Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on February 05, 2014, 12:39:38 PM
Title: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: John on February 05, 2014, 12:39:38 PM
On the second day of the arguido interviews, Sky News reporter Martin Brunt reported that Gerry McCann's sister Philomena had told him that she expected Kate to be charged that day with the accidental death of her daughter Madeleine. He added that Kate's lawyer had suggested to her that she could be charged later that day.
So what happened that day to change their mind?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq5UcyQ_NfE&sns=tw
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 05, 2014, 01:08:31 PM
Kate McCann, Daily Mirror 9th September 2007
"Police don't want a murder in Portugal and all the publicity about them not having paedophile laws here, so they're blaming us."
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 01:14:52 PM
On the second day of the arguido interviews, Sky News reporter Martin Brunt reported that Gerry McCann's sister Philomena had told him that she expected Kate to be charged that day with the accidental death of her daughter Madeleine. He added that Kate's lawyer had suggested to her that she could be charged later that day.
So what happened that day to change their mind?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq5UcyQ_NfE&sns=tw
It was deliberate strategy to rally the troops back home. Same with the simultaneous leaking of the hire care theory (if it ever actually was a theory).
(They never believed it).
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 02:24:36 PM
On the second day of the arguido interviews, Sky News reporter Martin Brunt reported that Gerry McCann's sister Philomena had told him that she expected Kate to be charged that day with the accidental death of her daughter Madeleine. He added that Kate's lawyer had suggested to her that she could be charged later that day.
So what happened that day to change their mind?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq5UcyQ_NfE&sns=tw
From 39 seconds, regarding KM's lawyer's advice that she may be charged: 'We can only imagine that that is based on evidence that has emerged in that questioning of Kate McCann'
Obviously there was no 'evidence' that arose from that questioning.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 05, 2014, 02:26:47 PM
On the second day of the arguido interviews, Sky News reporter Martin Brunt reported that Gerry McCann's sister Philomena had told him that she expected Kate to be charged that day with the accidental death of her daughter Madeleine. He added that Kate's lawyer had suggested to her that she could be charged later that day.
So what happened that day to change their mind?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq5UcyQ_NfE&sns=tw
I think you are mistaken to rely on third hand statements if you want to get to the truth...simple as that
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 02:35:35 PM
I think you are mistaken to rely on third hand statements if you want to get to the truth...simple as that
It does seem odd that the lawyer, having been present with Kate during questioning for two entire days - as reported by M Brunt - would on the second day advise Katee that she may be charged. The lawyer would have witnessed during those conversations that there was nothing of substance on which to charge her and would presumably have defended Kate accordingly.
And indeed if the lawyer did advise her that she was likely to be charged, he was obviously wrong.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: VIXTE on February 05, 2014, 02:38:56 PM
The main thing is she wasn't charged as there was no evidence of Madeleine being dead.
Even recently the SY, after fully reviewing the case announced that Madeleine could still be alive.
To me that suggest that there was no even the slightest evidence to charge Kate with confidential death of Madeleine.
If there was a slightest evidence I believe the PJ would have used it..
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 05, 2014, 02:39:29 PM
It does seem odd that the lawyer, having been present with Kate during questioning for two entire days - as reported by M Brunt - would on the second day advise Katee that she may be charged. The lawyer would have witnessed during those conversations that there was nothing of substance on which to charge her and would presumably have defended Kate accordingly.
And indeed if the lawyer did advise her that she was likely to be charged, he was obviously wrong.
we don't know what kate said to her sister..its as simple as that..its perfectly possible that kates sister misunderstood exactly what kate said
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 02:40:05 PM
Do you mean she was never going to be arrested and it was all spin ?
not at all...kate may have said.....I could be arrested this afternoon....and this was misunderstood by her sister..posters don't seem willing to accept that one person says something and another infers something else...happens all the time
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 02:46:29 PM
not at all...kate may have said.....I could be arrested this afternoon....and this was misunderstood by her sister..posters don't seem willing to accept that one person says something and another infers something else...happens all the time
Also, M Brunt said that Philomena McCann had told the BBC that Kate was going to be charged.
This could have been misunderstood (or 'misunderstood') by whomever Philomena McCann reported this to. PM may not have meant that at all.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 02:54:33 PM
They had circumstantial but no concrete evidence to charge anyone so they played it safe IMO
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 02:57:22 PM
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: icabodcrane on February 05, 2014, 03:01:40 PM
It is odd that Philomena McCann said that the family expected Kate to be charged with Madeleine's 'accidental death ( Brunt emphasises 'accidendal death' reiterating that is would not be a 'murder' charge )
Yet, in her book, Kate says that her lawyer told her that if she admitted to Madeleine's accidental death then a lesser sentence would be imposed ( averting a murder charge which would carry a much heavier sentence )
Kate says that in response to the suggestion she was horrified, and told her lawyer so in no uncertain terms
So it appears that there never was a possibility that Kate would be 'charged with Madeleine's accidental death' ... not unless she said that is what had happened
At that point, by Kate's own admission, it was a murder charge that the police were considering
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 03:02:27 PM
Even the silent seven spoke that day.
There was no misunderstanding of the coordinated message, SH.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 05, 2014, 03:05:57 PM
Perhaps Kate was lying
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 03:07:04 PM
The number of times the TV reporters (Brunty included) stressed that police had told them nothing that day or previous days: it was all coming from TM.
(Of course most of the newspaper articles didn't say that).
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 03:21:26 PM
It does seem odd that the lawyer, having been present with Kate during questioning for two entire days - as reported by M Brunt - would on the second day advise Katee that she may be charged. The lawyer would have witnessed during those conversations that there was nothing of substance on which to charge her and would presumably have defended Kate accordingly.
And indeed if the lawyer did advise her that she was likely to be charged, he was obviously wrong.
Not necessarily. Judging from Kate's book, he may have been led to believe that the PJ had substantial evidence against her. It's not clear whether he was informed about exactly what that evidence was supposed to have been. If he had been shown the dog videos (as the McCanns were), dogs barking might have been enough for him to have had doubts and to be more or less convinced to get Kate to admit to a lesser charge. It's not clear whether he was able to see the results of the DNA tests, nor whether he would have understood them even if he had.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
But why would TM want to say she was going to be charged when this was probably not correct?
What benefit to Kate McCann to cook up a story like this?
To generate massive publicity to accompany and excuse them leaving Portugal two days later?
To generate pressure for the police? Diplomatic or legal, or both. She writes in her book that the lawyers got involved that weekend (RO just happened to find them, she says) but can it be believed they weren't also involved during the previous days?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2014, 03:45:12 PM
But why would TM want to say she was going to be charged when this was probably not correct?
What benefit to Kate McCann to cook up a story like this?
At the time, they thought that they were going to be stitched up. At that scary time, there was nothing to say that they wouldn't have been charged and remanded on the basis of a dog woofing.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 03:47:13 PM
Or just used her as rent a gob Wouldnt be the first time
Then again when Philomena told untruths on tv, just a day or two after, ie that it took the PJ five hours to get there for example,not sure if she was embelleshing the facts or if the mccanns told her they were the facts
Another example was "they had a clear line of sight of the children"
At the time, they thought that they were going to be stitched up. At that scary time, there was nothing to say that they wouldn't have been charged and remanded on the basis of a dog woofing.
Nothing except the fact it isn't evidence used in trials in Portugal.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 03:52:18 PM
To generate massive publicity to accompany and excuse them leaving Portugal two days later?
To generate pressure for the police? Diplomatic or legal, or both. She writes in her book that the lawyers got involved that weekend (RO just happened to find them, she says) but can it be believed they weren't also involved during the previous days?
The idea that they were bringing, voluntarily, bad publicity upon themselves - to the tune of harming their own daughter - is just not believable IMO. Too risky; too contradictory. Just doesn't make sense.
A plea bargain perhaps - as Carana suggests.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 03:52:21 PM
The idea that they were bringing, voluntarily, bad publicity upon themselves - to the tune of harming their own daughter - is just not believable IMO. Too risky; too contradictory. Just doesn't make sense.
A plea bargain perhaps - as Carana suggests.
It happened. The only people speaking that day were TM. Voluntarily.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 03:57:40 PM
Nothing except the fact it isn't evidence used in trials in Portugal.
Hadn't been, but such dogs hadn't been used before.
The long conversation with the lawyer, in which she was apparently advised to admit to a lesser charge, took place on the evening after her witness interview and the arguido interview the next day.
If you know you're innocent in a foreign country and suspect that you may be held on remand on visually impressive non-evidence after months of half-truth leaks from the police, what would you have done?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 04:14:55 PM
Hadn't been, but such dogs hadn't been used before.
The long conversation with the lawyer, in which she was apparently advised to admit to a lesser charge, took place on the evening after her witness interview and the arguido interview the next day. If you know you're innocent in a foreign country and suspect that you may be held on remand on visually impressive non-evidence after months of half-truth leaks from the police, what would you have done?
Pretty much the same as if you weren't innocent, I would think.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 04:17:35 PM
I understand what you're getting at. Just too cynical for me, I'm afraid, when there are far more simple explanations that work.
Like your website, by the way, Lyall. Cynical a bit, but very nicely done.
Cheers 8((()*/
This is from Panorama in 2007, SH.
RICHARD BILTON: Kate McCann is at the station for 13 hours, but from inside she and Trish text out updates. Even at this point the message is being controlled.
McGUINNESS: We were a bit naughty because we did have messages coming out of the police station which we weren't supposed to...
BILTON: How did that work.. what, the text messages?
McGUINNESS: Yeah.
BILTON: And were the texts saying? Talk us through.
McGUINNESS: Sort of updates from things that were happening.
[Video: public statement to press] I'd like to read a statement on Kate's arrival at the police station....
Knowing everybody had copy to write, had the 10 o'clock news like you did, or whatever, various different deadlines that they had. I felt that it was important just to manage people's expectations.
McGuiness is a professional (and by September so were other members of TM). They don't give the media sound bites they know will be broadcast all day (and used in articles all over the world) accidentally.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 04:23:25 PM
At the time, they thought that they were going to be stitched up. At that scary time, there was nothing to say that they wouldn't have been charged and remanded on the basis of a dog woofing.
Ah true colours, oh well
Bout time though you showed your contempt honestly, well done though
8@??)(
8)--))
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 04:25:56 PM
Hadn't been, but such dogs hadn't been used before.
The long conversation with the lawyer, in which she was apparently advised to admit to a lesser charge, took place on the evening after her witness interview and the arguido interview the next day.
If you know you're innocent in a foreign country and suspect that you may be held on remand on visually impressive non-evidence after months of half-truth leaks from the police, what would you have done?
Does the lawyer confirm that story?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 04:27:48 PM
The idea that they were bringing, voluntarily, bad publicity upon themselves - to the tune of harming their own daughter - is just not believable IMO. Too risky; too contradictory. Just doesn't make sense.
A plea bargain perhaps - as Carana suggests.
SH, plea bargan does not exist in inquisatorial systems, I think its a made up story
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 04:32:41 PM
RICHARD BILTON: Kate McCann is at the station for 13 hours, but from inside she and Trish text out updates. Even at this point the message is being controlled.
McGUINNESS: We were a bit naughty because we did have messages coming out of the police station which we weren't supposed to...
BILTON: How did that work.. what, the text messages?
McGUINNESS: Yeah.
BILTON: And were the texts saying? Talk us through.
McGUINNESS: Sort of updates from things that were happening.
[Video: public statement to press] I'd like to read a statement on Kate's arrival at the police station....
Knowing everybody had copy to write, had the 10 o'clock news like you did, or whatever, various different deadlines that they had. I felt that it was important just to manage people's expectations.
McGuiness is a professional (and by September so were other members of TM). They don't give the media sound bites they know will be broadcast all day (and used in articles all over the world) accidentally.
There's absolutely no denying the spin. But there's a difference between spin and what the spin is spun from.
The substance of the matter is that there is and was no material evidence to support the claim that Kate McCann was guilty of homicide, accidental or otherwise.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 05, 2014, 04:34:05 PM
There's absolutely no denying the spin. But there's a difference between spin and what the spin is spun from.
The substance of the matter is that there is and was no material evidence to support the claim that Kate McCann was guilty of homicide, accidental or otherwise.
That, together with the fact that no attempt was made to prevent the McCanns from leaving Portugal suggests, to me, that there was never any intention of arresting either of them.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 04:40:31 PM
There's absolutely no denying the spin. But there's a difference between spin and what the spin is spun from.
The substance of the matter is that there is and was no material evidence to support the claim that Kate McCann was guilty of homicide, accidental or otherwise.
But why were they spinning that day? Why whip TV and press into a frenzy? There's absolutely no doubt that is exactly what they deliberately did.
They created their own myths that week, which persist until this day.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 04:41:28 PM
That, together with the fact that no attempt was made to prevent the McCanns from leaving Portugal suggests, to me, that there was never any intention of arresting either of them.
8((()*/
They let them keep the car too.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 04:44:33 PM
That, together with the fact that no attempt was made to prevent the McCanns from leaving Portugal suggests, to me, that there was never any intention of arresting either of them.
I don't think there is any denying threats were made...they thought the mccanns were guilty but they had no evidence...they were hoping pressure would make them crack
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 04:49:00 PM
I don't think there is any denying threats were made...they thought the mccanns were guilty but they had no evidence...they were hoping pressure would make them crack
They're not alone in that thought.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 04:51:56 PM
I don't think there is any denying threats were made...they thought the mccanns were guilty but they had no evidence...they were hoping pressure would make them crack
It's not true to say they had no evidence. Not sufficient evidence clearly, but there is suggestive evidence.
Does their lawyer confirm K McCann's story about the offer?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Eleanor on February 05, 2014, 04:53:11 PM
I simply do not understand how anyone could still think that The McCanns are guilty.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 04:54:49 PM
I simply do not understand how anyone could still think that The McCanns are guilty.
Because they didn't just spin in September. They did right from the start. That doesn't necessarily mean they know what happened to Madeleine, but it is suggestive and it is evidence of lack of candour at least.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:06:45 PM
But why were they spinning that day? Why whip TV and press into a frenzy? There's absolutely no doubt that is exactly what they deliberately did.
They created their own myths that week, which persist until this day.
I think the PR people are spinning because that's what they do. Wind them up and that's how they go. There's not much real thought going into it.
It's not really reputation management because there is no long-term strategy. It's more about crisis management.
Again, we have to try to separate the different layers of facts. It is a fact that there was, and is, a great deal of spin. But unless you are a nihilist, there is also the 'truth' that is buried beneath. We're only looking at the spin here - and that's exactly what the spinners want us to do. Suspend critical thinking.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Eleanor on February 05, 2014, 05:08:29 PM
It wasn't a Plea Bargain as such. Just a suggestion The PJ hoped Kate would take. But it would have told me that they had nothing.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 05:10:13 PM
I think the PR people are spinning because that's what they do. Wind them up and that's how they go. There's not much real thought going into it.
It's not really reputation management because there is no long-term strategy. It's more about crisis management.
Again, we have to try to separate the different layers of facts. It is a fact that there was, and is, a great deal of spin. But unless you are a nihilist, there is also the 'truth' that is buried beneath. We're only looking at the spin here - and that's exactly what the spinners want us to do. Suspend critical thinking.
8((()*/ Shift that crisis management in September back to May and you understand why people were so suspicious in 2007.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 05:11:29 PM
So what's the idea that Kate would accept a lesser charge? Isn't that a plea bargain?
Officially, that's not an option in PT.
However, if the police had had a loooongggg chat with your lawyer and persuaded him to advise that you might be better off admitting that your child had died of an accident and you'd concealed the body to avoid a potentially murder conviction in a foreign country, and your hubby could go home with your two remaining children... and you'd get off with a fine (according to AnneG) or a short sentence, what would you call that?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Eleanor on February 05, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
There's simply no evidence for it whatsoever, is there?
If Scotland Yard and the PJ find something to suggest abduction, what y'all gonna say then?!
No evidence that I've ever been able to find. Quite the opposite in fact.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2014, 05:15:36 PM
If she had caved in to pressure, as some may do in worse interrogation circumstances, it wouldn't have worked anyway. Could she have acted alone? If not, who else was involved? Where was the body? Gerry would never have been free to go home to carry on the search for Madeleine or to get Kate out of jail. That seems silly. By that time, they may well have been aware of Joana's unexplained disappearance and what happened to her mother and uncle (irrespective of whether one or both of those were guilty in that case or not).
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 05:16:24 PM
However, if the police had had a loooongggg chat with your lawyer and persuaded him to advise that you might be better off admitting that your child had died of an accident and you'd concealed the body to avoid a potentially murder conviction in a foreign country, and your hubby could go home with your two remaining children... and you'd get off with a fine (according to AnneG) or a short sentence, what would you call that?
Does their lawyer confirm that story?
I'm turning into Jeremy Paxman 8)-)))
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:16:50 PM
There's simply no evidence for it whatsoever, is there?
If Scotland Yard and the PJ find something to suggest abduction, what y'all gonna say then?!
A problem is that the "scientific police" didn't check the entire apartment, as far as I can tell and lost the trace of hairs from her bed. They quickly checked the route of a possible abductor (more or less), but not the parents' bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, wardrobes, etc.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2014, 05:31:14 PM
The lawyer hasn't denied it and if the account had been distorted, he could potentially have sued for criminal libel. As far as I'm aware, he hasn't. Doesn't he still represent one or the other of them?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 05:33:36 PM
The lawyer hasn't denied it and if the account had been distorted, he could potentially have sued for criminal libel. As I'm aware, he hasn't. Doesn't he still represent one or the other of them?
I think so. I'm sure he'll speak one day. Maybe even write a book 8)-)))
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 05:37:11 PM
I think something rather stronger than 'suggest' is required. How about irrefutable evidence?
Aside from neighbours, helpfully having a ciggie on a balcony with smartphones set on camera mode capturing images of someone stuffing a young blonde child who could be positively identified as being her to the exclusion of any other into the boot of a car and had taken down the description of the car and the license plate, complete with cctv images to corroborate, and who could not possibly be connected to anyone the T9 would have known... What would you consider to be irrefutable evidence?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:42:30 PM
Sorry, but how is leaving your three babies on their own and one disappearing become an international problem rather than a plainly personal one?
By all accounts it became an international problem, because of the media presence, because of the diplomatic situation between Britain and Portugal. Even without the spin from TM, this would still have been a much bigger story than a child going missing while the parents dined..
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:45:27 PM
There's simply no evidence for it whatsoever, is there?
If Scotland Yard and the PJ find something to suggest abduction, what y'all gonna say then?!
Oooh
ya all?
Dont worry, they never will come up with anything anyway.....IMO....most leads were already checked back in 2007
Then again depends how long you want to give them, 3 yrs nearly now, so not enough, another 3? There has to to be a deadlock sooner, or a breakthrough, you never know
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:46:56 PM
Dont worry, they never will come up with anything anyway.....IMO....most leads were already checked back in 2007
Then again depends how long you want to give them, 3 yrs nearly now, so not enough, another 3? There has to to be a deadlock sooner, or a breakthrough, you never know
Thought that was a nice folksy way of putting it, Red.
On my way to Texas next month so just practising.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 05:49:20 PM
And by the way, Red, what are you going to say if SY build a real case for abduction?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 05:50:33 PM
And by the way, Red, what are you going to say if SY build a real case for abduction?
id be glad someones put a stop to the circus of course, thats IF they do and build a real case, and it will be very easy to see if it is or isnt, ie a real case...but Im not holding my breath at all
Ps yall wasnt a reference to americanisms but to your throwing out a challenge.....to yall on the forum as if yall are part of the was definitely not an abduction BORG
@)(++(*
What will yall think if sy build a case against he parents and or any other tapas group member?
See. Its swings and roundabouts as we say in the UK
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 06:00:52 PM
id be glad someones put a stop to the circus of course, thats IF they do and build a real case, and it will be very easy to see if it is or isnt, ie a real case...but Im not holding my breath at all
Ps yall wasnt a reference to americanisms but to your throwing out a challenge.....to yall on the forum as if yall are part of the was definitely not an abduction BORG
@)(++(*
What will yall think if sy build a case against he parents and or any other tapas group member?
See. Its swings and roundabouts as we say in the UK
Yes, understood! It was a challenge!
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 06:03:36 PM
id be glad someones put a stop to the circus of course, thats IF they do and build a real case, and it will be very easy to see if it is or isnt, ie a real case...but Im not holding my breath at all
Ps yall wasnt a reference to americanisms but to your throwing out a challenge.....to yall on the forum as if yall are part of the was definitely not an abduction BORG
@)(++(*
What will yall think if sy build a case against he parents and or any other tapas group member?
See. Its swings and roundabouts as we say in the UK
That's going to take a lot more than six years and ten million pounds....
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 06:03:58 PM
1 If it is proved incontrovertibly then I and the Portuguese shall have to say "I got it wrong again dad". 2 Go tell it to the marines the sailors will not believe it?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 06:08:18 PM
It's true, it snowballed, Red, and as you know I don't like all the aspects of the snowballing myself.
But the fact that the McCanns would never have been able to handle the situation they were in without legal and other assistance is a given. It would not have been humanly possible.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 06:12:30 PM
It's tru, it snowballed, Red, and as you know I don't like all the aspects of the snowballing myself.
But the fact that the McCanns would never have been able to handle the situation they were in without legal and other assistance is a given. It would not have been humanly possible.
They started it and fed it to a gruesome degree
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 06:13:46 PM
Yes. But Plea Bargaining appears to be illegal in both Portugal and England. However, we know that a version of it happens in England, so why not something similar in Portugal?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2014, 07:35:01 PM
Yes. But Plea Bargaining appears to be illegal in both Portugal and England. However, we know that a version of it happens in England, so why not something similar in Portugal?
Plea bargaining exists in England & Wales pre court appearance. Portuguese law does not have plea bargaining.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Eleanor on February 05, 2014, 07:55:23 PM
If one country can mess with The Law against Plea Bargaining so can another. That is my point.
There is a finite probability all the molecules/atoms of air in your living room may aggregate in one corner, but it doesn't mean they will.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Eleanor on February 05, 2014, 08:27:31 PM
Why does it bother certain people that Kate was offered a reduced sentence if she confessed? Is it because it proves that The PJ never did have anything against her?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 08:30:11 PM
There is a finite probability all the molecules/atoms of air in your living room may aggregate in one corner, but it doesn't mean they will.
Bit like eddies scent of death finds! Came from somewhere in the apartment!! Though exact originating point couldnt be determined!Or originating point of death..pointers were parentsbedroom verandah and flower bed below
Also behind the sofa if it wasnt blood
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 05, 2014, 08:32:02 PM
So ? they could have been ignored, though they ( the McCanns) chose not too.
Ignore what? Media interest that might have helped find their child? It became a media frenzy. How could they have handled that on their own? The OC, seemingly, couldn't handle it either on their own. Mark Warner called in media experts to help deal with the situation.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 08:35:44 PM
Why does it bother certain people that Kate was offered a reduced sentence if she confessed? Is it because it proves that The PJ never did have anything against her?
They don't prosecute. It wasn't their decision.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 08:37:30 PM
Ignore what? Media interest that might have helped find their child? It became a media frenzy. How could they have handled that on their own? The OC, seemingly, couldn't handle it either on their own. Mark Warner called in media experts to help deal with the situation.
Yes, the Tremlett article quoted by Red in the Guardian notes that Mark Warner had a media person flown in from England on May 4th.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 08:41:50 PM
The PJ collect the evidence. If there is any. Which there obviously wasn't.
Interviews. Red is quite right to say the police were too lenient. In other countries they never would have allowed the husband of a witness to sit with her in the room, and they never would have allowed four months to pass with the most important witness having only been questioned once.
But even so the interviews are illuminating, and lawyers in other countries may have gone to court with them.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 05, 2014, 08:45:55 PM
Nothing the dogs indicated has anything to do with what may have happened to Madeleine.
Of course not it could have been any later inhabitants who didnt clear up after they peed poohed had sex, sweated, left their toenails and rotting fallen out teeth or hair ripped off with blood on it on the floor or had secret abortions in 5a and left a trail of blood after, or the gardener trapsed into 5a after using manure on the bourganvillia....then someone cooked a pork chop and left it hidden (in the wardrobe) OR .....it could be any of those things buried under concrete for years!! Sure! Lol and tut
Oops forgot mr amaral or his mates went to the morgue before the dogs came in and wipedtheir hands overdead bodies then went and spread it all over 5a...another theory!
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 08:53:52 PM
Of course not it could have been any later inhabitants who didnt clear up after they peed poohed had sex, sweated, left their toenails and rotting fallen out teeth or hair ripped off with blood on it on the floor or had secret abortions in 5a and left a trail of blood after, or the gardener trapsed into 5a after using manure on the bourganvillia....then someone cooked a pork chop and left it hidden (in the wardrobe) OR .....it could be any of those things buried under concrete for years!! Sure! Lol and tut
Oops forgot mr amaral or his mates went to the morgue before the dogs came in and wipedtheir hands overdead bodies then went and spread it all over 5a...another theory!
What an imagination!
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 05, 2014, 08:58:24 PM
Called thinking outside the box @)(++(*
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 05, 2014, 08:59:05 PM
You could easily fill a big book with all the sound bites. But without them it may only be a small pamphlet 8(8-))
Just don't write another one about Kate. One is enough.
I think I would slant it more for an American audience. The way it the case is covered over here is quite different from how it's done in Europe. I think I would discuss different perspectives.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 10:50:10 PM
I think I would slant it more for an American audience. The way it the case is covered over here is quite different from how it's done in Europe. I think I would discuss different perspectives.
Go for it, SH. But don't American audiences love sensationalism?
British do too more and more I guess, but we at least do not have programmes like Nancy Grace (due to regulation).
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on February 05, 2014, 10:59:21 PM
Go for it, SH. But don't American audiences love sensationalism?
British do too more and more I guess, but we at least do not have programmes like Nancy Grace (due to regulation).
They do love sensationalism, but they are also confused and intrigued when they learn that America and American perceptions are not the only things on the menu.
I actually write a few newspaper articles over here, discussing current events in America and elsewhere from a European perspective.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Lyall on February 05, 2014, 11:34:22 PM
They do love sensationalism, but they are also confused and intrigued when they learn that America and American perceptions are not the only things on the menu.
I actually write a few newspaper articles over here, discussing current events in America and elsewhere from a European perspective.
And criminal cases?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 12:01:19 AM
IMO possibly the biggest mistake of the original investigation was targeting KM. The evidence that this witness opened the window and shutter is easily proven to be incorrect. As for clothes they were not being worn that night therefore in no way incriminate this witness IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 06, 2014, 12:57:08 AM
That's because DP's visit at 6.30 is full of contradictions (also daily routine change). Kate said he was outside on balcony and only there for 30 seconds, DP said he was inside, Kate said she had a towel on, DP couldn't remember what she was wearing. Nobody believes a word they say about this visit. How do you know what clothes Kate was wearing at 6.45pm? It's still too early to be changed into going out dining clothes.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 01:27:36 AM
Combine the early Aug video of the EVRD indication immediately after sniffing a shelf, with the 4th May photo of same shelf. Superimpose visually the pile (4th May photo) onto the empty shelf (Aug video). Clothes which are NOT being worn do not incriminate their owner. All IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 06, 2014, 08:15:07 AM
No davel, if you had the vaguest idea of probabliity and chaos theory, it might help your comprehension. 8((()*/
Its very simple to explain why you are totally wrong...air will always move from an area of high to an area of low pressure...thats what keeps aeroplanes in the sky.. Molecules move randomnly but as soon as there is the slightest unequal pressure in the room the molecules move to the lowest pressure to equalise it.
Simple example is when you blow up a balloon and release it...the high pressure air doesn't stay in the balloon...it comes out until the pressure inside the balloon is the same as the pressure outside the balloon.
In short you are totally wrong
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 06, 2014, 08:27:58 AM
Its very simple to explain why you are totally wrong...air will always move from an area of high to an area of low pressure...thats what keeps aeroplanes in the sky.. Molecules move randomnly but as sson as there is the slightest unequal pressure in the room the molecules move to the lowest pressure to equalise it.
Simple example is when you blow up a balloon and release it...the high pressure air doesn't stay in the balloon...it comes out until the pressure inside the balloon is the same as the pressure outside the balloon.
In short you are totally wrong
You really don't get probability or chaos theory do you.
Try READING my post again before you get a hernia.
It might help. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 06, 2014, 08:31:36 AM
You really don't get probability or chaos theory do you.
Try READING my post again before you get a hernia.
It might help. 8((()*/
I wont labour the point because Im sure other posters will understand my post even if you don't. You cant have an area of high and low pressure in the same room...if you were to open a window in an aeroplane all the air rushes out.....nothing to do with probability or chaos theory...what you have done is shown you don't understand simple scientific principles...how could you be a chemistry teacher...this is all off topic so best left there
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 06, 2014, 08:47:43 AM
I wont labour the point because Im sure other posters will understand my post even if you don't. You cant have an area of high and low pressure in the same room...if you were to open a window in an aeroplane all the air rushes out.....nothing to do with probability or chaos theory...what you have done is shown you don't understand simple scientific principles...how could you be a chemistry teacher...this is all off topic so best left there
No davel, you have a pretense of knowledge of science.
You are still not reading my post, try again.
Don't you know what 'finite probability' means ?
Here's one for you.....................
How would you explain Hawking's 'discovery' of particles of negative mass I wonder ?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 06, 2014, 09:03:46 AM
No davel, you have a pretense of knowledge of science.
You are still not reading my post, try again.
Here's one for you.....................
How would you explain Hawking's 'discovery' of particles of negative mass I wonder ?
Stephen you are making a fool of yourself...this is the Maddie McCann forum and you are trying unsuccessfully to show how clever you are... I read your post and the assertion you made was totally wrong.
what you have proved is that debate on this forum is impossible because even though you have been shown to be wrong you will not admit it..
I don't have to explain any of Hawkings discoveries...he does this perfectly adequately himself which anyone can read
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: stephen25000 on February 06, 2014, 09:06:17 AM
Stephen you are making a fool of yourself...this is the Maddie McCann forum and you are trying unsuccessfully to show how clever you are... I read your post and the assertion you made was totally wrong.
what you have proved is that debate on this forum is impossible because even though you have been shown to be wrong you will not admit it..
I don't have to explain any of Hawkings discoveries...he does this perfectly adequately himself which anyone can read
No davel, as per usual you are trying to deceive.
Read again the words in my post, 'finite probability'.
You clearly don't comprehend.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 06, 2014, 09:21:01 AM
Read again the words in my post, 'finite probability'.
You clearly don't comprehend.
There is no possibility...as I have explained the slightest difference in distribution of the molecules throughout the room would lead to an immediate correction due to force of pressure...its very, very very simple physics...the level an eleven year old would understand...
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: xtina on February 06, 2014, 11:30:43 AM
well going back to op
was it possible she knew more...[ there was not an abduction in the first place]
knew what really happened
thought it inevitable k mcc would be charged .....because of what she knew
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 12:55:09 PM
Air pressure will be different (by tiny amounts) at different 3D locations, even in a sealed room, due to tiny temperature differences. So you get tiny draughts. This is why IMO Mr Grime cautiously stated that the EVRD indication in the corner near the wardrobe, may represent scent which migrated there from elsewhere in the room via draughts. IMO however it is interesting to watch the very last place sniffed immediately before alerting, which was one particular shelf, see video. It is important therefore to take that into account when interpreting the later clothes alerts IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: John on February 06, 2014, 01:06:32 PM
Has air pressure in the apartment any relevance to the topic theme?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Estuarine on February 06, 2014, 01:31:30 PM
Has air pressure in the apartment any relevance to the topic theme?
None at all. It started with Davel using his strawman technique.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 01:33:02 PM
One of the reasons why this witness was (IMO incorrectly) suspected and considered by some likely to be charged was evrd indication of clothing. I proposed a simple logical explanation that those two clothes indications do not incriminate their owner, by referring to another indication at the location of a pile of clothes. That is why IMO people brought up air currents, they may possibly affect (as Mr Grime notes) whether the scent originated near where the pile had been, or in a different part of the room.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Carana on February 06, 2014, 04:03:59 PM
One of the reasons why this witness was (IMO incorrectly) suspected and considered by some likely to be charged was evrd indication of clothing. I proposed a simple logical explanation that those two clothes indications do not incriminate their owner, by referring to another indication at the location of a pile of clothes. That is why IMO people brought up air currents, they may possibly affect (as Mr Grime notes) whether the scent originated near where the pile had been, or in a different part of the room.
Why would anyone put "incriminating" clothes back in a cupboard while simultaneously allowing other people in to search... including the police, instead of just chucking them out in a bin?
Eddie may have picked up on a innocent scent from recent inhabitants of that flat (four families, post disappearance, plus untold other people traipsing in and out). The last family vacated one week before Eddie turned up and, to my knowledge, there is no trace of interviews in the files up until it was shelved.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: John on February 06, 2014, 05:20:14 PM
My own opinion is that the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) tests were effectively a complete mess and would have been laughed out of any court. It was weeks after the disappearance, undoubtedly clothing had not only been moved several times from apartment to villa to underground car park repacked and put out again, but most probably laundered as well.
The apartment which the McCanns vacated was cleaned and let out to other tourists rendering any results found there completely useless.
Back on topic, I have no doubt that Amaral was going to charge one or both of the McCanns with an involvement after the fact in the accidental death of their daughter and were hoping for a confession of some sort on the second day and this was why Kates lawyer counselled her not to answer questions as was her right as an arguida.
It could have turned out so differently.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 07:44:28 PM
My own opinion is that the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) tests were effectively a complete mess and would have been laughed out of any court. It was weeks after the disappearance, undoubtedly clothing had not only been moved several times from apartment to villa to underground car park repacked and put out again, but most probably laundered as well.
The apartment which the McCanns vacated was cleaned and let out to other tourists rendering any results found there completely useless.
Back on topic, I have no doubt that Amaral was going to charge one or both of the McCanns with an involvement after the fact in the accidental death of their daughter and were hoping for a confession of some sort on the second day and this was why Kates lawyer counselled her not to answer questions as was her right as an arguida.
It could have turned out so differently.
The particular clothes which would later be signalled, were IMO in the pile on the shelf in wardrobe on evening of 3 May, from where they were IMO removed mid 5 May, and laundered same day IMO courtesy of the holiday company in laundry adjacent to Tapas. Yes the witness was advised by lawyer to not answer questions in second Sept interview, and I think she was correct to not answer in the circumstances. This means however that by far the most important witness has NEVER been properly interviewed by police about 10pm onwards (the 4th May interview was conducted in improper conditions, as witness herself points out).
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Mr Gray on February 06, 2014, 09:44:08 PM
None at all. It started with Davel using his strawman technique.
you show a very poor summary of the facts...I'm surprised
it was stephen who introduced the air pressure topic not me.. he also tried to introduce particles of a negative mass then the probability of tossing a coin...bizarre but true..
credit...or discredit where its due
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 06, 2014, 11:50:45 PM
It is not surprising that some expected this witness to be charged in Sept 2007. The indications claimed against witness included for example: 1. Prints indicating opening window and shutter but claiming found already open. 2. Signalled clothes having had contact with scent source. 3. A driver of signalled vehicle. 4. Carried signalled toy. In fact IMO this is the most unjustly accused person ever and the disproofs of the above are 1. A photo of a GNR print on patio door was mistakenly used as a print of witness on bedroom window. 2. Those clothes were not being worn and were in a different location to witness. 3. There were several drivers. 4. Toy was not signalled IMO, it was a correct k9 signal but incorrectly localised to toy by handler IMO. All IMO
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 06, 2014, 11:56:25 PM
My own opinion is that the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) tests were effectively a complete mess and would have been laughed out of any court. It was weeks after the disappearance, undoubtedly clothing had not only been moved several times from apartment to villa to underground car park repacked and put out again, but most probably laundered as well.
The apartment which the McCanns vacated was cleaned and let out to other tourists rendering any results found there completely useless.
Back on topic, I have no doubt that Amaral was going to charge one or both of the McCanns with an involvement after the fact in the accidental death of their daughter and were hoping for a confession of some sort on the second day and this was why Kates lawyer counselled her not to answer questions as was her right as an arguida.
It could have turned out so differently.
Cleaning doesn't destroy cadaver scent John and to be frank as an ex policeman trashing both an ex policeman ie mr grime and seasoned dog handler and mark harrison of the npia I find hard to comprehend
dogs are not used for fun or a toss a coin scenario
night now, off to see galloway on question time...love it when people speak out!
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 12:02:57 AM
... someone else who has been the victim of a mysterious burglary
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: icabodcrane on February 07, 2014, 12:06:04 AM
It is not surprising that some expected this witness to be charged in Sept 2007. The indications claimed against witness included for example: 1. Prints indicating opening window and shutter but claiming found already open. 2. Signalled clothes having had contact with scent source. 3. A driver of signalled vehicle. 4. Carried signalled toy. In fact IMO this is the most unjustly accused person ever and the disproofs of the above are 1. A photo of a GNR print on patio door was mistakenly used as a print of witness on bedroom window. 2. Those clothes were not being worn and were in a different location to witness. 3. There were several drivers. 4. Toy was not signalled IMO, it was a correct k9 signal but incorrectly localised to toy by handler IMO. All IMO
Where does Smithman fit in to your theory? Do you think he was involved?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 01:16:23 AM
Where does Smithman fit in to your theory? Do you think he was involved?
I'm not sure yet whether the sighting of man and child by the Irish family is crucially relevant, or totally irrelevant. The time fits, if the sighting is (as indicated by restaurant and cafe tills) slightly later than estimated. And no innocent parent and child has come forward for walking this location. But unconcealed carrying is highly unlikely if one considers statistics of other cases. Whether or not Smithman is relevant, IMO the allegations against KM were logically flawed and totally incorrect and I would have exercised right of silence at that 2nd interview if it was me, as it looked like they were about to charge her, on the basis of a most remarkable set of mistakes in logic. All IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 07, 2014, 10:54:58 AM
Thanks. It makes things clear when Smithman was spotted at a later time just as I thought to match with the first searches - he was never spotted as early as 9.50pm. That is the guy Pegasus with Madeleine! If you find any phone calls to JG then I'm interested - that guy has been involved from the start from getting the church keys to storing the hire car in his garage. I can't believe he wasn't fully investigated and all his properties searched with the dogs.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 05:20:01 PM
Thanks. It makes things clear when Smithman was spotted at a later time just as I thought to match with the first searches - he was never spotted as early as 9.50pm. That is the guy Pegasus with Madeleine! If you find any phone calls to JG then I'm interested - that guy has been involved from the start from getting the church keys to storing the hire car in his garage. I can't believe he wasn't fully investigated and all his properties searched with the dogs.
Even if Smithman is relevant, the witness group state it was a man, therefore there is no way that could possibly incriminate a female person, and no way the Smith sighting should have contributed in any way to a female person being nearly charged. All IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 07, 2014, 05:27:36 PM
Even if Smithman is relevant, the witness group state it was a man, therefore there is no way that could possibly incriminate a female person, and no way the Smith sighting should have contributed in any way to a female person being nearly charged. All IMO.
Would that depend upon whatever it was that she wasn't charged with? The charge might have been going to be something along the lines of 'concealing a death', or such like - nothing to do with disposal of a body.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 07, 2014, 05:41:16 PM
Even if Smithman is relevant, the witness group state it was a man, therefore there is no way that could possibly incriminate a female person, and no way the Smith sighting should have contributed in any way to a female person being nearly charged. All IMO.
They could connect Smithman to the female person very easily and therefore both being involved in her disappearance. They have open window finger prints, cadaver clothes, contradictions in statements etc.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pegasus on February 07, 2014, 05:56:30 PM
The Smiths sighting of a male logically cannot be evidence towards suspecting and charging a female.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 07, 2014, 06:02:50 PM
Indeed the deductions used to accuse and almost charge this witness lack common sense logic Wrong print used re the window opening accusation. And wrong assumption that clothes when contacted were being worn. IMO
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 08, 2014, 01:36:31 AM
Indeed the deductions used to accuse and almost charge this witness lack common sense logic Wrong print used re the window opening accusation. And wrong assumption that clothes when contacted were being worn. IMO
There was no evidence of the window being forced or any glove prints so who opened it from the inside? An abductor who didn't use it? That's not believable. There's no evidence to support a door moving 3 times. Impossible so people are mistaken (being polite here). Clothes alerted being in direct contact with a dead body is common sense when you hear how loud Eddie barked at those pants. If any sudden panic calls were made which is doubtful it would've been 6.40-7pm IMO.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: a.baker on February 08, 2014, 11:39:58 AM
KM took a shower around the time of DP's visit. She then claims she had a bath later that evening before going out. GM says she didn't as he believed she had showered earlier. A shower AND a bath? Is this odd or is it just me?
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Cariad on February 08, 2014, 11:42:29 AM
KM took a shower around the time of DP's visit. She then claims she had a bath later that evening before going out. GM says she didn't as he believed she had showered earlier. A shower AND a bath? Is this odd or is it just me?
No, it is odd.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: jassi on February 08, 2014, 11:49:54 AM
Actually its far from odd..Shower first to get clean then bath to soak and relax...otherwise you are soaking in dirty water...its common practice for some people and de rigeur in Japan...
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: a.baker on February 08, 2014, 12:37:30 PM
Its odd that Gerry doesn't recall Kate having a bath though isn't it? Said she didn't as she had showered earlier.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: pathfinder73 on February 08, 2014, 12:39:50 PM
What is normal is to get a shower straight away after you've finished your run not an hour later when DP appears.
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Cariad on February 08, 2014, 01:21:36 PM
KM took a shower around the time of DP's visit. She then claims she had a bath later that evening before going out. GM says she didn't as he believed she had showered earlier. A shower AND a bath? Is this odd or is it just me?
I don't think anyone has claimed she did both...in her original statement it says she had a "bath"and then put on make up etc
In her 2nd interview it says she showered, then later dried hair/put on make up
In both instances the Portuguese is banho iirc
GM says in his 2nd statement he thanks she had a bath earlier
It's just the once IMO and bath/shower seems interchangeable, an acceptable translation difference and not a big deal IMO...I mean who has a shower and then a bath a little later, it's silly
Title: Re: Why did Gerry's sister expect Kate to be charged with accidental death?
Post by: Redblossom on February 08, 2014, 03:16:55 PM
Indeed the deductions used to accuse and almost charge this witness lack common sense logic Wrong print used re the window opening accusation. And wrong assumption that clothes when contacted were being worn. IMO
No, I meant its illogical to think someone might not be suspected/arrested/charged as playing a part, even if they weren't the carrier
I'd also like to see what you are referring to regarding an officers print being on the kids bedroom window and it being passed off as KMs