http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-claims-madeleine-mccann-kidnappers-3127121
This article indicates that the maintenance department keys were lost, and replaced with keys from reception.
If thats true then presumably reception employees and senior management would also know about the lost keys?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-claims-madeleine-mccann-kidnappers-3127121
This article indicates that the maintenance department keys were lost, and replaced with keys from reception.
If thats true then presumably reception employees and senior management would also know about the lost keys?
From my experience working in a tourist resort in the Algarve, the locks on all of the apartments would have been replaced and new keys made.Yes that's what should happen.
Nothing about the keys in there..Sorry its
Sorry its
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/458798/Apartment-key-theft-cover-up-by-resort-staff-in-Madeleine-McCann-case
From my experience working in a tourist resort in the Algarve, the locks on all of the apartments would have been replaced and new keys made.
Re the recent Express article that a whole bunch of keys went missing just before the disappearance.
Does it seem strange that anyone would be able to obtain replacement keys from reception without management knowing?
Re the recent Express article that a whole bunch of keys went missing just before the disappearance.I agree, they might have known.
Does it seem strange that anyone would be able to obtain replacement keys from reception without management knowing?
Who says management didn't know? Perhaps they did.From beginning walks for press were PR managed.
Mark Warner had their PR officer flown in from England the very next day -they knew this whole situation was going to be very big for them, even by day 2.
But Portuguese police have always believed any intruder would have used the FRONT DOOR to enter, knowing the McCanns would never use it that night. He could also have escaped through the shuttered front window to the children's bedroom. For this he would have needed a KEY to the front door. The one the McCanns had for the Ocean Club apartment is known in the locksmiths' trade as a "crucifix key" - and is very unusual because it has four sides. Experienced British locksmith John Reeder told us the key used to take us into the flat yesterday is almost certainly a copy. He said: "Most locksmiths would not be able to copy it without great difficulty. The one in the picture is almost certainly not the original."
Supporting the theory that the kidnap could be an inside job, he added: "I would say it is most likely there is at least one other key in circulation as most locks come with at least two spares when they are cut. But there are not many keys aroun like this one."
May 11 2008
I was re-reading the lost keys story.
Man 1 who was questioned about the 'phone calls' - even in May 2007, said he called his wife to tell her he'd be late due to a colleague not turning up for work.
So, back in 2007 he was investigated? There are questions in files about his phone calls!
He was found by journalists and questioned. He then goes to accuse his co-worker of losing keys, said the keys were replaced, Said he left his job due to having problems with this particular co-worker. I read the file statement of the co-worker too. Very clear, precise. He said he was ready to help the police and would report anything unusual.
When traced now, the co-worker 2 said he never lost the keys.
So, someone is lying? Who? And why?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/458798/Apartment-key-theft-cover-up-by-resort-staff-in-Madeleine-McCann-case
Hard to tell for the moment. Lost doesn't necessarily mean permanently. The guy could have temporarily mislaid them, prior to finding them again and putting them back. If that's the case, no one is necessarily lying.
However, if he had mislaid them, could someone have taken them, over lunchtime for exampe, and had them duplicated without him noticing?
“From my memory I think they were replaced with duplicate keys for the apartments which were held at reception. I remember all this very clearly. He did not want us to tell people about it, so we didn’t say anything.”
These keys may appear unusual to a British locksmith, but they would seem to be very common in Portugal. If that's the case, any local locksmith would be able to duplicate one quite easily and quickly, I would have thought.These keys are not likie the British keys in more than one way. It seems to me that they are not machined for pecision as are out British keys, but either cast or forged. If cast, depending on the metal used, they might be rather brittle. Drop them once on hard ground and they might shatter. However a cast key would be dead easy to make. Using a split box, fill with the correct sand, tamp well down each half, smooth the surface, then press the key firmly up to its centre line in the sand of each box, so that an impression is made of both sides of the key. Clamp the two halves together. make an entrance pouring hole and an exit hole.
These keys are not likie the British keys in more than one way. It seems to me that they are not machined for pecision as are out British keys, but either cast or forged. If cast, depending on the metal used, they might be rather brittle. Drop them once on hard ground and they might shatter. However a cast key would be dead easy to make. Using a split box, fill with the correct sand, tamp well down each half, smooth the surface, then press the key firmly up to its centre line in the sand of each box, so that an impression is made of both sides of the key. Clamp the two halves together. make an entrance pouring hole and an exit hole.
Heat the chosen metal (Iron would be the easiest, I think) and once thoroughly molten pour into the mould. Allow to cool and open the box, tapping the side to allow the key to fall out. Fettle ... and Voila a new key. It could be hardened or subjected to any number of processes to strengthen it.
Forging would, I think, be more difficult, but would provide a tougher key. I have worked hands on in a foundry and cast metal there, but I have never forged metal except a la blacksmith, by hand. I have watched the forging process many times.
I think this key might have been cast in a manner rather like the lead sodiers kids used to make. Then treated to strengthen and case harden.
Seeing all this obsession with keys... one could almost think you don't actually believe the back door was left unlocked >@@(*&)
I suppose if they had a furnace that could reach 1150 degrees c., it may work.
what difference does it make if the patio doors were locked or unlocked,if the abductor had a front door key >@@(*&)
hmm,of course they would need a key to the front door,it was more concealed and less chance of being seen.
I also find the theory that someone misplaced the keys for a temporary period and it just happened that the person waiting to steal them was around at the time got lucky and just happened to nip to the local locksmith and get them copied! Then return them. Then, went on to burgle several flats? Err no...they didnt...if it was a planned abduction as we are told or theorised about, waiting for someone to mislay their keys or stealing them from a safe is both bonkers and bizarre, you only have to break the bloody door in or use a drill to damage and open the lockNoise and trouble, red, as against speed, slience and ease.
Think I will give the whole theory a miss myself....but the papers can carry on printing crap, that's what they do, wonder what's next
>@@(*&)
Can't see this "key business" going anywhere at all myself
there's no evidence of anything here IMO
>@@(*&)
Much ado about nothing probably, no solid fact anywhere at all
A witness statement is not a solid fact?
Of course it isn't per se, needs corroboration, never heard of false witness statements? Duh!
http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/
Nite erm don't dream of keys and imaginary abductors
Of course it isn't per se, needs corroboration, never heard of false witness statements? Duh!
http://blacksmithbureau.blogspot.co.uk/
Nite erm don't dream of keys and imaginary abductors
I suppose if they had a furnace that could reach 1150 degrees c., it may work.
Why would someone lie about the lost keys?
And if the media lied about him saying it.. the article would have been pulled out..
Bless your little cotton socks vixte, bye now
http://www.micromark.com/casting-metal-type-r-15-ozand41-cubic-inch,8336.html
Hard to tell for the moment. Lost doesn't necessarily mean permanently. The guy could have temporarily mislaid them, prior to finding them again and putting them back. If that's the case, no one is necessarily lying.
However, if he had mislaid them, could someone have taken them, over lunchtime for exampe, and had them duplicated without him noticing?
Or of course and far more likely, this never happened. The abduction was made up and the rest is bu##sh##e.
Why would someone lie about the lost keys?
And if the media lied about him saying it.. the article would have been pulled out..
I find it absolutely astonishing that these workers were so scared about their jobs that they failed to tell the police investigators that a bunch of keys belonging to block 5 at Ocean Club Garden had been lost or more probably stolen. Appalling!
Where is the evidence of key cutting dave ?
On every street corner in PdL there was a paedophile, a dodgy charity chugger, a person with a bundle and a greasy gitano knife grinder cum key cutter with an eye to main chance.........keep up Stephen 8(>((
Well it might be were it proved to be true rather than the products of someone's fertile imagination.
I find it absolutely astonishing that these workers were so scared about their jobs that they failed to tell the police investigators that a bunch of keys belonging to block 5 at Ocean Club Garden had been lost or more probably stolen. Appalling!
I find it absolutely astonishing that these workers were so scared about their jobs that they failed to tell the police investigators that a bunch of keys belonging to block 5 at Ocean Club Garden had been lost or more probably stolen. Appalling!
I think its BALONEY.
One of my many jobs over my life has been a head housekeeper of a large hotel. I had a full set of keys for all the rooms. These keys were collected each morning, and given back to reception at the end of shifts.
IF I had lost the bundle of keys, then i would not have been able to get into rooms, and if i had reported it, then a new set would have had to be obtained.
So someone somewhere would know this, and someone, somewhere would have had to get the keys duplicated.
I take it this was BEFORE the child went missing so why would they be scared to report it.
NONESENSE.
Also in the files it still maintains that the keys for flat 5A was a special key, so hardly simply to have replaced without someone knowing.
No I dont believe this story, its just make believe AGAIN.
I think its BALONEY.
One of my many jobs over my life has been a head housekeeper of a large hotel. I had a full set of keys for all the rooms. These keys were collected each morning, and given back to reception at the end of shifts.
IF I had lost the bundle of keys, then i would not have been able to get into rooms, and if i had reported it, then a new set would have had to be obtained.
So someone somewhere would know this, and someone, somewhere would have had to get the keys duplicated.
I take it this was BEFORE the child went missing so why would they be scared to report it.
NONESENSE.
Also in the files it still maintains that the keys for flat 5A was a special key, so hardly simply to have replaced without someone knowing.
No I dont believe this story, its just make believe AGAIN.
Well, yes, I can understand that... in theory.
However, the resort wasn't a hotel. Unless the reception and the maintenance shared one key, which doesn't seem to be very convenient for cleaning and maintenance needs, plus the possibility that tenants could lose their own, I would have thought it likely that there would have been more than one spare available per apartment (besides the tenant, and possibly an absent owner).
What makes you think that the key to 5A was different from those of the other apartments? In view of the two burglaries in the same block (one successful, one not), I haven't found any trace of either police reports on these two incidents, or any trace of whether the locks had been changed or not.
It's possible that the occupants had left their windows or doors wide open when these incidents occurred, I suppose, although that might be unlikely in April, depending on the time of day / evening.
I'm always suspicious when somebody spills their guts to a journo rather than the police. If the other workers knew about the lost/mislaid/stolen keys too,how come nobody has ever come forward before now? After all,a little girls life is at stake! If the guy was worried about his job why didn't he go to police when he jacked his job in? Imo the story is either bull or he is hiding something.
I'm always suspicious when somebody spills their guts to a journo rather than the police. If the other workers knew about the lost/mislaid/stolen keys too,how come nobody has ever come forward before now? After all,a little girls life is at stake! If the guy was worried about his job why didn't he go to police when he jacked his job in? Imo the story is either bull or he is hiding something.
I'm always suspicious when somebody spills their guts to a journo rather than the police. If the other workers knew about the lost/mislaid/stolen keys too,how come nobody has ever come forward before now? After all,a little girls life is at stake! If the guy was worried about his job why didn't he go to police when he jacked his job in? Imo the story is either bull or he is hiding something.
IMO he is neither a bull or hiding something. He's seen the papers reporting on a driver suspect.. and that driver suspect is HIM.
He then speaks to the journalists to clear his name but to put a blame on someone else.
And why everyone in here is forgetting the fact that the 'suspect OC driver' has been mentioned in the papers earlier this week.. i.e. the same guy!
Agreed it sounds like nonsense but I would've followed up on this discrepancy.
Teofilo Manuel Furtado Castela - Administrative Services Manager - Witness statement
Bernardino Silva, told him on Friday, the 04 of May, that the day prior, the date the child went missing, that he saw a strange individual around the resort; .
Bernardino de Abreu Pereia da Silva - Maintenance Worker / Driver - Witness statement
He states that at no moment, did he notice the presence of anyone with an abnormal behaviour, as regards children, or anything else which appeared to be of suspicious nature.
When asked, he says he no longer works for the MW OC for health reasons, he made the decision to resign.
When questioned about having made a telephone call on 3rd May at 21.00.11 having activated antennas in P da L, when his working day finished at 20.30, he says that on this day, as well as on others, he was delayed because he had to carry out the transport, even though it was late, of some tourists.
When questioned about having made a telephone call on 3rd May at 21.00.11 having activated antennas in P da L, when his working day finished at 20.30, he says that on this day, as well as on others, he was delayed because he had to carry out the transport, even though it was late, of some tourists. At this time he was driving the minibus belonging to the establishment. H e also says, that on this day, as well as the transport already referred to, he was late because of the fact that some tourists did not have the key to their apartment.
Well, that couldn't be because the keys , from block 5, all together on one long cable as reported, we're missing/mislaid/stolen, from /by the maintenance worker, as all the tapas group got into their block 5 apartments OK that day! Must have been another reason.
Such as[/b] ? That is what I am querying , Keys missing for tourists and a maintenance chap called out because someone couldn't get in their door. You think that could have been a regular occurrence ?
From my experience working in a tourist resort in the Algarve, the locks on all of the apartments would have been replaced and new keys made.
Could be anything
Keys were given out by holiday reps/reception, NOT maintenance workers...if that were the case and if the maintenance worker lost all the keys to block 5 none of them would have got in that day! And that never happened. As for a" problem with a lock" that someone had to be called out for, that didn't mean there was no key! But in this case what are you talking about? It was late May 3rd when he was called out and not to block 5 but miles away near the millenium restaraunt so nothng at all to do with any alledged loss of keys to BLOCK 5
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HAYLEY-CRAWFORD.htm
Not to worry RB....I can't tell you what I'm thinking. without bringing more people into it and there's enough as it is, so we'll just have to wait and see
Why was he questioned back in 2007 about a call he made?
Why was he the only one out of the staff to be questioned about a phone call he made?
I would assume that because the police had phone records, staff rotas and addresses, they identified his phone pinging in PDL after his normal shift end on the night in question.
Which actually suggests a fairly thorough analysis.
PJ was suspicious of him......
were they?
Am I the only one who sees the man being nervous now and shifting the blame on a colleague?
probably and perhaps you might have a rethink of who is trying to blame /point suspicion at all sorts
>@@(*&)
To me that article with interview with him says it clearly. 'It wasn't me but look at this other guy!'
That article is clearly a pile of....
And why is that? We've seen him already doing that, when he's reported 'a strange behaviour', back in 2007. saying you saw a strange individual in a resort doesn't mean you are shifting blame
...saying you saw a strange individual in a resort doesn't mean you are shifting blame
It often does...We've seen in more than few cases... for example Vincent Tabak, blaming the landlord in Joanna Yeates case..
And he's doing it again now, blaming the co-worker..
It can do sometimes but by that logic of yours anyone who reported a strange individual could be doing the same...Gerry did it himself too! As did a load of other witnesses.
Did he blame the coworker? What did he accuse him of?
This guy hasn't only reported the strange individual, he was questioned about his own phone calls by PJ, meaning they had a reason to suspect him and he has left the job soon after the disappearance (reason to suspect he's got other financial sources to live on.. and plus he's now bringing the lost keys to the surface..
And he did blame the co-worker, in a manipulative ways suggesting the co-worker was a strange character he did not like having around ( reason he left his job) and he was afraid of him ( reason he did not report the missing keys before)
Ok look forward to the arrest.....
I find it a little odd that the this missing keys story hasn't been leapt on by the other tabloid rags or featured on the TV news.
Has anyone seen it reported in any other papers?
I find it a little odd that the this missing keys story hasn't been leapt on by the other tabloid rags or featured on the TV news.Extract from Archiving Report
Has anyone seen it reported in any other papers?
I find it a little odd that the this missing keys story hasn't been leapt on by the other tabloid rags or featured on the TV news.
Has anyone seen it reported in any other papers?
This guy hasn't only reported the strange individual, he was questioned about his own phone calls by PJ, meaning they had a reason to suspect him and he has left the job soon after the disappearance (reason to suspect he's got other financial sources to live on.. and plus he's now bringing the lost keys to the surface..
And he did blame the co-worker, in a manipulative ways suggesting the co-worker was a strange character he did not like having around ( reason he left his job) and he was afraid of him ( reason he did not report the missing keys before)
Perhaps even they recognise it as rubbish.
Indeed Vixte. I really appreciate the logical way you try to connect the dots and the effort you put in to develop new conjectures that are underpinned by the hard and soft data points available. It is definitely not easy to create those consistent scenarios, but it typically is very easy to criticize them with an effortless one-liner.
I believe that the reports on the stolen/lost keys could actually be a spin-off of what in police investigator jargon is called 'making wind'. This is what SY have been doing with their TV broadcast and the (probably leaked) noises around possible new suspects. The purpose of 'making wind' is to literally stir up the dust in old cases and to induce anxiety in the perpetrators' minds to suggest that the web is closing in on them. This heightened nervousness from media and SY/PJ breezing down their necks, then leads to more 'panicky' behaviors that can reveal clues about this case (e.g by people starting to accuse each other, tapping phone calls of suspects since there is a need to re-align on stories, etc.).
These stories might be circulating in UK, but Crimewatch wasn't broadcast in Portugal, nor will all the UK reportage be being repeated, so just who are they trying to destabilise with their 'wind'
Indeed Vixte. I really appreciate the logical way you try to connect the dots and the effort you put in to develop new conjectures that are underpinned by the hard and soft data points available. It is definitely not easy to create those consistent scenarios, but it typically is very easy to criticize them with an effortless one-liner.
I believe that the reports on the stolen/lost keys could actually be a spin-off of what in police investigator jargon is called 'making wind'. This is what SY have been doing with their TV broadcast and the (probably leaked) noises around possible new suspects. The purpose of 'making wind' is to literally stir up the dust in old cases and to induce anxiety in the perpetrators' minds to suggest that the web is closing in on them. This heightened nervousness from media and SY/PJ breezing down their necks, then leads to more 'panicky' behaviors that can reveal clues about this case (e.g by people starting to accuse each other, tapping phone calls of suspects since there is a need to re-align on stories, etc.).
It was actually the PT paper that reported on 'suspicious driver'.. so the guy knows they are looking at him..
Extract from Archiving Report
I - Introduction
Before actually entering the appreciation of the present inquiry it is useful to take a summarised look at the enormous dimension of the inquiry which is constituted of 17 Volumes, with a global processing of approximately 4500 pages, 9 appendixes that are integrated by 55 Volumes, in which 12000 pages and other relevant pieces were gathered, analysed and treated; further 22 dossiers were constituted, with more than 5000 pages, concerning fanciful or senseless news, yet organised out of mere caution.
Maybe it has been looked at before and is in here >@@(*&)
Shocking that so much manpower and resources were put on the "senseless and fanciful" but kudos for the thoroughness!
As one of the top forensic detectives in the UK has said in the documentary Dispatches, IIRC, the PT police did a pretty good job on the whole
Eta link for quote
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mccanns-evidence-doesnt-add-up-514328
What is the reason of mentioning this?
Don't we expect that SY has after so much research passed this level?
What level? Do you think SY have investigated this multitude of "senseless and fanciful" leads?
The point made was in answer to Estuarines post, ie that the PJ did a thorough job, chasing needles in haystacks as well as the "not nonsensical and fanciful"
I very much doubt SY will be spending manpower and resources chasing up garden paths!
Sometimes they won't know it's a garden path until they get to a certain point...