Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 01:01:13 AM
Title: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 01:01:13 AM
It is remarkably difficult to find anywhere in the world such an orchestrated attack on a detective's private and professional life simply because in his job he accused a foreign individual of concealment.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 01, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
It is remarkably difficult to find anywhere in the world such an orchestrated attack on a detective's private and professional life simply because in his job he accused a foreign individual of concealment.
Writing books is not part of a police officer's job. He may have used a great deal of material from his work and from the PJ report. But not every police chief writes about his cases.
And he certainly didn't earn millions in police work - only a basic salary in British terms.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 01:32:20 AM
Writing books is not part of a police officer's job. He may have used a great deal of material from his work and from the PJ report. But not every police chief writes about his cases.
And he certainly didn't earn millions in police work - only a basic salary in British terms.
The orchestrated attack against Mr Amaral began before he was forced off the case and therefore entirely relates to his police conclusion that one particular foreign individual had done a concealment. It was ages before the book that Mr PR guy was planting his "sweaty corpulent beer-swilling" UK press articles.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 01, 2014, 01:47:40 AM
The orchestrated attack against Mr Amaral began before he was forced off the case and therefore entirely relates to his police conclusion that one particular foreign individual had done a concealment. It was ages before the book that Mr PR guy was planting his "sweaty corpulent beer-swilling" UK press articles.
Yes I take your point, pegasus. Nonetheless, Mr Amaral then chose to go way beyond his professional remit and write a book. He was of course completely at liberty to do so. But you can't write a book on a controversial topic and expect everyone to like it.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 02:05:26 AM
Yes I take your point, pegasus. Nonetheless, Mr Amaral then chose to go way beyond his professional remit and write a book. He was of course completely at liberty to do so. But you can't write a book on a controversial topic and expect everyone to like it.
The book was IMO his only sensible recourse after having been forced off the case.
But back to the atrocious attacks against Mr Amaral while he was a detective working on this case. Read David Roses work in the Mail on 15 September 2007. Count the childish insults against Mr Amarals professional and personal life and appearance. Have a calculator handy and hope the + button doesnt wear out. Imagine if a Portuguese PR guy today, working for someone being examined by SY, planted stories in the PT press slandering Mr Redwood like that, iInsulting his appearance, dress taste, weight, perspiration,spying on him whether he has a drink at lunch? I stress this was Sept 2007 and Amaral is being attacked solely for his official police work.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: sadie on February 01, 2014, 02:09:50 AM
The book was IMO his only sensible recourse after having been forced off the case.
But back to the atrocious attacks against Mr Amaral while he was a detective working on this case. Read David Roses work in the Mail on 15 September 2007. Count the insults against Mr AMarals professional and personal life and appearance. Have a calculator handy and hope the + button doesnt wear out 8(8-)) Imagine if a Portuguese PR guy today planted stories in the PT press slandering Mr Redwood like that, iInsulting his appearance, dress taste, spying on him whether he has a drink at lunch? I stress this was Sept 2007 and Amaral is being attacked solely for his official police work.
With all the info he seems to have taken from the records, I think he must have written the book whilst still on the case. Certainly whilst he was in the PJ
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: VIXTE on February 01, 2014, 02:22:00 AM
With all the info he seems to have taken from the records, I think he must have written the book whilst still on the case. Certainly whilst he was in the PJ
This makes me think they don't have a data protection act in Portugal. Or sensitive data act.
I would not be able to write a book about cases at work, that would be seen as illegal.. and that is risking being sued big time.
Majority of the professionals in the UK are in the same position.. they all signed data protection documents on they first day at work..
This is why to us in the UK this is 'no-no' land .. any info about your work stays at work.. and in my case I had to sign I would not talk about it for next 7 years after I leave my job.
This is why in my opinion a proper professional cannot go this route.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 01, 2014, 02:32:21 AM
This makes me think they don't have a data protection act in Portugal. Or sensitive data act.
I would not be able to write a book about cases at work, that would be seen as illegal.. and that is risking being sued big time.
Majority of the professionals in the UK are in the same position.. they all signed data protection documents on they first day at work..
This is why to us in the UK this is 'no-no' land .. any info about your work stays at work.. and in my case I had to sign I would not talk about it for next 7 years after I leave my job.
This is why in my opinion a proper professional cannot go this route.
Yes, another good point, VIXTE. This would be illegal in the UK and in many other places.
Haven't read David Rose's work, pegasus, but will have a look.
Anyway, off topic a little folks - I take my responsibility for that.
A new thread by all means if we wish to continue this.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 01, 2014, 02:34:04 AM
With all the info he seems to have taken from the records, I think he must have written the book whilst still on the case. Certainly whilst he was in the PJ
The attacks against Mr Amaral started while he was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book. Imagine how pathetic it would seem if a top portuguese PR guy planted news articles calling Mr Redwood sweaty.
Back to burglary, IMO the open window and shutter are clear indication that the person who opened them did NOT have a key.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: icabodcrane on February 01, 2014, 03:18:29 AM
I am no Amaral fan, and have frequently opined about the flaws and inadequecies of the Portuguese police investigation
Nevertheless there is simply no question that there has been an 'orchestrated' attack on Amaral
To what purpose though ?
That's the real question
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 01, 2014, 08:36:29 AM
Usually if you can't attack the facts, you have to attack the person.
One of the 'facts' being that he should never have been put in charge of this investigation in the first place. The lead investigator and his 2nd in command were both Arguidos in other cases and suspected of criminal activity against witnesses in their custody - for which they were subsequently found guilty.
In view of that and other unsavoury aspects of his life which are in the public arena - then to expect no comments or criticism to be made about him - is to be living in cloud cuckoo land IMO.
I can just imagine the reaction of some sceptics if Gerry McCann turned out to have as much as a speeding ticket. He'd be hung drawn and quartered - and they would have a field day. IMO
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 10:23:56 AM
I am no Amaral fan, and have frequently opined about the flaws and inadequecies of the Portuguese police investigation
Nevertheless there is simply no question that there has been an 'orchestrated' attack on Amaral
To what purpose though ?
That's the real question
You appear to be blinded by your prejudice...amaral has accused an innocent couple of an awful crime...he quite rightly faces a libel trial which I hope he loses...he is a convicted criminal...he was found guilty of fraud against his brother...he sounds like a nasty piece of work to me
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
You appear to be blinded by your prejudice...amaral has accused an innocent couple of an awful crime...he quite rightly faces a libel trial which I hope he loses...he is a convicted criminal...he was found guilty of fraud against his brother...he sounds like a nasty piece of work to me
So ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 10:35:25 AM
You appear to be blinded by your prejudice...amaral has accused an innocent couple of an awful crime...he quite rightly faces a libel trial which I hope he loses...he is a convicted criminal...he was found guilty of fraud against his brother...he sounds like a nasty piece of work to me
Of course he does.
he dared the question the story of the mccanns whom you adore so much.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 10:41:36 AM
he didnt question...again you don't understand the facts..he accused..perhaps if you understood the facts you wo0uoldnt make such stupid comments
Yet again you personify that well known phrase 'that ignorance is bliss'
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 10:50:55 AM
Why is it that a poster cannot simply answer the question posed by a thread..thats all I did...gave my reasons... it seems you cannot stand the truth being told about amaral..that speaks absolute volumes
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 10:53:12 AM
Why is it that a poster cannot simply answer the question posed by a thread..thats all I did...gave my reasons... it seems you cannot stand the truth being told about amaral..that speaks absolute volumes
We have you and others who will not accept it the mccanns who are responsible for Madeleine's predicament.
NOT AMARAL, EVER.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 01, 2014, 10:56:08 AM
Writing books is not part of a police officer's job. He may have used a great deal of material from his work and from the PJ report. But not every police chief writes about his cases.
And he certainly didn't earn millions in police work - only a basic salary in British terms.
Gonçalo Amaral was no longer working for the PJ when he wrote his book, he had already retired. Other ex-policemen have written books about cases, why can't he? He also wrote the book not only to defend his honour but that of the PJ and judicial system which had been maligned systematically in the British press.
If the British press can bring out retired police officers and other so-called experts to analyse the case, I don't see why someone who was actually involved in it can't give his view, especially when his views are based on the police files.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 11:04:00 AM
Gonçalo Amaral was no longer working for the PJ when he wrote his book, he had already retired. Other ex-policemen have written books about cases, why can't he? He also wrote the book not only to defend his honour but that of the PJ and judicial system which had been maligned systematically in the British press.
If the British press can bring out retired police officers and other so-called experts to analyse the case, I don't see why someone who was actually involved in it can't give his view, especially when his views are based on the police files.
Well said Montclair.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 11:22:08 AM
Gonçalo Amaral was no longer working for the PJ when he wrote his book, he had already retired. Other ex-policemen have written books about cases, why can't he? He also wrote the book not only to defend his honour but that of the PJ and judicial system which had been maligned systematically in the British press.
If the British press can bring out retired police officers and other so-called experts to analyse the case, I don't see why someone who was actually involved in it can't give his view, especially when his views are based on the police files.
Amaral had every right to write the book and the mccanns have every right to sue him and the courts have every right to take every penny he earned from the book and give it to the mccanns
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 11:26:44 AM
Why is it that a poster cannot simply answer the question posed by a thread..thats all I did...gave my reasons... it seems you cannot stand the truth being told about amaral..that speaks absolute volumes
Actually, I'm not really interested in Amaral, I'm interested in why you seem to so dislike him.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Montclair on February 01, 2014, 11:30:32 AM
Amaral had every right to write the book and the mccanns have every right to sue him and the courts have every right to take every penny he earned from the book and give it to the mccanns
What you seem to forget is that everything he wrote in his book is corraborated by the police files which are also in the public domain. Also, the McCanns attempt to sue him was only accepted on their 3rd attempt and the book ban was eventually overturned. IMO, this libel case should never have come to the light of day.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 11:34:50 AM
What you seem to forget is that everything he wrote in his book is corraborated by the police files which are also in the public domain. Also, the McCanns attempt to sue him was only accepted on their 3rd attempt and the book ban was eventually overturned. IMO, this libel case should never have come to the light of day.
I forget nothing but you show your complete ignorance of fair play..I defend amarals right to write the book and I defend the mccanns right to sue..you want to deny the mccanns their rights
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 11:37:55 AM
Amaral had every right to write the book and the mccanns have every right to sue him and the courts have every right to take every penny he earned from the book and give it to the mccanns
When are the McCanns going to start paying back people who contributed to the Fund which has so far failed entirely in its aim? And when are they going to be transparent about the accounts? How much has been spent actively searching for Madeleine and how much has been spent on legal fees and travelling around the world? Not to mention paying the mortgage.
Is it right to profit from the disappearance of your daughter?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 11:41:22 AM
When are the McCanns going to start paying back people who contributed to the Fund which has so far failed entirely in its aim? And when are they going to be transparent about the accounts? How much has been spent actively searching for Madeleine and how much has been spent on legal fees and travelling around the world? Not to mention paying the mortgage.
Is it right to profit from the disappearance of your daughter?
I don't see that the fund has failed in its aims..
could you quote directly from the aim(s) it has failed.. I don't think the MccAnns have profited from the disappearance of their daughter
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: j.rob on February 01, 2014, 11:48:19 AM
They are, actually. Because it is a child protection issue to leave three children unattended on consecutive nights. On the night that Madeleine was allegedly abducted by a stranger, the checking system is (conveniently or perhaps not for the McCanns) shown as completely useless as Matt (allegedly) did not see the children. So they may not have been there. Which means the (alleged) abductor would have had even longer in which to take Madeleine and whoever else away.
But, as there is no evidence that an unknown abductor broke in or entered the apartment with the intention of stealing a child, I do not give credence to the McCann version of events. None of it makes any sense.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: j.rob on February 01, 2014, 11:50:50 AM
Gonçalo Amaral was no longer working for the PJ when he wrote his book, he had already retired. Other ex-policemen have written books about cases, why can't he? He also wrote the book not only to defend his honour but that of the PJ and judicial system which had been maligned systematically in the British press.
If the British press can bring out retired police officers and other so-called experts to analyse the case, I don't see why someone who was actually involved in it can't give his view, especially when his views are based on the police files.
He could have a written a book to defend his honour against the press, his superiors, his subordinates, the judicial system, both governments, the NSA, KGB and Mossad if he'd wanted to, but there was no reason to insist that a little girl was dead and her parents were involved in criminal activity in order to do so. IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 12:02:17 PM
He could have a written a book to defend his honour against the press, his superiors, his subordinates, the judicial system, both governments, the NSA, KGB and Mossad if he'd wanted to, but there was no reason to insist that a little girl was dead and her parents were involved in criminal activity in order to do so. IMO.
Presumably that wouldn't have expressed what he believes to the truth.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 12:18:03 PM
I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong but didn't the investigation list a number of possibilities about what may have happened to Maddie. Amarals book, which he calls the truth, only deals with his accusation of the parents. Doesn't he go further and say that this is what in his opinion actually happened...not may have happened...there is a big difference
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 12:24:07 PM
I am no Amaral fan, and have frequently opined about the flaws and inadequecies of the Portuguese police investigation
Nevertheless there is simply no question that there has been an 'orchestrated' attack on Amaral
To what purpose though ?
That's the real question
There was an orchestrated attack on The McCanns long before Amaral's dubious investigation methods came into question.
To what purpose though?
That is a far more interesting question.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2014, 12:26:38 PM
It would have been impossible to write his book after he'd retired. It was published just after the case was shelved. We have a thread on this issue somewhere here.
IMO, it's not just his book, but also his promo tour, his column in CdaM and his "documentary", the latter - as an AV medium - may well have had a greater impact on public opinion.
But what was that impact intended to achieve? Why did his honour depend on attempting to seal a child's fate and the parents' involvement in public opinion in order to regain his "honour"?
Then tabloid press on both sides have been nationalistic, xenophobic and sensationalist and they copied each other's "outrageous" pieces as news in the absence of any other. If there had been a functional police press service, perhaps things might have been different. However, seasoned police officers should realise that. No one can be be expected to be treated as a hero all of the time.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2014, 12:52:45 PM
Presumably that wouldn't have expressed what he believes to the truth.
His primary purpose was to defend his honour, apparently. I might also be a defence against criminal libel in PT.
Excerpts of the book "The Truth of the Lie";
P. 11 "This book appears out of the necessity that I felt of putting back my good name that was vilified in the public domain without the PJ has allowing me to stand up for myself".
--
Maddie died in the bedroom and the abduction was staged Jornal de Notícias
23 July 2008 Thanks to 'astro' for translation
"This book appears from the need that I felt to recover my reputation that was publicly smeared while the institution that I belonged to for 26 years, the Polícia Judiciária, did not give me permission to defend myself or did it institutionally. (…) Later on, I was removed from the investigation", Gonçalo Amaral starts by explaining.
"This book also has a bigger purpose. That of contributing to the discovery of the material truth * and the realisation of justice", he refers, pointing out that the contents "does not, under any circumstance, question the work" from his colleagues at the PJ "or compromise the ongoing investigation".
In his opening note, Gonçalo Amaral indicates that "the reader will find data that he does not know, interpretations of the facts, and, naturally, pertinent questions", stressing that a criminal investigation "should not have to care about what is politically correct".
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id164.html
* The problem that I have with that statement of purpose is that the files had been made public, therefore the public didn't need him to analyse whatever material truth was in them; and he didn't seem to have understood much of his own investigation.
If he had stated that he was faced with an unprecedented situation, with inadequate resources and experience, the challenges of dealing with an international investigation, the press versus judicial secrecy... I'd have had a lot more sympathy for him.
IMO, he simply did not need to assert his allegations that this little girl is necessarily dead as "truth" in order to regain his honour.. or public sympathy.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Montclair on February 01, 2014, 12:58:25 PM
His primary purpose was to defend his honour, apparently. It's also a defence against criminal libel in PT.
Excerpts of the book "The Truth of the Lie";
P. 11 "This book appears out of the necessity that I felt of putting back my good name that was vilified in the public domain without the PJ has allowing me to stand up for myself".
--
Maddie died in the bedroom and the abduction was staged Jornal de Notícias
23 July 2008 Thanks to 'astro' for translation
"This book appears from the need that I felt to recover my reputation that was publicly smeared while the institution that I belonged to for 26 years, the Polícia Judiciária, did not give me permission to defend myself or did it institutionally. (…) Later on, I was removed from the investigation", Gonçalo Amaral starts by explaining.
"This book also has a bigger purpose. That of contributing to the discovery of the material truth * and the realisation of justice", he refers, pointing out that the contents "does not, under any circumstance, question the work" from his colleagues at the PJ "or compromise the ongoing investigation".
In his opening note, Gonçalo Amaral indicates that "the reader will find data that he does not know, interpretations of the facts, and, naturally, pertinent questions", stressing that a criminal investigation "should not have to care about what is politically correct".
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id164.html
* The problem that I have with that statement of purpose is that the files had been made public, therefore the public didn't need him to analyse whatever material truth was in them; and he didn't seem to have understood much of his own investigation.
If he had stated that he was faced with an unprecedented situation, with inadequate resources and experience, the challenges of dealing with an international investigation, the press versus judicial secrecy... I'd have had a lot more sympathy for him.
IMO, he simply did not need to assert his allegations that this little girl is necessarily dead as "truth" in order to regain his honour.. or public sympathy.
Gonçalo Amaral gave his opinion, which was the same as the conclusions in the 10 September 2007 report, and he had every right to since he did not want to see two people get away with committing a crime. This was further aggravated by the fact that the McCanns and their "friends" (read Clarence Mitchell) carried out a vicious campaign not only against GA but also the Portuguese authorities and people.
As for his believe that Madeleine died on the night of 3 May 2007, the McCanns, of course, are fighting that assertion because if it were true then their fund would be a fraud!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 01:00:52 PM
Gonçalo Amaral gave his opinion, which was the same as the conclusions in the 10 September 2007 report, and he had every right to since he did not want to see two people get away with committing a crime. This was further aggravated by the fact that the McCanns and their "friends" (read Clarence Mitchell) carried out a vicious campaign not only against GA but also the Portuguese authorities and people.
As for his believe that Madeleine died on the night of 3 May 2007, the McCanns, of course, are fighting that assertion because if it were true then their fund would be a fraud!
And it is up to the court..not you...to decide if his opinion is libellous...the mccanns have the right to take this action...tough
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Montclair on February 01, 2014, 01:07:15 PM
And it is up to the court..not you...to decide if his opinion is libellous...the mccanns have the right to take this action...tough
The appeals court in October 2010 determined that the book was not libellous and that GA's opinion was based on the facts of the case, which were already in the public domain.
The McCanns are taking everybody and his brother to court for the simple reason that they do not want anyone to see the other side of the coin and to have access to the facts. It is nothing but a PR campaign so that no one will know anything other than what the parents say.
Here in Portugal, the law is transparent and everyone has access to court decisions and they even have the right to disagree with verdicts and to discuss them openly. Even if the judge were to decide that GA committed libel (IMO, unlikely) I still would have the right to say I don't agree with her decision and to discuss it.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 01:13:40 PM
The appeals court in October 2010 determined that the book was not libellous and that GA's opinion was based on the facts of the case, which were already in the public domain.
The McCanns are taking everybody and his brother to court for the simple reason that they do not want anyone to see the other side of the coin and to have access to the facts. It is nothing but a PR campaign so that no one will know anything other than what the parents say.
Here in Portugal, the law is transparent and everyone has access to court decisions and they even have the right to disagree with verdicts and to discuss them openly. Even if the judge were to decide that GA committed libel (IMO, unlikely) I still would have the right to say I don't agree with her decision and to discuss it.
so whats the present trial about...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Montclair on February 01, 2014, 01:19:05 PM
This present trial is a civil case for damages. If you don't agree with what I say, there is no need to be insulting and aggressive, which seems to me to the reaction of someone who does not know how to answer the comment.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2014, 01:48:03 PM
@ Montclair,
Let's go back to the beginning... WHO carried out vicious attacks against Amaral? And WHO made vicious attacks against the McCanns?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 01:51:11 PM
Gonçalo Amaral gave his opinion, which was the same as the conclusions in the 10 September 2007 report, and he had every right to since he did not want to see two people get away with committing a crime. This was further aggravated by the fact that the McCanns and their "friends" (read Clarence Mitchell) carried out a vicious campaign not only against GA but also the Portuguese authorities and people.
As for his believe that Madeleine died on the night of 3 May 2007, the McCanns, of course, are fighting that assertion because if it were true then their fund would be a fraud!
It would only be fraud if it could be be proved that the McCanns knew her to be dead. There may or may not have been fraudulent use of the funds, but that would be a different issue.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 01:58:48 PM
This present trial is a civil case for damages. If you don't agree with what I say, there is no need to be insulting and aggressive, which seems to me to the reaction of someone who does not know how to answer the comment.
If you would stop posting your incorrect opinions as fact it would make things easier...civil damages for what...you said the court has already found in amarals favour...its a libel trial..
the judgement you are referring to was an interim judgement and has no bearing on the decision of this trial..the libel trial...yes thats what I said...the libel trial because it is a libel trial
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 02:03:43 PM
What you seem to forget is that everything he wrote in his book is corraborated by the police files which are also in the public domain. Also, the McCanns attempt to sue him was only accepted on their 3rd attempt and the book ban was eventually overturned. IMO, this libel case should never have come to the light of day.
No it most certainly is not. Please show me the corroberation that on the morning of the 2nd May Madeleine asked her parents why they hadn't come the night before when she cried.
Also from his book: Quote The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there. Unquote
Please show corroboration from the files which shows there is no proof that the twins were asleep in their cots.
QUOTE With amazement the police officers discover a series of books and manuals exclusively intended for police services and government agencies. UNQUOTE
Where is the corroboration for that untrue statement in the files?
Quote In Ireland, the Smiths are watching the BBC news, which is broadcasting the event. For them, it's a shock: that person, they recognise him. That way of carrying his child, that way of walking...It's the man they saw at around 10pm on May 3rd, Unquote
Where is the corroboration in the files that the Smith family positively 100% identified Gerry as the man they saw on 3rd May?
QUOTE Jane Tanner formally identifies Robert Murat. UNQUOTE
Where is the corroboration for that in the files? Where is her 'formal' statement. There is none - because it didn't happen.
QUOTE 2. It seems that the McCanns' friends have reported Maddie's disappearance to the press before informing the police about it UNQUOTE
Where is the corroboration for that accusation? There is none, and the AGs report makes that quite clear.
Quote from AG None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless. Unquote
Unless you can provide the above corroboration then your claim that everything in Amaral's books is corroborated in the police files is a blatently untrue.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 02:08:55 PM
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 02:17:42 PM
According to Montclair, Amaral is fair game......So......
I think he has grossly abused his position in the investigation, and stated that his theory is fact when he has No Evidence. His criminal record and abuse of his brother, and others, is a matter of record.
And his own child care leaves a lot to be desired. (Allegedly - SH)
Apart from that, he obviously does not have the ability to apply reason to anything.
So according to the rights invested in me by The Portuguese Constitution, I shall continue to express what I think. He is fair game.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2014, 02:23:32 PM
According to Montclair, Amaral is fair game......So......
I think he has grossly abused his position in the investigation, and stated that his theory is fact when he has No Evidence. His criminal record and abuse of his brother, and others, is a matter of record. And his own child care leaves a lot to be desired. Apart from that, he obviously does not have the ability to apply reason to anything.
So according to the rights invested in me by The Portuguese Constitution, I shall continue to express what I think. He is fair game.
So according to the rights invested in me by The Portuguese Constitution, I shall continue to express what I think. He is fair game....seconded
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 02:25:21 PM
According to Montclair, Amaral is fair game......So......
I think he has grossly abused his position in the investigation, and stated that his theory is fact when he has No Evidence. His criminal record and abuse of his brother, and others, is a matter of record. And his own child care leaves a lot to be desired. Apart from that, he obviously does not have the ability to apply reason to anything.
So according to the rights invested in me by The Portuguese Constitution, I shall continue to express what I think. He is fair game.
Of course you do, you're a Mitchell.
8(0(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 02:57:13 PM
The appeals court in October 2010 determined that the book was not libellous and that GA's opinion was based on the facts of the case, which were already in the public domain.
The McCanns are taking everybody and his brother to court for the simple reason that they do not want anyone to see the other side of the coin and to have access to the facts. It is nothing but a PR campaign so that no one will know anything other than what the parents say.
Here in Portugal, the law is transparent and everyone has access to court decisions and they even have the right to disagree with verdicts and to discuss them openly. Even if the judge were to decide that GA committed libel (IMO, unlikely) I still would have the right to say I don't agree with her decision and to discuss it.
To take a small example. He heard about / saw police video of certain booklets in the villa and his insinuation was that their presence was highly unusual and therefore suspicious.
The fact is: yes, they were found in the villa.
What is NOT fact is that there was anything suspicious about them, which is what he had made them appear to the average reader.
Are they amongst the group that are 40% neanderthal ?
Look out for the brow ridges. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 01, 2014, 04:28:16 PM
Seeing as we are having a knock about again. I had to Google Mitchell; is it the North American B25 Mitchell bomber or the Mitchell fishing reel made by Carpano and Pons? Please advise
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 04:33:37 PM
Seeing as we are having a knock about again. I had to Google Mitchell; is it the North American B25 Mitchell bomber or the Mitchell fishing reel made by Carpano and Pons? Please advise
I believe it belongs to the pink crested members of Homo Sapiens Bullshittias. 8)--))
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 04:39:46 PM
Seeing as we are having a knock about again. I had to Google Mitchell; is it the North American B25 Mitchell bomber or the Mitchell fishing reel made by Carpano and Pons? Please advise
Pursue it further. The Mitchells have done some amazing things. Apart from largely peopled America and Australia.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 04:48:00 PM
One key difference amongst others, is that I have ethics. 8)-)))
That must be really painful. You have my sympathy.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: comanche on February 01, 2014, 04:49:07 PM
8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)sadly I find your postings always negative and re ethics I don't think so I cannot see u have any standards. U know what my post meant to Eleanor CM is decent guy etc. and helps others. I will not reply to u in future I find your postings nasty and always picking holes.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: comanche on February 01, 2014, 04:55:54 PM
8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)sadly I find your postings always negative and re ethics I don't think so I cannot see u have any standards. U know what my post meant to Eleanor CM is decent guy etc. and helps others. I will not reply to u in future I find your postings nasty and always picking holes.
also extremely boring
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 01, 2014, 04:56:39 PM
8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)sadly I find your postings always negative and re ethics I don't think so I cannot see u have any standards. U know what my post meant to Eleanor CM is decent guy etc. and helps others. I will not reply to u in future I find your postings nasty and always picking holes.
For 75k a year.... A lot of people would 'help' for that sum.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2014, 05:22:51 PM
No it most certainly is not. Please show me the corroberation that on the morning of the 2nd May Madeleine asked her parents why they hadn't come the night before when she cried.
Also from his book: Quote The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there. Unquote
Please show corroboration from the files which shows there is no proof that the twins were asleep in their cots.
QUOTE With amazement the police officers discover a series of books and manuals exclusively intended for police services and government agencies. UNQUOTE
Where is the corroboration for that untrue statement in the files?
Quote In Ireland, the Smiths are watching the BBC news, which is broadcasting the event. For them, it's a shock: that person, they recognise him. That way of carrying his child, that way of walking...It's the man they saw at around 10pm on May 3rd, Unquote
Where is the corroboration in the files that the Smith family positively 100% identified Gerry as the man they saw on 3rd May?
QUOTE Jane Tanner formally identifies Robert Murat. UNQUOTE
Where is the corroboration for that in the files? Where is her 'formal' statement. There is none - because it didn't happen.
QUOTE 2. It seems that the McCanns' friends have reported Maddie's disappearance to the press before informing the police about it UNQUOTE
Where is the corroboration for that accusation? There is none, and the AGs report makes that quite clear.
Quote from AG None of the indications which led to their being made suspects was substantiated later; there was no proof of them having notified the media before the police, the laboratory did not confirm the traces found by the dogs, and the initial e-mail indications transcribed above later turned out to be harmless. Unquote
Unless you can provide the above corroboration then your claim that everything in Amaral's books is corroborated in the police files is a blatently untrue.
Good points, Benice.
The alleged Stu Prior phone conversation isn't in the files, either. And there are quite a few other examples.
Unlike US novels or TV dramatisations that often state at the end that the story was merely inspired by a true case, in this case he seems to be claiming that the entire narrarative is accurate and that a real missing little girl is dead and her parents are involved.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 05:38:04 PM
I trust they were remittance men rather than transportees. 8(0(*
Largely transported to Australia for Sheep Stealing and trying to feed their families. Those who went to America mainly went to escape religious persecution and because they were deprived of their pathetic parcels of land. No Remittance Men. The Mitchells were peasants. And still are to this day. Albeit only in spirit.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 01, 2014, 06:17:42 PM
Gonçalo Amaral was no longer working for the PJ when he wrote his book, he had already retired. Other ex-policemen have written books about cases, why can't he? He also wrote the book not only to defend his honour but that of the PJ and judicial system which had been maligned systematically in the British press.
If the British press can bring out retired police officers and other so-called experts to analyse the case, I don't see why someone who was actually involved in it can't give his view, especially when his views are based on the police files.
That's true, Montclair, that he was no longer working for the PJ when he wrote the book. But as I noted in a later post - and others have noted as well - the contents of the book are brought largely from files and notes compiled during the time he was on the case. By creating this continuum of information of ideas, he himself blurs the line between his police work and his right - as I also noted in a later post - to produce a book.
As for defending aspects of the Portuguese system from attack, it is perfectly reasonable, even honourable that someone should wish to do this. Some of the attacks on the Portuguese handling of the case are just plain xenophobic. (Some are, some not - we have to think carefully on these matters). But given Mr Amaral's involvement in other cases, and aspects of his own record, you have to ask yourself if he was the best person for that job. Mr Amaral is presenting himself here as a self-appointed ambassador for Portuguese justice - and I'm not sure that that has been an entirely clever move.
This thread relates to the idea of Mr Amaral being 'fair game' given the content of his book. The tile of that book alone is a provocation, the 'Truth' part being the claim that Dr Amaral has the monopoly on truth, and the 'Lie' reference being intensely accusatorial in meaning and tone.
Would Mr Amaral have imagined, upon publishing such a work, that he would not be inviting scrutiny and criticism from many quarters? Wasn't that perhaps one of his aims?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 01, 2014, 06:30:56 PM
8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)sadly I find your postings always negative and re ethics I don't think so I cannot see u have any standards. U know what my post meant to Eleanor CM is decent guy etc. and helps others. I will not reply to u in future I find your postings nasty and always picking holes.
As to clarence.................
70k for managing the 'truth'.
Controlling press conferences so no pertinent questions could be asked.
Media manipulator.
Spokesman for the blair government.
Enough said.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 01, 2014, 06:37:22 PM
Amaral said that he would welcome it if The McCanns sued him. And so they did..
I am not entirely sure for why he is now complaining about why they did what he invited them to do.
Either he thought they never would. Or it is not going in the direction that he thought it would.
Did he think that The McCanns were afraid of him? Or did he think that Portugal would wholeheartedly support him in his Libel? Who will ever know?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 01, 2014, 06:48:08 PM
This is totally false. The McCanns have not delayed The Trial.
You simply cannot say that the McCanns have not delayed the trial, because you do not know
Someone asked for a delay so that an out of court settlement could be reached ... only the McCanns could have done that ( Amaral was not legally in a position to have done so )
It is not only possible that the McCanns delayed the trial on that occasion, it is almost certain that they did
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 02, 2014, 02:02:55 AM
Absolute proof that the desperate and childish orchestrated campaign against Mr Amaral's personal and professional life began in full strength long BEFORE he wrote the book, and WHILE he was still working on the case. Read this article by David Rose. Please ignore the date at the top, because this article was pubished on 15th SEPT 2007. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: VIXTE on February 02, 2014, 02:06:22 AM
Absol;ute proof that the orchestrated campaign against Mr Amaral's personal and professional life began in full strength BEFORE he wrote the book and WHILE he was still working on the case. Read this article by David Rose. Please ignore the date at the top. This article was pubished on 15th SEPT 2007. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html Those readers insightful enough to ask the question: wwas the list of insults against Mr Amaral to include in this article (sweaty, corpulentprovided to the journalist by another person, a well known PR type person article
Anyway, who cares about the Amaral? Who is he? A professional that failed to do his job? There are thousands of professionals like that in this world who every day loose their jobs, and they get replaced by better people.. Amaral got replaced by better people, who do their jobs better than he did.. End of story.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 02, 2014, 02:16:49 AM
Mr Amaral is a man of integrity IMO. No way would he sink so low as such childish and desperate insults as "corpulent" "sweaty" "no speak no speak" and I could add dozens more examples from that one article see above. Was someone very good at media manipulation utterly desperate to entice journalists to write very anti-Amaral articles in SEPT 2007 ? Nothing to do with the book, this was a concerted PR attack against an officer WORKING on the PDL case.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 02, 2014, 09:15:14 AM
Mr Amaral is a man of integrity IMO. No way would he sink so low as such childish and desperate insults as "corpulent" "sweaty" "no speak no speak" and I could add dozens more examples from that one article see above. Was someone very good at media manipulation utterly desperate to entice journalists to write very anti-Amaral articles in SEPT 2007 ? Nothing to do with the book, this was a concerted PR attack against an officer WORKING on the PDL case.
LOL - do you really think reporters and editors had to be 'enticed' to write anti-Amaral articles - (or any McCann related articles for that matter)?. To believe that you have to believe that reporters and editors would not dream of writing anything nasty about that nice Mr. Amaral of their own accord- because as we all know Reporters and editors are all cuddly, warmhearted peeps who only ever print the truth - and are not the slightest bit interested in libelling anyone in the pursuit of profit - and who apparently just sit there obediently waiting for instructions from the McCanns. What a load of BS that is.
If the McCanns were orchestrating anti-Amaral stuff in the press - then surely that fact would have been exposed and used against them by reporters/editors in the Leveson Enquiry? But not a word. And why would the McCanns be in favour of Lord Leveson's recommendations anyway? If they are 'controlling' the press - then they are the last people in the world who would want that wonderful position to change - and yet they support the recommendations for serious change wholeheartedly. IOW they have done the complete opposite of what anyone in such a powerful position would do.
Blaming the McCanns for everything that appears in the media has become just another easy and convenient stick to beat them with IMO.
As for Amaral being a man of integrity. Surely you cannot possibly be serious?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 09:18:54 AM
Who were these people working for and who paid them?
When you look at their website, they seem to specialise in reputation management internationally for Corporations. Makes you wonder how and why they got involved with the McCanns.
As you rightly ask, who financed them?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: drummer on February 02, 2014, 09:57:35 AM
IMO Some of Amaral's supporters did more damage to his reputation than anyone. I'm sure he cringed a few times when he learned of their ridiculous campaigns and stalking events.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 02, 2014, 10:12:21 AM
I've no idea (page freezes for me btw). Who are they? And where does it say they helped to promote Anti Amaral articles in the Press?
Why is it so hard for some people to believe that it would be impossible for the McCanns to have coped with such a huge amount of media attention? They were no more used to dealing with the media than any other ordinary person in the street and there would not have been enough hours in the day for them to cope with it anyway.
Having an official experienced spokesman to deal with the media meant a massive untenable burden was taken off their shoulders. Why something which was so obviously a great help to them has to be twisted into something with sinister undertones, is a mystery to me.
But then to some people it doesn't matter what the McCanns do or say - they are always wrong in some people's eyes imo. (That's a general comment btw - not directed at anyone in particular)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
It does rather beggar belief that a detective as experienced and senior as Amaral was, apparently, failed to understand basic protocols and procedures of policing. For example, it is basic procedure (so far as I know) of police forces around the world, and certainly of British and Portuguese police, to take individual witness statements from witnesses.
So was it mere incompetence, or a lie, that prompted Amaral to say in his book that the Gaspars gave a joint statement? The fact that they gave separate statements is crucial, because Mr G's statement could scarcely be more different from his wife's, and runs (almost) like a glowing character-reference.
And Amaral even gets one (critical) aspect of Mrs G's statement wrong.
And you talk about orchastred attacks?
He doesn't seem to have paid much notice to the fact that Mr G didn't actually agree with his wife's interpretation... But then, he has exaggerated what the Smith family actually said, and has selective amnesia about the fact that the children disagreed.
Police work isn't about cherry-picking details out of context, is it? If so, why?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 02, 2014, 12:16:12 PM
But then to some people it doesn't matter what the McCanns do or say - they are always wrong in some people's eyes imo. (That's a general comment btw - not directed at anyone in particular)
Sad thing is, same is true on both sides. Some people can't entertain the fact that they may be wrong.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 12:27:22 PM
Absolute proof that the desperate and childish orchestrated campaign against Mr Amaral's personal and professional life began in full strength long BEFORE he wrote the book, and WHILE he was still working on the case. Read this article by David Rose. Please ignore the date at the top, because this article was pubished on 15th SEPT 2007. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html
This article is quite factual..its not an attack on amaral its an expose on a man who should not have been involved in the investigation because he was facing criminal charges
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2014, 12:56:19 PM
This article is quite factual..its not an attack on amaral its an expose on a man who should not have been involved in the investigation because he was facing criminal charges
That article says more about the campaign against The McCanns than it say about a campaign against Amaral.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 01:08:35 PM
When you look at their website, they seem to specialise in reputation management internationally for Corporations. Makes you wonder how and why they got involved with the McCanns.
As you rightly ask, who financed them?
only a benefactor or the fund
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 01:09:48 PM
It does rather beggar belief that a detective as experienced and senior as Amaral was, apparently, failed to understand basic protocols and procedures of policing. For example, it is basic procedure (so far as I know) of police forces around the world, and certainly of British and Portuguese police, to take individual witness statements from witnesses.
So was it mere incompetence, or a lie, that prompted Amaral to say in his book that the Gaspars gave a joint statement?
The fact that they gave separate statements is crucial, because Mr G's statement could scarcely be more different from his wife's, and runs (almost) like a glowing character-reference.
And Amaral even gets one (critical) aspect of Mrs G's statement wrong.
And you talk about orchastred attacks?
What a bunch of irrelevant nonsense!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 01:15:39 PM
Absolute proof that the desperate and childish orchestrated campaign against Mr Amaral's personal and professional life began in full strength long BEFORE he wrote the book, and WHILE he was still working on the case. Read this article by David Rose. Please ignore the date at the top, because this article was pubished on 15th SEPT 2007. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html
That was fairly mild compared to some totally peurile and unprofessional articles in the press!
So David Rose, nicknamed the "disinformer" decided it was relevant in a "serious article" to say I met the sweaty corpulent figure slurpng his cofee, what a prize idiot, I suppose he sips his and never sweats in the heat
he needs to look no further than one of the mccanns lawyers to see what a really sweaty corpulent figure actually looks like
@)(++(*
from 2.20
Plank
I wont mention tony the parsons.....spit
Oh and pegasus the articles started before sept 07 and as you say way way before his book!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 01:22:06 PM
Couldn't have been cheap, though. They seem high-powered bunch with tentacles all over Westminster and related areas. Makes me wonder why they were bothered with something as trivial ( in their world of Corporate work)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 01:35:10 PM
Couldn't have been cheap, though. They seem high-powered bunch with tentacles all over Westminster and related areas. Makes me wonder why they were bothered with something as trivial ( in their world of Corporate work)
Ah, well, no idea, no comment.....
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 02, 2014, 01:36:22 PM
Ah, with it now 8(>(( It does seem a petty point from the GA obsessives.
Very.....whch translates to scraping the bottom of the barrel...and not in a million years compares to the subject here, the ongoing orchestrated personal attack on Mr Amaral over months and months...also including the PJ and in some circles whole of Portugal.....Kate Mccann included as a perpetrator on all fronts there
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2014, 01:45:49 PM
This article is quite factual..its not an attack on amaral its an expose on a man who should not have been involved in the investigation because he was facing criminal charges
I agree with that, and it does seem to be quite well researched.
I don't agree about remarks concerning his (anyone's) physical appearance unless they were relevant.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 02, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
Oh and in another answer to the OP
the Mccanns are fair game for comment as also stated by the appelant court! when they "unbanned" amarals book Thy also wrote a book, gave hundreds of interviews, made four million plus, which they havent as promised been transparent about, evaded questions,were never cleared, exhibited strange behaviours, had discrepancies and changes in their account of events,etc etc fair game, oh yes, absolutely and totally, its most ridiculous at best that anyone suggests no one should comment or discuss....
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 02:45:50 PM
the Mccanns are fair game for comment as also stated by the appelant court! when they "unbanned" amarals book Thy also wrote a book, gave hundreds of interviews, made four million plus, which they havent as promised been transparent about, evaded questions,were never cleared, exhibited strange behaviours, had discrepancies and changes in their account of events,etc etc fair game, oh yes, absolutely and totally, its most ridiculous at best that anyone suggests no one should comment or discuss....
You need to understand the difference between fair comment and libel....they are not the same
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 02, 2014, 03:52:19 PM
This article is quite factual..its not an attack on amaral its an expose on a man who should not have been involved in the investigation because he was facing criminal charges
IMO the anti-Amaral "Lies" article in SEPT 2007 is every bit as non-factual and externally provided as was the much earlier propaganda intended solely to decieve the UK public re wmds.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on February 02, 2014, 04:58:57 PM
I think amaral managed to discredit himself...he didn't need any help...and therefore discredited the investigation...he was sacked
You could say that about the McCanns as well Dave. They were shit parents and Mrs Healey agreed. Leaving three small children alone in a strange apartment night after night was asking for trouble.
Back on topic, I believe Gonçalo knew exactly what he was doing when he set out to reveal the truth of the lie. He would not have gone down the road he did had he not been forced to do so. Sometimes you just have to stand up for what you believe in regardless of the cost.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on February 02, 2014, 05:13:28 PM
Never fear, our censors will delete anything which crosses the line. 8(0(*
ps any more Dave?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 05:33:43 PM
You could say that about the McCanns as well Dave. They were shit parents and Mrs Healey agreed. Leaving three small children alone in a strange apartment night after night was asking for trouble.
Back on topic, I believe Gonçalo knew exactly what he was doing when he set out to reveal the truth of the lie. He would not have gone down the road he did had he not been forced to do so. Sometimes you just have to stand up for what you believe in regardless of the cost.
I think amaral was a complete fool...if he had wanted to write the book he could have done it in away that wasn't libellous...suggested things that may have happened...he didn't dream the mcccanns would sue him in portugal
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 02, 2014, 05:45:25 PM
I think amaral was a complete fool...if he had wanted to write the book he could have done it in away that wasn't libellous...suggested things that may have happened...he didn't dream the mcccanns would sue him in portugal
Did I miss something? Has the judge ruled?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 02, 2014, 05:45:59 PM
He'll only prove to be foolish if he loses the case and has to pay a hefty sum. If he wins, he won't be looking foolish at all. The judge will decide - eventually.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on February 02, 2014, 07:07:05 PM
I guess that if Dr Amaral is fair game for writing a book, Dr K Mccann is too.
Should I start referring to her as 'mccann, the disgraced former GP'?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 02, 2014, 07:11:52 PM
This article is quite factual..its not an attack on amaral its an expose on a man who should not have been involved in the investigation because he was facing criminal charges
What is not factual in this article?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on February 02, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
Probably not a lot. It is written with some emotive terms leading the reader down a particular path. Setting it out in bullet points would be better to judge against but the journos editor would give him the bums rush for doing that. "The investigating officer" is not half as good as "a fat sweaty old geezer in suit that fits him where it touches, swilling coffee and noshing cakes and spilling it down his front"................................if you see what I mean. But as my old man used to say there are ways and ways of telling the truth. The trick is being able to sort the wheat from the chaff. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2014, 12:33:39 PM
Probably not a lot. It is written with some emotive terms leading the reader down a particular path. Setting it out in bullet points would be better to judge against but the journos editor would give him the bums rush for doing that. "The investigating officer" is not half as good as "a fat sweaty old geezer in suit that fits him where it touches, swilling coffee and noshing cakes and spilling it down his front"................................if you see what I mean. But as my old man used to say there are ways and ways of telling the truth. The trick is being able to sort the wheat from the chaff. >@@(*&)
Personally, I think that he could have left out the descriptive remarks about his appearance. Immaculately dressed officers are also capable of jumping to premature conclusions. That said, I haven't found anything factual to quibble about.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 03, 2014, 12:39:38 PM
Personally, I think that he could have left out the descriptive remarks about his appearance. Immaculately dressed officers are also capable of jumping to premature conclusions. That said, I haven't found anything factual to quibble about.
Mr Amaral had an exemplary record and much success as a police officer especially against drug distributors so it was unfortunate that his minions let him down. One mistake doesn't make him a criminal as some like to suggest.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 03, 2014, 12:53:02 PM
Mr Amaral had an exemplary record and much success as a police officer especially against drug distributors so it was unfortunate that his minions let him down. One mistake doesn't make him a criminal as some like to suggest.
So you think it is okay for a Senior Detective to cover up a crime and then lie about it in Court?
He might have been a whizz at catching drug runners, but he knew diddly squat about finding missing children. He totally ignored any evidence that didn't point to the parents on both counts.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 03, 2014, 12:55:58 PM
So you think it is okay for a Senior Detective to cover up a crime and then lie about it in Court?
He might have been a whizz at catching drug runners, but he knew diddly squat about finding missing children. He totally ignored any evidence that didn't point to the parents on both counts.
What evidence, in this case?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on February 03, 2014, 01:00:21 PM
So you think it is okay for a Senior Detective to cover up a crime and then lie about it in Court?
He might have been a whizz at catching drug runners, but he knew diddly squat about finding missing children. He totally ignored any evidence that didn't point to the parents on both counts.
He did an excellent job in the Cipriano case putting those two dysfunctionals behind bars.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 03, 2014, 01:01:18 PM
He did an excellent job in the Cipriano case putting those two dysfunctionals behind bars.
He certainly knew how to get confessions beaten out of witnesses. And how to run a publicity campaign against parents. And if you think that The Cipriano Verdict was safe after what you went through then you have lost your way.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 03, 2014, 01:15:36 PM
So round we go again. 8)><( The investigation continued for nine months after Dr Amaral was given the elbow. The archiving report and the archiving dispatch were signed off by the relevant justice. Whatever the justice may or may not have been reported to have said he "signed off" on the documents. We all know what those documents said because they are available for all to read.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2014, 01:18:22 PM
Mr Amaral had an exemplary record and much success as a police officer especially against drug distributors so it was unfortunate that his minions let him down. One mistake doesn't make him a criminal as some like to suggest.
According to whom?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 03, 2014, 01:34:45 PM
Apparently Amaral single handedly worked out that drugs and contraband were being run into small coves. Like wot they had been doing in Cornwall for more than 500 years.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 03, 2014, 01:41:04 PM
Mr Amaral had an exemplary record and much success as a police officer especially against drug distributors so it was unfortunate that his minions let him down. One mistake doesn't make him a criminal as some like to suggest.
How exactly does that work, Angelo? He has in fact been found guilty of a criminal offence by a Portuguese court.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 03, 2014, 01:46:36 PM
An Accolade -Gonçalo Amaral (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eZIN5rOOtCM/R3OqkdtrFgI/AAAAAAAAAAM/L_ep35MTuHg/S220/ASFICPJ.png)
ASFIC - PJ Professional Association of Employees of the Judicial Police Criminal Investigation
Thursday, July 3, 2008 CONVERSATION BETWEEN POLICE ... When, in late 1983 (now gone about 25 years) I and some colleagues, completed the training course at the School, were put on the Core Stage running in then SCITE / CICD, installed at the bottom of Rua Conde Redondo , there we find a group of police investigators whose characteristics, individual and group, and how you work, took us (at least to most of us) want there to be definitively placed.
In fact, motivation and dedication to service, enthusiasm and joy with which played its role, competence and professionalism they showed were for us graduates in the School of Clay, assured that the profession so that we started was translated a full activity of achievement and a magnificent career and a bright future.
Most of these colleagues were roughly our age, a little older than us, immediately preceding, and thus with the recently completed their training course.
Among them was Goncalo Amaral. Perhaps more hair and now possibly a little lighter. The rest was equal. Already when surprised in their delivery to the profession, competence, who demonstrated the confidence with which he worked, the courage with which ran throughout and faced all kinds of situations and opponents. Likewise, it was evident the willingness with which he faced setbacks and adversities of function as well as the tolerance that viewed the play, sometimes irreverent one or another colleague (and I say so, that conscience accuses me of having been not infrequently).
Later Goncalo would work in Faro and Ponta Delgada. Always with the personal and professional capacity availability to it characteristics. And in all the many valences that are now of the work of a researcher of the Judicial Police. Investigating homicides or collecting information about organized criminal networks. Analyzing documentation relating to complex financial transactions or capturing dangerous individuals. No escape difficulties or fading to setbacks. Giving face and going to struggle. Always.
Again in Lisbon and combating drug trafficking, was named Goncalo also as agent to lead a brigade of Research in DCITE Who was at that time in that department, remember that the results achieved by this brigade, under the charismatic leadership of Gonçalo Amaral as soon exceeded the average statistics. The figures obtained for himself and his men, either as individuals detained, either as a narcotic product or property and assets seized or even convictions achieved in Court marked an era in DCITE and constituted an example.
I know. I remember it well. Was there. Build up the leadership of the Brigade with the proviso college student. And its characteristic shape of head, always direct and frontal, in a permanent leadership style and fully assumed, always present and always available, not impossible that, in the shortest amount of time allowed, graduating in law. Despite their previous training is Engineering.
We again find ourselves in the course of promoting the Subinspector. Again Goncalo has demonstrated its remarkable ability to work because they did this course, intensive and demanding, accumulated with the leadership of the Brigade of Research. Pat was also and once again, its significant ability to study, having completed the course in first place among 99 colleagues. Would come later and logical and natural sequence of his career and his life journey competing at the Coordinator of Criminal Investigation, and as expected, was promoted to that functional category shortly after.
After ... Well, about a year ago, we all watched, stunned, to a kind of spectacle hitherto unheard of among us. How Faith in automobiles in the past, certain media (mainly English, but unfortunately not only this) "melted" in the public square a man of Portuguese Judicial Police. Table Top Career Criminal Investigation. Our colleague and friend of many of us. Murder of a character as any other staff of this House had been the victim until then. And why? Because, as was always his prerogative, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral, Coordinator of Criminal Investigation of the Judicial Police, was the struggle, strove assumed faced courageously and decisively, the difficulties and setbacks of a case of highly complex service and contours still, and perhaps forever undefined.
Perhaps for the first time in the history of the Judicial Police, a researcher is exposed in the public square and private life probed. Just to be investigating a case suspicious. To be working. Perhaps the Portuguese State, the Government, our Judicial Police, should have mechanisms to protect their representatives in situations like this. To protect them in the exercise of their profession for the benefit of the Public Service. Perhaps we all, professional colleagues, we should have taken in, and living up to the famous, traditional and much-vaunted "Spirit Body" saying peculiar to our "house", we should be in, somehow manifested in support of Dr . Gonçalo Amaral.
None of that happened. Gonçalo stood alone. If this strategy to catch tomorrow, against powerful and well-connected defendants may be other researchers to suffer this ordeal skin. Could be any of us. And it can, somehow, be the end of the criminal investigation. At least the way we envision and develop.
Let this case serve on discussion. And sample. And allow us to create ways to avoid a repeat. The ASFICPJ itself should perhaps consider, serious, conscientious and thoroughly, and serene and constructive way, this whole situation. It is also their duty.
Gonçalo friend, I sincerely regret your departure Judicial Police, which seems too early because I admit I could give more to the cause of Society, Justice and Public Service. Our "Home", moreover, does not have many features, quality and quantity, to afford to the non-viability or worse, leaving the waste.
It remains for me, given the reality of the facts, thank you for your friendship and wish you all the best and every success in the new stage of your life I decided to start.
Lisbon, 03 July 2008
John Fernandes Figueira Associate ASFIC / PJ paragraph. 711
Mr Amaral had an exemplary record and much success as a police officer especially against drug distributors so it was unfortunate that his minions let him down. One mistake doesn't make him a criminal as some like to suggest.
he is a criminal as he has been convicted of a criminal offence...howver much you and others try to spin it its true
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 03, 2014, 01:58:12 PM
'When Gonçalo went out of the PJ door there was no one saying goodbye to him'
By Nigel Moore 05 December 2008
The 30th of June 2008 marked Gonçalo Amaral's last day of service for the PJ. It was a day that passed like many before, in a proud 27-year career, with the apprehension of two and a half tons of hashish and the detention of six traffickers.
After handing in his duty pistol, his badge, his card and his service mobile phone it was time to close the door on a job which he had served proudly and to which he had dedicated his life.
For Gonçalo Amaral, it had been more than just a 'job'.
"He would have rather preferred being a cop until he died," says Sofia Leal, Gonçalo Amaral's wife, talking exclusively to 'mccannfiles.com'. "He loves me very much and he loves the girls, but he really lived for his job."
What should have been a momentous and joyous day, looking forward to the new chapter and new challenges of retirement - armed with the well wishes and plaudits of his colleagues - instead became tinged with sadness and profound disappointment.
"When Gonçalo went out of the PJ door there was no one saying goodbye to him. No director. No one. After a life dedicated to the PJ, it was what most got him down," says Sofia.
The nature of the departure, and premature retirement, made it difficult to get an aim for his life until he got busy with the presentations of his book, 'Maddie: A Verdade da Mentira'.
"Gonçalo had a bad time with his retirement, but it was the anonymous bloggers and common citizens that he met everyday in the street that were his support.
"Although we've tried to give him strength and hope, we were supposed to, weren't we? It was the people that he never knew before, and most of them he will never meet, that were the true providers of hope for Gonçalo Amaral."
Sofia was able to confirm that editions of 'Maddie: The Truth of the Lie' were now assured in France, Germany, Holland, Norway, Sweden and Finland. There is no concrete news of a UK release date yet, although negotiations are progressing well.
Finally, Sofia revealed that some weeks ago she wrote a letter "to a friend of mine that lives in the UK," and had "until now, got no answer". She wonders "if everything is ok?"
"She lives in Rothley."
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on February 03, 2014, 02:04:01 PM
He certainly knew how to get confessions beaten out of witnesses. And how to run a publicity campaign against parents. And if you think that The Cipriano Verdict was safe after what you went through then you have lost your way.
For heavens sake Eleanor, Leonor confessed before the investigating magistrate before her new lawyer persuaded her to fight the case. Not a finger had been laid on her as up until that moment she had been allowed home. You really must try and understand the facts.
The only reason Leonor confessed was because just for a moment, she regretted what she had done.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on February 03, 2014, 02:04:45 PM
All very sad.
To get back to the original question, whilst he was a serving police officer, and fulfilling his role, he was protected from any legal action. He enjoyed legal privilege.
Having resigned, and having taken the unusual step of writing a book accusing the McCanns of various criminal acts, without due process, he no longer has that protection. He has thus rendered himself "fair game".
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on February 03, 2014, 02:10:02 PM
To get back to the original question, whilst he was a serving police officer, and fulfilling his role, he was protected from any legal action. He enjoyed legal privilege.
Having resigned, and having taken the unusual step of writing a book accusing the McCanns of various criminal acts, without due process, he no longer has that protection. He has thus rendered himself "fair game".
Absolutely Jean-Pierre, he had no choice but to take the route he did so as to blow the whole sodden mess apart.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2014, 05:31:28 PM
Gonçalo Amaral retired since midnight, to "savour freedom of expression"
Tuesday 01 July 2008 Thanks to 'astro' for translation
Just enigmatic enough, Gonçalo Amaral, aged 49, had his last day at the PJ yesterday, "a perfectly normal day". He arrived early, finished the operation into the process that lead, over the weekend, to the apprehension of two and a half tons of hashish and the detention of six traffickers, and dispatched a few more cases. Before lunch, which lasted from 1 p.m. until 3 p.m., the controversial coordinator of criminal investigation delivered his duty pistol, his badge and his card at the Faro Directory. At the end of the day, around 5.30 p.m., he delivered his service mobile phone. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id139.html
That was published on 1 July. If the haul had taken place the previous weekend, that would have been 28/29 June. If it had been the weekend following his departure, then he had no reason to be there and had already handed in his weapon, badge and phone.
After such a magnificent scoop, it seems a bit odd that no one said goodbye to him (according to his ex-wife).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 03, 2014, 05:47:49 PM
Apparently Amaral single handedly worked out that drugs and contraband were being run into small coves. Like wot they had been doing in Cornwall for more than 500 years.
And he was so good at his job - he was then overlooked for promotion:-
Quote from Sofia's letter to Kate
My husband applied to the category of Superior Coordinator, and in between drug apprehensions, sequestrations and homicides, he somehow managed to produce a thesis about drug trafficking by sea, which he defended in Lisbon, in front of a Jury that congratulated him. Full of hope, Gonçalo Amaral returns to the Algarve and awaits the result. To his surprise, he was passed over by other colleagues, because he had not been able to score points in the "professional formation" parameter. That's right, Mrs Kate, my husband spent his life working, involved in complex investigations, he was the man who apprehended the highest volumes of drugs in Portugal, but given the fact that he had no time to go to Lisbon to parade himself up and down the corridors of the PJ's Institute, he was not promoted. End quote
What any of that has got to do with Kate is anyone's guess.
Pure speculation on my part - but I've always had a sneaky feeling that she got a lot of help with that letter - especially with that bit above.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 04, 2014, 01:42:35 AM
It is only thanks to excellent sources KM and CM and a regional newspaper that we know that mr + mrs blair + brown + a milliband all phoned at various times. But can anyone remember the source that claimed one of them phoned someone early Oct 2007 to check that Mr Amaral had been got rid of? (I lost the link). Also anyone know date of a meeting between UK/PT leaders re treaty around that time ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on February 05, 2014, 09:38:41 AM
The Cipriano related posts are being moved to a new thread. Please only post here comments related to the thread theme...was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 01:04:26 AM
And he was so good at his job - he was then overlooked for promotion:-
Quote from Sofia's letter to Kate
My husband applied to the category of Superior Coordinator, and in between drug apprehensions, sequestrations and homicides, he somehow managed to produce a thesis about drug trafficking by sea, which he defended in Lisbon, in front of a Jury that congratulated him. Full of hope, Gonçalo Amaral returns to the Algarve and awaits the result. To his surprise, he was passed over by other colleagues, because he had not been able to score points in the "professional formation" parameter. That's right, Mrs Kate, my husband spent his life working, involved in complex investigations, he was the man who apprehended the highest volumes of drugs in Portugal, but given the fact that he had no time to go to Lisbon to parade himself up and down the corridors of the PJ's Institute, he was not promoted. End quote
What any of that has got to do with Kate is anyone's guess.
Pure speculation on my part - but I've always had a sneaky feeling that she got a lot of help with that letter - especially with that bit above.
So not getting a promotion is used to attack Mr Amaral? By the same reasoning if hypothetically Mr Amaral previously advised PT government on radiation in medical devices but doesn't any more would that imply he was anything less than a brilliant worker? No certainly not.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 01:42:37 PM
Anyone know of a concerted personal attack against Mr Amaral being fed to the UK press before the article dated approx 15 Sept 2007 (see link above). Was that the first?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 07, 2014, 08:22:30 PM
Absolutely Jean-Pierre, he had no choice but to take the route he did so as to blow the whole sodden mess apart.
Do you think he has been successful in blowing the whole sodden mess apart...the only thing he seems to have blown apart is himself....and his marriage...and his finances
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 07, 2014, 08:24:27 PM
Do you think he has been successful in blowing the whole sodden mess apart...the only thing he seems to have blown apart is himself....and his marriage...and his finances
Let's see the result of the trial in Portugal, followed by the appeals......
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 07, 2014, 08:26:41 PM
Do you think he has been successful in blowing the whole sodden mess apart...the only thing he seems to have blown apart is himself....and his marriage...and his finances
This is so true. Never have I seen such self destruction.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 07, 2014, 08:27:55 PM
Let's see the result of the trial in Portugal, followed by the appeals......
we have already seen the article by amaral in the Norwegian paper where he talks like a broken man...as you quite rightly say his appeals could go on and on so he will be miserable forever
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 07, 2014, 08:29:09 PM
we have already seen the article by amaral in the Norwegian paper where he talks like a broken man...as you quite rightly say his appeals could go on and on so he will be miserable forever
As could the mccanns of course.
The purveyors of this case.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 07, 2014, 08:32:45 PM
Do you think he has been successful in blowing the whole sodden mess apart...the only thing he seems to have blown apart is himself....and his marriage...and his finances
Just a reminder that the original investigation heavily involved many UK professionals also. The attacks on the original investigation however, cautiously attack only the Portuguese people involved, especially Mr Amaral, and never attack the Brits involved in the very same investigative course.
If Mr Amaral had flirted in court or had some relative involved in some dodgy trick even for only for ten seconds, oh what happy field days his attackers would have.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 08, 2014, 03:23:08 AM
Just a reminder that the original investigation heavily involved many UK professionals also. The attacks on the original investigation however, cautiously attack only the Portuguese people involved, especially Mr Amaral, and never attack the Brits involved in the very same investigative course.
If Mr Amaral had flirted in court or had some relative involved in some dodgy trick even for only for ten seconds, oh what happy field days his attackers would have.
[/b]
I find it quite inexplicable that the McCanns can be accused of any old thing on this forum - no matter how insulting - 24/7 as a matter of course - and yet they have never even been charged with any offence. But apparently Amaral is not to be criticised - almost as if he had practically nothing to do with this case and yet as Lead Investigator - if it wasn't for his decision to 'blame the parents' - in particular the mother - we would probably not be here now.
The man has a criminal conviction for lying and abusing his position as a policeman. He has a conviction for fraud. He is an adulterer and according to his wife a drunk driver. And yet we are supposed to ignore all that? Why? Would you ignore it if it was GM who had that same history? I strongly suspect not.
To my knowledge the Portuguese people have never been attacked - only elements of the PJ. And deservedly so IMO considering one is a convicted liar and another is a convicted torturer.
Where is your common sense?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on February 08, 2014, 06:06:05 AM
It is remarkably difficult to find anywhere in the world such an orchestrated attack on a detective's private and professional life simply because in his job he accused a foreign individual of concealment.
In my opinion he was targeted because he was the team leader. From the files it is easy to see that other men in the PJ contributed to the interpretation that he finally used in his book.
Much more relevant than the book were, for instance Ricardo Paiva's and others reports about the couples behaviour, but especially the Tavares the Almeida Report in Sep 2007 [http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm)] which, even under Paulo Rebelo's coordination, was the basis for the observations in the Final Report & later in the Archival Report about the non clearance of the McCann.
The fact that Amaral chose to remove himself from the police, in order to be able to clarify the facts and defend his honour by writing a book. only gave the McCann the opportunity to go after him like jackals with their pack. It's typical of predators to attack the isolated victim, and Amaral made himself the most exposed one.
However he is not the only or main target, the PJ as a whole is. See today's Mirror opinion by Lord Stevens [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lord-stevens-hunt-madeleine-mccann-3123394#ixzz2sgZmTI1D (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lord-stevens-hunt-madeleine-mccann-3123394#ixzz2sgZmTI1D), as if the British Police never had an Operation Countryman or an Operation Tiberius. By the way, giving Princess Diana as the example how the British police interferes with ongoing investigations overseas was a shot in the foot.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 08, 2014, 07:41:08 AM
In my opinion he was targeted because he was the team leader. From the files it is easy to see that other men in the PJ contributed to the interpretation that he finally used in his book.
Much more relevant than the book were, for instance Ricardo Paiva's and others reports about the couples behaviour, but especially the Tavares the Almeida Report in Sep 2007 [http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm)] which, even under Paulo Rebelo's coordination, was the basis for the observations in the Final Report & later in the Archival Report about the non clearance of the McCann.
The fact that Amaral chose to remove himself from the police, in order to be able to clarify the facts and defend his honour by writing a book. only gave the McCann the opportunity to go after him like jackals with their pack. It's typical of predators to attack the isolated victim, and Amaral made himself the most exposed one.
However he is not the only or main target, the PJ as a whole is. See today's Mirror opinion by Lord Stevens [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lord-stevens-hunt-madeleine-mccann-3123394#ixzz2sgZmTI1D (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lord-stevens-hunt-madeleine-mccann-3123394#ixzz2sgZmTI1D), as if the British Police never had an Operation Countryman or an Operation Tiberius. By the way, giving Princess Diana as the example how the British police interferes with ongoing investigations overseas was a shot in the foot.
I though this sentence was interesting.
Quote
This was not easy as we faced a concerted campaign to discredit the inquiry. It took more than 15 years and three linked inquiries to get to the bottom of what had been going on.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lord-stevens-hunt-madeleine-mccann-3123394#ixzz2siKxUWrX Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 09:27:30 AM
I find it quite inexplicable that the McCanns can be accused of any old thing on this forum - no matter how insulting - 24/7 as a matter of course - and yet they have never even been charged with any offence. But apparently Amaral is not to be criticised - almost as if he had practically nothing to do with this case and yet as Lead Investigator - if it wasn't for his decision to 'blame the parents' - in particular the mother - we would probably not be here now.
The man has a criminal conviction for lying and abusing his position as a policeman. He has a conviction for fraud. He is an adulterer and according to his wife a drunk driver. And yet we are supposed to ignore all that? Why? Would you ignore it if it was GM who had that same history? I strongly suspect not.
To my knowledge the Portuguese people have never been attacked - only elements of the PJ. And deservedly so IMO considering one is a convicted liar and another is a convicted torturer.
Where is your common sense?
This is a free speech forum Benice and as long as what you are saying is true the your posts are permitted.
So if I say that amaral ia a convicted liar...and that he was sacked from the Maddie case for misconduct...that he drove his car whilst drunk with his daughter ..then that should be ok
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 08, 2014, 09:29:53 AM
If you read the new section on the private investigators employed by the McCanns and their supporters in 2007 you will be gobsmacked at the cosy relationship exposed in the who's who.
This is a free speech forum Benice and as long as what you are saying is true the your posts are permitted.
So if I say that amaral ia a convicted liar...and that he was sacked from the Maddie case for misconduct...that he drove his car whilst drunk with his daughter ..then that should be ok
Can you prove the latter comment Davel?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 09:32:17 AM
This is a free speech forum Benice and as long as what you are saying is true the your posts are permitted.
So if I say that amaral ia a convicted liar...and that he was sacked from the Maddie case for misconduct...that he drove his car whilst drunk with his daughter ..then that should be ok
Perfectly fine by me, but is that really relevant to anything?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 08, 2014, 09:36:36 AM
Out of interest what was the misconduct which caused him to be removed from the Maddie case Davel?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 09:37:52 AM
There is a letter of complaint from Amaral's wife, stamped with an official PJ Stamp, stating that Amaral drove his daughter around when he was drunk. Unless you think she was lying of course.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 09:40:28 AM
There is a letter of complaint from Amaral's wife, stamped with an official PJ Stamp, stating that Amaral drove his daughter around when he was drunk. Unless you think she was lying of course.
Do you have proof of this ?
Was it rescinded ?
How many police officiers drink in the UK when on duty ?
Do members of the current Met team drink during their lunchtime break ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 09:41:05 AM
Perfectly fine by me, but is that really relevant to anything?
Its extremely relevant........This si the man who was in charge of the investigation...now thats a disgrace...he is a proven liar so anything he writes may be suspect..imo
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 09:45:26 AM
How many police officiers drink in the UK when on duty ?
Do members of the current Met team drink during their lunchtime break ?
I don't have any figures for policemen drinking whilst on duty..do you..have you ever seen a policeman drinking on duty...
A pint at lunchtime used to be accepted in most professions...including doctors...it isn't now and I would be very surprised if any of the met team would drink on duty
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 08, 2014, 09:49:49 AM
There is a letter of complaint from Amaral's wife, stamped with an official PJ Stamp, stating that Amaral drove his daughter around when he was drunk. Unless you think she was lying of course.
So you believe Sofia when it suits?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 09:50:26 AM
I don't have any figures for policemen drinking whilst on duty..do you..have you ever seen a policeman drinking on duty...
A pint at lunchtime used to be accepted in most professions...including doctors...it isn't now and I would be very surprised if any of the met team would drink on duty
Are you really that naive ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 09:51:21 AM
Not at all..it isn't just the letter...there are lots of reports of amaral being a regular drinker.. no professional person should drink everyday...it would definitely have an effect on his abilities to do his job...The night he received the news about Maddie he was out drinking at midnight...would you like your surgeon to behave like this...arriving at work..tired...hungover and probably with alcohol still in his system
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 09:55:28 AM
I do believe her when I see a letter signed by her and officially stamped by The PJ. Unless you think she was lying. That would be Libel of course. But that seems to run in the family as well.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 10:12:31 AM
Do you have any evidence to the contrary..if not I think you should stop making untrue comments
8-)(--)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 08, 2014, 10:12:47 AM
So to sum up, Davel's fact about Amaral being sacked from the Maddie case for misconduct is unsubstantiated as is his claim that he drove his car with his daughter in it whilst drunk. Tut tut Davel.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 08, 2014, 10:13:58 AM
I do believe her when I see a letter signed by her and officially stamped by The PJ. Unless you think she was lying. That would be Libel of course. But that seems to run in the family as well.
Was Sofia there?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 10:15:21 AM
Who needs enemies when he's got friends like his wife?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
Was she where? I don't know. She wrote the letter. She went to The PJ for help. And not for the first time. So not all was sweetness and light in that marriage.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 10:24:15 AM
Was she where? I don't know. She wrote the letter. She went to The PJ for help. And not for the first time. So not all was sweetness and light in that marriage.
What has Amaral's marriage to Sofia got to do with this case ?
ANSWER.......................
F.A.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on February 08, 2014, 10:33:17 AM
I don't understand some peoples obsession with Dr Amaral.
Amaral is a major part of this case we are discussing - of course he will be commented upon.
Why is dissecting the McCanns every word and deed to the Nth degree 24/7 not seen as 'obsessional' but any mention of Amaral's words and deeds is? That makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 08, 2014, 11:00:09 AM
Amaral is a major part of this case we are discussing - of course he will be commented upon.
Why is dissecting the McCanns every word and deed to the Nth degree 24/7 not seen as 'obsessional' but any mention of Amaral's words and deeds is? That makes no sense to me.
There's an obvious answer to that, Benice.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 11:03:06 AM
Amaral is a major part of this case we are discussing - of course he will be commented upon.
Why is dissecting the McCanns every word and deed to the Nth degree 24/7 not seen as 'obsessional' but any mention of Amaral's words and deeds is? That makes no sense to me.
Especially since Amaral's life style and proclivities are so much more interesting than The McCann's.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 11:21:02 AM
I don't understand some peoples obsession with Dr Amaral.
I don't understand some peoples obsession with the McCanns...facebook hate group with 19000 members....and amarl has given them fuel with his shoddy detective work and his libellous book
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 11:24:36 AM
Every pantomime needs a Wicked Wizard. Exits in puff of green smoke.
You may regard the disappearance and potential death of a child...the hounding of her innocent parents on the internet...as a pantomime...says a lot about you
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 08, 2014, 11:27:59 AM
I don't understand some peoples obsession with the McCanns...facebook hate group with 19000 members....and amarl has given them fuel with his shoddy detective work and his libellous book
Yet to be proven I believe. Unless you have inside track with the judge. But of course you have.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 11:28:29 AM
I don't understand some peoples obsession with the McCanns...facebook hate group with 19000 members....and amarl has given them fuel with his shoddy detective work and his libellous book
Have we had the verdict already ? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 08, 2014, 11:33:00 AM
The 'indignation' of some people - who spend their time putting the MCanns' every word and deed under the microscope in order to find stuff to criticise them - whilst simultaneously objecting to any criticism of Amaral - no matter how justified - is a ludicrous stance to take IMO.
'One rule for one and a different rule for another' springs to mind.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 11:33:37 AM
You may regard the disappearance and potential death of a child...the hounding of her innocent parents on the internet...as a pantomime...says a lot about you
I will pass on that; too much like shooting ducks in a barrel. It requires no skill and is unsporting. Please try harder.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 08, 2014, 11:41:01 AM
The 'indignation' of some people - who spend their time putting the MCanns' every word and deed under the microscope in order to find stuff to criticise them - whilst simultaneously objecting to any criticism of Amaral - no matter how justified - is a ludicrous stance to take IMO.
'One rule for one and a different rule for another' springs to mind.
Just to clarify, I don't object to it. I just don't really understand how people seem to think that vilifying Dr Amaral has any bearing whatsoever on the Mccann case.
Say I said ' The Mccans shouldn't have left the kids alone' the response from some people is 'Amaral drunk drove with his daughter in the car'.
It's almost as though one persons terrible parenting negates an others.
Both were complexly wrong but also completely unconnected.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 11:44:03 AM
Just to clarify, I don't object to it. I just don't really understand how people seem to think that vilifying Dr Amaral has any bearing whatsoever on the Mccann case.
Say I said ' The Mccans shouldn't have left the kids alone' the response from some people is 'Amaral drunk drove with his daughter in the car'.
It's almost as though one persons terrible parenting negates an others.
Both were complexly wrong but also completely unconnected.
8@??)( 8((()*/
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 11:44:09 AM
Just to clarify, I don't object to it. I just don't really understand how people seem to think that vilifying Dr Amaral has any bearing whatsoever on the Mccann case.
Say I said ' The Mccans shouldn't have left the kids alone' the response from some people is 'Amaral drunk drove with his daughter in the car'.
It's almost as though one persons terrible parenting negates an others.
Both were complexly wrong but also completely unconnected.
Amaral is an integral part in why the McCanns are being attacked on the internet...people with a poor understanding of what constitutes eveidence are attacking the McCanns just because of ammarals lies
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 11:51:29 AM
Many just don't believe the McCann version of events - full stop. Nothing to do with Amaral.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 08, 2014, 12:01:42 PM
That's really only your interpretation. No bookseller wishes to risk litigation ( which is not the same thing), so steers clear for the moment.
You don't honestly think that Amaral's book will be published in Britain if he wins the libel trial, do you? For a start Amaral wouldn't risk it. Unless he is completely insane.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 12:05:40 PM
You don't honestly think that Amaral's book will be published in Britain if he wins the libel trial, do you? For a start Amaral wouldn't risk it. Unless he is completely insane.
The only way amarals book could be published in the uk would be if the mcccanns were tried and found guilty. Apart from that anyone who thinks that amarals book could be published in the uk is plain bonkers
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 12:18:49 PM
You don't honestly think that Amaral's book will be published in Britain if he wins the libel trial, do you? For a start Amaral wouldn't risk it. Unless he is completely insane.
No, though it might get published in English and be available via the internet. I don't really care one way or the other.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 08, 2014, 12:44:33 PM
You have to admit the man does have a story to tell (even more so after the legal battle). Plenty of people will want to read it.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 08, 2014, 01:48:03 PM
Both books are available free in English on the internet. In fact if you ask admin they will send you a copy privately.
In fact I'll let you into a little secret, there's another one on the way from Mr Amaral.
no they are not...there are unofficial translations on the internet which amaral has no responsibility for...I tgink its no secret that amaral is a broken man...he admitted as much in that last interview...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 03:16:30 PM
Its only libellous if it brings the subjects into disrepute. I believe the McCanns have managed to do that all on their lonesomes. 8(0(*
what you believe is irrelavent...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
the idea that a number of people don't believe the Mccanns story is because of Amarals 2008 book is totally bonkers....IMO on so many levels, which I have listed before and can't be bothered to repeat! People doubted them from very early on in 2007 and after for a variety of reasons! Amarals book was so very late in the day, negligible, and that's one of the weaknesses of their libel claims
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 08, 2014, 04:26:27 PM
the idea that a number of people don't believe the Mccanns story is because of Amarals 2008 book is totally bonkers....IMO on so many levels, which I have listed before and can't be bothered to repeat!
and just because you believe this doesn't make it true...it is ridiculous that someone who reads the book isn't influenced by it
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 08, 2014, 04:57:11 PM
Ps there were no "leaks" before or after at all, just hacking, in 2010, at least get your facts right
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on February 09, 2014, 12:53:17 PM
It was not until 21 July 2008 that the Portuguese authorities shelved their investigation and lifted the arguido status of the McCanns. Responding to the contents of the cable, a spokesman for the McCanns told the Guardian: "This is an entirely historic note that is more than three years old. [from the date of the article, December 2010] Subsequently, Kate and Gerry had their arguido status lifted, with the Portuguese authorities making it perfectly clear that there was absolutely no evidence to implicate them in Madeleine's disappearance whatsoever.
Quite, rumour based on unsubstantiated leaks before the files were released. And those unfounded leaks were repeated and reinforced in Amaral's book.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2014, 01:27:15 PM
Ps there were no "leaks" before or after at all, just hacking, in 2010, at least get your facts right
are all your theories based on second and third hand information...no wonder you are so way off the mark
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 09, 2014, 01:33:38 PM
Can we have a look at Amaral's Video? That would be a good one. We can all watch it and then have a glorified punch up about the spoken word. Personally I think his video did more damage than his book, and was a perfect example for why The McCanns had to do something.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 09, 2014, 01:39:50 PM
Can we have a look at Amaral's Video? That would be a good one. We can all watch it and then have a glorified punch up about the spoken word. Personally I think his video did more damage than his book, and was a perfect example for why The McCanns had to do something.
DAMAGE ?
What the bloody hell do you think the parents did in the first place with their 3 children ???
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 09, 2014, 01:41:00 PM
the mccanns are facing a trial by internet based on lies such as these
Check the timeline mate. When was the book published? When was the Mirror forum closed down? Check the dates.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 09, 2014, 04:16:41 PM
"In order to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body" GA
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 09, 2014, 04:50:40 PM
It is interesting that this episode of the show, in which great emphasis is placed on Mr Amaral's exposition of the idea that we must stick to facts, facts and only facts, begins with a slot on the Canadian psychics.
Presenter Julia mentions the 'findings' of the psychics again half way though, just before introducing footage of Mr Amaral outside the apartment with the other journalist talking about the different entrances.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 09, 2014, 04:52:21 PM
It was not until 21 July 2008 that the Portuguese authorities shelved their investigation and lifted the arguido status of the McCanns. Responding to the contents of the cable, a spokesman for the McCanns told the Guardian: "This is an entirely historic note that is more than three years old. [from the date of the article, December 2010] Subsequently, Kate and Gerry had their arguido status lifted, with the Portuguese authorities making it perfectly clear that there was absolutely no evidence to implicate them in Madeleine's disappearance whatsoever.
Quite, rumour based on unsubstantiated leaks before the files were released. And those unfounded leaks were repeated and reinforced in Amaral's book.
You really a a master at shifting goalposts and cherry picking to suit
You asked where the "canard" came from that the British "developed" the evidence against the Mccanns
I answered you
A) It wasn't a "canard"
B) It was from official documents "hacked and leaked" by Wikileaks in 2010
C) It had nothng to do with Amaral or his book or leaks from the PJ before or after vis a vis the British Ambassadors comments
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id353.htm
There you go
Hard work sometimes here !!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 09, 2014, 04:58:12 PM
id353.html Red 8)--))
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 09, 2014, 05:04:32 PM
It is interesting that this episode of the show, in which great emphasis is placed on Mr Amaral's exposition of the idea that we must stick to facts, facts and only facts, begins with a slot on the Canadian psychics.
Presenter Julia mentions the 'findings' of the psychics again half way though, just before introducing footage of Mr Amaral outside the apartment with the other journalist talking about the different entrances.
It's not Gonçalo Amaral's television show and it was not his decision to have a segment involving the psychics.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 09, 2014, 09:37:13 PM
IMO Mr Amarals team made some serious errors in the investigation. (One example is the GNR thumbprint accidently being used (IMO) to misdeduce that KM lied about the window). However IMO Mr Amaral is a man of integrity and I believe he will be shown to be so when the case is solved.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 10, 2014, 10:42:28 AM
IMO Mr Amarals team made some serious errors in the investigation. (One example is the GNR thumbprint accidently being used (IMO) to misdeduce that KM lied about the window). However IMO Mr Amaral is a man of integrity and I believe he will be shown to be so when the case is solved.
??
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 10, 2014, 10:56:50 AM
IMO Mr Amarals team made some serious errors in the investigation. (One example is the GNR thumbprint accidently being used (IMO) to misdeduce that KM lied about the window). However IMO Mr Amaral is a man of integrity and I believe he will be shown to be so when the case is solved.
How's a GNR print got anything to do with opening the window? Someone opened it before they arrived on the scene and Kate's fingerprints were found. Kate said she was conscious of not touching things but as soon as Dianne Webster arrives she asks her to check the shutters for her 8-)(--) Get someone else to tamper with the crime scene @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2014, 11:47:25 AM
"In order to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body" GA
In very exceptional circumstances, I'd agree that it may be possible to at least safely assume that someone died in the absence of a body.
However, in neither of the two missing children cases that he coordinated has his team proven that the child died, nor even been in a position to safely assume that this was the case.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2014, 12:03:33 PM
Why did Amaral assume that two Portuguese peasants were so clever that they were able to hide a body or any signs of one, for ever? Or did he think they were both too thick to defend themselves when they had the shite beaten out of them?
PS. The term "Peasant" in France is not derogatory necessarily. But The Ciprianos were hardly worldly wise.
Pity about The McCanns fighting back.
PPS. I have just realised that nothing I say will ever make a difference to those with closed minds. Why has it taken me so long?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 12:22:10 PM
Why did Amaral assume that two Portuguese peasants were so clever that they were able to hide a body or any signs of one, for ever? Or did he think they were both too thick to defend themselves when they had the shite beaten out of them?
PS. The term "Peasant" in France is not derogatory necessarily. But The Ciprianos were hardly worldly wise.
Pity about The McCanns fighting back.
PPS. I have just realised that nothing I say will ever make a difference to those with closed minds. Why has it taken me so long?
Why did Amaral assume..?
Because he was a policeman, and that was his job. But police do not take the decision to prosecute, and they do not convict people.
Your continual determination to single out just one man is why you will not ever convince anyone: your agenda has precisely zero subtlety.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 12:31:37 PM
Why did Amaral assume that two Portuguese peasants were so clever that they were able to hide a body or any signs of one, for ever? Or did he think they were both too thick to defend themselves when they had the shite beaten out of them?
PS. The term "Peasant" in France is not derogatory necessarily. But The Ciprianos were hardly worldly wise.
Pity about The McCanns fighting back.
PPS. I have just realised that nothing I say will ever make a difference to those with closed minds. Why has it taken me so long?
It's the same when people keep asking why did the police think Barry George shot Jill Dando? The police get the blame, but they didn't make the decision to prosecute. The current DPP was involved in George's prosecution and conviction, but few people blame her.
You and they keep blaming the police (just one policeman in your case) when it's the lawyers and judiciary who should be sharing the criticism (but that's clearly not so convenient for your agenda).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2014, 12:55:57 PM
It's the same when people keep asking why did the police think Barry George shot Jill Dando? The police get the blame, but they didn't make the decision to prosecute. The current DPP was involved in George's prosecution and conviction, but few people blame her.
You and they keep blaming the police (just one policeman in your case) when it's the lawyers and judiciary who should be sharing the criticism (but that's clearly not so convenient for your agenda).
Oh, so you think there should be critisism.
As it is I don't actually care what any of you think. It isn't going to result in a conviction, is it. But I am not just going to sit here and listen to the lies. Or would you rather I bogged off and left you to get on with whatever you think you are doing?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 01:05:54 PM
As it is I don't actually care what any of you think. It isn't going to result in a conviction, is it. But I am not just going to sit here and listen to the lies. Or would you rather I bogged off and left you to get on with whatever you think you are doing?
Nope, not me.
It's just discussion. 99.9% of the country doesn't get involved in it. It's not 'victimisation' or whatever word or words you might care to use to describe it. It's discussion and considering the papers still put the case on their front pages - seven years later - discussion is understandable and very valid.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
I mean discussion here. I don't agree with what people do elsewhere (much of which disgusts me as much as it does you).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2014, 01:16:48 PM
It's just discussion. 99.9% of the country doesn't get involved in it. It's not 'victimisation' or whatever word or words you might care to use to describe it. It's discussion and considering the papers still put the case on their front pages - seven years later - discussion is understandable and very valid.
It is the job of the police to provide enough evidence to bring a case forward for prosecution and without substantial or circumstantial evidence there would be no prosecution actions and a lawyer would be unnecessary..............So it falls on the police alone to make a case for a court hearing if the accused can not afford legal advice in advance of a court hearing Please correct me if you think if I am wrong
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 01:32:18 PM
Thank you. But even speculation goes too far sometimes.
That's the nature of the case (with so few facts known). If we were discussing a case in another country, one that didn't involve people you have an emotional attachment to, I don't think you'd be so concerned about the language occasionally used here.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2014, 01:39:42 PM
It's the same when people keep asking why did the police think Barry George shot Jill Dando? The police get the blame, but they didn't make the decision to prosecute. The current DPP was involved in George's prosecution and conviction, but few people blame her.
You and they keep blaming the police (just one policeman in your case) when it's the lawyers and judiciary who should be sharing the criticism (but that's clearly not so convenient for your agenda).
I happen to agree with you on the bit that I underlined... i.e., "it's the lawyers and judiciary who should be sharing the criticism".
In theory, a magistrate / investigating judge should have played an active role in directing the police work in the Joana case. However, possibly due to overload, did this actually happen in practice? In the Joana case, it seems to have been more of a rubber-stamping exercise, following a "confession" in dubious circumstances. Then, the obvious question back down to the police was... right, she's confessed, now find the body.
How much time did the lawyers actually spend on analysing this case? What means did they have for expert opinions to counter the assertions made by the PJ?
How easy would it have been for jury members (a relatively rare occurrence) to divorce themselves from all the tabloid "leaks" prior to the case? And who leaked them? How could they have objectively have assessed evidence in the absence of an effective defence? The recorded "reconstruction" presented on the last day of the 3-day trial, must have been quite shocking, but in line with the tabloid "leaks".
It didn't seem to occur to anyone to question the validity of the so-called forensic evidence, nor the conditions under which Leonor and others were interrogated, leading to the initial "confession", let alone how João eventually signed on the dotted line that the reconstruction was "voluntary".
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2014, 01:41:58 PM
That's the nature of the case (with so few facts known). If we were discussing a case in another country, one that didn't involve people you have an emotional attachment to, I don't think you'd be so concerned about the language occasionally used here.
I don't have an emotional attachment to The McCanns. And I haven't lived in Britain for a very long time.
Do you have an emotional attachment to Amaral?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 01:53:24 PM
I happen to agree with you on the bit that I underlined... i.e., "it's the lawyers and judiciary who should be sharing the criticism".
In theory, a magistrate / investigating judge should have played an active role in directing the police work in the Joana case. However, possibly due to overload, did this actually happen in practice? In the Joana case, it seems to have been more of a rubber-stamping exercise, following a "confession" in dubious circumstances. Then, the obvious question back down to the police was... right, she's confessed, now find the body.
How much time did the lawyers actually spend on analysing this case? What means did they have for expert opinions to counter the assertions made by the PJ?
How easy would it have been for jury members (a relatively rare occurrence) to divorce themselves from all the tabloid "leaks" prior to the case? And who leaked them? How could they have objectively have assessed evidence in the absence of an effective defence? The recorded "reconstruction" presented on the last day of the 3-day trial, must have been quite shocking, but in line with the tabloid "leaks".
It didn't seem to occur to anyone to question the validity of the so-called forensic evidence, nor the conditions under which Leonor and others were interrogated, leading to the initial "confession", let alone how João eventually signed on the dotted line that the reconstruction was "voluntary".
I don't know much about that case, Carana. I can't answer any of those questions, but the jury in the trial would have been one of judges not members of the public? Like in the recent Knox/Sollecito retrial?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 02:03:50 PM
It's not Gonçalo Amaral's television show and it was not his decision to have a segment involving the psychics.
That's right - it was a strange editorial decision that went against the grain of a lot of what Mr Amaral was trying to say. Probably nothing much to it - just an observation.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2014, 02:37:38 PM
Only if they want to write unsubstantiated accusations.
I would wait to hear what the judge says before you make that assertion.
There's clearly a difference between the book and the film (and TV appearances, but the ones I've seen are similar to Nancy Grace type shows. That kind of show is unknown in the UK but they're not in other parts of the world). The film is more of an issue than the book I'd say.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2014, 02:58:29 PM
I would wait to hear what the judge says before you make that assertion.
There's clearly a difference between the book and the film (and TV appearances, but the ones I've seen are similar to Nancy Grace type shows. That kind of show is unknown in the UK but they're not in other parts of the world). The film is more of an issue than the book I'd say.
I will agree with that, but the book is still an issue.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 03:30:24 PM
I will agree with that, but the book is still an issue.
Not if the judge says it isn't. But that's only in Portuguese law, I don't think it makes any difference here in the UK whatever happens in Lisbon >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 10, 2014, 05:25:25 PM
On the last day of the trial the voice of João Cipriano was heard in court by virtue of a video recording made by the Judicial Police during investigations. In brutal detail he confessed to killing Joana and of disposing of her body. The defence objected claiming that João's words had no value since the defendants chose not to testify at trial. The judge overruled the objection.
So they both confessed to the same thing. Don't you think that is just a tad coincidental especially since they had no way of contacting each other to concoct a story?
perhaps it was the pj who supplied the story..we don't know under what circumstances the confession was made...there was no real evidence aginst either of them...it was claimed she was killed and dismembered in the house yet NONE of the blood found matched Joanna...the whole conviction looks ridiculously unsafe...not only to me but also others..portuguese ...who saw all the evidence
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2014, 07:34:44 PM
I don't know much about that case, Carana. I can't answer any of those questions, but the jury in the trial would have been one of judges not members of the public? Like in the recent Knox/Sollecito retrial?
Sorry, Lyall. I do try to keep the two cases separate, but there are overlapping issues.
In the Joana case, there was a jury as well as judges.
From John's summary: A total of 45 witnesses, mostly relatives and villagers, testified in court over a trial period of just three days. Four jurors (one man and three women) and three judges decided the verdict. The opinions of the jurors – a 20-year-old student, a physiotherapist, a library employee and a waitress – carried the same weight as that of the judges. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.0
The overlapping issues concern the questions in my previous post... if the McCann case had gone to trial. A jury isn't a frequent occurrence in PT trials (only for potential long-term sentences, apparently and even then I'd have to double-check whether it's optional or not).
How likely is it that the jury members would not have been aware of the "leaks" to the press prior to a trial, and how likely is it that they would have had any basis on which to critique "expert" testimony (mainly the PJ officers involved in the case)?
Both families seem to have been caught up in a whirlwind. The McCanns had the intelligence and potential means to have countered the prosecution, and were foreigners with an international media spotlight from slippery stair incidents... but the Cipriano family don't seem to have benefited from a truly fair trial.
According to some Portuguese views, they find it unfair that foreigners get treated better than the Portuguese, and that seems to be a source of resentment... and I can understand that. But the real question, IMO, is why Portuguese people can end up behind bars without a fair trial in the first place. The case of the little boy in Madeira was going that way... except - by some miracle, he was found alive - after the tabloid press had previously stated that the PJ were closing in on the parents/family. I don't know what happened in that case, but if the levadeiros hadn't found him alive, the parents / family and friends could well have found themselves charged with an appalling crime.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Lyall on February 10, 2014, 10:09:43 PM
Sorry, Lyall. I do try to keep the two cases separate, but there are overlapping issues.
In the Joana case, there was a jury as well as judges.
From John's summary: A total of 45 witnesses, mostly relatives and villagers, testified in court over a trial period of just three days. Four jurors (one man and three women) and three judges decided the verdict. The opinions of the jurors – a 20-year-old student, a physiotherapist, a library employee and a waitress – carried the same weight as that of the judges. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.0
The overlapping issues concern the questions in my previous post... if the McCann case had gone to trial. A jury isn't a frequent occurrence in PT trials (only for potential long-term sentences, apparently and even then I'd have to double-check whether it's optional or not).
How likely is it that the jury members would not have been aware of the "leaks" to the press prior to a trial, and how likely is it that they would have had any basis on which to critique "expert" testimony (mainly the PJ officers involved in the case)?
Both families seem to have been caught up in a whirlwind. The McCanns had the intelligence and potential means to have countered the prosecution, and were foreigners with an international media spotlight from slippery stair incidents... but the Cipriano family don't seem to have benefited from a truly fair trial.
According to some Portuguese views, they find it unfair that foreigners get treated better than the Portuguese, and that seems to be a source of resentment... and I can understand that. But the real question, IMO, is why Portuguese people can end up behind bars without a fair trial in the first place. The case of the little boy in Madeira was going that way... except - by some miracle, he was found alive - after the tabloid press had previously stated that the PJ were closing in on the parents/family. I don't know what happened in that case, but if the levadeiros hadn't found him alive, the parents / family and friends could well have found themselves charged with an appalling crime.
It was a missing child case, Carana, every policeman's nightmare. They are under so much pressure every time a child disappears, it's difficult for us to appreciate.
I understand your concern about the conviction though.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 10, 2014, 10:34:37 PM
It was a missing child case, Carana, every policeman's nightmare. They are under so much pressure every time a child disappears, it's difficult for us to appreciate.
I understand your concern about the conviction though.
Well said.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on February 10, 2014, 10:57:03 PM
I happen to agree with you on the bit that I underlined... i.e., "it's the lawyers and judiciary who should be sharing the criticism".
In theory, a magistrate / investigating judge should have played an active role in directing the police work in the Joana case. However, possibly due to overload, did this actually happen in practice? In the Joana case, it seems to have been more of a rubber-stamping exercise, following a "confession" in dubious circumstances. Then, the obvious question back down to the police was... right, she's confessed, now find the body.
How much time did the lawyers actually spend on analysing this case? What means did they have for expert opinions to counter the assertions made by the PJ?
How easy would it have been for jury members (a relatively rare occurrence) to divorce themselves from all the tabloid "leaks" prior to the case? And who leaked them? How could they have objectively have assessed evidence in the absence of an effective defence? The recorded "reconstruction" presented on the last day of the 3-day trial, must have been quite shocking, but in line with the tabloid "leaks".
It didn't seem to occur to anyone to question the validity of the so-called forensic evidence, nor the conditions under which Leonor and others were interrogated, leading to the initial "confession", let alone how João eventually signed on the dotted line that the reconstruction was "voluntary".
I'm afraid you are going too far on your appreciation about criminal cases in a country whose laws or justice system you do not know and, especially, about a case you totally have no information about.
Everything you say is totally ... moderated .... and it clearly displays a motivation behind it that has nothing to do with case itself but with attacking the PJ.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 10, 2014, 11:00:32 PM
I'm afraid you are going too far on your appreciation about criminal cases in a country whose laws or justice system you do not know, and especially, about a case you totally have no information about.
Everything you say is totally ... moderated .... and it clearly displays a clear motivation behind it that has nothing to do with case itself but with attacking the PJ.
And Amaral and defending the mccanns as well as the tried and convicted murderers....not rocket science that it is not an interest in the potential miscarriage of justice of a single case! It's trying to link two cases, on off which had no arrest charges trial or conviction so nothing whatsoever to do with a potential miscarriage of justice
Jmo
>@@(*&)
And well said
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on February 10, 2014, 11:04:23 PM
And, by the way, jury trials only happen in Portugal if the defendant requests it or agrees to it. As some mentioned they are very rare.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: sadie on February 10, 2014, 11:07:56 PM
I'm afraid you are going too far on your appreciation about criminal cases in a country whose laws or justice system you do not know and, especially, about a case you totally have no information about.
Everything you say is totally ... moderated ... and it clearly displays a motivation behind it that has nothing to do with case itself but with attacking the PJ.
Wrong again Luz
Carana is a deep thinker and analyst.
The fact that you refuse to admit the appalling flaws in the PJ case says more about you than you realise. But then we all know about you and your sense of Justice already, dont we?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on February 10, 2014, 11:14:26 PM
IMO Mr Amarals team made some serious errors in the investigation. (One example is the GNR thumbprint accidently being used (IMO) to misdeduce that KM lied about the window). However IMO Mr Amaral is a man of integrity and I believe he will be shown to be so when the case is solved.
Wawwwwwwwwww!!!!!
That's a TERRIBLE ERROR. Even because in a crime scene it never happens that the people that investigate have to be excluded from the forensics retrieved. That's why they never contrast finger prints and swabs of the professional to the material collected.
But Kate McCann's fingerprints were on the window frame while the GNR's was on the sill.
But FSS scrambling the DNA from the samples with their technicians was perfectly acceptable, even because it was the better explanation to provide inconclusive results.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on February 10, 2014, 11:22:29 PM
The fact that you refuse to admit the appalling flaws in the PJ case says more about you than you realise. But then we all know about you and your sense of Justice already, dont we?
I don't know Carana and I am not going to discuss her/his skills. I said and reinforce, Carana is totally ignorant about the functioning of the Portuguese Legal System and doesn't know anything about the Cipriano case apart from what can be read in the net. Commenting on Cipriano is a way to attack Amaral and not a honest attempt to understand a case that in Portugal was resolved (not well, because people expected the murderers to have been convicted to 25 years) within what our law previews.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 10, 2014, 11:32:09 PM
I don't know Carana and I am not going to discuss her/his skills. I said and reinforce, Carana is totally ignorant about the functioning of the Portuguese Legal System and doesn't know anything about the Cipriano case apart from what can be read in the net. Commenting on Cipriano is a way to attack Amaral and not a honest attempt to understand a case that in Portugal was resolved (not well, because people expected the murderers to have been convicted to 25 years) within what our law previews.
8@??)(
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 10, 2014, 11:41:35 PM
I don't know Carana and I am not going to discuss her/his skills. I said and reinforce, Carana is totally ignorant about the functioning of the Portuguese Legal System and doesn't know anything about the Cipriano case apart from what can be read in the net. Commenting on Cipriano is a way to attack Amaral and not a honest attempt to understand a case that in Portugal was resolved (not well, because people expected the murderers to have been convicted to 25 years) within what our law previews.
8((()*/
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2014, 07:52:54 AM
That's a TERRIBLE ERROR. Even because in a crime scene it never happens that the people that investigate have to be excluded from the forensics retrieved. That's why they never contrast finger prints and swabs of the professional to the material collected.
But Kate McCann's fingerprints were on the window frame while the GNR's was on the sill.
But FSS scrambling the DNA from the samples with their technicians was perfectly acceptable, even because it was the better explanation to provide inconclusive results.
that never happened...a forum myth
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 11, 2014, 05:56:05 PM
I don't know Carana and I am not going to discuss her/his skills. I said and reinforce, Carana is totally ignorant about the functioning of the Portuguese Legal System and doesn't know anything about the Cipriano case apart from what can be read in the net. Commenting on Cipriano is a way to attack Amaral and not a honest attempt to understand a case that in Portugal was resolved (not well, because people expected the murderers to have been convicted to 25 years) within what our law previews.
from what Luz has posted re the amamral case it is Luz who is ignorant of whats happened in Portugal...claiming over and over again that amarals conviction has been overturned when it hasn't shows we should not take much notice of her posts
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 11, 2014, 06:00:46 PM
from what Luz has posted re the amamral case it is Luz who is ignorant of whats happened in Portugal...claiming over and over again that amarals conviction has been overturned when it hasn't shows we should not take much notice of her posts
Portuguese Law isn't the problem It's the corruption that is the worry.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 12, 2014, 08:52:43 AM
from what Luz has posted re the amamral case it is Luz who is ignorant of whats happened in Portugal...claiming over and over again that amarals conviction has been overturned when it hasn't shows we should not take much notice of her posts
Back in October, she stated that jury trials didn't exist in Portugal. They may be rare, but they most certainly do exist. The provision is even enshrined in the Constitution (Article 207). http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg105424#msg105424
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 12, 2014, 08:58:27 AM
So what is it with all this false information from Portuguese Posters? How are we supposed to know what goes on if they don't?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 09:50:59 AM
almost every night you engage in long off topic discussions which are removed...I've made my point....this thread is about amaral not statistics...end of
You don't seem to realize that the reason most posts are removed is because of your abusive comments which are result of you losing the argument.
As to Amaral, I await with interest the outcome of the trial.
It has been clear for several years that certain parties, namely the mccanns themselves and their devoted followers have pursued him, emotionally, personally, and of course the mccanns have financially.
All because he tried to do his job.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 12, 2014, 06:06:50 PM
You don't seem to realize that the reason most posts are removed is because of your abusive comments which are result of you losing the argument.
As to Amaral, I await with interest the outcome of the trial.
It has been clear for several years that certain parties, namely the mccanns themselves and their devoted followers have pursued him, emotionally, personally, and of course the mccanns have financially.
All because he tried to do his job.
whatever
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 12, 2014, 06:10:37 PM
You don't seem to realize that the reason most posts are removed is because of your abusive comments which are result of you losing the argument.
As to Amaral, I await with interest the outcome of the trial.
It has been clear for several years that certain parties, namely the mccanns themselves and their devoted followers have pursued him, emotionally, personally, and of course the mccanns have financially.
All because he tried to do his job.
Tried being the operative word. He was Tried in Court, at least twice, and now he's being Tried again.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 06:12:23 PM
The bottom line in this topic is very obvious and has been stated by many other people as well.
Amaral was a bit player who was coordinator of the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance for a short period.
He was removed from the investigation after criticizing UK police involvement, which was therefore clearly a political decision.
He then had the temerity to produce a book in which the theories were already in the public arena.
Meanwhile the mccanns in their pursuit of revenge and money, thought him to be an easy target.
Agreed! which is why I have never understood why on this forum he is de Boogah Man. I always inclined to the view that his going to court over alleged libelous statements was not in the script.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 07:06:50 PM
Agreed! which is why I have never understood why on this forum he is de Boogah Man. I always inclined to the view that his going to court over alleged libelous statements was not in the script.
Like I said, the mccanns and probably his advisers, including Carter-Ruck saw the dollar signs.
As to the mccanns and especially km, she was prepared to 'forgive an abductor'.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 12, 2014, 07:16:09 PM
Agreed! which is why I have never understood why on this forum he is de Boogah Man. I always inclined to the view that his going to court over alleged libelous statements was not in the script.
I suppose it is that certain people need an outlet for their 'fury'
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 12, 2014, 07:33:51 PM
remember a quiz where the clue to the missing phrase was "ex campanologist"
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 12, 2014, 07:35:27 PM
Back on track..you have the view that the mccanns are money grabbing...others have the view that they had no choice but to go to court to defend their reputation
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 07:42:37 PM
What reputation ?
After leaving their children defenseless to wine and dine, night after night.
Now referred to in the urban dictionary 'as doing a mccann'.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 12, 2014, 07:43:04 PM
Amaral was never going to stop. He was raking it in and thoroughly enjoying what he was doing to that family.
His book may well be back on sale but I bet it isn't selling.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 07:48:02 PM
I know but it's more because of the passage of time isn't it? Much of what was claimed in the rhetoric in the trial was also caused by the passage of time to some extent, and not by the book (or GA's TV appearances).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 12, 2014, 08:12:59 PM
I'm not bothered as long as Amaral isn't making money out of it.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 08:18:53 PM
After leaving their children defenseless to wine and dine, night after night.
Now referred to in the urban dictionary 'as doing a mccann'.
First...he accused them of much more...and goaded them to sue him...I bet he regrets that now
Second...so doing a McCann is going out and leaving your children.......so its not letting your children have an accident and covering it up...thank god for that
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 08:25:13 PM
First...he accused them of much more...and goaded them to sue him...I bet he regrets that now
Second...so doing a McCann is going out and leaving your children.......so its not letting your children have an accident and covering it up...thank god for that
Let's wait for the outcome of the trial.
As to the accident, that remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 12, 2014, 08:25:38 PM
I suppose it is that certain people need an outlet for their 'fury'
I am sure that is probable but I fail to understand the reasons for the polarity and fury and the puerile proposition that all Portuguese coppers are bent and incompetent based on limited information about one man. I don't know Drs McCann or Dr Amaral from the Cat in the Hat as I suppose most members of this forum don't. Meanwhile the fate of a little girl remains unknown with only the guilty parties knowing what happened. That is probably something worth being annoyed about. The thread refers to Dr Amaral's book. Kate McCann also wrote a book. As an individual I find it hard to accept that either book was written for reasons of altruism or for a higher moral purpose.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 08:27:15 PM
I am sure that is probable but I fail to understand the reasons for the polarity and fury and the puerile proposition that all Portuguese coppers are bent and incompetent based on limited information about one man. I don't know Drs McCann or Dr Amaral from the Cat in the Hat as I suppose most members of this forum don't. Meanwhile the fate of a little girl remains unknown with only the guilty parties knowing what happened. That is probably something worth being annoyed about. The thread refers to Dr Amaral's book. Kate McCann also wrote a book. As an individual I find it hard to accept that either book was written for reasons of altruism or for a higher moral purpose.
Precisely.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 12, 2014, 08:31:00 PM
I am sure that is probable but I fail to understand the reasons for the polarity and fury and the puerile proposition that all Portuguese coppers are bent and incompetent based on limited information about one man. I don't know Drs McCann or Dr Amaral from the Cat in the Hat as I suppose most members of this forum don't. Meanwhile the fate of a little girl remains unknown with only the guilty parties knowing what happened. That is probably something worth being annoyed about. The thread refers to Dr Amaral's book. Kate McCann also wrote a book. As an individual I find it hard to accept that either book was written for reasons of altruism or for a higher moral purpose.
I don't think all Portuguese coppers are bent and I don't base my opinions on one man. A portuguese friend described the GNR as the Drunk Police...perhaps a Portuguese poster would like to comment...there have been other cases where Portuguese justice looks unfair involving british poeple
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 12, 2014, 08:34:25 PM
If Amaral had done a half decent job they wouldn't have needed to.
Silly argument actually. And one that generates scorn for the people you say you're supporting.
It's an argument that seeks to portray the parents as victims as much as the other children (and that's precisely what always angered people and made them suspicious).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 12, 2014, 08:42:54 PM
have you actually looked at any of the cases on here...I have
Does anyone have a similar list for Portugal... Montclair said in 30 years he had never known a successful appeal so the answers probably no... if cipriano was English she would certainly be on this website
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on February 12, 2014, 10:26:18 PM
I don't think all Portuguese coppers are bent and I don't base my opinions on one man. A portuguese friend described the GNR as the Drunk Police...perhaps a Portuguese poster would like to comment...there have been other cases where Portuguese justice looks unfair involving british poeple
Yeah that's about as reliable as me and some friends who should have known better referring to the SPG as the Special Pig Gang. UK police managed to shoot an innocent man. Unless there is an overriding trend for dodgy behaviour then gross assumptions founded on a few isolated events are plain foolish.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Montclair on February 13, 2014, 09:26:52 AM
have you actually looked at any of the cases on here...I have
Does anyone have a similar list for Portugal... Montclair said in 30 years he had never known a successful appeal so the answers probably no... if cipriano was English she would certainly be on this website
You really love to twist people's words don't you. Even when you have been corrected you continue to spout the same misinterpretations. Of course, there have been many appeals considered and many accepted but gross miscarriages of justice such as Barry George, Birmingham Six and Guilford Four, etc. Many times sentences have been reduced or new trials ordered. I don't know of any cases where evidence has been faked by the police. The advantage of an investigation being run by the judges in the Ministério Público is that there are so many checks and balances, that it is virtually impossible for the police to fake anything in the way of evidence.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 13, 2014, 09:54:34 AM
You really love to twist people's words don't you. Even when you have been corrected you continue to spout the same misinterpretations. Of course, there have been many appeals considered and many accepted but gross miscarriages of justice such as Barry George, Birmingham Six and Guilford Four, etc. Many times sentences have been reduced or new trials ordered. I don't know of any cases where evidence has been faked by the police. The advantage of an investigation being run by the judges in the Ministério Público is that there are so many checks and balances, that it is virtually impossible for the police to fake anything in the way of evidence.
This is your post....".I have been in Portugal for almost 37 years and I don't remember any cases of anyone unjustly convicted and jailed and then freed. But somebody else may know more than I do. Of course, they all say they are innocent, don't they? The problem in Portugal, is that there are so many safeguards for suspects that someone is more likely to get away with committing a crime than getting unjustly convicted."
I think you owe me an apology for saying I have twisted your words
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 13, 2014, 10:04:07 AM
Yeah that's about as reliable as me and some friends who should have known better referring to the SPG as the Special Pig Gang. UK police managed to shoot an innocent man. Unless there is an overriding trend for dodgy behaviour then gross assumptions founded on a few isolated events are plain foolish.
Talking of foolish I think you need to read and understand my post. I have made NO assumptions...I have just stated FACTS
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 13, 2014, 10:49:31 AM
You really love to twist people's words don't you. Even when you have been corrected you continue to spout the same misinterpretations. Of course, there have been many appeals considered and many accepted but gross miscarriages of justice such as Barry George, Birmingham Six and Guilford Four, etc. Many times sentences have been reduced or new trials ordered. I don't know of any cases where evidence has been faked by the police. The advantage of an investigation being run by the judges in the Ministério Público is that there are so many checks and balances, that it is virtually impossible for the police to fake anything in the way of evidence.
I understand that to mean there are no gross miscarriages of justice in PT involving police bad practice or corruption getting convicted an innocent person because of the checks and balances kept in place by the Public Ministry of Justice, that's a very good thing.
Some people's appeals are heard and sentences sometimes reduced. That's fair and good too. So no examples of unjustly convicted, appealed and set free then.
Not a bad record at all!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 13, 2014, 10:58:56 AM
So what's with all the beatings going on in Police Stations? Passing a few dull hours were they? Any statistics on that? Apart from Amnesty International, that is.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 13, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
I understand that to mean there are no gross miscarriages of justice in PT involving police bad practice or corruption getting convicted an innocent person because of the checks and balances kept in place by the Public Ministry of Justice, that's a very good thing.
Some people's appeals are heard and sentences sometimes reduced. That's fair and good too. So no examples of unjustly convicted, appealed and set free then.
Not a bad record at all!
Yes absolutely no miscarriage of justice in Portugal that has resulted in a prisoner being released.. So no innocent people are ever convicted in portrugal because the system is so perfect...I cant believe any sensible person would believe that...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 13, 2014, 11:50:00 AM
Yes absolutely no miscarriage of justice in Portugal that has resulted in a prisoner being released.. So no innocent people are ever convicted in portrugal because the system is so perfect...I cant believe any sensible person would believe that...
Every justice system makes mistakes...what this post by Montclair shows is that Portugal is truly corrupt and does not accept its mistakes...not opinion...fact
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 13, 2014, 11:55:41 AM
Yes absolutely no miscarriage of justice in Portugal that has resulted in a prisoner being released.. So no innocent people are ever convicted in portrugal because the system is so perfect...I cant believe any sensible person would believe that...
There's always Amaral. He's been wrongfully convicted a couple of times.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 13, 2014, 12:02:31 PM
I don't think any justice system is perfect. The answer is not to run foul of the law, wherever you are.
You don't have to do anything illegal to be arrested..charged and imprisoned..its called a miscarriage of justice...it just seem that according to Montclair ...it doesn't happen in portugal
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 13, 2014, 12:31:20 PM
You don't have to do anything illegal to be arrested..charged and imprisoned..its called a miscarriage of justice...it just seem that according to Montclair ...it doesn't happen in portugal
Except if it is PJ Officers, ex or otherwise. Or have we already done that one?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 13, 2014, 12:31:45 PM
You don't have to do anything illegal to be arrested..charged and imprisoned..its called a miscarriage of justice...it just seem that according to Montclair ...it doesn't happen in portugal
Indeed you don't, particularly in the UK.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 13, 2014, 07:19:22 PM
I'm happy to accept that there are miscarriages of justice in the Uk but according to Montclair there are NONE in Portugal...that makes me think Portugal is a very corrupt country
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 13, 2014, 10:15:46 PM
I'm happy to accept that there are miscarriages of justice in the Uk but according to Montclair there are NONE in Portugal...that makes me think Portugal is a very corrupt country
Now that is a stupid argument.... 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 14, 2014, 07:49:51 AM
that's a very poor reply..you need to do better...now to believe a justice system never makes mistakes...that IS stupid...as red by her post does...if Portugal admits to NO miscarriages of justice then something is plainly wrong
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 14, 2014, 08:02:05 AM
that's a very poor reply..you need to do better...now to believe a justice system never makes mistakes...that IS stupid...as red by her post does...if Portugal admits to NO miscarriages of justice then something is plainly wrong
You said to paraphrase...
UK has miscarriages of justice. Montclair says Portugal has no miscarriages of justice. Therefore Portugal is a very corrupt country.
Neither of the first two statements cause or lead to the third statement hence it is a nonsensical argument.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 14, 2014, 08:15:53 AM
UK has miscarriages of justice. Montclair says Portugal has no miscarriages of justice. Therefore Portugal is a very corrupt country.
Neither of the first two statements cause or lead to the third statement hence it is a nonsensical argument.
It would make sense to anyone who doesn't blindly support Portuguese justice...it is noticeable that Montclair has not posted since making the statement
what do you think of the fact that Portugal admits to no miscarriages...you are avoiding the important question
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: sadie on February 14, 2014, 08:43:31 AM
I'm happy to accept that there are miscarriages of justice in the Uk but according to Montclair there are NONE in Portugal...that makes me think Portugal is a very corrupt country
Exactly. It is downright unhealthy. It shows a complete dominence by the so called Justice system
Just like in a marriage where there are never any arguments. Either both parties do not think for themselves ... or one party is totally dominant and the other totally submissive. Unhealthy !
This situation confirms that Portugal is still a Police State despite calling itself a democracy.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 14, 2014, 08:44:54 AM
Exactly. It is downright unhealthy. It shows a complete dominence by the so called Justice system
Just like in a marriage where there are never any arguments. Either both parties do not think for themselves ... or one party is totally dominant and the other totally submissive. Unhealthy !
This situation confirms that Portugal is still a Police State despite calling itself a democracy.
Why not go to Portugal and make your allegations there ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: carlymichelle on February 14, 2014, 08:52:51 AM
Exactly. It is downright unhealthy. It shows a complete dominence by the so called Justice system
Just like in a marriage where there are never any arguments. Either both parties do not think for themselves ... or one party is totally dominant and the other totally submissive. Unhealthy !
This situation confirms that Portugal is still a Police State despite calling itself a democracy.
but sadie if we think for ourselves and dont believe the mcanns then we get abused for it??? is that right??
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 14, 2014, 09:07:38 AM
I came here originally quite happy to discuss things rationally. I did not start the abuse. I am merely a retaliator. I should have known, of course.
Me too.
In my innocence, I actually thought that get the anti views on the situation out in PdL, along with the pro views, and we could have solved the case at the PdL end of things ... with a little bit of luck.
But from almost the moment I started posting, the abuse started flying at me.
I now retaliate to some of the silly comments. I let others stand cos it shows up the poster for what he/she is. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 15, 2014, 01:34:02 AM
Just a reminder that the original investigation was effectively a joint PJ/UK effort.
The recommendation to bring E and K to the flat was by a UK expert.
The analysis, which observed the possibility that any one of 5 named people might possibly have gone off during the very early search then later rejoined the search, was written by a UK expert.
Those who criticise Mr Amaral's book are equally criticising the UK experts who did much of the work.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 15, 2014, 02:35:37 AM
Just a reminder that the original investigation was effectively a joint PJ/UK effort.
The recommendation to bring E and K to the flat was by a UK expert.
The analysis, which observed the possibility that any one of 5 named people might possibly have gone off during the very early search then later rejoined the search, was written by a UK expert.
Those who criticise Mr Amaral's book are equally criticising the UK experts who did much of the work.
UK experts had nothing to do with the writing of Amarals book - which is full of half-truths, spiteful innuendo and downright lies.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 15, 2014, 03:56:18 PM
The guy was educating and helping others, not making money, get over it, pathetic
Data protection my ar se
I am not saying this guy was doing bad..
I am curious how the PT government has allowed a professional like GA who was employed by his country to pocket i.e make money out of an experience at work.. To me, this is very very very strange! To me this is seen as unprofessional.. it is simply a 'no-no' ground in any country!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 15, 2014, 09:21:33 PM
I am curious how the PT government has allowed a professional like GA who was employed by his country to pocket i.e make money out of an experience at work.. To me, this is very very very strange! To me this is seen as unprofessional.. it is simply a 'no-no' ground in any country!
It's obviously not illegal to write books
Some in past history have had them burned though and others in more modern history have tried to get them banned
not alot of difference here
>@@(*&)
cross your fingers though, the mccanns might get this awful money for themselves if they win he libel trial, shudder at the philosophical thought of it all
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: VIXTE on February 15, 2014, 09:25:31 PM
Some in past history have had them burned though and others in more modern history have tried to get them banned
not alot of difference here
>@@(*&)
It is obviously illegal in the UK to use the data acquired in your professional field to make yourself rich.. Not to mention how morally wrong that is..
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 15, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
It is obviously illegal in the UK to use the data acquired in your professional field to make yourself rich.. Not to mention how morally wrong that is..
did the man you brought up when starting this conversation make himself rich? If not, why post it? If that was the point you were trying to make! Ie making money
Aso pls link to the law which states, well, whatever it is you are trying to state
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: VIXTE on February 15, 2014, 09:38:27 PM
did the man you brought up when starting this conversation make himself rich? If not, why post it? If that was the point you were trying to make! Ie making money
Aso pls link to the law which states, well, whatever it is you are trying to state
You are twisting the facts as usual. The fact is that a debt ridden GA has used the data he acquired at his government held job for a personal money gain. This is in any modern world place seen as an example of corruption.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 15, 2014, 09:44:10 PM
You are twisting the facts as usual. The fact is that a debt ridden GA has used the data he acquired at his government held job for a personal money gain. This is in any modern world place seen as an example of corruption.
Oh! Why don't you go back and reread from your initial post I twisted nothng at all You're the one who brought in a nonsensical story just to attack Amaral now it seems, not even tried hard to veil it lol from the off
All that time and energy when you could have just said I think x y z
Got that link yet? Must do better
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 15, 2014, 09:49:29 PM
You are twisting the facts as usual. The fact is that a debt ridden GA has used the data he acquired at his government held job for a personal money gain. This is in any modern world place seen as an example of corruption.
Why is this important to you?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 15, 2014, 09:58:13 PM
Keep up jassi, it makes him a bad immoral person, ergo....um...not sure what the logic is further...
Madeleine WAS abducted? But Madeleines abduction was covered up by him? he took back handers some claim, for what??? He was involved? Oh yes, some say too He planned from the start to scupper the investigation and planned on writing a book Lets not forget he got his colleagues to go to a mortuary and wipe cadaver scent off bodies on their hankies and go back and sprinkle it all over the Mccanns flat
>@@(*&)
The lot of them need sending to Coventry for psychiatric problems
it's thoroughly disgusting this policeman has been crucified by the British press, the Mccanns and their pr machinery and acolytes not forgetting the awful m3 and their agenda in this case just for standing up for himself, well, karma is all I can think of and it really can't come soon enough
Eta and If there's any truth n Gordon brown ringing to ask if he has been sacked yet, well, karma struck there mr brown didn't it.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: VIXTE on February 15, 2014, 10:23:45 PM
Apart from his book being an unproven thesis.. it is the core that he did it for the making money scheme. He used Madeleine's name for a personal gain.
IMO that is a morally filthy gesture.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 15, 2014, 10:27:11 PM
Apart from his book being an unproven thesis.. it is the core that he did it for the making money scheme. He used Madeleine's name for a personal gain.
IMO that is a morally filthy gesture.
Well you will have to "prove" your thesis it was done for money wont you?
Or is it just an "opinion"
maybe a morally filthy one too hey? next time you are attacked by the powers that be don't tell me you wouldn't stand up for yourself unless you condone bullying and ruining people's reputations and lives
>@@(*&)
IMO Mr Amaral was very courageous then and up to now.....who wants to give in to bullies? Be silenced, gagged etc, the nazis stalin and the like were destroyed in the last century please don't help bring them back
bit disgusted and scared actually at atoning of these practices so logging off
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: VIXTE on February 15, 2014, 10:44:20 PM
Well you will have to "prove" your thesis it was done for money wont you?
Or is it just an "opinion"
maybe a morally filthy one too hey? next time you are attacked by the powers that be don't tell me you wouldn't stand up for yourself unless you condone bullying and ruining people's reputations and lives
>@@(*&)
IMO Mr Amaral was very courageous then and up to now.....who wants to give in to bullies? Be silenced, gagged etc, the nazis stalin and the like were destroyed in the last century please don't help bring them back
bit disgusted and scared actually at atoning of these practices so logging off
What is is done for then? For the world peace? @)(++(* Earnings donated to a charity? Or maybe for an internet character building, designed to earn admiration of the hormonal women? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 16, 2014, 12:08:53 AM
UK experts had nothing to do with the writing of Amarals book - which is full of half-truths, spiteful innuendo and downright lies.
Mr Amaral states in his book (chapter 16) that Mark Harrison recommended deploying a cadaver dog in 5A. It's not a half truth or innuendo or lie, it is a fact which is easily verified Without that recommendation by that UK expert, Mr Amaral's book would not exist.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 16, 2014, 09:01:10 AM
Mr Amaral states in his book (chapter 16) that Mark Harrison recommended deploying a cadaver dog in 5A. It's not a half truth or innuendo or lie, it is a fact which is easily verified Without that recommendation by that UK expert, Mr Amaral's book would not exist.
There would have been no book either - if Amara had understood/accepted the FSS reports relating to the dogs' alerts. imo
His description of how the dogs work is completely wrong too. He conveniently forgets to mention that Eddie alerted to blood as well as cadaverscent and that is the true reason why he was always sent in first - or that both dogs alerted to blood from living people. It's clear from his book that he wants the reader to believe Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent - and that any alerts at all from either dog could only mean one thing i.e. a dead body. That is not true. This was clearly shown when the material alerted to by both dogs on the key fob was identified as Gerry's blood. GM is alive and kicking.
Grossly misleading quote from his book:-
Quote Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred. Unquote
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2014, 09:11:51 AM
There would have been no book either - if Amara had understood/accepted the FSS reports relating to the dogs' alerts. imo
His description of how the dogs work is completely wrong too. He conveniently forgets to mention that Eddie alerted to blood as well as cadaverscent and that is the true reason why he was always sent in first - or that both dogs alerted to blood from living people. It's clear from his book that he wants the reader to believe Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent - and that any alerts at all from either dog could only mean one thing i.e. a dead body. That is not true. This was clearly shown when the material alerted to by both dogs on the key fob was identified as Gerry's blood. GM is alive and kicking.
Grossly misleading quote from his book:-
Quote Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it's Keela's turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood. The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cadaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it's probably there that the death occurred. Unquote
As I have said many times amaral did not understand the dogs alerts...a pretty poor show considering his position. Not only that most of the posters who condemn the Mcanns have believed what he said. There would probably be a lot less posters falsely condemning the McCanns if it was not for amaral getting it wrong.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 16, 2014, 10:04:48 AM
As I have said many times amaral did not understand the dogs alerts...a pretty poor show considering his position. Not only that most of the posters who condemn the Mcanns have believed what he said. There would probably be a lot less posters falsely condemning the McCanns if it was not for amaral getting it wrong.
I suspected the pair from as early as the 4th May 2007 press appeal.
No matter how hard Kate strained she couldn't get a single real tear drop to come out for the cameras.
I've seen better acting on Eastenders.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2014, 10:21:05 AM
I suspected the pair from as early as the 4th May 2007 press appeal.
No matter how hard Kate strained she couldn't get a single real tear drop to come out for the cameras.
I've seen better acting on Eastenders.
No one with any brains watches eastenders...don't bother replying to any of my posts as from this moment on you are on ignore after your comments re simon Weston horrific injuries in the falklands...anyone who converse with you is similar s..m...imo
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 16, 2014, 10:25:31 AM
No one with any brains watches eastenders...don't bother replying to any of my posts as from this moment on you are on ignore after your comments re simon Weston horrific injuries in the falklands...anyone who converse with you is similar s..m...imo
Oh, I'm heartbroken that you don't like me dave.
Do you want to hear some Madeleine McCann jokes?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
What on earth is your purpose? Do you expect to get high-fived for that as well? You're just alienating yourself for some reason best known to yourself. Does that make you feel better?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 05:03:14 PM
There would have been no book either - if Amara had understood/accepted the FSS reports relating to the dogs' alerts. imo
His description of how the dogs work is completely wrong too. He conveniently forgets to mention that Eddie alerted to blood as well as cadaverscent and that is the true reason why he was always sent in first - or that both dogs alerted to blood from living people.
Edidie is not sent in to search for blood but remnant cadaver scent (obviously in places where no body is there) ......he is a cadaver dog first and foremost even if he can smell blood......if he alerts then the blood dog is sent in to find forensics ie blood, that might shed light in a case, simple as that, no need to complicate matters
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 16, 2014, 05:09:54 PM
Edidie is not sent in to search for blood but cadaver scent..he is a cadaver dog first and foremost even if he can smell blood......if he alerts then the blood dog is sent in to find forensics ie blood, simple as that, no need to complicate matters
Eddie was originally trained as a Victim Recovery Dog and not as a Cadaver Dog.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 05:20:35 PM
Eddie was originally trained as a Victim Recovery Dog and not as a Cadaver Dog.
Says who? Do you actually know the difference either? Grime says he was trained on decomposing piglets....and later in a stint in the USA on human cadavers...hardly material to help find living victims
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 16, 2014, 05:26:22 PM
Says who? Do you actually know the difference either? Grime says he was trained on decomposing piglets....and later in a stint in the USA on human cadavers...hardly material to help find living victims
Of course I know the difference, and so do you. And you know why "Enhanced" was added to his title. I really don't know why you go on telling fibs.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on February 16, 2014, 06:05:41 PM
Edidie is not sent in to search for blood but remnant cadaver scent (obviously in places where no body is there) ......he is a cadaver dog first and foremost even if he can smell blood......if he alerts then the blood dog is sent in to find forensics ie blood, that might shed light in a case, simple as that, no need to complicate matters
Eddie will react to anything he is trained to react to, which includes blood.
He will also make errors (such as with cuddle-cat).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:07:09 PM
Edidie is not sent in to search for blood but remnant cadaver scent (obviously in places where no body is there) ......he is a cadaver dog first and foremost even if he can smell blood......if he alerts then the blood dog is sent in to find forensics ie blood, that might shed light in a case, simple as that, no need to complicate matters
There's nothing complicated about it Red. Both dogs could detect blood, which is why Grime did not bother to send Keela in at all - if Eddie had made no alerts. Grime knew there was no need to send her in because if any blood had been present Eddie would have detected it.
Eddie was trained to detect cadaverscent and blood. But there was no way he could tell his handler which one of the two odours he was alerting to - which is why Grime always sent Keela in afterwards.
Amaral's description of Eddie as only alerting to cadaverscent is completely wrong and therefore misleading.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:18:35 PM
There's nothing complicated about it Red. Both dogs could detect blood, which is why Grime did not bother to send Keela in at all - if Eddie had made no alerts. Grime knew there was no need to send her in because if any blood had been present Eddie would have detected it.
Eddie was trained to detect cadaverscent and blood. But there was no way he could tell his handler which one of the two odours he was alerting to - which is why Grime always sent Keela in afterwards.
Amaral's description of Eddie as only alerting to cadaverscent is completely wrong and therefore misleading.
One exception: the inspection in the gym, where Keela was sent in first ...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:24:11 PM
There's nothing complicated about it Red. Both dogs could detect blood, which is why Grime did not bother to send Keela in at all - if Eddie had made no alerts. Grime knew there was no need to send her in because if any blood had been present Eddie would have detected it.
Eddie was trained to detect cadaverscent and blood. But there was no way he could tell his handler which one of the two odours he was alerting to - which is why Grime always sent Keela in afterwards.
You are so very wrong Benice and promulgating the myth Eddie and Keela are sent in to detect blood only! God, heard it all now
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 16, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Edidie is not sent in to search for blood but remnant cadaver scent (obviously in places where no body is there) ......he is a cadaver dog first and foremost even if he can smell blood......if he alerts then the blood dog is sent in to find forensics ie blood, that might shed light in a case, simple as that, no need to complicate matters
That would seem to be the general idea, but Eddie would react to other substances within his training parameters. He wasn't trained to find decomposing semen as far as I know (cf Jersey), but it was clearly within his training parameters as there was still a scent of decomposition, but it wouldn't have, of itself, indicated the presence of a dead body.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:33:29 PM
That would seem to be the general idea, but Eddie would react to other substances within his training parameters. He wasn't trained to find decomposing semen as far as I know (cf Jersey), but it was clearly within his training parameters as there was still a scent of decomposition, but it wouldn't have, of itself, indicated the presence of a dead body.
In semen, the substance is cadaverine, a decomposing component in living bodies and also a constituent of pseudo-scents, of which Grime said Eddie would not react to.
But what was the scent that sample pair of pants perfumed with that Eddie was tasked to find in the Sam Parker case?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:36:27 PM
Everything sent to the FSS was alerted to by both dogs ...
Yea, but it doesn't prove anything, let's not forget Eddie alerted in more places in 5a (and later with the clothes) than the blood dog did so no blood!
Verandah Wardrobe Flower bed clothes from mccanns soft toy
no blood, ergo?????
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:38:30 PM
That would seem to be the general idea, but Eddie would react to other substances within his training parameters. He wasn't trained to find decomposing semen as far as I know (cf Jersey), but it was clearly within his training parameters as there was still a scent of decomposition, but it wouldn't have, of itself, indicated the presence of a dead body.
I can't see tenants or cleaners in 5a leaving sperm around, but if it floats your boat
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on February 16, 2014, 06:41:48 PM
Yea, but it doesn't prove anything, let's not forget Eddie alerted in more places in 5a (and later with the clothes) than the blood dog did so no blood!
Verandah Wardrobe Flower bed clothes from mccanns soft toy
no blood, ergo?????
Alerting errors?
And as Grime explains, the place a dog alerts is not necessarily the provenance of a source.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:44:10 PM
So John Paul Gordon didn't pace the whole apartment for 45 minutes trying to stem blood from a very bad shaving cut?
so what? He didn't bleed in the wardrobe or the verandah or the flower bed or Kate mccanns clothes did he? Seeing as the blood dog said NO to all those
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:45:25 PM
so what? He didn't bleed in the wardrobe or the verandah or the flower bed or Kate mccanns clothes did he? Seeing as the blood dog said NO to all those
The place a dog alerts is not necessarily the source of the scent.
Grime explains that.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 06:53:33 PM
The place a dog alerts is not necessarily the source of the scent.
Grime explains that.
As I said it has limits, Eddie is not going to alert in a specific room if the bloodbath happened in another one is he? Or are we to believe his nose was so sensitive he smelt the blood on entering the apartment but decided NOT to alert in the hall, kitchen, bath, kids room etc
funny how this guy bled "all over the apartment" but keela found nothing except at the back of the bloody sofa excuse the pun
well Ferryman, leave it to you now, floors all yours, not convinced by your arguments......they lack
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2014, 06:56:38 PM
I suspected the pair from as early as the 4th May 2007 press appeal.
No matter how hard Kate strained she couldn't get a single real tear drop to come out for the cameras.
I've seen better acting on Eastenders.
Possibly. Except that she wasn't acting in an episode of Eastenders. This was real life. Real shock, a real missing child, real flashing lights and cameras.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Redblossom on February 16, 2014, 07:01:59 PM
You are so very wrong Benice and promulgating the myth Eddie and Keela are sent in to detect blood only! God, heard it all now
That is not what I said at all. There is no way Grime could make Eddie only alert to blood and not to cadaverscent once the dog had been trained to alert to both. All Eddie had learned was that if he barked when he detected certain SMELLS he pleased his owner and got a reward. And that would be the limit of his understanding IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 12:13:59 AM
That is not what I said at all. There is no way Grime could make Eddie only alert to blood and not to cadaverscent once the dog had been trained to alert to both. All Eddie had learned was that if he barked when he detected certain SMELLS he pleased his owner and got a reward. And that would be the limit of his understanding IMO.
Tell that to Adrian Prout. Eddie was no amateur!
'The Perfect Murder' "Documentary examining how the threat of divorce forced a husband to kill his wife to save his farm. Although now behind bars, Adrian Prout still hasn't revealed where his dead wife lies." 60mins
Prout, who had a successful pipe laying business, formally reported his wife missing on November 10, 2007, telling officers she had vanished from their home. Eddie went about the house, and indicated a death smell between the couch and the window in one room. There was never any forensic evidence, no evidence of a crime scene being washed away, and no body. The police assumed she was dead, and a conviction was obtained, because Eddie did what he was trained to do. The police decided that they were looking for a dead person because all the evidence pointed to that. Officers charged him with her murder in March 2008. The case was taken to trial at Bristol Crown Court despite the lack of a corpse and a jury convicted Prout of murder by a 10-1 majority following a three week trial in February 2010 . November 2011, Adrian Prout has admitted to those detectives that he murdered Kate Prout – something which he had always denied – and has now suggested that he disposed of her body on Redhill Farm, in Redmarley. He has agreed to visit the farm to point out the exact location."
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2014, 12:19:24 AM
The body of Prout's wife was never in the living room. The dog failed to react to where the body did lay for a short time, and failed to react to where the body was buried.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 12:34:41 AM
Eddie alerted to cadaver scent which he is what he is trained to do. Who else got killed? And who finally confessed to her murder after many denials. Kate's cadaver scent had to be transferred to the living room.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2014, 12:45:07 AM
Eddie alerted to cadaver scent which he is what he is trained to do. Who else got killed? And who finally confessed to her murder after many denials. Kate's cadaver scent had to be transferred to the living room.
Yer well, any old explanation will do. How come Eddie didn't react to the back of the truck in which the body was driven? And how come Eddie didn't find the grave which was on the same farm land? Oh, and not buried under concrete, by the way.
Why did he confess? Well he did fail a polygraph, and he was already banged up. And no doubt a confession and contrition will get him out sooner. Meanwhile, Eddie reacted to entirely the wrong place while missing all of the right places.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 01:09:00 AM
Don't worry Eleanor because unfortunately Eddie found cadaver scent. Smithman was last seen with Madeleine and anyone involved would suppress any efits of that man. The time of death will be connected to the cadaver clothes. You will just have to be patient - Truth will out!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 17, 2014, 01:17:22 AM
'The Perfect Murder' "Documentary examining how the threat of divorce forced a husband to kill his wife to save his farm. Although now behind bars, Adrian Prout still hasn't revealed where his dead wife lies." 60mins
Prout, who had a successful pipe laying business, formally reported his wife missing on November 10, 2007, telling officers she had vanished from their home. Eddie went about the house, and indicated a death smell between the couch and the window in one room. There was never any forensic evidence, no evidence of a crime scene being washed away, and no body. The police assumed she was dead, and a conviction was obtained, because Eddie did what he was trained to do. The police decided that they were looking for a dead person because all the evidence pointed to that. Officers charged him with her murder in March 2008. The case was taken to trial at Bristol Crown Court despite the lack of a corpse and a jury convicted Prout of murder by a 10-1 majority following a three week trial in February 2010 . November 2011, Adrian Prout has admitted to those detectives that he murdered Kate Prout – something which he had always denied – and has now suggested that he disposed of her body on Redhill Farm, in Redmarley. He has agreed to visit the farm to point out the exact location."
I have no idea what any of that has got to do with my post saying that Eddie was only concerned with seeking out odours that he had been trained to track down. He was trained to alert to cadaverscent and BLOOD. Blood could be from a dead or living body - Eddie could not differentiate between the two.
My point was that there is no way his handler could send him in to search for one odour with instructions to ignore the other.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 17, 2014, 01:20:19 AM
There was no blood found at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog and she has to get very close with her nose to alert to blood. Eddie picked up cadaver scent straight away as soon as he entered 5A. This was commented on by Grime as soon as the dog got there.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2014, 01:20:43 AM
Don't worry Eleanor because unfortunately Eddie found cadaver scent. Smithman was last seen with Madeleine and anyone involved would suppress any efits of that man. The time of death will be connected to the cadaver clothes. You will just have to be patient - Truth will out!
Connected to Cadaver Clothes? What on earth are you talking about? The Abductor's Lawyer would make minced meat out of that.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 01:32:56 AM
@pathfinder IMO both yourself and Mr Amaral are incorrectly assuming strictly that the clothes came into contact with something while the clothes' owner WAS wearing them. Have you considered the alternative which is that the clothes came into contact with something while the clothes were in a wardrobe and the clothes owner WAS NOT wearing them? In that very possible scenario the clothes owner is likely to be completely innocent IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 17, 2014, 01:34:56 AM
There was no blood found at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog and she has to get very close with her nose to alert to blood. Eddie picked up cadaver scent straight away as soon as he entered 5A. This was commented on by Grime as soon as the dog got there.
Grime also said that because the dog had alerted at that spot did not mean it was the original source - because the odour can drift.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 02:50:23 AM
IMO possibly the greatest error of logic in the book, is the implied assumption that the clothing items were being worn while those items contacted the source.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2014, 02:55:38 AM
IMO possibly the greatest error of logic in the book, is the implied assumption that the clothing items were being worn while those items contacted the source.
And if you consider the way in which they were transported and then laid out in two different places, you might be forgiven for thinking that any Court might fall about laughing.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 03:50:52 AM
But the point is, that even if the signals of the two adult clothing items by Eddie are 100% correct, those signals IN NO WAY incriminate the individual owner of those clothes. If some other person (without your knowledge) temporarily hid some crystal meth under a pile of your clothes, and a dog just like Eddie but trained for drugs later correctly signalled crystal meth on those clothes of yours, would that incriminate you? NO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2014, 03:58:26 AM
But the point is, that even if the signals of the two adult clothing items by Eddie are 100% correct, those signals IN NO WAY incriminate the individual owner of those clothes. If some other person (without your knowledge) temporarily hid some crystal meth under a pile of your clothes, and a dog just like Eddie but trained for drugs later correctly signalled crystal meth on those clothes of yours, would that incriminate you? NO.
I think it might be a bit more basic than that. But no one, not even Martin Grime knows what was alerted to. Too many variables. And never any forensics.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 04:22:36 AM
Well I have come to the conclusion that even if Eddie was totally correct about the 2 adult clothing items, it absolutely is 100% unjust to assume that the person who owns them was wearing them at the time, and IMO the owner of those 2 items is completely innocent. IMO the book is fair game for correction, in those parts where the logic is wrong like this.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carew on February 17, 2014, 05:53:21 AM
That is not what I said at all. There is no way Grime could make Eddie only alert to blood and not to cadaverscent once the dog had been trained to alert to both. All Eddie had learned was that if he barked when he detected certain SMELLS he pleased his owner and got a reward. And that would be the limit of his understanding IMO.
With regard to accuracy in results and gathering information, surely a positive alert is of equal value to a negative one in an investigation.
This "reward" system would seem to scupper that.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carew on February 17, 2014, 06:03:04 AM
That is not what I said at all. There is no way Grime could make Eddie only alert to blood and not to cadaverscent once the dog had been trained to alert to both. All Eddie had learned was that if he barked when he detected certain SMELLS he pleased his owner and got a reward. And that would be the limit of his understanding IMO.
Isn`t this really all about trying to expunge the whole idea of "cadaver scent" .........and replace it with nosebleed splatterings, toenail clippings and so forth by sheer persistence and wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: EnolaStraight on February 17, 2014, 07:46:22 AM
Why do the two current investigations seem to place no weight on the dog evidence?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 17, 2014, 08:05:20 AM
Isn`t this really all about trying to expunge the whole idea of "cadaver scent" .........and replace it with nosebleed splatterings, toenail clippings and so forth by sheer persistence and wishful thinking?
Not at all. It's dealing with the fabrication in Amaral's book that Eddie only alerted to cadaverscent. He appears to be the one suffering from 'wishful thinking' in that respect.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2014, 12:46:46 PM
But the point is, that even if the signals of the two adult clothing items by Eddie are 100% correct, those signals IN NO WAY incriminate the individual owner of those clothes. If some other person (without your knowledge) temporarily hid some crystal meth under a pile of your clothes, and a dog just like Eddie but trained for drugs later correctly signalled crystal meth on those clothes of yours, would that incriminate you? NO.
Have you watched the clothing video and what Eddie actually alerted to? I've posted my observations on here somewhere and it's not at all clear to me. His reactions don't seem to correspond to what was noted by the PJ, neither is it clear what the noted reaction actually was: tossing items in the air, nuzzling them, running and nuzzling... I don't see the logic.
For some reason, Grime stated that he didn't have the details... why not?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2014, 01:04:23 PM
Why do the two current investigations seem to place no weight on the dog evidence?
In my view, Eddie was a generalist and Keela was the specialist. He was meant to locate the haystack and Keela the needle. The needles that Keela found, in this case, did not lead anywhere.
The duo was an interesting combination, but, for some reason, some people seem to have assumed that if Keela didn't react (but he had) that it necessarily indicated that a cadaver had been present. Was Eddie oversold?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on February 17, 2014, 05:02:11 PM
Have you watched the clothing video and what Eddie actually alerted to? I've posted my observations on here somewhere and it's not at all clear to me. His reactions don't seem to correspond to what was noted by the PJ, neither is it clear what the noted reaction actually was: tossing items in the air, nuzzling them, running and nuzzling... I don't see the logic. For some reason, Grime stated that he didn't have the details... why not?
Good point Carana I will answer on a EVRD thread as requested by John
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on February 18, 2014, 10:15:03 AM
In my view, Eddie was a generalist and Keela was the specialist. He was meant to locate the haystack and Keela the needle. The needles that Keela found, in this case, did not lead anywhere.
The duo was an interesting combination, but, for some reason, some people seem to have assumed that if Keela didn't react (but he had) that it necessarily indicated that a cadaver had been present. Was Eddie oversold?
Yet you see the logic of pretendy burglars abducting a child!
Even if the dogs have signaled for non recuperable (bungled by FSS) forensic material to be taken to trial, the simple fact that a possible death occurred there, or a dead body was there, should be addressed and not substituted by stupid, unfounded accusations to police or fictitious burglars.
In any case, after hundreds of police people involved in the investigation, portuguese and british, it's quite telling the fact that the persecution is upon the only person that had the guts to leave his job of 27 years in order to be able to speak up.
Why would a professional leave a career, where he was considered one of the top, to be able to speak?! Because he was wrong or because his sense of justice was more important than to contribute to a huge blackout over a crime committed against a young child?!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 18, 2014, 10:52:35 AM
Goncalo Amaral saw the means to make loads a money, which he wasn't allowed to do as a serving officer. It's all perfectly simple.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 18, 2014, 11:03:00 AM
Whereas Kate's book's profits were donated to charity, I suppose. 8(0(*
Oh yes.
Poor Ms Healy that had to secure a part time job prior to Madeleine's disappearance, in order to meet expenses, now is a stay-at-home mum for 2 school kids, dresses as she never did before, can allow herself to stay in 5 star hotels...,while Amaral is residing in his late parents home and barely making money to survive.
I'm sure you've never heard that for the McCann "charity" starts at home, and especially if they can take money from everyone they dislike.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 18, 2014, 11:20:05 AM
Whereas Kate's book's profits were donated to charity, I suppose. 8(0(*
Well the next best thing;- a private company limited by guarantee with articles of association that allow the directors to do what they wish as long as they don't run foul of The Companies Act.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on February 18, 2014, 11:48:50 AM
Well the next best thing;- a private company limited by guarantee with articles of association that allow the directors to do what they wish as long as they don't run foul of The Companies Act.
Which they haven't. Don't you think we would know if they had?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 18, 2014, 12:02:29 PM
Poor Ms Healy that had to secure a part time job prior to Madeleine's disappearance, in order to meet expenses, now is a stay-at-home mum for 2 school kids, dresses as she never did before, can allow herself to stay in 5 star hotels...,while Amaral is residing in his late parents home and barely making money to survive.
I'm sure you've never heard that for the McCann "charity" starts at home, and especially if they can take money from everyone they dislike.
Oh dear Luz
Such sour grapes. My heart bleeds for him.
The fact is that Amaral gave up his job to write a sensationalist book about the case, with the aim of making a pile of money. And for a while he did. And while it lasted he was rolling in snappy suits, earrings, parties and Jags.
And if Kate McCann is a stay at home mum who can dress nicely I suspect this may have something to do with Dr McCanns career as a successful NHS consultant. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: icabodcrane on February 19, 2014, 11:12:49 PM
The fact is that Amaral gave up his job to write a sensationalist book about the case, with the aim of making a pile of money. And for a while he did. And while it lasted he was rolling in snappy suits, earrings, parties and Jags.
And if Kate McCann is a stay at home mum who can dress nicely I suspect this may have something to do with Dr McCanns career as a successful NHS consultant. 8)-)))
The thread header asks whether Amaral was 'fair game' given the content of his book
Although you presume to know his motives for writing the book ( which you cannot ) that really has nothing to do with the question raised by the op ... did the CONTENT of Amaral's book justify the orchestrated attack on his private and professional life
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 19, 2014, 11:28:56 PM
The thread header asks whether Amaral was 'fair game' given the content of his book
Although you presume to know his motives for writing the book ( which you cannot ) that really has nothing to do with the question raised by the op ... did the CONTENT of Amaral's book justify the orchestrated attack on his private and professional life
I think amaral is fair game for writing the book..anyone who puts themselves in the limelight has to expect it...including the mccanns...libel however is not acceptable ...according to the law
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on February 20, 2014, 08:36:55 AM
I think amaral is fair game for writing the book..anyone who puts themselves in the limelight has to expect it...including the mccanns...libel however is not acceptable ...according to the law
The Law has yet to pronounce on the issue - at least in Portugal.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2014, 08:51:19 AM
The fact is that Amaral gave up his job to write a sensationalist book about the case, with the aim of making a pile of money. And for a while he did. And while it lasted he was rolling in snappy suits, earrings, parties and Jags.
And if Kate McCann is a stay at home mum who can dress nicely I suspect this may have something to do with Dr McCanns career as a successful NHS consultant. 8)-)))
Are you a member of the 'I love the mccanns' appreciation society ? 8((()*/
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 20, 2014, 11:06:06 PM
I ask myself what I would do if I was a provincial thief taker of many years experience and success, suddenly accused of running an investigation intentionally off the rails, sued, defamed, sacked, smeared, and all with an innocent little girl at stake.
I applaud Amaral. He is Madeleine's only hero.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 20, 2014, 11:08:25 PM
I ask myself what I would do if I was a provincial thief taker of many years experience and success, suddenly accused of running an investigation intentionally off the rails, sued, defamed, sacked, smeared, and all with an innocent little girl at stake.
I applaud Amaral. He is Madeleine's only hero.
provincial thief taker?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on February 20, 2014, 11:11:01 PM
For a moment I thought Amaral was described as attractive
Has someone forgotten to take their red pills 8)--))
I think he is attractive.
Not as attractive as Kate of course (who is?).
Intelligence is attractive.
The ability to add 2 + 2 and come up with 4 is not particularly common, especially when the word McCann is involved.
How these people can be so "well educated", and still have no more sense than the average turnip, is beyond me. Even rats care for their young when they are tiny and helpless.
PS do you think Kate the GP prescribed her patients a night out drinking alone if their babies cried too much?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 21, 2014, 08:55:25 AM
[... quote deleted on basis of banned adjectives being used ..]
The fact that it was the McCanns decision which unwittingly enabled a situation where their daughter could be abducted, doesn't give ANYONE the right to enter their apartment and take their child. The abductor(s) are the only criminals in this case. I don't see anyone blaming the Needham family for unwittingly enabling a situation where Ben was able to be abducted. I hear no shrieks of 'He should never have been left on his own' in his case. They put the blame firmly on the abductors - and rightly so.
You might as well be saying that if your house is burglared when you go out - it's your own fault because it was your decision to out in the first place - and so you mustn't blame the burglar. Absolute nonsense IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2014, 09:03:40 AM
[... quote deleted on basis of banned adjectives being used ..]
The fact that it was the McCanns decision which unwittingly enabled a situation where their daughter could be abducted, doesn't give ANYONE the right to enter their apartment and take their child. The abductor(s) are the only criminals in this case. I don't see anyone blaming the Needham family for unwittingly enabling a situation where Ben was able to be abducted. I hear no shrieks of 'He should never have been left on his own' in his case. They put the blame firmly on the abductors - and rightly so.
You might as well be saying that if your house is burglared when you go out - it's your own fault because it was your decision to out in the first place - and so you mustn't blame the burglar. Absolute nonsense IMO.
What abductors ?
Cite the evidence please.
As regards Mr. Amaral, as has been often said, he tried to help solve the case.
No more, no less.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 21, 2014, 09:39:07 AM
As regards Mr. Amaral, as has been often said, he tried to help solve the case.
No more, no less.
The evidence has been cited many times Stephen. The fact that you don't want to believe it is irrelevant to SY - who obviously do believe it.
Amaral tried to get a 'result' - at any price IMO. If he had done his job properly and concluded that having explored every avenue with their somewhat limited resources - they had not been able to solve the case - then no-one would have criticised him IMO.
However, his approach seemed to be an attempted mirror image of a previous case. i.e. He made his mind up who the perpetrators were first - and then tried to make the evidence fit his thesis- to the exclusion of everything else. You only have to read his book to see that. He failed miserably because he was always barking up the wrong tree IMO.
His decision to never meet or speak to the McCanns remains incomprehensible to me. His efforts to try to hide that fact in his book are dishonest IMO and proves he had no scruples about conning his readers into believing that his account was a 'first hand' account - when that could not be further from the truth. But no doubt 'first hand 'accounts sell more books than second/third/hand accounts.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Admin on February 21, 2014, 09:39:12 AM
Yes - I believe Amarals conviction for fraud concerned property.
According to the reports there was no fraud conviction. It was a civil case brought by his brother. The outcome being that Dr Amaral and his ex wife had to refund equity in property to his brother.
The only conviction that we are aware of relating to Dr Amaral is that in the Cipriano case and was a suspended sentence of 18 months.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on February 21, 2014, 09:46:18 AM
According to the reports there was no fraud conviction. It wasa civil case brought by his brother.
I stand corrected. However IIRC the case against him was proved - as fraudulent actions on his part against his brother were established in court. If that is wrong I will be happy to retract.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 21, 2014, 09:51:17 AM
The evidence has been cited many times Stephen. The fact that you don't want to believe it is irrelevant to SY - who obviously do believe it.
Amaral tried to get a 'result' - at any price IMO. If he had done his job properly and concluded that having explored every avenue with their somewhat limited resources - they had not been able to solve the case - then no-one would have criticised him IMO.
However, his approach seemed to be an attempted mirror image of a previous case. i.e. He made his mind up who the perpetrators were first - and then tried to make the evidence fit his thesis- to the exclusion of everything else. You only have to read his book to see that. He failed miserably because he was always barking up the wrong tree IMO.
His decision to never meet or speak to the McCanns remains incomprehensible to me. His efforts to try to hide that fact in his book are dishonest IMO and proves he had no scruples about conning his readers into believing that his account was a 'first hand' account - when that could not be further from the truth. But no doubt 'first hand 'accounts sell more books than second/third/hand accounts.
Incorrect.
There is not one piece of evidence as you would call it, that would stand up in court of abduction.
No forensics.
A child being carried in someone's arms is not evidence of abduction.
The mccanns accounts and associates are not consistent.
The claim of km outside the Portuguese court to the effect, 'we were there' when questioned by the Portuguese reporter is derisory, how could they be there,if they were at the Tapas bar ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 09:21:57 AM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html
Well worth reading again from alpha to omega!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Luz on March 17, 2014, 10:24:10 AM
Dear me - no wonder you believe the McCanns are guilty if you believe that load of misinformation.
Amaral is a proven liar, a fraudster, and also an adulterer. Some hero eh?
[... abusive deleted ...] Amaral is nothing that you accuse him of. But the fact that the little McCann Cult felt the need to create such lies about the man that was investigating the false "abduction" of a child says it all.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 17, 2014, 12:24:02 PM
Lying in Court was probably the most serious, although Amaral's brother might not agree. After that, Adultery would be no more than one might expect. Of course he is "Fair Game" with his track record. And all proven and documented. What did he expect? Or does Free Speach only work for the likes of him in Portugal?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 17, 2014, 12:31:35 PM
Lying in Court was probably the most serious, although Amaral's brother might not agree. After that, Adultery would be no more than one might expect. Of course he is "Fair Game" with his track record. And all proven and documented. What did he expect? Or does Free Speach only work for the likes of him in Portugal?
Of greatest significance about the adultery was its aftermath, the abusive phone calls and the golden bullet death threat.
Nice.
And Amaral is defending his honour?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 12:33:26 PM
Those who attack Amaral and Paiva seem to cautiously avoid attacking other people part of the joint investigation The UK's top search expert from NPIA, the UK's top phone forensics expert, the UK's expert crime analysts from DCIU.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 12:35:22 PM
What do you mean? Are you proposing the azuremare theory (which bizarrely claimed that Amaral and Cristavao did it)?
Certainly not. Amaral said it, not me. But he certainly seems to have thought that it was possible to steal a child and blame the parents. He really should have been a bit more careful. It's all out there now.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 17, 2014, 01:25:15 PM
Amaral said, during that infamous telephone call, that he could make their daughter disappear and see to it that they got the blame. Very worrying in the light of Madeleine's disappearance.
And he threatened to shoot the husband of his mistress. I have no idea if he meant it, but I would have been scared witless if it had been me.
Can you please provide cites as per forum rules.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 01:31:35 PM
Just a reminder that the attacks on Mr Amaral began while he was working on the case. There is no other case in the world where the investigator has been attacked so vehemently. My friend in Chicago thinks there is something very odd behind these orchestrated attacks.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 01:35:49 PM
Just a reminder that the attacks on Mr Amaral began while he was working on the case. There is no other case in the world where the investigator has been attacked so vehemently. My friend in Chicago thinks there is something very odd behind these orchestrated attacks.
As does my friend in Kyrgyzstan...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 17, 2014, 01:36:00 PM
Just a reminder that the attacks on Mr Amaral began while he was working on the case. There is no other case in the world where the investigator has been attacked so vehemently. My friend in Chicago thinks there is something very odd behind these orchestrated attacks.
I think that the there was something very odd about the orchestrated attacks against The McCanns, never mind my friend in Chicago.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 01:39:32 PM
Noting a differencebetween the two books. One mentions being questioned about the black bag sighting, but Mr Amaral's appears to not mention it. (unless it's the pink blocks sighting?)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 17, 2014, 01:39:58 PM
Me being an unworldly character and all will someone clue me in; is "NOT" an acronym similar to "FIAT".
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 01:40:45 PM
What do you mean? Are you proposing the azuremare theory (which bizarrely claimed that Amaral and Cristavao did it)?
In answer to Cariad: Well it might have been wiped now. So much evidence is vanishing. But it has been seen by enough people in the case to believe it.
ETA I see that Eleanor thinks it is still available
To peagsus:
1. We are only repeating what Amaral said.
Do you think what he said was acceptable ?
.... or was it, maybe, something very worrying from a man who ermmm, "solves" missing child cases to say? Cases which look like abductions but the parents always get the blame, with no proof whatsoever
Do you think that what he said was acceptable Pegasus?
2. As far as I am awate there is nothing orchestrated about our responses on here. If there is, then I am not part of it and in seven years almost, I have never come across any orchestration. Another Myth from the peeps against the Mccanns ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 01:57:36 PM
BTW the food is superb, (back in spring 2009 it was anyway) Back to the current attacks on Mr Amaral: The irony is that the many Brit experts worked with Amaral in the original investigation, I doubt that the attacks on the competency of that original investigation will impress those peeps in the Met, DCIU, LP, NPIA etc
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 02:01:36 PM
Noting a differencebetween the two books. One mentions being questioned about the black bag sighting, but Mr Amaral's appears to not mention it. (unless it's the pink blocks sighting?)
Interesting. Could you cite the differences?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 17, 2014, 02:07:45 PM
BTW the food is superb, (back in spring 2009 it was anyway) Back to the current attacks on Mr Amaral: The irony is that the many Brit experts worked with Amaral in the original investigation, I doubt that the attacks on the competency of that original investigation will impress those peeps in the Met, DCIU, LP, NPIA etc
I doubt anything posted on forums or in the tabloids will influence the teams in charge of the investigation. At least, I hope not.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Anna on March 17, 2014, 02:30:45 PM
Noting a differencebetween the two books. One mentions being questioned about the black bag sighting, but Mr Amaral's appears to not mention it. (unless it's the pink blocks sighting?)
I assume this is the black bag sighting
Processos Vol II Page 316
External Inquiry
Date: 2007/05/07 Place: Lagos/Ponta da Piedade Officer responsible for inquiry: Carlos Pimenta, Inspector and Pedro Vilhena
Description and Result of Inquiry Yesterday afternoon, a German citizen, E***** V****, contacted the Lagos Maritime Police to say that during a boat outing in the zone in front of Farol da Ponta da Piedade, in Lagos, he saw a dark coloured bag amongst the cliffs, the bag was of some volume, contents unknown . Given that this individual was not available for the rest of the day, it was not possible for the Maritime Police to locate this object and the inquiry was programmed for today, in the morning. Embarking from " Lagos", at around 09h00, leaving from the quay of the marina (Lagos), the undersigned in the company of Assistant Specialist Pedro Vilhena, Commander Marques Pereira as well as two officers from the Maritime Police, following the indications of E**** V***, who accompanied us, we left for the ocean to the exact place where the bag in question could be observed. The bag was found lying on a part of the cliffs with difficult access, about 15 metres above the water line. Upon considering the place where the article was found, we had other PJ officers go to the same place via land. These officers managed to reach the bag in question and proceed to recover it. Photographic reports follow the statements with land-earth perspective. Attached to the statements is the RDE elaborated by the "team" which collected the article in question. Comments and or the proposition by the officer who executed the inquiry: Signature of the officer
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post2793.html#p2793
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 03:05:27 PM
Re black bag (not the black plastic bag on cliff) (1)book by KM says "A witness claimed to have seen ..." (2)book by GA appears to not mention that same event? Seems odd that GA would not mention it. IMO it maybe is in GA book after all, and in the files too, but both books get the exact details slightly wrong?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Anna on March 17, 2014, 03:28:55 PM
Re black bag (not the black plastic bag on cliff) (1)book by KM says "A witness claimed to have seen ..." (2)book by GA appears to not mention that same event? Seems odd that GA would not mention it. IMO it maybe is in GA book after all, and in the files too, but both books get the exact details slightly wrong?
What black bag? Do you mean the blue tennis bag?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 17, 2014, 03:32:32 PM
"The injunction is deemed not valid because it was not proved."
That is why there is a Libel Trial.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 03:43:13 PM
I haven't got her book or Amarals. I think it is a dreadful thing, to make money from a child who has disappeared so soon after her disappearance and with no known conclusions, but of course Amaral is allowed to write a book declaring she is dead without the crime ever being solved. That is a cruel and inhuman thing to do to any bereaved parents, IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 17, 2014, 04:06:08 PM
I haven't got her book or Amarals. I think it is a dreadful thing, to make money from a child who has disappeared so soon after her disappearance and with no known conclusions, but of course Amaral is allowed to write a book declaring she is dead without the crime ever being solved. That is a cruel and inhuman thing to do to any bereaved parents, IMO.
GA book is accesible online link available. KM book also highly recommended I dont have online link. IMO both genuinely searching hard for the child.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 17, 2014, 04:10:18 PM
So no defamation is being considered in the current Trial, despite Amaral accusing The McCanns of being responsible for their daughter's death and hiding her body? Is this sort of thing allowed in Portugal?
Who knows? Lets wait and see - it should only be another year or two 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 17, 2014, 04:44:32 PM
Hmm... That's a toughy then as I'm pretty sure the forum doesn't encourage making claims without back up. Maybe a Mod come come and clarify?
Yes maybe mods can clarify can we post link, or if not can we post screenshot? IMO it is interesting stuff to see how the other world think, gloating over their attack without even pausing to realise they are pawns in the ONLY such years-long attack on an investigator anywhere in the world ever.
BTW even if that other site has removed their gloating page, with the puppet comments at the bottom, no problem, I think a mate of mine might have stashed away a screenshot 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 17, 2014, 06:06:18 PM
Those of a certain persuasion seem to have wiped most traces from the net.
But one remains.
Try googling the names of Ana Sofia Bras and her husband, Jose Araujo
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 17, 2014, 06:49:34 PM
Post the link if it is relevant.
Also, could we stay on topic and avoid posting spam.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: sadie on March 17, 2014, 07:40:03 PM
Thank you for the link. I've never seen that site before. I 'll have a good browse there!
What I was looking for though was some evidence that Dr Amaral had threatened to 'disappear' a child, which is what Sadie and Eleanor were discussing earlier and I can't find anything about that in your link?
Have I missed it or does it not exist?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: slartibartfast on March 17, 2014, 08:59:34 PM
According to the reports there was no fraud conviction. It was a civil case brought by his brother. The outcome being that Dr Amaral and his ex wife had to refund equity in property to his brother.
The only conviction that we are aware of relating to Dr Amaral is that in the Cipriano case and was a suspended sentence of 18 months.
Goncalo Amaral and Sofia Leal also had to reimburse double the amount that they misappropriated as a means of restitution. This sounds like a fine to me.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 01:47:41 AM
Mr Amaral's film reconstructs (using an actress) the child waking up for no particular reason and walking out of the bedroom into the lounge carrying the cat. Do you think that is correct? If not, what are the first few seconds step by step of your better theory?
The point is, the forum is full of debates about important matters, but there is almost nothing at the very basic, first few seconds, step by step level, which at least Mr Amaral tried to do.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on March 18, 2014, 01:49:27 AM
Goncalo Amaral and Sofia Leal also had to reimburse double the amount that they misappropriated as a means of restitution. This sounds like a fine to me.
No, not a fine. The money went to the brother and not to the State. This sort of arrangement is quite normal in Spain and Portugal. To give you some idea how this works, if someone intends to buy a house, pays a deposit but later pulls out he will lose the deposit. If the seller pulls out he has to pay the prospective buyer a sum equal to twice the deposit. I always found the Spanish system worked a treat...cuts out the gazumpers and the time wasters big time. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 02:01:47 AM
No, not a fine. The money went to the brother and not to the State. This sort of arrangement is quite normal in Spain and Portugal. To give you some idea how this works, if someone intends to buy a house, pays a deposit but later pulls out he will lose the deposit. If the seller pulls out he has to pay the prospective buyer a sum equal to twice the deposit. I always found the Spanish system worked a treat...cuts out the gazumpers and the time wasters big time. 8(0(*
Sounds like a sensible way of doing things. Misappropriate a euro, and you must pay the euro back plus another euro. The english system could learn from that IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 18, 2014, 02:07:40 AM
No, not a fine. The money went to the brother and not to the State. This sort of arrangement is quite normal in Spain and Portugal. To give you some idea how this works, if someone intends to buy a house, pays a deposit but later pulls out he will lose the deposit. If the seller pulls out he has to pay the prospective buyer a sum equal to twice the deposit. I always found the Spanish system worked a treat...cuts out the gazumpers and the time wasters big time. 8(0(*
Agreed, not a fine exactly. But still a punishment. And pulling out of a contract is hardly as serious as half inching your brother's money.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 18, 2014, 08:16:14 AM
Do you have evidence to support your statements. If not they are merely unsubstantiated statements.
Its called common sense...something in very short supply on this thread...the allegations hadn't been proved..thats what it says...and that's why there is a libel trial...to prove the allegations
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 18, 2014, 08:48:57 AM
Its called common sense...something in very short supply on this thread...the allegations hadn't been proved..thats what it says...and that's why there is a libel trial...to prove the allegations
So you cannot substantiate it either. Why am I not surprised.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 18, 2014, 08:49:39 AM
Its called common sense...something in very short supply on this thread...the allegations hadn't been proved..thats what it says...and that's why there is a libel trial...to prove the allegations
As I understand it, the injunction that was deemed not valid was the injunction banning Dr Amaral's book and the on going trail is a civil matter about compensation, not libel.
I'm sure someone will point out my mistake, should I have made one though.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 10:25:20 AM
Mr Amaral's film reconstructs (using an actress) the child waking up for no particular reason and walking out of the bedroom into the lounge carrying the cat. Do you think that is correct? If not, what are the first few seconds step by step of your better theory?
The point is, the forum is full of debates about important matters, but there is almost nothing at the very basic, first few seconds, step by step level, which at least Mr Amaral tried to do.
Interesting, Pegasus.
I doubt that we'll ever know.
It would seem that Amaral was trying to tie in the fact that Grime had given Cuddlecat to the police for forensic analysis as a result of Eddie's alert to it and his alert in the sofa area, plus the fact that Gerry and Jez were chatting roughly outside the wndow.
Up to there, I don't have an issue with exploring that hypothesis. However, there was no forensic evidence to back that up:
- The toy wasn't sent for forensic analysis (and I'm not at all sure what they would have been testing it for anyway back then);
- There was nothing noteworthy found behind the sofa (aside from a partial match to one of the cops and a partial match to someone's DNA identified in a very old crime scene - presumably UK) ETA: not necessarily, it could have been an Interpol database, but without enough markers to be significant);
- I'm not aware that the initial forensic team checked the window behind the sofa for finger/palmprints (that might have been a corroborating indication, but non-identifiable without a reference, and possibly an innocent incident prior to the disappearance, even if prints had turned out be those of a 3-year-old;
- Six hairs from her bed disappeared and were never analysed;
- A number of hairs (which may or may not have been relevant) were never identified as potentially belonging to any of the profiles of those known to have been in the apartment... but then not all of the previous occupants / people were tested to eliminate them, and, even if they had been, any of them could have brought friends / new acquaintances over for / coffee/ drinks / dinner.
So... he was defending his hypothesis, but he couldn't back it up. Not because he was taken off the case at a "crucial" moment, but because there WAS nothing to back it up.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 10:40:09 AM
A further point is that the initial forensic team seemed to have concentrated on:
- the passageway to both doors, - the kids' bedroom (floor and hairs, even though some of those were lost), - the inside of the window in the kids' bedroom, - the outside of that shutter, - prints on the sliding door.
They don't seem to have checked the parents' bedroom, areas of the lounge not considered to be in a fleeting exit scenario, the wardrobes, the bathroom, kitchen, nor the external vicinity.
The forensics people no doubt did the best they could with whatever resources they had in an emergency situation, but it could hardly be described as a thorough examination.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 01:19:22 PM
Yes when Mr Amaral in his film shows the child actress walking and carrying the cat, it is based on assuming villa signals are of cat. IMO the film should instead show the child actress walking but leaving cat behind on bed (IMO villa signals are not of cat). Re 4th May forensics yes they seem to concentrate more on assumed entry/exit points, and less on internal spaces.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 18, 2014, 02:14:21 PM
Yes when Mr Amaral in his film shows the child actress walking and carrying the cat (based on signals in villa being of cat). IMO the film should instead show the child actress walking but leaving cat behind on bed (IMO signals in villa were not of cat). Re 4th May forensics yes they seem to concentrate more on assumed entry/exit points, and less on internal spaces.
That wouldn't have tied in with his theory that CC, discovered next to (or held with) a dead child was replaced on the bed after the grievance period of a few seconds or minutes of a much-loved first-born (as some seem to assume that one does), in order to set the scene for his theory of a faked abduction.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 18, 2014, 11:09:21 PM
That wouldn't have tied in with his theory that CC, discovered next to (or held with) a dead child was replaced on the bed ...
Precisely. Amaral suggests cat was carried from bed into another room by child, then cat was returned to bed by adult. I suggest child walked into another room but left cat behind on bed (and so the cat was not staged).
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 18, 2014, 11:21:35 PM
As I understand it, the injunction that was deemed not valid was the injunction banning Dr Amaral's book and the on going trail is a civil matter about compensation, not libel.
I'm sure someone will point out my mistake, should I have made one though.
I think you are listening to too many posters trying to spin the facts...this IS a libel trial....
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: xtina on March 19, 2014, 11:54:40 AM
Amaral standing by what he thinks happened to maddie...no regrets
http://videos.sapo.pt/11onQvrULT3GzrYFv07K
To: Gonçalo Amaral
Q: Do you regret anything?
“I would do exactly the same [today that I did then], with a small difference: I would not leave the Polícia Judiciária. It could be a problem for the Polícia Judiciária. I did think about it then, shall I leave or not, if I stay with the police I’m a problem for the police, or if I leave, I have all of the other problems.”
“I don’t regret what I did, I did it with conviction, I did it to defend the investigation model, what a criminal investigation is supposed to be. Earlier, you spoke about the politically correct, the politically correct policeman. It is my understanding that criminal investigations cannot be politically correct, because they can’t be concerned with politics. And what happened, and continues to happen, is that we have to be politically correct, subordinate to the English power. That happens, it happened on the 2nd of October [of 2007] at the Lisbon Treaty, there were discussions between José Sócrates, then prime minister, and Gordon Brown, the English prime minister, who told the newspapers that he had asked the Portuguese prime minister about the [Maddie] case. So even before that it was already a political case. And when politics intrude into a criminal investigation, nothing will end well, whether the criminal investigation relates to a homicide, a burglary, a disappearance, or corruption.”
“Going back to the beginning of the question, I don’t have any regrets. I don’t have regrets because although principles and values don’t fill the fridge, I feel rich in another way.”
[... content removed as it is opinion not supported by any proof ...]
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 19, 2014, 12:05:06 PM
If Amaral regrets leaving The PJ does this mean that he regrets writing his Book, which The PJ would not have allowed him to do?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: The Singularity on March 19, 2014, 12:33:28 PM
Reading that interview with Snr Amaral I can't help but have some pity for him. He's clearly a broken man and no doubt suffering ill health. Snr Amaral has been criticised for a great many things, but you can't question his passion once he has made his mind up about something no matter how inconceivable his conclusions are. I don’t think he was ready nor wanted the world media attention that fell upon him very suddenly.
However he remains staunchly and somewhat inexplicably narrow minded on the case even when faced with the fact that leads being followed up by Scotland Yard and the Portuguese review team are providing more realistic avenues of investigation. We could just put this down to pride, I imagine after the beating he has taken professionally in the press and his torrid personal life, all he really has left to cling on to is his pride.
I just hope that when Scotland Yard finally track down the people responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance he has not only the courage to admit that he was wrong, but also to apologise to Madeleine’s parents for his, at times, obscene behaviour towards them. I think this is the least he should do.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 19, 2014, 01:33:34 PM
Reading that interview with Snr Amaral I can't help but have some pity for him. He's clearly a broken man and no doubt suffering ill health. Snr Amaral has been criticised for a great many things, but you can't question his passion once he has made his mind up about something no matter how inconceivable his conclusions are. I don’t think he was ready nor wanted the world media attention that fell upon him very suddenly.
However he remains staunchly and somewhat inexplicably narrow minded on the case even when faced with the fact that leads being followed up by Scotland Yard and the Portuguese review team are providing more realistic avenues of investigation. We could just put this down to pride, I imagine after the beating he has taken professionally in the press and his torrid personal life, all he really has left to cling on to is his pride.
I just hope that when Scotland Yard finally track down the people responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance he has not only the courage to admit that he was wrong, but also to apologise to Madeleine’s parents for his, at times, obscene behaviour towards them. I think this is the least he should do.
What a load of rubbish.
Leads, what leads. ?
The 'leads' have led nowhere, and no more than just pointless hype.
If SY had a proverbial clue, the case would have been solved.
As to apologizing, the only people who should be doing that are the mccanns, for their inexcusable arrogance and stupidity, in placing their socializing over their children's welfare, night after night.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: LagosBen on March 19, 2014, 02:19:37 PM
Pretty obvious that Amaral has to stand by his claims....what else can he do? Admit he failed due to his tunnel vision......deliberate or not.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 19, 2014, 02:54:12 PM
Reading that interview with Snr Amaral I can't help but have some pity for him. He's clearly a broken man and no doubt suffering ill health. Snr Amaral has been criticised for a great many things, but you can't question his passion once he has made his mind up about something no matter how inconceivable his conclusions are. I don’t think he was ready nor wanted the world media attention that fell upon him very suddenly.
However he remains staunchly and somewhat inexplicably narrow minded on the case even when faced with the fact that leads being followed up by Scotland Yard and the Portuguese review team are providing more realistic avenues of investigation. We could just put this down to pride, I imagine after the beating he has taken professionally in the press and his torrid personal life, all he really has left to cling on to is his pride.
I just hope that when Scotland Yard finally track down the people responsible for Madeleine’s disappearance he has not only the courage to admit that he was wrong, but also to apologise to Madeleine’s parents for his, at times, obscene behaviour towards them. I think this is the least he should do.
If, SY ever manage to obtain a conviction, a number of people might need to admit they were wrong.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 19, 2014, 07:48:29 PM
It's the rest of that interview that I find intriguing. Especially his claims about the Smiths, the dogs and the forensic aspects. Oh dear.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 19, 2014, 07:55:32 PM
Pretty obvious that Amaral has to stand by his claims....what else can he do? Admit he failed due to his tunnel vision......deliberate or not.
If he'd said something along the lines of "put yourself in my shoes at the time" (the pressure, lack of resources, etc., what the thinking was at the time) and had simply left it open as to whether Madeleine could be alive or not, I expect that he would have had an equally lucrative book and wouldn't be in this mess.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 19, 2014, 10:08:09 PM
If he'd said something along the lines of "put yourself in my shoes at the time" (the pressure, lack of resources, etc., what the thinking was at the time) and had simply left it open as to whether Madeleine could be alive or not, I expect that he would have had an equally lucrative book and wouldn't be in this mess.
What "mess" is that?
The Libel Trials which he keeps winning?
The SY investigation which is, bit by bit, confirming his theories?
Now we have confirmation that Madeleine likely died in that apartment that night....just like Amaral said.
There are only two perhaps 9 people in a "mess" and it isnt the ex-CIO!!!!!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 19, 2014, 10:13:31 PM
Pretty obvious that Amaral has to stand by his claims....what else can he do? Admit he failed due to his tunnel vision......deliberate or not.
Does "deliberate or not" mean you are not sure whether he was incompetent, or was deliberately steering the original PJ/LP/Met/NPIA/DCIU investigation the wrong way? I have big admiration for Mr Amaral, however in a sense I agree about the tunnel vision (a tiny example, he locked onto assuming KM opened the window). In my amateur opinion "branching-tunnel vision" is preferable, the investigation being not a single narrow tunnel, but one which branches, mulltiple branches being investigated at once..
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 19, 2014, 10:20:27 PM
Does "deliberate or not" mean you are not sure whether he was incompetent, or deliberately steering the PJ/LP/Met/NPIA/DCIU investigation the wrong way? I have big admiration for Mr Amaral, however in a sense I agree about the tunnel vision (a tiny example, he locked onto assuming KM opened the window). In my amateur opinion "branching-tunnel vision" is preferable, the investigation being not a single narrow tunnel, but one which branches, mulltiple branches being investigated at once..
Tunnel vision, or following the evidence?
Which, btw, SY is now CONFIRMING to be accurate, per Smithman and a deceased Madeleine.
Stories of smelly men sitting on beds and hovering over cots, unkempt and "foreign" yet we have Smithman confirmed, with his short back and sides and immaculately clean appearance.
Andy is either screwing with OUR heads, or screwing with McCann heads.
Hmmmm....which one.....?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 20, 2014, 12:24:03 AM
Which, btw, SY is now CONFIRMING to be accurate, per Smithman and a deceased Madeleine.
Stories of smelly men sitting on beds and hovering over cots, unkempt and "foreign" yet we have Smithman confirmed, with his short back and sides and immaculately clean appearance.
Andy is either screwing with OUR heads, or screwing with McCann heads.
Hmmmm....which one.....?
Bits of it seems to be designed to demolish some of the theories in KM's book. I reckon AR knows the answers already. I suspect he is all but there and is dotting i's and crossing t's. So in answer to your question I would think "not our heads" Well the Macs can always sue him!
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 20, 2014, 08:03:15 AM
The SY investigation which is, bit by bit, confirming his theories?
Now we have confirmation that Madeleine likely died in that apartment that night....just like Amaral said.
There are only two perhaps 9 people in a "mess" and it isnt the ex-CIO!!!!!
You are wrong again...Redwood never used the word "likely"...you have made that up..it makes all your conclusions worthless from a logical point of view...good entertainment though
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: xtina on March 20, 2014, 10:50:13 AM
You are wrong again...Redwood never used the word "likely"...you have made that up..it makes all your conclusions worthless from a logical point of view...good entertainment though
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that she had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.
And if DCI Redwood is now saying that Madeleine may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment, doesn't this shine a different light on the libel trial in Portugal? Which is all about going after Amaral for publishing details which suggested that Madeleine was dead, and therefore this stopped people from searching for her? Isn't this exactly what DCI Redwood is now suggesting is the case?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2014, 11:08:47 AM
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that she had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.
And if DCI Redwood is now saying that Madeleine may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment, doesn't this shine a different light on the libel trial in Portugal? Which is all about going after Amaral for publishing details which suggested that Madeleine was dead, and therefore this stopped people from searching for her? Isn't this exactly what DCI Redwood is now suggesting is the case?
No it isn't....amaral said that Maddie WAS dead and that her parents WERE criminally involved..
Redwood has said that Maddie MAY be dead..
Theres a massive difference but those who are blind won't see it
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 20, 2014, 11:11:25 AM
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that she had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.
And if DCI Redwood is now saying that Madeleine may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment, doesn't this shine a different light on the libel trial in Portugal? Which is all about going after Amaral for publishing details which suggested that Madeleine was dead, and therefore this stopped people from searching for her? Isn't this exactly what DCI Redwood is now suggesting is the case?
IF Madeline is dead, and it is a big IF, then why did Amaral accuse her parents when he obviously knew about this Predator? Or is it okay to get the basic details right while pursuing the wrong persons. Madeleine is dead and we don't care who dunnit as long as we stitch up someone, preferably her parents. And I have a right to say so.
Sadly, that sounds very like the Portuguese Justice of not so old.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 20, 2014, 11:19:19 AM
IF Madeline is dead, and it is a big IF, then why did Amaral accuse her parents when he obviously knew about this Predator? Or is it okay to get the basic details right while pursuing the wrong persons. Madeleine is dead and we don't care who dunnit as long as we stitch up someone, preferably her parents. And I have a right to say so.
Sadly, that sounds very like the Portuguese Justice of not so old.
Where is the evidence that this person was anywhere near PDL on the night in question ?
Or is this more hot air and no more ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on March 20, 2014, 11:20:54 AM
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that she had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.
And if DCI Redwood is now saying that Madeleine may not have been alive when she was taken from the apartment, doesn't this shine a different light on the libel trial in Portugal? Which is all about going after Amaral for publishing details which suggested that Madeleine was dead, and therefore this stopped people from searching for her? Isn't this exactly what DCI Redwood is now suggesting is the case?
If Amaral had suggested that Madeleine died - possibly at the hands of a paedaphile who the PJ knew was targetting and attacking British families in their holiday accommodation (which they did know about) - then you might have a point. However, his thesis does not even come close to what DCI Redwood has said. Amaral blamed the parents - and did not entertain the idea that any crime by an intruder had been committed.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 20, 2014, 11:23:32 AM
If Amaral had suggested that Madeleine died - possibly at the hands of a paedaphile who the PJ knew was targetting and attacking British families in their holiday accommodation (which they did know about) - then you might have a point. However, his thesis does not even come close to what DCI Redwood has said. Amaral blamed the parents - and did not entertain the idea that any crime by an intruder had been committed.
How do you know Redwood is on the right lines ?
The answer of course is you don't.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2014, 11:25:27 AM
Where is the evidence that this person was anywhere near PDL on the night in question ?
Or is this more hot air and no more ?
I expect that The PJ will know the answer to that. But I don't expect them to tell you or me at the moment.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 20, 2014, 11:49:20 AM
Why did yet another TV show have Amaral as a star guest around the time of a Crimewatch appeal for witnesses, in which he continues to repeat his theory and rubbishes the PJ that took over after him. Including the current team that managed to get the case reopened?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 20, 2014, 11:59:05 AM
Why did yet another TV show have Amaral as a star guest around the time of a Crimewatch appeal for witnesses, in which he continues to repeat his theory and rubbishes the PJ that took over after him. Including the current team that managed to get the case reopened?
God knows. They appear to be actively acting against their own beloved Police Force. But that's Free Speach for you.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 20, 2014, 02:38:08 PM
If Amaral had suggested that Madeleine died - possibly at the hands of a paedaphile who the PJ knew was targetting and attacking British families in their holiday accommodation (which they did know about) - then you might have a point. However, his thesis does not even come close to what DCI Redwood has said. Amaral blamed the parents - and did not entertain the idea that any crime by an intruder had been committed.
Actually, he just suggested that she might not have been alive when she left the apartment. I don't think he attributed the death to any individual.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on March 20, 2014, 02:50:36 PM
Actually, he just suggested that she might not have been alive when she left the apartment. I don't think he attributed the death to any individual.
I didn't mean to suggest that he did (sorry my wording could have been clearer). However his heavy hints re calpol - and accidental falls left very little to the imagination IMO. IIRC at no time does he suggest that Madeleine may have died at the hands of an intruder inside the apartment.
Any suggestion that Andy Redwood is now agreeing with Amaral and is similarly 'pointing the finger' at the McCanns is ludicrous IMO.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on March 20, 2014, 11:05:27 PM
I do apologise. There were posts on this thread posted earlier today which should have been removed on sight but I missed them on the first pass, happens sometimes. It is always best to report such posts as they are then automatically brought to the attention of the editors and the moderators. With the best will in the word we can't read everything all of the time.
If it offends >> Report it! TY
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 21, 2014, 02:17:08 PM
It seems to me one important fact has been over-looked and that is the fact that the Portuguese Attorney-General DID decide to-open the case.
What the Oporto PJ picked up during their review of this case nobody outside knows for certain but I put it to you that it must have been something substantial for the PAG to even consider a re-opening.
As it is I cannot see how he would have done it without the backing of the Portuguese Government given the potential political embarrassment and the fact that it went ahead raises the suggestion 'We have our doubts'.
I cannot see either how the current investigation is following a different line of line unless those involved had credible grounds for so doing. Whatever Amaral's credibility is now on the line.
Dr Amaral was removed from the case nine months before the process was archived. The process only lasted 14 months. By the time the process was archived, in terms of the investigation, Dr Amaral was yesterday's man. Why should his credibility now be on the line?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 02:19:38 PM
Dr Amaral was removed from the case nine months before the process was archived. The process only lasted 14 months. By the time the process was archived, in terms of the investigation, Dr Amaral was yesterday's man. Why should his credibility now be on the line?
Because he wrote a book about an ongoing case that is potentially libellous and he failed to carry out a proper investigation causing the OJ to be mocked by the british press
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 21, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
Because he wrote a book about an ongoing case that is potentially libellous and he failed to carry out a proper investigation causing the OJ to be mocked by the british press
Correct me if I am wrong but the book was published after the case was archived. The old libel saw is not relevant to the discussion. The British press and several posters on here continue to mock the Portuguese police nearly seven years after Amaral was removed. What happens to him now has no relevance to the current investigation. He is what he is but the bulk of the original investigation was done without him. Do you seriously believe that after he was given the elbow the PJ did not review his work? He is yesterdays man but some posters keep him bobbing up like a Kelly Doll.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 21, 2014, 02:34:23 PM
Why was the case re-opened if there were NO doubts about his handling of the case and his own' theory'?
As it is Attorney Generals do not review cases never mind re-open them on a mere whim.
Amaral had been given the bums rush nine months before the case was archived. Are you trying to tell me that the case would not have had a full review before archiving? If so tell it to the Marines this Sailor will not believe it.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
I do apologise. There were posts on this thread posted earlier today which should have been removed on sight but I missed them on the first pass, happens sometimes. It is always best to report such posts as they are then automatically brought to the attention of the editors and the moderators. With the best will in the word we can't read everything all of the time.
If it offends >> Report it! TY
Quite disappointed.
A post I made yesterday, the proof of which has been demonstrated countless times, seems to have been removed. I explained my reason for not, yet again, (on that occasion) producing the evidence. I was posting from the library and pushed for time.
I said that Amaral has the habit of putting libellous statements into the mouths of others that others never said.
Here is a classic example (though far from the only one).
The penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's third and final report:
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).
And what Amaral claims Harrison said in his book:
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.
So which is it?
Madeleine definitely dead and her concealed remains in and around Praia da Luz?
Or Madeleine possibly dead, and if dead, her body most likely jettisoned into the sea?
The other classic is Amaral's claim that Prior said, in England, people have been arrested on less evidence than the PJ had against Kate and Gerry.
We can't state definitely that Prior didn't say that, and that he didn't ring the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest.
But if he did, the Moon is made of green cheese, Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy are both real and I am the Queen of Sheba ...
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 03:37:33 PM
The injunction on Amaral's book was lifted because the judges felt it violated Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights, the right to freedom of speech and expression, not because it was deemed not libellous.
As to the delays of the libel trial that has been principally due to the defence.
Can we have facts please not fiction?
This forum would grind to a halt if only facts were allowed 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 03:55:40 PM
The injunction on Amaral's book was lifted because the judges felt it violated Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights, the right to freedom of speech and expression, not because it was deemed not libellous.
As to the delays of the libel trial that has been principally due to the defence.
Can we have facts please not fiction?
That is right.
The dispute over the injunction had nothing to do with libel.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 04:02:07 PM
The judge who seems to have taken a dim view of some of the defence's comments..
Some of them do stretch credibility. A No 2 who claims he never read the book nor watched the documentary. A businessman who didn't read a million+ contract before he signed it Ouch.
What does it matter? The judge will decide in the fullness of time.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 21, 2014, 04:44:57 PM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id344.html
It becomes tedious posting this every few days because no one reads it and as a consequence they make it up as they go along. Like jassi says it will all come out eventually.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 21, 2014, 04:51:01 PM
I thought it was interesting that The Judge wanted to know if each of them were friends of Amaral. Only one of them wasn't, and even he knew Amaral personally.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 04:56:10 PM
It becomes tedious posting this every few days because no one reads it and as a consequence they make it up as they go along. Like jassi says it will all come out eventually.
After having been notified of that decision [to grant the injunction], appeals were filed by:
Gonçalo de Sousa Amaral,
Guerra e Paz, Editores, SA
VC – Valentim de Carvalho – Filmes, Audiovisuais, SA and
TVI – Televisão Independente, SA
All of them based on the right of freedom of expression of thought that is constitutionally consecrated and furthermore the fact that the statements and facts that were published in the book are the mere reproduction of solid data that is part of the investigation that was started at due time, and that said statements and facts are even part of the investigation's archiving dispatch that was signed by a Prosecutor of the Republic.
The dispute over the injunction was about the right of free speech versus the right of citizens (or visitors!) to a good name.
The present dispute is about libel.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 05:04:22 PM
It becomes tedious posting this every few days because no one reads it and as a consequence they make it up as they go along. Like jassi says it will all come out eventually.
I don't claim to understand the Portuguese justice system and I am sure you don't either. First that link you posted contains some glaring errors...
Eddie the dog did not signal cadaver odour...that is stated as a fact and it isn't...confirmed by grime
From what I can see this case was about the book being banned.....it takes a lot to ban a book in a free society and I am not surprised that the ban was overturned.
The present trial is about amongst other things libel..it has not yet been decided if the book is libellous... the hearing you referred to was ex parte...the mccanns were not represented....the important trail is underway , although god knows when it will end. A Portuguese poster close to amaral says these delays are normal and the trial could drag on and on. Then there could be appeals.
The fact remains that all amarals assets are still held by the court...why would that be if he has already won the case?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 21, 2014, 05:26:46 PM
We conclude that the applicants voluntarily decided to limit their right to the intimacy of private life, certainly envisaging higher values like the discovery of their daughter Madeleine's whereabouts, but upon voluntarily limiting that right, they opened the doors for other people to give their opinion about the case, in synchrony with what they were saying, but also possibly in contradiction with their directions, yet always within the bounds of a legitimate and constitutionally consecrated right to opinion and freedom of expression of thought.
We do not see that the right of the book's author, the defendant, can be limited by a right to the reservation of intimacy that suffered voluntary limitations by their holders, the applicants.
In the same way, concerning the applicants' right to image and a good name: upon placing the case in the public square and giving it worldwide notoriety, the applicants opened all doors to all opinions, even those that are adversarial to them.
In any case, we understand that the allegation of facts that are profusely contained in the judicial inquiry and that were even published through an initiative of the Republic's Attorney General’s Office, can in no way be seen as an offence against the right to image and a good name of the subjects in the process.
Finally, concerning the damage to the right to usufruct from the penal process’ guarantees, namely the right to a fair investigation and the right to freedom and safety, we still cannot understand how it is possible for said rights to be offended by the contents of a book that describes facts from the investigation, although it parts from the interpretation that the Public Ministry’s Magistrates made of those facts, yet offering based, solidly built and logical interpretations.
We thus reach a point where it seems to be important to stress the following: the indicative facts that led to the applicants’ constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not valued by the Public Ministry’s Magistrates in order to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen through another prism and with another base, may lead to a different conclusion from that which was attained by those same Magistrates – those are indications that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, but they can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that is legitimate to be published as a literary work, as long as said interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved – and we have written above already why we understand that said interpretation does not offend the applicants’ rights.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 05:28:32 PM
Has it crossed anybody's mind that the judge may have the decision made for her if there were to be any arrests? That wouldn't half wrecked the case for the defence.
I remain mystified that Santos' plea that proceedings be in camera to protect Madeleine lest Madeleine be alive didn't wreck Amaral's defence, and I'm not wholly convinced that it didn't.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 05:29:18 PM
Has it crossed anybody's mind that the judge may have the decision made for her if there were to be any arrests? That wouldn't half wrecked the case for the defence.
Would a judge trying a civil case be influenced by criminal proceedings? That might depend upon how independent the Portuguese judiciary are.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 21, 2014, 05:49:10 PM
We conclude that the applicants voluntarily decided to limit their right to the intimacy of private life, certainly envisaging higher values like the discovery of their daughter Madeleine's whereabouts, but upon voluntarily limiting that right, they opened the doors for other people to give their opinion about the case, in synchrony with what they were saying, but also possibly in contradiction with their directions, yet always within the bounds of a legitimate and constitutionally consecrated right to opinion and freedom of expression of thought.
We do not see that the right of the book's author, the defendant, can be limited by a right to the reservation of intimacy that suffered voluntary limitations by their holders, the applicants.
In the same way, concerning the applicants' right to image and a good name: upon placing the case in the public square and giving it worldwide notoriety, the applicants opened all doors to all opinions, even those that are adversarial to them.
In any case, we understand that the allegation of facts that are profusely contained in the judicial inquiry and that were even published through an initiative of the Republic's Attorney General’s Office, can in no way be seen as an offence against the right to image and a good name of the subjects in the process.
Finally, concerning the damage to the right to usufruct from the penal process’ guarantees, namely the right to a fair investigation and the right to freedom and safety, we still cannot understand how it is possible for said rights to be offended by the contents of a book that describes facts from the investigation, although it parts from the interpretation that the Public Ministry’s Magistrates made of those facts, yet offering based, solidly built and logical interpretations.
We thus reach a point where it seems to be important to stress the following: the indicative facts that led to the applicants’ constitution as arguidos within the inquiry were later on not valued by the Public Ministry’s Magistrates in order to lead to a criminal accusation, but those very same facts, seen through another prism and with another base, may lead to a different conclusion from that which was attained by those same Magistrates – those are indications that were deemed to be insufficient in terms of evidence in a criminal investigation, but they can be appreciated in a different way, in an interpretation that is legitimate to be published as a literary work, as long as said interpretation does not offend any fundamental rights of anyone involved – and we have written above already why we understand that said interpretation does not offend the applicants’ rights.
Confirmation that the dispute over the injunction had nothing to do with libel.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 08:54:09 PM
I said that Amaral has the habit of putting libellous statements into the mouths of others that others never said.
Here is a classic example (though far from the only one).
The penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's third and final report:
I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).
And what Amaral claims Harrison said in his book:
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.
So which is it?
Madeleine definitely dead and her concealed remains in and around Praia da Luz?
Or Madeleine possibly dead, and if dead, her body most likely jettisoned into the sea?
You have to remember that Dr Amaral and Professor Harrison will have discussed the case at length, the formers comments are not limited by what the latter wrote in his Reports.
If what Amaral stated was false then Harrison had every right to challenge it...by the looks of it he didn't.
What does that tell you ferryman?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 09:09:52 PM
You have to remember that Dr Amaral and Professor Harrison will have discussed the case at length, the formers comments are not limited by what the latter wrote in his Reports.
If what Amaral stated was false then Harrison had every right to challenge it...by the looks of it he didn't.
What does that tell you ferryman?
it merely tells us what your opinion is john
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 09:30:36 PM
You have to remember that Dr Amaral and Professor Harrison will have discussed the case at length, the formers comments are not limited by what the latter wrote in his Reports.
If what Amaral stated was false then Harrison had every right to challenge it...by the looks of it he didn't.
What does that tell you ferryman?
Not so much what it tells me as what it directs me to: Harrison's terms of reference.
He was instructed to consider that Madeleine was dead and to try to find her concealed remains.
He even says in his report that it considers, solely, that Madeleine has been murdered and that her concealed remains are somewhere nearby.
He offers to consider other scenarios on request.
Either he was never invited or, if he was invited, we don't read what he wrote on line.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 10:14:16 PM
Has it crossed anybody's mind that the judge may have the decision made for her if there were to be any arrests? That wouldn't half wrecked the case for the defence.
By the same token, what about the announcement by Scotland Yard, following their three year investigation, that they think Madeleine might have died in the apartment ?
Could that be said to be somewhat damaging to case for the prosecution ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 10:17:34 PM
This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed within the areas previously searched by Police in Zone 1 around Praia Da Luz. Other scenarios or possibilities may on request be considered and be subject of a further report.
(Mark Harrison)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: ferryman on March 21, 2014, 10:22:49 PM
Harrison's terms of reference:
Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.
1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains. 2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension. 3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching. 4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided. 5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection. 6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann. 7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
What do we reckon?
Did Harrison write his own terms of reference?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 10:35:34 PM
By the same token, what about the announcement by Scotland Yard, following their three year investigation, that they think Madeleine might have died in the apartment ?
Could that be said to be somewhat damaging to case for the prosecution ?
Surely Mr Redwoods suggestion Madeleine might have died in the apartment is incredibly damaging to the search isn't it?
This is one of the Mets finest saying it, not just some boozy, bungling, lying ex cop.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 21, 2014, 10:37:17 PM
By the same token, what about the announcement by Scotland Yard, following their three year investigation, that they think Madeleine might have died in the apartment ?
Could that be said to be somewhat damaging to case for the prosecution ?
you would have to answer the question...which you can't...what case and what prosecution
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 21, 2014, 10:48:18 PM
you would have to answer the question...which you can't...what case and what prosecution
The McCanns have taken Amaral to court, in part, because he has 'damaged the search' for Madeleine by saying she is dead
If people think Madeleine is dead, the McCanns argue, then they will stop looking for her
So, I was asking whether Scotland Yard's recent announcement ... that they, too, think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... has any impact on the trial
I mean, does that mean Scotland Yard have 'damaged the search' as well ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 11:01:15 PM
The McCanns have taken Amaral to court, in part, because he has 'damaged the search' for Madeleine by saying she is dead
If people think Madeleine is dead, the McCanns argue, then they will stop looking for her
So, I was asking whether Scotland Yard's recent announcement ... that they, too, think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... has any impact on the trial
I mean, does that mean Scotland Yard have 'damaged the search' as well ?
Speaking last night at the end of the first day, Mrs McCann said she was in Portugal to "stop the damage" she believes is being caused to the search for her daughter by Mr Amaral.
"I'm here to stop the damage that has been caused and is still being caused, both directly and indirectly, to the search for our daughter."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-tearful-mum-kate-2271075#ixzz2wdncophh Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 11:04:02 PM
Good point Icabodcrane, I can just see the lawyers scratching their wigs at this very moment at that comment. Stating publicly that she might have died in the apartment will not assist the search. I bet Gonçalo will milk that admission for what its worth this very weekend.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Benice on March 21, 2014, 11:21:51 PM
The McCanns have taken Amaral to court, in part, because he has 'damaged the search' for Madeleine by saying she is dead
If people think Madeleine is dead, the McCanns argue, then they will stop looking for her
So, I was asking whether Scotland Yard's recent announcement ... that they, too, think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... has any impact on the trial
I mean, does that mean Scotland Yard have 'damaged the search' as well ?
AR's statement that there is a possibility Madeleine may have died in the apartment is related to their enquiries regarding an intruder who may have killed her imo. This is made 7 years after Madeleine's disappearance and in the light of their present investigation into the intruder they are hoping to identify. They have not ruled out the other possibilities that she is still alive, or that she was murdered after she was abducted. And they have specifically ruled out the McCanns as suspects.
No way is this latest development comparable to Amaral's claim that Madeleine died in the apartment on the 3rd May as a result of an accident and her body was disposed of by her parents and who has spent years repeating that claim - to the exclusion of any other possibility.
Personally, I don't see how it can have any affect on the case.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 21, 2014, 11:23:54 PM
AR's statement that there is a possibility Madeleine may have died in the apartment is related to their enquiries regarding an intruder who may have killed her imo. This is made 7 years after Madeleine's disappearance and in the light of their present investigation into the intruder they are hoping to identify. They have not ruled out the other possibilities that she is still alive, or that she was murdered after she was abducted. And they have specifically ruled out the McCanns as suspects.
No way is this latest development comparable to Amaral's claim that Madeleine died in the apartment on the 3rd May as a result of an accident and her body was disposed of by her parents and who has spent years repeating that claim - to the exclusion of any other possibility.
Personally, I don't see how it can have any affect on the case.
And the search?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 22, 2014, 01:05:36 AM
The McCanns have taken Amaral to court, in part, because he has 'damaged the search' for Madeleine by saying she is dead
If people think Madeleine is dead, the McCanns argue, then they will stop looking for her
So, I was asking whether Scotland Yard's recent announcement ... that they, too, think that Madeleine may have died in the apartment ... has any impact on the trial
I mean, does that mean Scotland Yard have 'damaged the search' as well ?
Yes, an important point as regards the trial.
While I agree with Benice that DCI Redwood may simply have been alluding to a 'burglar' or other intruder who could have killed her - and we don't know for sure to what he was alluding - either way, if the search for a living Madeleine would be felt by the McCanns to have been hampered, this your point about the trial is sound.
The tentacles of this strange octopus really do flail wildly and seldom in sync.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 22, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
While I agree with Benice that DCI Redwood may simply have been alluding to a 'burglar' or other intruder who could have killed her - and we don't know for sure to what he was alluding - either way, the search for a living Madeleine would be hampered, this your point about the trial is sound.
The tentacles of this strange octopus really do flail wildly and seldom in sync.
Not just a living Madeleine, IMO. Even if she's dead, and Amaral continues to lead people to believe that the parents were responsible, they would be less likely to come forward with any clues as to who may have taken her or where her body might be.
One case (whose details I've forgotten) was solved many years after a disappearance by people (family?) clearing out the house of someone who'd recently deceased. They came across suspicious items which they handed to the police. They could just as easily have chucked the items in a skip along with everything else and some bereaved family would never have had closure.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 22, 2014, 02:00:55 PM
Not just a living Madeleine, IMO. Even if she's dead, and Amaral continues to lead people to believe that the parents were responsible, they would be less likely to come forward with any clues as to who may have taken her or where her body might be.
I agree with you on this very much, Carana. However it is not exactly what the McCanns are arguing in court.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 22, 2014, 05:57:57 PM
I agree with you on this very much, Carana. However it is not exactly what the McCanns are arguing in court.
The Court Case is about much more than just the search. Besides, I expect that even the sceptics would want a body found if Madeleine is dead. In fact that is what they want more than anything else.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 08:22:29 AM
The Court Case is about much more than just the search. Besides, I expect that even the sceptics would want a body found if Madeleine is dead. In fact that is what they want more than anything else.
In the event of a death, it is always helpful to have a body - it sort of tidies things up and helps to draw a conclusion to events.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 08:30:41 AM
In the event of a death, it is always helpful to have a body - it sort of tidies things up and helps to draw a conclusion to events.
This could depend on the reaction to such an event.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: jassi on March 23, 2014, 08:40:31 AM
I would have thought that the discovery of a body would bring a feeling of relief to most people, even if some might have their hopes dashed.
I'm sure that the family of Claudia, the missing woman from York would desperately wish her to be alive, but if her body was found, they would at least be able to move on from their present position.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 08:50:36 AM
I would have thought that the discovery of a body would bring a feeling of relief to most people, even if some might have their hopes dashed.
I'm sure that the family of Claudia, the missing woman from York would desperately wish her to be alive, but if her body was found, they would at least be able to move on from their present position.
Sometimes Hope can be best.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Cariad on March 23, 2014, 08:52:14 AM
I would have thought that the discovery of a body would bring a feeling of relief to most people, even if some might have their hopes dashed.
I'm sure that the family of Claudia, the missing woman from York would desperately wish her to be alive, but if her body was found, they would at least be able to move on from their present position.
Precisely.
I'm an atheist, yet even I see the respectful disposal of a persons last remains as important and having somewhere to visit can help with grief.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: xtina on March 23, 2014, 08:52:54 AM
no wonder G.A....regrets using the Birmingham lab...
still very vocal IMO ...because h has nothing to hide
As to DNA evidence that was discovered in the McCanns’ rental car, Amaral was adamant that this could have been more thoroughly tested. While initial findings on blood were deemed inconclusive, Amaral explains hair samples were simply not followed up as British lab technicians claimed it was impossible to test hair samples without roots. “It is possible, and even at the time it was possible!” Amaral insisted. “These hair samples are in Portugal! They were returned in Portugal and they are in the files. It’s simple! All the public ministry has to do is take the hairs and send them to a European laboratory, or anywhere where these kinds of exams are done without roots.”
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-latest-raising-yet-more-questions#sthash.fPRJAiFt.dpuf
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 09:02:48 AM
no wonder G.A....regrets using the Birmingham lab...
still very vocal IMO ...because h has nothing to hide
As to DNA evidence that was discovered in the McCanns’ rental car, Amaral was adamant that this could have been more thoroughly tested. While initial findings on blood were deemed inconclusive, Amaral explains hair samples were simply not followed up as British lab technicians claimed it was impossible to test hair samples without roots. “It is possible, and even at the time it was possible!” Amaral insisted. “These hair samples are in Portugal! They were returned in Portugal and they are in the files. It’s simple! All the public ministry has to do is take the hairs and send them to a European laboratory, or anywhere where these kinds of exams are done without roots.”
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-latest-raising-yet-more-questions#sthash.fPRJAiFt.dpuf
Oh Goody. So we can expect The PJ to do this soon, can we?
By the way, there cannot have been any CUT hairs of Madeleine in the car. But Sean did have a haircut around that time. And we all know how difficult it is to get rid of those.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 23, 2014, 09:33:00 AM
I would have thought that the discovery of a body would bring a feeling of relief to most people, even if some might have their hopes dashed.
I'm sure that the family of Claudia, the missing woman from York would desperately wish her to be alive, but if her body was found, they would at least be able to move on from their present position.
I agree with that. Even if your worst fears turn out to be true, at least you know.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Eleanor on March 23, 2014, 09:48:23 AM
no wonder G.A....regrets using the Birmingham lab...
still very vocal IMO ...because h has nothing to hide
As to DNA evidence that was discovered in the McCanns’ rental car, Amaral was adamant that this could have been more thoroughly tested. While initial findings on blood were deemed inconclusive, Amaral explains hair samples were simply not followed up as British lab technicians claimed it was impossible to test hair samples without roots. “It is possible, and even at the time it was possible!” Amaral insisted. “These hair samples are in Portugal! They were returned in Portugal and they are in the files. It’s simple! All the public ministry has to do is take the hairs and send them to a European laboratory, or anywhere where these kinds of exams are done without roots.”
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-latest-raising-yet-more-questions#sthash.fPRJAiFt.dpuf
Erm. DNA was never his forte... Research into extracting nuclear DNA from hair shafts appears to be technically possible in some circumstances (albeit with a relatively low success rate), and research is advancing in that direction. Whether or not the techniques are now sufficiently mainstream commercialised routine tests remains to be seen (I haven't found anything to that effect - only that it is possible).
Even if certain specialised services can do so, it is likely to be very expensive. One or more of her hair fragments could have been in the car by virtue of the fact of simply moving family belongings in the car (clothing, toys, anything). What would be the point in spending limited funds to prove that even one of the many hair fragments in the car boot belonged to Madeleine?
I'd be more interested in the hairs in the apartment. But some of those seem to have disappeared somewhere between when the PT forensic team took photos and when the envelope arrived at the lab *.
Even then it would probably only be done if there was a specific suspect.
Reference: Challenges in DNA Testing and Forensic Analysis of Hair Samples Tue, 04/02/2013 - 8:42am
no wonder G.A....regrets using the Birmingham lab...
still very vocal IMO ...because h has nothing to hide
As to DNA evidence that was discovered in the McCanns’ rental car, Amaral was adamant that this could have been more thoroughly tested. While initial findings on blood were deemed inconclusive, Amaral explains hair samples were simply not followed up as British lab technicians claimed it was impossible to test hair samples without roots. “It is possible, and even at the time it was possible!” Amaral insisted. “These hair samples are in Portugal! They were returned in Portugal and they are in the files. It’s simple! All the public ministry has to do is take the hairs and send them to a European laboratory, or anywhere where these kinds of exams are done without roots.”
- See more at: http://portugalresident.com/madeleine-latest-raising-yet-more-questions#sthash.fPRJAiFt.dpuf
What indicates that the FSS had the means to test hair shafts for nuclear DNA back then? Where are such tests done even now in Europe? They might be as forensic science continues to advance, but I haven't found anything to that effect so far.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2014, 10:03:38 AM
What next Carana? That the FFS was also involved in the alleged UK Government cover-up?
It would seem so, at least in Amaral's mind. From his latest TV appearance just prior to Crimewatch: “We have no doubts, and this was discussed even at the level of Portuguese justice, at the level of the Public Ministry, that there was an alteration at the English lab. The data was manipulated. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post287115.html?sid=9c467a92105129ddaa3bed94bd77a89f#p287115
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 10:10:18 AM
It would seem so, at least in Amaral's mind. From his latest TV appearance just prior to Crimewatch: “We have no doubts, and this was discussed even at the level of Portuguese justice, at the level of the Public Ministry, that there was an alteration at the English lab. The data was manipulated. http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post287115.html?sid=9c467a92105129ddaa3bed94bd77a89f#p287115
Could that be why the FSS was killed off? (sos about de pun)
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2014, 10:25:26 AM
Could that be why the FSS was killed off? (sos about de pun)
No doubt, John. Amaral's somewhat original understanding of the DNA results and thus his conviction that they were manipulated clearly led to the closure of FSS.
He may still be working on why the UK didn't demand that the US government hand over satellite images of Gerry carrying his daughter down to the beach...
ETA: As someone took this post at face-value, I should clarify that it was tongue-in-cheek. 8()-000(
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2014, 11:07:12 AM
FSS like other forensic units was closed down because of government problems with money not because they have been involved in any judicial shenanigans. The whole forensic community was up in arms about the cutbacks at the time so to suggest that FSS was closed down because of this case is a very large red herring and an insult to the people worked there.
And what's this about the UK Government not asking for satellite pictures of PDL on 3rd May 2007? What's wrong with the Portuguese Government asking instead.? And what picture of Gerry carrying his daughter to the beach? Would there be one?
And finally have you any substantiation to back the above-mention allegations?
According to Amaral, he is the lone hero and everyone else is wrong. Whatever the topic is. I should no doubt have inserted an appropriate smiley, but I didn't find an adequate one. Maybe this one will do? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 26, 2014, 11:26:09 AM
According to Amaral, he is the lone hero and everyone else is wrong. Whatever the topic is. I should no doubt have inserted an appropriate smiley, but I didn't find an adequate one. Maybe this one will do? 8(0(*
By the same note, mccann supporters believe the mccanns 'walk on water' and everyone who doubts their story has got it wrong.
Deja vu, or what ?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Estuarine on March 26, 2014, 11:18:43 PM
Six hours til dawn. The trolling hour when you all turn to stone. But you will not be in peace because no stone will remain unturned. 8(>((
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 26, 2014, 11:49:49 PM
Mr Amaral treated the UK dog signals in the apartment as intelligence. If SY examine the killed by burglar hypothesis (which BTW I do not think is correct), will SY consider Eddie's signals behind sofa, near/in wardrobe, and near climbing plant, as possible intelligence in that new context?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: icabodcrane on March 27, 2014, 12:01:50 AM
Mr Amaral treated the UK dog signals in the apartment as intelligence. If SY examine the killed by burglar hypothesis (which BTW I do not think is correct), will SY consider Eddie's signals behind sofa, near/in wardrobe, and near climbing plant, as possible intelligence in that new context?
Well they can't, can they ? ... not unless they presume the intruder killed Madeleine then waited for at least an hour and a half to remove her dead body ( the minimum time it would have taken for the scent of death to have been detectable to the dog trained to sniff it )
Not only that, Scotland Yard would have to presume that the McCanns had lied about their checking regime that night ... because if the scent of death was detectable to the dog, then Madeleine would have already been dead when Gerry had his 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm
So no, there is no way Scotland Yard can reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with a scenario where Madeleine was killed by an intruder
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 27, 2014, 12:26:05 AM
Mr Amaral treated the UK dog signals in the apartment as intelligence. If SY examine the killed by burglar hypothesis (which BTW I do not think is correct), will SY consider Eddie's signals behind sofa, near/in wardrobe, and near climbing plant, as possible intelligence in that new context?
What do you actually think happened? That Madeleine left on her own?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 07:58:22 AM
Well they can't, can they ? ... not unless they presume the intruder killed Madeleine then waited for at least an hour and a half to remove her dead body ( the minimum time it would have taken for the scent of death to have been detectable to the dog trained to sniff it )
Not only that, Scotland Yard would have to presume that the McCanns had lied about their checking regime that night ... because if the scent of death was detectable to the dog, then Madeleine would have already been dead when Gerry had his 'proud father' moment at 9.10pm
So no, there is no way Scotland Yard can reconcile the cadaver dog alerts with a scenario where Madeleine was killed by an intruder
The death scent is not confirmed...fact...amaral got it wrong...fact
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 27, 2014, 08:02:01 AM
The death scent is not confirmed...fact...amaral got it wrong...fact
It's common sense really, back in August 2007 just a few months after Maddie disappeared nobody in their right mind was going to declare her dead...just in case she wasn't. Just imagine what would have happened if Grime had declared that Eddie had found the death scent in 5a and Maddie was found alive and well? A proper career stopper!
Amaral took a risk in declaring what he did and look where he is now.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Angelo222 on March 27, 2014, 08:52:25 AM
It's common sense really, back in August 2007 just a few months after Maddie disappeared nobody in their right mind was going to declare her dead...just in case she wasn't. Just imagine what would have happened if Grime had declared that Eddie had found the death scent in 5a and Maddie was found alive and well? A proper career stopper!
Amaral took a risk in declaring what he did and look where he is now.
what you are stating is opinion angelo...making excuses for grime..i agree that SY are Maddies only hope and the reason they are involved is because of the efforts of her parents
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: stephen25000 on March 27, 2014, 09:05:02 AM
what you are stating is opinion angelo...making excuses for grime..i agree that SY are Maddies only hope and the reason they are involved is because of the efforts of her parents
Let's get things right davel.
The reason for Madeleine's predicament originates in their leaving of three children in what they claim was an unlocked apartment.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 27, 2014, 10:26:06 AM
FSS like other forensic units was closed down because of government problems with money not because they have been involved in any judicial shenanigans. The whole forensic community was up in arms about the cutbacks at the time so to suggest that FSS was closed down because of this case is a very large red herring and an insult to the people worked there.
And what's this about the UK Government not asking for satellite pictures of PDL on 3rd May 2007? What's wrong with the Portuguese Government asking instead.? And what picture of Gerry carrying his daughter to the beach? Would there be one?
And finally have you any substantiation to back the above-mention allegations?
John made a tongue-in-cheek remark and I responded likewise.
- On the FSS: I'm aware that the FSS shut down due to financial issues. However, in view of the bizarre conspiracies in the PT tabloids over the years, it wouldn't surprise me at all if hinting at a different reason will not somehow be attributed directly or indirectly to the McCanns. It is, after all, only one step further than Amaral insisting that the FSS results had been tampered with, presumably because he didn't understand what Lowe was trying to explain, even though Corte-Real agreed with Lowe and had also tried to explain it in Amaral's own film... a point which seems to be studiously ignored.
- On Amaral and satellites, there is a thread on this: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1192.0
ETA: To be fair to Amaral, the origin of the PJ asking the UK to contact the US seems to have originated with Jim Murray, quoting a "senior source within the PJ", on which Amaral later commented.
no...you are blaming the victim not the criminal...again
Will you accept Dave that had the McCanns observed basic practice and had their children properly supervised that evening that Madeleine would not have disappeared?
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: Carana on March 27, 2014, 01:34:51 PM
May I point out that the worst nightmare of any CSI team or those involved in gathering forensic evidence is contamination thereof. So if there were contamination at which end did it happen?
Where to start? Contamination of what evidence?
To start with:
The original PT team checked for evidence in the path of the obvious exits and the childrens' bedroom. Did they check anywhere else? Parents' bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, other windows?
What happened to the missing hairs that they found on the bed according to PJ photos on 4 May and which weren't recorded in the PT lab's receipts? Where did they disappear to? They just seem to have disappeared... unless anyone can show me which reports from the files would indicate otherwise.
Title: Re: Was Gonçalo Amaral fair game given the content of his book?
Post by: pegasus on March 27, 2014, 02:48:30 PM
.... Just imagine what would have happened if Grime had declared that Eddie had found the death scent in 5a and Maddie was found alive and well? A proper career stopper! ...
IIRC Mr Grime stated on video on 31st July 2007 that Eddie had found that scent.