UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Amanda3266 on February 06, 2014, 11:48:46 AM
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I am still doing much reading.
I did a bit of an internet search today regarding the evidence of one body in the kitchen or two.
I came across one of the appeal documents and a key phrase which I picked up was:
"There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone."
So am assuming the phone calls could not have happened as JB said they did.
I know we have moved on in terms of what we can do regarding phone calls etc now but I do wonder how JB counters that. Of course if the line had gone dead and the WHF phone was still off the hook then JB would not have been able to make any further calls from his phone. I imagine all of us who are over 40 will remember a time of not being able to make calls because the last caller to us had not hung up properly.
Anyone able to refute this or give more info which would explain it.
I lean towards JB being guilty but am always willing to be persuaded otherwise if it means an innocent man would regain his freedom (very fair minded me).
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Back in 1985 any call made from White House Farmhouse to Goldhanger would ring for a period of time considerably longer than the time it would have taken someone on a bike to travel the distance. Once at the house in Goldhanger the phone would be answered then cancelled. A few minutes later the line would have disengaged allowing a call to police to be made.
The time of the call to police is an excellent indicator as to when Jeremy arrived back at the cottage . This call was his undoing in my opinion. Had he not invented that call his story would have been more believable and would have opened up the scenario of a third party having committed the murders.
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So it is quite possible that JB rang Julie from WHF first (going by the timings) then rang his number in Goldhanger, then biked home, answered the phone and hung up.....waited for the line to disengage and then contacted the police.
Hvve read all the way through the appeal document now.....it is very telling that the appeal judges put in writing that having looked at all the available evidence they felt more and more that the jury had made the right decision.
Got a feeling though that appeal judges have made such comments before and then the appellant has been proved innocent.....need to read more about that though. Just something I read somewhere with regard to this appeal compared with another one....but can't remember the exact details.
I suppose if JB had waited until morning then he would be first on the scene and under immediate suspicion ....or not as it was staged to appear that SC had taken her own life. Maybe this seemed a "safer" story......clever but not clever enough.
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I am still doing much reading.
I did a bit of an internet search today regarding the evidence of one body in the kitchen or two.
I came across one of the appeal documents and a key phrase which I picked up was:
"There was no evidence of telephone billing information of the sort which would be available these days. There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant. If such a sequence had occurred, the telephone link would have remained open either until the handset at White House Farm was replaced or until the handset at Goldhanger had been replaced and left in position for a period which could vary from 1 to 2 minutes, when an automatic interruption of the link would take place. Until one or other of these events, the appellant would have been unable to make any call from the Goldhanger telephone."
So am assuming the phone calls could not have happened as JB said they did.
I know we have moved on in terms of what we can do regarding phone calls etc now but I do wonder how JB counters that. Of course if the line had gone dead and the WHF phone was still off the hook then JB would not have been able to make any further calls from his phone. I imagine all of us who are over 40 will remember a time of not being able to make calls because the last caller to us had not hung up properly.
Anyone able to refute this or give more info which would explain it.
I lean towards JB being guilty but am always willing to be persuaded otherwise if it means an innocent man would regain his freedom (very fair minded me).
Welcome to the forum Amanda3266.
IF we assume for argument sake NB did in fact make the call as told by JB it may have been from the kitchen phone prior to any shots being fired. NB may have then made a call to the police as per police logs. NB might not have replaced the handset. Or if he did replace the handset SC may have attempted to make a call at some stage and not replaced it. Another scenario is NB may have made the call(s) from the office phone with again SC attempting to make a phone call from the kitchen phone and not replacing the handset. It could simply be a case of SC not replacing the handset. In the same way that it appears a tampon applicator was left in the lounge and the shower head was left on the bottom of the tray ie things were not being replaced or put back in rightful places.
I do not believe NB phoned JB having received the gunshot wounds in the bedroom or kitchen due to a) it would seem physically impossible for NB to have spoken b) why would NB phone JB given the gravity of the situation; he would not have wanted to put JB's life in danger and would surely call emergency services c) no blood on phone.
Is it possible NB could have received the gunshot wound on the stairs to his shoulder before the others? This was just a superficial grazing.
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The testimony at trial from the telephone company means the following:
Someone placed a call from WHF to the cottage Nevill owned but allowed Jeremy to use.
The phone at WHF was never hung up.
Jeremy hung up his phone and after 1-2 minutes the line cleared and he was able to use his phone to make calls.
The prosecution theory is that he dialed his number, left the phone off the hook so that his phone kept ringing and then he went home and answered it and immediately hung up. After he was done cleaning himself up and disposing of the clothes he used, he called his girlfriend. Then after some more time (possibly cleaning up some more) he called police.
He originally stated that he hung up and immediately phoned the police. But that owuld not be possible because it would take 1-2 minutes for the line to clear and him to dial out. if he actually tried to call police right away he would have been aware of this fact. He waited a while to call anyone so didn't realize the phone would not work immediately upon hanging it up. His girlfriend's roomates gave varying times for when he called it coudl have been before 3AM. We don't know how long he took to clean himself up and call her and how long he cleaned up after calling her before he phoned the police.
The biggest problems about the alleged call is that:
At minimum Nevill would have been shot 5 times before he could have reached the phone and June had to have been shot already as well.
Under these circumstances the phone would have had blood on it had he picked it up and he would have stated he and his wife had been shot and needed medical attention. Yet Jeremy claims he didn't say anything about being shot or needing medical attention. He supposedly said she got a gun and might use it so come quick and help disarm her. He would have called 999 requesting police and emergency personnel. There is no way to keep it in the family when they were shot and needed medical help. At minimum he would have told his son call for an ambulance and come to help disarm her. Not to say she might use a gun come help us. He was not a trianed medical professional.
Worse yet, one of the 5 shots he suffered before he could have reached the phone would have either rendered his inconscious or unable to speak. If we assume the 3 most destructive headshots (fired at close range while he was not upright) were fired last then the shot that severed his voicebox and shattered his teeth rendering him unable to speak had to have been one of the wounds he received before he could have reached the phone. If not then one of the fatal shots was among the 5 and he would be unconscious so unable to speak anyway. The bottom line is he would have at most been able to dial but not say anything.
Jeremy's actions after supposedly receiving the call make no sense either.
Someone in his place would rush over to help his parents. instead he calls his girlfriend. Why would you wake a girlfriend to announce that your sister was in a crazy frenzy and you father wants you to go over? You would go find out what is up then the next day call to tell her about what happened.
Despite the fact his sister had not used any of the guns in the house and had not used any guns as an adult if ever in her life, he was scared to go over and instead called police to go check it out. He made police go first and then followed them there. He lived 3 minutes away yet he was too scared to even go walk around the house and try to peak in the windows. He then lied to police and told them that she fired all the guns in the house and was proficient with them so they better not get too close. He waited with them for hours calmly chatting about cars and guy stuff. Anyone in his place would have gone inside to check it out not wait for hours wondering what happened. He knew they were dead though and he did it that is why he was not curious and was so calm.
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Would the unit's on the bill not be time stamped thus proving or not that calls were made? I'm sure back in the 80's that BT (because I don't think anyone else ran the telephone network) had call 'rate' and it was more expensive between like 8am and 6pm, then another rate between 6-8pm and then cheapest the rest of the time or something like that, so they must have known what time calls took place to apply the appropriate charge, I'm thinking this because my Nan has a Mansfield code, we have a Sheffield code and we used to call her on Fridays but after 8pm whether it was because my Dad had gone to the pub by then or it was cheaper calls I don't know @)(++(*
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Would the unit's on the bill not be time stamped thus proving or not that calls were made? I'm sure back in the 80's that BT (because I don't think anyone else ran the telephone network) had call 'rate' and it was more expensive between like 8am and 6pm, then another rate between 6-8pm and then cheapest the rest of the time or something like that, so they must have known what time calls took place to apply the appropriate charge, I'm thinking this because my Nan has a Mansfield code, we have a Sheffield code and we used to call her on Fridays but after 8pm whether it was because my Dad had gone to the pub by then or it was cheaper calls I don't know @)(++(*
@)(++(* @)(++(*
Reminds me of the joke:
Yorskhire man says to his wife "Put your coat on love". Wife says "Oh are you taking me to the pub". Yorkshire Man says "No I'm going to the pub and turning the heating off". @)(++(* @)(++(*
At that time I think phone billing just showed 'peak' and 'off-peak' rate?
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In the US our phone bill would not list local calls because you were charged a flat fee for local service whether you used it or not. Only the non-local calls were itemized on bills because there was an individual charge for each non-local call. Maybe this is how it was in the UK at the time as well? Maybe that is why instead of the call appearing on a printed bill the telephone company had to send someone to testify about what their internal records revealed. This is just a guess on my part.
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Another point which I haven't seen mentioned before is why did he not seek help from neighbours to call police if the landline was temporarily blocked? He couldn't have been too concerned after all.
If I recall correctly, in the UK in 1985 local calls were charged as metered units and not itemised.
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Another point which I haven't seen mentioned before is why did he not seek help from neighbours to call police if the landline was temporarily blocked? He couldn't have been too concerned after all.
If I recall correctly, in the UK in 1985 local calls were charged as metered units and not itemised.
Jeremy didn't even know it would be blocked for 1-2 minutes. He called his girlfriend before he called the cops. But obviously he didn't try to call his girlfriend as soon as he hung up the phone. He waited a while to call her so was totally unaware that the phone would not have immediately worked.
The only thing that makes sense is he dialed his own number from WHF and then went home answered and immediately hung up because he knew no one was on the other side of the line to talk to him. His clothes and body definitely needed to be washed up so he probably did that before he called Julie. By the time he called Julie the phone cleared and he had no idea that the phone would have taken 1-2 minutes to clear before he could use it again.
The fact he did not know it would not clear is one of the things used to prove he didn't immediately call police like he claimed. But he eventually conceded he called Julie first so this point was not really as important anymore because the important fact was that he didn't call police right away.
I personally view calling Julie period as extremely damaging. I don't see any valid purpose for waking her up based on the limited information available to him. Authorities call in the middle of the night to say your parents are in a car accident and you have to go to the hospital to find out if the injuries were serious or fatal. Do you then call and wake your girlfriend in the middle of the night to say my parents were in an accident I am going to the hospital to see how they are I will call you later when I find out something? No you go to the hospital and find out how they are then after you know you might call your girlfriend to tell her either because you want her to come comfort you or you want to explain to her why you will be busy and can't see or talk to her because you have things you need to do. If you learned something bad happened, unless you want to be comforted, you would wait to call her to tell her the bad news at a normal hour not wake her up.
He supposedly received a call that his sister had a gun and might use it so come right over. Why would he wake up his girlfriend to tell her that? Here is the potential conversation if we trust him and make her respond as a normal person would:
Julie: Hello
Jeremy: Hi
Julie: Why did you call at this hour, you woke me up
Jeremy: Sorry my dad just called. He said Sheila go a hold of a gun and is running around with it an dhe is scared she will use it so he wants me to go right over.
Julie: oh my God what are you going to do
Jeremy: I will call the cops and make them take me over there to check it out
Julie: Be careful
Jeremy: Don't worry I won't take any risks the cops will have to go inside first
Julie: ok call me when you find out what happened
Jeremy: I will, bye
Basically his converstion would be classified as gossip. It really served no purpose. He cares so little about his family he is gossiping instead of going over to help them? It is not as if he was worries and calling her to calm him nerves. If he was worried he would have gone to check it out and would not have waited around for hours without going in. Cops said he was cool as a cucumber and talked about cars and guy stuff.
Her account is much more convincing. He didn't wake her to tell her something might or might not have happened at his parent's house. He was calling to tell her his family was dead because he was bursting with joy and needed to share his excitement with someone. He could not wait for a normal hour to tell her.
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Don't forget the first call to her when he told her that tonights the night. Taking the two calls together adds up to a conspiracy before the act.
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Don't forget the first call to her when he told her that tonights the night. Taking the two calls together adds up to a conspiracy before the act.
She does indeed claim he said that to her. Given the totality of events I believe her. But in and of itself a call form boyfriend to girlfriend is innocuous and could be innocently explained away. He claims she is lying and they jsut had a normal talk.
A call in the middle of the night to wake up a girlfriend and her roomates is a different matter. Why couldn't he wait for a normal hour to phone her? The only explanation for such a call could be excitement. Either excited in a good way so wanting to express joy or a bad way and wanting to express sadness and to receive condolences.
He supposedly didn't even know yet if his family was hurt or not. So how could he have needed a shoulder to cry on? Moreover, if he were that upset he would have demosntrated such to police instead of being calm as a cucumber. If so upset he would have gone over like his father supposedly asked him to. At minimum he would have gone over to spy from outside. Waiting a while to call police and waiting for police to go first doesn't demonstrate much concern. Waiting outside for for over 3 hours chatting with police doesn't demonstrate much concern either. A normal person would press police to go in or say if they don't go in he is going in. Given the totality of a lack of urgent concern I see no valid reason for him to wake his girlfriend and tell her anything. He could have just waited till morning to tell her after he found out what if anything actually happened. He was excited because he knew they were dead and he was overjoyed. That is the only real explanation.
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What I also don't understand is that Neville calls Jeremy to tell him about Sheila but Jeremy didn't go round. A few years ago, a friend of mine went down during a phone call, the first thing I did was go round in the car because I didn't think the police would believe me if I called them.
Even when I got there and couldn't get in (with the keys) and called the police and ambulance, they didn't really want to break in, it was only the paramedic who I managed to convince that they got in.
Jeremy would have had a key, if he'd have gone round he could have 999'd it when he saw the carnage and I still don't understand that if he did it at say 2am, he goes home, showers, makes the phone call up as then goes round and goes in the house, saying his home phone had gone and he went round to see what was occurring.
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What I also don't understand is that Neville calls Jeremy to tell him about Sheila but Jeremy didn't go round. A few years ago, a friend of mine went down during a phone call, the first thing I did was go round in the car because I didn't think the police would believe me if I called them.
Even when I got there and couldn't get in (with the keys) and called the police and ambulance, they didn't really want to break in, it was only the paramedic who I managed to convince that they got in.
Jeremy would have had a key, if he'd have gone round he could have 999'd it when he saw the carnage and I still don't understand that if he did it at say 2am, he goes home, showers, makes the phone call up as then goes round and goes in the house, saying his home phone had gone and he went round to see what was occurring.
Jeremy's claims of what transpired during the call and his reaction to same harms him tremendously.
Issue 1) The call itself
A) Upon reaching the kitchen Nevill had alreayd been shot. His lip was shot off, his jaw shattered and his voicebox severed thus he would have been unable to speak in any fashion that could be understood so right off the bat this makes claim he told Jeremy what he did impossible at best he could have dialed but not said anything coherent. If he had dialed he would have goten blood on the phone but there was none so obviously he didn't touch the phone.
B) If he could have been able to speak he would have called 999 saying he and his wife had been shot and needed medical attention. If he chose to call his son he would at minimum have stated they had been shot and needed medical attention not simply to tell him to come over to disarm her before she can shoot anyone. Jeremy's claim his father wanted to keep it in the family makes no sense. There is no way to protect his daughter and keep it in the family after she had already shot June and himself. They needed medical attention which Jeremy could not possibly provide. If Sheila had shot them and they died it would be far worse for Sheila, saving their own lives would not only be in his best interest but Sheila's because then she would not face murder charges.
c) The evidence proves that Nevill did not reach the kitchen until after he was already shot and could not speak. But even if he had been in the kitchen before he was shot it makes no sense to call Jeremy to disarm her. Nevill was a large man who could have disarmed Sheila as easily as Jeremy if not moreso. Why would he need Jeremy's help to disarm her? Worse yet, why would he expose himself to harm by making the call and then waiting for Jeremy to arrive? If someone is pointing a gun at you and you are scared they will shoot you do you pick up the phone and thus dare them to shoot you? You would be better off trying to wrestle the gun away then to present a static target on the phone. At least trying to get the gun away you have a chance. If they open fire with you standing there on the phone you are a dead duck. It would take Jeremy time to get dressed, get in his car and drive over. It would take at minimum 5-10 minutes to dress and drive there. If you are so scared someone is going to shoot you then you should try to disarm them. To call someone else to come disarm them in 5-10 minutes makes no sense unless the person is too strong for you to disarm and you need someone stronger to do it. But Jeremy had no greater ability to disarm Sheila than Nevill did. In fact, since Jeremy did not get along with his sister and she allegedly was in a frenzy Jeremy would have a more difficult time disarming her than Nevill. Nevill had a better chance of calming her down since by all accounts he was her favorite family member other than her children.
So right off the bat there are big problems regarding the alleged call and what Nevill allegedly told him. Jeremy's actions after supposedly receiving the call only make matters worse.
Something similar happened to me. My sister called like 5AM to say she found out my brother had a gun and she was scared he was going to kill everyone in the house. I did not call police I went over to check it out myself. The gun was a Daisy or crossman pellet gun that was shaped like a revolver. Anyone who knows anything about guns can tell was not a real gun but my sister couldn't tell a real gun from a hole in the wall because she wasn't into guns. Instead of speaking to him she just saw it in his hands and that was it she panicked. So I was woken up at 5AM because he wanted to kill squirrels with a pellet gun. Imagine if I had called the police. The natural thing to do when immediate family says there is trouble is to go over and check it out. I didn't call other relatives to tell them about potential trouble I went over to check it out. Note that it wasn't my father who called me, he would have simply confronted my brother or took it away if it were a real gun. My father was a Marine during WWII, he served on Iwo Jima among other places so knew the difference between a real gun and a pellet gun. He was taller and heavier than I am, I take after my mother's side (short Italians). It was my sister who didn't feel she had the strength to take away the gun and she is the one who called me. If he had felt threatened by my brother possessing a gun he would not have called me to take it away he would have done so himself. He did in fact do that with a real rifle. My brother bought a rifle to go hunting with his friends with. One time when drunk he was playing with it. My father was scared he would hurt himself or shoot a hole in the wall so took it away. I was not called over to do it. my father was more than capable and time was of the essence. He didn't know whethe rit was loade dor not and did not want to take the risk of it being loaded and discharging which could hurt someone or at minimum damage something in the home.
Issue 2) Jeremy's actions
Ok so Nevill's supposed actions under the alleged circumstances make no sense and were even impossible but what about Jeremy's actions?
Did Jeremy run over to check things out? No he wasted a lot of time between allegedy receiving the call from Nevill and going there.
The first thing Jeremy did was to wake Julie and her roomates up aroudn 3AM to tell her he hadn't been to sleep and his plan was going well. If we accept his version instead then he called to tell her about the call from Nevill. Instead of going over to investigate or calling police he decided to call his wake up his girlfriend to tell her about the call. That makes no sense at all. It demonstrates no sense of urgency at all and not much concern. What help could she offer? none. He called her just to talk about it instead of actually doing anything. That would have been like me waking up a good friend or relative to say what my sister told me. Why would I wake someone up to tell the I received a call and was not sure what was going on? If I found out something was indeed wrong after checking things out is when I would inform family or friends about it. The only reason to call someone to say I was checking things out would be if I had scheduled plans that I had to miss because I had to go check things out. So right off the bat the fact he called her at all is suspicious and makes no sense. The only other potential reason to call someone would be to say I am going to investigate, here is why and if something happens to me make sure you tell the authorities. But that is not what Jeremy or Julie claims happened during this call.
After calling her did he go over? No, he waited at least 20 minutes after the call to Julie and claimed he felt it would be too dangerous to go over and at that point he called the police instead. If he felt it was so dangeorus and urgent why not call police right away and why not call 999? He gave conflicting answers to this, at one point saying he didn't think there was great danger and that it was too urgent. But when asked why he would not go over to investigate he told them he was scared he was being set up by Nevill for his sister to shoot him too. So he contradicted himself indicating he felt there was great danger. So at that point he changed his story and claimed he didn't call 999 because he didn't think the police response time would be any different.
Even if he didn't realize it takes less time for a 999 operator to dispatch a police care than to call a police station general line, the response time was still different because he claims to have take a long time to call 2 different police stations. He supposedly looked up a number then dialed and no one answered. Instead of dialing 999 at that point he looked for another police station that also could have had no one manning the phone for all he knew and this supposedly is how he wasted the 20 minutes after Julie's call. How could you not know that wasting 20 minutes to get through to police would be slower than to just dial 999 where there is someone to answer 24/7? his story makes no sense.
He wanted police to pick him up along the way. He wanted the responders to know he was at his house and had nothing to do with what was going on at WHF. He wanted to make sure they didn't think he was phoning from WHF and simply went outside to wait for police. This demosntrates he knew something bad had definitely happened there though he repeatedly told police before and afte rthis call that he had no idea if anyone was hurt.
The police told him to go over and they would meet him there. The police felt there wa sno danger in having him stay outside and wait for the to arrive. He claims he was too scared that he would be ambushed in his car and that he wanted the to arrive first, even though it was well known constables were not armed so could not have offered any protection to him. Since police would not pick him up he waited on the side of the road for them to pass by and then slowly followed them there arriving 3 minutes later than them though the entire drive to WHF from his house was only 3 minutes.
His claim he was too scared to drive there and spy from his car makes no sense. In fact he could have safely spied through the windows. The fact he didn't ever have enough curiousity to go up to the windows and look in deonstrates a lack of concern for his family or knowledge of what already happened hence no need for curiousity. Someone who called police out of concern would be pressing those police to enter or go in himself if they refused not wait 4 hours for police to finally enter.
The rest of the family was convinced that Sheila would not have known how to use a gun and would not have been afraid to enter because they didn't think she would even know how to load it. They never saw her touch a gun or show any interest at all. Did Jeremy ever see her shoot or touch any of the guns in the house? nope he ha dno idea if she knew how to load any of them. Why was he so scared then? Well he had no reason to be so scared so he made one up. He lied to polcie and told them that Sheila had fired and was proficient with all the guns in the house. He even claimed she went shooting with Anthony and Nevill. it turns out these were all lies. She didn't go shooting with Anthiny and Nevill and he admitted he hadn't seen her touch a gun as an adult. All guns in the house were obtained after she reached adulthood so he flat out lied ot police about her being firing all of them and being proficient with them. Why did he lie? Is there any plausible valid reason for him lying about this? No, none. He lied so that police would believe Sheila was capable of using the guns for 2 reasons. First so that they would be reluctant to go inside and seocnd so that when they did finally go inside they would believe she did it.
Prior to police going in Jeremy called Julie again. This time he told her not to go to work because something was wrong at WHF and police would pick her up and need to speak to her. Before police even found the bodies he knew they were dead and wanted her to be a helpful witness. He felt that if she told police that he called her to say Nevill had phoned this would corroborate his claims. So he woke her up to lie about Nevill calling so she can say he woke her up to say he told her Nevill called.
When you look at his actions it is easy to see everything was staged. He had no sense of urgency at all, did not check on his family but rather all his actions were contrived.
When you factor in the kitchen phone being hidden and replaced by the bedroom phone and his claims about leaving the gun and bullets in the kitchen (though there were too many bullets in the box for that box to have been used) and his lies about Sheila being proficient with firearms and the gun being routinely stored and used without the suppressor (including falsely claiming it did not fit in the closet with the suppressor attached though that is how it was usually stored) Jeremy has major problems. He is not being honest he is lying and covering up the truth. Why would he need to do such unless he were the killer?
Jeremy's supporters never address his various lies and inconsistencies because they have no way to defend them.
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What I also don't understand is that Neville calls Jeremy to tell him about Sheila but Jeremy didn't go round. A few years ago, a friend of mine went down during a phone call, the first thing I did was go round in the car because I didn't think the police would believe me if I called them.
Even when I got there and couldn't get in (with the keys) and called the police and ambulance, they didn't really want to break in, it was only the paramedic who I managed to convince that they got in.
Jeremy would have had a key, if he'd have gone round he could have 999'd it when he saw the carnage and I still don't understand that if he did it at say 2am, he goes home, showers, makes the phone call up as then goes round and goes in the house, saying his home phone had gone and he went round to see what was occurring.
Something else worth remembering, the doors were locked from the inside so even if he had a key he wouldn't have been able to open them. The other thing is that the police didn't have to break down the back door in order to gain access as Jeremy knew how to get into the house using a window. Convenient wasn't it that he forgot to tell the police about this BEFORE they forced entry to the property.
The invented telephone call from Nevill was Jeremy's attempt at creating an alibi, quite a pathetic effort really. Who in their right mind would call their girlfriend for a chat in such circumstances before attempting to call the police and especially so at 3am in the morning. It is telling that Mugford didn't take him on and told him to go back to bed, obviously she assumed this was yet another one of his fantasies.
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Something else worth remembering, the doors were locked from the inside so even if he had a key he wouldn't have been able to open them. The other thing is that the police didn't have to break down the back door in order to gain access as Jeremy knew how to get into the house using a window. Convenient wasn't it that he forgot to tell the police about this BEFORE they forced entry to the property.
The invented telephone call from Nevill was Jeremy's attempt at creating an alibi, quite a pathetic effort really. Who in their right mind would call their girlfriend for a chat in such circumstances before attempting to call the police and especially so at 3am in the morning. It is telling that Mugford didn't take him on and told him to go back to bed, obviously she assumed this was yet another one of his fantasies.
Do you have a source that states they were locked from the inside? I recall a police statement to the effect a key to the back door was sitting on a shelf. I haven;t read anything that indicated the keys were inside the locks.
There was a spare key kept on the premises (barn or something like that I don't recall the precise location) which Jeremy never told the police about. Whether that key would have been of any use of course depends on whether a key was in the lock or not.
As for the window, I always thought it odd that Jeremy let police know he could get in from the window. He didn't tell them till later though of course. Why he told them at all is what makes me wonder.
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Do you have a source that states they were locked from the inside? I recall a police statement to the effect a key to the back door was sitting on a shelf. I haven;t read anything that indicated the keys were inside the locks.
There was a spare key kept on the premises (barn or something like that I don't recall the precise location) which Jeremy never told the police about. Whether that key would have been of any use of course depends on whether a key was in the lock or not.
As for the window, I always thought it odd that Jeremy let police know he could get in from the window. He didn't tell them till later though of course. Why he told them at all is what makes me wonder.
It is in the statements somewhere, the doors could only be opened from the inside after the family had retired for the night. This was yet another reason why a 3rd party intruder was discounted. They could not have left without leaving a door unlocked.
Only Jerry knew the secret of the unsecure window.
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That's what happened to me John, my friend had locked both front and back doors (not that I knew how to access his garden it was a row of bungalows and it was dark) and left the keys in situ, they ended up breaking the glass in the back door and 'rolling' it down, it didn't smash as such.
Scipio_usmc you certainly know this case inside and outside.
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Something else worth remembering, the doors were locked from the inside so even if he had a key he wouldn't have been able to open them. The other thing is that the police didn't have to break down the back door in order to gain access as Jeremy knew how to get into the house using a window. Convenient wasn't it that he forgot to tell the police about this BEFORE they forced entry to the property.
The invented telephone call from Nevill was Jeremy's attempt at creating an alibi, quite a pathetic effort really. Who in their right mind would call their girlfriend for a chat in such circumstances before attempting to call the police and especially so at 3am in the morning. It is telling that Mugford didn't take him on and told him to go back to bed, obviously she assumed this was yet another one of his fantasies.
Bews states in the following vid (3.30 in) that he wasn't going to run the risk of knocking on the front door, or even going up close to the property, for fear of getting shot at (big girls blouse).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
Are you suggesting that member(s) of EP should have put themselves in a compromising position by squeezing their bulky (protective vests/helmets) frames through a small window? They would have been in a very vulnerable position had anyone appeared with a gun. Others would not have been able to cover for them. It goes against my TA training (now known as the Army Reserves) and I would think TFG too? Breaking down the door was imo the right tactical decision.
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Bews states in the following vid (3.30 in) that he wasn't going to run the risk of knocking on the front door, or even going up close to the property, for fear of getting shot at (big girls blouse).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
Are you suggesting that member(s) of EP should have put themselves in a compromising position by squeezing their bulky (protective vests/helmets) frames through a small window? They would have been in a very vulnerable position had anyone appeared with a gun. Others would not have been able to cover for them. It goes against my TA training (now known as the Army Reserves) and I would think TFG too? Breaking down the door was imo the right tactical decision.
Jeremy knew he could get in using the window and could have done so if he had wanted. But that wasn't part of the plan obviously.
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Bews states in the following vid (3.30 in) that he wasn't going to run the risk of knocking on the front door, or even going up close to the property, for fear of getting shot at (big girls blouse).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EDp_tqUysI
Are you suggesting that member(s) of EP should have put themselves in a compromising position by squeezing their bulky (protective vests/helmets) frames through a small window? They would have been in a very vulnerable position had anyone appeared with a gun. Others would not have been able to cover for them. It goes against my TA training (now known as the Army Reserves) and I would think TFG too? Breaking down the door was imo the right tactical decision.
If there was in fact a living gunman inside then breaking the door down would have alerted the gunman to their presence and oculd have provoked a response. If there is a way to sneak inside that is a better option. That is why it would have been a big deal if the key wasn't in the door. There was a spare key hidden around the premises that could have been used to sneak in. Moroever, they were so scared of being shot because of Jeremy's lies. He told police Sheila had fired and was proficient with all the guns in the house when in fact she had never used any of them. He even told some officers that he had given her lessons on how to use the murder weapon!
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=166.0 page 3-4
He also later claimed that she had gone shooting with Nevill and Anthony. Anthony denied this and he changed his story to never seeing her touch a gun as an adult. You never account for such lies which served no valid purpose. You pretend such lies never happened because they are damning.
He told other police varying things as well such as saying that after the phone went dead he tried to call back but no one would answer. It didn't go dead though the call was disconnected on his end so he dropped this claim after the bodies were found. All his dropped claims he attributed to police lying and denied ever making such contradictory claims, how convenient.
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It is in the statements somewhere, the doors could only be opened from the inside after the family had retired for the night. This was yet another reason why a 3rd party intruder was discounted. They could not have left without leaving a door unlocked.
Only Jerry knew the secret of the unsecure window.
The source for the claim the doors were normally bolted from the inside is Jeremy. I found the statements you were referring to though. I was aware that police indicated in their statements that Jeremy told them he did not have access to a key and that the usual practice was to lock and bolt the door from the inside so it likely was bolted from the inside. He lied because there was a spare key kept on the premises. To be accurate he should have stated there is a spare key but it probably won't do any good because the door is usually bolted from the inside. Given his lies I didn't consider his claim alone worth much.
Apparently PC Collins though said that he saw a key in the lock when he looked into it.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=166.0 page 4
page 8 states the other doors were secured from the inside by locks and bolts.
Woodcock notes at the end he never looked for a suppressor only ammunition and firearms
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As for the window, I always thought it odd that Jeremy let police know he could get in from the window. He didn't tell them till later though of course. Why he told them at all is what makes me wonder.
I thought this was because he had become a suspect and knew his fingerprints may have been on that window, especially if he had done a dress rehearsal earlier. If his fingerprints were found there and he had maintained that he'd never used that window, the prosecution could have used this against him.
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I thought this was because he had become a suspect and knew his fingerprints may have been on that window, especially if he had done a dress rehearsal earlier. If his fingerprints were found there and he had maintained that he'd never used that window, the prosecution could have used this against him.
I thought he claimed to have opened the windows because the house smelled from cleaners. You are right that such could have been his motive for telling police that is how he entered when he needed to get some things after the murders. His prints on the windows would not be that suspicious though given he lived there. He could have given a more innocent excuse. He didn't seem to think well on the fly and outsmarted himself instead of the police.
I personally have been able to knock skelton keys out of mortise locks using either the key to force it out or if it was turned inside then I would use long needlenose pliers to turn it to the point where I could force it out. So that could be why he didn't want to tell them about the spare key to get in.
If I had been in his place no way would I have told police I could gain access through the windows. The house being locked from the inside was a major asset to claiming it had to have been carried out by someone inside the house. Letting police known he could get in through the window hurt his cause way more than saying he opened and closed the windows plenty of times so his prints should be expected on some of them. If he was smarter he would not have gotten convicted though so thank goodness for stupid criminals.
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Posters on Blue seem to think that simply unplugging the 'master' phone will disable the others. I think they will find this is incorrect. Only removing a handset from the cradle, which causes the line to become engaged, will disable extension phones.
Check it out on your home telephony with your mobiles.
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Posters on Blue seem to think that simply unplugging the 'master' phone will disable the others. I think they will find this is incorrect. Only removing a handset from the cradle, which causes the line to become engaged, will disable extension phones.
Check it out on your home telephony with your mobiles.
That's correct Holly, telephones are wired in such a way that all or any of them can be used regardless of which ones are or aren't plugged in. However, lifting the handset will not disable the other extensions as long as a dialing tone can be heard.
The master phone in older properties back in 1985 tended to be in the hall or the study and not in a bedroom or an office. That said and out of interest, does anyone know where the master phone was located at WHF?
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That's correct Holly, telephones are wired in such a way that all or any of them can be used regardless of which ones are or aren't plugged in. However, lifting the handset will not disable the other extensions as long as a dialing tone can be heard.
The master phone in older properties back in 1985 tended to be in the hall or the study and not in a bedroom or an office. That said and out of interest, does anyone know where the master phone was located at WHF?
It was near the serving hatch and what I meant by being able to disable the other phones by pulling the plug is if the phones used this kind of set-up
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It was near the serving hatch and what I meant by being able to disable the other phones by pulling the plug is if the phones used this kind of set-up
Was that sort of set up around in 1985? Openreach certainly wasn't. I think you will find that sort of set up is used to run a fax and tel on one line with no interruption to one if the other is used.