotland Yard are no further forward than nvestigating Ocean club employees and petty thieves ... none of whom are directly implicated in Madeleine's disappearance
I think that if you read the files about who or what the PJ & Co looked into it gets to a point then -----ends with nothing resolved. At least that is how a lot of things looked to me. So it is a shame that Scotland Yard are having to re look at everything -that is where the time has gone imo obviously.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 09:09:02 PM
You mean we are time traveling backwards with modern technology to work out where a phone was in 2007. Pay as you go is not traceable to an individual. A lot of us use them.
Phone data was collected back in 2007. As you said recently that you haven't followed this case from the beginning allow me to say that I did follow it closely from the day one - until now. And this was all since the very first news on Steve Huffs 's Crime blog. How do you think otherwise the SY would be able to go through the phone calls now? The phone data would be received from the data centres and mobile data would be collected from the masts ( towers) This is the basics any police investigation would do and it is already been known and reported that the data collection of this sort happened in this investigation. As the time passes the methods of analysis might be more sophisticated but the data records don't change much.
Re pay as you go phones, I am not sure if you are clever enough to understand this but for the police search in this case it doesn't really matter if the phones were pay as you go. It would matter only if ( for example) the user was found in vicinity of PDL and 5A but his phone was bought say in Amsterdam three days prior to this phone making the fist ping to the mast in PDL and never used after that. But even in this case police would have means to trace the phone, to say a mast at an airport with the CCTV and similar. Nobody really gets unnoticed in our technology world unless they don't use the technology at all..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 31, 2014, 09:29:57 PM
What is the success rate of SY in solving reported crimes ?
Any idea how efficient they are compared to other forces ?
P.S. Haven't you noticed the lack of any positive forensic analysis in this case ?
Or has that escaped your attention too ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2014, 09:33:06 PM
What for everyone in PDL at the time? Dont think so...was just the tapas 9
All calls/txts to/from mobiles via PDL masts of all 3 mobile networks, plus all calls to/from PDL landlines, for several days IMO. Request letters are in the files. Some of the data is in the files.
For example in files are ALL mobile calls and txts from PDL masts to PDL masts (every mobile, not just T9) complete with numbers (mainly portuguese mobiles plus a few german and UK mobiles) and call durations, for the period around JT sighting, and for the period around Smith sighting.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 09:44:50 PM
What is the success rate of SY in solving reported crimes ?
Any idea how efficient they are compared to other forces ?
P.S. Haven't you noticed the lack of any positive forensic analysis in this case ?
Or has that escaped your attention too ?
And phone data analysis is not a part of forensics?????
All modern famous crime cases have been solved using the technology which includes the dna analysis and the dna analysis is only a part of the forensics science. CCTV analysis, computer analysis .. are all part of the forensics.
For example: Joran Van Der Sloot caught on hotel CCTV camera entering the hotel with the girl he killed in Peru.. caught on the CCTV exiting the room where he just killed the girl Vincent Tabak killer of Joana Yeates, caught by his phone masts being on a bridge he had to pass to place her body where it was found. Later found his google earth search for the place where the body was had been before the police annonced where the body was.. Murder of Meredith Kercher - DNA of Amanda Cox found on the knife blade and DNA of Amanda's boyfriend found on the Meredith's bra.
In Madeleine's case the most helpful would be the CCTV images which don't exist.
The thoughtful phone data analysis for the area at the time of her disappearance is the police's best bet at the moment.
Agatha Christie should be forgotten! In our modern world everyone of us leaves the digital fingerprints everywhere we go.. and this is the most useful in any crime case at the moment!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on January 31, 2014, 09:53:24 PM
IMO its ironic that phone records are being used to target innocent employees whose numbers were not redacted by the UK phone analysts in 2007 who did however redact (blank out) various numbers of high up UK people from the records presented in the files, including that guy who called twice during ride to Fatima. I support the employees. Honest hard working people IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2014, 10:09:03 PM
And phone data analysis is not a part of forensics?????
All modern famous crime cases have been solved using the technology which includes the dna analysis and the dna analysis is only a part of the forensics science. CCTV analysis, computer analysis .. are all part of the forensics.
For example: Joran Van Der Sloot caught on hotel CCTV camera entering the hotel with the girl he killed in Peru.. caught on the CCTV exiting the room where he just killed the girl Vincent Tabak killer of Joana Yeates, caught by his phone masts being on a bridge he had to pass to place her body where it was found. Later found his google earth search for the place where the body was had been before the police annonced where the body was.. Murder of Meredith Kercher - DNA of Amanda Cox found on the knife blade and DNA of Amanda's boyfriend found on the Meredith's bra.
In Madeleine's case the most helpful would be the CCTV images which don't exist.
The thoughtful phone data analysis for the area at the time of her disappearance is the police's best bet at the moment.
Agatha Christie should be forgotten! In our modern world everyone of us leaves the digital fingerprints everywhere we go.. and this is the most useful in any crime case at the moment!
To be fair, most use of phone data is as corroborative evidence when a suspect has been identified to prove that someone's phone was in an area. Alternatively as a means to find a missing person who had a phone.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on January 31, 2014, 10:32:35 PM
To be fair, most use of phone data is as corroborative evidence when a suspect has been identified to prove that someone's phone was in an area. Alternatively as a means to find a missing person who had a phone.
In the UK phone records data is used on regular basis in courts, in different forms on all different kinds of cases.
And the European Union has a regulation which is requesting that phone companies hold the phone and internet data of an individual for a certain period of time.. not sure how long it is now.. I think it is 7 years.. but I might be wrong.
The intelligence agencies have a different approach.. they collect the metadata in row form.. recently reported for in all Snowden saga that they recover any call of any person in the world. And it was also reported in the Guardian that the UK has access to this American data.. whether this would be legal this is questionable.. I am not going to go further into this story but there are ways ...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2014, 10:37:04 PM
In the UK phone records data is used on regular basis in courts, in different forms on all different kinds of cases.
And the European Union has a regulation which is requesting that phone companies hold the phone and internet data of an individual for a certain period of time.. not sure how long it is now.. I think it is 7 years.. but I might be wrong.
The intelligence agencies have a different approach.. they collect the metadata in row form.. recently reported for in all Snowden saga that they recover any call of any person in the world. And it was also reported in the Guardian that the UK has access to this American data.. whether this would be legal this is questionable.. I am not going to go further into this story but there are ways ...
If you are suggesting that the NSA has the contents of all the calls and texts in PDL around that time, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 31, 2014, 10:43:39 PM
Unless you want to use that data to prove you weren't using a phone whilst driving as alleged by a policeman.
All of a sudden that data isn't accurate to prove your innocence.
This is usually caught by a camera?
IMO phone data from the data centre cannot be inaccurate.. it has to collaborate with towers .. but your own phone can give you the wrong time because the phone time is set up locally on your phone.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 31, 2014, 11:26:20 PM
Nobody does, Heriberto, we're just questioning the constant hype (using the word hype diplomatically). It's the hype that makes people doubt this is anything other than the latest in a very long series of invented leads.
That's the problem with hype, Lyall, isn't it. It makes people cynical.
That's no reason not to give this particular theory the critical credit it deserves.
If we need to dismiss the theory, reasons for that will become clear.
Sloppy thinking to dismiss things just because we're getting tired.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 01, 2014, 02:51:22 AM
Well yes, we do know that there is nothing that directly implicates these former Ocean Club employees in Madeleine's disappearance
We know it because no arrests were made
Had Redwood and his officers produced evidence that these characters were 'directly' involved in the disappearance of the missing child, then, of course, the Portuguese police would be compelled to take immediate action
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 01, 2014, 05:42:24 AM
Well yes, we do know that there is nothing that directly implicates these former Ocean Club employees in Madeleine's disappearance
We know it because no arrests were made
Had Redwood and his officers produced evidence that these characters were 'directly' involved in the disappearance of the missing child, then, of course, the Portuguese police would be compelled to take immediate action
I read yesterday that there are a few diligences that the Portuguese authorities still have to do within the framework of the letter of request before these suspects are questioned. So we're not quite there yet...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 07:41:47 AM
And phone data analysis is not a part of forensics?????
All modern famous crime cases have been solved using the technology which includes the dna analysis and the dna analysis is only a part of the forensics science. CCTV analysis, computer analysis .. are all part of the forensics.
For example: Joran Van Der Sloot caught on hotel CCTV camera entering the hotel with the girl he killed in Peru.. caught on the CCTV exiting the room where he just killed the girl Vincent Tabak killer of Joana Yeates, caught by his phone masts being on a bridge he had to pass to place her body where it was found. Later found his google earth search for the place where the body was had been before the police annonced where the body was.. Murder of Meredith Kercher - DNA of Amanda Cox found on the knife blade and DNA of Amanda's boyfriend found on the Meredith's bra.
In Madeleine's case the most helpful would be the CCTV images which don't exist.
The thoughtful phone data analysis for the area at the time of her disappearance is the police's best bet at the moment.
Agatha Christie should be forgotten! In our modern world everyone of us leaves the digital fingerprints everywhere we go.. and this is the most useful in any crime case at the moment!
and what does the phone data show at that time ?
Zip.
other than people were using their phones.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 01, 2014, 08:12:33 AM
Madeleine McCann detectives probe phone calls made by workers at Portuguese holiday complex on night she disappeared
Three workers at the holiday complex where Madeleine McCann was last seen made an abnormally high number of calls “outside the resort” on the night she went missing.
A police source said: “Unlike their colleagues who called each other as the search proceeded, the three made domestic calls to areas of no geographic interest to the search.”
Scotland Yard detectives have asked for them to be interrogated, their bank accounts probed and their homes searched.
Police regard the three as prime suspects and may be working on a theory that the three-year-old was taken after disturbing burglars in her family’s Algarve apartment while parents Kate and Gerry were at a tapas restaurant on the site.
They would have known the layout of Praia da Luz Ocean Club and would have been required to make statements after Madeleine disappeared in May 2007.
It is thought a team of detectives led by Oporto-based missing persons specialist Helena Monteiro has found shortcomings in the original inquiry. Her squad are believed to want to speak to a number of people who have not been questioned before.
Ms Monteiro is working independently from a second branch of Portuguese detectives in Faro who are helping Scotland Yard with their inquiries. The Met Police refused to comment.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 08:21:10 AM
Madeleine McCann detectives probe phone calls made by workers at Portuguese holiday complex on night she disappeared
Three workers at the holiday complex where Madeleine McCann was last seen made an abnormally high number of calls “outside the resort” on the night she went missing.
A police source said: “Unlike their colleagues who called each other as the search proceeded, the three made domestic calls to areas of no geographic interest to the search.”
Scotland Yard detectives have asked for them to be interrogated, their bank accounts probed and their homes searched.
Police regard the three as prime suspects and may be working on a theory that the three-year-old was taken after disturbing burglars in her family’s Algarve apartment while parents Kate and Gerry were at a tapas restaurant on the site.
They would have known the layout of Praia da Luz Ocean Club and would have been required to make statements after Madeleine disappeared in May 2007.
It is thought a team of detectives led by Oporto-based missing persons specialist Helena Monteiro has found shortcomings in the original inquiry. Her squad are believed to want to speak to a number of people who have not been questioned before.
Ms Monteiro is working independently from a second branch of Portuguese detectives in Faro who are helping Scotland Yard with their inquiries. The Met Police refused to comment.
More hot air.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 08:34:01 AM
of course amaral is one of the most disgusting having made 1 million pounds out of the affair...quite disgusting...hopefully he will lose the lot
Why is that important to you? Lots of people have made money out of Madeleine's disappearance - why does he incense you so much?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 01, 2014, 09:44:46 AM
I did ask yesterday, but it probably got lost in the bumpf.
Do we actually have an official source for the 3 burglars/co workers? Is any of this actually confirmed or is Andy Redwoods' last word still Smithman?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 09:57:26 AM
I haven't read any official confirmation of 'burglars', merely 'people of interest'. It seems to be all carefully constructed spin, with official statement intermingled with imagination to make it appear all official.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 10:27:30 AM
Why is that important to you? Lots of people have made money out of Madeleine's disappearance - why does he incense you so much?
Amaral was a professional...as a policeman he has a duty to the public...he let Maddie and the MCCanns down.. Journalists are just doing there job...we have to have a relatively free press for lots of reasons
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 10:33:05 AM
Amaral was a professional...as a policeman he has a duty to the public...he let Maddie and the MCCanns down.. Journalists are just doing there job...we have to have a relatively free press for lots of reasons
That all may be so, but you haven't answered the question why it seems to bother you so much that he has made money from his book.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 10:33:11 AM
Amaral was a professional...as a policeman he has a duty to the public...he let Maddie and the MCCanns down.. Journalists are just doing there job...we have to have a relatively free press for lots of reasons
Please get it right.
The mccanns let Madeleine down through their selfishness and incompetence as parents.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 10:36:12 AM
Amaral was a professional...as a policeman he has a duty to the public...he let Maddie and the MCCanns down.. Journalists are just doing there job...we have to have a relatively free press for lots of reasons
It couldn't possibly be the sign of a weak mind if it came from me
Your own fantasticness would come over better if you knew the difference between there and their
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 11:27:47 AM
I did ask yesterday, but it probably got lost in the bumpf.
Do we actually have an official source for the 3 burglars/co workers? Is any of this actually confirmed or is Andy Redwoods' last word still Smithman?
Hard to say where exactly the three burglars info actually came from at this point.
It is certainly the case that DCI Redwood has made no official comment on the investigation since the crimewatch 'update' episode, in which there was no mention of any burglars.
Note that some of the press are claiming that SY have been working on information relating to the burglaries for over eighteen months now.
So it is also a question why Crimewatch chose to feature only Smithman and not the burglars.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 01, 2014, 10:27:27 PM
Hard to say where exactly the three burglars info actually came from at this point.
It is certainly the case that DCI Redwood has made no official comment on the investigation since the crimewatch 'update' episode, in which there was no mention of any burglars.
Note that some of the press are claiming that SY have been working on information relating to the burglaries for over eighteen months now.
So it is also a question why Crimewatch chose to feature only Smithman and not the burglars.
The source for this all could be the same man who told Martin Brunt few days ago that the Scotland Yard interviewed him about the burglaries 18 months ago..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 01, 2014, 10:34:30 PM
The source for this all could be the same man who told Martin Brunt few days ago that the Scotland Yard interviewed him about the burglaries 18 months ago..
Could be..
Certainly sounds like it was a resident. OC seem to have been unforthcoming with regard to the burglaries.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 01, 2014, 11:07:00 PM
I think the source of the burglary gone wrong stories in the press is Heriberto Janosch
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Estuarine on February 01, 2014, 11:08:05 PM
In Crimewatch they mentioned the fact that there had been a spate of burglaries.
But there was certainly no mention of the three burglars whom they want to investigate personally.
That's true, but it's not a big step from what was said in Crimewatch to what was said in the Mail really. Heriberto, for instance, goes from talking about one person in his blog to more than one when speaking to James Murray. It's easy.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 12:20:21 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this man to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one. Also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries. I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first man.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 12:21:52 AM
That's true, but it's not a big step from what was said in Crimewatch to what was said in the Mail really. Heriberto, for instance, goes from talking about one person in his blog to three people when speaking to James Murray. It's easy.
It's easy, but when you throw Smithman into the situation it gets more complicated.
I'd still like to know why Smithman took centre stage in October when the burglars were being investigated - or at least preliminaries were taking place regarding their investigation - nearly eighteen months before hand.
Any why SY have been happy to talk publicly about Smithman and update us with regard to all the calls received about him, yet they will make 'no running commentary' with regard to anything else.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 12:23:22 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this man to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one. Also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries. I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first man.
You mean Smithman?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 12:24:20 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this man to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one. Also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries. I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first man.
How would he do that? If he opened the window and didn't pass through it then how did he take Madeleine out of the apartment?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 02, 2014, 12:26:10 AM
It's easy, but when you throw Smithman into the situation it gets more complicated.
I'd still like to know why Smithman took centre stage in October when the burglars were being investigated - or at least preliminaries were taking place regarding their investigation - nearly eighteen months before hand.
Any why SY have been happy to talk publicly about Smithman and update us with regard to all the calls received about him, yet they will make 'no running commentary' with regard to anything else.
Spin 8)-))) Or reputation management (the Met's, and JT's).
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 02, 2014, 12:27:07 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this man to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one. Also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries. I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first man.
Did you go to the British press with your theory Heriberto ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 12:27:16 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this OC employee to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one (and also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries). I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first OC employee, and an indirect reference to one of the other two OC employees closely related to the first one.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 02, 2014, 12:29:42 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this man to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one. Also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries. I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first man.
You can give us more information now, it's already been in the papers 8)-)))
Which direct reference in Crimewatch?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 12:29:57 AM
How did he catch Madeleine - has he got 10 foot long arms?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 12:34:49 AM
My theory is simple: An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this OC employee to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013. I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one (and also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries). I said those people must be investigated, if not yet. In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first OC employee, and an indirect reference to one of the other two OC employees.
Opening the window and shutter from outside (as you correctly deduce IMO) surely indicates the person did NOT use a key. This indicates IMO that the person did NOT have a key.
Once one recognises this person did NOT have a key, the only reason for presuming it was an employee is gone, and it is more likely to be a non-employee with no key IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 02, 2014, 12:39:09 AM
Opening the window and shutter from outside (as you correctly deduce IMO) surely indicates the person did NOT use a key. This indicates IMO that the person did NOT have a key.
Once one recognises this person did NOT have a key, the only reason for presuming it was an employee is gone, and it is more likely to be a non-employee with no key IMO.
I think this OC employee may have not a 5A key ...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 12:40:47 AM
Opening the window and shutter from outside (as you correctly deduce IMO) surely indicates the person did NOT use a key. This indicates IMO that the person did NOT have a key.
Once one recognises this person did NOT have a key, the only reason for presuming it was an employee is gone, and it is more likely to be a non-employee with no key IMO.
It is odd I agree that an employee would attempt to enter from the window - but perhaps Heriberto has another reason for believing the person was an employee that he cannot divulge...
Not all staff would have keys...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 12:42:46 AM
It is odd I agree that an employee would attempt to enter from the window - but perhaps Heriberto has another reason for believing the person was an employee that he cannot divulge...
I think this OC employee may have not a 5A key ... I have another reason but it is not possible to tell without revealing the OC employee name.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 02, 2014, 12:47:25 AM
Thanks. Madeleine would go to the window thinking it was her parents who opened the window? Do her parents usually open the window outside in the dark? I don't think so. Madeleine would squeeze past the two cots and go the window in that dark room? Then climb on top of the bed so the abductor can easily pick her up and take her away leaving no trace of window evidence - Madeleine kicking and screaming when she realises it's not her parents (Madeleine was very loud). No she would be scared and would go straight into the living room and hide behind the sofa.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 02, 2014, 12:51:28 AM
@Heriberto I agree with you not naming your suggested employee who you state definitely has a criminal record for theft. Are you absolutely sure of that criminal record? Are you certain that it is the same person, and not some other person with same name (in full or part). Portuguese names we know can be long. Does the entire name (every forename and every family name) match?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 12:52:38 AM
Thanks. Madeleine would go to the window thinking it was her parents who opened the window? Do her parents usually open the window outside in the dark? I don't think so. Madeleine would squeeze past the two cots and go the window in that dark room? Then climb on top of the bed so the abductor can easily pick her up and take her away leaving no trace of window evidence - Madeleine apparently kicking and screaming when she realises it's not her parents. No she would be scared and would go straight into the living room and hide behind the sofa.
I find this part hard to understand as well. At the age of almost four, she's not going to stand passively and compliantly and let stranger or someone she barely knows lift her up and take her out of a window.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 12:57:11 AM
Madeleine did not sleep in the bed next to the window. She slept in the bed next to the doors.
Madeleine's bed hasn't been messed up as if she was awake. When children are awake in bed, they mess up their beds.
According to Gerry's statement, he saw her sleeping silently. And Matt Oldfield although he did not see Madeleine he did not hear any noise which would suggest Madeleine was awake.
Now the doors: 1. Left ajar 2. found wider open by Gerry at 9.05 and Gerry returns the doors to 'ajar' 3. Matt saw other two kids in cots and claims there was a light in the room enough for him to see them and this suggests that at the time of Matt's visit the shutter was raised but the window not open. Suggests the doors open more than 'ajar'. There was no draft and curtains were not moving. 4. Kate finds the doors open at 10pm and also shutter open and window open and the curtains wide open.
If Madeleine was taken just by opening the window and picking her up how do you explain the doors movement, the light difference and the window being left open?
IMO the person was in this room all of this time and was hiding in Madeleine's wardrobe.
IMO he was afraid to exit, as there were constant movements.
IMO the window was opened from inside and the shutter too.. for him to pass Madeleine through the window to someone.
Now the Smiths sighting and if it was Madeleine my question is which side of the man body the girls head was leaning to? Right or left? Anyone remembers this?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 01:01:23 AM
That's the bottom line in this case. For any abductor to do this they have to explain the open window that nobody went through and that includes Madeleine. If you had a key or entered via unlocked patio door you wouldn't waste time or take the risk in opening noisy shutters and window. They can't explain that open window in a realistic way so they have to separate the open window (opportunist burglar who fled with unbelievable timing) from the actual abduction.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 01:02:14 AM
I do not know if it is well explained:
An Ocean Club employee may have opened the window to steal, and caught Madeleine for fear of being recognized. I reported this OC employee to Scotland Yard Operation Grange and PJ Oporto team in June 2013 (he had a previous record for theft). I also reported two more OC employees who may be closely related to the first one (and also reported a fourth OC employee who may know about the burglaries).
I said those people must be investigated, if not yet.
In Crimewatch of October 2013 was a direct reference to this first OC employee, and a direct reference to one of the other two OC employees closely related to the first one.
The first one may have not a 5A key.
Good night, Heri.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 01:06:07 AM
Thanks for sharing Henri but I don't know how opening a window can = to Madeleine being taken. He would need to be inside to catch her. Why don't you think he didn't have a key?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 01:10:35 AM
Madeleine did not sleep in the bed next to the window. She slept in the bed next to the doors.
Madeleine's bed hasn't been messed up as if she was awake. When children are awake in bed, they mess up their beds.
According to Gerry's statement, he saw her sleeping silently. And Matt Oldfield although he did not see Madeleine he did not hear any noise which would suggest Madeleine was awake.
Now the doors: 1. Left ajar 2. found wider open by Gerry at 9.05 and Gerry returns the doors to 'ajar' 3. Matt saw other two kids in cots and claims there was a light in the room enough for him to see them and this suggests that at the time of Matt's visit the shutter was raised but the window not open. Suggests the doors open more than 'ajar'. There was no draft and curtains were not moving. 4. Kate finds the doors open at 10pm and also shutter open and window open and the curtains wide open.
If Madeleine was taken just by opening the window and picking her up how do you explain the doors movement, the light difference and the window being left open?
IMO the person was in this room all of this time and was hiding in Madeleine's wardrobe.
IMO he was afraid to exit, as there were constant movements.
IMO the window was opened from inside and the shutter too.. for him to pass Madeleine through the window to someone.
Now the Smiths sighting and if it was Madeleine my question is which side of the man body the girls head was leaning to? Right or left? Anyone remembers this?
No reference to right or left, but the arms were down the side of the child's body rather than around the man's neck.
This I always found odd. Wouldn't a child normally cling on to the parent? Even if asleep or half asleep?
Is this the position of someone who has been knocked out?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 02, 2014, 01:13:38 AM
Quote from: pathfinder73
Thanks. Madeleine would go to the window thinking it was her parents who opened the window? Do her parents usually open the window outside in the dark? I don't think so. Madeleine would squeeze past the two cots and go the window in that dark room? Then climb on top of the bed so the abductor can easily pick her up and take her away leaving no trace of window evidence - Madeleine kicking and screaming when she realises it's not her parents (Madeleine was very loud). No she would be scared and would go straight into the living room and hide behind the sofa.
Quote from: Sherlock Holmes
I find this part hard to understand as well. At the age of almost four, she's not going to stand passively and compliantly and let stranger or someone she barely knows lift her up and take her out of a window.
I suggest please do not reject the exellent and IMO correct first part of Heriberto's theory (a would-be petty thief opens window and shutter from outside). IMO continue from it with insistence on common sense. No way would a child walk to the window.
A petty thief, thinking no-one is home, opens window and shutter from outside. What happens next? Childs wakes and runs into lounge or other bedroom. Petty thief disturbed by seeing/hearing totally unexpected occupant flees empty handed, never enters.
So there you have part one. It does not by itself explain the disappearance , but crucially it totally alters the situation, and from that very altered situation work out part two (with the petty thief gone and playing no further part). What happens next? Everything just IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 01:14:48 AM
No reference to right or left, but the arms were down the side of the child's body rather than around the man's neck.
This I always found odd. Wouldn't a child normally cling on to the parent? Even if asleep or half asleep?
Is this the position of someone who has been knocked out?
Her head was on Smithman's left shoulder. Knocked out? Far worse than that I'm afraid when he was seen running for his life and wouldn't even acknowledge them when he was spoken too.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 01:19:34 AM
Her head was on Smithman's left shoulder. Knocked out? Far worse than that I'm afraid when he was seen running for his life and wouldn't even acknowledge them when he was spoken too.
Is it plausible he could have suffocated her by putting his hand over her mouth whilst outside the window? Is that in any way possible?
It is hard to imagine any kind of struggle taking place with him outside and her inside, unless he was very strong and swift. Could it happen?
Heriberto knows more than he's letting on remember....
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 01:26:26 AM
Nevermind. I was thinking if the child was passed through the window than her head now would now be leaning his right side..
You would go straight out the door rather than trying to squeeze past cots and then open the window. It's nonsense to even think about doing all that crap in the dark - noisy shutters lol. When you can go straight out the door in a flash.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 01:28:25 AM
You would go straight out the door rather than trying to squeeze past cots and then open the window. It's nonsense to even think about doing all that crap in the dark - noisy shutters lol. When you can go straight out the door in a flash.
But what if he had to open that window? If he was there waiting for someone to pass Madeleine and the one he was waiting for was not turning up? The patio door wasn't the safe exit if he was to carry Madeline out?do And same time he had to check whether someone was turning up on the front doors?
I think opening of the window was a desperate act of someone who was frustrated waiting in the childrens room..
Maybe even waiting in that room with dead Madeleine. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 01:35:11 AM
But what if he had to open that window? If he was there waiting for someone to pass Madeleine and the one he was waiting for was not turning up? The patio door wasn't the safe exit if he was to carry Madeline out?do And same time he had to check whether someone was turning up on the front doors?
I think opening of the window was a desperate act of someone who was frustrated waiting in the childrens room..
Maybe even waiting in that room with dead Madeleine. 8(8-))
Very interesting , VIXTE
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 01:36:14 AM
But what if he had to open that window? If he was there waiting for someone to pass Madeleine and the one he was waiting for was not turning up? The patio door wasn't the safe exit if he was to carry Madeline out?do And same time he had to check whether someone was turning up on the front doors?
I think opening of the window was a desperate act of someone who was frustrated waiting in the childrens room..
Maybe even waiting in that room with dead Madeleine. 8(8-))
Wouldn't use the patio door to exit. Would be straight out front door. No need to waste time with window risk of leaving evidence. In apartment open door collect Madeleine out through door. Other person could be watching at door. Window was wide open. Front door was back more hidden.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 01:43:59 AM
Wouldn't use the patio door to exit. Would be straight out front door. No need to waste time with window risk of leaving evidence. In apartment open door collect Madeleine out through door. Other person could be watching at door. Window was wide open. Front door was back more hidden.
But what if he was waiting for someone with car?
He wouldn't be waiting for it standing in front of the front doors holding Madeleine?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 01:46:44 AM
By the time he opened the shutters and window he could be in and out and in the car.
But what if he did not have a car. If he was waiting for someone with a car? With a closed shutter he had no ways of seeing when this car has turned up?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 01:54:29 AM
But what if he did not have a car. If he was waiting for someone with a car? With a close shutter he had no ways of seeing when this car has turned up?
Mobile Phone?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 01:57:36 AM
If he's experienced hiding in the room first during the Gerry's check-up and then Matt's check-up by this time he's going to be quite frustrated and frightened and using the phone, with lights or sounds would be quite risky.
Anyway, this would be the "burglary gone wrong".. he's there to steal something and he ends up accidentally killing the child.. calls for help and the help is not coming.. during this time Gerry and Matt come.. the burglar is out of his mind.. this kind of scenario I am talking about..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 02:00:59 AM
If he's experienced hiding in the room first during the Gerry's check-up and then Matt's check-up by this time he's going to be quite frustrated and frightened and using the phone, with lights or sounds would be quite risky.
Hmmm
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 02:02:31 AM
But then if he was for that long in the room he'd leave some DNA trace I guess..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 02:05:25 AM
But then if he was for that long in the room he'd leave some DNA trace I guess..
That was destroyed when the world and his dog trapsed through the apartment in the coming days..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 02, 2014, 02:14:13 AM
Why would he wait inside an apartment - maybe he wanted to get caught? That is crazy talk. Time to get real. If it happened he would be in and out in a flash. That open window was the first sign of a set up when no evidence was found of anybody passing through it. They couldn't work out why an abductor would open it and then not use it for entry or exit 8-)(--) Red herrings and other BS exist in the fantasy world not in a realistic situation. They need to separate it from the abductor to an opportunist burglar who struck at the same time believe it or not 8)-)))
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 02:23:02 AM
Why would he wait inside an apartment - maybe he wanted to get caught? That is crazy talk. Time to get real. If it happened he would be in and out in a flash. That open window was the first sign of a set up when no evidence was found of anybody passing through it. They couldn't work out why an abductor would open it and then not use it for entry or exit 8-)(--) Red herrings and other BS exist in the fantasy world not in a realistic situation. They need to separate it from the abductor to an opportunist burglar who struck at the same time believe it or not 8)-)))
What you're suggesting doesn't necesarily contradict the idea of the three burglars.
There is nothing so far to say that they were working collaboratively at this point. They could have been working on separate operations to do with 5A.
Given the apartment's vulnerability, not so far fetched.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 02, 2014, 03:10:07 AM
There is an example in the UK of a burglar hiding about 12? hours in a wardrobe and yes that includes while police where in the room >@@(*&) Can probably dig out a link if required. But in this PDL case all the evidence IMO indicates the burglar never got as far as climbing in the window. Now what might be the reason for that?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 02, 2014, 03:15:11 AM
There is an example in the UK of a burglar hiding about 12? hours in a wardrobe and yes that includes while police where in the room >@@(*&) Can probably dig out a link if required. But in this PDL case all the evidence IMO indicates the burglar never got as far as climbing in the window. Now what might be the reason for that?
... because there was no burglar ?
... because the window was opened in order to 'stage' a break-in ?
That might be a reason
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 05:20:02 AM
I think the source of the burglary gone wrong stories in the press is Heriberto Janosch
What about the claim, in several articles making reference to the three burglars, that the McCanns have been 'buoyed' by recent developments.
That surely can only have come from a source near to the McCanns.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 02, 2014, 06:57:04 AM
JEEZ give me a break....
PDL is now renowned for the epicentre of the criminal world and mind.........
They should change their holiday advertising.
Thomas B. Cook - AMAZING PRAIA DA LUZ HOLIDAYS....tired of carrying that heavy swag bag?
Then why not come to beautiful Portugal and just relax for a 7 nights, self catering holiday. We have an apartment located in the centre of picturesque Praia da Luz, with kids pool and playground, tennis and a spa.
While away your nights in our Tapas Bar, or one of the many local restaurants.
Extra optionals.
Praia Da Luz is ripe for easy pickings, so if you fancy a bit of moonlighting whilst you are enjoying your holiday, you will find many apartments containing booty and bounty, like passports, cameras and laptops all there for the easy picking.
Its known that in Ocean View people feel so safe they even leave the doors open for you to just step in side and take what you want.
So dont delay, hurry today, and book your busmans holiday. Its only a click away....(Swag bag optional).
Cost: 360.00 7 Nights, Self Catering from Luton with Monarch Scheduled Airlines on 03.05.14 Transfer time: from airport: approx. 2hrs 45mins.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: stephen25000 on February 02, 2014, 07:08:26 AM
PDL is now renowned for the epicentre of the criminal world and mind.........
They should change their holiday advertising.
Thomas B. Cook - AMAZING PRAIA DA LUZ HOLIDAYS....tired of carrying that heavy swag bag?
Then why not come to beautiful Portugal and just relax for a 7 nights, self catering holiday. We have an apartment located in the centre of picturesque Praia da Luz, with kids pool and playground, tennis and a spa.
While away your nights in our Tapas Bar, or one of the many local restaurants.
Extra optionals.
Praia Da Luz is ripe for easy pickings, so if you fancy a bit of moonlighting whilst you are enjoying your holiday, you will find many apartments containing booty and bounty, like passports, cameras and laptops all there for the easy picking.
Its known that in Ocean View people feel so safe they even leave the doors open for you to just step in side and take what you want.
So dont delay, hurry today, and book your busmans holiday. Its only a click away....(Swag bag optional).
Cost: 360.00 7 Nights, Self Catering from Luton with Monarch Scheduled Airlines on 03.05.14 Transfer time: from airport: approx. 2hrs 45mins.
Nice one. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 01:38:13 PM
There is an example in the UK of a burglar hiding about 12? hours in a wardrobe and yes that includes while police where in the room >@@(*&) Can probably dig out a link if required. But in this PDL case all the evidence IMO indicates the burglar never got as far as climbing in the window. Now what might be the reason for that?
the idea that a burglar/abductor was hiding in the kids wardrobe both on gerry and matts check is farcical beyond belief...in any case, the cot was blocking the wardrobes...he would have to.....oh never mind!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 02:08:25 PM
I think we have to wait for the next official statements ...
We have two high instances working:
CPS (Alison Saunders and Jenny Hopkins). PGR (Joana Marques Vidal and Jose Magalhaes e Menezes).
We have two review/active groups:
SY Operation Grange (Andy Redwood). PJ Oporto team (Helena Monteiro).
We have two more task groups:
PJ Faro (Luis Manuel Maia Mota Carmo). PJ Portimão (Ana Laura Rito).
One line is SY ===> CPS ===> PGR ===> PJ Faro/PJ Portimão/SY. The other line is PGR ===> PJ Oporto.
Will they all make a Joint Investigation Team (JIT)? That will be the logical step.
We have no official info yet, neither from the Oporto team actions (case reopened) nor from SY actions (the 1st. and 2nd. rogatory letters) ...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 02:11:52 PM
Criminal prosecution service uk is for prosecuting britons is it not?
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 02:15:17 PM
Well, we have SY statements and PGR reopening the case in 2013 ... And Crimewatch TV program, October 2013, which shows interesting things, believe me ...
BTW, not all OC employees participated in the searches, and many said they knew about the crime the next morning when they went to work ... Most interesting if some of them had phone calls during the night by people who may knew about the crime at the time ...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 02:19:13 PM
But what if the 'burglar' who was also a member of staff found himself in the flat.. thinking it would be an easy pick of few valuables. Let's say he entered 9.00, just before Gerry went in. At this point he hid in children's bedroom, behind the doors. At this point he wanted to exit, but he was NO LONGER SURE IF THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE APARTMENT. As he was standing there, Gerry already left but the burglar did not know this. He felt trapped. Madeleine wakes up. Looks at him and recognises him. She is about to scream, he catches her and puts his hand over her mouth. At this point Matt Oldfield enters, unaware of anything going on he stood in front of the bedroom while 'the burglar' was standing behind the door, still holding Madeleine's mouth not to scream. Burglar is now not sure whether Matt is still there.. he even doesn't know it was Matt.. he doesn't know if the people are still at the apartment. At this point he realises Madeleine in his hands is no longer moving, and suspects she might be dead. He cannot leave the body there, it is a risk of being caught. He has no car and not sure what to do, he contacts someone close to him who has a car. Now waiting for the person to turn up, he opens the window and checks. Once he saw the car there, he quickly passes Madeleine through the window. Maybe even he exits through the window.
The other scenario is similar but this time Madeleine is alive and unconscious. This is the ' taken by order' scenario.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 02:29:25 PM
But what if the 'burglar' who was also a member of staff found himself in the flat.. thinking it would be an easy pick of few valuables. Let's say he entered 9.00, just before Gerry went in. At this point he hid in children's bedroom, behind the doors. At this point he wanted to exit, but he was NO LONGER SURE IF THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE APARTMENT. As he was standing there, Gerry already left but the burglar did not know this. He felt trapped. Madeleine wakes up. Looks at him and recognises him. She is about to scream, he catches her and puts his hand over her mouth. At this point Matt Oldfield enters, unaware of anything going on he stood in front of the bedroom while 'the burglar' was standing behind the door, still holding Madeleine's mouth not to scream. Burglar is now not sure whether Matt is still there.. he even doesn't know it was Matt.. he doesn't know if the people are still at the apartment. At this point he realises Madeleine in his hands is no longer moving, and suspects she might be dead. He cannot leave the body there, it is a risk of being caught. He has no car and not sure what to do, he contacts someone close to him who has a car. Now waiting for the person to turn up, he opens the window and checks. Once he saw the car there, he quickly passes Madeleine through the window. Maybe even he exits through the window.
The other scenario is similar but this time Madeleine is alive and unconscious. This is the ' taken by order' scenario.
Ever thought of writing to mills and boon as a new novelist vixte?? Lol
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 02, 2014, 02:37:30 PM
Well, we have SY statements and PGR reopening the case in 2013 ... And Crimewatch TV program, October 2013, which shows interesting things, believe me ...
BTW, not all OC employees participated in the searches, and many said they knew about the crime the next morning when they went to work ... Most interesting if some of them had phone calls during the night by people who may knew about the crime at the time ...
Of course they knew next morning - the town was full of police and it was on TV.
Who couldn't have known?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 02, 2014, 02:40:14 PM
Well, we have SY statements and PGR reopening the case in 2013 ... And Crimewatch TV program, October 2013, which shows interesting things, believe me ...
BTW, not all OC employees participated in the searches, and many said they knew about the crime the next morning when they went to work ... Most interesting if some of them had phone calls during the night by people who may knew about the crime at the time ...
Only interesting thing I saw on Crimewatch was Kirsty, otherwise it was of a similar standard to Madeleine Was Here (with similar objective I think). You'll have to explain if you want us (and James Murray) to follow what you mean (without explanation it's just the same as fantasy).
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 02:43:06 PM
But what if the 'burglar' who was also a member of staff found himself in the flat.. thinking it would be an easy pick of few valuables. Let's say he entered 9.00, just before Gerry went in. At this point he hid in children's bedroom, behind the doors. At this point he wanted to exit, but he was NO LONGER SURE IF THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE APARTMENT. As he was standing there, Gerry already left but the burglar did not know this. He felt trapped. Madeleine wakes up. Looks at him and recognises him. She is about to scream, he catches her and puts his hand over her mouth. At this point Matt Oldfield enters, unaware of anything going on he stood in front of the bedroom while 'the burglar' was standing behind the door, still holding Madeleine's mouth not to scream. Burglar is now not sure whether Matt is still there.. he even doesn't know it was Matt.. he doesn't know if the people are still at the apartment. At this point he realises Madeleine in his hands is no longer moving, and suspects she might be dead. He cannot leave the body there, it is a risk of being caught. He has no car and not sure what to do, he contacts someone close to him who has a car. Now waiting for the person to turn up, he opens the window and checks. Once he saw the car there, he quickly passes Madeleine through the window. Maybe even he exits through the window.
The other scenario is similar but this time Madeleine is alive and unconscious. This is the ' taken by order' scenario.
All this in a window of what 5 minutes..........There were so many people walking about, dont forget the dad taking his child from or to the creche at 9.15 as well that JT clocked, oh yes and Gerry and Jez were sat about talking, and I would imagine other people were about too.
Also there wasnt much room in the childrens room, a bed by the wall, 2 cots one against the wardrobe door, and a partridge in a pear tree lol....
Nah its too complicated. The longer the person stays in there the more chances of leaving traces which there was non of......and why take the child....for what purpose. IF they were frightened the dead child would give them away with DNA, then the fact is the burglar wasnt wearing gloves, which means he/she should have left finger prints everywhere. IF they took the time to wipe them, then there would be no prints for the GNR to collect, and they would have KNOWN there had been a perb in the apartment.
Its all so CIS you know....
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 02, 2014, 02:56:26 PM
At this rate, we'll soon have involved most of the indigenous population of PDL
Why not anyne and everyne has been fair game to date from pdl to timbuktu
Just make sure you were nowhere within 200 miles of the vicinity that night, didnt make too many phone calls, never nicked a bob, never smoked a joint, wast seen lurking six months earlier and tying your shoelaces or going round raising money for charity with a creepy face, dont carry your blonde daughter on yur back if you live in morocco and have dark hair or take her out for a walk in belgium either past the cctv cos shes blonde and 4 and you are not blonde,even if yure her bona fide nanny, never have a dolly in the back of your car either if youre a cleaner ,it suggests you could be culpable luring kids in, and god forbid always use clearasil for them spots and never ever just stand there and admire / stare at the bugainvilia or have a chain smoking habit and mess up a balcony with fag ends cos you MIGHT be watchng and waiting really to abduct a kid, and dont "look" like Madeleine either if you live in NZ or anywhere else, you will get dna tested to prove you are your parents child, remeber all that and you should be ok if youre innocent
just to be sure dont put down on your cv you worked there at any time in the last ten years either! Cos any of that will get your pic in the papers saying "is this the beast"
oh and thats just a tenth of the shenanigans
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 02, 2014, 03:29:15 PM
heriberto to you heriberto to you heriberto, mr murray heriberto to you
8**8:/:
(I'm bored @)(++(*)
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 02, 2014, 03:31:38 PM
8((()*/ Why not anyne and everyne has been fair game to date from pdl to timbuktu
Just make sure you were nowhere within 200 miles of the vicinity that night, didnt make too many phone calls, never nicked a bob, never smoked a joint, wast seen lurking six months earlier and tying your shoelaces or going round raising money for charity with a creepy face, dont carry your blonde daughter on yur back if you live in morocco and have dark hair or take her out for a walk in belgium either past the cctv cos shes blonde and 4 and you are not blonde,even if yure her bona fide nanny, never have a dolly in the back of your car either if youre a cleaner ,it suggests you could be culpable luring kids in, and god forbid always use clearasil for them spots and never ever just stand there and admire / stare at the bugainvilia or have a chain smoking habit and mess up a balcony with fag ends cos you MIGHT be watchng and waiting really to abduct a kid, and dont "look" like Madeleine either if you live in NZ or anywhere else, you will get dna tested to prove you are your parents child, remeber all that and you should be ok if youre innocent
just to be sure dont put down on your cv you worked there at any time in the last ten years either! Cos any of that will get your pic in the papers saying "is this the beast"
oh and thats just a tenth of the shenanigans
8((()*/ 8)-))) 8)-))) 8)-))) spot on hun. Its becoming ludicrous....to the extreme.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 03:43:20 PM
All this in a window of what 5 minutes..........There were so many people walking about, dont forget the dad taking his child from or to the creche at 9.15 as well that JT clocked, oh yes and Gerry and Jez were sat about talking, and I would imagine other people were about too.
Also there wasnt much room in the childrens room, a bed by the wall, 2 cots one against the wardrobe door, and a partridge in a pear tree lol....
Nah its too complicated. The longer the person stays in there the more chances of leaving traces which there was non of......and why take the child....for what purpose. IF they were frightened the dead child would give them away with DNA, then the fact is the burglar wasnt wearing gloves, which means he/she should have left finger prints everywhere. IF they took the time to wipe them, then there would be no prints for the GNR to collect, and they would have KNOWN there had been a perb in the apartment.
Its all so CIS you know....
yes there were lots of people around which makes it just as unlikely that the McCannns could remove Maddie from the app....but someone did...lets hope SY can get closer to the truth
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 03:47:22 PM
8((()*/ Why not anyne and everyne has been fair game to date from pdl to timbuktu
Just make sure you were nowhere within 200 miles of the vicinity that night, didnt make too many phone calls, never nicked a bob, never smoked a joint, wast seen lurking six months earlier and tying your shoelaces or going round raising money for charity with a creepy face, dont carry your blonde daughter on yur back if you live in morocco and have dark hair or take her out for a walk in belgium either past the cctv cos shes blonde and 4 and you are not blonde,even if yure her bona fide nanny, never have a dolly in the back of your car either if youre a cleaner ,it suggests you could be culpable luring kids in, and god forbid always use clearasil for them spots and never ever just stand there and admire / stare at the bugainvilia or have a chain smoking habit and mess up a balcony with fag ends cos you MIGHT be watchng and waiting really to abduct a kid, and dont "look" like Madeleine either if you live in NZ or anywhere else, you will get dna tested to prove you are your parents child, remeber all that and you should be ok if youre innocent
just to be sure dont put down on your cv you worked there at any time in the last ten years either! Cos any of that will get your pic in the papers saying "is this the beast"
oh and thats just a tenth of the shenanigans
Well not surprisingly I disagree...this is how crimes are solved...by interviewing lots and lots of people and most normal people don't mind as far as I am aware...
I referred to a case yesterday where every male who lived within a certain distance of a murder were asked voluntarily to give a dna sample...they didn't whinge...they did it...and this led to the capture of the murderer..he obviously tried to avoid giving a sample
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 03:51:20 PM
yes there were lots of people around which makes it just as unlikely that the McCannns could remove Maddie from the app....but someone did...lets hope SY can get closer to the truth
Just as unlikely? Well, if you accept that, you must understand why they are suspects in some minds.....
Also, if they were the ones to move Madeleine, it's not quite just as unlikely, cause you can remove Gerry's movements around the resort as an obstacle to her being taken. In fact, using that premise, it's actually more likely, as he would've had a slightly larger time frame to move in.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 02, 2014, 06:06:27 PM
UK universal Juristiction.
Quote
The United Kingdom has ‘universal jurisdiction’ over a small number of serious offences, which means a person accused of committing these crimes in another country can be brought to justice in our courts.
Offences covered by universal jurisdiction include certain war crimes, torture and hostage-taking and, under UK law, anyone can apply to the courts for an arrest warrant to ensure those guilty of these crimes abroad face justice here.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 06:06:46 PM
Just as unlikely? Well, if you accept that, you must understand why they are suspects in some minds.....
Also, if they were the ones to move Madeleine, it's not quite just as unlikely, cause you can remove Gerry's movements around the resort as an obstacle to her being taken. In fact, using that premise, it's actually more likely, as he would've had a slightly larger time frame to move in.
I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If they were suspects why no police at the moment is arresting them? Plenty of police TEAMS ATM to do so!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 02, 2014, 06:59:41 PM
I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If they were suspects why no police at the moment is arresting them? Plenty of police TEAMS ATM to do so!
I have no clue what you're trying to say here.
I actually don't, so I can't follow it up with a statement that proves the opposite, as you did.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 08:04:58 PM
But what if the 'burglar' who was also a member of staff found himself in the flat.. thinking it would be an easy pick of few valuables. Let's say he entered 9.00, just before Gerry went in. At this point he hid in children's bedroom, behind the doors. At this point he wanted to exit, but he was NO LONGER SURE IF THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE APARTMENT. As he was standing there, Gerry already left but the burglar did not know this. He felt trapped. Madeleine wakes up. Looks at him and recognises him. She is about to scream, he catches her and puts his hand over her mouth. At this point Matt Oldfield enters, unaware of anything going on he stood in front of the bedroom while 'the burglar' was standing behind the door, still holding Madeleine's mouth not to scream. Burglar is now not sure whether Matt is still there.. he even doesn't know it was Matt.. he doesn't know if the people are still at the apartment. At this point he realises Madeleine in his hands is no longer moving, and suspects she might be dead. He cannot leave the body there, it is a risk of being caught. He has no car and not sure what to do, he contacts someone close to him who has a car. Now waiting for the person to turn up, he opens the window and checks. Once he saw the car there, he quickly passes Madeleine through the window. Maybe even he exits through the window.
The other scenario is similar but this time Madeleine is alive and unconscious. This is the ' taken by order' scenario.
I'm still not sure about this 'recognition' idea, either.
Why would a person whom Madeleine would recognise risk entering her apartment or lifting the window and scaring her?
And how did she display her recognition? Wasn't there an idea out there that if she recognised the person, she would be likely to be more compliant?
And if for the sake of argument she recognised the person but still cried or screamed out of shock at seeing him in this context, how would the intruder ( / window-lifter) know whether her reaction was one of recognition or fear? In other words what would make him sure that he had been reconised? It was dark, Madeleine would have been half asleep and probably quite confused, and if he was outside the building, he would only be partially visible to her.
So how would this 'recognition' and Madeleine's display of it actually work?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 08:16:15 PM
PDL is now renowned for the epicentre of the criminal world and mind.........
They should change their holiday advertising.
Thomas B. Cook - AMAZING PRAIA DA LUZ HOLIDAYS....tired of carrying that heavy swag bag?
Then why not come to beautiful Portugal and just relax for a 7 nights, self catering holiday. We have an apartment located in the centre of picturesque Praia da Luz, with kids pool and playground, tennis and a spa.
While away your nights in our Tapas Bar, or one of the many local restaurants.
Extra optionals.
Praia Da Luz is ripe for easy pickings, so if you fancy a bit of moonlighting whilst you are enjoying your holiday, you will find many apartments containing booty and bounty, like passports, cameras and laptops all there for the easy picking.
Its known that in Ocean View people feel so safe they even leave the doors open for you to just step in side and take what you want.
So dont delay, hurry today, and book your busmans holiday. Its only a click away....(Swag bag optional).
Cost: 360.00 7 Nights, Self Catering from Luton with Monarch Scheduled Airlines on 03.05.14 Transfer time: from airport: approx. 2hrs 45mins.
It's very funny what you're saying, columbo, (and redblossom), but the fact is that a crime of gross proportions did occur that night in Praia da Luz - whatever exactly that crime ( or crimes ) may have been.
A number of crimes also took in the resort prior to that night. They may or may not be connected with Madeleine's disappearance, but they happened.
I would suspect that in any given place there is probably a great deal of petty crime - and worse - going on at any one time, it's just that we're not focusing on it. We only focus on what impacts us directly or what is covered by the media. Out of sight out of mind.
We know for a fact that security and various other kinds of protocols at the OC were exceptionally lax, and it is likely that this situation has been exploited by employees and others.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 08:58:44 PM
It's very funny what you're saying, columbo, (and redblossom), but the fact is that a crime of gross proportions did occur that night in Praia da Luz - whatever exactly that crime ( or crimes ) may have been.
A number of crimes also took in the resort prior to that night. They may or may not be connected with Madeleine's disappearance, but they happened.
I would suspect that in any given place there is probably a great deal of petty crime - and worse - going on at any one time, it's just that we're not focusing on it. We only focus on what impacts us directly or what is covered by the media. Out of sight out of mind.
We know for a fact that security and various other kinds of protocols at the OC were exceptionally lax, and it is likely that this situation has been exploited by employees and others.
Sporadic petty theft, not aggravated or armed robbery or worse....I fail to see the dots linking that to child abduction or murder...too many to be tenable but thats JMO
Eta I also find it unbelievable that they not only left their apartment open at night but locked durng the day ??? but also went round telling people they didnt know from Adam they were leaving their kids alone.....who does that? Who feels so safe and secure and is so naive, but still, they felt there was no issue of safety at all. Just one of those things I cant get my head round.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 09:21:00 PM
Sporadic petty theft, not aggravated or armed robbery or worse....I fail to see the dots linking that to child abduction or murder...too many to be tenable but thats JMO
I didn't say there were dots.
We don't yet know whether the burglaries and breaking of enterings had anything to do with Madeleine or not.
Nonetheless, these crimes took place, as did the crimes surrounding the disappearance of Madeline. And the latter were exceptionally serious crimes, whatever they may have been.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 09:39:07 PM
We don't yet know whether the burglaries and breaking of enterings had anything to do with Madeleine or not.
Nonetheless, these crimes took place, as did the crimes surrounding the disappearance of Madeline. And these were exceptionally serious crimes, whatever they may have been.
For days now people have been trying to make connections between the two, saying its entirely plausible petty thieves may be involved one way or another, giving theories left right and centre of how , when and who, and what may or may not have happened, some citing reams off google to show how burglars can also be sex offenders and murderers (double or triple crime at a time) etc....(not abductors though note)... my apologies then.
But anyway to say these theft crimes took place now and again in PDL as well as a chld disappearance, once, of which no one knows what crime occurred, implies a connection or you are left with a meaningless vacuum.
I also note you said these were exceptionally serious crimes that surrounded the disappearance, hence you seem to be connecting more than the one crime of eg abduction as petty theft is not a serious crime, so what other crime? Just noting, not asking for a reply.
I think I have posted my views on ths subject several times, and intend to leave it there before I waffle on anymore.
eta lets not forget of course there may have been no crime at all by any stranger if there was an accident
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 09:46:27 PM
A appreciate your addition of the video clip here, red.
Yes, there are a lot of apparent contradictions with regard to how and why the children were left, and the explanations given for those things by the McCanns.
I don't want to go round and round the garden again with this discussion, but it does pertain to the thread relation to one of the things that has come up regularly on this forum, namely the thought that the McCanns and other holiday makers were lulled into a false sense of safety and security because they were on holiday at a resort.
As a (relatively new and inexperienced ) parent, and also as someone who has lived in other countries for periods of time (two continental European countries for periods of four and five years respectively, and six years spent in the Middle East) as well as having visited different places as a tourist, I often think about what it would have felt like to be in that particular resort as a parent, with all the similarities and differences it contained compared to being at home in Britain.
I ask myself if I would ever consider leaving my children in this way if I had never heard of Madeleine's situation; if I could be lulled into a false sense of security as apparently were the McCanns, and in all honesty I imagine that I probably could be. On holiday, a person is much more relaxed about most things and takes liberties he would not take at home. On the other hand it can be daunting being in a new place, though this was a resort, and many of the things one normally has to work out in a foreign country would be taken care of in that setting. Would one be thinking about crime, be it burglary or anything else? Probably not. Especially if everything had been done by Mark Warner to create the impression that everything in the garden was rosy.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 09:53:32 PM
For days now people have been trying to make connections between the two, saying its entirely plausible petty thieves may be involved one way or another, giving theories left right and centre of how , when and who, and what may or may not have happened, some citing reams off google to show how burglars can also be sex offenders and murderers (double or triple crime at a time) etc....(not abductors though note)... my apologies then.
But anyway to say these theft crimes took place now and again in PDL as well as a chld disappearance, once, of which no one knows what crime occurred, implies a connection or you are left with a meaningless vacuum.
I also note you said these were exceptionally serious crimes that surrounded the disappearance, hence you seem to be connecting more than the one crime of eg abduction as petty theft is not a serious crime, so what other crime?
I think I have posted my views on ths subject several times, and intend to leave it there before I waffle on anymore.
I agree red that perhaps a lot of these discussions have been far too speculative. At the end of the day we have few actual facts in front of us.
Just to clarify with regarding the crimes (plural), I meant that, forgetting any theory linking burglars, there could still have been more than one serious crime that took place that night. An abduction plain and simple might be classed as a single crime, but a cover-up of a murder or accident followed by concealment of a body would constitute several serious crimes.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 10:03:35 PM
I agree red that perhaps a lot of these discussions have been far too speculative. At the end of the day we have few actual facts in front of us.
Just to clarify with regarding the crimes (plural), I meant that, forgetting any theory linking burglars, there could still have been more than one serious crime that took place that night. An abduction plain and simple might be classed as a single crime, but a cover-up of a murder or accident followed by concealment of a body would constitute several serious crimes.
Oh I see, thank you, I misunderstood.In Portugal apparently that (accident and concealment) would not have been a heinous crime or par with any long prison sentence, if I have read properly, but dont quote me!
Re the safety issue we will have to disagree. Whether at home or abroad, I see no difference myself and sorry, no holiday company can "lull" a parent to do anything, they wouldnt do nrmally, in fact, MW provided childcare, they didnt tell holidaymakers, its ok to leave your little uns on their own! But yes lets not go round that circle again.
8)--))
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 10:08:13 PM
Oh I see, thank you, I misunderstood.In Portugal apparently that (accident and concealment) would not have been a heinous crime or par with any long prison sentence, if I have read properly, but dont quote me!
Re the safety issue we will have to disagree. Whether at home or abroad, I see no difference myself and sorry, no holiday company can "lull" a parent to do anything, they wouldnt do nrmally, in fact, MW provided childcare, they didnt tell holidaymakers, its ok to leave your little uns on their own! But yes lets not go round that circle again.
8)--))
At the risk of going round and round, red, I should add that I don't think leaving them was right. It was a grave mistake. I was just asking myself if I could be capable of such a mistake, and I have to say in all honesty that very possibly I could have been.
I personally would have admitted to it, however...
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 02, 2014, 10:18:13 PM
Tin hat on, bunkered down
1. OC employee, at least one, on the team, quite possibly all of them OC employees and also quite possibly burglars.
2. Three team members, including someone who Madeleine knew. One the co-ordinator, watcher getaway driver. One the lifter. One bundleman.
3. Madeleines name known (Mrs Carolyn Carpenters statement - "Madeleine Madeleine" whispered murmured). Name used, therefore Madeleine was alive.
4. Madeleine kept for a period, at least, at the OC Staff quarters, just up the road from the first Smith sighting in Rua D'Escola. According to the 3A's a scream was heard coming from there.
5. And a sensible reason given for the pick up car NOT to pick up.
"sadies theory" covers all these criteria .... and also the possible reasons for the window to have been open
Maybe Heris idea of a man leaning and lifting a standing Madeleine out is correct ?
Maybe SH's theory is correct ?
Maybe sadies theory is correct ?
..... and who knows some of the other theories might be correct as well.
But two things are certain, sadies theory really needs 3 people and reinforces the passing of Madeleine from the lifter to bundleman, and the necessary arm change. Explained before.
Sadies theory needs at least one OC person, maybe more amongst its team numbers, and that person would likely be someone (a woman?) who Madeleine knew and trusted. sadies theory involved entrance and exit via the very hidden and very dark area by the front door.
"Heris theory" ... is feasible, if Madeleine knew the person outside the window and if they said they had come to fetch her to go to be with Mummy and Daddy ... or they had some nice sweeties, etc. she might well go across there and willingly be carried out. I am troubled by this theory tho, because why would three peeps be needed ? ... also most people are right handed and would naturally, I think, tend to place a childs head on their right arm. Bundleman carried on his left arm. And Amaral said that there were no fibres, nor finger prints, except for Kates. Difficult to do with no trace evidence remaining, I would have thought, but maybe a rapid, but thorough cleaning operation took place ?
I am sorry Sherlock, but I cannot find your theory to ponder over.
..... goading comment removed .....
What I am certain of, is that Heri must be congratulated for his immaculate. methodical and thorough approach to this mystery. When he examines things he does it in the most critical and searching way possible. Seems SY think so too 8@??)( 8@??)( ?{)(**
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 10:27:13 PM
Whichever way you slice it, Sadie, it is some such theory that SY are looking into at the moment.
Cynics disagree but I like to think that that's because they have a real reason for doing so - not because they've nothing better to do.
Regarding Heriberto's theory, I am puzzled by the idea of Madeleine recognising someone.
Why would someone who knew Madeleine risk revealing his identity by lifting the window and scaring her, or entering the apartment? Why would he be the one elected to perform this part of the operation?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 02, 2014, 10:30:32 PM
A appreciate your addition of the video clip here, red.
Yes, there are a lot of apparent contradictions with regard to how and why the children were left, and the explanations given for those things by the McCanns.
I don't want to go round and round the garden again with this discussion, but it does pertain to the thread relation to one of the things that has come up regularly on this forum, namely the thought that the McCanns and other holiday makers were lulled into a false sense of safety and security because they were on holiday at a resort.
As a (relatively new and inexperienced ) parent, and also as someone who has lived in other countries for periods of time (two continental European countries for periods of four and five years respectively, and six years spent in the Middle East) as well as having visited different places as a tourist, I often think about what it would have felt like to be in that particular resort as a parent, with all the similarities and differences it contained compared to being at home in Britain.
I ask myself if I would ever consider leaving my children in this way if I had never heard of Madeleine's situation; if I could be lulled into a false sense of security as apparently were the McCanns, and in all honesty I imagine that I probably could be. On holiday, a person is much more relaxed about most things and takes liberties he would not take at home. On the other hand it can be daunting being in a new place, though this was a resort, and many of the things one normally has to work out in a foreign country would be taken care of in that setting. Would one be thinking about crime, be it burglary or anything else? Probably not. Especially if everything had been done by Mark Warner to create the impression that everything in the garden was rosy.
Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?
Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!
That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.
Are you still going to go out for dinner now?
That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 02, 2014, 10:37:41 PM
Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?
Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!
That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.
Are you still going to go out for dinner now?
That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.
I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday 'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.
I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.
Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.
Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.
Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 02, 2014, 10:47:58 PM
I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday 'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.
I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.
Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.
Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.
Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!
It really riles me that people claim they were within the realms of responsible parenting because they felt safe! It completely negates the children's right to feel safe. If any of those children woke up (and we've been told that Madeleine did at least once) then they are going to have felt very unsafe indeed.
No matter how secure I've felt in any environment, I've never forgotten that I'm a Mum.
Before I'm accused of portraying myself as a 'perfect parent' I've made many mistakes, but they were honest ones. They were the kind of trial and error mistakes that every parent makes, cause none of us are perfect.
Forgetting that your child may wake up in a strange place all alone and frightened is so far outside my idea of a 'mistake' that it's incomprehensible.
Anyway, I have the school run in the morning so I need my bed.
Nos da pawb
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Estuarine on February 02, 2014, 10:49:35 PM
I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday 'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.
I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.
Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.
Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.
Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!
Whatever the name or perceived social status there is NO excuse for leaving kids under 4 on their own. The alleged basic thrust that some barrister said it was within the bounds of responsible parenting is bollocks as it flies in the face of NSPCC guidelines. Yes I know guidelines aren't law but as NSPCC would be considered the "authority" you would need a damn good reason for ignoring it when push comes to shove. I can think of reasons why they did it; we are in a foreign and we will get away with it.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 02, 2014, 10:52:50 PM
Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?
Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!
That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.
Are you still going to go out for dinner now?
That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.
1. Next to a swimming pool? Wrong. The Tapas group was next to a swimming group. Madeleine was NOT unless she could climb 5 foot walls.
2. The half hour check is an old established checking system thought thoroughly acceptable for decades. Butlins/Pontins did a simple listening check. Smart hotels did a similar check. No longer tho ... not since Madeleine disappeared. The Mccanns checks were visual at half hour intervals + there was an additional listening one by Matt. Additionally the Tapas outdoor restaurant was only 50 metres away and in sight. Madeleine was a noisy and bold child. Had she come out of those patio doors she would have immediately seen her parents in the lighted restauarnt and yelled.
Our house had a 50 metre back garden and we had no problems hearing our children yell when we were beyond the small orchard and talking to friends/neighbours over the back fence. A mother, maybe a father too, is tuned into the sounds of her childs cry and will hear it above all else.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 02, 2014, 10:55:26 PM
Whichever way you slice it, Sadie, it is some such theory that SY are looking into at the moment.
Cynics disagree but I like to think that that's because they have a real reason for doing so - not because they've nothing better to do.
Regarding Heriberto's theory, I am puzzled by the idea of Madeleine recognising someone.
Why would someone who knew Madeleine risk revealing his identity by lifting the window and scaring her, or entering the apartment? Why would he be the one elected to perform this part of the operation?
But if it were a she, or even a he, who Madeleine knew well, would it scare her ? Especially if the person said that mummy had sent her to fetch her ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 11:14:49 PM
I'm saying that perhaps I would forget about some of these safety issues if I were in holiday 'mode'. I might be able to convince myself that checking on them periodically was enough..not sure.
I'm not saying this was the right decision at all - it was clearly a grave error.
Remember also social pressure. There was a whole group of parents who for whatever reason decided to leave their kids. Perhaps not all the parents felt comfortable with the arrangement but went along with it because they saw that several people were doing it.
Again, I'm not saying it's right. Just trying to understand what it is that made the McCanns and the other parents there make that decision.
Maybe it wasn't the 'false sense of security' at the resort - but it must have been something!
Not having this Sherlock
You are a small step away from the oft repeated, "We all do it" ... slightly altered to, "We are all capable of doing it"
Not so ... not by a long chalk
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 03, 2014, 12:51:38 AM
You are a small step away from the oft repeated, "We all do it" ... slightly altered to, "We are all capable of doing it"
Not so ... not by a long chalk
I'll have another ponder about this, icabod. As you know I am am not a quick thinker; more of a ruminator.
I still would say that I am just trying to find a reason why these parents did something that presumably they never did at home. Don't think the McCanns went down to the local in Rothley and left the children alone in the house. It simply would not have occurred to them to do such a thing.
I take your point that trying to explain something is the thin end of the wedge to justifying it. I see this in America all the time with the therapy culture. Reasons why people are supposed to have done things are readily given and discussed. It's not long after that that people come to be seen purely as victims and products of their circumstances, and moral responsibility is forgotten.
Having said all that, there must be a reason why the McCanns and several other couples did what they did, and I don't see what's wrong in essence with trying to work that out.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 03, 2014, 12:58:21 AM
But if it were a she, or even a he, who Madeleine knew well, would it scare her ? Especially if the person said that mummy had sent her to fetch her ?
In that case you have the question of why the person would have needed to silence her? The child Smithman was carrying had her arms down her body, as though she had been drugged or knocked out. Having her arms around the man's neck would be a more normal way of carrying.
The child bundleman was carrying also looked, according to the position in which she was lying, as though she were asleep or possibly drugged or knocked out.
If Madeleine had come compliantly to the abductor, having recognised the person, she would had to have been awake to do so. Would she suddenly have fallen asleep again a few minutes later, whilst in the abductor's arms?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 03, 2014, 12:58:32 AM
SH the others took rudimentary precautions ie locked both their front and back doors so the kids couldnt get out..not the same as the mccanns who left their back door open and cant remember if they locked the front one or not!! Unbelievable! Nite now
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 01:00:33 AM
You are a small step away from the oft repeated, "We all do it" ... slightly altered to, "We are all capable of doing it"
Not so ... not by a long chalk
People dont do it these days Icabod. Not since Madeleine. ... but it was very common on caravan and camping sites for parents to be a good distance away chatting over a camp fire, a drink, with other parents.
Also normal at Butlins and Pontins .... and not uncommon in hotels
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 03, 2014, 01:01:00 AM
SH the others took rudimentary precautions ie locked both their front and back doors so the kids couldnt get out..not the same as the mccanns who left their back door open and cant remember if they locked the front one or not!! Unbelievable! Nite now
Yes, that part is interesting. They did do it slightly differently.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 01:05:52 AM
Yes, that part is interesting. They did do it slightly differently.
Yep, they all backed on to an unlit alleyway, so they thought it necessary to lock their back doors. it seems. The Mccanns back patio was well illuminated by the street lamp immediately across the road lighting the whole patio area.
At least I think the alleyway was unlit. Please correct me if I am remembering this wrongly.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 03, 2014, 01:16:25 AM
Yes, that part is interesting. They did do it slightly differently.
No it wasnt "slightly" differently it was "alot" differently, ie they "secured" their apartments, from entry or exit by kids or anyone else, not left open for any tom dick or harry to enter, or the kids to wonder out of, oh never mind lol, gone >>>>>
And i dont remember any of the tapas group telling people willy nilly they left their kids alone!!!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 01:33:16 AM
Yep, they all backed on to an unlit alleyway, so they thought it necessary to lock their back doors. it seems. The Mccanns back patio was well illuminated by the street lamp immediately across the road lighting the whole patio area.
At least I think the alleyway was unlit. Please correct me if I am remembering this wrongly.
Yep, they all backed on to an unlit alleyway, so they thought it necessary to lock their back doors. it seems. The Mccanns back patio was well illuminated by the street lamp immediately across the road lighting the whole patio area.
At least I think the alleyway was unlit. Please correct me if I am remembering this wrongly.
Apart from the need for security, with IIRC no lamps to light their back way in, they wouldn't want to use that route from choice.
Additionally, the farther west the apartments is , the less the differences between front route and vback route. THe Mccanns was the longest front route with all that walled opathway to walk and the shortest back route. Additionally all the other front doors opened from a well lit lobby. The Mccanns was a dark bogey hole of a front entrance.
Because the front door to 5A was so black and such a nasty place after dark, that would have been a strong persuader instead to use the patio door, which was well lit. And that is apart from the very different distances walked for them, to the others.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 03, 2014, 01:52:00 AM
Just had to relog in to say what a bunch of incorrect fatastical and pathetic baloney
Bye now
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 03, 2014, 02:00:05 AM
Sorry.. I am too sleepy to quote but just want to say something re question 'why / how would Madeleine recognise someone'
Madeleine did not even have to recognise someone.. it would be enough if it was in their head that she did /could recognise them.. it would be enough for them to be paranoid when in a stressful state of mind and they would remove her..
Not everyone thinks the same and I have no clue how burglars or criminals think but if they've ever been to prison they'd do everything to not to get to back to prison.. IMO
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: icabodcrane on February 03, 2014, 02:02:50 AM
People dont do it these days Icabod. Not since Madeleine. ... but it was very common on caravan and camping sites for parents to be a good distance away chatting over a camp fire, a drink, with other parents.
Also normal at Butlins and Pontins .... and not uncommon in hotels
I am 'people' sadie ... and the fact that I never have ... and never would leave my children alone and vulnernable, has nothing to do with Madeleine McCann
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 03, 2014, 02:03:25 AM
Sorry.. I am too sleepy to quote but just want to say something re question 'why / how would Madeleine recognise someone'
Madeleine did not even have to recognise someone.. it would be enough if it was in their head that she did /could recognise them.. it would be enough for them to be paranoid when in a stressful state of mind and they would remove her..
Not everyone thinks the same and I have no clue how burglars or criminals think but if they've ever been to prison they'd do everything to not to get to back to prison.. IMO
Jesus h christ!!
Hows the mills and boon contract going vixte? Lol >>>>>>>>>>>>
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 03, 2014, 06:21:07 AM
It's very funny what you're saying, columbo, (and redblossom), but the fact is that a crime of gross proportions did occur that night in Praia da Luz - whatever exactly that crime ( or crimes ) may have been.
A number of crimes also took in the resort prior to that night. They may or may not be connected with Madeleine's disappearance, but they happened.
I would suspect that in any given place there is probably a great deal of petty crime - and worse - going on at any one time, it's just that we're not focusing on it. We only focus on what impacts us directly or what is covered by the media. Out of sight out of mind.
We know for a fact that security and various other kinds of protocols at the OC were exceptionally lax, and it is likely that this situation has been exploited by employees and others.
LOOK put it into context.
PRIOR to the McCanns holiday PDL was thought of as a quiet place, a SAFE PLACE. Actually there is a forum of PDL citizens you can chat with who will tell you that.
Yes no matter where you go you will get some PETTY THEFT, its normal, and who is to say its the locals doing it?
ITS always odd to me, in the holiday season its higher, but afterwards its quieter. Yes less pickings, but how many thieving are not actually holiday makers themselves adding some dosh to their spending kitty. (I do know this happens as someone was caught in Greece and it was a holiday maker).
There was ONE burglary before the McCanns arrived. The other Mrs Fenn mentioned, but it cant be corroborated as she is deceased and weirdly enough her neice was in the area at the time and instead of staying with her aunt who had, allegedgely had an attempted robbery she stayed in a hotel about an hour away, so I am a bit sceptical about this as if it was my AUNT I would have stayed with her.
ITS not just the petty thieving its all the other things that PDL is now renowned for. Its getting out of hand.
Now with this knew news I can expect less people will want to stay there. Livelihoods are at stake here. Private apartments wont be rented out, people will loose money, all because of someones initial NEGLIGENCE.
IT NEEDS to stop NOW. The media needs to shut up and let the police do their job.
I find the whole thing now quite farcical, like a bloody carry on film lol......
ITS A JOKE, a big fat joke, and we have forgotten that sadly there was a young girl involved in the beginning.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 03, 2014, 06:32:18 AM
Ok, you're not considering that your child will be nicked out of your apartment, far enough, but are you seriously saying that your go leave your child in an unlocked apartment, next to a swimming pool, out of earshot?
Forget crime and spend a moment thinking about your child waking up and being frightened in a strange environment and shouting for you. And you can't hear!
That's right, They're there all on their own, they're frightened and you can't hear your child crying or calling for you.
Are you still going to go out for dinner now?
That's why we (parents) don't just leave our kids alone. It's not just thoughts of fire and choking and the tiny possibility that they make get snatched by a smack addicted burglar cum tractor driver. It's the thought of the distress that would be caused to them by our absence.
8((()*/ 8)-))) 8)-))) 8)-))) EXCELLENT, exactly....AND what really gets me running for the RENNIES is the fact ALTHOUGH they KNEW THE CHILD WAS DISTRESSED she told her mother so one morning, they took the DECISION TO DO IT TWICE AGAIN..................OH MY FISHING GOD....ARE YOU SERIOUS..............................
This is why i get sooooo mad about them......I cant forgive them for that.
Those poor kids sobbing in the dark for over an hour for mummy and daddy who never came for what must have seemed FOREVER. IF the child had not been taken, the harm that would have done to her is unthinkable.
I expect she would have never slept again, without going to her parents bed because she had separation and abandonment issues.........GIVE ME A BREAK.
I have about 10 grand children and so many great grandchildren, and if I found ONE OF FAMILY leaving their children this way, they would have their bl&&dy ears boxed...I can tell you.
IF YOU WANT TO GO OUT, make sure you have BABYSITTING in place. IF NOT bl^^dy well stay in. SIMPLE.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Benice on February 03, 2014, 06:56:31 AM
It really riles me that people claim they were within the realms of responsible parenting because they felt safe! It completely negates the children's right to feel safe. If any of those children woke up (and we've been told that Madeleine did at least once) then they are going to have felt very unsafe indeed.
No matter how secure I've felt in any environment, I've never forgotten that I'm a Mum.
Before I'm accused of portraying myself as a 'perfect parent' I've made many mistakes, but they were honest ones. They were the kind of trial and error mistakes that every parent makes, cause none of us are perfect.
Forgetting that your child may wake up in a strange place all alone and frightened is so far outside my idea of a 'mistake' that it's incomprehensible.
Anyway, I have the school run in the morning so I need my bed.
Nos da pawb
If every parent thought the same as you do Cariad - then the Baby Listening Service would never have taken off in the first place. The reason it was offered and has been going for decades is because there was a demand for it.
What riles me is the idea constantly pushed that the McCanns are the only parents ever to have left their children asleep with regular checks being made while they went for their evening meal.
And the idea that no other parent has ever gone out and forgotten to lock doors or windows - or even deliberately left doors open for some reason is quite frankly preposterous imo.
What I find shocking is that even after what happened to Madeleine, parents STILL signed up for the Listening Service offered in holiday resorts. IMO they deserve far more criticism than the McCanns have received. Although no doubt part of their thinking is that 'stuff like this only happens to other people' - completely forgetting that to everyone else on the planet WE ARE those 'other' people'. It's competely irrational, but it's a common misconception, which is why we hear people say.. 'I never thought this could happen to me'.
I have no problem at all in understanding how the McCanns could be lulled into a false sense of security - mainly because I see them as normal human beings just as capable of getting things wrong as the rest of us.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Benice on February 03, 2014, 07:29:36 AM
8((()*/ 8)-))) 8)-))) 8)-))) EXCELLENT, exactly....AND what really gets me running for the RENNIES is the fact ALTHOUGH they KNEW THE CHILD WAS DISTRESSED she told her mother so one morning, they took the DECISION TO DO IT TWICE AGAIN..................OH MY FISHING GOD....ARE YOU SERIOUS..............................
This is why i get sooooo mad about them......I cant forgive them for that.
Those poor kids sobbing in the dark for over an hour for mummy and daddy who never came for what must have seemed FOREVER. IF the child had not been taken, the harm that would have done to her is unthinkable.
I expect she would have never slept again, without going to her parents bed because she had separation and abandonment issues.........GIVE ME A BREAK.
I have about 10 grand children and so many great grandchildren, and if I found ONE OF FAMILY leaving their children this way, they would have their bl&&dy ears boxed...I can tell you.
IF YOU WANT TO GO OUT, make sure you have BABYSITTING in place. IF NOT bl^^dy well stay in. SIMPLE.
The whole point is that Madeliene was NOT distressed when she spoke to them. She made one little comment and then moved off to play elsewhere. She did not mention anything to the creche staff during the day and when she went to bed on that same evening - she didn't mention it to her parents then either. One would think the very act of going to bed would have reminded her of what had happened the night before. If it had been as traumatic as you seem to believe.
Mrs Fenn heard ONE child crying - not two children sobbing for over an hour on Tues night . So that could not have been Madeleine and Sean. On Wednesday night Racheal was next door and so would have heard two children sobbing for over an hour - so if could not have been that night. It was on Thurs morning that Madeleine made her comment to her mum and dad.
The fact is that what Madeleine was referring to is simply not known. IMO
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 03, 2014, 08:06:59 AM
The whole point is that Madeliene was NOT distressed when she spoke to them. She made one little comment and then moved off to play elsewhere. She did not mention anything to the creche staff during the day and when she went to bed on that same evening - she didn't mention it to her parents then either. One would think the very act of going to bed would have reminded her of what had happened the night before. If it had been as traumatic as you seem to believe.
Mrs Fenn heard ONE child crying - not two children sobbing for over an hour on Tues night . So that could not have been Madeleine and Sean. On Wednesday night Racheal was next door and so would have heard two children sobbing for over an hour - so if could not have been that night. It was on Thurs morning that Madeleine made her comment to her mum and dad.
The fact is that what Madeleine was referring to is simply not known. IMO
Maddie was definitely crying on the night of May 2nd, we know this because a middle-aged couple went into the apartment & comforted her.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: slartibartfast on February 03, 2014, 08:43:10 AM
Quote
Although Mark Warner offered a listening service at its other complexes – where a nanny tours the rooms every half an hour and listens for crying children – they have never offered it at the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz.
Telegraph.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Benice on February 03, 2014, 08:43:42 AM
Although Mark Warner offered a listening service at its other complexes – where a nanny tours the rooms every half an hour and listens for crying children – they have never offered it at the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz.
Telegraph.
Well there you go - confirmation that the Babylistening service was offered at holiday complexes and therefore used by many other parents. I've never seen any condemnation of those thousands of parents that accidents and fires etc etc could have happened and endangered THEIR children - or that they were exposing them to the possibility of being targetted by abductors by regularly leaving them unattended for short intervals of time.
The McCanns and their friends mirrored that existing service. The difference being that it was the parents and not strangers who were checking on the children.
What happened to Madeleine was a 'millions to one '' chance. I'm sure the majority of parents who were on holiday at the same time and did the same thing - went home breathing a huge sigh of relief and vowing never to use that service again. And IMO those parents who have carried on using that service after what happened to Madeleine are far worse than the McCanns.
The service should be completely banned IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 03, 2014, 09:31:02 AM
Well there you go - confirmation that the Babylistening service was offered at holiday complexes and therefore used by many other parents. I've never seen any condemnation of those thousands of parents that accidents and fires etc etc could have happened and endangered THEIR children - or that they were exposing them to the possibility of being targetted by abductors by regularly leaving them unattended for short intervals of time.
The McCanns and their friends mirrored that existing service. The difference being that it was the parents and not strangers who were checking on the children.
What happened to Madeleine was a 'millions to one '' chance. I'm sure the majority of parents who were on holiday at the same time and did the same thing - went home breathing a huge sigh of relief and vowing never to use that service again. And IMO those parents who have carried on using that service after what happened to Madeleine are far worse than the McCanns.
The service should be completely banned IMO.
Banned by whom exactly? Are you suggesting that every country should introduce appropriate legislation to that effect?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Benice on February 03, 2014, 09:47:36 AM
Banned by whom exactly? Are you suggesting that every country should introduce appropriate legislation to that effect?
I would hope that all tour operators, hoteliers etc etc would voluntarily withdraw the service. It's obvious that some parents are still inexplicably using it - otherwise the lack of demand would have meant it would have naturally 'died a death' by now.
If people do want to keep it - then there should be legislation regarding the security measures required to be in place before they are allowed to advertise and operate the service. IMO.
IIRC at one time they didn't need to have firedoors - now they are compulsory. The same approach could be adopted regarding security measures imo.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 09:56:05 AM
I am 'people' sadie ... and the fact that I never have ... and never would leave my children alone and vulnernable, has nothing to do with Madeleine McCann
Good for you Icabod
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 03, 2014, 09:59:26 AM
The whole point is that Madeliene was NOT distressed when she spoke to them. She made one little comment and then moved off to play elsewhere. She did not mention anything to the creche staff during the day and when she went to bed on that same evening - she didn't mention it to her parents then either. One would think the very act of going to bed would have reminded her of what had happened the night before. If it had been as traumatic as you seem to believe.
Mrs Fenn heard ONE child crying - not two children sobbing for over an hour on Tues night . So that could not have been Madeleine and Sean. On Wednesday night Racheal was next door and so would have heard two children sobbing for over an hour - so if could not have been that night. It was on Thurs morning that Madeleine made her comment to her mum and dad.
The fact is that what Madeleine was referring to is simply not known. IMO
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU MAKE SUCH A S.W.E.E.P.I.N.G statement.........were you there. OF course she was stressed this is a THREE YEAR OLD we are talking about, to wake up on your own in the dark and no mummy is going to make any child stressed.
Jeez some people live in flipping fairy land.....
AND THE FACT SHE MADE THE COMMENT ON THURSDAY MORNING IS EVEN MORE TELLING, as they still LEFT HER THAT NIGHT.
Jeez give me a break.
INEXCUSABLE.....I usually have you on ignore, now I know why.
They NEGLECTED their children.
I can forgive them for listening at the door, but to leave them AFTER the child was upset is INEXCUSABLE. 8()(((@#
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 10:08:05 AM
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU MAKE SUCH A S.W.E.E.P.I.N.G statement.........were you there. OF course she was stressed this is a THREE YEAR OLD we are talking about, to wake up on your own in the dark and no mummy is going to make any child stressed.
Jeez some people live in flipping fairy land.....
AND THE FACT SHE MADE THE COMMENT ON THURSDAY MORNING IS EVEN MORE TELLING, as they still LEFT HER THAT NIGHT.
Jeez give me a break.
INEXCUSABLE.....I usually have you on ignore, now I know why.
They NEGLECTED their children.
I can forgive them for listening at the door, but to leave them AFTER the child was upset is INEXCUSABLE. 8()(((@#
It is your loss if you have Benice on ignore. She is one of the calmest, most thougtful and most logical posters on here.
If Madeleine were completely on her own, i might agree with you
BUT Madeleine had her brother and sister with her. She would have wakened them had she been frightened
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2014, 01:14:37 PM
Two witnesses said they saw a middle-aged couple enter the apartment to comfort Madeleine, who was crying, The Sunday Express has reported.
The newspaper quoted a source as saying: 'Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.'
So that's the Daily Mail quoting the Sunday Express. Is there anything slightly more reliable? If that were true, why didn't the police investigate at the time? If they did, where is the trace in the files?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 03, 2014, 01:23:51 PM
Two witnesses said they saw a middle-aged couple enter the apartment to comfort Madeleine, who was crying, The Sunday Express has reported.
The newspaper quoted a source as saying: 'Apparently they were concerned about the crying and went to see if they could comfort the girl.'
So that's the Daily Mail quoting the Sunday Express. Is there anything slightly more reliable? If that were true, why didn't the police investigate at the time? If they did, where is the trace in the files?
Maybe one of them was on the sex offenders register or maybe their statements were made to the LP or they got lost in the same pile of papers as the night creche records.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 03, 2014, 01:52:52 PM
It is your loss if you have Benice on ignore. She is one of the calmest, most thougtful and most logical posters on here.
If Madeleine were completely on her own, i might agree with you
BUT Madeleine had her brother and sister with her. She would have wakened them had she been frightened
ROFLMAO, your serious RIGHT, so two, 2 year olds who cant speak are going to comfort her. OMG I have read it all now.... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 03, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
I wonder why it is that some people cannot realise that some things are simply undefendable and just make themselves look ridiculous by trying to do so.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 03, 2014, 02:39:20 PM
Well there you go - confirmation that the Babylistening service was offered at holiday complexes and therefore used by many other parents. I've never seen any condemnation of those thousands of parents that accidents and fires etc etc could have happened and endangered THEIR children - or that they were exposing them to the possibility of being targetted by abductors by regularly leaving them unattended for short intervals of time.
The McCanns and their friends mirrored that existing service. The difference being that it was the parents and not strangers who were checking on the children.
What happened to Madeleine was a 'millions to one '' chance. I'm sure the majority of parents who were on holiday at the same time and did the same thing - went home breathing a huge sigh of relief and vowing never to use that service again. And IMO those parents who have carried on using that service after what happened to Madeleine are far worse than the McCanns.
The service should be completely banned IMO.
firstly, I would criticise anyone who leaves their child unattended, we just happen to be discussing the Mccann case at the moment. Secondly, we don't actually know what happened to Madeleine, so we can't assume that it was a million to one chance.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2014, 02:45:13 PM
firstly, I would criticise anyone who leaves their child unattended, we just happen to be discussing the Mccann case at the moment. Secondly, we don't actually know what happened to Madeleine, so we can't assume that it was a million to one chance.
just as we cant assume that the parents were involved
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 03, 2014, 02:48:13 PM
Could you link to it please? I've read Madeleine and Sean, never Amelie.
Quote
Kate McCann interview 6th Sept
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on Tuesday night for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45 p.m., she says that is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, so she stayed to sleep with her and Gerry in their bedroom. She says that before Madeleine appeared in her bedroom, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine came into the room almost at the same time she heard the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she, or Gerry, went to the children’s room, however she asserts that Amelie cried for a short time.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 03, 2014, 04:19:17 PM
ROFLMAO, your serious RIGHT, so two, 2 year olds who cant speak are going to comfort her. OMG I have read it all now.... @)(++(*
I am gobsmacked colom.
Are you seriously saying that two intelligent 2 1/4 yr old children couldn't talk? Both mine could walk and talk by 12 months. and well before 2 years they could run and string small sentences together. Couldn't yours do that?
I am aware that there are certain lazy intelligent babies that do not bother to talk at such an early age cos they can get what they want without talking, but that is rare . Are you sure that the twins fell in this catagory ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 08:35:52 PM
She said it was a chld over two years of age and was convinced the cryng came from directly below her flat
Directly below is the mccanns flat
That rules out the paynes on the same floor as her next door and who had a monitor and the oldfields whose child was not even two at the time
That leaves the obriens child three doors away and whilst daddy was there...doubt it was his child either
Reckon Mrs Fenn was right
Most old people have some hearing loss and can no longer tell the direction that sound comes from. I dont have a clue tbh. With hearing loss the clarity of sound disappears. Mrs fenn may believe that the crying child was over two, but with any hearing loss she may have likely had plus all children make different crying sounds, it is doubtful she knew.
Had Madeleine been loudly crying, there would have been three loud voices imo. Madeleine would have soon wakened the twins up. She is no shrinking violet !
Does Mrs Fenn say three children crying ? NO
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2014, 08:40:47 PM
Are you seriously saying that two intelligent 2 1/4 yr old children couldn't talk? Both mine could walk and talk by 12 months. and well before 2 years they could run and string small sentences together. Couldn't yours do that?
I am aware that there are certain lazy intelligent babies that do not bother to talk at such an early age cos they can get what they want without talking, but that is rare . Are you sure that the twins fell in this catagory ?
Actually I could read and write aged 2.5 and so did one of my cousins.
But for example one of my sisters had difficulty reading aged 5 or 6 but she later in life did better than any of us.. her IQ is also higher than ours.. so IMO this is all individual..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 03, 2014, 08:49:37 PM
The Judicial Police are searching for a 40 year old man who worked as a driver at the Ocean Club tourist resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared. According to sources at the Daily News, the man was responsible for transporting tourists from the resort to Faro Airport.
09:32 - February 3, 2014 | By By Minute News
Praia da Luz, near Lagos, is again subject to enquiries by the Judicial Police. This time the target is the former driver of the resort where the McCanns were staying with their children in May 2007.
According to the Daily News, the former driver of the minibus at the Ocean Club would have been about 40 years of age. After the incident, the man, single, left the project, worked in a bar and is unemployed at this time.
"They've been here a few days ago, three individuals who identified themselves as being from the Judicial Police and wanted to know where a man who worked for the Ocean Club Company when Maddie disappeared resides. At the time he used to transport tourists from Faro Airport to the apartments of the project in Praia da Luz Then at the end of the holidays he took customers to the airport to return to their respective countries. He was accustomed to always using a phone, a local resident of Praia da Luz told the Daily News.
Described as "quiet and polite," the man brought a new presence of the PJ to Praia da Luz, a few days after four British investigators from Scotland Yard were in a meeting in Faro.
On the table at the meeting, which included Cramo Mota, responsible for the Board of Southern PJ, and Ana Paula Rito, the coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Department in Portimão, was a request to the Portuguese police for cooperation for cooperation in several matters.
I now wonder if this car used to transport tourists was parked across the road to OC reception.. where the portuguese / GNR dogs lost Madeleine's scent!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2014, 09:16:18 PM
She said it was a chld over two years of age and was convinced the cryng came from directly below her flat
Directly below is the mccanns flat
That rules out the paynes on the same floor as her next door and who had a monitor and the oldfields whose child was not even two at the time
That leaves the obriens child three doors away and whilst daddy was there...doubt it was his child either
Reckon Mrs Fenn was right
According to the non-verbatim report, translated back into English, she said the floor below.
I find it possible that she heard different children crying in various apartments over the course of the evening, from further away to closer. Depending on whose timing is correct, the last one could have been Amelie actually crying, and the voice could have been Madeleine calling out and going to her parents' bedroom.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 03, 2014, 09:22:28 PM
I now wonder if this car used to transport tourists was parked across the road to OC reception.. where the portuguese / GNR dogs lost Madeleine's scent!
thats a good wonder but probably a totally useless one...dont let them sap you vixte!
8((()*/
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 03, 2014, 09:38:30 PM
thats a good wonder but probably a totally useless one...dont let them sap you vixte!
8((()*/
There is some history to this. Back in 2007 in the first days when Madeleine went missing.. back then we did not have [ censored word] and pros on forums and it was all open and people were very proactive.. and this was before the 'secrecy' and stupid journos and it all started at Steve Huffs crime blog. I remember very well that these dogs were mentioned and that we had a PJ person on forum, I think she was called Olviera or something, lovely lady, and the theory back then which all worked on was that the car parked there probably took Madeleine.. and 'Olviera' said she'd pass it to PJ.. and I am remembering this now and thinking if this is true then I am going to eat my hat.. such a waste of time and resources all these years and the theory was there in the first days!
But then this was rubbished because Gerry McCann said Madeleine passed there ( but he wasn't sure) and it was forgotten so not sure if it was passed to PJ..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Air Con on February 03, 2014, 10:26:15 PM
IMO phone data from the data centre cannot be inaccurate.. it has to collaborate with towers .. but your own phone can give you the wrong time because the phone time is set up locally on your phone.
If a police officer in the UK claims to have seen you using a mobile phone whilst driving no amount of data from mast pings will help you. You can claim all you like that the phone wasn't being used according to data from the service provider but it won't be accepted.
Unless, of course, they need it to prove something else.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Air Con on February 03, 2014, 10:54:53 PM
Why do people keep comparing the official resort baby listening service with the haphazard approach adopted by the McCann's?
There's no comparison. One is an organised service at regular intervals whilst the other consists of someone, not sure whom, checking an apartment that may or may not be locked by either listening at the window or possibly going inside.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 03, 2014, 11:52:14 PM
Why do people keep comparing the official resort baby listening service with the haphazard approach adopted by the McCann's?
There's no comparison. One is an organised service at regular intervals whilst the other consists of someone, not sure whom, checking an apartment that may or may not be locked by either listening at the window or possibly going inside.
Air con
The Mccanns checking was far superior to the old hotel listening service. Just cos they promised every half hour does not mean that they achieved every half hour.
The Mccanns checked VISUALLY, with the help of Matt, every half hour. Nobody is saying that it was to the second, but I bet that it was a damned sight more regular than the average hotel service which would often rely on an oft interrupted receptionist trying to do two jobs at once.
Additional to the visual check, Matt did a further listening check at the childrens bedroom.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 03, 2014, 11:56:04 PM
The Mccanns checking was far superior to the old hotel listening service. Just cos they promised every half hour does not mean that they achieved every half hour.
The Mccanns checked VISUALLY, with the help of Matt, every half hour. Nobody is saying that it was to the second, but I bet that it was a damned sight more regular than the average hotel service which would often rely on an oft interrupted receptionist trying to do two jobs at once.
Additional to the visual check, Matt did a further listening check at the childrens bedroom.
That was Thursday night. What about the others? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 03, 2014, 11:59:38 PM
There is some history to this. Back in 2007 in the first days when Madeleine went missing.. back then we did not have [ censored word] and pros on forums and it was all open and people were very proactive.. and this was before the 'secrecy' and stupid journos and it all started at Steve Huffs crime blog. I remember very well that these dogs were mentioned and that we had a PJ person on forum, I think she was called Olviera or something, lovely lady, and the theory back then which all worked on was that the car parked there probably took Madeleine.. and 'Olviera' said she'd pass it to PJ.. and I am remembering this now and thinking if this is true then I am going to eat my hat.. such a waste of time and resources all these years and the theory was there in the first days!
But then this was rubbished because Gerry McCann said Madeleine passed there ( but he wasn't sure) and it was forgotten so not sure if it was passed to PJ..
Which car, VIXTE?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 04, 2014, 12:00:29 AM
That was Thursday night. What about the others? >@@(*&)
Lyall, we dont know any real details about the other nights except we do know, IIRC, that they ate at the Millenium restaurant one of the early nights and took the little ones with them. That was too difficult. Not successful, so they sataisfied themselves with the outdoor Tapas restaurant.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 04, 2014, 12:11:47 AM
The car used to bring tourists from Faro airport to Ocean Club driven by this particular driver / or the personal car of the driver in question.
( I am talking about the link that drummer posted - the new reports in PT papers that PJ is now seeking the driver who worked for OC; My question was whether his car was maybe parked in the area just accros the road of OC reception where the GNR sniffer dogs lost Madeleine's scent on the 4th May and 8th May 2007)
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 04, 2014, 12:11:51 AM
Lyall, we dont know any real details about the other nights except we do know, IIRC, that they ate at the Millenium restaurant one of the early nights and took the little ones with them. That was too difficult. Not successful, so they sataisfied themselves with the outdoor Tapas restaurant.
This is the problem, Sadie. We still don't know much about anything, on any night, and there are no witnesses to what we've been told (apart from J Wilkins, but he didn't really witness anything either).
The only witnesses to their stories are themselves, and that's the problem.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 04, 2014, 12:17:38 AM
The car used to bring tourists from Faro airport to Ocean Club driven by this particular driver / or the personal car of the driver in question.
( I am talking about the link that drummer posted - the new reports in PT papers that PJ is now seeking the driver who worked for OC; My question was whether his car was maybe parked in the area just accros the road of OC reception where the GNR sniffer dogs lost Madeleine's scent on the 4th May and 8th May 2007)
Thanks I see it now..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 04, 2014, 01:21:29 AM
SO some guy works late because some foreign tourists can't get into their apartment and therefore obviously pings a central PDL mast slightly after precribed work finish,. This is what I call a good worker. Willing to stay late when work demands. Now he is targeted by investigators just because he worked late. Unfair. Outdated british superiority complex. Honest portuguese worker unfairly insinuated IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 04, 2014, 06:44:38 AM
According to the non-verbatim report, translated back into English, she said the floor below.
I find it possible that she heard different children crying in various apartments over the course of the evening, from further away to closer. Depending on whose timing is correct, the last one could have been Amelie actually crying, and the voice could have been Madeleine calling out and going to her parents' bedroom.
Well if she heard the McCanns friends children crying, wernt they all together OUT EATING, either way it was not acceptable that children were heard crying for over an hour.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 04, 2014, 06:48:24 AM
SO some guy works late because some foreign tourists can't get into their apartment and therefore obviously pings a central PDL mast slightly after precribed work finish,. This is what I call a good worker. Willing to stay late when work demands. Now he is targeted by investigators just because he worked late. Unfair. Outdated british superiority complex. Honest portuguese worker unfairly insinuated IMO.
Is it from SY own mouth this information or just another Alice in Wonderland going down the rabbit hole?
Surely if he was working in Portugal, they know who he is, and can find him easily it isnt rocket science lol.
It just seems to me any patsy will do.....
They have no clue.......
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 04, 2014, 07:09:02 AM
Bernardino Abreu Pereira da Silva (previously identified on p 372)
He confirms the integrity of his statement on page 372.
When asked, he says he no longer works for the MW OC for health reasons, he made the decision to resign.
When questioned about having made a telephone call on 3rd May at 21.00.11 having activated antennas in P da L, when his working day finished at 20.30, he says that on this day, as well as on others, he was delayed because he had to carry out the transport, even though it was late, of some tourists. At this time he was driving the minibus belonging to the establishment. H e also says, that on this day, as well as the transport already referred to, he was late because of the fact that some tourists did not have the key to their apartment.
With regard to the number that he dialled on that day at that time, he says it was the number 966****** corresponding to his wife?s number, which was confirmed in this file. He has nothing else to add. Reads, ratifies, signs.
ANOTHER DRIVER:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_SILVA.htm
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 04, 2014, 07:58:37 AM
4th February 2014
Daily Star
Maddie cops hunt ex-hotel minibus driver in fresh lead
POLICE are hunting a former minibus driver at the Algarve holiday resort where Madeleine McCann went missing.
The unnamed 40-year-old used to ferry tourists between the Ocean Club complex and Faro Airport at the time the youngster vanished.
Detectives reckon he could hold the key to cracking the seven-year riddle of Maddie's disappearance.
Madeleine was three when she went missing from her bed in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
Officers from Portugal's Policia Judiciaria are believed to have spent days scouring the resort in a bid to track down the ex-Ocean Club worker.
The former minibus driver is now thought to be jobless after a short stint working in a local bar.
A hotel worker told Portuguese media: "Three individuals who identified themselves as PJ officers were here days ago.
"They were asking where a man who worked at the Ocean Club when Madeleine disappeared lived.
"At the time he used to pick up tourists who were staying at the Ocean Club from Faro Airport and at the end of their stay he would run them back to the airport."
The major breakthrough comes after Metropolitan Police officers identified three former Ocean Club workers as prime suspects in the case.
Crunch British detectives believe the trio may be behind a string of burglaries at the holiday complex in the run-up to Maddie's disappearance.
Police believe the three men would have known the layout of the Ocean Club complex and the best escape routes for anyone taking a child.
It is one of the best leads to emerge since the Met reopened the case following pleas from Maddie's family.
Scotland Yard officers now want to search their homes and probe their bank accounts.
They held a crunch meeting with senior Portuguese officials last week in the hope of gaining permission to operate on Portuguese soil.
It follows a painstaking coldcase UK review supported by Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry, both 45.
A trawl of mobile phone records revealed that the three suspects were nearby and made a number of calls to each other in the hours after Maddie was reported missing.
According to reports, people living in the area have also pointed out how the former minibus driver "was always using his mobile phone".
One theory is that the burglars raided the McCanns' flat and were panicked into snatching the youngster when she woke up.
But Brit police have also turned their attention to a notorious gypsy site seven miles from Praia da Luz.
Detectives were understood to be investigating the area of Meia Praia along with another traveller site 30 miles away.
Last October it emerged another former worker had been made a prime suspect.
Waiter Euclides Monteiro, 40, was forced to quit his job after being caught stealing tips.
The immigrant from Cape Verde was killed in a tractor accident in 2009.
His family were furious and claimed that the Portuguese authorities were trying to use him as a scapegoat for Madeleine's disappearance.
Bernardino Abreu Pereira da Silva (previously identified on p 372)
He confirms the integrity of his statement on page 372.
When asked, he says he no longer works for the MW OC for health reasons, he made the decision to resign.
When questioned about having made a telephone call on 3rd May at 21.00.11 having activated antennas in P da L, when his working day finished at 20.30, he says that on this day, as well as on others, he was delayed because he had to carry out the transport, even though it was late, of some tourists. At this time he was driving the minibus belonging to the establishment. H e also says, that on this day, as well as the transport already referred to, he was late because of the fact that some tourists did not have the key to their apartment.
With regard to the number that he dialled on that day at that time, he says it was the number 966****** corresponding to his wife?s number, which was confirmed in this file. He has nothing else to add. Reads, ratifies, signs.
ANOTHER DRIVER:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_SILVA.htm
The more interesting bit is this
Quote
The witness states that, in informal conversation with the inspectors of this police force (DIC Portimao), he reported a situation, which at the time seemed abnormal, but that these facts have already been investigated, and it was determined that they had no relevance to the current investigation.
When asked, he replies that it was from this moment onwards that he learnt of the facts under investigation by means of the media.
i.e .What did he report in a informal conversation and what is it what was investigated out of this?
Maybe he is not a suspect at all but they are looking for him ( as reported in the media) just to ask him about the things he reported..
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 04, 2014, 09:53:52 AM
VIXTE, the man I was talking about all these months was an OC employee driver with a record for theft. He seems to be the man PJ is investigating now. But he is not Bernardino. Bernardino was married and now would be 66 years old. More on http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com) ... Although Bernardino would be closely related to this man.
The another man, who Bernardino saw as a suspect, was investigated by PJ in 2007, he lived in Rua Direita in front of the Post Office. And he was correctly discarded in 2007, IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 04, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
VIXTE, the man I was talking about all these months was an OC employee driver with a record for theft. He seems to be the man PJ is investigating now. But he is not Bernardino. Bernardino was married and now would be 66 years old. More on http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com) ... Although Bernardino would be closely related to this man.
The another man, who Bernardino saw as a suspect, was investigated by PJ in 2007, he lived in Rua Direita in front of the Post Office. And he was correctly discarded in 2007, IMO.
Ok, I understand this.
What I would like to know is where these cars for transporting of tourists were usually parked. Do you have any knowledge of this?
As if they were parked across the road of the OC reception than the GNR dogs route in early hours of the investigation would make sense.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on February 04, 2014, 10:33:05 AM
Not sure, but this seems to be an OC minibus, parked near OC reception and Madeleine creche.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 04, 2014, 10:37:24 AM
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: drummer on February 04, 2014, 10:56:48 AM
The reception is meant to be open 24hrs, this is obviously not the case. Just been reading a review and the reviewer was upset that the reception was locked up the night before their early flight home in the morning. I was just wondering who would be responsible for handing over room keys to new occupants arriving during the night if reception was indeed locked up. Would a driver be given keys to hand over ?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 04, 2014, 03:16:53 PM
Why do you accept Ben Needham was abducted..theres no evidence...your logic is totally inconsistent
Out of curiosity, does anyone doubt the Needhams? I mean, there is a large body of people who have their suspicions (whether logical or not) about the Mccanns. Has anyone ever heard of someone voicing the same concerns regarding Ben?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 04, 2014, 07:14:46 PM
Probably not,but had she surrounded herself with a reputation management team, people might have looked on her a bit more suspiciously.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: drummer on February 04, 2014, 09:55:24 PM
If Madeleine had disappeared 20 years ago I doubt her parents would've had the help they have had, probably not the bile either.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 04, 2014, 10:27:00 PM
If Madeleine had disappeared 20 years ago I doubt her parents would've had the help they have had, probably not the bile either.
I doubt so. 20 years ago everyone was leaving their kids alone, there was much less crime against kids and plus she might had been luckier with the choice of the first moment detective on duty...so maybe she would had been found immediately.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 04, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
I doubt so. 20 years ago everyone was leaving their kids alone, there was much less crime against kids and plus she might had been luckier with the choice of the first moment detective on duty...so maybe she would had been found immediately.
'20 years ago everyone was leaving their kids alone'
Bullshit.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Cariad on February 04, 2014, 10:37:24 PM
I doubt so. 20 years ago everyone was leaving their kids alone, there was much less crime against kids and plus she might had been luckier with the choice of the first moment detective on duty...so maybe she would had been found immediately.
My elder boy will be 18 in September. I never left him alone. Not even to pop to the corner shop for milk. If I were alone in the house with the boys in bed and I needed something urgently (milk for the morning coffee counts as urgent) I'd call my Dad.
I'm 36 and I was never left alone as a child. My parents would get baby sitters if they wanted to go out.
I've never met anyone who says they leave their lids alone. Who is this 'everybody'?
As to your second statement that 20 years ago their was much less crime against kids. That's just rubbish.
What are the worst crimes that you can think of off the top of your head?
For me it's probably:
The Moors murders: The wests: Dunblaine.
Dunblaine is the most recent and that was 18 years ago.
20 years ago the world was just as messed up as it is now, if not even more so.
It's too late for me to go looking up crime rate figures, but I will in the morning and I won't be supprised if things are actually safer now.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 04, 2014, 11:19:38 PM
Do you know how many vehicles were owned by OC that time? What the 'service vehicle' means? Is this the same vehicle as the one the tourists were driven from the airport? At that night one of the 'service vehicles' were in the hands of these people
Do you know how many vehicles were owned by OC that time? What the 'service vehicle' means? Is this the same vehicle as the one the tourists were driven from the airport? At that night one of the 'service vehicles' were in the hands of these people
You've got it ! and here's the partner that I think might have been called out to help with the doorlock that the mini driver's passenger couldn't get into . His statement didn't say that he collected a vehicle when the job was done, but could all be quite innocent though
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post178.html#p178
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 05, 2014, 06:29:06 AM
Out of curiosity, does anyone doubt the Needhams? I mean, there is a large body of people who have their suspicions (whether logical or not) about the Mccanns. Has anyone ever heard of someone voicing the same concerns regarding Ben?
I never DOUBTED Mrs Needham, I dont think she knew genuinely what happened to her son, BUT.....there was something odd about the uncle, which I believe has been documented, something about motorbike and accident and total memory loss.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 05, 2014, 06:31:23 AM
Not sure, but this seems to be an OC minibus, parked near OC reception and Madeleine creche.
Not sure of your point. 8-)(--)
IF it belongs to OC why wouldnt it be parked there. The OC have a minibus so what? The drivers were all brought in and talked to by the police.
I know someone who HAD a criminal record when he was young, and he has been working ever since for years, doesnt mean he will ever offend again....and its a big huge leap from stealing money to killing children.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 05, 2014, 06:35:23 AM
Why do you accept Ben Needham was abducted..theres no evidence...your logic is totally inconsistent
There is NO PROOF he was abducted, just that he disappeared......he could have easily wondered off and fell into a disused well, hole anywhere, where they lived the territory was terrible place.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: colombosstogey on February 05, 2014, 06:44:13 AM
Do you know how many vehicles were owned by OC that time? What the 'service vehicle' means? Is this the same vehicle as the one the tourists were driven from the airport? At that night one of the 'service vehicles' were in the hands of these people
A SERVICE vehicle could mean a small van for tools and paraphenalia, or one of the mini vans.
I find it interesting she drove right past the McCanns apartment but saw nothing suspicious, but it shows that cars WERE travelling past the McCanns apartment, as when you read all the stuff its like the place was shut down with no movement.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 05, 2014, 08:50:53 AM
A SERVICE vehicle could mean a small van for tools and paraphenalia, or one of the mini vans.
I find it interesting she drove right past the McCanns apartment but saw nothing suspicious, but it shows that cars WERE travelling past the McCanns apartment, as when you read all the stuff its like the place was shut down with no movement.
Yes, it does matter.
Service/OC vehicles would not be seen as suspicious. Therefore, they would even pass unnoticed. People were asked about 'strange vehicles' or whether they have seen anything unusual.
I wanted to know how many of these vehicles were in service of OC and who drove them that night and if not diven whose responsibilities they were... PJ at the time never got this information.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Benice on February 05, 2014, 09:41:14 AM
A SERVICE vehicle could mean a small van for tools and paraphenalia, or one of the mini vans.
I find it interesting she drove right past the McCanns apartment but saw nothing suspicious, but it shows that cars WERE travelling past the McCanns apartment, as when you read all the stuff its like the place was shut down with no movement.
If so, then surely the possibility of 'passing traffic' would be yet another reason why the McCanns would not have risked disposing of Madeleine's body at that time in the evening? Why not wait until the middle of the night when the place was shut down and the chances of encountering people/traffic were at a minimum.
IMO it is possible she may well have been taken away by car in the first instance - either to a destination miles away - or to a destination within PdL.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Estuarine on February 05, 2014, 10:14:18 AM
My elder boy will be 18 in September. I never left him alone. Not even to pop to the corner shop for milk. If I were alone in the house with the boys in bed and I needed something urgently (milk for the morning coffee counts as urgent) I'd call my Dad.
I'm 36 and I was never left alone as a child. My parents would get baby sitters if they wanted to go out.
I've never met anyone who says they leave their lids alone. Who is this 'everybody'?
As to your second statement that 20 years ago their was much less crime against kids. That's just rubbish.
What are the worst crimes that you can think of off the top of your head?
For me it's probably:
The Moors murders: The wests: Dunblaine.
Dunblaine is the most recent and that was 18 years ago.
20 years ago the world was just as messed up as it is now, if not even more so.
It's too late for me to go looking up crime rate figures, but I will in the morning and I won't be supprised if things are actually safer now.
You are quite right Cariad. 20 to 30 years ago I was a single parent. Leaving kids alone was not on because even then it attracted attention from the Stasi. There is simply no justification for it and crime levels have b***r all to do with it. In simple terms parents have a duty to their kids to keep them as safe as possible and teach them until they go their own way Crime against kids has remained at pretty consistent level for years. The problem today is perception whipped up by the press.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: sadie on February 05, 2014, 10:33:19 AM
What I would like to know is where these cars for transporting of tourists were usually parked. Do you have any knowledge of this?
As if they were parked across the road of the OC reception than the GNR dogs route in early hours of the investigation would make sense.
VIXTE are you referring to the main OC reception or to the tapas reception?
I think probably you refer to the Tapas reception, but Heris has taken it that you mean the main reception on Rua Direita ... and his photo refers to there.
Just trying to clear up a possible misunderstanding. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 05, 2014, 12:23:40 PM
VIXTE are you referring to the main OC reception or to the tapas reception?
I think probably you refer to the Tapas reception, but Heris has taken it that you mean the main reception on Rua Direita ... and his photo refers to there.
Just trying to clear up a possible misunderstanding. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I was only wondering if the usual parking place of OC cars/vans was matching the area where the GNR dogs lost the Madeleine's scent .. ie. if they were parked just across the road of the main OC reception.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 05, 2014, 12:24:17 PM
If so, then surely the possibility of 'passing traffic' would be yet another reason why the McCanns would not have risked disposing of Madeleine's body at that time in the evening? Why not wait until the middle of the night when the place was shut down and the chances of encountering people/traffic were at a minimum.
IMO it is possible she may well have been taken away by car in the first instance - either to a destination miles away - or to a destination within PdL.
Alibi Benice - that's the important part. Everyone at the tapas bar 9 people in total - good alibi.
Possible route of Smithman at 9pm to avoid most car traffic (4 minutes there and back) back to front door key entrance. (http://imageshack.com/a/img836/4853/zyd6.jpg)
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: John on February 05, 2014, 12:48:36 PM
I was only wondering if the usual parking place of OC cars/vans was matching the area where the GNR dogs lost the Madeleine's scent .. ie. if they were parked just across the road of the main OC reception.
No. The GNR dogs lost the scent in the little car park opposite the mini reception used to access the pool and tapas facilities. The minibus was usually parked at the main reception some distance away.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 02:29:55 PM
Service/OC vehicles would not be seen as suspicious. Therefore, they would even pass unnoticed. People were asked about 'strange vehicles' or whether they have seen anything unusual.
I wanted to know how many of these vehicles were in service of OC and who drove them that night and if not diven whose responsibilities they were... PJ at the time never got this information.
Good point, VIXTE - 'hiding in plain sight'
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 03:03:26 PM
I was only wondering if the usual parking place of OC cars/vans was matching the area where the GNR dogs lost the Madeleine's scent .. ie. if they were parked just across the road of the main OC reception.
The scenting dogs trail was the route Madeleine took to her creche a couple mornings earlier,.nothing suspicious about it imo...its in GMs statement of 10 May IIRC
Unless you think the abductor took her round the back of the apartments down the alley , down the road towards the tapas bar and across and to the car park for some reason
The scenting dogs trail was the route Madeleine took to her creche a couple mornings earlier,.nothing suspicious about it imo...its in GMs statement of 10 May IIRC
Unless you think the abductor took her round the back of the apartments down the alley , down the road towards the tapas bar and across and to the car park for some reason
IMO Gerry's statement is vague and the scent of these dogs is the freshest due to the particles they sniff on the floor. IMO this could be Madeleine's freshest scent. Nothing really I have seen in all these years to make me believe otherwise. If the car was parked there, IMO it would be very stupid not to find out whose park was parked there that night.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 03:23:30 PM
IMO Gerry's statement is vague and the scent of these dogs is the freshest due to the particles they sniff on the floor. IMO this could be Madeleine's freshest scent. Nothing really I have seen in all these years to make me believe otherwise. If the car was parked there, IMO it would be very stupid not to find out whose park was parked there that night.
Is this a hypothetical car, or an actual one that has been demonstrated to have been there?
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 03:24:58 PM
IMO Gerry's statement is vague and the scent of these dogs is the freshest due to the particles they sniff on the floor. IMO this could be Madeleine's freshest scent. Nothing really I have seen in all these years to make me believe otherwise. If the car was parked there, IMO it would be very stupid not to find out whose park was parked there that night.
Not vague at all. I think you are too eager to make spurious connections and are running away with yourself based on unsubstantiated forum and paper claims.
Eta
You didn't really answer my point either...about the dog scent route being the abductor route....what abductor would pass by a busy restaurant carrying a stolen child and stick them in his OC van, which Im sure was marked too
>@@(*&)
Pls dont forget this driver ...if the story is true, and thats a big IF, might be a person of interest for what he saw! Not what he did.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 03:27:06 PM
Ah, someone putting 1 & 1 together and coming up with 11 @)(++(*
Yes, it does your head in. And adds to confusion. Still, Gerry likes confusion doesnt he?
As he said in one of his interviews, ie one thing positive about media coverage is that no one knows what is true or not true
>@@(*&)
Of course, he said that in the context of the abductor not being given a heads up as to what was actually happening but you could take it a different way I suppose
eta
Smithman, Burglars, ex employees, gypsies , whatever is next etc, must be some campaign of confusion here from somewhere...its as annoying as ever
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 05, 2014, 03:48:06 PM
I guess time will tell whether this turns out to be meaningful, or goes the way of all other leads.
Imo the ony way it might be meaningful is what this driver witnessed if anything, if he was around at 8.30 go 9 ish......everything else is fanciful speculation that he done it!
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 06:18:19 PM
Imo the ony way it might be meaningful is what this driver witnessed if anything, if he was around at 8.30 go 9 ish......everything else is fanciful speculation that he done it!
You can guarantee that some will try and give it legs 8(0(*
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 06:49:41 PM
Funny how no mention of smithman much anymore in any context whatsoever
It's bizarre, isn't it. The new timeline, the revelation moment....
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: a.baker on February 05, 2014, 09:35:25 PM
Not sure if asking on the correct thread,but has anyone ever been suspicious of the 'music man'? English guy (sorry can't recall his name),lived in his van in PDL and mostly parked up at the Baptista supermarket and around the OC. He allegedly parked up at the camp site next to the beach from 9pm onwards each night.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 09:38:28 PM
Not sure if asking on the correct thread,but has anyone ever been suspicious of the 'music man'? English guy (sorry can't recall his name),lived in his van in PDL and mostly parked up at the Baptista supermarket and around the OC. He allegedly parked up at the camp site next to the beach from 9pm onwards each night.
Investigated and cleared by th PJ!!! Seven yearso ago
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Kazcutt on February 05, 2014, 09:47:18 PM
Trouble is a lot of leads will have gone cold, so it's not as simple as that.
Theydidnt go cold if investigated at the time which alot of these were, sy is going overold ground icases imo going by press reports then again we KNOW NOTHING
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 10:24:24 PM
Theydidnt go cold if investigated at the time which alot of these were, sy is going overold ground icases imo going by press reports then again we KNOW NOTHING
@)(++(*
But if some of those leads were not adequately pursued at the time, I mean...
Coming back to those after years may prove to be fruitless.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 11:23:51 PM
But if some of those leads were not adequately pursued at the time, I mean...
Coming back to those after years may prove to be fruitless.
So if Scotland Yard, after nearly three years , find no evidence of abduction, it won't be because, perhaps, there was no abduction ... it will be because the Portuguese made their task impossible from the off ?
Shame no-one thought of that before Andy Redwood spent seven millions pounds of our money
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 05, 2014, 11:35:44 PM
Are you sure? It is the commonest family name in Portugal. Certainly not brothers. Certainly not father and son. And if you take 2 people called Smith in England born about 20km apart they will almost certainly NOT be related.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 11:59:22 PM
So if Scotland Yard, after nearly three years , find no evidence of abduction, it won't be because, perhaps, there was no abduction ... it will be because the Portuguese made their task impossible from the off ?
Shame no-one thought of that before Andy Redwood spent seven millions pounds of our money
But icabod, hasn't this always been one of the shadows hanging over the investigation of Scotland Yard, namely the fact that much of their work is predicated on old material, which may or may not be completely accurate and may not have been followed though to completion at the time?
Surely it has been a distinct possibility from the get -go that the SY investigation might never bear fruit, if none of the old leads go anywhere, and new ones are not generated?
The base information SY have to work with is only as good as the PJ left it. And if there were things that the PJ didn't follow up, resulting in possible leads gone cold, there's not much that can be done about that now.
I'm not saying that the PJ did not in general follow up leads properly, or that SY can use the fact that their work is heavily reliant on that of the PJ as an excuse for not getting anywhere.
But the fact remains that if there happened to be any leads not properly pursued by the PJ, for whatever reason, this could have forever stymied progress in the case.
We knew this when we (the British taxpayer) signed what has become a blank cheque - and we signed it anyway.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 06, 2014, 12:15:06 AM
And by the way, icabod, we don't have to bring abduction into it. The same could go, logically speaking, for any line of inquiry.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 06, 2014, 12:34:27 AM
Look at the forensic evidence lost in the apartment due to not sealing it off properly as a crime scene.
The main people using the apartment were the McCanns; there could have been a wealth of information there that was lost, most of which would pertain to them.
And it was the McCanns after all who became the main suspects (under the Portuguese investigation at least). Any major flaws in the investigation would be a boon to those suspects - in the instance of their being guilty - more than to anyone else.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 06, 2014, 12:39:57 AM
What about a new thread, icabod?
Any ideas for the title - your mind is sharper and more focused than mine.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Redblossom on February 06, 2014, 12:40:33 AM
I am sure I have read that certain people belivve the McCanns went to PdL as part of a plan to get rid of Madeleine, choosing it as a quiet spot away from the scrutiny of UK authorities and police.
Has hardly worked out that way for them to be sure - but that's one of the theories all right.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 06, 2014, 12:56:55 AM
The third possibility is that there were leads that were not fully pursued.
Ah as the mccans say
Woudnt trust them as far as I could throw them and thats zero
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 01:40:44 AM
Some in UK call police the "plod" A compliment because a good detective will "plod" (go over meticulously all the evidence). The evidence of the beginning of an interrupted burglary is IMO staring SY in the face (KM statement which I believe is true, that she found window and shutter open) so it would be foolhardy for SY to not investigate a burglary interrupted, to work out which person interrupted it at its beginning, and what happened next. All IMO.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 07, 2014, 05:53:09 PM
Mr Amaral said: “One of the theories considered was that a thief got into the apartment and something happened with Madeleine. I am sure the review will examine that theory.”
Daily Express, May 2011.
>@@(*&)
2011.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: Lyall on February 07, 2014, 05:55:42 PM
Sunday Express 8()-000(
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: pegasus on February 08, 2014, 12:49:26 AM
Here is the link for that Express article http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/248068/Kate-McCann-How-dare-they-call-me-cold It also mentions the missing photofit by witness CT. And a breaking noise.
Title: Re: Former staff at Ocean Club now being investigated over burglary claims.
Post by: VIXTE on February 08, 2014, 02:02:19 AM
Why is this article so important? There have been 1000s of Madeleine articles in the Express. Should we believe to all of them or none of them?